From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:01:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:01:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: CT-CharGen.xls
References: <20020131153300.67351.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1aab3$a00f26e0$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

Thanks much Paul.

I haven't run it as many times as the others, and probably won't. It seems
to work fine for me. I'll let the others spec it out and make comments as
they are probably a way lot better than me.
I was wondering if the program would work easily as well if the data was
added for the other character types. If so, and you would like/need help
adding them to the program, I would be happy to try and help.

Jim C

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Walker" <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: CT-CharGen.xls


> Well, that's what I get for being impulsive.  The
> previous URL was for the actual file.  Here is a
> download page that should make it easier to get to.
>
> www.pslccl.com/walker/scifi/traveller/download/download.htm
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
> http://auctions.yahoo.com
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:14:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:14:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Alien
Message-ID: <20020131.161418.-162127.1.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:24:11 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> _Alien_ scared the hell out of me.  Wonderful horror film.

Ditto

> _Aliens_ rocked!  Nice to see a movie that got troopers right. 
> It had a fairly good story, and any movie were Paul Reiser
> gets his face chewed off by a nine foot tall killing machine
> is alright with me.

Ditto, and I still hate Paul R.

> _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work 
> overly well.

Seemed ok as far as the prisoners went, but the dog/alien super graphics
were over done.

> _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways... as a gamer movie
> it was pretty good.

Really good up to when Riply fell through the grate, then it sucked
royal. Seemed like the writers lost the script and had to higher
non-English speaking people off the street to write the ending in
English.

Disclaimer:
The above statement in no way implies prejudice to non English speaking
people, minorities, homeless, or anyone in particular.  Please accept the
above in jest, as intended, thank you.

You may drop your stones now.


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:39:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Request for information
References: <200201310826.g0V8QaD16825@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c1aabb$e7443de0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry 
> 3.  Any canonical adventures/supplements/articles/bits of information
> concerning the Trojan Reach *except* for Adventure 4: Leviathan?

Regency Sourcebook had some subsector maps.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:41:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:41:57 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
References: <200201310826.g0V8QaD16825@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c1aabb$e7ec16a0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: "Frank Pitt"
> This is what happened in Fiji during Rambouka's first coup.

Grrr...

That's Rabuka.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:56:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:56:14 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
References: <200201312030.g0VKUOH18863@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c1aabb$e88ac7a0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Anthony Jackson
> Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
> member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often
> control upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can
> pretty much tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.

Other hi-pop worlds in a subsector can be a serious problem, if they choose.
Fortunately, many subsectors, like Regina, have their four Kinunirs...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:00:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:00:01 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (actually long)
References: <200201310214.g0V2EkB02424@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c1aabb$e932a060$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   East Germany had revolts back in the `50's, IIRC, and not minor ones
> either.

These led to one of Brecht's best jokes.

The government issued a statement expressing their diappointment with the
people for the revolts.  Brecht commented that they should therefore dismiss
the people and elect a new one.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ine Givar (was:Nobles (long))
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>
>On 29 Jan 2002, at 13:30, Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I think.  Where can I find more detail one the Ine Givar, anyway?
>
>I wrote an article (non-canon) about them which was published in Pyramid
>in 1999, it should be in the archives there and JTAS

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Ine Givar means something like
"danger within" or "internal danger" in Dutch or Afrikaans.  The spelling is
a little different, too, like gevaar instead of givar.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Law level codes (was nobles etc)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>Sorry to quote myself, btu this is something I've wondered about a couple
of times. How useful
>are the guidelines about law levels in Traveller? It seems that places
where weapons are
>controlled but are otherwise fairly liberal get a bad press. Would anyone
say that Britain is on >the cusp of extreme law just because people aren't
allowed to wander about with guns? Seems a
>little unfair.
>
>I'm aware that the guide was written by (and no offense meant here)
Americans who see carrying
>weapons as a constiutional right which seems to have skewed in the
direction of weapons
>restrictions.
>
>Has anyone thought of an alternative index for measuring law level (say
complexity of
>legislature and need for lawyers to intrpret laws, police freedoms, travel
restrictions on
>citizens)

It's my understanding from the little black books that law level referred to
the general level of governmental intrusion into people's lives and the
general level of corruption.  Specifics about weapons were included because
the designers assumed that most players' foremost concern would be what
weapons their characters could carry.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>Naturally, it follows that the rich and powerful would want private
vehicles as well.
>It went from there. It goes without saying that all the vehicles are
electric and
>non-polluting.

Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>And 'Mongrels of Europe founding the New World' is just so much hogwash.
>The men who founded the US, for example, were almost exclusively landed
>gentry.

'Mongrels of Europe founding the New World' is indeed hogwash, but so is the
statement, "The men who founded the US, for example, were almost exclusively
landed gentry," unless "founded" is limited to mean, "organized the
rebellion, drafted the Constitution and other documents, and formed the
first governments."  If "founded" includes fighting for independence from
Great Britain, then all classes were heavily involved.

Ob Traveller, member states have a much greater level of sovereignty than
colonies, and, in my Traveller universe, the function of the Ministry of
Colonization is to facilitate the development of worlds with valuable
resources, and to monitor their governance until they become member states.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Britain
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:17:21PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>
>> Bear in mind that (according to the purely weapons based rules of
>> the MT referee's manual) Britain (even before 11/09/01) is between
>> law 8 and 9.  Weapons are prohibited even in the home and blades are
>> limited to under 3".  Have you ever been here?  It's not that bad
>> really.
>
>I dunno--I felt somewhat naked without my pocketknife.

3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
>
>[Note to those who want a real rip-roaring ugly-ass debate: The Zhos may be
>the first society in human history to actually know when a zygote/fetus
>becomes aware of it's own existence.]

"I suppose we _could_ know if the fetus started sending telepathic signals.
Of course, no telepath would ever probe the fetus' brain, not just out of
respect for its privacy, but out of concern for its well being.  This leaves
us with our own, pre-psionic, laws on abortion, which you can look up at
your leisure."

Shterbifriashav, Ambassador to the Court of the Duke of Regina, in a
conversation with a TNS reporter, ca. 1105

--Glenn




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>
>We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the
interaction
>between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
>nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of just what the
>subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system defense fleet
>would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).

I should pop over sometime.  This is one of my favorite subjects.

>Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
>member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often
control
>upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can pretty
much
>tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

I think the Imperium will let a world slide for a long while, using various
diplomatic approaches and sanctions.  If a high official like the duke
finally concludes that the world is just not ever going fulfill its
obligations, the Imperium will warn the world that failure to comply with
whatever by some date shall be deemed an act of insurrection.  If the world
does not comply by that date, the Imperial Navy will be brought in to make
an example of it.

Making an example probably would not involve massive destruction of the
world, its population, or its infrastructure.  It could be as simple as
interdiction.

In an invasion, any military forces in revolt will be destroyed or captured
and interned.  The local leadership, and, if necessary, the governmental
structure itself, will be replaced.  The Imperium may govern directly for a
time if required, first through the navy and then through creation of a
marquis.

The total process -- from first default on taxes to the actual appearance of
the navy -- could take decades.  My Imperium has not been in a hurry in a
very, very, long time.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>
>This just points out that the origional series and TNG were two entirely
>different animals. In the origional series, the crew went to starbases to
>spend their "pay".  In TNG the crew had never heard of money. I have a
>theory that they really worked for hours of credit in the holodeck...

"Hey, this shift's over; wanna go see what's happening in the wardroom?"

"No, thanks.  I gotta put in a few hours of overtime working on these plasma
couplings."

"The chief those don't need to be completed today. Come on, let's get a
beer."

"No, really, I need the O.T.  If I just put in six more hours this period,
I'll qualify for the next level on the holodeck program I'm running."

"What's that?  Girls of the Klingon Empire?"

"No, man, it's really sophisticated and historical stuff, from Earth before
the Eugenics Wars.  I'm at Hugh Hefner level three, and I can go to the
Larry Flynt level if I just stay on these plasma couplings for two more
nights."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: How brutal is the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: How brutal is the Imperium ( was: Nobles (actually long))
>
>This brings up an interesting (and Traveller related) question.  How brutal
>is the Imperium.  How far will it go to end an uprising, particularly a
>popular one.  What will it do to keep a world in the Imperial fold? Comment
>on how you handle it IYTU.

Like everything, it depends.  The less important the world and the less
danger of contagion perceived by the Imperium, the less the Imperium will
do.  It seems that worlds in the interior would be unlikely to seek disunion
in any event.  Worlds near the border might have a chance to survive as
independent states, and there might be a danger that one or two successful
breakaways would convince an entire subsector to become independent.  That's
what the Ine Givar are hoping to achieve with Efate and maybe a few other
worlds in the early 1100s.  Splitting off the Jewell cluster and the
Efate-Regina axis would give them an excellent base to develop their
society.  It would also serve the Zhodani by pushing the Imperial border
away.

That doesn't actually propose an answer to your question.  I think on the
extreme end, the Imperium will do whatever its people on the scene
(including the nobility) think necessary.  "My liege, we are very sorry to
report that we had to destroy those worlds in order to save them."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:14:27 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1aabd$ddcfab80$7cb1fea9@hppav>


> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:10:02 -0500
> From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Son of MT Ship Design question

<snip>

> OK, now I see what's being debated, and realize that, in fact, yes I did
> sidestep the issue nicely in my earlier post.  So does that "Max. CP
Input"
> line mean max. input before multiplying or max. CP including multiplier?
> Good damn question and as far as I can tell the rules are entirely
ambiguous
> on the matter.  I don't supposed DGP ever provided a clarification in
their
> 'Traveller Q&A' column?

I don't know. Not that I saw (though I didn't follow the magazines so I
wouldn't have seen it)

<snip>

> Where I got sidetracked and seem to disagree (at least semantically
> and/or theoretically) with both of you is regarding the 'greatest possible
> cost for a TL 15 ship.'  There IS no greatest possible cost for a ship,
>  it's just the greatest possible cost that can be handled by your
computer.
>  If your ship costs over MCr 666,666.666... then you just need to install
> another parallel computer to handle the extra required CPs (or, if you're
> feeling perverse, install a whole big mess of non-linked control panels).

To be fair I'm not actually sure that General Turokan is arguing that there
is
a firm maximum cost. I am because I am assuming that you get to use one
and only one computer at  a time. This is however a holdover from the CT
rules and not something that is explicitly stated in MT.  The closest I find
is
a statement that, "Spacecraft should have three computers; two are safety
backups." (MT Referee's Manual page 81) There is however no treatment
in the rules for or against the idea of computers working in parallel to
make
up any deficit in CPs. So YMMV

> So, for your theoretical 80,000,000 MCr TL 15 ship, by my interpretation
> of the rules you'd use 120 parallel Model/9 computers and 100,000,000 CP
> worth of control panel components, as opposed to your 1 Model/9
> computer and 100M CP worth of controls, or the General's apparent
> 'Can't Do It!' interpretation.  Am I understanding everything correctly
now?

I think so.

David Shayne


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:23:53 -0700
Subject: [TML] re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:13:50PM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020131182353.A14691@4dv.net>

On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:13:50PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
> Traveller's lack of instantaneous communication would make for
> better Star Trek type adventures.

Traveller's _everything_ would make for better Star Trek type
adventures...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, if nature abhors a vacuum, she must really have it in for your
brain.                                           --Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:21:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:21:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <00b401c1aabb$e88ac7a0$424d8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> 
> Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
> Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
> governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
> governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.

That's a viable answer, but leads to some problems:

1)  Not all governments are headed by hereditary nobles; for extreme examples,
the solomani rim has 3 hi-pop participatory democracies and 4 hi-pop
representative democracies).  Given that the subsector duke is a hereditary
position, while the head of government may not be, what happens when the
subsector duke and the head of government clash?

2)  What happens when the interests of the Imperium and the interests of a
single Hi-pop world conflict?  Even if it's a single leader, juggling hats can
be a problem.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:28:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:28:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
In-Reply-To: <003701c1aaa6$fc6bc9a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B87F2F45.22A8B%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: "daumen@mindspring.com" <rdaumen@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:31:11 -0500
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a

>
> Civil Law: The group of laws which deal with suing the pants off your
> fellow countryman. The higher this level, the bigger the punitive damages
> you can claim. Multiply this rating by 1d3 to determine the % tax taken by
> the government in such lawsuits. Lawyers may take a similar amount as
> their fee in successful cases. Ludicrous lawsuits allow for penalties
> other than financial, and/or total unlimited financial destruction, in
> case you were wondering.

Can citizens obtain legal insurance?

>
> 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
>     and enforced only by private means.

   1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
   2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.

> 3 - Private contracts enforceable by government agencies.
> 4 - Restitutive lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 5 - Restitutive lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
> 7 - Punitive lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 8 - Punitive lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.

   9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
 10 - Punitive strict liability.

> 11 - Ludicrous lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 12 - Ludicrous lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
>      Punitive lawsuits for material loss caused by negligence.
>      This is a lawyer's paradise, and an amber zone.
>
I really like the restitutive/punitive/ludricous steps.

Societies with 7+ will have trouble finding off-world trading parties, and
their overall trade should be below average.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:30:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:30:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B2E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <B87F2FB3.22A91%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 1/31/02 8:25 AM, DeGraff, Jesse at Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com wrote:

> Not that I know of, which I why I asked you to begin with ;)  Anyone else?
> 

I think the 1 mile size came from someone who pick one mile as an arbitrary
figure to calculate albedo.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:40:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:40:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B87F31FD.22A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 1/31/02 4:58 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
> pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
> plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 

Well, since you live in the highport too...

And you can still get drunk, override the automatics, and careen through the
streets running down pedestrians.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:01:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020131.170221.-146441.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C59F6F1.22AFA49D@sympatico.ca>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > CWO Ripley died (lept into a vat of molten metal while giving birth
> > to a Queen Alien) but was cloned for the fourth movie.
>
> I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, and I

SNIP

Well you always use this title:  Alien 3.1 - We Apologize for the previous
transmission

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:43:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:43:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet? Can its ground forces beat the
combined Unified Armies of the Sector? Can it beat the combined fleets of
the Domain? How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy? Can
it survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)

Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by a
powerful fleet.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:25:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012530345.2754.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet?

Probably not.  OTOH, needing to pull together the sector fleet to deal with a
tax dispute with a single world has its own problems; you're talking a major
mobilization, which is enormously expensive and may not be practical due to the
existence of other threats.

> Can its ground forces beat
> the combined Unified Armies of the Sector?
The combined jump-capable unified armies?  Quite possibly.

> How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  It
will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

> Can it survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)
Almost certainly.  Megacorps aren't positioned to remove their local assets
(withdrawing means forfeiting) and other effects of withdrawal are covered by
trade interdiction.
> 
> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
> say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
> let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by
> a powerful fleet.

Which required the combined military forces an entire domain to take out, and
basically crippled the Imperial fleet, allowing the remainder of the
Confederation to consolidate itself into a new government.

I'm not sure all of this is a huge problem either, but that wasn't really the
question I was asking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:21:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> >because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, and I
> >personally refuse to admit (to myself, at least) that the monstrosity
> >which called itself Alienzzzz (or whatever) even existed...
>
> _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
>
This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should stick to
prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

> _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...

As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:05:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:05:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] aging
Message-ID: <000001c1aacd$5729cf60$2f7de40c@loki>

When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
system.

I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
Fair!"
I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.

I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:17:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
Message-ID: <20020131.222114.-260707.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> > _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
> >
> This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should 
> stick to prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

Umm... I don't think Gibson's script was used for Alien^3.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> > > CWO Ripley died (lept into a vat of molten metal while giving birth
> > > to a Queen Alien) but was cloned for the fourth movie.
> >
> > I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> > because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, 
> 
> SNIP
> 
> Well you always use this title:  Alien 3.1 - We Apologize for the 
> previous transmission

Ah, but then I still have the problem that A4 has to admit that A3
exists, continuity-wise. 

A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
trauma like that since watching the original American release of
Highlander 2.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224743.00bca1a0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:12:58, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>I've advocated a sunset clause be appended to all laws so that they expire 
>after a given time, and must be reenacted.

My personal suggestion on this is that the number of laws allowed to be in 
effect at a given time be limited.  The limit ought to be relatively small, 
and very difficult or impossible to change.  This way, whenever the 
legislature decides that a new law is needed, they'll have to repeal an 
existing law first.  This keeps the number of useless laws under control, 
while ensuring that the legislature can keep themselves and the voters 
amused by chasing whatever silly idea is currently in vogue (after first 
repealing the previous silly idea).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was: T5)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224719.00bcad80@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:17:12, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>I was annoyed with QSDS for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

Good point - it would be nice to be able to design small craft.  QSDS (like 
the original Book 2) doesn't do this.  The main reason is that adding small 
craft would expand the tables greatly.  Small craft hulls would require 
additional maneuver drive and power plant options at a minimum.  The 
results would probably be less than satisfactory, but when (if?) I redesign 
QSDS to FF&S2, I can take another look at the problem.

>Temptation to throw out thruster plates entirely, and invent a volume-based
>drive.  Simplifies High Guard conversions greatly.

That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S.  Instead, I 
made the assumption that starships would need 10kN thrust per cubic meter, 
and then ensured (by careful selection of available components) that it was 
unlikely for a ship to mass significantly more than this.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>

On  Tue 29 Jan 2002 00:1:23, "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com> asked:
>What effect does this have on te Scout Service Travel Zones?

The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  Thus, 
the travel zones (are supposed to) reflect actual conditions, not an 
external requirement enforced by the Imperium.

>Are all open conflicts Amber/Red zoned?

No.  The Travellers' Aid Society posts zone classifications based on their 
assessment of the relative danger to travellers.  This is both somewhat 
subjective and takes time; thus a world with a conflict may not be posted 
as an amber or red zone immediately.

TAS Red Zones correspond to worlds that are either extremely dangerous, or 
are interdicted (being shot at by the Imperial Navy fits the TAS definition 
of 'extremely dangerous').  Worlds may be interdicted by either the Navy or 
the Scouts.  While all interdicted worlds are red zones, not all red zones 
are interdicted worlds - other highly dangerous conditions may warrant the 
classification.

TAS Amber Zones correspond to advisory areas - travellers should be on 
their guard, as situations may be dangerous.  Active conflicts (war) or 
other dangerous situations may (or may not) warrant this classification.  A 
war zone that does not significantly impact noncombatants may not be 
classified as Amber.

>I ask becasue I'm running MT and I've got a mercenry company setting up on 
>Dinom, are they limited to going and fighting (openly) in places that have 
>travel zones or can I chuck a small war anywhere I want?

You can chuck a small war anywhere you want.  If you start interfering with 
interstellar commerce, killing lots of civilians, or completely wrecking 
the infrastructure, you may acquire Imperial entanglements in the process.

On the other hand, a mercenary company might have a contract that specifies 
that hostilities be limited to certain areas, regions, or specific targets 
so as to avoid a TAS Amber Zone classification.  A mercenary contract may 
also have a bonus clause that provides a monetary bonus if the mercs manage 
to fulfill their mission without causing a TAS travel restriction to be 
placed on the world.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:48:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224800.00bcc2c0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.

OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?

Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as seperate 
>projects is a mistake.

I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS - 
it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224701.00bb8e80@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:39, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I used to design a handful of ships c. 1996, decided I didn't like the 
>'feel' of it, and have only looked back once or twice since.

Actually, that's fair enough.  My question was prompted by a number of 
things, not the least of which is that TMLers have expressed at least a 
little interest in a new (and fully FF&S2 compatible) version of QSDS.  It 
has occurred to me that Marc Miller will need a ship design system for 
T5.  A revised version of QSDS might just fill the bill, if I can get it to 
be relatively clean, smooth, and easy enough to use.

>My main memory of disaffection was that QSDS provided (and, thus, by 
>extension, required me to account for and keep track of) a level of 
>detailed information that seemed both unnecessary and undesirable for a 
>simple 'close enough' system

OK.  I can certainly see a case for rounding all values to (say) three 
significant figures.  It would also help to use a consistent column 
ordering (so that volume, power, cost, etc. are all listed in the same 
order in all tables).

The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS (like 
FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret) per 
100 dtons of displacement.  Instead, surface area is used to provide a 
tradeoff between various components - sensors, weapons, and power plants 
all require surface area.  For many designs (particularly civilian ships) 
this will not be an issue.  But, for the two extremes (very large ships and 
small craft) it is quite possible to run out of space.

The approach I took in QSDS was to track surface area.  The opposite 
approach would be the solution I took for mass (weight).  Rather than track 
it explicitly, the components available in QSDS are selected such that you 
cannot build a ship that is too massive for it's drives.  This solution is 
probably possible (but more difficult) for surface area as well.  It is 
likely to involve other odd exceptions, such as components that are 
incompatible with certain hulls - not because they don't fit, but because 
certain combinations of components and hulls might lead to a design that 
runs out of surface area.

>I think there should be a higher level of abstraction -- actual nuts and 
>bolts detail of the construction and components isn't necessary, just a 
>'close enough' approximation of ships' sizes, capabilities, and costs.

That's certainly another possibility.  This may be just the gearhead in me, 
but I prefer a design system that works in "real" units (such as dtons and 
Mw) rather than "spaces" and "energy points".

>My desired level 'compatability' from the simple-to-complex design systems 
>is that ships designed under each should have roughly equivalent (within 
>15% or so) sizes, capabilities, and costs -- not that we should be able to 
>freely interchange ships and components from one to the other.

Fair enough; my goal with QSDS was to get within 10%.  I had a secondary 
goal, which was to make it possible for people who had FF&S to design 
components to add to their own ships, without having to jump through a lot 
of hoops.  I felt this was important, since QSDS had an extremely limited 
selection of components.

>I'll let you know what I come up with (if you're still interested).

Sure!  I don't know if I will get time and motivation to fully revise QSDS, 
but it is looking that way right now - particularly if there is a chance 
that people will be willing and able to use it.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone 
>who shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of 
>course, I have friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a 
>stout.)

Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already 
had BayCon 2002?).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:46:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020201034609.45831.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!FIEND!!You uttered the Forbidden
Phrase!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

    MACessna[gasping forAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....]
  >>
--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I
> hadn't suffered psychic
> trauma like that since watching the original
> American release of
> Highlander 2.
> 
> 
> Perry


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 04:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:44:03 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: FSotSI
Message-ID: <17d.2f603df.298b7713@aol.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:

>It is considered broken in the sense that the ships are less than
>optimal designs that may not actually have been constructed using the
>vehicle design rules. (not sure on this last part as I haven't tried
>reverse engineering all of them. The ones I did try didn't seem to 
>come out right.)

 Editing was a big problem with this one. The crew numbers are whacked (none 
of the ships has a useful number of Cold Watch, Gunnery and Flight crew 
numbers are *always* the same), the CP limits were, IIRC, ignored, and, 
frankly, with no picture and not even a name, most of the ships are just not 
worth looking at.  The fleets discussion is a near-repeat from the Rebellion 
Sourcebook (and actually less helpful in some ways).

 While its conceptual ancestor (Supplement 9: Fighting Ships) was hardly 
error-free, it did include a picture and a bit of color text for almost every 
design, and everything had a *name*. As such, it added to the setting whether 
you ever used the ships in a fight or not. FSotSI, by comparison, lacked even 
that...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 04:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:57:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1aba6$109c8ae0$b16f510c@0tk0e>

>The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS (like
>FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret)
per
>100 dtons of displacement.  Instead, surface area is used to provide a
>tradeoff between various components - sensors, weapons, and power plants
>all require surface area.  For many designs (particularly civilian ships)
>this will not be an issue.  But, for the two extremes (very large ships
and
>small craft) it is quite possible to run out of space.

Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how many
you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints. power plants might
be tracked in some different way (with a table giving the maximum hull size
a given power plant can fit in? or the maximum power plant a given hull can
take?) or the same way.

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:22:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:22:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trojan Reach
Message-ID: <F134Q5of3tu3i0OTn8Q000254d4@hotmail.com>

Doug

I have a couple of references for the Trojan Reach other than Leviathan. One 
was in the second-last issue of Travellers' Digest (no 21?) -- an adventure 
set on one of the planets near the Imperial frontier. No doubt others can 
help you with this one.

Another was in the magazine "Australian Realms" -- a commando assault 
mission on a jungle planet in the Florian League. I can make a photocopy of 
it -- email me directly if you'd like one posted.

The Baraccai Technum (sp?) is based in Trojan Reach, isn't it...oh wait, 
wasn't that from Leviathan...?

MB

------------------------------Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:40:36 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>Subject: Request for 
information
Hey folks, need to pick your brains a little..  mmm.. brains...
1.  Is there a canonical listing for the names of subsectors of the Trojan
Reach Sector?  I have them for A, B, C, D, F, and G.
2.  _Atlas of the Imperium_ shows two alligience codes besides the
Imperium, Belgardian Sojorn, and the Aslan, fl and gl.
http://www.utzig.com/traveller/allegiance_codes.htm identifies these as the
Florian League and the Ginlenchy Concordance.  Any hard information?
3.  Any canonical adventures/supplements/articles/bits of information
concerning the Trojan Reach *except* for Adventure 4: Leviathan?Thanks.- --

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:27:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:27:50 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <182.2fd07aa.298b8156@aol.com>

>  Gold Pressed Latinum seems to be an international currency used outside
>  the Federation.  On several occassions, both Picard and Riker in TNG
>  remark that their society has no use for money.

No disrespect meant for the man -- I salute him for several things things he 
accomplished and respect him -- but Roddenberry got a little preachy on 
certain topics, especially later in his life. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:31:50 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F196QTYkWSzsVA2aiVk0001b566@hotmail.com>

Anthony

The quick answer runs like this: high-population worlds have more to gain 
from Imperial membership than from independence. In a word: trade. Your 
high-population world *could* tell the Navy to take a flying leap.

Their next visitor is a corsair fleet. And the next. Merchants take their 
business somewhere less risky. Trade collapses, economy fails, planetary 
government changes to one in favour of rejoining the Imperium.

MB

------------------------------Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:19:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Question : power of the Imperium
We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the 
interaction
between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of just what the
subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system defense fleet
would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).
Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often 
control
upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can pretty much
tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).
Given the noninterventionist rules of the Imperium (and the utter lack of
consistency in sub-Imperial government), I'm inclined to view the Imperial
government as rather weak, with power concentrated more in the hands of
individual worlds than in the hands of the Imperium; think of the Imperium 
as
NATO plus the EU (or the WTO).  OTOH, the feel of the game doesn't suggest 
that
the Imperium is all that weak (though this may be because most Traveller 
games
don't occur on major worlds; the Imperium can fail to have much control over
Hi-pop worlds and still pretty thoroughly intimidate lower population 
worlds).

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:36:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:36:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
Message-ID: <fd.13184d82.298b8365@aol.com>

> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
>  nobles?

And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are often 
not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.

Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are 
clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic 

"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the pins 
fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trent Smith)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:59:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question (long and dry, alas)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001701c1aae5$c0d37200$107379a5@trentfs>

 generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
<a big example design that involved choosing which computer to install based
on its 'Maximum CP Input' entry>

This time yesterday I would've agreed that this example was correct.  Today
(after having spent the last hour or so digging through books and doing
calculations) I'm pretty sure it's not.

The rules themselves give no clear definition of what "Maximum CP Input"
means -- in fact, it's never mentioned or explained anywhere except that one
table.  Truly an enigma (or at least an editorial flub).

Looking through the entire run of DGP's 'Traveller Q&A' (TD9-MTJ4) for
clarification didn't help much.  The two possibly significant mentions were:

1) [in answer to question roughly "how do CP work?"] "Think of the things
you install on your craft as 'hungry' for control point food.  The control
panels, multiplied by the computer, provide control point food to the
craft -- they "feed" the craft, which is hungry for control points. If the
control panel output times the computer multiplier does not totally satisfy
the control point hunger of the craft, the craft will not work right -- it
is out of control.
  "The input CP is the maximum control panel input the computer can handle.
If you try to connect too many control panel CPs to the input side of the
computer, you will overload it and burn it out" (Joe Fugate, "Q&A," MTJ4, p.
81).

This supposed 'explanation' is frustratingly ambiguous, but tends (at least
IMO) to lend vague support to the notion that it's a 'before multiplication'
maximum. YMMV.

2) "The _Regal_ needs nearly 6 million control points in control panels and
computer equipment.  The best computer we can install is a tech 14 model
8/fib, which multiplies the CP input from our control panels by 95.  To see
how much CP input into the computer we need in order to get 5,701,044.4
control points out, we can divide the 5,701,044.4 by the computer's
multiplier of 95, giving us 6,011 CP needed as input."(Joe Fugate, "A
MegaTraveller Starship Design Example," TD13, pp. 44)

The "maximum CP input" figure is conspicuous in its absence from this
example.  While, alas, it wouldn't affect the calculation either way (the
max. CP input for a model 8/fib is 50 million), it may be telling that the
max. CP input for a model 7/fib is 5 million -- less than the ship's
required 5.7M.  By the Turokan method, this (TL 14) ship's only choices for
computer would be model 8 or 8/fib -- anything less wouldn't have the
capacity to handle the ship's CP load.  If this had been a crucial
consideration in the example ship's design, I'd think Joe Fugate would have
at least bothered to mention it.  Once again IMO this tends to vaguely
support the 'before multiplication' interpretation.

Neither of these are too convincing, but what was (at least for me) was the
results of a couple of quick back-calculations on standard designs from the
Imperial Encyclopedia, specifically the Type R subsidized merchant and the
Gig.  Both are pricy high tech designs with shoddy computers installed (Type
R: TL 15, MCr 67.5, computer 1/bis; Gig: TL 14, MCr 13.78, computer 0).

Computer 0 has a CP multiplier of 5 and a mx. CP input of 500.  The Gig has
a CP requirement of (roughly) 1900.  Per the IE writeup it has installed a
headsup display and 282 'holodynamic links' (aside: in yet another apparent
editorial gaffe, ALL the standard ships have 'holodynamic links' even though
such a thing doesn't exist -- there's 'dynamic link' and 'holographic link'
but no 'holodynamic').  Assuming holodynamic to be dynamic we get an
installed CP total of 332, multiplied by the computer = 1660, which is
probably about right.

Computer 1/bis has a CP multiplier of 15 and a max. CP input of 7500.  The
Type R has a CP requirement of approx. 10,000.  Per IE it has headsup x 3
and holodynamic x 403 -- total CP 553, multiplied = 8295, again probably
about right.

Note that in both of these cases, the required CP of the craft greatly
exceed the 'max CP input' of the computers, but the number of (unmultiplied)
CP from installed control panels fall within it.  While this doesn't settle
the issue 100% (it's more common that not for published designs to be at
least slightly broken, and not uncommon at all for them to be REALLY
broken), it does lend pretty strong evidence to the notion that the 'max CP
input' entry is supposed to apply to CP from installed control panels BEFORE
they are multiplied by the computer. QED.

So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs are broken and
need to be redone?  No, it just means that a lot of them probably could've
gotten away with smaller computers than he installed.  Not that installing
the cheapest or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But it does
allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better in the end.

Trent



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:49:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <f2.1609ac74.298b8682@aol.com>

A: Anarchy is great!
B: Anarchy sucks!
A: Does not!
B: Does too!

etc.

Can we agree to disagree on this one (and take it to the chat list)? These 
discussions are word for word _identical_ to ones I used to have to listen to 
30 years ago, and I think neither side is going to convince the other. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:58:33 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F188PeWnEUDS6cRXLWU0001031c@hotmail.com>

The Imperial Navy redzoning/interdiction is the real question, IMO, and 
'serious effects' (in an economic sense) could happen very quickly. A market 
collapse could happen in hours, with decline in employment and investment 
happening very soon after.

Typical timeframe in 20th C. economic sanctions is roughly 18 months for 
real hardship to begin biting, but mass sackings and flight of capital could 
begin with the market collapse. Anyone with money and mobility goes 
elsewhere, or into the illicit/black economy.

Economic sanctions are a last resort, anyway -- the Imperium can employ much 
cheaper and more subtle (ie covert) means of ensuring the loyalty of a 
high-population world.

By last resort, I mean the last resort *before* military action. All the 
foregoing discussion of fleet actions, marine assault etc. would only come 
when everything else has failed.

***************
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Question : power of the ImperiumTerry Carlino writes:

>How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  
It
will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:09:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>

> > _Alien_ scared the hell out of me.  Wonderful horror film.
>  
>  Ditto

I'll agree with this. Nice flick.

>  > _Aliens_ rocked!  Nice to see a movie that got troopers right. 
>  > It had a fairly good story, and any movie were Paul Reiser
>  > gets his face chewed off by a nine foot tall killing machine
>  > is alright with me.

Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little 
too fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity to 
leave _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN 
THE FLIPPING RAMP. Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to 
accomplish the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them 
up to their own devices."

Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 
2300 A.D.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:11:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:11:55 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
Message-ID: <157.8322666.298b8bab@aol.com>

> 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
>  that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.

Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from butterflies?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:16:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:16:42 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aging
Message-ID: <152.82be1e0.298b8cca@aol.com>

> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>  Fair!"
>  I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>  more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>  jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab

I suspect we (GDW) would probably change a few things if we were doing it 
using the wisdom accumulated by being over 50 . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:58:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:58:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <f2.1609ac74.298b8682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>



I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
made up a symbol?

Tim Reynolds
With more gasoline 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 07:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 02:30:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: aging
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> Subject: aging
> 
> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"
> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
> 
> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
> 

	The same issue was discussed on the T20 playtest boards. The answer was
Marc said it was a game balance issue. Basically, he wanted to ensure
characters were still young enough to play PCs by the time they mustered
out... 

	Note: You can serve more than 6 terms because of the mandatory
reenlistment.

	So if you are really excited to play someone your own age, ignore the
rule. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 07:42:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:42:50 +0800
Subject: [TML] FSotSI
In-Reply-To: <3C59D8A0.30659A9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEBNDPAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looking at the identical "errors" on several designs I came up with the
theory that they had been designed using a spreadsheet which used overtyping
of cells to get the stats. Unfortunately some of the cells were not
amended - just a theory mindyou.

I personally found this book more useful as a source for large TNE vessels.
If you have time have a look at my Titan (BI-15) class dreadnought. Follow
the links from the bottom of
www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/Banners/alstonbat.html

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:21:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:21:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: aging
In-Reply-To: <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>
Message-ID: <200202010321180498.401F58B9@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>> Fair!"
>> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
>> 
>> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
>> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
>> 
>
>	The same issue was discussed on the T20 playtest boards. The answer was
>Marc said it was a game balance issue. Basically, he wanted to ensure
>characters were still young enough to play PCs by the time they mustered
>out... 
>
>	Note: You can serve more than 6 terms because of the mandatory
>reenlistment.
>
>	So if you are really excited to play someone your own age, ignore the
>rule. 

I think they are more refering to the effects of aging rather than the term limits imposed. CT is pretty hard on aging. T20 still has aging effects, but they are less than experienced in CT, you lose fewer points on abilities that have a greater value range (3-18 vs 2-12)

The term limits are artificial and serve as mentioned to push the PCs out into the adventuring universe before 'true' retirement. There are plenty of present day examples of service personnel who have served far more than 7 terms of service, and no reason not to allow them in Traveller if the Referee deems it appropriate.

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:21:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020201.002200.-2751.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Trent 

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:59:59 -0800 "Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
> 
> This time yesterday I would've agreed that this example was
> correct. Today (after having spent the last hour or so digging
> through books and doing calculations) I'm pretty sure it's not.
> 
> So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs
> are broken and need to be redone?  No, it just means that a
> lot of them probably could've gotten away with smaller
> computers than he installed.  Not that installing the cheapest
> or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
> choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But
> it does allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better
> in the end.

Thank you for your input. There are 50+ ships needing other changes, as I
found flaws in other areas. I did have nearly 75 ships before my big
crash Oct 30th 2000, but the latest and biggest were lost. I was working
on 20,000 dtons, but now have 1 5,000 dton as my largest.

I am not a gearhead, and since I only have MT, my understanding of
designs can be scrutinized by all as one-track, by the book, step 1,2,3
in style. I understand where you're coming from, and your kind remarks.
The broadening of options, even in just this one point somewhat fry's my
brain. I prefer limitations - choose only 1,2, or 3, not take your pick
of 1 to 20.

TOO MANY CHOICES - BRAIN OVERLOAD, MUST SEEK HELP!

ERROR, ERROR, ERROR, CPU NOT CONFIGURED FOR STRESS!

MUST SEEK - ERROR - ANYLIZE - ERROR - STERILIZE!

ERROR, ERROR, I AM NOMAD - STERILIZE!

STERIL.....


Brig. General Turokan
Commander
8th Interstellar Heavy Infantry Division
Solomoni Alliance, TL-G
Etaboruk, Freedom sector

________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:12:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:12:26 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 20:43, Terry Carlino wrote:

> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet? Can its ground forces beat the
> combined Unified Armies of the Sector? Can it beat the combined fleets of the
> Domain? How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy? Can it
> survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)

Can it beat the Full Sector Fleet? Possibly, the odds are not in its favour, 
but it can give it a darn good run for its money and inflict enough damage 
to leave it crippled for decades. Can it's ground forces defeat the combined 
Unified Armies? Quite likely they can. And the application of these levels of 
force in not a trival task.

> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would say
> that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And let's not
> forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by a powerful
> fleet.

And lets not forget the cost of the Battle of Terra either. Bottom line is that 
while the Imperium can muster sufficent force to subdue a single high pop 
high tech world, doing so requires a massive effort and leaves the entire 
sector reeling for decades after. So virtually any option is preferable.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:32:09 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <01d301c1ab03$53025d40$46cad63f@customer>

> Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:
> >
> >Has anyone else actually read the detailed descriptions of Zhodani
culture
> >and history? IIRC the thought police are a second stage. There is
something
> >along the lines of a careers guidance advisor on reaching maturity and
they
> >match people's abilities and interests to the gaps and availabilities in
> >the labour market. Even if the thought police do get called in they can
> >recommend that someone have a lifestyle/career change to make them more
> >happy.
> >
>
> Certainly.  And all of the above will occur within the guidelines
> laid down by the Nobles, for the benefit of the Nobles.
>
> Counselor: "We had another Artist today.  We directed him towards
> Economic Forecasting, that's the best use for him.  We'll have
> to adjust him periodically to keep him content with the position,
> though...as we all know, imagination among Proles is best directed
> towards interpolating and projecting known data...left to his own
> devices, who knows what dangerous fantasies this poor Prole might
> have developed."
>
> Zhodani society isn't the worst way to rule people, not at all.
> I think it's an interesting development of a society that is both
> human and alien at the same time, and the alienness makes it
> hard to apply moral codes to.  Is happiness sufficient?  What
> about self-determination?  Or are both culturally constructed
> illusions anyway?
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet

I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled and
unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

John Scarlett



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:38:02 +1300
Subject: [TML] FSotSI
In-Reply-To: <3C59D8A0.30659A9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3C5B0ABA.23402.49E8E7@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 17:52, David Shayne wrote:

> It is considered broken in the sense that the ships are less than
> optimal designs that may not actually have been constructed using the
> vehicle design rules. (not sure on this last part as I haven't tried
> reverse engineering all of them. The ones I did try didn't seem to 
> come out right.)

How about also that the fuel quantities listed for some ships are cut and paste 
jobs from some others and are clearly way off? How about that the prices of 
some ships seem very, very strange? Also IIRC the crews on some seem odd, too.

Mind you it's not a lot worse than CT's _Fighting Ships.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:59:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0FCD.955.5DBD3C@localhost>

On 1 Feb 2002, at 1:09, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little too
> fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity to leave
> _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN THE
> FLIPPING RAMP.

That scene had me and my friends hopping up and down shouting "Who Gave you 
permmision to land!", and "If the Aliens don't get you the court martial will!" 
We were less than popular with the other movie goers.

> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.
 
> Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 2300
> A.D.

Never would've guessed. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:59:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 22:47, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote: >I
> will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone >who
> shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of >course, I have
> friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a >stout.)
> 
> Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
> another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
> suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
> Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already had
> BayCon 2002?).

Those are mighty small bottles, then (or mighty big gallons). Assuming stubbies 
of 335mL each you're looking at 67 Litres of fluid, or about 15 Imperial 
Gallons (which is in turn about 18 of those little ity-bity gallons used in the 
US). 

I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:22:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020201042258.00e53e70@buffnet.net>

>And lets not forget the cost of the Battle of Terra either. Bottom line is
that 
>while the Imperium can muster sufficent force to subdue a single high pop 
>high tech world, doing so requires a massive effort and leaves the entire 
>sector reeling for decades after. So virtually any option is preferable.

Keep in mind one thing Gentlemen...

The battle for Terra was not against Earth alone, but against the entire
Solomani Sphere...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:47:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:47:33 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>
Message-ID: <014d01c1ab00$63a211c0$b966893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: <tim@premier.net>


> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and
> made up a symbol?

As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of comment
riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. It is about
having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying anarchists.

--
Fabian
It ain't the money, it's the job title.
It ain't the job title, it's what you do.
It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.
That's what it's all about.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:24:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:24:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012504748.8505.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020131094626.006b8388@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020201042440.00e47148@buffnet.net>

Hello Anthony,
  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.
  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
Imperium wants to see emplaced.
  The next question of course, would be to determine what the standard
operating proceedures are with respect to a world in revolt.  If the time
lag between the Imperial court and the location of the problem can amount
to year's worth of time, clearly, the local government at the scene must be
empowered with what ever it takes to bring the errant world back into line.
  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.
  What makes this a major issue is the fact that if one world can get away
with it, more worlds can do the same.  In a way, it wouldn't be unlike the
first states of the south telling President Lincoln that they were seceding
from the United States.

Ok, having outlined all of that - here is my take on the issue:

1) a diplomatic envoy would be empowered to negotiate with the government
of Trin informing them that this would be considered an act of Treason
against the Imperial Court and carries a hefty penalty

2) Any world engaging in acts of treason will have to be dealt with as
traitors in order to stem the potential of ennerving other world nations to
secede from the Imperium.  As a consequence, there *will* be war.  The
death toll on both parts of the Combatant's sides will be horrendous.

After that?  Assuming that Trin still engages in withholding their taxes
etc?  I can see no choice on the Imperial's side but to appeal to *all*
nearby naval forces and such to engage in putting down what may be the
beginning of a successful rebellion.  Putting it in medieval terms - if the
peasants revolt, all nobles are required to help on the premise that a
rebellion by serfs that spreads will destroy society.

          Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 10:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:47:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>


--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:

<< hadn't suffered psychic trauma like that since watching the original
American release of Highlander 2.>>

Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
television show.

As a Highlander fan (the first movie is on my list of movies I'll watch
any place, any time) I cried when I'd realized I'd spent hard-earned
money to see the second movie when it came to theaters.



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 11:21:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:21:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Anthony,
>  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
>things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
>that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
>were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
>taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.

It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).

>  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
>powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
>of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
>Imperium wants to see emplaced.

Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.

>  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
>Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
>Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
>incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
>placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.

Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
seem to be rather insular.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 11:43:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:43:17  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <JDEEFJLEDCMFDBAA@angelfire.com>

Mark Urbin writes:
> But these Marines are on leave.  Really.  Honest.
> Bring the troop ships in under escort and place 'em in their assigned 
> parking orbits.
> Make sure they get paid right before shuttling down.
> 
> They are not there to collect taxes.  Far from it.  They are there to spend
>  Imperial credits and boost the local economy.

Yeah.  How is this relevant?  Trin will tell them 'ok, land at
>location X', and
>if they make trouble, arrest them.  Trin's imperial taxes are several
>_trillion_ credits per year, troublemaking marines are unlikely to >manage a
>billion credits in damage before being squashed.

*Would* the 3I allow Trin to have a SDB fleet that thouroughly outguns the Imperial one. Surely that comes under the heading of "potentially detrimental to interstellar trade" and thus would be nipped in the bud befrore it became an issue?

I really can't see any Duke or Archduke thinking, "oh, there's a system building a huge fleet. Shall I deal with it now or shall I wait for them to try to overthrow me? Hmm, tough choice".

OTOH, they might. I can see a few ways that Trin could be brought into line without using military might.
 
Trade embargoes. Just Red Zone the entire system. Cut them off from the 3I. They'll miss getting news of the outside world, all those foodstuffs that Trin has to rely on, not to mention all the raw materials Trin needs for its industry. The populace might get antsy very quickly if deprived of "necessities"

Another ploy might be the "coincidental" increase in piracy in the system once Imperial protection (which is waht those Cr trillions pay for) is removed (hmm, why do you think that the Imperium issues all those letters of marque?)
  
Just some thoughts off the top of my head, and *I* haven't had hundreds of years of practice at dealing with the problem.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:18:02 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
In-Reply-To: <00b301c1aabb$e7ec16a0$424d8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Alan Bradley wrote :
> > From: "Frank Pitt"
> > This is what happened in Fiji during Rambouka's first coup.
> 
> Grrr...
> 
> That's Rabuka.

What, do you like him or something ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:18:01 +1300
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Daumen wrote :
> This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William
> Gibson should stick to prose, which is ultimately
> proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

William Gibson didn't write Alien 3.

The original director, Vincent Ward, wrote it.

Then, the moneymen argued with Ward, who is damn good moviemaker,
and would probably have succeeded in what he was trying to do, so
he quit, and the movie was left to some hacks to finish off.

> > _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...
>
> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?

As a Traveller movie. The crew of thee freighter acte exactly lke
player chacaters, except that they didn't move quite as fast as
player characters would have done in getting off the military
ship.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:21:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:21:36  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <AOOKHELIKDOFDBAA@angelfire.com>

>Hello Anthony,
>  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
>things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
>that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
>were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
>taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.

It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).

>  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
>powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
>of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
>Imperium wants to see emplaced.

Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.

>  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
>Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
>Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
>incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
>placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.

Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
seem to be rather insular.


I really think that the Imperium would go a long way not to get involved in open battle. I think they can make pretty uncomfortable for Trin without pointing a single gun. I think that they can lean fairly hard iin terms of financial threats. after all it is a financial institution more than anything else. 

They can freeze the assets of anyone from Trin. That's going to make a lot of people very poor very quickly. Not only that but think of ma and pa back at home when their only son is suddenly penniless because the government has refused to pay its taxes. There might be a groundswell of people thinking it's not such a good idea after all.

They could freeze the assets of anyone still dealing with Trin after the order has gone out. This means that the megacorps will clear out fairly fast.

They can send in pirates to make life very difficult for in-system trade. It doesn't matter how powerful the SD fleet is, tthese people are experts at getting out of their way.

They could quarantine the system such that anyone leavign is arrested unless they can come up with a good reason for being let off (like being one of the megacorps being pulled out). In addition any vessels found to be trading with Trin could be destroyed.

Again, the Imperium could probably think of another few ways of making life very difficult for the errant system. Think of it as a death by a thousand cuts kind of policy: make life a war of attrition for the natives and eventually they'll just give up the ghost and come back.

Either that or they'll try to break out and then they're fighting on *your* turf.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:39:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:39:23 -0500
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1ab1d$7aaacde0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> From: knightsky@juno.com
>
> > > _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
> > >
> > This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should
> > stick to prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.
>
> Umm... I don't think Gibson's script was used for Alien^3.
>
That's right!  I guess the screenplay made about the same impression on me
as the movie.  IIRC the the bar codes on the prisoner's heads was his idea.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 13:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:38:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>

Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!

Our Two Main weapons are:
Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!

Damn!

Our Three Main weapons are:...

At 03:38 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > But these Marines are on leave.  Really.  Honest.
> > Bring the troop ships in under escort and place 'em in their assigned
> > parking orbits.
> > Make sure they get paid right before shuttling down.
> >
> > They are not there to collect taxes.  Far from it.  They are there to spend
> >  Imperial credits and boost the local economy.
>
>Yeah.  How is this relevant?  Trin will tell them 'ok, land at location 
>X', and
>if they make trouble, arrest them.  Trin's imperial taxes are several
>_trillion_ credits per year, troublemaking marines are unlikely to manage a
>billion credits in damage before being squashed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 13:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:30:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
In-Reply-To: <157.8322666.298b8bab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201082919.00b5d098@mail.charter.net>

At 01:11 AM 2/1/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
> >  that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.
>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from butterflies?

Either way, it was still probably illegal under British law...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 14:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:31:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: Zhodani
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201162523.00bf7440@ee.tut.fi>

GypsyComet wrote:

 >  All children of a Noble or Intendant will be dropped by one SOC
 > except the designated heir, except that Intendants don't have heirs
 > unless their children test high enough to be Intendants in their own
 > right.

	Hmm? I thought that the Zhodani nobility is not inheritable at
	all and can only be gained though personal qualification. The
	inheritable noble rank is something that exists only in the
	decadent Imperium.

	IMTU all Zhodani citizen are considered to be born as proles,
	and nobility must be gained. I consider that the terms "noble"
	and "prole" are just best-fit anglic words used to describe two
	aspects in Zhodani society. Zhodani society has very little in
	common with the Imperial-style neo-feudalism.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:29:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:29:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>

>  I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
>  made up a symbol?

It was formally adopted by the Grey Council of Elders at the Synod of 1882.

Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to 
respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings under 
the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:37:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020201042258.00e53e70@buffnet.net>
References: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201073707.006b88ec@mindspring.com>

At 04:22 AM 02/01/02 -0500, you wrote:

>The battle for Terra was not against Earth alone, but against the entire
>Solomani Sphere...

Good point!  By the time of the invasion, the Imperial commanders had
fought through several subsectors, and needed to end the bloodiest war in
Imperial history!

Think Desert Storm.  The Imperium can bering up fleets from Deneb, mass
Marine Force Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops
from the UA Mora and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their
leisure, all the time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the
SDBs.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:50:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <014d01c1ab00$63a211c0$b966893e@fabian>
References: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075021.006bbb68@mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 02/01/02 -0000, you wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <tim@premier.net>
>
>
>> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and
>> made up a symbol?
>
>As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of comment
>riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. It is about
>having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying anarchists.

True story.

There is a store on Haight St called the Anarchisc Collective Bookstore.
Neat place, sometimes good to find the kind of books Ken Hite is so fond
of.  I'm in there one day, and need to find out something.  Neo-punker at
the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say "Manager?  That isn't
very anarchisitc, is it?"

She didn't get it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:26:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:26:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201072615.006b5da8@mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 02/01/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>
><< hadn't suffered psychic trauma like that since watching the original
>American release of Highlander 2.>>
>
>Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
>bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
>was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
>television show.

In the end, there should have been only one.  (and the series)
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:52:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:52:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075258.006b5450@mindspring.com>

At 10:47 PM 01/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone 
>>who shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of 
>>course, I have friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a 
>>stout.)
>
>Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
>another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
>suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
>Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already 
>had BayCon 2002?).

BayCon is the end of May.  I say if I get my new job (which will pay forty
grand a year minimum) I will fly someone next year.  

Actually, I'm sort of happy we aren't having the Traveller Party this year,
as BayCon seems to be suffering from a set of massive ego problems and
staff changes.

Note: Reasonable means from anywhere in North America for the cheapest
prices we can find.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:55:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:55:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

IIRC, the entire basis of most of the versions of
trade and commerce rules indicate that the reason
trade works so well is that hi pop worlds tend to be
(A) higher tech and (B) less able to sustain
themselves.

That being the case, I think after an acceptable 
"grace" period, the initial step would be to place
travel and trade interdictions against the world.  It
would be VERY difficult for world with the population
of Trin to survive long on the BMTFN (Black Market
Tramp Freighters Network).

And since the percentage of taxes are considerably
higher, the Imperium would "police" the interdiction
enough as to make any Black Market Trader very leary
of trying to make the Trin run.  Yes, the profits are
high, but the risk is higher.

What would follow is seige.  I would expect
negotiating envoys to be allowed through to try to
come to an agreement.  After a given time, if it
becomes obvious that the government will not comply,
the Navy moves in.

The strength of the local defenses will be factors as
to the length of time to allow the seige to continue. 
For large "Trin" sized defense forces, it may be
necessary to wait until several years for maintenance
failures to help decimate the fleet, but I would
imagine the interdiction would work in most cases.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:47:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:47:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <182.2fd07aa.298b8156@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201074713.006b8408@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:

>No disrespect meant for the man -- I salute him for several things things he 
>accomplished and respect him -- but Roddenberry got a little preachy on 
>certain topics, especially later in his life. 

Really.  It is interesting that TNG got notably better after his death.
Human conflict was allowed to emerge on the Enterprise.  
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:44:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201074448.006b85b8@mindspring.com>

At 01:09 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:

>Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little 
>too fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity
to 
>leave _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN 
>THE FLIPPING RAMP. Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to 
>accomplish the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave
them 
>up to their own devices."

I don't know... overconfidence, poor leadership, an enemy that attacks with
no warning and complete ferocity while you are mostly unarmed.. coming
apart in those circumstances is about what I'd expect.

As for the ramp, somehow, I don't think that landing craft has a latrine
installed, y'know?

>Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 
>2300 A.D.

So I noticed.

Douglas Berry, Sargant-chef
Tanstaafl Free Legion, Aurore
2300-2302
"Kafers Killed, Virgins Rescued*
*Not in orginal condition"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:32:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:32:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012530345.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201073242.006b7294@mindspring.com>

At 06:25 PM 01/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Terry Carlino writes:
>> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
>> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet?
>
>Probably not.  OTOH, needing to pull together the sector fleet to deal with a
>tax dispute with a single world has its own problems; you're talking a major
>mobilization, which is enormously expensive and may not be practical due
to the
>existence of other threats.

Well, first of all, looking at Trin, I think their first problem is going
to be food.  10 billion people and a tainted atmosphere?

Then of course, their economy goes bye-bye.  An Imperial blockade stopping
and seizing all ships to be found to be carrying goods from Trin, or with
evidence on their ship's log of having been there, will stop imports and
exports cold.

>> Can its ground forces beat
>> the combined Unified Armies of the Sector?
>The combined jump-capable unified armies?  Quite possibly.
>
>> How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
>It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  It
>will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

The Imperium has time, but it doesn't take that long to draw the fleets
from the surrounding sectors.

>> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
>> say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
>> let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by
>> a powerful fleet.
>
>Which required the combined military forces an entire domain to take out, and
>basically crippled the Imperial fleet, allowing the remainder of the
>Confederation to consolidate itself into a new government.

Of course, the Solomani also "packed the homeworld almost shoulder to
shoulder with troops."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:59:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <fd.13184d82.298b8365@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>

At 12:36 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:
>> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
>>  nobles?
>
>And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are often 
>not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.
>
>Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are 
>clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic 
>
>"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the pins 
>fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"

Played in a 5FW based game once, and we were facing Zho Guards on Efate.
We had gotten sick of that trick, so we fooled them.

We took a large number of psi-shields and uniforms from dead comrades, and
made dummies, and made positions for them.. even armed them.  (We had
learned from experience that most of the CG seers weren't that good - a
bone the Referee threw us)

The Mind-raper scans, sees a platoon sized position with everybody on
guard, a few people around a cook pot, etc.  Passes the word to the assault
team.  Thet zot in...

... and get wiped out by our preset explosives.  It's amazing what 20kg of
TDX will do to a Zho platoon.  We then overran the Zho jumping-off point,
and smashed it before they could react.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
  http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:21:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com> <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> > Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
> > another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
> > suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
> > Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already had
> > BayCon 2002?).
> 
> Those are mighty small bottles, then (or mighty big gallons). Assuming stubbies 
> of 335mL each you're looking at 67 Litres of fluid, or about 15 Imperial 
> Gallons (which is in turn about 18 of those little ity-bity gallons used in the 
> US). 

Ah, his error was in the number of cases required.  A case of beer is
24 bottles; 200 bottles would be 8 cases, a 6-pack and two singles.
Given that a 5 gallon batch of beer (initial size; after lossage it's
about 4 1/2) produces about two cases of beer, that would be four
batches and change.

Looked at another way, 200 bottles are 24 oz., which are 18.75
gallons, which is just over four batches.

Our gallons are small because a gallon is 8 pounds of water.  Thus a
pint's a pound, a cup's 8 oz. and a fluid oz. is an ounce of water.
We preserve the original doubling-and-halving flow of the system.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:41:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:41:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C5AC52A.4090403@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:

 
> A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
> trauma like that since watching the original American release of
> Highlander 2.

Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my 
screams as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the snack 
bar didn't disturb you much...

Man That was a bad movie, and not even good bad like 'Santa vs the 
Martians' but really bad bad, like 'Waiting for Guffmann'...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:38:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:38:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201075021.006bbb68@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020201163848.63567.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  SPLORT!!![coffee everywhere].......

      MA[kaffkaff]Cessna
  >>
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> True story.
> 
> There is a store on Haight St called the Anarchisc
> Collective Bookstore.
> Neat place, sometimes good to find the kind of books
> Ken Hite is so fond
> of.  I'm in there one day, and need to find out
> something.  Neo-punker at
> the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say
> "Manager?  That isn't
> very anarchisitc, is it?"
> 
> She didn't get it.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:34:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:34:23 -0700
Subject: [TML] aging
References: <000001c1aacd$5729cf60$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3C5AC38F.5060303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

n2sami wrote:

> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"


Young punk!


> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.


Remember all those 'injury' rolls you made during chargen? Do you think 
that you would need a cane today if you hadn't been jumping out of 
PGA's? :-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:39:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:39:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <RELAY2wjWzyyLwDKCG4000018b0@relay2.softcomca.com>

LKW <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:

> > 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London,
> > I felt so naked that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a
> > guy on the street.
>
> Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense
> from butterflies?

Defense from.  Have you *seen* the size of those suckers at
Kew Gardens?  Man, I suspect they carry of livestock! :^)

Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
on *me*!) :^)

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:43 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3c5ccadb.7418031@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
>Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  

According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.
See the definition in "Library Data" in the main rule book, and also
some mentions in at least one of the Planetary Survey books. 

I don't know if this is a change to canon, a horrible mistake, or
something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator
actually visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and
drinks, persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in
question)...

Stephen



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:41 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3c5bc5bd.6107545@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:

>Our Two Main weapons are:
>Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
>Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
>A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!

I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
Tigresses...

Stephen
(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
adding insult to injury)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:12:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:12:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <3C5AC52A.4090403@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201120546.00ac6b00@mail.charter.net>

At 09:41 AM 2/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
>>trauma like that since watching the original American release of
>>Highlander 2.
>Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my screams 
>as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the snack bar 
>didn't disturb you much...
>Man That was a bad movie, and not even good bad like 'Santa vs the 
>Martians' but really bad bad, like 'Waiting for Guffmann'...

Oh come on, at least "Waiting for Guffmann" had great improv.  Highlander 
the Should be Forgotten had bad money.
Ok, it was kinda fun to watch Sean Connery hamming it up, but other than 
that, ya uniformly rotten.
I even saw the "Director's Cut"  That also truly awful...

I saw "Waiting for Guffmann" on CD. The cut scenes were as much fun as the 
rest of the movie.  From the commentary, they had dozens of additional 
hours of footage, including whole musical numbers.



----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:33:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201073242.006b7294@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012584829.6838.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> Well, first of all, looking at Trin, I think their first problem is going
> to be food.  10 billion people and a tainted atmosphere?

Looking at Trin's neighbors, there's no way Trin is importing food for 10
billion people, which means they must produce it locally somehow.
> 
> Then of course, their economy goes bye-bye.  An Imperial blockade stopping
> and seizing all ships to be found to be carrying goods from Trin, or with
> evidence on their ship's log of having been there, will stop imports and
> exports cold.

We don't know the exact volume of imports and exports from Trin.  Part of the
problem (from the prior discussions on JTAS) is that by Far Trader
calculations, Trin's total export economy is about 1% of GWP.  Even ignoring
that, the canon level of trade does not seem to be terribly high.  It's
possible that a pop-A TL-12 is dependent on trade to maintain it's tech (and
the existence of the long night somewhat supports this; we don't know how
common hi-pop worlds were in the 2nd imperium, nor by how much they really
collapsed), but loss of trade for less than a decade is unlikely.

> The Imperium has time, but it doesn't take that long to draw the fleets
> from the surrounding sectors.

Assuming no hostile neighbors reads this as 'opportunity!'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:36:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was: T5)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224719.00bcad80@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012584977.5758.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> 
> >Temptation to throw out thruster plates entirely, and invent a
> >volume-based drive.  Simplifies High Guard conversions greatly.
> 
> That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S.

In many ways, that's more 'what should be in FF&S3' than 'what should be in
QSDS'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:51:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com> <3c5ccadb.7418031@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C5AD587.4050500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:

> Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
>>Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  
>>
> 
> According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.
> See the definition in "Library Data" in the main rule book, and also
> some mentions in at least one of the Planetary Survey books. 
> 
> I don't know if this is a change to canon, a horrible mistake, or
> something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator
> actually visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and
> drinks, persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in
> question)...


I suspect that Amber zones are suggeted to the TAS by the scouts, much 
like State Department Travel Advisories...if those were published by a 
private company instead of the government.

Those advisories are pretty much the way I see TAS Red/Amber zone 
designations.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:52:13 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Think Desert Storm."


Mr. Berry,

     On second thought, think again.
     Just how mobile, in an interstellar strategic sense, are Imperial 
forces?

     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the 
time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."

     Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in 
the war zone itself.
     Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could 
be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.  After 
thawing out, they'd be issued the equipment they needed from stores on the 
scene.  But can the Imperium really move 1 million men?
     I've been following this thread and it's sister over on the JTAS 
boards.  The JTAS thread has settled comfortably into immovable seige lines, 
like the anarchy thread here has.  The one question unasked and unanswered 
at either forum is just how mobile the Imperium's forces are on a strategic 
scale.
     Anyone remember the thread early last year in which several old hands 
gently disabused me of my ideas on colonization?  I'd blithely assumed that 
Deneb and the Marches were mostly colonized by folks shipped in from the 
Imperial core territories.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen and others kindly pointed out 
how that was/is complete nonsense given the  costs associated with moving so 
many people.  If the cost of moving herds of frozen colonists can't be born 
by the Imperium, than why is shipping millions of troops suddenly 
achievable?
     Giving the arguments against long range colonization, I'd say that 
local forces don't recieve overwhelmly massive reenforcements from across 
the Imperium.  Imperial reenforcements may be limited to those from nearby 
sectors, and then still generally be those with their own, "built-in" 
interstellar mobility, i.e. fleets, vessels, etc.  Any other formations that 
arrive would have a very  big "bang to dTon" ratio, raiders, rangers, 
commandos, jump troops, Marines, etc.  The result would be a military 
organized somewhat like the Imperial Roman model.  Frontier forces 
positioned and raised for local defense, stiffened with relatively small 
numbers of superior, strategically mobile, Imperial forces.  Offensive 
actions would involve raising additional local formations rather than 
marshalling pre-existing forces from across the Imperium.
     Any thoughts?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>>on 1/31/02 4:58 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
>> pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
>> plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.
>
>Well, since you live in the highport too...
>
>And you can still get drunk, override the automatics, and careen through
the
>streets running down pedestrians.

Now we're talking!

--Glenn

(I'm not a rich and powerful person, but I play one in a Traveller
campaign.)  (Actually, I play several; I'm the referee.)  (Yes, it's set on
Regina, and occasionally steals xxx borrows from www.travellercentral.com .)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
>
>I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>Fair!"
>I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.

Well, maybe we just have to choose our adventures as we get older.  Rather
than being the leader of the platoon in an assault, maybe we go undercover
and walk through the objective a few days before.  Many retired people (65+)
go on archaeological and paleontological digs in remote places.  Ship's
captains and senior crew -- as well as airline cockpit crews -- are likely
to be in their 40s and 50s.  You're certainly not too decrepit for a great
many adventures, even if you would now decline to sleep in the mud.

For me, 40 is in the rearview mirror, but I'm in good enough shape to do a
lot of things that adventurers do.  I'm also a little smarter, so that I
don't waste as much energy doing them -- and I was probably not as vital a
physical creature in my teens and 20s as you.  (Remember Louis Wu at 200,
with his definite economy of motion; I'm just starting to understand those
concepts.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:06:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>      "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
> Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora
>  and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all
> the  time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."

Raising parties can easily wind up costing the attacker more than the defender.
> 
>      Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
> jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
> journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in
>  the war zone itself.
>      Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could
>  be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.

Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 jumps at
J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on Mora isn't an
Imperial army, it belongs to Mora.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:01:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:01:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <RELAY2wjWzyyLwDKCG4000018b0@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C5AD817.4020104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

markc@peak.org wrote:

> LKW <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>>3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London,
>>>I felt so naked that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a
>>>guy on the street.
>>>
>>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense
>>from butterflies?
>>
> 
> Defense from.  Have you *seen* the size of those suckers at
> Kew Gardens?  Man, I suspect they carry of livestock! :^)
> 
> Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
> of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
> an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
> on *me*!) :^)


What? You must walk around with a bandolier, like that guy in "El 
Mariachi" (the remake with Banderas, don't remember if that character 
was in the original)

You are the only person I've ever met who carries a Champion all the 
time...mine's a (iirc) Huntsman, I only carry the classic Leatherman, 
both in a fanny pack, and an old, well-used and well loved metal sided 
executive in my pocket.

And that last one is a rather strange blade...kinda hard to open your 
mail or cut some cheese for lunch with it, and every time _I've_ tried 
to use it as a corkscrew I just got wine all over the place!


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:59:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:59:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5bc5bd.6107545@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201125734.00ace2f0@mail.charter.net>

But Happy Fun Balls are just *one* of our weapons.

Our Three main weapons are:
Marines on Liberty!
Happy Fun Ball Battleships
A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!
The Imperial Office of Weights and Measures.

Damn!

Our *Four* main weapons are:...


At 05:16 PM 2/1/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >Our Two Main weapons are:
> >Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
> >Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
> >A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!
>
>I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
>an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
>peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
>Tigresses...
>
>Stephen
>(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
>adding insult to injury)

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from
butterflies?

Both, and it doubles as a raincoat, so that I really didn't feel naked at
all.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
>
>I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled and
>unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

As they say in the Consulate, if you can't have good psi conditioning, at
least you can have art.  Poor Imperials.  Poor Solomani.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:31:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:31:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201103139.006c2670@mindspring.com>

At 05:52 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>     "Think Desert Storm."
>
>     On second thought, think again.
>     Just how mobile, in an interstellar strategic sense, are Imperial 
>forces?
>
>     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
>Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
>and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the 
>time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."
>
>     Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
>jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
>journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in 
>the war zone itself.
>     Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could 
>be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.  After 
>thawing out, they'd be issued the equipment they needed from stores on the 
>scene.  But can the Imperium really move 1 million men?

I refer to that font of wonder, Ground Forces.

A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
million troops.

The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.  

Note that this doesn't even begin to count the troops from Deneb, Glisten,
or Lunion that might be drawn in to support the fight.  Rhylanor has a huge
UA, and could easily transport an enire grav tank army to add to the punch.
 Remember that the Keith-class is equpped with its own battalion sized
landers.

Reefer transports are passe'.

>     I've been following this thread and it's sister over on the JTAS 
>boards.  The JTAS thread has settled comfortably into immovable seige lines, 
>like the anarchy thread here has.  The one question unasked and unanswered 
>at either forum is just how mobile the Imperium's forces are on a strategic 
>scale.
>     Anyone remember the thread early last year in which several old hands 
>gently disabused me of my ideas on colonization?  I'd blithely assumed that 
>Deneb and the Marches were mostly colonized by folks shipped in from the 
>Imperial core territories.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen and others kindly pointed out 
>how that was/is complete nonsense given the  costs associated with moving so 
>many people.  If the cost of moving herds of frozen colonists can't be born 
>by the Imperium, than why is shipping millions of troops suddenly 
>achievable?

Because these troops aren't coming from the Core, they are coming a
relatively short distance.  Mora is four jumps away from Trin ( Maitz
[2927], Nexine [3030], Katarulu [3032], Trin [3235. Alternate route is to
jump from Katarulu to Murchenson [2935] which has a Navy base.)  The troops
spend a couple of months travelling.

>     Giving the arguments against long range colonization, I'd say that 
>local forces don't recieve overwhelmly massive reenforcements from across 
>the Imperium.  Imperial reenforcements may be limited to those from nearby 
>sectors, and then still generally be those with their own, "built-in" 
>interstellar mobility, i.e. fleets, vessels, etc.  Any other formations that 
>arrive would have a very  big "bang to dTon" ratio, raiders, rangers, 
>commandos, jump troops, Marines, etc.  The result would be a military 
>organized somewhat like the Imperial Roman model.  Frontier forces 
>positioned and raised for local defense, stiffened with relatively small 
>numbers of superior, strategically mobile, Imperial forces.  Offensive 
>actions would involve raising additional local formations rather than 
>marshalling pre-existing forces from across the Imperium.
>     Any thoughts?

A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the advantage
shifts.

The Unified Armies are drawn from local stock.. they just are very picky
and get the best equipment.

Also note that the single field army of the UA Trin would mostly likely not
be used, as Trinites make up the bulk of it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:36:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:36:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>I'm in there one day, and need to find out something.  Neo-punker at
>the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say "Manager?  That isn't
>very anarchisitc, is it?"

Maybe she meant something like this:

"I told you, we're an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take it in turns to
act a sort of executive officer for the week.  But all the decisions of that
officer must be approved at a bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the
case of purely internal affairs ...."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:36:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Murder
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
>
>Charles wrote:
>
>> How does it frame a law in a way that offers equal protection to
>> all? It's harder than you think, since new species are contacted
>
>It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
>worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
>(with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
>is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
>against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
>jurisdictions ...

Joe:  So then we had problems wit dis guy Teppo who ran some rackets near
the Coliseum, so we whacked him.

RIS Informant J:  How did you get away with that?  Did they even, even
prosecute you, bring a murder charge?

Joe:  Nah, no problem.  Get it, he was from Efate, get it.  Eff Arty.  He
went to visit his relatives, and wunna my boys got insulted over a woman,
and challenged him to a duel, and that was the end of Teppo.  Duelling is
legal on Efate, so there was, there was no crime committed, no crime at all.
Regina prosecutors looked at it like my boy did them a favor.  It's a
wonderful empire, huh?

(Excerpt of recorded conversation between Joseph P. Ciscovich aka Slimey
Joe, and confidential Regina Internal Security informant "J", 038-1100.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:34:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020201034609.45831.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c1ab3e$4dbda200$1f9e15ac@warrior>

there can be only one... highlander movie that is

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Cessna" <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] OT Enterprise Question


>   >>
>   AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!FIEND!!You uttered the Forbidden
> Phrase!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>     MACessna[gasping forAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....]
>   >>
> --- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I
> > hadn't suffered psychic
> > trauma like that since watching the original
> > American release of
> > Highlander 2.
> >
> >
> > Perry
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
> http://auctions.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 19:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:53:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5A9DC2.18462.123906@localhost>


> 
> It was formally adopted by the Grey Council of Elders at the Synod of
> 1882.
> 
> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 


As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of 
comment riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. 
It is about having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying 
anarchists.

Well at least he respected Bakunin now its not to bad.  As 
someone who is proudly not a card caring Anarchist I say it was a 
joke get over it. 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:33:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:33:54 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>


From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force
Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the  
time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."


Mr. Jackson,

      Sorry, not mine.  It's Mr. Berry's fine prose.

     "Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 
jumps at J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on 
Mora isn't an Imperial army, it belongs to Mora."

     Ahhh, that one is mine, and it's a whopper!  I misread the original 
post, assuming that we were talking about reenforcements during the Solomani 
Rim War and not for a proposed blockade and/or invasion of Trin.  Mea Culpa 
and mea pretty damn stupid too.
     Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could 
Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:55:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012596956.5627.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:

>      Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could
>  Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?

Yes (it's similar in distance to Trin), unlikely (it's about a hundred
parsecs), unlikely (it's well over a hundred parsecs).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:59:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>    "A single Keith-class Transport..."

Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...

AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:56:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:56:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com> <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <025301c1ab62$f33b77b0$1f9e15ac@warrior>


> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
>

damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:51:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I refer to that font of wonder, Ground Forces."


Mr. Berry,

     You're superb riposte to my silly post is moot, sir.
     In my senility, I thought we were talking about Deneb and Marches 
sending reenforcements to the front during the Solomani Rim War and not 
their simply providing the muscle requested by the 3I IRS for their audit of 
Trin.
     My apologies.

     "A single Keith-class Transport..."

     What's your back-of-the-envelope calculation for Imperial UA's 
strategic mobility?  Could/would Mora send troops to a party on Vincennes?  
How about Vland?  Ilelish?
     We've seen in canon that fleet elements from Corridor show up in the 
Marches during the odd Frontier War.  Would UA formations travel that far 
too?  Would UA Corridor ship a field army into the Marches?  Or would the 
Imperial rather raise and train new formations in place?
     There must be some sort of costs vs. benefits graph at work here.  even 
with those wonderful "Keiths" toting combat ready brigades, there should 
still be a radius of action in effect.  How far off the leash would the 
originating UA allow their forces to slip?  When will the cost and time of 
moving UA formations across vast distances outweigh the cost and time of 
raising and training new formations in place?
     Everything being equal, I'd believe that formations with a high "bang 
to dTon" ratio would travel further; Sylean Rangers, Marines, commandos and 
raiders of various stripes, while the heavy, i.e. armored, units would a 
relatively smaller radius of action.
     Any thoughts?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:51:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <022501c1ab62$2d42c5e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

On that note,

I seem to remember reading in some peice of traveller material about a
marine SOP of filling empty areas with stands of mono-wire as a little
suprise for these guys...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)


> At 12:36 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:
> >> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
> >>  nobles?
> >
> >And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are
often
> >not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.
> >
> >Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are
> >clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic
> >
> >"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the
pins
> >fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"
>
> Played in a 5FW based game once, and we were facing Zho Guards on Efate.
> We had gotten sick of that trick, so we fooled them.
>
> We took a large number of psi-shields and uniforms from dead comrades, and
> made dummies, and made positions for them.. even armed them.  (We had
> learned from experience that most of the CG seers weren't that good - a
> bone the Referee threw us)
>
> The Mind-raper scans, sees a platoon sized position with everybody on
> guard, a few people around a cook pot, etc.  Passes the word to the
assault
> team.  Thet zot in...
>
> ... and get wiped out by our preset explosives.  It's amazing what 20kg of
> TDX will do to a Zho platoon.  We then overran the Zho jumping-off point,
> and smashed it before they could react.
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
>   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:42:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:42:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <RELAY3pLdnoHW8Tf1Im00004b77@relay3.softcomca.com>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

> What? You must walk around with a bandolier, like that guy in "El 
> Mariachi" (the remake with Banderas, don't remember if that character 
> was in the original)

Well, not exactly.  My belt *does* get comments occasionally.  (What
with the Victronix and Leatherman on the right, and the Gerber Multi-
plier and a Surefire 9P on the left, and the SpyderCo clipped to my
left front pocket.  The S&W is a CHL piece.)  Sometimes I also carry
a Nokia cellphone and a PDA on my belt as well.  (And people say
there's no advantage to a big waistline.  Hah!!) :^)

> You are the only person I've ever met who carries a Champion all the 
> time...

I misspoke.  My Swiss Army knife is an Explorer, not a Champion.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:41:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:41:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>

At 08:33 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:

>     Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could 
>Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?

Not without a whole lot of time, but remember, there are Unified Armies and
Navy fleets in every subsector of the Imperium.  There is always somebody
close by to lend a hand (and several Field Armies)

Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
massive power of the Corridor fleet.  The only reason they got away with
that Ziru Sirkaa business in MT was that Lucan had drained the CF to fight
Dulinor.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:37:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:37:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <022501c1ab62$2d42c5e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201133726.006ad3e0@mindspring.com>

At 03:51 PM 02/01/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On that note,
>
>I seem to remember reading in some peice of traveller material about a
>marine SOP of filling empty areas with stands of mono-wire as a little
>suprise for these guys...

Or a bunch of daisy-chained claymores linked to a laser eye trigger. *pop*,
ping, BOOM!

(Rose just wandered in, looked over my shoulder, and asked why we were
weaving Scottish greatswords. Great lady, but such a civilian!)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:57:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201135711.006ad0f0@mindspring.com>

At 08:51 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>     "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
>     What's your back-of-the-envelope calculation for Imperial UA's 
>strategic mobility?  Could/would Mora send troops to a party on Vincennes?  
>How about Vland?  Ilelish?

The Imperial Army system as I see (and wrote) it makes that eventuality
unlikely.  Each subsector has an army of its own.  Each world has a
planetary defense force that it raises locally.  The size of the Imperial
force is roughly 5% of the combined strength of the planetary force.  The
Imperials have the advantage in technology and support.

>     We've seen in canon that fleet elements from Corridor show up in the 
>Marches during the odd Frontier War.  Would UA formations travel that far 
>too?  Would UA Corridor ship a field army into the Marches?  Or would the 
>Imperial rather raise and train new formations in place?

They ship in troops from closer places first, and also ask high-tech worlds
to commit their PDF troops to the fight (those colonial units from 5FW..
ad hoc units made up of the armies of different worlds.  Think of some of
the formations in WWII that had National Guard units from several states,
or some of the joint NATO exercises.)

If it got to the point that troops were needed from as far away as
Corridor, that means that Deneb has been stripped bare.  This is some
massive number of troops!

>     There must be some sort of costs vs. benefits graph at work here.  even 
>with those wonderful "Keiths" toting combat ready brigades, there should 
>still be a radius of action in effect.  How far off the leash would the 
>originating UA allow their forces to slip?  When will the cost and time of 
>moving UA formations across vast distances outweigh the cost and time of 
>raising and training new formations in place?

Most UA forces stay in their home subsectors, and rarely leave their home
sectors at all.  Usually, travel to a neighboring subsector is not to far
off the leash.  District 268 is garrisoned in several places by the armies
of Five Sisters and Glisten, and the Sword Worlds are occupied by the UA
Lunion.

The huge cost in raising a new force is in material.  Intrepids and
Sunburst Missile Sleds ain't cheap!  Training is also a problem.  This is
why the Imperium prefers to draw on the established PDFs of those worlds
that use similar or the same equipment for emergency replacements.

In a full-sector game of 5FW, we had a corps from Trin's Veil end up on
Riverland.  It just happened that when ever I needed troops for an assault,
that corps was in the right place.  We had a good laugh about their unit
nickname  "The Hold Warriors"  "If it's Twoday, it must be Regina"

>     Everything being equal, I'd believe that formations with a high "bang 
>to dTon" ratio would travel further; Sylean Rangers, Marines, commandos and 
>raiders of various stripes, while the heavy, i.e. armored, units would a 
>relatively smaller radius of action.

The Marines are your *get there now* force.  Most of the IMF is spread
around in the small, company sized Caen-class ships, traveling with fleet
elements so they can be quickly dispatched to deal with problems.  But the
Marines are a limited force, unless you want a specific, fairly limited
target destroyed (not held), you need the army.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:43:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:43:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
References: <8190FFA3-15C4-11D6-AA01-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0C1C.8000800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Dominic Mooney wrote:

> 
> On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
>> I've seen a lot of space objects through the years, and all with the
>> natural eye, no scope. From Vandenburg launches to orbiting satellites,
>> that lost cable and sail gismo, Mir and a shuttle chasing it as they flew
>> over the San Francisco Bay a few years back.
>>
>> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
>> brightest object in space.
> 
> 
> If you want to look at the ISS, there was a great website called 
> 'www.heavens-above.com' or something similar. It's a German based site 
> that will generate maps showing the position of the ISS and other 
> objects for your home location. Haven't been there for a while, and the 
> URL is on my work Windoze NT m/c.
> 
> Anyone got the correct URL.



Dunno about that one, but http://spaceflight.nasa.gov has links to siting data.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
> massive power of the Corridor fleet.

Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.

Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:46:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
References: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5B1AC9.509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
>>Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
>>massive power of the Corridor fleet.
>>
> 
> Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
> canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
> is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
> at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
> production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
> lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.
> 
> Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.
> 

However Corridor is of great strategic importance since it is the lowest 
jump route to the Spinward Marches, and is right up against the vargr 
frontier to Coreward, and, undefended, would open Vlands entire spinward 
flank to incursions.

Canonically, Lucan's first great mistake was to strip Corridor of it's 
fleet to fight Dulinor.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:26:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201142603.006a9ad8@mindspring.com>

At 12:59 PM 02/01/02 -0800, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>>    "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
>Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
>from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
>basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...

Does the phrase "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it" ring any
bells?

>AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

I'm re-reading Ambrose's D-Day right now, and from what I can tell, *any*
opposed landing, at any time, any place, at any tech level, is a nightmare.
 Hell, look at all the effort made to sucker the Germans into believing
that the assaults would come at Calais; and it was still a bloodbath.
Imagine if we hadn't fooled the Germans, or if Rommel had operational
control of the panzer divisions.

>From Ground Forces, page 63, regarding invasions:

"This type of mission is rarely undertaken due to the extreme risk of
casualties. Invasions require enormous support and massive numbers of
troops.  They are never undertaken lightly.  Only when the needs of the
Imperium absolutely require that the planet be completely subdued are
invasions considered."

snip

"To cut down on collateral, High Command prefers to use naval sieges, but
there eventually comes a point where the troops need to be sent in."

A "1-A" mission (invasion of a hi-pop, high-TL world) is the most dreaded
mission in the Imperium.  The last time it happened was in 1002, with Earth.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:49:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> IIRC, the entire basis of most of the versions of trade and commerce
> rules indicate that the reason trade works so well is that hi pop
> worlds tend to be (A) higher tech and (B) less able to sustain
> themselves.

Yep, high-tech worlds are generally higher tech.  However, they are
also *far more* able to sustain themselves.  By the figures in Far
Trader, high-pop worlds tend to have trade in the 0.1% to 2% of GWP
range.  There is no analog on Earth for such a low trade figure.

Low-pop worlds have a much higher fraction of trade, almost
exclusively with their nearest high-pop neighbours.  If trade were to
be cut off with a high-pop world (and no other changes were to be
made), it is far more likely that most of the low-pop worlds nearby
would collapse economically with no significant effect on the target
of the embargoed world.

Such an outcome would be politically unacceptable.  In order to
prevent this, the Imperium would have to heavily subsidize and
substitute products from further away.  In the end, I think the cost
to the Imperium of such an action would be far higher than the cost to
Trin.

Note that the taxes paid by Trin to the Imperium are almost certainly
higher than its total trade volume!  It seems to me that the only
economic downside to Trin of refusing to pay taxes is the virtual
certainty of the protection racket ... er, Imperium ... coming in and
burning their house down.


> What would follow is seige.  I would expect negotiating envoys to be
> allowed through to try to come to an agreement.  After a given time,
> if it becomes obvious that the government will not comply, the Navy
> moves in.

It's really only that last threat that would cause any worry to Trin.


> For large "Trin" sized defense forces, it may be necessary to wait
> until several years for maintenance failures to help decimate the
> fleet,

"Maintenance failures"?  What makes you think that a high-tech,
high-pop industrial world with A-class starport facilities won't be
able and willing to *increase* military production in such a
situation?  I'd be more worried about maintenance failures in the
*Imperial* starships, who after all are a lot further from their
shipyards and resupply points.


It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
external trading partners after all...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:43:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:43:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201133726.006ad3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8805A14.22D63%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/1/02 1:37 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> Or a bunch of daisy-chained claymores linked to a laser eye trigger. *pop*,
> ping, BOOM!
> 
> (Rose just wandered in, looked over my shoulder, and asked why we were
> weaving Scottish greatswords. Great lady, but such a civilian!)

Well, you could have said M18A1 APERS Mine

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:55:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:55:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <3C5B1AC9.509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012604157.4086.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> However Corridor is of great strategic importance since it is the lowest 
> jump route to the Spinward Marches, and is right up against the vargr 
> frontier to Coreward, and, undefended, would open Vlands entire spinward 
> flank to incursions.

Vland's pretty subject to incursions anyway, not sure how much more vulnerable
it would be if Corridor fell.  Corridor's important to the Domain of Deneb, but
how important is the Domain of Deneb to the rest of the Imperium?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:58:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:58:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <20020201.175844.-108693.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
> made up a symbol?

I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's basically an 'A'
superimposed on a circle.

(Or if you knew that and was just being sarcastic, ignore this post)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:52:55 -0500
Subject: A^3 & H2 (was Re: [TML] OT Enterprise Question)
Message-ID: <20020201.175844.-108693.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


> > A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered
psychic
> > trauma like that since watching the original American release of
> > Highlander 2.
> 
> Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my 
> screams as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the 
> snack bar didn't disturb you much...

Actually, your tortured suffering momentarily distracted me from the
sheer awfulness that as before me on the screen, so don't think that your
suffering was entirely in vain...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:32:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:32:50 -0000
Subject: [TML] DGP material
References: <001201c1ab08$8bf8a1e0$0200a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <000401c1ab77$826e2900$5562893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 31 January 2002 14:49
Subject: Re: [TML] DGP material


> Michael Barry wrote:
> > I've been following the discussion with interest. However the
> > idea of buying the rights from RS then turning over to the public
> > domain basically rewards the guy's atrocious behaviour.
>
> I have a question about the DGP Traveller properties ... but I do
> not want to reignite the copyright flamewar here.  Given that the
> DGP properties are devaluing over time, and recognising  that  RS
> wants silly money for them, what (in the opinion of the list)  is
> a *fair and reasonable* market value for those properties today?

I heard a rumour once that his price wasn'r money, but the development of
one of his ideas within teh game world. What was that idea, and was it
really so objectionable?

--
Fabian
It ain't the money, it's the job title.
It ain't the job title, it's what you do.
It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.
That's what it's all about.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:01:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:01:57 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question (long and dry,
 alas)
In-Reply-To: <001701c1aae5$c0d37200$107379a5@trentfs>
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020201175348.025e7888@mail.earthlink.net>

At 09:59 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, Trent wrote:
>Neither of these are too convincing, but what was (at least for me) was the
>results of a couple of quick back-calculations on standard designs from the
>Imperial Encyclopedia, specifically the Type R subsidized merchant and the
>Gig.  Both are pricy high tech designs with shoddy computers installed (Type
>R: TL 15, MCr 67.5, computer 1/bis; Gig: TL 14, MCr 13.78, computer 0).
>
>Computer 0 has a CP multiplier of 5 and a mx. CP input of 500.  The Gig has
>a CP requirement of (roughly) 1900.  Per the IE writeup it has installed a
>headsup display and 282 'holodynamic links' (aside: in yet another apparent
>editorial gaffe, ALL the standard ships have 'holodynamic links' even though
>such a thing doesn't exist -- there's 'dynamic link' and 'holographic link'
>but no 'holodynamic').  Assuming holodynamic to be dynamic we get an
>installed CP total of 332, multiplied by the computer = 1660, which is
>probably about right.
>
>Computer 1/bis has a CP multiplier of 15 and a max. CP input of 7500.  The
>Type R has a CP requirement of approx. 10,000.  Per IE it has headsup x 3
>and holodynamic x 403 -- total CP 553, multiplied = 8295, again probably
>about right.
>
>Note that in both of these cases, the required CP of the craft greatly
>exceed the 'max CP input' of the computers, but the number of (unmultiplied)
>CP from installed control panels fall within it.  While this doesn't settle
>the issue 100% (it's more common that not for published designs to be at
>least slightly broken, and not uncommon at all for them to be REALLY
>broken), it does lend pretty strong evidence to the notion that the 'max CP
>input' entry is supposed to apply to CP from installed control panels BEFORE
>they are multiplied by the computer. QED.
>
>So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs are broken and
>need to be redone?  No, it just means that a lot of them probably could've
>gotten away with smaller computers than he installed.  Not that installing
>the cheapest or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
>choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But it does
>allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better in the end.
>
>Trent

One thing I learned a long time ago, is not to use the standard ships in MT 
to interpret the rules.  Those are straight conversions from Book 2 or 
5.  If you add the volume of the components up, they do not match.  If in 
Book 2 or 5 they said it needed a model 1/bis computer, that is what it got 
in the MT writeup, whether or not it followed the rules.  A good example of 
what I am talking about is the X-boat.  In the conversion to MT, what 
happened to all the space taken up by the fuel (MT used 5%*(jump +1) 
instead of 10% * jump).

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 23:57:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sierra City
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Hi Kris:

We are up for Sierra City 23-24 March; thanks for inviting us.  Let's bring
skis with us from here this time, to save driving to Truckee.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:22:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:22:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sierra City
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B53@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Watch your send there Glenn.  You just sent that to the TML ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:57 PM
To: Traveller-Digest
Subject: [TML] Sierra City 


Hi Kris:

We are up for Sierra City 23-24 March; thanks for inviting us.  Let's bring
skis with us from here this time, to save driving to Truckee.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:29:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020201182752.026114a0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 02:18 PM 2/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
> >
> > Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
> > massive power of the Corridor fleet.
>
>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
>canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
>is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
>at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
>production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
>lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.
>
>Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.

Each of the coreward subsectors of Corridor had 2 imperial subsector fleets 
instead of 1.  This is per one of the MT books.

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:43:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:43:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

>> "Maintenance failures"?  What makes you think that a high-tech,
>> high-pop industrial world with A-class starport facilities won't be
>> able and willing to *increase* military production in such a
>> situation?  I'd be more worried about maintenance failures in the
>> *Imperial* starships, who after all are a lot further from their
>> shipyards and resupply points.
>>
>> It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has
>> no external trading partners after all...
>>
>> - Tim

It is my opinion that a HT/HP world such as Trin is not likely to just
suddenly up and stop paying... there would be a number of stages...

1) Unrest... "This just aint fair":  The population/government/leadership
start to feel upset with Imperial taxes and start to complain to the powers
that be (subsector/sector Impie reps).

2) Despair... "No-one is listening": The powers that be refuse/decline to
change the tax situation that is causing the unrest

3) Anger... "Someone ought to do something": the Trinnies are mad and demand
a change...  now!

4) Planning... "The Impies aren't going to just lie there": Trin's
government starts to clandestinely plan to oppose the Impies (and here is
the fun part)  Training schedule for Trin military units is "increased' and
repair/maintenance schedules are ramped up. maybe an increase in recruitment
ads to bring manpower up to maximum levels. Certain areas of commerce are
inspected and "improved" (looks like we import less food than we need, maybe
the gov should invest in shrimp farms) money is secreted in and/or out of
the system because Trin has probably seen the Impie playbook on this sort of
thing.

5) Rebellion...

Of course, Impie spies are probably looking for these kinds of signs as
well...

(Sir, I have a report from one of our assets in the Veil, says that the
385th SDB squadron has doubled it's combat readiness training...)

Geoff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:01:25 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: (null)
Message-ID: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>

In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
the standard universe.

I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
an import utility from Galactic data files.

I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
with such data.  My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:02:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:02:01 EST
Subject: [TML] aging
Message-ID: <89.12daa9fd.298c9489@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 03:17:21 GMT Standard Time, n2sami@attbi.com 
writes:


> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"
> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
> 
> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
> 

I've always wondered why ageing wasn't effected by the two things that are 
known to have an impact: wealth and technology. Surely rich characters from 
high tech worlds should be able to delay ageing rolls while poor characters 
from low tech worlds are subject to them sooner?

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:04:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <d2.1324987f.298c9536@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 15:39:00 GMT Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com 
writes:


> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to 
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings 
> under 
> the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 
> LKW
> 

I always admired Emma Goldman, a women who failed to find work as a 
prostitute and managed to get deported from both the USSR and the USA because 
of her politics.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:26:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:26:27 EST
Subject: [TML] Murder
Message-ID: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 10:19:10 GMT Standard Time, ptrevor@rctrevor.com 
writes:


> > Whilst engaging in the highly OT discussion of anarchy it occured
> > to me that any interstellar multispecies operation like the 3I
> > has a major problem when it comes to murder.
> > 
> > How does it frame a law in a way that offers equal protection to
> > all? It's harder than you think, since new species are contacted
> > on a regular basis and sentience alone cannot be used (since that
> > might let in robots or computers). Biological sentience could be
> > used but what about biocomputers? How do they differ from their
> > mechanical counterparts?
> 
> It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
> worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
> (with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
> is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
> against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
> jurisdictions ... they could also be  used  as  "suggestions"  to
> planetary  legislatures.  The  3I  even  tolerates  open  warfare
> between member states provided that civilian  casulties  are  not
> "excessive" (remember the Imperial Rules of War for mercs?).
> 
> Before the complications of new species,  robots,  and  computers
> you'll have local variations in law on:
> - Abortion
> - Euthanasia
> - Death penalty
> - Duelling
> - What constitutes self-defence
> - Clone rights (both full maturity clones, and  non-aware  clones
>   grown for spare parts)
> - Gladatorial games and dangerous sports
> - Responsibility for accidental death
> - Withholding medical aid on financial grounds
> - and colateral damage from local wars
> 
> The 3I is *not* homogenous, in certain respects it resembles  the
> UN with teeth.  (And this *inequality* is  what  initially  drove
> Dulinor!)
> 
> Regards PLST
> 

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder 
definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm going from 
memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)

"Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day, causes the 
death of the product of a human mother"

Clearly this definition can be used for most of the citizens of the Imperium 
but not all. Although I don't doubt the correctness of your description of 
the function of the 3I or the variability of local laws there are at least 
two good reasons for an Imperial definition of murder:

1) Some killings will occur aboard Imperial vessels or on directly ruled 
worlds. The local ruler here is the Imperium, so it must have a suitable 
definition of murder. This would also include killings that take place in 
starports.

2) Diplomatic considerations; imagine first contact with a powerful 
interstellar race. War with them would be a bad thing but one of your scouts 
gets drunk and kills one in a brawl aboard an Imperial vessel. The aliens 
demand the perpertrator is tried for murder. If no clear definition of murder 
exists then it may be impossible to meet their demand.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:42:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:42:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Zhodani
Message-ID: <149.8d35806.298c9df6@aol.com>

Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> writes:

>   Hmm? I thought that the Zhodani nobility is not inheritable at
>   all and can only be gained though personal qualification. The
>   inheritable noble rank is something that exists only in the
>   decadent Imperium.

 The historical data suggests some level of inheritance, and (to commit the 
usual Traveller sin of assuming life follows the rulebook) it is possible to 
start a character at one of the two lowest Noble ranks (Soc 11 or 12), with 
no stat- or Psi-based mechanic for getting there if you started as a Prole 
(Prole kids with a high enough Psi become Intendants (Soc 10) not nobles). 
Now, there *might* be the occasional Doogie Howser kid who tests into 
Intendant status and earns his way into nobility before 18, but if this were 
the norm it would probably have been mentioned somewhere. As it is I prefer 
to assume that Soc 11 and 12 are inheritable, and are in fact what drives 
Intendants to strive towards Noble status: passing your success along to at 
least one kid. This follows from the prole-based ambition that is common in 
the Consulate: A persons ambitions for advancement center on his children. 
All Proles are citizens of their homeworlds. Only a lucky few become true 
citizens of the Consulate as a whole

 As for inheritance leading to Intendant status,this too follows from the 
rules, as to *attain* the status (if born a Prole) you must have a Psi of 9+, 
but if you rolled that Soc 10 to begin with, your Psi is what it is.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:58:57 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
Message-ID: <8c.13713a08.298ca1e1@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/1/02 5:07:59 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned
>in canon somewhere?

Rebellion Sourcebook and (i think) FSotSI. 

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 02:27:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:27:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202020105.g1215B704115@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16WptD-0008KG-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I've always wondered why ageing wasn't effected by the two things that
> are known to have an impact: wealth and technology. Surely rich
> characters from high tech worlds should be able to delay ageing rolls
> while poor characters from low tech worlds are subject to them sooner?

One house rule for MT that I've seen and really like is to have tech 
level modifiers for aging.  

Pre-Stellar (TL 6-8) is taken as 0 modifier.   

Early Stellar (TL 9-10) characters gets +1 to all aging rolls. 

Average Stellar (TL 11-13) get +2 to all aging rolls.

High Stellar (TL 14-16) characters get +3 to all aging rolls. 

Although it never came up, I imagine there would be similar 
penalties for being from an Industrial or Pre-Industrial TL (-1 or -2 I'd 
imagine).  I'd not thought about Wealth, but using MT, I'd give a -1 
to aging rolls for characters with a Soc of 4 or less a +0 to aging 
roll for characters with a Soc of 5-9 and +1 to aging roll for 
characters with a Soc of 10+.

This would mean that a poor person from a pre-industrial society 
would die *very* young (-3 to all aging rolls), but that only makes 
sense.

Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a 
very reasonable fashion.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 03:59:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:59:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm with Frank Chadwick:

"In a word, we reject all legislation, all authority, and all
privileged, licensed and legal powers over us, . . ." Michael
Alekxandrovich Bakunin (1814-1876)

Although wasn't Bakunin a political nihilist really?

ObTrav: So much for CANON!

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 04:47:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:47:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c1aba4$c39df5e0$2f7de40c@loki>

Glen. So that's real life. Now roll up a classic Traveller character as
old as you are complete with aging rolls. Strength 1, Constitution 1...


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:13:14 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <8190FFA3-15C4-11D6-AA01-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202020911490.21566-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
> brightest object in space.

Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
space? Isn't it quite bright, too?

(Of course, I assume that you speak of objects as we see them from the
Earth's surface.)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:11:12 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F229BgD2nfTXKcHI0lq0000a55b@hotmail.com>

From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

     "(in fact, looking at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the 
world, not the sector) has production comparable to the entire Corridor 
sector.  Corridor's a pretty lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or 
Mora look small."

     "Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant."


Mr. Jackson,

     And yet, Lishun is supposedly occupied by the Vargr after the sector 
fleet is withdrawn.  And that despite all the colonial squadrons still 
there, not to mention the PDFs and a 12 subsector strong UA Lishun.
     Just another example of the goofiness surrounding MT's Alien 
Incursions.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, Chairman Emeritus of C.O.R.V.E.*

* - The Committee to Oxbow the Rebellion and Viral Eras

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:22:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:22:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
Message-ID: <200202020722.XAA00085@molly.iii.com>

"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:

>On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
>> brightest object in space.
>
>Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
>space? Isn't it quite bright, too?

Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:46:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
Message-ID: <20020201.234621.-247513.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:22:40 -0800 (PST) Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@iii.com> writes:
> "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
> 
> >On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is 
> the brightest object in space.
> >
> >Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us 
> in>space? Isn't it quite bright, too?
> 
> Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

Ok guys, you got me.
I should have added "man made" before object. Geesh!

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:48:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:48:52 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
In-Reply-To: <200202020722.XAA00085@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202020947520.21566-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
> >space? Isn't it quite bright, too?
> Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

Well, yes, and considering that Venus gets regularily reported as an UFO,
ISS is quite bright.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 10:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:16:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
References: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <20020202211643.A8806@freeman.little-possums.net>

Geoff @ MotionBlur wrote:
> It is my opinion that a HT/HP world such as Trin is not likely to
> just suddenly up and stop paying... there would be a number of
> stages...

Certainly.


> 1) Unrest... "This just aint fair": The
> population/government/leadership start to feel upset with Imperial
> taxes and start to complain to the powers that be (subsector/sector
> Impie reps).

I don't think even that would happen often.  The high-pop worlds must
generally feel that their taxes are spent wisely, or the Imperium
would be in a lot more trouble than it is.

Although, it does seem a bit odd that the Imperium is stated to exist
primarily to promote trade, yet the taxes collected are at least an
order of magnitude higher than the total trade volume!  That's why in
My Traveller Universe, trade volumes for high-pop worlds are about
3-30 times higher than Far Trader figures.


[...]
> 5) Rebellion...
> 
> Of course, Impie spies are probably looking for these kinds of signs as
> well...

No doubt.  Though in a very real sense the Imperium *is* the high-pop
worlds (plus a collection of stragglers).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 12:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:11:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>

where have you found budgets for the navy? I've been trying to figure out how big
my fleet really is. What is the budget canonaicly(sp?)

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >Hello Anthony,
> >  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
> >things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
> >that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
> >were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
> >taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.
>
> It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
> the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
> is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).
>
> >  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
> >powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
> >of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
> >Imperium wants to see emplaced.
>
> Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
> the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.
>
> >  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
> >Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
> >Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
> >incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
> >placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
> seem to be rather insular.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 12:33:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:33:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
References: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5BDC8D.AA6494E0@mindspring.com>

See Saving Private Ryan. Talk to someone who was there. ( If they'll talk about
it. My Uncle wouldn't ) Read Starship troopers. Yes its hell, but the
politicians only see their hold slipping away. Its a lot easier to send in the
marines than to report to  Empress Iphegenia that a world is in rebellion and
you don't know what to do.


Anthony Jackson wrote:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >    "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
> Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
> from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
> basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...
>
> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 09:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:43:04 -0000
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
References: <B87F2F45.22A8B%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c1abe7$35c3bd20$d47a893e@fabian>

> From: "daumen@mindspring.com" <rdaumen@mindspring.com>

> > Civil Law: The group of laws which deal with suing the pants off your
> > fellow countryman. The higher this level, the bigger the punitive
damages
> > you can claim. Multiply this rating by 1d3 to determine the % tax
taken by
> > the government in such lawsuits. Lawyers may take a similar amount as
> > their fee in successful cases. Ludicrous lawsuits allow for penalties
> > other than financial, and/or total unlimited financial destruction, in
> > case you were wondering.
>
> Can citizens obtain legal insurance?

Don't see why not. Of course, it carries a premium for travel to high-LL
worlds, and may not be valid for worlds with ludicrous lawsuits. There's a
reason why 'world travel' insurance policies have a premium if you want it
to include the USA.

> > 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
> >     and enforced only by private means.
>
>    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.

I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.

>    9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
>  10 - Punitive strict liability.

Is this where a doctor or other professional carer causes injury? I'm not
familiar with legal jargon.

> > 11 - Ludicrous lawsuits for breach of contract.
> > 12 - Ludicrous lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
> >      Punitive lawsuits for material loss caused by negligence.
> >      This is a lawyer's paradise, and an amber zone.
> >
> I really like the restitutive/punitive/ludricous steps.

Thanks. It should be borne in mind that although a ludicrous case will
often reach court, most of the time, the judge would decide that the
appropriate penalty should be punitive, and punitive lawsuits would still
be common. Ludicrous lawsuits should be newspaper-worthy and/or campaign
hooks (in an appropriate campaign where the PCs are all lawyers), not
humdrum. Likewise, at mid-high law levels, a punitive case may often be
downgraded to restitutive when the final verdict is given by the judge.


OBbizarre mental image: Ally McBeal, transposed on a LL-12 TL-12 world.
Imagine a Traveller campaign with that premise.

[Man walks into a lawyer's office, says nothing, buts hands the lawyer a
small file. Lawyer reads it with concern.

OK, mister. Let's see if I understand this right. You committed adultery,
and now she's suing you for your *CENSORED*?

Man, says nothing, but nods.

Right. Let's see, this is a tough case. But I think we can plea-bargain it
down to your left arm and a divorce. Unless of course you want to make a
counter-claim for emotional distress caused by this lawsuit. Tell me, did
she live up to her marital vows? That might help in forming another
counter-claim.
]

Ok, maybe that campaign would be a bad idea.


> Societies with 7+ will have trouble finding off-world trading parties,
and
> their overall trade should be below average.

You know, I imagined the USA to be a good example of a LL-7/8 country on
this scale when I wrote it :)

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 13:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:37:43 EST
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
Message-ID: <bc.20e75cfb.298d45a7@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 13:07:48 GMT Standard Time, 
fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk writes:


> > > 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
> > >     and enforced only by private means.
> >
> >    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> >    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> 
> I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
> for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
> non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
> the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
> lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
> for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
> of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
> intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
> criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
> most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
> 

I know that there have been private prosecutions for murder in the UK. The 
Stephen Lawrence case is perhaps the best known but I believe the families of 
the victims of the Omagh bomb are trying to raise the money to do it.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:08:05  0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>

Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
on *me*!) :^)

    - Mark C.

Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament to be carrying. I
 carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.


Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:27:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <200202011634.g11GYbt00975@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1abf5$d6bc81e0$7d4e8a90@computer>

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.

I have a fairly strong feeling that this story may not be true.

There are plenty of good stories about Bakunin which are true, though.  He
was a total headcase.

Apart from anything else, he had a lovely fondness for conspiracies.  His
model of anarchist organisation considered of a strictly hierarchical
international secret society that would manipulate the masses into achieving
anarchist goals.  At the head of this secret society would be a single
faceless supreme leader, chosen by the inner circle of the conspiracy...
Unkind and cynical people suggested that Bakunin might have had a suitable
candidate in mind for this position.

In case anyone wants to use this information to engage in a spot of
anarchist baiting, I should point out that most present day anarchists
aren't Bakuninists.  In fact, they're mostly just kids, with very little
grasp of politics beyond the level of "the way things are now is wrong".

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:41:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:41:14  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <PPOKGAIONGELDBAA@angelfire.com>


Tim wrote that:
Low-pop worlds have a much higher fraction of trade, almost
exclusively with their nearest high-pop neighbours.  If trade were to
be cut off with a high-pop world (and no other changes were to be
made), it is far more likely that most of the low-pop worlds nearby
would collapse economically with no significant effect on the target
of the embargoed world.

Such an outcome would be politically unacceptable.  In order to
prevent this, the Imperium would have to heavily subsidize and
substitute products from further away.  In the end, I think the cost
to the Imperium of such an action would be far higher than the cost to
Trin.

Note that the taxes paid by Trin to the Imperium are almost certainly
higher than its total trade volume!  It seems to me that the only
economic downside to Trin of refusing to pay taxes is the virtual
certainty of the protection racket ... er, Imperium ... coming in and
burning their house down.


I appreciate that this all tems form acnon material. 
However, if a system does not suffer when cut off from the Imperium, why would it bother signing up in the first place? It does make the Imperium seem a mostly pointless organisation that extracts money from people to do appproximately buggerall in response.

I'd say that inorder for the Imperium to be a viable concept and one that the high pop woulds would sign up to there has to be some benefit to membership. Therefore there has to be a detrimental effect from being cut off. It seems this goes in the face of the canon (I've not read Far Trader) but if it does then there seems to be a glaring hole in the canon.

Awaiting flame
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 10:25:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:25:09 -0000
Subject: [TML] Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
References: <3C59E92D.9200.47FDC3@localhost> <00a101c1aa83$95b9bd20$5c71893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <000201c1abfa$e1d6a9c0$0200a8c0@imogen>

Fabian wrote:
> As for public monitoring/cameras, the transparently bogus rationale
> is that if reduces violent crime against person, or at least fear
> of that. I was specifically thinking of integrated camera networks
> that are linked to police observation centres, not merely a bunch
> of cameras that individual companies have enabled, even if those
> non-integrated cameras have much the same coverage. Even given
> that, the UK does deserve an 8 on this scale, and is working hard
> to reach a 9. I don't think that those cameras in NZ are all
> linked to a central observation point and controlled by the police?
> They really here are in England.

Hmmm, last year (or  was  it  the  year  before)  police  in  the
Lewisham Council area (London) were running a pilot scheme  where
all the high street cameras were  linked  to  an  automated  face
recognition system.  At  the  time  they  were  reporting  a  25%
success rate at detecting known trouble akers entering the  area.
Does anyone know what became of this?  Is  it  being  implemented
elsewhere?

ObTrav: Just an observation, on worlds with a high LL  you  might
find the crossing points of the starport  XT-line  more  resemble
Checkpoint Charlie than an  ordinary  airport  passport  control.
The Imperials on one side, the locals on the  other  ...  looking
for political dissidents trying to flee and seek asylum.

Regards PLST







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 15:04:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:04:35 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16WptD-0008KG-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> very reasonable fashion.
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>
Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
110...

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 15:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:56:18 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020202085618.A20573@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
> Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
> with such data.

Fairly close.  The library stores & reads data in an XML-like format.
It's not Mr. Preston's format, and in fact to support that format
would no doubt require a bit of reworking.  Which wouldn't necessarily
be a Bad Thing...

The library itself is actually finished (or rather, my first cut at
the features a library needs is finished).  I am now trying to write a
frontend using GNOME/gtk+/libtrav/libtravguile/C/guile.

Incidentally, if anyone here has experience with gtk+, please give me
a holler.  I'm having a deuce of a time with GtkCTrees.

> My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
> to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
> individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
> with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
> should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.

I actually did something similar with Perl & MySQL about a year ago.
It was fairly slow, but that was no doubt due to my data
representation.  It was very cool, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:05:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:59:25PM -0800
References: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com> <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020202090522.B20573@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:59:25PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> 
> "In a word, we reject all legislation, all authority, and all
> privileged, licensed and legal powers over us, . . ." Michael
> Alekxandrovich Bakunin (1814-1876)

The correct answer to which is, `Fine, fine.  No trouble here.  In
fact, we'll help you out.  We remove from you the protection of the
State, and the yoke of the State.  We do hereby declare you an outlaw,
to neither be guarded nor punished by Our power.'

Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:23:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202112156.00b81e60@mail.charter.net>

As long as you are a law abiding member of society, as much as makes you 
feel comfortable.

Personally, I carry the Gerber multi-plier because I prefer it to the 
Leatherman.
I wouldn't carry both, but that's just me.

At 02:08 PM 2/2/2002 +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
>of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
>Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
>an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
>on *me*!) :^)
>
>     - Mark C.
>
>Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament 
>to be carrying. I
>  carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and 
> a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.
>
>
>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
>armament to carry round in public?
>---
>Shan Andy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:49:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:49:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>; from shanhat@angelfire.com on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 02:08:05PM +0000
References: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020202094930.F20573@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> > Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time of
> > the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> > Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and an
> > S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin' on
> > *me*!) :^)
>
> Have you considered professional help?  That's a scary amount of
> armament to be carrying.  I carry one swiss army knife and that's
> because it has a bottle opener and a crokscrew.  I feel over armed a
> lot of the time.

I dunno, most of it's not really armament.  The SpyderCo most likely
is, but the Gerber, Leatherman and Victorinox are tools.  The .38
certainly is.

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level
> of armament to carry round in public?

Given my druthers, a Leatherman on the back of my belt, a Beretta .40
on my hip and a dagger on my leg.  And a little Victorinox pocketknife
on my keyring--you know, the itty-bitty letter opener one with the
nail file and scissors.  I don't particularly care for concealed guns,
for several reasons, but I do support concealed knives (e.g. one on
the leg, possibly another under the arm or in a pocket).  In a more
perfect world it'd be permissible to carry swords and daggers on one's
belt--but as more than one philosopher has noted, it's a most
imperfect world indeed.

What do I typically carry?  Generally just my itty-bitty
pocketknife/keyfob.  At home I tend to carry my .40 on my belt if I
remember to put it on (I'm not atm, but that's because I'm wearing no
pants atm).  In my car I keep a little Beretta .22 in the glove
compartment.  I've a sword in my closet at home, but realistically I'd
rather take my chances with my .40.

I'm glad to say that I've not once needed a single one of my weapons.
But, in the immortal words of Sir Clarence Worley, `It's better to
have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and not have it.'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 17:54:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:54:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B88167CA.22EB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/2/02 2:08 PM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
> of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
> an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
> on *me*!) :^)
> 
> - Mark C.
> 
> Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament to be
> carrying. I
> carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and a
> crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> armament to carry round in public?
> ---

Usually I carry my Colt Mustang .380 and a knife.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:47:55 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B88167CA.22EB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGEKHCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> > armament to carry round in public?
> > ---
>
> Usually I carry my Colt Mustang .380 and a knife.
>
> Tod
> --
A Victorinox CyberTool, as carrying real _armament_ can get you in much
trouble over here in Germany and its quite handy to have a PC
assembling/dissassembling unit attached to ones belt.

Of course, I'd like to carry a taser, but they aren't available here, let
alone allowed.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:47:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:47:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>

Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:

>Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
>of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
>Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
>an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
>on *me*!) :^)
>
>     - Mark C.
>
>Have you considered professional help?

Constantly.  At every opportunity, I train under self-defense instructors 
that are *much* more qualified than I. :^)

>  That's a scary amount of armament to be carrying.

Aside from the S&W, I consider the rest of the items to be tools (including 
the SpyderCo.)

>I carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and 
>a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.

Ain't a free society grand? :^)

>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
>armament to carry round in public?

To reiterate my "tools" comment (above), I carry both the Multi-plier and 
the Leatherman because I've found myself in numerous situations where I 
needed 2 pairs of pliers to perform some task. I carry the Victronix 
primarily for the scissors, the corkscrew, and the small knife blade.  I 
carry a Surefire 9P flashlight because... well... it's a flashlight.  As 
for the SpyderCo, it's primary function is as a letter and box opener, but 
the main reason I carry it is in case of an emergency when I might need to 
get through a stuck seatbelt.  That half-serrated blade goes through nylon 
webbing like a hot knife through butter.

The S&W, OTOH, is strictly for self defense.  I think of it as the fire 
extinguisher that I hope I never have to use.



         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:59:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sinbad Sam)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:59:47 -0600
Subject: Re[2]: [TML] Mora up-port image
In-Reply-To: <B87CCB28.225AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B87CCB28.225AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1932540184.20020202125947@sbcglobal.net>

Hello Tod,

29 Jan 2002, 11:56:56 PM, you wrote:

>> PS: Tod, what's the widest diameter of Regina up?
>> 

TG> To be perfectly frank, I don't know.  I think I'll sit down and work on this
TG> right away.  Any suggestions on rules to build a highport?

TG> Tod

The only rules that specifically address this is GURPS:Starports, but you get
some ideas from Starports and then use what ever rules YTU uses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:08:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:08:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
>Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
>it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...

The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
turning down his radio...



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:20:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #116
In-Reply-To: <200202020105.g1215B704115@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
>canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
>is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
>at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
>production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
>lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.

According to _Rebellion_ Corridor has 16 regular fleets stationed in its 9
coreward subsectors (and none in the one that is administered from Vland,
btw). In addition there is evidence that another four full fleets are also
stationed there (the text is somewhat confused). My take is that the 34
fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are raised and maintained by the
worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat below the Imperial average in
strength) while the 20 Corridor fleets are mostly maintained (at
considerable cost) from further in towards the Imperial core (Vland
propably supplies a lot of the ships and men).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:26:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202142603.019df7b0@mail.charter.net>

Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!

At 08:08 PM 2/2/2002 +0100, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Robert A. Uhl writes:
> >Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
> >it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...
>
>The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
>turning down his radio...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:43:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:08:32PM +0100
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020202124309.A21925@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:08:32PM +0100, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
> >Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
> >it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...
> 
> The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
> turning down his radio...

Stranger things have happened.  Look into the reasons for babies being
killed...  It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless, don't you
think?  It also points out the absurdity of the anarchist position.
If Bakunin is free of the law, he can take what he wishes from
storeowners to feed and clothe himself.  They, being unable to take
him to law, could steal back--but he'd just steal back again.  The
only way to end the petty annoyance is to kill him.

Think about it: if you've a neighbour who cannot be made to move, who
cannot be fined, who cannot be imprisoned, who persists in playing
loud music, erecting a charnel house and dumps offal in your yard, how
long would it be until someone ended the nuisance permanently?
Perhaps one would move instead of slaying him.  But imagine that every
neighbour is like that.  Imagine that there is no escape.  The only
solution, the only way to begin to ensure an appropriate life, then,
is to kill the offenders.

This is the glory of law: that it punishes appropriately.  While the
final recourse of law is as it ever has been--death--it so very rarely
needs to go that far.  Thus the nuisance is hit with a punishment in
proportion to his crime, and is not made to die for his error.  This
is a great mercy.

Without law, there is only force.  And force unrestrained very quickly
escalates to the ultimate force.  Thus the error of anarchy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I sat around during the design phase going `this is going to suck so
badly that we're going to have to hold onto desks to stop us from being
drawn into the vortex.'                              --Chris Saunderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 20:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:11:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] build a highport
Message-ID: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Guys,

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:59:47 -0600 Sinbad Sam <sinbad@sbcglobal.net>
writes:
> Hello Tod,
> 
> TG>  Any suggestions on rules to build a highport?
> 
> The only rules that specifically address this is GURPS:Starports, 
> but you get some ideas from Starports and then use what ever
>  rules YTU uses.


I came up with a way to begin and expand highport construction in MTU. I
base it on two Stat Trek views.

1. A ship that has locking clamps like the Enterprise D's saucer section
being able to separate, though I'd place several connecting points around
the ship.

2. The Jupiter station of ST:V where Dr. Zimmerman was preparing to die.
It looked like six saucer sections, two stacks of three with connections
all around.

This for me at least, allowed me to send a 1,000dton  jump ship to a new
system, and establish an orbital presence. As the system grew another
1,000dton ship could arrive, dock, and with minimal work double its mass.
I can continue this process indefinitely. 

Constructions at home, or wherever the best place to build is. You ship
along what you need, refit areas that require it, but the station is
intact, defendable, and ready for use on arrival. Minor things like
platforms, and solar panels can be added as each ship arrives. A few
modular cutters to bring connecting walkways and elevators, and you've
got a fine station.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:34:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJKDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
>> very reasonable fashion.
>>
>> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>>
>Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
>average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
>110...
>
>regards,
>Stephan

I see no problem with that. It gives a reasonable explanation for higher
point characters.  This means longer life at higher TL's without resorting
to anagathics, which were made deliberately rare and expensive by the game
system. Not mention the inexplicable effect they had on increasing the risk
of death during jump. A game mechanic designed especially to limit PC
lifespan. I never liked it.

Realistically, in the U.S. at least, many people never develop athletically
until they are established financially. For every high school football
player there are two high school bookworms who find themselves with a
personal trainer at 30, in better shape than they ever were as pizza eating
teenagers.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 22:31:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:31:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201125734.00ace2f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
>an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
>peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
>Tigresses...
>
>Stephen
>(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
>adding insult to injury)

I know that this has been discussed before, both here and on the SJGames
boards. I thought that the consensus was that TCS was more applicable to
modeling small politics in the Imperial expansion period than the fleet
building capabilities of a "modern" (circa 1100) Imperial world.

An example might be the fleet construction levels of the United States
during the second world war, as compared to present day ship construction in
the U.S.

Also, I think that the division of assets for ship construction should be
discussed. In other words, who is paying for Trin's fleet and why are they
doing it? Is the cost of the fleet a significant percentage of Imperial
taxes? I would expect the numbers to be the other way around, with the cost
of the fleet much more than taxes. And will the Imperium stand around while
the fleet is being built?

It goes back to the old discussion of who commands the fleet? It appears
that the Imperial Naval Fleet is controlled at the Domain level, which means
that it works for the Archduke(Archduchess.)  So who controls the colonial
fleets? Are they controlled at the sector level? This would mean control by
the sector Dukes(Duchesses.) Finally, who controls the PDFs? The common
answer is the Imperial Member worlds, but who is this? Is this the local
world governments or is it the local Imperial delegation, meaning the low
level Nobles or legates.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 22:35:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:35:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
>external trading partners after all...
>
>
>- Tim

Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech worlds
must have external trading partners or their tech level will degrade.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:24:18 EST
Subject: [TML] Long awaited answer
Message-ID: <b0.215b0cc9.298dcf22@aol.com>

For years i have been waiting for the answer to one simple question, perhaps 
someone here can help..........

Supplement 13: Vetrans  In my copy page 34 is blank, so blank the page is not 
even numbered,  Does anyone have this book and can you tell me what is on the 
missing page.  I suppose it could have been just a blank page to seperate 
another section or the like, but if so you would think it would at least be 
numbered. My book goes from 33 to 35 with no 34 at all.

Please someone tell me whats on the missing page and if i am missing 
something could someone please scan that 1 page for me.

thank you


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:40:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:40:44 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16X9l6-0002mt-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de> wrote:
> 
> > Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> > very reasonable fashion.
> >
> > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> >
> Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will
> have an average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and
> well up to about 110...

I'd actually greatly prefer this sort of Imperium, it is the high-tech far 
future after all.  IMHO, the best way to limit characters is to simply 
put a limit on how many terms a PC can have served (say 5 or 6) 
instead of using aging.  YMMV.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:16:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:16:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>
>> Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
>> Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
>> governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
>> governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.
>
>That's a viable answer, but leads to some problems:
>
>1)  Not all governments are headed by hereditary nobles; for extreme
examples,
>the solomani rim has 3 hi-pop participatory democracies and 4 hi-pop
>representative democracies).  Given that the subsector duke is a hereditary
>position, while the head of government may not be, what happens when the
>subsector duke and the head of government clash?
>
Under most conditions political infighting, under extreme conditions: a
visit from an independent mercenary hit squad.

>2)  What happens when the interests of the Imperium and the interests of a
>single Hi-pop world conflict?  Even if it's a single leader, juggling hats
can
>be a problem.

I really don't see why they should conflict. The "Hi-Pop World" has no
interests. The Imperium has no interests, unless it be the interests of the
Emperor. It's the people involved who have the interest. An Imperial Noble's
interest is no doubt the same as the interests of world leaders today. How
much money can I get away with? How can I make this society into what I
think it should be? How can I prevent these other people from stopping me?

The real question here is: What do the leaders of Trin have to gain by not
paying their Imperial Taxes? How can they convince the people they rule that
its more worthwhile to pay for a large war fleet than pay a smaller amount
to the Imperium who will then take care of the pesky war fleet requirements?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:28:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:28:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <003801c1abf5$d6bc81e0$7d4e8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

Personally I'm just too lazy for anarchy. The construction of an
impenetrable compound, the lugging about of a large automatic weapon and a
few hundred pounds of ammunition The constant guarding of my wife and
daughters every time they want to leave the house, or worse yet their
constant presence, because its unsafe for them to go out alone. Not to
mention the construction of my own well, generator and septic tank. I'd
really hate the constant raids I'd have to carry out on the local farmers
for food. How tiring.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:57:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:57:39 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012504748.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEOCCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Jackson
> Sent: 31 January 2002 19:19
>
> We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about
> the interaction
> between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
> nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of
> just what the
> subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system
> defense fleet
> would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).
>
> Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
> member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who
> often control
> upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can
> pretty much
> tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

they might be able to tell the Subsector Navy to take a flying leap, but I
doubt they could tell that to the Sector navy.

> Given the noninterventionist rules of the Imperium (and the utter lack of
> consistency in sub-Imperial government), I'm inclined to view the Imperial
> government as rather weak, with power concentrated more in the hands of
> individual worlds than in the hands of the Imperium; think of the
> Imperium as
> NATO plus the EU (or the WTO).  OTOH, the feel of the game
> doesn't suggest that
> the Imperium is all that weak (though this may be because most
> Traveller games
> don't occur on major worlds; the Imperium can fail to have much
> control over
> Hi-pop worlds and still pretty thoroughly intimidate lower
> population worlds).

The Imperium would react to any attempt to not pay taxes at multiple levels,
the last of which is extreme military force, the political fallout of having
a Hi Pop world interfere with Trade (by not paying taxes) would be much
worse than that caused by the Imperium defeating and occupying said planet.

I would imagine the Imperium would pursue a multi pronged policy here:-

Diplomatic measures to the target planet (and most importantly with local
planets and sector Hi pop planets and nobles) their aim would be to resolve
the issue (read get the taxes) and if not to politically isolate the planet.

Undercover personnel would investigat6e the possibility of a governmental
change (voluntary or not).

Propoganda units (sorry public info units) would try and persuade public
opinion to support the Imperium.

Trade would be severely curtailed through (initially) pressures on local
traders and the Megacorps, the Spaceport could suddenly start taking _Much_
longer to process viutally needed supplies.  incentives could be annouced
making trade with a competitor much motre attractive.

Militay units would be deployed in the local area (both public and
secretely) to increase pressure and concentrate thinking, as well as
enabling immediate action when given the green light.

TAS would probably Amber zone the planet immediately, with possible economic
consequences.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:58:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:58:06 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <b7.1b022198.298dd70e@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 14:35:08 GMT Standard Time, abradley1@bigpond.com 
writes:


> > From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> > Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> > respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> > under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 
> I have a fairly strong feeling that this story may not be true.
> 
> There are plenty of good stories about Bakunin which are true, though.  He
> was a total headcase.
> 
> Apart from anything else, he had a lovely fondness for conspiracies.  His
> model of anarchist organisation considered of a strictly hierarchical
> international secret society that would manipulate the masses into 
> achieving
> anarchist goals.  At the head of this secret society would be a single
> faceless supreme leader, chosen by the inner circle of the conspiracy...
> Unkind and cynical people suggested that Bakunin might have had a suitable
> candidate in mind for this position.

I suspect this story originates from Bakunin's association with the terrorist 
Nechaev, who was to say the least an unpleasant character. You're right 
Bakunin was a contradictory character with few redeeming features, 
particularly when you take his profound racism (particularly anti-semitism) 
into account.

> 
> In case anyone wants to use this information to engage in a spot of
> anarchist baiting, I should point out that most present day anarchists
> aren't Bakuninists.  In fact, they're mostly just kids, with very little
> grasp of politics beyond the level of "the way things are now is wrong".
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com

All radical parties tend to attract disaffected teenagers. It's part of 
growing up. Most don't stay involved for long after they discover that 
radical politics are not necessarily good for pulling the opposite sex. 
Unfortunately some of us stay involved long after our sell by date.

Old anarchists don't die, body parts just set up on their own*.

Charles

*Usually, in us men, led by the prostate gland...

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:01:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <7f.20ffcd3c.298dd7d1@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 19:53:28 GMT Standard Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Stranger things have happened.  Look into the reasons for babies being
> killed...  It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless, don't you
> think?  It also points out the absurdity of the anarchist position.
> If Bakunin is free of the law, he can take what he wishes from
> storeowners to feed and clothe himself.  They, being unable to take
> him to law, could steal back--but he'd just steal back again.  The
> only way to end the petty annoyance is to kill him.
> 
> Think about it: if you've a neighbour who cannot be made to move, who
> cannot be fined, who cannot be imprisoned, who persists in playing
> loud music, erecting a charnel house and dumps offal in your yard, how
> long would it be until someone ended the nuisance permanently?
> Perhaps one would move instead of slaying him.  But imagine that every
> neighbour is like that.  Imagine that there is no escape.  The only
> solution, the only way to begin to ensure an appropriate life, then,
> is to kill the offenders.
> 
> This is the glory of law: that it punishes appropriately.  While the
> final recourse of law is as it ever has been--death--it so very rarely
> needs to go that far.  Thus the nuisance is hit with a punishment in
> proportion to his crime, and is not made to die for his error.  This
> is a great mercy.
> 
> Without law, there is only force.  And force unrestrained very quickly
> escalates to the ultimate force.  Thus the error of anarchy.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 

Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive 
anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will be 
by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology than we 
have at the moment.

I doubt I'll live to see it.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:10:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:10:52 -0000
Subject: [TML] Sig Files
In-Reply-To: <3C59CBFE.D4B86DA6@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEOCCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

OK I've given up searching for this programme, any idea where I can find it?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of alan spik
> Sent: 31 January 2002 22:58
>
> TaglinePro is the one I use. Its Freeware.....Ohhhh....Free!
>
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> If a man who cannot count finds a four-leaf clover, is he entitled
> to happiness?
>            -Stanislaw Lec
>

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:38:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:38:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202030038.QAA10594@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:

>>It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
>>external trading partners after all...
>>
>>
>>- Tim
>
>Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech worlds
>must have external trading partners or their tech level will degrade.

In competing canon, the Darrians didn't need much.

We don't have much canon on how heavily populated the pre-collapse Imperium
was; there's a difference between pop-6 colony worlds and pop-A major worlds.
It's quite possible that simultaneous economic failures on Terra and Vland
would have brought the whole mess down, because most other worlds were 
still relatively lightly developed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:44:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:14:13 +1030 (CST)
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202031111160.13470-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Stephan:

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> > Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> > very reasonable fashion.
> >
> > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> >
> Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
> average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
> 110...
>
> regards,
> Stephan

 One of the first things that I thought I saw in the game, CT, when I
first looke at the books long ago. That being it appeared the lifetime of
the Imperial Citizens of the higher tech levels would have ages over 150.
I have played that in my games and the rich ones at 123 still looking like
they are 23. Always wondered if I had misse something, or had been too
creative IMTU.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:12:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:12:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJODKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>      "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force
>> Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA
Mora
>>  and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all
>> the  time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."
>
>Raising parties can easily wind up costing the attacker more than the
defender.
>>
>>      Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd
simply
>> jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the
>> journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them
in
>>  the war zone itself.
>>      Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora
could
>>  be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.
>
>Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 jumps
at
>J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on Mora isn't
an
>Imperial army, it belongs to Mora.

Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:23:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:23:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202142603.019df7b0@mail.charter.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020202162337.006af4dc@mindspring.com>

At 02:26 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!

*snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                        --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:32:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:32:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
In-Reply-To: <00e701c1abe7$35c3bd20$d47a893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJPDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>
>>    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>>    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>
>I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
>for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
>non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
>the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
>lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
>for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
>of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
>intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
>criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
>most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
>
This is quite common in the U.S., mostly because criminal courts require
both a beyond reasonable doubt level of proof and a unanimous jury for
conviction, but civil courts only require a probable level of proof and a
majority. O.J. Simpson is one example.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 01:22:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:22:37 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJKDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHCEKLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> I see no problem with that. It gives a reasonable explanation for higher
> point characters.  This means longer life at higher TL's without resorting
> to anagathics, which were made deliberately rare and expensive by the game
> system. Not mention the inexplicable effect they had on
> increasing the risk
> of death during jump. A game mechanic designed especially to limit PC
> lifespan. I never liked it.
>

I didn't like that, too. Seems that we all here agree that the low lifespan
of CT is a bit unrealistic - I never saw a reason why it had to be this way.

Regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 01:22:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:22:38 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16X9l6-0002mt-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> I'd actually greatly prefer this sort of Imperium, it is the
> high-tech far
> future after all.  IMHO, the best way to limit characters is to simply
> put a limit on how many terms a PC can have served (say 5 or 6)
> instead of using aging.  YMMV.
>
ACK. This aging rolls of CT always gave me the creeps. I like the GURPS
method very much. Indeed, in some campaigns (not Traveller) I encourage the
players to take Longevity or such - it costs points and has no real
advantage for them ;-) (after all, most campaigns don't last _that_ long)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:29:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:29:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <008501c1ac62$f88f5500$bdd1d63f@customer>

> >From: "John Scarlett"
> >
> >I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled
and
> >unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

>From Glenn
> As they say in the Consulate, if you can't have good psi conditioning, at
> least you can have art.  Poor Imperials.  Poor Solomani.

I've been psi conditioned, I'd rather have art.

Teauearl, male aslan, Enemy of Zho trash




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:33:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <200202030233.SAA27987@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:

>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Of course, it's sort of dependent on _why_ Trin has decided to kick up a
fuss.  It's quite possible that Mora thinks lower taxes would be a great
idea too...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:48:00 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #116
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3c5fa0e2.52032716@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

>My take is that the 34
>fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are raised and maintained by the
>worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat below the Imperial average in
>strength) 

Considering that this is one of the Imperium's most threatened and
vulnerable borders, wouldn't it make sense for it to receive support
from the core worlds?  

After all, wealthy and peaceful sectors like Core, Ilelish, Verge,
Gushemege, etc can easily support huge fleets, and if they stay at
home what are they going to do?  Mount fancy parades for the local
duke?  Chase pirates?  Fight a massive genocidal civil war that tears
the Imperium into pieces?  Much better to send them out to defend the
Marches and the Rim, surely...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:47:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:47:58 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:

>where have you found budgets for the navy? I've been trying to figure out how big
>my fleet really is. What is the budget canonaicly(sp?)

Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget of
about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30% of
this is taken by the Imperium in taxes, leaving Trin with MCr
8,540,000 per year. (TCS doesn't account for Imperial taxes at all).

The fleet is ten times a single year's budget, or 85 trillion credits'
worth.  That buys you 235 Tigresses (or about 79,000 Kinunirs).

(The Striker formula is GNP = population x per capita income, which is
Cr22,000 for a TL 15 world x 1.4 for an industrial world.  Military
budget is 3% of this, navy budget is 60% of that).(GT:FTsays that per
capita income at this tech level is only Cr15,000.  No idea why they
changed it.)


It seems obvious that in the OTU, high-population worlds do *not*
devote 3% of their GNP to defence - it seems like 0.3% would be a
closer figure.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:48:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:48:01 GMT
Subject: [TML] build a highport
In-Reply-To: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3c60a30a.52584471@post.demon.co.uk>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>I came up with a way to begin and expand highport construction in MTU. I
>base it on two Stat Trek views.
[...]
>A few
>modular cutters to bring connecting walkways and elevators, and you've
>got a fine station.


Designing Vincennes' highport using GT:S is turning out to be fun...
Take the largest hull size available (3 million dtons).  Now orbit ten
of them around each other in a stable configuration.  Now duplicate
the entire structure three times...

And since the world's population and economy are growing at a
sustained 1% per annum (according to RSB, anyway) prepare to build an
entire new highport the same size in a century's time ;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
armament to carry round
>in public?

It depends on the context, of course.  I never go anywhere without a Gerber
LST (except court, airplanes, and the like).  Sometimes I carry a back-up
folder, but I lost my K-9 some years ago.  (I once worked for a guy from
Sweden, who, on finding out about my Finnish heritage, noted that the
Swedes' prejudice of the Finns is that they always have their knives and are
always ready to use them -- whereupon I showed him the two folding knives I
had in my pocket and the puukko in my backpack.  (It was just luck that I
had the puukko, as it was a Friday and I was going camping that weekend, and
leaving straight from work.))

When correctly viewed, just about everything is a weapon.  My steel pen and
steel belt buckle and my hard-edged and hard-soled shoes can go anywhere
with me.  My nylon briefcase has a strap.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: knightsky@juno.com
>
>I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's basically an 'A'
>superimposed on a circle.

So those Adventure Team G.I. Joes from the 1970s were actually anarchists,
and Hasbro was trying to subvert a generation of boys.  I always thought so.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
>turning down his radio...

Or maybe a very loud radio, for a very long time.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
>
>> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
>
>damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...

I was visualizing you wrapping the film itself around your body, kind of
like a mummy.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:25:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:25:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <B881EDAF.2301E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/2/02 10:47 AM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:

> To reiterate my "tools" comment (above), I carry both the Multi-plier and
> the Leatherman because I've found myself in numerous situations where I
> needed 2 pairs of pliers to perform some task. I carry the Victronix
> primarily for the scissors, the corkscrew, and the small knife blade.  I
> carry a Surefire 9P flashlight because... well... it's a flashlight.

An invaluable tool.  I usually keep my 6p in my coat pocket.

> As 
> for the SpyderCo, it's primary function is as a letter and box opener, but
> the main reason I carry it is in case of an emergency when I might need to
> get through a stuck seatbelt.  That half-serrated blade goes through nylon
> webbing like a hot knife through butter.

IMHO, serrated edges are for people who can't sharpen a knife (no offense).
I prefer a plain blade hone on a surgical black.
 
> The S&W, OTOH, is strictly for self defense.  I think of it as the fire
> extinguisher that I hope I never have to use.

First rule of a gunfight: have a gun.  I like my little mouse gun as it's so
small and light I never have an excuse not to carry it.  I figure that 6
rounds of MagSafe better do the job, hoping, like you, I never need to find
out.

It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>
>
>Realistically, in the U.S. at least, many people never develop athletically
>until they are established financially. For every high school football
>player there are two high school bookworms who find themselves with a
>personal trainer at 30, in better shape than they ever were as pizza eating
>teenagers.

My own story goes somewhat as you describe.

>From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
>
>Glen. So that's real life. Now roll up a classic Traveller character as
>old as you are complete with aging rolls. Strength 1, Constitution 1...

This is the classic "ob Traveller":  translating statistics into real life.
I think my UPP numbers would be 7799C9 today.  At age 18 (after high
school), 555866.  At age 22(after college), 6669A8.  At age 26 (after four
years as nurseryman, cabinetmaker, and construction worker), 8699A8.  At age
30 (after graduate school and law school), 6699C8.  At age 34 (after working
for a few years), 6799C9 (I noticed an increase in manual dexterity during
this time).  At age 38 (after working for a few more years), 5789C9.  At age
42 (after three years of hapkido, general physical training, and working
fewer hours per year, but also developing astigmatism), 7799C9.

I would certainly play an adventurer with those statistics, but as to
skills, I'm not sure I want to play a character whose main asset is
litigation-4 (I do that in real life already).  Some of my real life skills
I would certainly keep:  admin, foil, melee combat, handgun, wheeled vehicle
(internal combustion), even skiing (cross-country and telemark) and
equestrian (horse).  Wheeled vehicle (bicycle), horticulture, and cabinet
making are probably not too useful to a Traveller adventurer.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:41:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] build a highport
Message-ID: <20020202.194106.-183833.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Stephen
> Designing Vincennes' highport using GT:S is turning out to be fun...
> Take the largest hull size available (3 million dtons).  Now orbit 
> ten
> of them around each other in a stable configuration.  Now duplicate
> the entire structure three times...

Gee that's big, have you determined its overall size?
How large is Vincennes?
What's the orbital distance from surface to highport?
How much suunlight is being deflected, thus not reaching Vincennes?
If a lot, what possible cooling is there on Vincennes?

I know, I'm rambling...


Turokan
---------------
We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:58:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:58:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aussi and Kiwi gun fans
Message-ID: <B881F57B.23055%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Sorry to butt in, but I know the TML has lots of Austrailian, New Zealand,
etc members who may be able to help me out (or possibly some others on this
list).  I am looking for info on the Austrailian Leader T-2 Assault rifle.
Specifically, I'm hoping to find details, drawings or pictures of the T-2
bolt assembly.  Appreciate any information.

Rupert?

Thanks,

Tod

We now return you to Traveller
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:11:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <20020202.201148.-183833.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Glenn

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:33 -0800 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>  At age 42 (after three years of hapkido, general physical
> training, and working fewer hours per year, but also
> developing astigmatism), 7799C9.
> 
> I would certainly play an adventurer with those statistics, 
> --Glenn

Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller forgot
to include..

"The will and determination of improving one's life, while life carries
on."

I was a high school football, tennis, weightlifter athlete. Though it
brought my physical stats to 999 before joining the Army, I improved to
possibly AAB. However, from 1975 to 1993 I decreased steadily down too
788. Then I was hit at age 40 with Lou Gherig's disease. My unfortunate
stats now at age 48 in 2002 are 101, and falling. Next week I order a
wheelchair.

It seems to me that Traveller expects people to become invalids? Yet
Traveller also expects you to pay a 40 year payment on a starship, AFTER
you retire from active duty. Go figure?


Turokan
------------
We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:55:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:55:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <b6.5ea4116.298e1cc2@aol.com>

> As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of 
>  comment riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. 
>  It is about having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying 
>  anarchists.

I feel slightly irritated when people make jokes about my political beliefs 
also, but I get over it. Just revel in the knowledge that you are a follower 
of the true path . . . as I do.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:00:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:00:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #117
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c1ac6f$b712e260$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >
> >    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> >    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>
> I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
> for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
> non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
> the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
> lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
> for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
> of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
> intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
> criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
> most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
>
>
> I know that there have been private prosecutions for murder in the UK. The
> Stephen Lawrence case is perhaps the best known but I believe the families
of
> the victims of the Omagh bomb are trying to raise the money to do it.
>
>This is quite common in the U.S., mostly because criminal courts require
>both a beyond reasonable doubt level of proof and a unanimous jury for
>conviction, but civil courts only require a probable level of proof and a
>majority. O.J. Simpson is one example.

I was going to cite the latter as well.  But there are lesser examples, like
defamation, fraud, and intentional infliction of emotional distress, which
may have no criminal analogs.

> >    9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
> >  10 - Punitive strict liability.
>
> Is this where a doctor or other professional carer causes injury? I'm not
> familiar with legal jargon.
>
It's liability for injury even though the person doing the harm exercised
care not to hurt anyone.  Say, for example, holding the owner of dog liable
for any damages caused by its bite, even if a fence is built around the
doghouse and warning signs are posted conspicuously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:59:13 EST
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
Message-ID: <163.82c064e.298e1da1@aol.com>

> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
still has nightmares . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:11:03 EST
Subject: [TML] Knives.
Message-ID: <c1.1b368b06.298e2067@aol.com>

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
> armament to carry round in public?

Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my father 
gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a 
phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.

Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly 
knife. 

[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]

He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and 
took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself a 
good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:15:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:15:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
In-Reply-To: <200201311811.g0VIBq629907@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203000217.025a7620@mail.qrc.com>


>David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:31:25, David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
>The whole thing boils down to what the Maximum CP Input line on the 
>computers chart means. My position is it is the maximum CPs before being 
>multiplied and General T. is of the opinion that it is the maximum CPs 
>after the multiplyer.

That's my take on the discussion, as well, and I interpret the rule the 
same way you (David) do.  It's been a while since I worked with the MT 
design rules (I didn't like them very much), but it was my impression that 
the Max CP Input is the maximum control panel input before multiplication 
(and not the maximum control point output of the computer for purposes of 
controlling the vessel).

It is also my impression that (should you so desire) that it is 
theoretically possible to build a flyable ship without a computer - but it 
would require so many control panels as to be impractical to build.  You 
add a computer (which multiplies the effect of the installed control 
panels) to reduce the requirement.

>By the Turokan interpretation the greatest possible cost of a TL 15 ship
>would then be MCr 666,666 [... and by] my formulation the greatest 
>possible cost for a TL 15 ship would be MCr 80,000,000

The figure of MCr 666,666 is too low; it is quite possible (and maybe even 
reasonable) for single large ships at TL-15 to exceed this cost.  The 
conventional (albeit High Guard based) wisdom is for a ship to cost 
approximately MCr1/dton ... by this rule of thumb, ships of up to at least 
MCr 1,000,000 should be buildable.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:20:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:20:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Writing again
Message-ID: <148.8ddabd4.298e228e@aol.com>

> >Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!
>  
>  *snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
>  expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
>  office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.

Doug's writing again . . . hmmmmm . . . wonder what it is.*

LKW

* This is trolling . . . I happen to know what he's writing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:20:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:20:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Long awaited answer
In-Reply-To: <b0.215b0cc9.298dcf22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1ac72$8af13f80$2f7de40c@loki>

No page 34 in the reprints.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:42:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:42:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Knives.
In-Reply-To: <c1.1b368b06.298e2067@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203003727.01597858@mail.charter.net>

At 12:11 AM 2/3/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> > armament to carry round in public?
>Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my father
>gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a
>phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.
>Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly
>knife.
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and
>took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself a
>good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .

These are the kids who cycle out of dojos so fast it's almost a shame you 
don't get more time to watch them embarrass themselves.

Of course these are the same idiots who will blame the school for not 
teaching them how to perform those moves without the wires...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:07:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200201312030.g0VKUOH18863@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203004135.0259d8f0@mail.qrc.com>

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:19:08, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the 
>interaction between the Imperium and its member worlds

Sounds interesting!

>the specific example involved nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, 
>and the question of just what the subsector duke can do about this 
>problem, since Trin's system defense fleet would chew up and spit out the 
>subsector fleet).

It sounds like the subsector duke has a problem in relating with (dealing 
with) the nobility in his subsector - specifically whomever is responsible 
for Trin (and/or those who have fiefdoms there).  Ideally, the subsector 
duke should have made sure that the sector duke is aware of the problem, 
and formulated contingency plans.

If things have gotten to the point where Trin is in active rebellion and 
military action is the only solution, then the problem is bigger than the 
subsector.  In this case, the subsector duke is cut out of the picture 
(possibly with some sort of reprimand) by the sector duke, who amasses such 
forces as are sufficient for the problem, and applies them.  This could 
(for example) include a "remote blockade" of Trin*, or a direct application 
of Naval force.  While Trin's system defense fleet might outgun the 
subsector's fleet, it doesn't outgun the combined regular and reserve 
fleets of it's own and the surrounding subsectors.  Remember - the Imperium 
is aware (possibly in exact detail) of the strength of Trin's system 
defenses.  Unless the nobility is stupid+, they will wait to marshal 
sufficient forces to have a strong chance of victory.  While Trin may be 
able to outproduce the rest of it's subsector, it can't outproduce the 
total of the Imperial worlds of the Marches.

* A remote blockade would consist of Naval forces in worlds within J-2 or 
J-4 of Trin ensuring that no ships jump on a vector that would take them to 
Trin.  Such a blockade would not be 100% effective - but would stop 75%-90% 
of the system's traffic.  Presumably this would have an economic effect.

+ A distinct possibility, in that they allowed the government of one of the 
subsector's high-population world to become so unhappy as to be in open 
rebellion with the Imperium.

>Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often control upwards of 50% of the total 
>production of the subsector, and can pretty much tell the subsector navy 
>to take a flying leap).

The Imperium is bigger than a subsector, so IMHO it's a bad idea to 
consider the response as being limited by just that.  In a non-Imperial 
situation, a subsector's high-population worlds are likely to control 
polities of that size.  In the Imperium, there are other high-population 
worlds out there, and their combined production can steamroller any single 
world.

Given the size of the Imperium, this force takes time to bring to 
bear.  Therefore, it's quite possible for a world to believe that it's 
rebellion is succeeding (or, at least, that the Imperium is unwilling to 
apply force).  Initial skirmishes between system defense forces and local 
naval assets will almost certainly be victorious.  It may take the Imperium 
months to amass the required forces for a strike - months where the rebels 
think they've won.  When the Imperium does move, it will certainly be with 
overwhelming force.

>I'm inclined to view the Imperial government as rather weak, with power 
>concentrated more in the hands of individual worlds than in the hands of 
>the Imperium

My view is that the Imperium is quite strong, but for various reasons 
normally does not have a strong presence on member worlds.  This is partly 
on the theory that the government that governs least governs best, and 
partly because I doubt that the local nobility (to say nothing of 
megacorporate interests) likes having the Navy watch over their shoulders.

>the Imperium can fail to have much control over Hi-pop worlds and still 
>pretty thoroughly intimidate lower population worlds).

That's true.  In the case of non-high-population worlds, there isn't much 
doubt: the subsector fleet can deal with the problem.  It is only with high 
population worlds that there is even a significant question.

I'd suggest that as a practical matter, Imperial policy tends to align well 
with that of the high-population worlds.  The Imperium tends to do whatever 
is good for interstellar trade, commerce, and the megacorporations.  The 
high-population worlds are the best markets, production, and trading 
centers - what is good for them is also good for trade, commerce, and the 
megacorporations.  It is probably also true that the bulk of the nobility 
will come from, represent, or have fiefdoms on, high-population worlds, 
also making it more likely that the attitudes and interests of the nobility 
correspond with those of the high-population worlds as well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:15:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224800.00bcc2c0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202221146.00ab0ec0@mail.verizon.net>

How-do!

I've got a question about the USD size parameter in QSDS. I was spending 
some time in the airport today playing with QSDS and trying to use the Big 
Book of Hulls. In comparing the tables, I noticed that the Size column was 
missing so I began to wonder what the criteria was for determining size. 
I'm not able to get to my Traveller books just yet, so any insight into how 
this works would be appreciated. FWIW, I'm putting together a small 
cross-platform application that I'm planning on posting with source code 
for folks to rip up (if they like) and pass on comments for improvements 
(if they like).

Best regards,

Charles McKnight

At 10:48 PM 1/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.
>
>OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
>columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
>fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?
>
>Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
>a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
>you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?
>
>>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as 
>>seperate projects is a mistake.
>
>I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
>QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
>Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS 
>- it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
>complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.
>
>
>   --- Derek Wildstar
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:16:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] BBT 4.4 Van & Viv
Message-ID: <00b201c1ac82$c2a4f100$4cd2d63f@customer>

> Viviana steps out of the lift and walks out in to the lobby, looking for
Van.

Van sees Viviana and goes to her.  "Good to see you again. I was affraid I
might be late, I hate to keep people waiting."  Vans a little nervous.

Van



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:22:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:22:45 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020203172245.A10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
> degrade.

Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?
;^>


As you might guess, I'm not a big fan of that particular premise.

I'm also not quite sure how a trade level of typically 0.1% of GWP
becomes so critical.  Surely if something is absolutely necessary for
the survival of planetary civilization in the medium term and cannot
be substituted locally, it's got to make up more than 0.1% of GWP!

According to the Free Trader formulas, there are even a few high-tech
worlds with total trade volume making up only 0.01% of GWP.  This
isn't like the USA needing trade with the rest of the world to sustain
themselves; this is like the USA being absolutely dependent upon trade
with Luxembourg!

As I said in an earlier post, there is no Earthly analog for the
amazingly low trade volumes depicted by Free Trader.  They stretch
credibility.  Further describing them as essential to a civilization's
very survival stretches (my) suspension of disbelief beyond breaking
point.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:56:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:56:42 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Andrew Whincup wrote :

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?

In normal circumstances, nothing.

It's too easy to kill people _without_ weapons, and I can't
afford to get into trouble with the law.

I usually only carry weapons when going to archery, fencing, and
SCA events.

When I go bush I take a Victorinox, a hand axe,  and usually a
couple of other appropriate blades. On rare occassions, I'll
actually carry a rifle, though as I don't own one, I'm usually
carrying it for someone else in the party.

Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:56:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:56:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote :
> >From: knightsky@juno.com
> >
> >I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's
> >basically an 'A' superimposed on a circle.

Which is funny, because that particular formulation was invented
as part of a marketing campaign in England in the seventies.

"Ooooiiiii wannnna beeee ....... Anarchy!"

> So those Adventure Team G.I. Joes from the 1970s were
> actually anarchists,and Hasbro was trying to subvert a
> generation of boys. I always thought so.

And it brings new meaning to the "A-Team"

Personally I also love the irony of the upside-down anarchy
symbol used by the Brujah Clan in White Wolf's "Vampire : the
Masquerade".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:59:03 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020203175903.B10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The real question here is: What do the leaders of Trin have to gain by not
> paying their Imperial Taxes?

Not a great deal, so long as the Imperium doesn't start making unwise
or unpopular expenditures of that tax money.


> How can they convince the people they rule that its more worthwhile
> to pay for a large war fleet than pay a smaller amount to the
> Imperium who will then take care of the pesky war fleet
> requirements?

The only problem is that Trin *does* pay for the war fleet, either
way.  Look at the GWP of all the planets nearby; economically the
subsector consists of Trin, and ... umm, Trin.  The second largest
economy is about 100 times smaller.  If you think of Trin as being the
US, the subsector consists mainly of countries smaller than Fiji.  The
next largest economy corresponds to roughly New Zealand.  The third
largest corresponds roughly to Tasmania.

Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:16:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget
> of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30%
> of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,

Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.
The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is
0.15% of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:06:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #114
In-Reply-To: <200202011634.g11GYbt00975@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203020425.025af070@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:21:12, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
 > 200 bottles would be 8 cases, a 6-pack and two singles.

Yes, my error.  In any case, that's a lot of beer.  The big question, 
though, is not how to brew it, but how to get it across the country.  The 
shipping on the beer could easily exceed the cost of the plane ticket for 
the brewmaster.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:55:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)

Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:55:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)

Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:46:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203011759.0261b800@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:57:05, "Bruce Macintosh"  wrote:
>Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how many
>you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints.

This is effectively "chunking" the area; it makes the numbers smaller, and 
might make things slightly simpler.  It could be confusing for old-timers 
(who are used to "1 hardpoint per 100 dtons"), since different hulls would 
have different numbers of "hardpoints".  The other problem is the "size" of 
the chunks?

A "standard" turret is 10 square meters, which makes a nice round number 
for dividing - but is 61 "hardpoints" really a lot easier to deal with than 
610 square meters*?  Another possibility for "chunk" size is 13 square 
meters.  This figure was not chosen for any other good reason than it makes 
a standard turret round to 1 hardpoint, and a 20 square meter barbette 
round to 2 hardpoints (this would give a 100-dton hull 47 
hardpoints).  Bigger chunks make most turret weapons have no surface area 
requirement, which would IMHO be a problem.

* I'll admit that the current QSDS data tables (which frequently run 
numbers out to far too many significant figures) are broken in this 
regard.  There should probably be no decimal numbers at all, and everything 
larger than three digits should probably be rounded to 2 or 3 significant 
figures.

To me, this seems the same as tracking surface area, except we're using 
different units that aren't defined anywhere else.  This hurts FF&S 
compatibility, and also makes it harder for people to apply "real world" 
knowledge to ship designs.

>power plants might be tracked in some different way

In FF&S2, power plants require surface area, too (in fact, just about every 
type of system uses surface area, one way or another).  These could all be 
converted to "hardpoints", of course.  I tend to think that some sort of 
special rule or table, just to handle power plant and hull interactions, 
would be more complication than it saved in tracking surface area.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020202.235815.-183833.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Gentlemen please, you're misunderstanding me!

On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:15:45 -0500 Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
writes:
> 
> >David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
> 
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:31:25, David Shayne 
> <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
> >The whole thing boils down to what the Maximum CP Input line
> > on the computers chart means. My position is it is the maximum
> > CPs before being multiplied and General T. is of the opinion
> > that it is the maximum CPs after the multiplier.

NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING!!!
GEESH, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY IT?
I clearly gave an example, I guess it needs repeating...

EXAMPLE:
1. Determine the number of control points required by each of the eight
following sections: Hull, Power Supply, Locomotion, Communications,
Sensors, Weapons, Screens and Environment Control. Use the following
formula:

	Control Points = Section Price In Credits / 100,000 x Tech Level
ETABORUK TECH LEVEL 16
ESCORT (CORVETTE)  1000tn
Totals = 1,162,446,940 / 100,000 x16 = 185,991.5104 CP's

I can now choose to have or not to have a computer.

2. I choose to pick a computer to help me from packing nearly 186,000
CP's in my ship. I do understand that I can choose any model I want,
rather than being required to install something which handles all of the
186,000 CP's (which was my original thought). Therefore I can choose any
of the following models:
Mod	CP's	Mult	Total required
Nothing	185,992	/0	= 185,992
0, 0/fib	185,992	/5	=  37198.4
1, 1/fib	185,992	/10	=  18599.2
2, 2/fib	185,992	/15	=  12399.4
3, 3/fib	185,992	/25	=  7439.6
4, 4/fib	185,992	/30	=  6199.7
5, 5/fib	185,992	/35	=  5314.0
6, 6/fib	185,992	/45	=  4133.1
7, 7/fib	185,992	/65	=  2861.4
8, 8/fib	185,992	/95	=  1957.8
9, 9/fib	185,992	/120	=  1549.9
10, 10/fib185,992	/200	=  929.9

3. Select and install enough control panel units and control panel
add-ons so that the total CPs from the control units multiplied by the
computer's CP multiplier (if a computer is installed) equals or exceeds
the number of CPs required to control the craft.

I chose a mod 10 which required me to install a minimum of 930 CP's and
AddOns.

> That's my take on the discussion, as well, and I interpret the rule 
> the same way you (David) do.  It's been a while since I worked with
> the MT design rules (I didn't like them very much), but it was my 
> impression that the Max CP Input is the maximum control panel
> input before multiplication (and not the maximum control point
> output of the computer for purposes of controlling the vessel).
> 
> >By the Turokan interpretation the greatest possible cost of a
> > TL 15 ship would then be MCr 666,666 [... and by] my
> > formulation the greatest  possible cost for a TL 15 ship would
> > be MCr 80,000,000

I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED COST, OR ANYTHING WITH TL15!!!

My world and ships are TL 16. I also choose a disk configuration and a
minimum armor value higher than the norm. My ships are very pricey, and
the above 1,000 dton corvette costs  1,476,526,940, Commercial Cost=
1,181,221,552

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:28:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
Message-ID: <200202030828.AAA09599@molly.iii.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:

>> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.
>
>Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
>still has nightmares . . . 

Yeah, but at least in WWII soldiers weren't subject to being shot at by
shore batteries on the other side of the planet (ah, the joys of deep
meson sites)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:26:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget
>> of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30%
>> of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,
>
>Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.
>The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is
>0.15% of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
>volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected.

Actually, Trin's GWP is 210 TCr/year (it's an Industrial world), and the
TCS/striker rule is 3% of GWP (6.3 TCr, 1.89 TCr Naval tax)

Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent to
BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval tax.

Of course, based on FFW fleet strengths, the naval expenditure of the
3I is well under the canon figure, which may mean 3% is for small worlds,
and Trin actually spends something like 1% (0.3% tax), which may be 
comparable to the value of trade and mutual defense to Trin.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:37:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:37:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203175903.B10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3C5DADB1.12058.32A12D@localhost>

I think the question here is not "can the Imperium take out an 
individual high pop high tech world", but "how much bargaining 
power does an individual high pop high tech world have". The 
Imperium fairly clearly can take out an single world (though if 
several get together, they're in trouble, Trin and Mora combined 
could effectively defy the the entire sector).

The cost of taking out a world like Trin is staggering, making it an 
absolute last resort option, and if done for what other worlds 
perceve as "inappropriate" reasons risks turning other similar 
worlds against the Imperium (if the Imperium takes out Trin for 
something trivial then Mora, Rhylanor and Glisten are going to take 
notice). So it comes down to a struggle of wills. The Imperium 
*really* doesn't want to use force against Trin, but Trin knows that if 
push comes to shove it will probably lose. Who blinks first?

Let's construct a senario. The Archduke of Deneb decides that the 
Spinward Marches needs a depot (not unreasonable and likely to 
gain a lot of support throughout the Marches) and he deligates the 
Sector duke (for this argument lets say that the Duke of Vilis has 
somehow got this position) to decide its location.

Now this is going to be expensive, requiring a tax hike; but it's 
construction will have spinoff benefits for the surrounding worlds. 
The Duke decides to put the depot in the Vilis subsector (thus 
bringing the benefits to his fief). Trin objects. Not only is this depot 
going to lead to a tax hike without Trin getting much of a slice of 
the spinoffs; but its going to take Imperial navy money (shipbuilding 
and maintaince) away from Trin's yards.

So Trin threatens not to pay its share of the costs (claiming that 
they need the money to offset the damage the depot is going to do 
to its economy) unless it is located in its subsector. The question 
is who wins this argument, Trin or the Sector Duke? (IMHO, it will 
be Trin in this case, either the depot's location will be changed or 
Trin will not have to pay). Just how "serious" does the matter have 
to be before the Imperium is willing to say no to Trin?

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 09:12:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:12:55 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de> wrote:

> ACK. This aging rolls of CT always gave me the creeps. I like the
> GURPS method very much. Indeed, in some campaigns (not Traveller) I
> encourage the players to take Longevity or such - it costs points and
> has no real advantage for them ;-) (after all, most campaigns don't
> last _that_ long)

Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan 
advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, 
and Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points.  
Advantages that offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game 
should not have anything more than a nominal cost.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:24:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:24:15 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <200202030101.g1311Zj09439@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <004801c1ac9d$1ba314c0$86578a90@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> All radical parties tend to attract disaffected teenagers. It's part of 
> growing up. Most don't stay involved for long after they discover that 
> radical politics are not necessarily good for pulling the opposite sex. 
> Unfortunately some of us stay involved long after our sell by date.

What can I say about this?  

Actually quite a bit, but I won't.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:24:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:24:12 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <004701c1ac9d$1ae2d200$86578a90@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive
> anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will
> be by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology
> than we have at the moment.

Ah.  So you aren't an anarchist after all.

There have been perfectly viable anarchist societies in the twentieth
century.

The best example was the bit of Mexico run by Zapata during that Mexican
Revolution.  Basically, Zapata was a military leader, not a government
leader.  The peasants were allowed to do their own thing.

Ultimately, Zapata was overthrown, and the peasants crushed, but what
destroyed them wasn't internal problems, but rather the fact that they had
ignored the fact that there was in fact a centralised Mexican state, and
this state was eventually able to become strong enough to defeat them.  This
kind of thing is what Marxists point to as the major limitation of
anarchism, apart from the naivety and childishness of present day
"anarchists".

Traveller analogy:  it's the Hard Times, the Imperium is flat on its back,
and you are happy about this.  Unfortunately, Lucan is still there in the
core, and sooner or later he will send expeditions to wipe you off the face
of space.  Either you do it to him first, or your goose is cooked.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:44:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:44:33 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELBCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each,
> and Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points.
> Advantages that offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game
> should not have anything more than a nominal cost.
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15 points. I
can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper - it is, after
all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander tune* Of course
you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and immunities too, less you
wont have too much fun with it ;-)

IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer something
like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long way to achieve
them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled after
the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF series over
here) Cellular Activator. It's an egg-shaped metallic device, about the size
of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which offers (in GURPS Terms):
Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Disease and (I am not sure yet)
either Very Rapid Healing or Slow Regeneration (probably even both).

If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big deal:
They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should at least be
disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer something like very
rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to poison and maybe slow
regeneration and that is balanced by the fact that anyone wearing such a
thing better takes good care of it, because after 62 hours without it,
you're _dead_.

But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:17:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:17:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Knives.
Message-ID: <140.8de23f4.298e7641@aol.com>

In a message dated 03/02/02 05:20:32 GMT Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com 
writes:


> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
> > armament to carry round in public?
> 
> Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my 
> father 
> gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a 
> phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.

I generally carry a Swiss Army knife that was given to me by my parents, a 
Leatherman Wave on my belt and a credit card tool in my wallet.

> 
> Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly 
> knife. 
> 
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> 
> He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and 
> took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself 
> a 
> good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .
> 
> LKW
> 
With me it was always the tip of the thumb or the back of the head that 
copped it with nunchuka. The tip of the thumb is the one that really hurts...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:05:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:05:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net>
References: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300
Message-ID: <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>

On 1 Feb 2002, at 9:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Our gallons are small because a gallon is 8 pounds of water.  Thus a
> pint's a pound, a cup's 8 oz. and a fluid oz. is an ounce of water.
> We preserve the original doubling-and-halving flow of the system.

Ah, but actually you don't, because your gallon's actually a bit over 8 pounds 
of water, so the Imperial gallon of 10 pounds of water is at least as sensible 
and because the Imperial system uses 20 fliud ounces to the pint they're nearly 
the same as your ounces, and are exactly_ one ounce of water, rather than 
almost an ounce of water. 


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:04:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:04:23 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <140.8de23f6.298e8147@aol.com>

In a message dated 03/02/02 10:32:03 GMT Standard Time, abradley1@bigpond.com 
writes:


> > From: CHam628781@aol.com
> > Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive
> > anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will
> > be by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology
> > than we have at the moment.
> 
> Ah.  So you aren't an anarchist after all.

Just not a revolutionary anarchist :)

> 
> There have been perfectly viable anarchist societies in the twentieth
> century.
> 
> The best example was the bit of Mexico run by Zapata during that Mexican
> Revolution.  Basically, Zapata was a military leader, not a government
> leader.  The peasants were allowed to do their own thing.

Indeed, there have been anarchist successes in the twentieth century. However 
they have tended to be short lived. To gain a stable long term anarchist 
society needs evolution, revolutions tend to throw up despots (either for you 
or against you) and we all know where that leads :)

> Ultimately, Zapata was overthrown, and the peasants crushed, but what
> destroyed them wasn't internal problems, but rather the fact that they had
> ignored the fact that there was in fact a centralised Mexican state, and
> this state was eventually able to become strong enough to defeat them.  
> This
> kind of thing is what Marxists point to as the major limitation of
> anarchism, apart from the naivety and childishness of present day
> "anarchists".

Erm, that's not how I read it. Zapata, Pancho Villa and Venustiano Carranza 
(commander of the Constitutional Army) entered Mexico City in 1914, following 
the assasination of Fransisco Madero. Fighting broke out and the 
anarcho-syndicalists of the Casa del Obrero Mundial joined Carranza in 1916. 
Zapata was driven back into the province of Morelos and finally betrayed and 
killed in 1919. When the fighting originally broke out Mexico certainly 
didn't have a central government.

As to naivete and childeshness: you wouldn't be referring to our erstwhile 
neighbours the Greens would you? ;)


> 
> Traveller analogy:  it's the Hard Times, the Imperium is flat on its back,
> and you are happy about this.  Unfortunately, Lucan is still there in the
> core, and sooner or later he will send expeditions to wipe you off the face
> of space.  Either you do it to him first, or your goose is cooked.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 
Assuming enough worlds have "seen the light" doing it to him might well be 
possible. However extremely unlikely given the wide variations in social 
organsiation in the Trav universe.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:43:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:43:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Murder
References: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1acaf$8c8eaf20$3500a8c0@imogen>

Charles wrote:
> > It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
> > worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
> > (with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
> > is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
> > against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
> > jurisdictions ... they could also be  used  as  "suggestions"  to
> > planetary  legislatures.  The  3I  even  tolerates  open  warfare
> > between member states provided that civilian  casulties  are  not
> > "excessive" (remember the Imperial Rules of War for mercs?).
<snip>
>
> Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder
> definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm
> going from memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)
>
> "Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day,
> causes the death of the product of a human mother"

That sounds about right.  I think  the  3I  would  use  "sentient
lifeform" in place of "product of a human mother".  And the  time
restriction has already caused legal  problems  (in  cases  where
someone deliberately infected another with HIV).

How about:
  "Where no other legal  jurisdiction  applies  Murder  shall  be
  defined as any deliberate action or  deliberate  inaction  that
  causes the death of a sentient lifeform.  Such  death  may  not
  necessarily be immediate.  Murder shall be deemed acceptable in
  cases of self-defense; military action;  where  the  action  or
  inaction would result in one's own death or serious injury,  or
  the death or serious injury of others; in the  arrest  of  high
  treason against the Imperium; or in the attempted  apprehension
  of an Imperial felon."

Note that this  gives  the  state  the  discression  as  to  time
interval.  Also, most animals are not sentient, and AI robots are
not lifeforms, but  fully  matured  clones  are  both.  The  last
clause exempts situations where a pirate  ship  (not  engaged  in
piracy) is attacked in ship combat and thee is loss of life.



> 1) Some killings will occur aboard Imperial vessels or on directly ruled
> worlds. The local ruler here is the Imperium, so it must have a suitable
> definition of murder. This would also include killings that take place in
> starports.

Agreed.  Which is why I said:
> The 3I will have laws against murder, but they'd only apply outside
> planetary jurisdictions



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:00:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:00:13 -0000
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <000401c1acaf$8c00c700$3500a8c0@imogen>

Frank Pitt wrote:
> > > _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...
> >
> > As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
> 
> As a Traveller movie. The crew of thee freighter acte exactly lke
> player chacaters, except that they didn't move quite as fast as
> player characters would have done in getting off the military
> ship.

I always thought AR chickened out at the end: IMHO it would  have
made a better endding if the part-Alien Ripley had, after getting
the mercs off the ship, led the Aliens out into deep  space  with
her as a kind of Moses figure (if not overplayed like the  Christ
metaphor in A3).  After all, any human military is  going  to  be
after her for her hybid DNA, so how can she go back  to  a  human
home.  Also it would set things up  interestingly  for  the  next
movie with Ripley on the Alien's side.

ObTrav: I think I can see some evi^H^H^Hinteresting  plot  twists
here for when I next run an Alien encounter.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:42:20 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aussi and Kiwi gun fans
In-Reply-To: <B881F57B.23055%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE6FC.14091.76B233@localhost>

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:58, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Sorry to butt in, but I know the TML has lots of Austrailian, New Zealand,
> etc members who may be able to help me out (or possibly some others on this
> list).  I am looking for info on the Austrailian Leader T-2 Assault rifle.
> Specifically, I'm hoping to find details, drawings or pictures of the T-2 bolt
> assembly.  Appreciate any information.
> 
> Rupert?

Not a clue offhand, sorry. I'll ask around, though. Now if you'd asked me about 
the Charlton LMG I could've helped you a little. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:42:29 -0000
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1acaf$8b9c11c0$3500a8c0@imogen>

Gerry Harris wrote:
> Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
> bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
> was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
> television show.

Have you seen the "Renagade Version"  of  Highlander 2  that  has
been released on DVD (region 1)?  They have  re-eddited  and  re-
dubbed (and even re-shot) parts of the film to fix up some of the
problems.  Its still the same film but its better than it was.

Also, in the DVD extras they explain why the original version was
so bad: they ran out of money and the financial backers took  the
unfinished film away from the director and producer.  Said backer
then found the quickest and cheapest way to turn  the  unfinished
film into something releaseable without care for the  fans.  Some
aspects of the film, like the Highlander being alien,  were  only
experiments to see how some scenes played in rushes and were  not
intendeded to be released.  In the RV this is now fixed.

However, even though its now improved IMHO any Highlander stories
made after the first film should have been set prior to it.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:42:20 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B881EDAF.2301E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C5DE6FC.32614.76B229@localhost>

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.

Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a 
handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it on you 
for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range. However 
you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason (though 
the police carry pepper spray).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:46:13 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 1:55, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote: >I
> was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)
> 
> Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It
> should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, and a
> serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?

Yes, it is. Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a 
month, and the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was bottled. 
Lots of bottles, though. Before Doug revised 'reasonable' to include only North 
America I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets 
of beer from here to the US would be. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:49:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:49:17 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE89D.18604.7D12C2@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 19:56, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Andrew Whincup wrote :
> 
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> > appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
> 
> In normal circumstances, nothing.

I normally carry a Wenger Swiss Amry knife (I forget the model), but that's a 
tool as far as I'm concerned. I used to carry a big Mauser pocket knife, but it 
was too long to fit comfortably in most pockets (and then it got stolen).

> Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
> fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

I've an ex-British Army machette that I use for that purpose, though I've used 
a bokken for that, too. The machete needs less space, but the bokken should 
make less of a mess on the carpet.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 14:04:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:04:26  0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>

I've sat back for a while and listened to the debate. I've found it very interesting.

Personnally I've found the armament that some of you consider "run of the mill" frankly horrifying. When I say I feel overarmoured with my victorinox, I mean that I get nervous when Policemen look in my direction for too long. I also get very nervous when I forget to unclip it befoer teaching in schools, 'cos I'll just got to prison for that if it's discovered. [please hold flames until you've read the next paragraph]

What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not allowed to carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held a real gun that works I'm not sure, I think they might be comparable. I'd not really thought about the psychological/sociological effects of law levels and what it might do to people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...

Thoughts anyone?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:36 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
Message-ID: <3c61482c.5060499@post.demon.co.uk>

Well, here are the first few installments at last - I've broken this
down into several posts to avoid overwhelming the TML, and will send
them at intervals (unless the first posts are greeted with a mass
outcry of "No! It's horrible! Stop it at once!").

I was inspired into doing this now by the conversation about
high-population, high-tech worlds:  whatever else you say about it,
Vincennes certainly qualifies as both.  I've tried to explore how a
world can develop this way in the Third Imperium, and what the
potential effects would be on the surrounding planets and systems.

I should emphasise that this is an IMTU landgrab, since it only refers
to canonical materials printed after 1993 - I haven't seen anything
produced during the Megatraveller era and therefore don't take account
of anything printed then.  To those who do know about the earlier
version, my apologies - if you want to use my materials, you could
either rename and relocate the world I describe to somewhere else, or
else assume that one or the other version of the write-up was produced
by a survey team bombed out of their heads on the "hallucinogenic
compounds [extracted from the sapient natives of Perez by Vincennes'
rulers] via cruel, unethical and deadly processes" (RSB p61).

The next post will contain a Library Data entry for Vincennes, which
is based on the RSB write-up.  You can therefore take it as being the
canon baseline containing everything I knew about the planet before
starting the write-up.  Everything from then on is the product of my
warped imagination.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:35 GMT
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3c5e4786.4894251@post.demon.co.uk>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:

>Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan 
>advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, 

Or alternatively (in GT) included for free in the 50-point cost of
coming from a GTL-12 background?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:37 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 2: History (part A - long)
Message-ID: <3c634d14.6316902@post.demon.co.uk>

HISTORY OF VINCENNES

The Early Years: -1950 to 57

The Vincennes system was discovered in -1950 by scout units of the
Navy of the Rule of Man.  These early explorers actually ignored the
planet that would become Vincennes:  their interest was instead caught
by the agricultural world of Paven.  A small group of Vilani colonists
was settled here under the auspices of the Imperial Navy.  Their
purpose was to act as a supply depot in this sparsely-populated border
region, providing fresh food (and R&R facilities) to elements of the
fleet operating against the flank of the Vargr incursions.  When the
Second Imperium collapsed, the Navy's 106th Independent Squadron was
effectively left to its own devices.  In -1752 its commander, Admiral
LeClerc, declared himself "Protector" of the Paven system, which
became the capital of his pocket empire.  Over the following years the
mostly-Solomani crew of the Imperial ships set themselves up as feudal
lords over the Vilani settlers, and subdued the independent worlds
within a rough 5-parsec radius of Paven.  This state of affairs was
formalised when LeClerc's daughter Helene, on her father's death,
declared herself hereditary and sovereign Queen of Paven, and awarded
titles of nobility to her chief followers. The Vilani peasants were
reduced to the status of serfs and chattel. 

During the Long Night, the Kingdom of Paven never quite lost its
space-faring capability.  However, its neighbouring worlds -- mostly
settled by a thin scattering of prospectors and homesteaders -- went
into terminal economic decline and were abandoned.  Most of their
inhabitants eventually moved to Paven (and by the time of the Third
Imperium, most records or memory of these colonies was lost).  Here,
depending on their economic value, political power, and usefulness to
the Crown, they might join the peasantry or else be rewarded with
titles and land grants.  By -1400 most of the ships of the Paven navy
were unused and useless hulks in orbit, prey to vacuum welding and
micrometeorite damage.

For the next millennium and a half, Pavenese history was a confusion
of petty dynastic squabbles, territorial wars, and occasional bursts
of high culture -- which produced some stunning works of art and
music.  Technology declined to a sustainable level of between 3 and 5,
with some exceptions where particular knowledge or advanced capability
was preserved.  Historical records of this period are sketchy and
contain many obvious distortions and inaccuracies.  At least
nominally, the LeClerc family remained in power throughout the entire
period.  However, the various monarchs' actual relationship to the
dynasty and descent from Queen Helene was often more of a polite
fiction than reality. 

This equilibrium was shattered in the years after -200.  Free traders
(Zhodani, Vilani, Sword Worlder, even Sylean) began calling at the
Paven system with greater frequency, and the people became aware once
more of the outside galaxy.  The monarchy became determined to
re-affirm its traditional claim to the surrounding worlds before they
were occupied by another nation. Unfortunately, the newest ship in the
Pavenese fleet was 1,500 years old, and none of them remained
jump-capable.  In -168, King Pierre V did the best he could to assert
his kingdom's status as an interstellar power, by sending his
patched-up "navy" on a month-long journey through realspace to the
neighbouring Undraczech/Ember star system.  Here they established a
small colony on the marginally habitable world of Vincennes.  Pierre
also took the title Emperor Pierre I to mark the occasion.

While the founding of Vincennes may have been a token gesture, carried
out more for prestige than practicality, the world soon proved to be
genuinely valuable.  Its oceans were teeming with life, and mineral
surveys of the seabeds discovered rich deposits of ore in
easily-workable form.  The population increased rapidly:  Solomani
from Paven's noble classes organised and financed the new mines, farms
and factories, while the Vilani peasantry provided the workforce.
Strategic purchases of imported high technology from free traders --
carried out under the strict control of the Emperor -- allowed the
serious environmental problems of Vincennes to be overcome.  In -34 an
even greater step was taken when Emperor Georges II founded BTV, the
system's first biotechnology company.  This utilised the rich variety
of single-celled life in Vincennes' oceans as raw material for the
production of drugs and pharmaceuticals, and gave the Empire of Paven
its first high-value export industry.  By the time the Scouts from the
Third Imperium reached the region in 49, it was Vincennes, not Paven,
that was the economic centre of the system.  (As a result Imperial
documents have always used the name "Vincennes" to refer to the entire
system, even though the political capital at this time was still on
Paven.)

Empress Julianne was quick to see the benefits membership of the
Imperium would bring to her realm's burgeoning industries.  She was,
however, determined to secure the best deal possible: and initially
held out for incorporation of the entire "traditional" Kingdom of
Paven (as of -1752) as an autonomous state within the Imperium.  That
was not acceptable to the Imperial negotiators.  However, Julianne did
secure agreement that her world would become the subsector capital,
and that she herself would be granted the hereditary title of Imperial
Marquis as a guarantee that Vincennes' local affairs would remain
independent of Imperial control.  

Furthermore, in an important symbolic gesture the treaty incorporating
Vincennes into the Imperium (in 57) was worded as an agreement between
equal sovereigns, the Emperor Artemsus and the Empress Julianne. 
(Artemsus, when informed of this demand in a routine dispatch from his
local representative in Deneb, is said to have shrugged and said that
"words cost nothing".  The people of Vincennes, on the other hand,
take great delight in pointing out that because their own Imperial
dynasty has been in existence for 168 years longer than that of the
Third Imperium, their Emperor should take social precedence over the
Emperor on Sylea/Capital.  Citizens of other worlds quickly find that
mocking this claim is an excellent way to start a bar fight.  Imperial
officials often prefer to use the title Marquis of Vincennes rather
than Emperor to avoid confusion with the Emperor of the Third
Imperium;  of course, doing so in the hearing of a Vincennien citizen
is also asking for trouble.)



Vincennes and the Third Imperium 57 - 589

The subsector government was formally established on Vincennes in 58,
when an Imperial Duke arrived "as a guest of Empress Julianne". In
fact, most of the subsector was uncolonised at this stage, so the Duke
had little actual work to do.  Eight years later, in 66, Julianne
moved the seat of government to Vincennes and formally changed her
title to Empress of Vincennes, rather than of Paven (a change which
simply brought things into line with the way the Third Imperium
already referred to her).  

She also agreed to adopt the Imperial calendar in that year, replacing
the old Terran calendar used previously (in fact, during the Long
Night the Pavenese reckoning of the date had come adrift by four years
from the actual count of Terran years:  when this became general
knowledge, it speeded the acceptance of the Imperial dating system).
Julianne had already passed an Imperial Edict in 56 removing all
references to "chattel" in the legal definition of a serf under
Vincennien law, although the practical consequences of this for the
penniless and illiterate Pavenese peasantry were minimal.

For the next few centuries, Vincennes prospered as a centre of
Imperial trade and colonisation.  It was situated on the direct route
between Deneb (gateway to the Imperial Core) and Mora, the centre of
development for the Spinward Marches; and the world benefited greatly
from passing traffic as well as acting as a centre for local
development.  As in the Second Imperium, the primary export of the
system was food and supplies for starships:  but now these consisted
primarily of hydroponics systems, specially tailored high-nutrition,
low-bulk foodstuffs and dietary supplements.  Medicines and
pharmaceuticals also became a local speciality, as colonists and
scouts visited many new worlds with strange, hostile biospheres.  On a
different note, Vincennien brandy and Vincennien hallucinogenic drugs
(as preferred, or as permitted by local law) became the recreational
substances of choice for seven subsectors.  

Although Vincennes did not establish any colonies itself during this
period (its own growing industries absorbed all its population) it did
provide financial and material support to many of the newly-settled
worlds in the subsector. This gave the Emperors of Vincennes a lot of
informal power and influence in the region: a development which was
largely overlooked at the time by Imperial authorities more concerned
with events in the Spinward Marches.

Although the earliest settlement on Vincennes had been on the planet's
single continent, the almost constant hurricane-force winds meant that
construction had to be largely underground.  As soon as the available
technology allowed (in c. 250) it was decided to shift most of the
population into new underwater arcologies, safe under the oceans from
the planet's weather conditions and -- more importantly -- closer to
its primary sources of mineral wealth in the deep sea trenches.  

The arcologies were mostly financed and built by the Crown, out of
taxpayers' money and the profits of trade.  However, in 262 Emperor
Yves assigned each of them (along with a share of its revenue) to his
favourite nobles to administer as fiefs.  Until that date, most of the
nobility had maintained their traditional homes and estates on Paven;
but now the majority moved to their new luxury accommodation in the
arcologies.  Paven therefore fell victim to the "absentee landlord"
syndrome.  The nobles now saw that agricultural planet as just an
extra source of revenue rather than a home to be cherished, and so
exploited its inhabitants mercilessly.  

Over the next two centuries, popular unrest on Paven against
Vincennien rule would grow steadily.  Unable to keep order themselves,
the nobles turned to the Crown for assistance:  royal troops
established garrisons and turned Paven into a virtual police state.
Rebellious villagers were often deported en masse to Vincennes,
assigned to the lowest levels of the arcologies and the undersea
mines.  Unable to fight the State openly, the people of Paven turned
to passive resistance.  This included the recovery (or outright
re-invention, to be honest) of their Vilani cultural traditions and
heritage, suppressed during two millennia of Solomani domination.
(Barrack-room rumours in Vincennes Grand Army units stationed on Paven
whispered that rebellious peasants would kill and *eat* any soldier
they managed to catch alone.).

During the mid-400s, relations between the Imperial government and the
Vincennes Crown became more strained.  At last, the Imperial Dukes
took notice of the informal sphere of control that the emperors of
Vincennes wielded over the other worlds in the subsector, and
recognised the threat to their own authority.  The result was a long
series of political confrontations and manoeuvring as each party
strove to establish their hegemony.  The Crown (Emperor Georges IV and
then Empress Marianne during this period) was careful to avoid any
open provocation that would lead to direct Imperial intervention --
although on several occasions the subsector Duke attempted to
manufacture an incident that would justify exactly that.  Instead,
each side used a mixture of bribery and concealed threats to persuade
other world governments to ally with them. 

In the long term, the deeper pockets of the Imperium gave it the
advantage in this campaign, although the cost was high -- including
the expansion of the Imperial Navy research centre on HRD/Deneb
(1623), a Ministry of Colonisation regional headquarters on
Jonkeer/Deneb (1324) and investment in several new starports and Scout
bases throughout the subsector.  Matters finally came to a head in 506
with the Paven Incident. 

In that year, an open rebellion broke out on Paven (financed and
supported by covert off-world interests, as subsequent investigation
would prove).  Lurid tales of massacres (and cannibalism -- although
this was never proven) inflamed public opinion on Vincennes, and a
huge expeditionary force was organised to put down the rebellion.  At
that point, the revolutionary committee on Paven appealed directly to
the Imperial Duke to be recognised as a sovereign and independent
world under Imperial law, and thus entitled to Imperial protection
against "off-world invasion".

Their argument was that the 55 AU distance between Paven and Vincennes
was far enough that all travel between the worlds was done by jump
drive, making them effectively two different star systems.  The Duke
publicly accepted this argument.  He ordered the Imperial 258th Fleet
(which, coincidentally, just happened to be on standby in a
neighbouring system) to jump immediately to Paven and interdict the
world, preventing the Vincennien force from landing.  In response,
Empress Marianne despatched most of Vincennes' SDB fleet through
normal space to Paven -- simultaneously making a political point and
confronting the Imperial Fleet with a superior force.  

For several tense weeks, the two fleets faced off against each other
in orbit, as the massacres continued on the planet's surface and
Imperial couriers rushed to call reinforcements from the fleets in
neighbouring subsectors.  However, now face-to-face with the reality
of open war against the Imperium -- a war she knew she could not win
-- Marianne was forced to back down.  The terms included the surrender
of most of her off-world interests: selling the royal holdings in
other worlds' economies to the subsector Duke and to the Imperial
family on Capital. (However, the price agreed in return would provide
a huge capital boost to Vincennes' economy and her own private
fortune).  In return, the Imperium agreed to regard Paven as part of
the Vincennes system rather than an independent world -- this was,
after all, simply a return to the status quo ante and thus no real
blow to their prestige. 

The long-term result of the Incident was that Vincennes' power in the
subsector was curtailed.  This triggered something of an economic
downturn in the region, as Vincennes turned inwards and the flow of
Imperial investment to counterbalance it was also cut off.  Vincennes
itself flourished, however.  Marianne invested the proceeds of
liquidating the royal family's off-world assets into setting up new
heavy engineering and industrial plant, to balance the world's
existing strengths in the "softer" biological sciences.  This reduced
the construction costs of new arcologies, led to a settlement of
Undraczech's other planets and moons and the establishment of orbital
industries, and made Vincennes into a major shipbuilding power. (The
greater military potential this would eventually give her world was
doubtless not missed by Empress Marianne).  

As for Paven, the Imperial Navy jumped away from the world and left
the Vincennien fleet free to crush the rebellion as "a matter of
internal security".  The subsequent oppression was thorough and
brutal, and ever since then the Pavenese have regarded the Third
Imperium's action as the worst kind of betrayal.


_____________________________________________________

Next:  The conclusion of Vincennes' history.  The Civil War, the
Vincennes economic miracle, and the ugly truth of what actually
happened on Perez.  Genocide, slavery, illegal psionics, flying
cities, and a face-to-face confrontation between Vincennes' ruler and
the Empress of the Third Imperium...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:40 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 1: Library Data
Message-ID: <3c624bd6.5998366@post.demon.co.uk>

INTRODUCTION

Cutting edge.  That's the proud slogan of the world of Vincennes.
Whether it comes to technology or fashion, Vincennes leads the way.
Its people are self-confident, proud of their achievements and firm
believers in progress.  Vincennes is the (self-proclaimed) most
technologically advanced world in the Domain of Deneb.  Its economy is
the powerhouse of an entire sector.  Almost four million sophonts pass
through its starports every month -- on business, as tourists, or as
immigrants eager to grab their share of Vincennes' rapidly-expanding
prosperity.

And yet, the slogan carries another meaning.  Vincennes is potentially
the blade that could tear the Domain's peace apart.  Any
high-population industrial world has the economic power to overbalance
and dominate its neighbours:  but when a planet can arm its local
defence troops to a higher standard than Imperial Marines, the danger
increases immeasurably.  Add to this the fact that Vincennes is ruled
by a dynasty of absolute monarchs older than the Third Imperium.
Unchecked by any domestic restraints, they have in the past shown
themselves perfectly willing to defy the Imperium and engage in
military adventurism.  The people of Vincennes believe it is only
right and proper that they bear the honour of playing host to the
subsector capital:  in truth, the Deneb government hardly dares to
turn its back on this world for a moment...


(NOTE:  outsiders, and standard Library Data files, pronounce the
world's name in standard Anglic fashion, as "vinSENZ".  Locals,
however, insist on pronouncing the name in the archaic French style,
as "VANsonn".  Using either pronunciation in the wrong company can
occasionally have embarrassing consequences...)

_____________________________________________________

LIBRARY DATA

(This is based on the RSB, and is the canonical data on which the rest
of the landgrab is based.  It can be considered "common knowledge"
about the world.)


Vincennes/Deneb (1122)  A/899AA6-G  Hi In Cp  -113  Im  K7V M7V G1V

Capital of Vincennes subsector in Deneb Sector, Domain of Deneb.

Vincennes is currently the only industrial world in the Domain of
Deneb to have reached a level of technology higher than Imperial
standard.  The population lives either in underwater metroplexes
around the world's sole continent, or in 71 gravitic cities which can
vary their altitude to suit the prevailing weather conditions.

The system layout is somewhat unusual.  Vincennes is in the life zone
of the K7V star Undraczech, but it actually orbits that star's dim red
companion, the M7V star Ember.  Depending on whether Vincennes is
between the two stars or on the far side of Ember from Undraczech, its
mean temperature varies by approximately 85 K.  This wide thermal
range leads to tremendous storms sweeping the planet on a regular
basis.

The third star in the system, Guazhirniim, orbits at a great distance.
Its own planetary sub-system includes the agricultural world of Paven,
which produces most of Vincennes' food supply.

_____________________________________________________


The next post will cover Vincennes' early history:  chattel slavery,
the Office of Calendar Compliance, and cannibalism* ...

(* never proven)


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:29:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:29:40 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:05:25AM +1300
References: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net> <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020203092940.A2236@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:05:25AM +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 

> Ah, but actually you don't, because your gallon's actually a bit
> over 8 pounds of water, so the Imperial gallon of 10 pounds of water
> is at least as sensible and because the Imperial system uses 20
> fliud ounces to the pint they're nearly the same as your ounces, and
> are exactly_ one ounce of water, rather than almost an ounce of
> water.

First I heard of it.  My best friend growing up had a pool/spa/deck
store owner for a father, and the rule they used for the weight of
water was a gallon = 8 lbs.

Now, as far as the fact that no two cups measure exactly the same and
that hence one man's ounce is not another's, that I'll not dispute.
But it's all well within epsilon, or should be.

OTOH, I used units to get the ml in a gallon (3785.4118), then to get
the pounds in 3785.4118 grams.  It yielded 8.3454045, which agrees
with you.  Which makes no sense, but that's life.

Why we lost our regular and well-defined gallon is a matter for
another day.  I've no doubt it has something nefarious to do with the
System Which Shall Not Be Named.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
_Money_ is gold.  Fiats are green.  --Bryan J. Maloney

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:34 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk> <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, 

Is that by Far Trader?  If so don't forget to multiply by 1.4 because
Trin is an industrial world.  Also, according to Behind the Claw
Trin's population is 22 billion, not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP
is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

>so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.

Different systems.  According to Striker, 3% of GWP is a typical naval
budget - it's just that Striker gives a different value for GWP than
GT:FT does.

>The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  

30% of the military budget is Imperial *naval* taxes.  (0.9% of GWP
assuming a 3% military budget).  The Imperium might take even more
money in other forms, however...

>Trin's trade is
>0.15% of GWP.  

Actually, Trin's trade with its six largest trade partners alone
accounts for 0.15% of its GWP, although admittedly the total is going
to be very small anyway.  Trade with Mora is worth GCr300, or 0.06% of
GWP (BTN of 13 reduced to 11 for distance), trade with Vincennes,
Tobia, Glisten, Strouden and Lunion is worth GCr 75 per world. (0.2%
each).

Incidentally, this means that there are a lot more Major Trade Routes
crossing the Imperium than I'd suspected.  Just about every subsector
will have several - not necessarily visiting any worlds there, but
crossing it en route from one WTN 6+ planet to another many parsecs
away...  There's one from Mora to Regina straight up the Spinward
Main, for example (on reaching Regina it splits into several feeder
routes).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:45:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <20020202085618.A20573@4dv.net>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203084344.00ab41e0@mail.verizon.net>

Robert,

You might want to look at wxWindows (http://www.wxwindows.org) as an 
alternative. It works with GTK, Motif, Windows, and there's a Mac port in 
the works. I've worked with it in the past, and it hides a lot of the 
details that you'd have to deal with otherwise. Oh yeah, and it's Open 
Source too.  :-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 08:56 AM 2/2/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> >
> > I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
> > Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
> > with such data.
>
>Fairly close.  The library stores & reads data in an XML-like format.
>It's not Mr. Preston's format, and in fact to support that format
>would no doubt require a bit of reworking.  Which wouldn't necessarily
>be a Bad Thing...
>
>The library itself is actually finished (or rather, my first cut at
>the features a library needs is finished).  I am now trying to write a
>frontend using GNOME/gtk+/libtrav/libtravguile/C/guile.
>
>Incidentally, if anyone here has experience with gtk+, please give me
>a holler.  I'm having a deuce of a time with GtkCTrees.
>
> > My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
> > to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
> > individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
> > with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
> > should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.
>
>I actually did something similar with Perl & MySQL about a year ago.
>It was fairly slow, but that was no doubt due to my data
>representation.  It was very cool, though.
>
>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
>By skill-of-sword we may not win
>But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
>Of arquebuse and culverin
>Honor is lost and none may tell
>Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
>                             --Kipling


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:19:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:19:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202031718.g13HI1225196@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
...
>Imperium fairly clearly can take out an single world (though if 
>several get together, they're in trouble, Trin and Mora combined 
>could effectively defy the the entire sector).

  Frankly, if either Trin or Mora figured out a way to move their
system FTL, letting them be might be the best course :>

  Seriously, much of the defenders advantage goes away when they
have to defend multiple critical sites, let alone two star systems
separated by several Jumps.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:28:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:28:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <200202030828.AAA09599@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>

At 12:28 AM 02/03/02 -0800, you wrote:
>GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
>
>>> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.
>>
>>Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
>>still has nightmares . . . 
>
>Yeah, but at least in WWII soldiers weren't subject to being shot at by
>shore batteries on the other side of the planet (ah, the joys of deep
>meson sites)

I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
  http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:30:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:30:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203172245.A10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203093030.006bf8ec@mindspring.com>

At 05:22 PM 02/03/02 +1100, you wrote:
>Terry Carlino wrote:
>> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
>> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
>> degrade.
>
>Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
>and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?

In Traveller terms, we are hardly high tech.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:34:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:34:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203093447.006c2be4@mindspring.com>

At 01:55 AM 02/03/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)
>
>Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
>should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
>and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?

May 2003.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 18:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:03:58 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de>
 
> > Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> > advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, and
> > Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points. Advantages that
> > offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game should not have
> > anything more than a nominal cost.
> >
> Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15
> points. I can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper -
> it is, after all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander
> tune* Of course you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and
> immunities too, less you wont have too much fun with it ;-)

That's one of my major problems with GURPS.  Charging that 
many points for an Advantage that is cool that makes the character 
more powerful or more versatile is completely unfair.
 
> IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer
> something like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long
> way to achieve them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

I agree that players love this sort of thing, but why does charging 
more points better motivate PCs?  I'd say a far better answer is to 
simply make the advantage not available during character 
generation and then give out hints on how it might be obtained.
 
> Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled
> after the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF
> series over here) Cellular Activator. 

Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
Does anyone else remember these books.

Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> It's an egg-shaped metallic
> device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> Regeneration (probably even both).
> 
> If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.

Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary. 
 
> But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:44:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
 <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094432.006c234c@mindspring.com>

At 01:46 AM 02/04/02 +1300, you wrote:

>Yes, it is. Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a 
>month, and the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was
bottled. 
>Lots of bottles, though. Before Doug revised 'reasonable' to include only
North 
>America I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre
buckets 
>of beer from here to the US would be. :)

Hmmm..  It would be cool to meet you..

We pay half the fare.  You need to make it to US soil.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:46:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJODKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094655.006c1b30@mindspring.com>

At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:49:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Writing again
In-Reply-To: <148.8ddabd4.298e228e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094919.006c1284@mindspring.com>

At 12:20 AM 02/03/02 EST, you wrote:
>> >Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!
>>  
>>  *snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
>>  expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
>>  office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.
>
>Doug's writing again . . . hmmmmm . . . wonder what it is.*
>
>LKW
>
>* This is trolling . . . I happen to know what he's writing.

Yeah, thanks for letting me write _GURPS Traveller: Penguins of the Third
Imperium_.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"  
  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:33:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Murder
In-Reply-To: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202031232170.19608-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder 
> definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm going from 
> memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)
> 
> "Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day, causes the 
> death of the product of a human mother"

I would hope that uterine replicators (cf. Bujold, among others) would be
in full usage by the Third Imperium!

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:34:18 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELFCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> > It's an egg-shaped metallic
> > device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> > offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> > Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> > Regeneration (probably even both).
> >
> > If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> > deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> > at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> > something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> > poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> > that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> > after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.
>
> Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary.
>
Probably not. But it makes for some interesting drama in the PR series, so
why not use it? If your Cellular Activator is stolen, you're in deep
trouble. Should tune the paranoia factor up a few degrees ;-))


> > But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.
>
> Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.
>
It's still in the early planning stages, but yes, I think so, too. :-)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:42:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9AE5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020203204222.74125.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>

I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
cubic meter.

Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with. 


As a fix for FF&S, I'd suggest dividing the required volume of a
vehicle workstation by 10 and using that.  This should bring vehicles
designed in this system back into line with their real-world
counterparts.

'Course, I could just be relieving myself into a stiff breeze ...

=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:48:03 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F2058azEqeZkhN9AU1O000046e3@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them."


Mr. Little,

     Superb illustration of the idea, sir.  That's exactly what I've been 
trying, and failing, to point out on the JTAS boards.
     Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin 
would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at 
the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or 
potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far 
more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:52:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:52:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>
References: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020204075233.A13103@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Actually, Trin's GWP is 210 TCr/year (it's an Industrial world),

Oops, got that right the previous time I posted, but forgot it this
time :(  I consider myself corrected.


> Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent
> to BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval
> tax.

My current program isn't working right, then :(

I did check it by hand, looking at all WTN 6+ worlds within the
surrounding 8 subsectors (there aren't many).  I guess that means that
the vast majority of trade goes 2 subsectors or more.

I'll re-check when my database is up and running (nearly there!) :)


> Of course, based on FFW fleet strengths, the naval expenditure of
> the 3I is well under the canon figure, which may mean 3% is for
> small worlds, and Trin actually spends something like 1% (0.3% tax),
> which may be comparable to the value of trade and mutual defense to
> Trin.

Quite likely.  These figures look more reasonable.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <200202032051.MAA16219@molly.iii.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

>At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>
>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.

However, creative stalling might lead to all sorts of useful concessions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:55:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F180WicigQkQiHR9dIz0000b6e9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Stephen Tempest wrote:  Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give 
Trin a naval budget of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then 
says that 30% of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,..."

     "Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.  
The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is 0.15% 
of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
>volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected."


Mr. Little,

     The mavens over on the JTAS boards have pretty much scrapped the 
TCS/Striker tax model.  The monies that model generates creates an Imperial 
Navy an order of magnitude larger than the one described in canon, even when 
you add in the subsector, or colonial, fleets and any SDB forces.  They 
currently peg Imperial taxes at ~0.3% of Trin's GWP, which is still larger 
than the trade volume.
     The handwave to explain away the TCS/Striker model is that it is from a 
pocket empires setting.  The polities in a much smaller and have far more 
enemies, thus are forced to spend much more.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:57:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
Message-ID: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com>

Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:

>I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
>old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
>average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
>cubic meter.

Laugh.  Try about 3 cubic feet, .08 cubic meters (assumes 180 lb/80 kg).
Density of humans is very close to water.

>Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
>vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
>workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
>moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
>an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
>multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
>average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with. 

If you actually look at real-world vehicles, the driver's seat in a car,
including controls (steering wheel, etc) occupies a region slightly under
a meter wide, somewhat over a meter tall, somewhat over a meter long.
Total volume somewhat over a cubic meter, though a significant fraction 
of it is occupied (by controls and seat).  That's still far less than 
FF&S values.  For comparison, in GURPS Vehicles crewstations are 20-40 cf
(0.55-1.1 cubic meters)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:00:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:00:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
>> Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent
>> to BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval
>> tax.
>
>My current program isn't working right, then :(

You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource worlds
trading with Industrial worlds.  The other thing is, Trin has lots of
links; it only has 4 at BTN 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10,
30+ at 9.5.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:05:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk> <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net> <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020204080543.B13103@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Is that by Far Trader?  If so don't forget to multiply by 1.4 because
> Trin is an industrial world.

Yeah, did that in earlier posts, but forgot for that one. :(


>  Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population is 22 billion,
> not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop multiplier of 1 for
Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that when I get it into the database.  So if
Andrew is right, then bilateral trade is about 0.4% of GWP.


> Trade with Mora is worth GCr300, or 0.06% of GWP

Are you using the arithmetic mean?  Shouldn't you be using the
geometric mean since this is a logarithmic scale?  I have the same
BTN, but only counted it as GCr 180 (i.e. 10^11.25, halfway between
10^11 and 10^11.5)


> Incidentally, this means that there are a lot more Major Trade Routes
> crossing the Imperium than I'd suspected.

Yeah, based on Andrew's numbers, almost all trade goes more than half
a sector, and based on some asymptotic analysis of Far Trader I find
that about 1/2 of all trade for a high-pop system in the Spinward
Marches goes to the main body of the Imperium 4+ sectors away!  Not a
great deal per planet, but there's a *lot* of planets.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AEC9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>QSDS tries, but IMO it's not very good (a gearhead's idea of what a simple

>system should be, not a true simple system).

OK, I'll bite.  How can QSDS be improved?  Do you need fewer 
options?  Fewer things to keep track of*?  What parts of it are confusing, 
and what parts work well?  I'll agree that it *is* more complicated that 
Book 2 (although at least potentially a lot more capable), and seems 
reasonable comparable to the GURPS Traveller "modular" system.

* For example, QSDS tracks surface area (and also lists length, in case you

want to install a spinal mount.  The debate over including surface area (or

not) was a large one, with good points on both sides.<

That's a good question. I completely understand what he means by a "a
gearhead's idea of simple but not really simple", but it's much harder to
put into words. 

But I'll try. So be aware that these are my personal reactions based on my
personal feeling of what Traveller should be. 

1. Config. I dont really care about the shape of the ship. The shape of the
ship doesn't affect roleplaying. I *only* care about the degree of
streamlining. 

2. Area. I dont care about usable surface area. Doesn't affect roleplaying.

3. USD Size. I dont know what this is or why I should care? Doesn't seem to
be the same as the "USP" in High Guard. If I *did* care I'd want to know
why this system couldn't handle size 0-7 or 9 or more?

4. DRIVES - Jump Drive. Area. I don't care about the surface area of the
grid. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Am I really going to meausure? Do I count
antennaes? Can I expanded 'grid-wings' and then contract them after the
jump? Volume should be enough to decide if I can use this drive. 

5. Manuever Drives. HELPlaR Drive. Area. I don't care about the surface
area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to decide if I can
use this drive. 

6. Manuever Drives. Standard Thrust-Plate Drive. Area. I don't care about
the surface area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to
decide if I can use this drive. 

7. AVIONICS. Sensors. Area. Here's the antennae size I need to measure! I
don't care about the surface area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should
be enough to decide if I can use this.

8. AVIONICS. Communications. Area. I don't care about the surface area.
Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to decide if I can use
this. I think you see the pattern here...

9. WEAPONS. Spinal Mount Weapons. Without this, the entire system is
useless to me. If I can't build ALL my ships with this system, I dont want
to learn a 'new' system. 

10. WORKSTATIONS. I'm counting workstations? I dont care about
workstations. Doesn't affect roleplaying. Give me the whole room as a "lab"
of some kind or figure I can plug in a hub whereever I want!

Well, that ought to give you an idea of how I look at it.

And of course, following the usual "Don't-Speak-Unless-It's-To-Complain"
Internet protocol let it be said that this is the most promising design
system for Traveller I've seen so far. It looks like it'll cover all the
bases and produce good balanced ships. 

Just a little too much 'extraneous' stuff for me. I want to be able to see
a ship on Babylon 5 or Andromeda and build completely it 20 minutes later. 

JMO

>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Umm ... are you sure you aren't thinking of SSDS?
>>>>>>>>>>On actually checking, yeah, I was thinking of SSDS.  I was
annoyed with QSDS
>>>>>>>>>>for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

I am *not* mixing up the two. I've looked at SSDS and found it too tedious
long ago. 

>>>>Incidentally, it would not be incredibly hard to make a version of FF&S
which
>>>>lets you use the High Guard ship design system.  It woudl, of course,
be
>>>>incompatible with other design sequences, but that's not a disaster.

Sounds like a great idea. 

>>>>>>> What would you consider a "true simple system"? (Examples are nice,
but not 
>>>>>>>necessary.)
>>>>>>>  Do you want just a single set of controlling numbers (ala Book 2 
>>>>>>>displacement), or better explanations, or fewer options, or
preassembled 
>>>>>>>pieces, or... what? Inquiring gearheads want to know...

Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] High Guard (2nd ed) Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AEC7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Not striker, but you might like to try my program for HG ships at:

http://www.downport.com/amv/software/hgs.html
<

Excellent work here! Thanks!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Merchant Prince?
Message-ID: <200202031641_MC3-F08E-AEDB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Actually, I'm going through a very gradual (3 years and counting)
top-to-bottom evaluation and creation of My Own Personal Ideal Traveller
Ruleset, retooling MegaTraveller mostly.  So far I've made myself pretty
happy with the task system, char-gen, and combat, and have just started in
on Craft Design (literally, yesterday -- see my post in 'The Fleet' section
of the CotI forums).  Eventually I'm planning to take a long look at Trade
& Commerce and World Creation as well, but I'm not there yet.

Trent<

Wow - this sounds fascinating - I'd love to see some of this if you need
kibitzing...

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Friendly reminder
Message-ID: <200202031641_MC3-F08E-AEDD@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 

Please remember to clean out you mailboxes.  I'm getting lots of bounced
messages because accounts are over quota.

Thanks, Listmom<

What does this mean? How do I do this? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Battle rider set available
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AECB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> *Battle Rider 
Boxed 
This is so rare that even I have only seen one once . . . 
LKW
<

Really? I pass it up all the time. Never heard is was much good. 

If anyone wants to trade for a set, contact me off-line. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:50:59 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>
References: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020204085059.A13251@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource
> worlds trading with Industrial worlds.

Probably.  I'm not at home at the moment (stealing work time), so I
can't check.


>  The other thing is, Trin has lots of links; it only has 4 at BTN
> 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10, 30+ at 9.5.

Yep, when doing it by hand I assumed that the links under BTN 10 would
add up to less than BTN 10.5, which still looks right based on your
figures.

Does your program include trade links with the main body of the
Imperium, or just within neighbouring sectors?  A rough analysis shows
that the total trade volume should roughly double over that within the
sector due to the *huge* number of worlds over 50 parsecs away.  My
program didn't take those into account at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 22:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:23:29 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>; from shanhat@angelfire.com on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 

> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?

Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
`naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.

> In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.

Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
one is not properly equipped.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:06:06 +1300
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5E792E.11074.6C5833@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 10:03, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
> I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
> 14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
> Does anyone else remember these books.
> 
> Does anyone else in the US remember these books?

Don't know about the US, but over here there's a large pile of 'em in my 
favourite secondhand book store. I grabbed one the other day and the first 
thing I noticed was how atrocious the style was. Whether that was the foult of 
the original authors or the translator I do not know. 


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:06:06 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020203094432.006c234c@mindspring.com>
References: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C5E792E.10092.6C581B@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 9:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Hmmm..  It would be cool to meet you..
> 
> We pay half the fare.  You need to make it to US soil.

May 2003, you say? Hmm...


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:03:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <20020203204222.74125.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018d01c1ad07$16b324e0$a672893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Harris" <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 03 February 2002 20:42
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations


I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
cubic meter.

Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with.
-->

This was covered in a discussion last year. In summary, a revised set of
volumes for normal seating was devised, as follows:

Roomy - 1.5 m3, 4 h
Adequate - 0.75 m3, 2 h
Cramped - 0.6 m3, 1 h
Restricted - 0.45 m3, 30 m
Standing - 0.15 m3, 15 m

I guess a small vehicle workstation could add another 1 m3 volume or
slightly less. Each seat size allows a different amount of time before a
fatigue roll needs to be made, the times noted above. Although the human
body only takes 0.1 m3 (give or take), allowance must be made for
clothing, and the fact that you can't pack humans in the hold the same way
you can pack bricks together. There is some waste volume.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 22:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:37:38 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net> <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net> <3.0.3.32.20020203093030.006bf8ec@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <018c01c1ad07$157d6400$a672893e@fabian>

> At 05:22 PM 02/03/02 +1100, you wrote:
> >Terry Carlino wrote:
> >> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
> >> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
> >> degrade.
> >
> >Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
> >and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?
>
> In Traveller terms, we are hardly high tech.

I'd interpret teh long night's loss of interstellar trade as a use it or
lose it proposition. Interstellar trade stopped, so the infrastructure
required for interstellar trade wasn't maintained, and eventually the
knowledge of the technology required for interstellar trade vanished. A
Terran equivalent would be Easter Island. They arrived by boat across the
pacific, but stopped using boats for long sea voyages, and so lost that
technology. Scaling that forwards, we have a galacti community
collectively ceasing interstellar travel, and collectively losing the
related facilities and knowledge. It strains credulity, but I believe the
analogy is correct.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:06:10 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202040957450.16324-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Frank & Andrew:

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Andrew Whincup wrote :
>
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> > appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
>
> In normal circumstances, nothing.

 Hmm.. being in Dan Zen Ryu <Okazaki style> jiujitsu for almost 40 years.
Har to say what I carry isn't a weapon. Assorted coins, belt, boot laces,
swiss army knife <real one> Leatherman on the belt. Key ring with the pipe
tool. An the stick on the right hand side for what is left of the right
leg.

> It's too easy to kill people _without_ weapons, and I can't
> afford to get into trouble with the law.

 Yeah I had my time in bar fights shortly after I returned to the "real
world". Back when pitchers were made of glass., Stools, pool balls, pool
cues. Police got real familiar with me in the early 70s. Anything can be
turned into a weapon.

> I usually only carry weapons when going to archery, fencing, and
> SCA events.

 I carry mine to and from my Martial Arts class. Haven't done Archery for
many years. Fencing is dead in this area. So my 30+ year old equipment
hangs on the wall. SCA we are rejoining and have been accpeted in the
McGurns. Been about 10 years since we played in that group.

> When I go bush I take a Victorinox, a hand axe,  and usually a
> couple of other appropriate blades. On rare occassions, I'll
> actually carry a rifle, though as I don't own one, I'm usually
> carrying it for someone else in the party.

 Out in the bush. I take the patch knife, long knife. two 45 cal muzzel
loader pistols, one 36 cal muzzel loading revolver and my 45 cal Hawkins
rifle. A good hatchet and camp gear.

> Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
> fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

 Well here it is a commune of gamers and C=/Amiga users. All into Martial
ARts and weapondry. Wish I could say we never had a time that we neede to
pull out the weapons. But that isn't true. We do security for the land
lord's property. Been a few druggies that caused problems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:45:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:45:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>

Look at it a different way: why does California remain part of the United 
States? Or Manhattan? Why does Sydney or Bali or Istanbul remain part of 
their respective nations?

Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having the 
Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way 
from Trin.

Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much more 
effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage 
of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem, 
launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack. A 
continuous, rolling hit-and-run war of cruiser squadrons...or even better, a 
small fleet of battle tenders ferrying battle riders into the system.

Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays 
in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

******************
The only problem is that Trin *does* pay for the war fleet, either
way.  Look at the GWP of all the planets nearby; economically the
subsector consists of Trin, and ... umm, Trin.  The second largest
economy is about 100 times smaller.  If you think of Trin as being the
US, the subsector consists mainly of countries smaller than Fiji.  The
next largest economy corresponds to roughly New Zealand.  The third
largest corresponds roughly to Tasmania.
Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them.- - Tim

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:01:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:01:24 +1100
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <F158vLDSsBmCwH8zUGO00016968@hotmail.com>

Rupert and Tod

The fact that I can't carry mace, stunguns or firearms absolutely terrifies 
me. Australia's rate of violent crime has increased tenfold since we 
introduced the firearms ban -- just ask Charlton Heston and the NRL.

Chuck and his mates however didn't feel it necessary to consult anybody in 
Australia to make that assertion -- they just *knew* it had to be true.

*********************
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:
>It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.
Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a
handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it on 
you
for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range. 
However
you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason 
(though
the police carry pepper spray).- --"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:50:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pat Connaughton)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:50:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Friendly reminder
References: <B87C7DDD.2249F%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1ad21$1ba97160$a64cfea9@swbell.net>

Sorry about that. I appear to be subscribed on two different e-mail
addresses. I've tried to unsub several times with :patconnaughton@earthlink
Any suggestion?

Thanks
Pat



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:37:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:37:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>

"Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:

>Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having the 
>Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way 
>from Trin.

Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
the power nor the reason to attack Trin.

>Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much more 
>effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage 
>of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem, 
>launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.

Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.

>Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays 
>in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:30:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040030.QAA23010@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource
>> worlds trading with Industrial worlds.
>
>Probably.  I'm not at home at the moment (stealing work time), so I
>can't check.
>
>
>>  The other thing is, Trin has lots of links; it only has 4 at BTN
>> 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10, 30+ at 9.5.
>
>Yep, when doing it by hand I assumed that the links under BTN 10 would
>add up to less than BTN 10.5, which still looks right based on your
>figures.
>
>Does your program include trade links with the main body of the
>Imperium, or just within neighbouring sectors?  A rough analysis shows
>that the total trade volume should roughly double over that within the
>sector due to the *huge* number of worlds over 50 parsecs away.  My
>program didn't take those into account at all.

I only ran it on the Marches and Deneb; my program's capable of more,
but generating complete maps is rather time-consuming.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:00:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>; from ajackson@iii.com on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:37:27PM -0800
References: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020203180022.A3698@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:37:27PM -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

Which, neatly enough, isn't much of a loss in the Imperium, as opposed
to the USA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:50:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <200202032051.MAA16219@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203165005.006ad858@mindspring.com>

At 12:51 PM 02/03/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>>At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>>
>>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.
>
>However, creative stalling might lead to all sorts of useful concessions.

And this we have both a good adventure for the types who like palace
intrigue, and some wonderful backstory.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 02:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:43:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <007701c1ad25$ccdcc460$c7d7d63f@customer>

"Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
> "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having
the
> >Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long*
way
> >from Trin.
>
> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.

You seem to think that Trin exsist in a vacuum (no pun inteneded).  The
reason Trin is so safe is because the Imperium is so strong on it's
frontier.  But if every Hi-Pop world starts going off on it's own then the
Imperium ceases to exsist and that all that security ends.  Perhaps you
missed Mr Larsen's post so I'll repeat it here:
 <snip>
"Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin
would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at
the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or
potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far
more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium."

LEW

> >Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much
more
> >effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar
tonnage
> >of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem,
> >launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.
>
> Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.

Trin has an Imperial Navy base.  If they don't know where the SDBs are or
could be then they're as stupid as you think they are.  And if the IN is
that stupid then why is there an Imperium at all.

> >Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York
stays
> >in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

See above

All Trin is giving up is money which it seems to have an ample supply.  It
has the right to raise an armed force, the right to set it's own laws, right
to whatever government it chooses, even the right to make colonies of other
Imperial planets, pray tell what sovereignty is Trin giving up?

It seems to me you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, or are you a
decendent of 'Stonewall' Jackson that your so hot on succession.

Obviuosly this thread has reached the point of entrenchment where no one is
willing to concede their point and the arguments are becoming circler.

John Scarlett
Unionist



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:52:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:52:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
Message-ID: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>

1. We have a system which has developed independent of external
influence. 
2. It has 10s of billions of inhabitants. (Humans)
3. The region of space it inhabits is empty of other intelligent races
and none of those that do exist have explored this region yet.
4. For 400 years these inhabitants have explored and developed their
star system.
5. Recently government researchers have developed and successfully
tested a J1-drive.

What happens next, do you think?
How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?
How far do the initial explorations journey from home?
What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 02:26:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:26:36 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <OF8EC9B64A.BC8F676D-ONCA256B56.0002E4D3@backbone.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark replied to Tod's reply to me:
>>>Best theory I ever heard was that they work for an "energy allocation".

[SNIP]

>>Earned income?!  Can it be traded?  Does everyone get the same
>>allocation? Can you work more and earn more?

[SNIP]

>A better question is what do they use to pay for goods and services
>when they visit a backwater planet with no connection to the "Starfleet
>Credit Union" network?  Batteries?

More like "What do you wish for?" and then replicate it (as long as it 
doesn't break the Prime Directive - but since when did that stop anyone? 
;-).

Presumably the higher-ranking officers have authority to "spend" more 
energy, which is why they are the negotiators. (It couldn't be just 
because they are the stars of the show, and we need to see them more each 
episode - naah, nothing like that.)

Anyway, the "high-ranking officer" theory also goes some way towards 
answering Tod's question too. You earn more food stamps - sorry, "energy 
stamps" - depending on what you do. Most people just don't bother to count 
them anymore (money is not an issue in society) since you can get 
virtually anything you want - either by replication or holodeck - with 
your energy allocation.

Apparently, the ST ubermenchen* [sp?] have cured greed and the lust for 
power.


Yeah, right.


[FOOTNOTE: *as mentioned in a hilarious article in an old _Challenge_ mag 
I recently re-read. It goes something like this:

Scenario 1: Overwhelming alien power meets TOS crew. Crew pointlessly and 
ineffectually reacts with violence.
- Result? "The aliens, realising that humans are even dumber than worms, 
leave them alone and go away".
Scenario 2: Overwhelming alien power meets TNG crew. Crew initiates a 
round-robin discussion group, attempting to analyse why the aliens have 
this desire for power, and how to cure them from this barbarism, etc etc. 
At first threaten, and then initiate, self-destruct sequence.
- Same result!]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:28:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
References: <F158vLDSsBmCwH8zUGO00016968@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c1ad34$8214f240$c7d7d63f@customer>

I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives


> Rupert and Tod
>
> The fact that I can't carry mace, stunguns or firearms absolutely
terrifies
> me. Australia's rate of violent crime has increased tenfold since we
> introduced the firearms ban -- just ask Charlton Heston and the NRL.
>
> Chuck and his mates however didn't feel it necessary to consult anybody in
> Australia to make that assertion -- they just *knew* it had to be true.
>
> *********************
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
>
> On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:
> >It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have
mace.
> Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a
> handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it
on
> you
> for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range.
> However
> you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason
> (though
> the police carry pepper spray).- --"Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 03:09:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 19:09:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203185336.00a98980@mail.peak.org>

Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:

>I've sat back for a while and listened to the debate. I've found it very 
>interesting.
>
>Personnally I've found the armament that some of you consider "run of the 
>mill" frankly horrifying. When I say I feel overarmoured with my 
>victorinox, I mean that I get nervous when Policemen look in my direction 
>for too long. I also get very nervous when I forget to unclip it befoer 
>teaching in schools, 'cos I'll just got to prison for that if it's 
>discovered. [please hold flames until you've read the next paragraph]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of emotional and sexual immaturity."
-- Sigmund Freud

Your first sentence in the last paragraph could hardly be more plain. To 
quote *you*, "Have you considered professional help?"

>What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people 
>living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose 
>used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's 
>not allowed to carry them any more?

It certainly applies to me.  I'm uncomfortable when I travel to locations 
that don't allow me to defend myself (on commercial airlines, across most 
state lines, and any time I travel outside the U.S., to name a few 
places.)  I have very little faith in my fellow man when it comes to self 
defense.  In the U.S., contrary to popular belief, the police are not 
required by law to protect the citizenry.  In fact, it isn't even in their 
job description.  Forget the "To Serve and Protect" crap you see on the 
doors of police cruisers.  Their job is to apprehend criminals and 
investigate crimes.  Despite this fact, many people in this country are 
ardent advocates of private firearm ownership because "the police will 
protect us."

Bloody "head-in-the-sand" peasants. :^(

Sorry. End of rant.


         - Mark C.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 04:07:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
Message-ID: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>

From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>

     "What happens next, do you think?"


Sir,

     Whew. you want the short list?

     "How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?"

     What sort of government is it?  Is there a single, unitary government 
system wide or a patchwork league?  How much of their interplanetary space 
assets are in NGO hands and how much are in gov't hands? (In other words, do 
civvies flit about the home system in their own craft or do only gov't 
operated packets do that?)

     "How far do the initial explorations journey from home?"

     What are the systems one parsec away like?  Nothing but planetoid 
belts?  Any T-norm or T-prime worlds?  How about fuel sources?

     "What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?"

     This question makes me believe that the gov't is system wide, very 
centralized, and doesn't want jump tech in civvies hands.
     Once again, that depends on how much of the interplanetary hardware is 
in civvies hands to begin with.  If all travel and commerce is carried by 
gov't packets, then all the settlements in the system are at the gov't's 
mercy.  If that's so, the independent enterprise may not have any place 
which to base out of.  They may have to stay out of the home system except 
for furtive visits.  Any of the goods and parts they need would either have 
to be bought on the black market or pirated.
     Look at Cherryh's "Downbelow Station", even though the setting is 
rather different.  The Sol Company Fleet is cut off from all normal channels 
for parts, supplies, even recruits.  They live by pirating (mostly) Union 
shipping and illicit trading.

     Let's posit another scenario.  Make the gov't less dark.  There's lots 
of interplanetary hardware in civvie hands, the authorities don't/won't mind 
private jump vessels, and the only real hurdle are any startup costs.  You 
could end up with most exploration and colonization being handled by 
chartered companies, like in Piper's future history.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 03:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:49:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1ad2e$e56d7020$2f7de40c@loki>

What sort of government?
	Let's go for a single benevolent oligarchy.

Intra-system transport?
	How 'bout 90% independent enterprise.

Systems within 1 parsec?
	Let's say we have 25% density and GT:FI frequency of types

Nature of government in relation to J-tech?
	Let's say they'd like to keep a handle on it until they are
comfortable that the universe is as sparsely inhabited as GT:FI would
seem.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:21:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203225925.02208ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:43 GMT, tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:
>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT 
practice.  It is significant to note that the entries on "Travel Zone" and 
"Red Zone" do NOT mention the IISS (despite the fact that the IISS and the 
IN can interdict worlds, prompting a red zone classification).

At least IMTU, travel zones are advisories published by the TAS, and have 
no official status* with the Imperium.  I'd suggest that as a matter of 
policy, the Imperium does not have any sort of official rating, class, or 
"favored world" status.  A world is either a member of the Imperium, or 
Interdicted (note that interdiction almost always carries a Red Zone rating 
from the TAS).

>something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator ctually 
>visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and drinks, 
>persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in question).

I certainly could go for this scenario.  TAS ratings are, of course, going 
to be advised by - and perhaps even prompted by - data from the IISS.

* Also note that IMTU, the Travellers' Aid Society, while not an Imperial 
institution, has a lot of influence over star travel by making advisories 
(such as the travel zones), recommending procedures, and issuing 
certifications.  It 's the TAS that sets standards for starship crew; the 
Imperium makes no regulations about the fitness (or not) of civilian 
starship operators, the size of the crew, and required skills for critical 
positions.

As part of a program to ensure the safety of it's members, the TAS has 
minimum standards, both for ship's equipment and crew skills, in order for 
a vessel to certify for carriage of TAS members.  TAS travel vouchers 
cannot be redeemed unless the ship can show compliance with TAS 
certification requirements during the trip in question.  Unofficially (but 
quite effectively) other organizations such as shippers' groups and 
insurance companies, subscribe to the TAS standards.  A ship which can't 
manage to meet TAS certification requirements quickly finds itself unable 
to obtain the best insurance rates, and

The TAS data feed (which includes library data updates, travel advisories, 
and certification grant/revoke lists) is an important source of additional 
revenue for the Society.  Members may access this data freely, but other 
interested organizations must pay a subscription fee - which can be 
significant.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:36:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:36:39 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>

Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> writes regarding ship design:

>Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

Hmm. An amusing mix of TFT and Warpwar, that...

To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking for a 
system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG and MT (which 
is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such a system needs to be 
compatible with some higher detail version so that the gearheads ARE happy, 
and will do most of YOUR work for you by happily chunking out designs in high 
detail (since very few will turn down the extra details if someone else did 
the work...)

 As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying, I'm 
sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in that area. I'm 
one of those who will pass up the ship with hot design specs for the dumpy 
ship with a name, color text and *deckplans*. A starship is part of the 
roleplaying environment, and the more the design system can tell me about the 
ship ahead of time, the better. If a ship description will get me that little 
headstart of providing length and config along with the displacement, that's 
a whole set of aesthetic concerns I don't need to worry about.

(parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has largely lost 
me. I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE community seems interested 
beyond stats and background justification (some of it pretty weak, frankly). 
As a result, one of the best resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a 
useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

 Lastly, in defense of higher detail systems, if my Engineer character (and 
player!) can't produce technobabble without GM assistance, he shouldn't be a 
PC...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:11:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 00:11:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203234108.021eaec0@mail.qrc.com>

Hi,

I'm going to chime in on this debate.  I believe the solution to this 
problem is that the Imperium imposes certain minimum legal standards on all 
member worlds.  These standards are intended to be relatively 
non-intrusive, and cover only the situations absolutely necessary for 
Imperial membership.  Worlds are, of course, free to enact local laws in 
addition to or more restrictive than Imperial law, but cannot bypass or 
circumvent Imperial law.

These Imperial laws would include:
- Recognition of Imperial governmental authority, including the 
jurisdiction of Imperial nobles, officers, courts, and proclamations (both 
when Imperial jurisdiction trumps local authority, and when it does not);
- Basic commercial law, covering contracts with off-world businesses, or 
contracts for interstellar commerce, and recognition of Imperial currency 
as legal tender for all debts; and
- Basic criminal law, defining murder, piracy and theft, kidnapping, 
extortion and fraud.

Thus, if a world which had a murder law like the British one quoted joined 
the Imperium, the world would be required to enforce both it's own 
definition and the Imperial one.  The Imperial murder law probably defines 
the victim as any sophont, and likely has a shorter time frame than the 
British example quoted.  On a world with such a law, a murder could be 
tried under either (or both) laws, depending on applicability.  For example 
a Vargr victim would not qualify under the British version of the law (and 
thus would be tried under the Imperial definition), while a slow-acting 
poison that took 6 months to kill the victim may not be murder under the 
Imperial law (but could be tried using the British definition).

IMTU, worlds are responsible for investigating, prosecuting, and punishing 
crimes that occur within their jurisdiction.  This includes both Imperial 
crimes and crimes against the world's own laws.  In addition, criminals who 
commit an Imperial crime within a world's jurisdiction can be extradited 
from Imperial jurisdiction or from other worlds.  Criminals who commit acts 
that are crimes under non-Imperial "local" laws (but which have not also 
committed Imperial crimes) cannot be extradited*.

Imperial officials (generally the Nobility and the Imperial Navy) are 
responsible for investigating, prosecuting, and punishing Imperial crimes 
that occur within Imperial jurisdiction (generally, on starports, Imperial 
facilities, and in space).  Criminals who are apprehended by Imperial 
authorities (but who did not actually commit a crime in Imperial 
jurisdiction) are normally returned to the world where the crime was 
committed for trial.

* One exception to this being bounty hunters.  Worlds may offer bounties 
for the return of wanted criminals or suspects.  It is legal for a bounty 
hunter to apprehend and return the criminal to the world they are wanted 
on, provided they break no Imperial or local laws in doing so.  Positive 
identification of the criminal and the bounty warrant is required (and may 
need to be presented to the satisfaction of Imperial authorities to avoid a 
kidnapping charge).

I believe this set of definitions covers the situations being discussed in 
the current murder thread fairly effectively, without doing a lot of damage 
to the principle that the Imperium rules the space between the worlds, but 
generally keeps a "hands-off" approach to worlds themselves.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:21:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:21:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Random T5 Musings: CharGen
Message-ID: <000e01c1ad33$7d3a3ab0$2f7de40c@loki>

T5 Character Generation

Traveller was marked by its character generation system. The ability to
have a character with experience at the start of play was fundamental to
the game. Since those early days we have had the random generation
systems and the player selection systems. I think T5 needs to have both
tied inextricably interwoven. If I roll dice to create my character or
build one by choices or some combination of the two, I should arrive at
similar outcomes. 

Building a character could start with some selections, involve some dice
rolls and then end up with some more selections. Building a character
could begin with some dice rolls, then involve some selections and then
back to the dice again. Building a character could be dice all the way
through. Building a character could be a series of selections. All of
these would come from the same chapter, the same tables, the same text.
One would not be a variant on the standard but all are there by design.

Just a thought.




---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:27:32 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <28.219ab208.298f75c4@aol.com>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> asks me:

>Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
>a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
>you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

My preference is for something pioneered by High Guard but most closely 
approached by MT and FF&S1 (though in different ways): Initial text on the 
"big picture", like what you need to make it a starship vs a spacecraft, 
weapon technology/assumptions & descriptions, typical armor/weapon/sensor 
levels for civilian vs paramil vs military, that sort of thing. Any tables 
are purely explanatory, or are knowledge you need for design work, but not 
actually part of the design process (like the max jump per TL, frex).
 This is followed by the clump of tables as seen in HG and MT: this is the 
raw stuff of design work, BUT it is annotated thoroughly, so that you don't 
need to go back to the starting text to figure out how or why to use a 
particular table. As such, after your third design, you can open to the first 
tables page and work through JUST the tables to design a ship.

 This is the ideal, regardless of complexity level.  Mr Thomas (to use our 
other conversant as a guinea pig) would probably love to have ship design 
boil down to a single page table, from which he pulls components to reach his 
desired tonnage. At the Book 2 level, it's pretty doable, frankly (and if you 
have an early edition like I do, it really *necessary* to compile that table 
so you don't dig through text for well-hidden formulas EVERY TIME).  High 
Guard and MT are very good expressions of my ideal for their levels of 
complexity, and the highest level (we've seen) is best represented by FF&S1 
(which uses the scavenger hunt format "this what you need; go <here> and get 
it, then come back" very well, with each of the subsections very well 
explained internally). FF&S2 failed primarily because it nested the scavenger 
hunt format two levels deep by failing to annotate the tables or shift them 
into the text.

 QSDS as presented in v1.5 is acceptable to me at the largest layout level 
mostly because it is a fairly *short* system to use. Where it fails is at the 
level of tables and text, a problem that could be quickly solved by a decent 
page-layout attack, rendering unruly tables down to one page or less each, 
and visible (since most of us don't have duplex printing) at the same time as 
the text that explains the table. Heck, reducing the font size to 
print-prefered sizes (instead of the screen-prefered size it is now) would 
solve most of the problems all by itself.
 The goal is to have the table and all of its immediate explanations visible 
at the same time (preferably on the same page), so that there is *maybe* one 
other page reference you need at the same time.

 Picture the following scenario: you are trying to reconcile your Manuever 
drive desires with your powerplant requirements and volume constraints. 
Volume is being taken care of by your worksheet (ie. not in the book), but 
you are flipping between the Drive and Power pages constantly. If each of 
those is one page (or ALL one page, like HG) then you've no problem, but if 
the tables you need in both sections are spread out over three pages each, 
with column headers not carried over to each page, you WILL give yourself a 
headache, and quickly. The same design system has been rendered MUCH harder 
to use simply due to layout.

 That help?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:36:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:36:55 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202040536.g145aeI17460@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/03/02 at 11:36 PM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> writes regarding ship
>design:

>>Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
>>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

>Hmm. An amusing mix of TFT and Warpwar, that...

>To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking
>for a  system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG
>and MT (which  is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such
>a system needs to be  compatible with some higher detail version so
>that the gearheads ARE happy,  and will do most of YOUR work for you
>by happily chunking out designs in high  detail (since very few will
>turn down the extra details if someone else did  the work...)

> As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying,
>I'm  sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in
>that area. I'm  one of those who will pass up the ship with hot
>design specs for the dumpy  ship with a name, color text and
>*deckplans*. A starship is part of the  roleplaying environment, and
>the more the design system can tell me about the  ship ahead of time,
>the better. If a ship description will get me that little  headstart
>of providing length and config along with the displacement, that's  a
>whole set of aesthetic concerns I don't need to worry about.

I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
*do* affect roleplaying in my games.

>(parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has
>largely lost  me. 

>I LOVE FF&S1, 

Same here!  FFS2 just isn't as good as FFS1. Yes, FFS1 needed/needs
work, but there's all that alter tech in there that I want.

>but very few of the online TNE
>community seems interested  beyond stats and background justification
>(some of it pretty weak, frankly).  As a result, one of the best
>resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a  useability
>wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

I tend to agree, but then, my interest in TNE isn't really the GDW
setting.

> Lastly, in defense of higher detail systems, if my Engineer
>character (and  player!) can't produce technobabble without GM
>assistance, he shouldn't be a  PC...

LOL! <g>

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 00:46:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204004241.020a9ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:15:02, Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net> asked:
>I noticed that the Size column was missing

Oops, sorry!

>I began to wonder what the criteria was for determining size.

Size was determined in the T4 combat rules as:

Size  Displacement
5     less than 1 dton
6     1-9 dtons
7     10-99 dtons
8     100-999 dtons
9     1000-9999 dtons

>I'm putting together a small cross-platform application

I'll be interested in taking a look at it when it's done.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:32:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203225925.02208ec0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEGJDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

>> I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT
practice.

*** There needs to be SOME way for the Imperial Government to apply travel
designations to certain areas.  I think the Scout Service would reccommend
Amber Zones and I doubt that TAS would ignore the suggestion without good
reason.  It is like real life.  The U.S. Government issues a advistories
about certain areas.  The Scouts would too.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:17:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040717.XAA27335@molly.iii.com>

"John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
>> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
>> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>
>You seem to think that Trin exsist in a vacuum (no pun inteneded).  The
>reason Trin is so safe is because the Imperium is so strong on it's
>frontier.

Actually, it's because there's no significant threats within 20 pc.  It would
be trivial to send a fleet past the imperial lines, assuming you really had
a reason to go that far.

>"Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin
>would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at
>the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or
>potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far
>more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium."

Well, 'security in numbers' is actually less relevant than the fact that
the 3I will intervene to protect Trin from Mora, and vice versa.  Most 
of Trin's likely enemies are other members of the 3I.
>>
>> Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.
>
>Trin has an Imperial Navy base.  If they don't know where the SDBs are or
>could be then they're as stupid as you think they are.  And if the IN is
>that stupid then why is there an Imperium at all.

There's a limited number of useful targets in a system (usually one), so 
if the SDBs are protecting that target, there's no way to hit and run.

Aside from this, a typical SDB can move 20+ AU in a week.  Information 
about the location of fleets before jumping out is totally useless.

>All Trin is giving up is money which it seems to have an ample supply.  It
>has the right to raise an armed force, the right to set it's own laws, right
>to whatever government it chooses, even the right to make colonies of other
>Imperial planets, pray tell what sovereignty is Trin giving up?

That's part of the original question: just what powers does the Imperium
reserve for itself?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:19:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:19:13 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEFBDPAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Michael Barry
Sent: Monday, 4 February 2002 7:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium


Look at it a different way: why does California remain part of the United
States? Or Manhattan? Why does Sydney or Bali or Istanbul remain part of
their respective nations?

Snip

Well in the case of an Australia state there has to be a nationwide
referrendum (not limited to the state in question) two thirds of the states
have to agree by I believe a two thirds majority.

As a matter of interest Western Australia did pass a secession referendum
which was promptly ignored by the Commonwealth. (In WA there used to be a
saying that Commonwealth meant New South Wales and Victoria got all the
wealth while Western Australia did all the work,)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:25:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:25:11 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1ad4d$14b75210$6401a8c0@goca>

I remember Perry Rhodan, and at one time had the entire translated
amount of the series.  Now all I have left is #1 and #2.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:04
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de>
 
> > Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> > advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, and
> > Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points. Advantages that
> > offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game should not have
> > anything more than a nominal cost.
> >
> Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15
> points. I can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper -
> it is, after all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander
> tune* Of course you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and
> immunities too, less you wont have too much fun with it ;-)

That's one of my major problems with GURPS.  Charging that 
many points for an Advantage that is cool that makes the character 
more powerful or more versatile is completely unfair.
 
> IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer
> something like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long
> way to achieve them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

I agree that players love this sort of thing, but why does charging 
more points better motivate PCs?  I'd say a far better answer is to 
simply make the advantage not available during character 
generation and then give out hints on how it might be obtained.
 
> Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled
> after the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF
> series over here) Cellular Activator. 

Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
Does anyone else remember these books.

Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> It's an egg-shaped metallic
> device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> Regeneration (probably even both).
> 
> If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.

Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary. 
 
> But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 08:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:21:41 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> On 3 Feb 2002, at 10:03, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here.
> > I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age
> > 14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
> > Does anyone else remember these books.
> > 
> > Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> 
> Don't know about the US, but over here there's a large pile of 'em in
> my favourite secondhand book store. I grabbed one the other day and
> the first thing I noticed was how atrocious the style was. Whether
> that was the foult of the original authors or the translator I do not
> know. 

Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released 
at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a 
young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly 
disappointed.  OTOH, in the back of the US edition there were 
often serialized versions of some extremely fascinating and cool 
old SF from the 30s and 40s.  I love stuff like that, I've even read 
John Campbell's Arcott, Morey, and Wade  (sp) books.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:15:02 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1ad5c$87c64900$3874893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>

> >Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of
having the
> >Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long*
way
> >from Trin.
>
> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier
worlds.
> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have
neither
> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>
> >Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York
stays
> >in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

If an analogy is made with the USA, California is subsidising the
defence[1] of Vietnam, South Korea, Afghanistan, etc, so that the battles
aren't fought on California. While Trin/California are probably capable of
defending themselves adequately as independants, it is equally true that
wars fought at home tend to deter investors. By banding together with the
greater powers, they have the means to ensure that the wars are fought
elsewhere, protecting the local economy.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



[1] No debates on the 'real' motives of the US actions here please.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:21:53 +1300
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5F1791.19676.2844E8@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 0:21, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released 
> at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a 
> young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly 
> disappointed.

Actually I'm fairly sure if I'd read them at that age I'd have liked them, too. 
Afterall I was a great fan of E. E. "Doc" Smith's Skylark and Lensman series.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:15:38 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5F161A.4624.228C51@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 23:36, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> (parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has largely lost me.
> I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE community seems interested beyond
> stats and background justification (some of it pretty weak, frankly). As a
> result, one of the best resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a
> useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

That's probably because deckplans and colour descriptions are the most brain 
intensive parts of designing a ship. One of the reasons I find HG (and many MT) 
designs of little use is that they too tend to lack these things, and you can 
infer even less from the stats than you can from a FFS1 (or 2) design.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:45:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 02:45:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020204104538.42618.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>

'Course, j-drive could always be an open secret in that system, sorta
like the alien technology the U.S. got from that there crash site in
Roswell, NM, awhile back ...



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 11:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:14:58 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <20020204104538.42618.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHMELMCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> 'Course, j-drive could always be an open secret in that system, sorta
> like the alien technology the U.S. got from that there crash site in
> Roswell, NM, awhile back ...
>
You mean that unshielded gravomagnetic crap that fries every frickin'
transistor even remotely in range? ;-))

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 11:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:12:29 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELMCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released
> at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a
> young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly
> disappointed.  OTOH, in the back of the US edition there were
> often serialized versions of some extremely fascinating and cool
> old SF from the 30s and 40s.  I love stuff like that, I've even read
> John Campbell's Arcott, Morey, and Wade  (sp) books.
>
I don't think that you would be disappointed by the newer ones. Granted,
they are released at a rate of one per week (even if written by several
authors) but they have a really high rating when it comes to things like
characterization of protagonists and pseudo-scientific coherence and
plausibility. I wouldn't place them en par with David Weber or Peter F.
Hamilton, but quite close - and that's really not bad for a SF "pulp
magazine" with a current count of 2110 :-))

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 14:41:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:41:17 -0000
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>

Timothy Little wrote:
> In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
> building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
> Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
> would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
> the standard universe.
> 
> I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
> if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
> could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
> the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
> an import utility from Galactic data files.

I'm doing exactly that.  I looked at MySQL  but  it  doesn't  yet
have a procedural language (so no triggers or stored procedures).
Instead I'm developing on Interbase, which is open source  as  of
version 6, and later hope to have ports  to  Oracle  and  MS  SQL
Server.  There is an early screenshot plus SQL scripts to  create
the database on my website but  to  be  honest  it'll  be  months
before I have anything releaseable for the main  program  itself.
I'm currently building import/export  filters  for  Galactic  SEC
files, Galactic SAR files, World Builder and World Builder Deluxe
WBS files (v1.0.0 and v1.1.0), Heaven & Earth HES files,  TrTools
UWP files, and maybe some others (hopefully XML).

So if you want the stucture of an empty database you can populate
with your own data see my site,  but  if  you  want  a  populated
database you'll need to wait a  little  longer  (or  try  an  XML
alternative).

Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/tu.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 12:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:20:11 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005801c1ad76$631744a0$d8408690@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Erm, that's not how I read it. Zapata, Pancho Villa and Venustiano
> Carranza (commander of the Constitutional Army) entered Mexico City in
> 1914, following the assasination of Fransisco Madero. Fighting broke out
> and the anarcho-syndicalists of the Casa del Obrero Mundial joined
> Carranza in 1916. Zapata was driven back into the province of Morelos and
> finally betrayed and killed in 1919. When the fighting originally broke
> out Mexico certainly didn't have a central government.

Carranza's mob became the state.  Zapata and Villa let them.  OK, they may
not have had much choice, but still...  Part of their problem, of course,
was that peasant armies, like those they were leading, have always been
reluctant to go too far from home, or stay away from home for too long.

Letting Carranza's forces consolidate was the fatal mistake.  To have
prevented it, it would have been necessary to have established a
revolutionary state in their place, that would have carried out land reforms
and generally extended all the good revolutionary stuff throughout Mexico.
But that is just the good old Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat, which
is anathema to anarchists.

> As to naivete and childeshness: you wouldn't be referring to our erstwhile
> neighbours the Greens would you? ;)

No, but now you mention them...  : )

I was actually thinking about outfits like the Black Blocs, not to mention
the lifestyle "anarchists", and, well, it was pretty much a generalised
slam.

All this is OT, so I will end my participation in this thread at this point.

Anyway, an OBTRAV:  During the period of the Mexican Revolution we were
raving about above, Mexico had a recognised government (Carranza).  In
addition, there were more or less independent (technically less, actually
more...) rulers in the north (Villa) and south (Zapata).  From the "outside"
Mexico was technically united, but in practice it was balkanised.

This can happen in Traveller.  There can be recognised planetary governments
that do not actually control their whole worlds/systems.  The result can be
merc tickets, or just nasty surprises...

And another good one:  Pancho Villa, of course, lead a raid across the US
border, provoking a US counter-invasion.  This, in turn, sparked a
nationalist backlash in Mexico, which strengthened Villa and Zapata's
forces....  Pulling this kind of stunt in the Third Imperium might not be a
good idea.  Then again...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com









From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 12:45:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:45:39 +0200
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204132259.00c091a0@ee.tut.fi>

LKW wrote:

 > Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from
 > butterflies?

	I just went through my knife collection, and noticed that all my
	balisong knifes (split-grip Filipino folder) made by "Benchmade"
	have the butterfly logo stamped on the ricasso. Even the
	"Benchmade" company name is written so that the letter "m" in
	the middle is a butterfly.

	IIRC, similar name-oddity exists in French. When self-loading
	pistols become available to consumers, the "Browning" company
	was very prominent. Therefore the name "browning" become a
	synonym for self-loading pistol.

Mark C. wrote:

 > Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
 > of the day.

	I have carried a plain-edge "SpyderCo Endura" folder with me
	for a few years as a general use bladed tool, and I really feel
	naked without it. Other bladed tools (puukko, leuku, kassara,
	vesuri, kirves, hukari) are too large to be carried around in
	public areas without notice.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 13:40:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:40:33 +1000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a701c1ad81$bf6a84a0$d8408690@computer>

> From: "Robert A. Uhl"
> > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> one is not properly equipped.

Well, I moved from Australia to Papua New Guinea (and back again, but that's
another story).  That's as good a change from higher to lower law levels as
you could want.

I don't own a gun in Australia.  I didn't own one in PNG.  I wasn't
stressed.

Of course, technically the gun laws in PNG are as tight as they are in
Australia.  It's just the enforcement that's non-existent in most of the
country.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 13:29:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:29:51 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Hypothetical 1
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c1ad81$beb1e300$d8408690@computer>

> From: "n2sami"
> What happens next, do you think?
> How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?
> How far do the initial explorations journey from home?
> What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?

All of this depends on economics.  Are there any bucks in space exploration?
If you are doing "pure science", that is, your explorations aren't expected
to make an immediate profit, interstellar exploration will be relatively
sporadic, and directed towards "interesting" places, some of which might be
quite a fair way away.

I would imagine that "initial explorations" would tend to be relatively
short ranged "there and back again" missions, limited mostly, I suspect by
what can be achieved on a single load of fuel.

To be honest, I suspect that the "realistic" case would have no relationship
at all to the space opera model used in Traveller.  That's not a problem -
the genre just has its conventions.  One of these is that Earth-like worlds
can be relatively easily colonised.

Government monopolies/independent enterprise?  Well, that depends on what
your society is like.  The Space and Scientific Workers' Collective would
probably follow the "pure science" model, while GreedyCorp would look for
nearby rocks to stripmine.

In short, more information, please.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 14:56:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:56:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <00a701c1ad81$bf6a84a0$d8408690@computer>
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204095547.00a85888@mail.charter.net>

This has gone fare enough off topic that I replied to the chat list.
IMO, that's the best place to continue this thread.

At 11:40 PM 2/4/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl"
> > > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> > Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> > needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> > one is not properly equipped.
>
>Well, I moved from Australia to Papua New Guinea (and back again, but that's
>another story).  That's as good a change from higher to lower law levels as
>you could want.
>
>I don't own a gun in Australia.  I didn't own one in PNG.  I wasn't
>stressed.
>
>Of course, technically the gun laws in PNG are as tight as they are in
>Australia.  It's just the enforcement that's non-existent in most of the
>country.
>
>Alan Bradley
>abradley1@bigpond.com

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:21:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen
Message-ID: <20020204152154.75861.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> Subject: Random T5 Musings: CharGen
> 
> T5 Character Generation
> 
...SNIP...
> Building a character could
> be dice all the way
> through. Building a character could be a series of
> selections. All of
> these would come from the same chapter, the same
> tables, the same text.
> One would not be a variant on the standard but all
> are there by design.

With a little bit of GM interference and some "House
Rules" this is easily accomplished with the CT basic
Character Generation Rules.  I will often use the 12
(or sometimes 15) dice roll to generate stats.  I
don't necessarily roll 2D6 for each stat.  Roll all
the dice at once and pair dice or just use that number
of "stat points".

As to the skills and terms, I think that is where the
GM interference might come in handy.  Players will
tend to take the better course for their characters
("Yeah, he got commission and promotion in his first
Navy term even though he had SOC 6").  The GM will
need to police the abuse of simple selections.  I can
see some use for a point base here and it would
definitely be attractive to players used to a point
based system.  As to skills, my first GM let us pick
from the list rather than roll for a skill.  I liked
that a lot as a beginner player, I wanted to play what
I wanted to play.  Now that I am older and more
experienced, I want to see who the character is and
build the back story then play who the character is.

Summary:  I agree with you and I don't think there is
much work involved to fit the two together.  Although
the Advanced Generation may be a different story.


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:42:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204095547.00a85888@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B883EBD1.233FB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/4/02 6:56 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> This has gone fare enough off topic that I replied to the chat list.
> IMO, that's the best place to continue this thread.
> 

Agreed. I was about to suggest the same thing.  A discussion about attitudes
on weapons in the Imperium is certainly appropriate on the TML.  When
current terran politics enters the discussion, it needs to go to tml-chat.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:52:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B883EE2B.23400%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

In case anyone missed it, I am trying to build a directory of ongoing
Traveller PBeMs at http://www.travellercentral.com.  If you have a Traveller
PBeM, and want to list it, send me you info.

I will also host any Traveller PBeMs (within reason) on the travellercentral
majordomo server.  Again, email for info.


Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:37:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:37:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TNE BARD Pages (was Re: [TML] Re: T5)
Message-ID: <20020204153751.7879.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: T5
> 
> On 3 Feb 2002, at 23:36, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > (parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the
> TNE crowd has largely lost me.
> > I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE
> community seems interested beyond
> > stats and background justification (some of it
> pretty weak, frankly). As a
> > result, one of the best resources for TNE designs,
> the BARD Pages, are a
> > useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)
> 
> That's probably because deckplans and colour
> descriptions are the most brain 
> intensive parts of designing a ship. One of the

This is partly true.  Although I can't speak to BARD
since I left it in 1996, I know that when we started
it "years and years" ago, I intended to do deck plans
with the ships I designed (and some for the ships
others designed).  I also intended to do world maps
for all the worlds we detailed.  The problem with both
is that they are, indeed, brain intensive, but they
are also time intensive.  I would expect based on some
recent conversations that Lewis could easily verify
the same.

Had I full time to work on this, I would have done
many more world maps and deck plans.  Maybe as I look
around I'll find some useful program to do the plans
in and be able to format them in a useable format.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:39:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:39:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B883EB22.233F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/3/02 2:04 PM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people
> living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose used
> to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not
> allowed to carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than
> someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held a real gun that
> works I'm not sure, I think they might be comparable. I'd not really thought
> about the psychological/sociological effects of law levels and what it might
> do to people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...
> 
> Thoughts anyone?
> ---
> Shan Andy

Yes, mindset is definitely different IMTU, much as it vary's right here.
Most of my players have the 'Regina' mindset.  I run the highport there as a
rough and exiting town, like Singapore in the 1930.  Some of my players are
from more 'civilized' worlds, and are shocked when they encounter this
mindset.

Your comments really got me thinking as I was watching "Black Hawk Down".
The scenes from within Mogadishu, where everyone has an AK made me think I
would certainly feel naked without one, were I there.

Just judging from this list, it would appear that how someone feels about
being armed will probably be more related to culture than law level.  There
will be some worlds that have high law level where people will arm
themselves regardless of the law (PNG) and some where the idea is
unthinkable.  This could be also true of low law level worlds.  In my own
state of Oregon it's quite legal to go about armed (as long as it is
concealed, we just don't want to see it) but attitudes vary between large
cities and rural areas.  And while one can carry a concealed handgun,
carrying a concealed knife (except small blades) is suspect. In other
countries, having a large 'chopper' on one's belt is absolutely normal. In
others, toting an AK-47 is typical behavior.

The likelihood of a uniform culture within the Imperium is small, IMHO, and
hence attitudes about weapons, like everything else, will vary from world to
world.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:23:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:23:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen
In-Reply-To: <20020204152154.75861.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1ad8f$f425a180$2f7de40c@loki>

Hello Paul.

I kept my original post purposely vague but let me expand a bit now. I
don't propose that T5 ought to keep CharGen from CT. No basic CharGen
and advanced CharGen. I proposed what I did as the STARTING point. That
aspect of Traveller, as it has existed, that should be kept. It may be
that CT basic CharGen is the starting point but I would caution those
who care, not to start there, but to start from some first principle of
CharGen. My recommendation for that first principle is what my email
beginning this thread was meant to be.

Same goal, different focus. Now all that behind us let's examine your
comments.

Would it be that easy to modify CT basic CharGen into a random or
deliberate or combination activity? You mention a referee, but referees
always modify and tweak that isn't quite the same as rules someone on
temporary assignment in a hole on the Antarctican continent without a
phone or a companion could use to generate 1001 player characters. With
a random base system he could do that in 10ms after writing a computer
program to generate them. Also, he could do it in 10 minutes (per
character) with a program like those designed to create GURPS Traveller
characters. I don't want the power to live with the referee (he is more
powerful than evolution already) but for CharGen I want it to be with
the player (who will still have to live inside the framework the referee
will lay down.)


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:54:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Call for PBeM players
Message-ID: <B883EEC5.23401%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

I have been hosting a Traveller PBeM for another GM, and am planning on
trying my hand at running one myself.  I currently have one player signed
up, and have room for 7 more.  If you are interested in getting in to a Trav
PBeM, you can find more info at http://www.travllercentral.com.  Follow the
link to PBeM (obviously).

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:29:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #120
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112536.01d47e18@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:46:13, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a month, and 
>the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was bottled.

Yes; it's quite do-able.  I'd probably do one lager (since I do have a 
carboy and a lagering cooler) and three ales.  The lager should be ready to 
bottle around the same time as the last of the ales is drinkable (and the 
first of them is getting really good).

>Lots of bottles, though.

Yeah; I'd be worried about how to ship them at reasonable cost.  Cases of 
beer are heavy, and I doubt I could take them with me on the airplane.

>I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets of 
>beer from here to the US would be. :)

Yes.  I'm thinking that Cornelius kegs would be a good way of handling 
it.  Unfortunately, they're expensive and I don't have the kegs or tap system.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:20:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:20:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204111130.01c2dd30@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:37:53, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" wrote:
>Trin threatens not to pay its share of the costs (claiming that they need 
>the money to offset the damage the depot is going to do to its economy) 
>unless it is located in its subsector. The question is who wins this 
>argument [...] (IMHO, it will be Trin in this case, either the depot's 
>location will be changed or Trin will not have to pay)

IMHO (and assuming that the Sector Duke is not an idiot) both and neither 
win.  A compromise is worked out that isn't ideal for either side, but 
allows both to save face and claim political victory.  Perhaps something to 
the effect that Trin will be guaranteed the receipt of Naval construction 
contracts of a certain magnitude over the next few decades, in exchange for 
dropping the economic hardship argument.  This allows Trin to "win" (since 
they can claim that the construction contracts offset the economic loss 
from the Depot location and tax increase), at the same time the Imperium 
"wins" (since they get Trin's government to agree to pay the tax).

Yes, it's less efficient to build ships on Trin and send them over to the 
Depot, but that's a small cost to pay (particularly when distributed around 
the whole of the Spinward Marches).  It could also be argued that this 
preserves important reserve shipbuilding capacity and expertise in Trin.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:40:32 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 3: History (part B - long)
Message-ID: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>

So far, so lack of response :-(



HISTORY OF VINCENNES - CONTINUED


Rise and Fall:  Vincennes in the Civil War Era 589 - 696

The bad feeling between Vincennes and the Imperial government
gradually faded into the background as tensions with the Zhodani grew
along the frontier.  Vincennes' new shipbuilding industry proved
invaluable in strengthening the Imperial Navy to resist the Outworld
Coalition, and much of Admiral Plankwell's victorious fleet in the
(1st) Frontier War was manufactured in Vincennes orbit.  

With the outbreak of the Civil War, however, the ambitious young
Emperor of Vincennes Armand II saw an opportunity to re-establish his
world's power and "reverse the humiliation of 506".  With most of the
Imperial fleets withdrawn to the Core to fight for the Imperial
throne, there was nothing to stop Armand's bid for glory.  In 609, he
declared the formation of the Vincennes Zone of Protection, a region
five parsecs in radius.  These worlds could now rely on the Vincennes
planetary navy for protection against "rampaging Vargr and Zhodani" in
the absence of the Imperial Navy.  (It was no coincidence that the
Zone covered the same area as the Second Imperium-era Kingdom of
Paven).

Some worlds were willing to accept this "protection" voluntarily;  but
when Achemadon/Deneb (1224) and Kauai/Deneb (1520) resisted Armand
ordered them bombarded from orbit.  That quickly brought the
dissenters into line;  those planets which had fleets of their own
(none of them as large or capable as that of Vincennes) saw them
integrated into the Vincennes navy.  Vincennien garrisons were imposed
on the worlds in the Zone, paid for by "contributions" levied on each
planet.  The Imperial authorities protested these developments but
could do nothing to prevent them: any Imperial commander who amassed a
force large enough to challenge the Vincennes navy saw greater profit
in heading off through Corridor towards Capital than in squabbling
over this backwater.  

When the Second Frontier War broke out, Armand initially stayed
neutral, contenting himself with informing the Imperial High Command
that since his forces were protecting their rear area, they could
concentrate all their ships on fighting the Zhodani.  However, when
the young Admiral Alkhalikoi took over command and started winning
significant victories, Armand saw the political benefit in sending a
detachment of his navy to serve under her as an "allied fleet"
(Arbellatra herself consistently referred to it as the "Vincennes
colonial squadron", however).  Once Arbellatra had secured a
negotiated peace with the Zhodani, Armand was one of the advisors who
counselled her to make an attempt for the Imperial throne.  In return
for his support, he asked for formal recognition of the Empire of
Vincennes as an independent ally of the Imperium.  Arbellatra told him
that she agreed to this, and so the Vincennes Expeditionary Force
accompanied her to Capital while the rest of Armand's navy stayed to
strengthen its grip on the Zone.  

Arbellatra won the Civil War, although the Vincennes portion of her
fleet never returned to the Domain of Deneb (it was incorporated
directly into the Imperial Navy;  a fleet stationed in the Ilelish
sector currently carries its battle honours).  However, when a courier
brought the news to Armand in 623, Arbellatra deferred recognition of
his independence on the grounds that as Regent (in the absence of an
Emperor), she did not have the authority to cede control of any
Imperial territory. 

Over the next decade, Arbellatra strengthened Imperial control
throughout the sector (including establishing the first x-boat links),
and re-based strong Imperial fleets all around the border of the Zone.
In 634, having finally accepted the title of Empress, she felt secure
enough to pay her first ceremonial visit as monarch to the Domain of
Deneb (to show the flag, overawe opponents, reward supporters, deter
the Zhodani, and visit her homeworld again).  The tremendous Imperial
fleet gathered to escort her made a stately progress around the
Domain, and finally entered orbit around Vincennes in 636.  Armand,
meanwhile, had contracted a debilitating and incurable disease that
left him almost helpless.  However, despite his weakness he confronted
Arbellatra during a private audience and challenged her to make good
on her word.  She simply smiled and replied "I have", then handed him
a portable datareader.  On it, he saw the text of his world's original
Treaty of Membership in the Imperium: like many such treaties, it did
indeed state that "the Empire of Vincennes shall enjoy independence
and autonomy within the Third Imperium, as defined in the Imperial
Constitution and as guaranteed by the Emperor."  Looking at her
timepiece, she added "You have always enjoyed independence within the
Imperium -- as should your neighbouring worlds.  Now, if you will
excuse me, I'm expecting a series of important despatches from a fleet
courier."  With that she left -- and Armand was soon confronted by the
news that overwhelming Imperial forces had jumped into every system in
the Vincennes Zone.

As they arrived in each system, the Imperial ships broadcast an
announcement that they were restoring order in the name of the Empress
-- and added that they "thanked the colonial navy of Vincennes for its
assistance in preserving the peace during the recent upheavals -- a
service that happily is no longer required."  In most cases the
Vincennien commanders took the hint and either jumped out straight
away, or surrendered their ships.  Only in Sarden/Deneb (1424) did the
local Vincennien fleet resist.  It was almost completely destroyed,
although at a high cost in Imperial lives and ships.  The survivors
were condemned for treason against the Imperium, although by the
Empress' intervention their sentence was commuted from death to exile.
The "Battle of Sarden" has since gone down in Vincennien popular
history as a glorious fight against impossible odds, fought for the
honour of the flag -- the truth was less romantic, involving certain
unwholesome activities by the local commander's staff that he was
afraid would come to light once Imperial control over the system was
re-established. 

With the Zone dissolved (although in fact the Empress never formally
admitted that it had ever existed -- and most Imperial histories of
the period omit any mention of it) Arbellatra quickly strengthened
Imperial control of the region.  Most of the Vincennes navy was handed
over to the local defence fleets of the surrounding worlds, filled out
by Imperial Navy reservists until the worlds could train enough native
crewmen to man the ships.  Armand, now a bedridden and broken invalid,
could only watch as Imperial inspectors dismantled his war machine,
demilitarised his ships, and forced the sale of his armaments industry
to their friends in the megacorps, who converted most of the
industrial plant to civilian applications.  He died shortly
thereafter.

The "polite occupation" lasted some 60 years.  Although Vincennes
nominally kept its privileges and status within the Imperium,
suspicious Imperial nobles and officials kept a close eye on every
activity of the government -- making it plain that any return to
military adventurism would not be tolerated.  Frequent "courtesy
visits" by units of the Imperial Navy and Marines reinforced the
message.  This period came to a gradual end as the growing tensions
between Solomani and Vilani factions in the Imperium reached crisis
point and redirected attentions corewards.  While this infighting led
to fears that Vilani resistance on Paven would be rekindled, these
were largely unfounded -- although in 695 the Imperial authorities did
allow the Vincennes Crown to strengthen its military garrisons on
Paven.  This is generally regarded as marking the point where the
strict demilitarisation of the Empire was relaxed.


The Vincennes economic miracle 696 - 1120

During the following centuries, relations between the Imperium and
Vincennes were normalised.  Having learned their lesson, the planet's
Emperors avoided any suggestion of interstellar adventurism, and
concentrated their efforts on Vincennes' industrial development.
These were good years for the world, as it advanced rapidly in
technology and wealth.  

In a deliberate homage to Arbellatra's Imperial Palace, in 710 the
royal family financed the construction of the city of Blish.  This
vast spherical arcology was suspended in the air by counter-gravity
generators and offered a home to 700,000 people (later modifications
would increase that number to a million, as well as giving the city
thrusters to allow it to move to and from orbit).  While Blish relied
heavily on imported technology, the government encouraged local
companies to invest in facilities to allow construction of similar
cities entirely from local resources.  The immense research and
development effort needed to construct the flying cities, as well as
the awe-inspiring manufacturing plants needed to produce the parts,
had the desired effect.  Vincennes leaped forward in technological
capacity and became the Domain's principal supplier of components for
large-scale construction projects -- from arcologies to space habitats
as well as CG platforms of all kinds.  The biotechnological and
pharmaceutical industries also prospered, as did the production of
vehicles and consumer goods.  

By deliberate policy, the Crown used every available means to
encourage local companies into these growth industries, rather than
rely on foreign investment.  The domination of Vincennes' shipbuilding
industry by the Imperial megacorporations, as a result of the Civil
War, was a cause of much resentment on the world:  and the government
did everything in its power to limit or even roll back this off-world
involvement.

Since space on the flying cities was naturally at a premium, they
tended to be used for high-value export industries and as living
quarters for the better-off section of the community, including the
nobility and the rapidly expanding middle class.  This led to a
growing social division between city-dwellers and arcology-dwellers.
The government had originally planned to move the entire population to
flying cities, but sheer logistics made this impractical.  Instead,
during this period the population and number of arcologies grew to the
extent that an almost-continuous band of settlement right around the
continent developed.  This megalopolis became known as "Leresif" (from
an old word for a coral reef).  However, the growing unpopularity of
Leresif as a place to live compared to the glamorous new cities led to
it becoming a sink for the unwanted, the failures and the losers of
society.  While this may be something of an exaggeration -- even
today, there are plenty of successful businesses and prosperous
families in Leresif -- the stereotype grew until it became a
self-fulfilling prophecy.  Anybody with the drive to do well in life
saw it as their primary goal to get onto a city, and failure to
"escape" from Leresif might destroy their self-confidence forever. 

An unforeseen benefit of the flying cities was the growth of the
tourist trade, as the Domain's wealthier inhabitants came to see these
technological marvels and participate in the gilded life of Vincennes'
bright young things.  While the early cities were functional in shape
and design, later ones became increasingly esoteric, adventurous and
striking in appearance -- in order both to attract visitors and to
instil local pride in their inhabitants (and of course to make a
reputation for the architects).  Even Paven began to benefit from the
tourist trade, as adventurous travellers discovered its ancient
historical palaces and cathedrals (some dating back to the Rule of Man
and the Long Night) and savoured its rich artistic treasures.  Some
even dared to experience the local Vilani peasant culture, with its
undertones of danger and rebellion (and quaint folkloric customs,
traditional music and distinctive French-Vilani cuisine).  If a few
unwary travellers were robbed of all their possessions, held for
ransom, or simply disappeared (and no, the rumours of ritual
cannibalism have never been proven), that simply added to the
excitement.

As a consequence of this economic boom, Vincennes developed a strong
trade surplus.  Demand for Vincennien products -- be they high-tech
manufactured items or consumer goods -- far outstripped supply; and
the megacorporations found themselves in the almost unimaginable
situation where their CrImps were actually less valuable than the
local Vincennien currency.  During the late 9th and early 10th
centuries, Emperor Albert II, Empress Elisabeth III, and Emperor Jean
exploited this situation to gradually buy out the controlling stakes
held by the megacorps in Vincennes' economy.  Instead, they encouraged
the setting-up of joint venture schemes, which gave the off-world
companies a foothold in Vincennes' economy but allowed the local
partners to call the shots.  The Vincennien Crown also offered serious
tax incentives for research and development, encouraging companies to
set up test facilities and laboratories on the planet or elsewhere in
the system.  The result of this was that Vincennes was recognised by
the IISS as having achieved TL 15 in 912, almost a century before the
Imperium officially reached that tech level.  The Second Survey
labelled the world as "incipient TL 16" and that was in turn made
official in 1087.  Vincennes saw a massive and sustained growth in
population during this period, far in excess of Imperial norms, and
mostly from economic migrants come to work in the world's thriving
industries.

In general, Vincennes played the role of loyal Imperial world during
this period, although its interpretation of the Imperium's best
interests often differed from that of the higher nobility.  The
exception was the notorious Perez scandal of 1025.  In 952, the
long-established and venerable Vincennien corporation BTV patented
Reve 3, a potent psychoactive compound.  Users reported full-sensation
hallucinations of remarkable power and clarity in which their
deepest-held desires were fulfilled.  Physical side effects were
minimal;  although the drug was addictive, this addiction was curable
using TL 15 medicine. The only downside was that a tiny minority of
users reported strange experiences in which they felt trapped, and
driven to perform bizarre actions against their will - almost as if
they were caught in someone else's fantasy.

Naturally, Reve 3 quickly became immensely popular on Vincennes, and
on other worlds in the sector which either permitted recreational drug
use or couldn't prevent it being imported.  The drug also came into
widespread medical use as a psychology tool. BTV's share value soared,
and many other corporations rushed to produce their own versions of
the compound (BTV's IP lawyers were kept busy that decade).  It
eventually emerged that the main ingredient of the drug was a natural
substance extracted from the brainstems of _ndiki_, a semi-aquatic
race of carnivore trappers found on the world of Perez/Deneb (1221)
(the ndiki were communal creatures which jointly built structures
similar to beaver dams in Perez's many watercourses to trap their
prey).  A race then ensued among the corporations to acquire breeding
populations of ndiki.  By 975 the species was effectively extinct in
the wild, as the entire population was rounded up into vast corporate
factory farms.

This quickly became a cause celebre among environmentalists in the
Domain, especially after it emerged that the process used to extract
the raw Reve 3 caused extreme pain to the animal concerned.
Demonstrations, boycotts and pickets outside the offices of BTV and
the companies selling similar ndiki-derived drugs became frequent.
However, the situation leaped into wider public awareness in 1002 with
the publication of a best-selling book claiming that the ndiki were
sophonts.  This was based on a study of journals and travellers' tales
from the initial settlement of Perez, describing the tool-using and
problem-solving abilities of the ndiki and the remarkable level of
cooperation they showed in their building and hunting activities.  Of
course, BTV strongly denied the claims and produced evidence
purporting to prove that ndiki were mere unintelligent animals.  In
1009 they even provided two sample creatures to the University of
Deneb for independent study, which appeared to prove the company's
point.  However, the controversy refused to go away:  the secrecy and
high security with which the corporations guarded their Perez
facilities fuelled numerous conspiracy theories.

In 1025, the scandal broke in full force.  In that year, an otherwise
unidentified group of people broke into BTV's compound and captured
several dozen ndiki as well as copies of BTV's corporate records
dating back 75 years.  These were handed over to the IISS base on
Northammon/Deneb (0921).  Tests quickly proved beyond any doubt that
the ndiki were indeed sentient beings.  Worse, BTV had known this all
along and deliberately concealed it -- the two ndiki handed over for
study in 1009 had been chosen because they were congenitally
subnormal.  The implications were shattering:  Imperial citizens had
been deliberately enslaving and torturing to death intelligent beings
in order to produce and sell an addictive drug!

As BTV's share value went into freefall and millions of ex-customers
launched legal suits against the company, the Imperial Ministry of
Justice set up a full scale investigation.  The legal ramifications
went deep into Vincennien society, because the company's board of
directors included many prominent nobles -- and even the royal family
was implicated.  Empress Colette IV managed to escape actual
prosecution herself, but abdicated the throne in disgrace in favour of
her young son.  Two of her cousins were among the Vincennes notables
to be tried and found guilty of conspiracy to commit acts of slavery
and genocide.  BTV itself was broken up and its remaining assets sold
off, while the megacorporations quietly disowned their subsidiaries on
Perez and threw them to the MoJ's wolves.  On Perez, the IISS set up a
programme to close down the farms, return the ndiki to their natural
environments, and assist their development.  The planet was
interdicted to prevent further exploitation of the native sophonts:
this Red Zone was lifted in 1063 but the ndiki remain a protected
species under Imperial law.

(Referees only:  the deep, dark secret...
In all the excitement, few people ever wondered what became of the
ndiki taken to Northammon Scout Base.  If they made a guess, they'd
probably assume they were returned to Perez.  Wrong.  They were
actually shipped out of the sector in absolute secrecy to an Imperial
Research Station in the Spinward Marches.  The tests showed that the
ndiki's remarkable intra-group cooperation was due to a low-level
telepathic link.  Furthermore, the intensely clear and accurate nature
of the hallucinations experienced by users of Reve 3 indicated a
psionic element -- and the rare "bad trips" when a user seemed to
experience someone else's fantasy may have been _exactly that_.  In
other words, Reve 3 was both a natural psi-enhancing drug, and perhaps
even a catalyst of previously-unrecognised telepathic abilities.  It
is therefore possible that the Imperium has continued to produce and
study Reve 3 in secret, despite the horrendous legal and moral
implications.)


In 1107, the Fifth Frontier War broke out.  Keen to prove his loyalty
(and win a massive government contract for Vincennes) Emperor Pierre
III offered to construct and equip an entire new subsector fleet for
the Imperial Navy at TL 16.  He pointed out the tremendous
technological superiority this would give the Imperium over its
Zhodani opponents.  However, Sector Duke Lagaashiga turned down the
offer.  The official reason was the need for compatibility between
Imperial forces and the difficulties of maintaining TL 16 equipment
with standard Navy facilities and technicians.  The real reason was
that the Duke feared the undue influence Vincennes would gain if the
local Imperial Navy fleet was entirely dependent for spares, refits,
and trained staff on a single world in his sector.  Pierre accepted
the decision, but still ordered the building of a TL 16 CruRon for his
planetary navy as a technology demonstration (and, effectively, a way
of saying to the Navy "nah nah nah, look what you're missing!").  

More practically, the war did see an expansion of Vincennes' industry
to produce not entire ships, but selected advanced-technology systems
that could be retrofitted into existing vessels.  For example,
Vincennes is currently the Domain's leading exporter of black globe
generators.  Immigration to Vincennes also reached a new peak during
this period, as individuals and companies relocated away from the
war-torn Spinward Marches.

As of today, Vincennes is a confident and expanding society.  Having
advanced by two tech levels in as many centuries, the people are now
eagerly looking forward to the day when they will be officially
recognised as having attained TL 17.  Vincennes' government is fond of
drawing parallels with Terra in the third millennium pre-Imperium, as
a comparable example of rapid technological and economic development.
The unanswered question is:  will the rest of the Imperium follow them
onwards into the future, or fall back into stagnation and decay?  And
if the Imperium does falter, could the Vincenniens then go on to
emulate their Terran forbears in another, and far more dramatic way?
Nobody says it aloud;  but in their hearts, you can tell that many
Vincenniens believe it.



(Next:  Astrographic and planetological data, or what happens when an
inhabited planet passes directly between two closely-orbiting
companion stars...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:28:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C5EC4B4.210CB8A4@sitraka.com>

Michael,

Michael Barry wrote:
> 
> Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays
> in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

Could you call the Premiere of Quebec sometime and explain that to him?

Unfortunately, as dumb as secession is, it is quite possible to 
paint it as politically advantageous to the province/world in 
question.

And, honestly, I dunno how really dumb it is. If California, Oregon &
Washington Sate all seceded from the US they'd probably do pretty 
well. A rather nebulously defined concept of patriotism and American
culture keeps it from ever happening though.

In it's corner of the Marches, Trin _is_ the Imperium. New York could
never leave the USA because it's hard to imagine anywhere much more
prototypically American. Even if NY (or NYC!) did leave, it could be
a case of America leaving all the useless bits behind itself. ;)

Such is Trin - Trin's culture defines Imperial culture for much
of the sector. Trin's inability to leave the Imperium is, in some
ways, tautological.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:59:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <050501c1ada5$cb0c13e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

dam spell checker...

once it changed the word inconvenience to incontinence, so my line read...
sorry for the incontinence...

on an email about a system outage to the entire company

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml-digest@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)


> >From: Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> >
> >> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
> >
> >damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...
>
> I was visualizing you wrapping the film itself around your body, kind of
> like a mummy.
>
> --Glenn
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:28:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:28:01 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFAEPNCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and early 80's
I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on my holidays
to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).

I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl
> Sent: 03 February 2002 22:23
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> >
>
> > What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> > people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> > level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> > place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?
>
> Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
> `naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.
>
> > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
>
> Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> one is not properly equipped.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:52:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:52:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
Message-ID: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>

Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
sections.

Thanks in advance.

    - Mark C.

P.S. I was under the impression that they were going to end up in
the "Best of..." section on the TML website, but they're not there.
Also, for some bizarre reason, I can't find them in the archive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:46:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:46:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012844779.6838.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
> shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
> Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.

Unfortunately, due to surface area constraints, there's an upper limit on meson
screens.  This is useful for hunting deep meson sites (they can't simply ignore
you) but the equivalent of a heavy spinal mount will penetrate without
difficulty.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:40:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] (EBay) JTAS 2-24 & Adv. 9
Message-ID: <B884077A.1A0A%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

For those who want the original printings...

Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Issues 2-24 in individual auctions
starting at $1.00NR.

Most of the magazines are in Excellent of Near Mint condition.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&us
erid=s_schoon@pacbell.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=0

Thanks for looking,
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:21:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:21:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] New/Old to the List
Message-ID: <B8840305.1A01%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Hi All,

I used to be a list regular some time back (speaking of which, does the TWG
list still exist?), but set it aside when it looked as if T5 might be
"vaporware."

However, since then I've re-embraced my CT material, and have fitfully begun
to tinker again.


Schon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:50:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:50:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204123613.01d644c8@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:22, Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>However, when putting together a vehicle, such as an automobile or even a 
>combat vehicle, there is no need for multi-cubic meter volume for 
>individual workstations.  At most, your average human is going to need 
>0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with.

Err, no.  0.35 cubic meters gives a working space considerably smaller than 
a telephone booth.  For example, as a standing workstation that will 
accommodate someone 6' tall (1.85m) works out to about 17" (0.43m) 
square.  This is a tight fit, and barely gives enough room to operate controls.

If you're unhappy with FF&S control volumes, I would suggest that halving 
them for civilian vehicles might be reasonable.  Measure your automobile's 
"control station" - remember to include the volume of the control 
mechanisms (not only the space occupied by the dashboard, steering wheel, 
and pedals, but also hydraulic steering and brake equipment that is 
elsewhere in the car) as well as your potential legroom (seat all the way 
back), headroom and side space.  I suspect that you'll come up with a 
number that's well over a cubic meter.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:19:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFAEPNCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.
 co.uk>
References: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204131734.00b8d8b0@mail.charter.net>

Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped you from 
legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of town unarmed?

Otherwise, your point is excellent.

At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
>Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and early 80's
>I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
>when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
>wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on my holidays
>to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
>situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
>
>I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
>carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl
> > Sent: 03 February 2002 22:23
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> > > people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> > > level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> > > place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?
> >
> > Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
> > `naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.
> >
> > > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> >
> > Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> > needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> > one is not properly equipped.
>
>Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>
>IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
>vi-
>         And life is harsh and rarely fair.
>
>Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
>the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.

------------------------------------------
"The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:58:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen (longish)
Message-ID: <20020204185831.56845.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> don't propose that T5 ought to keep CharGen from CT.
> No basic CharGen
> and advanced CharGen. I proposed what I did as the
> STARTING point. That
> aspect of Traveller, as it has existed, that should
> be kept. It may be

My misunderstanding.  So what you are getting at is
the basic concepts for a CharGen system?  Or more
specifically, a Traveller(generic) CharGen system?

I would say that the ability to use an advanced or
basic is something that should also be present, but
that it should be more seamless between the two.

The reason I say that is because of my concept of
Traveller (or any RPG).  I see it as a collection of
systems.  These systems are of two types, construction
and interaction.  

Construction systems for Traveller fall into three
broad categories, People, Items, and Worlds.  In each
of these main categories, we have a broad range of
details to potentially work out.  We have basic
(required) characteristics to which we add detail up
to the depth that seems necessary to us.

As evidenced recently, different people(players or
refs) have different ideas of what is "necessary" to
them.  There are those who like a lot of detail from
their Characters, but don't need anything more than a
J and M number from a starship.  Many people are
satisfied with the UWP, while personally, I enjoy lots
of details about a world.  As evidenced by the QSDS,
SSDS, FFS1&2, LBB3, etc discussion, it is important to
be able to construct at a variety of levels of
complexity.  I don't think CharGen should be any
different, but I also agree with you that it is
necessary to keep the systems interchangeable.  (More
later)

The other category of systems (for completeness) are
the Interaction systems.  This would include Combat
(Personnel and Ship), Travel, and Trade/Commerce as
well as others that define how Constructions relate to
one another in various aspects.



So, back to your starting point.  The ideal (T5 we
hope) CharGen system for Traveller will allow for the
use of points or random die rolls in a variety of
detail levels.

What I imagine as far as detail would be "tack-ons" to
the basic necessary details.  For example, TNE used
the contact rules to tack some detail on to the basic
characters.  Some people liked it, others didn't.

Am I close to what you are taling about? :)

If so, I would suggest that the next step is to define
the detail levels that could be handled by CharGen.

> Would it be that easy to modify CT basic CharGen
> into a random or
> deliberate or combination activity? You mention a

I think it would, but that defeats the purpose of your
original post. :)

> referee, but referees
> always modify and tweak that isn't quite the same as
> rules someone on

Maybe I wasn't clear.  I meant that a point system
should be able to handle this.  Now that I see what
you are talking about, it doesn't matter much, but the
generation system in CT does allow for a certain
randomness.

> temporary assignment in a hole on the Antarctican
> continent without a
> phone or a companion could use to generate 1001
> player characters. With
> a random base system he could do that in 10ms after
> writing a computer
> program to generate them. Also, he could do it in 10
> minutes (per
> character) with a program like those designed to
> create GURPS Traveller
> characters. 

I can relate to this very well.  I am a designer when
it comes to Traveller.  Although I am looking at
getting involved in a PBeM or two, my access to
actually playing the game in a group is limited to
eMail.  So what you are suggesting is VERY attractive
to me.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:26:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:26:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: generalturokan@juno.com
>
>Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller forgot
>to include..

I don't think they're impressive.  7 is average, and I think I'm only as
strong and dextrous as the average guy.  I think my endurance is high,
because I'm in better than average cardio shape.  For example, I can walk
for many hours at high altitude with a heavy pack without becoming
exhausted.  Intelligence, education, and social status all tend to (but
don't necessarily) increase with age in the USA, and social status is tied
in part to education in this society.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:47:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <memo.548809@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203185336.00a98980@mail.peak.org>
Greetings dear hearts.

As another resident in a "you may not carry the wherewithal to protect 
yourself" jurisdiction, I must confess that even if I was permitted to 
carry a handgun or a decent knife, I probably would not. BUT I WOULD LIKE 
TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MY OWN MIND UP! (Apologies for the yell! I'm 
frustrated.)

I walk about half a mile from work (a college) to the train station down 
an isolated and unlit track. I hardly ever see anyone, let alone feel 
threatened by them... but the principal has expressed concern, and the 
site security staff have offered to walk with me. If I did feel unsafe I 
would like to have the option to take my nice big kukri along. As the law 
stands, I don't have that choice. Grrr.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:52:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] Dragging back OT : Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204131734.00b8d8b0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEAACLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Hmm, very good point (threat level vs. Law level.

ISTR that the definition of Law Level was linked to the "chance/likelihood"
of official intervention.  Or am I babbling again?

Another sudden point, should extremely low law levels (poss. modified by gov
type) give a chance of automatic skills in weapons.

A RL for Ex: A friend of mine in Zimbabwe grew up on a farm in Bandit
country, approx 6 hrs away from police/army response.  Due to the high
threat of attack by armed troops he learnt to handle firearms at a _very_
early age.  (Please note all ages are approx, I'm working on 18 yr old
memories here)
i.e. Loading magazines was his very first memory (about 2-3yrs); by the age
of 5 he could fire a light pistol (and was expected to if they were
attacked).  At 8 he got rifle training every Saturday; and was proficient
with a FN rifle by the age of 10ish.

Just some On Topic musings right now.

(and no I'm not interested in discussing the RL events of this time period
in my life, anyone else's or the political/history thereof, sorry)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> Sent: 04 February 2002 18:19
>
> Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped
> you from
> legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of
> town unarmed?
>
> Otherwise, your point is excellent.
>
> At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
> >Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and
> early 80's
> >I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
> >when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
> >wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on
> my holidays
> >to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
> >situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
> >
> >I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
> >carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5EE72E.C6EDCEBE@ameritech.net>




> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:58:12 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> Gentlemen please, you're misunderstanding me!

<snip>

> NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING!!!
> GEESH, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY IT?

I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
however based upon your initial response to the original question,

> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:31:47 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Son of MT Ship Design question
>
> Ken,
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:35:36 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>>
>>    Hmm,
>>    I think maybe I can be a _little_ clearer this time around :)
>>    The ship is a TL 15,100ton Yacht with M2, J2, a rugged 48 AF, a 
>> triple  missle turret, and the previously mentioned 112,697.43 CP.
>>    I was contemplating a model 3/fib computer. Its CP Multiplier 
>> (which I  think of as more of a CP _Divider_) of 25 would reduce the
ship's 
>> total to  4507.8972 CP.
>>     I was _palnning_ on a large holodisplay and 2 HUD holodisplays 
>> for the  bridge; which'd eat up 1900 CP; leaving 2607.8972 CP to
wrestle 
>> under control  panels; requiring 1739 hololinked panels. 
>>    The model 3/fib has a Maximum CP Input of 20,000. If the ship's 
>> original,  unreduced CP total needs to be under this number, then I
can't use 
>> the model  3/fib, and must use at _least_ the model 6.
>
> What I see is you're trying to cheat the system. The rules state - 
>
> 1."If a computer is desired, select one from the list below. A computer
> multiplies the number of CP (control points) into it by the CP multiple
> shown. It reduces the number of control panel units needed to control the
> craft."
>
> 2."Select and install enough control panel units and control panel
> add-ons so that the total CPs from the control units multiplied by the
> computer's CP multiplier (if a computer is installed) equals or exceeds
> the number of CPs required to control the craft."
>
> 1.The computer multiplies, NOT the other way around.
>
> Pick your CPU based on need, then the multiplier becomes your friend in
> reducing the required control points.
>
> 2.You double check your work by the second quote above.
>
> Turokan

The issue in question is at what point the maximum input value is
applied. Before the CP multiplier is used or after. You seemed to be
arguing that the multiplier is used before. I am of the considered
opinion that it is applied after. If this was not your original point I
am at a loss as to what your objection to Ken's method in fact is.

> I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED COST, OR ANYTHING WITH TL15!!!

Not directly no. But CPs are Cost*Tech Level/100000. So in discussing
CPs you are implicitly mentioning both.

Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And apologies
in advance if the tone of this message comes across as a bit snarky only
you are yelling and everything.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:47:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>
>I'm going to chime in on this debate.  I believe the solution to this
>problem is that the Imperium imposes certain minimum legal standards on all
>member worlds.  These standards are intended to be relatively
>non-intrusive, and cover only the situations absolutely necessary for
>Imperial membership.  Worlds are, of course, free to enact local laws in
>addition to or more restrictive than Imperial law, but cannot bypass or
>circumvent Imperial law.

I don't this approach is workable, nor is it as much fun for role-playing,
but I leave it to those who are interested to research the archives for my
position on this recurring subject.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:01:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:01:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trin's Rebellion
In-Reply-To: <200202040717.XAA27335@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020204143543.00a1eec0@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   Rather than talk about things in a nebulous manner, I thought "let's 
break this down into specifics".

I don't know the specifics of Trin, so I intend to ask people what the 
specifics are.  To wit: how is Trin set up?  How many Gas Giants does it 
have?  How about its industries?  Where does it get its space 
resources?  In short, identify all of the strategic and tactical points 
that Trin must defend.

The next thing I'd like to bring forth in this thread's discussion is: What 
are the tactics best employed by the attacker and the best tactics employed 
by the defender.

Phase I of the tactics used by the Imperium would likely be to emplace an 
embargo of Trin.  Ships that can be shown to be violating system navigation 
rules (designed to keep tabs on where the ships have been etc), will be 
investigated.  A local navy would then have to stage from some location in 
order to attack Trin.  Chances are Trin knows of this nearby location and 
may decide to deal with removal of such bases.

Phase II would be the actual attack on Trin's major strategic and/or 
tactical assets.  Industries need raw resources.  Assuming that Trin has 
asteroid belts that have not been mined out of existance, these raw 
resources become strategic vulnerabilities.  Gas Giants also become 
strategic in nature.

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that we use the GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules on jump emergence propogating Electromagnetic waves that can be 
picked up by sensitive sensors.  Lets further assume that we are using HIGH 
GUARD's vulnerability towards hydrogen fuel being required to power the 
powerplants.

What can the Impies do to the Trinites?

Let us assume that Trin is like our solar System.  Let us further assume 
that Neptune, Saturn, and Jupiter are valid refueling points.  Let us 
further assume that we are using the asteroid belt as a resource for our 
earth based industries.  This means we have the following points to defend:

3 refueling points, 1 habitation point, 1 resource point that is spread out 
over the entire orbital radius.

Ok, Earth is purely defensive right now (for the sake of argument) and has 
some highly effective ships.  Heavily armored due to the fact they can use 
smaller ships without fuel tankage volume - moderately armed due to smaller 
volumes.  Capital weapon ships are much more dangerous and much nastier 
than their jump ship counter-parts.

What are Earth's/Trin's problems at this point?

If you guard the gas giants as singular points, you are doing well.  Problems:

1) what if the Imperials are using Tanker ships?
2) how are you guarding the gas Giants?  If you have three fleets on each 
of the gas giants, you have effectively allowed the Impies to negate your 
numerical advantage.  In other words, to *equal* your forces at the 
engagement zone, the Imperial only needs 1/3rd your overall force size 
(actually, it is worse because Earth/Trin needs to guard its home world and 
its raw resources)
3) what if the Impies launch a diversionary attack at another location, and 
then launches an all out attack at *one* of the gas giants?

So you give up the fact that you can't control one or more Gas 
Giants.  Maybe you set up automated Defenses at one Gas Giant and indicate 
that the Enemy will have to clear those defenses without any loss on your 
part.  So you concentrate your defenses on two gas giants instead of 
three.  Problems are similar to the ones mentioned above.

So - suppose instead, the Impies go right for the throat?  With the 
distances between the gas Giants and the habitable planet - what ever 
forces the Defenders allocate to the defense of those assets, might just as 
well not exist when the Impies come calling on the home world or the raw 
resources locations.  Again, the attackers can concentrate their offensive 
force while the defenders can not.  But the problems get worse here.  An 
attack on the home world demonstrates that the citizens are not safe from 
hit and run  raids.  They lose ship tonnage in the war that they themselves 
have to make good on.  Any ships lost by the Impies on the other hand, get 
absorbed by the other "planets".  They have unfettered access to resources 
while the Trinites don't.

The Trinites cannot afford to leave their home world undefended, nor can it 
afford to leave forces guarding the fuel points because that leads to 
defeat in detail.

Have I overlooked anything from the offensive tactics?

                      Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:24:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020205082411.A16096@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> I'm doing exactly that.  I looked at MySQL  but  it  doesn't  yet
> have a procedural language (so no triggers or stored procedures).

Yeah, I considered a couple of other DBMs for better flexibility, but
MySQL won because I've already got it installed with the appropriate
modules for PHP :) If I want to transfer it to another system, it
won't be terribly difficult.

I have now imported the 'classic' Galactic sector/subsector files into
SQL; 10,155 systems so far.  There must be lots more data out there,
since that includes only 2270 in the Imperium.  I don't know where I'm
going to get the other 8000+ Imperial systems :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:52:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:52:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin's Rebellion
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020204143543.00a1eec0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012859564.7515.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:

> I don't know the specifics of Trin, so I intend to ask people what the 
> specifics are.  To wit: how is Trin set up?  How many Gas Giants does it 
> have?  How about its industries?  Where does it get its space 
> resources?  In short, identify all of the strategic and tactical points 
> that Trin must defend.

Points to defend: per Behind the Claw, we have Trin (22B people), the inner
world Scorcher (31M people), and LSPs colony in the outsystem (12k people). 
Trin may not care about LSP.  Tactically speaking, the star's 100D limit is at
0.5 AU (M0 primary) while Trin is at around 0.25 AU, which severely limits the
ability to perform hit and run attacks, though a major attack on Scorcher could
hit the world before reinforcements from Trin could get there.  OTOH, 6G SDBs
can get from Trin to Scorcher (assuming 0.1 AU) in about 18 hours, while a 6G
fleet making a running jump in would take 13 hours to arrive if they wished to
decelerate; this probably isn't long enough to take out fixed defenses at
Scorcher.  If the Imperium wanted to bomb Scorcher they probably can, though
the entire colony is underground; the 3I may not find it useful to kill 12
million civilians, and it would be hard to take out militarily valuable targets
without cracking the habitats open.

There's been a long discussion of fleet tactics on defense.  Most likely Trin
will ignore defense of the gas giant, other than possibly placing some sniper
units in the atmosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:40:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:40:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Well I been doing some thinking about siting an Arsenal, sort of a
proto-depot, one capable of growing into a full fledged depot in time.

Considerations

What are the requirements of a Depot, we'll assume that an arsenal has to
fulfill them as well.

As I see it they would include:

existence of an extant Navy base, they  know the system and there is some
infrastructure to develop.

a gas giant in system

near an extant X-boat line tie into existing lines of communications

being off main trade and travel lines:  a lot of though traffic is not
encouraged

being near the center of the Sector,  'get there fastest with the mostest,
no matter where/

Being near being at least two jumps away form any frontier, having your
depot occupied is not one of those generic good things.

Having several ways out.  the way in from the front line areas should
coverable by the fleet without stretching it too much

Being near higher population worlds, useful for the warm bodies you need

Being currently small enough to be able to be removed from the general
economy without too much adverse effect,  Depot worlds  being in essence
closed of, besides a smaller value makes it easier for the IN to buy out the
natives

not being located at a choke point,  systems being cut off must be
negligible or accessible by other means

Recall that IN line standards are J4 and Colonial fleets are say J3

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:40:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Special consideration within the spinward marches
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Points

Cronor, Querion, Darrien, Five Sisters, Sword Worlds, and District 268 are
perhaps not the ideal places to locate a depot definitely counting as on the
front line.

figure that Jewell and Vilis are not good bets either.

figure that must of your broken ships will be found in Jewell, Regina,
Villas, Lunion, and Lanth in the event of a war.

In order of bad idea to let 'em conquer it, you have the Zhodane, the Sword
Worlds, the Vagyr and the Aslan. the last two probably not being up to doing
more the raiding.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:57:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:57:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B883EB22.233F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FC8B7.2779.550197@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 7:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just judging from this list, it would appear that how someone feels about
> being armed will probably be more related to culture than law level.  There will
> be some worlds that have high law level where people will arm themselves
> regardless of the law (PNG) and some where the idea is unthinkable.  This could
> be also true of low law level worlds.  In my own state of Oregon it's quite
> legal to go about armed (as long as it is concealed, we just don't want to see
> it) but attitudes vary between large cities and rural areas.  And while one can
> carry a concealed handgun, carrying a concealed knife (except small blades) is
> suspect. In other countries, having a large 'chopper' on one's belt is
> absolutely normal. In others, toting an AK-47 is typical behavior.

My father (who lives on a 'lifestyle block' of 10 acres out in the country) 
habitually wears a belt knife around home. When going to a livestick aution 
once he forgot to remove it and only realised when he got home, as no one 
thought it worthy of comment. Another time he went into town wearing it and 
found out when he walked into a bank, after which he got to have a talk with 
the police about 'being more careful' next time.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:10:03 +1300
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FCB9B.12579.604DBE@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 12:52, markc@peak.org wrote:

> Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
> Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
> (either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
> enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
> the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
> sections.
> 
> Thanks in advance.

Try <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rboleyn/downloads/index.html>, I've just 
put up a copy.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:15:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Regina, Armamis, Lanth, Rhylanar possible sites
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEJLEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Regina sub Sector

Inthe

0810  B575776 2 Agricultural

Advantages

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant.

If xboat link at Tureded it built within two jumps of two sub sector
capitals
Ag world, supporting if cut off
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region
One jump away from Rylanor, a TL 15 world useful source of expertise
On spur of Spinward Main

Disadvantages

TL 9 and Star Port B
________________

Lanth sub Sector

Ivendo

0709 B324659 A

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant.
TL B
Scout Navy Base Colocated
Off spur of Spinward Main
Near center of action

(editoral comment, Why there is no Xboat links between D'Ganzio and Ianic or
why the Xboat link between Icentina and Reston take two extra jumps through
Garrinski and Fosey when a direct link is possible is beyond me)

Disadvantages

Isolated, no High Tech worlds within easy range, Heroni the nearest
Industrial world is TL 8
Easily choked off at D'Granzio
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region
Poor Ag potential, either at hand or near by

Icetina

0808 b524519 7
Low tech plus all the advanatages and disadvantages of Ivendo

(Note:  D'Ganzio is too near the front line for consideration)

Aramis Sub Sector

Paya

0109 A655241 9

Naval Base, Gas Giant
Type A Spaceport
Off spur of Spinward Main
both locally arable and near to Ag worlds
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region

Disadvantages
Rethe the nearest High Pop world is Low tech and poor
Inaccessible, sub sector capitols three or more jumps away
not on a x boat line, though it could be relocated

Rhylanor Sub sector

Risek
0307 A3235579 A

Advantages

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant
Type A spaceport
Off spur of Spinward Main
Good access to Deneb Sector

Disadvantage
removed from front zones
cuts off Zivije
long lines of communication with sub sector capitals

____________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:31:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:31:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:

> In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
> building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
> Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
> would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
> the standard universe.
> 
> I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
> if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
> could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
> the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
> an import utility from Galactic data files.


I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an 
Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would 
like...what does MySQL import?

SQL is the query languange, not the data format...unless you want the 
data in endless rows of

'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'

(which I can do if you want, though...)

The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)

SQL> desc sectors
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
-------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         VARCHAR2(20)
  WORLDNAME                                          VARCHAR2(14)
  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
  UWP                                                CHAR(12)
  BASES                                              CHAR(1)
  CODES                                              CHAR(17)
  ZONE                                               CHAR(3)
  POPMULT                                            FLOAT(126)
  BASENUM                                            FLOAT(126)
  GASGIANT                                           FLOAT(126)
  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
  STELLARDATA                                        CHAR(20)

I've also broken out the sector demographic data and broke down the UWP's

SQL> desc sectdemos
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
----------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
  POPULATION                                         NUMBER(18)
  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)

SQL> desc sectoruwp
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
----------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
  HEXNO                                              CHAR(4)
  STARPORT                                           VARCHAR2(1)
  SIZENO                                             VARCHAR2(1)
  ATM                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  HYD                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  POP                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  GOV                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  LAW                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  TL                                                 VARCHAR2(2)


The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?

If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:57:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:57:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #120
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112536.01d47e18@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FC8B7.5857.5501A1@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 11:29, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Yeah; I'd be worried about how to ship them at reasonable cost.  Cases of 
> beer are heavy, and I doubt I could take them with me on the airplane.

The worst of it is that most of the weight's in the beer itself, so lighter 
storage materials don't really help. Even using 1.5 Litre Coke bottles (which 
actually make really good homebrew bottle, IME) still leaves you with 70 kg of 
beer.
 
> >I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets of beer
> >from here to the US would be. :)
> 
> Yes.  I'm thinking that Cornelius kegs would be a good way of handling 
> it.  Unfortunately, they're expensive and I don't have the kegs or tap system.

Me neither. As I put down maybe one brew a year I haven't bothered to get more 
than the basics.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:38:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:38:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Lunion, Glisten, Mora, Trin's Veil
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Lunion

None

Mora sub sector

Mercury 
0204 B658663 8

Advantages

Co located Navy and Scout base
Gas giant
Two jumps from Mora and Lunion
Ag world

Disadvantages

Low Tech world
Disadvantages
few routes out
not on x boat route

Glisten

Egypt

0107 BA6567 7

Advantages

Navy base, on x boat route, gas giant
good access to Glisten
three hi pop (9) worlds within two jumps
Near TL F Glisten
could serve any expansion toward the Great Rift and Districts 268
Near Ag world


Disadvantages
low TL
District 268's status is uncertain
poor access to Zhodane front





Mora
Moran

0504 C367300 8

Advantages
One jump from Mora, a TL 15 Pop A world
Gas giant

Disadvantages
Low tech, 
not on x boat route
removed form front line areas by long route
 
Trin's Veil

None





________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:41:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:41:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <B8845C0C.2346D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/4/02 9:52 AM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:

> Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
> Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
> (either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
> enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
> the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
> sections.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> - Mark C.

 Mark,

Check the archives at http://tml.travellercentral.com.  Everything should be
there. You may have to search a bit.


Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:45:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <20020204.154545.-78113.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Glenn

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:26:57 -0800 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> >From: generalturokan@juno.com
> >
> >Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller 
> forgot to include..
> 
> I don't think they're impressive.  7 is average, and I think I'm 
> only as strong and dextrous as the average guy. 

True, but  I was looking at the physical stats with your age, compared to
Traveller characters. Impressive by 1. my stats - 101, and 2. typical
pc's of similar age. The rules in MT alow physical improvements true, but
you typically add them in college with little mention in service, or
should I say little improvement unless you roll mostly on the Personal
Development Table at the cost of missing a skill, or education.

TUROKAN


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:01:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020204.160155.-78113.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

David

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600 David Shayne
<daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
> I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
> however based upon your initial response to the original question,
> 
> Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And 
> apologies in advance if the tone of this message comes across
> as a bit snarky only you are yelling and everything.
> 
> David Shayne

I'm sorry for yelling. Be as SNARKY as you like :~). 
My first post was not detailed enough, though my later posts were, and
everyone knows how things get blown apart if a misstatement is made. Like
my cannon vs canon blunder.

Enjoy,

Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:31:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202041742.g14HgYN19903@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020204162952.00a2e030@mailhost.efn.org>

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:28:20 -0500, Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> 
wrote:

>And, honestly, I dunno how really dumb it is. If California, Oregon &
>Washington State all seceded from the US they'd probably do pretty
>well. A rather nebulously defined concept of patriotism and American
>culture keeps it from ever happening though.

There's also the fact that if Oregon and Washington were to secede, it 
would be to get *away* from California.  (Speaking of regional culture and 
politics... :)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:50:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:50:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup  [long]
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OE41re6w8fwqkPqJ3Uh0000aafd@hotmail.com>

Guys, this is my take on the Rebellion, all the way to the Collapse.  There
are two versions, one covers an era where Strephon lives, and the other
where, well, he doesn't.  Special thanks to Larsen Whipsnade, Bruce Johnson,
and Rupert Boleyn.  Maybe someone on the list can come up with a snappy name
for the thread, like Wounded Colossus or something.  I'll start with the
line that has Strephon survive.

 132-1116 Sees the assassination attempt by Dulinor.  After the Archduke has
left, Ilelish Imperial Guard units barricade themselves in the palace.
Lucan, seizing his opportunity, murders Varian.  Windhook flees off world.
Chaos spreads as Household Calvary and Artillery units begin deployment
around the palace.  Jump-6 couriers depart for the Spinward Marches, Vland,
Antares, and Terra.  Shortly thereafter, travel is suspended to and from
Capital.

 133-1116 Tranian, Archduke of Gateway, is summoned to the Imperial Command
Reservation.  The ICR is an extensive underground facility located beneath
the floating palace.  Most of the complex is used to store Household Calvary
and Artillery vehicles, but a secret partition holds the cloning banks.
Upon his arrival, Tranian is briefed by Strephon's Moot liaison, Baron Mei
Jin.  Moot liaison had been a dead office for centuries, and by 1116 had
devolved to merely another title on a planet full of them.  However, Mei was
vested with near unlimited clearance, allowing him access to a special
Imperial Warrant stored in the ICR, to be used only in circumstances of
Premature Succession, the euphemism for public clone deaths.  Faced with a
legitimate Imperial Warrant, a taped holovid of Strephon explaining the
existence of the clones and expecting loyalty from his true nobles, and
extra emperors, Mei was able to convince Tranian that the real emperor
remained alive and well.  Securing the Archduke's cooperation, one of the
clones is removed from stasis.

 134-1116 The throne room is stormed by Imperial Guards, where the body of
Strephon is secreted away during the fighting by Sylean Rangers under strict
orders from Tranian.  Engagements continue in other parts of the palace, but
loyalist forces have the situation pretty much under control.  Meanwhile the
living clone is surgically altered with a wound consistent with that
suffered by the first clone, severe but survivable.

 135-1116 The palace is secured, and order has been restored on the planet.
Travel is resumed to and from Capital.  Strephon appears on the media
outlets, proclaiming Dulinor a traitor.  Jump-6 couriers are dispatched once
again.  Lucan is held under suspicion of murder, pending further
investigation.

Strephon learns about "his" assassination on 181-1116.  Stunned by the news,
his advisors plot a course for Usdiki.  However, by 188-1116 Strephon has
regained composure and orders the ship to Capital, arriving by 235-1116.
Once back on scene, he begins the marshalling of fleet resources.  Core,
Forenast, Diaspora, and Massila sector fleets are ordered to the trailing
subsectors of Zarushagar.  Strephon, overruling his advisors, travels at the
head of Core Fleet.  With Lucan arrested for murder and Tranian set to
return to his territory, Margaret is summoned to Capital.  As Strephon's
fleet proceeds towards Ilelish, mobilization orders for 8 fleets from Vland,
Lishun, and Antares arrive.  Brzk is quick to respond, but Ishuggi
vacillates, with the consequence that the three detachments arrive at
Depot/Zarushagar, the Imperial rendezvous point, at the same time, near the
end of 1117.

 Dulinor, arriving at his residence on 244-1116, has long prepared for this
day.  Ilelish fleet, as well as several fleets from Gushemege, Zarushagar,
and Dagudashaag declare for the rebel Archduke.  Dulinor has already placed
his men in all the critical positions in Ilelish sector, and had planned to
consolidate his holdings in rimward Gushmege, before setting out against
whoever it was that held Capital.  When, late in 1116, he learned of
Strephon's survival, everything changed.  He had been counting on chaos and
infighting, not a strong and unified response.  The campaign to take Capital
was placed on hold, his fleets instead settling into defensive positions.
It was hoped that perhaps the capture of Ilelish could be made so costly
that the Emperor would be willing to come to favorable terms.

 On the Solomani Rim, the news of the Emperor's death was received with
glee.  Rioting broke out on Terra and across the Rim.  The news reaches Home
on 001-1117, setting into motion the planned invasion of the Imperium.  As
news continued to filter in, the Solomani command decided to continue
despite Strephon's survival.  There were some that feared an external threat
might take precedence over the domestic dispute, but the plan continued
nonetheless.  By late 1117, Solomani fleets had struck into the Solomani
Rim, Old Expanses, and Daibei.  The fighting continues along the lines, with
mixed results.  The Solomani have the most success in the Old Expanses,
where incompetence and even treason among the sector nobility offset the
Imperial fleet strength.  By mid 1118, the 4 rimward subsectors have
completely surrendered.  Constantly receiving conflicting orders, the Old
Expanses fleet finds itself fighting individually rather than as a
collective unit.

 Norris, learning of Strephon's assassination on 328-1116, takes the rank of
Archduke the next day.  When, on 331-1116, it becomes known that Strephon
has survived, Norris sends a delegation to Capital explaining his action.
Meanwhile, the Zhodani react to Norris' elevation with dismay.  It is
thought that creating a clearer chain of command among the local nobility
increases the threat they present.  And, the Joes still recall Norris'
performance during the Fifth Frontier War.  Rather than suffer this threat,
the Zhodani prepare to embark upon another Frontier War, in the hopes of
catching the Imperium off balance.  However, the Consulate Navy had still
not fully recovered from the last war.  So, rather than begin with an attack
on the Imperium itself, the Zhodani helped the Sword Worlds begin a campaign
to recover the Border Worlds, as well as an attack on the Darrians.  By mid
1118, Consulate backed Sword Worlds forces managed to overrun the Border
Worlds, and had made slow inroads on the Darrians.  When Imperial forces
finally stirred themselves to reestablish the Border Worlds, Zhodani and
Vargr ships struck the border.



Remeber, this is just a sort of rough draft.  The dates especially I could
use a little help with.  More to come.

Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:18:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <4jcu5u0isfjgm5q9me86acn3r475rt0e1s@4ax.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:31:37 -0800 (PST), "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org>
wrote:

>Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
>Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
>(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
>enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
>the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
>sections.

I have them all, and they will appear in the next update of Freelance
Traveller (which will hopefully be this weekend, but may be delayed if the
Department continues to exercise its right to my undivided attention during
my workday).

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:18:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] GenCon 2002 UP!
Message-ID: <B88472D2.1A96%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Hi All,

The new GenCon Pre-Registration AND Housing is up!

http://www.wizards.com/gencon/2002/main.asp?x=2002/preregistration

I can personally attest to this as I've just finished both processes
successfully.

Enjoy (I know I will),
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:26:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:26:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204172549.00b20e40@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Bruce!

Do you happen to have an XML export format available?  :-)

Thanks!

Charles McKnight

At 04:31 PM 2/4/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Timothy Little wrote:
>
>>In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
>>building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
>>Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
>>would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
>>the standard universe.
>>I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
>>if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
>>could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
>>the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
>>an import utility from Galactic data files.
>
>
>I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an 
>Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would 
>like...what does MySQL import?
>
>SQL is the query languange, not the data format...unless you want the data 
>in endless rows of
>
>'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
>
>(which I can do if you want, though...)
>
>The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
>This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)
>
>SQL> desc sectors
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- -------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         VARCHAR2(20)
>  WORLDNAME                                          VARCHAR2(14)
>  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
>  UWP                                                CHAR(12)
>  BASES                                              CHAR(1)
>  CODES                                              CHAR(17)
>  ZONE                                               CHAR(3)
>  POPMULT                                            FLOAT(126)
>  BASENUM                                            FLOAT(126)
>  GASGIANT                                           FLOAT(126)
>  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
>  STELLARDATA                                        CHAR(20)
>
>I've also broken out the sector demographic data and broke down the UWP's
>
>SQL> desc sectdemos
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
> ----------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
>  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
>  POPULATION                                         NUMBER(18)
>  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
>
>SQL> desc sectoruwp
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
> ----------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
>  HEXNO                                              CHAR(4)
>  STARPORT                                           VARCHAR2(1)
>  SIZENO                                             VARCHAR2(1)
>  ATM                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  HYD                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  POP                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  GOV                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  LAW                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  TL                                                 VARCHAR2(2)
>
>
>The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
>do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?
>
>If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
>supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:03:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050255090.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Timothy Little writes:
>Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>>Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population is 22 billion,
>>not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP is TCr 462, not TCr 150.
>
>I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop multiplier of 1 for
>Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that when I get it into the database.

According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ Trin had a pop multiplier of 1 in
1110. According to _Regency sourcebook_ it had still had it in 1117. So
unless you believe that Trin has somehow gained no less than 7 billion
inhabitants in three years (pop one can be anything up to 14 billion), the
figure in _BtC_ is yet another of its numerous errors.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:59:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:59:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OE17gbpF79ZeG3LR5bo00013927@hotmail.com>

Things just keep getting worse.  Again, special thanks to Rupert Boleyn,
Larsen Whipsnade, and Bruce Johnson.


By the end of 1117/ early 1118, Strephon has assembled his fleet at
Depot/Zarushagar.  It is here he becomes aware of the attacks on the
Solomani Rim and the Spinward Marches.  The loyal fleet holds numerical
superiority over the defenders, so the Emperor decides to crush Dulinor
first.  Once Ilelish has been secured, the combined fleet will move out to
reinforce the Domain of Sol.  Because the fleet assets were drawn from
insulated sectors, it is believed that each front will remain relatively
stable until the usurper can be dealt with.  Nevertheless, the two foreign
invaders do force the Imperial fleet to change their strategies.  Rather
than a slow, practiced campaign similar to the first Ilelish revolt, the
need for the ships on the frontiers convinces the Emperor to wage a more
vigorous offensive.  Spinward Zarushagar and trailing Ilelish become the
primary battlefields in 1118/1119.

 Dulinor, for his part, lacks the fleet strength to wage counter offenses.
By relying on reserve and planetary forces to help offset his numerical
deficiency, he was forced to surrender the strategic initiative.  Instead,
Dulinor began to wage a war of commerce raids and deep strikes, designed to
destroy the assets that will allow fleets to move across the Zarushagar
sector.

 On the Rim, matters continue to degrade.  Without the strategic reserve of
ships from Diaspora, the rimward sectors are forced to fight on their own.
Cowardice and incompetence had led to the collapse of the Old Expanses.  The
sector began to descend into a no man's land.  Imperial fleets in the region
began to act independent of their civil command authority, defending the Old
Expanses despite the nobility.  However, scattered and isolated, Imperial
forces were no matched for the massed Solomani units.  In response, the
Imperial fleets resorted to commerce raiding and deep strikes on command and
control centers, forcing the Solomani to dedicate an increasing number of
ships to consolidation over worlds whose nobles had already surrendered.
Unfortunately, the nature of commerce raiding forces formations to scatter.
As a result, due to battle losses, attrition, and even some out right
treason, the Old Expanses fleets began to melt away.   Daibei and the
Solomani Rim both faired better against the Confederate offensive.  Adair
was able to link up with the Vegans, and maintained a viable front all
through 1118 and 1119.

 In the Spinward Marches, Archduke Norris' situation was turning more
serious by the week.  By 1118, Strephon had accepted Norris' self-promotion.
With his title confirmed, Norris took personal command for the war.  Fast
reaction plans called for the mobilization of Deneb fleet, to counter
Zhodani advances in the Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach.  Though Imperial
fleets had been pushed out of the Jewell and Regina subsectors, Consulate
advances were half hearted seeming to have been stopped by late 1118.  The
addition of Deneb fleet signaled a renewed counter offensive with the aim of
liberating Efate.  In reality, Zhodani forces swept through Trojan Reach
sector, into Rhylanor and Trin's Veil, as well as the rimward subsectors of
Deneb.

 At Capital, reports continued to file in.  With the Emperor at the Ilelish
front, direction of the war fell primarily to the admiralty.  This would
have occurred at any rate.  The difference was that the remaining nobles
began to balk at the assignment of their fleets to the fronts.  Without a
clear-cut authority, every decision experienced additional lag time.  When
news of the attack on Rhylanor and Trin's Veil reached Capital, it was
decided to release Corridor fleet to deal with the Zhodani.  Strephon's
reemphasis of the domains inserted the Archduke into the chain of command
through which orders must flow.  When faced with the command to release
Corridor fleet, Ishuggi stalled, delayed, and then finally refused.  When
news of this finally reached Corridor fleet command, in mid 1120, the fleet
tore itself apart.  Corridor's Sector Admiral, along with 9 of the 16 fleets
departed for the Spinward front, while the other 7 remained under the
command of Ishuggi's men.  Disobeying a deployment order can have only one
meaning, so Capital ordered Archduke Brzk to suppress Ishuggi.  Brzk began
to assemble his fleets, reinforced by Ley sector to help replace those ships
that had gone to Zarushagar with Strephon in 1117.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:37:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:37:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] small notice
Message-ID: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki>

If anyone has recently placed some interesting content on the TML and
seeks input from we, the readers, please know I have recently shunted a
few interesting post into my review pile. I hope to smack it tomorrow
night. So rest easy, you have at least another day's reprieve from this
deranged mind.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 04:34:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:34:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
References: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c1adfe$787c6040$cba45940@JohnDanielStrain>

I may be able to help out here -- email me off list.

John Strain 


> From: "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org>
> Subject: Wounded Colossus series?
> 
Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
enough and 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 04:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:24:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>

Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships engaged in
fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is somewhat sluggish
even for a single large ship, to say nothing of a BatRon.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:04:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:04:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202041245.g14Cjjl18691@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050657590.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

My suggestion is that the Imperium defines murder as "the unsanctioned
termination of a sapient life-form". This allows them the wiggle room to
let local rules apply. If the local rules allow duels, killing in a duel
is not murder. If they don't, the exact similar act is murder. It is, of
course, implicit that only authorities acknowlegded by the Imperium can
give the sanction.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:34:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>
>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.

Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
little bit of support.

Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
TTL15 infantryman).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:45:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:45:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>>My take is that the 34 fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are
>>raised and maintained by the worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat
>>below the Imperial average in strength)
>
>Considering that this is one of the Imperium's most threatened and
>vulnerable borders, wouldn't it make sense for it to receive support
>from the core worlds?

Some of us are doubtful about from how far away you can really support
anything. There are logistical problems. If a battleship is stationed at
Mora, how does Vland help maintain it. The classical way is that Vland
gives Mora a check for the work, whereupon Mora does the work and then
buys stuff from Vland for the amount. But this presupposes some degree of
trade between the two worlds.

Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
Marches.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:07:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Simple Design Systems
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204125758.01c6bde0@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:27, Michael Taylor wrote:
>So be aware that these are my personal reactions based on my personal 
>feeling of what Traveller should be.

Sure!

>3. USD Size. I dont know what this is or why I should care?

The USD Size parameter is driven from the T4 starship combat rules; this is 
a number you have to have in order to do T4 combat.

>Doesn't seem to be the same as the "USP" in High Guard.

It's not.

>If I *did* care I'd want to know why this system couldn't handle size 0-7 
>or 9 or more?

Sizes 8 and 9 correspond to items between 100 and 9999 dtons, which is the 
size range of ships that QSDS handles.  Items larger than size 9 are 10,000 
dtons or larger; Sizes 0 through 7 are for items smaller than 100 dtons.

>9. WEAPONS. Spinal Mount Weapons. Without this, the entire system is
>useless to me. If I can't build ALL my ships with this system, I dont want
>to learn a 'new' system.

QSDS can't build all Traveller starships; it's roughly similar to the old 
Book 2 design system, in that it handles only vessels between 100 and 5,000 
tons, and only has a limited set of choices for equipping your ships.  One 
reason that pains were made to preserve FF&S compatibility was to ensure 
that people who wanted more options could build them later.

>Well, that ought to give you an idea of how I look at it.

Yes; that was helpful.

>Just a little too much 'extraneous' stuff for me. I want to be able to see
>a ship on Babylon 5 or Andromeda and build completely it 20 minutes later.

With a little practice, I believe you actually can; I've done QSDS designs 
with nothing more than a pencil, paper, calculator, and about a half-hour 
of time.  Not as fast as Book 2, but faster than High Guard (and certainly 
faster than any Traveller ship design since High Guard).

>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for.

These are the old WarpWar starship rules (I own a copy - fun little game, 
but IMHO not as good as the original StarFire) with a little bit of TFT 
embellishment.  WarpWar was a strategic space game produced by Metagaming 
(the same folks who gave Steve Jackson his start in the industry, and also 
publishers of Wizard/Melee/TFT).

These sorts of rules are not what I'd really consider a design system; it's 
more a rating or play balance system.  In a role-playing game, the referee 
has to decide what is possible and what is not, based on his conception of 
the ship's actual design.  As an example, it appears that a "systemship 
rack" can hold any size of systemship, from a very small 10-point design up 
to a thousand point dreadnought (even if the warpship mounting the racks is 
much "smaller" than the systemship in question).

I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives enough 
detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.  It's also nice to have some 
idea of the exterior of the ship.  At least in my games, the players spend 
a lot of time in, on, and around ships, so being able to describe them in 
detail helps add a lot to my games.

However, with your request (and the WarpWar rules) in mind, I've whomped* 
up some really basic Traveller ship design rules.  This rules set will 
appear in a follow-up posting tonight, and are one-parameter (volume) 
rules.  I doubt that it's possible to get Traveller rules more streamlined 
than this.  The trade-off is that there is considerable "slop" in them, 
even compared to QSDS.  Designs should be within about 20% of "reality" 
(except for price, which is estimated).  Very little detail is supplied, 
but the design system should be straightforward and very fast to use.

* Yes, that's a technical term.  ;-)

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:36:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202041245.g14Cjjl18691@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205020730.00a48da0@mail.qrc.com>

Trivial Traveller Ship Design

This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
"Travelleresque" ship designs.  It is intended to be used by a referee, 
since a wide variety of potentially-unbalancing designs can be 
constructed.  In any case, all ship designs should be thoroughly vetted by 
the referee before allowing them into a campaign.

To construct a ship, decide on a volume (in dtons) for the vessel, and 
cross index the desired maneuver and jump performance in the Ship Payload 
Matrix.  The value in the body of the table is the percentage of the ship's 
volume remaining for "payload", after basic hull systems, drives, fuel, and 
power plant have been installed.  Bridge, weapons, crew and passenger 
quarters, carried craft, and other fittings must be installed from the 
remaining payload space.

Ship Payload Matrix

TL      10      10      11      12      13      14      15
Jump    0       1       2       3       4       5       6
G's
0       90%     73%     58%     42%     33%     19%     12%
1       86%     72%     56%     40%     31%     17%     10%
2       83%     71%     54%     38%     29%     15%     8%
3       79%     67%     52%     37%     27%     13%     6%
4       76%     64%     51%     35%     25%     11%     4%
5       72%     60%     49%     33%     24%     10%     3%
6       68%     56%     47%     31%     22%     8%      1%

The designer may choose any hull shape or streamlining for the ship.  The 
final payload percentage may be modified by the armor value of the ship, 
however.  Armor values listed in the table are T4 armor.

Armor Value     Payload
0               +5%
10              +4%
20              +3%
40              no change
60              -5%


Bridge

All spacecraft must have a bridge, which includes the ship's computers, 
sensors, communications gear.  Choose a bridge from the table below.  The 
volume of the bridge (in dtons) must be taken from the vessel's payload.

A minimal bridge occupies 5 dtons of payload, and may only be installed for 
ships 200 dtons or less.  This bridge provides only the most basic 
equipment.  Standard and Military bridges may be installed on either 
civilian or military vessels.  A "Military" bridge indicates a facility 
with advanced sensors, communications and (usually) a Combat Information 
Center, suitable for tactical visualization and fighting the ship.  A 
standard bridge occupies 10 dtons of payload space, while a military bridge 
occupies 20 dtons.

Crew and Passengers

Vessels 100 dtons and under can be operated by a crew of two (or even by 
one suitably skilled person in an emergency).  Larger vessels generally 
have four crewmembers, plus one per 30 dtons of non-payload (drive and 
equipment) space.  Crew quarters must be provided for the entire 
crew.  Civilian ships must allocate at least a small stateroom to each 
crewmember; officers are generally allotted a large stateroom.  Military 
vessels may use bunks for some or all enlisted crewmembers.

Passengers require staterooms; high passengers must be provided with a 
large stateroom.  An additional crewmember (a steward) must be provided for 
every eight high passengers carried.  Vessels must also carry one medic per 
120 crewmembers or 20 low passengers carried.

Bunks and low berths both occupy 1 dton of payload space.  Small staterooms 
require 2 dtons of payload, and large staterooms 4 dtons.

Cargo

Any amount of payload space may be designated for cargo.

Carried Craft

Smaller vessels may be carried by a larger ship.  A vessel in external 
grapples requires payload space equal to 150% of the carried 
craft.  Maintenance and repair of the carried craft generally requires vacc 
suit operations (greatly increasing the time and difficulty of the 
operation) while it is in the grapples.  Internal hangars and launch ports 
require payload space equal to 200% of the carried craft's volume.  Hangars 
permit normal maintenance and repair activities.  Spacious hangars require 
payload space equal to 400% of the carried craft, and provide enough space 
for easy maintenance and repair of the carried craft.

Weapons

A wide variety of weapons mounts may be fitted to vessels.  The space 
required for each weapon must come from the ship's payload, and quarters 
must be provided for the crew.  Choose weapons from the table below.  There 
is no specific limit on the number of weapons systems and defenses that may 
be installed in a military ship.  Civilian ships are generally limited to 1 
weapons system or defensive system per 100 dtons of total displacement, 
both as a matter of custom, and by engineering compromises required to keep 
hull costs under control.

TL      Weapon                  Space   Crew    Rating
11      Civilian Laser Turret   4       1       (+0) 1/2-0-0-0
15      Civilian Laser Turret   4       1       (+0) 1/2-2-2-2
  9      Missile Turret          6       1       2 missiles, +2
10      Missile Barbette        10      1       3 missiles, +3
11      Missile Barbette        9       1       3 missiles, +3
12      Missile Turret          6       1       2 missiles, +4
13      Missile Barbette        9       1       4 missiles, +4
14      Missile Turret          5       1       2 missiles, +5
14      Missile Barbette        8       1       5 missiles, +5
15      Missile Turret          4       1       2 missiles, +6
15      Missile Barbette        7       1       5 missiles, +6
11      Laser Turret            7       1       (+3) 1/2-0-0-0
11      Laser Turret Battery    45      1       (+3) 1/7-0-0-0
11      Laser Barbette          16      1       (+3) 1/2-2-0-0
11      Laser Barbette Battery  130     1       (+3) 1/9-8-5-3
12      Laser Turret            7       1       (+4) 1/2-0-0-0
12      Laser Turret Battery    45      1       (+4) 1/7-5-3-2
12      Laser Barbette          11      1       (+4) 1/2-2-0-0
12      Laser Barbette Battery  90      1       (+4) 1/9-9-5-3
13      Laser Turret            6       1       (+4) 1/2-2-0-0
13      Laser Turret Battery    40      1       (+4) 1/8-7-4-2
14      Laser Turret            6       1       (+5) 1/2-0-0-0
15      Laser Turret            5       1       (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
15      Laser Turret Battery    40      1       (+6) 1/9-9-9-9
9       PA-Gun Bay              240     3       (+2) 2/5-4-2-0
11      PA-Gun Bay              190     3       (+3) 1/7-6-5-0
10      Laser Bay               55      1       (+3) 1/2-0-0-0
12      Laser Bay               100     1       (+4) 1/6-6-6-5
12      PA-Gun Bay              185     2       (+4) 1/9-7-6-5
12      Meson Gun Bay           130     5       (+4) 2/3-2-0-0

Defenses

TL      Weapon                  Space   Crew    Rating
--      Sandcaster Turret       3       1       30 cans @ TL-12
12      Light Meson Screen      50      2       PV 7/6
12      Medium Meson Screen     330     11      PV 11/10
12      Heavy Meson Screen      1200    38      PV 13/12
12      Nuc Damper Barbette     7       1
15      Nuc Damper Turret       4       1


Other Facilities

Allocate any amount of payload space to other facilities, as desired.


Cost

Warships cost approximately MCr 1 per dton, and have no limit (other than 
available payload space) on the number of weapons they can mount.  Civilian 
ships cost between MCr 0.3 and MCr 0.5 per dton (depending on mission and 
configuration).  Armed merchants vessels generally run slightly higher 
(figure MCr 1 per turret weapon for "civilian" grade weapons).  The referee 
should adjust the cost based on personal preference and campaign factors.


Example:

The referee decides that she needs a long-range scoutship for her 
campaign.  A 150 dton hull is selected, and performance of maneuver 2 and 
jump 3 are required.  This ship will be built at TL-12 and will have 38% of 
it's space as payload.  She decides the ship does not need to be 
particularly heavily armored, so the hull is reduces to factor 20, 
increasing the payload by 3% to 41% (62 dtons).

The ship should have a decent sensor fit, so a military bridge is installed 
(20 dtons), even though a basic bridge could have been used.  An 
exploration crew of eight is chosen; two large staterooms are provided for 
the senior researchers, and six small staterooms for the crew: a total of 
20 dtons.

An 8 dton vehicle hanger is installed, which is designed to hold one or 
more grav vehicles (up to a total of 4 dtons).  Seven dtons is reserved for 
a TL-12 laser turret should the vessel need to be armed.  This leaves 7 
dtons of payload remaining; this is designated as a cargo area, to hold the 
mission's equipment and supplies.

Since this is an IISS ship, the referee decides that it is roughly 
comparable to an expensive civilian vessel.  A price of MCr 62 is (somewhat 
arbitrarily) assigned, bringing the vessel in at MCr 0.42/dton (not bad for 
Imperial contracting).


ObLegal: Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. 
Portions of this material are Copyright 1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises. 
The Trivial Design System was designed by Guy "wildstar" Garnett, and is 
Copyright 2002 Guy Garnett, all rights reserved.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:18:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:18:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:

>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>million troops.

An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
men. Still a large number, of course.

>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.

According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
field armies of 250,000 men each.

>A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
>defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the advantage
>shifts.

The source quoted above makes it 100 field armies. The same 50,000
battalions, in fact (but only because the populations are the same).

Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
45,000 battalions...

I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>

I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.

If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it available
on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author
selects.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:44:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Ring
Message-ID: <002901c1ae18$e313d360$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the irregular and occasional announcement of

the Traveller Ring:
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

Anyone who has a website with Traveller content and the willingness to
host the ring code someplace among those pages is welcomed, invited and
encouraged to join.

Our leading citizen (as of this moment) has dispatched 643 visitors to
his neighbors.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 08:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:11:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <OE63fKRfcjcMzfoV1qd00000548@hotmail.com>


>
> Some of us are doubtful about from how far away you can really support
> anything. There are logistical problems. If a battleship is stationed at
> Mora, how does Vland help maintain it. The classical way is that Vland
> gives Mora a check for the work, whereupon Mora does the work and then
> buys stuff from Vland for the amount. But this presupposes some degree of
> trade between the two worlds.
>
> Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
> build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
> maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
> Marches.

These are Imperial ships, right?  Perhaps the Imperium itself pays the cost.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 12:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 07:27:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Ring
In-Reply-To: <002901c1ae18$e313d360$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205072559.019ed330@mail.charter.net>

For a fairly complete listing of Traveller webrings surf over to:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

At 11:44 PM 2/4/2002 -0800, n2sami wrote:
>This is the irregular and occasional announcement of
>
>the Traveller Ring:
>http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info
>
>Anyone who has a website with Traveller content and the willingness to
>host the ring code someplace among those pages is welcomed, invited and
>encouraged to join.
>
>Our leading citizen (as of this moment) has dispatched 643 visitors to
>his neighbors.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence
& senseless acts of self-control.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:15:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:15:18 -0000
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:
> > I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.
> > Using an old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant")
> > I worked out the average human being has a volume of about 4
> > cubic feet, or about 0.1 cubic meter.
> 
> Laugh.  Try about 3 cubic feet, .08 cubic meters (assumes 180
> lb/80 kg).  Density of humans is very close to water.

I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
dense as water (physically, not mentally).

However, this was  both  time-consuming  and  not  very  accurate
(there was a spillage factor) and I was wondering if anyone knows
a good  website  for  various  human  measurements  (average  and
standard deviation).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 10:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 04:57:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>




> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:01:53 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> David
> 
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600 David Shayne
> <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> > I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
> > however based upon your initial response to the original question,
> >
> > Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And
> > apologies in advance if the tone of this message comes across
> > as a bit snarky only you are yelling and everything.
> >
> > David Shayne
> 
> I'm sorry for yelling. Be as SNARKY as you like :~).
> My first post was not detailed enough, though my later posts were, and
> everyone knows how things get blown apart if a misstatement is made. Like
> my cannon vs canon blunder.

I think everybody has made the cannon/canon mistake at some point. I
know I have it's just too easy and canon is one of those words that my
spell checker at least continues to insist doesn't exist (along with
'snarky' and pretty much every gaming related term.)

There was the amusing incident when a gentlesophont was explaining how
he'd added Vulcans from Star Trek to his TU with the subject line
"Vulcans are cannon in MTU." (which lead to discussions of the efficacy
of firing Leonard Nimoy against incoming missiles IIRC) 

And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:43:07 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1ae32$6ad18b80$0600a8c0@imogen>

Shan Andy wrote:
> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset
> between people living in different law levels. Would someone
> from a low law level whose used to carrying a blade and a
> sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not allowed to
> carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than
> someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held
> a real gun that works I'm not sure, I think they might be
> comparable. I'd not really thought about the psychological/
> sociological effects of law levels and what it might do to
> people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...
> 
> Thoughts anyone?

Strange as it may sound people appear to 'need' a  certain  level
of perceived risk in their lives (though  this  level  will  vary
from person to person).  People with a high  need  for  risk  but
living in a safe society will be attracted to extreme sports  and
other dangeous  voluntary  activities.  When  people  perceive  a
minor  change  in  risk  they  will  subconsciously  alter  their
behavior to return their risk to their preferred level.

For  Example:   Road  safety  experts  were  studying  a  certain
uncontrolled rail crossing in a wooded part of rural Saskatchwan.
They noted that drivers did not stop to  check  it  was  safe  to
cross.  As there were  only  2  trains  per  week  this  was  not
normally a problem but every so often there would be a collision.
So they cut back the tree line to improve  visibility  and,  they
thought, safety.  A year later they went back to check and  found
drivers were now approaching the crossing much faster ... and the
risk  of  an  accident  was  the  same  as  before.  Drivers  had
subconscously adjusted their driving habits to maintain the  same
level of perceived risk!

However, when you perceive a major change in risk then you become
either frustrated or afraid.  But this does not usually last over
the long term: if you visit some place more  dangerous  than  you
are used to it might be scary, but if  you  relocate  permanently
you'll grow accustomed to it.  (Within limits.)

So someone who is used to strong weapon control visiting an  area
of weak weapon control may percieve a greater risk 'cos  "weapons
= violence", yet at the same time some who is used to weak weapon
control (and therefore used to relying on themselves for  safety)
may also percieve a greater risk 'cos they've lost  that  control
over their own safety.  These perceptions may or may not be  true
(you'd have to compare crime statistics to genuinely know) but we
react to those perceptions regardless.  Metaphorically, its a bit
like "Which is the safer car: a 'manual'  that  give  the  driver
control, or an 'automatic' that gives the driver  less  to  worry
about?"

ObTrav: If someone relocated  from  their  homeworld  to  another
there would be a period of adjustment, sure, but most  PCs  don't
get the luxury  of  that  ...  they'd  routinely  experience  the
cultural equivalent of jet-lag.  To determine how much you'd have
to compare an individual world's law level against  that  of  the
average spaceway.

Now even though a PC may own a FGMP-15 they  would  not  normally
carry it around with them at all times.  So the question  becomes
what is the notional law level that your PCs experience (dictated
by  practicality  and  social   etiquette   rather   than   legal
restrictions)?

I'd want to check the numbers but off the top of my head  if  you
wanted a rule you could roll 2d Vs the *difference* in law  level
for the character to cope.  With adjustments based on experience.
Failure would result in a penalty to all reaction rolls while  on
the planet in question.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:07:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020204162952.00a2e030@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <3C60033C.B687E1A8@sitraka.com>

"Kelly St.Clair" wrote:
> 
> There's also the fact that if Oregon and Washington were to secede, it
> would be to get *away* from California.  (Speaking of regional culture and
> politics... :)

Well, while this if Funny Because It's True(tm), it's also a pretty good 
description of the odd state of modern identity construction that keeps the
US together, yet oh-so-far apart at the same time.

[Group of rowdy drinker in a Brubrek's]

Rowdy 1: Up Regina! For the Marches Cup!
Rowdy 2: Farc you! Up Mora! Mora Mora Moreee-Ahhh!
Rowdy 1: Regina! Burp!
Less Rowdy: I heard the Zhos have a team coming over the line to
            compete...
Rowdy 1: Farc the Zhos! This is an Impie game! 
Rowdy 2: Yeah! Up Strephon!
Rowdy 1: Up the Emperor! 
[Everyone drinks]

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 14:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:46:16 -0500
Subject: UPP Law Level vs Actual Laws (was Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
Message-ID: <F108NVBw0f0gh0eTZ2M0000dac2@hotmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>
>There will be some worlds that have high law level where
>people will arm themselves regardless of the law (PNG)
>and some where the idea is unthinkable.  This could be also
>true of low law level worlds.

If people on a planet frequently walk around with laser rifles
over their shoulders, and consider a submachinegun to be an
essential fashion accessory for the well-dressed sophont,
will an unenforced law on the books making all these weapons
technically illegal be what the IISS uses to determine the law
level?  Or will actual day-to-day law enforcement practices and
levels of police harrassment be much more important?

And what if the natives aren't affected by such laws, but
an offworlder who ignores them gets jailed almost immediately?

"But everyone else here has an assault rifle!  Why are you
jailing me for carrying a pistol?"
"They're all members of the Pryitan Defense Reserve, as are
nearly all adult citizens of Pryitan.  Reservists are required
to have a military weapon with them at all times.  Come on,
the penal shuttle is leaving soon."

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:17:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:17:57 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020204172549.00b20e40@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <3C6005B5.4020902@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Charles McKnight wrote:

> Hi Bruce!
> 
> Do you happen to have an XML export format available?  :-)
> 


I think I can do that, but I know diddly about XML. There are a bunch of 
people working on a Traveller XML implementation, perhaps one of them 
may wish to pipe up here...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:34:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:34:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
In-Reply-To: <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>; from daveshayne@ameritech.net on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020205093454.B11525@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> 
> 
> And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
> was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
> although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
> chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."

Your spell checker okays `cannons' but not `canon'?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:28:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:28:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:04:39, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>My suggestion is that the Imperium defines murder as "the unsanctioned
>termination of a sapient life-form".

I like that; it's a workable Imperial standard, and allows enough wiggle 
room that there are plenty of dangerous situations for PCs to get mixed up in.

   --- Derek Wildstar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:33:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0800
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
> reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.

I'm interested in converting it to LaTeX, adding an index and all that
fun stuff.  Output available as DVI, PDF and PostScript.  Don't
suppose you've a copy of the text files lying about?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about whom it makes friends with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:23:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205082300.006ddad4@mindspring.com>

At 08:18 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>
>>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>>million troops.
>
>An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
>men. Still a large number, of course.

That's *roughly* 500 troops for each point. I was going on the figures I
gave in GF.  Unless i missed something in four months of research, the only
other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
Broadsword-class.

>>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
>
>According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
>of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
>field armies of 250,000 men each.

According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

>Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
>have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
>missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
>battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
>2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
>census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
>45,000 battalions...

The problems of a rough table.

>I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
>billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).

Pity you didn't mention that during playtesting.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:12:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:12:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205081228.006d5c8c@mindspring.com>

At 02:40 PM 02/04/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
>cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Macene/Rhylanor
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:43:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:43:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
In-Reply-To: <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8854BA0.1AFE%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/4/02 8:24 PM, "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships engaged in
> fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is somewhat sluggish
> even for a single large ship, to say nothing of a BatRon.

I would think that a modified version of Mayday (upped in scale) would suit
quite nicely.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:40:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
        OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system. 
Inputs:
        TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type 
(ground, air, spaceship, starship)
Outputs:
        Cost, Size

Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket 
Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like 
multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.

Jo

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multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:15:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:15:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012844779.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205081525.006dc9d4@mindspring.com>

At 09:46 AM 02/04/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>> I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
>> shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
>> Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.
>
>Unfortunately, due to surface area constraints, there's an upper limit on
meson
>screens.  This is useful for hunting deep meson sites (they can't simply
ignore
>you) but the equivalent of a heavy spinal mount will penetrate without
>difficulty.

In that case, I'll try for the maximum surface area configuration, and
employ powerful ECM to keep from getting locked up too often.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"CALIFORNIA, a large country of the West Indies...
It is uncertain whether it be a peninsula or an 
island."
 -- Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1st Edition (1771)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:36:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:36:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205083636.006e0e58@mindspring.com>

At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:

>Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
>little bit of support.
>
>Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
>at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
>their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
>TTL15 infantryman).

OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish paen
to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that armies
work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.

As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use in
combat.

Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed and
ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be reckoned
with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't toe to
toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines are
hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum disruption.  In
fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in company sized forces
raiding the rear areas!

You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!

The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
with TO&Es for half the night.  (The bagpipes were his idea, mostly.  You
ever hear "Scotland the Brave" played by a drunken Marine at 0200?  My
neighbors have!)
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 17:37:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:37:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020205173729.66538.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

With the recent discussions regarding aging and the
proliferation of nobles, I began contemplating the UPP
and how it is generated.  I have some (many) ideas
that I am working on getting together, and once I do,
I will post the resulting document.  Before doing so,
I would like to get some input regarding the nature of
the characteristics.  One at a time, beginnign with
strength.  Here it is, I await comments and
discussion.

Paul

STRENGTH

Strength, in game terms, determines how much a
character can carry and influences the use of hand
combat (non-projectile) personal weapons.  Strength
grows with age and without intervention, will
eventually level out and finally begin to decline.

Strength Comparison Chart:
Value	Strength
  0     The character is unable to maintain
        consciousness.  Muscles will not
        respond at all.
  1     Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic,
        "Vegetable".  Very little muscular
        exertion.  No ability to apply any
        significant pressure.
  2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
        Ability to apply limited pressure
        to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
        overwhelmed by average strength.
  3     Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.
        Ability to apply normal pressure
        to move small objects (<100 lbs). 
  4     Pre-teen (10-12), Elderly.
        Ability to apply normal pressure to
        move household objects (100-250 lbs).
  5     Typical Young Teen (12-14), Weak Desk
        Jockey.  Limited ability to move
        heaviy objects (250+ lbs).
  6     Typical Middle Teen (14-16), Typical
        Desk Jockey.  Ability to move most
        household objects (100-250 lbs).
  7     Typical Older Teen (16-18), Local
        Gym Jock.  Ability to move heavy
        objects (250+ lbs) with limited
        exertion.
  8     Local Gym "Strong Man", Military
        "Desk" Jockey (read: Officer?).
  9     Typical College Athlete,  Military
        Grunt, Bouncer.
  A     Typical Professional Athlete,
        Trained Military Forces
  B     Military Elite Forces
  C     World's Strongest Man Competitor,
        Olympic Weight Lifting Competitor
  D     World's Strongest Man Champion,
        Olympic Weight Lifting Champion
  E     Near Super-human Strength.
  F     Super-human Strength.  Ability to
        lift vehicles, etc.








__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:05:35 -0000
Subject: [TML] Dragging back OT : Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGEANCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Sorry to resend this but I never saw it appear on the list so am resending
it.

 Hmm, very good point (threat level vs. Law level.)

To answer your question, if the law prevented me from carrying I would not
have _normally_ carried, the exceptions being a few trips where I knew there
would be a HIGH risk of armed violence.

 ISTR that the definition of Law Level was linked to the
 "chance/likelihood" of official intervention.  Or am I babbling again?

 Another sudden point, should extremely low law levels (poss.
 modified by gov type) give a chance of automatic skills in weapons.

 A RL for Ex: A friend of mine in Zimbabwe grew up on a farm in
 Bandit country, approx 6 hrs away from police/army response.  Due
 to the high threat of attack by armed troops he learnt to handle
 firearms at a _very_ early age.  (Please note all ages are
 approx, I'm working on 18 yr old memories here)
 i.e. Loading magazines was his very first memory (about 2-3yrs);
 by the age of 5 he could fire a light pistol (and was expected to
 if they were attacked).  At 8 he got rifle training every
 Saturday; and was proficient with a FN rifle by the age of 10ish.

 Just some On Topic musings right now.

(and no I'm not interested in discussing the RL events of this
time period in my life, anyone else's or the political/history
thereof, except in passing and On Topic, sorry)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> Sent: 04 February 2002 18:19
>
> Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped
> you from
> legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of
> town unarmed?
>
> Otherwise, your point is excellent.
>
> > At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
> > >Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and
> > early 80's
> > >I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of
> town.  However
> > >when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
> > >wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on
> > my holidays
> > >to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
> > >situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
> > >
> > >I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and
> traders feel, you
> > >carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.
>
>  Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
> http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
> mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>
> IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+
> as- so zh+ vi-
>      	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
>
> Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that
> reality and the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -
> Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:27:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The return of NERVA
In-Reply-To: <000801c1a927$f8f0bdb0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020205182715.50120.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com>

NASA Proposes Atomic Rocket Program
By PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer 

WASHINGTON (AP) - NASA (news - web sites) has proposed
spending almost a billion dollars over the next five
years to develop atomic-powered rockets that could
speed spacecraft across the heavens and
nuclear-reactors to energize outposts on distant
planets. 

In President Bush (news - web sites)'s 2003 federal
budget, released Monday, the space agency proposes to
spend about $46.5 million to begin developing nuclear
electric rockets and $79 million more to build
atomic-powered generators that can fly on spacecraft. 

Such atomic-driven energy systems, said Ed Weiler,
NASA's associate administrator for science, would
eventually free NASA from a dependance on chemical
rockets, which are relatively slow and clunky, in the
agency's exploration of distant worlds, such as
Jupiter's moons or the planet Pluto. 

Right now, NASA spacecraft are launched by a burst of
chemical rockets that burn for a few minutes to break
away from Earth's gravity. After that, said Weiler,
the spacecraft must drift across deep space toward
their target or whip around nearby planets to gain
speed, voyages that can take years. The spacecraft, in
most cases, are powered by solar cells that convert
sunlight to electricity. For distant planets, the
sunlight often is so dim that there is little
electricity for instruments. 

``That's like exploring the West using covered
wagons,'' said Weiler. 

He envisions rockets that use nuclear fission or
fusion that could fire for months, driving the
spacecraft to higher and higher speeds, and then
slowing the spacecraft when it approaches its target.
Such a technique could possibly halve the time of a
17-year voyage to Pluto, the only solar system planet
not yet visited. 

Weiler said that NASA has used nuclear-powered
generators to power 20 spacecraft in the past, but now
has only one such generator left in its inventory.
Using nuclear generators would free spacecraft from
their dependance on the sun for electrical power. 

Nuclear generators, Weiler said, could energize long,
detailed explorations of Mars, or power mobile
laboratories traveling the surface of the Red Planet. 

NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe said that nuclear
powered rockets and generators would help humans
``conquer the problems of distance and time'' in space
exploration. 

The proposal is sure to be opposed by some who fear
that a launch accident could cause a nuclear-powered
spacecraft to explode and possibly scatter radioactive
material around the globe. Some earlier launches of
atomic-powered craft attracted pickets, lawsuits and
protesters. 

Weiler said he believes it is possible to build
nuclear-powered rockets and generators that would not
present a hazard to Earth when they were launched into
space. 

``The number one issue would be safety,'' he said.
``Anything that we build would have to safely survive
the worst possible scenario, which would be a rocket
blowing up on the pad. 

``If you can't show that a system could survive that,
then don't talk to me,'' Weiler said he would tell
engineers. 


=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 19:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:05:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1ae78$84a81100$44a45940@JohnDanielStrain>

Hey Stephen, save all your text to a doc on your comp and shoot it the me
after you are done, ok?

John Strain
missingjn@dixie-net.com

> From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> Subject: Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
>
> Well, here are the first few installments at last - I've broken this
> down into several posts to avoid overwhelming the TML,


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:52:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:52:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
>
>I walk about half a mile from work (a college) to the train station down
>an isolated and unlit track. I hardly ever see anyone, let alone feel
>threatened by them... but the principal has expressed concern, and the
>site security staff have offered to walk with me. If I did feel unsafe I
>would like to have the option to take my nice big kukri along. As the law
>stands, I don't have that choice. Grrr.

Maybe you should carry a cane. It need not be steel shod.  Get a good
hardwood one, though.  From things you've said about yourself in the past, I
believe that you could learn basic hapkido cane techniques pretty quickly
from a good dojang.

--Glenn

P.S.  Others have mentioned this site before:  www.canemasters.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 19:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:02:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <3C602C2E.93A2EF93@premier.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
> 
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.

If you have access to a copy of _Imperial Squadrons_, that book has a
system for designing starship squadrons compatible with _Fifth Frontier
War_.

<<snip>>

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:50 GMT
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>Where would you locate a Depot?  

>a gas giant in system

I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
prepositioned tankers.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:53 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3c61355a.4665665@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> The classical way is that Vland
>gives Mora a check for the work, 

Why does it have to be so direct?  Vland pays Imperial taxes, the
Imperium uses the money to buy warships from Mora's shipyards and pay
the crews' salaries.  It's no different to taxes from Kansas City
being used to pay shipworkers in Norfolk.  Mora itself might get a tax
rebate in return for providing actual warships instead of just money.

>Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
>build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
>maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
>Marches.

I tend to think there's some hard limit that makes shipbuilding a lot
more difficult than the raw figures in the various Traveller books
might imply.  (perhaps some critical bottleneck in materials.  How
rare is lanthanum?) Therefore, perhaps the Spinward Marches' shipyards
are already at full capacity, and the only way to get extra warships
is to make them in the Core and send them to Mora, as you suggest.

It also explains why so many ex-Navy personnel are footloose
Travellers instead of going back home and settling down - home is back
in Dadudashaag, and it's a long journey back from Macene/SM even if
the Personnel Bureau has given you a Middle Passage travel warrant...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:27:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1012940825.0.81412600@www.springmail.com>

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>Trivial Traveller Ship Design
>
>This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
>"Travelleresque" ship designs. 

<snip>

I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken, but I must admit I actually like it quite a bit.  While I wouldn't use it to design any long-term/important ships, it's almost exactly the sort of system I wanted for designing quick background color 'spear carrier' ships.  One area where the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives don't affect price? I suspect this could pretty easily be worked into an equation (avg. of M + J = x MCr/ton; x defined by drive number), but then again, considering the type of ships this system would be used for (random encounters, highport-filler, assorted other background color) maybe that really is more detail than we need.

Anyhow, thanks for posting this.  I'll definitely file it away and very well may end up using it.  Much more in tune with my 'on the fly' design needs than QSDS!

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 5: Planetology
Message-ID: <3c643ba9.6281389@post.demon.co.uk>

PLANETARY DATA

There are a total of eight inhabited planets in the Vincennes system,
not counting minor bases on asteroids and moons.  Vincennes itself has
11 billion sophonts, but Paven is also a major world, with 600 million
inhabitants.  The settlements on Sorbonne and Charonne both number
around the half-million mark, while the other establishments are much
smaller.


Short form (CT style)

Montmartre	X/5A1000-0	Ex  Eo  Ba
Sorbonne	D/5B056A-C	Ex  Ni
Charonne	X/8A3516-F	Ex  Eo  Ni
Oxford		(gas giant)
Harvard 	(gas giant)
Vincennes Belt	(planetoid belt)
Bologna		(gas giant)

VINCENNES	A/899AA6-G	Hi  In

Mushiiru 	X/201000-0	Ex  Va  Ba  
Paven		C/667837-F	Ri
Gemana  	X/8A1000-0	Ex  Eo  Ba
Khiikanu 	E/100234-F	Ex  Va  Lo  Ni
Madhala 	D/300306-F	Ex  Va  Lo  NI
Iishuldi   	X/GB3113-G	Ex  Eo  Lo  Ni
Labalaan 	C/AB1218-G	Ex  Eo  Lo  Ni
Amshida 	X/400000-0	Ex  Va  Ba


Long form (GT:First In style)

Montmartre (small, low-iron, terrestrial, desert world)

Diameter: 5,400 miles   Density: 4.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.23   Gravity: 0.49 G   
Local Year: 288 days   Day: 30 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Exotic, 0.20 (very thin)   Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (197 K)   Albedo: 0.1
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Sorbonne (small, low-iron, terrestrial, desert world)

Diameter: 5,200 miles   Density: 4.1 g/cc   
Mass: 0.21   Gravity: 0.49 G  
Local Year: 486 days (555 local days)   Day: 21 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.63 (thin)   Hydrographics: none
Frigid (187 K)   Albedo: 0.09
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 5   
Spaceport: II   Govt: Captive   CR: 6 (totalitarian)   GTL: 10

Sorbonne was founded as a penal colony, although it has since
developed some light industry and is also used for hostile-environment
military training.


Charonne (standard, low-iron, terrestrial, hostile/nitrogen)

Diameter: 7,800 miles   Density: 4.4 g/cc   
Mass: 0.76   Gravity: 0.78 G   
Local Year: 2.66 years   Day: 23 hours
2 large moons: Reims: 450 miles diameter, 45 PR orbit   Chartres: 350
miles diameter, 60 PR orbit
Atmosphere: Exotic, 1.41 (dense)   Hydrographics: 30%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, compatible biochemistry
Frigid (159 K)   Albedo: 0.28
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 5   
Spaceport: 0   Govt: Corporate   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

Charonne' primary income comes from the manufacture of biological
agents and chemicals too dangerous to produce on Vincennes itself.


Oxford (gas giant)
Diameter: 46,500 miles   Density: 1.0 g/cc   
Mass: 36.6   Gravity: 1.06 G   Local Year: 6.11 years   Day: 13 hours
10 small inner moons, 6 large moons, 5 small outer moons.  Prominent
ring system.

Harvard (gas giant)
Diameter: 68,000 miles   Density: 0.7 g/cc   
Mass: 80.0   Gravity: 1.09 G   
Local Year: 15.4 years   Day: 11 hours
8 small inner moons, 5 large moons, 3 small outer moons.  Ring system.

Vincennes Belt (planetoid belt)

Bologna (gas giant)
Diameter: 29,000 miles   Density: 1.4 g/cc   
Mass: 12.4   Gravity: 0.93 G   
Local Year: 112 years   Day: 17 hours
7 small inner moons, 4 large moons, 6 small outer moons.  Ring system.


Vincennes (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, Earthlike, ocean world)


Diameter: 8,000 miles   Density: 5.8 g/cc   
Mass: 1.08   Gravity: 1.06 G
Local Year: 25 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, polluted (high oxygen), 1.30 (dense)
Hydrographics: 93%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Torrid (339 K / 66C) to Very Cold (253 K / -20C)   Albedo: 0.42
Resources: very rich +2   MSPR:  6   PR: 10   
Starport: V   Govt: Dictatorship   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 13

See next post for full details.


Mushiiru (tiny, silicate, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 2,500 miles   Density: 3.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.02   Gravity: 0.17 G   
Local Year: 228 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, incompatible biochemistry
Torrid (326 K)   Albedo: 0.15
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Paven (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, Earthlike, ocean world)

Diameter: 6,200 miles   Density: 5.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.43   Gravity: 0.71 G
Local Year: 436 days (476 local days)   Day: 22 hours
2 small moons:  Gavot: 10 miles, 3 PR   Sarab: 60 miles, 7 PR
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, 0.85 (standard)   Hydrographics: 66% 
Ecosphere: complex animals, identical biochemistry
Cool (294 K / 21C)   Albedo: 0.31
Resources: average   MSPR: 9   PR: 7   
Spaceport: III   Govt: Oligarchy   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

See next post for details.


Gemana (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, hostile/nitrogen)

Diameter: 7,900 miles   Density: 4.9 g/cc   
Mass: 0.88   Gravity: 0.88 G   
Local Year: 684 days   Day: 14 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Exotic, 1.06 (standard)   Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, nearly identical biochemistry
Cold (271 K)   Albedo: 0.26
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Khiikanu (tiny, low-iron, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 1,000 miles   Density: 3.1 g/cc   
Mass: 0.001   Gravity: 0.07 G   
Local Year: 3.51 years   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (186 K)   Albedo: 0.1
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 2   
Spaceport: I   Govt: Oligarchy   CR: 2 (free)   GTL: 12

This insignificant rockball was the site of a Rule of Man system
defence installation, now nothing but ruins.  The planet is governed
by a clique of hereditary nobles, who claim descent from the original
Terran Navy personnel  -- although most historians *seriously* doubt
the truth of this!  Most of these nobles actually spend most of their
time on Paven.


Madhala (tiny, low-iron, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 3,100 miles   Density: 3.8 g/cc   
Mass: 0.04   Gravity: 0.27 G   
Local Year: 7.67 years   Day: 26 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (143 K)   Albedo: 0.11
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 3   
Spaceport: II   Govt: anarchy   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

Madhala has numerous very small deposits of valuable ore, too
scattered for large-scale commercial exploitation but enough to
provide a living for several thousand independent miners.  Most are
recent immigrants to the Vincennes system.


Iishuldi (standard, silicate, terrestrial, hostile/ammonia)

Diameter: 16,500 miles   Density: 1.5 g/cc   
Mass: 2.45   Gravity: 0.57 G  
Local Year: 18.7 years   Day: 14 hours
2 large moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.57 (thin)    Hydrographics: 30%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (105 K)   Albedo: 0.59
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 1   
Spaceport: 0   Govt: Corporate   CR: 2 (free)   GTL: 13

This planet is home to a corporate-owned research facility.  Little is
known of its activities.


Labalaan (standard, silicate, terrestrial, hostile/ammonia) 

Diameter: 10,200 miles   Density: 1.7 g/cc   
Mass: 0.66   Gravity: 0.40 G   
Local Year: 48.9 years   Day: 720 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.48 (very thin)    Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (79 K)   Albedo: 0.59
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 2   
Spaceport: III   Govt: Corporate   CR: 5 (repressive)   GTL: 13

The sole reason for settlement on Labalaan is its spaceport.  A joint
venture between the Vincennes government and a private consortium,
this spaceport is intended to relieve the mounting pressure on
Vincennes' main starport by diverting transient traffic away from the
main spacelanes.  Extensive handling and repair facilities for bulk
freighters and LASH tenders are under construction, after which the
starport is expected to reach Class IV (CT: Class B).  The consortium
is using convict labour for the construction work, accounting for the
high law level (and the many delays to construction).


Amshida (tiny, silicate, terrestrial, icy rockball)

Diameter: 4,100 miles   Density: 1.3 g/cc   
Mass: 0.03   Gravity: 0.12 G
Local Year: 133 years   Day: 19 hours
1 large moon
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (48 K)   Albedo: 0.51
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Next:  the detailed write-up of Vincennes and Paven's physical
conditions.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:22:10 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 6: Vincennes and Paven
Message-ID: <3c653dcd.6829242@post.demon.co.uk>

PHYSICAL DATA



VINCENNES PLANETARY DATA

Diameter: 8,000 miles (12,850 km)   Density: 5.8 g/cc   
Mass: 1.08   Gravity: 1.06 G
Local Year: 25 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, polluted (high oxygen), 1.30 (dense)
Hydrographics: 93%
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Torrid (339 K / 66C) to Very Cold (253 K / -20C)   Albedo: 0.42


Vincennes is a medium iron world, very slightly larger than Terra.
Its atmosphere is oxygen-nitrogen, with a density of 1.3
Terran-normal.  The oxygen level in the atmosphere is about 35%,
nearly twice that of Earth.  This causes irritation and drying to
exposed skin in humans (especially the eyes, lungs and mucous
membranes) and can lead to hyperventilation.  Facemasks and
respirators are therefore recommended when venturing outside a
controlled environment.  Corrosion and flammability are also
ever-present hazards on the world.

93% of the planet's surface is covered by water.  This is rich in
single-celled life that uses photosynthesis, giving the ocean a
distinctive green-blue tint and also accounting for the high oxygen
level.  More complex aquatic lifeforms are also plentiful, feeding on
the plantlife and each other.

The planet has a single continent, with an area of 12.1 million sq km
(about the size of South America).  This is mostly low-lying, with
heavily eroded hills and extensive swamplands.  Mosses and
bindweed-type plants are the only native life on land.  The continent
is in the northern (bright face) hemisphere.

Vincennes is tidally locked to its primary, with an orbital period of
24.9 standard days.  The sun Ember itself orbits around Undraczech
once every 110.5 standard days.  This means that the planet's bright
face has two suns in the sky roughly half the time, and one sun the
rest of the time.  The dark face has a day/night cycle, as Vincennes'
orbit brings Undraczech into view for half of the 25-day "year".

Vincennes has no moons.  Ember takes up about 2.9 degrees of the sky
(six times the diameter of Sol as seen from Terra).  Undraczech
("Undie" to irreverent locals) is about half that size (1.8 degrees),
but brighter.  Shadows on the world appear soft and blurry;  when both
suns are in the sky it is difficult to discern a shadow at all.  Note,
however, that most Vincenniens live in artificial habitats lit by
white light, which ignore local conditions and operate on a
Terran-standard 24-hour day.  

Vincennes suffers from dramatic fluctuations in temperature as its
orbit around Ember takes it closer or further from Undraczech.
Average temperatures on the dark face vary between 253 K (-20 C) and
295 K (22 C) over a 25-day period, while on the bright face summer
temperatures can reach 339 K (66 C).  A vast oceanic icecap covering
half the planet forms then melts again on a regular basis, dumping
huge amounts of thermal energy into the local weather systems.  The
result is almost constant violent storms, sweeping right around the
planet with no land masses to halt their progress.  Only for a brief
period in mid-winter does Vincennes know calmer weather - this is
referred to by the locals (somewhat perversely) as "springtime".  In
G:FI terms, Vincennes has a weather factor of 18 (11 in winter).
Weather can be determined using the following table:

Weather (3D):	   "Springtime"		Rest of Year
Violent Storm		3-4		   3-9
Severe Storm		5-7		   10-12
Storm		   	8-10		   13-15
Windy		   	11-13		   16-18
Calm		   	14-18		   Never


PAVEN PLANETARY DATA

Because of its importance in the system, Paven is also detailed in
full here.

Diameter: 6,200 miles   Density: 5.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.43   Gravity: 0.71 G
Local Year: 436 days (476 local days)   Day: 22 hours
2 small moons:  Gavot: 10 miles, 3 PR   Sarab: 60 miles, 7 PR
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, 0.85 (standard)   Hydrographics: 66% 
Ecosphere: complex animals, identical biochemistry
Cool (294 K / 21C)   Albedo: 0.31  Axial tilt: 15 degrees


Paven is a medium iron world, somewhat smaller than Terra and slightly
less dense.  Its atmosphere is oxygen-nitrogen, slightly thinner than
Earth's but breathable without artificial aid.  About two-thirds of
the planet is covered by water:  from space this appears as a
patchwork of sea and land with many islands and oceans.  About six
landmasses are large enough to be given the status of continents.

The planet enjoys a temperate climate, with average temperatures just
one degree lower than those of (pre-global warming) Terra.  The flora
and fauna of Paven are rich and diverse.  Many species show
exceptionally close parallels to Terran lifeforms, leading to the
widely held theory that the world was terraformed during the Second
Imperium.   Much of Paven's surface is cultivated, and food is its
major export.

Paven has two moons, but they are not visible to the naked eye and
cause no significant tides.  Its sun takes up about 1.0 degree of the
sky (twice the diameter of Sol as seen from Terra).  

Paven has a weather factor of 10, the same as Terra.  Weather can be
determined using the following table:

Weather (3D):
Violent Storm	3
Severe Storm   	4-6
Storm		7-9
Windy		10-12
Calm		13-18 


Next:  Government and law.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Metromemetics.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:20:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1ae93$489c1a60$2149cfa9@vaio>

I have a quick and dirty system based on just two factors: tonnage and
ship's purpose. Probably too simple for what you're looking for, but
inspired by the same source (Pocket Empires). Something like this:

Attack = sqrt(tonnage) x role modifier*

* Role modifers:
Military war vessel = x5
Provincial war vessel = x4
Scout = x3
Standard commercial = x2
Transport/freighter only = x1

For example, a 900-ton Imperial warship would have an attack value of 150
(square root 900 = 30, times 5 = 150).

Defense = same thing, but ruling some commercial ships may have extra armor
to merit a x3 modifier.

I then use the ratio difference between the attack and defense as a dice
modifier for fast (role-play) outcomes.

- Stanton at www.travellerlarp.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <jo_grant@us.ibm.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:40 AM
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system


> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
>
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.
>
> Jo
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:54 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 4: Astrography
In-Reply-To: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3c633ba2.6274664@post.demon.co.uk>


STELLAR DATA

ASTROGRAPHY

Vincennes is a trinary star system.  The planet Vincennes orbits the
star Ember.  Ember, in turn, orbits Undraczech.  This binary pair is
accompanied by the distant companion Guazhirniim.  The system is 7.5
billion years old.  

The layout of this system is somewhat unusual, and defies conventional
theories of planetary formation.  However, despite the best efforts of
thousands of hopeful prospectors over the centuries, not the slightest
trace of Ancient involvement has ever been detected anywhere in the
system...


Undraczech
K7 V (orange dwarf)
Temperature: 4,200 K  Luminosity: 0.115  Mass: 0.6  Radius: 0.006 AU

Ember
Separation: close (0.4 AU); eccentricity 0.05 (0.38 AU to 0.42 AU).
M7 V (red dwarf)
Temperature: 2,800 K  Luminosity: 0.004  Mass: 0.11  Radius: 0.002 AU

Guazhirniim
Separation: distant (55 AU); eccentricity 0.11 (49 AU to 61 AU).
G1 V (yellow dwarf)
Temperature: 5,960 K  Luminosity: 1.22  Mass: 1.04  Radius: 0.01 AU


Note that it would take a 1G ship three weeks to travel between the
Undraczech/Ember sub-system (where Vincennes is located) and the
Guazhirniim sub-system (which contains the world of Paven).  For this
reason most inter-system travel is done via jump drive.



SYSTEM DATA

Undraczech
Inner Limit: 0.12 AU  Life Zone: 0.32 AU to 0.44 AU   
Snow Line: 1.7 AU   Outer Limit: 24 AU
100-diameter limit: 1.2 AU
Ember creates a forbidden zone at 0.35 to 0.45 AU.
Base orbital radius: 0.42 AU.   Bode constant 0.3

Orbit	AU 	Zone		Planet		Type 
(1)	0.4 	Life		(Ember)		Companion star 
2	0.72 	Middle		Montmarte	Terrestrial	
3	1.02 	Middle		Sorbonne	Terrestrial 
4	1.62 	Middle		Charonne	Terrestrial 
5	2.82 	Outer		Oxford		Gas giant 
6	5.22 	Outer		Harvard		Gas giant 
7	10.02 	Outer		Vincennes Belt	Planetoid belt 
8	19.62 	Outer		Bologna		Gas giant 

Ember
Inner Limit: 0.022 AU  Life Zone: 0.06 AU to 0.08 AU   
Snow Line: 0.32 AU   Outer Limit: 4.4 AU
100-diameter limit: 0.4 AU (entirely within Undraczech's 100-diameter
limit)
Undraczech creates a forbidden zone beyond 0.127 AU.
Base orbital radius: 0.077 AU.   Bode constant 0.3

Orbit	AU 	Zone	Planet		Type 
1	0.08 	Life	Vincennes	Terrestrial 

Guazhirniim
Inner Limit: 0.21 AU  Life Zone: 1.1 AU to 1.4 AU   Snow Line: 5.5 AU
Outer Limit: 44 AU
100-diameter limit: 1.0 AU
Base orbital radius: 0.74 AU.   Bode constant 0.4

Orbit	AU 	Zone		Planet		Type 
1	0.74 	Inner		Mushiiru	Terrestrial
2	1.14 	Life		Paven		Terrestrial 
3	1.54 	Middle		Gemana		Terrestrial 
4	2.34 	Middle		Khiikanu	Terrestrial 
5	3.94 	Middle		Madhala		Terrestrial 
6	7.14 	Outer		Iishuldi	Terrestrial 
7	13.54 	Outer		Labalaan	Terrestrial 
8	26.34 	Outer		Amshida		Terrestrial 


Next:  Planetological details.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:58:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <20020205205839.78931.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you
> really need a
> justification, then put it down to equipment,
> taining an morale, and use in
> combat.

FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
 I know they had support from locals and other people,
but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:37:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk> <3c61355a.4665665@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C604297.FF338AE8@sitraka.com>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> It also explains why so many ex-Navy personnel are footloose
> Travellers instead of going back home and settling down - home is back
> in Dadudashaag, and it's a long journey back from Macene/SM even if
> the Personnel Bureau has given you a Middle Passage travel warrant...

Maybe this is how the office of Imperial Eugenics keeps the gene pool
healthy... retire Naval personell as young as possible never drop off
someone who retires less than 2 sectors away from their homeworld. I mean,
sooner or later you'll end up shaking hands "hiver-style".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:10:28 +1100
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki> <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020206081028.B18558@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> I'm interested in converting it to LaTeX, adding an index and all
> that fun stuff.  Output available as DVI, PDF and PostScript.  Don't
> suppose you've a copy of the text files lying about?

I've got them concatenated with Larsen's original sourrounding
comments intact.  Look at 

  http://freeman.little-possums.net/~tim/woco.txt

I also have the original emails within easy reach, but not on my
website.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:57:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020205.125754.-114985.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:37:29 -0800 (PST) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>  One at a time, beginning with
> strength.  Here it is, I await comments and discussion.
> 
> Strength Comparison Chart:
> Value	Strength
>   0     The character is unable to maintain
>         consciousness.  Muscles will not
>         respond at all.

i've never liked the "unconscious" aspect, and having STR-1 I see this a
bit clearer than most. True, an exhausted soldier could pass out, or even
become unconscious, but I personally see a marked decline first followed
by a self sacrifice, rather than slowing down the unit. I know, "never
leave a man behind," but STR-0 goes way beyond that. To me the soldier
would be near death as it is for STR-0. It's a Command decision.

>    2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
>         Ability to apply limited pressure
>         to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
>         overwhelmed by average strength.

Perhaps 2 should read <50 lbs, except for Super Boy. I'm not bed ridden
either, yet weaker then 2,  When the muscles won't respond, then you're
bed ridden.

Turokan.


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:03:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:03:49 +1100
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
References: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com> <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020206080349.A18558@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Density of humans is very close to water.

> I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
> bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
> with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
> had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
> dense as water (physically, not mentally).

The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.

I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
I didn't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:01:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
Message-ID: <20020205210131.47552.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> 
> I tend to think there's some hard limit that makes
> shipbuilding a lot
> more difficult than the raw figures in the various
> Traveller books
> might imply.  (perhaps some critical bottleneck in
> materials.  How
> rare is lanthanum?) Therefore, perhaps the Spinward
> Marches' shipyards
> are already at full capacity, and the only way to
> get extra warships
> is to make them in the Core and send them to Mora,
> as you suggest.


Could be that the Imperium is subsidising the
construction to help keep the jobs there.  


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:23:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:23:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and
> with that population to be self sufficient enough to
> not need trade?

It's been inhabited nowhere near as long as earth, and has only twice the
population; resources are unlikely to be a significant problem.  We don't
really know what industrial base is required to efficiently produce TL 12
goods, but if one TL 12 pop-A world can't manage it, three (Trin, Vincennes,
and Mora) probably can't either, and trade from the central imperium is very
limited.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:27:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:27:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <20020205205839.78931.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C604E34.4080205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Paul Walker wrote:
>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>
>>As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you
>>really need a
>>justification, then put it down to equipment,
>>taining an morale, and use in
>>combat.
>>
> 
> FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
> actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
>  I know they had support from locals and other people,
> but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.
> 

Mostly Special Forces troops, Green Beret's whose mission is cadre 
training and command of existing local forces. The Northern Alliance did 
the fighting, but they had decent CCC, tactics, and logistical support, 
which they didn't have before.

Of course, overwhelming air superiority never hurt.

"Uhh 'Stennis'? There's an arty position right here" paints with laser 
designator "that's giving us a hassle. Could you take care of it please?"

(wait 1/2 hour)

Screeeee--BOOOOOM! as a F18 drops a 2000lb bomb down arty's muzzle.

"Thanks Stennis!"

;-)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:31:08 -0700
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>Where would you locate a Depot?  
>>
> 
>>a gas giant in system
>>
> 
> I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
> only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
> facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
> it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
> would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
> prepositioned tankers.
> 
> Stephen
> 

Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding 
centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel 
source.

Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.

They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest 
Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in 
fuel tankers.

Then again, no way they're going to be easily invaded, either.

If you think an opposed landing on a beachhead would be bad, try doing 
it *on* an enemy base!!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:14:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:14:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
Message-ID: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

OK, the recent discussions about Trin's rebellion and
the probobal/potential results have gotten me
thinking.  Granted I'm not using my best gifts when I
do that, but here are my thoughts.

Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and
with that population to be self sufficient enough to
not need trade?  I have a hard time believing there
are plentious mineral sites as well as plentious
agriculture fields.  Something has got to give?

Now, before anyone jumps too hard on my case, I'm
trying to justify this in my mind with what I've read
here on the list.  My collection of source material is
VERY small, but other than the brief mention of the
rules in Gurps: Free Trader, I haven't seen anything
to answer these questions.

So, how is it that this Hi-Pop world is so self
sufficient (BTW, can someone post the UPP for Trin)

Thanks,
Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:11:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:11:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020205221135.12572.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>


--- jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design
> system. 
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying
> Capacity, Jump, Type 
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
> 
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely
> based on Pocket 
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like
> to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system
> for an Imperium like 
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere
> mortals.
> 
> Jo
> 


 Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
joy to play.
 Damn, now I want to find a copy.

Whopper

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <200202051716_MC3-F0BE-4EC2@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.

OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?

Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as seperate

>projects is a mistake.

I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS -

it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.


   --- Derek Wildstar<

1. I would love to be updated. 
2. I agree the columns should be in consistent. It's a little thing, but
*extremely* helpful. 
3. I personally like Tables mixed with rules. Same rules as in computer
programming. Put the data as close to where it's first needed as possible. 
4. I strongly disagree with this philosophy. Simpler does not mean
"Same-Only-Less-of". Simpler means DIFFERENT. Geared toward only those
effects which have the most immediate bearing on play. In other words,
Monopoloy is not a "simpler" version of  "The Real Estate Market". It's an
entirely different game.
5. I do agree with you about SSDS, though. 

>>>>>I was annoyed with QSDS for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

6. I feel the same way. I dont want *two* starship design systems. I want
one system - only better. 

>>>>That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S. 

7. I personally couldn't care less about compatiblity with FF&S. If it were
done well, I'd use it. Since it's not, I'm looking for something to
completely replace it. 

>>>>The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS
(like 
>>>>FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret)
per 
>>>>100 dtons of displacement.

8. An interesting idea and a pretty good compromise. I'd personally rather
have tonnage work for this. In other words, you simply cannot fit the power
plant and weaponry required but I realize that's easier said than done. 

>>>>That's certainly another possibility.  This may be just the gearhead in
me, 
>>>>but I prefer a design system that works in "real" units (such as dtons
and 
>>>>Mw) rather than "spaces" and "energy points".

9. Yes, that is the gearhead in you. But that's why the system that will
work for me/us *non-gearheads* isn't/shouldn't resemble the gearhead
system. 

>>>>Sure!  I don't know if I will get time and motivation to fully revise
QSDS, 
>>>>but it is looking that way right now - particularly if there is a
chance 
>>>>that people will be willing and able to use it.

10. Definittely! Whatever criticism I might have, I think its the closest
thing to idea that I've seen so far. 

>>>>Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how
many
>>>>you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints. power plants
might
>>>>be tracked in some different way (with a table giving the maximum hull
size
>>>>a given power plant can fit in? or the maximum power plant a given hull
can
>>>>take?) or the same way.
>>>>Bruce

11. Yeah, something like that...

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EB7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Long Way Home (published by BITS)

or

Long Way Home / Gateway (published by Imperium Games)<

Thanks! So far thats:

1. Ghost Ship, Travellers's Digest  #14, p. 13
2. Long Way Home (published by BITS)/Long Way Home / Gateway (published by
Imperium Games)<
3. Judges Guild, Waspwinter
4. UNCONFIRMED: There was one in a late-MT/early-TNE Challenge Magazine. It
might have been 
the special horror issue but I'm not sure and I can't find the magazine. 
Someone else might remember more.

Anyone able to narrow down possible  issue number for #4?




Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Alien Species
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EBA@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I was wondering if there were any cannonical
references to an insectoid minor race in Traveller. 
The Hiver aren't realy insectoid, and neither are the
Droyne.  So there aren't any Major* Races that are
insectoid.  Are there any minor races.
<

I never liked this myself, so I use an insect race in place of the K'kree
and use the K'kree culture for them. In most respects, the K'kree make
pretty good bugs!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Random Name Generator for Windows
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EBD@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
>>>>Question: would such a random name generator be of interest to anyone
here?

YES YES YES it would! I have many similar databases I use extensively for
campaigns and I'm always looking for more. I'd love to arrange a trade if
your intersted. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <200202051716_MC3-F0BE-4EC3@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to
their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have
the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.<

It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>

I've decided to give up programming drudgery and become a space pirate.

What is the best source of information on how to become a pirate? How do I
board other ships? Etc.?

Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
in the canon?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:36:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:36:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] TWG & Others?
Message-ID: <B8859E89.1B92%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Do any of he other "old" groups still exist, like the TWG, etc.?

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:27:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:27:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205172406.00b10910@mail.qrc.com>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
>OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.  Inputs: TL, Attack, 
>Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type (ground, air, spaceship, 
>starship) Outputs: Cost, Size

Hmmm ... take a look at the Trivial Ship Design sequence I posted last 
night.  I'm already thinking that I could simplify the weapons selection, 
which would make things easier.

I suppose for your point of view, you could reverse it (invert the 
percentages in the payload matrix): choose the payload you want, choose 
performance, and then multiply by the factor in the table to get ship size.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:40:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:40:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205173831.00a78b18@mail.charter.net>

First you need a parrot.

Preferably one of those mechanical parrots from the Dr. Who episode Douglas 
Adams (RIP) wrote (The Planet Pirates I think).

A plank mounted outside the airlock would probably be overkill, but 
definately go with the parrot.

At 05:15 PM 2/5/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
>I've decided to give up programming drudgery and become a space pirate.
>
>What is the best source of information on how to become a pirate? How do I
>board other ships? Etc.?
>
>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
>in the canon?
>
>Michael
>0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
>ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:46:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'll "illustrate" it ;)  I've got the digital models (Sulaco, APC, dropship), and the costuming group I'm part of has all the costumes (grunts, smartgunner, pilot) :D
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Taylor [mailto:MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:16 PM
To: INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Alien n


Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to
their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have
the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.<

It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:53:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] _Ground Forces_
In-Reply-To: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202052313250.12401-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>At 08:18 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
>>Douglas Berry writes:
>>
>>>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>>>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>>>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>>>million troops.
>>
>>An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
>>men. Still a large number, of course.
>
>That's *roughly* 500 troops for each point.

A 66% discrepancy is a tad more than what I get out of the word 'roughly'.

>I was going on the figures I gave in GF.

And I was pointing out that the figures you gave in GF didn't jibe 100%
with previously published material.

>Unless I missed something in four months of research, the only
>other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
>Broadsword-class.

What does that have to do with the number of troops an AsRon can carry?
FFW didn't imply that an AsRon consisted of 50 Keith-class transports, it
implied that an AsRon could carry 300,000 men and not 500,000. Something
it took me 10 minutes of research with the FFW rules to find out.

>>>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>>>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>>>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
>>
>>According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
>>of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
>>field armies of 250,000 men each.
>
>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

Doesn't GF's Unified Army of Mora correspond to FFW's troops from Mora
available for off-world operations? If not, I've seriously misread what
you said in GF.

>>Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
>>have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
>>missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
>>battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
>>2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
>>census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
>>45,000 battalions...
>
>The problems of a rough table.
>
>>I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
>>billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).
>
>Pity you didn't mention that during playtesting.

A true, though not especially fruitful, observation.

 At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:

>>Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
>>little bit of support.
>>
>>Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
>>at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
>>their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
>>TTL15 infantryman).
>
>OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish paen
>to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that armies
>work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.

I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
GM tool. What fun is it for a typical bunch of PC's that the Marines show
up? They are not another obstacle to be overcome, they are a 'game over,
no saving throw' plot device. Which means that unless I actually run a
Naval campaign some day, all that nifty material about Marines in GF is of
no Earthly use to me. They're certainly never going to show up in any game
of mine except as the aforementioned Game Over _deus ex machina_. And for
that I really don't need a TO&E.

>As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
>justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use in
>combat.

That's just it, Doug. In FFW the marines are not outstandingly effective.
They're good, but unless each marine regiment represents a much smaller
number of men than a regular regiment, they're not more effective than
any other TL15 regiment of the same training standard (Mind you, there
may not be many TL15regiments of the same training standard around). You
didn't just not follow FFW slavishly, you ignored everything it implied
completely. Fair enough, that was your privillege as the author. But don't
tell me I can't point that out if I want to.

>Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
>units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
>strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
>trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed and
>ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be reckoned
>with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't toe to
>toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines are
>hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum disruption.  In
>fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in company sized forces
>raiding the rear areas!

That would be perfectly acceptable if a Marine regiment was _smaller_ than
a standard regiment. You made it twice the size of one.

>You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!

No, and as I've said before, I think the forces in FFW are scaled down.
But be that as it may, no matter how effective the Marines are, there just
aren't enough of them to make much of a dent in the defenses of a
high-population world.

>The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
>canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
>JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
>with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
>with TO&Es for half the night.

In other words you disregarded some of the available evidence. Am I somehow
barred from pointing that out?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:13:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20020205231314.50430.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com>


> What is the best source of information on how to
> become a pirate? How do I
> board other ships? Etc.?
> 
> Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in
> the Imperium" anywhere
> in the canon?

There ought to be....any takers?

=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:05:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDEENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
>
>
>>Where would you locate a Depot?
>>
>
>>a gas giant in system
>>
>
> I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
> only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
> facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
> it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
> would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
> prepositioned tankers.
>
> Stephen
>

Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding
centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel
source.

Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.

They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest
Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in
fuel tankers.

Then again, no way they're going to be easily invaded, either.

If you think an opposed landing on a beachhead would be bad, try doing
it *on* an enemy base!!!


>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yeppers.  Think Korvia (SP?) from Doc EE Smith's Lensmen books.  Knowledge
of the existence of the fleets and manpower of even an 'Arsenal' Spinward
Marches would dramatically affect the planning of any would be foe.

If for example it were sited on Ivendo, Lanth 0909, the Sword Worlds have to
hold D'Ganzio and Sonthert against fleet level attacks. as well as assult
Lanth and attack and 'distract' the forces on Arsenal Ivendo,  and prepare
for an attack by the Darriens and additionally say try and retake the
disputed worlds.
FUN.

Arsenal or Depot would be a logical place to concentrate fleets before they
enter battle, so the fleets from Rhylanor, Mora and Lunion subsectors as
well as any that may show up from the interior would tend to concentrate
there.
so besieging it would entail dealing with them as well.

If it were in Inthe, Regina 0810, there are 9 systems with gas giants that
could get to Regina in one intermediate jump, and forces who ever is
attacking
Lanth to cover and hold Ghandi, Victoria, Victoria and Southert as being the
last stage of a two jump pattern to Lanth.  One would lose the concentration
effect of a more centrally located A/D but instead rather the there is a
Major new nexus to coreward to worry about.

As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector admiral.

As a second aside, picture what might have happened if one or another black
fleet riding species of viririi had taken over a depot.

As a third aside I would picture that the equivalent of a numbered fleet
strength is assign to depot defense, plus any ground forces

As a fourth and final aside, all this does not consider the effect of the
repair yards of the A/d Spinward Marches, you are talking A ???[8/9]6? F for
relevant world stats, even small contracts let to outside entities are worth
many MCrimps.

jml

__________________
"God does not throw dice" Albert Einstein

"Oh yes, he does throw dice" Skye Masterson

jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
___________________
___________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:34:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1012952090.0.79725100@www.springmail.com>

While formatting this for print-out I began to like it even more than I did at first, and am convinced that with a little more detail this system could be used to design ships even for PCs.  The only details that I'd like to see (and think are important in-game considerations) are:

1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy (and is probably already provided in QSDS, but it needs to be pasted into this system as well).  If the ship is used in actual play, the players are going to want to know this stuff.

2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.  I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to work up a formula where Fuel tonnage = x% of total 'equipment' tonnage with x derived somehow from the avg. M + J drive rating.  It wouldn't need to be exact; just within ~20% of the 'real' (FF&S) value (like everything else in the system).

3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC ship (especially a merchant ship where mortgage and annual maintenence costs are key considerations).  I suggested earlier an idea for a formula to come up with per ton costs for the 'equipment' section, and once that's taken care of all that's needed is to attach a column of prices to the components in each of the other sections.  Once again, all that should be necessary is a quick copy-and-paste from QSDS.

With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most non-gearheads should ever need.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:36:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:36:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <003501c19660$a4b5f6e0$e2568a90@computer>
 <3C40E248.15695.1AD5502@localhost>
 <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
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 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:44 PM +1100 1/17/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>I think you missed the point of my argument: A *particular character*
>might have a broad Merchant-14 at the appropriate cost by the skill
>tables, and variations within that skill for particular situations.  A
>different character might also have overall Merchant-14, but split
>into Haggling-10, Market Research-16, Advertising-13 and
>Evaluation-12, for the same points as 14s across the board.

Sounds like you want a "skill tree" where you have a hierarchy of 
more general and more detailed skills.  Some games have these.  I 
don't have a strong opinion on them.


>  >Well, the rules I've seen have generally applied penalties to do
>>things which didn't exist before.
>
>Wrong.  Those things always existed in the *game-world*, they just
>weren't previously *published* in a sourcebook.  Yes, it would make
>sense to apply penalties to things that no-one in the game-world had
>ever tried before -- but the situations described in sourcebooks with
>penalties are almost never of this type.  (When they are, they usually
>attract *huge* penalties, like -15 to -25!)

I'm not sure what you mean.  What I meant was that when authors added 
new skills, the generally allowed defaults for them except for more 
special things.

>  >  For example, there was never really a way to apply market analysis
>>in GURPS before Far Trader.
>
>Sure there was: roll Merchant skill, since that's the skill that
>covers that sort of thing.  There weren't any detailed *published*
>rules, but that's not the same thing.

But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having 
Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built 
their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.

>
>By the same reasoning, there weren't any rules for changing lanes in a
>busy multi-lane road, hence it should be covered in a new sourcebook
>by a new skill specific to city traffic defaulting at -4 to
>Driving(Car).

The difference is that changing lanes is something that one could 
expect to do in most world books.  Now if you made up a "Car racer" 
supplement where 90% of the rolls relied on Driving (Race Car) it 
would, IMO, be quite reasonable to make up some more detailed skill 
rules.

>  >While I don't use maneuvers (I think them a needless complication for
>>anything but a martial arts campaign) the things they apply penalties
>>to (which the maneuver then lets you buy off) are often things that
>>weren't possible before (like spin kicks).
>
>*Of course* spin kicks were possible before!  Not everyone necessarily
>trains in them, but for those who do it is not at all a particularly
>difficult maneuver to carry out.
>   There should be no penalty to do so
>in my opinion, though if you are using detailed rules it should
>probably give your opponent a bonus to their defence due to the
>difficulty of doing so without telegraphing -- again a different thing
>from assigning a direct penalty.


Well, they weren't possible in the rule set.  Obviously anything is 
possible if the GM comes up with his own rules.  I don't know if 
there should be a penalty (I don't do a lot of marial arts) and I 
don't remember if GURPS has much of a penalty. 

>  >  Where such things were possible, it was considered necessary for
>>the penalties to match the existing one (like a -4 penalty for off
>>hand use).
>
>A penalty far too broad, in my opinion.  And I can hardly be called
>ambidextrous!

I always found it reasonable.

>
>
>>Well, the amount of disads that is "average" is not explicitly
>>defined.  However, the assumption seems to be that, while PCs are
>>more capable than the average person, they aren't more "screwed up"
>>than the average person.
>
>Do note that -45 points is the *maximum* amount a PC can be "screwed
>up" in a typical campaign.  *Not* the average.  Furthermore, on
>average the points from disadvantages should be pretty similar to
>those in advantages.

Well, it is generally regarded as a standard amount and not a "really 
screwed up character".

>  >I'm not sure about that.  If the stat you need the most isn't ST or
>  >HT, then it is hard to claim that is the central stat for your
>>character.
>
>I'm not talking about *needs*, I'm talking about the assets and
>liabilities that nature and upbringing have given the character.  I'm
>using "central" stat to mean the one that is numerically the highest.
>Otherwise, the claim that the "central" stat will often be 11 or 12 is
>invalid.

But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets 
make them good at.  So people in occupations that need high IQ will 
naturally have IQ as one of the highest attributes.

>  >  Skill breadth really does, IMO, have to depend on the game utility
>>of the skill.  CT did this too.  Some of the scientific skills are
>>fairly broad while the weapon skills were subdivided, MT even going
>>so far as to add "cascade" skills.
>
>Well, here we just have to disagree completely.  Game usefulness is a
>metagame concept that I believe should be completely divorced from
>rules that model the game world, such as how long a character needs to
>practice to become competent.

I don't think this works in a real game.  But clearly we will have to 
agree to disagree.

>  >That is exactly what I'm talking about, but defining it in game
>>terms.  Just as one weapon skill hardly makes a warrior, just one
>>Engineering skill hardly makes an Engineer and, if Trading is going
>>to be central aspect to a campaign, just one Merchant skill shouldn't
>>be the basis for a Trader.
>
>So long as the level of detail (a metagame concept) doesn't affect the
>in-game-world level of competence of a character, we're in agreement.
>You can differentiate between warriors without forcing all warrior
>characters to cost more points.

But it, IMO, will.

>
>>>   After all, aren't *unmodified* skill rolls only meant to apply in
>>>stressful, time-limited, or otherwise poor circumstances?  Why are
>>>there so few bonuses for *good* conditions?
>>
>>Not really.  Routine task are often suppose to not require any roll
>>at all.
>
>That's what I mean.  Consider a person with a skill of 8.  Their
>chance of success goes from almost nil (e.g. -4), to very poor
>(unmodified), then discontinuously jumps to automatic (routine, hence
>no roll).  That discontinuity is a flaw.

I often have people make rolls at a bonus where I think it will 
affect the game.  Thus someone with driving could be required to make 
a roll at, for example, +5 but for character with skill, I might just 
not bother with the roll because it slows the game down too much.

>Furthermore, even a skilled character might encounter a mix of good
>conditions (which would ordinarily make it completely routine) and bad
>in the same task.  Should the bad conditions force a penalty, while
>the good conditions are ignored?

No.  Bonuses are part of the game.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:52:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:52:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT StrangeWhat's wrong with GURPS Supers
In-Reply-To: <000101c1a276$e0d0b760$5ad3d63f@customer>
References: <000101c1a276$e0d0b760$5ad3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <p0433010db8861f51e1a2@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:17 AM -0600 1/21/02, John Scarlett wrote:
>GypsyComet wrote
><snip>
>>On the flip side, GURPS is better at representing "normal people" (and
>>notably worse at representing supers) than Hero.
>
>Please elaborate.  As someone who owns GURPS Supers, but has never used it,
>I would be interested in hearing what's broken and any suggestion as to how
>to fix it. :-}

Its mostly that the supers genre uses "comic book physics".  So when 
you take a realistic system and scale up the power level, you find 
that the high power levels affect everything.  So that you get, for 
example, some thing being more deadly than the supers genre expects 
because that is how deadly that much force _should_ do.   This 
actually makes a find supers setting, but it isn't "four color 
comics" genre assumptions.

GURPS has some cinematic rules for various cinematic things (though I 
know more of the martial arts ones).  Conversely, Hero tends to start 
out in that "cinematic" mod and needs to be tweaked the other way if 
you want to run more realistic settings.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <200201161412_MC3-EDF4-FECC@compuserve.com>
References: <200201161412_MC3-EDF4-FECC@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb8861e43a1d6@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:12 PM -0500 1/16/02, Michael Taylor wrote:
>Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>(which I did when I wrote a GURPS Traveller articles years before GT
>came out).<
>
>Where can these articles be found?

ftp://ftp.sjgames.com/pub/GURPSnet/Archive/Conversions/Traveller/TravellerII.txt
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:54:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:54:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020121205547.93593.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020121205547.93593.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010eb88620e44068@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:55 PM -0800 1/21/02, allensh wrote:
>Where do people get this idea that GURPS keeps adding
>skills and such at such a frenetic pace? Sure, a
>sourcebook might contain a few new skills and maybe
>some new advantages and disadvantages, but these are
>generally specific to that setting and not stuff you
>would want to use in GT anyway. You are not required
>to know, buy or even acknowledge the existence of such
>things.
>
>You can, and I have, run GT from now until they
>actually invent Jump Drive with the Basic Set,
>Compendium I, the GURPS Traveller book and MAYBE GURPS
>Space. Other stuff is window dressing.

One person who runs games at cons in the bay area runs out of the 
GURPS Lite rules which has an even shorter skill set.  Those who want 
fewer skills might pick it up.  It is free from the SJG website.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:04:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TravellerPlus?
In-Reply-To: <140.826fa70.297ce86e@aol.com>
References: <140.826fa70.297ce86e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010fb886232bca50@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:43 PM -0500 1/20/02, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Jason Barnabas writes:
>
>>I generally don't like point-based CharGen.  The only exception
>>for me is Hero Games (Champions), but then again, it is truly
>>balanced and there are no divisions in the type of points.
>
>  I'm not sure I'd go quite so far as to call Hero "truly balanced", but it
>does have a very large advantage over GURPS: the volume of required material
>to be familiar with the Hero mechanics and their applications is a small
>fraction of the GURPS "new rules application of the month" problem.

Really, I find it quite the opposite and I run a GURPS Traveller game 
with GURPS Traveller and BASIC just fine.  (Actually, I wrote and 
article on doing it before SJG bought the rights and used very little 
that wasn't in BASIC).

OTOH, I find Hero too complicated for my tastes
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:10:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:10:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT StrangeWhat's wrong with GURPS Supers
In-Reply-To: <p0433010db8861f51e1a2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012954241.7419.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Its mostly that the supers genre uses "comic book physics".  So when 
> you take a realistic system and scale up the power level, you find 
> that the high power levels affect everything.  So that you get, for 
> example, some thing being more deadly than the supers genre expects 
> because that is how deadly that much force _should_ do.   This 
> actually makes a find supers setting, but it isn't "four color 
> comics" genre assumptions.

Well, that's part of the problem, but not all of it.  GURPS Supers also has a
variety of unfortunate issues with point costs and balance.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:18:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:18:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TravellerPlus?
In-Reply-To: <p0433010fb886232bca50@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012954706.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Really, I find it quite the opposite and I run a GURPS Traveller game 
> with GURPS Traveller and BASIC just fine.  (Actually, I wrote and 
> article on doing it before SJG bought the rights and used very little 
> that wasn't in BASIC).
> 
> OTOH, I find Hero too complicated for my tastes

Well, Hero is sort of overkill for a conventional Traveller game, since a
rather large portion of the rules involves super-powers which are not generally
going to be used in Traveller.  Hero w/o powers isn't very complicated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:16:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:16:17 -0800
Subject: OT Dummies guides was RE: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <20020205231314.50430.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEEAENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I am having this flash on the Tennant cartoons esp. what his Magyar would be
like!

jml
important space pirate tip #10
No rum for the navigator until after the course is punched in


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bernie McGeehan
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 3:13 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me



> What is the best source of information on how to
> become a pirate? How do I
> board other ships? Etc.?
>
> Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in
> the Imperium" anywhere
> in the canon?

There ought to be....any takers?

=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil
Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:26:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:26:12 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F272An9eiesi6dQdVC1000158c2@hotmail.com>

John
Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the 
difference.
MB

**********
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)

I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
John Scarlett-
----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>To: 
<tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives> Rupert and Tod

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:33:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <memo.591279@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I'd happily write the module...

... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for 
about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit 
perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out 
by C-section in the end :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 11:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:05:54 -0900
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote

> Timothy Little writes:
> >Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >
> > > Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population 
> > > is 22 billion, not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP 
> > > is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

> >I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop 
> > multiplier of 1 for Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that 
> > when I get it into the database.
 
> According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ Trin had a pop 
> multiplier of 1 in 1110. According to _Regency sourcebook_ 
> it had still had it in 1117. So unless you believe that 
> Trin has somehow gained no less than 7 billion inhabitants 
> in three years (pop one can be anything up to 14 billion), 
> the figure in _BtC_ is yet another of its numerous errors.

No, a POP A Multiplier 1 world can have up to
19,999,999,999 sophonts. Pop multipliers round
down, not normally. Thus it would have to gain 
'only' a little over 2 billion people in 3 years, 
which is still rather implausible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:55:42 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F22833HFnwpGR881Np700014568@hotmail.com>

Anthony

We have a basic disagreement -- or misunderstanding -- about the value of 
common defence. Trin defends the frontier worlds because Trin doesn't want 
to *become* the frontier -- just as New York is paying for a 'war against 
terror' to be fought in the Middle East because it *doesn't* that war fought 
in Manhattan. Regardless of your opinions about that particular campaign, or 
its effectiveness, the theory and practice is clear.

Once the frontier worlds fall, the battle lines move *closer* to Trin, and 
eventually those enemies are *at* Trin.

As for the SDBs being 'sensibly located' -- even if you are talking about 
'Fortress Trin' there is an advantage in strategic mobility. Say there are 
ten SDBs protecting the planet, and the resources of an industrial world 
supporting those SDBs. The Imperium can bring whatever it needs to the 
battle -- those SDBs might win vs. ten other starship, but against a fleet? 
Ten fleets? More, including a fleet of battle tenders dropping off riders in 
the outer system -- riders that *can* stand toe-to-toe with SDBs?

How long can Trin maintain the level of defence expenditure required to 
maintain their massive system fleet on station -- let alone fighting? How 
long before someone on Trin realises "hey, if we just kill these idiots 
running our government..." ?

In terms of human resources -- Trin's system fleet is less likely than the 
Imperial fleet to have top-quality, battle-hardened officers and spacemen. 
That's what a system fleet is -- a third-tier defensive force. It will 
probably lack strategic depth, but crucially it will lack experience. Trin 
could employ mercenaries, but what mercenary will want to face the Imperial 
Navy? They have to live to spend the money.

And over time, especially in continual battle conditions (the rolling 
assault I mentioned) Trin's people *will* fall to psychiatric collapse, 
while the Imperial forces can be rotated to keep them fresh.

This susceptibility to psychiatric illness is established in warfare since 
the Ancient Greeks, and has *nothing to do* with how tough your warriors are 
-- six weeks under continual battle stress and 98% of soldiers are 
vegetables. The other 2% are still functioning -- because 2% of the 
population are psychotic and can't become any more insane.

Refer to Grossman's "On Killing", and various others including Keegan's 
"Face of Battle".

Upshot? Even if the whole of Trin simultaneously blows their brain fuses and 
declares the Imperium to be the Great Satan, they have no hope of fighting 
off the Navy.

******
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium

"Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:
>Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having 
>the
>Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way
>from Trin.
Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much 
>more
>effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage
>of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem,
>launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.
Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.
>Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays
>in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 01:08:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:08:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <20020205221135.12572.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>



Jeff Hopper wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
>  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
> product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
> joy to play.
>  Damn, now I want to find a copy.

IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a copy in high
school.  Wish I still had it....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
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Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:00:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:00:49 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
References: <Springmail.105.1012952090.0.79725100@www.springmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c1aeaa$9c418ee0$3678893e@fabian>

This thread got me thinking...

Although there are many optional and funky systems, none of those are
necessarily desirable in spear carrier background ships, and there are
certain components that are always present. Some brave soul could
concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:

Choose a tech level
[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]
Choose a displacement
Specify a jump limit
Specify a G rating
Specify a % armour volume
Specify a % weapon system volume
...
Specify a % etc systems

And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
for the gearhead brigade?

Con: We need an alpha geek to volunteer to make this sucker.



----- Original Message -----
From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 05 February 2002 23:34
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System


> While formatting this for print-out I began to like it even more than I
did at first, and am convinced that with a little more detail this system
could be used to design ships even for PCs.  The only details that I'd
like to see (and think are important in-game considerations) are:
>
> 1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges,
and effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy (and is
probably already provided in QSDS, but it needs to be pasted into this
system as well).  If the ship is used in actual play, the players are
going to want to know this stuff.
>
> 2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.  I
suspect it wouldn't be too hard to work up a formula where Fuel tonnage =
x% of total 'equipment' tonnage with x derived somehow from the avg. M + J
drive rating.  It wouldn't need to be exact; just within ~20% of the
'real' (FF&S) value (like everything else in the system).
>
> 3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC
ship (especially a merchant ship where mortgage and annual maintenence
costs are key considerations).  I suggested earlier an idea for a formula
to come up with per ton costs for the 'equipment' section, and once that's
taken care of all that's needed is to attach a column of prices to the
components in each of the other sections.  Once again, all that should be
necessary is a quick copy-and-paste from QSDS.
>
> With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if
not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most
non-gearheads should ever need.
>
> Trent
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 01:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:12:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F22833HFnwpGR881Np700014568@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012957973.2749.ajackson@ping>

Michael Barry writes:
> Anthony
> 
> We have a basic disagreement -- or misunderstanding -- about the value of 
> common defence. Trin defends the frontier worlds because Trin doesn't want 
> to *become* the frontier -- just as New York is paying for a 'war against 
> terror' to be fought in the Middle East because it *doesn't* that war
> fought  in Manhattan. Regardless of your opinions about that particular
> campaign, or  its effectiveness, the theory and practice is clear.
> 
> Once the frontier worlds fall, the battle lines move *closer* to Trin, and 
> eventually those enemies are *at* Trin.

The problem is that Traveller lacks anything resembling defensible battle
lines.  The 'front' in Traveller is whereever two fleets happen to meet.  If
someone wants to fight at Trin, guess what -- they can.

> And over time, especially in continual battle conditions (the rolling 
> assault I mentioned) Trin's people *will* fall to psychiatric collapse, 
> while the Imperial forces can be rotated to keep them fresh.

Actually, Trin is vastly closer to resupply than the Imperial Navy, so most
likely the Trin naval forces will be psychologically much healthier than the
IN.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:34:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020205183105.00a314f0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:53 -0500, Michael Taylor 
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:

>It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

According to my copy of Double Adventure 5 (The Chamax Plague/Horde), that 
would be the Keith brothers, with some assistance from John Harshman, John 
Astell and Frank Chadwick.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:04:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
Message-ID: <3C609D38.C57E5A9D@premier.net>

Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:

http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html

Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
clan....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:28:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:28:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <20020205173729.66538.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1aeb6$06e6bb70$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you Paul for your examination. Two things come to mind.

1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly unless they started out
'real' strong.
2) your descriptions leave out what low strength means as an effect of
damage.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:19:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:19:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>

Mr. Uhl, declaring a desire to immortalize the work of L. E. W. in ever
increasing formats says, "Don't suppose you've a copy of the text files
lying about?"

I do. Coming at you off the list. Where there is html there is text. Are
you going to stop at LaTex? Why not POD and DocBook/XML too?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:17:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:17:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:
In-Reply-To: <F272An9eiesi6dQdVC1000158c2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205221655.01a11cc0@mail.charter.net>

Hmmm...must be kinda like telling the difference between Al Gore and the 
Unibomber...

At 11:26 AM 2/6/2002 +1100, Michael Barry wrote:
>John
>Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the 
>difference.
>MB
>
>**********
>From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
>
>I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
>National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
>John Scarlett-
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>To: 
><tml@travellercentral.com>
>Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives> Rupert and Tod

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:26:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Ground Forces (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202051825490.4754-100000@rhylanor>

Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:47:24 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Ground Forces


>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

The problem we had with the system was that while basically sound it
couldn't reproduce modern armies to any degree of accuracy. Simply be
changing the number of BE to population (in millions) x2 gave close matches
to the modern US, UK and a few other armies. The other adaption we had was
splitting the "elite" tag down to 3 different grades: Paratroops (x1.5),
Elite/Commandos (x2) and Special Forces (x3)

FWIW: The US example used was:

Battalion Equivalents

US Population = 278 million. TL-8 = 2 BE's per million population = 556 BE's

Modifiers: x1.1 (aggressive), x1.1 (world policeman, multiple enemies) = 673

Actual costs of Divisions/ Brigades:

Divisions
Armoured: 6 Armr, 4 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 29 BE's
Infantry (Mech): 5 Armr, 5 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 28 BE's
Infantry (Medium): 2 Armr, 8 Inf, 1 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 2 Engr Bns = 20 BE's
Infantry (Light): 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr Bn = 18 BE's
Airborne: 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr, = 18 BE's
Air Assault: 9 Inf, 9 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr= 32 BE's
ACR: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, 1 FA, 1 Avn, composite Eng/ ADA Bn = 8
Marine: see below

Brigades:
Armoured: 2 Armr, 1 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 6
Infantry: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 5
I (L): 3 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 4

Marines
1st and 2nd Marine Divisions: 9 Inf, 3 FA, 1 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 36 BE's each (elite)
3rd Marine Division: 6 Inf, 2 FA, Recon, Light Armoured Recon, Amphibian
and Engineer Battalions = 24 BE's (elite)
4th Marine Division (Reserve): 9 Inf, 4 FA, 2 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 44/3 BE's (elite, reserve)

Special Forces
Rangers: 3 Battalions, Elite = 6
SFG: 15 "Battalions" (Actually half battalion in size), SF = 22.5
SFG (NG): 6 Half Battalions, SF Reserve = 3
16th SOAR: 3 Aviation Battalions = 6
Delta: 3
Marine Force Recon: 3
Total: 43.5

So:
Armr Divs: 2/1 = 67.67
Mech Divs: 3/5 = 130.67
Medium Divs: 1/1 = 26.67
Light Divs: 2/1 = 42
Air Assault Div: 1/0 = 48 (Para)
Airborne Div: 1/0 = 27 (Para)
Airborne Bde (173rd) = 7.5 (Para)
ACR: 3/1 = 26.67
Marine Corps: 3/1 = 110.67 (Elite)
Armr Bde: 0/2 = 4
Inf Bde: 0/10 =16.67
Inf Bde (L): 0/3 =4
SF: 43.5 (Mostly SF, except Rangers, elite)
FA Bdes: 7/ 17 = 38
Engr Bdes: 5/6 =21
Avn Bdes = 5/6 = 42
ADA Bdes = 3/4 = 13

Total = 669 Battalion Equivalents

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:14:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:14:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] It's neat, but is it canon?
References: <200201311811.g0VIBq629907@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1aebc$52dec3a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

Do magnetic monopoles exist IYTU?  I don't think I've seen them anywhere.
Is the science behind them out of vogue?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:53:11 +0100
Subject: [TML] New Artwork Posted
In-Reply-To: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
References: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Mike Linsenmayer wrote:
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/traveller/traveller_pic_10.htm
> 
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/traveller/traveller_pic_11.htm
> 
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/space/space_pic_8.htm
> 
> I'll be posting seeral more soon.

Lovely pictures, especially the two post cards with their flavor text.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:33:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rients)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:33:39 EST
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>

Howdy folks!

I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).  I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?

For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of Cthulhu and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for generic advice for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.

Thanks in advance!

Jeff Rients

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:52:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:52:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B885E880.236DD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/5/02 10:52 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Maybe you should carry a cane. It need not be steel shod.  Get a good
> hardwood one, though.  From things you've said about yourself in the past, I
> believe that you could learn basic hapkido cane techniques pretty quickly
> from a good dojang.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> P.S.  Others have mentioned this site before:  www.canemasters.com
> 

back in my knife making days, I used a lot of exotic hardwoods.  I made a
lot of knives for martial artist.  One these customers got to know the
characteristics of these woods, I would end up making boken, canes, walking
sticks and stuff like that.

Cocoabola makes a simply awesome stick.  It is quite a bit denser than oak,
extremely hard and has the most beautiful colorings.  It polishes to a high
gloss, and doesn't need to be sealed.  Occasional oilings is the only
maintenance.  It also makes for a very effective blunt instrument.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:50:04 -0600
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <rq916ukhm5bps72o1kf8riepaiqkbglnqj@4ax.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800, "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

>I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
>reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.
>
>If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it available
>on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author
>selects.

Please note that the exteemed Whipsnade has expressed his intent to
place his works into the public domain.  I'm certain that he will
provide a simple confirmation of this shortly.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:54:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:54:26 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #129
Message-ID: <a9.22746e7b.299202f2@aol.com>

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  >I was wondering if there were any cannonical
>  references to an insectoid minor race in Traveller. 
>  The Hiver aren't realy insectoid, and neither are the
>  Droyne.  So there aren't any Major* Races that are
>  insectoid.  Are there any minor races.
>  <
>  
>  I never liked this myself, so I use an insect race in place of the K'kree

I don't know why we didn't do any insectoid races. Maybe we subconsciously 
thought bugs were icky? I did note for a couple of them, but they never saw 
print. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:58:31 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
Message-ID: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>

> I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
>  mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
>  paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
>  GM tool.

In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:58:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1aec2$91dc8000$6401a8c0@goca>

I have a copy of this in storage.  I loved playing it.  In fact, I think
it was another list member I bought it from on ebay.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 17:08
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system



Jeff Hopper wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
>  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
> product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
> joy to play.
>  Damn, now I want to find a copy.

IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a copy in high
school.  Wish I still had it....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:19:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:19:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020205231959.00e37a38@buffnet.net>

At 10:58 PM 2/5/2002 EST, you wrote:
>> I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
>>  mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
>>  paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
>>  GM tool.
>
>In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions. 
>
>LKW

Hello Loren,
  I suspect you have enough to do real life wise than to answer this
question ;)

How much of the previous canon material was pulled out of thin air
mentality verus "Let's get this as realistic as we can" approach?

Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
have been interesting to see.

I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)

         Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:41:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <rq916ukhm5bps72o1kf8riepaiqkbglnqj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1aec0$2d930c10$2f7de40c@loki>


J.R. Holmes reminds me that LEW had placed this great work in the public
domain. To Wit:

I did mis-remember that then re-remember it too after posting.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:44:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:44:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205224606.02039ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:27, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken

Actually, moderately seriously (with the caveat that the system represents 
only about three or four hours' work).  The drive and fuel computations 
behind the payload matrix are based on real FF&S2 data.  In fact, you can 
use the following table to estimate drive volume fairly accurately for any 
FF&S derived design system (FF&S, FF&S2, SSDS, QSDS) designs:

TL      10      10      11      12      13      14      15
         J-0     J-1     J-2     J-3     J-4     J-5     J-6
M-0     0%      17%     32%     48%     57%     71%     78%
M-1     4%      18%     34%     50%     59%     73%     80%
M-2     7%      19%     36%     52%     61%     75%     82%
M-3     11%     23%     38%     53%     63%     77%     84%
M-4     14%     26%     39%     55%     65%     79%     86%
M-5     18%     30%     41%     57%     66%     80%     87%
M-6     22%     34%     43%     59%     68%     82%     89%

The stated percentage is the proportion of the ship's overall volume that 
will be required for a jump drive and enough fuel for a single maximum 
range jump, plus the maneuver drive (HePlaR at TL-10, T-Plate at TL-11+), a 
fusion power plant, and power plant fuel for a year.  All drive components 
are assumed to be at the listed TL for the jump range: thus, all J-2 ships 
are assumed to be built at TL-11.

This last is a fairly significant limitation, since the listed TL-15 power 
plant is smaller than the (lower-output) plants required by the TL-12 
through TL-14 drive systems.  One way to fix this would be a TL-based bonus 
to payload (I'd like opinions, if this adds too much complexity or 
not).  The rule would be: if building a ship at a higher TL than the 
minimum listed at the top of the column, add the following bonus to payload:

TL      Bonus
13-14  +3%
15      +5%

Thus, a J-2, M-2 design would normally have a 54% payload; at TL-13 or 
TL-14, it would have a 57% payload, and at TL-15 it would have a 61% 
payload.  There are a few other tweaks I want to make.  These would mainly 
be to add crew and price calculations, and ensure that workstations for the 
crew are included in the volume calculation above.  The actual numbers are 
unlikely to change significantly (but may vary by +/- a few percent).

Unfortunately, the volume of the hull structure, armor, life-support, grav, 
and inertial compensation systems isn't so easy to calculate, since this 
varies widely with the actual configuration.  Real hull designs in the 100 
to 5000 dton range use between 5% and 10% of total volume for these 
systems.  The TrivShips payload matrix uses a 10% allowance for this 
purpose.  The armor modifier to the payload was done using a TLAR* method, 
so this portion of the system is subject to change as I work with it some 
more.  These are also the regions of the "real" design system that are most 
nonlinear with displacement.  Length determines the maximum power of a 
spinal weapon, while surface area determines the relative cost of armor, 
and volume determines the amount of systems that can be packed into the ship.

* TLAR = "That Looks About Right"

>I must admit I actually like it quite a bit.

Good!  :-)

>While I wouldn't use it to design any long-term/important ships, it's 
>almost exactly the sort of system I wanted for designing quick background 
>color 'spear carrier' ships.

OK; that sounded like the sort of thing that you wanted.  Here's a question 
for you - would you like the weapons list simplified a bit?  I think that I 
could simply the weapon list considerably, particularly if I had a good 
idea of what combat system to target the resulting designs at.  How would 
people use the resulting designs?  Would detailed weapons and combat stats 
even be needed?

>One area where the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives 
>don't affect price?

Yeah; this is something I want to improve.  I confess that I'd built the 
spreadsheet behind last night's posting without reference to price, and 
then by the time I noticed, it was too late to add it back in without going 
over the entire thing again.  This will be fixed in the next edition; price 
will probably be some amount per non-payload ton, plus some additional 
amount (MCr 1 per 5 dtons?) for weapons systems.  Otherwise, at the scale 
we're talking about, the systems prices for payloads are negligible.

The same is true for crew; I should have been tracking it with the 
spreadsheet from the beginning.  I suspect that the number included in the 
initial rules will result in crews that are too large.

>Anyhow, thanks for posting this.

You're welcome!


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:29:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:29:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
In-Reply-To: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020205232942.00e37a38@buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
missions for me...

1) capital ships: dreadnaught for fleet killing missions
2) Capital ships: cruisers for showing the flag and being able to survive
in the battle line
3) fighter carriers: mobile fighter bases
4) escort carriers: smaller mobile fighter bases
5) troop carriers
6) ammunition transports
7) refueling ships
8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes
9) Hospital ships
10) picket ships
11) sensor ships
12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)
13) Destroyers: warships designed to deal with commerce raiders and pirates
14) Commerce raiders
15) Survey ships
16) patrol ships
17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)
18) communications dispatch ships

Patrol ships and emergency response ships would come under a local navy set
up I would imagine

any other ideas?  What about ratios of certain ship types versus other ship
types?  Would a "factory" ship make sense for those fleets that do not have
access to a high tech populated world in order to do local support of
fleets and armies?


               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:26:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205235858.00ac0260@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and 
>effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy.

Yes; though adding this information would have bulked up the tables 
considerably, since it varies for most of the different TLs.  You can 
assume that the basic bridge uses "Basic" commo and sensors from QSDS.  The 
standard bridge uses "Improved" commo and sensor fit, while "Military" uses 
the "Advanced" communications and either "Small Military" or "Medium 
Military" depending on the size of the hull (small for many hulls under 
1000 dtons; medium for hulls over 1000 dtons).  Alternatively, consider 
selecting sensor and commo fit directly from QSDS.

>2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.

You can figure the "usual" jump fuel requirement (10% of ship volume per 
jump number) to keep the jump drives fed.  You can safely assume that ships 
include scoops if you wish.  Fuel purifiers are not actually figured into 
any of the tables (subtract 2% from payload for purifiers that take 12 
hours to purify the ship's jump fuel).

Power plant fuel is harder to compute, since most power-using payload 
systems include a "slice" of power plant in their volume.  Since we're 
going for a +/- 20% level of accuracy, the power plant fuel is negligible 
at this level of detail.  Power plant fuel is typically around 3%-5% of 
hull volume, but larger for military ships with lots of power-hungry 
weapons.  Since the power plant only needs refuelling once a year anyway, 
just include it in annual maintenance and forget about it.  ;-)

>3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC ship

Yes; see my earlier post - the next version will have better 
pricing.  Still not very accurate (and I still would not want to use this 
system for PC ships), but it'd probably be usable.

>With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if 
>not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most 
>non-gearheads should ever need.

I don't know about that; this system almost requires a calculator (to take 
the payload percentages).  Both QSDS and Book 2 are easily done with a 
pencil and paper, since almost all of the calculations are either easy 
multiplication ("quick, what's 4 times 13?") or simple addition and 
subtraction.  On top of that, TrivShips doesn't really produce enough 
detail to draw good deckplans or exteriors of the ship (though your 
requests for more detail are rapidly approaching this - and also rapidly 
approaching QSDS).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:05:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] CT/HG Ship Design Spreadsheet?
Message-ID: <B885F99C.1BFC%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

I know there must be a few of these out there; if someone could just give me
a pointer...

Thanks,
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:35:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ground Forces
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205221050.02b0c980@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8860088.23775%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:47:24 +0000
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Ground Forces


>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

The problem we had with the system was that while basically sound it
couldn't reproduce modern armies to any degree of accuracy. Simply be
changing the number of BE to population (in millions) x2 gave close matches
to the modern US, UK and a few other armies. The other adaption we had was
splitting the "elite" tag down to 3 different grades: Paratroops (x1.5),
Elite/Commandos (x2) and Special Forces (x3)

FWIW: The US example used was:

Battalion Equivalents

US Population = 278 million. TL-8 = 2 BE's per million population = 556 BE's

Modifiers: x1.1 (aggressive), x1.1 (world policeman, multiple enemies) = 673

Actual costs of Divisions/ Brigades:

Divisions
Armoured: 6 Armr, 4 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 29 BE's
Infantry (Mech): 5 Armr, 5 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 28 BE's
Infantry (Medium): 2 Armr, 8 Inf, 1 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 2 Engr Bns = 20 BE's
Infantry (Light): 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr Bn = 18 BE's
Airborne: 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr, = 18 BE's
Air Assault: 9 Inf, 9 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr= 32 BE's
ACR: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, 1 FA, 1 Avn, composite Eng/ ADA Bn = 8
Marine: see below

Brigades:
Armoured: 2 Armr, 1 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 6
Infantry: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 5
I (L): 3 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 4

Marines
1st and 2nd Marine Divisions: 9 Inf, 3 FA, 1 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 36 BE's each (elite)
3rd Marine Division: 6 Inf, 2 FA, Recon, Light Armoured Recon, Amphibian
and Engineer Battalions = 24 BE's (elite)
4th Marine Division (Reserve): 9 Inf, 4 FA, 2 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 44/3 BE's (elite, reserve)

Special Forces
Rangers: 3 Battalions, Elite = 6
SFG: 15 "Battalions" (Actually half battalion in size), SF = 22.5
SFG (NG): 6 Half Battalions, SF Reserve = 3
16th SOAR: 3 Aviation Battalions = 6
Delta: 3
Marine Force Recon: 3
Total: 43.5

So:
Armr Divs: 2/1 = 67.67
Mech Divs: 3/5 = 130.67
Medium Divs: 1/1 = 26.67
Light Divs: 2/1 = 42
Air Assault Div: 1/0 = 48 (Para)
Airborne Div: 1/0 = 27 (Para)
Airborne Bde (173rd) = 7.5 (Para)
ACR: 3/1 = 26.67
Marine Corps: 3/1 = 110.67 (Elite)
Armr Bde: 0/2 = 4
Inf Bde: 0/10 =16.67
Inf Bde (L): 0/3 =4
SF: 43.5 (Mostly SF, except Rangers, elite)
FA Bdes: 7/ 17 = 38
Engr Bdes: 5/6 =21
Avn Bdes = 5/6 = 42
ADA Bdes = 3/4 = 13

Total = 669 Battalion Equivalents

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:33:57 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
Message-ID: <b4.6128646.29921a45@aol.com>

Hal asks:

> Hello Loren,
>    I suspect you have enough to do real life wise than to answer this
>  question ;)
>  
>  How much of the previous canon material was pulled out of thin air
>  mentality verus "Let's get this as realistic as we can" approach?

You mean, "How much of it did we make up out of whole cloth?" 

>  Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
>  militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
>  have been interesting to see.

"Where is the prince, who can afford so to cover his land with troops for its 
defense, that a body of 10,000 men descending from the coulds could not cause 
a great deal of mischief before a force could be assembled to repel them."
          Benjamin Franklin, 1784, predicts airmobile forces (my paraphrase)


Marc and Rich Banner were veterans and all of us were military historians and 
wargamers. This means we had a good working knowledge of how to get the 
military side reasonably "realistic" but we also made some concessions to 
simplicity and what made for a good game (in our opinion). We weren't above 
outright fabrication, but you'd be surprised how few concepts of future 
warfare are totally new. You just have to ask the right "what if?" questions.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 06:19:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:19:00 -0600
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
References: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>





> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:34:54 -0700
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> >
> >
> > And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
> > was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
> > although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
> > chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."
> 
> Your spell checker okays `cannons' but not `canon'?

Different spell checker actually. I very recently decided to try a new
email reader. Although I doubt that it makes that much of a difference
as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in far more common
use than the word canon which doesn't get used much outside of theology
and the occasional rpg setting discussion.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 07:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:55:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020206185533.A19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an
> Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would
> like...what does MySQL import?

Not a great deal.  Last time I transferred stuff between databases, I
used endless rows of 'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
:)

The easiest format for me to read would probably be rows of values
with fields separated by some fixed character.  The characters used to
delimit lines and fields are user-definable.  The default for MySQL
file import is for each line to be terminated by a '\012' newline,
fields separated by commas, and backslash (\) used to protect each
occurrence of a newline, comma, or backslash within a field.



> The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...

OK, so the genie data has a bit more coverage than the classic data in
Galactic, and the FS data somewhat less.  I could always try to merge
them :)

Does anyone know how much of the Traveller universe is covered by
canonical UWP data?

Are there empires outside the 100 or so sectors covered by the large
scale map in the front of GURPS Traveller?  The galaxy as a whole
would take up half a *million* sectors.  We know that the Empress Wave
came from a race outside charted space, but is this an exception or is
the whole galaxy teeming with life?


> This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)

OK, should be easy to translate to what I've got so far.  In fact,
it's very similar.  I've broken down the UWP and have a few
translation tables to aid in importing new data and converting between
Classic and GURPS profiles.


> The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
> do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?

Wouldn't have the foggiest :/

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a database guru -- I'm using
MySQL mainly because it's already set up and phpMyAdmin is really easy
to use :)  So if MySQL has views I wouldn't know how to use them.


> If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
> supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.

Yes, I've got Postgres installed but had a bit of trouble trying to
learn how to use it :(   Now that I know more about database
administration in general, I could probably tackle it successfully
this time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:04:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:04:13 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>
Message-ID: <20020206190413.B19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter Newman wrote:
> No, a POP A Multiplier 1 world can have up to 19,999,999,999
> sophonts. Pop multipliers round down, not normally. Thus it would
> have to gain 'only' a little over 2 billion people in 3 years, which
> is still rather implausible.

Not too implausible -- just a growth rate of 3% per year.  Unusual
from the perspective of an industrialized Earth nation, granted.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 06:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:42:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
References: <3.0.1.32.20020205232942.00e37a38@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3C60D03F.4402C3B5@premier.net>



hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> Hello Folks,
>   Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
> exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
> going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
> missions for me...
> 
<<snips major combatant types>>

> 5) troop carriers

Note that these would be divided between simple transports and ships
capable of delivering jump troops.  Transport ships may also be
categorized based on the size of the ground unit they are designed to
deliver to the combat zone.  In general, regular transports are likely
to carry units between battalion and brigade sizes; jump troop
transports may be designed to move units as small as a single platoon
(an example of this latter type is the AuricTech _Reuben Tucker_-class
[see my sig file for the URL]).

> 6) ammunition transports
> 7) refueling ships
> 8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes
> 9) Hospital ships
> 10) picket ships
> 11) sensor ships

Categories 10 and 11 would tend to overlap, and would probably be
covered by destroyers and escort vessels.  Indeed, while this list
mentions destroyers (Cat 13), smaller escort vessels (such as the
_Gazelle_-class escort) are apparently ignored.

> 12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)

These would probably be cruisers, either converted to IISS requirements
(such as the several _Azhanti High Lightning_-class ships transferred to
the IISS) or purpose-built (such as the AuricTech Shipyards _Gran
Fenwick_-class, available from the URL in my sig file).

> 15) Survey ships
> 16) patrol ships
> 17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)
> 18) communications dispatch ships

Two other categories would be C3 [*] ships (intended to act as flagships
for convoy escort and other light squadrons) and VIP transports.  Note
that the AuricTech Shipyards _Electra III_-class large yacht, with her
milspec fiber-optic computers, generous commo suite, J4/4G performance
and stealth/ECM suite was designed to fill both roles.  All that would
be required would be to convert some or all of the Ballroom to a Combat
Information Center (remaining space becomes a crew lounge).  The specs
for _Electra III_ can be found on my Web site (see my sig file for the
URL).

Another category would be intelligence-gathering ships, such as the
AuricTech _Stump_-class Signals Intelligence ship (first posted to the
TML on 15 November 2001; design specs available upon request).

<<snip>>

[*] Command/Control/Communications

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:13:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:13:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <F271YDqP5ltd9LjLENg0000f749@hotmail.com>

>4. UNCONFIRMED: There was one in a late-MT/early-TNE Challenge >Magazine. 
>It might have been the special horror issue but I'm not sure >and I can't 
>find the magazine. Someone else might remember more.
>
>Anyone able to narrow down possible issue number for #4?

I found my stack of Challenge magazines after going though my bookshelf a 
little more thoroughly. The adventure in question is "The Madness Effect", 
written by Paul Lukas and published in Challenge 75 (The horror issue was nr 
54 so I was only off by 21 issues - lol).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:28:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:28:58 +1300
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1aeb6$06e6bb70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEBDHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

n2sami wrote
> 1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly unless
> they started out 'real' strong.

The _maximum_ reduction in Strength you can get by age 38 in CT
is -2.

That means a character they will be fine unless they started out
real weak, and had no Strength adds during character gen.

Frankie









From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:43:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020206194323.C19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and with that
> population to be self sufficient enough to not need trade?

Certainly.  They have the local technology to produce anything they
want.  With the energy available from large-scale fusion power,
high-tech automation, and genetic tinkering, you could make food
starting from water, rocks, and air if you had to.  The costs would be
higher than farming in rich soil, but higher than the costs of
interstellar shipping?


>  I have a hard time believing there are plentious mineral sites as
> well as plentious agriculture fields.  Something has got to give?

Certainly they're going to be more abundant in some resources than
others.  But agriculture fields are so TL8 you know :)

Most minerals are really plentiful if you have the energy to extract
them, and doubly so if you have just a few asteroids or moons in the
system.  For the *really* rare ones, it might even be cost effective
to perform nucleosynthesis.  After all, 1 Cr at TL F should buy about
10^12 joules (assuming fixed power plants can do no better than
vehicle power plants).  That's enough energy to do macroscopic amounts
of transmutation.


> Now, before anyone jumps too hard on my case, I'm trying to justify
> this in my mind with what I've read here on the list.  My collection
> of source material is VERY small, but other than the brief mention
> of the rules in Gurps: Free Trader, I haven't seen anything to
> answer these questions.

Despite my arguments above, I agree with you.  Although it would be
relatively easy for Trin to become self-sufficient, comparative
advantage and the relatively low cost of shipping dictate that trade
should be *much* higher than Far Trader suggests, and consequently the
effects of an embargo should be much greater.


> So, how is it that this Hi-Pop world is so self sufficient (BTW, can
> someone post the UPP for Trin)

A 894A96-F, according to Galactic.

BTW, for some reason Far Trader is missing Trin from its tables :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:43:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:43:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki> <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1aef6$c603a500$0600a8c0@imogen>

Jeff Yin wrote:
> Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships
> engaged in fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard
> is somewhat sluggish even for a single large ship, to say nothing
> of a BatRon.

You could try Power Projection (formerly Traveller  Full  Thrust)
from BITS.  This is Full Trust rules for  cruiser  level  combat.
Its still a beta release, but this is largely due to tweeking: it
has been trialed at several UK conventions ... often with several
cruisers at once (Ghalalk class,  Atlantic  class,  and  Gionetti
class converted from HG stats).  It still  needs  playtesting  of
various rule modifications, but ...

Alternatively, you could automate the battery fire rolls using  a
computer.  There's a program called BatteryMaster  that  you  can
download off the  net.  (Haven't  tried  it  yet,  but  it  looks
straight forward enough.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 11:48:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:48:31 +1300
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3C61CEDF.4933.3B23DB@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 14:40, John-Martin wrote:

> Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
> cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Not a threat of independence, a threat of a power struggle between 
the Sector Duke and Trin. For a variety of reasons (already covered 
by others), revolt is not an attractive option. However, a little 
"throwing their weight around" is.

> Well I been doing some thinking about siting an Arsenal, sort of a
> proto-depot, one capable of growing into a full fledged depot in time.

> Considerations

> What are the requirements of a Depot, we'll assume that an arsenal has to
> fulfill them as well.

You've missed one set. Not only does the location of a depot have 
military considerations, there are also profound political and 
economic considerations. The construction of a depot is going to 
bring considerable economic benefits to the surrounding systems 
and it will suck IN work from existing yards. There are really only 
four subsectors that have the political clout to get the depot: 
Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin's Veil. I'd imagine that there would 
be considerable political infighting between these Dukes to get the 
depot on their turf. This would lead to a lot of intrigue and horse 
trading amonst the subsector Dukes (with the major Dukes 
competing for the support of those who don't have a chance of 
actually getting the depot in their subsector). All in all, excellant 
adventure fodder.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:01:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:01:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] In Search Of James Jensen...
Message-ID: <9m626ukte51r0pin36ml80qf4d09mfkni0@4ax.com>

... formerly posting from cheeb0 at a freemail provider.

I just reorganized my mail folders, and found something I need to talk to
him about.  Does anyone have a current contact point?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:32:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:32:15 +1000
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c1af0b$df90e2c0$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: "David P. Summers" 
> >By the same reasoning, there weren't any rules for changing lanes in a
> >busy multi-lane road, hence it should be covered in a new sourcebook
> >by a new skill specific to city traffic defaulting at -4 to
> >Driving(Car).
> The difference is that changing lanes is something that one could
> expect to do in most world books.  Now if you made up a "Car racer"
> supplement where 90% of the rolls relied on Driving (Race Car) it
> would, IMO, be quite reasonable to make up some more detailed skill
> rules.

<innocent>

Isn't there a GURPS Car Wars supplement?

</innocent>

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:42:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:42:21 +1000
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c1af0b$e8a34600$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: John-Martin
> As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
> useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
> arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector
> admiral.

Which explains why the Ilelish fleet was commanded by Dulinor's brother,
Admiral Hutara.  Oops!

Depots can be very dangerous when they fall under the influence of Archdukes
and Sector Dukes, but then, they usually are under such influence, IMTU.

"A slightly cynical emperor" would probably have to spend a lot of time
breaking such connections.  They might not be too keen to provide other
Archdukes/Dukes with such dangerous weapons.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:32:19 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c1af0b$e4158080$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> I suppose for your point of view, you could reverse it (invert the
> percentages in the payload matrix): choose the payload you want, choose
> performance, and then multiply by the factor in the table to get ship
> size.

This isn't a bad idea.

It even has a kind of in-game logic to it:  a specification is issued, and a
manufacturer, or manufacturers, produce designs to match.

The viewpoint changes from that of an engineer to that of a bureaucrat, a
manager, or an accountant.  I like it.

(And for military designs:  well, admirals are basically bureaucrats and
managers, aren't they?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:58:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <20020206.084325.-222961.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

If possible, get a copy of the Citizens of the Imperium supplement. 
Opens up a lot of possibilities for previous careers.


On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:33:39 EST Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net> writes:
> Howdy folks!
> 
> I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro 
> adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 
> Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).  
> I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next 
> couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward 
> Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?
> 
> For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of 
> Cthulhu and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for 
> generic advice for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific 
> to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Jeff Rients



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:53:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:53:25 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
References: <memo.591279@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <009001c1af26$6ace2f40$5ed8d63f@customer>

Write away, right away.:{ )

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "Megan Robertson" <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Alien n


> In-Reply-To:
<02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
> com>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> I'd happily write the module...
>
> ... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.
>
> The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for
> about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit
> perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out
> by C-section in the end :-)
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 14:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:42:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <OF9128D243.11335DEF-ON85256B58.00507AF8@lotus.com>

Derek Wildstar writes:
>take a look at the Trivial Ship Design sequence I posted last night.
That's the one that prompted the subject line! Your definition of simple 
is quite, quite different from my definition of simple. If you remember 
our different perspectives over the complexity of the "Quick" and "Simple" 
design system.
I want something that fits comfortably in a Java class, not that I need a 
spreadsheet for. (Otherwise I'd just go with the Megatraveller system, 
which is by far the best in my experience! :-)

But thanks!

Jo

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:13:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206151329.89257.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> > Strength Comparison Chart:
> > Value	Strength
> >   0     The character is unable to maintain
> >         consciousness.  Muscles will not
> >         respond at all.
> 
> i've never liked the "unconscious" aspect, and
> having STR-1 I see this a
> bit clearer than most. True, an exhausted soldier
> could pass out, or even
> become unconscious, but I personally see a marked
> decline first followed
> by a self sacrifice, rather than slowing down the
> unit. I know, "never
> leave a man behind," but STR-0 goes way beyond that.
> To me the soldier
> would be near death as it is for STR-0. It's a
> Command decision.
> 
> >    2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
> >         Ability to apply limited pressure
> >         to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
> >         overwhelmed by average strength.
> 
> Perhaps 2 should read <50 lbs, except for Super Boy.
> I'm not bed ridden
> either, yet weaker then 2,  When the muscles won't
> respond, then you're
> bed ridden.

Thanks for the insight.  Here is the modifications
based on your observations...

Value	Strength
0	Bed Ridden. Muscles will not respond at all.
         The character bay be unable to maintain
         consciousness.
1	Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic, "Vegetable".
         Very little muscular exertion.  No ability
         to apply any significant pressure.
2	Toddler (2-6), Extreme Elderly.  Ability
         to apply exerted pressure to small objects
         (<50 lbs).  Easily overwhelmed by average
         strength.
3	Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.  Ability to
         apply normal pressure to move small objects
         (<50 lbs).

Does that seem more appropriate?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:44:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:44:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206154459.42894.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> 
> Thank you Paul for your examination. Two things come
> to mind.
> 
> 1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly
> unless they started out
> 'real' strong.
> 2) your descriptions leave out what low strength
> means as an effect of
> damage.

Thanks for the observations.  My comments...

1)  First, Take a glance at the modifications I posted
earlier.  Second, At 38, a character should have only
undergone 2 aging rolls (34 and 38).  Baring any
influence from Physical Development "skills" there
will be approximately 10.21% who either begin or end
up at STR 2 or lower.  I agree that this is somewhat
extreme, but part of what I want to do (eventually) is
come up with a reasonable aging process.  BTW, I
started this line of thinking as a result of the
original CharGen post, so I am trying to keep this
from being system specific.

2)  Should damage results be part of the Strength
characteristic, or part of the combat system?  An
honest question that I'm unsure of myself.  On the one
hand, Strength does play a part in damage, but on the
other, Damage is related to combat (for the most
part).  Anyone else have a take on this?

As always, thanks for the comments.


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:55:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:55:38 -0700
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com> <00aa01c1af0b$e8a34600$f4b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3C6151FA.8090208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>>From: John-Martin
>>As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
>>useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
>>arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector
>>admiral.
>>
> 
> Which explains why the Ilelish fleet was commanded by Dulinor's brother,
> Admiral Hutara.  Oops!
> 
> Depots can be very dangerous when they fall under the influence of Archdukes
> and Sector Dukes, but then, they usually are under such influence, IMTU.
> 
> "A slightly cynical emperor" would probably have to spend a lot of time
> breaking such connections.  They might not be too keen to provide other
> Archdukes/Dukes with such dangerous weapons.

Which is exactly why many people thought that Strephon reviving the 
power of the Archdukes was a Bad Idea(tm).



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:54:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
References: <3C609D38.C57E5A9D@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C61519E.9040906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:
> Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:
> 
> http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html
> 
> Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
> clan....
> 
> 

Oh yeah!

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/young_ditzie.GIF

Ditzie looks JUST like her great-great-great-[n] Grandma!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:11:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020206185533.A19685@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C6155BF.4020303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an
>>Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would
>>like...what does MySQL import?
>>
> 
> Not a great deal.  Last time I transferred stuff between databases, I
> used endless rows of 'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
> :)
> The easiest format for me to read would probably be rows of values
> with fields separated by some fixed character.  The characters used to
> delimit lines and fields are user-definable.  The default for MySQL
> file import is for each line to be terminated by a '\012' newline,
> fields separated by commas, and backslash (\) used to protect each
> occurrence of a newline, comma, or backslash within a field.

Easy to do. I've had to do a lot of data munging, Perl is a godsend, 
Perl with DBI::Oracle doubly so...

> 
>>The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
>>
> 
> OK, so the genie data has a bit more coverage than the classic data in
> Galactic, and the FS data somewhat less.  I could always try to merge
> them :)
> 
> Does anyone know how much of the Traveller universe is covered by
> canonical UWP data?

AFAIK, the 'Genie' data is the canonical Second Survey dataset. At least 
per Mark Gelinas' article and Dave Nilsen's commentary in the next to 
last or last Challenge issue, the Genie data set is canon. Flawed, as in 
, 'generated by a computer with it's needle stuck in a groove' ;-), but 
canon, nonetheless.

The FS data I have is indeed canon, as that came directly from Marc 
Miller during the Dark Years of IG.

> 
> Are there empires outside the 100 or so sectors covered by the large
> scale map in the front of GURPS Traveller?  The galaxy as a whole
> would take up half a *million* sectors.  We know that the Empress Wave
> came from a race outside charted space, but is this an exception or is
> the whole galaxy teeming with life?

There is/was an old, larger scale map of the Known Universe that was 
published at an old fanzine site. I have it at home on a CD, but it 
outlined a number of sectors outside of canon space. It was a really 
pretty map, but I never knew what the data source was. There were a 
number of smaller polities listed on the fringes.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:06:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B73@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, at least she didn't come out through your chest :D

I'll shut up now ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 4:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Alien n


In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I'd happily write the module...

... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for 
about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit 
perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out 
by C-section in the end :-)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:19:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <20020206154459.42894.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1af2a$09252100$2f7de40c@loki>

Well Paul, you are correct. I was over exaggerating for effect and
collected an effect I had not anticipated--how could I not
have--correction. I had so recently generated a bunch of geezers with
your spreadsheet ([F9] repeatedly) to observe the effects of aging in CT
at my 'real world' age that I had been blinded to the distributions and
probabilities and became focused on the answers in the outside fifths.

While it is combat that causes the temporary changes to the physical
characteristics, I have tried, at different rest stops along the
highway, to build explanation and description of what these numbers
meant (as if they had meaning).

Here I am, a champion of 'it is just a rule' trying to find deeper
meaning in a rule.

Sorry I babble incoherently.

Who here is missing Larsen E. Whipsnades mush more coherent form of
babble?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:25:21 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #127
Message-ID: <F124YewQ1N8Pik3Y8pE00013f5f@hotmail.com>

PLST 'asked'
>..........Metaphorically, its a bit
>like "Which is the safer car: a 'manual'  that  give  the  driver
>control, or an 'automatic' that gives the driver  less  to  worry
>about?"
>
He's obviously never seen me "driving"...  :-).

Here in the UK, if you pass your driving test in a car with a manual box, 
you can drive any car.  If you pass in a car with an auto box, you can only 
drive automatics until you resit the test and 'upgrade' your licence.

ObTrav:  Ever had one of those days when your Pilot is allowed to land 
(*anyone* can land - the trick is not to hit too hard:-) but not to take off 
again?
"Sorry Captain, your pilot is not qualified to launch from our port - he 
will have to either take the six-week Basic Trauining for a temporary 
licence or pay the Cr5000 waiver fee..."

Jeff
ps on the subject of knives, what happens when the local Law says that you 
cannot carry any 'locking' blade because - when it was written - the only 
locking blades were flick knives and bali-song.  Then your pc's show up with 
the Impie version of a Leatherman...

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:31:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:31:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B75@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMSAO!!!!!!!!!!  Oh yeah, that's GOTTA' be Ditzie's long lost Great-Great-Great-(n)-Grandmother :)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 7:04 PM
To: Traveller Mailing List
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?


Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:

http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html

Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
clan....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 17:13:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C61CEDF.4933.3B23DB@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013015635.2767.ajackson@ping>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:

> You've missed one set. Not only does the location of a depot have 
> military considerations, there are also profound political and 
> economic considerations. The construction of a depot is going to 
> bring considerable economic benefits to the surrounding systems 
> and it will suck IN work from existing yards. There are really only 
> four subsectors that have the political clout to get the depot: 
> Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin's Veil.

Actually, there's 5.  Regina has an outside shot, due to the Archduke.

>From a practical perspective, Rhylanor is probably the best choice, unless you
think the primary threat is the Aslan.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <20020206180717.72675.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

I remember much of this discussion from 1995-96 about
the real or perceived need for QSDS if SSDS was
available.  The "gearhead" v. non-"gearhead"
viewpoints still collide.  Funny, some things never
change.  :)  In any case, on to my comments.

I don't have my copy of FF&S yet, but it should be
possible to create a system based on the retail
pricing model.  There are certain "fixed" costs and
certain "variable" costs.  Since I don't have my copy
of FF&S, I can't build this monster, but it should be
able to be done.  Here is what I envision...

All costs are the percentage of hull space used.

Fixed Cost:
   System     TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
   Civ        ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
   BasMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
   AdvMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

These include a sensor suite, computers, and other
standard items.  It may or may not also include weapon
systems.  If desired there can be a base cost with a
multiplier for TL.

Variable Cost (Size):
   Disp Ton    TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
     100       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
     200       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

This includes such things as crew quarters, life
support, and possibly weapon "hardpoints"

Variable Cost (Drives):
               TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
               J-1     J-2     J-3     J-4
     M-1       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
     M-2       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%    

This is the same (or similar) to the table posted
earlier.  This includes the Jump Drive, Maneuver
Drive, and Power Plant (and fuel?)

The sum of the three numbers would be the % of hull
volume used.  Everything else is left to cargo and
passengers (it may be necessary to provide a table for
standard stateroom sizes to allow them to be added).

The cost and other items could be determined (if
desired) by formula or other notes.

If no one takes this on, I'll attempt it when I get
FF&S.  That is, unless everyone agrees that it would
be totally useless.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:15:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013019307.0.69908000@www.springmail.com>


"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>All drive components 
>are assumed to be at the listed TL for the jump range: thus, all J-2 ships 
>are assumed to be built at TL-11.
>
>This last is a fairly significant limitation, since the listed TL-15 power 
>plant is smaller than the (lower-output) plants required by the TL-12 
>through TL-14 drive systems.  One way to fix this would be a TL-based bonus 
>to payload (I'd like opinions, if this adds too much complexity or 
>not).  The rule would be: if building a ship at a higher TL than the 
>minimum listed at the top of the column, add the following bonus to payload:
>
>TL      Bonus
>13-14  +3%
>15      +5%
>
>Thus, a J-2, M-2 design would normally have a 54% payload; at TL-13 or 
>TL-14, it would have a 57% payload, and at TL-15 it would have a 61% 
>payload.  

I like this option, and think you should definitely add it.  It 
significantly increases the system's versatility for very little 
extra work.   

Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty much always in favor of rules that 
can be calculated as a formula using the four basic functions, and 
much prefer them to tables (e.g. HG's jump-drive formula vs. the 
tables in MT and QSDS).  Only when the formulae become really 
complicated or involve higher-order functions would I rather see a 
table (or, for the purposes of this system, rather see the rule 
abstracted out to where I don't have to deal with it at all).

>Here's a question 
>for you - would you like the weapons list simplified a bit?  I think that I 
>could simply the weapon list considerably, particularly if I had a good 
>idea of what combat system to target the resulting designs at.  How would 
>people use the resulting designs?  Would detailed weapons and combat stats 
>even be needed?

The weapons list isn't very onerous as is, so to take away options 
just for the sake of further simplifying it doesn't seem like a good 
trade-off.  I'd need to see your proposed simplified version to see 
if you've gone too far.  I do think some level of weapons detail is 
necessary because a very common use for ships designed under this 
system would be small-scale 'Mayday'-type space battles -- corsair 
ambushes merchant who tries to hold out until SDBs arrive.  I would 
play out such battles using Mayday or HG/MT, but others would 
probably use one of the T4 systems.  Designing with the latter in 
mind seems best, especially since they seem to need more detail 
(which would make converting to harder than converting from).

>This will be fixed in the next edition; price 
>will probably be some amount per non-payload ton, plus some additional 
>amount (MCr 1 per 5 dtons?) for weapons systems.  Otherwise, at the scale 
>we're talking about, the systems prices for payloads are negligible.

Wouldn't it be easier to just attach a price to each listing on the 
weapons chart?  Surely sandcasters and 'civilian lasers' are cheaper 
than meson screens and PA guns, even on a per ton basis.  Remember 
that this system is going to be used by people who have essentially 
no familiarity with FF&S, so any design steps that involve the 
designer estimating a value based on their knowledge of a similar 
situation in FF&S are no good.

Please keep tweaking and refining and continue to post updates.  I 
think this system is already a huge step in the right design-
philosophical direction towards something non-gearheads can 
comfortably use to produce ship designs that are still compatible the 
rough physical parameters of the Traveller rules, and I appluad you 
for devising it.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:18:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:18:45 GMT
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk> <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3c6370c9.6227507@post.demon.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding 
>centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel 
>source.
>
>Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.
>
>They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest 
>Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in 
>fuel tankers.

I wasn't thinking that - but if the only source of hydrogen in the
system is, say, a small planetary icecap on a planet inside the sun's
100-diameter limit, refuelling will be easy for the system's owners
but still much harder for invaders compared to skimming a gas giant.

Anyway, since when did Hawaii have major oil and uranium reserves?
;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:16:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020205231959.00e37a38@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)

Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:21:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:21:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
In-Reply-To: <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>; from daveshayne@ameritech.net on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600
References: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020206092116.A15511@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> 
> Different spell checker actually.  I very recently decided to try a
> new email reader.  Although I doubt that it makes that much of a
> difference as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in
> far more common use than the word canon which doesn't get used much
> outside of theology and the occasional rpg setting discussion.

It's commonly used, alright--but it's still wrong.  And, as my father
is a priest, he uses `canon' quite a bit in his email.  Seems odd that
a spiel chucker would accept an incorrect word but not a correct one.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:51:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:51:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F5pkpLkTgbLYluLCTao0001c7be@hotmail.com>

Hello Jeff, and welcome. :)

>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody >have 
>any advice to offer?
>
>For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of >Cthulhu 
>and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for >generic advice 
>for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific to >Traveller and/or 
>sci-fi gaming in general.

Before I can offer you any advice I need to know something.  What's the 
gaming experience/background of your players? Is it similar to yours?

Bob Kondrk

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:04:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:04:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3c6370c9.6227507@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEKGENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Actually if you look at the extra solar systems we know anything about,
jovians close in are not that unusual so a Gas Giant inside the 100 D limit
and a habitable planet is not impossible.  I think.  If not something
habitable might well be orbiting the GG.

Anyway, refueling at a depot if they don't want you too would be real hard.
I would suspect hat at least one of the GG's moons is the site of a nice
base in it's own right, and all the moons could well be riddled with deep
meson sites.

jml

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding
>centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel
>source.
>
>Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.
>
>They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest
>Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in
>fuel tankers.

I wasn't thinking that - but if the only source of hydrogen in the
system is, say, a small planetary icecap on a planet inside the sun's
100-diameter limit, refuelling will be easy for the system's owners
but still much harder for invaders compared to skimming a gas giant.

Anyway, since when did Hawaii have major oil and uranium reserves?
;-)

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:28:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:28:09 EST
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
Message-ID: <59.1719d3e9.2992ddc9@aol.com>

In a message dated 05/02/02 21:21:32 GMT Standard Time, 
tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:


> > I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
> > bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
> > with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
> > had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
> > dense as water (physically, not mentally).
> 
> The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
> water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
> slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.
> 
> I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
> demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
> horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
> I didn't.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> 

AFAIK what you describe is typical of most humans. The legs are less buoyant 
than the thorax and thus tend to sink. Reducing the buoyancy of the thorax by 
breathing out aids sinking in most people, which is why "staying calm" really 
means controlling your breathing to control bouyancy.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:54:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:54:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206103128.01e406b8@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> asked:
>And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
>simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
>for the gearhead brigade?

I believe there are spreadsheets available that will do approximately what 
you've described for most of the Traveller ship design systems.  I know 
there is one for MT starship design.  I was working on a QSDS spreadsheet 
when T4 imploded.  Another program that is close to that is Andrew 
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent "High Guard Shipyard" software.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:20:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:20:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
Message-ID: <20020206.122021.-6205.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Derek

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:54:19 -0500 Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
writes:
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> asked:
> >And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I 
> want a
> >simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS 
> compatible >for the gearhead brigade?
> 
> I believe there are spreadsheets available that will do 
> approximately what 
> you've described for most of the Traveller ship design systems.  I 
> know  there is one for MT starship design.  
>    --- Derek Wildstar
-
Ooooo, Oooooo, I would like one for MT. Who's got it? Somebody zip me a
copy, please :~)

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:12:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:12:31 -0700
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <59.1719d3e9.2992ddc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C618E2F.9040207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> AFAIK what you describe is typical of most humans. The legs are less buoyant 
> than the thorax and thus tend to sink. Reducing the buoyancy of the thorax by 
> breathing out aids sinking in most people, which is why "staying calm" really 
> means controlling your breathing to control bouyancy.

If your legs are at all muscular, they'll sink: muscle and bone are 
denser than water, fluids and most organ tissue is about the same 
density, and fat is less dense. (IIRC)

Women will tend to float evenly in the water as they tend to 
'pear-shaped' body fat distribution, more on the hips and legs than on 
the torso, whereas men tend to the 'apple-shaped' where most fat is 
carried in the abdomen. They tend to float legs down.

(which is considerably less healthy, btw..there's a significant amount 
of research into obesity showing that where the fat is is probably as or 
more important than how much of it there is...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:06:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206.121108.-6205.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:13:29 -0800 (PST) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> Thanks for the insight.  Here is the modifications
> based on your observations...
> 
> Value	Strength
> 0	Bed Ridden. Muscles will not respond at all.
>          The character bay be unable to maintain
>          consciousness.
> 1	Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic, "Vegetable".
>          Very little muscular exertion.  No ability
>          to apply any significant pressure.
> 2	Toddler (2-6), Extreme Elderly.  Ability
>          to apply exerted pressure to small objects
>          (<50 lbs).  Easily overwhelmed by average
>          strength.
> 3	Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.  Ability to
>          apply normal pressure to move small objects
>          (<50 lbs).
> 
> Does that seem more appropriate?

Yes, looks fine to me.

> Paul

I've added the following from your next post, and will add my 2 credits
worth in.

>  Should damage results be part of the Strength
> characteristic, or part of the combat system?

The question: Is their strength really gone? I say no. Temporarily
incapacitated, yes, and subject to death if not treated immediately. I
just looked at the assessing damage section of my MT books. The recovery
rate seems ok, because of not losing RAW strength. If raw strength is
lost it can't come back.

What I mean by losing raw strength is what's happening to me with Lou
Gherig's disease, or a Quadriplegic, Paraplegic, paralyzed person, etc
who has no possible way to strengthen those effected muscle groups.

Treating Superficial Wounds
Healing Rate: +1 per day for each characteristic that is injured.
Treating Minor Wounds
Healing Rate: +1 per day for 1 characteristic of the player's choice.
Treating Major Wounds
Surgery is required for all major wounds.
Healing Rate: +1 per day for 1 characteristic of the player's choice.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:11:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:11:47 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]> <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]> <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Sounds like you want a "skill tree" where you have a hierarchy of 
> more general and more detailed skills.

More accurately, an *optional* skill tree.


> I'm not sure what you mean.  What I meant was that when authors
> added new skills, the generally allowed defaults for them except for
> more special things.

Sure, default at a penalty.  So you need more points for your
character to be as competent as they were before the new supplement.
Hence inflation.


> But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having 
> Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built 
> their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.

Maybe we have different play styles: I decide what my character (or
NPC) is doing based on the situation as they see it, *then* look at
the rules to decide how to resolve it.  If the action is something
that Merchant skill would reasonably cover, then I use Merchant skill.
I *don't* decide that since there are no detailed rules, then the
character can't perform that action, or that they can only perform it
with a hefty penalty.

Maybe 99%+ of GMs look at the rules to decide what their characters
*can* do, and choose among the alternatives.  I don't know; maybe so,
and the GURPS sourcebooks are aimed at such people because they sell
better that way.


> >Do note that -45 points is the *maximum* amount a PC can be "screwed
> >up" in a typical campaign.  *Not* the average.
> 
> Well, it is generally regarded as a standard amount and not a "really 
> screwed up character".

The maximum allowed by the rules is generally regarded as "a standard
amount"?  Not around here!  I think I remember a lot of characters who
had the maximum back in our min-maxing days, but not any more.


> But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets 
> make them good at.

And half the population will have their better assets in ST and HT,
which kind of limits their occupation choices.  In fact, even DX would
be rather limiting if you look at the prevalence of real-life jobs
that require IQ-based skills in GURPS.


>  So people in occupations that need high IQ will naturally have IQ
> as one of the highest attributes.

I disagree: the far majority of jobs (about 80%) require what would in
GURPS be IQ-based skills.  Less than 50% of people will have IQ>10.
Even if the entirety of non-IQ-based jobs are filled by people without
IQ>10, then a large proportion in IQ-based jobs will have IQ<=10.

In fact, since there ar emore males in the workforce than females, and
males have higher ST than females on average, it is highly likely that
at least half of the IQ-based jobs are occupied by people who have ST
as their highest stat.


> >Well, here we just have to disagree completely.  Game usefulness is a
> >metagame concept that I believe should be completely divorced from
> >rules that model the game world, such as how long a character needs to
> >practice to become competent.
> 
> I don't think this works in a real game.

My experience says otherwise.  In a real game.

> But clearly we will have to agree to disagree.

Evidently.


> I often have people make rolls at a bonus where I think it will 
> affect the game.

So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as exceptional
conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the other hand are
ubiquitous.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D64@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Trivial Traveller Ship Design
>
>This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
>"Travelleresque" ship designs. 

<snip>

I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken, but I must admit I
actually like it quite a bit.  While I wouldn't use it to design any
long-term/important ships, it's almost exactly the sort of system I wanted
for designing quick background color 'spear carrier' ships.  One area where
the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives don't affect
price? I suspect this could pretty easily be worked into an equation (avg.
of M + J = x MCr/ton; x defined by drive number), but then again,
considering the type of ships this system would be used for (random
encounters, highport-filler, assorted other background color) maybe that
really is more detail than we need.
<


Yeah, it's definitely closer. Thanks! I'm still looking at it in more
detail. 


Some rough notes! ;}

QSDS
     |
     |
   <----- Insert perfect all-purpose Traveller Ship Design System here!
     |
     |
     |
     |
TTSD



Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D56@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
 I know they had support from locals and other people,
but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Paul<

That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm wondering if we made the
list of countries that support terrorism?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
*do* affect roleplaying in my games.<

Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
roleplaying? 

>>>>>> As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying,
>>>>>>I'm  sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in
>>>>>>that area. I'm  one of those who will pass up the ship with hot
>>>>>>design specs for the dumpy  ship with a name, color text and
>>>>>>*deckplans*. A starship is part of the  roleplaying environment, and
>>>>>>the more the design system can tell me about the  ship ahead of time,
>>>>>>the better.

I agree entirely. As far as I'm concerned a ship doesn't exist unless it
has deckplans.

But the ship design system doesn't need to concern itself with that.
Deckplans can be created regardless of the gaming stats. 


>>>>>>To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking
for a 
>>>>>>system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG and MT
(which 
>>>>>>is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such a system needs
to be 
>>>>>>compatible with some higher detail version so that the gearheads ARE
happy, 
>>>>>>and will do most of YOUR work for you by happily chunking out designs
in high 
>>>>>>detail (since very few will turn down the extra details if someone
else did 
>>>>>>the work...)

You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me. 

1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
higher detail version so the gearheads are happy. 

No it doesn't. I dont care if the gearheads are happy with it! I care if
I'm happy with it. The gearheads have plenty of systems for them. 

You don't make a simple building by starting with a skyscraper and making
all the rooms 1 foot by 1 foot. 

2. That I wont turn down extra details as long as someone else does the
work. 

Not at all true with me. I want to do all the work myself. But I want to do
it with a better design system. Your theory seems to be that the we *want*
the detail (after all, all non-gearheads want to be gearheads but they dont
have the talent or the patience), but dont want to do the work. 

In my case that's not true at all. I DONT want the detail, even if someone
else does it. I want a system that works without the extraneous detail. In
other words, it's not that I don't like the gearhead system because I think
the gearhead system produces bad results. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Simple Design Systems
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D61@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>>>WarpWar was a strategic space game produced by Metagaming 
>>>>>>>These sorts of rules are not what I'd really consider a design
system; it's 
>>>>>>>more a rating or play balance system.  

I personally want a design system to be a play balance system myself. I
dont see these as mutually exclusive goals. If no matter what system I use,
I'm still going to have to play balance them myself, then I can't use ANY
system and none of my players could ever build ships! 

>>>>>>>I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives
enough 
>>>>>>>detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.  

I'm a little confused by this. Why couldn't you use WarpWar ship designs to
draw deck plans? I could. Even the minimum rating of tonnage should give
enough of an idea to draw deckplans. 

>>>>>>>However, with your request (and the WarpWar rules) in mind, I've
whomped* 
>>>>>>>up some really basic Traveller ship design rules.  This rules set
will 
>>>>>>>appear in a follow-up posting tonight, and are one-parameter
(volume) 
>>>>>>>rules.  I doubt that it's possible to get Traveller rules more
streamlined 
>>>>>>>than this.  The trade-off is that there is considerable "slop" in
them, 
>>>>>>>even compared to QSDS.  Designs should be within about 20% of
"reality" 
>>>>>>>(except for price, which is estimated).  Very little detail is
supplied, 
>>>>>>>but the design system should be straightforward and very fast to
use.

Cool! I can't wait to see them. 

I'm personally okay with 20%. I dont think it's really possible to get any
closer than that. Even GURPS: Vehicles leaves alot of wiggle room compared
to reality. 

But I'm not looking for reality - I want to build Starships! 

Thanks! I can't wait to check these out!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D55@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

>> I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT
practice.

*** There needs to be SOME way for the Imperial Government to apply travel
designations to certain areas.  I think the Scout Service would reccommend
Amber Zones and I doubt that TAS would ignore the suggestion without good
reason.  It is like real life.  The U.S. Government issues a advistories
about certain areas.  The Scouts would too.<

So when is an "Interdiction Satellite" put up - and who launches it?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:59:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:59:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020206215942.35117.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>


--- John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Jeff Hopper wrote:
> <<snip>>
> > 
> >  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson
> Games
> > product called WarpWar. It was very simple and
> fast. A
> > joy to play.
> >  Damn, now I want to find a copy.
> 
> IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
> copy in high
> school.  Wish I still had it....
> 


Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.

Whopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:10:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <B886E9E9.1CA9%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/6/02 1:41 PM, "Michael Taylor" <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:

> You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me.
> 
> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.

Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
from the other books.

Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
wouldn't be a credibility gap.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:12:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:12:25 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:19:58PM -0800
References: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net> <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020206151225.B16229@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:19:58PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
>
> Are you going to stop at LaTex?  Why not POD and DocBook/XML too?

Well, LaTeX's the absolute coolest thing ever, so I probably won't
bother with anything but its output formats.

I've got the thing converted; just adding index entries now.
Incidentally, how's that last bit coming along?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
One doesn't expect governments to obey the law because of some
higher moral development.  One expects them to obey the law because
they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged.
                                                 --Michael Shirley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:56:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:56:59  0000
Subject: [TML]  First Campaign
Message-ID: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>

My thinking on the subject is that Traveller trades most on its background. The depth and complexity of the setting is what gives Traveller and edge over the average Sci fi setting. 

I think that the most important thing to do before running the game is to familiarise yourself well with the background. Not only that but, because there's so much of it, you need to decide how your Traveller "feels". What I mean is you have to tecide which bits of the setting are actually going to be significant in your portrayal, and which you're going to fudge. 

As you can see from the list almost everyone's take on the setting is different and in some case conflicting, so take the bist you like and lose the bits that don't interest you. Or, more accurately, you need to decide what level of detail is sufficient in a number of areas.

I know that this sounds like fairly obvious and basic, but in Traveller I believe it can make the difference between a good game and generic sci fi.

As for more specific stuff, like what sort of campaign to run, I can't really offer any advice. One of the joys of Traveller is that you can run just about anything you want and it'll work in the setting.

I'm just rambling now, I'll have a think about some stuff and write something more useful later.


---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:53:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:11 AM +1100 2/7/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>  > But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having
>>  Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built
>>  their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.
>
>Maybe we have different play styles: I decide what my character (or
>NPC) is doing based on the situation as they see it, *then* look at
>the rules to decide how to resolve it.  If the action is something
>that Merchant skill would reasonably cover, then I use Merchant skill.
>I *don't* decide that since there are no detailed rules, then the
>character can't perform that action, or that they can only perform it
with a hefty penalty.

That isn't the point.  Its how much the skill will be used.   If one 
isn't sure that there will be even one chemistry roll in a campaign, 
then it makes sense to have a broad chemistry skill.  OTOH, if you 
are running an trading game were trading skills are rolled all the 
time, it makes sense to have more than one skill for that.

Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the 
character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because, 
since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other 
character types add it to their concepts.  So in a _trading_ 
campaign, the engineer is unique and irreplaceable, but the trader is 
just some who does trading a bit better and isn't absolutely 
necessary...

>  > But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets
>>  make them good at.
>
>And half the population will have their better assets in ST and HT,
>which kind of limits their occupation choices.  In fact, even DX would
>be rather limiting if you look at the prevalence of real-life jobs
>that require IQ-based skills in GURPS.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are 
mostly things that don't appear in a game (accountants, ditch 
diggers, etc.).  I'm not sure what stats real life demands (there are 
a lot of labor jobs that would need ST, a lot of artisan jobs, like 
carpentry, that need DX, some of the higher paying jobs would seem to 
need IQ except professional atheletes).  We are also getting beyond 
the scope of a game that seeks to mostly model PCs.  The fact is that 
I don't think it unlikely that most doctors have above average IQ and 
most marines have above average DX.

>So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as exceptional
>conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the other hand are
>ubiquitous.

I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a 
standard bonus.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:22:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:22:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013023356.0.81690800@www.springmail.com>

NOTE: sorry for not just combining this with my previous response, 
but the messages were in separate digests so I'd already sent the 
last one off before I got this one...

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>>1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and 
>>effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy.
>
>Yes; though adding this information would have bulked up the tables 
>considerably, since it varies for most of the different TLs.  You can 
>assume that the basic bridge uses "Basic" commo and sensors from QSDS.  The 
>standard bridge uses "Improved" commo and sensor fit, while "Military" uses 
>the "Advanced" communications and either "Small Military" or "Medium 
>Military" depending on the size of the hull (small for many hulls under 
>1000 dtons; medium for hulls over 1000 dtons).  Alternatively, consider 
>selecting sensor and commo fit directly from QSDS.

I think that's more detail than I was looking for.  What I had in 
mind was more simple statements along the lines of "Basic bridge 
includes Radio (range: A @ TL10-12, B @ TL13-14, C @ TL15), Passive 
EMS (range: D @ TL10-12, etc.), and Active EMS (range: etc.)", with 
ranges not in actual distances or hex amounts but broad MT-style 
range bands (regional, planetary, system, etc.)  If we're not 
worrying about price, crew, power, or surface area, this shouldn't 
need to be on a table.

>>2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.
>
>You can figure the "usual" jump fuel requirement (10% of ship volume per 
>jump number) to keep the jump drives fed.  You can safely assume that ships 
>include scoops if you wish.  Fuel purifiers are not actually figured into 
>any of the tables (subtract 2% from payload for purifiers that take 12 
>hours to purify the ship's jump fuel).

This is what I was looking for, a quick rule of thumb.  I'd actually 
forgotten that the jump fuel calculation is so easy...

>Since the power plant only needs refuelling once a year anyway, 
>just include it in annual maintenance and forget about it.  ;-)

Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
MT).)

>>With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if 
>>not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most 
>>non-gearheads should ever need.
>
>I don't know about that; this system almost requires a calculator (to take 
>the payload percentages).  Both QSDS and Book 2 are easily done with a 
>pencil and paper, since almost all of the calculations are either easy 
>multiplication ("quick, what's 4 times 13?") or simple addition and 
>subtraction.  On top of that, TrivShips doesn't really produce enough 
>detail to draw good deckplans or exteriors of the ship (though your 
>requests for more detail are rapidly approaching this - and also rapidly 
>approaching QSDS).

I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer 
to (and be limited by) entries on a table.  A propos of which, this 
system seems more versatile to me than QSDS -- QSDS gives specific 
detail on a narrow range of ships, whereas this system gives more 
vague detail on a broader range of ships.  I greatly prefer the 
latter approach.  (Another aside: As presented in the T4 rulebook, 
including tables, QSDS takes 11 pages; the copy of TSDS I printed out 
yesterday is only 1.5pp AND lets me design a broader range of 
ships -- to me that's a marked improvement, well worth possibly 
having to use a calculator!)

As for not producing 'enough detail to draw good deckplans or 
exteriors,' who says it doesn't?  We know the size of the ship and 
the rough tonnage amount taken up by various component groups, 
everything else just becomes map-drawer prerogative -- if per the 
rules all configurations are effectively equal, then when drawing the 
ship use whatever config you want. Sure we won't be able to put an 
accurate label on every piece of equipment (i.e. this half-square of 
machinery on the bridge represents fire control for missile battery 
3), but, once again, that's a level of detail I don't care about 
anyway.  This system should produce enough detail to draw deckplans 
as good/detailed/accurate as those in, say, 'Snapshot,' and that's as 
much as I'd want or need for 90+% of ships.  And for that 5-10% where 
I DO want more detail/accuracy in the deckplans, I probably 
would've built those ships using a more detailed design system 
anyway...

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 23:50:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:50:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
References: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C61C14B.53C80DD2@premier.net>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
> sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
> *do* affect roleplaying in my games.<
> 
> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
> roleplaying?

That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?

Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into a
starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with
(forex) the largest sensor arrays that will fit inside the volume of the
hull, along with Extreme IR masking and multiple  without regard for the
requirements for antenna area.  The same can be said for armor and
mass.  (Indeed, the mass of armor is dependent on the surface area to be
armored; more mass of armor means either less acceleration or more
massive maneuver drives.)

If I see a Type S scout/courier with improbably large sensors and I have
no way of knowing how the designer managed the surface area issue, it
snaps my disbelief suspenders.  YMMV.

<<snip>>
> 
> I agree entirely. As far as I'm concerned a ship doesn't exist unless it
> has deckplans.

You have deckplans for the _Tigress_-class?  If so, I'd like a copy. ;-)

Also, does your deckplan edict apply to starports and cities?  If so, do
you really have reasonably detailed layouts of all the cities in your
campaign?

Both cities and ships can play useful roles in a campaign without having
a detailed layout available.

<<snip>>
> 
> You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me.
> 
> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.
> 
> No it doesn't. I dont care if the gearheads are happy with it! I care if
> I'm happy with it. The gearheads have plenty of systems for them.

That does it; you're off my Emperor's Birthday x-mail list! ;-) [See my
sig file.]

Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
these ships, you can't build it."  I enjoy gearheading; you apparently
don't.  Is your gaming happiness more important than mine?  If we create
simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to make
sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.

Note also that an extremely simple design sequence is likely to have
trouble with ships over a couple thousand dtons; designing an AHL, let
alone a _Tigress_, with a simple design system is unlikely to give
plausible results.
> 
> You don't make a simple building by starting with a skyscraper and making
> all the rooms 1 foot by 1 foot.

Perhaps not, but the same principles of architecture apply whether
you're building a storage shed or a skyscraper.  Forex, you still have
to take into account the stresses on the load-bearing members, even
those these are relatively trivial for the storage shed and quite
significant for the skyscraper.

Of course, these factors make it easier to kit-bash a storage shed (or
even a small home) than a skyscraper.  Similarly, kit-bashing a
_Beowulf_ is easier than kit-bashing a _Plankwell_.
> 
> 2. That I wont turn down extra details as long as someone else does the
> work.
> 
> Not at all true with me. I want to do all the work myself. But I want to do
> it with a better design system. Your theory seems to be that the we *want*
> the detail (after all, all non-gearheads want to be gearheads but they dont
> have the talent or the patience), but dont want to do the work.
> 
> In my case that's not true at all. I DONT want the detail, even if someone
> else does it. I want a system that works without the extraneous detail. In
> other words, it's not that I don't like the gearhead system because I think
> the gearhead system produces bad results.

Details that you consider extraneous may well be vital to another
campaign, and vice versa.  Whose details shall we dump, then?  Far
better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details, even if
only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.

For instance, in a merchant campaign, it may be sufficient simply to
declare that military ships can normally detect merchants before the
merchant can detect the military ship.  OTOH, in an Imperial Navy
campaign, such rules-of-thumb are insufficient.  The quality of one
ship's sensor suite over her opponent's may well spell the difference
between which ship wins and which ship dies.

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 00:51:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:51:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
References: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C61CF90.FE9D1249@ameritech.net>




> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:21:16 -0700
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
> 
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> >
> > Different spell checker actually.  I very recently decided to try a
> > new email reader.  Although I doubt that it makes that much of a
> > difference as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in
> > far more common use than the word canon which doesn't get used much
> > outside of theology and the occasional rpg setting discussion.
> 
> It's commonly used, alright--but it's still wrong. 

>From "Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Tenth Edition" paperback
copyright 1993,

cannon n, pl cannons or cannon

Which makes it correct enough for me. 

> a spiel chucker 

This would be a german who throws games? Yes?

ObTrav is there an Office of Galanglic Compliance?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:08:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Semi-OT: Queen Elizabeth II's Golden Jubilee
Message-ID: <3C61D37F.ED449377@premier.net>

I just read the following article on National Review Online:

http://www.nationalreview.com/jos/jos020602.shtml

ObTrav: Parallels with Strephon's Golden Jubilee (in the GTU, since he
tragically never celebrated his Golden Jubilee in the Rebellion
timeline).

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:15:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <3C61C14B.53C80DD2@premier.net>
References: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206170940.02a041b0@mail.verizon.net>

Has anyone thought about doing ship design patterns similar to the concepts 
used in Christopher Alexander's "A Pattern Language"?  It seems like there 
must be some sort of common method of placing bridges, controls, etc. that 
could be described as a pattern (possibly varying from race to race).  Just 
some random thoughts.

Comments, spare change, appreciated.

Charles


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:56:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:56:09 +0800
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <000001c1aec2$91dc8000$6401a8c0@goca>
References: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207095007.00a09990@localhost>

I have a .txt version of the complete game on my computer.  (Not a computer 
game, just a transcription of the game into several .txt files).  I don't 
remember where I got it, but it must be available on the Net.  Maybe this 
is 
it?  <http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/gc00/reviews/warpwar.html>. 
It's quite complete for a "review."

Also, a search turned up this: 
<http://www.smith-house.org/boardgames/WarpWar1.html>.  Pretty nifty.

Personally, I always liked Winchell Chung's artwork for the game much more 
than the actual game itself.  His designs influenced a lot of my own.

-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rients)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:50:50 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10130466503c61dd7a42f3d@mail.isupportisp.com>

>From: "Robert Kondrk" <rkondrk@hotmail.com> 
>Hello Jeff, and welcome. :) 

>>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net> 
>>Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody have 
>>any advice to offer? 

>Before I can offer you any advice I need to know something. What's the 
>gaming experience/background of your players? Is it similar to yours? 

>Bob Kondrk 

Good question, Bob.  Here's my gaming crew in a nutshell.

Player 1: 15-20 years D&D, Palladium Fantasy.  MAY have played Traveller in the eighties, but he was also smoking a lot more weed then than he does now, so he doesn't quite remember whether he played it or not.  Maybe it will all come back to him when we start dicing up characters.  Served one term in the US Navy and pretty much hated it.

Player 2: One year with D&D 3rd edition.  Razor sharp mind for economics.  Master's degree in tax accountancy, currently in law school studying tax law.

Player 3: 10 years D&D, Hero System, Call of Cthulhu.  Knows a lot more about militaria and sci-fi than me.  Through careful planning and wicked manipulation of the magic rules, came very close to running roughshod over my last Greyhawk campaign.  (But it was a fun ride.)

Any idea what sort of damage these guys can do?

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 01:57:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F53GHVHYt2gYCL6ntBs000102c2@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     As promised last year (yikes), here's the final part of my fervid 
flight of fancy, the "Wounded Colossus".  I realized that I made a huge 
error in not posting this dreck all at once.  I had thought that by posting 
it in manageable bites all sorts of interesting threads would be spun off.  
Alas, that was not to be.
     This final part of WoCo will examine the pace and extensiveness of 
reform in the post-Assassination Third Imperium, Strephon's search for an 
Imperial Heir, Strephon's answer to the question of where he was during the 
Assassination, and a few odds and ends.


The Pace of Reform

     How quickly will the Strephonic Reforms take root within the Imperium 
and how extensive will they be?  The short answer remains, as always, it 
depends!
     You would have noticed that I divided the reforms into three major 
blocs, even though some of the details of each reform may have belonged to 
another.  One example would be the New Moots' oversight of the nobility, it 
is mentioned in under the reforms to the nobility and not with the political 
reforms.
     My dividing the reforms into these rough blocs did have follow a method 
of sorts.  The reforms are discussed in order of their acceptance; the 
reforms in communications will be easier than the political reforms, which 
will be easier in turn than the reforms to the nobility.
     The extensiveness of each bloc of reforms would follow this same 
heirarchy.  Jump6 communications would be seen Imperium-wide relatively 
quickly, followed by the set-up of the New Moots.  Some areas may choose not 
to take part in the New Moots program, but would still be tied into the 
jump6 x-boat net.  Finally, the reforms to the nobility would lag behind the 
other two, largely depending on how the local nobility views the Emperor's 
policies.  There could be areas in which the nobility fight or delay any 
reform to their powers as well as others that quickly accept Strephon's 
policies.
     One good rule of thumb would be to both accelerate the pace of the 
reforms and increase the area of their acceptance wherever the Imperium has 
had to recover it's territory.  With the damage done to the  institutions 
there, Strephon would have a free hand to appoint new, and more tractable, 
officials.
     Ironically enough, Ilelish, whose treason started this all, would be 
reformed more rapidly and more extensively than any other region of the 
Imperium.  Another area that would see great changes would be the Old 
Expanses.  Most of the Imperial nobility there surrendered to the Solomani 
and would have been purged, thus giving Strephon a clean slate on which 
work.
     Just as the Imperium is not a seamless monolith, the Strephonic Reforms 
will not applied as such.  There will be areas that, for reasons of politics 
or for cultural reasons, do not wish to participate.


The Imperial Heir

     Strephon is nearly 70 years old when he returns to the Throne.  He will 
have many immediate problems, but the one closest to him is also one of the 
most pressing.  He needs an Heir, a designated successor, and he needs one 
quickly.
     Strephon's father, Paulo, lived into his nineties, so the Emperor may 
have another two decades on the Throne.  The pressures of ruling the 
post-Assassination Imperium may shorten that however.  The line of 
succession to the Throne needs to be cleared up soon.
     There are several ways Strephon can go about finding an heir.  He could 
marry again and produce the Heir, he could simply designate one of his 
living relatives as the Heir, he could adopt a likely prospect as the Heir, 
or he could create the Heir by other means.  After looking at these options, 
I believe he has only one real choice, creating an Heir by other means.
     An Imperial marriage would kick off a round of infighting among the 
major families of the realm that neither Strephon or the Imperium can ill 
afford.  Each group would want the next Empress and next Heir to come from 
their bloodline.  The machinations, backbiting, and palace intrigues that an 
Imperial bridal hunt would engender could do nothin but harm to the Imperium 
at this stage.  A new Empress is not the answer.
     Adopting an Heir or designating a living relative as one would be 
equally risky.  Both would mean bringing an adult into the most private 
councils of the Imperium.  Whether Strephon and the Heir wished it or not, 
factions would develop overnight between those who believed themselves to be 
following one or the other.  Once again, the Imperial leadership would be 
seen as a bunch of squabbling ninnies, too busy fighting over their own 
perks and percieved slights to be bothered with saving the Imperium.
     While creating an Heir, via in vitro fertilization and whatever 
surrogates, human or mechanical, are available in the 57th century has it's 
own problems, they are least put off until the Heir comes of age.  We know 
that the necessary materials are at hand for such a project.  Indeed, the 
materials may be available in many parts of the Imperium.  Strephon was able 
to fashion Avery at Usdiki naming the late Iolanthe as his mother.  What's 
more, Margeret was able to bear twins in her faction capital and announce 
that Strephon was the father.
     The announcement of the birth of the Heir, perhaps a year after 
Strephon's return to the Throne, will be a cause for great rejoicing among 
the Imperial people.  The news that Strephon and the late Iolanthe again 
have a child will be seen fitting.  The people will know that, like them, 
the Emperor also has a hostage to the future.
     Whether the Wounded Colossus Heir will be male or female, enhanced, as 
Avery was, or not is entirely up to you.  In my notes long ago, I settled 
the problem of the Heir easily enough, but left the details deliberately 
murky.
     Two problems left for the future of the Wounded Colossus timeline will 
be the relationship between Strephon and the Heir and the possibility of a 
regent is Strephon dies early.  Both could work against Strephon's legacy.  
An embittered Heir may come to see Strephon's work as wrong and work to undo 
it even before taking the Throne.  A regent, holding the Throne for an 
infant Heir, could easily succumb to the lure of power.


Where were you, Strephon?

     Sooner or later, most like even before regaining the Throne, Strephon 
will need to explain why he wasn't in the Throne Room on the day of the 
Assassination.  This "explanation" will be tricky at best.
     Strephon and his adivsors are most definitely not going to reveal the 
existence of Longbow and the visions/signals recieved there.  They're asking 
the people of the Imperium to enter in upon a decades long struggle, 
revelaing that the apocalypse in due around 1200 won't help matters.  So, 
the explanation cannot even hint about Longbow.
     Yet, the reason Strephon was away must seem weighty enough.  Simply 
announcing that the Emperor had slipped off to bowl a few frames won't cut 
it.  The Emperor must be seen to be on the job at all times.
     I tentatively penciled in the Cymbeline chips as Strephon's excuse for 
his absence.  That was well before TNE used that same lifeform to destroy 
Traveller as we knew it, however.  I thought the "discovery" of a sentient 
artificial lifeform would be "weighty" enough to pass as a reasonable 
excuse.  Strephon would let it be known that he had been attending a 
conference regarding the sentience of the Cymbeline chips and leave it at 
that.
     Whether you use the Cymbeline excuse or not is up to you.  I'm sure any 
plausible story will fit into the setting; a secret weapons demonstration, 
sitting in judgement on a high peer, taking an emergency petition on a 
critical subject, a meeting insisted upon by an alien ambassador from one of 
the other Major Races, etc.  The plausible explanations easily made.


Strephon the man

     After posting the first part of the this flight of fancy, I was stunned 
to find that people were interested in Strephon as a person, particularily 
in his personality.
     The Strephon the public sees, and to the Emperor everyone is the 
public, may not be the actually Strephon.  The post-Assassination Strephon 
has become the Imperium's Marble Man.  He is the living embodiement of duty 
and honor.  He never shows any strong emotions, he never laughs, never 
smiles, never cries.  His always unfailingly polite, perfectly correct in 
behavior and actions.
     His eyes are his best weapons.  When someone complains about the burden 
they are asked to carry or the size of the problem they must tackle or the 
impossibility of the task they have been given, Strephon merely looks at 
them with a star that seems to bare their souls.  The pain, grief, and 
determination they show can overwhelm even those who work with him daily.  
He doesn't need to stare at anyone very often.
     The Imperial family's quarters in the Palace were destroyed along with 
the Ilelish Guard.  Lucan began a restoration during his brief Usurption, 
but Strephon has not bothered to complete it.  The other parts of the Palace 
damaged in the fighting have been long repaired and the Palace is still used 
for every purpose but one, Strephon no longer lives there.  He has taken 
over part of the IN command center below the Palace has his quarters.  
There, in a suite of a few small rooms, the Emperor leads a very monastic 
personal life.
     What does the Emperor do when he's alone?  Only his valet knows, and 
it's not talking.
     Of course, all of this could simply be the "spin" put out by the 
Emperor's PR men.  He could actually be slowly sliding down a path of 
madness, driven by his grief and anger.  After all, Strephon was Lucan's 
uncle...


     Well, folks, that all of it.  I do hope you use this to goose along you 
campaigns or maybe even kick off a few others.  As always, this material is 
placed by me, the chucklehead who dreamt it up, in the public domain.  Use 
it however you wish and have fun.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:33:06 +0000
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <F189aiywklYOMgviZQk0000e718@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     If I could ask one small boon from all of you interested in doing 
something "Wounded Colossus"?  Would you mind cleaning up all the spelling 
errors and grammatical gaffes?  That will make me seem less of a goon then I 
really am.
     Chalk it up to the vanity if a grey-headed fat man...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:06:06 +0000
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <F91JbrfBsYT6kYeJHyD0000ff18@hotmail.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800, "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

     "If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it
vailable on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author 
selects."


Sir,

     You have my permission to do whatever you wish with the Wounded 
Colossus material.  Actually, you never even needed that!  As Mr. Holmes 
pointed out, I have placed the entire mess in the public domain.
     I was puzzled, pleased, and embarrassed after reading all the WoCo 
inquiries today. (I've been away visiting one of the less savory portions of 
our weary world.)  Anyone who wishes to host, post, fold, spindle, or 
mutilate WoCo in any manner has my blessing.  I was very surprised that so 
many wanted to do it!
     If this little post isn't enough permission for your needs, please feel 
free to contact me off list with your needs.  I'll be happy to send along 
any "do whatever you want with it" messages you may need.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:17:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:17:16 +0000
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
Message-ID: <F35ywPCf0TYdahn9Lmn0001046c@hotmail.com>

From: hal@buffnet.net

     "Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have 
to exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm 
going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and 
missions for me..."


Hal,

     Very good list.  Sure we could add more missions, but pre-existing 
hulls types could handle the new jobs.  I'd warrant that only a few ship 
classes would be desinged with only a single mission in mind, i.e. battle 
riders.  Most ships will have a primary mission and a whole raft of 
secondary missions on their plate.  Over time, those mission assignments 
will change as the percieved threat does.
     I also like your emphasis on "mission" rather than "size".  I've seen 
far too many lists with entries like "capital ship = 250K dT" on them.  
Exactly what type of ship a ship is thought of will depend far more upon 
it's mission than it's size.  The tonnage for a capital ship at TL13 will be 
far different from that at TL15, but the job will be the same.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:22:58 +0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
Message-ID: <F106Sl1q4gtopWd7KKQ00010117@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

Jeff Yin wrote:  Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard 
ships engaged in fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is 
somewhat sluggish even for a single large ship, to say nothing
of a BatRon.

     You could try Power Projection (formerly Traveller  Full  Thrust)
from BITS.  This is Full Trust rules for cruiser level combat.


Mr. Trevor,

     That is a nice set of rules.  May I suggest another?
     IIRC, the TNE Battle Rider game had a method for "collapsing" HG2 stats 
into a few factors on a playing chit.  Seeing as you could, theorectically, 
collapse any HG2 design in this manner, you wouldn't limited by size as 
Power Projection is.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:01:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020206175654.00a8ce58@mail.peak.org>

Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:

>Hmmm...must be kinda like telling the difference between Al Gore and the
>Unibomber...
>
>At 11:26 AM 2/6/2002 +1100, Michael Barry wrote:
> >John
> >Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the
> >difference.
> >MB
> >
> >**********
> >From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
> >
> >I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
> >National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
> >John Scarlett-

Thank you, Mark.  I intended to write something much more deliberately
offensive in response.  As a Life Member of the NRA, I found Micheal Barry's
comment *extremely* insulting and just hope that I have the opportunity to
return the favor at some point in the future. :^(


         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:01:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:01:51 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Warpwar
Message-ID: <17e.32fb21b.2993481f@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/5/02 3:23:29 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com 
writes:

> Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
>product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
>joy to play.

 Not quite. While Steve *worked* for the company that produced Warpwar 
(Metagaming), he did not design it or ever publish it himself.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:24:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>

Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:45:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 04:45:47 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202070438270.4387-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Loren writes:
>>I happen to think you made a serious mistake in going with the "when the
>>Marines arrive the game is over" paradigm. To me that means that they
>>are more or less useless to me as a GM tool.
>
>In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions.

Can't blame poor Doug for that, then (Sorry, Doug). I'll blame you
instead, Loren.

 ;-)

As for the size of Marine regiments and the discrepancy in numbers when
compared to FFW, Chris Thrash has managed to convince me that the force
levels in FFW are supposed to be taken literally, but I still think they
are too low (if for no other reason than because they fail to take
population multipliers into account), so having ten (or whatever) times as
many marines is not really a problem.


 Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:49:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:49:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
>actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> I know they had support from locals and other people,
>but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.
...
>That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm wondering if we made the
>list of countries that support terrorism?

  At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.

  OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|

  ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:47:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:47:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F60a6rbmNmgHvnRQguk00001663@hotmail.com>

> >>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>Good question, Bob.  Here's my gaming crew in a nutshell.

<snip>

>Any idea what sort of damage these guys can do?

<chuckle> Well...if they're anything like the guys that I used to GM back in 
high school and college, quite a lot!

Seriously though, here's what I'd recommend:

Given Player #1's antipathy towards the military experience, I'd stay away 
from a merc based game.  Also, given player #2's background, I'd also stay 
away from a mercantile game, since he'd tend to get a little frustrated by 
subtle inconstancies in the game's economic system.  Based on your 
description, #3 might tend to be bit on the "rules lawyer/munchkin" side at 
times.  You might think that it's a bit risky, but I'd respond to an RL by 
keeping the ruleset very vague at first and concentrate more on developing 
lush scenes and rich plot.  Also, resist the tendency for some players to 
leave their characters a mere "cardboard cutouts".  Three of my old players 
tended toward RL/munchkinism, and I had some success combating it by drawing 
them out and encouraging more character detailing.  If an "RL/M" sees their 
character as more than a tool to "win" the game with, it's my opinion that 
they'll stop trying to challenge you and be less inclined to try breaking 
the ruleset.

I'd suggest running a initial scenario that is "quest-like" in its structure 
and goals, to ease the transition somewhat.  Let the plot unfold slowly at 
first, and introduce little tidbits of the ruleset as needed.  Make the 
object of the quest something not overly technological (like a missing 
person, for instance), so that game doesn't get slowed down in explaining 
things.  Keep the first scenario of the campaign short, and make each 
successive one longer and more convoluted as the campaign goes on and the 
experience of your players increases.

I hope that you find some of these suggestions helpful.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 03:59:59 +0000
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup [long]
Message-ID: <F146jDbl2ZL7QRPA8Ka0001031d@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>

     "Guys, this is my take on the Rebellion, all the way to the Collapse.  
There are two versions, one covers an era where Strephon lives, and the 
other where, well, he doesn't."


Mr. Yin,

     I eagerly printed out* both your posts and read them!  Woo-Hoo! Bravo! 
Author! Author!  Superb stuff!  A tip of the battered boater to you, sir!
     Your fine work is now permanently enscounced upon my hard drives, it's 
definitely a keeper!  I especially like the twist of Strephon trying to 
focus on Dulinor while the Imperium unravels behind him.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - I'm enough of a fogey to prefer reading large amounts of text on paper 
as opposed to a monitor.  This means I'll be left further and further behind 
as humanity marches on. (sigh)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:04:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:04:36 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <F91RrLnGXdK04Vjqnlg000100cc@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported 
terrorism."

     "OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any
meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|  "

     "ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?"


Mr. Hudson,

     Jeepers, Star Dreck's "Prime Directive" is starting to look better and 
better.  It's a shame we don't have a parsec or two to put between us and 
the nasties, huh?  8^)

     ObUSA: Any wonder why there has always been a strong isolationist 
streak in US foreign policy?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:11:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:11:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <F106Sl1q4gtopWd7KKQ00010117@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C61FE5F.7040005@yarranet.net.au>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     That is a nice set of rules.  May I suggest another?
>     IIRC, the TNE Battle Rider game had a method for "collapsing" HG2 
> stats into a few factors on a playing chit.  Seeing as you could, 
> theorectically, collapse any HG2 design in this manner, you wouldn't 
> limited by size as Power Projection is.


I loved the idea and put all the HG ships onto index cards but then discovered that 
the game didn't end up playing as well as I thought it would after reading it.

The problem I had with BR were that, because it ignored all but critical hits, 
smaller ships or ships with a lower TL couldn't really affect the opponents capital 
ships at all.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:34:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <F189aiywklYOMgviZQk0000e718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1af90$c25cd620$2f7de40c@loki>

I have a clean copy at the address below. Will be adding the latest
piece of the great saga as I get a chance.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:24:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:24:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
Message-ID: <F207STkYwhgGxg72r3g000003a3@hotmail.com>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

IMTU I disallow them.  I strip out the first two orbits to reflect planets 
consumed during the star's red giant stage, and regenerate any other 
terrestrial planets in the system as per Book 6 "outer zone" parameters.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:48:09 EST
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>

<trentfs@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>
>Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
>MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
>week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
>MT).)

[Barry Ween] OH yeah. [/Barry Ween]

 During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that while 
real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS of 
power on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than compensated 
by the addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of TNE, 
ships still need fuel, but for different things.

 As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its (J+1)x5% 
instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:45:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:45:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207095007.00a09990@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c1af81$7dad0ea0$6401a8c0@goca>

I never liked the default map for Warpwar, so I used the huge one that
came with StarForce.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Kronick
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 17:56
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] WarpWar

I have a .txt version of the complete game on my computer.  (Not a
computer 
game, just a transcription of the game into several .txt files).  I
don't 
remember where I got it, but it must be available on the Net.  Maybe
this 
is 
it?  <http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/gc00/reviews/warpwar.html>. 
It's quite complete for a "review."

Also, a search turned up this: 
<http://www.smith-house.org/boardgames/WarpWar1.html>.  Pretty nifty.

Personally, I always liked Winchell Chung's artwork for the game much
more 
than the actual game itself.  His designs influenced a lot of my own.

-- Rachel Kronick




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 05:14:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:14:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <006101c1af96$54381000$6501a8c0@home.com>

>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported
terrorism.

Yes, one person's terrorist is another's revolutionary. Or reporter, as the
case may be (http://allafrica.com/stories/200111260824.html).

>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

Of course, the 3I probably sets the definition.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 05:44:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:44:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <20020206215942.35117.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200202070544.g175iap14171@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/06/02 at 01:59 PM,  Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com> said:

>> IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
>> copy in high
>> school.  Wish I still had it....

>Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
>Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.

Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
company he founded later.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:09:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 06:09:52 +0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
Message-ID: <F755h8lbC10wVa7fIwD00007d4e@hotmail.com>

From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au>

     "The problem I had with BR were that, because it ignored all but
critical hits, smaller ships or ships with a lower TL couldn't really affect 
the opponents capital ships at all."


Mr. Webb,

     Drat and double drat!  Nothing but crits on the damage tables?  That's 
taking streamlining a wee bit too far.  Any thoughts on another damage 
system for BR?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:25:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:25:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
References: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206222320.029ac840@mail.verizon.net>

We sweat a lot.

And lie.

A lot.

And mention some Artifact of the Ancients.

Or Grandfather.

Then we lie some more.

;-)

At 10:24 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:29:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:29:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: military vision
Message-ID: <200202070627.g176RlU00455@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Subject: Re: TML Digest V2002 #130 
...
>>  Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
>>  militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
>>  have been interesting to see.
>
>"Where is the prince, who can afford so to cover his land with troops for its 
>defense, that a body of 10,000 men descending from the coulds could not cause 
>a great deal of mischief before a force could be assembled to repel them."
>          Benjamin Franklin, 1784, predicts airmobile forces (my paraphrase)

  I talked to a fellow who spent much of the `90's in certain
European archives, looking at the documents for various ancien
regime militaries. Apparently they got lots of helpful ideas for
things resembling tanks, machine-guns, etc., and the main reason
for turning them down usually amounted to "neat idea, and we might
even be able to afford to buy several, but how can we keep them 
effectively deployed?"

  Not a popular reality in some SF/fantasy circles, I suppose,
but there it is.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <000001c1afa6$ff4e2d70$2f7de40c@loki>

Henry J. Lickspittle
Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire

Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position considered necessary at
soonest expediency. Have well-built aspiration to depart this hackneyed
dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are of utmost
plasticity. I await you munificent proffer of employment at the
foundation of mechanical staircase three.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:29:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:29:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part 3
References: <F755h8lbC10wVa7fIwD00007d4e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE73IgUg6rLwrX45NBI00008009@hotmail.com>

Here is part 3, for those who might be following this.  As always, special
thanks to Bruce Johnson, Rupert Boleyn, and Larsen Whipsnade.  Though of
course, special thanks implies a kind of ordinary gratitude to the rest of
list, naturally. . .

By 1120, Strephon's campaign against Dulinor began to meet with real
successes.  Though his initial advance was slowed through the
resource-deprived sections of Zarushagar, Dulinor was unwilling to use the
same tactics in Ilelish itself.  Aided by a few timely defections, the
Imperial fleet cut deep into the sector, reaching Ilelish subsector.  There,
Imperial forces amassed preparing for a campaign reminiscent of the Terran
invasion.

 From Dlan, Dulinor continued to broadcast defiant messages vowing to fight
to the last.  These had all been pre-recorded, the real Dulinor and the
remaining Ilelish fleet still answerable to him retreating into the Verge
sector.  The Archduke's assets had suffered terribly over the last four
years.  Finally, as Strephon reached Ilelish sector itself, several
opportunistic nobles proclaimed the Imperial fleet as liberators, and were
only too happy to show their loyalty by turning against Dulinor.  Using the
time Dlan's resistance purchased, Dulinor intended to draw a new fleet from
the Verge reserve squadrons.  This new force might be able to catch the
Imperial fleet off guard.  With luck, he might even get a chance to engage
Strephon himself.

 As Brzk finished mobilization, Imperial fleets squared off with the Vilani
in Spinward Lishun.  The engagements were small and sporadic.  Brzk's
attempts to draw the Vilani into a decisive engagement proved fruitless.
Carefully orchestrated deep penetration raids, flanking maneuvers, and
retreats kept Vland's fleets always out of reach.  With Corridor's 7 fleets
supporting Ishuggi, Brzk requested reinforcements before a drive towards
Vland itself.  Gushemege and Dagudashaag were each tapped for several
fleets, but local nobles stalled and vacillated while claiming their
compliance.  Strephon was known to refer to these two sectors as "Kentucky
and Missouri," though nobody understood the reference.  For Ishuggi's part,
a Dulinor victory (unlikely as it increasingly seemed) would permit a new
Ziru Sirka, while if Strephon emerged triumphant, the Vilani Archduke could
meekly slip back into the Imperial fold.  In either case, he saw little
reason to move his fleets to the Spinward front.

 The departure of Corridor fleet prompted panic among the local nobility.
The reserve fleets, if acting in coordination, were more than capable of
protecting the sector from the obsolete and poorly led Vargr vessels.
Unfortunately, the local nobles kept the reserve fleets roped around their
own specific fiefs, surrendering the sector to the corsair.  Small islands
of civilization remained where the reserve fleets stayed, or where the local
world's planetary navy proved strong enough to defend the system.  The Vargr
were quick enough to take advantage of this arrangement, pillaging the
undefended worlds and bickering amongst themselves over the spoils.

 In the Spinward Marches, the situation became increasingly grim.  The fall
of Rhylanor in mid 1120 allowed Zhodani forces to catch and destroy several
Corridor fleets early in the next year.  The remaining forces from Corridor,
deviating from their original course, would not enter the field of combat
until mid 1121.  Meanwhile, the drive to liberate Efate met with staunch
resistance from Zhodani colonial squadrons.  Regina subsector was the
setting of several major engagements, most inconclusive.  As 1120 became
1121, Zhodani forces remained in control of Efate and Allel, but for the
most part had been forced back to Jewell subsector.  The brightest news from
1120 in the Marches came from the heroic Imperial 208th fleet, which moved
up from the five sisters to liberate the Darrian's and force Sword World
forces back to defend their homeworlds.

 1120 also saw a general increase in the intensity of Solomani attacks.
Confederation estimates predicted an end to the Ilelish affair by the
closing weeks of 1122 at the latest.  Motivated by this projection, Confed
planners hoped to push up to rimward Diaspora.  This would allow the
Solomani to offer a peace treaty that ceded the coreward sections of the
Solomani Rim back to the Imperium, but would have a prewar net affect of as
many as 8 subsectors for the Confederation.  Adair continued to offer a
staunch resistance, and with the Vegan enclave for support, looked unlikely
to fold in the near future.  A plan was then developed to encircle the Vegan
Autonomous Region, bypassing the Solomani Rim front by pouring in through
the Old Expanses.  Though promising on paper, the concept ran afoul of
several Imperial squadrons still operating in the area.  Solomani hopes were
shattered when the Imperium won a crushing victory at Nicosia/Old Expanses,
capturing the naval base with the aid of ingenious irregular personnel (read
PCs) and catching the emerging Confederate fleets off guard.  Nicosia's
significance as a 57th century Cannae was not lost on hopeful Imperials,
sparking a wave of patriotism.  Coreward nobles began resisting the
Confederation, petitioning aid from the then unengaged fleets in Delphi.
However, without Duchess Margaret, the response was scattered and varied.
Some fleets crossed the border, a few even going as far as engaging the
Solomani.  Most, however, chose to sit and wait.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:27:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:27:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup [long]
References: <F146jDbl2ZL7QRPA8Ka0001031d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE39rQ9CjdW3lxEc6fQ00007fcc@hotmail.com>

Thanks Larsen.  Your WoCo thread actually inspired me to give a try linking
the previous Rebellion discussions.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:39:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:39:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <B8876F39.23B76%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
location.  Please feel free to comment.

see: http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/aiming.html

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 08:36:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:36:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
References: <F60a6rbmNmgHvnRQguk00001663@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE53MEn94zlsdNwNZB3000061d0@hotmail.com>

Yeah, Bob's (I can call you Bob, can't I) advice is really quite sound.  I
remember introducing a group to Traveller by having one of their passengers
end up being noble born.  His family were all on the line White Fawn, which
was destroyed by nefarious means.  Each game focused drew the players deeper
into the Traveller universe as they dealt with finding this child back.  At
first, once they figured out they had a noble, greed was their primary
motivation.  Still, by the end they had become somewhat protective of the
little tyke.  Anyway, I meant to chime in by suggesting that you make sure
all the loose threads link to elements of the Traveller setting (or what
elements you will use to create your universe) that way they have to learn
the setting to deal with it.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:26:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
In-Reply-To: <000001c1afa6$ff4e2d70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>

My apologies for taking up bandwidth with an off-topic request but you
are a very knowledgeable and connected crowd.

I am looking for the source code for an ANSI text game called Tele
Arena.  Specifically version 5.6d.  This is for the sysop of The Keep
BBS, based in Portland, Or.  (telnet://thekeep.net)

The sysop has legally purchased the software (currently running) and
paid extra for exclusive rights for source code (which was never
delivered as promised).  Since then, Sean Ferrel, the author of this
game, has dropped out of sight and removed his website.

I am asking for any help, be it the source code itself, a link to it,
information on its whereabouts, a lead, etc.

Thank you all for your valuable time.

Jory

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:49:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:49:01 -0000
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
References: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c1afb4$918b8ae0$bcd1883e@fabian>

From: <GypsyComet@aol.com>

>  During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that
while
> real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS
of
> power on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than
compensated
> by the addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of
TNE,
> ships still need fuel, but for different things.
>
>  As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its
(J+1)x5%
> instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

TNE used the same formula as MT then. Personally, I prefer that formula to
a flat 10J%/parsec. More advanced drives should be more efficient.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:19:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
In-Reply-To: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <000201c1afb8$84d8f9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

Coincidence or illuminati hint.
404 hits at Google
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Tele+Arena+Source+5.6d
most of 'em looking for the source




for them that haven't cared HTTP 404 is file not found.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:41:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:58 +1300
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D56@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> > FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
> > actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> >  I know they had support from locals and other people,
> > but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Then the New Zealanders there almost outnumbered you !
And the British SAS had quite a few people there too.

There may have been only 100-150 combat soldiers actually
fighting on the ground, but they wouldn't have been there without
the several thousand sitting off the coast in carrier groups or
the thousand-odd holding and operating the airfield.

Heck, there were more than 150 US troops guarding a few Al
Quaeida fighters in Cuba.

> That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm
> wondering if we made the list of countries that
> support terrorism?

The US was put on _that_ list years, if not centuries, ago.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206170940.02a041b0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Charles McKnight wrote :

> Has anyone thought about doing ship design patterns
> similar to the concepts used in Christopher
> Alexander's "A Pattern Language"?  It seems like there
> must be some sort of common method of placing bridges,
> controls, etc. that  could be described as a pattern
> (possibly varying from race to race).  Just some random
> thoughts.

It's an obvious idea, but I suspect most Traveller ship designers
are gearheads and engineers at heart, and something as fuzzy as a
pattern is not really acceptable to them.

Remember most building architects think Alexander is a loonie,
it's only software designers that are really keen on him.

If you have read Alexander's original works, you realize his
architectural patterns are not as sharply defined as software
patterns are.

Part of the reason for this is that software patterns commonly
have only one or two optimum implementations in any particular
language. Architectural patterns, and presumably, ship design
patterns could be implemented in a huge variety of ways, so only
really describe general trends.

Pattern concepts however, been used in the design of the modular
cutter, and in the Naval Architects handbook for T4, even if the
writers dod know they were doing it ! <grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:26:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:26:37 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]> <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the 
> character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because, 
> since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other 
> character types add it to their concepts.

That makes me more convinced than ever that we have irreconcilable
differences in play styles.  I come up with the concept *before*
looking at the rules.  If the concept wasn't for a Trader, then I
won't add the skill just because it looks cheap.

Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.  Even
in Basic set you would expect such a character to have Administration,
Merchant, Area Knowledge (several) and at least one shipboard skill.
There is no need for 3 *more* skills that basically just split up
Merchant and dilute points further.


> I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are 
> mostly things that don't appear in a game

They appear in *my* games.  For my GURPS Space game, I have a job
table extrapolated from real census data.  This is quite useful for
generating NPCs.  Since I have already done the work, I can tell you
that in 2001 Australia, 83% of jobs are in GURPS terms primarily
covered by IQ-based skills.  This is not likely to decrease in the
future; quite the opposite in my opinion.


> We are also getting beyond the scope of a game that seeks to mostly
> model PCs.

We are not getting beyond the scope of a game that seeks to be generic
and universal, particularly using the same rules for NPCs as for PCs.


>  The fact is that I don't think it unlikely that most doctors have
> above average IQ and most marines have above average DX.

I would agree that doctors would have above-average IQ in GURPS terms.
After all, you need to pass years of exams and competition with other
prospective entrants just to get into medical school, let alone pass!
Those who have average intelligence or less would almost never make
it.

I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
or not.

>> So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as
>> exceptional conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the
>> other hand are ubiquitous.
>
> I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a
> standard bonus.

I was referring to sourcebooks, not the basic rules.  Even then, the
aiming 'bonus' is nearly always teamed up with a very substantial
penalty due to range.  Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case,
since if you don't aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!  There are
also about 20 other penalties, at least a few of which apply in any
given situation.  I've previously posted much about this particular
bit of brokenness to rec.games.frp.gurps, such as the fact that going
by the modifiers in GURPS ranged combat, I must have a base skill of
about 26 in throwing rocks and hence a DX of well over 20.

To look at a sourcebook, for example Vehicles (the closest sourcebook
I have handy).  I'll start working through the 'vehicle action' rules.
Let's see: the first 10 pages of that section have 1 skill bonus (for
neural interface systems, which I'm sure you'd agree is an exceptional
condition) and 43 penalties, many of them cumulative!

(plus many tens of default penalties that I'm not counting,
e.g. Piloting Ultralight / Glider / Light Airplane / Heavy Airplane /
Helicopter / Autogyro specialisations as separate skills.  So how does
a friend of mine know how to fly them all well enough to instruct in
any of them?  100 years worth of training?  He's only 45!)

I've been in a situation where GURPS would have me make a driving
control roll at -9!  Based on my estimated DX and a maximum
corresponding driving skill, the GURPS result would be that the car
would almost certainly vault into the air for 5-30 metres and land on
a random orientation.  As it happened, I was able to recover control,
to which GURPS assigns a 0.5% chance.  This is simply due to the fact
that penalties in GURPS *far* outweigh bonuses.  In fact, there were a
number of factors in my favour which the sourcebook completely
ignores.  I don't have a skill of 20.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:56:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:56:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020207215658.C22381@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> We don't really know what industrial base is required to efficiently
> produce TL 12 goods, but if one TL 12 pop-A world can't manage it,
> three (Trin, Vincennes, and Mora) probably can't either, and trade
> from the central imperium is very limited.

I'm not so sure about that last statement.  The main body of the
Imperium has an equivalent WTN of about 8.7 as far as I can tell, and
an average distance of about 65 parsecs from Trin (about as far as you
can get and still be within the Imperium :)

With Trin's 6.5 WTN, that makes BTN about 11.7, for about a TCr per
year worth of trade.  That's without taking into account the trade
bonus between In and Ni worlds or the fact that 65 is really close to
the bottom end of the scale for the distance modifier.  I suspect the
total core trade would actually be more than BTN 12 and hence total
about 2-3 TCr.

Still a really tiny fraction of its GWP (<1%), but at least comparable
with its trade within the Spinward Marches and Deneb!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 12:02:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 04:02:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <000001c1af81$7dad0ea0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <20020207120225.26399.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com>

<sigh>...all this talk of WarpWar and Star
Force...I've gone all nostalgic for high
school...thanks for the link to the WarpWar page...now
if I can find somebody to play it with at work...the
return of Pocket Games (whee!)


=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 12:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:43:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>

Mr Whipsnade's comments in Wounded Colossus about the prospects of an
imperial regency reminded me of something that I was thinking about last
week.

Empress Margaret I was four when she succeeded Zhakirov.  Clearly there was
a regency.  Who was the regent?

There is an obvious candidate:  Antiama!

Have you ever wondered why the Sollies get so excited about her?  A *Vilani*
ruled the Imperium for about 15 years!

This isn't canon, of course, but it's a logical progression from it, don't
you think?

I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really interesting.
One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra/Zhakirov stuff
in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be ignored, but that
can mostly be dealt with by the "subjective viewpoint" excuse and a damp
sponge.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:42:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:42:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F37zsLqIfQdmEB4HGXA000151ae@hotmail.com>

>From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
>Yeah, Bob's (I can call you Bob, can't I) advice is really quite sound.

Thanks for the complement, and *please* call me Bob.  I don't really like 
"Robert" or "Rob" very much.

>Anyway, I meant to chime in by suggesting that you make sure
>all the loose threads link to elements of the Traveller setting (or what
>elements you will use to create your universe) that way they have to learn
>the setting to deal with it.

That's a good point too.  One other thing I'd like to suggest (that I only 
recently realized was missing in my own games all these years thanks to a 
well-designed character info sheet that Tod Glenn had me fill out for my 
character in his PBeM) is to make sure that you encourage each of your 
players not only to develop their character's backgrounds, but also to 
*specifically* establish their short-term and long-term goals (something 
more meaningful than "I want to become rich and powerful", BTW).  Take those 
goals, and subtly weave them into your plot.  That way, you'll keep your 
players interested, and it'll help to prevent your campaign from fizzling 
out down the road.  I used to glean my PCs goals from gameplay interaction 
and each character's background, but in retrospect I don't think doing it 
that way was very effective.


Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:30:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:30:21 -500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020205083636.006e0e58@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <200202071455.g17EtQN24546@sun.ebtech.net>

I agree with Douglas.
The marines in FFW are raiders not ground pounders.
What the game needs is a rule for knocking out undefended bases 
so you load up your regiments on J6 cruisers and go looking for 
some bases to kill with a 0 iniative admiral.

The marines are super constabulary in peacetime and raiders in 
war they do not appear to be used as strikers and are a waste on 
garrison except as embassy guards.  Cadre is the mission of the 
Sylean Rangers.

I always though it was odd that the reinforcements in FFW did not 
include ANY interface troops marine or army.   Makes it harder to 
retake a world.

FFW version 2 anyone?


> At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
> >little bit of support.
> >
> >Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine
> >regiment at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more
> >if you think their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat
> >than a standard TTL15 infantryman).
> 
> OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish
> paen to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that
> armies work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.
> 
> As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
> justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use
> in combat.
> 
> Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
> units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
> strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
> trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed
> and ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be
> reckoned with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't
> toe to toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines
> are hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum
> disruption.  In fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in
> company sized forces raiding the rear areas!
> 
> You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!
> 
> The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
> canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
> JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
> with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
> with TO&Es for half the night.  (The bagpipes were his idea, mostly.  You
> ever hear "Scotland the Brave" played by a drunken Marine at 0200?  My
> neighbors have!) --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:24:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:24:46 -500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C604E34.4080205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <200202071449.g17EnpN23232@sun.ebtech.net>

I would assume F14 rather than F18 due to range considerations.
I wondered why the raids often consisted of only 10 planes then 
found information that that was how many F14's were available for 
strike missions.  I believe the F18 does not have the range to hit 
targets in Northern Afghanistan.

> Of course, overwhelming air superiority never hurt.
> 
> "Uhh 'Stennis'? There's an arty position right here" paints with laser
> designator "that's giving us a hassle. Could you take care of it please?"
> 
> (wait 1/2 hour)
> 
> Screeeee--BOOOOOM! as a F18 drops a 2000lb bomb down arty's muzzle.
> 
> "Thanks Stennis!"
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:41:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:41:55 -500
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <200202071507.g17F79N26864@sun.ebtech.net>


Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the 
atmosphere?
When I used JTAS#10's table I got 1 off planet army for both Mora 
and Trin (and only by fudging a bit) which is what the counter mix 
gives them in colonial armies.  This makes it hard for Mora to affect 
Trin since the other TL15 worlds have small armies and the other 
high pop worlds have lower TL's.

> >The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming
> >that there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix
> >in 5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
> 
> According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
> of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
> field armies of 250,000 men each.
> 
> >A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
> >defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the
> >advantage shifts.
> 
> The source quoted above makes it 100 field armies. The same 50,000
> battalions, in fact (but only because the populations are the same).
> 
> Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
> have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
> missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
> battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
> 2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
> census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
> 45,000 battalions...
> 
> I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
> billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

Say like the FUZION System?

If so, any hints or tips?

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:08:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 08:08:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202071607.g17G7IU08518@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:04:36 +0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>     "ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?"
...
>     Jeepers, Star Dreck's "Prime Directive" is starting to look better and 
>better.  It's a shame we don't have a parsec or two to put between us and 
>the nasties, huh?  8^)

  What - and get closer to the K'kree & Kafer?!

>     ObUSA: Any wonder why there has always been a strong isolationist 
>streak in US foreign policy?

  Because the New Englanders were getting tired of grabbing their
ankles whenever the expansionists were given their heads?

  How many border regions of the 3I can share *that* sentiment? :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 15:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <F134vPeSHvnNFmXNZ6000000df4@hotmail.com>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
>location.  Please feel free to comment.

I think it's a *great* idea that could add a lot of drama and color to 
combat, and brings to CT something I really like from the GURPS mechanics.  
I also think that not applying damage multipliers and special effects by 
location to the PCs is a good thing, since in my opinion combat is already 
deadly enough in CT.  However, I don't think it's a good idea to just apply 
them to NPCs either, for fear of upsetting game balance.  Overall, I really 
like this and intend to give it a try it the next time I GM.

Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:09:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 08:09:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202071607.g17G7bU08603@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>The US was put on _that_ list years, if not centuries, ago.
...
 " >At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism."

  OK, *almost* everyone, but you might not be so smug if livestock could
lodge complaints at The Hague. 

  ObTrav: "If we can prove that it's sentient, then the ISPCA won't 
have a case, your Lordship!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:54:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:54:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <F132fMCa3Eky00sp0yx00000fd6@hotmail.com>

>From: Gonzalez <doctor_romulus@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
>Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:03:16 -0800 (PST)
>
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

Back in '91 I ran a short Traveller campaign using AD&D mechanics that 
seemed to work fairly well.  I might have some of the old game data left 
around somewhere if anyone is interested.

>Say like the FUZION System?

I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that system 
like?

Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:28:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:28:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> 
>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
> 
>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
> fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|

Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government 
by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first 
place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)

The US certainly did not recognize them.

That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
combatants'...


>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

Yeppers! That's why they have sacraficial goats, err, PC's to do that 
kind of stuff ;-)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:05:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com> <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3C62B3C4.434DE609@sitraka.com>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
> so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
> really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really interesting.

I think my fave non-documented period has to be -2280 to -2200, the
beginning of the Rule of Man... the only downer is being stuck at
TTL 12 or so for all the equipment. No lasers. :(

Mad props to Don McKinney's Integrated Traveller Timeline for letting 
me get Trav dates while at work!

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:18:10 +0000
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
Message-ID: <F44l69IzjcIVP7moZUT0001279e@hotmail.com>

From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>

     "<sigh>...all this talk of WarpWar and Star Force...I've gone all 
nostalgic for high school...thanks for the link to the WarpWar page...now if 
I can find somebody to play it with at work...the return of Pocket Games 
(whee!)"


Mr. McGeehan,

     WarpWar is/was a great little game, just ditch the original map.
     There are three homes systems for each player, but they don't have warp 
lines between them.  Crossing one hex of empty space takes an entire turn.  
So, once you take one of your opponent's home systems, you and he will spend 
lots of turns doing nothing but moving one hex at a time between warp line 
networks.  Factor in the TL progression (IIRC, one level every 3 turns) and 
any forces you send across the gaps between warp line networks turn into 
pumpkins before you can use them.
     Taking a single home system can be done, but finishing him off can take 
quite a bit of time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:06:27 +0000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F230pqa9TC04yuWNWBg00013bd4@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Empress Margaret I was four when she succeeded Zhakirov.  Clearly 
there was a regency.  Who was the regent?"

     "There is an obvious candidate:  Antiama!"


Mr. Bradley,

     Zhakirov's wife!  Beautiful solution, sir.  She would be the obvious 
choice.  Which of the Louis had his mother as regent for a while, was it the 
Sun King?

     "This isn't canon, of course, but it's a logical progression from it, 
don't you think?"

     Why can't it be canon?  You're right, post-Civil War would be a great 
setting.  It's a shame that T5 seems to be aimed at M:200 and T20 at M:1000.

     "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra & 
Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be 
ignored,..."

     Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of the 
OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:53:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
In-Reply-To: <3C62B3C4.434DE609@sitraka.com>
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207124408.00a94990@mail.charter.net>

That Period is also a lot of fun, since the Terran military is spread sooo 
thin, small teams of relatively junior officers and NCOs can get away 
sooooo much.

"Hmm...It Ensign LeBlanc is in charge the High Port here."
"Blinky LeBlanc, wasn't he that completely clueless frosh back in our 
senior year at the Academy?"
"It appears so.  We could paint "Hancock's Smuggling Company" above our 
docking port and he wouldn't notice."
"And to think I was upset when dad banned me from the family business and 
railroaded me into the Navy."

Great place for merchant campaigns.  Think Reconstruction Carpetbagger....

At 12:05 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Alan Bradley wrote:
> >
> > I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
> > so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
> > really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really 
> interesting.
>
>I think my fave non-documented period has to be -2280 to -2200, the
>beginning of the Rule of Man... the only downer is being stuck at
>TTL 12 or so for all the equipment. No lasers. :(
>
>Mad props to Don McKinney's Integrated Traveller Timeline for letting
>me get Trav dates while at work!
>
>Ethan

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:22:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202070544.g175iap14171@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C62B7D0.2000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> On 02/06/02 at 01:59 PM,  Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com> said:
> 
> 
>>>IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
>>>copy in high
>>>school.  Wish I still had it....
>>>
> 
>>Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
>>Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.
>>
> 
> Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
> He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
> company he founded later.

Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and 
that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I 
spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later 
Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:03:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <200202071507.g17F79N26864@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207095914.009eda60@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 AM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the
>atmosphere?

Good point!  That does cut down on the raw number of BEs.

>When I used JTAS#10's table I got 1 off planet army for both Mora
>and Trin (and only by fudging a bit) which is what the counter mix
>gives them in colonial armies.  This makes it hard for Mora to affect
>Trin since the other TL15 worlds have small armies and the other
>high pop worlds have lower TL's.

It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army, 
and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the 
planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's 
planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or 
organized for off-planet movement.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:00:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:00:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013104854.113.ajackson@ping>

Gonzalez writes:
> Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
> systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.
> 
> Say like the FUZION System?

Shrug.  It should work, the only real trick is giving stats to equipment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:12:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100914.009f0b20@mindspring.com>

At 07:03 AM 2/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

I've used Greg Porter's CORPS to great effect.

>Say like the FUZION System?

Speak not that name!  Icky poo!

>If so, any hints or tips?

I'm not sure what you want here...  all I can say is you need to endeavor 
to keep the flavor of Traveller as much as possible.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:05:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
References: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100434.009f6ab0@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


I change the stellar type, unless I'm trying to make a deliberately strange 
system.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>
>I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro
adventure "The Imperial
>Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 Reprint, but I'm planning on using
only the core rules >(Books 1-3).  I intend to use these materials to launch
a new campaign in the next couple of
>weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would
anybody have any advice to
> offer?
>
>For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of Cthulhu
and several other non-
>sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for generic advice for new GMs.  I'm
hoping for some pointers
>specific to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.

Excellent, on-topic, request.  Someone assign him a newbie topic and a
number, and we'll get back to him.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEINCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>
>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
>in the canon?

"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
war subjects.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] lock blade knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>
>ps on the subject of knives, what happens when the local Law says that you
>cannot carry any 'locking' blade because - when it was written - the only
>locking blades were flick knives and bali-song.  Then your pc's show up
with
>the Impie version of a Leatherman...

"That? No, that's not a lock-blade knife.  It's just a solid piece of bonded
superdense steel and a power pack.  When I turn it on, the molecules realign
themselves to form a point and an edge, and to increase hardness
substantially.  It's perfectly legal here, really."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?

To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:26:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207130228.00a69f80@mail.charter.net>

At 10:28 AM 2/7/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>>fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government by 
>two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first place), our 
>staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
>The US certainly did not recognize them.
>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...
>>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?
>Yeppers! That's why they have sacraficial goats, err, PC's to do that kind 
>of stuff ;-)

If captured, the Duke will deny all knowledge of you.
So don't get caught...unless you like Sword World Military Prisons...


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Capital punishment turns the state
into a murderer.  But imprisonment
turns the state into a
gay dungeon-master." - Emo Philips
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:26:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:26:34 -0600
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEINCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C62D4EA.3F836F64@premier.net>



"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> >From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
> >
> >Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
> >in the canon?
> 
> "The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
> that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
> full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
> war subjects.

On that subject, does anyone have the Sunbeard Declaration archived and
available for repost?

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:19:33 EST
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <5a.6317259.29942d45@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 07:50:01 GMT Standard Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
> location.  Please feel free to comment.
> 
> see: http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/aiming.html
> 
> Tod
> 

Excellent, I've been looking for a set of hit location rules for some time 
and these are close to being ideal.

I think I'd make some changes for personal use though, mainly because I don't 
like "general" as a hit location. Here goes:

1. Use "skull" instead of "general" in the Head hit locations.

2. Add "wrist" to the Arm hit locations to get rid of "reroll"

3. Move "organs" from "upper torso" to "lower torso". Most (if not all - you 
could argue about the liver) of those listed are actually situated in what I 
would call the lower torso. Add "ribs" and expand "lungs" to include a left 
and right; replace the general with "muscle" (which is just as vague but 
sounds better IMHO).

4. Lower Torso - See (3), "organs" would slot in where "general" is now.

5. Legs - drop one "thigh" hit and add "ankle".

6. Organs - replace the "general" with "bladder".

Personally I would include variation in damage based on location, but 
probably tied in with blood loss and a more complex damage system, I'm 
interested in that sort of thing so it's not a criticism of this piece of 
work :). 

On a slight aside I remember reading an article on the distribution across 
"hit locations" of combat injuries in US troops during the Vietnam war. What 
was interesting to note is that the distribution was fairly equal across all 
areas of the body. Unfortunately all I remember about the source is that it 
was a huge text book on ICU medicine chained to the desk of a unit I used to 
work in about six years ago :( 

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:29:44 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
Message-ID: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 19:01:27 GMT Standard Time, 
gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:


> >That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
> >working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
> >available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
> >along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
> >target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?
> 
> To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill 
> you."
> 
> --Glenn
> 

Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US) 
over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?

"I was cleaning it and it went off..."

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:43:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
Message-ID: <memo.655032@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>
Greetings dear hearts.

If you know the former website at which it appeared, try the Wayback 
machine - http://www.archive.org/ - to see if they have a copy thereof.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:51:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:51:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207144831.00a7d340@mail.charter.net>

At 02:29 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 07/02/02 19:01:27 GMT Standard Time,
>gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:
> > >That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
> > >working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
> > >available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
> > >along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
> > >target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?
> > To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> > remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> > pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill
> > you."
> > --Glenn
>
>Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US)
>over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?
>
>"I was cleaning it and it went off..."

A lot of suicides are listed as 'accidents', a) to save the family 
"embarrassment" and 2) Insurance purposes.

Just like were they find the body halfway in an gas oven with pilot light 
turned off, it's called an 'oven cleaning' accident.


-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 20:56:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:56:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>

The news that morning sure told a whopper.  Not surprising, considering:
(1) Very few reporters have a grasp of the basics in military affairs, even
when it's their beat;
(2) The Pentagon is eager to keep the lid on this news as much as possible,
and;
(3) The military in general wants people to believe they have mysterious,
wizard-like abilities.

For starters, the US Marine reinforced battalion that's on the ground is
about five times the number of troops in that morning news report.  The
number of special operations type troops might be in line with the report,
but I am taking a wild guess and estimating it at more like 250 to 350.
That's not counting the CIA types who have acted as cowboy irregulars.

Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Still, the original point is very true that very elite units with
relatively small logistical tails can have combat power usually only found
in units composed of many more personnel.

ObTrav:  How much easier is it for those in power in the Imperium to
control and manipulate the reports the general public sees about military
affairs?  And other matters of Imperium security.  There are much tighter
choke points for controlling the movement of people and information between
planets than we have choke points between countries on contemporary Terra.
And how much easier is it for the line to blur between what is of personal
importance to the people doing the controlling and what is genuinely a
security matter (given that the Imperium is a government of men, not laws)?
 Just because the Baron doesn't want it in the press that his personal
residence includes a huge outdoor zoo and quarters for his 800 personal
household servants doesn't mean it deserves to be censored as a military
secret.

--Laning

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:58:39 -0800 (PST), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
>
>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
>actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> I know they had support from locals and other people,
>but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 21:32:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:32:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020207213440.LHKZ319.dorsey@link>

This is exactly the kind of computer-aided gaming that almost no one takes
advantage of and we should all try to get more use out of.  Wouldn't it be
nice if every rule book came with a CD?  Or one-shot password for DLing
software, whatever.

Oh.  I'm no alpha geek, but I used to have a very sweet spreadsheet that
did almost exactly this.  It took a lot more man-hours than you might
expect to get all the details perfect.  I did give a copy to a friend,
after locking most of the cells to prevent him from accidentally destroying
it.  The next step was to create a separate data entry form, but that was
much simpler.  Sadly, that hard drive blew up.  :-<

--Laning
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."  -Steve Wozniak
traveller geek code:  tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+
ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:00:49 -0000, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
>
>Some brave soul could
>concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:
>
>Choose a tech level
>[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]
>Choose a displacement
>Specify a jump limit
>Specify a G rating
>Specify a % armour volume
>Specify a % weapon system volume
>...
>Specify a % etc systems
>
>And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
>simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
>for the gearhead brigade?
>
>Con: We need an alpha geek to volunteer to make this sucker.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 21:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:48:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207164812.00af6eb8@mail.charter.net>

Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?

At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:04:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:04:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <20020207.140422.-161705.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Dear Mr. Lickspttle,

In regards to your request and excellent resume, I can unburden you from
your hackneyed dirt-ball existence to a long wondrous career exploring
the galaxy, fending off evil, and basking in glorious ports-o-call with
wine, women, and song.

Just enlist, the General's looking for a few good men.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800 "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> Henry J. Lickspittle
> Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire
> 
> Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position considered necessary 
> at soonest expediency. Have well-built aspiration to depart this 
> hackneyed
> dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are of utmost
> plasticity. I await you munificent proffer of employment at the
> foundation of mechanical staircase three.
> 
> 
Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:02:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:02:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5a.6317259.29942d45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8883958.23CF3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 11:19 AM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> Excellent, I've been looking for a set of hit location rules for some time
> and these are close to being ideal.
> 
> I think I'd make some changes for personal use though, mainly because I don't
> like "general" as a hit location. Here goes:
> 
> 1. Use "skull" instead of "general" in the Head hit locations.

Good idea.  I used general meaning any part of the head not listed
specifically.

> 
> 2. Add "wrist" to the Arm hit locations to get rid of "reroll"

Sounds good

> 
> 3. Move "organs" from "upper torso" to "lower torso". Most (if not all - you
> could argue about the liver) of those listed are actually situated in what I
> would call the lower torso. Add "ribs" and expand "lungs" to include a left
> and right; replace the general with "muscle" (which is just as vague but
> sounds better IMHO).

I should have added a definition here.  Upper torso is the are from the tops
of the shoulder to the waist. Notice the difference in hit probabilities.
The upper torso as defined above has more frontal area, and is more likely
to be hit by random fire.
> 
> 4. Lower Torso - See (3), "organs" would slot in where "general" is now.

General again represent a strike to a non specific area.
> 
> 5. Legs - drop one "thigh" hit and add "ankle".

The thigh has quite a bit more frontal area that the lower leg, hence the
rational.

> 
> 6. Organs - replace the "general" with "bladder".

errr.. painful.  Sounds good

> 
> Personally I would include variation in damage based on location, but
> probably tied in with blood loss and a more complex damage system, I'm
> interested in that sort of thing so it's not a criticism of this piece of
> work :). 

I originally used that.  It became quite complex, and with Traveller
players, too lethal.  Combat is already deadly enough IMHO.
> 
> On a slight aside I remember reading an article on the distribution across
> "hit locations" of combat injuries in US troops during the Vietnam war. What
> was interesting to note is that the distribution was fairly equal across all
> areas of the body. Unfortunately all I remember about the source is that it
> was a huge text book on ICU medicine chained to the desk of a unit I used to
> work in about six years ago :(


Yeah.  Computer modeling by the NIJ using computer man showed hit
distribution was related to frontal area, with a slight skew favoring the
chest.  This was probably do to the short ranges simulated with the center
of mass being the aiming point.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:30:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207163205.01ea34e0@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I don't have my copy of FF&S yet, but it should be possible to create a 
>system based on the retail pricing model.

More or less, and that's where I was going with the trivial design 
system.  Since there seems to be an audience for it, I'm already working on 
a new revision.  This would have considerably more "smarts" behind it - 
what I posted earlier should be considered a "zeroth draft" or "trial balloon".

I think the next version is going to be laid out along the following lines:

1  Payload and Engineering Space

1.1  Payload

This would use the payload table as presented earlier:
TL    9    9
Jump  J-0  J-1
M-0   90%  xx%
M-1   xx%
etc.

1.2  Modify Payload (optional)

Payload modifiers could be presented for TL, mission, and other factors 
(such as fuel purification or not).

Role      Payload
Civilian  ---
Military  +x%
Spartan   +x%

Armor       Payload
Unarmored   +5%
Light       ---
Moderate    -2%
Heavy       -5%

        Building TL
Base   TL-10  TL-11  TL-12 ...
TL-9   +x%    +x%
TL-11  +x%
etc.

1.3  Compute Engineering and Payload

Multiply hull size by payload percentage.  This is payload in 
dtons.  Subtract payload from hull size; remainder is engineering space in 
dtons.

2  Systems

2.1  Bridge

Install bridge (includes sensors, computers, commo, etc) from chart.

2.2  Weapons (optional)

Select and install weapons from the tables.  Turret and Barbette weapons 
would be organized as battery size (that is, number of turrets in the 
battery) by TL.  Number in the body of the chart is the total volume of the 
battery.

Laser Turrets
Battery Size:  1  2  3  4  5
         TL-9   xx xx xx xx
         TL-10  xx xx xx
         TL-11  xx
         etc.

Bays would be listed by weapon type and TL; the number in the body of the 
chart is the number of dtons required for one weapon system.

             TL-9  TL-10
Meson Bay   xx    xx
PA-Gun Bay  xx
Laser Bay

Spinal mounts are probably best handled by having the designer allocate an 
arbitrary amount of tonnage, with some minimum that is larger than the 
largest bay weapon (1000 dtons?).

2.3  Hangars (optional)

Allocate a fixed amount of tonnage to hangars and grapples.  Maximum amount 
of craft that can be packed in is 1/2 to 1/4th the hangar volume.  Grapples 
use volume 1.5 times that of the carried craft.

2.4  Cargo (optional)

Allocate a fixed amount of tonnage to cargo

2.5  Passengers (optional)

Decide on a number of passengers carried.  Table shows dtons required.

Number Carried   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  20  30  40  50
High             6  10 14 ...
Middle           2  4  6
Low              3  4  5

(note that table includes computation of required number of stewards and 
medics, including the quarters required for these crewmembers)

3  Details (optional)

In this step, compute design details that may or may not be needed.

3.1  Crew

Compute the number of crew carried by the vessel.  Quarters for crew (at 
appropriate comfort level for the ship's role) are already figured into the 
tables - this step is purely for informational purposes.

Ship Size   Minimum Crew
100 or less 1
101-400     2
401-700     3
701-1000    4
1001 and up 6

Additional Crew
1 additional crewmember per xx dtons of engineering space.
x additional crew per xx dtons of weapons
1 steward per 8 high passengers (or fraction thereof)
1 medic per 120 passengers (any type) or per 20 low berth passengers.

3.2  Price

The base cost of the ship is MCr xx per dton of engineering space.
Additional costs are MCr xx per dton of weapons

3.3  Fuel

10% of volume per parsec of jump.
x

5  Evaluation

Rules that determine how to rate the design under the various Traveller 
rules.  Tables would give corresponding game values for terms such as 
"Lightly Armored" or "TL-14, 10-mount, Laser Barbette Battery".

5.1  Book 2
5.2  High Guard
5.3  MegaTraveller
5.4  T:TNE
5.5  T4
5.6  GURPS Traveller


What do you folks think of this outline?


>All costs are the percentage of hull space used.
>
>Fixed Cost:
>    System     TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
>    Civ        ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
>    BasMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
>    AdvMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

Unfortunately, the "Fixed" costs can't be expressed in terms of a 
percentage of the hull used - they really are fixed, in that they're always 
the same number of dtons, regardless of how large (or small) the ship is.

>Variable Cost (Size): This includes such things as crew quarters, life
>support, and possibly weapon "hardpoints"

It's POSSIBLE to fold crew quarters computations into the payload 
percentages, since the main things that drives crew requirements are the 
weapons fit and the size of the drives.  The crew responsible for the 
weapons can be folded into the values on the weapons tables.

This has the drawback that, while you know that enough staterooms have been 
provided for the crew, the design system won't tell you how many 
crewmembers that is.  At least in one of my games, that's a critical piece 
of information to know ... SO, I've added the (optional) step of figuring 
out how many crew there are.

>Variable Cost (Drives):
>This is the same (or similar) to the table posted earlier.  This includes 
>the Jump Drive, Maneuver Drive, and Power Plant (and fuel?)

Yes.  The table I posed earlier includes the hull and all hull systems 
(contragravity, life support, drives, power plant, jump fuel, and power 
plant fuel).

>If no one takes this on, I'll attempt it when I get FF&S.  That is, unless 
>everyone agrees that it would be totally useless.

I'm already working on something close; hopefully I'll get a chance to 
finish it off and post it over the weekend.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:45:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:45:54 +1300
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <20020206080349.A18558@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <3C63BA72.28141.8BE30B@localhost>

On 6 Feb 2002, at 8:03, Timothy Little wrote:

> The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
> water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
> slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.
> 
> I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
> demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
> horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
> I didn't.

AFAIK most people are slightly boyant in fresh water if they inhale, and about 
the same density or a more if they exhale. The less fat you have the denser 
you'll be, and that 'float horizontally' bit is going to be crap for anyone who 
doesn't have _lots_ of fat on their legs, simply because legs have lots of bone 
and little fat (and no air) in them.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pat Connaughton)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:49:00 -0800
Subject: [TML]
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207144831.00a7d340@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <006301c1b03a$684c30e0$a64cfea9@swbell.net>

unsubscribe tml    


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:55:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:55:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Simple Design Systems
In-Reply-To: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207173848.01e90f98@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:
> > I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives enough
> > detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.
>
>I'm a little confused by this. Why couldn't you use WarpWar ship designs to
>draw deck plans? I could. Even the minimum rating of tonnage should give
>enough of an idea to draw deckplans.

The WarpWar system doesn't even give tonnage - it gives "Build Points", 
which are rough measures of resources required (in other words, BP are more 
or less equivalent to cost in MCr).  SO, the design system tells you that 
you'd designed a MCr 40 ship that made J-1, M-1, and had a cargo bay, 
carried passengers, and a grapple for holding a non-starship.

This is approximately the level of detail you get out of WarpWar.  Yes, I 
can draw deck plans that are not inconsistent with this data; so can you 
... but my ship may be a 500 dton subsidized merchant, and yours might be 
for a 200 dton yacht; clearly not the same ship.  IMHO, the results of a 
WarpWar "design" are barely even a mission statement for a proposed 
design.  This is rather like the various "rules of thumb" that exist in 
most industries: given a rough idea of the mission, you can estimate the 
likely cost of something to within an order or magnitude or so.

For drawing deck plans, here's what I want from the craft's designer:
- size (dtons) of power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and fuel.
- size (and number) of bridge and other controls
- size (dtons) of cargo bay
- number, type, and sizes of any carried craft
- number and sizes of passenger and crew quarters
- overall size and general shape of the hull

The first two are so that I can draw the bridge and engineering spaces; 
most attempts to capture or control the ship will center around these areas 
(so IMHO these are the most likely to be used as combat or miniatures 
settings).  The third, fourth, and fifth help in figuring out the overall 
layout of the ship - flow of cargo and passengers between the hold, 
staterooms, and keeping passengers out of both the crew spaces and the 
cargo.  The last is helpful in visualizing the exterior look of the ship 
(and in general, if I'm not provided with an external view of the ship, 
I'll create one as part of the deck plan process).

Admittedly, if I am the designer, the design system does not have to 
produce all of these values.  However, if the design is to be accurately 
communicated, the designer must decide these values and indicate them on 
the design one way or another - so why not have the design system produce them?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:51:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:51:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US)
>over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?

I learned from playtesting and playing Aftermath lo these many years ago
that the .22LR bullet is the most common bullet found in the United States.
For this reason, it is the bullet involved in most firearm accidents here.

The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:11:32 +1300
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
In-Reply-To: <F53GHVHYt2gYCL6ntBs000102c2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C63C074.21964.A35A40@localhost>

FWIW, the complete thing can be found at this URL: 
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rboleyn/downloads/index.html


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:13:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>
Greetings dear hearts.

Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control 
communications & reporting...

... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and Argentina had a 
vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK forces were 
outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy 
vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them, 
free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy about. Other 
stuff just, um, got lost.

In 1990, when everyone was squaring up again in the Persian Gulf, I rang 
the Ministry of Defence Press Office to ask about what controls they would 
be exerting. They claimed they'd just be 'asking' journalists to sit on 
sensitive items.

Goes back a fair old way. In the Second World War, military censors 
actually physically damaged photographic negatives, causing the loss of 
much information of historical significance. Grrr.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:07:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:07:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:39:38 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Aiming and hit location
>
> I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining
> hit location.  Please feel free to comment.


Might I suggest a slightly different hit location chart. This is the
one I'm using for my own revamp of Striker damage. In most instances
it should save you a roll. 

     1             2            3            4       5       6
1 L Hand       L Shoulder   L Head           As      As      As
2 L Wrist      L Upper Arm  L Neck           Column  Column  Column 
3 L Forearm    L Elbow      L Upper Chest    3       2       1
4 L Lower Leg  L Hip        L Lower Chest    except  except  except
5 L Ankle      L Upper Leg  L Upper Abdomen  R       R       R
6 L Foot       L Knee       L Lower Abdomen

Enjoy

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:19:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:19:28 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1b02e$0012c9a0$8eb18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra &
> Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be
> ignored,..."
>
>      Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of the
> OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)

Well, I must flee off to work before I'm late, so I can't go into details
until tonight.

I did however make one terrible oversight in not checking GT: Rim of Fire
before sending my previous post.  Most of my quibbles have already been
fixed there, and Antiama was part of a "regency council".  So it is actually
canon.

The council thing isn't quite how I had been looking at things, but it is
still possible for Antiama to have been "Empress Regent" in this context.
She was still "Empress" in the sense that the Queen Mother in the UK is
still "Queen".  She could still be the most powerful member of the council,
even though Rim of Fire says that she doesn't control it.  It's not
surprising she doesn't "control" it - it no doubt contains some of the
Solomani yahoos who are chucking fits over a "Vilani Empress"!

IMTU, the real limit on her power was the factionalisation between the
Solomani (Arbellatra) and Vilani (Zhakirov) factions, rather than the rather
theoretical council stuff.  She _was_ Empress, in all but name.

A proper historical analogue might be the ancient Egyptian regent,
Hatshepsut.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:13:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:13:54 +1300
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C63C102.26031.A585E5@localhost>

On 6 Feb 2002, at 23:48, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 
> >
> >Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
> >MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
> >week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
> >MT).)
> 
> [Barry Ween] OH yeah. [/Barry Ween]
> 
>  During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that while
> real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS of power
> on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than compensated by the
> addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of TNE, ships still
> need fuel, but for different things.
> 
>  As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its (J+1)x5%
> instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

Arrgh. FFS1 uses the MT formula too.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:08:10 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Navy Ship hulls and missions
Message-ID: <bd.1b97da62.299470ea@aol.com>


Hal wrote:

 >Hello Folks,
 > Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
 >exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
 >going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
 >missions for me...

 >1) capital ships: dreadnaught for fleet killing missions
 >2) Capital ships: cruisers for showing the flag and being able to survive
in the battle line
 >3) fighter carriers: mobile fighter bases
 >4) escort carriers: smaller mobile fighter bases

Note that the above categories can be subdivided further -- Light Carriers
(CVL), Battlecruisers (BC), Strike Cruisers, Monitors, Escort Cruisers,
Utility Carriers, etc.  Don't forget Battle Tenders/Riders.
 
 >5) troop carriers
 >6) ammunition transports
 >7) refueling ships
 >8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes

To repair ships could be added Salvage Ships; perhaps spidery open frame
hulls that grapple crippled hulks and jump out-system with them.

 >9) Hospital ships
 >10) picket ships
 >11) sensor ships
 >12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)
 >13) Destroyers: warships designed to deal with commerce raiders and
 >pirates

If Fighters are a menace to capital ships in YTU, a variant of destroyer
could exist as a fighter-killer, (i.e. the old Torpedo-Gunboats and later
Torpedo-boat Destroyers).

 >14) Commerce raiders

"Under Ten Transponders"  :>

 >15) Survey ships
 >16) patrol ships

Patrol ships could be subdivided into Frigates, Corvettes, Sloops, Escort
Destroyers, Cutters(?), maybe others.

 >17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)

Food and spare parts were carried on "Stores Ships"

 >18) communications dispatch ships

Given the sort of 18/19th century analog in Traveller communications, I
think "despatch vessel" does sound better than "courier."

How about:

Training Ships (might include sensor tracking ships)

Trials Ships (test out experimental weapons/sensors/drives/hull forms)

Yachts (for those noble admirals; how about the Imperial yacht "Sylea")

Electronic Warfare Ships (a bigger EA-6B)

Berthing Hulks (also come in training & prison varieties; built for the
purpose barges fit in here as well)

Missile Recovery Ships (for training exercises, if missiles are large &
expensive in your TU)

Ferries & Cargo Ships

Navigational/Sensor Buoy Tenders

Gunboats/Missile Boats/SDBs

Command Ships & Intelligence gatherers were mentioned in John Groth's
post (good choices).

Zero-G Drydocks?

Tenders/Depot Ships

Merchant Aircraft Carriers & Armed Merchant Cruisers???  If merchant hulls
get big enough in YTU, maybe.

Q-Ships???

Planetary Bombardment Vessels

And some small craft:

Gigs, Tugs, Lighters (fuel, water, nuclear waste, etc.), Shuttles,
Service/Maintenance Craft, Personnel Transports, Search & Rescue,
Lifeboats, Fighters, gotta have fighters.

Ludowick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:36:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
 >> From: CHam628781@aol.com
 >>
 >> Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in
 >> the US) over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?
 >>
 >
 > I learned from playtesting and playing Aftermath lo these many years ago
 > that the .22LR bullet is the most common bullet found in the United
 > States. For this reason, it is the bullet involved in most firearm
 > accidents here.
 >
 > The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
 > choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the 
wherewithal
 > to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them
 > somewhere -- and they will bring down at least small game, as well
 > as offer some protecting from your most dangerous natural enemy,
 > other people.

The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!

Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
loads...jam city.

Percussion caps for black powder arms are easier to make than 
primers...there used to be, and may still be for all I know, a kit that 
let you make percussion caps from aluminum cans and childrens paper caps.

Dunno what's in those paper caps, but that's a low tech device for sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 00:56:37  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <DNJIONMFKOOFFBAA@angelfire.com>

I've got the synergy system that Blue Planet V2 uses and it might work but I've never really had time to do anything wth it. And, for that matter, all the systems you mentioned are perfectly good for the job. That said, I'd be interested to see what people come up with.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 01:52:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:52:15 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Sheesh
Message-ID: <30.21e798b2.2994894f@aol.com>

>>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

Do what TNE did: abolish the Class VI and D stars from the *Primary* table. 
Dwarf stars can still be companions, but the Class VI "subdwarf" turned out 
to be MUCH less common in reality than when Book 6 was written.

 Basically, if you find a listing (or are rolling your own) and a Class VI or 
D comes up as the primary star, read that as a Class V (Main Sequence). If 
you've already put a (theoretically) habitable world in system and the star 
is an 'M', automatically make the sub-digit a zero.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 02:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:38:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 3:36 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
> reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!

But .22s are cheap, and reloading doesn't really help all that much.  Brass
cases have a limited lifespan.  They can only be reloaded a few times before
they start to crack.  You are not going to draw your own cases.

In contrast, a lot of .22 lr ammunition can be bought for not much money.  I
have bought it for as little as $100 for 5000 rounds.  That is a lot of
shooting.  I typically have 10-20,000 rounds laying around the garage.

Add a suppressor and your really in good shape.  You can hunt game or
enemies without ever being noticed.

> 
> Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
> the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
> components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
> undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
> loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
> loads...jam city.

Semiautos weren't really practical until the advent of smokeless powder.
Fouling was the main problem.

For a survivalist, you'd be better off with a big bore airgun.  No black
powder, no flints, no big cloud of smoke when you fire.  Not a lot of noise.
Just a lead bullet required.  There will be a lot of old batteries to
scavenge.  Sure, hand pumping these beasties is tedious, but you can get
10-20 shots per charge, and reloading is on par with a bolt action rifle.
There are several makers who offer them in calibers up to .50

See, for example http://ns.connext.net/~daq/index.html

Note the Bandit. The Bandit is a .50 cal. (.495) precharge 3000 p.s.i.
rifle. The ball weighs 180 grains, goes 790 f.p.s. and produces 250 ft.-lbs.
All for under $500.
> 
> Percussion caps for black powder arms are easier to make than
> primers...there used to be, and may still be for all I know, a kit that
> let you make percussion caps from aluminum cans and childrens paper caps.
> 
> Dunno what's in those paper caps, but that's a low tech device for sure.

As long as you have a good supply of caps

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:16:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:16:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>
>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>
Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
soldiers train in seamanship.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:11:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents
Message-ID: <200202080309.g1839sU02778@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
...
>     Zhakirov's wife!  Beautiful solution, sir.  She would be the obvious 
>choice.  Which of the Louis had his mother as regent for a while, was it the 
>Sun King?

  Yes - a regency under a foreign princess & her consort. And there
was endemic civil disorder at the time, too (all IIRC).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202080318.g183IwU04449@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>So don't get caught...unless you like Sword World Military Prisons...

  So what - you have to break the ice on your weekly bath.

OTOH, it's _Darrian_ society that's partly descended from ... Turks :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:20:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202080318.g183IrU04437@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>> fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government 
>by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first 
>place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
                        ^^^^^

  We do need a font to indicate biting sarcasm / cynicism, don't we? :)

>The US certainly did not recognize them.

  De jure, no. In practice, many states did.

>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...

  Which is certainly sheer genius - after all the Taliban can't hurt
you any more, if they ever could.

ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it? :|


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:00:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:00:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>

At 10:16 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>>
>>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>>
>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
>soldiers train in seamanship.

Hello Terry,
  In response to your question, page 6 of MEGATRAVELLER'S FIGHTING SHIPS,
you will find under AssaultRon: Comprised of troop transports and
supporting ships.  Capable of carrying hundreds of battalions of invading
troops.

I guess that makes it canon...

             Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:44:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:44:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6349BA.E6434845@together.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
> > He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
> > company he founded later.
> 
> Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and
> that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I
> spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later
> Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...
> 

	How soon they forget...

	Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
(which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
sitting on my gaming shelf). 
	Steve, branching out, designs Melee, a man to man combat game (which I
have a copy of on my gaming shelf). And then an expansion set called
Wizard which adds spell casting to the combat game (which I have a copy
of on my gaming shelf). These two microgames form the basis of The
Fantasy Trip, an early RPG. 

	The truly scary part is how little has changed between Melee/Wizard and
GURPS of today. Strength, Dexterity, and IQ are the stats, weapon use,
damage, armor effects are all the same. Even the spell names haven't
changed. Everyone who complains about what a hideous overweight mass
GURPS has become, well I still remember back when the whole system was
described in 2 21 page 4" x 7" booklets. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:39:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #134
Message-ID: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>

>   I talked to a fellow who spent much of the `90's in certain
>  European archives, looking at the documents for various ancien
>  regime militaries. Apparently they got lots of helpful ideas for
>  things resembling tanks, machine-guns, etc., and the main reason
>  for turning them down usually amounted to "neat idea, and we might
>  even be able to afford to buy several, but how can we keep them 
>  effectively deployed?"
>  
>    Not a popular reality in some SF/fantasy circles, I suppose,
>  but there it is.

Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they go 
as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 

Not all the ideas are that far out, and there are often one or two good ones 
among the chaff, but still  . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:22:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:22:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <B8889299.23DCE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 3:07 PM, David Shayne at daveshayne@ameritech.net wrote:

> 1             2            3            4       5       6
> 1 L Hand       L Shoulder   L Head           As      As      As
> 2 L Wrist      L Upper Arm  L Neck           Column  Column  Column
> 3 L Forearm    L Elbow      L Upper Chest    3       2       1
> 4 L Lower Leg  L Hip        L Lower Chest    except  except  except
> 5 L Ankle      L Upper Leg  L Upper Abdomen  R       R       R
> 6 L Foot       L Knee       L Lower Abdomen


I looked at the probabilities, and noticed some differences.  To whit, your
distribution looks like this:

Head            11.1%    Head  11.1%
R Arm           16.7%
L Arm           16.7%    Arms  33.3%
Upper Torso     16.7%
Lower Torso     11.1%    Torso 27.8%
L Leg           13.9%
R Leg           13.9%    Legs  27.8%

I used my definition of general locations to get a more appropriate
comparison.

Compare to mine:

Head            5.6%    Head    5.6%
Right Arm       11.1%
Left Arm        11.1%   Arms    22.2%
Upper Torso     27.8%
Lower Torso     16.7%   Torso   44.4%
Right Leg       13.9%
Left Leg        13.9%   Legs    25.6%

Note that on your table, the arms have the highest probability of being hit,
torso and legs are about equal.  There is a 1 in 10 chance of a head strike.

I selected the system I did to: 1 make use of standard CT rolling
conventions.  And 2, to approximate hit distributions that related to
frontal area.  But hey, whatever works.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:53:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207231158.02292140@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>What I had in mind was more simple statements along the lines of "Basic 
>bridge includes Radio [...] with ranges not in actual distances or hex 
>amounts but broad MT-style range bands

Actually, T4 uses a vaguely-similar classification of range bands (although 
with different names and breakdowns), so QSDS sensors are already rated 
this way (although numerically, instead of with words - it's more compact, 
and it's a lot easier to remember that 8 is bigger than 7 than it is to 
recall if "planetary" is farther or shorter than "orbital".  :-)

I think I have a good solution for this, though: instead of putting the 
rating into the table at all, I'll have a separate section (almost an 
appendix) to provide rating numbers for each specific rules set.  The 
design sequence will simply list between three and six options (basic, 
standard, advanced, scout, small military, and large military come to 
mind).  This way you can come do the design without worrying about it, and 
come up with gaming stats for any incarnation of the Traveller rules.

>Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & MT? IIRC the 
>standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a week

Yes; HG fuel load-outs were good for a month.  In MT, the fuel consumption 
of power plants was increased drastically, which made it very difficult to 
design warships.  T:TNE and T4 reduced the power plant fuel back to 
something approaching sanity.

>I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer to 
>(and be limited by) entries on a table.

I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if they 
did, they may not have one handy when doing ship designs, so the design 
sequences were written to be do-able with nothing but a pencil and paper.

Nowadays (at least for me), it's a very rare circumstance when I don't have 
at least a basic 4-function calculator within reach - and most of the time, 
I have something in my pocket that is considerably more powerful than a CT 
era (late-1970's) minicomputer.  So is it reasonable to write a design 
sequence that simply assumes that a 4-function pocket calculator is 
available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250 times 
2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?

The "conventional wisdom" is that the design sequence should be kept to 
addition and subtraction, plus "simple" multiplication and division 
(multiplication by single-digit or "easy" factors of 2, 5, and 10).  This 
sort of logic is one of the reason behind all of the tables in QSDS - that 
it is a lot easier to look up a value on a table and add it to a running 
total than it is to multiply two three or four digit numbers.

>A propos of which, this system seems more versatile to me than QSDS -- 
>QSDS gives specific detail on a narrow range of ships, whereas this system 
>gives more vague detail on a broader range of ships.

That's partly a function of the vagueness; I make no guarantees about ships 
over 5000 tons or so (or rather, you can construct them, but as you scale, 
you will probably run into issues).  The system as presented is flat-out 
wrong for ships below a certain minimum size (which is dependent on TL).  I 
think I can improve this in the next iteration, but it'll still be a pretty 
bad approximation when you get towards the ends of the spectrum.

>We know the size of the ship and the rough tonnage amount taken up by 
>various component groups, everything else just becomes map-drawer prerogative

It sounds to me like you prefer to do a lot of your "designing" at the 
deckplan stage.  I think I explained in the other message what I like to 
see going into the deckplans.  Also, my deckplan designing was heavily 
influenced by Azhanti High Lightning (where each chair on the bridge is 
associated with a specific position and function), so I like to have 
details down to the level of "that box is the fuel purifier, and that chair 
is the weapons officer's station".

>Sure we won't be able to put an accurate label on every piece of equipment 
>(i.e. this half-square of machinery on the bridge represents fire control 
>for missile battery 3)

There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the PC's 
want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so they can 
steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector of 
fire ...

>And for that 5-10% where I DO want more detail/accuracy in the deckplans, 
>I probably would've built those ships using a more detailed design system 
>anyway.

And here is where we need to do some planning ahead.  As things stand now, 
the only systems where you can do this are TrivShips/QSDS, SSDS, 
FF&S*.  Book 2 and Book 5 are close enough that you can use the ships in 
the same universe without problems ...  The trick will be selecting the 
design systems that you use (or being OK with the fact that knowledge about 
how the PC's ship is constructed does not transfer to the other ships in 
the universe).

* Sort-of.  QSDS and SSDS are based on a "FF&S 1.5" - Dave and I agreed on 
a set of changes from FF&S1, but FF&S2 had not yet been written when QSDS 
and SSDS were created.  In general, we didn't break anything too badly ... 
but there are some changes.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:03:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:03:08 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
Message-ID: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>

> Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>  the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Something I learned while working on the Gulf War Factbook and slightly after 
was that the "military beat" is considered one of the least prestigeous jobs 
and anybody assigned to it tries to get out as soon as possible. Evidently 
showing too much familiarity with military affairs is (or was, anyway) a 
career killer.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:07:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100914.009f0b20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAECBCHAA.redroach@pobox.com>

I use Fuzion to run 2300 AD and such.
More than willing to help convert.
Fuzion works WELL with Traveller, considering the Task system

TV

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:12 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?


At 07:03 AM 2/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

I've used Greg Porter's CORPS to great effect.

>Say like the FUZION System?

Speak not that name!  Icky poo!

>If so, any hints or tips?

I'm not sure what you want here...  all I can say is you need to endeavor 
to keep the flavor of Traveller as much as possible.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:51:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:51:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
In-Reply-To: <20020207.140422.-161705.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1b05c$3c9322c0$2f7de40c@loki>

General Turokan,

Proviso you comprise a situation for this splintered aged carcass at
that moment all the superior. Can we be departed by subsequent twoday?
Now I wait at top of mobile rising room seven.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:56:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>

LKW speaks of the military beat and its desirability when the Gulf War
Factbook was being developed to which:

Yet still look at how many of today's top dogs pounded that beat. Look
also at the cultures relationship with its military across time. These
perceptions are fickle. If Afghanistan is any example (and note here I
do not watch television so cannot comment on that reportage) the
military beat today is a talk to a local that was there kind of gig.

I entered the service at the base of its post Vietnam decline and left
after the 'evil empire' had collapsed and we were done on the ground in
Iraq. Did I see a range of our cultures relationship with its military
over those years?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:50:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C63671D.D8783A39@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:22:50 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location

<snip>

> I looked at the probabilities, and noticed some differences.  

<snip>

> I selected the system I did to: 1 make use of standard CT rolling
> conventions.  And 2, to approximate hit distributions that related to
> frontal area.  But hey, whatever works.

And I selected the system I did to: 1, make use of a standard CT rolling 
convention, and 2, to cut down on the number of rolls and chart look ups
to arrive at the hit location. 

For your purposes it might not be that big a deal. For the system I'm
working on I still have at least 2 more rolls (and chart lookups) to
arrive at the final damage result so everywhere I can streamline is
usefull. YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:10:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:10:50 -0800
Subject: [TML]
In-Reply-To: <006301c1b03a$684c30e0$a64cfea9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <B888ABEA.23E93%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 4:49 PM, Pat Connaughton at patconnaughton@earthlink.net wrote:

> unsubscribe tml  
> 
> 
> 

You have been unsubscribed

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:15:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:15:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <200202071451.g17Ep6516367@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>

On  Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:26:37 +1100, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] {CBC} Canon
<<<SNIPPAGE OF RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>
>I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
>so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
>or not.

Former US Marine here.  The selection process for decades now has had
higher education and intelligence test requirements to enlist in the Marine
Corps than in the Navy, Air Force, or Army.  Not a widely known fact,
although recruiters love to crow about it.  Until about thirty years ago it
was customary for judges to give rowdy young men who were arrested for
brawling the choice of "thirty days or three years," meaning thirty days in
jail or charges would be dropped if they enlisted for three years.  Usually
it was stipulated they enlist in the Marine Corps, not just any service.

You should probably count boot camp as part of the selection process.
During my day, roughly a third of enlistees would wash out of boot camp and
be given a discharge.  During the first few days, they gave us
opportunities to just raise our hands and say we'd changed our minds.  The
paper work would take months longer, and they'd keep you around pushing a
broom or some such until then.  The primary criteria for graduating from
boot camp are psychological commitment and physical endurance.  They make
each day a trying process, and if you don't **want** to get through to
graduation, you won't.

The physical demands of boot camp definitely emphasized endurance more than
strength, dexterity, intelligence, education, or social standing.  Strength
and dex were definitely quite significant, of course.  The vast majority of
us definitely gained strength or washed out.  The long-time weight lifters
who entered boot camp did privately complain that their strength
conditioning was worse after a couple of months, but felt like their
overall conditioning was better.  For instances of dexterity being
important, I can only really think of marksmanship on the rifle range and
nimbility on the obstacle/confidence course or in pugil sticks.  The Marine
Corps puts a lot of emphasis on rifle marksmanship.  Intelligence and
education were arguably significant.  Granted that they graduated a few
from boot camp who seemed dumber than a box of rocks, they also did indeed
flunk out some others for not being able to pass periodic written exams and
hands-on exams.


Over the last ten years, a longer-term trend in all four armed services
towards emphasizing education has accelerated, at least in the Marine
Corps.  The current goal is to have every enlisted Marine hold at least a
two-year degree.  Of course, they still haven't reached 100% of them having
high school diplomas or GEDs, but they're doing better at that than the
other three services.  They also have a number of books for required
reading each year, all titles pertaining to military history/science.  Even
the privates.  They've also made the strength portion of the biannual
fitness tests tougher to pass.

Classic Traveller enlistment rolls for the US Marine Corps (the one I was
in) might include:
-1 DM for Str 5 or less
-1 DM for Dex 4 or less
-1 DM for End 6 or less
-1 DM for Int 5 or less
+1 DM for Int 8+
+1 DM for Edu 7+
If the player fails a success roll for initial training, then they are
discharged after one partial term.  Base roll is 5+.
-1 DM for Str 5 or less
-1 DM for Dex 6 or less
-3 DM for End 7 or less, -1 DM for End 9 or less
-1 DM for Int 5 or less
+2 DM for End 9+
+1 DM for Int 8+

There are too many different DMs to really fit the spirit of CT, but you
get the idea.  Note that there would still be average and below average
physical specimens getting through enlistment and initial training, however
there wouldn't be a lot of them.
Benefits from success at initial training might include:
2+ on 1D for Combat Rifleman-1
1D-3 added to Endurance
2+ on 1D for +1 Str
4+ on 1D for +1 Dex
6+ on 1D for Tactics, Survival, Brawling, Recon

The US and British Marines have had a long history of cooperation and
mutual respect.  Lots of exchange programs.  Work together on conferences
and such.  When the two countries have sent troops to serve alongside each
other, they tend to group the Marines together.  And so on.  From
everything I've read, and from the Marines I've met who've done the
exchange programs, I think it's awfully big of the RM to treat us equals.
They're at least five times more selective in recruiting.  Their training
standards are much tougher, initial training lasts a lot longer, and
there's a lot more encouragement and opportunity to wash out and not
graduate.  Their record on the battlefield supports my high estimation of
them.  I'm **damned** glad for the RM who were with us near Chosin in
Korea, for instance.  Anyway, don't apply my description of the USMC to the
RM, it would not be appropriate.


An OT BTW.  We over here in the States congratulate the Queen on her
jubilee and celebrate with all of you.  (Yes, we do actually pay attention.
 Nobody over here really seems to sympathize with those who are proposing
to do away with the throne as an antiquated and useless expense.  The
attitude seems to be that it's really quite a cheap thing compared to the
overall budget, and it seems to have functioned well so far.  If it ain't
broke, don't fix it.  Besides, it's your country's issue, not ours.)

<<<SNIPPAGE OF REMAINING RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>

--Laning
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier.  This was the case with the Greeks
and the Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson
(Okay, so he ignores Marines, Navy, and Air Force but you get the idea.  :-)
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:29:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100434.009f6ab0@mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
 <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020208012906.00e175e8@buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For example:

Meson Guns in GURPS TRAVELLER are of one kind - killer kind!  One attack,
that if it hits, pretty much toasts anything it hits.

In HIGH GUARD, the meson spinal mount came in the following categories:

Per Traveller TL (as opposed to GURPS tech level):

11:
5000 tons
8000 tons

12:
2000 tons
5000 tons
8000 tons

13:
1000 tons
2000 tons
5000 tons
8000 tons

14:
1000 tons
2000 tons
4000 tons
7000 tons
8000 tons

15:
1000 tons
2000 tons
5000 tons
7000 tons

According to Mayday, it states that short range is 5 hexes for use with
High Guard, and ships beyond 15 hexes may not be fired upon.  This means
then, that Max range for Long is 15 hexes.  The rules state that each hex
is approximately 1 light second in distance.  Thus, a 15 hex distance is
really 15 light seconds!

Another approach we can use is to consider that 10 triple beam lasers at TL
13 has the same odds of hitting as a Spinal Mounted Meson gun at TL 11.

Using that guidance, we get the fact that the accuracy value for 30 lasers
firing is equal to an accuracy bonus of +12.  This means that our TL 11
Meson Guns should have an inherent accuracy value of +12 when firing at a
target.  The only way this could happen is if the Meson Gun fires "multiple
pulses" at its target rather than one big pulse.  This "reasoning" matches
the observed effects in the HIGH GUARD game.  How so?  Remember that the
Meson Spinal mount does 1 extra hit per letter value above 8 it does.
Thus, a type A does two critical hits per hit it scores on a target.
  By using multiple pulses for the meson gun, meson screens are now that
much more valuable - just like they are in HIGH GUARD.

Is anyone interested in working out a Meson Gun in GURPS  TRAVELLER terms
that works similar to the Meson Gun from High Guard?

        Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:00:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:00:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Missing Persons Report
Message-ID: <200202080543.g185hZn04247@mail3.iserv.net>

Whatever happened to David Golden?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:30:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:30:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C63671D.D8783A39@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <B888B078.23E9E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 9:50 PM, David Shayne at daveshayne@ameritech.net wrote:

> 
> And I selected the system I did to: 1, make use of a standard CT rolling
> convention, and 2, to cut down on the number of rolls and chart look ups
> to arrive at the hit location.
> 
> For your purposes it might not be that big a deal. For the system I'm
> working on I still have at least 2 more rolls (and chart lookups) to
> arrive at the final damage result so everywhere I can streamline is
> usefull. YMMV
> 
> David Shayne

Cool. I don't streamline it too much, because my aiming rules require a
general and specific location. PCs can aim at a general location, but
specifics are still random.

You are right though.  The longer I play, the more I simplify. All that
rolling is just there to facilitate role playing.  That's the important bit.
Do you have your house rules posted somewhere?

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:46:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:46:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <20020207.224624.-250473.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Dear Mr. Henry J. Lickspittle,

At your urgent request I've dispatched a shuttle yesternight for yonder 
place of gloom and dispare.  Your skills are desperately needed aboard.
We have a recruiting office onboard to help you fit in. Please call your
friends to the roof of mobile rising room seven. Just look for a cube.
Were on our way. 

General Turokan

We are the Borg.
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.
Freedom is irrelevant;
Self-determination is irrelevant;
You must comply.
Strength is irrelevant.
Death is irrelevant.
Your defensive capabilities are unable to withstand us.
Your life, as it has been, is over.
>From this time forward, you will service us.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:00:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:00:40 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 16:36, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
> the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
> components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
> undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
> loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
> loads...jam city.

It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists, thank 
goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to limit magazine 
size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing that's hard to make in 
a small workshop is the primer."


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:13:33 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 18:38, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 2/7/02 3:36 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> > The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
> > reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!
> 
> But .22s are cheap, and reloading doesn't really help all that much.  Brass
> cases have a limited lifespan.  They can only be reloaded a few times before
> they start to crack.  You are not going to draw your own cases.

This depends on how hot you load them. When my father had his .22 Hornet he reloaded ome of the cases over 20 times, and IIRC one only started to crack at 40 uses. His .243 cases have been reloaded over ten times and only a few have had to be thrown away (and they're all one that have been used 
for hot batches).

> Semiautos weren't really practical until the advent of smokeless powder.
> Fouling was the main problem.

I don;t think it's that hard to make low-grade 'smokeless' powder, so as long 
as you're not loading too hot, and aren't gtetting carried way this shouldn't 
be too much of a problem for a community with some surviving chemical skill.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:50:04 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <000c01c1b06c$ee0efa00$b35d8690@computer>

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> >      "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra &
> > Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be
> > ignored,..."
> >
> >      Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of
> > the OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)
>
> Well, I must flee off to work before I'm late, so I can't go into details
> until tonight.

OK, a bit earlier than I expected...

Basically DGP suggested that Arbellatra, rather than Zhakirov, engineered
the eclipse of Solomani power at court.  In other words, Zhakirov was just
following a script Arbellatra wrote, rather than asserting his own power.
Fortunately, this suggestion was made in a way where it can be read as
opinion, rather than fact.

Rim of Fire has already overwritten it enough to allow it to be ignored.
Woo-hoo!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:24:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F220C6POYFSrAuWiqJm00002bd7@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Basically DGP suggested that Arbellatra, rather than Zhakirov, 
engineered the eclipse of Solomani power at court.  In other words, Zhakirov 
was just following a script Arbellatra wrote, rather than asserting his own 
power.  Fortunately, this suggestion was made in a way where it can be read 
as opinion, rather than fact."

     "Rim of Fire has already overwritten it enough to allow it to be 
ignored.  Woo-hoo!"


Mr. Bradley,

     Woo-hoo, indeed!  The sooner the good stuff is cherry picked out of 
DGP's work and the rest flushed the better.
     I consigned them to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump fuel 
ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel for a jump of ANY 
length because the engines were "tuned" to operate at their maximum rating.  
So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's onboard jump 
fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
     Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!
     They later "modified" this from "all fuel" to "most fuel", but the 
result was still the same.  In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of 
published designs.  Here's a knee slapper, they came out with all of this 
AFTER publishing the "Nemesis" article in their own rag!  That's right, they 
actually published a nifty design for a jump5 ship built around a meson 
spinal mount and sporting a black globe that would perform strategic 
"boomerang" attacks by jumping TWICE with fuel already onboard and THEN 
invalidate the whole shebang with a new fuel rule a few issues later.  D'oh!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:55:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>
Message-ID: <B888C482.23F15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 11:13 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:


> 
> I don;t think it's that hard to make low-grade 'smokeless' powder, so as long
> as you're not loading too hot, and aren't gtetting carried way this shouldn't
> be too much of a problem for a community with some surviving chemical skill.
> 

The biggest problem with making smokeless powder is controlling grain size
and shape.  This controls burning rate.  Basically, most commercial
smokeless powder is the same chemically.  The difference between powders in
the grains.

Maybe something like cordite would be easier.  Use an old pasta maker to
extrude it.  Besides, there's nothing like the smell of cordite.  These
modern nitro free powders just aren't the same.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 08:31:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 03:31:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208083342.PEEP319.dorsey@link>

Mark, thanks for the courtesy of asking.  Go right ahead, I'm flattered.  :->
--Laning

On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 at 16:48:42 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:

>Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?
>
>At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 08:50:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:50:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHAEMHDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal and
Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for 1993-1998.  We
decided to make a hit location chart using the information it contained.  In
assault cases of gunshot wounds the following hit locations were given:

Report Results
Head / Neck - 14%
Arm / Hand - 13%
Leg / Foot - 33%
Upper Trunk - 21%
Lower Trunk - 16%
Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)

Hit Location Table (d12)
1:		Head
2: 		Right Arm
3: 		Left Arm
4-6: 		Chest
7: 		Abdomen
8: 		Groin
9-10: 	Left Leg
11-12: 	Right Leg

Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get hit
more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier to keep
the PCs alive by not hitting them there.

And yes, I know it uses an "evil" D12.  However as dice are just tools for
randomizing percentages, I dont care about different dice.  Anyway, you
could just change the percenages to whatever dice mix you like.  We liked
the D12 as you could roll it with your "to-hit" and get the location at the
same time in an easy to remember chart without much chart memorization.

Justin



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 09:00:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:00:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <B888C482.23F15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C644A79.12897.8CBDFD@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 23:55, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Maybe something like cordite would be easier.  Use an old pasta maker to
> extrude it.  Besides, there's nothing like the smell of cordite.  These
> modern nitro free powders just aren't the same.

Exactly. Besides, guncotton isn't at all hard to make and it's reasonably 
smokeless. The big thing would be to load 'light' to allow for unforseen 
variations in the brew. Actually if you're using cast lead bullets you'll be 
wanting to keep the velocity down to reduce lead buildup anyway. I suspect the 
biggest problem with a semi-auto in this situation would be getting reasonably 
safe and relaible loads that are hot enough to cycle the weapon properly. I 
could see someone using a semi-auto as a single-shot (manually cycling the 
weapon), using post-holocaust ammo, with a magazine of carefully hoarded pre-
holocaust ammo for emergencies that need full power and maximum RoF.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:10:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHMEOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


True, but you have to avoid the Delbruck vs. the gods syndrome.  ignorant
people covering any major beat is an indictment of the news agency not a
denial of the beat's importance.

jml
a crank, a grogand and a history buff
and darn proud of it


> Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses
>  the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Something I learned while working on the Gulf War Factbook and slightly
after
was that the "military beat" is considered one of the least prestigeous jobs
and anybody assigned to it tries to get out as soon as possible. Evidently
showing too much familiarity with military affairs is (or was, anyway) a
career killer.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 10:54:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 02:54:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020208105451.68486.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>


--- n2sami <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

<<If Afghanistan is any example (and note here I do not watch
television so cannot comment on that reportage) the military beat today
is a talk to a local that was there kind of gig.>>

That's partly our* fault.  Journalists, in general, are taught to
localize a story.  For instance, during the anthrax scare most local
news outlets carried stories on their localities' plans to deal with
such an outbreak.  Military public affairs types,* knowing this, make
an effort to put news folks in touch with military folks from the same
region.  This usually means the story is more likely to run, and that
means the military gets favorable press, which is what military public
affairs is all about. 

*Journalist, USN/USNR (1986-present).



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 09:12:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:12:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fading Suns Deckplans
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121093405.00abe390@urbin.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020208101259.5b2229ca.jenry023@student.liu.se>

I've been getting hopelessly lost in the TML-reading department... working
on fixing that right now.

Antony Farrell wrote:
> As far as the Fading Suns "Approved for Use With" deckplans has anyone
done
> a conversion of any of them to Traveller. I have one set and apart from
> names and deckplans there is no indication of what they classes of
vessel
> they would be in a Traveller universe. Any ideas?

I have the set called "Letters of Marque," but I haven't done any work on
them yet. I meant to, but real life got in the way.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'll probably be doing FFS2 designs based on those maps at some
point in time. Someone mentioned estimating tonnage from the deckplans.
How is that done?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:07:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:07:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <20020208083342.PEEP319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208070713.01eebc08@mail.charter.net>

OK, how would you like to be attributed?

At 03:31 AM 2/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Mark, thanks for the courtesy of asking.  Go right ahead, I'm flattered.  :->
>--Laning
>
>On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 at 16:48:42 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>
> >Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?
> >
> >At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
> >>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
> >>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
"I fear all I have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with
a terrible resolve." --Admiral Yamamoto after the bombing of Pearl Harbor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:25:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:25:54 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Some comments:-

Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
damage the bladder <g>.

Keep the locations, descriptions vary with damage sustained:-

<1D : superficial wounds (lacs, abrasions, bruises, sprains),
closed fractures of a bone in the region.

2-4D: Multiple or open fractures in one region, simple perforations of
hollow organs, mild-moderate contusion of solid organs.

4-6D: Major internal injury/injuries, with significant blood loss.
Multiple region fractures, severe burns.

6+D: Lethal internal or external injuries, unless promptly treated.

Alternate wound location table (based on rule of 9's)
Locations :-

 D6                 D6 
 1-2: Head or arm:  1-2 Head or neck 
                    3-4 Right arm 
                    5-6 Left arm 
 3: Chest   
 4: Abdomen   
 5: Right Leg       1   Foot   
 6: Left Leg          "


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 11:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:26:23 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1ae37$f341e1e0$675d8690@computer>

> From: "Jeff Yin"
> Fast reaction plans called for the mobilization of Deneb fleet, to counter
> Zhodani advances in the Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach.

Trojan Reach?  From the Avalar Consulate, I presume. OK.

> Though Imperial fleets had been pushed out of the Jewell and Regina
> subsectors,

Presumably the Hi-pop worlds were still being beseiged. OK.

> Consulate advances were half hearted seeming to have been stopped by late
> 1118.  The addition of Deneb fleet signaled a renewed counter offensive
> with the aim of liberating Efate.

OK.

> In reality, Zhodani forces swept through Trojan Reach sector, into
> Rhylanor and Trin's Veil, as well as the rimward subsectors of Deneb.

I see - the Imperial counter offensive failed, and the Zhodani were able to
continue theirs.  Fine, but it needs to be a bit more explicit.  You
probably should have a closer look at the time factor here.

Getting to Trin's Veil either means bypassing Glisten, or going through it.
This probably deserves a mention.

-------------------------

Your stuff is good.  Even the quibbles I had above have turned out to be
less serious once I looked at them more closely.

A problem the GDW/DGP Rebellion had was that they stacked the disasters a
little too high.  I can see this being a bit of a potential problem for your
timeline.  But, that's just a feeling, and I'm keen to see how the rest of
your posts turn out.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:53:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 04:53:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part 4
References: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost> <3C644A79.12897.8CBDFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <OE65TbdkSmLAztxc1o800007fa0@hotmail.com>

Only one part left, I swear!  I think we all know the gratitude routine, so
on with the material:


1121 and 1122 bore witness to intense fighting on the Ilelish front, first
with the invasion of Dlan itself, then later with the pursuit into Verge.
The full-scale assault on a high pop/high tech world is not done lightly,
and the Dlan operation had projected casualties in the order of the Terran
campaign a century earlier.  However, despite a bloody and contested
landing, Imperial forces managed a stunning victory largely due to the
reluctance on the part of Dlan's citizenry for armed resistance.  The
Virasin faith, in its requirement that believers die a non-violent death,
hampered the kind of partisan operations witnessed on Earth.  By mid 1122,
the planet was firmly in loyalist hands.  Strephon's fleet then advanced
spinward towards Verge, meeting the Archduke's fleet in the largest naval
engagement of the Ilelish campaign.  Those remaining under the Archduke's
flag were the most stalwart of his supporters, but also those commanders who
had participated in the Zarushagar campaigns.  The Emperor had promised
harsh penalties for the perpetrators of the resource strikes in the early
years of the rebellion.  In either case, neither class of people was like to
surrender, with the result that the remaining battles were often fought to
the last Ilelish vessel.  Casualties on both sides were heavy, but
especially so among the rebel forces.  Finally, on 277-1122, Dulinor was
killed while commanding the rear elements of his retreating fleet.  The
remaining ships surrendered over the rest of the year.  On 328-1122, Dulinor
's daughter Isis returned to Dlan, formally surrendering the Ilelish forces.
She had in her possession a letter from her father to Strephon, written on
131-1116.  Never intended for delivery, it was a stirring and quite eloquent
apology, obviously meant much more as an attempt to reconcile the upcoming
murder of his friend and supporter with a larger moral objective.  Some
claimed the letter was a cleverly crafted piece of propaganda, meant to
soften an Emperor already well known to anguish over those who had died,
even among the rebels, during the course of this rebellion.  Whatever the
truth of the matter, Strephon confirmed Isis to the title of Duchess of
Ilelish, and pardoned her for any actions during the rebellion.  (It was
known she had served in only a public relations capacity in any case.  Isis
and Iphigenia had even maintained a warm and public friendship prior to
132-1116)



 Through 1121 and 1122 the Vilani front remained relatively static.  Despite
occasional small engagements, usually in the course of reconnaissance,
neither side was willing to give battle.  As the news continued to pour in,
Ishuggi realized the inevitable result.  By 180-1122, he had acquiesced to
Imperial demands, preparing his fleets for full mobilization.  Though it was
known he balked at the demand to place his ships under Brzk, the Vilani
Archduke knew he tread on thin ice, and agreed with as much grace as he
could muster.  Gushemege and Dagudashaag likewise leapt back into line, not
only sending their fleets to the Solomani front, but also offered to pay for
a significant portion of the Ilelish campaign, and organized sector wide
celebrations in honor of Strephon and the Imperium.



1122 was the grimmest year for the Spinward Marches.  Zhodani fleets had
overrun much of Glisten, Mora, and Trin's Veil subsectors, even as far as
Rhylanor.  The combined Imperial fleet, which by 97-1122 included not only
most of Spinward Marches and Deneb fleet, but also the remaining Corridor
forces were stalled in Regina subsector.  Effective coordination by the
local Consulate colonial fleet commander and several key Vargr raiders
stumped Imperial advances.  Though possessing far greater naval assets,
Imperial forces constantly guarded against a pincer attack from Rhylanor,
and could only reclaim Efate and Allel by the end of the year, managing no
significant inroads into Jewell.  Following up on its earlier successes, the
208th fleet remained in the Sword Worlds.  Easily defeating the returning
Sword Worlds fleets, the rest of the year was spending in various
suppression roles, while waiting for new orders.  Many spinward admirals
wanted to take the combined fleet against the Zhodani forces in Rhylanor,
but Norris overruled them, saying simply that he had put his bet on
Strephon, and wasn't about to change now.  What exactly he meant by this
remained unclear until the following year, as Brzk led a massive relief
force through Corridor.



In 1122, stalwart efforts by Adair and his Vegan allies forbade the Solomani
further advances for yet another year.  However, his fleets began to suffer
from lack of replacements and even proper maintenance.  Confederation raids
in the coreward parts of the sector made re-supply difficult.  Increasing
the Vegan Autonomous Region became an embattled enclave of Imperial
strength, and though impressively provisioned for such an occasion, was
beginning to show signs of economic strain after five years of war.  In the
Old Expanses, it was no longer possible to draw an accurate picture of
political control.  Several smaller polities, propped up by Imperial or
Solomani deserters, sprung into a brief existence, only to suffer an
ignominious end, often to a larger band of rogues.  Meanwhile, small units a
single squadron in size or less continued to prowl the sector, loyal to one
side or the other, targeting support structures belonging to their enemies.
As trade ground to a halt, corsairs and other villains went in search of
fresh prey.  By early 1123, coreward Alpha Crucis became their new hunting
ground.  In Daibei, Duke Craig's forces continued a determined resistance,
but were nevertheless forced out of the rimward 4 subsectors.  Solomani
advances had been slow but constant, and the Imperial situation might have
collapsed with one stunning success.  Unfortunately for the Confederation,
Duke Craig was able to find unexpected help from the Aslan.  Significant
land grants (including territory not within the pre-war Imperial borders),
post war economic considerations, and personal contacts managed to gain the
Duke the allegiance of several new Ihatei fleets.  Though no match for front
line Confederation forces, the Aslan proved a significant disruption on
Solomani supply lines.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:06:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:06:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003001c1b0a1$638a0f20$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> Hello Folks,
>   I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
> converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For
example:
>
I think the Naval Architecture articles Christopher Thrash wrote for JTAS
include GT stats for the letter-coded meson guns that appear in High Guard.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:39:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:39:35 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
Message-ID: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>

From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>

     "That's partly our* fault.  Journalists, in general, are taught to
localize a story."


Mr. Harris,

     First, journalism is easily taught and can be taught far more rapidly 
than the current "4 years and grad school" model followed by most.  It 
doesn't take that long to learn how to write a pyramid lead or to learn how 
to use Strunk & White's "Elements of Style".
     Actually, the best journalists are those who haven't been officially 
trained how to do it.  Mencken is most likely during a couple thousand RPM 
in his grave after looking at the shambling mob of boobs practicing his 
profession these days.
     Second, the horde of journalists staggering about are in actuality 
reporters.  Pepys was a journalist, he kept a journal.  Reporters calling 
themselves journalists is like garbage collectors calling themselves 
sanitation engineers.
     Reporters should bring no preconcieved notions to a story and a basic 
knowledge of the nuts and bolts.  Most military reporters do neither.  They 
automatically assume, because their instructors taught them to, that there 
is something neferious going on.  They also betray an almost unbelievable 
ignorance of the most basic facts and make no effort to learn them.
     How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your 
care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did during 
the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a "battleship", as 
I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about any other topic, 
they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs don't somehow count.  
Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the obligatory February piece on Dr. 
King without knowing what Selma was all about?

     "*Journalist, USN/USNR (1986-present)."

     A Journalist's Mate?  They used to try and show some sort of Pentagon 
produced, half-hour long, weekly news program on our site TV system until 
the crew squawked about it.  Sitcoms and movies, thank you very much.  After 
a few months at sea, all the rest is chaff.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:04:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:04:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <3C63DAF3.FBEB2024@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:50:43 -0800
> From: "Justin Bunnell" <jbunnell@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
> 
> A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal 
> and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> 1993-1998.  

<snip>

> (ouch! a shot to my not specified)

Those can be among the most painfull of wounds.

<snip>

> And yes, I know it uses an "evil" D12.  

No, no, a thousand times no. D12 aren't evil. They're just 
misunderstood. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:52:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:52:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C63D80C.5A5840A2@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:30:16 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location

<snip>

> Cool. I don't streamline it too much, because my aiming rules require
> a general and specific location. PCs can aim at a general location,
> but specifics are still random.
>
> You are right though.  The longer I play, the more I simplify. All
> that rolling is just there to facilitate role playing.  That's the
> important bit.
> Do you have your house rules posted somewhere?

Not yet. This is still very much a work in progress. 

I need to flesh out the specifics of the wound mechanisms. What I have
so far requires at least one table look up and two more rolls against
endurance to determine wound effects. This is far too unwieldy and I
need to brainstorm a simpler way of determining things like
consciousness or the lack thereof and what if any penalties to actions
different severity's of wounds cause. And then I want to get the first
aid and healing rules into a similar state before I'm ready to start
play testing. 

After that I'll get in touch with my ISP about how I would go about
using the net space that comes with my DSL account.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:03:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:03:21 +1000
Subject: [TML] Milieu 700: Regency of Antiama
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005501c1b0a9$75172fe0$b95d8690@computer>

So, I've been thinking about this Antiama stuff.  Here is how I think a game
would work:

The setting is basically about the Solomani/non-Solomani power struggle.  It
doesn't quite erupt into outright civil war, but nobody knew that at the
time.  It is quite conceivable that relatively small scale military action
could have happened.

The key word is relatively, of course.  Since the factionalism extends right
to the foot of the Imperial throne, it is quite possible that the normal
limits on intra-Imperial warfare might not apply.  If a Solomani noble is
kicking around her anti-Solomani rivals, Solomani sympathisers higher up in
the hierarchy might be able to prevent an Imperial intervention, or possibly
even ensure that the intervention is on _her_ side...  Of course,
anti-Solomani nobles would be trying to do the same for the other side.  : )

This means that being in an area where the rivalry is getting hot is very
dangerous.  Sensible PCs will tend to run away from such areas.  This means
being a little sneaky.  The frog boiling technique is applicable.
Essentially, the factional conflict escalates very, very slowly.

At first it is just a slanging match.  That little war on that little world
over there is unrelated to anything else.  The drop in the Naasirka share
price has nothing to do with anything.  The marriage of Cousin It is just
some piece of background fluff, isn't It?  The appointment of Admiral
Bilandii is just stuff that happens...  The disappearance of some ship is an
accident. Maybe there is a minor outbreak of piracy...  The PCs do a couple
of missions for some noble family, and maybe a corporation or two.  They
make some handy contacts.  They don't have to realise that they've become
"assets" for Zirunkariish.

None of this stuff, if done carefully, will scare them away.  When things do
hit, hopefully, they will be sucked in too deep to run...

Where to run such a game?  The obvious location is somewhere near the
coreward border of the Solomani Sphere.  The exact side of the border would
depend on which faction are the good guys!  Diaspora would be a good choice,
although it has already been used for Hard Times and TNE.  (Ditto Old
Expanses.)

Of course, there is the obvious problem for any backdated campaign:  exactly
how much should you regress the worlds?

PS:  I am going to have to look at the question of Arbellatra and the
Solomani Movement in more detail.  When I was thinking about the Civil War a
couple of years ago, I tended to ignore it, and instead concentrated on her
interactions with her Vargr subordinate Soegz and the Archduke of Vland.  In
retrospect, my approach did allow for the emergence of Solomani dominance at
court - Soegz was a bit of a political liability, especially once his
Huscarles got involved in purging pro-Gustus human nobles, while the
Archduke of Vland was coerced into "ordering" Arbellatra to "restore order"
in the Imperium, and putting the Vland fleet under her control.  These
allies, then, while essential to her seizure of the throne, probably
wouldn't have been the ones she relied on to actually run the Imperium.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com
















From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:11:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020208141129.4730.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<A Journalist's Mate?>>

Nope.  Journalist.  -mate assumes there is an actual person of that
title to whom you are an assistant (Boatswain's mates are assistants to
the Boatswain, Electrician's mates are assistants to the Electrician,
etc.).  There are no officer Journalists in the U.S. Navy for us to
assist.  There are public affairs officers (1650/1655) and JOs do work
with them in the public-relations department, but Navy Journalists have
duties and responsibilities other than straight public relations work. 
For instance, ship or base newspapers, SITE television, and AFRTS radio
and TV stations are the responsibility of Navy Journalists -- and often
have a POIC rather than an OIC.

<<They used to try and show some sort of Pentagon produced, half-hour
long, weekly news program on our site TV system until the crew squawked
about it.>>

That would be "Navy & Marine Corps News This Week" (formerly "Navy News
This Week" or, as we used to call it, "Navy News That's Weak").  It is
a bit too much like those weekend "News" shows that were popular during
the early 80s, but have since gone the way of the dinosaur.

<<Sitcoms and movies, thank you very much.  After a few months at sea,
all the rest is chaff.>>

Most sailors I've known were news and sports junkies.  We had an
evening news cast on IKE with all the latest stateside news and sports
scores.  It proved to very popular.



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:36:23 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fading Suns Deckplans
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121093405.00abe390@urbin.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <20020208101259.5b2229ca.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3C63E267.ED411153@premier.net>



Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> I've been getting hopelessly lost in the TML-reading department... working
> on fixing that right now.
> 
> Antony Farrell wrote:
> > As far as the Fading Suns "Approved for Use With" deckplans has anyone
> done
> > a conversion of any of them to Traveller. I have one set and apart from
> > names and deckplans there is no indication of what they classes of
> vessel
> > they would be in a Traveller universe. Any ideas?
> 
> I have the set called "Letters of Marque," but I haven't done any work on
> them yet. I meant to, but real life got in the way.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Anyway, I'll probably be doing FFS2 designs based on those maps at some
> point in time. Someone mentioned estimating tonnage from the deckplans.
> How is that done?

What I plan to do is count the deck squares to get an idea of the
internal volume, then guesstimate the jump fuel tonnage and go from
there.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:27:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:27:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <005201c1ae37$f341e1e0$675d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>

Alan,

Points well taken.  I definetly could have benefited from additional
articulation in the Marches.  Maybe I can even get a few volunteers to whip
up some inserts/modifications.  If I was going to rewrite the passage you
reviewed in detail, it would have included a few more clarifications.

    1)  The arrival of Deneb fleet, combined with the lack of commitment in
the Zhodani offensive allows Norris to rebuke further Consulate advances.
Over the course of 1118, the Imperial situation in Regina had stabalized,
with a view towards the liberation of Efate.

    2)  The main reason for the Consulate's lackluster thrust into Regina,
and their unwillingness to proceed beyond lengthy and relatively bloodless
sieges lies in the fact that many front line fleets have been drawn for the
operation meant to sweep through the Trojan Reaches.  Your assertion that
the Zhodani passed through Glisten is entirely correct, aided by additional
Consulate forces from Querion through the Sword Worlds.

    3)  To be sure, Norris' fleet in Regina is large enough to batter the
Zhodani out of Jewel, but above all he does not want to be cut off from
behind.  Likewise, if he departs from Regina it is probable that he could
defeat the forces at Rhylanor, but if he did not do so quickly any
resemblance to a front would disintergrate.

As for dates, I would be the first to admit that all listed (except for the
week of 132-1116) times are rough conjecture, and certianly liable to a
potentially unsetteling margin of error.  If I have made a mistake in
timing, especially one with significant rammifications, please let me know.

As for the disasterama, I tend to agree with your assesment here too.  Of
course, much was said of the Imperium's industrial and military strength.
In order for the events in canon Rebellion to make sense, something has to
offset those advantages.  Because I think the Rebellion was too drastic (or
rather, perhaps not selective enough) in its disasters, I am definetly
trying to avoid a similiar trend.  However, the Rebellion string of events
is admittedly the base line for many of this thread's assumptions.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:40:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:40:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <B8892377.23F5C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 4:25 AM, Robert O'Connor at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:

> Some comments:-
> 
> Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
> One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
> damage the bladder <g>.

Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:43:23 -0000
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
References: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <000901c1b0b8$ea952b00$8500a8c0@imogen>

Hal wrote:
> Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable
> planets that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

Choose players who  are  sufficiently  un-astrohead-like  not  to
notice.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
> choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
> to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
> they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
> from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.

As a gun shop owner once said to me:

  Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
  man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
  to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

Although that only applies to sane folks, as a deterrent.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:29:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500
References: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020208092930.D22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> "I was cleaning it and it went off..."

I personally believe that anyone who is found not to have unloaded a
firearm before cleaning it should have all his weaponry confiscated
for some suitable time.  It's just Not That Hard to do.  There's just
no reason in the world not to check, double-check and triple-check.  I
was taught in Scouts to treat _every_ gun as loaded, even if I'd just
unloaded it myself.

OTOH, I understand that `cleaning his pistol' is a coroner's nicety
for `suicide.'

But then there's the moron who was flying through DFW over
THanksgiving.  To demonstrate that his elk rifle was unloaded, he
pulled the trigger.  Thereby putting a round through a window.

He should be put in the stocks for small children to throw tomatoes
at.  And have his rifle confiscated for at least a year.  Idiot.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:23:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:23:20 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020208092320.C22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."

The amusing thing is that ISTR a statistic to the effect that the
deadliest caliber, in terms of deaths per year, is the .22.  Not
because it is deadly in and of itself--it's almost laughably
_not_--but because a) it's so common b) it's particularly common among
young shooters and c) folks are not nearly so careful with it as they
are with other calibers.  I'm not certain if I believe it[1], but it's
interesting as either a fact or a falsehood constructed for some
reason.

[1] Memories of varmint hunting where it took three rounds to
kill--all within the heart-lungs area, with hollow point .22s.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing
is worth war is much worse.  The person who has nothing for which he is
willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal
safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless
made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
                                          --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:04:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:04:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #134
In-Reply-To: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:39:37PM -0500
References: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020208100451.G22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:39:37PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they go 
> as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 

Yup.  I've a cousin who is obsessed with Zeppelins.  He has all sorts
of reasons that they would actually work.  I was much the same way
about swords and horses once upon a time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:08:27 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:56:08PM -0800
References: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com> <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020208100827.H22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:56:08PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> 
> I entered the service at the base of its post Vietnam decline and left
> after the 'evil empire' had collapsed and we were done on the ground in
> Iraq. Did I see a range of our cultures relationship with its military
> over those years?

My old man got his commission right before Vietnam ended.  Thumbing
through his early cruise books is an enlightening experience.  Very
different from the Navy I remember as a boy, or have seen as an adult.
More than half of those sailors were well and truly frightening.
Which is, of course, a reflection of the esteem in which they were
held by their peers.

Incidentally, if anyone knows a source for Hanoi Jane urinal liners,
I'd be _most_ obliged...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A few years ago, Friday, October 14 was World Standards Day.  Or, at 
least, it was World Standards Day in *some* countries.  However, in 
America, the celebrations were held on October 11th.  In Finland, 
World Standards Day was marked on October 13th.  Italy planned a 
separate conference on standards for October 18th.  --Shakib Otaqui

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:40:49 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>; from mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:13:00PM +0000
References: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020208094049.F22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:13:00PM +0000, Megan Robertson wrote:
> 
> Goes back a fair old way. In the Second World War, military censors 
> actually physically damaged photographic negatives, causing the loss of 
> much information of historical significance. Grrr.

Well, for things to be historically significant, there must be a
future t appreciate them...

A lot of these things seem ridiculous to reporters, but war _is_ war,
and secrecy is pretty often useful, I would think.  Otherwise
intelligence services wouldn't be nearly as large as they are.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:48:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208084527.009ed610@mindspring.com>

At 10:16 PM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
>soldiers train in seamanship.
Since they appear in both Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium and 
Fifth Frontier War, I'd say that the presence of large troop transports as 
part of the Navy *at some level* is canonical.

Note my words.  IMTU, AssaultRons are part of the subsector navy, used only 
when needed.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:17:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> As a gun shop owner once said to me:
> 
>   Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
>   man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
>   to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

Now, I'll probably be the last guy on the TML to actually every carry a
firearm and/or use one on anything bigger than a woodchuck, but the
logic of carrying a small-calibre pistol in defence seems pretty clear.

After a couple shots you'll have probably stopped your target from
doing whatever he was doing before you shot him. He is, however, 
unlikely to die on the spot which is probably a good thing in terms 
of how likely you'll be convicted or how long you'll be in jail for.

PC 1: He's still alive.
PC 2: Oh, thank god!
Pc 1: Uh, you shot him 6 times. Why are you so damn happy?
PC 2: Did you read the legal brief on this world before we hit dirt?   
      Murder is a capital offence here. He dies, I die. That's why I'm
      carrying this piece of crap low calibre weapon... it couldn't
      kill a groat.
PC 1: He is bleeding a lot though...
PC 2: Crap! Let's get him bandaged up and in the back of the air/raft.
      The nearest hospital is only a few clicks away I think...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>

Howdy

Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -

(1) Military Units

How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
tanks would you get in armoured units ?

The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as
the command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

Regards

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C6349BA.E6434845@together.net>
Message-ID: <3C640AFC.9010605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thom Jones-Low wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>
>>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
>>>He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
>>>company he founded later.
>>>
>>Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and
>>that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I
>>spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later
>>Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...
>>
>>
> 
> 	How soon they forget...
> 
> 	Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
> (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
> expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
> Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
> sitting on my gaming shelf). 

Hmmm. methinks I'd like to pay visit to this gaming shelf....I have Ogre 
somewhere at home, and I have the book to Melee, again, buried somwhere 
at home but I haven't seen it in ages.

Didn't Car Wars originate in thsi format, too?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:13:04 -0700
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 01:15:52AM -0500
References: <200202071451.g17Ep6516367@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020208101304.I22201@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 01:15:52AM -0500, Laning wrote:
>
> Until about thirty years ago it was customary for judges to give
> rowdy young men who were arrested for brawling the choice of "thirty
> days or three years," meaning thirty days in jail or charges would
> be dropped if they enlisted for three years.  Usually it was
> stipulated they enlist in the Marine Corps, not just any service.

This hasn't quite died yet.  I work for a fellow who's about 33-35,
and he got the choice when he was convicted of stealing radios.  He
chose the Marines, which has worked out well for him.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Complete sentences are so Q4'99.  --www.enormicon.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:15:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
Message-ID: <F180gQceqWv5GIagOVN00002ce0@hotmail.com>

>From: eholmes <eholmes@lanl.gov>

>I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
>available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Try this URL:

http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/allegiance_codes.1.txt

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:04:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (eholmes)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:04:23 -0700
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208100238.0238e730@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>

Fellow Travellers:


I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Thanks

Eric

Eric T. Holmes
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty....
Red Square (Moscow) and the Big Blue Bear (E. Berlin).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:35:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:35:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013189719.5758.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:
 
> It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists,
> thank  goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to
> limit magazine  size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing
> that's hard to make in  a small workshop is the primer."

Because most gun control is less interested in preventing anyone from having
weapons than in preventing certain classes of idiots and criminals from having
weapons?  Your average urban criminal wouldn't have a clue how to make
ammunition in a small workshop.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:15:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C6415D7.1050900@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> For a survivalist, you'd be better off with a big bore airgun.  No black
> powder, no flints, no big cloud of smoke when you fire.  Not a lot of noise.
> Just a lead bullet required.  There will be a lot of old batteries to
> scavenge.  Sure, hand pumping these beasties is tedious, but you can get
> 10-20 shots per charge, and reloading is on par with a bolt action rifle.
> There are several makers who offer them in calibers up to .50
> 
> See, for example http://ns.connext.net/~daq/index.html
> 
> Note the Bandit. The Bandit is a .50 cal. (.495) precharge 3000 p.s.i.
> rifle. The ball weighs 180 grains, goes 790 f.p.s. and produces 250 ft.-lbs.
> All for under $500.

Hoo-wee! That shore aint my childhood Daisy pumper!

I didn't know that such beasts were even made...I knew that air guns of 
sizeable caliber had been made in the 18th centuries, but thought the 
modern little BB guns and .177's were pretty much it.

Now I want one ;-)
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:26:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:26:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>

At 05:38 PM 2/8/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Howdy
>
>Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>
>(1) Military Units
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>tanks would you get in armoured units ?

Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine gun.

Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant

Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant

Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain

Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel

Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel

Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or Brigadier General

Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General

Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General

Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.

Note that the US Army doesn't use the Regiment as a separate unit.

Armored units are organized with each tank being a squad.  Thus you have a 
platoon of four or five tanks.

Cadre is a specific term normally referring to instructors.

>(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/fm101-5-1/f545con.htm

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/sym.htm

http://www.foxx-industries.com/2300ad/iss-unit.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/TomMouat/Maphome.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:01:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
References: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C641269.1060404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:


>     Reporters should bring no preconcieved notions to a story and a 
> basic knowledge of the nuts and bolts.  Most military reporters do 
> neither.  They automatically assume, because their instructors taught 
> them to, that there is something neferious going on.  They also betray 
> an almost unbelievable ignorance of the most basic facts and make no 
> effort to learn them.

Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because, 
in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their 
instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic 
radicals.

The press learned, much to their chagrin, just *how* managed they had 
been during the Gulf War, and to a lesser extent, now during the current 
action. In the Gulf War the supposedly independent press was reduced, 
essentially, to being a mouthpiece for the government.

While this was applauded by the military, it is NOT how the press in an 
open democracy was supposed to act.

Consider: They have now shown a correlation between Gulf War service and 
  a near doubling of the risk of contracting ALS. Why, we don't know, yet.

see: http://hsrd.durham.med.va.gov/ERIC/ALS/ALS.htm to get it from the 
source.

Was it because of chemical weapons exposure? Experimental Vaccines? 
Local diseases? A combination of all of the above?

Well, the Pentagon tells us no, and no independent voices were allowed 
to determine if those claims was true or not.

But the Pentagon has been telling us for years that there was nothing to 
the claims of Gulf War vets complaining of a variety of diseases, just 
like they told us for years that there was no link between Agent Orange 
and diseases.

It is telling that reporters have to technically violate US law to tell 
us what our government is doing in Guantanamo, in our name, in the face 
of serious world concern, because they have to report from the Cuban 
side of the the fence.

If there is mistrust of the government or military sources, believe me, 
it has been earned; it is not just some knee-jerk reaction of the 
obligatorily left-wing press.
	
>     How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your 
> care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did 
> during the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a 
> "battleship", as I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about 
> any other topic, they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs 
> don't somehow count.  Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the 
> obligatory February piece on Dr. King without knowing what Selma was all 
> about?

No, but you might try asking them what Dr. King was doing in Memphis 
when he was shot...

Actually I cringe when the reporters start talking about science or 
medicine much of the time. Similar errors of detailed fact abound.

To the general public what does it matter that it is correctly 
identified as an APC, rather than the more generic 'tank', when it's an 
armored tracked vehicle with a turret on top?

  While that would be a vastly important bit of trivia to know if you 
were under attack by an armored column, if you are reporting on the 
deployment of Marines at Khandahar Airport it is irrelevbant if you use 
the inaccurate, but generic term 'tank' to refer to an APC.

Joe and Jane Sixpack will probably go "AyePeeCeeWaht? That there's a 
tank, ya idjit!"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:12:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <3C641269.1060404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013191960.113.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because, 
> in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their 
> instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic 
> radicals.

And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies does not incline
one to believe everything the military says....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:42:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:42:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208133912.00abb9b8@mail.charter.net>

At 09:36 AM 2/8/2002 -0700, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
> > choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
> > to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
> > they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
> > from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.
>As a gun shop owner once said to me:
>   Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
>   man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
>   to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

I remember reading about an assassination technique that has been 
attributed to a. The Mafia, b. The  KGB, or c. The CIA.

.22 short semiautomatic pistol loaded with hollow points and a sound 
suppressor.  Pistol held under a coat or a newspaper.
Start at the groin and shoot up to the neck or head.  One round might not 
be deadly but, add up all five or six.
The pistol is fairly quiet, and can be covered up by normal street noise.

>Although that only applies to sane folks, as a deterrent.

-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:44:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208184644.SISR319.dorsey@link>

No attribution necessary.  It's only a sig, and the Internet equivalent of
a cheap witticism cooked up at a cocktail party.  :->

If you really prefer to have an attribution, then either:
Laning;
Laning Polatty, or;
Laning of the TML
seem like suitable possibilities.  But leave my email address out of it,
please.  :->

On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 07:07:33 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>
>OK, how would you like to be attributed?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:03:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>; from ethan.henry@sitraka.com on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> After a couple shots you'll have probably stopped your target from
> doing whatever he was doing before you shot him.  He is, however,
> unlikely to die on the spot which is probably a good thing in terms
> of how likely you'll be convicted or how long you'll be in jail for.

Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's better to kill
than to maim.  If someone's dead, he cannot sue.  Yes, there've been
instances where burglars have sued those who shot them in
self-defense.  I'm not certain if any have won, but there it is.

Yes, crazy, I know.

There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.  To stop
someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is not a matter of
_hurting_ him by throwing small things at him; it's a matter of
_stopping_ him by shutting down his central nervous system or
destroying a major organ like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally,
means that he dies.

In addition, there's the issue that after the first shot one's
accuracy tends to degrade, due to recoil, increased excitement &c.
Not that the first one in a real situation is likely to be _that_
good.  Anyway, one really does hope to be able to hit with the first
shot.

Having examined the wounds a .22 can cause in animals, I'm not
convinced that it would even slow someone with enough adrenaline
pumping through him.  I was actually surprised by how minor and clean
they were--and this was with hollow points, at a fairly close range
(less than a dozen feet, with a rifle).

OTOH, I have seen a rabbit taken out by a BB (.17?) from an air pistol
with hardly any pumping at all.  Perhaps it hit a nerve.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:02:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
Message-ID: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>

> > Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they 
> go 
>  > as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 
>  
>  Yup.  I've a cousin who is obsessed with Zeppelins.  He has all sorts
>  of reasons that they would actually work.  I was much the same way
>  about swords and horses once upon a time.

And the people who were calling for the replacement of the musket with the 
longbow as late as the 1780s.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:33:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:

> Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine
> gun. 
> 
> Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
So could be 8-12 men
> 
> Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
Could be 24-48 men
> 
> Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
Could be 72-192 men
> 
> Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel
Could be 288-960 men
> 
> Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel
Could be 864-3840 men
> 
> Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or Brigadier General
Could be 1728-11,520 men
> 
> Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General
Could be 5184-46,080 men
> 
> Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General
Could be 15,552-230,400 men
> 
> Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.
Could be 31,104-921,600 men

What's the actual range in sizes of various units?  I assume it would be rare
to have a brigade with more men than an army, but the formulations you give
allow it...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:54:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:54:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <B8895EDC.1EA4%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/8/02 9:38 AM, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> wrote:

> (1) Military Units
> How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
> Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
> organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
> size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
> tanks would you get in armoured units ?

Most militaries differ, and many units within the same military differ
according to purpose, but here's a good round idea:

4 men per Fireteam, led by Cpl.
2-3 FT per Squad, led by Sgt.
3 Sqd. per Platoon, led by Lieautenant.
3-4 Plt. per Company, led by Captain.
3-5 Co. per Regiment, led by Colonel.

After that it gets really fuzzy, based on task, etc.

There are many TMs on military symbols, many of which can be picked up
cheaply, or there are also books (Amazon, etc.)

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:01:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 15:06:58 GMT Standard Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > Some comments:-
> > 
> > Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
> > One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
> > damage the bladder <g>.
> 
> Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.
> 
> Tod
> 

Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:07:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013189719.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>

At 09:35 AM 2/8/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>  > It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists,
> > thank  goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to
> > limit magazine  size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing
> > that's hard to make in  a small workshop is the primer."
>Because most gun control is less interested in preventing anyone from having
>weapons than in preventing certain classes of idiots and criminals from having
>weapons?  Your average urban criminal wouldn't have a clue how to make
>ammunition in a small workshop.

No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.

Ob-Trav: This is what streetwise skill is for.  Letting the PCs get 
firearms when:
1. They are locally illegal
2.  Legal, but tracable
3. Just to keep old skills in practice. :-)



-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:00:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:00:51 EST
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <135.911f7b6.29957a63@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 23:23:04 GMT Standard Time, 
mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:


> Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control 
> communications & reporting...
> 
> ... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and Argentina had a 
> vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK forces were 
> outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy 
> vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them, 
> free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy about. Other 
> stuff just, um, got lost.
> 

<possible urban legend>
Apart from the time that the reporters told the British public that the 
Argentinians were fusing their bombs too long. Coincidentally the 
Argentianians appeared a short time later with shorter fuses on their bombs.
</possible urban legend>

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:47:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:47:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013197646.0.74086800@www.springmail.com>

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>Actually, T4 uses a vaguely-similar classification of range bands (although 
>with different names and breakdowns), so QSDS sensors are already rated 
>this way (although numerically, instead of with words - it's more compact, 
>and it's a lot easier to remember that 8 is bigger than 7 than it is to 
>recall if "planetary" is farther or shorter than "orbital".  :-)

This seems to be a matter of taste -- seeing a number to me denotes a fixed value whereas words connote a fuzzier 'approximate' value: 'Planetary' and '7' may mean exactly the same thing, but the latter makes me feel like I need to be counting hexes or measuring things while the former just leads me to assume 'about that far.'  There doesn't seem to be any rational basis for this; just latent numerophobia I guess.  At any rate, keeping the design steps general and then providing a multi-system evaluation process at the end sounds like a very good solution -- maximum versatility, and certainly easier than converting from T4 values by hand.  

>>I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer to 
>>(and be limited by) entries on a table.
>
>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if they 
>did, they may not have one handy when doing ship designs, so the design 
>sequences were written to be do-able with nothing but a pencil and paper.
>
>Nowadays (at least for me), it's a very rare circumstance when I don't have 
>at least a basic 4-function calculator within reach - and most of the time, 
>I have something in my pocket that is considerably more powerful than a CT 
>era (late-1970's) minicomputer.  So is it reasonable to write a design 
>sequence that simply assumes that a 4-function pocket calculator is 
>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250 times 
>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?
>
>The "conventional wisdom" is that the design sequence should be kept to 
>addition and subtraction, plus "simple" multiplication and division 
>(multiplication by single-digit or "easy" factors of 2, 5, and 10).  This 
>sort of logic is one of the reason behind all of the tables in QSDS - that 
>it is a lot easier to look up a value on a table and add it to a running 
>total than it is to multiply two three or four digit numbers.

I think that all math in the design sequence should be simple enough to either do in my head or with very few calculator keystrokes.  More than 3 significant digits and/or decimals beyond a tenth (or very rarely a hundredth) are too much.  I'd rather figure 22% of 1250 than subtract 36.4 from 1196.77 -- fewer keystrokes on the calculator, and easier to estimate (at least for me).

And perhaps it's lazy or inexact, but I prefer whole number values (or better yet multiples of 2, 5, and 10) to work with, at least at the level of basic table-entries. When I see, for instance, a table entry of 94.1, I always want to know why we can't just round that to 95. It's worth a 0.9 (>1%) fudge for me to have the math be simpler.  If I then have to use that number in a multiplication or subtraction step that gives me something uglier for an intermediate step that's okay, but I like the numbers to at least start out nice and round.


>That's partly a function of the vagueness; I make no guarantees about ships 
>over 5000 tons or so (or rather, you can construct them, but as you scale, 
>you will probably run into issues).  The system as presented is flat-out 
>wrong for ships below a certain minimum size (which is dependent on TL).  I 
>think I can improve this in the next iteration, but it'll still be a pretty 
>bad approximation when you get towards the ends of the spectrum.

I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within 20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using pre-published designs -- and if the system is also simple enough, I can just design my own craft with equivalent specs and not have to worry about exact values of published designs either.  While I agree that inter-system consistency is an admirable goal (and, in-fact, the whole point of this exercise -- if I didn't care about consistency I could just keep using HG -- or make up numbers from whole-cloth) and would like to see as much of it as practical, my overriding desire is and always will be for a system that's quick, easy to use, and self-consistent. 

>It sounds to me like you prefer to do a lot of your "designing" at the 
>deckplan stage.  I think I explained in the other message what I like to 
>see going into the deckplans.  Also, my deckplan designing was heavily 
>influenced by Azhanti High Lightning (where each chair on the bridge is 
>associated with a specific position and function), so I like to have 
>details down to the level of "that box is the fuel purifier, and that chair 
>is the weapons officer's station".

I can understand this desire, and that I'd say that's a good reason why you'd probably want to design your ships under a more detailed system that gives that level of info, but it seems unrealistic to assume all the rest of us want that level of detail too. When preparing designs and deckplans for official publication it's surely a good idea to base them on the most-detailed system (since you'll be much more bothered by 'errors' than I am by 'extraneous' detail), but if, for purposes of my own campaign, I'm satisfied with a fuzzier, more inexact approach, that shouldn't be disallowed or looked down upon.

I hope these comments are helping, if nothing more than at least to show the perspective I'm evaluating this from. I'm eagerly awaiting to your next posted revision.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 20:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:02:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013198535.1051.ajackson@ping>

Ethan Henry writes:
> My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
> some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> reality.

Well, there's reasonable evidence that people fall down after being shot
because the brain goes 'oh, I've been shot!  Time to fall down'.  A lot of
things can interfere with this process, at which point you're left with the
option of doing enough damage that they can't avoid falling down, which means
killing or crippling injuries.

That said, most drug-related crime is gang-related activity or theft, and
people ignoring bullets is rarely going to be an issue.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:48:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com> <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's better to kill
> than to maim.  If someone's dead, he cannot sue.  Yes, there've been
> instances where burglars have sued those who shot them in
> self-defense.  I'm not certain if any have won, but there it is.
> 
> Yes, crazy, I know.

Right. Civil suits. Forgot about that. 

> There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.  To stop
> someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is not a matter of
> _hurting_ him by throwing small things at him; it's a matter of
> _stopping_ him by shutting down his central nervous system or
> destroying a major organ like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally,
> means that he dies.

My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
reality.

The Toronto Star did a article or 2 on beat cops in Parkdale,
one of the less plesant parts of the city due to the mental
health hospital and addiction treatment center located there.
A lot of mentally ill people and drug users live in the neighbourhood
to be close to their treatment and because there's a lot of rooming
houses available (which is chicken and which is egg I don't know).

Anyway, the long and shrt of it is that officers who did the Parkdale
beat worried about their guns being grabed. 

Exclusively by people who wanted to shoot themselves.

So, anyway, I guess I just have a bit of a sore point about this
vision of hyped-up PCP-enhanced ubermenchen. Though I'm sure someone
will correct me and tell me how many times a day it really happens.

ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...

GM: He grabs your gun.
PC: What!? I jump him!
GM: He raises the gun...
PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
GM: And blows his brains out.
PC & PC 2: ohshit.
GM: You hear sirens in the distance...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 20:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:46:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:26 PM +1100 2/7/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the
>>  character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because,
>>  since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other
>>  character types add it to their concepts.
>
>That makes me more convinced than ever that we have irreconcilable
>differences in play styles.  I come up with the concept *before*
>looking at the rules.  If the concept wasn't for a Trader, then I
>won't add the skill just because it looks cheap.

A good roleplayer will do what he should regardless of the rules, but 
it is still good for the rules to no penaltize him or encourage 
certain behaviors.

>Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
>better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.

But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being 
_the_ one.

>  > I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are
>>  mostly things that don't appear in a game
>
>They appear in *my* games.  For my GURPS Space game, I have a job
>table extrapolated from real census data.  This is quite useful for
>generating NPCs.  Since I have already done the work, I can tell you
>that in 2001 Australia, 83% of jobs are in GURPS terms primarily
>covered by IQ-based skills.  This is not likely to decrease in the
>future; quite the opposite in my opinion.

Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track of 
the point values of my NPCs.

And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead 
them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.

>  >> So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as
>>>  exceptional conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the
>>>  other hand are ubiquitous.
>>
>>  I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a
>>  standard bonus.
>
>I was referring to sourcebooks, not the basic rules.  Even then, the
>aiming 'bonus' is nearly always teamed up with a very substantial
>penalty due to range.

I just picked aiming because it came to mind.  The point is that both 
exist (and, in fact, if you are very close you can get a bonus due to 
range).  However, PC seek to push the envelope and will, naturally, 
do the harder things.

>   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case,
>since if you don't aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!

Only at low skill.

>   There are
>also about 20 other penalties, at least a few of which apply in any
>given situation.

I'm not sure at all that anyone has a complete list of penalties and bonsuses.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:11:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <F232U51NssZWne0P5xE00016c7f@hotmail.com>

Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
> >
> >Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" 
> >anywhere in the canon?
>
>"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an
>early JTAS that may help you think about this problem.

My work isn't canon, but I've worked out some ideas for how
a space pirate ship might function...two essays, at the top
of my Traveller web page.

http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <003001c1b0a1$638a0f20$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:06 AM 02/08/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > Hello Folks,
> >   I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
> > converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For
>example:
> >
>I think the Naval Architecture articles Christopher Thrash wrote for JTAS
>include GT stats for the letter-coded meson guns that appear in High Guard.

Unfortunately - these weapons, if I recall correctly - are WAY too powerful 
to emulate their effects in HIGH GUARD's rules.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:37:48 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>; from ethan.henry@sitraka.com on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com> <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net> <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20020208143748.A29979@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
> some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> reality.

The latter is what I meant--not someone just being generally nasty
because he's on drugs.  The problem is when the drug interferes with
the normal functioning of things and numbs him.  Alcohol does it; I
don't doubt that other drugs do as well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:33:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013203989.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
> For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
> There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.

Sure.  OTOH, from FBI statistics the use of guns in crime seems to map fairly
closely to the number of pawn shops with gun dealing licenses in the area,
which suggests that the average criminal isn't too sophisticated...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:37:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:37:25 -0900
Subject: [TML] Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale
 (long)  )
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C64450F.3A76602B@gci.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote

>I consigned them to the "whatever" pile after their MT 
> jump fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all 
> it's jump fuel for a jump of ANY length because the 
> engines were "tuned" to operate at their maximum rating. 

This wasn't merely a DGP thing. Early versions of CT
clearly established this as canon as well. Take a good 
look a _first_edition_ copy of Book 2:

"A jump drive requires fuel to make one jump (_regardless_
_of_jump_number_) based on the formula: 0.1MJn where M
equals the mass displacement of the starship and Jn equals
the jump number of the drive.... Jump fuel requirements
are based on the jump number rather than the size of 
the jump actually taken." - CT Book 2 (1st ed) Page 6 (1977)

This was not altered until  later. [Note that the recent big 
floppy books reprint the second edition.]

> So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's onboard jump 
> fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
>      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!

Yes, per the earliest GDW canon. The rules weren't changed
until later. Second Ed (1981) gives the new rule which, IIRC,
first appeared in High Guard Book 5 first edition page 23-4
(1979) and was repeated in Book 5 2nd ed (1980) p 22-3.

> In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of 
> published designs.  

No. GDW did that. :)

[I find it odd that a MT person such as myself has to
cite CT canon. Where's Mr. Hudson when you need him?]

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:25:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:25:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F79uHdLZ03xv3Ho8Xu1000173eb@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I consigned [DGP] to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump
>fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel
>for a jump of ANY length because the engines were "tuned" to
>operate at their maximum rating.
>So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's
>onboard jump fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
>      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!

Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors
allow a ship to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps
less than her maximum jump rating - meaning, of course, that the
default in CT once was that all fuel gets burned.  I don't have
a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, but I wouldn't be
surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as well.

DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:55:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:55:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013203989.7419.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208165210.00a74890@mail.charter.net>

At 01:33 PM 2/8/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
> > For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
> > There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.
>Sure.  OTOH, from FBI statistics the use of guns in crime seems to map fairly
>closely to the number of pawn shops with gun dealing licenses in the area,
>which suggests that the average criminal isn't too sophisticated...

Hmmm....I was thinking of the ATF's CUE reports that showed 60% of illegal 
handguns in D.C. (which has *no* legal firearm distribution at all) came 
from inside the D.C. limits.  It was a 40%/20% split on 'obtained from the 
Police' and manufactured locally.  I don't remember off the top of my head 
which was which.



-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:30:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:30:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013203829.3010.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:

> Unfortunately - these weapons, if I recall correctly - are WAY too powerful
>  to emulate their effects in HIGH GUARD's rules.

Nah, you've got it backwards.  Larger meson guns in High Guard are basically
guaranteed kills on anything they hit, and the weapons in GT are nowhere near
that lethal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:58:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:58:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202082242470.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"jeffb@ebtech.net" wirtes:
>Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the
>atmosphere?

Quite right. A mistake on my part. I've always thought of Mora's taint as
an industrial one (when I wrote up Mora for Year 100, I gave it an
untainted atmosphere), so I've thought of the taint as something akin to
what we have on Earth today. May affect some of the biggest cities on a
bad day, but generally not to be taken into consideration. But the article
in JTAS#10 does not make such distinctions. To it a taint is a taint is a
taint. So Mora and Trin only have 5,000 battalions each, which makes
for 400 battalions each available for off-duty activity. This seems to
jibe well with the two 500-15 armies that show up in the reinforcements
in FFW.

Funnily enough it is GF that may give Mora those 50,000 battalions after
all (well, thereabouts; GF also introduces other adjustments for things
like high hydrographics percentage and local attitudes). GF allows for
ignoring an atmospheric taint.

>Douglas Berry writes:

>It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
>and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
>planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
>planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
>organized for off-planet movement.

So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:59:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Missing Persons Report
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208165558.01de2e18@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, "jim" <bempath@iserv.net> asked:
>Whatever happened to David Golden?

I'm not sure; I haven't heard from him in a while.  The last time we 
corresponded (a year or so ago), he was still in the Air Force, and was 
being moved to a new assignment.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:58:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208143748.A29979@4dv.net>
References: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
 <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
 <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>
 <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
 <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208165540.00a7b1e8@mail.charter.net>

At 02:37 PM 2/8/2002 -0700, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> > My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> > stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of
> > some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> > reality.

A good deal of "drug-related crime" is also Billy busting a cap in Al's 
head to keep Al from selling crack on *his* corner.
In the crack trade this is the preferred method of reducing market pressure.
This is also responsible for a good chunk of the firearm related violent 
crime in the US.

You can have a lot of fun getting PCs in the middle of such gang wars.

>The latter is what I meant--not someone just being generally nasty
>because he's on drugs.  The problem is when the drug interferes with
>the normal functioning of things and numbs him.  Alcohol does it; I
>don't doubt that other drugs do as well.

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:31:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:31:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Essay on Imperial Net
References: <3C644F8F.F5A1176E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6451B6.56C365E5@mindspring.com>



alan spik wrote:
<Snip> of excellent material written by James Ramsey in a post to the TML edited
for my ease of reading and also for spelling
I thought I was sending that to myself for my personal use. Sorry.

Obtrav: How many Vargar does it take to change a light bulb?
Grrrrrgh! Aieeeeee! Owoooooooooo! ( Sound of rending flesh)
Zzuoughzz grzh Vargzz (trans. I hate Vargar jokes)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:58:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Gearhead question
References: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1b0f4$2b6172c0$c580f1cf@computer>

I'm attempting to develop my own vehicle/starship design system.  But, I'm
no gearhead or physicist, just a game player.  I need some links to increase
my knowledge of current and future power and propulsion systems.  Or if
someone is feeling very industrious, a list of possible
powerplants/propulsion systems with their output (mw) per volume and fuel
consumption would be nice :)  I'll give you credit on my project if it's
ever completed :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:03:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208230552.TXYK319.dorsey@link>

Hear, hear!  I couldn't agree more with Mr. Johnson!

And I'm not some knee-jerk liberal, either.  I think firearms are really
fun and nifty, for instance.  I proudly did six years of military service
and have more ancestors than I can enumerate who had distinguished military
careers.

We shouldn't mistrust the military because we think the brass is lying to
us.  (Although that disturbingly often turns out to be true.)  More often
it's just a matter of good intentions gone wrong, or of conflict of
interest.  Other things too.

I wish I had the exact quote from President Eisenhower, I believe it was
his final State of the Union address(?).  He warned us that the biggest
threat to our country was the "military-industrial complex".  That's not
just President but also General Eisenhower talking, thank you.  And head of
the Republican Party.  Certainly not a knee-jerk liberal.  And I think he'd
back up Mr. Johnson here.

Gotta go finish writing up my barbarian doctor now, or Tod will kill me.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 11:01:13 -0700, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> typed:
>>>
If there is mistrust of the government or military sources, believe me, 
it has been earned; it is not just some knee-jerk reaction of the 
obligatorily left-wing press.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:53:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:53:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208175151.01e0e808@mail.qrc.com>


>On

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
>important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies [...]

I thought that everyone knew that the truth is our most precious resource.

(and that therefore, it should be used sparingly, if at all).  ;-)


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:16:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Re, your comments below.

  Typically, in peacetime, most 'real' military units
will be manned at approx. 70-80% of their max TO[Table
of Organization].

  Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
apply:

  Fire Team:   4 men
  Squad:      12 men
  Platoon:    40 men
  Company:   180 men
  Battalion: 900 men (Support companies tend to be 
                      larger)
  Regiment: 2000 men
  Brigade:  6000 men
  Division: 10-20K men 

  Brigade's are the last level where organization is
fairly standardized; above that, the major differences
are in /what/ the macro-org is supposed to do.

  Note that between the Battalion and Brigade levels,
the personnel figures are fairly well fixed, no matter
what the units' actual mission. This is due to the
existence of necessary support units that are manpower
heavy.

  Note, also, that the above is for a 'peacetime
establishment'; after a few months of serious warfare,
the above units will probably retain their names only.
In real manpower, they will usually be about one step
down...with a concommitant loss of combat power.

   MACessna
  >>
--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> > Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support
> weapon like a light machine
> > gun. 
> > 
> > Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
> So could be 8-12 men
> > 
> > Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
> Could be 24-48 men
> > 
> > Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
> Could be 72-192 men
> > 
> > Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant
> Colonel
> Could be 288-960 men
> > 
> > Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel
> Could be 864-3840 men
> > 
> > Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or
> Brigadier General
> Could be 1728-11,520 men
> > 
> > Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General
> Could be 5184-46,080 men
> > 
> > Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General
> Could be 15,552-230,400 men
> > 
> > Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.
> Could be 31,104-921,600 men
> 
> What's the actual range in sizes of various units? 
> I assume it would be rare
> to have a brigade with more men than an army, but
> the formulations you give
> allow it...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:14:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Gearhead question
Message-ID: <F114emYewQ1N8Pik3Y800003a1a@hotmail.com>

>From: "The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com>
>I'm attempting to develop my own vehicle/starship design system.  But, I'm
>no gearhead or physicist, just a game player.  I need some links to 
>increase
>my knowledge of current and future power and propulsion systems.


Try this URLs for the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project website:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/

Scroll down to near the bottom of the page, and you'll find some useful 
links (there's some stuff on the site itself too, but most of it is rather 
general and vague).

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:04:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

"Justin Bunnell" <jbunnell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal
> and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> 1993-1998.  We decided to make a hit location chart using the
> information it contained.  In assault cases of gunshot wounds the
> following hit locations were given:
> 
> Report Results
> Head / Neck - 14%
> Arm / Hand - 13%
> Leg / Foot - 33%
> Upper Trunk - 21%
> Lower Trunk - 16%
> Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)
> 
> Hit Location Table (d12)
> 1:		Head
> 2: 		Right Arm
> 3: 		Left Arm
> 4-6: 		Chest
> 7: 		Abdomen
> 8: 		Groin
> 9-10: 	Left Leg
> 11-12: 	Right Leg
> 
> Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
> figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get
> hit more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier
> to keep the PCs alive by not hitting them there.

Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:

1: Head
2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
5 Left leg
6 Right leg

Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard 
urban firefights should be something on the order of:

If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a 
1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this 
roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.

I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed 
is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll 
1D12, you only hit on a 1.     

However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting, 
sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time 
to aim carefully.
 
-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:50:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <000901c1b0b8$ea952b00$8500a8c0@imogen> from "Peter L.S. Trevor" at Feb 07, 2002 10:43:23 AM
Message-ID: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>

Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
preprogrammed machinery."

It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
sort having this innate ability?

I don't want to influence the jury, so I won't say anything
more, but for those of you who would try to run Traveller as
a hard science campaign, how would you handle this race?
Keep them as is? Degrade their abilities? Toss them out?

Speak o' wise ones... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:55:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:55:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B889A555.240E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 11:01 AM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 08/02/02 15:06:58 GMT Standard Time,
> webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> 
>>> Some comments:-
>>> 
>>> Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
>>> One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
>>> damage the bladder <g>.
>> 
>> Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.
>> 
>> Tod
>> 
> 
> Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Charles

Thanks.  I already changed it to spleen.  You know, that organ that always
seems to get damaged in ca accidents.  Also a favorite of movie organs to
get hit.

"How's he doing, doc?"
"He was hit in the spleen.  We had to remove it. It's ok, he can live
without it."

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:51:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> >Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
> >better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.
> 
> But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being 
> _the_ one.

I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but increasing the number of
skills *penalises* the dedicated trading character compared to the
dilettante.

Consider a Trader character spending 36 points on primary career
skills.  With 3 skills, they can put 12 points into each one for IQ+5
each.  Another character might put 12 points total into trading skills
for IQ+1 level each, 4 levels worse than the trader.  (e.g. skill 17
vs 13).

Now consider a sourcebook that introduces 3 new skills for a total of
6.  The Trader gets IQ+2 in each, the other gets IQ level.  The gap
has narrowed to only 2 skill levels.  (e.g. skill 14 vs 12).  So the
character that used to be much better than the dilettante is now only
marginally better.  Furthermore, it is now possible for the secondary
to be *better* than the primary trader in at least one area of trading
and probably two.

This, plus the fact that the primary trader has lost 3 levels of
competence, is why I really dislike sourcebooks that split up existing
skills.


> Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track
> of the point values of my NPCs.

Whether you keep track of them or not, they still have them.  I don't
normally keep track of individual points either, but I do make sure
that on average they conform to the suggested totals.  I've been in
far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX 12, Combat
Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30 points.


> And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead
> them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.

I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd have such an NPC with less
frequency than one with higher strength in that job. (By curious
coincidence, I knew someone who fitted that description a few years
ago)


> >   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case, since if you don't
> >aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!
> 
> Only at low skill.

"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?

In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or vehicle
movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a median about
-8.  Snap shot numbers tend to be around the 10-12 mark for pistols,
SMGs and shotguns, so more than half the time you need a skill of at
least 18 to avoid incurring a further -4 snap shot penalty.

That's without anything tricky like firing while walking or running,
recoil penalties, excluding any particularly unusual (and penalty
laden) situations I've played, and not using the various psychological
penalties introduced in GURPS High-Tech which would often make it much
worse still.


More than ever, I'm convinced we play in totally different games.
It's interesting to compare experiences, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:39:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:39:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.

Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.

I'm not kidding.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:57:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B889A605.240E5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 3:04 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:
> 
> 1: Head
> 2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
> 3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
> 5 Left leg
> 6 Right leg
> 
> Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard
> urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> 
> If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a
> 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this
> roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> 
> I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed
> is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll
> 1D12, you only hit on a 1.
> 
> However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting,
> sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time
> to aim carefully.

Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty,
it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:57:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:57:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202082242470.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208155403.009f9530@mindspring.com>

At 10:58 PM 2/8/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >Douglas Berry writes:
>
> >It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
> >and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
> >planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
> >planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
> >organized for off-planet movement.
>
>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?

No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary 
defense force.  The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the 
worlds of the subsector.  They are expected to be ready at all times for 
duty on any world.  They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are 
discussed on page 16 of GF.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:16:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:16:16 EST
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
Message-ID: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I didn't have 
any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of cargo is supposed to be.
   Also, what is the storage capacity of a missile turret. I'm thinking I 
read a turret can store 12 missles, but I also seem to remember there being a 
reference for storage of either 3 or 4 missiles.
   Thanks
  -Ken-
 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:43:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020208.191851.-320489.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> >Say like the FUZION System?
> 
> I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that 
> system like?

FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
(i.e. Champions).


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:20:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:20:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013214045.6212.ajackson@ping>

MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    Hi gang,
>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I didn't have 
> any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of cargo is supposed to
> be. 
Real-world figure is about 5 tons/dton for typical ship-based freight (one
register ton is 100 cf or 0.2 dtons).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:24:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020208.191851.-320489.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013214285.4086.ajackson@ping>

knightsky@juno.com writes:
> > >Say like the FUZION System?
> > 
> > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that 
> > system like?
> 
> FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> (i.e. Champions).

And meshed rather poorly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:49:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <F79uHdLZ03xv3Ho8Xu1000173eb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C647232.F81E0822@mb.sympatico.ca>

The first edition of Traveller had ships using their full fuel allocation, 1st
ed. HG had the jump governor.  By Deluxe Traveller/Traveller BookHG 2ed that
had changed, allowing fuel used to be based on jump#.
Douglas

Walt Smith wrote:

> Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I consigned [DGP] to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump
> >fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel
> >for a jump of ANY length because the engines were "tuned" to
> >operate at their maximum rating.
> >So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's
> >onboard jump fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
> >      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!
>
> Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
> *not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors
> allow a ship to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps
> less than her maximum jump rating - meaning, of course, that the
> default in CT once was that all fuel gets burned.  I don't have
> a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as well.
>
> DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
> up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own.
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:40:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b88a1fde9b6a@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:50 PM -0800 2/8/02, jimv wrote:
>Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
>the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
>a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
>resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
>mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
>combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
>complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
>produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
>preprogrammed machinery."
>
>It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
>Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
>sort having this innate ability?

Hard to say.  It isn't theoretically impossible (cells are, after 
all, machines of a kind).  As to making life, any cell that divides, 
and plant the produces seeds, etc make life.  I don't know if I would 
call what the sheol does "artificial" life except maybe to the degree 
that the new organisms aren't copies of themselves or permutations of 
themselves and a mate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:46:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013214045.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>

 I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
has gone through several incarnations and survived as
a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
Is it the common and continually growing background?
What is it in you opinion?
 For myself, I like the fact that it doesn't just give
you stats - all of the versions give you a design
sequence showing you how to generate those stats. This
was revolutionary when I found it in the 1980s because
it gave gamers the freedom to both customize their
universe and have it be compatible with others.

Whopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:57:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 01:57:47 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013214285.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEPECEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> > > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that
> > > system like?
> >
> > FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> > (i.e. Champions).
>
> And meshed rather poorly.

Being a co-author of a supplement for Fuzion (and thus having some
experience with the workings of the system), I'd say that "poorly" is not
exactly the term that applies here. It's more like "meshed like $&%#@".

IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion (imagine you
combine the realism of AD&D1 with the elegance of Rolemaster and simplicity
of Chivalry and Sorcery) and does not even have a coherent skill mechanic.

Oh - before someone asks: I like Interlock. That's how I became introduced
to Fuzion and helped writing that thingie.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:44:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:44:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013219050.2767.ajackson@ping>

Mark F. Cook writes:

> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.

Well, if they really heard sirens that soon, one might suspect a setup...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:32:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>

Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:

>ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
>
>GM: He grabs your gun.
>PC: What!? I jump him!
>GM: He raises the gun...
>PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
>GM: And blows his brains out.
>PC & PC 2: ohshit.
>GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
>
>Ethan

Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:53:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:53:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
Message-ID: <F232ULd1irS7rJT7vj90001704a@hotmail.com>

Mark F. Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:
>
>Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
>Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
>suicide should be fired.

Even so, the PC's may be in trouble (depending on local
laws) for something like negligence, reckless endangerment,
accessory, firearms offenses, etc.  They may have just wanted
to talk to the recently deceased, now they're at risk of
talking to the authorities for the next couple of years.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:56:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:56:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B889C1B0.1F53%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/8/02 4:46 PM, "Jeff Hopper" <jeff37923@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What is it in you opinion?

In short, the rich background.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:03:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:03:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B889ADB3.24115%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 3:39 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> 
> I'm not kidding.
> 

Well, if you roll spleen on the organs table, it's a flesh wound.  We had a
PC who had lost a kidney.  Later on she had several kidney hits, but always
the one that was gone.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:09:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202090258310.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>I wrote:
>>>Douglas Berry writes:
>>
>>>It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
>>>and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
>>>planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
>>>planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
>>>organized for off-planet movement.
>>
>>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
>>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?
>
>No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary
>defense force.

So Mora's army isn't set up or organized for off-planet movement but still
has a number of troops available for off-world activities?

>The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the worlds of the
>subsector. They are expected to be ready at all times for duty on any world.
>They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are discussed on page 16 of GF.

But colonial forces ARE Imperial forces. Well, colonial _squadrons_ are
subsector forces anyway. I suppose that strictly speaking we have no proof
that the word isn't used differently about troops. It seems rather odd,
though. Only, if that is the case, where are the subsector troops in FFW?
We have a smattering of marines, 16 named colonial troops and 14 numbered
colonial troops. Where are the Unified Armies?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:04:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:04:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202081735.g18HZPs26009@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C644B66.2304A548@together.net>

> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:29:32 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> >
> >       How soon they forget...
> >
> >       Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
> > (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
> > expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
> > Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
> > sitting on my gaming shelf).
> 
> Hmmm. methinks I'd like to pay visit to this gaming shelf....I have Ogre
> somewhere at home, and I have the book to Melee, again, buried somwhere
> at home but I haven't seen it in ages.
> 
> Didn't Car Wars originate in thsi format, too?
> 

	Yes. After Steve left Metagaming (and taking Ogre/GEV and The Space
Gamer with him) and started Steve Jackson Games, he liked the Microgame
format so much he produced several more: Raid on Iran, Kung Fu 2100 (the
version from the Space gamer is on my shelf), One Page Bulge, Battlesuit
(also from Space Gamer), Car Wars (the original, plus some expansions).
Car Wars was a big hit and they kept producing expansion sets for it.

	If you want a simple vehicle design system (dragging this back on
topic), you really can't beat Car Wars. The final expansions produced
cars, trucks, motorcycles, 18 wheelers, buses, RVs, boats, planes,
hovercraft, race cars, and a whole slew of cool equipment and weapons. 

	My Gaming shelf is an odd mixture. There's a whole bunch of stuff from
the 80s (Traveller, AD&D and SGJ mostly), and I seem to have missed
buying anything gaming related for most of the 90s. And now I've started
again, and back filling a few important bits of the collections. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:29:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:29:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202081829000.387-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:14:30 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Military Units


>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>Subject: Military Units
>
>Howdy
>
>Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>
>(1) Military Units
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>tanks would you get in armoured units ?
>
>The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
>squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as
>the command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

In Britain (and for the mostpart Australia, Canada, India etc.)

A section (squad in the US) is 2x fireteams of usually 4 men. Each is built
around a weapon (a LMG in modern armies) plus riflemen/ grenadiers. The
section commander would be a Corporal, who commands the 1st fireteam
(Charlie), a Lance Corporal is the second in command (2ic) and commands the
second fireteam (Delta).

The platoon is 3 sections (24 men) plus the platoon commander (a
Lieutenant), platoon sergeant (a Sergeant), platoon signaller and a 2 man
51mm Mortar team for a total of 29 men. Under the new organisation, a fire
support section will be created with 2x2 man GPMG teams, lead by the no1
mortar man, the no2 mortar man becoming platoon runner for an organisation
of 33 men. If a mechanised formation this would have 4 APCs. In an Armoured
unit the platoon is called a troop and consists of 4 Tanks and their crews.

The company is 3 rifle platoons plus admin elements totally ~100 men,
commanded by a Major with a Captain as 2ic, the senior NCO is a Company
Sergeant Major. This has ~14 APCs (12 in the platoons plus the OC and 2ics
wagons), plus other vehicles (the Company Quartermaster Sergeants wagon
etc.). An armoured company is called a Squadron and is currently 14 tanks
(although 10 years ago was 18)

The battalion is 3 rifle companies plus admin and support elements. The
support company has a 81mm Mortar platoon (6-9x 81mm Mortar, commanded by a
captain), an Anti-Tank platoon (12 MILAN), an Assault Pioneer platoon (the
battalions integral assault engineers) and a Recce platoon (8x Light
Tanks), all commanded by captains, with a captain as 2ic and a major in
command. An armoured battalion is known as a Regiment. Infantry Regiments
are not fighting formations, but administrative formations containing a
number of battalions (currently the Parachute Regiment is largest with 3
Regular and 1 TA battalion, followed by the PWRR with 2 regular battalions,
1 TA battalion and 2 TA companies)

Total strength of a Warrior platoon is 741 all ranks, 52 Warriors, 12 Milan
Posts, 21 FV-432 (an older APC used in the utility role) and 8x Sabre light
tanks. A light role battalion is 620 all ranks.

An armoured brigade is 2x Armoured Regiments, 2x Infantry Battalions, an
Artillery Regiment (32x AS-90 155mm Howitzers, a Battalion equivalent), an
Army Air Corps detatchment (usually 13 Helicopters), a Logistics Squadron
(18x Heavy Lift Vehicles each capable of carrying 50 tons of stores), a
Field Ambulance detatchment, a REME workshop (~maintenance company),
Engineer Squadron, Swingfire Troop (Long Range AT weapons), Javelin Battery
(~company, 36x SAM firing posts), a Provost unit (~company of MPs) and an
armoured recce squadron.

This is a formation is ~4,500 men, with over 100 tanks (116) and over 100
APCs (104). It is a fully realised fighting unit, capable of being deployed
largely independently and is commanded by a Brigadier.

1st Armoured Division has 3 armoured brigades (plus additional elements)
and a strength of 17,200.

A Corps is no longer a fixed command in most armies, but a field command to
which Divisions and other units are assigned. During Market Garden in WW2,
XXX Corps was over 200,000 men strong, but afterwards dropped to around
20,000, before being reassigned divisions for another operation.

>(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

Have a look at www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/index.htm several there.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
 <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330104b88a3777afda@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:28 AM -0700 2/7/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>
>>
>>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
>>
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>>meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>>fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate 
>government by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in 
>the first place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
>
>The US certainly did not recognize them.
>
>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...

Actually, I read on Cnn.com that the US has decided to classify 
Taliban (but not Al-Queda(sp?)) as POW's.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:33:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:51 AM +1100 2/9/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  >Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
>>  >better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.
>>
>>  But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being
>>  _the_ one.
>
>I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but increasing the number of
>skills *penalises* the dedicated trading character compared to the
>dilettante.

I've GM and played a number of charcter types.  I made up a GURPS 
Traveller campaign before there was anything published.  Increasing 
the number of skills penalitzes both.  As you force more of a 
commitment to a character type, the fewer dillitants you can have.

>
>Consider a Trader character spending 36 points on primary career
>skills.  With 3 skills, they can put 12 points into each one for IQ+5
>each.  Another character might put 12 points total into trading skills
>for IQ+1 level each, 4 levels worse than the trader.  (e.g. skill 17
>vs 13).
>
>Now consider a sourcebook that introduces 3 new skills for a total of
>6.  The Trader gets IQ+2 in each, the other gets IQ level.  The gap
>has narrowed to only 2 skill levels.  (e.g. skill 14 vs 12).  So the
>character that used to be much better than the dilettante is now only
>marginally better.  Furthermore, it is now possible for the secondary
>to be *better* than the primary trader in at least one area of trading
>and probably two.

First of all, all those skills are never needed equally.  You vary 
how many points you put them into them.  Also, the "dilettante" I'm 
talking about is one that figures that they can put a point or so 
into one or two skills and do that in pinch.  Adding more skills 
_does_ lessen this sort of thing.

>  > Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track
>>  of the point values of my NPCs.
>
>Whether you keep track of them or not, they still have them.  I don't
>normally keep track of individual points either, but I do make sure
>that on average they conform to the suggested totals.  I've been in
>far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX 12, Combat
>Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30 points.

Sounds OK to me.  Maybe "high typical".  That would be a typical 
experenced fighter (all fighters probably develop combat reflexes. 
There has been a lot of debate in GURPS how much someone with a x 
years experience should have for points in skill (a pointless 
exercise in my mind) but 30 can be justified for someone who has been 
around a few years.  DX 12 is fine (clumsy people are, IMO, not going 
to go into the marines, etc.)

>  > And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead
>>  them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.
>
>I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd have such an NPC with less
>frequency than one with higher strength in that job. (By curious
>coincidence, I knew someone who fitted that description a few years
>ago)

And they would have the work harder to do the job.  You might have 
someone with IQ 10 be a doctor but they would have to work harder 
(reflected in more character points) and/or not be as good a doctor.

>  > >   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case, since if you don't
>>  >aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!
>>
>>  Only at low skill.
>
>"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?

Hardly, the base snap shot skill for most ranged weapons is much less.

>
>In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
>concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or vehicle
>movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a median about
>-8.  Snap shot numbers tend to be around the 10-12 mark for pistols,
>SMGs and shotguns, so more than half the time you need a skill of at
>least 18 to avoid incurring a further -4 snap shot penalty.

Thats because the players could do it.  If they had lower skill 
penalties, they would wait for more favorable conditions.  That is 
one reason that players want higher skill, so they can do the 
difficult stuff.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:00:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> > Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard
> > urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> > 
> > If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a
> > 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this
> > roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> > 
> > I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed
> > is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll
> > 1D12, you only hit on a 1.

> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per
> casualty, it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

True, the difference between military and FBI data is likely because 
of the fact that most urban fire fights involving the police or the FBI 
are at a range of 20 ft. or less.  Also, I am over-estimating a bit, 
IIRC, the actual chance is about 10%.  Also, most shots don't kill, 
in fact IIRC, less than 25% actually kill or incapacitate the target 
during the fire fight.  The statistics I've read essentially look like 
people get hit several times by bullets that don't do much (at the 
time) and then they get hit in the head, heart, or some similarly 
vital area and then fall down and die in short order.

OTOH, combat with shotguns or high powered rifles would produce 
far different results wrt lethality.  

The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

>From what I've seen, used in this fashion, the term "realistic" 
essentially means that the resolution system accurately simulates 
the various action-oriented TV show and films that have formed 
most gamers images of combat.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:14:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:14:44 +1100
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
References: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020209141444.B26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I
> didn't have any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of
> cargo is supposed to be.

Typically about 5 tonnes/dton, I believe.  I can't find a reference
offhand, though :(

Some items may be lower than 1 tonne/dton, while bulk liquids (in
containers) would routinely go over 10 tonnes/dton.


>    Also, what is the storage capacity of a missile turret. I'm thinking I 
> read a turret can store 12 missles, but I also seem to remember there being a 
> reference for storage of either 3 or 4 missiles.

A GURPS missile rack includes space for 77 missiles.  A turret can
hold up to 3 racks for a total of 231 missiles.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 21:24:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <20020208184644.SISR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C649677.156DEF3F@premier.net>



Laning wrote:
> 
> No attribution necessary.  It's only a sig, and the Internet equivalent of
> a cheap witticism cooked up at a cocktail party.  :->
> 
> If you really prefer to have an attribution, then either:
> Laning;
> Laning Polatty, or;
> Laning of the TML
> seem like suitable possibilities.  But leave my email address out of it,
> please.  :->

What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:31:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000701c1b11a$33042420$2f7de40c@loki>

Traveller is great 'cause it is wide open.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2236@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Say like the FUZION System?
<

FUZION is a terrific system - and the vehicle design rules are probably the
best there is - for gearheads AND non-gearheads!

Unfortunately, the pollution of the HERO powers system (and all the
attendant problems) seems to have doomed this excellent design. 
The HERO players don't want FUZION and the Cyberpunk/Interlock players dont
want the Champions powers. A shame really. 

You probably know about the Atomik rules, but you might not know about this
excellent scifi resource:
http://www.mecha.com/~conkle/lightspeed/links.html

Good luck - I'd love to see what you come up with! Solomani Mechas! 

>>>>I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that
system 
>>>>like?

Take the Cyberpunk Interlock rules and combine them with the Champions
Power rules to make a new universal and generic system. Allow the
liscensing to be very unrestrictive to allow anyone to publish FUZION
products.





Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2238@compuserve.com>

I rather like that game myself!

Launch/Life Boat (20 ton) S1: TL0, PD = 2 (5), H=1, BP 3, MCr14
Ship's Boat (30 ton) S2: TL0, PD=12 (9), H=2, B=1, BP 15, MCr16
Slow Boat (30 ton)  S3: TL0, PD = 9 (9), H=2, BP 11, MCr15
Pinnace (40 ton) S4: TL0, PD=12 (15), H=3, B=1, BP 16, MCr20
Slow Pinnace (40 ton) S5: TL0, PD = 9 (15), H=4, B=1, BP 14, MCr18
Module Cutter (50 ton) S6: TL0, PD=12 (15), H=3, B=1, BP 16, MCr28
a. ATV Module, MCr18, b. Fuel Module, MCr1, c. Open Module, MCr2
Shuttle (95 ton) S7: TL0, PD=12 (9), H=8, BP 20, MCr33
Fighter (10 ton) S8: TL0, PD = 10 (12), H=1, B=1, BP 12, MCr18

Scout "Type S" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B=1, T=1, M=1 (3), SR = 1 (S1)
CR = 0 (L, T, P2, M1, M, RF, AM, M, J1, J2, N), BP 20, MCr29.43

Scout/Courier "Type J" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B=1, SC = 1, SR = 1 (S1)
CR = 0 (L, T, P3, M2, AM, J2, N), BP 19, MCr29.43

Scout/Escort "Type J" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B1=1, B2=1
CR = 0 (T, P1, P2, AE, RF, M, J1, N), BP 18, MCr29.43

Free Trader "Type A" class, 200 ton Hypership
H2: TL0, PD = 13, G = 1, Q=2, H=8, T=1, M=1 (3), SR = 1 (S2)
C1=0 (T, L, G, AE, RF, AM, M, J1, N), BP 27, MCr37.08

Subsidized Merchant  Transport, 400 ton Hypership
H3: TL0, PD = 15, G = 1, Q=2, H=20, SR = 1 (S1), 
C1=0 (AE M, J1, N), BP 39, MCr101.03

Subsidized Merchant  Armed, 400 ton Hypership
H3: TL0, PD = 15, G = 1, Q=2, H=20, SR = 1 (S1), B=1, SC = 1, 
C2=0 (T, L, P3, G M1, AE, RF, AM M, J1, N), BP 41, MCr101.03

Subsidized Liner, 600 ton Hypership
H4: TL0, PD = 16, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, SR = 1 (S1), H=13, BP 38, MCr236.87

Yacht, 200 ton Hypership
H5: TL0, PD = 13, G = 1, Q=2, SR = 1 (S2), H=2, B=1, SC = 1
CR = 0 (T, L AE, AM M, J1, N), BP 21, MCr51.057

Mercenary Cruiser, 800 ton Hypership
H6: TL0, PD = 17, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, SR = 3 (S1, S6b, S6c), H=8, T=1, M=4
(12), 
C3=0 (P1, P2 M1, AE, RF, AM M, J1, J2, N), BP  41, MCr445.95

Patrol Cruiser, 400 tons
H7: TL0, PD = 16, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, H=5, B1 = 3, B2=3, T=2, M=2 (6), SR = 1
(S2), SC = 1, CS = 0 (T, L, G, P1, P3, P4, S1 M1 AE, RF M, J1, J2, N), BP 
41, MCr221.04

Laboratory Ship, 400 ton Hypership
H8: TL0, PD = 15, G = 2, Q=2, SR = 1 (S4), H=3, BP 23, MCr158.98

Safari Ship, 200 ton Hypership
H9: TL0, PD = 13, G = 2, Q=2, SR = 1 (S1), H=1, BP 19, MCr81.08

Corsair, 400 ton Hypership
H10: TL0, PD =15, G=2, Q=2, H=16, B1=1, B2=1, T=1, M=4 (12), SR = 1 (S4), 
C2=0 (P4, G, T, S2, L, M3, AE, RF, AM, M, J2, N), BP 43, MCr ???

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <200202082243_MC3-F155-222E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I found my stack of Challenge magazines after going though my bookshelf a 
little more thoroughly. The adventure in question is "The Madness Effect", 
written by Paul Lukas and published in Challenge 75 <

Thanks! I'll update the list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:53:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b88a3f05764b@[143.232.119.186]>

I'm one of those who think it would defined on each world.  (Thought, 
of course, laws that result in signicant killing of visitors would 
get the world an Amber classification or and interdiction).  After 
all, murder in the US isn't a federal crimes (except in some special 
circumstances) and is prosecuted by the states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:00:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:00:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Rebellious Local worlds.
In-Reply-To: <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
 <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <p04330108b88a3fc6a3ea@[143.232.119.186]>

Didn't the Imperium bombard as world in, or near, Llelish for being 
rebellious?  There are very few mentions of succession of local 
worlds.

IMO, the Imperium has the ability to crush a local world if it so 
chooses.  Of course that requires a lot of effort.  I think local 
world can get away with "some" as long as they don't push too far 
that the Imperium decides it is worth the effort of slapping them 
down.  Thought the local world should include the cost of lesser 
Imperial pressures (Amber/Red Classifications, support for 
competitors, etc.) as a price for their complaining.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:26:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Journalists in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <200201202214.g0KMEM918382@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200201202214.g0KMEM918382@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb88a4506e1d3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:14 PM -0600 1/20/02, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 01/11/02 at 07:20 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
><grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>ObTrav - To what lengths would the 3I go to to hide warship losses?
>>There  is no First Amendment and journalists are pretty much at the
>>mercy of  whatever polity they anger.
>
>While this is true, it is also possible to play the 3I as with a
>remote and mostly indifferent government that would be slow to respond
>to threats, especially threats that didn't have major and direct
>effects on intersteller trade. In an environment like that a
>"travelling journalist" could get away with muckraking, expose's,
>scandalizing, and downright security breeches...if they were careful.
>Concentrate on local and regional things (less likely to bring the
>real weight of the 3I down on you, disquise your identity (always
>publish under a pseudonym and with a "public face" that doesn't match
>your own, travel incogneto and with coverstories), find and live in a
>safe haven and don't foul your nest (no reporting on things in your
>home system and pick that home system with an eye to one that will
>protect you from extradition), keep on the move, and be prepared to
>either drop stories that are "too hot" or "for the good of the
>Imperium."
>
>You know I can see a campaign there, a team of journalists working on
>assignment, undercover, for some big media broker, especially, if they
>are the sort of journalists that can't help but get involved in the
>stories they are covering.

In the TAS news items there are some instances where reporters 
challenge Imperial officials (on reports of Ine Givar Activity). 
There seems to be _some_ independence, at least for influential 
organizations.  Either because there are reporting organizations who 
can withstand at least some pressure or because this kind of 
reporting is useful uo significant parts of society (for example, the 
nobility like how it helps them keep track of what the emperor is 
doing).
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2235@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.

Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
from the other books.

Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
wouldn't be a credibility gap.
<

Well, I actually totally agree with that. 

But in this case I mean that a simpler design system doesn't need to be
compatible with any PARTICULAR design system. 

You should be able to build all the Traveller ships with the Traveller
trade-offs. But trying to match a particular design system - rather than
the standard "Traveller" ships seems like a "requirements flaw" (I'm
betting there is enough people that understand that concept on this board!)


>>>>>>> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
>>>>>>> roleplaying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves
knowing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if
a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22
caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same
damage?

That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
How would  you like it if the only way to figure out how much damage the
pistol does is to derive it from the barrel length? Dont laugh until you've
read Aftermath! 

>>>>>Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into
a
>>>>>starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with

Great - tell me how many tons of what I can and can't put into the ship.
That's valuable, but surface area? That depends on what picture I use for
the ship! Using surface area is a clever idea, but hardpoints or tons are
much more 'Travelleresque'. Surface are can be 'fudged' - Traveller has
obviously not used this - they've used hardpoints. I think it's an
interesting idea, but not very playable/ workable. 

>>>>>You have deckplans for the _Tigress_-class?  If so, I'd like a copy.
;-)

Doesn't exist! No really....I've never heard of it! What is a Tigress-class
ship?

>>>>>Also, does your deckplan edict apply to starports and cities?  If so,
do
>>>>>you really have reasonably detailed layouts of all the cities in your
>>>>>campaign?

Actually, yes it does. And acutally yes I do! 

Judges Guild's Fifty Starports and lots of Cyberpunk modules help here. 

>>>>>Both cities and ships can play useful roles in a campaign without
having
>>>>>a detailed layout available.

Yes but I find that using the same ship and city designs has even more
useful roles. 

>>>>>Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
>>>>>system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
>>>>>ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
>>>>>these ships, you can't build it."  

So what - the GM can take away ANYTHING they want to! 

>>>>>I enjoy gearheading; you apparently
>>>>>don't.  Is your gaming happiness more important than mine?  

Well, as a matter of fact. Yes. To me it is! Gearheading is like miniature
painting. It's cool and sometimes it's useful, but a game shouldn't be
build around it (which is why Games Workshop doesn't make RPGs!) 

It's *another* hobby with some similarities. So yeah, do the roleplaying
tools first - then the gearhead tools IMHO.

>>>>>If we create
>>>>>simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to
make
>>>>>sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
>>>>>detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.

Yes, but that's VERY different than "fully compatible". I agree they should
involve similar tradeoffs and build the same kind of ships. I don't agree
that they should be FULLY compatible. That's seems like an engineering
misnomer. 

We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression that we
were talking about designing the simple system using everything in the
complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....

>>>>>Note also that an extremely simple design sequence is likely to have
>>>>>trouble with ships over a couple thousand dtons; designing an AHL, let
>>>>>alone a _Tigress_, with a simple design system is unlikely to give
>>>>>plausible results.

Hey, I never said it was easy! Okay, so let's not make it EXTREMELY simple.
Just the right amount of SIMPLER. 

>>>>>Details that you consider extraneous may well be vital to another
>>>>>campaign, and vice versa.  Whose details shall we dump, then?  

Hmmm. Let's see. I know. Mine! For the system that I want to use. Let's
dump those details. I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else. (Though I
think a 'middle-ground' Traveller system should be put in place). 

>>>>>Far better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details,
even if
>>>>>only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.

Not if those details *detract* from the usability of the system. The
details I mentioned losing are those that detract from using the system
IMHO. Remember, no one expects the gearhead to use a system that I will
like! But there's not much point if I wouldn't use it either!

I don't mind have those 'extraneous' details as optional add-on modules.
"Generic Hardpoint" versus "Detailed Hardpoint" for example. It's only when
I can't build a scout ship without measuring the surface area that I balk
(another exaggerated example). 

>>>>>For instance, in a merchant campaign, it may be sufficient simply to
>>>>>declare that military ships can normally detect merchants before the
>>>>>merchant can detect the military ship.  OTOH, in an Imperial Navy
>>>>>campaign, such rules-of-thumb are insufficient.  The quality of one
>>>>>ship's sensor suite over her opponent's may well spell the difference
>>>>>between which ship wins and which ship dies.

I didn't have any complaints about the way this was handled in QSSD. I dont
see them as being mutually exclusive.

Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
all. 

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:42:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:42:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202082242_MC3-F155-222D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
1) Sensor Capabilities -- 
2) Fuel Tonnage -- 
3) Price -- 

So far, I agree with this. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Some brave soul could
concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:

Choose a tech level
[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]<

I think Crew, Cargo and Fuel should also be variable.

>>>>Please keep tweaking and refining and continue to post updates.  I 
>>>>think this system is already a huge step in the right design-
>>>>philosophical direction towards something non-gearheads can 
>>>>comfortably use to produce ship designs that are still compatible the 
>>>>rough physical parameters of the Traveller rules, and I appluad you 
>>>>for devising it.
>>>>Trent

Yeah. What he said. 



Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:28:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:28:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <F78pfkNsjUHQHh2wLCV0000555a@hotmail.com>

>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
>  I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
>has gone through several incarnations and survived as
>a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
>people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
>it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
>Is it the common and continually growing background?
>What is it in you opinion?

I think what keeps bringing me back to Traveller is the simplicity and 
elegance of its ruleset.  It's very easy for a GM to get a game up and 
running quickly, and at the same time there's plenty of room to add 
additional rules however an individual GM sees fit.

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:44:32 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]> <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020209154432.C26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> I've GM and played a number of charcter types.  I made up a GURPS
> Traveller campaign before there was anything published.

Likewise here.


>  Increasing the number of skills penalitzes both.

I agree.  However, it penalizes the commited character more.


>  As you force more of a commitment to a character type, the fewer
> dillitants you can have.

What we appear to be disagreeing over is whether increasing the number
of skills forces more commitment to a character type.

I've more typically seen exactly the opposite.  As you increase the
number of skills, players who are not already committed to a character
type see an increase in the number of things their character *won't*
be able to do if they commit to a single-path character.  And so they
invest a few 0.5 and 1 points to be at least 'OK' in a larger number
of fields.  And they're rewarded for it, by being almost as good as
the committed characters.


> First of all, all those skills are never needed equally.  You vary
> how many points you put them into them.

That makes it even worse, since now the other members of the group are
probably better than you in at least one and probably two trading
skills, and trading is meant to be *your* strong point.


>  Also, the "dilettante" I'm talking about is one that figures that
> they can put a point or so into one or two skills and do that in
> pinch.

Same here.  Only it's more common in my experience to put a points in
skills that get used.  If trading uses 6 skills instead of 3, they
spread the same number of points across twice the skills.  Half the
points per skill means only one less skill level for *them*, but it's
far worse for the specialist; typically 3-4 levels worse.


>  Adding more skills _does_ lessen this sort of thing.

In your experience, not mine.  In my experience, it makes it *worse*.


> > I've been in far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX
> >12, Combat Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30
> >points.
>
> Sounds OK to me.  Maybe "high typical".  That would be a typical 
> experenced fighter

OK for a typical accountant, salesperson, housewife, or bus conductor
(all four examples seen in play)?  Or even a typical car thief?  When
I say "typical person", I do mean "typical person" and not "typical
Marine".


> >"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?
> 
> Hardly, the base snap shot skill for most ranged weapons is much less.

Did you perhaps not see the word "adjusted" in the rules?

   /Snap Shot Number/ (SS): If your adjusted "to hit" roll is greater
 than or equal to this number, you may fire /without aiming/, yet incur
 no -4 snap shot penalty, as long as the target was in view at the
 beginning of your turn.
  ...

This means that you apply all other modifiers *before* comparing with
the snap shot number of the weapon.  This is backed up explictly in
the summary table of ranged combat modifiers and descriptively a
couple of sentences later in the snap shot description.  It is further
verified by an example in High-Tech.


> >In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
> >concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or
> >vehicle movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a
> >median about -8.
[...]
> Thats because the players could do it.

No; they almost always can't.  The penalties are there because that's
the conditions under which they're fighting.  If they're lucky, they
can try to change the conditions for the better.  If they're unlucky,
they can try to make them worse so they have a chance to get away
without being shot themselves.  But most of the time their opponents
are trying to do the opposite -- that's why they're called opponents
:)


> If they had lower skill penalties, they would wait for more
> favorable conditions.

In most cases, that's not going to happen.  For example, the sun won't
rise for another 6 hours; the forest isn't going to disappear; their
opponents aren't going to come out into the open and walk slowly up to
point blank range for them.

In most cases, waiting for better conditions is the worst thing they
could do.  If they've got a 5% chance of hitting with a snap shot,
well, that's 5% better than not trying.  Hard on the ammo supply, but
its better to win with 2/3rds of your ammo gone than lose with a full
load.


>  That is one reason that players want higher skill, so they can do
> the difficult stuff.

Sure.  I don't think we disagree on that at all :)

Even a 5% chance to hit from a snap shot is better than the 2%, 0.5%
or none at all that lower skill might give them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:57:55 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)

Of course, I have zero personal knowledge of firefights and not a
great deal of knowledge about real-life firearm incident statistics.
I do know a lot about GURPS, though :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 05:16:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:16:58 EST
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
Message-ID: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>

   I guess I should've made myself a bit clearer in my first post (which 
happens to me quite often it seems); I'm currently using MT (with the odd 
bits from CT thrown in as well), and I'm unsure as to the source, but 
somewhere a missile turret was able to hold 3, or 4, or 12 missiles, and, 
being unable to find the source, am curious about it. Am I just imagining 
these numbers?
   A missile turret that holds 231 missiles? _Egads_, but GURPS is just plain 
_amazing_. I've had this apparent misconception that GURPS Trav was put 
together using the same conventions as GOT (Good Ol Traveller); differing 
mostly in the actual game mechanics... I wonder what the volume/displacement 
of such an amazing turret would be in CT or MT.Boy, a 100 ton missile bay 
wouldn't even hold that many! :)
  -Ken-
   Who hasn't actually looked at GURPS since the Madlands and Celts books 
(but WILL be getting the Hellboy book)


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:09:53 -0500
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209061213.WADA319.dorsey@link>

ROFLMAO!

Was it maybe two years ago now that someone else asked a similar question,
and sparked off a HUGE spate of flames that lasted quite a while?  To wit:
"Why has every version of Traveller failed?"  I think whether it has
repeatedly failed or repeatedly succeeded may be a
glass-empty-or-glass-full thing.  I certainly hope this equally innocent
inquiry doesn't spark all the flames that older inquiry did.  LOL.

Since you ask, my opinion is that a whole lot of the success goes back to
the original rules.  They were clearly the best science fiction rules
available.  The only ones, for awhile.  They had a certain elegance of
design that is/was appreciated by people who like to contemplate design
issues.  It also came through that these rules were written by people who
seemed more mature and more...sophisticated than most of the other rules
that were out there.  Subsequent to the original rules, a great number of
factors have been at play in determining whether someone was currently
trying to write and publish new Traveller material and whether the
game-playing public had an appettite for same.  Nobody has quite recaptured
the magic of the earlier days, but a lot of us are still willing to buy or
consider buying any new Traveller material that comes out in hopes of
seeing that magic again.  Some attempts at creating it have been better
than others.

For the longest time, I just liked that the rules were easy for anyone to
use and that they did a good job of letting you play the vast majority of
science fiction concepts/novels/stories ever published.  Except time
travel, but who can be expected to do well incorporating comprehensive time
travel rules into an RPG, eh?  As GDW amassed more and more material
covering the details of their Traveller universe, I became quite fond of
having that much well-written background material easily available.
(Having just praised the quantity of it, I have to say I usually find any
given supplement or adventure a little too thin on detail, and some of the
adventures were too dependent on the referee completely manipulating the
plot, without the players really much having any influence over their own
destinies.)

As other companies have produced their own science fiction RPGs, Traveller
still seemed superior.  Partly because of better production standards from
GDW, partly because of above-mentioned elegance of design and ease of play,
and partly because they got a good mix of what-if suppositions to base
their rules on that proved very popular with most science fiction fans who
play RPGs.  Cheap and abundant energy, FTL travel available but expensive
both financially and in terms of the time required, antigravity, thrusters,
etc.  As well, the rules that modelled these things tried to do it in terms
that are almost intuitively meaningful.  So that your willing suspension of
disbelief isn't stretched more than necessary.

So, short answer to the question:  Good writing and good game design,
especially in the original material.  But I don't think you would have
found just my short answer to be very satisfactory.

--Laning
"Art without engineering is dreaming.  Engineering without art is
calculating."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 at 16:46:59 -0800 (PST), Jeff Hopper
<jeff37923@yahoo.com> typed:
>>>
I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
has gone through several incarnations and survived as
a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
Is it the common and continually growing background?
What is it in you opinion?
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:13:23 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F40ozI9WbbjykeNXXUv00012b0b@hotmail.com>

From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>

     "Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors allow a ship 
to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps less than her maximum jump 
rating - meaning, of course, that the default in CT once was that all fuel 
gets burned.  I don't have a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, 
but I wouldn't be surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as 
well."


Mr. Smith,

     I remember them from HG1 also.  My ancient synapses may be playing 
tricks on me but are there any costs for jump governors listed?  Any tonnage 
requirements perhaps?  Any tables so you can purchase and install them in 
your designs?  IIRC, there were not.
     If you can't choose whether or not to "buy" and "install" the device, 
the device is not an option, it is part of the standard equipment, like 
reverse in a automobile transmission.  Jump governors are a part of the 
OTU's standard jump drive "package", along with zucchai(?) crystals and hull 
grids.  The default actually means that every jump drive has an intregal 
jump governor, except in those very rare cases where the GM decided one was 
not installed for some unfathomable purpose.
     CT allows us to expend jump fuel according to the distance moved IF 
there is a jump governor installed.  MT, which makes no mention of jump 
governors in any of it's design rules, insists that you expend all your jump 
fuel regardless of distance travelled.
     So, we get the following "rules";

CT w/jump governors as standard equipment- All vessels only expend the 
amount of fuel necessary for the jump actually performed, UNLESS the GM 
decides a normally installed jump governor is either not working, damaged, 
or missing.

DGP/MT fuel ruling - All vessels expend their entire jump fuel tankage 
regardless of the length of their actual jump, DESPITE the fact that  CT 
specifically mentioned a jump governor.

     "DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own."

     The idea of "total jump fuel use" may not have been one of DGP's 
creations, but ditching the CT jump governor "fix" most certainly was.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:28:11 +0000
Subject: [TML] Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
 )
Message-ID: <F186Od5OF8PYUxvn97E00012dc9@hotmail.com>

From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>

     "This wasn't merely a DGP thing. Early versions of CT
clearly established this as canon as well. Take a good look a 
_first_edition_ copy of Book 2:..."


Mr. Newman,

     That same edition should mention the jump governor, shouldn't it?  The 
first edition of HG does.  Neither book mentions how to go about purchasing 
or installing a jump governor though, there are no MCr costs and dTs volumes 
listed for the equipment.  To my simple mind that means that the governor is 
a standard part of every jump drive, like inertial dampers on CT starships.  
Sure there may be a few CT vessels flitting about without inertial dampers 
or jump governors, but that's up to the GM and not the design process.

     "In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of published designs."

     "No. GDW did that. :) "

     No DGP did.
     Prior to MT and DGP's bone-headed fuel ruling, a vessel could jump 
without expending it's entire jump fuel load IF it had a jump governor 
installed.  Afterward their fuel ruling, a vessel MUST expend it's entire 
jump fuel load because jump governors no longer existed in the OTU.  This 
despite their specific mention in CT, I should add.
     In CT, GDW created the option.  In MT, DGP killed the option.  They 
invalidated years of published designs, including ones they had published 
themselves.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:30:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
References: <200202081735.g18HZPs26009@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1b1fc$6dab43a0$8b40510c@0tk0e>

>How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your
>care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did during
>the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a "battleship",
as
>I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about any other topic,
>they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs don't somehow count.
>Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the obligatory February piece on
Dr.
>King without knowing what Selma was all about?
Certainly many science reporters show roughly equal level of
unfamiliarity about the science they're writing about (though not all,
of course.) I think in general we always notice errors in reports about
subjects
that we're familiar with; nothing exceptional about the ignorance shown on
military affairs.

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209064550.WFRG319.dorsey@link>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 at 19:00:05 -0800, John Snead <sneadj@mindspring.com>
typed:
>>>
The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).
<<<

I have come in recent years to hold the same opinion as Mr. Snead on this.
How many of us relish the prospect of getting our characters shot out from
under us every time there's real combat?  No fun.  But that's what would
happen in a realistic system if PCs and NPCs behave the way we like to have
them behave.  In a truly realistic system, most combat would quickly change
to everyone seeking cover as quickly as possible and awaiting suitable
reinforcements or some means of escape.  The risk vs. reward doesn't
justify much else.

>>>
>From what I've seen, used in this fashion, the term "realistic" 
essentially means that the resolution system accurately simulates 
the various action-oriented TV show and films that have formed 
most gamers images of combat.
<<<

For some gamers, that is probably true.  For others of us, I think we just
want to keep our disbelief suspenders from snapping when someone gets hit
right in the Hit Points or the Endurance or whatever.  We'd rather
immediately know that Joe is pumping arterial blood from his arm or
something.  But even if you write a damage system with that kind of
granularity without making it as lethal as real life, you still have the
problem of detailed damage then requires an appropriately matching degree
of detail in the healing/medical system.  Which is usually b-o-r-i-n-g or
returns the game design to being unpleasantly lethal.  At least this is how
I've been pondering the design problem.  YMMV, and if it does, I'd be
interested to hear.

I forgot who to thank for introducing the phrase "snapping disbelief
suspenders".  Good one!  :->

--Laning
"Every man desires to live long; but no man would be old."  -Jonathan Swift
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:00:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:00:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>
References: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020209180001.A27488@freeman.little-possums.net>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>    A missile turret that holds 231 missiles? _Egads_, but GURPS is just plain 
> _amazing_. I've had this apparent misconception that GURPS Trav was put 
> together using the same conventions as GOT (Good Ol Traveller); differing 
> mostly in the actual game mechanics...

Well, one difference is that a standard GURPS missile is only 150 kg
with a volume of 0.012 dtons, and does much less damage per missile.
Even so, a GURPS missile rack carries enough missiles to fire at its
maximum rate for 25 hours which seems a bit excessive.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:55:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
In-Reply-To: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>

Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
as good as Bonded Superdense.)

Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue.

--Laning
"People are stupid.  Think I'm kidding, don't ya?  I can prove it.  Look at
the way they drive."  -Gallagher
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 21:24:39 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net> typed:
>>>
What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:22:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:22:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <20020208092320.C22201@4dv.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800
Message-ID: <3C658511.19061.323434@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 9:23, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > 
> > To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> > remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> > pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."
> 
> The amusing thing is that ISTR a statistic to the effect that the
> deadliest caliber, in terms of deaths per year, is the .22.  Not
> because it is deadly in and of itself--it's almost laughably
> _not_--but because a) it's so common b) it's particularly common among
> young shooters and c) folks are not nearly so careful with it as they
> are with other calibers.  I'm not certain if I believe it[1], but it's
> interesting as either a fact or a falsehood constructed for some
> reason.

Another reason is that many people don't realise that they've been shot if the 
bullet came from a long way away (and .22LR bullets will travel over a mile), 
and assume the wound is a shallow puncture from a twig or the like. The they 
get ill and die days later from a punctured intestine, etc.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:27:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:27:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <20020208092930.D22201@4dv.net>
References: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500
Message-ID: <3C65863B.22094.36C2BA@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 9:29, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > "I was cleaning it and it went off..."
> 
> I personally believe that anyone who is found not to have unloaded a
> firearm before cleaning it should have all his weaponry confiscated
> for some suitable time.  It's just Not That Hard to do.  There's just
> no reason in the world not to check, double-check and triple-check.  I
> was taught in Scouts to treat _every_ gun as loaded, even if I'd just
> unloaded it myself.

I remember having a 'little chat' to someone in my barracks during basic 
because he couldn't comprehend this truth. He kept pointing his (throughly 
empty and inoperable) M16A1 at people and couldn't understand why the shooters 
amongst us got upset. I suspect he still didn't after our 'talk', but at least 
he didn't wave his rifle around like that any more.
 
> OTOH, I understand that `cleaning his pistol' is a coroner's nicety
> for `suicide.'
> 
> But then there's the moron who was flying through DFW over
> THanksgiving.  To demonstrate that his elk rifle was unloaded, he
> pulled the trigger.  Thereby putting a round through a window.
> 
> He should be put in the stocks for small children to throw tomatoes
> at.  And have his rifle confiscated for at least a year.  Idiot.

Here in NZ that'd cost you your firearms licence (thus forcing you to give away 
or sell your firearms), and there's no way you'd get it back for at least three 
(more like five) years. While your licence is revoked you aren't allowed so 
much as an air-rifle and can't touch a firearm, even under supervision, let 
alone fire one (which someone who's never had a licence may do - under 
supervision of a licenced person).

While I have issues with some of our firearm laws, this isn't one of them.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:50:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:50:06 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C658B7E.22738.4B4FEB@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 17:38, Andy Brick wrote:

> Howdy
> 
> Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
> 
> (1) Military Units
> 
> How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
> Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
> organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
> size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
> tanks would you get in armoured units ?

NZ (and British, though it may have changed):

Squad - doesn't exist, but we have a section instead. About 8-10 men, sometimes 
12, especially if you've plenty of warm bodies but are short on machineguns, 
grenade launchers and experienced NCOs and officers. Led by a Corporal or long 
serving Lance Corporal (very rarely by a Sergeant if you've somehow managed to 
get a surplus of these essential NCOs).

Platoon - 3 sections and a small HQ group - usually the Platoon OC (Officer 
Commanding, a 2nd or 1st Lieutenant), a Platoon Sergeant (a Sergeant unless 
short on NCO in which case a Corporal might fill this slot), a radio man 
("Platoon Sig") and a Medic. May also include support weapons teams detached 
from Company and Battalion level (in Britian I think there are a number of 
special weapons held at Platoon level, but here in NZ we don't have enough to 
do this).

Company - 3 Platoons plus a Command Section. CO is usually a Captain, senior 
NCO a WO1, once a Sergeant Major and still addressed as "Sarn't Major". Or 
Else.  

Battalion - 3 Rifle Companies, plus Support (consists of Sigs, Intel, admin, 
etc.) and Logistics (Transport and Catering, Logistics, maintenence, etc.) 
companies. Also assorted mortar platoons, SFMG platoon (generally split up into 
two machinegun detachments that are 'lent' to whoever Battalion HQ thinks needs 
them). Commanded by a Lt. Colonel, with a WO2 (assuming I've got my Warrant 
Officers right) as the RSM (Regimental Sergeant Major), who dresses as an 
officer and is addressed as "Sir". He's the _only_ NCO _ever_ addressed as 
"Sir", and the idea that we'd do like the US Marines and have recruits address 
an NCO as "Sir" while in training is considered both laughable and repugnant by 
our NCOs. We worked for our pay.
 
In armoured units each vehicle is equivilent to a section, though they're not 
called this. The platoon equivilent is a "Troop", and company is, IIRC, a 
"Squadron" and is either ten or 13-14 vehicles.

> The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
> squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as the
> command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

Pretty much, though most armies seem to find threes are best from platoon to 
battalion level. After that the main elements (infantry battalions in a 
'infantry' regiment or division) tend to be in threes or fours, with lots of 
other troop types, usually in smaller units as well.

It's said that the position that's directly responsible for the most men in the 
entire army is the infantry section commander (a Corporal if he's lucky) as 
he's responsible for everything to do with himself and his men - 8-12. Everyone 
higher in position than him has underlings to deal with admin, and has 
subordinates to worry about the sub-units, so they only have to concern 
themselves with about four or five men/units. And platoon commanders wonder why 
they find it hard to impress their section commander and platoon sergeants (who 
were once section commanders).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:55:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:55:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 10:33, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> > Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine gun.
> > 
> > 
> > Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
> So could be 8-12 men
>
> > Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
> Could be 24-48 men

Say 30.

> > Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
> Could be 72-192 men

Say 100.
 
> > Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel
> Could be 288-960 men

500 to 1000, depending on type and how much support it has organic to it.

> What's the actual range in sizes of various units?  I assume it would be rare to
> have a brigade with more men than an army, but the formulations you give allow
> it...

This is something that deopends on the Army and the type of unit. Soviet Tank 
Regiments used to have 1300 officers and men, and IIRC some of the larger US 
Infantry Battalions had more personnel than this at one time.




-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:10:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <B889A605.240E5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C65904F.16843.5E22F7@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty, it
> should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. Thus 
the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire should 
make luck checks to not get hit every so often.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:19:07 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Timothy Little wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
> less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
> firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)
> 
> Of course, I have zero personal knowledge of firefights and not a
> great deal of knowledge about real-life firearm incident statistics.
> I do know a lot about GURPS, though :)

Unfortunately GURPS does a lot of other things badly in this area. Damage in RL 
is not ablative (except bleeding - which GURPS also does badly), and most 
people don't drop to half movement long before they die, and nor do they hang 
on to conciousness for a couple of seconds then fall over (again long before 
they die) - they either fall over immediately (often not unconcious, but merely 
in shock or screaming) or they keep going until they die or the adrenaline 
wears off (long after the fight's over).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:08:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:08:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
References: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C658FD7.26224.5C4CC4@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:39, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> 
> I'm not kidding.

But didn't you grow yourself a new one?


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:08:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:08:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C658FD7.6531.5C4CB6@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:16, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   >>
>   Re, your comments below.
> 
>   Typically, in peacetime, most 'real' military units
> will be manned at approx. 70-80% of their max TO[Table
> of Organization].
> 
>   Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
> apply:
> 
>   Fire Team:   4 men
>   Squad:      12 men

Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including 
those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:50:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 08:50:39 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA
Message-ID: <F54Q873Tlm70rM3Tbhy00012b7e@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  
(Almost as good as Bonded Superdense.)"


     "Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as 
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue."


Sir,

    British Dental Association.
    It's from a Monty Python skit featuring "Lemming of the BDA"; a crime 
fighting dentist with his own theme song.

     Lemming!
     Lemming!
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee,
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee,
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee-Aye!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, Dept. of Obscure Cultural References


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:49:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202091042160.12616-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Hey, what about Phoenix Command? 

And, yes, the two times I have played it (as a tactical scenario, not in a
role-playing game) it has seemed to be the best system for rpgs, too. If
one does want a combat system, that is, I have been drifting towards very
free-form rpgs lately.

(Sadly the www pages of Charlie ei surffaa (Charlie doesn't surf, a
Vietnam game) campaign, played in many Finnish RPG Cons, are in Finnish.

Kollaa kest (Kollaa will hold) pbem scenario has web pages, 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/ This is about the Finnish Winter
War, in short scenarios.

The people behind this have held also Kollaa Kest in Ropecon. It was
very fun, although a little slow, even with all the laptops..)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:30:52 -0000
Subject: [TML] 40 days to go
Message-ID: <000c01c1b14e$869d3660$d169893e@fabian>

Heads up for those who are interested.

In 40 days time, I fly to Moscow, stop for 2 days, then fly on to Tokyo.

I will be working in Hamamatsu, Japan.

Replies privately or on the chat list please.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:14:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOEEFMCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Snead wrote :-
> The statistics I've read essentially look like 
> people get hit several times by bullets that don't do much
> (at the time) and then they get hit in the head, heart,
> or some similarly vital area and then fall down and die
> in short order.

That's a fair analysis.
Superficial wounds don't do very much ; depending on the
region affected, blood loss may be quite slow.

Decompensated hypovolaemic shock takes time to develop (minutes).
Overwhelming massive damage is rare (head wounds, direct injury
to heart, great vessels or liver).

> OTOH, combat with shotguns or high powered rifles would produce
> far different results wrt lethality.

The last time I surveyed the trauma literature, fatal injuries
about 40% of the time with truncal hits ; head wounds are
essentially non-survivable (95+% fatal).

I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
systems.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:30:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:30:44 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013203829.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGEPLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Nah, you've got it backwards.  Larger meson guns in High Guard
> are basically
> guaranteed kills on anything they hit, and the weapons in GT are
> nowhere near
> that lethal.

If I remember that right, the larger Meson guns of High Guard have a yield
of about 10ktons. The GURPS ones are weaker by about a factor of 100 or
1000.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 02:34:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C65904F.16843.5E22F7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B88A3B51.242E2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/9/02 12:10 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
>> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty,
>> it
>> should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
> 
> Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. Thus
> the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire should
> make luck checks to not get hit every so often.
> 

As someone once said: I'm not worried about the bullet with my name on it.
I'm worried about the million that say "to whom it may concern."

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:36:04 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEPECEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHKEPLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> 
> IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion 

Sorry, it was late. I meant: The worst features of Interlock and Hero...

regards,
Stephan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 09:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:56:25 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <019401c1b156$098e2960$d169893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>


> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

otoh, 'failure to secure a licensed weapon' may be a serious crime on the
world.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:04 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

It's not that simple.

Suppose the police claim the PC's forced the victim to hold the
gun to his own head while they shot him. After all, there will be
evidwence of the victim being grabbed by the wrist.

Details about the wound would be no different if the gun was held
against the victim's head by the PC, it's only the evidence of
the gun being in the victim's hand that would suggest suicide.

Heck, the PC could even get residue on his own hand from holding
the "victim's and whie he fired.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:04 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEIHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :

> And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.

I still think crossbows are a much better weapon than firearms.

Better penetration, effectively silent, and much easier to make
"special" ammunition for.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:05 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :

> Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's
> better to kill than to maim.  If someone's dead, he
> cannot sue.

Or claim that the use of the firearm in self-defence was
unjustified, leading not just to a civil suit, but criminal
charges from the police

> Yes, there've beeninstances where burglars have sued
> those who shot them in self-defense.  I'm not certain
> if any have won, but there it is.

There have been many cases where people who usd weapons in self
defence have been convicted of various crimes by the police
afterwards.

> Yes, crazy, I know.

Not neccesarily. The guy who went onto the New York transit
system armed and looking to be attacked should have been locked
up. I can't remember if he actually was or not.

> There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.
> To stop someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is
> not a matter of_hurting_ him by throwing small things at him;

Very little crime, even drug-related crime, is actually carried
out by criminals who are high at the time. That which is, is
usually very messy and spectacular, and the criminals usualy die
vor are capture very quickly.

> it's a matter of _stopping_ him by shutting down his
> central nervous system or destroying a major organ
> like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally, means that
> he dies.

If you want avoid killing someone, but still want to stop them,
destroy their knees or feet. If you have a bigger weapon, destroy
their hip.

The problem, of course, is that this requires greater precision
than a torso hit.
Though even a torso hit requires precision if you want it to hit
somewhere where it will actually stop someone.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:52:46 -0000
Subject: [TML] Far Horizons ship design system
Message-ID: <01f001c1b159$4cff73e0$d169893e@fabian>

http://www.srv.net/~ram/

Has a link to a computer moderated pbm called far horizons. Those
interested in a basic ship design system might want to have a look at it.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:14:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:14:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
> less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
> firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)

How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in 
firearms hits on a 14, which is *way* better than 10% even figuring 
in lots of modifiers.  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

GURPS is fun, but realistic it's not (in a vast number of ways).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:10:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEIHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:02, Frank Pitt wrote:

> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> 
> > And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> > the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.
> 
> I still think crossbows are a much better weapon than firearms.
> 
> Better penetration,

Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?

> effectively silent,

I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never heard a thing. :)

> and much easier to make "special" ammunition for.

True.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:09:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:09:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
References: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C65118A.49E1FE6D@mindspring.com>

My wife and her sisters went door to door collecting money for the BDA while in
high school. (Beer Drinkers of America) Perhaps Beer Drinkers of Aramis in the
57th

Laning wrote:

> Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
> as good as Bonded Superdense.)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:10:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C65C89D.8851.13A1987@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 3:14, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:


> How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in 
> firearms hits on a 14, which is *way* better than 10% even figuring 
> in lots of modifiers.  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

Now knock off a few points for range and target movement, and a few more for 
lighting, and yet more for the target being on cover. By now the effective 
level is probably under the gun's snap shot level, so knock another 4 points 
off. By now we're probably looking at a hit chance that's somewhere between 
'very little' and 'bugger all'. At least that's how it works IME. It struck me 
the first time I played GURPS in a game with guns just how often it was more 
effective to run up to someone with a bat and thump them than it was to try 
shooting them. Whether that reflects RL I don't know, but it didn't reflect the 
game reality that was supposed to exist in that campaign.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:20:29 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <13c.91e3c80.29966e0d@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 23:19:24 GMT Standard Time, sneadj@mindspring.com 
writes:


> > A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal
> > and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> > 1993-1998.  We decided to make a hit location chart using the
> > information it contained.  In assault cases of gunshot wounds the
> > following hit locations were given:
> > 
> > Report Results
> > Head / Neck - 14%
> > Arm / Hand - 13%
> > Leg / Foot - 33%
> > Upper Trunk - 21%
> > Lower Trunk - 16%
> > Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)
> > 
> > Hit Location Table (d12)
> > 1:        Head
> > 2:         Right Arm
> > 3:         Left Arm
> > 4-6:         Chest
> > 7:         Abdomen
> > 8:         Groin
> > 9-10:     Left Leg
> > 11-12:     Right Leg
> > 
> > Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
> > figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get
> > hit more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier
> > to keep the PCs alive by not hitting them there.
> 
> Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:
> 
> 1: Head
> 2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
> 3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
> 5 Left leg
> 6 Right leg
> 
> Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard 
> urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> 
> If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a 
> 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this 
> roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> 
> I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed 
> is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll 
> 1D12, you only hit on a 1.     
> 
> However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting, 
> sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time 
> to aim carefully.
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> 

Another option is to create a "Close Quarter Battle" skill that allows 
characters a higher to hit chance in these situations.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:32:07 GMT
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com> <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3c661334.2054916@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> > Battalion: 

>500 to 1000, depending on type and how much support it has organic to it.

"Eight 'undred fightin' Englishmen, the Colonel, and the Band" ?

;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:26:22 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>
References: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020209232622.A27984@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Unfortunately GURPS does a lot of other things badly in this area.

No argument *at all* here.  I was specifically referrign to exactly
the criteria mentioned and no more for very good reason :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:32:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:32:28 EST
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
Message-ID: <8a.13c37aaf.299670dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 23:59:32 GMT Standard Time, jimv@uia.net writes:


> Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
> the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
> a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
> resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
> mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
> combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
> complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
> produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
> preprogrammed machinery."
> 
> It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
> Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
> sort having this innate ability?
> 
> I don't want to influence the jury, so I won't say anything
> more, but for those of you who would try to run Traveller as
> a hard science campaign, how would you handle this race?
> Keep them as is? Degrade their abilities? Toss them out?
> 
> Speak o' wise ones... -Jim
> 

There is no physical reason that the Sheol should not be able to do this.

The only real question is how the Sheol developed this ability - what is its 
evolutionary advantage? (Ignore what follows if the race has been geneered, I 
don't own the book in question so don't know the details) 

The *conscious* control of molecular level construction requires tremendous 
background processes which would have to have evolved at some point along the 
way. It could be that they originally evolved to do something else, such as 
make little Sheols.*

So basically, if there's a good enough reason for the Sheol to have developed 
this skill through evolution it's not a problem. If you can't think of a good 
enough reason then something has to change or, if you want to keep them as 
they are, it's time to invoke Grandfather.

Iaa Grandfather fthagnhr, or something... 

Charles

*But conscious control over the traits passed on to offspring is unlikely, 
and potentially dangerous from an evolutionary point of view.

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:49:19 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <4d.18e87915.299674cf@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/02/02 10:24:44 GMT Standard Time, 
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:

SNIP
> The last time I surveyed the trauma literature, fatal injuries
> about 40% of the time with truncal hits ; head wounds are
> essentially non-survivable (95+% fatal).
> 
> I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
> systems.
> 
> 
> Robert O'Connor
> medico, gamer  
> 

A quick look at the data for the US for 1994 - 1999 shows an overall 
mortality rate for gun shot wounds of 16.47%, compared to 2.32% for stabbings 
and 1.06% for "fights".

Unfortunately it doesn't breakdown by body area, perhaps because of multiple 
trauma.

Out of interest GSWs have the highest mortality rate of all forms of 
traumatic injury.

I also agree about the nature of RPG combat systems. There was also the 
problem of overestimating the effect of energy transfer* in those systems 
that claimed to be realistic, which often made them unrealistically lethal.

Charles

*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:40:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:40:56 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020209234056.B27984@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in firearms
> hits on a 14,

At say 12 ft range, they get -3 due to range.  If the target is
running, another -1 to -3.  If there are any intervening obstacles, -1
to -5.  If the firer is walking, another -1.  If the lighting isn't
perfect, -1 to -6.  If they don't take at least 2 seconds (one to aim,
one to shoot), another -4 for snap shot penalty.


> which is *way* better than 10% even figuring in lots of modifiers.

As I said in another post, my median modifier set in GURPS games was
about -8 *before* applying recoil, psychological or snap shot
penalties.  That alone is enough to put a skill-14 shooter (already
above average) at 10% chance to hit.

For a 14 to hit in GURPS, you'd have to have in mind a situation where
the person being shot at is standing relatively motionless in clear
unobstructed sight with good light 2 yards away, while you yourself
are also standing still in a reasonable firing stance on good ground
in a calm frame of mind.  Doesn't sound anything like a typical
firearm incident report to me.

If anything, GURPS makes it even *harder* to hit than is realistic.


>  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

On a firing range, sure.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:24:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   I know this is going to sound odd, but has anyone really *looked* at the 
TRIN system from old data of the Spinward Marches and compared it with the 
new GURPS BEHIND THE CLAW?  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a 
M0 main sequence star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC 
indicates that it is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that 
there is a planet located further inwards towards the sun.  M class stars, 
if they have any habitable planets, usually have to be in the first 
orbit.  Looking at SCOUTS this is the case,  looking at GURPS FIRST IN, 
this is the case.  I know I am getting cranky after working a 16+ hour 
shift and all - but the more I look at the data in the spinward marches, 
the more I am tempted to scrap it entirely and build a fresh spinward 
marches...   <gaaahhhhhhhh>.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:40:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:40:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED4@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium"
anywhere
>in the canon?

"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
war subjects.

--Glenn
<

Thank you very much! This is something I can look up! #19 if I'm not
mistaken. 

Maybe I should rephrase the question as little less wiseacre!

I'm trying to start a campaign based on "The Traveller Adventure". This is
an awesome adventure in most ways but......it starts with a a planetary
landing and if your lucky a New Years party!

So I thought it would more fun to start the adventure with a bang! A pirate
attack by the very Vargr pirates whose history is going to be so important
to the rest of the story would be a much more exciting "Teaser" for the
adventure. 

But then I realized I know absolutely nothing about how Vargr pirates
attack. How do you forceably board another ship? At what range do your
sensors detect that this is not a 400 ton merchant ship? How long do they
take to board? What do they do after they board? Rip out your stereo and
VCRs? Do they want your computer? Your cargo? Your robots? 

I kind of thought there might be some canon info! Thnks!

>>>>My work isn't canon, but I've worked out some ideas for how
>>>>a space pirate ship might function...two essays, at the top
>>>>of my Traveller web page.
>>>>http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm

Well, that's okay, it doesn't *have* to be canon - I just thought there
would be!
Thanks!

Looks like cool stuff! Yes - this is perfect - thank you!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED5@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> (i.e. Champions).

And meshed rather poorly.<

I'm interested in why you think so. Everyone who doesn't like FUZION seems
to have a different reason. 

The most common responses I've heard are 

1. "Why didn't they just add superpowers to Interlock and then it would be
perfect!" Which I think is really a bit unfair. Even without the
superpowers, Interlock did get better in alot of ways. 

2. "Why did they break a wonderful system like HERO by adding that crappy
Cyberpunk stuff." Which I think is simply insane. 

Personally, I think the "mesh" worked perfectly well, but all they did to
the Champions Powers was divide the numbers by 5 so that 10 points became 2
points. That really did make the Champions powers any more palatable. I
personally think they should have used the Dream Park super powers instead.

>>>>IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion
(imagine you

Don't you mean the "worst features of both Interlock and HERO?"

I thought Interlock actually got improved - at least there is no BODY score
and no character classes! 

What are the 'worst' features that you think was left in from Interlock? 

JMO
Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:03:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:03:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
References: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003401c1b18b$ab2b59c0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >  I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
> >has gone through several incarnations and survived as
> >a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
> >people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
> >it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
> >Is it the common and continually growing background?
> >What is it in you opinion?
>
Whether you like the changes MT and TNE wrought on the OTU, the background
is not only rich but dynamic.  Other games have tried to do this but failed
(DnD's World of Greyhak IMO, the changes they made are things that no
character could ever do under the rules).  In Traveller it was always
possible for characters to be movers and shakers at any level.

Plus Loren is good at answering questions and providing insights into the
metagame aspects of Traveller : )


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:50:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:50:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020209.125050.-317141.2.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:24:45 -0800 (PST) Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
> knightsky@juno.com writes:
> > > >Say like the FUZION System?
> > > 
> > > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's 
> that 
> > > system like?
> > 
> > FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with 
> Hero
> > (i.e. Champions).
> 
> And meshed rather poorly.

For the curious, you can find out pretty much all you want about FUZION
at http://www.meta-earth.com/fuzion/core.html.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 18:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:11:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C658FD7.26224.5C4CC4@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
 <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020209101052.009ff1a0@mindspring.com>

At 09:08 PM 2/9/02 +1300, you wrote:
>On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:39, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > >Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> >
> > Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> >
> > I'm not kidding.
>
>But didn't you grow yourself a new one?

Yeah, it's coming along nicely.  Drives my doctor nuts.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry           gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"That's just 'mostly dead.'  What we are concerned
with here is 'Pining for the Fjords' dead."
                                     - Mark Urbin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 18:32:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:32:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202090258310.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020209101521.009feac0@mindspring.com>

At 03:09 AM 2/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>
> >>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
> >>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?
> >
> >No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary
> >defense force.
>
>So Mora's army isn't set up or organized for off-planet movement but still
>has a number of troops available for off-world activities?

Exactly.  The units if the PDF are optimized to defend the homeworld.  If 
they need to travel off-planet, it will involve all sorts of special issue, 
special training, and special arraignments.

As an example, when I was stationed in Georgia with the 197th Infantry 
Brigade (Separate) (Mechanized), we were part of Reforger 85.  The 197th 
was not adequately equipped for winter on the North German plains!  We had 
to draw cold weather gear (which had to shipped to us from Ft. Drum, almost 
700 miles away) and take classes in cold weather survival and vehicle 
operation and maintenance in cold-weather situations.  That took a few 
weeks.  In this example, the USMC stands in for the Imperial Army... they 
spend a great deal of time training in many different climates and 
situations, and tend to have the gear on hand for deployment.  Us doggies 
needed more time.

So, in Mora Subsector, you will have the UA which is practised at getting 
vehicles loaded onto transports, and have fought on different worlds, and 
the Mora PDF which will need a little more hand-holding.


> >The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the worlds of the
> >subsector. They are expected to be ready at all times for duty on any world.
> >They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are discussed on page 16 of GF.
>
>But colonial forces ARE Imperial forces. Well, colonial _squadrons_ are
>subsector forces anyway. I suppose that strictly speaking we have no proof
>that the word isn't used differently about troops. It seems rather odd,
>though. Only, if that is the case, where are the subsector troops in FFW?
>We have a smattering of marines, 16 named colonial troops and 14 numbered
>colonial troops. Where are the Unified Armies?

Hans, all those black on red counters are the Unified Armies.  Yes, it is a 
new name and concept, but I found *nothing* detailing the operation and 
chains of command for the Imperial Military while writing the book!  I had 
to make things up.  That's why they call it creative writing after all..

The white on red counters are the colonial troops.  These are units drawn 
from PDFs in the subsectors off the map.  Now, while 5FW is a great game, 
it fails in being an accurate reflection of what the actual troop levels 
would be.  There should be *hundreds* of division-level units 
available.  It also fails in that you can't detach cruiser squadrons to go 
raiding without an bloody admiral leading them.  It also fails to discuss 
logistics, morale, planetary conditions, the possibility of local defense 
factors going to ground, or the value of high population worlds.  In other 
words, it is an amusing game but worthless in any real examination of the 
Fifth Frontier War.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 19:55:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:55:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>


>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.

I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in Traveller:2300, we had 
3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of the British Army. See 
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm (although 2300, 
it would be great to adapt to Traveller).

Bryn


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:00:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:00:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <4d.18e87915.299674cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


There seems to be some excellent commentary on GURPS gunshot damage not
being realistic.  This topic has probably come up before, but how should we
change it to work better in Traveller?

If we break down hits and damge damage by:

1) Hits to vital areas.  Head, heart, and other organs.  Very easy to kill a
character in GURPS, unless they have super high HTs.

2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?  I always figured that your
torso was packed with organs.  They always talk about nasty hits to the lung
and those take up most of your chest...

3) Hits to limbs.  Should a rifle hit to the arm make that arm useless or
simply painful?  A shot through the thigh does what to your ability to leap
tall buildings in a single bound?

4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a cricitcal success.
How well does clotting stop non-major artery hits anyway?

5) Unconsciousness and Death.  People seem to complain that it is too easy
to knock a character uncon. and not kill them compared to RL.  The defense
of this idea is that nobody wants to play a PC that dies and getting knocked
out of the fight is kinder but still bad for the PCs.  I can accept this,
but what should change to make it more like RL?



Assume a PC with a HT of 12.  That gives them 12 hits.

6) With the blowthrough rule, a gunshot to the torso has 0% chance of
killing unless they hit the vitials.  They do have a good chance of falling
uncon. Is this realistic? If not, how should it be replaced?

7) At -12 HT, they start making death rolls.  It can take a LONG time w/o
medical help before this happens.  Is this reasonable?

8) Finally with all this going on, how do we think lasers will change
things?  If anything, they should make it even harder to kill.  They do not
produce very large trauma areas (more like a .22 damage) and there would be
little blood loss.  If anything they sound like very unfatal penetration
weapons and may be better used to sweep across a person more like a "ranged
sword" effect.


Justin


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 19:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:58:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <000701c1b11a$33042420$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020209195833.81071.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>


--- n2sami <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:
> Traveller is great 'cause it is wide open.
> 
 Define 'wide open', please. I'm not not exactly sure
what you mean and don't want to misinterpret.

Whopper

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:39:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:39:48 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Military organizations
Message-ID: <165.82a4fc9.2996e314@aol.com>

> Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>  
>  (1) Military Units
>  
>  How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>  Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>  organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>  size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>  tanks would you get in armoured units ?

GDW covered this in the Gulf War Factbook, as well as Striker (both editions) 
and Mercenary. British name their stuff slightly differently than we Yanks, 
and every nation and army has its own little quirks (sometimes even within an 
army). Also changes over time, and as a unit takes casualties.

I'm sure you have received hundreds of answers (reading this a little late), 
so I won't clutter the list with mine.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:36:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:36:18 -0000
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <135.911f7b6.29957a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEFFCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of CHam628781@aol.com
> Sent: 08 February 2002 19:01
>
> In a message dated 07/02/02 23:23:04 GMT Standard Time,
> mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>
> > Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control
> > communications & reporting...
> >
> > ... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and
> Argentina had a
> > vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK
> forces were
> > outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy
> > vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them,
> > free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy
> about. Other
> > stuff just, um, got lost.
> >
>
> <possible urban legend>
> Apart from the time that the reporters told the British public that the
> Argentinians were fusing their bombs too long. Coincidentally the
> Argentianians appeared a short time later with shorter fuses on
> their bombs.
> </possible urban legend>
>
> Charles
>
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
>
Not sure of that one, but another incident is definetely real.  As the
troops were heading in to conduct the first landing they (commanders at
least) the BBC announce their landing was about to happen, complete with
approximate location.  Several authoritive sources agree on this Virtually
every documentary of the war, most books written by commanders and Margaret
Thatchers own biography)

Worst thing is this was an Officail statement from the Prime minister's
office.  Even the Argentinian Commander heard the report but could not get
the message to his troops in the area!!

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I don't know about this.  Regular smuggling I could handle, but I don't
think I'm ready to be a Bible salesman - www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 2nd Jan
2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:42:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:42:51  0000
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <PEDGAKOKKDOOFBAA@angelfire.com>

Well, there's a question you've posed and no mistaking.

I'm running Mt for a whole bunch of people, many of whom have never played Traveller before. Some have even expressed their desore to never play it (I sold them by telling them I was running Elite). But I've got some feedback from them now.

One of the things they've been taken with is the chargen system. They really liked the fact that, by the time they had to worry about personality and the like, they'd already got some idea of what the character was like. They liked the idea that these are people with a history and that not everyone has the same. They like the fact that people from different places have a different take on things.

The second thing they noticed was the ruleset. When run by a GM who knows what they're doing both CT and MT are very slick systems and are responsive to GM tinkering (I have a couple of house rules surrounding J-o-T skill and the like). They appreciate the fact that I can just give them a roll to make and they don't have to worry about whether any other factors are applicable, whether any of their feats/abilities/disiplines/powers or whatever other systems call them are relevant.

I'm not sure "like" is the right word for how they view Traveller combat, but they certainly appreciate it. The deadliness is soomethignI've always liked about the system, ever since my first experience of Traveller (about seven years ago) when my GM said "bigger guns don't make you any harder, they just make you a target for harder opponents". This idea of deadliness in combat leads me nicely onto the real seller for Traveller as far as I'm concerned.

The setting is what does it for me. Much of what makes Traveller special is tied directly into the ruleset. The planetary data, the jump duration, the weapons and all that. They are what makes any game, regardless of background, "feel" like Traveller.
On top of that you have a wealth of backround material to play with. I personally like the Rebellion and the lead up to it. Some people don't so they play in a different era. The thing that ties them together is that there's a cohenrent history and because people have played all through it there's so much quality work out there you can't really go wrong.

The last two points were brought home to me before I started to run this latest campaign and an old friend who's not pplayed Traveller for about half a decade came round to borrow a book. Six hours later my flatmate was still watching in stunned horror as we discussed the sociopolitical climate of the Spinward Marches and the effects of Norris on the fifth frontier war. 

I don't know what "makes Traveller Great" as such but I do know that very few people who've played it would fail to recognis the Traveller feel, and that's what sets it apart from other sci fi rpgs.

Sorry to go on so long.

Oh and there's the huge active virtual community constantly keeping the setting fresh for GMs.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:00:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <188.3175740.2996e7ee@aol.com>

Robert O'Connor says:
> I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
>  systems.

Yep. Players want it to be like in the movies. Even the vets we talked to 
weren't much interested in absolute simulation of combat. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:57:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:57:27 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <a9.22b10c1c.2996e737@aol.com>

>  > Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per 
casualty,
>  it
>  > should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
>  
>  Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. 
> Thus 
>  the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire 
should 
>  make luck checks to not get hit every so often.

We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, and it 
proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost lynched us. We 
dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for innovation in game 
design . . . :  )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:01:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:01:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] What is Wide-Open [long] for Whopper
In-Reply-To: <20020209195833.81071.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1b1ad$02919b40$2f7de40c@loki>

About as close as you can nail me down is found below. I leave your
interpretation as 'wide-open' as you like but no narrower that I meant.

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

wide-open
     adj 1: open wide; "left the doors wide-open"
     2: lax in enforcing laws; "an open town" [syn: open, lawless]

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

wide
     adj 1: having great (or a certain) extent from one side to the
            other; "wide roads"; "a wide necktie"; "wide margins";
            "three feet wide"; "a river two miles broad"; "broad
            shoulders"; "a broad river" [syn: broad] [ant: narrow]
     2: broad in scope or content; "across-the-board pay increases";
        "an all-embracing definition"; "blanket sanctions against
        human-rights violators"; "an invention with broad
        applications"; "a panoptic study of Soviet nationality"-
        T.G.Winner; "granted him wide powers" [syn: across-the-board,
         all-embracing, all-encompassing, all-inclusive, blanket(a),
         broad, encompassing, panoptic]
     3: (used of eyes) fully open or extended; "listened in
        round-eyed wonder"; "stared with wide eyes" [syn: round-eyed]
     4: very large in expanse or scope; "a broad lawn"; "the wide
        plains"; "a spacious view"; "spacious skies" [syn: broad,
         spacious]
     5: great in degree; "won by a wide margin" [ant: narrow]
     6: great in range or scope; "an extended vocabulary"; "surgeons
        with extended experience"; "extensive examples of picture
        writing"; "suffered extensive damage"; "a wide selection"
        [syn: extended, extensive]
     7: having ample fabric; "the current taste for wide trousers";
        "a full skirt" [syn: wide-cut, full]
     8: not on target; "the kick was wide"; "the arrow was wide of
        the mark"; "a claim that was wide of the truth" [syn: wide
        of the mark]
     adv 1: with or by a broad space; "stand with legs wide apart"; "ran
            wide around left end"
     2: to the fullest extent possible; "open your eyes wide"; "with
        the throttle wide open"
     3: far from the intended target; "the arrow went wide of the
        mark"; "a bullet went astray and killed a bystander" [syn:
         astray]
     4: to or over a great extent or range; far; "wandered wide
        through many lands"; "he traveled widely" [syn: widely]

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

open
     adj 1: affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or
            closed; "an open door"; "they left the door open"
            [syn: unfastened] [ant: shut]
     2: affording free passage or access; "open drains"; "the road
        is open to traffic"; "open ranks" [ant: closed]
     3: with no protection or shield; "the exposed northeast
        frontier"; "open to the weather"; "an open wound" [syn: exposed]
     4: open to or in view of all; "an open protest"; "an open
        letter to the editor"
     5: used of mouth or eyes; "keep your eyes open"; "his mouth
        slightly opened" [syn: opened] [ant: closed]
     6: not having been filled; "the job is still open"
     7: accessible to all; "open season"; "an open economy"
     8: not defended or capable of being defended; "an open city";
        "open to attack" [syn: assailable, undefendable, undefended]
     9: (of textures) full of small openings or gaps; "an open
        texture"; "a loose weave" [syn: loose]
     10: having no protecting cover or enclosure; "an open boat"; "an
         open fire"; "open sports cars"
     11: opened out; "an open newspaper"
     12: (mathematics) of a set; containing points whose neighborhood
         consists of other points of the same set, or being the
         complement of an open set; of an interval; containing
         neither of its end points [ant: closed]
     13: not brought to a conclusion; subject to further thought; "an
         open question"; "our position on this bill is still
         undecided"; "our lawsuit is still undetermined" [syn:
undecided,
          undetermined, unresolved]
     14: not sealed or having been unsealed; "the letter was already
         open"; "the opened package lay on the table" [syn: opened]
     15: without undue constriction as from e.g. tenseness or
         inhibition; "the clarity and resonance of an open tone";
         "her natural and open response"
     16: relatively empty of and unobstructed by fences or hedges or
         headlands or shoals; "in open country"; "the open
         countryside"; "open waters"; "on the open seas"
     17: open and observable; not secret or hidden; "an overt lie";
         "overt hostility"; "overt intelligence gathering" [syn: overt]
         [ant: covert]
     18: (music) used of string or hole or pipe of instruments [syn:
         unstopped] [ant: stopped]
     19: not requiring union membership; "an open shop employs
         nonunion workers" [syn: open(a)]
     20: not secret; "open plans"; "an open ballot"
     21: without any attempt at concealment; completely obvious;
         "open disregard of the law"; "open family strife"; "open
         hostility"; "a blatant appeal to vanity"; "a blazing
         indiscretion" [syn: blatant, blazing, conspicuous]
     22: affording free passage or view; "a clear view"; "a clear
         path to victory"; "a free lane" [syn: clear, free]
     23: lax in enforcing laws; "an open town" [syn: wide-open, lawless]
     24: openly straightforward and direct without reserve or
         secretiveness; "his candid eyes"; "an open and trusting
         nature" [syn: candid]
     25: sincere and free of reserve in expression; "Please be open
         with me"
     26: receptive to new ideas; "an open mind"; "open to new ideas"
     27: ready for business; "the stores are open"
     n 1: a clear or unobstructed space or expanse of land or water:
          "finally broke out of the forest into the open" [syn: clear]
     2: where the air is unconfined; "he wanted to get out in the
        air a little"; "the concert was held in the open air";
        "camping in the open" [syn: outdoors, out-of-doors, air,
         open air]
     3: a tournament in which both professionals and amateurs may
        play
     4: information that has become public; "all the reports were
        out in the open"; "the facts had been brought to the
        surface" [syn: surface]
     v 1: cause to open or to become open; "Mary opened the car door"
          [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     2: start to operate or function or cause to start operating or
        functioning; "open a business" [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     3: become open; "The door opened" [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     4: begin or set in action, of meetings, speeches, recitals,
        etc.; "He opened the meeting with a long speech" [ant: close]
     5: spread out or open from a folded state; "open the map" [syn:
         unfold, spread, spread out] [ant: fold]
     6: make available, as of an opportunity; "This opens up new
        possibilities" [syn: open up]
     7: become available; "an opportunity opened up" [syn: open up]
     8: have an opening or passage or outlet; "The bedrooms open
        into the hall"
     9: make the opening move, in chess; "Kasparov opened with a
        standard opening"
     10: afford access to; "the door opens to the patio"; "The French
         doors give onto a terrace" [syn: afford, give]
     11: display the contents of a file or start an application [ant:
          close]


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:35:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:35:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>



Bryn Monnery wrote:
> 
> >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
> >team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
> >those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.

According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:53:06 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED5@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEAACFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> I'm interested in why you think so. Everyone who doesn't like FUZION seems
> to have a different reason.
>
> The most common responses I've heard are
>
> 1. "Why didn't they just add superpowers to Interlock and then it would be
> perfect!" Which I think is really a bit unfair. Even without the
> superpowers, Interlock did get better in alot of ways.
>
I think you can count me in here. I really liked the way Interlock worked. I
didn't care much for Hero but in itself it was a quite workable Supers
system.

What bothers me is that they didn't took Interlock and Hero and designed a
good, new system based on these two but bolted together two systems that -
while being compatible in some parts - intended to model two entirely
different "realities" and power levels. Fuzion not only _is_ a mesh, but it
looks and feels like one too - bad game design (do you remember the early
editions were they basically said: "for skill rolls, take 1d10 or 2d6 -
whatever"?)

>
> >>>>IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion
> (imagine you
>
> Don't you mean the "worst features of both Interlock and HERO?"
>
yeah, sorry, it was late ;-)

> I thought Interlock actually got improved - at least there is no
> BODY score
> and no character classes!
>
O.k., the character classes were crap - but not more so than the ones
devised for T20. And the Body score is quite good (see GURPS: Compendium 1 -
they'd like to have it, too but it would make older material too
incompatible). Personally I like the approach of Silhouette - STR is a
derived attribute of Body (your size) and Fitness (is it muscle or fat?).
Neat.

> What are the 'worst' features that you think was left in from Interlock?

Now that you mention it - my Interlock days are long gone and I can't
remember any specific thing. It's more that IMO they spoiled a decent
realistic system (Interlock) by adding a system that uses comic book physics
as it's base assumption and didn't even worked out the rough edges that
invariably appear when meshing two entirely different systems.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:53:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:53:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020210085323.A31956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
>  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a M0 main sequence
> star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC indicates that it
> is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that there is a
> planet located further inwards towards the sun.

According to the game books. yes that's usually the case.  In real
life, it is highly likely that planets exist closer in to less
luminous stars than they do to brighter ones.  The reverse is almost
certainly true.  Just remember that the Titius-Bode 'Law' that nearly
all game books use is an empirical observation based on a sample of 1
systems, and doesn't even fit them too well :)

Since the books were written, at least one other star system has been
discovered with more than one planet.  The first one found definitely
does *not* follow anything like Bode's Law.  I haven't seen data on
others, but I'd be very surprised if that was the only one to date.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:00:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT Had to Share
Message-ID: <02b001c1b1bd$82e89360$f9ded63f@customer>

In a message dated 2/6/02 10:17:48 AM Central Standard Time,
jhoover951@msn.com writes:

Almost 150 years ago, President Lincoln found it necessary
>       to hire a private investigator, Mr. Alan Pinkerton.  He was
>       actually the beginning of the Secret Service.
>
> Since that time federal police authority has grown to a
>       large number of agencies - FBI, CIA, INS, IRS, DEA, BATF,
>       SS, ATF, etc.
> Now Congress is considering a proposal for another agency:
>       The "Federal Air Transportation Airport Security Service."
>       Can't you see it now, the new service in their black outfits
>       with their initials in large white letters across their backs?
>       "FATASS"





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 22:15:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:15:08 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:

> 
> 
> Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > 
> > >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal
> > >squad/fire- team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two,
> > >including those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at
> > >all.
> 
> According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).

Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 22:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:35:10 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
Message-ID: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>

I've been playing around with some of the UWP data and applying Far
Trader economic rules to it.  I thought I'd check out the total trade
volume between the Imperial sectors to either side of Corridor.  The
results are rather interesting.

The total external trade volume going through Corridor is about BTN
13, or 10-50 trillion credits worth per year.  Using the long-distance
modifier, this equates to about 10-50 million dtons per week.  That's
a *lot* of liners!

There are 3 systems which divide all this trade between them: Neghu
Oug (C63A641-9), Uughrae (A766367-D) and Habretic (C663110-9).  None
of them are quite what I would have expected for such a huge amount of
shipping.

I'm sure there are *plenty* of interesting stories there.  The
starports in such a system would see items and people from every
corner of the Imperium.  No doubt too they would see plenty of Naval
personnel tasked with protecting this vital cross-Imperium trade!  At
such places, you could probably find anything you wanted -- or perhaps
something or someone you didn't want could find you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:08:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 17:08:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C65AC0B.21D62E80@premier.net>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > >
> > > >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal
> > > >squad/fire- team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two,
> > > >including those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at
> > > >all.
> >
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

I can think of a couple of reasons for such an organization:

1.  It trained junior leaders to think in in terms of the triangular
organization found at higher echelons (three primary maneuver elements,
plus any support), thus readying them to conduct operations with larger
elements.

2.  This organization gave the Marines an excuse to increase their TOE
allotment of BARs (since each fire team was authorized a BAR).

> Military Intelligence
> ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
> on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
> activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
> mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

A tres cool sig file, which inspired my use for now of my current sig
file.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:09:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>

How much time did it take Tim to discover what everyone aware of trade
in the sector would now without effort?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>

How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)

Something has to be wrong here.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:30:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net> <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020210113058.A32367@freeman.little-possums.net>

n2sami wrote:
> How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)
> 
> Something has to be wrong here.

Well, the trade does go through 1 of 3 systems.  My guess is that not
much goes via that route.  Or maybe, the primary planet has a tiny
outpost, but there is a much larger starport elsewhere in the system
whose population doesn't count in the UWP?

Even the biggest system of the three has a population in the
single-digit millions, a tech level of just 9, and a C starport.  The
most likely candidate for the bulk of the trade (due to its A-class
starport and TL D) has a population in the single-digit thousands.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:53:22 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net> <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020210115322.B32367@freeman.little-possums.net>

n2sami wrote:
> How much time did it take Tim to discover what everyone aware of
> trade in the sector would now without effort?

>From formulating the question in my head to getting a quantitative
answer, about 60 seconds; much of which was spent typing in the query
:)

Sure, I knew that quite a bit of trade had to flow through Corridor.
I wasn't sure how much, since after all it is a *lot* of jumps from
the Spinward Marches to Core, at a week and a fair few hundred credits
per dton each jump.

Even so, I suspected a fair few billions of credits per week.  I
didn't expect many *hundreds* of billions per week, and I didn't
expect it to pass through such low-profile systems.  I was expecting
major trade routes made up entirely of systems with A-class starports,
C+ tech levels, and populations in at least the millions.

After all, the starship crews alone would make up a fair few hundred
thousand people in dock at any one time.  Surely there'd be more
residents than transients?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 01:11:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:11:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210115322.B32367@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000801c1b1cf$d7909d10$2f7de40c@loki>

I did a click across the corridor, from Regina to Capital, trip awhile
back on someone's online atlas. I was surprised how difficult it was to
visit only high pop, good port system on that journey.

Seems we have found the frontier and it is inside our borders. I really
think that 
A) folks discount how much empty space there is and 
B) so much room for mischief is left out there and 
C) what a tough job the Imperial Navy has patrolling it all and 
D) explains lots of the discrepancies found in the otherwise excellent
work of the IISS surveys.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 01:35:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:35:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <20020209141444.B26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEBADLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I
>> didn't have any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of
>> cargo is supposed to be.
>
>Typically about 5 tonnes/dton, I believe.  I can't find a reference
>offhand, though :(
>
>Some items may be lower than 1 tonne/dton, while bulk liquids (in
>containers) would routinely go over 10 tonnes/dton.
>
>
GT:Far Trader p 55-58 describes different types of cargo, dtons required and
gross tons of weight. Anything over 25 stons/dton is considered a heavy load
and requires special holds (extra bracing, blocking, gravic compensation,
etc.) or there is increased wear and tear on the ship.

FT gives many other details and is IMHO well worth procuring, even if you do
not use GT.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 02:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:07:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] Journalists in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb88a4506e1d3@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEBBDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>On 01/11/02 at 07:20 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>><grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>>ObTrav - To what lengths would the 3I go to to hide warship losses?
>>>There  is no First Amendment and journalists are pretty much at the
>>>mercy of  whatever polity they anger.
>>
>>While this is true, it is also possible to play the 3I as with a
>>remote and mostly indifferent government that would be slow to respond
>>to threats, especially threats that didn't have major and direct
>>effects on intersteller trade. In an environment like that a
>>"travelling journalist" could get away with muckraking, expose's,
>>scandalizing, and downright security breeches...if they were careful.
>>Concentrate on local and regional things (less likely to bring the
>>real weight of the 3I down on you, disquise your identity (always
>>publish under a pseudonym and with a "public face" that doesn't match
>>your own, travel incogneto and with coverstories), find and live in a
>>safe haven and don't foul your nest (no reporting on things in your
>>home system and pick that home system with an eye to one that will
>>protect you from extradition), keep on the move, and be prepared to
>>either drop stories that are "too hot" or "for the good of the
>>Imperium."
>>
>>You know I can see a campaign there, a team of journalists working on
>>assignment, undercover, for some big media broker, especially, if they
>>are the sort of journalists that can't help but get involved in the
>>stories they are covering.
>
>In the TAS news items there are some instances where reporters
>challenge Imperial officials (on reports of Ine Givar Activity).
>There seems to be _some_ independence, at least for influential
>organizations.  Either because there are reporting organizations who
>can withstand at least some pressure or because this kind of
>reporting is useful uo significant parts of society (for example, the
>nobility like how it helps them keep track of what the emperor is
>doing).
>--

Remember that the TAS is a rich sophonts club and that JTAS items started
out as advisories for members, who are among the elite of the Imperium. Just
because its in a TAS report doesn't mean that it's been broadcast to
everyone everywhere.

I use JTAS as a member only journal that has news and information not
generally shared with the non-Traveller populous. Sure from time to time
stories are leaked to the general press, but many High CR worlds won't be
publishing that information anyway. JTAS tends to be more critical of
individual Imperial policies, and from time to time, Imperial
representatives (including nobles) because TAS has the clout in the form of
all of the other Imperial Nobles who are members. They can call it like they
see it, as long as they don't violate the Secrets Act.

TNS tends to be more watered down for the masses, as much of this
information is picked up by local news services, on worlds that have a free
press. Often if TNS is critical of a particular individual, be they Imperial
Noble or Imperial Bureaucrat, it is because an Archduke or a member of the
Imperial Family has wanted that story to go out. A subtle nudge or reprimand
that what they're doing is being watched.

In the above example, it might be the Emperor saying, "Look your reports are
saying that there's nothing to this Ine Givar thing, but I know better.
Either admit that things are bad and figure out a way to fix it or I'll send
in someone who will."

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 02:38:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:38:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>>>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>>>
>>>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>>>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>>>
>>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships
used
>>soldiers train in seamanship.
>
>Hello Terry,
>  In response to your question, page 6 of MEGATRAVELLER'S FIGHTING SHIPS,
>you will find under AssaultRon: Comprised of troop transports and
>supporting ships.  Capable of carrying hundreds of battalions of invading
>troops.
>
>I guess that makes it canon...
>
>             Hal

I guess I should have made my statement clearer. Who runs the ships in the
AssaultRon? Are they crewed by members of the Imperial Navy, Sector Navies
(which might make sense since the troops are from the Sector Armies) or by
members of the Army itself? It's true that in the U.S, which is probably the
only nation left that has significant sea lift capability, troop transport
ships are run by the navy, but that doesn't mean that is the way the
Imperium does it. In fact in today's world troop transports are only used
for the Marines. The Army is primarily moved by air (by the USAF) with their
heavy equipment moved by either commercial ships or Military Sealift Command
ships which are crewed by a mixture of civilian merchant marine and navy
crew.

So how does the Imperium do it?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:00:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:00:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013191960.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>>
>> Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because,
>> in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their
>> instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic
>> radicals.
>
>And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
>important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies does not
incline
>one to believe everything the military says....

That is an inaccurate quote. I happen to watch that particular news
conference in its entirety. SOD's statement was along the lines of ~"while
Churchill said that 'in war truth is so important that it must be protected
with a bodyguard of lies' that is history. We (the DOD) should never have to
lie to protect a secret. If I don't want you to know (about a subject) I
just won't tell you." He then asked the press corps not to quote him out of
context, which you just did.

I assume that you got the quote from some news hack, who was just waiting
for such a line.

Further does the 'brass' lie to the press? Sure. As long as the press can't
seem the tell the difference between a scandal, which the public has a right
to know, and a military secret, whose release can get people killed I will
expect the 'brass' to lie to them from time to time, if only to prevent the
kind of circus that went on in Haiti as the Marines came ashore. Had the
locals decided to contest the landing many good men and useless TV hacks
would have ended up dead on that beach.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

P.S. Excuse my exuberance on this subject. A man who I served under, and
very much respected, was hounded to his death by the worst kind of
mudrakkers. His suicide was a blow to his family, the men who served under
him, and who he served, and his country.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:21:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEBDDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Lets not forget that some "crackpot" ideas are only so because they are
technology limited. Leonardo conceived the tank, but it was could not be
built and deployed in earnest until the 20th century.

The Navy is investigating the use of the X-Ray laser now, but I don't
realistically expect to see one deployed as a weapon for many decades, if
not longer.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:45:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:45:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEBEDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

><tim@freeman.little-possums.net> typed:
>>Subject: Re: [TML] {CBC} Canon
><<<SNIPPAGE OF RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>
>>I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
>>so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
>>or not.
>
>Former US Marine here.  The selection process for decades now has had
>higher education and intelligence test requirements to enlist in the Marine
>Corps than in the Navy, Air Force, or Army.  Not a widely known fact,
>although recruiters love to crow about it.
<snip>
>You should probably count boot camp as part of the selection process.
>During my day, roughly a third of enlistees would wash out of boot camp and
>be given a discharge.  During the first few days, they gave us
>opportunities to just raise our hands and say we'd changed our minds.  The
>paper work would take months longer, and they'd keep you around pushing a
>broom or some such until then.  The primary criteria for graduating from
>boot camp are psychological commitment and physical endurance.  They make
>each day a trying process, and if you don't **want** to get through to
>graduation, you won't.
>
>The physical demands of boot camp definitely emphasized endurance more than
>strength, dexterity, intelligence, education, or social standing.  Strength
>and dex were definitely quite significant, of course.

As an aside and as a 20 year Navy man I have to say that I've known a number
of Marines in my life, all of who were outstanding individuals. Where I work
now (a DOE research facility) we have several Marines, who graduated from
boot camp over a period of at least 15 years. I also know ex-Navy who also
graduated over a similar period.

A quick talk with each group and you will find that the Navy types each went
to a completely different kind of boot camp. From my own late Viet Nam era
period of marching and carrying rifles, through the "must not stress out the
recruits" era of the eighties, to the much more specific damage control
training stuff of the 21st century, the Navy peoples experiences were all
colored by the era in which they attend boot camp. The Marines all went to
the same boot camp. I mean They All Went To The Same Boot Camp. If you stand
around and listen to them, they could have all been there at the same time.
Nothing is different from one persons experience to the other.  They have a
bond that other people just don't have.

I gotta say: If I want a bridge blown up or somebody killed I'd call the
Navy Seals. If I wanted somebody to get my butt out of a besieged embassy,
or standing between me and some really bad people. I'd take a Marine every
time.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 04:06:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:06:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <PEDGAKOKKDOOFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEBEDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Traveller is great because it's a game that can be played so many ways.

Sure you can RPG it with a GM and a group of players. Or you can play
solitaire, by designing worlds, sectors, ships, characters. Heck you can
even just roll up a character and follow his career (or die in character
creation.)

You can play Traveller by playing FFW or Mayday, or Bright Lances or Battle
Riders. Or even using GURPS Traveller ship combat rules, modified for fleet
combat. Or with you own system, as long as its vector based or hex based or
abstract movement based.

Or you can play be PBEM, or on chat or by GRIP or with a 15 year old
computer game.

Or you can spend all your time on line on the JTAS boards or the T20
playtest of the TML.

It doesn't matter because you're playing Traveller.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 04:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:54:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202091042160.12616-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202092053200.1129-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Well, there are gamers (such as me) who find combat essentially boring.
Combat is what you do when the role-playing alone won't get you what you
wanted.  I would play the characters with the negotiation and the
detective type skills when I was a teenager, and when it broke down to
fisticuffs or Gunnery, I would go bake the cookies for everyone else.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:37:22 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C65AC0B.21D62E80@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C66CBF2.9507.1186EA@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 17:08, John Groth wrote:

> I can think of a couple of reasons for such an organization:
> 
> 1.  It trained junior leaders to think in in terms of the triangular
> organization found at higher echelons (three primary maneuver elements,
> plus any support), thus readying them to conduct operations with larger
> elements.

Except that squads are run by NCOs, who don't (in the normal scheme of things) 
run platoons and up.
 
> 2.  This organization gave the Marines an excuse to increase their TOE
> allotment of BARs (since each fire team was authorized a BAR).

Now that would be a good reason. :)
 
> > Military Intelligence
> > ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
> > on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
> > activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
> > mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.
> 
> A tres cool sig file, which inspired my use for now of my current sig
> file.

Thanks. It comes from a hand-out that we got given by one of the Staff Sergeant 
instructors during my Military Intelligence 'Corps training'.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:37:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:37:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210063930.CFOM319.dorsey@link>

"Monty Python.....British Dental Association."  Ahhhhh, now I get it.
Wink's as good as a nudge to a blind bat.

Thank you, Mr. Whipsnade.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:29:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:29:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Law  and Firearms For Self Defense
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCENJCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Basic rules of firearms as taught to me by the U.S.Army:

If you want to kill someone with a firearm, shoot for center of mass.

If you want to stop someone without killing them, shoot below the waist,
treat for shock, then call for paramedics.

As for civil courts, one would assume that your deliberate intent not to
kill, (shooting below the waist), and your treatment for shock afterwards,
would weigh heavily in your favor in a self defense situation, should the
would be burglar try to sue you afterwards. This assumes the breaking and
entering occurs at night, or under poor lighting conditions.

I would suggest NOT shooting in a well lit area if the perp has no firearm,
or if the range of the encounter occurs outside of the effective range of a
knife wielding assailant.

If using a shotgun for home defense, my personal preference is to load a
bean round for the first round (note: last round actually loaded), and
serious ammo second. Doing so, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my
intent is NOT to kill. Also it gives me the satisfaction of shooting him
anyway, under any conditions, whether he has a weapon or not.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:29:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>

Hey now!!!  Spending three months addressing everyone a recruit sees as Sir
is good training.  They don't just address NCOs that way, but everyone.
Even the private who is issuing them gear at supply or whatever.  But,
starting the very instant they graduate from boot camp, if the new privates
start to call another enlisted Marine sir, and god forbid one of their
drill instructors that, welllll....that's exactly what the Marines have
been waiting to hear so they can jump all over the boot private's ....., um
jump all over the private.  They'd damn well better know the difference
between a training environment and the real thing.

We get plenty of mileage out of that "I'm not an officer, I work for a
living," line too.  Always fun to see some kid's face who hasn't heard it
before when you tell it to them.

AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
not just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men
have a tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and
age, and we need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the
practice.  The recruits usually don't even see officers during a typical
training day, so we let the boots practice on the drill instructors and any
other random Marine they might be unfortunate enough to run afoul of.  They
practice saluting in a similar fashion.  Oh, and recruits never, ever
address or refer to a drill instructor as "D.I.".  Hoo boy, don't do that.
Ever try dodging a flying foot locker while remaining at the position of
attention?  Not to mention how the next thirty minutes of your life is
going to be hell.

In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always
use the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First
Sergeant Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to
sergeants, master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".
 Makes me shiver and want to strangle someone every time I hear it.  The
sole exception in the USMC is that it is quite common to refer to Gunnery
Sergeant Hill as Gunny Hill.  Gunny just sounds cool, I dunno.

A much subtler nicety of etiquette that it took some time for me to learn
is Sergeants Major.  A certain percentage of them seem to really get off on
the display of fear implied when an enlisted Marine addresses them (MOST
improperly) as "sir".  Others just let the nearest corporal or sergeant or
whoever jump all over the offending party and correct their behavior.  This
trivial task is not really worth a sergeant major's time.  Some sergeants
major will correct the offender themselves, though.  Some few sergeants
major really encourage "sir", and you will get on their shi--, er bad list
if you don't do it.  Never good to be on the sergeant major's bad list, and
usually the only way to get off it is when you transfer to your next duty
station.  It's always fun to guess whether a particular sergeant major will
prefer "sir" or not.  It says something about their character, I think.  I
prefer mine without the "sir".  The other type seem hypocritical and
potential petty tyrants.

Note that the sig I am about to use always brings a smile to my face and a
warm fuzzy inside.  Then I glance around to see whether anyone needs an
immediate painful application of behavioral modification if they do not see
the wisdom in these words.

--Laning
--formerly Sergeant, United States Marine Corps
"God loves the Marine Corps.  Because we KILL everything we see.  In
exchange for providing Heaven with this fresh supply of new souls, God lets
us guard His pearly gates."  -the senior drill instructor explaining a
Marine's role in the universe to his recruits in 'Full Metal Jacket'

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 at 20:50:06 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> typed:
>>>
He's the _only_ NCO _ever_ addressed as 
"Sir", and the idea that we'd do like the US Marines and have recruits
address 
an NCO as "Sir" while in training is considered both laughable and
repugnant by 
our NCOs. We worked for our pay.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:35:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stopping Doped Up Criminals
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013198535.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGENJCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Stopping people and making them fall down was why .45 caliber ammo was
invented.

For pure stopping power, a shotgun is hard to beat.
Gun goes boom, man falls down.


-----Original Message-----

Well, there's reasonable evidence that people fall down after being shot
because the brain goes 'oh, I've been shot!  Time to fall down'.  A lot of
things can interfere with this process, at which point you're left with the
option of doing enough damage that they can't avoid falling down, which
means
killing or crippling injuries.

That said, most drug-related crime is gang-related activity or theft, and
people ignoring bullets is rarely going to be an issue.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:55:06 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>

A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:

A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.

I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

These figures only related to hits and misses and did not mention fatalities
or wound severity.

This suggests to me that proper training has a significant impact.  The
police, trained for combat situations, have a big advantage over the average
person who, at best, may have practiced target shooting.

This observation is backed up by a personal experience I had.  Some years
ago in my foolish teens I played a lot of laser tag.  There was one occasion
where I went in as a 'bunny', that is I had a vest and could be shot but
didn't have a gun.  Most of the other players in the game had never played
before and I hardly got hit; except for one other regular player who had
snuck in with the new players and shot me to pieces every time I went near
him.

If you want to model realism I think training and experience has a lot to do
with it, at least as far as 'civilian' combat goes.  Battlefield combat
where everybody is trained and techniques like supressing fire are used
seems to change the dynamics and hit ratios and this might need some more
thought.

One other thing that occured to me about making a combat system more like
real life is this:  Traveller is not like real life.  Technology has moved
on, in particular materials technology in Traveller has advanced to the
point where personal body armour can reliably stop most 'conventional'
smallarms.

Finally, my personal approach to wound realism in combat is this:  rather
than needing to tinker with the rules to affect realism, I let the
individual dice results do it for me:  If you roll a torso hit that does
minimal damage it obviously didn't hit anything vital.  If you roll a torso
hit that does a chunk of damage then you obviously got one of the target's
more imporatant squishy bits.  A good narrative that interprets the results
can give an illusion of realism that a dry table can't, especially if combat
is a rare thing in your universe.

I will now slink back into lurk mode.

Regards.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:26:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:26:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210113058.A32367@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
 <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210002027.009ea0c0@mindspring.com>

At 11:30 AM 2/10/02 +1100, you wrote:
>n2sami wrote:
> > How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)
> >
> > Something has to be wrong here.
>
>Well, the trade does go through 1 of 3 systems.  My guess is that not
>much goes via that route.  Or maybe, the primary planet has a tiny
>outpost, but there is a much larger starport elsewhere in the system
>whose population doesn't count in the UWP?
>
>Even the biggest system of the three has a population in the
>single-digit millions, a tech level of just 9, and a C starport.  The
>most likely candidate for the bulk of the trade (due to its A-class
>starport and TL D) has a population in the single-digit thousands.

Now here is the fun part of world building.. why is this vital place so 
underpopulated?

Perhaps it is a boom world gone bust.  Once there was lanthanum a-plenty, 
but the belt dried up years ago, and most of the miners left.  What was 
left was one nice starport and a good technological base.  The remaining 
locals threw themselves into the starshiop support business, making the 
world a massive port of call/truckstop.  Local laws, especially those 
regarding vice, tend to be ignored as long as the crews on libery are 
spending money.

Adventure idea:  A nearby world has announced an upgrade project to its 
starport.  This will draw off traffice from the first world, and cause 
extreme hardship.  They will go to any lengths to derail the upgrade.  The 
players may be hired to perform acts of sabotage, be caught up in such an 
act, or become otherwise entangled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:30:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:30:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210002747.009e92c0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 2/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I guess I should have made my statement clearer. Who runs the ships in the
>AssaultRon? Are they crewed by members of the Imperial Navy, Sector Navies
>(which might make sense since the troops are from the Sector Armies) or by
>members of the Army itself? It's true that in the U.S, which is probably the
>only nation left that has significant sea lift capability, troop transport
>ships are run by the navy, but that doesn't mean that is the way the
>Imperium does it. In fact in today's world troop transports are only used
>for the Marines. The Army is primarily moved by air (by the USAF) with their
>heavy equipment moved by either commercial ships or Military Sealift Command
>ships which are crewed by a mixture of civilian merchant marine and navy
>crew.

My view is that the subsector army (aka the Unified Army of Foo subsector) 
will be carried by the subsector navy.  This allows the navy to purchase 
enough transports (Keiths, low-berth ships, and cargo haulers) to handle 
their particular needs.  The Imperial Navy does posses some troop transport 
capabilities, but this is a secondary thing for them.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:39:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210084125.CSOK319.dorsey@link>

Most of the replies to Andy Brick's inquiry so far have displayed a heavy
bias towards U.S. organization.  While these posts were certainly helpful
and valid, I fear that Mr. Brick may be getting a skewed impression of how
things work.  I'm grateful to the two recent posters (Mr. Boleyn is one of
them) who described the usual organization in the UK and Commonwealth
countries.

The basic difference is that the U.S. seems to put ungodly amounts of
resources into our military compared to most other nations.  Where at
various times in recent years a U.S. tank platoon might have five or maybe
four tanks, most countries are content with three or four.  Where our
companies are often composed of three or four platoons, many countries get
by with just two platoons.  And so on.  The U.S. also tends to have many
more support-type subunits within its units.  We usually have a
Headquarters & Supply Company within a battalion, and a Recon Platoon, and
a Weapons Company, as well as the obligatory three or four line infantry
companies, other countries will have two or three line companies plus fewer
and smaller support units within their battalions.

If you look at the TO&E of a country with less tech/industry than the US or
UK, say India or China or Indonesia as possible examples, you find a whole
lot less in the way of support troops compared to say the US, UK, Germany,
France, or Italy.

As the cost of equipping an infantryman or buying a tank has increased over
the years, almost all countries have shown a tendency to compose a division
of fewer regiments or brigades, a regiment of fewer battalions, a battalion
of fewer companies, a company of fewer platoons, etc.  It lets the generals
push about as many battalions around their war game maps as before without
having to pay more money to do it.  If anyone presses the issue, they just
point out that there may be fewer men in the unit, but it has more "combat
power" because of its newest and coolest equipment.  Sometimes it sounds
like paid advertising for the equipment's manufacturer.  They usually
include mention of how they now train troops better than they used to, so
that makes the difference too.  I'm not sure how much of their own bullshit
they believe when they say this stuff.  Difficult to assess.  Although
there is usually a kernel of truth there.  Just no Colonel of Truth.
Example of how equipment gets spread more thinly over units as the
equipment gets more difficult/expensive to procure:  from 1938 to 1945, the
Germans halved the number of tanks per tank division, and then halved it
again.


There really is no standard organization that is the same from country to
country.  For that matter, the standard organization within one country is
often quite different between its paratrooper outfits, straight leg
infantry outfits, mechanized/motorized infantry outfits, tank outfits, and
so on.  Finally, recent history shows us that if you wait a few years, a
country will heavily reorganize its units and things will be different again.

Dragging the discussion momentarily back to Traveller, I can't remember any
TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) that has been published in
Traveller canon that really made much sense to me.  Not enough support
units or support troops in them, is my point of view.  Lean and mean is
well and good, but who keeps all that high-tech gear supplied and running?
Who feeds people?  How are communications and surveillance and such done?
Why don't they ever have much in the way of support weapons, particularly
light-weight, indirect fire weapons like mortars?  If it is a unit likely
to be deployed to other star systems, shouldn't they make every fire team,
section, squad, or whatever have more personnel than otherwise?  That way,
when they take losses the unit is still relatively effective and less
dependent on the replacement pipeline to deliver new warm bodies.  Said
replacements entering the pipeline from at least one jump away.  Fatter
fire teams or squads might mean that the total number of companies that can
be fielded is smaller, but it also means that the "replacements" are
already present and done with their on the job training.  When you're in a
shooting war on another planet, there isn't time to train replacements in
your unit's procedures.  By the time you get replacements transferred from
army, group, division or whoever all the way down to regiment then
battalion then company then platoon then squad, a lot of precious time has
been lost.


Oh, whoever posted earlier that they are not aware of any military who uses
three fire teams per squad (or similar words), that would be the USMC
infantry for most of the last half of the 20th century.  Three fire teams
of twelve men, plus one squad leader.  A four-man fire team is robust
enough to still be an effective fire/maneuver unit after taking casualties,
and having three fire/maneuever elements gives a squad leader a great deal
of useful tactical flexibility.  A well-led Marine rifle squad is a
powerful thing on a battlefield.  I believe this particular TO originated
with the Marine Raider Battalion of WW2.  One thing I like about this is
that each squad has three fire-team leaders who are getting a bit of
leadership experience and thus are more prepared to step into the squad
leader role when the time comes.  Most U.S. Army infantrymen I've talked to
described themselves as "the tenth assistant machine gunner".  Meaning they
felt the only real combat power in the squad was the machine gun and
everyone else's role is to replace the machine gunner and assistant gunner
if/when they become casualties.  Seems like an awful waste of ten trained
infantrymen to have them cooling their heals waiting for the MG to do the
work, and none of them is getting preparation to replace the squad leader.

We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
"attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a great
deal of their lives "attached" to someone else.  There's actually a bit
more to it than that, but that's the simple picture.  For roughly 25 years,
we did have one Browning Automatic Rifle  (BAR) per fire team, and in most
circles this is considered a light machine gun, but it has a small
magazine.  For a long time, we've had one "grenadier" per fire team, who
has a greande launcher modification below the barrel of his M-16.  This
adds an interesting and useful dimension to the fire team's capabilities.

--Laning
"War is not an affair of chance.  A great deal of knowledge, study, and
meditation is necessary to conduct it well, and when blows are planned
whoever contrives them with the greatest appreciation of their consequences
will have a great advantage."  -Frederick the Great
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On 8 Feb 2002, at 17:38, Andy Brick wrote:
>>>
 How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
 Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
 organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
 size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
 tanks would you get in armoured units ?
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:44:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:44:20 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
References: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6632E4.182F4C09@premier.net>

Laning wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> We get plenty of mileage out of that "I'm not an officer, I work for a
> living," line too.  Always fun to see some kid's face who hasn't heard it
> before when you tell it to them.

After nearly 14 years as an NCO, I sometimes catch myself just before
saying this to _civilians_ who address me as "sir."  As I grow older, I
find myself addressed as "sir" by more and more people.... :-(
> 
> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
> not just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men
> have a tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and
> age, and we need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the
> practice.

When I went through Basic (US Army, Ft. Leonard Wood, D-4-3, 1984), we
did _not_ address our drill sergeants as "sir," for the reasons noted
above.  I was fortunate enough to have been briefed how properly to
address sergeants, drill or otherwise, prior to my first day at
Lost-in-the-Woods.  Note also that the US Army refers to one's initial
training prior to training in one's Military Occupational Specialty as
"Basic," rather than "boot camp."  I haven't the foggiest idea what term
US Air Force personnel use to refer to the resort they enjoy in lieu of
basic/boot camp.

<<snip>>
> 
> In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always
> use the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First
> Sergeant Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to
> sergeants, master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".

Not quite true.  NCOs in the US Army are addressed as either Corporal
(not many of those in the US Army, as most US Army soldiers of pay grade
E-4 are Specialists, and not considered NCOs), Sergeant (for NCOs
between the ranks of Sergeant [E-5] and Master Sergeant [E-8 not serving
as a company First Sergeant], inclusive), First Sergeant (NCOs
performing duties as a company First Sergeant, regardless of pay grade)
or Sergeant Major (for NCOs of pay grade E-9, regardless of duty
position).  Unusually tolerant First Sergeants will accept being
addressed (by subordinate NCOs, anyway) as "Top" (short for "Top
Sergeant," an older term for First Sergeant).

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  The difficulties that PCs can get into by addressing an NCO
according to the protocols of the PCs' former service, rather than those
of the service to which the NCO belongs, are plain enough that I need
not go into further detail.  GT players may consider this entire issue
as covered by the Savoir Faire (Military) skill, possibly with penalties
for personnel from services outside one's own.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:45:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003608.009ffe20@mindspring.com>

At 06:55 PM 2/10/02 +1100, you wrote:
>A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
>
>A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
>no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.
>
>I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
>where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
>can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
>remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
>offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
>just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

Training is a big factor in this.  I have researched similar stats while 
doing ACQ.  I found some real oddities, like a pitched gun battle the had 
both the combatants emptying 9mm pistols at the other with no one getting 
hit.  The entire combat took place inside a police car.

The vast majority of shots fired in a combat situation are either fired 
blindly or at movement.  *Rarely* will you get someone dumb enough to 
provide you with the chance for a nice clear sighting and trigger 
squeeze.  Experienced American soldiers from WWII admitted that they would 
often go through days of intense combat without ever seeing what they were 
shooting at!

>This suggests to me that proper training has a significant impact.  The
>police, trained for combat situations, have a big advantage over the average
>person who, at best, may have practiced target shooting.

Quick point.. there is a difference between combat training and what the 
police get.  I received combat training with the .45.  It was training on 
getting the pistol up, correct grip, and accurate firing to center 
mass.  The emphasis in police work is shoot/no shoot decision making.

>Finally, my personal approach to wound realism in combat is this:  rather
>than needing to tinker with the rules to affect realism, I let the
>individual dice results do it for me:  If you roll a torso hit that does
>minimal damage it obviously didn't hit anything vital.  If you roll a torso
>hit that does a chunk of damage then you obviously got one of the target's
>more imporatant squishy bits.  A good narrative that interprets the results
>can give an illusion of realism that a dry table can't, especially if combat
>is a rare thing in your universe.

One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your 
task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This 
accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get 
those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it 
worked well in playtesting.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:35:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>

At 02:29 AM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
>not just the Marine Corps.

Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill 
Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."



--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:02:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C66EDE7.32689.9631FD@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 2:29, Laning wrote:

> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp not
> just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men have a
> tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and age, and we
> need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the practice.  The recruits
> usually don't even see officers during a typical training day, so we let the
> boots practice on the drill instructors and any other random Marine they might
> be unfortunate enough to run afoul of.  They practice saluting in a similar
> fashion.  Oh, and recruits never, ever address or refer to a drill instructor as
> "D.I.".  Hoo boy, don't do that. Ever try dodging a flying foot locker while
> remaining at the position of attention?  Not to mention how the next thirty
> minutes of your life is going to be hell.

Well we saw our Platoon Commander every day of basic and you better believe we 
learnt to call her "Ma'am" and salute. Getting that wrong meant that the 
platoon sergeant (a position, not a rank - he was a gergeant) would hear about 
it, and as it reflected poorly on his ability to train soldiers he would become 
unhappy. An unhappy platoon sergeant is a Bad Thing.
 
> In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always use
> the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First Sergeant
> Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to sergeants,
> master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".

We call privates "Private Clements", lance corporals and corporals are both 
"Corporal" or "Corporal Barnes" (the latter is more likely in a more formal 
situation, or when there is possibilty for confusion).A lance corporal is only 
addressed as "Lance Corporal" if you're being snarky. A sergeant is "Sergeant" 
or "Sergeant Shaw" (though a private using the latter needlessly is likely to 
get in trouble - most of the time the full adress is used by superior to 
inferior rank), a staff segeant "Staff" or "Staff Mounsey". A WO1 is addressed 
as "Sarn't Major" to reflect the rank's old name. A WO2 is addressed as "Sir", 
but you don't salute, IIRC.

> A much subtler nicety of etiquette that it took some time for me to learn
> is Sergeants Major.  A certain percentage of them seem to really get off on the
> display of fear implied when an enlisted Marine addresses them (MOST improperly)
> as "sir".  Others just let the nearest corporal or sergeant or whoever jump all
> over the offending party and correct their behavior.  This trivial task is not
> really worth a sergeant major's time.  Some sergeants major will correct the
> offender themselves, though.  Some few sergeants major really encourage "sir",
> and you will get on their shi--, er bad list if you don't do it.  Never good to
> be on the sergeant major's bad list, and usually the only way to get off it is
> when you transfer to your next duty station.  It's always fun to guess whether a
> particular sergeant major will prefer "sir" or not.  It says something about
> their character, I think.  I prefer mine without the "sir".  The other type seem
> hypocritical and potential petty tyrants.

Any sarn't major in our army who tried that on would have the shit come down on 
him from a great height, not to mention lose all respect from his NCOs. There 
is only one NCO rank that gets a "Sir", and they're practically officers (and 
get payed a hell of a lot more than most officers).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:10:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210084125.CSOK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C66EFC7.8074.9D82C2@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 3:39, Laning wrote:

> We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
> of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
> weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
> weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
> commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
> subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
> "attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a great deal
> of their lives "attached" to someone else.  There's actually a bit more to it
> than that, but that's the simple picture.  For roughly 25 years, we did have one
> Browning Automatic Rifle  (BAR) per fire team, and in most circles this is
> considered a light machine gun, but it has a small magazine.  For a long time,
> we've had one "grenadier" per fire team, who has a greande launcher modification
> below the barrel of his M-16.  This adds an interesting and useful dimension to
> the fire team's capabilities.

Sounds like an excuse to under-equip the marines when it came to MGs. That said 
NZ went to that sort of pattern in the late 80's when it replaced the section 
GPMG with an FN MINIMI and moved the GPMGs to a SFMG (Sustained Fire MG) 
platoon in the battalion, from which Battalion HQ hands out 'dets' of two GPMGs 
set up for the sustained fire role as it sees fit. This cut down the number of 
(expensive and ageing) GPMGs per battalion by quite a bit.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:11:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <memo.716017@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Greetings dear hearts.

I too have played a fair amount of laser-tag. Early on I realised that of 
our group, I was the only one with any competence at fieldcraft... despite 
several who CLAIMED to be good at it!

Eventually I had a lot of fun developing a techie character who was 
hopeless at combat, and claiming the record for number of times hit by a 
massive margin!

Of course, when I played 'opfor' I reverted to my normal competence and 
this really confused the rest of them :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:16:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003608.009ffe20@mindspring.com>
References: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <3C66F145.9793.A35931@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:45, Douglas Berry wrote:

> One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your 
> task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This 
> accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get 
> those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it 
> worked well in playtesting.

A few days back a friend and I dug out MT and did a few trial combats (in order 
to see if MT would be suitable for our other, 'D&D only', players). We decided 
that it was just a little too lethal, because it's actually very easy to get 
double damage hits, or better. After two people were turned into pink mist by 
laser carbine-8 hits we switched to TNE. TNE has proven quite lethal enough to 
encourage caution and a healthy respect in the players without killing quite so 
many of their PCs outright.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:32:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:32:27 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Chances to hit
In-Reply-To: <a9.22b10c1c.2996e737@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202101129010.14630-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
[Hitting with 1% probability while shooting]
> We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, and it 
> proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost lynched us. We 
> dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for innovation in game 
> design . . . :  )

Last time I played in a cyberpunk campaign, we had no system.
Most of the firefights were either very short range at non-moving targets
(not much of a fight, actually) or consisted of random shooting in the
supposed direction of the supposed enemy. Usually we never even knew how
many enemies there were, who they were, or whether we hit or not.

And yes, this was very fun. B)

Might have been different if somebody had been a professional shooter; My
character was a greek heavy metal singer...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:23:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:23:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B88B7C00.24531%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 12:35 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:29 AM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
>> not just the Marine Corps.
> 
> Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill
> Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."
> 

Same here.  Calling an NCO 'sir' in the army will get you something like "do
I look like an officer?  I _earn_ my pay."

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:23:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:23:20 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEFNCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: 09 February 2002 01:32
>
> Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.
>
OTOH the time taken to determine this could vary from 1 hour to several
days, meanwhile the PC's are probably being held in custody.  The problems
this could cause them are many, from not making a meeting to losing money on
cargo to making new "friends" in prison.  In addition the Law Level of the
world could cause many problems.  This could be construed as assisting a
suicide, murder through carelessness; not to mention all the problems if
firearms aren't legal.

Generally this is a REALLY nice idea to drop on the PC's

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:29:05 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <F69mRBaYFkuutSgcOrB00003004@hotmail.com>


>>>Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per
>>>casualty, it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
>>
>>Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit 
>> >>anyone. Thus the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the 
>> >>me of fire should make luck checks to not get hit every so often.
>
>We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, >and 
>it proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost >lynched us. 
>We dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for >innovation in game 
>design . . . :  )
>
>LKW

The Swedish cyberpunk game Neotech has a mechanic where you calculate fire 
intensity (basically bullets/meter) and then roll that number of D6; every 
die that shows one pip is a hit. This works pretty well for most purposes 
including "stick it up = lose it" and there are optional rules for 
suppressive fire using this mechanic.

The second edition has a table-driven damage rules that models most aspects 
of gun combat well except blow through and blunt trauma from bullets. The 
system models Trauma, Chock, Blood loss and Exhaustion. A character can take 
numerous "flesh wounds" but one decent hit to something vital (especially if 
that something bleeds a lot) and you will need medical care. All in all it 
is a pretty good system and I would probably use it for all my games if the 
second edition rules played faster and required less bookkeeping.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:37:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEFNCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEPEDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


Perhaps, but what if the PC had grabbed the gun?  Fingerprints could easily
give a detective reason to belive a struggle w/ the PC trying to "frame" the
guy for suicide...



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:38:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:38:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Chances to hit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202101129010.14630-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <000001c1b21f$1575b350$2f7de40c@loki>

Mikko,

	Your description of cyberpunk combat is remarkable close to the
truth as describe to me by veterans of a few different wars for a few
different nations.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:31:35 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrotw :
> On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:02, Frank Pitt wrote:
> > GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> >
> > > And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> > > the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.
> >
> > I still think crossbows are a much better weapon
> > than firearms.
> >
> > Better penetration,
>
> Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?

I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
majority of bullets do.

> effectively silent,
>
> I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> heard a thing. :)

But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:28:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:28:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16Zs8e-0007yK-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

AB" <ab@rossmack.com> wrote:
> 
> A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
> 
> A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who
> have had no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low
> hit statistics.

Actually, the hit statistics for police and FBI agents shooting is 
only slightly better than for the folks they were firing at.  Taken as 
an overall averare, 1 in 6 is being generous.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:31:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:31:36 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

Not enough NCO's ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:23:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16Zs3q-0001lu-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> 
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even
> > > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one
> > > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many
> > > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Well, there are gamers (such as me) who find combat essentially
> boring. Combat is what you do when the role-playing alone won't get
> you what you wanted.  I would play the characters with the negotiation
> and the detective type skills when I was a teenager, and when it broke
> down to fisticuffs or Gunnery, I would go bake the cookies for
> everyone else.

I know exactly what you mean, I've played different games and 
different types of characters previously, but for the past decade or 
so one combat every 4-10 game sessions is a combat heavy game 
for me. Even back in the old days, I tended to play spies, cat-
burglars, techs, or psychics so combat was never my character's 
forte.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 12:20:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:20:27 -0600
Subject: [TML] Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHAEMHDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1b22d$545ae500$6501a8c0@home.com>

Speaking of real-life data, a useful resource for this discussion can be
found in the Second United States Revision of The Emergency War Surgery NATO
Handbook, which can be found online at:

http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/EWSTOC.html

This has proven very helpful to me when describing injury and wounding to
characters in realistic games of all sorts.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:31:12 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209061213.WADA319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202101028100.2689-100000@vcsweb.com>

 Personally I play CT and enjoy the openess of the game. Adding and
subtracting from it, what fits my group the best. All with great ease and
a simple set of stats to keep things balanced. Don't understand all of it,
that maybe the fun. However even with all the versions, the large amount
of books and suppliments. Mag articles an the discussion on the list. I
have never felt that I was boxed in by hard core unbreakable rules system.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:14:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] [www] 10 Feb 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <lq6d6ukhj2b6kh12tuf9i2u2pm16kmd9em@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/.  

In this update:

 - John Groth presents us with the design for the Chrysanthemum-class
   Yacht. Read about it in The Shipyard. 

 - Paul Walker gives us an Excel workbook to generate characters according
   to the original Classic Traveller rules. The Computer Connection
   features it under Traveller Programs for DOS and Windows in the
   Information Center. 

 - Larsen E. Whipsnade brings us Wounded Colossus, an outline of an
   alternate Rebellion. Read it in Other Roads. 

 - The new Seventh Edition of 101 Starships is available in The Shipyard. 


Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all
of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may
be temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of
Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to
write for us, making our existence possible.






Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:09:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <200202101608.g1AG86U29919@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "AB" <ab@rossmack.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Aiming and hit location
...
>A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
>no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.
>
>I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
>where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
>can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
>remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
>offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
>just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

  The GDW folks did an article based on that sort of (US) data back 
in "Challenge" magazine (for which a Reprint is scheduled?), and ISTR
that their summary may have been "games don't play this way, and you'd
complain if they did"?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:33:45 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: USMC WWII
Message-ID: <13d.924c54e.2997fae9@aol.com>

> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
>  > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
>  
>  Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

It was based on the experiences of Marine Raiders eatly in the war, IIRC. The 
subject is discussed completely in the appendix to the 5-volume USMC official 
history of the war -- I don't have access to a copy right now, I'm afraid, 
but I used it when preparing the organizations of the USMC for Command 
Decision.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:30:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:30:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <B88B7C00.24531%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210082651.009e7ec0@mindspring.com>

At 01:23 AM 2/10/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 2/10/02 12:35 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill
> > Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."
> >
>
>Same here.  Calling an NCO 'sir' in the army will get you something like "do
>I look like an officer?  I _earn_ my pay."

One of the hardest things I ever had to do was adjust to *not* calling one 
of my old drills "Drill Sergeant when I encountered him years later in 
civilian life.  Despite the fact that he had put on about forty pounds and 
had a nice beard, I heard that voice and snapped to attention.  He 
remembered me, which either was nice or told volumes about my performance 
in OSUT...

The there was Drill Sergeant Chin, who got off the boat from China knowing 
two words of English:  "up" and "push"  how nice that he found a job that 
let him use them all day...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:32:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210083129.009fa3d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:31 AM 2/11/02 +1300, you wrote:
> > I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> > heard a thing. :)
>
>But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Ah, he never liked that rabbit anyway.  He won't talk.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:07:03 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <E16Zs8e-0007yK-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6797C7.24962.461FBB@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 3:28, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> AB" <ab@rossmack.com> wrote:
> > 
> > A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
> > 
> > A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who
> > have had no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low
> > hit statistics.
> 
> Actually, the hit statistics for police and FBI agents shooting is 
> only slightly better than for the folks they were firing at.  Taken as 
> an overall averare, 1 in 6 is being generous.

IIRC 1 in 6 would be the law. The crims should probably get 1 in 10. If the 
situation is really bad drop the law to 1 in 10 and the crims to 1 in 20.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:10:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C679887.24112.490FC3@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > 
> > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > > (page 44 sidebar).
> > 
> > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> 
> Not enough NCO's ?

But the way the US does things you'd actually need more, because the fire-teams 
should have one each. Maybe not enough experienced sergeants, though.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:08:30 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C67981E.2823.47722B@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:

> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

I've never seen that before, I must say.
 
> Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
> majority of bullets do.

How much steel would you expect to get a bolt through?
 
> > effectively silent,
> >
> > I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> > heard a thing. :)
> 
> But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Who cares? He wasn't armed. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:56:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:56:41 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost> <3C679887.24112.490FC3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C66EC99.D72D7CC7@premier.net>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine
> > > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization
> > > > (page 44 sidebar).
> > >
> > > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> >
> > Not enough NCO's ?
> 
> But the way the US does things you'd actually need more, because the fire-teams
> should have one each. Maybe not enough experienced sergeants, though.

Alternately, if you expect heavy casualties among your NCOs and junior
officers, having extra corporals with some leadership experience (of
their fire-team, anyway) to jump up might be useful.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:57:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:57:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
Message-ID: <F113s8LJzW7iF4HTRtK000066e5@hotmail.com>

From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

     Rupert Boleyn wrote:  According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
Corps used a three fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).  
Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

     "Not enough NCO's ?"


Mr. Pitt,

     Casulties maybe?  USMC units took some frightful losses during several 
landings and still were able to get the job done.  IIRC, one unit at Tarawa 
suffered over 80% casulties the first day and still managed to take their 
objective, an airfield.
     Perhaps the Corp designed units that could "take a licking and keep on 
ticking"?
     I know that US Army TO&Es in WW1 made a US division twice the size of 
divisions belonging to the other combatents on the Western Front.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:49:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:49:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F211NdwmkQSCe837g7R0001608b@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double Adventure 
"Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat man's 
questions?

(1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?

     and

(B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, Collace or 
Trexalon?

     and

(Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone 
ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 22:26:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:26:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>

On  Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 02:44:20 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net> typed:
>>>
<<<SNIP>>>
...or Sergeant Major (for NCOs of pay grade E-9, regardless of duty
position).  Unusually tolerant First Sergeants will accept being
addressed (by subordinate NCOs, anyway) as "Top" (short for "Top
Sergeant," an older term for First Sergeant).
<<<

Hopefully I'm not boring too many people by continuing on with this stuff
again.  This should serve as useful background material for any Traveller
campaign that includes military enlisted men.

In the USMC (Uncle Sam's Misguided Children), if he is a Master Sergeant or
Master Gunnery Sergeant, that's what you call him.  Not First Sergeant or
Sergeant Major.  On occasions that are even slightly formal, if the
Sergeant Major is serving in the billet of Battalion, Regiment, or Division
Sergeant Major, it might be a good idea to say it that way.  Tell the
truth, I can't remember whether we have Division Sergeants Major.  There is
only one E-10 in the USMC at any given time, and the name of his rank is
"Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps".

We do, rarely, call First Sergeants "First Shirt", but less often to their
faces, and you'd better have well proven yourself to everyone there to back
up such apparent saltiness if you're going to do it.  Or be an officer of
virtually any rank.

I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
has been dying and is almost gone.

As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment are:
(1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant  (better
outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their face)

(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're going
to address them that way to their face)
(3) just plain "lieutenant" for either 1st or 2nd lieutenants (acceptable
in most situations)
(4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)
(5) old man, for any of the above  (most frequently used for battalion
commander, rare for company commander) and even higher commanders (such
informality should be used with care)

A related piece of USMC slang that I am pretty certain is common in other
services in English-speaking countries, at least.  (My knowledge of other
services on this one comes from reading military history, and I may
misremember or have got the wrong impression.)  Battalion, regiment, and so
on, staff officers are often referred to by their billet, and in short-hand
at that.  For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's
Intelligence Officer and people quite commonly say things like "Give that
to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2." or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2".
Further, they are said to run a "shop".  "This is my shop," or "Find
someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on,"  or "I work in the S-2
shop".

>>>
ObTrav:  The difficulties that PCs can get into by addressing an NCO
according to the protocols of the PCs' former service, rather than those
of the service to which the NCO belongs, are plain enough that I need
not go into further detail.  GT players may consider this entire issue
as covered by the Savoir Faire (Military) skill, possibly with penalties
for personnel from services outside one's own.
<<<

Good ObTrav.  And when you get to the naval services (like the USMC and our
sister service, the Navy  ;-) boy do we go out of our way to use our own
terminology for everything.  It isn't a ceiling, it's an overhead.  Not a
bathroom, but a head.  Not a bunk, but a rack.  Not a door, but a hatch or
hatchway.  Not stairs, but a ladder or ladderwell.  You don't go upstairs
or downstairs, you go topside or below.  The list is very long.  It's like
a bunch of kids coming up with their own secret language for their club.
An example of the other side of the same coin is that most civilians seem
to think **all** Marines are called grunts, but this term is reserved for
infantrymen only.  Civilians use the term grunt as if it is somehow maybe
derogatory, but Marines almost unfailingly use it with pride and respect,
albeit in a perverse way.  In other words, we at least partly hold our
infantry to be the best of the best.  I think the Army has a pretty similar
attitude, but to a lesser degree.

I've been out of the service almost fifteen years now, and my wife and I
have been together about four, and I still every few weeks use some term
that we must stop for me to explain.

--Laning
"When **I** use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it
means just what **I** choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 22:47:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] missing persons report (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202101447040.13494-100000@rhylanor>

Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:25:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Broken Empath <fadetozero@yahoo.com>
To: tml-digest@travellercentral.com
Subject: missing persons report

does anyone know what happened to David Golden, or his
excellent webpage?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:09:59 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth...

   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
"affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

                Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:18:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:18:34 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C67B69A.13173.BE8BE0@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 18:09, Hal wrote:

> For what it is worth...
> 
>    A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

In NZ it's a derisive term, as is "Lootenant" (we use the British "Leftenant"). 
This came from the military watching way too much Tour of Duty when it aired. 
Calling a platoon sergeant "Zeke" is also an insult, from the same source.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:30:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:30:35 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>; from laning@wizard.net on Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 05:26:34PM -0500
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020210163035.A25223@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 05:26:34PM -0500, Laning wrote:
>
> And when you get to the naval services (like the USMC and our sister
> service, the Navy ;-) boy do we go out of our way to use our own
> terminology for everything.  It isn't a ceiling, it's an overhead.
> Not a bathroom, but a head.  Not a bunk, but a rack.  Not a door,
> but a hatch or hatchway.  Not stairs, but a ladder or ladderwell.
> You don't go upstairs or downstairs, you go topside or below.  The
> list is very long.

It's amusing to watch my mother ask folks where the head is.  She was
never in the Navy (perish the thought!), but my old man was.  People
give her such odd looks:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only difference between Cosmopolitan and Playboy is that Cosmo sells
sex from a Producer perspective and Playboy sells it from a Consumer
perspective.                                      --seen on Slashdot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:39:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:39:23 -0600
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C658FD7.6531.5C4CB6@localhost>
References: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
 <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020210173720.00de6710@rollanet.org>

At 02:08 AM 2/9/02, you wrote:

> >   Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
> > apply:
> >
> >   Fire Team:   4 men
> >   Squad:      12 men
>
>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.
>
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

The U.S. Marine Corps uses a 13 man squad based around 3 fire teams of 4 
men each, plus a squad leader.


---------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

"Journalism is the ability to meet the challenge of filling space."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:07:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:07:18 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C67B3F6.1290.B43BE0@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 17:26, Laning wrote:

> A related piece of USMC slang that I am pretty certain is common in other
> services in English-speaking countries, at least.  (My knowledge of other
> services on this one comes from reading military history, and I may
> misremember or have got the wrong impression.)  Battalion, regiment, and so on,
> staff officers are often referred to by their billet, and in short-hand at that.
>  For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's Intelligence Officer and
> people quite commonly say things like "Give that to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2."
> or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2". Further, they are said to run a "shop". 
> "This is my shop," or "Find someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on," 
> or "I work in the S-2 shop".

True in our army, but we don't have 'S-2', etc. We'd call him the "Battalion 
Intelligence Officer" or "Int Officer". Such a person might introduce 
themselves "I'm Intelligence" in an informal (but working) environment. Those 
working in the Bn Int Section (run by a sergeant, with a corporal or two and as 
many privates as they find useful/can get) are known as 'Int Ops' (which most 
of us found quite amusing as it makes you sound like some sort of James Bond or 
CIA type, which we weren't).

> An example of
> the other side of the same coin is that most civilians seem to think **all**
> Marines are called grunts, but this term is reserved for infantrymen only. 
> Civilians use the term grunt as if it is somehow maybe derogatory, but Marines
> almost unfailingly use it with pride and respect, albeit in a perverse way.  In
> other words, we at least partly hold our infantry to be the best of the best.  I
> think the Army has a pretty similar attitude, but to a lesser degree.

Over here the infantry always used the term with pride. Other corps sometimes 
did not. This has been known to cause friction.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:26:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:26:59 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210181011.00a15a50@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   Because this list has been helpful to me in the past when it came to 
portraying the military for my own campaigns.  The following stories may 
hopefully help other GM's for their own amusement and games...

1) once upon a time, a buddy of mine served in the US Army in an artillery 
unit.  During bouts of boredom, he and his buddy hanging around in the 
barracks would say something to the tune of "Attitude check" to which the 
other would respond with an expressive expletive " <censored> you".  During 
periods of boredom, it would be a bored expletive.  During times of stress, 
it would be an angry or mocking expletive.  In any event, this tradition 
continued for a time where one person said Attitude check, and three or 
four would respond.  Soon, this fine tradition spread to the extent that 
one would yell it, and the entire barracks who heard it would 
respond.  This fine tradition was squelched one day, when one wise joker 
decided, while outside of the barracks, to yell "Attitude Check" as he 
observed an officer and a woman walking past the open window barracks.  The 
nearly automatic response to that phrase nearly raised the roof.  As it was 
described to me - it also raised the eyebrows of the passing officer.  The 
Officer entered the barracks and dispensed justice as only an irate officer 
could...

2) not for the faint of heart - the following story was related to me as 
related to me by an ex-officer.  It is of a manner that helps explain why 
some nations are not too happy to host American soldiers in bases near 
their population centers.  Read on only if such a story would not offend you.

Spoiler space



Spoiler space


If you are reading this - it means that you really did want to find out how 
one enlisted individual disgraced the US uniform.  As I do not know the 
names of those involved, nor am I indicating where this occurred, you can 
take this as a "urban myth".  Knowing the individual who related this to me 
as having been stationed at the base where it happened, I do not doubt it...

The military takes pains to insure that their personnel are tested for 
STD's on a regular basis.  If memory serves me correctly, my buddy 
indicated every 6 months.  One child brought in for examination on an 
unrelated illness, was discovered to have contracted a relatively rare form 
of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father was 
tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the same 
strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.  When the man was detained 
for questioning, he called his wife, also enlisted in the Army at this base 
and serving in the same unit - attempted to go AWOL with their remaining 
child.  Speculation from my buddy was that the man did end up in a federal 
prison for this incident, but he didn't know as he had separated from 
service before he could find out.

If you have a story you'd like to share, knowing that others might archive 
such a story for later use in their campaigns - feel free ;)

                            Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:51:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:51:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
References: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020210174937.00de3d90@rollanet.org>

At 04:15 PM 2/9/02, you wrote:

> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
>
>Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
>
>
>--

Try this link. This guy has done a lot of research into WWII combat formations.

http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/UnitedStates/united_states_marines.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:58:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Write)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:58:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #136
In-Reply-To: <200202080422.g184MkN22261@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210235835.93454.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>

Is that why you always re-up Herr General? Just to
have a "long wondrous career exploring the galaxy,
fending off evil, and basking in glorious ports-o-call
with wine, women, and song." 

I seem to remember the long arduous hours spent
pressing the sheets, working in the motor pool,
training LTs to not get us killed and seeing some
bastard senior NCO or O's face on every site reticle I
viewed. Maybe, just maybe, this poor slob is better
suited to do the time for his crime, whether it's a
shotgun wedding or not forfeiting his bail, what ever!
Or perhaps maybe he just needs to go to yahoo groups:
reaversdeep and join the Regency Reserve Quarentine
Star Ship Robert Goodwin... Crew Shares still
available...

Dave

> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:04:20 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help Wanted
> 
> Dear Mr. Lickspttle,
> 
> In regards to your request and excellent resume, I
can unburden you from your hackneyed dirt-ball
existence to a long wondrous career exploring the
galaxy, fending off evil, and basking in glorious
ports-o-call with wine, women, and song.
> 
> Just enlist, the General's looking for a few good
men.
> 
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800 "n2sami"
> <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> > Henry J. Lickspittle
> > Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire
> > 
> > Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position
considered necessary at soonest expediency. Have
well-built aspiration to depart this hackneyed
dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are
of utmost plasticity. I await you munificent proffer
of employment at the foundation of mechanical
staircase three.
> > 
> > 
> Turokan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:23:23 +0000
Subject: [TML] 3 section platoons
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211001934.02c83740@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>

Looks like the USMC simply broke up the separate BAR section/ squad and 
transferred the BAR down to sections/ squads, with a third fireteam 
occupying the old "fire support" role, while the other 2 fireteams can 
pepper pot to the objective.

Makes sense given the situations they fought in (close terrain, poor 
platoon co-ordination etc.), the squad could act as a "mini-platoon" in 
their own fight.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:45:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:45:59 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
 <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210164516.009e9960@mindspring.com>

At 06:09 PM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>For what it is worth...
>
>   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".


We used that all the time, to the officer's face.  It wasn't considered 
derogatory in the least.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:57:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:57:00 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #146
Message-ID: <127.bd4e852.299870dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2002 5:50:28 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?
> 
It was built in the shipyeards of Glisten in 874

As for cost
"It cost a great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and is expensive 
to maintain"

Hope that helps



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:56:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:56:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <20020210.195638.-137223.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:49:56 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double 
> Adventure 
> "Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat 
> man's 
> questions?

I'll try (quickly scans through Double Adventure 6)

> 
> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?

It was built in 874. 

> 
>      and
> 
> (B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, 
> Collace or 
> Trexalon?

Actually, it was built at the shipyard in Glisten.

> 
>      and
> 
> (Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has 
> anyone 
> ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?

I don't see cost mentioned anywhere, just the following - "It cost a
great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and it is expensive to
maintain, but the Thearchy has the tithe-taxes of an entire world to draw
upon."

> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: 
> http://mobile.msn.com
> 

Hope that helps.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:48:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:48:25 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210181011.00a15a50@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
 <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210164734.009e6570@mindspring.com>

At 06:26 PM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The military takes pains to insure that their personnel are tested for 
>STD's on a regular basis.  If memory serves me correctly, my buddy 
>indicated every 6 months.  One child brought in for examination on an 
>unrelated illness, was discovered to have contracted a relatively rare 
>form of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father 
>was tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the 
>same strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.  When the man was 
>detained for questioning, he called his wife, also enlisted in the Army at 
>this base and serving in the same unit - attempted to go AWOL with their 
>remaining child.  Speculation from my buddy was that the man did end up in 
>a federal prison for this incident, but he didn't know as he had separated 
>from service before he could find out.

I don't know when this was alleged to have occurred, but I never underwent 
regular STD testing.. just random drug tests.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 01:47:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:47:14 +1100
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6722A2.5060705@yarranet.net.au>

Gonzalez wrote:

> Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
> systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.
> 
> Say like the FUZION System?

I used interlock for a little while in the early 90's (about the same time a friend 
ran Call of Traveller) then switched to TNE when it came out because it was pretty 
close. As time went on I became dissatisfied with TNE and then I discovered Fudge.

I use Fudge for characters and their skill use.

For equipment (other than weapons which I worked up some basic conversions for) and 
worlds I use Traveller stats from the various incarnations and, you guessed it, fudge 
the interactions with the characters when necessary, taking notes as I go if I think 
it might pop up again.

Most of the time things can be used as is without any conversion and the game runs 
really smoothly with Fudges elegant resolution system.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 01:02:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:02:26 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20210.170226.9j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Just thought that you'd like to know that your post was dated Jan 3,
1980.... I think you need to check that date/time settings on your
computer.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 02:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:47:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <200202110246.g1B2kFU12461@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Information, please:  Divine Intervention
...
>(Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone 
>ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?

  No? Unknown; HG2 would be simple enough, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 03:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:24:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <3C67981E.2823.47722B@localhost>
Message-ID: <B88C7958.2478E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 1:08 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
>> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
>> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.
> 
> I've never seen that before, I must say.

I'd like to see this as well.
> 
>> Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
>> majority of bullets do.
> 
> How much steel would you expect to get a bolt through?

Cross bows, and conventional bows for that matter, tipped with broadhead or
pointed steel tips will penetrate most kevlar vests.  However, so will just
about every rifle caliber round.  Kevlar vests will stop many pistol rounds.
Being able to penetrate a kevlar vest is not saying much. In the case of
most of these vest, a simple ice pick driven by hand can do it, or an
adequately sharp knife.  Broadhead arrows cut the fibers, pointed tips
penetrate the weave.  high velocity bullets can shear the kevlar thread.

As far as steel armor, that depends what we are talking about. Medievil
plate armor is not even a challenge for most modern firearms.  Modern steel
armor like trauma plated for ballistic vests can stop a .30 caliber armor
piercing bullet.  An arrow won't even scratch it.  Of course these modern
armor trauma plates can weight 10+ lbs each.

As far as penetration of a modern steel helmet, this is again fairly easy.
The modern helmet is primarily designed to to fragmentation wounds, not
bullets.  A crossbow can penetrate a steel helmet, but a 5.56x45mm (.223)
assault rifle with current ammunition (M855) can do it at 500 meters.
> 
>>> effectively silent,

I have shot a few crossbows in my time (Barnetts usually) and they are
quiet, not silent.  If you need a silent killer, I recommend a subsonic
round with a silencer.  I have built and fired a few silenced guns that made
less noise than striking a wooden match.

The crossbow is an interesting weapon.  In terms of accuracy and
effectiveness, it's day is past.  An the only advantage it had over the bow
is that it requires not lengthy training.

Yes, it can be used to kill effectively.  So can a rock. If it was really
such an efficient weapon, we would see them in the arsenals of the worlds
elite forces.

Tod


--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 04:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:38:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <20210.170226.9j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210233626.00a1d100@mail.buffnet.net>

At 05:02 PM 02/10/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Just thought that you'd like to know that your post was dated Jan 3,
>1980.... I think you need to check that date/time settings on your
>computer.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Hello Leonard,
   It was pointed out to me by someone else, so the error was 
fixed.  Although off topic - I downloaded a copy of Internet Explorer 
version 6 to upgrade for my earlier windows98 version.  It whacked a few 
things out of line for my operating system (including making my FREECELL 
game).  It caused my system date to be changed as well for some odd 
reason.  But I have since fixed it.  thanks for bringing it to my 
attention   :)

                 Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:52:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Grote landgrab by the Esteemed L. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <3C6561D4.A1FA3C6C@mindspring.com>

Dear Larsen, having planned on forcing....er, encouraging the PC's to
carry a troublesome passenger to Grote/Glisten, I looked to see if
someone had done my work for me. I saw your name at the  Landgrab. Since
you seem to be done with WoCo, could you kindly post your Grote data?
;)  If you'd like I can help put it into web ready form using Mr. Glenns
format. No real hurry, I don't expect them to make it there for a few
weeks as I've engaged them in a dirty little war on Marastan/Glisten. I
love balkanized worlds. And I just found out they might get in trouble
over the Imperial reserve on Marastan. Ooooh....Trouble. :)

Jubal Harshaw to Mike. We'll sucker him into doing the work and make him
like it.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:05:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
References: <F211NdwmkQSCe837g7R0001608b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C675118.59C895DF@mindspring.com>

The Palace was built at Glisten in 874. As the landgrab owner I'm going to give
the job to the Bilstein Yards. ( Canon just says "the shipyard at Glisten in
874, from an order by the then current Thearch, Lenebid) It says it cost a great
deal but doesn't mention a figure.

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double Adventure
> "Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat man's
> questions?
>
> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?
>
>      and
>
> (B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, Collace or
> Trexalon?
>
>      and
>
> (Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone
> ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I'm just trying to get in, it's not like I'm running for Jesus.
                               -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:06:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:06:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F228jvbHdei8MwrmOwe000196ff@hotmail.com>

From: knightsky@juno.com

     "It was built in 874."

     "Actually, it was built at the shipyard in Glisten."

     "I don't see cost mentioned anywhere, just the following - "It cost a 
great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and it is expensive to 
maintain, but the Thearchy has the tithe-taxes of an entire world to draw 
upon."


Sir,

     Thank you very much for so quickly answering my plea for help.  
Unfortunately, the date of construction is a wee bit too far in the "past" 
for my uses.
     My thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:03:33 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #146
Message-ID: <F225C5EtrUVYKkpLTkU00016a55@hotmail.com>

From: SinEater40K@aol.com

     "It was built in the shipyeards of Glisten in 874."


Sir,

     Thank you for kindly supplying me with the information I desired.  
Alas, the construction date is too far in the "past" for the use I had in 
mind.  (wahhhh.)

     "Hope that helps."

     It most certainly does.  My thanks again.



     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:45:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:45:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F970bc1u6z46lsEGR4R0000418a@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The Palace was built at Glisten in 874. As the landgrab owner I'm 
going to give the job to the Bilstein Yards. ( Canon just says "the shipyard 
at Glisten in 874, from an order by the then current Thearch, Lenebid) It 
says it cost a great deal but doesn't mention a figure."


Mr. Gosling,

     Thank you for the information regarding the Thearch's Palace on 
Pavabid.  Unfortunately, the construction date is too far in the "past" for 
the purpose I had in mind.
     With regards to my Grote Landgrab, most of the information already 
exists and only needs to be whipped into "landgrab" shape.  I had been 
wrestling with trying to "massage" my take on Grote to fit canon as 
expressed in GURPS BtC, but have recently given up on that quest.  My Grote 
already fits CT, MT, and TNE canon, so GURPS can go pound sand.
     I must admit that I had shelved the project indefinitely after buying 
and reading BtC early last year.  However, my perusal of the JTAS boards has 
convinced me that my opinion of BtC is shared by a healthy majority of 
Travellers.  If my Grote doesn't exactly "fit" BtC canon, so be it.  My 
version of Grote is better than BtC's version anyway.
     Your idea about having your PCs drop off a troublesome fellow at Grote 
is a good one.  Since it's founding, Grote has always been a place where 
troublesome people end up.  Although settled early in the Marches history, 
Grote didn't become part of the Imperium until after the Third Frontier War 
and then only because it no longer had any real choice in the matter.  The 
Sword Worlds had seen to that.
     Look at Grote's astrographinc position in the Marches.  Grote is 
positioned at the juncture of four subsectors, two of which are not part of 
the Imperium.  The system is also on the Spinward Main, but only an isolated 
spur of that main.  Jump1 traffic passes along the Main one parsec to 
spinward of Grote.  The system also hosts a class "A" starport, the only one 
for several parsecs in any direction.  All of these little perculiarities 
helped me make Grote into the center of all of my Spinward Marches 
campaigns.
     Drop me a line with any specific questions and I'll type out some 
answers.  That should help you keep things going while I slap the Landgrab 
into shape.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 06:52:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 01:52:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>

Mr Glenn and Mr. Boleyn:  I was trying to say that **recruits** in boot
camp have to call their Drill Instructors and--everyone else--Sir.  After
graduation from boot camp and heading off to start training for their MOS,
things go to normal.  Any private out of boot camp ever called me Sir got a
swift lesson in military discipline.  I apologize for not explaining myself
more clearly earlier.  :->

The idea behind doing this in boot camp is that officers have better things
to do than parade around for the purpose of recruits getting to Sir them
and salute them.  Each recruit "platoon" was commanded by a Senior Drill
Instructor (a staff NCO billet) and assisted by three to five other drill
instructors (NCOs), but there was only one officer per four "platoons".
Starting out with 70+ recruits per "platoon", four "platoons" per series,
and each series commanded by one lieutenant, the series commander was
stretched pretty thin.  Drill instructors very frequently reemphasized the
point to their recruits that this was just during boot camp and that if the
recruit ever graduated from boot camp, they should **only** use Sir and
saluting for officers.

As far as officers not getting seen much by recruits, I think the reasons
were two-fold.

Sort of the good-cop-bad-cop thing, where recruits are taught to think of
officers as the remote but beloved "Daddy" figure.  There's a term for this
command style, but I can't remember it.  It's very widespread in the
military.  If you're a Star Trek fan, they tried to show Captain Picard
using this style.


The second reason for the scarce visibility of officers was that every time
there's a scandal over some recruit being mistreated and the recruit's
mommy writes a letter to their congressman, it's a lot easier to be vague
about what really happened if there was no officer on the scene.  If you're
not there, you can't be blamed.  If an officer is present for something
that sounds dubious, it causes more concern and interest among outside
parties than if it was only NCOs.  Several anecdotes supporting this spring
quickly to mind.  There was the time as a recruit that I was on fire watch
in the wee hours and my mate on fire watch totally screwed up and then hid,
leaving me to take the blame for his screw up.  The DI who was with us
overnight woke up, stormed in, grabbed me as the only visible fire watch
and therefore the one to blame and was so ticked off that he not only did
his best to terrorize me but actually lost it a little and judo-tripped me
to the deck and then punched my jaw while I was down (not a difficult
assault to achieve when I started out standing at attention).  GASP!
Eeegads, you say, a DI actually struck one of his recruits!  Prior to
roughly the end of the Viet Nam War, nobody would think twice.  In 1980, it
was a Very Big Deal.  The DI in question reported himself to his Senior DI
first thing the next morning.  While the platoon was getting dressed, the
Senior summoned me to his little office, did his best to put me at ease and
gave me every opportunity to accuse the DI of assault.  I didn't really see
any point to it.  The DI didn't even hurt me, he wasn't a time bomb about
to explode more seriously on someone else or anything, and he was a pretty
damned good DI.  And he had a Bronze Star with "V", so you know he's a hell
of a field Marine.  The citation involved being surrounded, being out of
ammo, hours of hand-to-hand combat, and machine gun nests.  He said they
spent most of the night throwing the grenades that landed at their feet
back down at the NVA, throwing rocks at NVA, and trying to fool the NVA
into thinking they still had machine gun and rifle ammo.  He taught us that
an e-tool is usually your best choice for a melee weapon, and you could
tell it was experience not theory.  He was Force Recon, btw.  It would have
been a loss to the Corps to have to bust him, throw him in the brig for
assault, and take his stripes away.  The fallout was that the DI in
question was concealed a few feet away during this interview and heard
every word as I completely refused to rat him out.  In fact I said,
"Whatever happened, I had it coming", and by then the DI had already
learned that it was the other fire watch who'd screwed up, not me.  For the
rest of boot camp, his attitude towards me changed from "damned college
kid" to "I know he's no weasel".  He really started liking me when we got
to our rapelling training and I rapelled with such fiendish abandon that it
actually scared the DIs, plus when we got to pugil sticks, I took out my
opponent in about two seconds.  The icing on the cake was that his knuckles
were bruised and swollen for two weeks after punching me and my jaw was
fine by noon chow time.  We both got a laugh out of that.  On graduation
day he asked me if my jaw was made of lead or something.  Um, anyway I'm
babbling again.  If an officer had been present for any part of that
incident, the whole molehill would have turned into a Matterhorn.  Who
needs it.


My attitude is don't worry too much about the "lack of officer supervision"
I described.  IMHO, it's okay, because you can usually be pretty safe
entrusting a Marine corporal, sergeant, or staff NCO with a lot more
responsibility than the Army usually seems to be comfortable with giving
their NCOs and senior sergeants.  Partly because the discipline is stronger
so you're more sure we'll follow doctrine, and partly because rank comes
slower in the Marine Corps so our guys tend to have more experience and
training by the time they reach a given rank.  Plus, as mentioned in my
earlier post, selection standards for IQ and education are a bit higher, so
you theoretically have better starting material.  Oh, another big factor.
There were so many abuse scandals in the 1950s and 1960s that the USMC has
long since put into place very thorough and detailed procedures and
doctrine to guide drill instructors through just about every conceivable
situation safely, and the DIs themselves have to submit tons of
documentation every day to monitor things.  Then, if someone screws up and
it turns out a DI didn't follow doctrine in an incident, you blame the DI,
not doctrine and not an officer.  Take away a stripe and give him some
administrative punishment.  DI's can very easily get the stripe back when
they are returned to duty two to four weeks later.  (No faster place to
lose or gain rank than the drill field, it's nothing like the Fleet.)  If
it turns out the DI really did a big screw up then you punish him really
big, instead of a hand slap.  When they get hand slaps, the documentation
in the DI's record book tends to get lost when they transfer from the drill
field.  It isn't a blot on their career when that happens.  If an officer
is found involved in an incident, even a small one, it isn't nearly so
easily forgotten.  You've just ended the officer's career and wasted all
the training invested in him.

I'm not surprised that attitudes are different in other countries, because
the U.S. has earned a reputation as most litigious society in the world, so
we're more likely to develop this sort of doublethink approach to things.
"The bull____ piles up so fast and deep over here, you need wings to keep
from drowning."  I'm not saying we do things better in the USMC.  I'm
saying we have a somewhat different situation, so we handle it differently.
 The US Army doesn't handle it the same as way we do either, because their
circumstances also aren't the same.  Each country and service does things
somewhat differently.  I get the impression that the British Royal Marines,
for instance, are a lot less namby-pamby with recruit training than we are,
and more focused and intense at the same time.  Any Royal Marines on the
list who care to speak up?

ObTrav:  This should be good material to inspire referees with minor plot
ideas and background detail.  Also for players with no military experience
to flesh out their characters and role play a military character more
convincingly.  Heck, with a little preparation and some good roleplaying,
you could run a campaign for months with the characters staying in boot
camp and learning their little lessons and having incidents.  You just need
players crazy enough.  They'd probably build a team bond like no other
group of adventurers you've ever seen.

--Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML   (Proud to have made
sergeant (E-5) in **only** five years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were
two years when not one single person in my entire MOS made corporal.  In
retrospect, if I'd done a stint on the drill field I might have moved
faster.  It probably would have made a better Marine of me, too.)
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:01:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211070347.ILAK319.dorsey@link>

US Army slang, not USMC.  :->

I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address his
lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part humor
part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
part serious>
--Laning

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 18:09:59 -0500, Hal <hal@buffnet.net> typed:
>>>
For what it is worth...

   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
"affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:30:03 -0500
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re:  Military
 Units)
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>

Mr. Boleyn, I would have to look at references to see the exact
before-and-after of MG strengths for an infantry battalion.  I think it
probably went up for MGs proper per battalion, but of course we lost those
nifty BARs (a blessing or a curse, depending on who you talk to).  Since
BARs are properly considered automatic rifles and not MGs, this makes sense
in its own way.  The major reason for the change seems to have been
standardization of ammo types, since we were transitioning to the M-16
rifle at about the same time, and supplying different ammunition all the
way down to each individual fire team level genuinely is a problem to be
avoided.  The new solution was to say that all Marines should keep their
M-16s switched to semi-automatic except for the one who was designated the
Automatic Rifleman, who keeps his M-16 switched to full auto.  The same
name that the BAR man had before, IIRC.

If you set the politics of these kinds of decisions aside, it is of course
ludicrous to claim that an "automatic rifleman" with an M-16 has anything
like the range, penetration, and damage of a BAR.  On the gripping hand, a
rifle squad often finds itself with the luxury of an M-60 machine gun or
two attached after this reorganization, and an M-60 is much more powerful
than a BAR.  The .50 cal machine guns are also more plentiful in the USMC
than in most countries/services, and if you have one or some of these
attached to your platoon, that's pretty sweet.  These things have
ridiculous range and power, and can make a huge difference.  They're also
damned heavy and bulky and require lots of cleaning maintenance and lots of
heavy ammo.  Therefore, it isn't practicable to put them on the TO&E for
lower level units unless they have everyone mounted in vehicles.

Squads still spend a lot of time with no MG attached at all though, and
they have long since learned how to be combat effective without one.  I
think that's a Good Thing, since platoon leaders and company commanders get
much more flexible control out of their MG assets this way and are able to
redistribute them in the most efficient manner for each task.  The squads
without MGs are that much more mobile and agile for not having the burden.
They also tend to use all the capabilities they **do** have and use them
well, rather than make every squad psychologically dependent on having a MG
in order to be a significant unit on the battlefield.


I know that the USMC has reorganized this yet again in recent years, but
I'm not sure of the exact TO&E.  My search of the official USMC Web site
didn't turn this info up before I lost patience.  I believe we don't even
have three fire teams per squad any longer, eek!  I'm not sure about the
exact place in the TO&E of the "new" MG (name escapes me...oh yeah the SAW
or Squad Automatic Weapon) that fires the same round as the M-16, but I
think they were planning to deploy one with each fire team back at the time
I left the service.  I applaud the idea of getting heavier firepower
available at the fire team level, but I am afraid they've confused rate of
fire for weight of fire--an unfortunately increasingly widespread way of
looking at things for decades now.  Frank Chadwick's combat rules always
seemed to take that point of view also, which is my major reason for not
being fond of most of his stuff.  I remember talking to him about this
topic years ago at a con, and he was very closed to any other viewpoint.
We agreed to disagree, or at least he agreed I had a right to be stupid,
lol.  But I do like 'Striker', for the most part, and I understand that was
largely his work(?)  BTW, rate of fire basically means how many bullets per
minute, and weight of fire the total weight of the bullets fired in a
minute.  This is a controversial topic at least in some circles, but it's
pretty widely accepted among analysts to assume that there is no difference
between firing a bunch of lighter bullets (typically less stopping/killing
power) and firing a smaller bunch of heavier bullets (typically more
stopping/killing power), as long as the total weight of the bullets fired
during a period of time adds up to the same thing.  And as long as the
target is actually within range of both.  Many analysts can even "prove"
this is true with empirical data.  Many of these same analysts have never
fired a rifle nor worn a military uniform, too.  They to like reducing
equations and eliminating as many variables as possible for its own sake,
IMO.  Needless to say, I differ with this school of thought and think there
is a difference between quality and quantity that is being ignored.  The
controversy simmers on.


Further, an ObTrav about rate of fire vs. weight of fire:  IMTU, the gauss
rifle does 2D damage and gauss pistol does 1D damage.  I'd have to look
again to see whether I've boosted their penetration, which is very
possible.  The projectiles may be moving at extremely high velocity, but
they are also extremely light weight and almost certainly have a lot of
spin for stability too.  I am unimpressed by "blow through" unless the
projectile strikes bone or something.  But you can carry a lot more gauss
ammo than gunpowder ammo, and get more opportunities at group hits for
autofire as a consequence of that.  I nick laser weapons' damage way down
from what is canon, too.  I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
fire, if you know what you're doing.  Gauss, laser, and plasma/fusion
weapons still have their much longer direct-fire range than other things,
even if they cannot fire in the indirect role.  Depending on the opponent,
there may be a morale effect for having to face exotic, high-tech weapons
like lasers and such.  Much the way police carry shotguns partly because of
how it deflates the morale of any criminals or other people they confront.

--Laning
"There was two-an'-thirty Sergeants,
  There was Corp'rals, forty-one
There was just nine 'undred rank an' file
  To swear to a touch o' sun"
-Rudyard Kipling, 'The Shut-Eye Sentry'
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On 10 Feb 2002 at 22:10:15 +1300, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
typed:
>>>
Sounds like an excuse to under-equip the marines when it came to MGs.
<<<
In response to my post from 10 Feb 2002 at 3:39, in part:
> We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
> of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
> weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
> weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
> commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
> subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
> "attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a
great deal
> of their lives "attached" to someone else



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:36:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:36:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net>

No doubt this has been brought up before.

I had a look at the GDPs and trade volumes of various real-world Earth
nations to get a figure for Earth's "Gross World Product".  I arrived
at a GWP of 50 trillion US dollars.  Now, Earth is a TL 7 world, and
so by the tables should have a per-capita GWP of 1430 Cr.  This would
produce a GWP of 8.9 TCr.  Hence I conclude that an Imperial Credit
should be roughly the equivalent of 5 US dollars.  Which is what I
thought it was anyway :)  Good to see that it makes sense.

Now, one interesting thing is the huge range of regional GDPs over
various Earth nations.  This is no doubt be exacerbated by being
balkanised.  Even so, it is not at all hard to imagine that one tech
level C world might have 5 or even 10 times the GWP of another.  Even
within a single non-balkanised world, some regions might be much
poorer than others.

I imagine that the figures in Far Trader are for the averages, with
some worlds of a given tech level richer, and others poorer.  This
could be interesting for merchant characters who go to a TL C world
expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
have done some basic research first :/

BTW, if the Earth as a whole is TL 7, with associated per-capita
product as per Far Trader, then the US has a per-capita output
somewhere between GURPS tech levels 10 and 11 (classic TL D)
;^)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 13:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:12:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <000201c1b2d2$6f367240$11111111@horace>

> One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your
> task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This
> accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get
> those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it
> worked well in playtesting.

Warhammer Fantasy Role Play has a similar rule:  All damage is rolled with a
d6.  Roll a six and you get to roll again to hit.  Hit again and you get to
roll damage again.

After that second to hit roll every time you roll a six you get to roll
damage again without needing the to-hit roll.  So there is theoretically no
upper limit (although practically the best I ever saw was four sixes in a
row.)  Thus the lowliest peasant can get lucky and kill the most fearsome
warrior.

Even if you are super-competent it makes you think twice before going into
combat.

Regards.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:14:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88CBD61.24828%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 10:52 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Mr Glenn and Mr. Boleyn:  I was trying to say that **recruits** in boot
> camp have to call their Drill Instructors and--everyone else--Sir.  After
> graduation from boot camp and heading off to start training for their MOS,
> things go to normal.  Any private out of boot camp ever called me Sir got a
> swift lesson in military discipline.  I apologize for not explaining myself
> more clearly earlier.  :->

IIRC, that's a marine thing. Like Doug B (who I think you mean, not Mr.
Boleyn), I was in the army.  While in boot camp, the instructors were
referred to as 'drill sergeant', as in "Yes Drill, Sergeant!", of course, in
private we referred to our DI as 'squat monkey'. A fine gentleman, who I
later met after I got my bar. It was very weird to have him call me 'sir'.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:29:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6780F3.BFAA8857@attbi.com>



Laning wrote:

> I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
> has been dying and is almost gone.

Depends, I never heard Gunner used in conjunction with Marine WO's
in the USN Gunner is the title for a Gunners mate's WO, as is Bosun
the the title for Boatswain's Mates WO, and I have know several of
both.

> (4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
> regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)

This is what I get for answering things in reverse order. Also note
skipper is not uncommon way to refer to Any boats commander.


-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:22:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:22:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3C677F33.33D1CAEE@attbi.com>



Hal wrote:
> 
> For what it is worth...
> 
>    A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

Hey, you guys also forgot that it's not uncommon in Marines to
refer to the company comander as Skipper. But, then again he 
is a Capt. how should of had his shiny rubbed off by then.

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:37:22 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re:
 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Military Units)
In-Reply-To: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88CC2C2.24840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 11:30 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>
> 
> Further, an ObTrav about rate of fire vs. weight of fire:  IMTU, the gauss
> rifle does 2D damage and gauss pistol does 1D damage.  I'd have to look
> again to see whether I've boosted their penetration, which is very
> possible.  The projectiles may be moving at extremely high velocity, but
> they are also extremely light weight and almost certainly have a lot of
> spin for stability too.  I am unimpressed by "blow through" unless the
> projectile strikes bone or something.

One of the things to remember about gauss weapon is that there is more to
consider than just energy.  Once a projectile exceeds 1450 m/s (the speed of
sound in tissue) normally elastic tissues start to behave more like solids.
Muscle strikes produce shallow traumatic wounds, and organs tend to
'shatter'.  Studies by SIPRI (see 'Antipersonnel Weapons', 1977) suggest
that should these type of weapons be employed, totally new techniques of
wound repair and debridement may need to be developed. Further, assuming
that gauss round are long (high sectional density, like flechettes), there
is a likelihood that they will bend or hook, increasing retardation rate
(Mach's equation) transferring their energy much more rapidly than
conventional projectiles. Also, like flechette, their path through tissue
will probably be near random, unlike current FMC ammunition, which tends to
follow a more linear path, even if it tumbles on transitting media.


> But you can carry a lot more gauss
> ammo than gunpowder ammo, and get more opportunities at group hits for
> autofire as a consequence of that.

I assume that gauss weapons normal mode of fire would be burst.  Three to
five rounds fired at a rat of 2000-2500 rounds per minute.  This will
produce the likeliest probability when firing at point target with the least
ammunition (See project SALVO).

> I nick laser weapons' damage way down
> from what is canon, too.  I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
> fire, if you know what you're doing.  Gauss, laser, and plasma/fusion
> weapons still have their much longer direct-fire range than other things,
> even if they cannot fire in the indirect role.

Likely gauss and laser weapons will be limited to an effective range of 300
meters or so anyway.  Studies show that the likelihood of SEEING a target
(enemy soldier) at 300 meters is only about 10%, and drops to effectively 0
at 500 meters.  In a sense, lasers will be no more effective than more
conventional weapons for this reason.  An assuming a single shot burst of
light energy when firing, they may have a lower hit rate than more
conventional weapons because the don't have the multi-round burst to
compensate for aiming error,  Even the fact that have no ballistic arc makes
little difference. At combat ranges, this has almost no effect.  The zero-G
environment seems to be the only justification for laser small arms. True,
the Traveller laser rifle does damage, but it is easily defeated by thing
like prismatic aerosols.

The plasma and fusion guns are another matter, as they have area effect, and
are really more like grenade launchers with more direct fire capability

> Depending on the opponent,
> there may be a morale effect for having to face exotic, high-tech weapons
> like lasers and such.  Much the way police carry shotguns partly because of
> how it deflates the morale of any criminals or other people they confront.

Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.
My particular favorite is the TeleShot silent shotgun shell.

Tod 

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:28:08 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Justin Bunnell wrote :-
> 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?

No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
(great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
for hours, potentially.

The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even then).

> 3) Hits to limbs.  Should a rifle hit to the arm make that arm useless
> or simply painful?  A shot through the thigh does what to your ability
> to leap tall buildings in a single bound?

High velocity missile impacts shatter bone, and shear vessels.
Incapacitation would be usual ; if you're "lucky", there'll only be a lot
of pain and visible bleeding.

> 4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a
> cricitcal success. How well does clotting stop non-major artery
> hits anyway?
Arterial bleeding very rarely stops spontaneously, so this is appropriate.
The mechanism is vessel spasm rather than clotting.
Direct pressure should be applied to enable clotting (first aid),
or vessel repair (surgery).

The use of ultrasound to effect coagulation is a current research topic.

> 5) Unconsciousness and Death.
Rupert Boleyn has already pointed out that what usually happens is
that people last for a few hours before collapse from decompensated shock.

Massive injuries severe enough to produce prompt unconsciousness are rare,
and
are usually fatal (penetrating head injuries are the best example).

Suggestion :-
A spectacular failure on the HT roll (17,18 on 3d6) following a blow
to the head or vitals leads to unconsciousness, otherwise damage is
resolved normally.

> 7) At -12 HT, they start making death rolls.  It can take a LONG time w/o
> medical help before this happens.  Is this reasonable?
Yes. The mortality from trauma (all causes) falls into three peaks :-
i. Within minutes - massive injury (e.g. high spinal cord or aortic
transection)
ii. Within 24 hours - despite resuscitation and appropriate surgery
(uncontrollable haemorrhage)
iii. Within 4 weeks - complications of (multi-organ) failure* and recovery
from the initial insult.

* usually complications of head injuries and chest infections ;
occasionally sepsis from other sources.

> 8) Finally with all this going on, how do we think lasers will change
> things?
It will take some enormous breakthroughs to produce man-portable
lasers which will deliver enough energy to be effective in an anti-personnel
role (punching holes, causing major burns), as opposed to blinding devices.

Vehicle mounted anti-missile or anti-vehicle weapons are a separate topic
which will not be discussed here.

The available literature suggests that laser wounds are indistinguishable
from blast effects. Strap a few grams of TNT to an object, detonate and
see what happens.

This is not particularly different in kind (from my point of view) to
the effects of hypervelocity munitions (muzzle velocity over 1500m/sec),
where craters are formed in tissue which are difficult to manage.
At least with the laser vessel cautery is more likely.



Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:40:39 -0000
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208100238.0238e730@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>
Message-ID: <002e01c1b2e8$cbf56b60$8500a8c0@imogen>

Eric wrote:
> I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
> available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Try

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/tu-static.html

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <B88CBD61.24828%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020211105151.34721.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>

Regardless, A Navy chief is called "Chief" by everyone, from the lowest
seaman recruit to the Chief of Naval Operations.  Even other chiefs
call him or her "Chief."

-- Gerry "A New Chief, But Still A Chief" Harris



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 11:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:17:05 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 1:52, Laning wrote:

> Sort of the good-cop-bad-cop thing, where recruits are taught to think of
> officers as the remote but beloved "Daddy" figure.  There's a term for this
> command style, but I can't remember it.  It's very widespread in the military. 
> If you're a Star Trek fan, they tried to show Captain Picard using this style.

Oh, we got that too. But to remind us of this god-like person's existence we 
got to parade and be inspected by them each morning. This was of course also a 
fine opportunity for the sergeant and corporals to find fault and assign blame 
and punishments. All in all a very useful little device the morning parade.

> The second reason for the scarce visibility of officers was that every time
> there's a scandal over some recruit being mistreated and the recruit's mommy
> writes a letter to their congressman, it's a lot easier to be vague about what
> really happened if there was no officer on the scene.  If you're not there, you
> can't be blamed.  If an officer is present for something that sounds dubious, it
> causes more concern and interest among outside parties than if it was only NCOs.

We don't have congressmen, and ministers of parliment over here don't seem to 
pay much attention unless it looks like a beating or sexual harrasment 
situation (and that's the Navy's baliwack).

>  Several anecdotes supporting this spring quickly to mind.  There was the time
> as a recruit that I was on fire watch in the wee hours and my mate on fire watch
> totally screwed up and then hid, leaving me to take the blame for his screw up. 
> The DI who was with us overnight woke up, stormed in, grabbed me as the only
> visible fire watch and therefore the one to blame and was so ticked off that he
> not only did his best to terrorize me but actually lost it a little and
> judo-tripped me to the deck and then punched my jaw while I was down (not a
> difficult assault to achieve when I started out standing at attention).  GASP!
> Eeegads, you say, a DI actually struck one of his recruits!  Prior to roughly
> the end of the Viet Nam War, nobody would think twice.  In 1980, it was a Very
> Big Deal.  The DI in question reported himself to his Senior DI first thing the
> next morning.  While the platoon was getting dressed, the Senior summoned me to
> his little office, did his best to put me at ease and gave me every opportunity
> to accuse the DI of assault.  I didn't really see any point to it.  The DI
> didn't even hurt me, he wasn't a time bomb about to explode more seriously on
> someone else or anything, and he was a pretty damned good DI.  And he had a
> Bronze Star with "V", so you know he's a hell of a field Marine.  The citation
> involved being surrounded, being out of ammo, hours of hand-to-hand combat, and
> machine gun nests.  He said they spent most of the night throwing the grenades
> that landed at their feet back down at the NVA, throwing rocks at NVA, and
> trying to fool the NVA into thinking they still had machine gun and rifle ammo. 
> He taught us that an e-tool is usually your best choice for a melee weapon, and
> you could tell it was experience not theory.  He was Force Recon, btw.  It would
> have been a loss to the Corps to have to bust him, throw him in the brig for
> assault, and take his stripes away.  The fallout was that the DI in question was
> concealed a few feet away during this interview and heard every word as I
> completely refused to rat him out.  In fact I said, "Whatever happened, I had it
> coming", and by then the DI had already learned that it was the other fire watch
> who'd screwed up, not me.  For the rest of boot camp, his attitude towards me
> changed from "damned college kid" to "I know he's no weasel".  He really started
> liking me when we got to our rapelling training and I rapelled with such
> fiendish abandon that it actually scared the DIs, plus when we got to pugil
> sticks, I took out my opponent in about two seconds.  The icing on the cake was
> that his knuckles were bruised and swollen for two weeks after punching me and
> my jaw was fine by noon chow time.  We both got a laugh out of that.  On
> graduation day he asked me if my jaw was made of lead or something.  Um, anyway
> I'm babbling again.  If an officer had been present for any part of that
> incident, the whole molehill would have turned into a Matterhorn.  Who needs it.

Our platoon commander wasn't present all the time, just often enough that you 
had to keep aware of things. Besides a good officer knows when to be blind and 
not see things.

> My attitude is don't worry too much about the "lack of officer supervision" I
> described.  IMHO, it's okay, because you can usually be pretty safe entrusting a
> Marine corporal, sergeant, or staff NCO with a lot more responsibility than the
> Army usually seems to be comfortable with giving their NCOs and senior
> sergeants.  Partly because the discipline is stronger so you're more sure we'll
> follow doctrine, and partly because rank comes slower in the Marine Corps so our
> guys tend to have more experience and training by the time they reach a given
> rank.

Sounds more like the way do things. Even in the Territorials (part-timers) a 
Sergeant who'd served less than six years was almost unheard of. In the Regular 
Force six year Lance Corporals aren't uncommon.

> --Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML   (Proud to have made
> sergeant (E-5) in **only** five years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were two
> years when not one single person in my entire MOS made corporal.  In retrospect,
> if I'd done a stint on the drill field I might have moved faster.  It probably
> would have made a better Marine of me, too.)

Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 11:28:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:28:23 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]__Autofire_support_weapons_in_TO&E_=28was_Re:=A0_Military__Units=29?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6861A7.23637.2FEF56@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 2:30, Laning wrote:

> I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
> fire, if you know what you're doing.

I remember watching with interest as a SFMG det set up their two FM MAG on 
tripods and carefully surveyed everything. Later on they did a fire-power demo 
for us (for a change our company had all this spare ammo and naturally one 
should never have ammo left over at the end of a training year). One of the 
things they did was an indirect fire shoot at night with 1 in 5 tracer. They 
landed their beaten zone on the target first time (and it was an un-preplanned 
one, because they got one of us riflemen to call it in). Great fun.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 12:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:22 +1000
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>

From: Rupert Boleyn 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > (page 44 sidebar).
 > 
 > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

"How many Marines does it take to change a light-bulb?"

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 13:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:05:54 +1000
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re: Military Units)
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006501c1b2fd$55d24c40$525d8690@computer>

> From: Laning
> The .50 cal machine guns are also more plentiful in the USMC
> than in most countries/services, and if you have one or some of these
> attached to your platoon, that's pretty sweet.  These things have
> ridiculous range and power, and can make a huge difference.  They're also
> damned heavy and bulky and require lots of cleaning maintenance and lots
> of heavy ammo.  Therefore, it isn't practicable to put them on the TO&E
> for lower level units unless they have everyone mounted in vehicles.

At work I am currently writing a bit of a short history of the battle of
Milne Bay in 1942.  This involves talking to a bunch of people who were
there.

One thing that has come up is the role of US Engineers in the battle.
Basically, at the critical point of the battle*, the Japanese were enfiladed
by all these half-tracks with .50 cals mounted on them....  Apparently this
had _something_ to do with the Japanese defeat.

Another thing that has arisen is the sheer amount of "stuff" that was flying
around that night.  Visibility was a bit of a problem - it was pitch-black
(aside from flares), so a lot of what was being fired off wasn't
particularly precisely aimed .  This included artillery, two battalions
worth of infantry fire, and so on.  Apparently the mortar platoons of the
infantry battalions were firing at their absolute minimum range, and the
crews were worried about their fire dropping vertically back on their
positions.

The saving throw model does seem to fit what was going on pretty well.

> Squads still spend a lot of time with no MG attached at all though, and
> they have long since learned how to be combat effective without one.  I
> think that's a Good Thing, since platoon leaders and company commanders
> get much more flexible control out of their MG assets this way and are
> able to redistribute them in the most efficient manner for each task.  The
> squads without MGs are that much more mobile and agile for not having the
> burden.

Apparently in WWII, Australian units would occasionally leave their LMGs
(Brens) behind when they went on patrols.  At Milne Bay the Colonel of the
2/10th Battalion** organised his battalion as a "large-scale fighting
patrol" when it had to advance to engage the Japanese: an entire company
left their Brens behind, another two left behind all but one per platoon,
while only the last (rifle) company took its full complement behind.  The
battalion also borrowed extra SMGs.  They got chewed up badly.

Units on the Kokoda Track left behind all but one MMG and one 3" Mortar from
their MMG and Mortar platoons.  This, of course, was due to the difficulty
of carrying them, and their ammunition, along the track.  Exhaustion was a
major problem on the Kokoda Track, even for fresh troops moving up to the
front, while all supplies had to be carried on peoples' backs, or dropped by
air.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

* The assault on No. 3 Strip, if anyone is familiar with the engagement in
question.

** The Australian army in WWII was divided between Australian Imperial Force
(AIF) and militia units.  Units with names of the 2/x form are AIF.  These
were generally more experienced than the militia, although the militia were
good troops too.  The AIF were also more experienced than US troops in
1942/43...










From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 13:08:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:08:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1b2fd$56b420c0$525d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> >   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an
> > "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".
> We used that all the time, to the officer's face.  It wasn't considered
> derogatory in the least.

People may recall a post of mine a couple of months back about a WWII
Lieutenant whose name was Garland, and whose men called him "Judy" to his
face.  They were, of course, Commandoes.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 14:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:30:45 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F696ekdGlrn8LOLP9r700002df8@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "IIRC, that's a marine thing."


Mr. Glenn,

     It's a USN boot camp thing too, with all the attendent faux pas of 
calling E-3 corpmen "sir".  We learned pretty fast that you only "sirred" an 
officer and the fellows with the CC* aiguillette.
     My military address sea story follows:

     I pulled a ~8 month fleet tour prior to attending nuc propulsion school 
and drew a billet aboard a trig Leahy-class CG coming out of the yards.  
Great duty, really learned quite a bit.  She had a sweet 2000 PSI 
superheated propulsion system.
     The Main Propulsion Assistant aboard was a senior chief.  The billet 
normally drew an officer, but Senior Chief Machinist Mate Middleton filled 
it.  He knew more about steam plants than their designers.  I learned more 
from him than I did at "A" school.  He was also a bit of a "salt" and 
enjoyed his role among the crew.
     One day, he and I were strolling down the pier on our way to a valve 
shop when a newly-minted female ensign popped up.  Middleton had problems 
with new officers and had real problems with new officers with couldn't go 
to sea, i.e. women.  He purposely failed to throw her a salute.  That meant 
I didn't salute her either.  The senior enlisted man present is supposed to 
initiate that sort of thing.  I had nervously waited too late for the Senior 
Chief to start and had ended sketching some sort of wave as we passed her.
     She called him on it after we had passed her, actually trotting up 
behind the two of us and shouting "chief, chief".  When Middleton deigned to 
turn around, she was flushed, angry, and pointing at her collar pins.  
Middleton took the stogie out of his mouth, leaned over her, and squinted at 
her collar.  He straightened up and smiled at her, then dug a coin out of 
his pocket.  Pressing it into her hand he said:
     "Ain't you cute!  Here you go, honeybunch, why don't you call your 
momma and tell her you met a real sailor today?"
     With that, he turned and walked off with me in tow.  It had been a 
perfect made-for-the-movies moment.
     Believe me, senior enlisted personnel actually run the military.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - CC means "company commander", the Navy's watered down version of DI.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:43:02 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211144518.KKUK319.dorsey@link>

Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard mention
if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more preceding
my time in.  I was 1980-86.

Of course, US Marines and/or sailors routinely get ourselves banned from
liberty in various foreign ports of call, particularly in Spain, for some
reason.  We go ashore, spend our money, get riotously drunk, can't figure
out why there aren't scads of frisky, gorgeous local women hanging out at
the base Enlisted Club, get resentful over this. someone starts a fight,
and then everyone fights and destroys all the furniture.  Can't understand
why they won't have us back for another six or twelve months.

Many of the locations where we have more or less permanent bases in other
countries have long-standing tension or resentment with the U.S. troops or
sailors stationed there.  On the one hand, the local town likes the cash we
bring to the economy and possibly appreciates the added protection the U.S.
presence provides, on the other hand they resent the boorish behavior of
many of our troops and the fact that our presence skews the local ratio of
males to females all out of whack.  Plus, as the Brits began saying of us
during WW2:  "Oversexed, overpaid, and worst of all, over here".  The
example that comes most to mind is that most African-American troops
stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were basically
hated, much more than our white troops.  During the height of the threat
from the Soviet Bloc and before public opinion in much of Europe found U.S.
action in Viet Nam to be reprehensible, this was much less of a problem but
it got worse over time.  I'm not sure how much of this was flat out
prejudice, how much was cultural clash, and how much was it being much
easier to spot an American soldier as American when the black skin makes it
a dead giveaway.


It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large military
base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in relations with
its local town.  I spent about three years at Camp Pendleton, a base
containing roughly 40,000 Marines (more than 95% males) and located in the
northern end of San Diego County, California, along the coast.  The town of
Oceanside is just outside the main gate and has a population considerably
smaller than Camp Pendleton's.  Oceanside was forever passing laws to
prevent the people from operating the bars and massage parlors and such
that used to thrive there.  The town turned into nothing but dry cleaners
and barber shops.  Over on the East Coast, the situation between the town
and Marines from Camp LeJeune where I spent a few months was even worse.
Camp LeJeune is almost as populous as Pendleton, but the town is way more
out in the sticks.  It is several hours' drive to the nearest thing you'd
call a "metropolitan area".  The bars and much more disreputable places
thrived, but there was a LOT of violence and the local police were
routinely shooting Marines every week.  It was pretty clear the usual
reason for getting shot (or dying in police custody under mysterious
circumstances) had a lot more to do with just being a Marine than with
resisting arrest or anything like that.  As a general rule, the higher the
ratio of troops to civilians, and the farther the town is from large
metropolitan centers, the worse relations tend to be.  After Desert Storm,
the military suddenly became more popular with our civilians and I
understand things are a lot better now at most duty stations.

ObTrav:  Should be apparent.  It may not always be a good idea to proudly
wear that obviously military haircut or uniform.  This will not just depend
on the planet's attitude overall but will vary a great deal according to
how big the local military installation is, how small the local town, how
long they've been stationed there, how evenly the troops are split between
male and female, how close everyone is to a large metropolitan center, how
ominous the threat is that the troops are defending against, and how
different the cultures and racial features of the troops and the locals are.

--Laning
"It's Tommy this and Tommy that..."  -Rudyard Kipling
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 16:48:25 -0800, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> typed:
>>>
I don't know when this was alleged to have occurred, but I never underwent 
regular STD testing.. just random drug tests.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:32:20 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211070347.ILAK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>US Army slang, not USMC.  :->
>
>I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
>small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address his
>lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part humor
>part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
>part serious>
>--Laning

For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and 
others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.

Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to hear it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:02:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:02:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C67EB01.5774B98E@sitraka.com>

"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

Well, fair enough, it should be trivial for any non-corrupt
law system to exonerate the PCs.

Many, if not all PCs, however, have a distinct distaste for being
arrested, not in the least due to the fact they're usually up to 
no good.

Plus, if someone wants to hang the PCs out to dry this may be 
a difficult case for the PCs to prove as they're the only witnesses,
etc.

Sure, IRL, this would be merely disturbing to a high degree and 
unlikely to land you in jail. In Traveller, on the other hand...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 15:28:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:28:25 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:__Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_?=
 stories
In-Reply-To: <20020211144518.KKUK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211072721.009eb8e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Plus, as the Brits began saying of us
>during WW2:  "Oversexed, overpaid, and worst of all, over here".

The America response was that the Brits were "underpaid, undersexed, and 
under Eisenhower."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:35:29 GMT
Subject: [TML] Military Map Symbols (Was Military Units)
Message-ID: <E16aJQP-0004Zd-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

> 
> >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
> >From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> >Subject: Military Units
> >

> >(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?
> 
For military box symbols, try this site.  

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tommouat/


Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:18:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:18:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C67EEEC.8AC26DBF@sitraka.com>

"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


I should also mention that this becomes more of an issue in
places where gun ownership is tightly controlled (like around
here, Way Up North). People know that a gun is a quick, relatively
way to kill yourself but it's simply not accessible to most of them.
Ergo, when they see a gun, it's like someone holding a holy relic.

Not that I should really claim to know the mind of someone with 
serious mental illness, but since Trav PCs always seem insistent on
carrying their guns everywhere regardless of the legality thereof,
it might be a good way to disabuse them of the habit.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:15:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I imagine that the figures in Far Trader are for the averages, with
> some worlds of a given tech level richer, and others poorer.  This
> could be interesting for merchant characters who go to a TL C world
> expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> have done some basic research first :/

I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and 'per
capita GWP' are very closely related; the most credible model of Traveller
economies and TLs I can come up with is to assume that 'TL' pretty much _is_ a
measure of relative wealth.

Note that most likely a 'TL 7' world in Traveller is substantially poorer than
the US.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:20:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:20:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
Message-ID: <RELAY3o3DjFbUcOV1Ee00002cf1@relay3.softcomca.com>

Justin Bunnell <jbunnell@yahoo.com> writes:

> > >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> > >
> > >GM: He grabs your gun.
> > >PC: What!? I jump him!
> > >GM: He raises the gun...
> > >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> > >GM: And blows his brains out.
> > >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> > >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> > >
> > >Ethan
> >
> > Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> > suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> > discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> > and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> > point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> > held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> > burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> > for example) will be a "dead" give-away.
>
> Perhaps, but what if the PC had grabbed the gun?

But he didn't, did he?  Read the exchange above.

You can play "what if" all day long.  I was commenting on the
situation exactly as described.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:29:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:29:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
Message-ID: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>

Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> > Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?
>
> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

*Three* feet of *concrete*!?!?  Are you sure you don't mean just plain
old cement?  Also, are we talking man-portable crossbow here or are we
talking ballista?  'Cuz if you're talking man-portable,I want to know
what you were smoking when you wrote this, Frankie.

Tell you what.  You bring your killer crossbow and let *me* pour the
concrete.  I'll stand behind the three foot concrete wall after it's
properly cured and let you fire at me.  That's how sure I am that
it won't get through.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:25:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:25:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:
> Hello Folks,
>    I know this is going to sound odd, but has anyone really *looked* at the
>     
> TRIN system from old data of the Spinward Marches and compared it with the 
> new GURPS BEHIND THE CLAW?  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a 
> M0 main sequence star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC 
> indicates that it is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that
>  there is a planet located further inwards towards the sun.  M class
> stars,  if they have any habitable planets, usually have to be in the first 
> orbit.

Which is an artifact of most design systems, but isn't really known to exist in
reality.  Inner limit on known planets is around 0.04AU (for a hot jupiter) and
there's nothing obviously preventing planets at any point both beyond the Bode
limit and beyond the point at which they would boil away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:47:57 -0000
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <000201c1b2d2$6f367240$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEGOCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AB
> Sent: 10 February 2002 13:12
>
> Warhammer Fantasy Role Play has a similar rule:  All damage is
> rolled with a
> d6.  Roll a six and you get to roll again to hit.  Hit again and
> you get to
> roll damage again.
>
> After that second to hit roll every time you roll a six you get to roll
> damage again without needing the to-hit roll.  So there is
> theoretically no
> upper limit (although practically the best I ever saw was four sixes in a
> row.)  Thus the lowliest peasant can get lucky and kill the most fearsome
> warrior.
>
> Even if you are super-competent it makes you think twice before going into
> combat.
>
> Regards.
>
> Andrew Brown

One of my D&D house rules is similiar, any max damage is rerolled and added
on.  There is a maximum number of rerolls allowed according to weapon type
and size (2 for small weapons, 3 for Medium, 4 for large and 5 for Giant
sized).  I found this a simple and easy system for persuading even high
level players to treat minor creatures with respect.

In Traveller (TNE) I included Con rolls when sufferring damage to lose
consciousness, with penalties according to wound severity (0 vs light; -3 vs
Moderate, -6 vs serious, -9 vs critical.) A failure incapacitated the
character for a number of rds equal to amount they failed their roill by.  I
also introduced long term affects of critical damage.  (generally via extra
rolls on the aging table).

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:21:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <3C67EEEC.8AC26DBF@sitraka.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211121906.00a76a10@mail.charter.net>

At 11:18 AM 2/11/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
[snip]
>Not that I should really claim to know the mind of someone with
>serious mental illness, but since Trav PCs always seem insistent on
>carrying their guns everywhere regardless of the legality thereof,

Hey!  It's not their fault! It's the abuse the GMs heap on them that cause 
this reaction.
The PCs are the victims here.  They should have their own support group, 
and perhaps a PAC...



-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:38:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
In-Reply-To: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOMCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Blonde Damaged Airhead?
Blonde Dicked in the Ass?

Whoa Man, that chicks got a B-D-A! (Big Dam Ass)

Bang Dat Ass!

Big Dumb Aslan? (males only: "It's MONEY stupid. You BUY stuff with it!)





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Laning
Sent: Saturday, 09 February, 2002 01:56
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA


Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
as good as Bonded Superdense.)

Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue.

--Laning
"People are stupid.  Think I'm kidding, don't ya?  I can prove it.  Look at
the way they drive."  -Gallagher
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 21:24:39 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
typed:
>>>
What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)
<<<



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:45:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <177.3672d64.29995d2a@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/02/02 10:40:39 GMT Standard Time, 
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:


> Justin Bunnell wrote :-
> > 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?
> 
> No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
> (great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
> for hours, potentially.

Unless you're unfortunate enough to get a tension pneumothorax - then you die 
pretty quick.

> 
> The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
> This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
> hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even 
> then).
> 


Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:42:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>This hasn't quite died yet.  I work for a fellow who's about 33-35,
>and he got the choice when he was convicted of stealing radios.  He
>chose the Marines, which has worked out well for him.

"The judge gave me a choice:  Army, Navy, reform school.  I wasn't going to
no reform school.  So I thought if I picked the Navy, I'd never have to see
Flagstaff, Arizona again."  (from The Sand Pebbles)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:22:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard 
mention if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more 
preceding my time in.  I was 1980-86."


Sir,

     I'll back you up on that one too.  '81 to '87 for me and the only time 
there was an STD check was in November of '86 prior to what would have been 
my third WestPac.
     They drew blood for no expressed reason and, a few weeks later, removed 
~3 men from a ~600 man crew.  Seems they were checking for HIV.  It was the 
height of that particular scare and DoD had promised those nations the ship 
would be visiting that the crew would screened.  My friends who stayed in 
said it was the first and last time they were screened for a STD.
     Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose is something 
entirely different!

     "The example that comes most to mind is that most African-American 
troops stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were 
basically hated, much more than our white troops."

     "...it being much easier to spot an American soldier as American when 
the black skin makes it a dead giveaway."

     I noticed that each time I deployed too.  Once we were west of Pearl 
Harbor, the blacks in the crew were treated horribly during port calls.  The 
Phillipines were probably the least offensive, but still no walk in the 
park.  Be it Singapore, Thailand, Oz, Pakistan, Qatar, the Gulf, wherever we 
went, they were treated very poorly.  Oddly enough, the place where they 
recieved the most grief was Kenya of all places.  I tried to hail a cab for 
some shipmates there and nearly lost an arm and a leg when the cabbie 
realized his passengers would be black and sped off.
     I've seen the same behavior on business trips too.  A co-worker of mine 
was treated with extreme contempt by our "hosts" in Lagos.  She wasn't the 
only female in our group, but she was the only black.  They didn't like her 
personal name either.
     Go figure.

     "It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large 
military base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in 
relations with its local town."

     Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass.  Alameda, CA, the town outside of 
NAS Alameda used jaywalking tickets as a handle on us.  I couldn't even 
estimate the number I paid over four years at 25 USD a pop.
     Of course when the bases close, they all scream about losing those DoD 
paychecks.  Alameda loathed us, but two supercarrier crews and two cruiser 
crews drop a lot of scoots in local coffers.  Stay away, but give us the 
dough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:52:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of

As usual, the answer is, it depends, mostly on doctrine, tech level, and
mission.  Striker gives a good approach to developing units for miniatures
wargames.

For an infantry unit, a fire team -- the basic miniatures stand in that
game -- is four sophonts.  Two or three fire teams make up a squad.  Two
squads can be a section.  Two to five squads make a platoon.  Two to five
platoons make up a company.  Two to five companies make a battalion.

NCOs and officers may be mounted separately.

For an armored unit, one vehicle is a squad, two to five a platoon, etc.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:17:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:17:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
In-Reply-To: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

He obviously meant 3 INCHES (non-reinforced)

I'll take a shotgun slug against concrete any day

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of markc@peak.org
Sent: Monday, 11 February, 2002 12:30
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete


Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> > Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?
>
> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

*Three* feet of *concrete*!?!?  Are you sure you don't mean just plain
old cement?  Also, are we talking man-portable crossbow here or are we
talking ballista?  'Cuz if you're talking man-portable,I want to know
what you were smoking when you wrote this, Frankie.

Tell you what.  You bring your killer crossbow and let *me* pour the
concrete.  I'll stand behind the three foot concrete wall after it's
properly cured and let you fire at me.  That's how sure I am that
it won't get through.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:17:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:47:32 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] OT: OZ & NZ spam Block
In-Reply-To: <F225C5EtrUVYKkpLTkU00016a55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202120540450.19436-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Don't want to take up much space with this, being OT. Do want to let the
Australian and N.Z. members know something that I just discovered. That
may cause problems for them.

 I live in the USA, my e-mail is in Oz. Recenlty I had a piece of e-mail
returned to me saying that vcsweb.com is a spamhouse. I forwarded the
information to my SysAdmin. She and her hsuband contaced the SysAdmin at
that one location. Apparently that company and their connective ones
blocked out a string of numbers that takes out or blocks the Australia
"Telstra" system.

 Anyway for my account this has been fixed. If any of the list members
there are having problems. I have a set of numbers that are the ones they
blocked. Don't know how many others have done this, thought it worth
passing along.

On Topic: Wonder in 3I how the Imperium could block system communications
if they used that as part of a siege.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:44:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

In the US, units of the same type (example: regiment) can be very diverse,
differing in equipment, numbers and organization.

The Russians on the other hand are extremely anal retentive
in the numbers, types, equipments, and the organization of their units.
They keep strict uniform numbers and types in all their regular units.
Reserve units however may be missing some percentage of equipment.
 
You might wish to start off with the outline in book 4 as a guide:

Start with 4-5 men in a fire team.

Structure will vary from world to world 
and sometimes even between units on a single world


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
Sent: Monday, 11 February, 2002 13:53
To: Traveller-Digest
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units


>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of

As usual, the answer is, it depends, mostly on doctrine, tech level, and
mission.  Striker gives a good approach to developing units for miniatures
wargames.

For an infantry unit, a fire team -- the basic miniatures stand in that
game -- is four sophonts.  Two or three fire teams make up a squad.  Two
squads can be a section.  Two to five squads make a platoon.  Two to five
platoons make up a company.  Two to five companies make a battalion.

NCOs and officers may be mounted separately.

For an armored unit, one vehicle is a squad, two to five a platoon, etc.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:47:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EB7@compuserve.com>

>>>>>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
>>>>>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if
they 
>>>>>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250
times 
>>>>>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?

No, I dont think it's safe. I'm a geek that wears a calculator watch and
only lets my Palm Pilot leave my body when I'm in the shower, but I'd STILL
like to be able to do the calculations in my head while I'm driving to work
or watching TV. So I think the conventional wisdom of keeping it as simple
as possible is correct. 


>>>>>There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the
PC's 
>>>>>want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so they
can 
>>>>>steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector
of 
>>>>>fire ...

I'm also a software geek and I'd personally be pretty PO'd at the GM if I
couldn't walk up to any computer console and add an extra level of
Difficulty to my Computer roll and disable the fire control system from any
console on the ship! 

The idea that you have to walk up to a specific fire control station seems
pretty unrealistic to me - making the need for this level of detail pretty
extraneous. 

>>>>>I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within
20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within
itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S
really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this
>>>>>system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if
ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using
pre-published designs --

Let's face it - who's really going to check your Quick & Dirty design
against FF&S anyway? I think it's been proven that even the pre-published
designs often don't match *any* FF&S! 

>>>>>While I agree that inter-system consistency is an admirable goal (and,
in-fact, the whole point of this exercise -- if I didn't care about
consistency I could just keep using HG -- or make up numbers from
whole-cloth) and would like to see as much of it as practical, >>>>>my
overriding desire is and always will be for a system that's quick, easy to
use, and self-consistent. 

>>>>>When preparing designs and deckplans for official publication it's
surely a good idea to base them on the most-detailed system (since you'll
be much more bothered by 'errors' than I am by 'extraneous' detail), but
if, for purposes of my own campaign, I'm >>>>>satisfied with a fuzzier,
more inexact approach, that shouldn't be disallowed or looked down upon.

Well said.

>>>>>What do you folks think of this outline?

I like it. Very interested in seeing next versions. 

>>>>>Unfortunately, the "Fixed" costs can't be expressed in terms of a 
>>>>>percentage of the hull used - they really are fixed, in that they're
always 
>>>>>the same number of dtons, regardless of how large (or small) the ship
is.

Personally, I like this much better than the Percentage of tons. I wish all
components could be done that way. 

>>>>>This has the drawback that, while you know that enough staterooms have
been 
>>>>>provided for the crew, the design system won't tell you how many 
>>>>>crewmembers that is.  At least in one of my games, that's a critical
piece 
>>>>>of information to know ... SO, I've added the (optional) step of
figuring 
>>>>>out how many crew there are.

Sounds like good reasoning to me. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>For drawing deck plans, here's what I want from the craft's designer:
>>>>- size (dtons) of power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and fuel.
>>>>- size (and number) of bridge and other controls
>>>>- size (dtons) of cargo bay
>>>>- number, type, and sizes of any carried craft
>>>>- number and sizes of passenger and crew quarters

I agree with all of these.

>>>>- overall size and general shape of the hull

I disagree with this. For the simple reason that I can have all of the
above fit into SEVERAL different general shapes and sizes. And as
GM/Artist/Set Designer I may decide to do exactly that. 

In the same way that Star Trek sets are often interchanged with alien ships
and space stations as the need arises. 

>>>>However, if the design is to be accurately 
>>>>communicated, the designer must decide these values and indicate them
on 
>>>>the design one way or another - so why not have the design system
produce them?<

Because it limits my creativity without adding anything that the *other*
values (dtons, crew quarters, etc.) haven't already given me. 

JMO. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:47:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:47:34 -0500
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EBB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>"Why has every version of Traveller failed?"  I think whether it has

I must have missed that one. I thought only TNE and T4 had failed, but that
previous versions were popular and well-recieved. 

>>>>>Except time travel, but who can be expected to do well incorporating
comprehensive time
>>>>>travel rules into an RPG, eh?  

Continuum is an excellent Time Travel RPG. And Timemaster, while a little
silly, can be a fun change of pace.  

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 20:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:03:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.

Sir Lucius O'Trigger and Bob Acres discuss duelling technique:

>Acres. Odds files!Ive practised thatthere, Sir Luciusthere. [Puts
himself in an attitude.] A >side- front, hey? Odd! Ill make myself small
enough? Ill stand edgeways.
>
>Sir Luc. Nowyoure quite outfor if you stand so when I take my
aim[Levelling at him.

[deleted]

>Sir Luc. Pho! be easy.Well, now if I hit you in the body, my bullet has a
double chancefor if >it misses a vital part of your right side, twill be
very hard if it dont succeed on the left!
>
>Acres. A vital part!
>
>Sir Luc. But, therefix yourself so[Placing him]let him see the
broad-side of your full
>fronttherenow a ball or two may pass clean through your body, and never
do any harm at all.
>
>Acres. Clean through me!a ball or two clean through me!
>
>Sir Luc. Aymay theyand it is much the genteelest attitude into the
bargain.

Richard Sheridan, the Rivals, Act 5

--Glenn

(Yes, I played Sir Lucius in a college production many years ago.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 20:54:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:54:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C68E65D.12436.3FCA1B@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 14:17, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> He obviously meant 3 INCHES (non-reinforced)
> 
> I'll take a shotgun slug against concrete any day

Depends why I want a hole in it. For 3" of concrete a slug will break it up, 
but a .30-06 bullet will go through and keep going (assuming the concrete's not 
too flash).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:05:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:05:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net> <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212080553.A5583@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Inner limit on known planets is around 0.04AU (for a hot jupiter)
> and there's nothing obviously preventing planets at any point both
> beyond the Bode limit and beyond the point at which they would boil
> away.

"Roche" limit perhaps?  Just in case someone wants to do a web search,
and not because I'm a nitpicker.  No, not the latter at all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:13:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:13:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] FYI -- Minis First?
Message-ID: <l03010d19b88de37ededc@[206.224.92.67]>

I had forgotten I had written this into the specs:

I'm looking at the art for the Cardboard Heroes that are to go into the SDB
deckplan packet, and two of them are "Crew w/Ship's Cat." This marks the
first appearance, as far as I know, of a pet in any Traveller miniatures*
set (unless we did one with a beaker way back when). Anyone who wants to
can use the clockwork cat from the GURPS Steamunk (metal) minis set for a
ship's robocat, but that wasn't in a Traveller product.

LKW

* Assuming you count CH as minis -- there is some disagreement over this
point).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:32:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> > but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> > have done some basic research first :/
> 
> I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and 'per
> capita GWP' are very closely related;

Oh, I agree that they are very strongly related.  However, just
looking at some nations on Earth points out that TL 7 alone covers a
pretty wide range of economic performance.  Not that I'd put Ethiopia
in TL 7 though, I was just pointing out that both the US and Ethiopia
are on a planet that Traveller would label as TL 7.

I would have to put China as TL 7 in Traveller terms though.  They
certainly have the native capability to produce things beyond 1940s
technology.  China has a per-capita GDP more than 10 times lower than
the US, equivalent to about 5 tech levels on the Far Trader table.  So
either GWP is not as closely tied to GWP as a strict interpretation of
Far Trader would indicate, or the TL/GWP relationship has been very
heavily compressed for purposes of the game.

I favour the latter interpretation, personally.  I would not be at all
surprised if each TL would generate a 200% increase in per-capita GWP
rather than 50%.  This means that I agree with your model that TL is a
measure of relative wealth.  I just think so even more strongly than
the GURPS rules indicate :)

I can see why the table would be compressed -- two reasons, really.
One is that GURPS Ultra-Tech already assumes such a relationship.  The
other is that Traveller deals with huge variations in TL and
population, and using a more realistic variation in economy would make
the high-pop high-tech worlds even more overwhelming dominant than
they are already.  Does this make sense?


> the most credible model of Traveller economies and TLs I can come up
> with is to assume that 'TL' pretty much _is_ a measure of relative
> wealth.
> 
> Note that most likely a 'TL 7' world in Traveller is substantially
> poorer than the US.

Don't these two sentences oppose one another somewhat?  If a world is
substantially poorer than the US, doesn't the first sentence mean that
it must be lower than TL 7?

Actually I suppose the US could be *late* TL 7, compared to a more
common middle TL 7.  But by the Far Trader table, that only accounts
for about 20% difference.  By 'substantially', I had in mind a
difference of 60% or so.  (e.g. per-capita GWP difference between US
and UK).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:12:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <20020212080553.A5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013461941.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> "Roche" limit perhaps?  Just in case someone wants to do a web search,
> and not because I'm a nitpicker.  No, not the latter at all :)

Heh.  Woops, right of course.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:52:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:52:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202111729.g1BHTbR19611@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211215515.NBIT319.dorsey@link>

We do not "sarge" in the Marine Corps.  (Line to be read in the same
fashion as Lt. Worf said, "I am NOT a merry man".)

When Army types addressed me as Sarge, I tried to make allowances for their
lack of proper upbringing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:44:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EB7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211162601.00a6edc0@mail.charter.net>

At 02:47 PM 2/11/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
> >>>>>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day
> >>>>>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if
>they
> >>>>>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250
>times
> >>>>>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?
>No, I dont think it's safe. I'm a geek that wears a calculator watch and
>only lets my Palm Pilot leave my body when I'm in the shower, but I'd STILL
>like to be able to do the calculations in my head while I'm driving to work
>or watching TV. So I think the conventional wisdom of keeping it as simple
>as possible is correct.

A brain dead design system is a published set of standard designs.
"This is a Scout Ship, this is a Merchant, this is a fighter..."

The next level up would be Hull A, Power Plant B, Weapons Package C, 
Secondary Vehicle Package D...
Each component has 2 to 4 numbers associated with it and everything has to 
add up.
For example, all the volume has to fit in the hull (except for externally 
mounted vehicles, like a pinnance)
Integer math, quick & dirty
You can build a ship with this, but it will have wasted space, power, etc.

Then GearHead Heaven, detailed components, actual math, room for 
optimization, etc.

This process should flow downward for compatibility!

GearHead Nirvana first, use that to make the building blocks for the 
Giranimals (tm) design system.

Build examples using both and publish.  Everything is consistent.
Yes, the gearheads will check, and complain.


> >>>>>There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the PC's
> >>>>>want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so 
> they can
> >>>>>steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector of
> >>>>>fire ...
>I'm also a software geek and I'd personally be pretty PO'd at the GM if I
>couldn't walk up to any computer console and add an extra level of
>Difficulty to my Computer roll and disable the fire control system from any
>console on the ship!

Hmm...low levels of internal system security on that ship. :-)

>The idea that you have to walk up to a specific fire control station seems
>pretty unrealistic to me - making the need for this level of detail pretty
>extraneous.

You are just not paranoid enough.

> >>>>>I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within
>20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within
>itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S
>really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this
> >>>>>system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if
>ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using
>pre-published designs --
>Let's face it - who's really going to check your Quick & Dirty design
>against FF&S anyway? I think it's been proven that even the pre-published
>designs often don't match *any* FF&S!

A whole bunch of gearheads.  Probably most of the members of the Gearhead ring.
Depends on the system you're jamming into.  If you are going for CT, ya, 
you can get real close with FF&S.
You just use the Thruster Plate rules instead of Fusion drives and make the 
listed changed to jump fuel requirements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:54:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:54:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > > expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> > > but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> > > have done some basic research first :/
> > 
> > I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and
> > 'per capita GWP' are very closely related;
> 
> Oh, I agree that they are very strongly related.  However, just
> looking at some nations on Earth points out that TL 7 alone covers a
> pretty wide range of economic performance.

TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus smaller states in
western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's not actually that variable.
> 
> I would have to put China as TL 7 in Traveller terms though.  They
> certainly have the native capability to produce things beyond 1940s
> technology.

Well, my point is that the only sensible definition of a world's TL in
traveller is that it's a direct measure of wealth, and is only incidentally
related to the actual capabilities of the manufacturing base.  I can't think of
any real-world examples of a TL 3 or 4 serious manufacturing base; primitive
areas are just flat-out poor.

> Don't these two sentences oppose one another somewhat?  If a world is
> substantially poorer than the US, doesn't the first sentence mean that
> it must be lower than TL 7?

Nope.  There's a difference between 'europe in the middle ages' (TL 3) and
modern afghanistan (probably also TL 3); they have _totally_ different
economics.  I argue that the latter is a more accurate model of a TL 7 economy
in Traveller than the former.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:41:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:41:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)
Message-ID: <20020211.164159.-224321.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Does anyone need a copy of the TNE World Tamer's Handbook?  I ask this
because there is a dutch auction (not mine) on eBay where someone has 100
copies of WTH for sale.  The link is
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1702927269&r=0&t=0
&showTutorial=0&ed=1013825429&indexURL=0&rd=1.  I somewhat doubt that
there will be 100 people bidding on this item, so anyone who needs a copy
can proably get it for the minimum bid of $9.95, plus $4.50 P&H.  Hope
this is of help to anyone who has been looking for a copy of this
particulat supplement.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:50:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <l03010d1cb88dec29e857@[206.224.92.67]>

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-02/11/11.30.tv

 "Set almost 500 years in the future in a newly established Union of
Planets, Firefly centers on Reynolds, the owner and the captain of a small
"Firefly"-class transport spaceship named Serenity. The time period in the
series is a version of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era, with Reynolds
as a disillusioned war veteran. "

Hmmmmm . . . this all seems tantalizingly familiar somehow . . .

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 22:14:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:14:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?


http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-02/11/11.30.tv

 "Set almost 500 years in the future in a newly established Union of
Planets, Firefly centers on Reynolds, the owner and the captain of a small
"Firefly"-class transport spaceship named Serenity. The time period in the
series is a version of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era, with Reynolds
as a disillusioned war veteran. "

Hmmmmm . . . this all seems tantalizingly familiar somehow . . .

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 22:39:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:39:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Four
In-Reply-To: <3C6833A6.9FD7107A@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Message-ID: <B88D8834.24A9A%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: Jean-Pierre Lockhead <jean-pierre.lockhead@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:12:06 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Four

Desperately trying to know what the number FOUR (4) is in Russian and
how it is pronounced.

Please answer back at this address or to:  jplockhead@hotmail.com
Thanks
J.P. Lockhead





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:03:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:03:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020211230336.64364.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  The USMC has used a 3-FT squad since at least WW2.
The only formal exception to that was the 11-man squad
from the mid-80's...and that was mostly due to
manpower concerns.....

      MACessna
  >>
--- Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army
> that had a formal squad/fire-
> >team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK
> everyone use two, including
> >those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a
> squad/section at all.
> 
> I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in
> Traveller:2300, we had 
> 3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of
> the British Army. See 
>
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm
> (although 2300, 
> it would be great to adapt to Traveller).
> 
> Bryn
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:07:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:07:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020211230759.3880.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  It allows the squad to function better as an
independent unit, following the "two up, one back"
rule. Also, it allows for a better base of fire, while
not hamstringing the units' maneuver ability.

  Note also that Marine FT's each contain an M249 SAW,
and an M203 GL.....

      MACessna
  >>
--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:
> 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine
> Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing
> that.
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> > 
> > 
> > Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:20:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:20:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <50.66af3d2.2999abd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/02/02 20:20:59 GMT Standard Time, 
gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:


> >From: CHam628781@aol.com
> >
> >*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.
> 
> Sir Lucius O'Trigger and Bob Acres discuss duelling technique:
> 
> >Acres. Odds files!—I’ve practised that—there, Sir Lucius—there. [Puts
> himself in an attitude.] A >side- front, hey? Odd! I’ll make myself small
> enough? I’ll stand edgeways.
> >
> >Sir Luc. Now—you’re quite out—for if you stand so when I take my
> aim—[Levelling at him.
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> >Sir Luc. Pho! be easy.—Well, now if I hit you in the body, my bullet has a
> double chance—for if >it misses a vital part of your right side, ’twill be
> very hard if it don’t succeed on the left!
> >
> >Acres. A vital part!
> >
> >Sir Luc. But, there—fix yourself so—[Placing him]—let him see the
> broad-side of your full
> >front—there—now a ball or two may pass clean through your body, and never
> do any harm at all.
> >
> >Acres. Clean through me!—a ball or two clean through me!
> >
> >Sir Luc. Ay—may they—and it is much the genteelest attitude into the
> bargain.
> 
> Richard Sheridan, the Rivals, Act 5
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> (Yes, I played Sir Lucius in a college production many years ago.)
> 

I have no idea whether you're agreeing with me or not. Are you a politician? 
;)

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:19:23 -0000
Subject: [TML] Four
References: <B88D8834.24A9A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c1b356$9b3fe5e0$7475893e@fabian>


> From: Jean-Pierre Lockhead <jean-pierre.lockhead@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:12:06 -0500
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Four
>
> Desperately trying to know what the number FOUR (4) is in Russian and
> how it is pronounced.

Chtery. Stress is on the E.

I'm revising my Russian because I'm gonna be in Moscow, but teh mind
boggles as to your reasons for needing to know :)

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:50:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~

What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.  
Admittedly, some things specific to the Buffy setting (i.e. worrying about
classes in previous seasons) don't belong in a story about a
spaceship.  But now Buffy is on her own and worries about bills. Nobody on
this list should be able to say you can't get a good story out of a
starship crew's trying to pay their bills.  And the writing is excellent.  
Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and missed
the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the same.
Getting back to the subject line, I do have high hopes for Firefly.  We'll
see.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:14:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:14:23 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
>effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
>falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
>lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
>buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.

The shotgun went out of the favor of Agent Tambo of the Regina Subsector
Special Police when its buckshot bounced off the Zhodani warbot with no
effect.  The snub pistol with HEAP worked much better.  I have a feeling
that my players are going to be requesting ACRs the next time they have to
execute a search warrant.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:44:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:44:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Aslan females in comfortable shoes (humor)
In-Reply-To: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212004658.OARA319.dorsey@link>

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who has been a long-time
Traveller player, but still hasn't got 'round to subscribing to the TML.  I
related some of the standing jokes that have evolved on the TML like the
ship crewed entirely by Aslan females in comfortable shoes.  He loved it.
He called them...Aslamazons.   <rim shot>

And my description of the whole Spofulam thing fell really short of the
original.  He did like the elephant-pack particle accelerators.  Next time,
I'll have to remember to tell him Auric Tech's slogan.  :->

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:39:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:39:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB1@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

"That's right puppy...Willow's gonna' make you *bark*."

Yes, I DO occaisionally catch the show.  Hard not to with 2 roomies that watch it near-religously ;)  (I DO wish I'd seen THAT episode though :^D )  They've got a lot of good writing, at the very least one-liner writing, but there's still something about the show that irritates me for some reason.  Maybe it's the whole branching off from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to "Buffy the Demon or Other Villainous Thing of the Week Slayer".  I'm rambling now.  I'll shut up :)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Carl Kettler [mailto:gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:50 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?


On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~

What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.  
Admittedly, some things specific to the Buffy setting (i.e. worrying about
classes in previous seasons) don't belong in a story about a
spaceship.  But now Buffy is on her own and worries about bills. Nobody on
this list should be able to say you can't get a good story out of a
starship crew's trying to pay their bills.  And the writing is excellent.  
Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and missed
the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the same.
Getting back to the subject line, I do have high hopes for Firefly.  We'll
see.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:41:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:41:43 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3.0.3.32.20020205082300.006ddad4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c1b35e$20b64b40$e3120150@jimcatchpole>

Douglas Berry wrote :-

> Unless i missed something in four months of research, the only
> other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
> Broadsword-class.
> 

What about the Iylvir (and the Belraggan) from IISS Ship Files ?

A bit small I know, but they did claim to be troop carriers. ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:48:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:48:50 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
References: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1b35f$0c2b16a0$4680f1cf@computer>


> We do not "sarge" in the Marine Corps.  (Line to be read in the same
> fashion as Lt. Worf said, "I am NOT a merry man".)
>
> When Army types addressed me as Sarge, I tried to make allowances for
their
> lack of proper upbringing.
>
> - --Laning
>

Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever
in.  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing
you, but you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A
good NCO normally picks up on them :)

KS_Lawdog


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:54:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>

Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower or
higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:48:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:48:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>; from gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <20020211174859.B29016@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
>
> Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
> Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and
> missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the
> same.

Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
the nubility?

In college (I graduated '00) all the guys would come over and watch
every Thursday evening.  Much beer was drunk, and much fun was had by
all.

Don't watch it anymore, myself, but that's because I don't watch TV
anymore.  I limit myself to DVDs and tapes.

Me, I'm a first-few-seasons Willow kind of guy...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:12:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1b35f$0c2b16a0$4680f1cf@computer>
Message-ID: <3C6922C5.25202.221940@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 18:48, The Webbs wrote:

> Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever in.
>  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing you, but
> you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A good NCO
> normally picks up on them :)

I think it depends on the NCO. Over here some sergeants will tell you it's okay 
to call them "Sarge" in an informal setting, whereas others don't like it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:36:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <20020211174859.B29016@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B88DB194.24BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 4:48 PM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> Me, I'm a first-few-seasons Willow kind of guy...

Here, here!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:30:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:30:37  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>

>I used interlock for a little while in the early 90's (about the >same time a friend ran Call of Traveller) then switched to TNE when >it came out because it was pretty close. 

IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend in the pub the other night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into Traveller. It took about five minutes.

We thought that the great old ones were maaybe the other side of the ancients war to the Grandfather and that they lost and were shut into a pocket universe. The entrance to this portal was on some world off towards the rim of anything important and under the largest ocean on the planets' surface (hmm, wonder where that is..?)

Any thoughts anyone.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:35:39 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88DB16B.24BB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 4:14 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
>> effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
>> falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
>> lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
>> buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.
> 
> The shotgun went out of the favor of Agent Tambo of the Regina Subsector
> Special Police when its buckshot bounced off the Zhodani warbot with no
> effect.  The snub pistol with HEAP worked much better.  I have a feeling
> that my players are going to be requesting ACRs the next time they have to
> execute a search warrant.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 

You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun fires
a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
whole different matter.

Special purpose ammunition exists or has been developed presently that
change the shotgun's performance radically.  A brief sampling:

Shot:    What we think of as bird shot.  Small pellets 1-3mm in diameter and
excellent against small flying game.

Buck:   or Buckshot.  Larger pellets of lead or other material used against
larger animals and personnel.  Effective to about 50m

Flechette:  Finned dart projectiles with greatly increased range and
excellent armor piecing capability.  They lack some lethality because of
their relatively low velocity.

SCMITR: A unique variation of the flechette made from a wide but thin
stamping. It features excellent penetration (steel helmets and kevlar vests
are penetrated at 500m) and high lethality due to its slicing action.

HE: An example is the Argentine minigrenade, which can be fired from a
standard shotgun, has a range of over 500m and a burst radius and lethality
about the same as the V40 mini hand grenade.

Incendiary: Again, the Argentines have fielded a quite effective incediary
shotgun shell with about 500m range.

BRI sabotted slug: This load features a wasp waist .50 caliber slug in an
18.5mm sabot.  The slug may be lead or steel, or any other material, and has
high penetration at reasonable ranges. (I shot one through both sides of a
car at about 100m)

TeleShot:   Silent shotgun ammunition.  My personal favorite.

It takes only the slightest extrapolation to add an HEAP round to the
inventory.  See my tech brief on the shotgun at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:47:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
Message-ID: <m0tg6u0662ljlm7a7n7jrekqdms5jq7em9@4ax.com>

What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
only" posting to the digest?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:43:10  0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <LBMFPAHFHMLJGBAA@angelfire.com>

Interesting to read your comments about the exchange rate between the US$ and the Cr. I've always had it ppinned at  about #1, but thinking about it that's more of a subconscious thought than one I've put aany thinking into. Now I think about it I've always thought that some things come out as being far too cheap. So maybe your figure is slightly better (making it worth about #3, at the current rate of the # to the US$)

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the value of the Cr to modern currencies?

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:57:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:57:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.ed
 u>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>

At 05:50 PM 2/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.

*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC 
massacres.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:02:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:02:56  0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <NDBIBOJJLNMJGBAA@angelfire.com>

Oh but Jesse, you *know* it will, don't you?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:11:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6879DD.8000106@yarranet.net.au>

Andrew Whincup wrote:

> IS Call of Traveller what I think it is?


Unfortunately no. He was just using the system for characters and their skill rolls.

Although he did like the baddies from the core idea...

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:18:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

:)~
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Whincup [mailto:shanhat@angelfire.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?


Oh but Jesse, you *know* it will, don't you?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:24:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <m0tg6u0662ljlm7a7n7jrekqdms5jq7em9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B88DBCD6.24BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 5:47 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

> What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
> only" posting to the digest?
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 

I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in majordomo is set right (same
as the regular list).  Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't
have any hair left.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:29:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:29:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: FYI -- Minis First?
Message-ID: <200202120228.g1C2S8P14982@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
>Subject: FYI -- Minis First?
...
>I'm looking at the art for the Cardboard Heroes that are to go into the SDB
>deckplan packet, and two of them are "Crew w/Ship's Cat." This marks the
>first appearance, as far as I know, of a pet in any Traveller miniatures*
>set (unless we did one with a beaker way back when). Anyone who wants to
...

 "Alien Animals, Grenadier 1983.
  11 figures, 25mm. Requires some assembly; 12 pieces (ed- "in the
description" or "on the packing slip/manifest"*).
  Eleven Traveller alien animals including two human animal handlers/riders
(*plus several personal equipment accessories).
...
T-28 Bloodvark
T-29 Bloodvark Guard
...
T-33 Kian
...
T-35 Rider "

  We'd have to interrogate some of the above to understand their
relationship - although if the guard works for MYMINES then we
can assume that the Bloodvark is an indentured labourer? :)

  Is there a GURPS disad: "is a pet"?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:30:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:30:31 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
References: <200202111729.g1BHTbR19611@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C687E47.FE5A0DD8@ameritech.net>


> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
>
> Dear Sir and Madam,
>
> We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> lifting capacity.
>
> Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> price. If you are interested, please contact us at:

What, no Striker stats?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:15:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
In-Reply-To: <3C687E47.FE5A0DD8@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <003c01c1b373$80485700$0f01a8c0@terry>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com [mailto:owner-
> tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> 
> 
> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >
> > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >
> > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > lifting capacity.
> >
> > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> 
> What, no Striker stats?

Keyboard kill!

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:41:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:41:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>

Whilst riding my bicycle back to the ship one fine saturday afternoon in
Alameda's pubs, I happened to go down a hill and began passing some vehicular
traffic which was being followed by a police cruiser. Moments after passing said
cruiser the siren goes off, tires squeal and I jump off the road to avoid what I
think is a car chase. Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and
asks me if I know how fast I was going? Eventually I wound up in court and was
convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture and a fine
for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give me a sobriety test as I
wouldn't have passed.

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>      "Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard
> mention if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more
> preceding my time in.  I was 1980-86."
>
> Sir,
>
>      I'll back you up on that one too.  '81 to '87 for me and the only time
> there was an STD check was in November of '86 prior to what would have been
> my third WestPac.
>      They drew blood for no expressed reason and, a few weeks later, removed
> ~3 men from a ~600 man crew.  Seems they were checking for HIV.  It was the
> height of that particular scare and DoD had promised those nations the ship
> would be visiting that the crew would screened.  My friends who stayed in
> said it was the first and last time they were screened for a STD.
>      Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose is something
> entirely different!
>
>      "The example that comes most to mind is that most African-American
> troops stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were
> basically hated, much more than our white troops."
>
>      "...it being much easier to spot an American soldier as American when
> the black skin makes it a dead giveaway."
>
>      I noticed that each time I deployed too.  Once we were west of Pearl
> Harbor, the blacks in the crew were treated horribly during port calls.  The
> Phillipines were probably the least offensive, but still no walk in the
> park.  Be it Singapore, Thailand, Oz, Pakistan, Qatar, the Gulf, wherever we
> went, they were treated very poorly.  Oddly enough, the place where they
> recieved the most grief was Kenya of all places.  I tried to hail a cab for
> some shipmates there and nearly lost an arm and a leg when the cabbie
> realized his passengers would be black and sped off.
>      I've seen the same behavior on business trips too.  A co-worker of mine
> was treated with extreme contempt by our "hosts" in Lagos.  She wasn't the
> only female in our group, but she was the only black.  They didn't like her
> personal name either.
>      Go figure.
>
>      "It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large
> military base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in
> relations with its local town."
>
>      Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass.  Alameda, CA, the town outside of
> NAS Alameda used jaywalking tickets as a handle on us.  I couldn't even
> estimate the number I paid over four years at 25 USD a pop.
>      Of course when the bases close, they all scream about losing those DoD
> paychecks.  Alameda loathed us, but two supercarrier crews and two cruiser
> crews drop a lot of scoots in local coffers.  Stay away, but give us the
> dough.
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:31:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:31:53
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F227MDrxxnSYe4nhrKt000198c5@hotmail.com>

It was customary, at least in the Viet Nam era AF in a working group 
situation, for officers to address the sergeants as Sergeant (sometimes 
Sarge) or by their last name, and only if you knew them very well by a 
nickname or first name. If someone outside the group was present, it was 
more formal, Sergeant or Sergeant Jones (or whatever). In return, officers 
were always addressed as Sir or by rank.

Among officers, you never addressed a senior officer by anything other than 
as Sir or his rank unless invited and that only occurred if he was within 
one or two ranks of you and you had been working together for awhile. With 
someone of the same rank, first names were generally automatic.

What was your experience in the other services?

John L.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
>Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to hear 
>it.
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:24:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.ed u>
 <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211222335.02047bf0@mail.charter.net>

I started watching SU2 this season. I usually come close to falling off the 
couch laughing.
It seems some tightass at UPN is cancelling it two....Grrr....

At 05:57 PM 2/11/2002 -0800, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 05:50 PM 2/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.
>
>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC 
>massacres.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:41:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:41:40 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <15d.8d40a42.2999e8f4@aol.com>

Michael Taylor writes:

>I must have missed that one. I thought only TNE and T4 had failed, but
>that previous versions were popular and well-recieved. 

 Loren has said on several occasions, and I feel safe in repeating: TNE did 
not fail.

 To add my own spin to that, I'll opine that TNE "failed" the same way that a 
retail store that consistently exceeds its goals "fails" to keep the chain HQ 
from filing for bankruptcy.

 Perhaps TNE "failed" to keep (or gain) your interest, but the TNE mailing 
list weathered a near-year-long server failure, and *still* has a better 
signal-to-noise ratio than the TML has had in many years.

|-

 T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways. May Ken Whitman and Courtney 
Solomon burn for eternity.

 Despite the earlier discussions on "what is canon?" coming to the conclusion 
(in at least one case) that Canon was what Marc Miller says it is, I hold the 
entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost entirely 
wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in the 
previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch seminar 
at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled faithful and 
rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before them 
until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

 T4 does have its bright spots, but most people won't agree what they are.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <F227MDrxxnSYe4nhrKt000198c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211225655.020a4688@192.168.0.1>

As one former Naval officer wrote in his books:

"The Admiral and I were on a first name basis.  He called me Dick, and I 
called him Admiral."

At 03:31 AM 2/12/2002 +0000, John Lambert wrote:
>It was customary, at least in the Viet Nam era AF in a working group 
>situation, for officers to address the sergeants as Sergeant (sometimes 
>Sarge) or by their last name, and only if you knew them very well by a 
>nickname or first name. If someone outside the group was present, it was 
>more formal, Sergeant or Sergeant Jones (or whatever). In return, officers 
>were always addressed as Sir or by rank.
>Among officers, you never addressed a senior officer by anything other 
>than as Sir or his rank unless invited and that only occurred if he was 
>within one or two ranks of you and you had been working together for 
>awhile. With someone of the same rank, first names were generally automatic.
>What was your experience in the other services?
>John L.
>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>>Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to 
>>hear it.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
>burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
>That's our story and we're sticking to it.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:47:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:47:28 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
Message-ID: <49.18549b11.2999f860@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/02 9:27:24 PM Central Standard Time, 
tmixon@houston.rr.com writes:


> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> > >
> > > Dear Sir and Madam,
> > >
> > > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > > lifting capacity.
> > >
> > > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> 

Saw this on rec.humor.funny on how to deal with Chinese Spam

[submitter's note: my brother-in-law is a world-class spam fighter, 
and he sent this along for my amusement. I'm sharing it with his permission.]

The government just ordered all ISPs in China to start monitoring
email for subversive phrases and the like, so I started replying to
Chinese spam with little replies of the form at the end of this spam.
Might be a useful tactic on companies who think that unsolicited 
email is "just regular advertising".

Bill

"Jack(export manager)" wrote:
>
> Dear Sir
> How are you .
>
> We are a lighting factory in China ,It is glad 
> to introduce ourselves to you:
>
> I am XUBIN (Jack) , XUBIN is my chinese name , you can just
> call me Jack  !! , I am export manager of [deleted] ,
> China, our group have four factory
[snipped]
>
> Here is our company profile :
>

[Rest of sales talk snipped]

(And now, the reply)

Thank you for your coded order. The weapons and ammunition 
will ship by way of the usual route in ten days, and you 
already know our secret Swiss bank account number to 
wire the payment to.

It is a pleasure doing business with you for so long, 
and I hope your cause will prevail. I am new to this 
particular computer, so I hope the encryption is 
working and the monitoring authorities cannot read 
what I am sending you.

Long live the Falun Gong! Free Tibet!

Best regards,
Your arms supplier
---
ObTrav:  Irritating smartass hackers causing international incidents or 
fomenting government activity....how likely?


Michael Breen
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:21:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:21:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b88e48466e15@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:00 PM -0800 2/9/02, Justin Bunnell wrote:
>4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a cricitcal success.
>How well does clotting stop non-major artery hits anyway?

Or if you make 3 HT rolls in a row  Successful first Aid 
automatically stops bleeding.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:27:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330101b88df09e0517@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM +1100 2/11/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Justin Bunnell wrote :-
>>  2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?
>
>No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
>(great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
>for hours, potentially.
>
>The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
>This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
>hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even then).

It is generally acknowledged in GURPS (at least amongst those that I 
interact with...) the that bleeding rules are not totally realistic 
but that, in fact, it is better that way.  Most people aren't 
interested in having their characters bleed to death.  There have 
been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger 
penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:20:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:20:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202120341.g1C3fqw25034@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212052227.PTJU319.dorsey@link>

Possibly, but I don't think so.  It always seems to come out in a puppyish
attempt at guessing the correct slang that a salty Marine would really
like.  Civilians have done **exactly** the same thing from time to time
also.  Usually gamer civilians who'd never had any real contact with any of
the four branches.

I was usually a fairly easy going NCO, as long as everyone performed up to
expected standards.  There were always a few who mistook my relaxed
leadership style for being a softy.  It never took long to change their
point of view if they were one of my own troops.  <very evil grin>

I preferred to treat people like adults who would honor their commitment to
being good Marines unless they proved by their actions/inactions that they
didn't deserve this.  On the other hand, the more Marines you get to know,
the more truth you see in the phrase Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.
<rueful smile>

It gladdens me to know you guys consider "sarge" just as verboten as we do.
 :->

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 18:48:50 -0600, "The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com> typed:
>>>
Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever
in.  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing
you, but you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A
good NCO normally picks up on them :)
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <20020212.002117.-326811.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


>  Despite the earlier discussions on "what is canon?" coming to the
conclusion 
> (in at least one case) that Canon was what Marc Miller says it is, I
hold the 
> entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost
entirely 
> wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in the 
> previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch
seminar 
> at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled faithful
and 
> rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before
them 
> until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

What was specifically said there?



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:37:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:37:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
Message-ID: <3C68A9FD.F6D13DA7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:15:19 -0600
> From: "tmixon" <tmixon@houston.rr.com>
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts

<snip>

>> > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>> > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>> 
>> What, no Striker stats?
>
> Keyboard kill!
>
> Terry

Hey it's been a while since I got one of those. I wonder what my total
is now? Three?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:46:55 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
Message-ID: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>

In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
>  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
>  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
>  >
>  > Dear Sir and Madam,
>  >
>  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
>  > lifting capacity.
>  >
>  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>  
>  What, no Striker stats?

Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:44:34 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
Message-ID: <119.c71662b.299a05c2@aol.com>

In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, Tod L Glenn 
writes (in his sig):

> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

go to http://www.cafepress.com/irbwgren and you can buy a t-shirt with that 
sentiment . . . and get me a couple of bucks in the bargain.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:53:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
Message-ID: <20020211.215326.-70725.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:12:21 +1300 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 11 Feb 2002, at 18:48, The Webbs wrote:
> 
> > Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit 
> I was ever in.

You're obviously one of the NCO's I wouldn't have called "Sarge."
 
> I think it depends on the NCO. Over here some sergeants will tell 
> you it's okay  to call them "Sarge" in an informal setting, whereas
> others don't like it.

Depends on the units location, for sure.

When stationed at Ft Ord, Ca. USA everything was "by the book", but when
we transferred out to Camp Hunter Liggutt, we used L-T, Top, Sarge, and
my platoon leader actually ordered us to do the following"

   "Salute me and call me Sir the first thing in the morning, and the
last thing in the evening. The rest of the day wave and call me by my
first name. But when Brass comes down from Ft Ord, it's by the books, or
else."

We had it easy. But in Germany the hard core took over including the
slogan "Fourty Rounds, Sir!" while saluting any officer.


Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:57:48 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>

> T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways.

I offer several data points in chronological order:

- I wrote to Imperium Games asking for employment.

- They refused, saying they had all the full-time staff the needed, but I was 
(eventually) offered part-time work (and was one of the lucky few, evidently, 
who actually got paid).

- Steve Jackson made me an offer I could not refuse.

- Imperium Games went belly up.

- I'm starting my 5th year at SJ Games.

Draw your own conclusions . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:12:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:12:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>

I'm thinking of maybe, possibly, perhaps, landgrabbing Pscias.  It is a
red-zoned world of very low pop and very low tech in the Regina subsector,
in between Roup and Enope.

Does anyone know of another landgrab claim impinging on this?

Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
Landgrab references?

Thanks in advance.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:18:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
References: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >  >
> >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >  >
> >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> >  > lifting capacity.
> >  >
> >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> >
> >  What, no Striker stats?
> 
> Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

All your pallet are belong to us.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:27:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
In-Reply-To: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1b38e$4f3e5ea0$2f7de40c@loki>

And many of us are thankful to

* Steve for bringing you on board
* You for being who you are
* Marc, you and the crew at GDW for being who you were

Okay. I'm a sentimental fool who has enjoyed uncounted thousands of
hours in Traveller.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:49:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88DFB17.24D86%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 10:12 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> I'm thinking of maybe, possibly, perhaps, landgrabbing Pscias.  It is a
> red-zoned world of very low pop and very low tech in the Regina subsector,
> in between Roup and Enope.
> 
> Does anyone know of another landgrab claim impinging on this?
> 
> Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
> Landgrab references?

Landgrab home is at http://www.downport.com/landgrab IIRC

Also available at http://www.spinwardmarches.com

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:32:01 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
fires
>a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>whole different matter.

They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?

I've never heard of TeleShot.  How does it work?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:31:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:31:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
>Traveller. It took about five minutes.

This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:31:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA

[My quotation from Sheridan's The Rivals -- my favorite dialogue from my
mercifully brief stage career -- is omitted.]

>I have no idea whether you're agreeing with me or not. Are you a
politician?

In my hapkido class are three lawyers, including myself.  Two of us were in
class last week when we had a contest between two teams, and our instructor
was not sure which team won.  He asked the other lawyer and me which one
won, but I demurred, saying, "with all due respect, Suhbumnim, if you ask
two lawyers a question like that you'll get four different and conflicting
opinions."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:32:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
>massacres.

What's CSI?  It appears to be worth a look.

--Glenn

P.S.  The **best** show on television is any program on the Weather Channel.
The weather is like any kind of hard work:  I like it so much I can watch it
all day.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:05:28 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88E0CC7.24DB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 11:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>> ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>> penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
> fires
>> a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>> whole different matter.
> 
> They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
> to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?

No, but I'll look into it.
> 
> I've never heard of TeleShot.  How does it work?

Teleshot was developed by AAI corporation using metal forming techniques
from the metal can industry.  In essence, a folded metal 'baloon' is used to
contain the propellant gases.  As the propellant ignites, the combustion
gases violently inflate , but do not pierce the 'baloon'.  The baloon acts
on a polymer pusher that expels the projectiles.  It makes a lot more sense
if you look at a photo.

http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html

There are pictures of fire and unfired teleshot, as well as SCMITR flechette
and other loads.

Note that most of the information here is accurate, just Travellerized.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:23:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:23:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <200202120341.g1C3fqw25034@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16aYCb-00005Z-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> > > Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to >
> Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and >
> missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the >
> same.
> 
> Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
> evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
> the nubility?

True, but it also has truly awesome writing and has had some 
episodes that are quite literally the best things I've seen on TV.  
The musical ep this season ("Once More With Feeling") was a 
perfect send up of the genre and was exceptionally well done.  The 
ep last season where Buffy's mom died ("The Body") was the 
single best drama I've ever seen on TV.  Joss Whedon does 
amazingly good work, and I'm very much looking forward to Firefly.  

At minimum it will be *far* better than the last two Star Treks. 
Voyager truly sucked, and in addition to the vile morality of the 
plague ep, Enterprise's is *really* dull.  The characters are even 
more cardboard than on most new Trek (and that's far from easy).

And yes, I know a hell of a lot about Buffy, so much so that in a 
couple of weeks I'll start work on a supplement for the upcoming 
Buffy RPG :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:51:14 +1300
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <B88DBCD6.24BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEHKHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
> > What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get
> > past the "members only" posting to the digest?
>
> I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in
> majordomo is set right (same as the regular list).
> Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't

You have two lists ?

Most mailing hosts I'm familiar with have a single list, and the
list generates digest posts at the same time as normal posts,
just batching and sending them at pre-configured times and/or
when the digest gets to a certain size.

If you are forwarding all mail to the "main" list to a _seperate_
list that is running  the digest, then it is possible that the
software you are using is not applying the same restrictions on
remote posting to mail being transferred within itself.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:24:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus
> smaller states in western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's
> not actually that variable.

I'm now not quite sure what you mean by tech level.  I'm using the
term to roughly mean the technology of the items that a nation can
produce.  In the case of TL 7, that means space rockets, jet fighters,
plastics, electronic computers, etc.  By this definition, China,
Russia and even India are TL 7.  I use TL 6 and below to refer to
countries (or planets) that lack the ability to produce most or all
such things.

Going by GURPS, no nation on Earth has quite reached TL 8 yet; almost
all of the items GURPS classifies as TL 8 don't even have functional
prototypes in labs yet.  We're getting close though :)


> Well, my point is that the only sensible definition of a world's TL
> in traveller is that it's a direct measure of wealth, and is only
> incidentally related to the actual capabilities of the manufacturing
> base.

I don't think it's useful to define tech level as *meaning* wealth,
there's already a perfectly good term "wealth" to cover that concept.
If you eliminate the phrase "tech level" from meaning technological
capability, what do you propose to replace it with?  I think the
concept behind the phrase is an important one, and of interest to
Travellers: "What do they make here; what can I buy?"

Whatever you like to call it, the relationship between the
technological capability of a planets to manufacture goods, and
wealth, is an interesting one which was the point of my original post.

Strongly correlated, but not perfectly linked.


>  I can't think of any real-world examples of a TL 3 or 4 serious
> manufacturing base;

Not in the last hundred years or so, no.  But *plenty* a few centuries
ago.


> There's a difference between 'europe in the middle ages' (TL 3) and
> modern afghanistan (probably also TL 3); they have _totally_
> different economics.  I argue that the latter is a more accurate
> model of a TL 7 economy in Traveller than the former.

As in, by comparison with the Imperium's general TL F?  If so, I tend
to agree.  Some such planets *will* be strife-ravaged wastelands with
the bulk of trade consisting of illegal goods.

But I don't think it's a given that *most* TL7 planets will be like
Afghanistan.

I think quite a large proportion, probably most, will be planets that
have significant natural resources and quite decent economic
structure, but without the population base to sustain an ultra-tech
infrastructure.  Or frontier areas that have the capability to develop
high-tech production worlds in a few centuries, but aren't there yet.
Or more specilased planets that don't want or need to produce
high-tech goods themselves.

Granted, not many will be *similar* in economic structure to the
United States.  Many will be richer, since their inhabitants will have
use of high-tech tools and gadgets beyond anything that a modern-day
human can utilise (even if they can't manufacture them themselves).

A real-life Earth analogy might be a mining or farming region;
producing little or no TL 7 goods themselves, maybe about TL 5.  But
using TL 7 equipment to produce far more than a pure TL 5 could ever
hope to achieve, and with inhabitants far wealthier on average than
Earth's 18th century.

And of course, some TL 7 planets *will* be poorer than the US;
possibly because they *are* strife-ravaged wastelands, or suffering
economic mismanagment, oppression, and/or natural disaster.  The
planet's Law Level and government type may give some clue toward
man-made disasters.  But nothing substitutes for actually getting
reliable information from other Travellers who've been there.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:28:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:28:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
References: <E16aYCb-00005Z-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <025401c1b3b0$029f60e0$8dcdd63f@customer>

There's going to be a Buffy RPG!! How long till it's out, and from whom will
it be?

John Scarlett
Crawling back into my hole.
----- Original Message -----
From: <sneadj@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] New TV Series?


> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> > > > Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to >
> > Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and >
> > missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the >
> > same.
> >
> > Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
> > evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
> > the nubility?
>
> True, but it also has truly awesome writing and has had some
> episodes that are quite literally the best things I've seen on TV.
> The musical ep this season ("Once More With Feeling") was a
> perfect send up of the genre and was exceptionally well done.  The
> ep last season where Buffy's mom died ("The Body") was the
> single best drama I've ever seen on TV.  Joss Whedon does
> amazingly good work, and I'm very much looking forward to Firefly.
>
> At minimum it will be *far* better than the last two Star Treks.
> Voyager truly sucked, and in addition to the vile morality of the
> plague ep, Enterprise's is *really* dull.  The characters are even
> more cardboard than on most new Trek (and that's far from easy).
>
> And yes, I know a hell of a lot about Buffy, so much so that in a
> couple of weeks I'll start work on a supplement for the upcoming
> Buffy RPG :)
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:30:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:30:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)
References: <20020211.164159.-224321.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <026301c1b3b0$56c2af60$8dcdd63f@customer>

Thanks

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: <knightsky@juno.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)


> Does anyone need a copy of the TNE World Tamer's Handbook?  I ask this
> because there is a dutch auction (not mine) on eBay where someone has 100
> copies of WTH for sale.  The link is
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1702927269&r=0&t=0
> &showTutorial=0&ed=1013825429&indexURL=0&rd=1.  I somewhat doubt that
> there will be 100 people bidding on this item, so anyone who needs a copy
> can proably get it for the minimum bid of $9.95, plus $4.50 P&H.  Hope
> this is of help to anyone who has been looking for a copy of this
> particulat supplement.
>
>
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:35:25 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower
> or higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?

Of course it is.  The GM just says "Despite its TL of 6, this world
has a per-capita GWP of 3000 CrImp/year".  ;^>

I don't think this is at all unreasonable.  A world may have a very
strong economy without producing high-tech goods.  Particularly if
what they do produce is in very high demand elsewhere (e.g. rare
elements).  Conversely, a world may be poor despite the ability to
produce high-tech goods for any number of reasons.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:41:34 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C68E34E.3000409@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:01 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> US Army slang, not USMC.  :->
>>
>> I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
>> small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address 
>> his
>> lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part 
>> humor
>> part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
>> part serious>
>> --Laning
>
>
> For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, 
> and others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
> recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
> Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to 
> hear it.
>
>
any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat 
effectivness' ?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:39:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:39:41 -0600
Subject: [TML] Revenge of the TE
Message-ID: <029101c1b3b1$95451380$8dcdd63f@customer>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

As an IRS worker I resemble that remark. >:{|



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:46:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:46:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C68E467.E379542B@premier.net>



"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> >From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
> >
> >IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
> in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
> to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
> >Traveller. It took about five minutes.
> 
> This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
> brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.

So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
method of neutralization.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:03:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:03:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>

At 08:35 PM 2/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>> Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower
>> or higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?
>
>Of course it is.  The GM just says "Despite its TL of 6, this world
>has a per-capita GWP of 3000 CrImp/year".  ;^>
>
>I don't think this is at all unreasonable.  A world may have a very
>strong economy without producing high-tech goods.  Particularly if
>what they do produce is in very high demand elsewhere (e.g. rare
>elements).  Conversely, a world may be poor despite the ability to
>produce high-tech goods for any number of reasons.

There was a section in WORLD TAMER'S HANDBOOK that talked about
infrastructure and all that - along with POCKET EMPIRES.  I would suggest
that the US is very well developed infrastructure wise, and the rest of the
world is less so



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:13:56 +1300
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Justin Bunnell wrote :
>
> 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?

Yes. You can get your tit shot off.

The problem is with your assumption here, and in the rest of your
comments about other locations, is that the hit impacts the body
square on.

The majority of impacts do not, and will graze, bounce, and
otherwise avoid vital organs due to this. Deflections off the rib
cage and other bones are common, though these can serve to make
the wound worse than it would have been rather than better.

For example a non-vital head wound can remove an ear, your nose,
or even an eye, without seriously affecting your ability to
continue fighting (assuming you're not one  of those who
immediately goes into hysterics after being wounded)

Arm hits can remove fingers in a simlar manner.

These wounds _may_ result in death after the combat due to
infection, blood loss or shock, but do not neccesasaily remove
one from combat.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:13:57 +1300
Subject: [TML] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Laning wrote :
> > --Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML
> > (Proud to have made sergeant (E-5) in **only** five
> > years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were two
> > years when not one single person in my entire MOS
> > made corporal.  In retrospect,  if I'd done a stint
> > on the drill field I might have moved faster.  It
> > probably would have made a better Marine of me, too.)

My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
years ??
They must have a terrible retention rate.

No-one would take such a young sergeant seriously over here.

> Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.

Took me four to reach LAC, and that isn't even a rank, just a
"classification"

We weren't _allowed_ to be given that classification until after
we'd completed our senior technical course (13 months) , and
_that_ couldn't happen until we'd spent at least a year on the
job, and that couldn't happen until after junior technical course
(six months), which couldn't happen until after Basic Engineering
(four months), which couldn't happen until after recruit course
(equivalent of boot camp)(nine months).

Minimum length of service to become a sergeants in our trade was
about 10 years, and that would be unusual, as a position had to
open up for you to be promoted to fill it. Usually between 12 and
15 years.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:57:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:57:24 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGECDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Ugh. I wrote :-
> I have never seen an acute tension pneumothorax (injury ->
> death within 5 minutes).

This is ambiguous.
I have not seen or heard of a tension pneumothorax developing
fast enough that the time from precipitation, regardless of
mechanism, to cardiac arrest was less than about thirty minutes.

It takes time to trap a lethal amount of air.

Adding gas bubbles directly into the bloodstream, on the other hand,
can cause cardiac standstill within thirty seconds. But that's
another set of horror stories.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:55:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b88df09e0517@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3C69AB8F.25269.346CF4@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 20:27, David P. Summers wrote:

> It is generally acknowledged in GURPS (at least amongst those that I 
> interact with...) the that bleeding rules are not totally realistic 
> but that, in fact, it is better that way.  Most people aren't 
> interested in having their characters bleed to death.  There have 
> been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger 
> penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.

I've got a really simple one that never gets used when we do play GURPS (nor 
does the official one, for that matter). If you get hit in the vitals or neck 
by anything that makes holes roll HT. If you fail lose 1 hit point per two 
turns until dead or healed. Simple and more realistic than most bleeding rules.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:45:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:45:11 PST
Subject: [TML] Reaction by-products
In-Reply-To: <20020124150242.32178.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20211.224511.2x3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I need the help of some of you experts.
>
> What is the by-product of a Fusion reaction.  As I
> understand it, duterium (or something similar) is the
> fuel, but what is the "waste" and more importantly, is
> it radioactive at all?

Depends on the fusion reaction being used.

The best (and hardest to manage) reaction is:

4 H1 -> 1 He4

(4 normal hydrogen fused to make one Helium atom)

But there are lots of others. Most of which have leftover neutrons
(which can induce radioactivity in materiald they get absorbed by) or
produce Tritium (H3) or Helium 3 (He3). Tritium is radioactive. I don't
recall if He3 is. 

There are also reactions involving various lithium and boron isotopes,
but they aren't apt to be used much simply because the elements in
question are prety rare and the isotopes used are even rarer.

> I would like the answer for both a reactor and for a
> reaction type drive (like HEPlaR).

Most fusion reactors *will* emit *lots* of netrons. Which *will* make
the nearby portions of the reactor radioactive. 

Really advanced ones won't. But they'll be pretty high TL.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:45:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEGECDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote (of chest wounds) :-

> Unless you're unfortunate enough to get a tension pneumothorax
> - then you die pretty quick.

Not really ; the determinants are the rapidity of the air leak,
the rise in intrathoracic pressure [has a one-way valve been established?]
and the compliance of the chest contents.
There's actually a fair amount of give in the
mediastinum and lungs before things get problematic.

I have never seen an acute tension pneumothorax (injury ->
death within 5 minutes). I have stuck in my fair share (a few hundred) chest
drains and done about a dozen needle decompressions over my last five years
'at the office' [Intensive Care + theatre].

David Summers wrote :-
> Most people aren't interested in having their characters bleed to death.
> There have been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger
> penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.

Fair enough.
Using real-world trauma data though, there doesn't appear to be significant
deterioration in performance until decompensated shock sets in, unless
the damage is massive (promptly dead or dying) or psychologically-based
incapacitation occurs.

The time until this occurs would appear to correlate best with injury
severity.

Hmm...
i. When a wound is sustained, make a Will roll.
On a failure, the character is demoralised.
On a spectacular failure the character is stunned.
Recheck next turn to see if they can act.

ii. Make a HT roll every turn.
On a spectacular failure, the character loses consciousness for 1d minutes.
Make HT rolls every minute after this to see if they wake up.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:04:10 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020211.215326.-70725.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C69AD7A.20769.3BED96@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 21:53, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> When stationed at Ft Ord, Ca. USA everything was "by the book", but when
> we transferred out to Camp Hunter Liggutt, we used L-T, Top, Sarge, and
> my platoon leader actually ordered us to do the following"
> 
>    "Salute me and call me Sir the first thing in the morning, and the
> last thing in the evening. The rest of the day wave and call me by my
> first name. But when Brass comes down from Ft Ord, it's by the books, or
> else."

That sounds very similar to standard policy on most bases and in most units in 
the NZ Army. Salute and greet officers when you first see them in the day, and 
when you last expect to see them that day. In between times don't salute or 
brace to attention, but still call them "Sir", or "Mister Hercock" if they're a 
Lieutenant and cool with it - some aren't as while technically correct it's 
often used as a bit of an insult. As you say this does not apply during 
official visits from brass.

Much the same went for NCOs - greet them formally first thing in the morning 
and last thing at night. In between call them "Ross" or "Barnsey", but when 
it's formal, which includes when officers are 'officially' present (rather than 
just passing through, having a smoke out the back with you, etc.) it's 
"Corporal" or "Corporal Barnes". This particular Corporal would murder anyone 
who called him "Barnes", BTW. With sergeants and up these rules only applied to 
other NCOs, not privates (and if they were a CSM, etc. not really to Lance 
Corporals or Corporals, no matter what said CSM might say).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:11:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:11:45 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C69AF41.22903.42DCCB@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 23:13, Frank Pitt wrote:

> My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
> years ??
> They must have a terrible retention rate.
> 
> No-one would take such a young sergeant seriously over here.

And if they were made to they'd seriously resent it.
 
> > Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.
> 
> Took me four to reach LAC, and that isn't even a rank, just a
> "classification"

Remember I was in the TF, which has a terrible retention rate (about a three 
year turn over, IIRC).
 
> We weren't _allowed_ to be given that classification until after
> we'd completed our senior technical course (13 months) , and
> _that_ couldn't happen until we'd spent at least a year on the
> job, and that couldn't happen until after junior technical course
> (six months), which couldn't happen until after Basic Engineering
> (four months), which couldn't happen until after recruit course
> (equivalent of boot camp)(nine months).

Well, I never got my rank made permanent because for that you have to have 
passed the JNCO's course, and budget considerations menat that every time I was 
nominated for one it was cancelled or defered. Thus I was a temporary Lance 
Corporal for three years (the only real difference is that permanent rank pays 
a little better). :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:14:11 +1300
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C69AFD3.19797.4518A1@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 23:13, Frank Pitt wrote:

> For example a non-vital head wound can remove an ear, your nose,
> or even an eye, without seriously affecting your ability to
> continue fighting (assuming you're not one  of those who
> immediately goes into hysterics after being wounded)

Also pistol bullets that hit the skull at an oblique angle (like towrds the 
side of the head for a frontal shot) are sometimes deflected without doing much 
immediate damage. Having your opponent drop from concussion sometime later is 
of little use _right now_.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:18:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:18:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <pduh6u8b5f0rp72bl631hot5vkcf43puup@4ax.com>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:46:48 -0800 (PST), "Frank Pitt"
<frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>Tod Glenn wrote :
>> jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
>> > What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get
>> > past the "members only" posting to the digest?

>> I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in
>> majordomo is set right (same as the regular list).
>> Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't

>You have two lists ?

>Most mailing hosts I'm familiar with have a single list, and the
>list generates digest posts at the same time as normal posts,
>just batching and sending them at pre-configured times and/or
>when the digest gets to a certain size.

>If you are forwarding all mail to the "main" list to a _seperate_
>list that is running  the digest, then it is possible that the
>software you are using is not applying the same restrictions on
>remote posting to mail being transferred within itself.

No, I think I have a possible reason that this is happening; I checked the
Majordomo FAQ.  Listmom, contact me privately via email or meet me in
#traveller on Undernet any evening, and we can try to thrash this out.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:35:29 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BTML=5D_Re:_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
>
> Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.

I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Nothing quite beats taking turns on a bicycle drunk, with the bikes
mere inches from the pavement.  Those were the days...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 12:02:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:02:31 +0100
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
Message-ID: <F599AnfWf17rSWEr9rA00003261@hotmail.com>




>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>on 2/11/02 5:47 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
>
>>What's with the spam? Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
>>only" posting to the digest?
>>--
>>Jeff Zeitlin
>>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>>
>
>I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in majordomo is set right (same 
>as the regular list).  Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I 
>won't have any hair left.
>
>Tod

Have you tried USENET, the mayordomo mailing list or similar?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:01:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] Revenge of the TE
References: <029101c1b3b1$95451380$8dcdd63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000301c1b3c2$46adb0e0$0a69893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
> code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

Also, the IRS sings better.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C68FC7D.DD3CEEAD@mindspring.com>

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

http://www.spinwardmarches.com/

The first link gets you to a list of who grabbed what. The second takes you to
the landgrabbers landgrab. The only reference I remember about Pscias is in
"The Traveller Adventure" I believe they're one of the few worlds that don't
dislike Psionics in the 3I.

Laning wrote:Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or
other

> Landgrab references?
>
>

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:58:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C691F8A.C80277E9@sitraka.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> *ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
> interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
> massacres.

The Tolkein tie-in is rather wierd though. I remember Ents being bigger,
but man, those actors have to be Ents 'cause they are wooooood-en.

<groans>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:22:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:22:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Four
Message-ID: <000601c1b3cc$54e3cc80$11111111@horace>

In Russian:

Chetarye (che-ta-rye) = Four

Cheers.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:54:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Reaction by-products
Message-ID: <F25K8YkJeaXfTK105ci00003930@hotmail.com>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>Tritium is radioactive. I don't
>recall if He3 is.

Helium-3 is a stable but very rare isotope.  It's a bit OT, but there's an 
interesting article from a couple of years back on its viability as a fusion 
fuel and lunar "cash crop" at

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html

According to the article, the neutron flux of the He3-He3 reaction would be 
about two orders of magnitude lower than D-T (the energy yield is pretty 
good too, IIRC).

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:10:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary
 stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com> <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>

As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states,
but is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got
me though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike
and was told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. I had
really expected the charge to be dismissed. Just another lesson in the basic
unfairness of life.

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
> >
> > Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> > know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> > convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> > and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> > me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.
>
> I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
> make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
> will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
> certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
> more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
> more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.
>
> Nothing quite beats taking turns on a bicycle drunk, with the bikes
> mere inches from the pavement.  Those were the days...
>
> --
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
>   - object or person outside the car 30%
>   - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
>   - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
>   - cellular phones 1.5%
>      --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:39:05 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <14d.8c64e63.299a9119@aol.com>

Perry writes:

>>I hold the entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost
>>entirely wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in 
the
>> previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch
>>seminar at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled
>>faithful and rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up 
before
>>them until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...
>
>What was specifically said there?

 Marc was happily explaining the whole Pocket Empires concept when something 
he said caught me wrong. I asked if we would retain the races and locations 
from previous incarnations in this setting, so that we might, for instance, 
find the Geonee, or the Vegans in their historical locations. His answer?

 "No. That would give older players too much advantage over new players."

 To be fair, the Geonee are a DGP thing, and as such are/were a delicate 
topic, but the attitude expressed disturbed a few of us old grognards (I 
recall the grim look on several HIWG member's faces after that seminar) and 
the reality became clearly manifest as the supplements appeared: this was not 
the same universe, or if it was then all that had come before was worthless.

 GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:44:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:44:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
Message-ID: <3C693841.BBFFC4FC@mail.cswnet.com>

>>> Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>>> price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>>  
>> What, no Striker stats?
>
>Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

Keyboard kill [with secondary detonations].

Yes, it hurts. Alot.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:44:48 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88E786F.24EDF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 11:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>> ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>> penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
> fires
>> a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>> whole different matter.
> 
> They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
> to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?
> 

Glenn,

Here's a first pass at MT stats.  It's comma delimited for import into your
favorite spreadsheet:

Ammo Notes,Rds,Pen/Aten,Dmg,Max
Range,Autofire,Danger,Signature,Recoil,Difficulty As
Pellets,10,1/1,4,Medium,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
Tranq,10,1/-,1,Medium,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
gas,10,-,1,Medium,3,-,Hi,Medium,Rifle
MSIP,10,2/1,4,Long,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
Flechette,10,2/3,2,Long,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
SCMITR,10,2/3,4,Long,,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
HE,10,3/-,4,V Long,-,4,Hi,Medium,Rifle
HEAP,10,11/-,5,V Long,,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
TeleShot,10,1/1,4,Medium,,1.5,Low,Medium,Rifle


MSIP is Mass Stabilized Improved Projectile.  I have no idea what SCMITR
stands for, but this is the AAI flying razorblade flechette.  For more info,
check out "The Worlds Fighting Shotguns" by Thomas Swearengen. There are
picts of the ammo and weapons on my website at

http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons see ammo and shotguns

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:57:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Abraham Delnore)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
In-Reply-To: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>


When I was in college I had to write a campus newspaper article on
bicycling laws because the campus cops were starting to ticket--actually
they were starting to issue warnings, and I don't recall anyone receiving
a citation, but the threat was there.  Bottom line for Virginia and
the rest of the U.S. from talking to attorneys and police officers:  if
you're sitting on the seat and pedaling, you're a motor vehicle for
absolutely all purposes.  Obey all signs and signals, including stop and
one-way--this was the big problem on our campus; cyclists would cut up a
wide one-way street that had been so designated for traffic-quieting .
Signal all turns.  Drive on the right.  Control your speed.  Use the road,
not the sidewalk.

Of course these laws are almost never enforced, or I should say that
police officers almost never treat bicycles according to their proper legal
status.  Our campus police were saying they had "had complaints" and
"frequently noticed unsafe cycling practices."  Whatever you say, officer!

I wonder if there is a class of space vehicle in Traveller universes that
is analogous to the bicycle:  kids get around on them, they aren't
really regulated, etc.  Maybe some kind of eva suit in belter
communities?  "You never forget; it's just like piloting a thrust pack!"

--Abe Delnore

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| V. A. Delnore          	      vad9m@virginia.edu            |
| Graduate Student       	      delnore@clipper.ens.fr        |
| University of Virginia              48, bd. Jourdan               |
| Ecole Normale Superieure            75014 Paris France            |
| Mica mica parva stella miror quaenam sis tam bella  (Anon. lyric) |
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:02:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
Message-ID: <000001c1b3de$bdb74220$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." Any ideas, anyone?

MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of physics.

Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force.

The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature,

Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft, said: "we have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of and so far nothing works.

"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation of California.

Pioneer 10 was launched by NASA on March 2, 1972, and with Pioneer 11, it's twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the two probes are being effected by the gravitational pull of unknown planets beyond the solar system. Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar system. Data from these probes suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the Pioneers.
Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. "It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions of years,  which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Andrew Long   Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae   Or 
       P.O. Box 29030   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com   Or 
       Abu Dhabi    AndyLong@BigPond.com   
       United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254   Mobile  
           +971 (2) 671 0434   Home/Fax  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:01:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:01:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <3C68E34E.3000409@gmx.net>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212075811.009eb330@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 PM 2/12/02 +1100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and 
>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
>Any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat 
>effectivness' ?

Not really.  Newly minted butterbars tend to be a bit more aware of their 
exalted status as officers and gentlemen, but most of the relax.  One of 
the most together officers I ever knew would go ballistic if you called him 
LT, while my platoon leader had no trouble with it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:57:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212075425.00a04ec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:32 PM 2/11/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
> >interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
> >massacres.
>
>What's CSI?  It appears to be worth a look.

_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab, 
and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice 
thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss 
the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.

CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:18:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>
References: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212081815.009efbe0@mindspring.com>

At 12:18 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > Do not taunt Chinese forklift.
>
>All your pallet are belong to us.

Somebody set us up the crate!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:27:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
Message-ID: <F150ad2VqKwRPQIWDO300003d6d@hotmail.com>

>From: "Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
>
>This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily paper 
>in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." Any ideas, 
>anyone?
>
>MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
>Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

I remember reading the original BBC story about this last spring.  AFAIK, 
they still don't know the cause of this anomaly.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:17:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212081730.009eca00@mindspring.com>

At 12:46 AM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

And I have another new sig file


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:22:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:22:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3C68E467.E379542B@premier.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212082130.009fd880@mindspring.com>

At 03:46 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
>So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>method of neutralization.

I shall notify the Egg Board.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:05:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:05:14 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_?=
 Miltary stories
In-Reply-To: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
References: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
 <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>
 <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212080221.009f19e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:35 AM 2/12/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
>make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
>will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
>certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
>more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
>more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Sorry, but traffic laws apply to all vehicles using the road.  We've had a 
bike messenger convicted of vehicular manslaughter here in San Francisco 
(he blasted around a corner without looking, and hit a man in the 
crosswalk.  Guy died of head injuries.)

Having been a professional driver, let me assure you that the danger isn't 
what you can do, but the danger you pose to the other vehicles as they try 
to avoid you.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:06:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:06:33 -0800
Subject: [TML]
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_?= address
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212080543.009ec550@mindspring.com>

At 11:13 PM 2/12/02 +1300, you wrote:
>My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
>years ??
>They must have a terrible retention rate.

It also might be that the USMC is a bit larger than the NZ forces.

Most US servicepeople do their four years and get out.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:41:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b3de$bdb74220$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020212174136.92101.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>

Aetheric turbulence.

--- Andrew Long <andrewglong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily
> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph."
> Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics
> 
> A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a
> force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of
> physics.
> 
> Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of
> Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back
> to the sun by an unknown force.
> 
> The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels
> deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility
> that the probe has revealed a new force of nature,
> 
> Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft,
> said: "we have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of
> and so far nothing works.
> 
> "If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and
> spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation
> of California.
> 
> Pioneer 10 was launched by NASA on March 2, 1972, and with Pioneer
> 11, it's twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
> Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
> distant planet in our solar system.
> 
> Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket
> motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power
> plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team
> says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all
> the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar
> radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.
> 
> The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the
> two probes are being effected by the gravitational pull of unknown
> planets beyond the solar system. Assertions by some scientists that
> the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been
> discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting
> Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar
> system. Data from these probes suggests the force is of the same
> strength as that found for the Pioneers.
> Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even
> such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. "It
> might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions
> of years,  which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also
> raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of
> gravity."
> 
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Andrew Long   Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae   Or 
>        P.O. Box 29030   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com   Or 
>        Abu Dhabi    AndyLong@BigPond.com   
>        United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254   Mobile  
>            +971 (2) 671 0434   Home/Fax  
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:37:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:37:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: Buffy the best?
Message-ID: <RELAY2B526tr5XsCj1d00002159@relay2.softcomca.com>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> writes:

> On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> > <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> > won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~
>
> What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None. 

ROTFLMAOASTC!!!  Ohh, jeez!  Stop it Greg.  You're killing me!

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:55:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:55:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus
> > smaller states in western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's
> > not actually that variable.
> 
> I'm now not quite sure what you mean by tech level.

Traveller isn't sure either.  I'm attempting to come up with a definition which
corresponds to real-world examples of primitive areas, which suggests that 'low
tech == poor'

> I don't think it's useful to define tech level as *meaning* wealth,
> there's already a perfectly good term "wealth" to cover that concept.
> If you eliminate the phrase "tech level" from meaning technological
> capability, what do you propose to replace it with?

The simple truth is, you'll be able to buy (very limited) GTL 10-12 goods on TL
7 worlds, unless they're totally disconnected from interstellar commerce, and
such worlds will use some GTL 10-12 goods; as an example, GTL 10 fusion
reactors are $10(at TL 10; $3 CrI)/kW, and with exchange rates are still only
around $30/kW (note that after exchange rates, the GWP of a TL 7 world is
$15,000/person), resulting in a cost of power on the order of $0.005/kWh,
assuming maintenance costs of 100%/year.  Ask any energy producer if they'd buy
that...


>  I think the
> concept behind the phrase is an important one, and of interest to
> Travellers: "What do they make here; what can I buy?"

In many cases the answer to the first one is 'pretty much nothing', and the
answer to the second one is 'whatever you can afford'.

> As in, by comparison with the Imperium's general TL F?  If so, I tend
> to agree.  Some such planets *will* be strife-ravaged wastelands with
> the bulk of trade consisting of illegal goods.
> 
> But I don't think it's a given that *most* TL7 planets will be like
> Afghanistan.

Many of them won't be wartorn, but the only reason for a world to be at TL 7 is
that it can't afford better.  Any wealthy world _will_ invest in higher-tech
toys, and will have their TL rise rapidly until it matches their wealth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 18:22:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:22:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOCEMFCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Keyboard Kill!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: February 11, 2002 10:18 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150




GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >  >
> >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >  >
> >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> >  > lifting capacity.
> >  >
> >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> >
> >  What, no Striker stats?
> 
> Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

All your pallet are belong to us.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:04:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:04:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020212190427.37846.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


--- Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:
> >I used interlock for a little while in the early
> 90's (about the >same time a friend ran Call of
> Traveller) then switched to TNE when >it came out
> because it was pretty close. 
> 
> IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was
> having a chat with a friend in the pub the other
> night about it. We were wondering how easy it would
> be to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into Traveller.
> It took about five minutes.
> 
> We thought that the great old ones were maaybe the
> other side of the ancients war to the Grandfather
> and that they lost and were shut into a pocket
> universe. The entrance to this portal was on some
> world off towards the rim of anything important and
> under the largest ocean on the planets' surface
> (hmm, wonder where that is..?)
> 
> Any thoughts anyone.
> 
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 
> "Wagging this appendage is
> the only creative outlet I have"
> 
> Salem
> 
> 
> 
> Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
> Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
> Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:06:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:06:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <20020212190636.69663.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

The best show on TV has got to be "Farscape" (OK so it
isn't "on" TV right now).  Great Traveller gleanings
for many types of campaigns.  Great writing and
character development.

A strong second would be "Who's Line Is It Anyway?" 
If it were on the computer, there would be several
keyboard kills per show.  As I often tell my wife, it
just isn't right for an individual to have as much
talent as Wayne Brady has.

ObTrav:  What would happen if a group of characters
got "randomly" selected for the next Survivor show. 
"Survivor MMCXXVI: Red Zone".

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:20:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEJMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>method of neutralization.

Agreed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:24:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:24:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] name resource
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212142417.00a6c5a0@mail.charter.net>

http://www.behindthename.com/

For when you are looking for interesting character names.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:20:24 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html
>

Cool -- thanks.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:37:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F5mWrPcvOZHJFdhd3MI0000419a@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose
>[of an STD] is something entirely different!

My brother (US Navy) told me of one of his enlisted
cruises, before he got an appointment to the academy.
As the crew was heading out for liberty at a foreign port,
the medical officer was seen standing by the gangway,
poking a large hypodermic needle repeatedly into a block
of wood.  "Have fun, boys...I'll have this nice and dull
for you when you get back."

>Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
>but give us the dough.

College towns usually feel the same way about their student
populations.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:38:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
Message-ID: <20020212193821.80339.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever tried to create a version of the word
generation charts using English?  I was just wondering
how often they will result in real words and how often
it will be jibberish.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:30:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:30:42 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJNCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Here's a first pass at MT stats.  It's comma delimited for import into your
>favorite spreadsheet:

Double thanks, Tod!  You just save the Regina Subsector Special Police
Quartermaster a lot of work!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:30:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:30:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEJNCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
>and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
>thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss
>the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
>
>CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.

Thanks, Doug.  This looks like a must-watch from someone running a
police-oriented campaign.  Of course, I'm never home on Thursday at 2100, so
I'll finally have to figure out how to program the VCR.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:14:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
In-Reply-To: <20020212193821.80339.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1b401$f4eb1aa0$6401a8c0@goca>

I did this once in GW BASIC.  I used the letter frequency charts for the
English language.  I did mainly get jibberish, but sometimes it spat out
some pretty large words that were actually words.  :)

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:38
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English

Has anyone ever tried to create a version of the word
generation charts using English?  I was just wondering
how often they will result in real words and how often
it will be jibberish.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:37:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Paging Mark C.
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB4@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You get my e-mail re:  address & shirts?
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:01:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ak2I-0003Vy-00@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>

"John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> There's going to be a Buffy RPG!! How long till it's out, and from
> whom will it be?

Summer, Eden publications (the extremely skilled, polite, and 
generally wondrous folk who put out Conspiracy X, Witchcraft, and 
All Flesh Must Be Eaten).  The Buffy game will use a modified 
version of the system in Witchcraft.  I (unsurprisingly) will be writing 
the magic book (making something like the 10th RPG magic 
system I've either written [or as in this case] written an expansion 
book for.

Everything I've seen so far looks *excellent*!

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:43:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There was a section in WORLD TAMER'S HANDBOOK that talked about
> infrastructure and all that - along with POCKET EMPIRES.  I would
> suggest that the US is very well developed infrastructure wise, and
> the rest of the world is less so

I would agree.  The per-capita GDP of the US is more than 5 times the
world average, or 7 times the average for the *rest* of the world.

It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:50:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:50:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212142417.00a6c5a0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212124947.009f76e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:24 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>http://www.behindthename.com/
>
>For when you are looking for interesting character names.

DOUGLAS (m) "dark river" or "blood river" from Gaelic dubh "dark" and glais 
"water, river". Douglas was originally a river name, the site of a 
particularly bloody battle, which then became a Scottish surname. The 
surname belonged to a powerful line of Scottish earls.

Very interesting site!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net> <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C69843D.9ED406C@sitraka.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
> infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
> one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
> planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
> of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.

In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
infrastructure.

For example, communication equipment and medical equipment are both 
high density, low volume, high impact trade goods that I'd imagine
to be relatively high-rech regardless of the local TL.

For ex, most of Africa has cellular phone infrastructure that's identical
to what you find in Europe or the US. Places like Pakistan have some
medical equipment that's fresh of the line from the US or Europe.
Apparently bin Laden bought a pair of dialysis machines for some hospital
in Pakistan, one being for his own personal use. A similar situation would
hold on many Imperial worlds - it only takes one moderately rich local to
equip at least one hospital ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's
simply enlightened self interest at the very least...

Medico: Rather genenerous of the Baron to donate all that 
        organ transplant equipment, don't you think?
Politico: Uh, do you know how many organ transplants the Baron has had?
Medico: No...
Politico: Thirty-four. He's apparently on his 15th liver.
Medico: Oh...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:12:30 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> The simple truth is, you'll be able to buy (very limited) GTL 10-12
> goods on TL 7 worlds, unless they're totally disconnected from
> interstellar commerce, and such worlds will use some GTL 10-12
> goods;

I agree.  It's the 'very limited' that prevents me from calling such a
world GTL 10-12.  Given Far Trader volumes, the only goods that will
be in abundance will be ones that the locals produce themselves.
Hence the designation of TL as indicating local production is useful,
since it shows you what level of technology you are likely to
encounter most frequently.


> resulting in a cost of power on the order of $0.005/kWh, assuming
> maintenance costs of 100%/year.  Ask any energy producer if they'd
> buy that...

Sure they would -- and as a consequence, they'd have the capacity to
be more productive than a pure TL 7 world like modern-day Earth.


> Many of them won't be wartorn, but the only reason for a world to be
> at TL 7 is that it can't afford better.  Any wealthy world _will_
> invest in higher-tech toys, and will have their TL rise rapidly
> until it matches their wealth.

I'm not arguing that TL 7 Traveller worlds are *wealthy*; compared
with the industrial TL 12 monsters that drive the Imperial economy
they're probably considered as dirt-poor as we consider Ethiopia to
be.  But then, so would modern-day Earth.

Also, look at the population distributions.  Is it reasonable to
expect most planets with less than a million people to support a
native infrastructure capable of producing antigrav, nuclear dampers,
meson screens, jump-6 drives and/or near-sentient robots even if they
*are* very rich?

I think most of them must be doing pretty well to support TL 7
production.  If they were poor from *our* perspective, I think they'd
be stuck at TL 5 or less.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:10:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:10:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6984B6.8070005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

alan spik wrote:
> Whilst riding my bicycle back to the ship one fine saturday afternoon in
> Alameda's pubs, I happened to go down a hill and began passing some vehicular
> traffic which was being followed by a police cruiser. Moments after passing said
> cruiser the siren goes off, tires squeal and I jump off the road to avoid what I
> think is a car chase. Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and
> asks me if I know how fast I was going? Eventually I wound up in court and was
> convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture and a fine
> for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give me a sobriety test as I
> wouldn't have passed.

A friend of mine got one for doing 45 in a 25 mph zone once. Pretty 
expensive ticket, as it put points on his license.

Another friend (living in SF at the time, coincidentally) was trucking 
on down a steep hill when some idiot popped open their car door in front 
of him. Fortunately for him, it was a door with a frameless window, 
'cause he took the window with him rather violently. Rather nasty endo. 
(and the driver got a ticket for the incident..failure to yield or 
obstructing traffic, something like that)

A bike is treated the same as a motor vehicle in most places, though 
it's really hard, usually, to get a ticket, the locals have indeed 
busted people for DUI's in the past.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:26:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: "Mysterious force in space"
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16akQU-0007RF-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Subject: 
> 
> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily 
> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph."
> Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

<snip much coolness>

I've heard about this before, mentioned wrt the Galileo and Ulysses 
probes.  Having it confirmed for the Pioneer craft is cool.  I wonder 
if this force [if it exists] is related to the "dark energy" so popular in 
current theory (although that is supposed to be a repulsive force).  
Much oddness, and from oddness can spring all manner of new 
and amazing tech.

I know we have a few physics and astronomy types here, any 
comments from folk who know more than I?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:34:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> I agree.  It's the 'very limited' that prevents me from calling such a
> world GTL 10-12.  Given Far Trader volumes, the only goods that will
> be in abundance will be ones that the locals produce themselves.

Um...while Hi-pop worlds have low trade volumes relative to their GWPs, lower
population worlds don't always (depending on port code).  A port-C pop-7 TL-7
world (UWTN 4, WTN 4, pop 30M, GWP 45B or so) is likely to have total trade
equivalent to about BTN 9 or 9.5, accounting for around 10% of GWP.  Lower
population worlds will have even more.  Any areas near a port (where PCs are
most often found) will have disproportionately high penetration of offworld
goods in any case.

> Also, look at the population distributions.  Is it reasonable to
> expect most planets with less than a million people to support a
> native infrastructure capable of producing antigrav, nuclear dampers,
> meson screens, jump-6 drives and/or near-sentient robots even if they
> *are* very rich?

No, but that's an argument against TL having anything to do with production
capabilities, and in favor of my definition (which basically assumes that
worlds have the infrastructure they can pay for, and thus there's a nearly
direct corrolation between TL and wealth).  If Tenalphi (1828 spinware marches)
can maintain TL 14 with a population of 60, there's no way TL has anything to
do with manufacturing capability, seeing as Tenalphi doesn't have any.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:40:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>
References: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>
Message-ID: <p04330107b88f3b32833b@[198.123.22.181]>

At 10:57 AM -0500 2/12/02, Victor Abraham Delnore wrote:
>Of course these laws are almost never enforced, or I should say that
>police officers almost never treat bicycles according to their proper legal
>status.  Our campus police were saying they had "had complaints" and
>"frequently noticed unsafe cycling practices."  Whatever you say, officer!

The problem is that the laws, and much of the layout of the roads, 
don't take bikes into account.  So this help breed the view that they 
don't apply to them.  (Similarly, cars will often start "short 
cutting" laws that just don't make sense to them).

This cuts a number of ways, one that works against bikes is that cars 
will sometimes violate their right of way.  I'm never sure a car will 
stop for me even if he has a stop sign and I don't.  (Since I'm "only 
a bike" the laws that require him to yield must not apply...).

Myself, I the laws sometimes so ignore the possibilities of bikes, 
that I mostly concentrate on always yeilding right of way.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (scspieker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:46:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] 25mm Traveller Figures
References: <E16akQU-0007RF-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <007801c1b40e$c0e59de0$4a0000c0@royalplastics.com>

Hi all,
    Anyone happen to be interested in 40 of the '83-'84 era grenadier 25mm
figures?  That's right, I have 40 of these babies up for grabs.

    They are all of the power armored marines with rifles and SMG like
weapons.

If you are interested, please contact me off-list at:
scspieker@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Scott


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:53:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:53:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
Message-ID: <20020212.135345.-95489.1.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:07 -0500 (EST) Victor Abraham Delnore
<vad9m@unix.mail.virginia.edu> writes:
> Obey all signs and signals, including stop and one-way--this
> was the big problem on our campus; cyclists would cut up a
> wide one-way street that had been so designated for traffic-
>quieting 
> .
> Signal all turns.  Drive on the right.  Control your speed.  Use the 
> road, not the sidewalk.

This reminds me of a funny bike accident I had in the US Army.

I was quietly riding my 10 speed back from the motorpool, and caught up
with a platoon double timing down the road. I followed for a few minutes
then decided to pass. I was halfway up along side them when suddenly the
butterball El-Tee called a column left.

I mowed down the LT, and scattered the troops.

The LT was mad, but I put him in his place "respectfully"  by letting him
know he was suppose to send out road guards. He muttered a lame excuss
that he could hear if a car was coming. I quietly road off on my merry
way thinking of a Bible verse:

	Ps 18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I
leaped over a wall.

I had a great afternoon.

Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:54:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:54:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3C69843D.9ED406C@sitraka.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
 <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212164407.00a85618@urbin.net>

This stuff was discussed in great detail back on the TNE Pocket Empire list

When you are rebuilding from a small, but advanced tech base, there are 
easier shortcuts to take.

RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding areas of 
what used to be East German.
Residential buildings had 1' TV satellites attached by each apartment window.
These buildings were built no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put 
up these dishes and make use of the orbital infrastructure than to run 
cable to each and every building/apartment.

Same with Cell phones.

At 04:08 PM 2/12/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Timothy Little wrote:
> >
> > It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
> > infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
> > one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
> > planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
> > of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.
>
>In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
>has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
>infrastructure.
>
>For example, communication equipment and medical equipment are both
>high density, low volume, high impact trade goods that I'd imagine
>to be relatively high-rech regardless of the local TL.
>
>For ex, most of Africa has cellular phone infrastructure that's identical
>to what you find in Europe or the US. Places like Pakistan have some
>medical equipment that's fresh of the line from the US or Europe.
>Apparently bin Laden bought a pair of dialysis machines for some hospital
>in Pakistan, one being for his own personal use. A similar situation would
>hold on many Imperial worlds - it only takes one moderately rich local to
>equip at least one hospital ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's
>simply enlightened self interest at the very least...
>
>Medico: Rather genenerous of the Baron to donate all that
>         organ transplant equipment, don't you think?
>Politico: Uh, do you know how many organ transplants the Baron has had?
>Medico: No...
>Politico: Thirty-four. He's apparently on his 15th liver.
>Medico: Oh...
>
>Ethan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Almost all of the insights and profundities that constitute my wisdom have
been taken without permission from others. If you suspect that your wisdom
has been stolen to embellish my reputation, first double-check to make sure
that your insights are still around. Very often, notions and ideas are not
stolen at all, but merely 'copied'. If you still feel that you have been
wronged, please contact the author to negotiate a settlement satisfactory to
all involved parties. Ironically, the author does not grant you permission
to use said ideas, regardless of their original source.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] =Forms_of_military_ address
Message-ID: <20020212.135345.-95489.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:06:33 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 11:13 PM 2/12/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
> >years ??
> >They must have a terrible retention rate.
> 
> It also might be that the USMC is a bit larger than the NZ forces.
> 
> Most US servicepeople do their four years and get out.

I was active only 3 years (USArmy) yet made E-2 out of Basic, and E-4 by
my 15th month in. In the 17th month I was temporarily given the rank of
Acting Sergeant E-5. They wanted to make it permanent, but couldn't due
to not enough time in grade as an E-4.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:12:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:12:34 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
Message-ID: <F22zp4ITnESxfXyEUEZ000158f7@hotmail.com>

>>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal 
>>squad/fire-
>>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, 
>>including
>>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.
>
>I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in Traveller:2300, we had
>3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of the British Army. See
>http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm (although 2300,
>it would be great to adapt to Traveller).

</lurk mode>

I'm reading this late, so forgive me if this point has been answered.  I've 
skimmed lots of subject lines and deleted most in the interest of time.

When I joined the USMC (PLC/OCS in 81/82 and as a 2d Lt in 83) we were 
organized with 3 fireteams to the squad, 3 squads to the Plt, 3 Plt to the 
Company (with the added weapons Plt), then 3 Companies to the Btn (with the 
added H&S company).  3 Battalions made up a Regiment, with the added support 
organizations.  A Bn was task organized for deployments with added tank, 
artillery, MT, Amphib support, turning it into a Battalion Landing Team.

Of course, we reorganized into two fireteams / squad... but I don't remember 
when that was.

Cheers,

<lurk mode>
Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:18:41 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_	stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:

> As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
> Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
> is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
> though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
> told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. 

For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:19:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:19:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
 <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020212164407.00a85618@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <3C6994DF.11B996AA@sitraka.com>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> This stuff was discussed in great detail back on the TNE Pocket Empire list

No doubt.

> When you are rebuilding from a small, but advanced tech base, there are
> easier shortcuts to take.

You also build differently when you're rolling out to a really large
user base all at once versus an incremental rollout. And you roll out
untested tech differently from tested tech, etc, etc. Very true.

> RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding areas of
> what used to be East German.
> Residential buildings had 1' TV satellites attached by each apartment window.
> These buildings were built no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put
> up these dishes and make use of the orbital infrastructure than to run
> cable to each and every building/apartment.
> 
> Same with Cell phones.

Isn't this mentioned in Tarsus? The PCs can pick up commo 
sets that use an orbital satellite network a la Iridium, although
Tarsus predated any such systems by quite a few years. IIRC the system
was the standard planet wide communication system and PCs could also
request custom "handles" instead of stock phone numbers. It was
sort of like signing up for free email - you get to pick you address,
in so far as you pick one no one else is using.

Great module Tarsus.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:36:43 -0700
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_	stories?=
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:
> 
> 
>>As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
>>Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
>>is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
>>though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
>>told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. 
>>
> 
> For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.

No, simply a judge gently informing a smartass swabbie just whose court 
it was.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:46:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:46:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F262Z4wxTTpSRXCbcxv000144fe@hotmail.com>

>
>In the USMC (Uncle Sam's Misguided Children), if he is a Master Sergeant or
>Master Gunnery Sergeant, that's what you call him.  Not First Sergeant or
>Sergeant Major.  On occasions that are even slightly formal, if the
>Sergeant Major is serving in the billet of Battalion, Regiment, or Division
>Sergeant Major, it might be a good idea to say it that way.  Tell the
>truth, I can't remember whether we have Division Sergeants Major.  There is
>only one E-10 in the USMC at any given time, and the name of his rank is
>"Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps".

We do have Division Sergeants Major.  As a Captain, I always called my 
MGySgt "Master Gunnery Sergeant" or "Master Guns".  I never saw so much salt 
in my life as on that crusty old MGySgt...

I NEVER called a First Sergeant 'First Shirt', he was 'Top'.

>We do, rarely, call First Sergeants "First Shirt", but less often to their
>faces, and you'd better have well proven yourself to everyone there to back
>up such apparent saltiness if you're going to do it.  Or be an officer of
>virtually any rank.
>
>I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
>has been dying and is almost gone.

Gunner is still (was when I was there) the tradition, amongst officers 
anyway.  Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was 
insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the USN.  And 
the Gunner rank actually came back in when I was just getting out.  But it 
is VERY hard to become a true gunner.

>As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment are:
>(1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant  (better
>outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their face)

I remember being called all of these.  Definately by others with higher rank 
than I.  The Boot Lieutenant though is a specific 2dlt who is THE boot.  The 
lowest ranking lieutenant.

>(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're going
>to address them that way to their face)
>(3) just plain "lieutenant" for either 1st or 2nd lieutenants (acceptable
>in most situations)
>(4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
>regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)

Skipper is also used with any USMC captain.  Simply because in the USN, the 
Captain is the skipper of the ship.  Ergo, I was "skipper" to most of my 
Marines when assigned at HQMC.  Heck, the whole time I was a Captain, I was 
skipper to someone!  And when I called my carpool buddies at USN Bureau of 
Personnel, I was always "Captain Smith" and got right through to the people 
I needed to talk to.  They always thought I was an O6 calling officially...

>(5) old man, for any of the above  (most frequently used for battalion
>commander, rare for company commander) and even higher commanders (such
>informality should be used with care)
>
>A related piece of USMC slang

>For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's
>Intelligence Officer and people quite commonly say things like "Give that
>to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2." or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2".
>Further, they are said to run a "shop".  "This is my shop," or "Find
>someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on,"  or "I work in the S-2
>shop".

True!  I was the '4' for the 8th Communications Battalion, 2d FSSG for a 
couple of years.  I owned the 4-shop.  Had a gunny who worked with me.  He 
was my 'Chief'.  Had a Warrant Officer too.  Called him 'WO' (woe) at times, 
but mostly 'Gunner'.

Oh, and an aside...  Never call a USMC Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.  He'll tell 
you that's a disease.  To your face.  :-)

And as a new Officer Candidate (and I'm sure it carries over for recruits, 
and more so) never say "You" when talking to your Platoon Sergeant or 
instructor...  I remember the ONE time I did that.  He went off!  It was 
words to the effect of...and at a distance of about 2 inches....and at a 
decibel level that was damaging...but most effective, "Ewe?!  EWE?!  Did you 
just call me a EWE?  What!?!  Do I have WOOL on my A$$?  You want to F____ 
me?" and so on and so forth until well, until he got tired.  And then he 
started all over again later on.  Priceless...

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC

(former)

AKA

Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:59:09 +0000
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>

I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill 
are different in the armies. For example.

Position	US		Commonwealth
Rifleman: 	>Corporal	Private
Squad Cdr	Sergeant	Corporal
Platoon Sgt	Staff Sgt	Sergeant
CSM		1st Sergeant	WO2 (CSM)
Platoon Cdr	Lieutenant	Lieutenant-Captain
Company Cdr	Captain		Major
Battalion Cdr	Major		Lt. Colonel

In all cases, the person at a given rank would have had longer service in 
the commonwealth model, and would be of a lower rank.

A friend of a friend (a WO2) was attached to the US army, and was given the 
privileges of his US equivalents rank, a Brigadier General, but that was a 
specialised field.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:56:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:56:45 +1100
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C699DAD.1090302@yarranet.net.au>

Laning wrote:

> Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
> Landgrab references?

The only reference at the list of worlds is to a TNS entry.
	http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:58:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:58:28 +1100
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
References: <000401c1b401$f4eb1aa0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <3C699E14.1080300@yarranet.net.au>

J-Man wrote:

> I did this once in GW BASIC.  I used the letter frequency charts for the
> English language.  I did mainly get jibberish, but sometimes it spat out
> some pretty large words that were actually words.  :)

Any chance you still have the charts?

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 23:13:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:13:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
References: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A5887.24560.6F0FE0@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 22:59, Bryn Monnery wrote:

> I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill 
> are different in the armies. For example.
> 
> Position	US		Commonwealth
> Rifleman: 	>Corporal	Private
> Squad Cdr	Sergeant	Corporal
> Platoon Sgt	Staff Sgt	Sergeant
> CSM		1st Sergeant	WO2 (CSM)
> Platoon Cdr	Lieutenant	Lieutenant-Captain
> Company Cdr	Captain		Major
                            ^^^^^
IME this should be Captain - Major

> Battalion Cdr	Major		Lt. Colonel


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 23:59:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:59:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1b41b$55df51a0$35912fc3@computer>
Message-ID: <B88EEC5F.251A9%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: "Finn Svanlund Harteg" <Svanlund@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:42 +0100
To: <Tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Megalithic yard

To those, who are interested in units of length and ancient metrology.

In the book, The Bornholm Mystery - 1993, as concerns with distances between
churches on Bornholm, Denmark, the most important distance is that between
the churches in sterlars and Nylars = 14 335.59 m. The same as the distance
between the churches in sterlars and Rutsker =  14335.71 m. The author,
E.Haagensen did not find any known unit of length here. The average of the
two distances is 14 335.65 m.

However, you can get to the length of 14 333.7 m by using:

METRES AND TIME
10 000 km x pi : 6, divided with the numbers of days in a tropical year. It
 is: 10 000 km x 3.1415926536 : 6 : 365.24219871..=      14335.65939.. m.
 (Pi as 3.1416 gives, 14 335.69..m ).

CUBITS
44 x the diagonal in Cheops ( the side is 440 cubits  0.5236 m ). It is
44 x 230.384 m x V2 =
14 335.7358 m.
(Cubit as 3.1416 m : 6 gives, 14 335.702..m ).

The average of these two distances is 14 335.698 m or      14 335.7 m.

MEGALITHIC YARD
1 old foot = 12 old inches = 12 x 0.025399772 m = 0.304797264 m.
1 MYB  ( Megalithic yard Bornholm ) =  10 000 old  feet : 3675 =
2.721088435 old foot =  0.8293803108 m.
1 meter = 1 000 MYB : pi : 264.
1 old foot = 0.3675 MYB.
10 000 MYB x 11 : 9 x V2 =                                               14
335.7 m.


Finn Harteg
Svanlund@get2net.dk




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:01:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:01:40 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020213110140.A8578@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Um...while Hi-pop worlds have low trade volumes relative to their
> GWPs, lower population worlds don't always (depending on port code).
> A port-C pop-7 TL-7 world (UWTN 4, WTN 4, pop 30M, GWP 45B or so) is
> likely to have total trade equivalent to about BTN 9 or 9.5,
> accounting for around 10% of GWP.

Yep.  Then half of that will be exports, some unknown percentage will
be trade of goods at the same or lower tech level, and much of the
remainder will go toward infrastructure maintenance.  Import of
higher-tech consumer goods may not make up more than a percent or two.


>  Lower population worlds will have even more.  Any areas near a port
> (where PCs are most often found) will have disproportionately high
> penetration of offworld goods in any case.

Agreed.


> > Also, look at the population distributions.
[...]
> If Tenalphi (1828 spinware marches) can maintain TL 14 with a
> population of 60, there's no way TL has anything to do with
> manufacturing capability, seeing as Tenalphi doesn't have any.

If you look at the trade volume Tenalphi has (GWP 450 kCr, trade more
than 60000 kCr), it becomes pretty clear that its local production
infrastructre probably is entirely supported by offworld trade.
e.g. it may consist of a largely automated antimatter production
facility (hence its local production is almost entirely high-tech
goods), maintained and supported by a much larger external industrial
base.

Such a situation seems far less likely for worlds having trade volumes
substantially lower than their GWP, which describes most Traveller
worlds.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:16:00 +1100
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
References: <F150ad2VqKwRPQIWDO300003d6d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C69B040.8000005@gmx.net>

Robert Kondrk wrote:

>> From: "Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>> Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
>> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
>>
>> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily 
>> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." 
>> Any ideas, anyone?
>>
>> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
>> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics
>
>
> I remember reading the original BBC story about this last spring.  
> AFAIK, they still don't know the cause of this anomaly.
>
Subspace?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:14:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:14:46  0000
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
Message-ID: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>

I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain the concept to me?

Cheers

Other thant that I've no real thoughts on Pscias other than I've put an ISS research post there and there a couple of links to an ongoing plot I've got. If you could implement that then anything else would be great.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:26:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020213110140.A8578@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013560014.2060.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> Yep.  Then half of that will be exports, some unknown percentage will
> be trade of goods at the same or lower tech level, and much of the
> remainder will go toward infrastructure maintenance.  Import of
> higher-tech consumer goods may not make up more than a percent or two.

It's unclear whether the total is exports+imports, or average of exports and
imports.  In most cases, the majority of a world's trade is with local
high-tech worlds, so we can assume that the vast majority of goods being traded
for will be TL 10-12.

As for what will be bought, that's easy.  Whatever is cheaper to buy than to
locally produce.  You'll see essentially zero production of low-tech aircraft
(grav vehicles are cheaper and more reliable) and low-tech armored vehicles
(higher tech vehicles outpower low-tech vehicles by ridiculous margins).  On
the other hand, you'll see a lot of locally produced cloth, food, buildings,
power lines, etc.  You'll probably also see local production of assault rifles
and a variety of other expendable munitions.
> 
> Such a situation seems far less likely for worlds having trade volumes
> substantially lower than their GWP, which describes most Traveller
> worlds.

My point is that Tenalphi probably has no local manufacturing capacity at all. 
As such, talking about 'local production' defining TL is inane.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:54:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:54:43  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <DKAAACCGHLHOGBAA@angelfire.com>

Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


I'm sorry I started this now.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:21:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:21:56 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Is he the walrus?
Message-ID: <72.179248d4.299b19b4@aol.com>

In a message dated 12-Feb-02 3:56:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> At 03:46 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
>  >So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>  >delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>  >display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>  >to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>  >Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>  >guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>  >neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>  >monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>  >method of neutralization.
>  
>  I shall notify the Egg Board.

Ook-ook a choob!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:30:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:30:28 EST
Subject: [TML] New Force
Message-ID: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com>

> I've heard about this before, mentioned wrt the Galileo and Ulysses 
>  probes.  Having it confirmed for the Pioneer craft is cool.  I wonder 
>  if this force [if it exists] is related to the "dark energy" so popular in 
>  current theory (although that is supposed to be a repulsive force).  
>  Much oddness, and from oddness can spring all manner of new 
>  and amazing tech.
>  
>  I know we have a few physics and astronomy types here, any 
>  comments from folk who know more than I?

Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some history:

The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were 
designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to 
this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*

LKW

* Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:33:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:33:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C69C24D.545E9A@premier.net>



Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 
> I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain the concept to me?

It all started during a flamewar in early 2000.  Doug Berry suggested
that te energies spent on invective could be better used in developing
and writing worlds in the Spinward Marches.

Links to the Landgrab writeups may be found at:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

http://www.spinwardmarches.com/

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:59:10 -0600
Subject: Chinese spam (was Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150)
References: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C69C86E.11054D83@ameritech.net>




> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:18:10 -0600
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
> 
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> > tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> > > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> > >  >
> > >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> > >  >
> > >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > >  > lifting capacity.
> > >  >
> > >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> > >
> > >  What, no Striker stats?
> >
> > Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

ROFLMAO

> 
> All your pallet are belong to us.

<splort> 

Please score one keyboard kill to John Groth, with an assist
from Loren Wiseman.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:16:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:16:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213031839.WXZW319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 23:13:57 +1300, Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
typed:
>My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
>years ??

Only rarely.  That's why I said I was proud of my feat.  Five years was
typically a new corporal.  If you see a lance corporal with five years, you
know he's been busted at least once.  This was peace time, 1980-86.  The
USMC is always much poorer than the other three branches, so we don't have
as much money for formal schooling.

The Air Force, Army, and Navy promoted faster than we do.  I think we all
promoted *much* more slowly prior to the huge military expansion for WW2.
But still faster than our UK and Commonwealth counterparts.

FWIW, I I always thought rank should come at a rate more comparable to what
you guys do, Senor Pitt.  One reason we haven't done that is more pressure
to be competitive with civilian pay.  The US has maintained a much higher
percentage of its population in the military than most countries ever since
WW2, and we've been all volunteer since 1975.  When people have a choice
between a civilian job in the leading economy in the world or the military,
you gotta do something.  I suspect there's also a cultural difference over
mobility between economic classes, and this is represented even in our
military.  I've always thought it would be cool to give pay raises for both
seniority and merit, in addition to the pay raise that comes with a
promotion.  That way there's no pressure to promote people simple to keep
their pay competitive and retain them in the service.  You can give them
competitive pay while keeping them at the rank they actually earn.

ObTrav:  Does anyone have a __simple__ set of rule mods for Traveller char
gen that would realistically portray these kinds of differences between
different branches, different empires, different planetary militaries?
[BTW, in the States "military" includes the naval and air services.]
Something that gives consistent results for each planet and service?  It
probably should be based on TL, population, and other such codes, plus some
way of taking cultural differences into account, and what percentage of the
population is in the military.  I'd prefer CT or MT.  If I drum up my own
mod for this, I'll go ahead and post it to the List.

--Laning
As long as I can remember, I've had amnesia.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:40:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 04:35:29 -0700, Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> typed:
>I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.

In most if not all states.  You can get points on your driver's license
from offenses on a bicycle and everything.

>It certainly doesn't
>make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
>will.

Our legal system considers suicide a crime, so it makes sense in that
respect.  Also, consider the damage a deer can do when a car strikes it,
and that's much lighter than a human and doesn't have lots of metal parts
sticking out.

I've known of way too many bicycle fatalities, not always the fault of a
motorist.  Be careful out there, people.  And always wear a helmet.

--Laning
Gravity.  Not just a good idea, it's the law.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:50:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Mysterious force in space
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213035242.XFDN319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 20:02:57 +0400, Andrew Long <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
typed:
<<<SNIP>>>
>Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of =
>Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to =
>the sun by an unknown force.
>
>The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels =
>deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that =
>the probe has revealed a new force of nature,
<<<SNIP>>>
Duh.  Any reader of Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers stories will tell
you that Pioneer 10 is approaching the edge of our pocket universe.  If Red
Orc were still alive, he'd be reading the newspaper article and chortling.

--Laning
"All your pocket universe are belong to us." -an anonymous Beller
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:53:06 +1100
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>

LKW lectured:
> Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some
history:
>
> The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were
> designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to
> this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*
>
> LKW
>
> * Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.

Bummer...
I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Ok, so we didn't.  But we were *going* to.
..then the acid really kicked in.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:22:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:22:36 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F1259F4Ytioehd5uq7m00016cf6@hotmail.com>

From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>

     My brother (US Navy) told me of one of his enlisted cruises, before he 
got an appointment to the academy.  As the crew was heading out for liberty 
at a foreign port, the medical officer was seen standing by the gangway, 
poking a large hypodermic needle repeatedly into a block of wood.  "Have 
fun, boys...I'll have this nice and dull
for you when you get back."


Mr. Smith,

     Ah, the old "square needle-in-the-left-testicle" treatment!  It works 
every time!
     I know of one case of STD that cost the fellow a pay grade.  One of the 
E-4s in my engineroom managed to contract gonorrhea while visiting Karachi.  
(I don't even want to KNOW how he did this.  I never even SAW any women when 
ashore in Karachi, no mean feat considering how long we'd been at sea.)
     This chucklehead didn't bother reporting to sick bay when the symptoms 
broke out, despite constant training on the subject.  His treatment required 
bed rest and played holy hell with our watch bill thanks to the miserable 
manning levels aboard.
     After being cured, said moron went to Captain's Mast and lost a 
paygrade, plus additional fines and loss of liberty.  We thumped him when he 
returned to the engineroom too.  Stupid bastard.
     The corpmen kept a never-empty condom box aboard and pro-kits were 
always available, no questions asked.  By not availing himself to these 
resources, this chowderhead had willfully rendered himself unfit for duty 
and got gigged for it, plain and simple.
     During my two WestPacs and 'Round the World cruise, the crew contracted 
more STDs while visiting Perth, Western Australia.  This despite visiting 
other charming spots like Mombasa, Kenya or the Phillipines.  One corpmen's 
theory on this oddity was that most fellows didn't think any precautions 
were necessary when visiting a "normal" country.  Pretty silly in my book.  
Hell, I used pro-kits while in homeport!  Any woman willing to spend time 
with a squid should be automatically suspect.  ;)
     Ma Whipsnade didn't raise no fools!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:09:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020212220720.00e1d100@rollanet.org>

At 01:31 AM 2/12/02, you wrote:
> >From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
> >
> >IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
>in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
>to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
> >Traveller. It took about five minutes.
>
>This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
>brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.
>
>--Glenn

As a rule of thumb, people who aren't worthy who are brought into the 
circle tend to neutralize themselves.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:34:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:34:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C69ECC2.37EE04F1@premier.net>



Shane Slamet wrote:
> 
> LKW lectured:
> > Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some
> history:
> >
> > The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were
> > designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to
> > this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*
> >
> > LKW
> >
> > * Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.
> 
> Bummer...
> I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
> when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
> the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
> bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).

I take it that their response was along the lines of "Because the Yanks
and Japanese haven't cleared them for export yet"? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>

I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.

Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know if
leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy sailors
called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
> >>Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
> >>is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
> >>though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
> >>told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also.
> >>
> >
> > For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.
>
> No, simply a judge gently informing a smartass swabbie just whose court
> it was.
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:51:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F205Lo7vhd0zV7RPoSn0000fd06@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding
areas of what used to be East German.  Residential buildings had 1' TV 
satellites attached by each apartment window.  These buildings were built no 
later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put up these dishes and make use of 
the orbital infrastructure than to run cable to each and every 
building/apartment."

     "Same with Cell phones."


Mr. Urbin,

     That's one aspect of increasing TLs that I feel have never been 
adequately explored; "industrial inertia".  The more infrastructure already 
in place for the "old" TL and longer it has been there, the harder it should 
be to replace it.  Especially if the new device's or infrastructure's 
function is already handled "well enough" or can be handled "well enough" by 
the old device or infrastructure in the populations' eyes.
     Case in point.  The EU stole the march on wireless technology because 
it was an end around a particular infrastructure bottleneck, that being 
wires running to every house and apartment.  The US naturally looked to 
dial-up modems and cable TV becaue there was a wire, and all those telephone 
poles, already standing there.  Other nations, especially without the 
massive wire and pole investment the US has, simply "jumped over" that stage 
of development.  While most folks in the EU and other places get there TV 
and internet via wireless methods, the majority of the US population gets 
the same services over wires.  The US is using a lower TL infrastructure to 
provide a higher TL service becasue the lo-tech infrastructure is already in 
place.
     Another RW example can be found in Mexico.  A brother-in-law works in 
telecommunication consulting and has visited Mexico on that business for 
decades now.  For a variety of cultural reasons, the wait for a phone 
landline in that country was measured in years.  Then cell phones got cheap. 
  While the Mexican phone company was still struggling to raise poles and 
string lines for landline phone service, other companies built microwave 
towers and sold cell phones.  Currently, the majority of Mexicans use cell 
phones as their primary telephone as opposed to the majority of Americans 
who have cell phones as only a secondary phone.  If you used the cell 
phone/landline phone as a development yardstick, Mexico would be more 
developed than the US.
     How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use 
them?
     I call it "industrial inertia", but I'm sure the sociology boffins have 
some more accurate term for it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:33:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>



alan spik wrote:
> 
> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

ISTR someone suggesting that Marines might be referred to as "Girlies in
Dresses" (the "dresses" in question being battledress).  Personally, I
like "maroons" for Marines (a reference to their garrison uniforms, and
pronounced a la Bugs Bunny mispronouncing "moron" [with the same
meaning]).  [BTW, you shouldn't call Marines "jarheads."  After all, you
can put things in jars.... ;-)]

"Swabbie" will still hold true for both wet-navy and space navy types
("squid" being limited to wet-navy personnel); space navy personnel
might also be referred to with some derivative of "space case."  IISS
personnel might be referred to as "_Cub_ Scouts."

There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)

<<snip>>

[*] GT:GF sidebar, pages 30-31.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:46:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:46:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F223sAuCs9aXyKyfIFj00012a54@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

      "FWIW, I I always thought rank should come at a rate more comparable 
to what you guys do, Senor Pitt.  One reason we haven't done that is more 
pressure to be competitive with civilian pay."


Sir,

     We had a discussion in this vein about this time last year.  Yes, the 
armed services need to retain their most qualified personnel in some manner 
and, yes, pay is one way to do it.  But a wildly different pay scale for 
different jobs within the same service could have dire consequences for 
moral.
     I was a "push-button" E-4, made it about one month out of basic after 
successfully completing "A" school.  That was one of the benefits of being a 
nuc.  I also meant that everyone in a nuc engineroom was already a petty 
officer.  Anyone familiar with normal enginerooms, and the usual "this job 
means this rank" assumptions, would have been extremely confused.
     There was another side effect too.  Because we all had been given rank 
rapidly, we all paid very little attention to it.  It meant nothing to us, 
competence in the job mattered and not the number of chevrons on your 
sleeve.  This put us at odds with the non-nuc portions of the crew.  There 
an E-5 or E-6 had years in the Navy, he expected and recieved the deference 
due to his senority.  He never got that from the nucs and it led to a chilly 
relationship between "nuc" and "topsider".
     To us, rank did not automatically equate with competence.  Rank was 
merely a yardstick of how long you'd been in, nothing more.  Thanks to my 
"push-button" crow and a nonexistant surface nuc retention rate, I was 
guaranteed to make E-7 the year I got out.  That's chief in less than 7 
years.
     My first engineroom leading petty officer was an E-4.  Smitty refused 
to hand in the book work or take the tests for advancement, feeling his nuc 
qualifications were good enough and the Navy rank system need not apply in 
the engineroom.  He had nearly 5 years in and, from every standpoint other 
than rank, was the best man for the job.  He gave orders to E-5s and E-6s 
because he was better qualified then they, not because he had more rank then 
they.  Can you see that working in any other military situations?
     The need for the Navy to train and retain those people who could 
successfully complete nuc propulsion training led to this topsy-turvy 
climate.  I'm not so certain that, in the end, it was good for the Navy or 
would be good for any other armed service.



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:53:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Miltary
 stories
In-Reply-To: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B88F3F74.25316%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/12/02 8:37 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know
> if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy
> sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Spam? as in Spam in a can.  Liked this in "The right stuff"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <119.c71662b.299a05c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>

Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these 
years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls 
off.........  ;-)

At 12:44 AM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, Tod L Glenn
>writes (in his sig):
>
> > When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>
>go to http://www.cafepress.com/irbwgren and you can buy a t-shirt with that
>sentiment . . . and get me a couple of bucks in the bargain.
>
>LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:43:36 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020213174336.A9160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Laning wrote:
> In most if not all states.  You can get points on your driver's license
> from offenses on a bicycle and everything.

Here you can get fined for traffic offenses incurred while riding a
bicycle, but they won't affect your driver's licence (if you have
one).

On a related note, there are some car parks here with a legally
mandated speed limit of 5 km/hr!  The fine for exceeding the speed
limit by 30 km/hr is pretty astronomical.  It is therefore technically
possible to cop a few hundred dollar fine for riding a bicycle in such
a car park.  Even when the shops they service are shut and there are
no cars in it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:44:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:44:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020212223231.00a40c20@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500, "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
> >but give us the dough.
>
>College towns usually feel the same way about their student
>populations.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

In all fairness (as a former college student, and current resident of the 
same college town) to the transient populations in question... while they 
may make a big stink about how the permanent residents of the surrounding 
community harass them and infringe upon their rights, etc etc, they also 
tend to be (on average) a LOT more rowdy, undisciplined, and/or 
trouble-causing than said residents.

After a few years of dealing with overgrown children who are 
without  supervision (parental and/or military) for the first time in their 
lives, noisily experimenting with sex, drugs, vehicles and property damage 
in the usual combinations, even the most even-tempered policeman or 
bartender can find his patience and goodwill toward his fellow man sorely 
tested.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 07:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:43:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B88F590E.2535C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/12/02 10:36 PM, Charles McKnight at res0i3sf@verizon.net wrote:

> Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these
> years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls
> off.........  ;-)
> 

Unless you've lost the pin.  Then you've got a friend for life.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:02:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:02:16 -0000
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
References: <B88EEC5F.251A9%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1b46c$6ea59ea0$d96f893e@fabian>

This looks clever on the face of it, but it is on the exact same level as
the maths that demonstrate that it is possible to derive the number 666
from almost any name or its initials, thereby 'proving' that person X is
the spawn of the devil. Numerology doesn't really prove anything, and it
would be more remarkable if you *couldn't* derive these numbers from
established units.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.





----------
From: "Finn Svanlund Harteg" <Svanlund@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:42 +0100
To: <Tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Megalithic yard

To those, who are interested in units of length and ancient metrology.

In the book, The Bornholm Mystery - 1993, as concerns with distances
between
churches on Bornholm, Denmark, the most important distance is that between
the churches in $B%j(Bsterlars and Nylars = 14 335.59 m. The same as the
distance
between the churches in $B%j(Bsterlars and Rutsker =  14335.71 m. The author,
E.Haagensen did not find any known unit of length here. The average of the
two distances is 14 335.65 m.

However, you can get to the length of 14 333.7 m by using:

METRES AND TIME
10 000 km x pi : 6, divided with the numbers of days in a tropical year.
It
 is: 10 000 km x 3.1415926536 : 6 : 365.24219871..=      14335.65939.. m.
 (Pi as 3.1416 gives, 14 335.69..m ).

CUBITS
44 x the diagonal in Cheops ( the side is 440 cubits $B!&(B0.5236 m ). It is
44 x 230.384 m x V2 =
14 335.7358 m.
(Cubit as 3.1416 m : 6 gives, 14 335.702..m ).

The average of these two distances is 14 335.698 m or      14 335.7 m.

MEGALITHIC YARD
1 old foot = 12 old inches = 12 x 0.025399772 m = 0.304797264 m.
1 MYB  ( Megalithic yard Bornholm ) =  10 000 old  feet : 3675 =
2.721088435 old foot =  0.8293803108 m.
1 meter = 1 000 MYB : pi : 264.
1 old foot = 0.3675 MYB.
10 000 MYB x 11 : 9 x V2 =
14
335.7 m.


Finn Harteg
Svanlund@get2net.dk



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:50:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213095251.YZNG319.dorsey@link>

On Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 22:46:17 +0000 Greg Smith
<a_maclintock@hotmail.com> typed:
SNIP
>>>
Skipper is also used with any USMC captain.  Simply because in the USN, the 
Captain is the skipper of the ship.  Ergo, I was "skipper" to most of my 
Marines when assigned at HQMC.  Heck, the whole time I was a Captain, I was 
skipper to someone!  And when I called my carpool buddies at USN Bureau of 
Personnel, I was always "Captain Smith" and got right through to the people 
I needed to talk to.  They always thought I was an O6 calling officially...
<<<
Yep, good one.  Of course, here in the Virginia suburbs of Washington,
D.C., Navy captains and full bird colonels are a dime a dozen but not so
devalued that your phone call isn't handled respectfully.  You might
appreciate this one:    I got mail from my father almost every day in boot
camp, with the return address always saying "Captain, USN" on it.  That
didn't really help my standing with the drill instructors, lol.

Wow, sounds like we missed each other by not much.  I was at HQMC for
awhile working for Maj Bob Lee in Promotions circa 1984.  He's a Damned
Fine Officer, and widely respected.  I understand he's a full bird now and
on the brink of retirement.  He had one war story that was so interesting
somebody finally got him to write it up for the Marine Corps Gazette.  The
same war story that at least partly explains why he isn't a general now.
Most of my time prior to that was in 1st Mar Div.  Spent 1985 at TBS down
in Quantico, firing the last 105 howitzers in the Corps to support the
training there.  I did know a Lt Smith in Pendleton, but that wasn't you as
his MOS was 08.  Heh, I started chewing him out one day for showing up an
hour late to relieve the guard when I was a corporal.  His butter bar on
his raincoat was missing or obscured, and he was brand new to the unit.  He
started to give the same back to me after his face turned solid red and he
revealed his rank, but then just dropped it, even though he was still
ticked.  The two lance corporals present were shocked at first, then dying
from trying not to laugh for the entire ten-minute drive the four of us
took to return to our area.  It later turned out he was a very good
officer, btw.  Oh yeah...I did know a WO Greg Smith whose MOS was 06 after
I was discharged.  He was married to one of my ex-wife's best friends and
also spent a lot of time at HQMC.


SNIP
>>>True!  I was the '4' for the 8th Communications Battalion, 2d FSSG for a 
couple of years.  I owned the 4-shop.  Had a gunny who worked with me.  He 
was my 'Chief'.
<<<
My cousin came in on the Bulldog program not too long after you entered the
Corps, last name of Giornelli.  He did not make Captain before being
discharged.  He was not good material for getting promoted as an officer,
even though he's a very smart guy and very tough.  I believe he was at 2nd
FSSG for awhile, and his MOS was 04.  Wonder if you encountered him?  Come
to think of it, my cousin's life story would make a good player character
or NPC.

>>>
Had a Warrant Officer too.  Called him 'WO' (woe) at times, 
but mostly 'Gunner'.

Oh, and an aside...  Never call a USMC Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.  He'll tell 
you that's a disease.  To your face.  :-)
<<<
Yeah, I forgot to mention those two.  Depends who outranks who, the WO's
personal preferences, and who is around whether you call him WO or not.
The WOs I knew were usually staff sergeants before going to warrant officer
school, if anyone's interested.  :->

>>>
And as a new Officer Candidate (and I'm sure it carries over for recruits, 
and more so) never say "You" when talking to your Platoon Sergeant or 
instructor...  I remember the ONE time I did that.  He went off!  It was 
words to the effect of...and at a distance of about 2 inches....and at a 
decibel level that was damaging...but most effective, "Ewe?!  EWE?!  Did you 
just call me a EWE?  What!?!  Do I have WOOL on my A$$?  You want to F____ 
me?" and so on and so forth until well, until he got tired.  And then he 
started all over again later on.  Priceless...
<<<
Ditto for boot camp.  It takes weeks for them to train their voices to
shout that loud.  I don't suppose you dealt with a Staff Sergeant Gerard at
OCS or TBS, possibly just sergeant?  He was one of my drill instructors in
boot camp and then spent a lot of time as an instructor in Quantico.  I ran
into him there as I was processing out of the Corps, and he was still an
instructor.  Another outstanding Marine.

--Laning Polatty, (former) Sergeant USMC, saluting the Captain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:02:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:02:53 -0000
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com> <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <00f401c1b474$32ff9060$d96f893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net>

> There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
> for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
> Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)

I don't see why not. My dad was in the Queen's Dragoon Guards, QDG for
short, unofficially known as the Queen's Dancing Girls. I'm sure other
regiments had equally informal monikers.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:13:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] List of Worlds site
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213101551.ZERY319.dorsey@link>

WOW!  This site is great!  It looks pretty comprehensive.  Thank you very
much.

--Laning

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 09:56:45 +1100, Phill Webb
<pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> typed:
>The only reference at the list of worlds is to a TNS entry.
>	http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:19:17 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2235@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20213.011917.1K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
>> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.
>
> Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
> failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
> from the other books.
>
> Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
> developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
> wouldn't be a credibility gap.
> <
>
> Well, I actually totally agree with that. 
>
> But in this case I mean that a simpler design system doesn't need to be
> compatible with any PARTICULAR design system. 
>
> You should be able to build all the Traveller ships with the Traveller
> trade-offs. But trying to match a particular design system - rather than
> the standard "Traveller" ships seems like a "requirements flaw" (I'm
> betting there is enough people that understand that concept on this board!)

The thing is. the detail design system has to make logical sense, and
*not* allow stupid sorts of "tuning" designs to breakpoints in the tables.

The simple design system needs to produce ships that work under the
detail system *and* that aren't greatly better or worse. Especially
better. 

A player is going to be justifiably pissed if he puts a lot of work
into a detailed design and another player can put together a *better*
design with the simple system.

And likewise, while the player using the simple system won't be too
upset if his design is somewhat inferior to the one from the detailed
system, he's gonna be understandly upset is it's so much *worse* that
it'sz a major problem.

>>>>>>>> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
>>>>>>>> roleplaying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves
> knowing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of
> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if
> a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22
> caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>>>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same
> damage?
>
> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 

Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.

>>>>>>Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into
> a
>>>>>>starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with
>
> Great - tell me how many tons of what I can and can't put into the ship.
> That's valuable, but surface area? That depends on what picture I use for
> the ship! Using surface area is a clever idea, but hardpoints or tons are
> much more 'Travelleresque'. Surface are can be 'fudged' - Traveller has
> obviously not used this - they've used hardpoints. I think it's an
> interesting idea, but not very playable/ workable. 

Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics is
going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 

And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
easy to see it is.

>>>>>>Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
>>>>>>system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
>>>>>>ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
>>>>>>these ships, you can't build it."  
>
> So what - the GM can take away ANYTHING they want to! 

Yes, but *intelligent* ones don't do so arbitrarily.

>>>>>>If we create
>>>>>>simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to
> make
>>>>>>sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
>>>>>>detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.
>
> Yes, but that's VERY different than "fully compatible". I agree they should
> involve similar tradeoffs and build the same kind of ships. I don't agree
> that they should be FULLY compatible. That's seems like an engineering
> misnomer. 

"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system are
still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.

> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression that we
> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in the
> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....

Why not? 

The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
weren't part of the original list.

Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But
they'll be there if they are ever needed.

>>>>>>Far better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details,
> even if
>>>>>>only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.
>
> Not if those details *detract* from the usability of the system. The
> details I mentioned losing are those that detract from using the system
> IMHO. Remember, no one expects the gearhead to use a system that I will
> like! But there's not much point if I wouldn't use it either!

> I don't mind have those 'extraneous' details as optional add-on modules.
> "Generic Hardpoint" versus "Detailed Hardpoint" for example. It's only when
> I can't build a scout ship without measuring the surface area that I balk
> (another exaggerated example). 

Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same volume
(ie "same tonnage").

Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.

Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to know
*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how much
surface area they cover).

And then you'll either discover that they won't all fit on one hull, or
that there are huge gaps between them on another.

And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.

> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
> all. 

But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
coexist in the same universe.

It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
to do away with.

Any halfway decent HG design would eat the best Book 2 design for
lunch. 

And in some of the other editions of Traveller, the "simple" designs
were impossible to create with the design system. *Neither* is
acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in your unioverse.
And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
designs/ships.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:43:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:43:51 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
In-Reply-To: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AFA37.13439.EDD46C@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 0:57, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> - Imperium Games went belly up.

> - I'm starting my 5th year at SJ Games.

> Draw your own conclusions . . .

With all respect, I somehow doubt that your involvement in IG 
would have made much difference. There were other "factors" (two 
other factors to be specific) that I'd say pretty much guaranteed the 
eventual sad outcome.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:13:40 PST
Subject: [TML] Companion Stars
In-Reply-To: <20020124192344.84228.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20212.161340.5j7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have a simple question (yeah right!) about the
> Expanded System Creation.  I believe that for the most
> part the rules are the same for most of the game
> systems, but for what it is worth, I'm using the TNE
> book.
>
> Here is the question...
>
> Suppose I am rolling up a system and I roll a 12 for
> step 3 on the System Nature Table for a trinary
> system.
>
> Now, further suppose that I roll a 12 for both the
> first and second companion orbits in step 7.  The
> result is a far orbit for both.  (Actually a roll of
> 8+ for the second companion will do the same.)
>
> Now, for the final assumption.  Say I roll a 9+ for
> both of the natures of the of the companions on the
> System Nature Table (Step 10).  They are both binary
> systems.
>
> Now the questions...
>
> 1.  This means I have a Quintuple star system?!?!
>
> 2.  Is this possible?  (Granted it is a .002964%
> chance, but that is one in every 500 systems.)

I don't know about TNE, but for CT (Scouts) expanded generation, there
was a DM for the secondary and tertiary stars. As I recall it was (just
barely) possible to get a 4 star system.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:46:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab inquiry
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213104853.ZGVY319.dorsey@link>

Mt. Whincup, as you may have already discovered since the time you posted
your inquiry, visit the official LandGrab Web site at
http://www.downport.com/landgrab and check out
http://www.spinwardmarches.com too.

The material people create for the LandGrab is not canon.  The person
writing up a system for the LandGrab tries to discover all canonical
information first, and usually but not always keeps their write up
consistent with that.  Consistency with canon is certainly strongly hoped
for, IMHO, but these creative types can be so difficult to control.
Besides, canon sometimes isn't consistent with itself.  Write ups vary in
style and thoroughness, and which edition of Traveller the writer has in mind.

Despite the existence of the official LandGrab site, I thought it was
protocol to inquire first on the TML before making a formal claim to Grab a
system.  If that custom is outdated, someone please advise.

As I understand your reply, Mr. Whincup, the ISS research post and the plot
links are strictly in your Traveller universe (IYTU), and not in any
published material.  I'm a little confused whether you're asking me to
include this material in my LandGrab write up?  Probably not, but maybe.
If you want to provide the material to me to include, then I'll be glad to
try my best to use anything consistent with what I've already established.
Credit for the write up will be shared with you when I post the results.

If I do Grab Pscias, then the beginnings of my write up can be found in the
information about my character's home planet in one of Tod Glenn's games,
accessible by visiting http://www.travellercentral.com then clicking the
PBeM link, then clicking Dark Encounters link, then clicking the PCs link
near the top of the page, then clicking Krowaka.  While mentioning Tod's
game, I have to say that he's doing a great job refereeing.  My fellow
players are just as great, and everyone's really making the play-by-email
experience fun.  I was a little worried that it would be unwieldy, but it's
not a problem at all, at least with the right people.

--Laning
"The surest sign that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe
is that they have never attempted to contact us."  -Bill Waterston, Calvin
& Hobbes
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 00:14:46, Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
>
>I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain
the concept to me?
>
>Cheers
>
>Other thant that I've no real thoughts on Pscias other than I've put an
ISS research post there and there a couple of links to an ongoing plot I've
got. If you could implement that then anything else would be great.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:02 -0600
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C69F12E.7382.5FE83@localhost>

to quote the clancy brothers at one point, who said the germans called the highlanders "The 
Ladies from hell"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 11:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <F262Z4wxTTpSRXCbcxv000144fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Andrew MacLintock <a_maclintock@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was
insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the
USN.>>

Hey!  "Chief" is the highest compliment one human being can pay another
-- but only if the recipient has "earned" it...

 
<<As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment
are:  (1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant
(better outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their
face)>>

"En-swine" in the USN.

<<The Boot Lieutenant though is a specific 2dlt who is THE boot.  The
lowest ranking lieutenant.>>

In the Navy, the senior Ensign is known as the Bull*.  The junior
Ensign is known as the George.

<<(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're
going to address them that way to their face)>>

Just to add to the confusion, in the USN, First Lieutenant is a title
rather than a rank, and, at least aboard the ship I served on, was held
by a Lieutenant Commander.

*I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 11:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:31:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A4EAD.68E08B24@mindspring.com>

If there was any justice in the world, you would now be buying me a new keyboard. I
hope I can get all the grapefruit pulp out.

Gerry Harris wrote:

> *I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
> when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
> the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 12:41:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:41:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020213031839.WXZW319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B15D5.764.74327C@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 22:16, Laning wrote:
> I've always thought it
> would be cool to give pay raises for both seniority and merit, in addition to
> the pay raise that comes with a promotion.  That way there's no pressure to
> promote people simple to keep their pay competitive and retain them in the
> service.  You can give them competitive pay while keeping them at the rank they
> actually earn.

NZ has this. It has some 'interesting' effects because of how it's assesed. The 
system was introduced to do just what you suggested - keep people in the 
service. Because of this the qualifications, etc., that garner the most extra 
pay are those recognised in 'civie street' - chefs' certs, engineering degrees 
and so on. Add in little things like non-combat corps getting bonuses for field 
deployments (because it's tough trying to cook in a tent and live in one too) 
which the tooth arms don't (because it's our job to live in tents - or worse) 
and it should come as no surprise that the tooth arms get the worst recruits 
and have the biggest retention problem (it'd be worse but for the fact that 
unemployment's reasonably high, so ex-grunts find it hard to get work if they 
leave).

It should also come as no surpirse to learn that the tooth arms tend to have 
morale problems, especially if the budget's really tight because that cuts into 
their training more than anyone else's (in the army that is - no money really 
kills the navy and airforce training programs).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 12:35:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:35:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F205Lo7vhd0zV7RPoSn0000fd06@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213073039.01c6c788@192.168.0.1>

You are ever so correct so.  It can be a source of problems as well.

Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in the 50's 
and 60's still in use.
These were designed for a typical call length being 2-5 minutes.
Enter the 90's and everyone and their brother-in-law has a modem.  Call 
lengths shoot from 2-5 minutes to 2-5 hours.
The local telecos are scrambling to add circuits above and beyond what 
their projections for population increase called for.

I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more often than 
for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits.

ObTrav:  Lots of infrastructure games for the PCs to muck with.


At 04:51 AM 2/13/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>     "RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding
>areas of what used to be East German.  Residential buildings had 1' TV 
>satellites attached by each apartment window.  These buildings were built 
>no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put up these dishes and make 
>use of the orbital infrastructure than to run cable to each and every 
>building/apartment."
>     "Same with Cell phones."
>Mr. Urbin,
>     That's one aspect of increasing TLs that I feel have never been 
> adequately explored; "industrial inertia".  The more infrastructure 
> already in place for the "old" TL and longer it has been there, the 
> harder it should be to replace it.  Especially if the new device's or 
> infrastructure's function is already handled "well enough" or can be 
> handled "well enough" by the old device or infrastructure in the 
> populations' eyes.
>     Case in point.  The EU stole the march on wireless technology because 
> it was an end around a particular infrastructure bottleneck, that being 
> wires running to every house and apartment.  The US naturally looked to 
> dial-up modems and cable TV becaue there was a wire, and all those 
> telephone poles, already standing there.  Other nations, especially 
> without the massive wire and pole investment the US has, simply "jumped 
> over" that stage of development.  While most folks in the EU and other 
> places get there TV and internet via wireless methods, the majority of 
> the US population gets the same services over wires.  The US is using a 
> lower TL infrastructure to provide a higher TL service becasue the 
> lo-tech infrastructure is already in place.
>     Another RW example can be found in Mexico.  A brother-in-law works in 
> telecommunication consulting and has visited Mexico on that business for 
> decades now.  For a variety of cultural reasons, the wait for a phone 
> landline in that country was measured in years.  Then cell phones got 
> cheap.  While the Mexican phone company was still struggling to raise 
> poles and string lines for landline phone service, other companies built 
> microwave towers and sold cell phones.  Currently, the majority of 
> Mexicans use cell phones as their primary telephone as opposed to the 
> majority of Americans who have cell phones as only a secondary phone.  If 
> you used the cell phone/landline phone as a development yardstick, Mexico 
> would be more developed than the US.
>     How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
> Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
> grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
> lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use them?
>     I call it "industrial inertia", but I'm sure the sociology boffins 
> have some more accurate term for it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 13:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:49:54 -0500
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202130849_MC3-F1CA-7977@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>> Fuzion not only _is_ a mesh, but it
>>>>>looks and feels like one too - bad game design (do you remember the
early
>>>>>editions were they basically said: "for skill rolls, take 1d10 or 2d6
-
>>>>>whatever"?)

That seems to have bothered alot of people. I had no particular problem
with it. Some people like the bell curve, some people dont. FUZION allows
whichever is preferred. 

I do agree that they didn't try to create a new system so much as slap
together a backwards compatible system that didn't please too many people. 

>>>>>Now that you mention it - my Interlock days are long gone and I can't
>>>>>remember any specific thing. It's more that IMO they spoiled a decent
>>>>>realistic system (Interlock) by adding a system that uses comic book
physics
>>>>>as it's base assumption and didn't even worked out the rough edges
that
>>>>>invariably appear when meshing two entirely different systems.

I can't disagree with that!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:50:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=FF?= Miltary stories
Message-ID: <200202130850_MC3-F1CA-797E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father was 
tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the same 
strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.

If you have a story you'd like to share, knowing that others might archive 
such a story for later use in their campaigns - feel free ;)
<

Is this going to be in a Double Adventure? Are you going to be running this
Traveller game at a convention? ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:32:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:32:15 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F35eya96pfvKPGmMzr100014f61@hotmail.com>

><<Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was
>insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the
>USN.>>
>
>Hey!  "Chief" is the highest compliment one human being can pay another
>-- but only if the recipient has "earned" it...
>
>In the Navy, the senior Ensign is known as the Bull*.  The junior
>Ensign is known as the George.

I had forgotten that.  And IIRC, the Boot is called "Mister Vice" at formal 
Dinings In or Mess Nights.

>*I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
>when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
>the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"


LOL!  This one brought tears to my eyes, and questions from across the hall!

Cheers,

Greg




Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:36:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F122NbtFqFBjz30ef8r000174e6@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>

     "Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in
the 50's and 60's still in use.  The local telecos are scrambling to add 
circuits above and beyond what their projections for population increase 
called for."

     "I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more
often than for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits."


Mr. Urbin,

     Superb example sir!  "Industrial inertia" at it's finest.  Because 
we've sunk so much capital into a now obsolescent, but still servicable, 
system we will still try to work with it rather than replace it.  The local 
telecos will continue to repair, replace, and manufacture equipment from the 
50's or 60's and try to shoehorn 90's and 00's equipment into the mix.  
There are tons and tons of "old" infrastructure is still around, so why not 
try and continue to use it?
     One of the many Traveller examples of this would be the backwater world 
in the Chamax Double Adventure.  That planet is at a ~1940s level of 
technology and doesn't see a lot of off-world trade (the PCs get stuck there 
for months without any other starships making orbit), so most of what the 
planet has they make for themselves.
     The major hi-tech artifact on world, other than the PCs' ship, is a 
automated fusion power plant tucked away along the shore of a sleepy 
peninsular.  This plant is a "gift from the Emperor".  Apparently some heavy 
engineering branch of the IISS or IN or some civilian contractors arrived, 
installed it, and left.
     This 57th century goodie happily purrs along and pumps lots of MWs into 
a 1940's distribution net!  The main trunk line between plant and popualtion 
centers may be a buried, 57th century, superconducting cable, but the juice 
would still flow into factories, offices, and homes via locally manufactured 
distribution net.  After all, the folks installing the Emperor's gift 
wouldn't and couldn't have rewired the entire planet!
     Pa Whipsnade had a summer job prior to visiting Korea during the 
shooting season.  He worked in an electrical substation, fetching coffee and 
what-not for the regular employees and watching the old-timers work the 
substation's switches.  They did so wearing leather guantlets and smocks 
while wielding long wooden poles.  The switches themselves were housed in 
what he described as a concrete bunker within a normal looking building.
     I get a kick picturing the inhabitants of that low-tech world switching 
and re-routing by hand the electrical power generated by fusing hydrogen 
atoms.


     Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:50:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F2587BoCIwazfJLvf3B00008ed6@hotmail.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>>
>>Any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat
>>effectivness' ?
>
>Not really.  Newly minted butterbars tend to be a bit more aware of their
>exalted status as officers and gentlemen, but most of the relax.  One of
>the most together officers I ever knew would go ballistic if you called him
>LT, while my platoon leader had no trouble with it.

I remember at The Basic School (TBS), the school where all new USMC Officers 
are first assigned, that some of the instructors and company staff were 
first lieutenants.  They used to wear us 2ndLts out if we ever passed them 
by and didn't salute.  "Don't you know you are supposed to salute senior 
officers?  What Company are you from?" were the questions, which, when you 
reached the fleet, you learned was bunk.  No lieutenants salute each other.  
I remember two occassions.

1) All new Marine officers attend TBS, even those who are going to be 
lawyers.  They come in having been appointed as 1stLts already, and then 
finish law school.  But they wear the rank of 1stLt while in TBS.  Of 
course, one of these walked right by the snottiest 1stLt instructor who 
proceeded to use that line on him, to which he responded by telling him to 
pack sand, as he carried the same rank.  Wasn't much, but to the rest of us 
in the vicinity, it was priceless.

2) One 2ndLt from 2d Bn / 8th Marine Regiment (2/8) came for a visit to one 
of his friends or a brother or something like that.  He was dressed in his 
uniform, and walked right by another one of the prick 1stLt instructors, 
without saluting.  The same questions were asked by the instructor, to which 
the 2ndLt responded, "Weapons Company, 2/8.  What's it to you?"  This time, 
however, the 1stLt understood his position and immediately warmed, and began 
asking the 'crusty' 2ndLt what it had been like landing on Grenada and 
Bieruit.

But I found that most 2ndLts quickly warmed to the role of Platoon Commander 
and lost that prickly exterior, especially once they got into the fleet.  
YMMV!

Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:08:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:08:55 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Miltary_?=
 stories
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1b474$32ff9060$d96f893e@fabian>
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>
 <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
 <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:02 AM 2/13/02 +0000, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net>
>
> > There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
> > for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
> > Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)
>
>I don't see why not. My dad was in the Queen's Dragoon Guards, QDG for
>short, unofficially known as the Queen's Dancing Girls. I'm sure other
>regiments had equally informal monikers.

John was being as usual, a bit silly.

While I don't recall putting any specific derogatory terms for the Army in 
GF, there has to be a few.  Probably based on the on the local Unified 
Army's location and known quirks.

I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of 
Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The Unified 
Army of Morons"?

Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be 
common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson 
mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:11:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:11:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071028.009ea8f0@mindspring.com>

At 12:14 AM 2/13/02 +0000, you wrote:
>I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain 
>the concept to me?

Simply put, you grab a world in one of the published sources, lay a claim 
on it, then detail the hell out of it.  Once you are done, you post your 
work here, or on Downport for all to enjoy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:11:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:11:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <B88F590E.2535C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071127.02578d90@mail.verizon.net>

Yeah, that's what that "special" glove is made for. :-D

At 11:43 PM 2/12/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 2/12/02 10:36 PM, Charles McKnight at res0i3sf@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these
> > years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls
> > off.........  ;-)
> >
>
>Unless you've lost the pin.  Then you've got a friend for life.
>
>--
>When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>--
>Tod L Glenn
>webmaster@travellercentral.com
>http://www.travellercentral.com
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com
>http://www.solsec.org


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:40:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:__Miltary_s?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?tories?=
In-Reply-To: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEIMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I believe that it IS an offence over here (UK) to be drunk in charge of a
bicycle on the public highway.  I'm also reasonably certain that speeding on
a bicycle is an offence as well.

This seems to be an artifact of some strange wordings in law; e.g. Being
drunk in charge of a _Vehicle_ on a _public_ highway.  ISTR that someone has
been successfully convicted of driving a foot scooter whilst drunk.

Another weird one whilst I'm on the subject is that in the UK motorcycles
are classed for tax purposes as bicycles, and that this seems to be the
reason you can be done for drunk in charge of a bicycle etc.  (also causing
confusion when you get a tax disk for your 750cc bicycle)

ObTrav 1: Law skill may be the ability to figure out that a law that does
not seem to affect your air raft when you read it, does because it is
classed as a vehicle and the airspace above towns are classed as public
highways :)

ObTrav 2 : Are starships/spaceships covered by some vehicle laws when
operating in atmosphere?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert A. Uhl
> Sent: 12 February 2002 11:35
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
> >
> > Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> > know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> > convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> > and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> > me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.
>
> I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
> make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
> will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
> certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
> more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
> more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:20:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:20:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>

At 10:40 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >It certainly doesn't make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the 
> damage a driver
> >will.

OK, I have to address this.

In 1998, a SuperShuttle driving through San Francisco's finacial distrcit 
struck and killed a bike messanger who had run a red light.  The van was 
doing the speed limit, the bike was, according to witnesses going faster 
than the cars around him.

The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the 
van sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We 
settled out of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police 
report clearing placing the blame on the bicyclist.

All in all, this incident cost us a veteran driver and several million 
dollars in fees, settlements, and raised insurance rates.  That, and the 
bashed in grill on the van.

Yes, the other guy died, but it was his stupidity that did him in.  We did 
everything right, and nearly had to lay people off.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:58:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:58:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Military___stories?=
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1b4a7$5d3cfa60$0f01a8c0@terry>

> I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of
> Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The
> Unified Army of Morons"?
> 
> Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be
> common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson
> mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".

Knowing the military love of naming things, Infantry: Slow moving,
self-propelled, pop up targets.

Terry 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:03:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:03:36 -0000
Subject: [TML] =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Derogatory_terms_Was:__Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEINCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Considering how long some slangterms have already survived in the armed
forces (and elsewhere) I would imagine they arestill in use.  Along with the
interservice rivalries.  IMTU marines are Bootnecks, Pilots tend to be
Brycreem boys etc. (Though this is partly a Metagame artifact, allowing my
players to more readily identify with the universe)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alan spik
> Sent: 13 February 2002 04:37

> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I
> don't know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are
> space navy sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:39:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:39:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:40 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >It certainly doesn't make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the 
> > damage a driver
> > >will.
> 
> OK, I have to address this.
> 
> In 1998, a SuperShuttle driving through San Francisco's finacial distrcit 
> struck and killed a bike messanger who had run a red light.  The van was 
> doing the speed limit, the bike was, according to witnesses going faster 
> than the cars around him.
> 
> The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
> veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
> back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the 
> van sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We 
> settled out of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police 
> report clearing placing the blame on the bicyclist.
> 
> All in all, this incident cost us a veteran driver and several million 
> dollars in fees, settlements, and raised insurance rates.  That, and the 
> bashed in grill on the van.
> 
> Yes, the other guy died, but it was his stupidity that did him in.  We did 
> everything right, and nearly had to lay people off.

I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
before my train left.

Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
license.  We need to stop treating bicyclists like innocent little kids
who are always in the right because a bicycle is NOT a child's toy and
people get killed on them and can also cause deaths on them.  The fact
that bikes are good for the environment should not give bicyclists a
holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the right to do whatever
they want in the street. 

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Trasler)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:50:25 -0600
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV35KXGA7zyWR4Atg200000f65@hotmail.com>

Note that enlisted ranks in the British Army vary from regiment to regiment,
the Household Cavalry and the Royal Artillery being the two most obvious
departures from the norm.


> I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill
> are different in the armies. For example.
>
> Position US Commonwealth
> Rifleman: >Corporal Private
> Squad Cdr Sergeant Corporal
> Platoon Sgt Staff Sgt Sergeant
> CSM 1st Sergeant WO2 (CSM)
> Platoon Cdr Lieutenant Lieutenant-Captain
> Company Cdr Captain Major
> Battalion Cdr Major Lt. Colonel
>
> In all cases, the person at a given rank would have had longer service in
> the commonwealth model, and would be of a lower rank.
>
> A friend of a friend (a WO2) was attached to the US army, and was given
the
> privileges of his US equivalents rank, a Brigadier General, but that was a
> specialised field.
>
> Bryn
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F82jmMPqngL6wxvw0ID0000230d@hotmail.com>

Kelly St.Clair <kellys@efn.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500, "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> >Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
> > >but give us the dough.
> >
> >College towns usually feel the same way about their student
> >populations.
>
>(as a former college student, and current
>resident of the same college town)

Same here...I can look out the window of my office at
the university where I work and see the campus of the
university where I got my 4-year degree.

>[In all fairness] to the transient populations in
>question...<snip>
>After a few years of dealing with overgrown children who are
>without  supervision (parental and/or military) for the first
>time in their lives, noisily experimenting with sex, drugs,
>vehicles and property damage in the usual combinations, even
>the most even-tempered policeman or bartender can find his
>patience and goodwill toward his fellow man sorely tested.

Your description of college students would apply pretty well
to many members of the armed forces, especially those who have
recently enlisted - and for exactly the same reasons.  Young
military men have been experimenting with sex, drugs and
property damage for millenia, long before there even was such
a thing as a college student.

Only a tiny percentage of the thousands of college students
in my town cause any trouble.  I'm sure the same could be
said of the soldiers at any military base, unless the
military in question has noxious cultural defects - like
every unit being the personal cadre of a bandit chief in
uniform, for example.

Obtrav: Cultural clashes between militaries.

One culture might see the military as the proper way to take
young adults and mold them into mature adults, so has short
terms of service, a large ex-military population, and may look
at people still in uniform as somewhat unfinished.  People
who have never been in uniform might be seen as some kind of
perpetual child, never having gone through the essential
(to this culture) "character building" of military service,
but people who elect to stay in uniform might be seen as
oddities as well.

Another culture may view military service mainly as a career
for the "military minded", who are all expected to stay in the
military for the majority of their adult lives.  The military
culture might become quite isolated from the civilian culture,
relying on hereditary recruitment and strong traditions.

The two cultures could exist in the same military.  Imagine
a culture where officers are all from an aristocracy, and
they'll never be taken seriously unless they've served (even
just for show) with a regiment.  The rank-and-file might see
military service as a temporary job that kids get while they're
still trying to find themselves, or that people get drafted
into if they haven't the money, skills or connections to
avoid it.  The NCO's might be the ones who keep the traditions
of this military, arranging for the "right people" (their
sons, daughters, or others of the "right mind") to pass through
enlisted ranks into NCO status quickly.  Mix and match to taste.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:55:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:55:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C6AA892.8080500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Shane Slamet wrote:

> 
> Bummer...
> I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
> when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
> the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
> bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).

See, they're protecting you. You sould have gotten the fold-up and punt 
you out of bed bed, the high speed treadmill to walk your dog on and 
Talkie Toaster.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 18:10:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:10:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents...)
Message-ID: <F261pCxlICSsiWdBdsn0000cd7a@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>
>      "Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
>*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors allow a ship
>to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps less than her maximum 
>jump
>rating - meaning, of course, that the default in CT once was that all fuel
>gets burned.  I don't have a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2,
>but I wouldn't be surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as
>well."
>
>
>Mr. Smith,
>
>I remember them from HG1 also.  My ancient synapses may be
>playing tricks on me but are there any costs for jump
>governors listed?  Any tonnage requirements perhaps?  Any tables
>so you can purchase and install them in your designs?  IIRC,
>there were not.

Sorry I took a while to answer - my copy of HG1 was on an
attic shelf.

p32, HG 1st edition, has rules for Jump Governors.  They
cost 300,000Cr, take up one ton of space, and are available
at TL10 and up.

They are to be installed in Book 2 ships, as the military
drives available in Book 5 have jump governors installed
as standard.

>If you can't choose whether or not to "buy" and "install" the
>device, the device is not an option, it is part of the standard equipment, 
>like reverse in a automobile transmission.

It looks like Jump Governors were not initially part of
standard equipment, the first edition of Book 5 (High Guard)
took the first steps toward making the governors standard
equipment, later editions completed the process.  Then DGP's
MT work went back the other way.

>Jump governors are a part of the OTU's standard jump drive
>"package",  along with zucchai(?) crystals and hull grids.

Hmmm...I thought hull grids were an unusual artifact of
DGP's work, and not completely canonized. ;-)

One thing about a "No Jump Governors" universe - it might
tend to specialize starships a bit more.  If your fleet
is TL13, operating in a region of space where jump-2 is
pretty good, you might build your fleet with jump-2
drives; jump-4 drives in this environment would mean that
jumping in and jumping out without refueling would require
a prohibitive 80% of your hull to be fuel.  The guy who built
jump-4 drives anyway would potentially have twice the strategic
mobility, but would have a much harder time retreating from any
of his bad decisions.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:05:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:05:01 EST
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <148.9762bcc.299c12dd@aol.com>

In a message dated 13/02/02 04:50:51 GMT Standard Time, 
babyduck@mindspring.com writes:


> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't 
> know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy 
> sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Well space navy sailors who work in a zero-g environment are going to be 
floaters...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:19:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <20020213191901.4494.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
a few references to words and their translations.  If
anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
as well.  If you can send it off the list as I don't
know that the raw data and discussion would be good
for bandwidth.  I have some ideas and I'm trying to
formulate them into something presentable, but I don't
want to redo work that has already been done.

Thanks

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:38:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:38:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #156
In-Reply-To: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213192252.02c03750@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>


>Note that enlisted ranks in the British Army vary from regiment to regiment,
>the Household Cavalry and the Royal Artillery being the two most obvious
>departures from the norm.

True, I'm in the Liverpool Irish, an RA troop (once 3x Infantry 
Battalions), so we address our Privates as Gunners, our Corporals as 
Bombardiers (which abbreviates as Bdr, causing a lot of problems, such as 
the case of the young Bdr coming back from Belieze to find that someone had 
read Bdr as Brigadier and a brass band et al. was waiting for him).

Several Infantry Regiments use different titles for Privates, for example:

Fusilier (Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Royal Highland Fusiliers and Royal 
Welch Fusiliers)
Ranger (Royal Irish)
Highlander (The Highlanders (Queens Own and Gordons), Argyll and Sutherland 
Highlanders, Black Watch)
Kingsman (Kings Regiment)
Guardsman (All Guards Regiments)
Rifleman (Royal Greenjackets and Royal Gurkha Rifles)
Paratrooper (Parachute Regiment)

and some Corps have different titles:

Trooper (Cavalry, Royal Marines and SAS)
Air Trooper (AAC)
Craftsman (REME)

etc.

Back On Topic, what's the correct term of address for an Imperial Marine?

Bryn



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:34:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Language:  VARGR
References: <20020213191901.4494.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6ABFE1.3418B817@sitraka.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
> a few references to words and their translations.  If
> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
> as well.  

At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?

That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.

Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:53:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:53:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> license.

Agreed that cyclists should obey the laws--but I do believe that they
should be different for cars, motorcycles and bicycles.  Cars take a
relatively long time to slow down, compared to bikes and motorbikes.
And I'm against licensing, but I'm against car licensing too, at least
in principle.

Agreed too that bicyclists, unlike pedestrians, are not always in the
right.

> The fact that bikes are good for the environment should not give
> bicyclists a holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the
> right to do whatever they want in the street.

This may also be a cultural thing.  In semi-rural Texas no-one gives a
damn about how environmentally friendly you are--at least where I was.
You give a damn about how big their trucks and cars are.  Bicyclists
definitely do not have the attitude they apparently do in places like
San Francisco.  At least not for long, anyway.

But then, I was only riding a bicycle because I couldn't afford a car.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, if nature abhors a vacuum, she must really have it in for your
brain.                                           --Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.1397.40E743@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 7:20, Douglas Berry wrote:

> The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
> veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
> back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the van
> sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We settled out
> of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police report clearing
> placing the blame on the bicyclist.

While there is a place for litigation this is taking litigiousness too far, 
IMO. I suppose the family had little enough money it wasn't worth the cost of 
sueing them for casts or anything, either.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Military___stories?=
In-Reply-To: <000201c1b4a7$5d3cfa60$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.16373.40E761@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 9:58, tmixon wrote:

> > I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of
> > Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The
> > Unified Army of Morons"?
> > 
> > Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be
> > common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson
> > mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".
> 
> Knowing the military love of naming things, Infantry: Slow moving,
> self-propelled, pop up targets.

That would be: Targets, pop up, slow movement, self propelled.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] RE: [TML] Re: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary s	tories
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEIMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.28739.40E752@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 15:40, Peter Scarrott wrote:

> I believe that it IS an offence over here (UK) to be drunk in charge of a
> bicycle on the public highway.  I'm also reasonably certain that speeding on a
> bicycle is an offence as well.

In NZ the latter is most certainly an offence, as a friend of mine found out 
when caught doing 100 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. (He was slip-streaming a truck, 
also speeding). As for the former, I'm pretty sure that is also an offence, 
though I don't know anyone who's been done for it.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:30:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] Derogatory Terms
References: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c1b4cd$6c2bf500$3265a8c0@pbncomputer>


According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer to ground personnel as
"Speed bumps".

I'm not sure whether I'm responsible for that, or not.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, QuikLink Interactive
Author: Behind the Throne, The Eye of Glory

>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:17:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:17:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 8:39, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
> law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
> because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
> cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
> even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
> work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
> bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
> before my train left.

Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their 
way is asking for it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:31:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:31:43 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>



"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> > driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> > license.
> 
> Agreed that cyclists should obey the laws--but I do believe that they
> should be different for cars, motorcycles and bicycles.  Cars take a
> relatively long time to slow down, compared to bikes and motorbikes.
> And I'm against licensing, but I'm against car licensing too, at least
> in principle.

I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:

M * V^2 = R, where

M=Mass
V=Velocity
R=Right-of-way

<<snip>>
> 
> This may also be a cultural thing.  In semi-rural Texas no-one gives a
> damn about how environmentally friendly you are--at least where I was.
> You give a damn about how big their trucks and cars are.  Bicyclists
> definitely do not have the attitude they apparently do in places like
> San Francisco.  At least not for long, anyway.
> 
It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 21:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:42:33 -0000
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
In-Reply-To: <000301c1b46c$6ea59ea0$d96f893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCOELJDKAA.andy@exeus.com>

> This looks clever on the face of it, but it is on the exact same level as
> the maths that demonstrate that it is possible to derive the number 666
> from almost any name or its initials, thereby 'proving' that person X is
> the spawn of the devil. Numerology doesn't really prove anything, and it
> would be more remarkable if you *couldn't* derive these numbers from
> established units.

I'd disagree. You are confusing numerology with archaeology, which are
different things. You might as well compare chalk and cheese.

Numerology is a hokum new age thing as defined by Cheiro (sp?) and others -
it is founded in the Qabbalah (sp? - I'm having a bad night !) and similar
teachings and has no relationship AFAIK to the more rational, serious and
scientific subject of archaeology, nor does it have any real solid
foundation or meaning apart from the mystical interpretation.

I can find a consistent method to extract the megalithic yard from various
simple and repeatable measurements of stone circles, tumuli et al. (Take a
close look at the surveys of the stone circles of the UK and Europe in
general and you will find that they all are based on a standardised unit).
You cannot however demonstrate a _consistent_ method to get 666 from
people's names or initials - what works for one person won't work for
another unless you pull some kind of mathematical sleight of hand somewhere.
It will only work on one or a few cases at best, whereas the MY works for
_many_ cases.

I note that archaeologists are split over the existence of the Megalithic
Yard, and as a result it is not archaeological "canon" as such, nor does
this calculation proove that the MY existed, of course, but it does form
part of a growing, substantial body of evidence which is hard to deny.

Now, can we get back to Traveller, please ?

Regards

Andy Brick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 21:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:32:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6ADB64.E9A11BA0@sympatico.ca>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2002, at 8:39, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

snip

> > before my train left.
>
> Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their
> way is asking for it.

No matter where I play a Pedestrian, Cyclist, Blader, or Motorist I know that
once I leave the curb I am in play and behave accordingly.  Except in areas of
Toronto and Montreal, where from the city limits in you are potentially a speed
bump waiting for a place to happen.

Michael


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:01:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213220323.DADR319.dorsey@link>

Exactly.  I'm on the opposite coast and a devoted cyclist, so in some ways
I'm seeing the issue from the opposite side to the TMLers who just posted
from SF on this.  I read and publish in all the same cycling magazines,
newsgroups, etc. that those San Francisco cyclists read and publish in.
San Francisco seems to have a very unique subculture within the bicycling
subculture!  From my vantage, they come off as everything they've just been
accused of here on the TML.  Extreme, arrogant, impractical, rude, and
dangerous.  Or at least, there's a thousand or so very active and vocal
ones who do.  My guess is that the average regular cyclist in the Bay Area
is much more reasonable.  You can't find another area within the US that is
comparable to SF for extreme "cycling advocates", however.

ObTrav:  Just because Baedekker's describes Mora's major cities a certain
way, do NOT expect each of its cities to have the same culture and
attitudes, even within mostly homogenous cultural regions on Mora there
will sometimes be very big differences.  Refereeing this sort of thing well
will give players a realistic feel of travelling through a vast and varied
universe.

--Laning
Bicycling on a country road on a warm, sunny day without seeing a single
car for hours is heaven touching upon earth.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 08:39:00 -0800 (PST), Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> typed:
>I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
>law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
>because they don't drive cars.  <<<SNIP>>>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:06:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:06:49 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net> <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>
Message-ID: <006e01c1b4da$bc46a0a0$6501a8c0@home.com>

1st rule of safe road biking: Know and obey *all* traffic laws.
2nd rule of safe road biking: Expect no auto driver to know or obey *any*
traffic laws.

> I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
> M * V^2 = R, where
>
> M=Mass
> V=Velocity
> R=Right-of-way

Having been hit by a car last year while on my road bike, I can attest that
this principal is, indeed, true.

> It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
> same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

It might also be pointed out that there are good cyclists and bad cyclists,
just like there are good drivers and bad drivers. Inconsiderate, unsafe
cyclists are a scourge on the road, as are inconsiderate, unsafe car
drivers.

Alas for us good cyclists, we get all busted up or killed when we get hit by
a bad driver. The reverse is not usually the case.

ObTrav: Bikes are a great way to get around in a huge variety of situations.
What kind of law level restrictions might be placed on the use of bikes on
various worlds?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:16:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:16:30 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mysterious force in space
References: <20020213035242.XFDN319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <014501c1b4dc$167bc720$6501a8c0@home.com>

> The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels

Pioneer's thruster plates have reached the 1000-diameter limit and it's
simply gravity pulling it back.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:27:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:27:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <20020213220323.DADR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6AE85D.2C2B4318@sitraka.com>

Laning wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Just because Baedekker's describes Mora's major cities a certain
> way, do NOT expect each of its cities to have the same culture and
> attitudes, even within mostly homogenous cultural regions on Mora there
> will sometimes be very big differences.  Refereeing this sort of thing well
> will give players a realistic feel of travelling through a vast and varied
> universe.

Right. This would be akin to judging all of NY state based on 
New York city or all of CA based on [San Francisco|Los Angles
|Oakland|Berkley|Palo Alto]. Nothing could be further from the
truth.

Recruit 1: Y'a know Frank, you're really not an stuck-up asshole at all...
Recruit 2: What? Why would I be?
Recruit 1: Well, you being from "Regina" and all...
Recruit 2: Oh, no, that's only people from the highport. And those
           clothes they wear... woah. No explosive decompressions
           in over a century and they still act like they're on EVA.
           Wierdos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:43:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AEBF9.3B27D1F9@attbi.com>



Gerry Harris wrote:

> Just to add to the confusion, in the USN, First Lieutenant is a title
> rather than a rank, and, at least aboard the ship I served on, was held
> by a Lieutenant Commander.

Yep, it's a throw back to the age of sail when there where only two
real officers ranks, Captain and his Lieutenants. the first being in
charge of the Bosun and his mates, i.e. the crew that tended the sails
and manned the helm, rang out the watch etc.. etc...
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:05:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:05:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane> <3C6AA892.8080500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c1b4e2$fcaa1ca0$9307b286@Shane>

Bruce Johnson revealed:
> See, they're protecting you. You sould have gotten the fold-up and punt
> you out of bed bed, the high speed treadmill to walk your dog on and
> Talkie Toaster.

Yeah, good point.  Although I do have a soft spot for Talkie Toaster.

Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a good Trav
scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients artifacts?  I'm
wanting to give my players something to puzzle over, and maybe actually
throw one or two useful items in there, but mostly elicit frustrated cries
of "Does this thing actually have a use?!".  I'm sure there's a published
adventure out there somewhere which fits the bill.
 _____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- So you're a waffle man!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:04:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:04:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
Message-ID: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>

When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer 
Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.

I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background 
info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of 
this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little 
outside my realm of knowledge. 

To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:51:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
References: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AFC12.63230D0@premier.net>



SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:
> 
> When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer
> Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
> 
> I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background
> info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of
> this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little
> outside my realm of knowledge.

Spectral class refers to the spectrum of the system's star(s).  For
instance, Sol (our big heat tab in the sky here on Terra) has a spectral
class of G2. [GT:FI page 46, LBB6 pages 22-23]

Eccentricity describes how much a body's orbit deviates from a circle.
[GT:FI page 48, not found in LBB6]
> 
> To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you

That's your call.  I preferred using GT:FI for my (not-yet-posted)
Landgrab, but LBB6 is a perfectly valid choice.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:15:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B0196.BEA39AD2@mindspring.com>

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! The point of my original story was
that I probably wouldn't have gotten a ticket if I'd been a long haired pinko
type, instead of a fine upstanding member of the armed services. We don't have
that kind of problem here as we generally run over bicyclists and pedestrians.

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
> law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
> because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
> cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
> even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
> work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
> bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
> before my train left.
>
> Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> license.  We need to stop treating bicyclists like innocent little kids
> who are always in the right because a bicycle is NOT a child's toy and
> people get killed on them and can also cause deaths on them.  The fact
> that bikes are good for the environment should not give bicyclists a
> holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the right to do whatever
> they want in the street.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:27:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net> <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B047E.ACC9ED25@mindspring.com>

ROFLOL keyboard kill!

John Groth wrote:


> I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
> M * V^2 = R, where
>
> M=Mass
> V=Velocity
> R=Right-of-way

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:27:46 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #155
Message-ID: <123.bbd18e0.299c5e82@aol.com>

>      How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
>  Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
>  grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
>  lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use 
>  them?

The village I grew up in sat atop a natural gas field. As late as the 1960s, 
I had a friend who lived in a farmhouse outside town that was heated by 
natural gas from a well in the backyard, and his was not the only one. They 
had all played out by the 1970s, but the house I grew up in had pipes in the 
walls for gaslights. Frank' Chadwick's house actually had a gaslight fixture 
in his kitchen -- it was live.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:34:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:34:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
References: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B061B.F54EF408@mindspring.com>

Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to stay
inside the lines.

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:

> When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer
> Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
>
> I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background
> info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of
> this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little
> outside my realm of knowledge.
>
> To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:29  0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>

I know this is going to sound a little silly but...

I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:53:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:53:57 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <F263ecm9t0CI76rOJhK00018214@hotmail.com>

From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

     "ObTrav: Bikes are a great way to get around in a huge variety of 
situations.  What kind of law level restrictions might be placed on the use 
of bikes on various worlds?"


Mr. Dietrich,

     In one of the Drake/Stirling co-authored, military, sci-fi books (I 
forget which one) a society's slaves were allowed to own huge bicycles to 
commute with.  These machines required 4 or 6 people to pedal them, thus 
allowing groups of slaves to travel to work while at the same denying them 
any personal mobility.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:58:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:58:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] New Force
Message-ID: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>

From: "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au>

     "Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a 
good Trav scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients 
artifacts?"


Mr. Slamet,

     There's a DGP Four Knights adventure set on Antiquity.  While DGP's 
cinematic nugget format (blecch) might not be your cuppa, you could mine the 
material for a nice selection of odd Ancients artifacts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:56:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:56:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
 <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330108b890b9f5372a@[198.123.22.181]>

At 9:17 AM +1300 2/14/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their
>way is asking for it.

[OK, I typicaly ride my bike in the Palo Alto to Mountain View area, 
this is between San Fran and San Jose, but closer to San Jose]

There are problems with subgroups of all the types if vehicle drivers 
who ignore laws when then they think they can get away with it.  I've 
had problems with cars violating my right of way when I'm on a bike. 
Ironically, I've had people in cars yell at me for doing what I was 
legally supposed to (being in the left turn lane to make a left 
turn), mostly because I was in their way and that was all they cared 
about.

I do think that there is a point to be made about how the laws don't 
take bicycles in to account (at least in any realistic way).  I've 
never been to Critical Mass so I can't speak for how obnoxious they 
may or may not be, but I do think that increasing awareness of 
bicycles wouldn't hurt.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:07:28 +0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <F50XdIJ55EIZZ2yX3gv0001814c@hotmail.com>

From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>

     "I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a 
ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
plot uses for said monkey."


Mr. Whincup,

     Monkeys are nasty, filthy, noisy, dangerous animals, just like their 
human cousins.  Plot uses for them should be readily apparent, the chief 
being "How to we get rid of this *@$*&!@$ monkey!!??!!".
     I should think that their well known propensity for flinging feces 
would not make them welcome to any passengers, especially high passage 
types.  Thievery by the monkey could spark any number of plots.  Having 
people bitten or injury by said monkey is another very plausible plot 
driver.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:49:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:49:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com>



Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 
> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

A ship's monkey... Damn if that ain't a Traveller standard. Every game I
have
been in has had a Beecker in it.

The last one came with it's own cred card, Don't ask me why.

Well, they can get in to things, fling shit at passengers and crew
members they
don't like. Get lost, pick up strange things in bars. Pull the hard vacc
alarm 
because it like the flavor of kibble in it's carrier cases feeder.
etc... etc...

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:57:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:57:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020213.175801.-150485.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

I have a thought, I saw this on TV many years ago.

"Murder in the Rue Morgue (sp)."
Nice story for mercenary work.

Dock or land at some off-the-wall dirtball place. You want revenge
against some rotten NPC's who gave you a bum deal. Each night send in
your Ape to kill off a NPC, have it return each night. Let your PC's
attempt to solve the mystery as one by one NPC's disappear

Every day your monkey is safe and sound in its cage, no one will know..

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:29  0000 "Andrew Whincup"
<shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:
> <snip> 
> I was 
> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's 
> monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
> plot uses for said monkey.
> 
<snip>

You could also try a planet of the Apes style time twist, and your
monkey's now a god.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:08:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020213210821.00e4d688@buffnet.net>

Don't forget fleas and other alien versions of fleas...  ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:22:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <b8.22c9e3e6.299c7966@aol.com>

CHam writes:

>Well space navy sailors who work in a zero-g environment are going to be
>floaters...
>

Making the Pilots and Marines on the assault boats "sinkers?"

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:29:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:29:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F122NbtFqFBjz30ef8r000174e6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213211719.01c5b008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:36 PM 2/13/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
>     "Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in
>the 50's and 60's still in use.  The local telecos are scrambling to add 
>circuits above and beyond what their projections for population increase 
>called for."
>     "I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more
>often than for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits."
>Mr. Urbin,
>     Superb example sir!  "Industrial inertia" at it's finest.  Because 
> we've sunk so much capital into a now obsolescent, but still servicable, 
> system we will still try to work with it rather than replace it.  The 
> local telecos will continue to repair, replace, and manufacture equipment 
> from the 50's or 60's and try to shoehorn 90's and 00's equipment into 
> the mix.
>There are tons and tons of "old" infrastructure is still around, so why 
>not try and continue to use it?
>     One of the many Traveller examples of this would be the backwater 
> world in the Chamax Double Adventure.  That planet is at a ~1940s level 
> of technology and doesn't see a lot of off-world trade (the PCs get stuck 
> there for months without any other starships making orbit), so most of 
> what the planet has they make for themselves.
>     The major hi-tech artifact on world, other than the PCs' ship, is a 
> automated fusion power plant tucked away along the shore of a sleepy 
> peninsular.  This plant is a "gift from the Emperor".  Apparently some 
> heavy engineering branch of the IISS or IN or some civilian contractors 
> arrived, installed it, and left.
>     This 57th century goodie happily purrs along and pumps lots of MWs 
> into a 1940's distribution net!  The main trunk line between plant and 
> popualtion centers may be a buried, 57th century, superconducting cable, 
> but the juice would still flow into factories, offices, and homes via 
> locally manufactured distribution net.  After all, the folks installing 
> the Emperor's gift wouldn't and couldn't have rewired the entire planet!
>     Pa Whipsnade had a summer job prior to visiting Korea during the 
> shooting season.  He worked in an electrical substation, fetching coffee 
> and what-not for the regular employees and watching the old-timers work 
> the substation's switches.  They did so wearing leather guantlets and 
> smocks while wielding long wooden poles.  The switches themselves were 
> housed in what he described as a concrete bunker within a normal looking 
> building.
>     I get a kick picturing the inhabitants of that low-tech world 
> switching and re-routing by hand the electrical power generated by fusing 
> hydrogen atoms.

Ahhhh yes...You can have great fun with power planets and electrical 
distribution.  I've got some insight into the process and how to muck with it.
My dad graduated from the Army Nuclear Power Program and was in power 
production for decades.  My brother works for Pure Greed & Explotation (PG&E).
Back when Freddy (the brother) was at the Hunter Point Power Planet, he had 
the modern version of Pa Whipsnade's long wooden pole.  It was a ten foot 
fiberglass pole.  They used to flip the switches out the yard.  That way if 
the switch arced, it only knock you on your ass, instead of frying you. 
Also useful when the junkies climbed the fence and tried to mug you for 
their next fix.

Take a Ship's Engineer, used to TL 13-15 power planets.  Drop him a 
'modern' (40's to 00's) power planet.  For even more fun, make it coal fired.
There is a reason for those brass tools...

Big changes in Tech Levels can play havoc.  The PC has ground car - 
2.  He's from a TL 10 planet though.  Sealed electric engine, GPS tied to 
the planet net displaying your route on the HUD, power everything.

Now give him the trusty 1970 Ford Econoline van I had as a teen.  Gas using 
V-8 with a carburetor, manual steering, manual brakes, flacky electrical 
system, and not one single microprocessor in the whole thing (my current 
vehicle, a 2002 has a couple of dozen microprocessors, as does any new car).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:48:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:51 EST
Subject: _[TML]_Derogatory_terms
Message-ID: <72.17a68a00.299c7f93@aol.com>

IIRC, Mercenary established "Pongo" as a derogatory term for ground troops.

Others that I recall are "Crusher" or "Provo" for MP

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:55:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:55:55 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Question?
Message-ID: <3C6B273B.6D8EBC54@mail.cswnet.com>

>When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you >prefer Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
><snippaged>
>To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you

I have both. What I try to do is start off with First In and then try to
make it fit Book 6. Where they differ I go with Book 6. Basically, I use
First In to "fill in the pot holes" on my landgrab road.

Those are the two big basic books. Be advised that you will be using
more than just these two books to do a great land grab.

While I haven't seen it, some of the DGP stuff might be better. Maybe
when I make my millions I'll be able to find out ;-)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:04:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:04:45 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Monkeys
Message-ID: <8.214c8c8e.299c834d@aol.com>

> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque 
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land 
> leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk 
> and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any 
thoughts 
> on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if 
anyone 
> could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

Don't monkeys have a tendency to steal small, shiney things, like keys, 
memory chips, and other vital plot macguffins?
  
>  Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You 
want 
> a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

I went to the animal fair,
The birds and the beasts were there.
The big baboon, by the light of the moon,
Was combing his auburn hair.
The monkey, he got drunk,
And stepped on the elephant's trunk,
The elephant sneezed and fell to his knees . . .


LKW

and that was the end of the monk.

I loved that song when I was a kid. My mom got sick of singing it eventually 
. . . 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:31:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020213223243.80eca1133122456eac9c64f0f5ea93ab.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
>I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk
and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone
could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
>Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want
a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

All of a sudden, the theme to the Monkey Island series start sounding in the
background...

"How credits for banana futures...?"

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

My Sale List
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
My Want List:
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:34:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:34:54 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <20020213223607.11a2e556463c4e9e81679002181e2d7b.in@keywest.kennett.net>

First, many thanks (And belated too.) for all the people who gave me
responses to how to get onto UseNet.  It was much appreciated and I am now
reading UseNet.  (Hello to Matt Clonfero and Tom Schoene in case they are
still reading TML.).

Anyway, I was just wondering if somebody could direct me to a website with
details regarding the uniforms of the U.S. Military.  All the discussion of
the military has got me interested about little details now.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

My Sale List
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
My Want List:
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:56:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB47@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> To be fair, the Geonee are a DGP thing, and as such are/were a delicate 
topic, but the attitude expressed disturbed a few of us old grognards (I 
recall the grim look on several HIWG member's faces after that seminar) and

the reality became clearly manifest as the supplements appeared: this was
not 
the same universe, or if it was then all that had come before was
worthless.

 GC<

Isn't that the same as the  "un-canon'ing" that was talked about earlier? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:55:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:55:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB43@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.

>>>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
>>>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual
NPC 
>>>massacres.<

Nope. CSI is a very good show, but I can think of three or four episodes of
Buffy that no one would be ashamed of crying during. You can't say that
about CSI, though it is a good potboiler. 

>>>The best show on TV has got to be "Farscape" (OK so it
>>>isn't "on" TV right now).  Great Traveller gleanings
>>>for many types of campaigns.  Great writing and
>>>character development.

Definitely second best and the primary inspiration/reason for my non-canon
Traveller campaign. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>> The Buffy game will use a modified 
>>>.version of the system in Witchcraft. <

Sign me up for the mailing list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:56:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB46@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
 T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways. May Ken Whitman and Courtney 
Solomon burn for eternity.<

Who are these guys and what was there contribution to T4? 

> rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before
them 
> until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

What was specifically said there?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:05:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:05:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb890e6a03160@[198.123.22.181]>

At 5:41 PM -0800 2/13/02, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
>I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite 
>esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a 
>bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't 
>know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was 
>wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's 
>monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
>plot uses for said monkey.

They aren't much use.  However, if you are stuck in human space and 
can't find a Vargr replacement for your crew, you may have no choice.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:30:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
Message-ID: <167.8caa0f2.299c974a@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
> generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to stay
> inside the lines

I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it 
gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable text 
and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:26:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:26:42 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
Message-ID: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer to ground personnel as
> "Speed bumps".
> 

While i have not followed this thread i can state that in my days in the Army 
we were refered to as Road Toads


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:43:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:43:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Accessories request
Message-ID: <3C6B408A.1EA3DBFE@mail.cswnet.com>

Backpacks, Gravpacks, and utility vests are great,
but what I really want is:

a standard issue Imperial Storm Trooper utility belt
[volume, price, and carrying capacity]

and a pair of grav powered tennis shoes [preferably Reeboks]

Lets see if the gearheaders can solve that one. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha->

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Can't we skip this garbage and go straight to the tacos?"
--the collected wisdom of Zorack

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:40:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B3FCF.2573E606@mindspring.com>

Perhaps it's really a Simp pilot ala Uplift War. Everythings fine until the monkey starts telling human jokes using a TL A voder.

Andrew Whincup wrote:

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.
>
> ---
> Shan Andy
>
> "Wagging this appendage is
> the only creative outlet I have"
>
> Salem
>
> Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
> Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
> Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:49:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:49:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214045124.FJVD319.dorsey@link>

>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:31:43 -0600
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Bicycles

>I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
>M * V^2 = R, where
>
>M=Mass
>V=Velocity
>R=Right-of-way

Good one.

<<<SNIP>>> 
>It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
>same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

Okay, that tears it.  I'm losing my sense of humor about this.  There've
been a disproportionate number of vehicular manslaughters in Texas
victimizing bicyclists.  Famous, respected, and well liked bicyclists have
been viciously swerved into with absolutely zero provocation by pick-up
truck drivers at high speeds, and died within seconds.  (Yes, it's always a
pick-up truck and/or drunk whose already lost their license in these
things.)  And the culprits have never been apprehended.  There are plenty
of witnesses to the fact that there was no provocation, but none of the
nearby Texans seem to have more than the vaguest description of the
murderers.  This sort of thing goes on everywhere once in awhile, but Texas
has more than its share.  Some people just don't like seeing bicycles on
"their" road and think it's okay to do this.  Same sort of thing happened
to me once (in Virginia), with a Cadillac driver, but I miraculously kept
from going down.  Was way too preoccupied to get his license plate, but I
can still see his face plainly nearly ten years later.  It's murder for
entertainment, and I think making casual jokes about it just contributes to
the atmosphere that makes these people think it's okay in the first place.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 05:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:15:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020213210821.00e4d688@buffnet.net>
References: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com> <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214001410.01c216d0@mail.comcast.net>

At 09:08 PM 2/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Don't forget fleas and other alien versions of fleas...  ;)

...and whatever you do, do NOT give the monkey a red shirt!  What sort of 
monkey is it?  Natural, enhanced, or what?  A chimp would have been better, 
but a monkey should be good for stealing code books and hiding them in the 
cargo hold, pushing the wrong button during space combat, jettisoning a 
cargo module - all sorts of things that you can "dare" the players to kill 
the monkey for...







From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 07:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:44:29 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEKEHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> > According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer 
> > to ground personnel as "Speed bumps".
> 
> While i have not followed this thread i can state that 
> in my days in the Army  we were refered to as Road Toads

The tankers called infantry "crunchies" over here.

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 07:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:48:26 EST
Subject: Subject: Re [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <162.8d04589.299cc5ca@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/02 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, Shan Andy 
wonders at the uses for a monkey aboardship:

   Hmmm, is it a real Earth-type plain ol' monkey, or some sort of 
Alienworld's monkey analog? Or is it some sort of Genered monkey?
   If an actual monkey, I've always heard that (and I've no idea how true it 
is), being viscious and wild, you have to kick the absolute hell out of the 
thing so it knows you're the boss. Thats sure a pretty unsavory bit of color 
right there.
   As monkeys prettymuch void themselves wherever they want, it'd be a pretty 
fair bet that none of the players will think to have the characters stock up 
on monkey-sized pampers for those extra-long (or even very short) Jumps; let 
alone actually trying to waltz the chimp into one if they _were_ brought 
along :)
   The creature'll stink, make a hell of a mess, and, like any 2yr old, get 
into absolutely _everything_! And be sure to remember that these rotten 
things, unlike 2yr olds, can _climb_ really well, too! Imagine where the 
thing could go if it got into the ventilation system; if it gets into 
anything even _remotely_ unsafe?
   Heck, maybe it _kind_ of grasps the idea of the airlock, for example..Put 
stuff in, push big button, gone! How'd the crew like to find a bunch of minor 
(or even not so minor) stuff has gone missing; over time reviews of the 
anti-hijacking equipt showing (or even one of the crew sees it first hand) 
the monkey pushing the big, idiot-proof button (you _do_ want your airlock 
controls to be really easy to use, right?) that cycles your stuff out of the 
ship somewhere halfway through subsector 235.
   It could've been trained to steal people's cigarettes as a bar gag or 
something. All the smokers aboard curse each other (or the monkey, if at all 
perceptive). Have it go on for quite some time, until some sort of vital, 
tight-spot has to be gotten to for repairs, then viola; cigerette cash! Or 
have the monkey eat them, or even smoke them itself :)
   Drop your keys down the grating between decks.
   Open the fridge, drink all your favorite spirits, then do one or more of 
the previously-mentioned annoying things while literally drunk as a monkey.
   Imagine all the fun this could cause. Kill the monkey as it acts up? 
Puh-leeez!!! What sort of cold-blooded, monkey killers are aboard that 
freighter, anyhow? Tranq darts sound much better; won't penetrate any 
delicate ship systems, and still lots of opportunity for the squirming, 
dodging monkey to twist and such to the point where the characters are 
mistakenly shooting each other.
   Maybe it has the annoying habit of jumping on people's backs and hugging 
and kissing them at inopportune moments, cuz it just absowootwee wuvs dem 
sooooo much :)
   Have it be seen several times behind the door to the fresher licking the 
hinges; or in engineering licking the lubricant from a minor leak; only to 
get startled and run away when it sees you. 
   Have it sneaking into the fresher, then into the shower while a character 
is showering so it can drink the hot water from the tub. 
   Have it rub its butt across the carpet continually and aggressively.
   Have it howl very loudly at odd times during the night.

   There's opening a can of worms for ya!
  -Ken-
   
    
   
   
   



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 11:00:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:00:08 -0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1b547$10e47e40$006e893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk
and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any
thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also
wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

And this will sound equally silly, but I have received (almost certainly
non-exclusive) permission from Ian Bell to develop and publish a
non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.
Unfortunately, lack of time prevents me from doing much of anything with
this.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 11:39:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:39:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Language:  VARGR
In-Reply-To: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <q88n6uscpsnhp919r5pvbm1nnt2621dfij@4ax.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:05:56 -0800 (PST), Ethan Henry
<ethan.henry@sitraka.com> wrote:

>Paul Walker wrote:
 
>> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
>> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
>> a few references to words and their translations.  If
>> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
>> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
>> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
>> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
>> as well.  

>At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
>story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?

There is indeed, part of the 'Gvurrdon's Story' adventure included as a
part of that module.  Complete with a significant, if restricted,
vocabulary.

>That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.

The problem with it is, however, that it feels somewhat fake; it's almost
exactly a word-by-word encoding for English.

>Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
>the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).

Either Gvegh or an earlier related language - for some reason 'Arrghoun'
sticks in my head.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 12:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:30:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEKEHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C64B1.31843.83EF08@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 20:44, Frank Pitt wrote:

> SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :
> > tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> > > According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer 
> > > to ground personnel as "Speed bumps".
> > 
> > While i have not followed this thread i can state that 
> > in my days in the Army  we were refered to as Road Toads
> 
> The tankers called infantry "crunchies" over here.

I never heard that one. We used to call them 'wankie tankie turret-
heads' said right it fits into all sorts of songs. :)
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 13:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:19:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Language: VARGR
Message-ID: <F203LSAQV6uPDVniSnR000161e6@hotmail.com>



Here is a URL VUAKEDH: AN ALTERNATE VARGR LANGUAGE
By Mike Metlay, Seth Blumberg, and Joe Heck
23 Nov 1993


http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/language/vuakedh.htm


This is what I've been using as a basis for Woof, of Pack Lika.

Greg


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Language:  VARGR
>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:39:35 -0500
>
>On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:05:56 -0800 (PST), Ethan Henry
><ethan.henry@sitraka.com> wrote:
>
> >Paul Walker wrote:
>
> >> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
> >> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
> >> a few references to words and their translations.  If
> >> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
> >> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
> >> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
> >> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
> >> as well.
>
> >At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
> >story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?
>
>There is indeed, part of the 'Gvurrdon's Story' adventure included as a
>part of that module.  Complete with a significant, if restricted,
>vocabulary.
>
> >That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.
>
>The problem with it is, however, that it feels somewhat fake; it's almost
>exactly a word-by-word encoding for English.
>
> >Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
> >the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).
>
>Either Gvegh or an earlier related language - for some reason 'Arrghoun'
>sticks in my head.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com




Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:21:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:21:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "...he had the modern version of Pa Whipsnade's long wooden pole."


Mr. Urbin,

     Pa didn't stay on the job long enough to be allowed to handle the long 
wooden pole, guild rules I guess.  He spent a good portion of his time 
polishing said poles and running buckets of beer over from the nearby ale 
house for lunch.
     My hasn't that work day changed...

     "Take a Ship's Engineer, used to TL 13-15 power planets.  Drop him a 
'modern' (40's to 00's) power planet.  For even more fun, make it
coal fired.  There is a reason for those brass tools..."

     I loved the "TL mind f*ck" as a GM.  There are lots of ways to do most 
things.  Our choices about how to do them had more to do with happenstance 
than efficiency.

     "The PC has ground car - 2.  He's from a TL 10 planet though.  Sealed 
electric engine, GPS tied to the planet net displaying your route on the 
HUD, power everything.
     Now give him the trusty 1970 Ford Econoline van I had as a teen.
Gas using V-8 with a carburetor, manual steering, manual brakes, flacky
electrical system, and not one single microprocessor in the whole thing (my 
current vehicle, a 2002 has a couple of dozen microprocessors, as does any 
new car)."

     Or make it a lineal descendent of the Stanley Steamer.  Steamers were 
better cars than the early gas buggies, it was just easier to mass produce 
the gas buggies.  Quantity beats quality ever time, just ask Tiger tank 
crewmen facing Shermans or the executives at Apple Computer.
     I had a player who was a recreational sailor and his PC had that skill 
as a bit of backstory.  His group of PCs visited a lower-tech world and 
arranged passage on the sail driven merchant craft used there.  He fully 
expected to be able to step into the breach if the GM (me) decided to get 
funky with the vessel's NPC crew.  Too bad the ship had ROTARY sails...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:30:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:30:08 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
Message-ID: <F107ryWtIIZS2TRqf6900018ec5@hotmail.com>

From: jo_grant@us.ibm.com

     "MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION..."


     Bravo!  Author!  Author!

     I don't subscribe to the Digest and, alas, missed out on the orignal 
ChiCom forklift post.  However, thanks to my experience with business 
overseas, I feel sure that this is a dead-on parody of that bit of spam.
     Is there any way the Gravlift post could be sent to the forklift 
spammers?  Returning the "favor" would be good joss.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 15:37:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:37:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
Message-ID: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>

MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION
Registered in Regina/Regina.
 
WELCOME! 

Mr. Lia Qi. 
President of the Corporation 

BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF OUR CORPORATION 

       MoonShip International Trade Corporation is registered in the 
System of Chronor, Chronor Subsector. Amount total shares stocks 
registered is MCr 3 million. We have a Branch in Regina/Regina. Mr. Walret 
Harnom Batrhett is the General Manager of the Branch. He is also Vice 
President of the MoonShip International Trade Corporation. 

      We have many years experiences in import and export business 
sectorwide. We have got solid business network including many Zhonadi 
manufacturers Zhodani Import and Export Companies, and many import & 
export companies from Imperium, Vargr Reaches, Darians, Sword Worlds, and 
Non Aligned States.

      MoonShip International Trade Corporation is the best channel for you 
to get into the Zhodani Market. That is to say you can get the products 
from the Zhodani Consulate with more competitive price with good quality 
and delivered on time. 


BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF Mr. Lia Qi 
      Mr. Lia Qi was born on 1076-119 in Jablnishoz which is a middle 
industrial world which is very famous for Ceramic Industry. He loves the 
System in which he was born and grown up and he loves his people, the 
Zhodani. He loves art, music, paintings and he had worked in Jablnishoz 
Art & Craft Factory as artist for about 4 years. He has worked in Light 
Industrial Bureau for about 6 years in Foreign Economic & Technology 
Development Office. He loves pets. He has very nice Sar-Phei and Bull 
Harrier Moonship Sar-Phei Aviary. And very nice Vilis Raptors.

      Mr. Lia Qi has been a Chief Representative of RUMI (Jewell) 
International and Batrhett Business Group (Regina) in the Zhodani 
Consulate for 4 years and up to earlier period, he was a Chief 
Representative of Universal Consignment Co., Ltd (Darrian) in the 
Consulate. He has been in the Sword Worlds. for about 2 years. He has been 
doing import and export business for about 17 years. 

      Now Mr. Lia Qi has registered his own MoonShip International Trade 
Corporation in the System of Chronor, Chronor Subsector and cooperates 
with his business partner Mr. Walret Harnom Batrhett to set up a Branch 
Co. in 34 Tank Ave. Regina/Regina. 

President Lia Qi would like to cooperate with all the businessmen from all 
over the galaxy.


BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF Mr. Walret H. Batrhett 


 Walret H. Batrhett was born in Regina/Regina on 1043-167. He is a life 
long resident of the Subsector with the exception of his time spent in the 
Imperial Navy and active duty with the Navy Reserve. 

Mr. Batrhett has a heavy background in Engineering, Science, and 
Marketing. Mr. Batrhett has several patents in the Alternate Energy field 
and has a keen interest in the energy field. Mr. Batrhett maintains a web 
site where he donates free solar plans and consulting to all who need 
assistance. He taught solar energy classes and engineering at several 
schools and colleges. He has an interstellar reputation in the solar 
energy field. Before his retirement he was the President of Pixie Solar 
Corporation and Chairmen of the board of Kinorb corporation. Mr. Batrhett 
now resides in Regina/Regina and has a wife and five grown children. 




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:50:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:50:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <F209bOzrPC4Q20fxKqY00014c8d@hotmail.com>

Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:
>1st rule of safe road biking: Know and obey *all* traffic
>laws. 2nd rule of safe road biking: Expect no auto driver
>to know or obey *any* traffic laws.

1) They cannot see you.
2) They are actively trying to kill you.

One of my brothers was taught these truths while getting
ready for his motorcycle license...his instructor called
them the two principles of Defenseless Driving.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:58:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:58:51 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <2b.228014af.299d46cb@aol.com>

Has anyone considered "building" one of these?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/12/qassam.facts/index.html

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:08:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <167.8caa0f2.299c974a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214090707.009ec470@mindspring.com>

At 11:30 PM 2/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time,
>tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
> > Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
> > generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to 
> stay
> > inside the lines
>
>I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it
>gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable text
>and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)

I suggest getting Stephan Gillet's wonderful _World Building_.  This book 
gives the basics of planetology.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:59:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:59:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20020213223607.11a2e556463c4e9e81679002181e2d7b.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 2/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Anyway, I was just wondering if somebody could direct me to a website with
>details regarding the uniforms of the U.S. Military.  All the discussion of
>the military has got me interested about little details now.

http://mav.net/wguynes/military/

As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are 
dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic 
Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts, 
to the Navy's dress whites.

http://www.marlowwhite.com/

Seems to be a good source for dress uniforms

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/bdu.htm

For the ever-loving BDU


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:05:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:05:26 +0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
Message-ID: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>

In Digest 152, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?
>_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
>and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
>thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss
>the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
>
>CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.
>

Or Channel 5, Saturday nights 2100, repeated Monday nights 2300 (UK 
"Terrestrial")*
and
UK-Living, Sunday nights 2100 (UK Digital).

*Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal, 
non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!

And as for 'Firefly', what happens if you change it to a whopping big 
starship and put Hercules in charge?  Oh, that was 'Andromeda', wasn't it?

Jeff.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee
He did softly and silently vanish away,
For the censors had decided the material was unsuitable for broadcasting 
before the watershed...

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:20:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:20:23 EST
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <e6.23211f29.299d4bd7@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time, shanhat@angelfire.com 
writes:


> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque 
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land 
> leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk 
> and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any 
> thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering 
> if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want 
> a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.
> 
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 

Have a look here for lots of information on why monkeys don't make good 
pets...

http://www.oregonprimaterescue.com/pets.html

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:24:37 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Two current events have sparked a creaky neuron or two in the 
Whipsnadian wetware and swung my short attention span towards the many 
sports and games that may be showcased in all our Traveller universes.
     The first event was the "fixing" of the figure skating competition at 
the Salt Lake "The Best Games That Money Can Bribe" Olympics.  The fact that 
such a prestigious event can be so baldly fixed(1) in such a chicanerous 
manner while the world watches makes my larcenous heart go pitter-pat.  The 
fact that the Olympics are bullsh*t and always have been bullsh*t, and the 
fact that figure skating is in no way, shape, or form a sport(2), do not 
detract from my evil glee.
     The second event actually warms the cockles of the withered Whipsnade 
pumper.  Major League Baseball is beginning spring training!  Pitchers and 
catchers report this weekend!  Woo-hoo!
     Ahhhh... sunshine and green grass, draft beer in the bleachers, Tinker 
to Evers to Chance, El Guapo, fungoes, cheese in the kitchen and a yakker 
for a kudo, the Curse of the Bambino, rally caps, chin music, "he hit the 
ball so far there should have been a stewardess on it", the seventh inning 
stretch, Morgana - the Kissing Bandit, the Whipsnadian heart can and does 
wax rhapsodic!
     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular 
Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this 
thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  The French.  What else do I need to say?

(2)  Figure Skating, because the "scoring" is entirely subjective, is NOT a 
sport.  Skaters do not race one anther or a clock.  Skaters do not score 
goals or make points via the manipulation of inaminate objects.  The actions 
of skaters are not physically measured against known standards such as 
heights or distances.  Figure skating is not a sport.  Actually, it's better 
than that.
     Figure skating is an art form.  No one goes to the ballet and then 
holds up scoring cards after the performance.  No one rates operatic divas 
or tenors.  Painters are not judged against one another.  Rather, the work 
of all these artists is judged in and of itself.  Hopefully, it is judged on 
it's own merits and not against some nebulous standard.  As an art form, 
figure skating shouldn't be held to the lesser standards of judgement that 
sports are.  The same argument can be for free-form gymnastics.
     In sports, a homerun hit in 1972 is the same as a homerun hit in 1980.  
But in gymnastics, the "10" awarded Olga Korbut in '72 is not the same as 
the "10" awarded Nadia Comaneci(sp) in '80.  As art forms, gymnastics and 
figure skating are not held to the continuity of performance that sports 
necessarily are.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:42:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8913716.25930%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 8:59 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are
> dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic
> Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts,
> to the Navy's dress whites.

Sort of back on topic.  I found this while searching for uniform pics.
Since a lot of characters see to like to wear their uniforms after getting
out.  Here's the US policy. I think I'll adopt this as the Imperium's policy
too.

Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.

Tod

Military Uniforms 

Wearing of military uniform by military retirees.
Often military retirees inquire as to when is it appropriate to wear their
military uniform. Wearing of the uniform by retirees is authorized by Title
10, U.S. Code Section 772 and governed by a DoD directive and military
service regulations.

Generally, military retirees may wear their military uniform at official
functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste dictates. Wearing
the uniform is appropriate for memorial services, weddings, funerals, balls,
patriotic or military parades, ceremonies in which any active or reserve
United States military unit is participating and functions of military
associations. 

Retirees may wear either the uniform prescribed at the time of their
retirement or of those on active duty, but the two may not be intermixed.
Restrictions on retirees wearing the uniform vary with each service. Please
refer to the service regulation for guidance. In general, retirees are
prohibited from wearing their military uniform in connections with personal
enterprises, business activities, or while attending or participating in, a
demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal
or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues. In
addition, retirees residing in or visiting a foreign country may not wear
their military uniform except when attending, by formal invitation,
ceremonies or social functions at which wearing of the uniform is required
by the terms of the invitation, or by the regulations or customs of the
country.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:40:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:40:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8913676.25924%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 8:59 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are
> dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic
> Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts,
> to the Navy's dress whites.

It goes beyond that.  There are even more formal uniforms that are only
rarely used. Mess dress and such.  Something you're only likely to see at an
embassy ball or other very formal occasion.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:27:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Playtesters wanted
Message-ID: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
        I'm looking for 2-3 playtesters for an on-line TCS-like Traveller 
ship-combat game.  This initial alpha test is just to ensure that it is 
stable enough for a wider run beta test. It should take no more than 2-3 
hours spread over 4-5 days. Drop me a line directly by e-mail 
(jo_grant@us.ibm.com) if you are interested.
                Cheers,
                        Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:36:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:36:39 PST
Subject: [TML] (fwd) Properties of diamond
In-Reply-To: <ofrm6u4scu708rk4jf4kdg8nqbnh2tl9kr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20214.093639.4E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

http://www.kobelco.co.jp/showroom/np0802e/np08022e.htm

I mention this because the high temp characteristics and the UV
wavelength properties would seem to make diamond based laser diodes a
candidate for some sorts of laser weapons. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:56:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:56:32 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F143lEQQFP9uINO2xZi0000ab17@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "Has anyone considered "building" one of these?"


Sir,

     Pretty primitive considering.  I'm surprised the PLA and all the other 
wackos in the area haven't been able to come up any better homebrew weapons. 
  They seem to be fixated on whatever old Soviet Bloc weapons they can get 
their hands on, perhaps because they're better smugglers than tinkerers?
     The Soviets fielded a nice version of this called the katyusha (or 
katuysha, I've seen it spelled both ways) during WW2.  It was a little over 
1m long, either 120mm or 130mm, and had a range of ~5km.  They were easy 
enough for even Soviet industry to make in mass quantities and simple enough 
for even Soviet quality control methods to ensure that they'd work.  The 
rockets were launched in groups of 48(?) from rails on the back of heavy 
Ford, Lend Lease truck.
     The Nazis called them "Stalin's Organ" because of the noise they made.  
A few trucks could lay down quite a nice barrage of HE on any chosen 
position.  IIRC, reloading time was pretty quick too,  fast enough for a 
battalion of "Organs" to get off another volley before Nazi counter-battery 
fire made their position too hot.
     The Nazis hated the damn things (fine by me) and developed their own 
Nebelwerfer(sp) system in response.
     Currently, the fruitcakes along Isreal's northern border occasionally 
lob a modern day katyusha over the border.  They get their rockets from 
Syria mostly and "unofficially" of course.
     Sooner or later these boobs will figure out the correct employment 
doctrine for these rockets and flatten a settlement or two.  Rather than 
send them off in dribs and drabs, wait until you've got 40 or 50 of the 
wretched things and then have a launching party.  They don't even need to 
work that out for themselves, all they need to do is be able to read 
history.
     Guess we're lucky they're mostly illiterate, huh?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:16:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6BFEFC.CDA2B27C@sitraka.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
>      In sports, a homerun hit in 1972 is the same as a homerun hit in 1980.
> But in gymnastics, the "10" awarded Olga Korbut in '72 is not the same as
> the "10" awarded Nadia Comaneci(sp) in '80.  As art forms, gymnastics and
> figure skating are not held to the continuity of performance that sports
> necessarily are.

Yes, the topic of much discussion up here as of late...

I decided that judged sports should only be allowed into the olympics
iff the judges can and are selected from the audience at random.
These "professional" judges are only slightly better than "professional"
mobsters.

Of course, there was another view in the San Jose paper... there are 
only two winter Olympic sports with direct, opposed compeition. The
rest of the sports are just watching really buff people do the same
thing over and over and over.

The solution to the boredom? Make every sport directly competitive.
Head to head Super-G. Team Snowboarding. With a big metal ball.
And motorcycles...

Anyone gone to see ther remake of Rollerball yet?

<evil grin>

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:19:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:19:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214101742.009feb40@mindspring.com>

At 05:24 PM 2/14/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular 
> Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this 
> thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!

Well, rollerball is still the most popular sport in Lunion Subsector; 
eclipsing the Grav Ball Professional Circuit by a wide margin.  The 
mag-sail racing tour is also widely watched.

 >(2) Figure Skating, because the "scoring" is entirely subjective, is NOT 
a sport. Skaters do not race one anther or a clock. Skaters do not >score 
goals or make points via the manipulation of inaminate objects. The actions 
of skaters are not physically measured against known >standards such as 
heights or distances. Figure skating is not a sport. Actually, it's better 
than that

Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both the 
types and execution of certain moves.  It doesn't matter if you are the 
most artistic skater in the world; because if you fall, or turn a triple 
into a double, or step out of a landing, you will lose points.  This is why 
the bar keeps being raised.  A few years ago, the quad was the undreamable 
dream, now it almost required to medal.  And even a few of the women are 
beginning to land them in practise!

(Go Giants!)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:16:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:16:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <B8913716.25930%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214101218.009ec3b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:42 AM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.

In my view, the Imperium is pretty relaxed about retired military personel 
using their ranks or wearing uniforms at social functions.  Retired 
officers probably use their ranks as titles for the remainder of their 
lives.  This would be best expressed in GURPS terms as buying several 
points of courtesy rank.

>In general, retirees are
>prohibited from wearing their military uniform in connections with personal
>enterprises, business activities, or while attending or participating in, a
>demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal
>or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues.

This was added after Vietnam Veterans against the War got moving.  The 
sight of veterans wearing their uniforms marching against US policy gave 
the brass the screaming willies.  Suddenly it wasn't just draft dodgers and 
commie sympathizers - it was the people who had gone and fought.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:34:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:34:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 9:24 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> The first event was the "fixing" of the figure skating competition at
> the Salt Lake "The Best Games That Money Can Bribe" Olympics.  The fact that
> such a prestigious event can be so baldly fixed(1) in such a chicanerous
> manner while the world watches makes my larcenous heart go pitter-pat.  The
> fact that the Olympics are bullsh*t and always have been bullsh*t, and the
> fact that figure skating is in no way, shape, or form a sport(2), do not
> detract from my evil glee.

Don't get me started.

Oh, what the hell.

My wife is a federal agent currently serving on security detail at the
Olympics (Curling venue in Ogden).  Aside from the fact that it is bitter
cold, and they are working 12 hour shifts, she has to deal with the Salt
Lake Olympic Committee (also know as the SLOC nazis.

They stand post out in the cold, sometimes in a phone booth sized box
thoughtfully provided by SLOC.  Sometimes with a propane heater even.  They
provide there own meals, but they cannot bring any food item or beverage
onto the premises that is not from an official sponsor (Coke OK, Pepsi bad).
They are not allowed to enter a venue either on a break, or off duty unless
they purchase a ticket.  Not even to get warm.  They have too huff it to
their designated break area.  By the time they get all the layers of
clothing off to use the bathroom, then get them on again, the break is over.
SLOC does thoughtfully provide hot chocolate and you might get a cup if it
doesn't run out.

Any of the most minor infractions result in a formal letter of complaint to
the officer's agency.  Several were issued to security stationed inside one
of the venues because they were watching the events while on their break.
They were told that they had to leave the building during break time.

And SLOC expects them to take a bullet for them if things go to hell. I
don't even know if SLOC is even supporting the cost of having these agents
there.  For all I know, they're getting it all for free.  Nice to know
you're appreciated.

Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:01:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:01:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0999.1E3E939@sitraka.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

Well, I'm normally a pretty cynical person, but this 
pretty much confirms my suspicion that the IOC is, in fact,
the embodiment of evil on the Earth. It's one more coffin
in the nail for the concept that man in inheritently good.

*sigh*

ObTrav: Ugh. Gettin' desperate here.... I wonder how many 
full-time tramp freighter crews are forced to the stars because
they belong to a groups that's been persecuted nearly to death
on their homeworld. Now, I don't want to draw comparisons with
Europe's Jewish population in the last few centuries too much,
but the comparison is probably quite apt. 

Of course, to really turn up the heat, one might wonder if the 
Imperium has ever, uh, "appropriated" a world to settle a
displaced people upon. It would, no doubt, make the current
situation Over There looks fairly tame in comparison...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:07:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:07:59 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F101WOxbCJnEMzAUor0000192b1@hotmail.com>

From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>

     "Of course, there was another view in the San Jose paper... there are 
only two winter Olympic sports with direct, opposed compeition. The
rest of the sports are just watching really buff people do the same
thing over and over and over."


Mr. Henry,

     I think competing against a clock should be allowed too.  Look at the 
cross-country races, both with and without the target shooting bit, or the 
downhill stuff.  It's the stuff where judges weigh in that is the problem.
     Look at the silly snowboarding events.  Snowboarding is a lot of fun, 
but having points deducted because your knees weren't together is crapola.  
Do you lose more points for the distance they're spread?  How long you keep 
them apart?  What if you're bowlegged?  The questions can go on and on.
     Simply timing how fast the snowboarder makes it down the mountain on 
her board should suffice.  Adding or deducting points for certain tricks or 
style is bullsh*t.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:10:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Andrew Whincup wrote:
> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

Quoth the Evil Overlord Rules:

* When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, 
ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying 
ropes and filching keys happens to follow him around.

Why a ship's monkey can be more fun than a barrel of Denebeian tree-oxen!


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:14:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <2b.228014af.299d46cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0CA1.8060503@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> Has anyone considered "building" one of these?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/12/qassam.facts/index.html
> 
> Charles
> 
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 
> 

When that came on CNN my wife and I turned to each other and said, 
simultaneously "I don't remember a Hamas Junkyard Wars team..."

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:15:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F260m0LJX9fWYAuseRB00019208@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "Don't get me started."

     "Oh, what the hell."

     "My wife is a federal agent currently serving on security detail at the 
Olympics (Curling venue in Ogden).  Aside from the fact that it is bitter 
cold, and they are working 12 hour shifts, she has to deal with the Salt 
Lake Olympic Committee (also know as the SLOC nazis)."


Mr. Glenn,

     You expected better behavior from the SLOC?  Remember, these folks were 
able to ingratiate themselves with the collection of crypto-fascists and 
third world mobsters that comprise the IOC well enough to be awarded the 
Games.  How the hell else would you expect them to act!
     Add the culture of self-righteous prudery exhibited by most residents 
of Utah and you get a lovely mixture.
     If that French count who resurrected the Games early last century saw 
them now, he'd puke.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:27:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:27:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
References: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <028f01c1b58d$9df5ea80$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they started
firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the cast.

I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
their adventures in space'

damn shame

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: [TML] New TV Series


> In Digest 152, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?
> >_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
> >and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
> >thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they
discuss
> >the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
> >
> >CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.
> >
>
> Or Channel 5, Saturday nights 2100, repeated Monday nights 2300 (UK
> "Terrestrial")*
> and
> UK-Living, Sunday nights 2100 (UK Digital).
>
> *Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal,
> non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!
>
> And as for 'Firefly', what happens if you change it to a whopping big
> starship and put Hercules in charge?  Oh, that was 'Andromeda', wasn't it?
>
> Jeff.
>
> In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
> In the midst of his laughter and glee
> He did softly and silently vanish away,
> For the censors had decided the material was unsuitable for broadcasting
> before the watershed...
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:28:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F101WOxbCJnEMzAUor0000192b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0FD3.D24269B0@sitraka.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>      Simply timing how fast the snowboarder makes it down the mountain on
> her board should suffice.  Adding or deducting points for certain tricks or
> style is bullsh*t.

Never snowboarded, have you? :)

Seriously, getting downhill is not that big a deal. If you want
to watch that, watch the snowboard Super-G or whatever the slalom
is called. Even an out-of-shape keyboard jock like myself can
make it downhill (mostly).

The genesis of snawboarding is skateboarding and it's all about the
culture, man. Grabbing huge air is what it's all about. It's a 
subcultural thing. You could do a halfpipe on skis (I suppose)
but it's just not done. But snowboarders are "bad". Dude.

Anyway, like I said, to me the point is that all judged events
should be judgable by anyone or not at all. Or opposed. Combat
snowboarding. With flails. Or whips. Over hot lava.

ObTrav: 3I athletes must all flock to certain worlds with the right
combination of high gravity and thin, untainted atmospheres so that
when they compete back on Terra-like worlds they're absolute freackin' 
super[men|women].

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:48:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:48:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <3C6C0999.1E3E939@sitraka.com>
References: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214114427.009eeb00@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.
>
>Well, I'm normally a pretty cynical person, but this
>pretty much confirms my suspicion that the IOC is, in fact,
>the embodiment of evil on the Earth. It's one more coffin
>in the nail for the concept that man in inheritently good.

Um, that's the SLOC, not the IOC.  I know people who did similar jobs in 
Atlanta, and they had nothing but good things to say about the organizing 
committee.

ObTrav:  Any sort of festival or event that moves from world to world is 
ripe for this sort of thing.. or any such event that merely attracts 
competitors and their fans from many worlds to one place.  IMTU, the 
Strouden Cup is such a thing, bring the best rollerball players together 
once every three years to determine which world fields the best 
team.  There is much controversy surrounding the 1121 games on Lunion, 
since a team from Gram is already being selected.  Not everyone has 
forgotten the war.  Should be fun!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:46:48 -0600
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
 <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>

I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
week's worth of hell

TV

__________________________________________________________________
          What is our aim? Victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of
all terror;  
Victory how ever long and hard the road may be.   
                                                           Sir Winston Churchill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 20:53:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:53:15 +1100
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
In-Reply-To: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>
References: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020215075315.A15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION
> Registered in Regina/Regina.
>  
> WELCOME! 
[...etc...]

:)

This mail was within a reflex-twitch of being dumped into the junk
folder to moulder in the forgotten heaps of pyramid scams and who
knows what else.  I was even momentarily annoyed that it got past my
junk-mail filter.  Excellent work!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:06:10
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <F252cUtI9dm5UxP9Fek00005e55@hotmail.com>

When I retired from the Reserves, I got a letter that pretty much said the 
same things. I was authorized to use my rank as a title and to wear the 
uniform on very specific occasions. I thought it was interesting that I 
could choose to wear either the current uniform or the uniform in effect 
when I retired. I have yet to find an occasion when I would want to wear a 
uniform even if I could put one together; maybe when I get older and march 
in a Veterans Day parade.

There are advantages to being retired that could be of benefit to a 
Traveller character if they carried over into the Imperium. A retiree is 
still considered a member of the military. I have an ID card and get a 
military vehicle pass for my car, which helps with the recently increased 
security. (It sometimes startles my passengers when Im saluted entering a 
base.)  I am also eligible for club membership, which has definite social 
advantages for an aerospace contractor or some other professions. Retirees 
can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; that 
could translate into free military passage in Traveller.

John L.


>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Sort of back on topic.  I found this while searching for uniform pics.
>Since a lot of characters see to like to wear their uniforms after getting
>out.  Here's the US policy. I think I'll adopt this as the Imperium's 
>policy
>too.
>
>Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.
>
>Tod
>
>Military Uniforms
>
>Wearing of military uniform by military retirees.
>....

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 20:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:58:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>
References: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020215075833.B15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      I loved the "TL mind f*ck" as a GM.  There are lots of ways to
> do most things.  Our choices about how to do them had more to do
> with happenstance than efficiency.

That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than
re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".  The different
availability of various things between systems helps drive home the
point that the Traveller universe is bigger than worlds, and the
nearest 'familiar' territory might be months away.  (Or more, if
you're trying to fit a TL 8 maneuver drive into your otherwise TL 11
starship)


> He fully expected to be able to step into the breach if the GM (me)
> decided to get funky with the vessel's NPC crew.  Too bad the ship
> had ROTARY sails...

:)  I like it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:02:03 +1100
Subject: [TML] Playtesters wanted
In-Reply-To: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>
References: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020215080203.C15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Drop me a line directly by e-mail (jo_grant@us.ibm.com) if you are
> interested.

Hell, no!  You're that spammer who's collecting email addresses with
that Zhodani Grav Lift scam!  If you want my address you'll have to
pluck it out of my mind yourself.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:05:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020215075833.B15627@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013720711.9084.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than
> re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".

Sure, the existing TL rules are definately more fun from a role-playing
perspective.  However, if you're going to apply rationality to your universe
(admittedly, rather optional for a RPG), the default TL rules don't make any
sense, at least not for a setting which has had a stable government and trade
for the last thousand years.

T4 was a crappy product, but the standard randomized TL, population, etc, make
a lot more sense for a setting in which interstellar society has basically
broken down.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:19:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
References: <F252cUtI9dm5UxP9Fek00005e55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C29E1.8766584C@sitraka.com>

John Lambert wrote:
> Retirees
> can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; that
> could translate into free military passage in Traveller.

Oooooohhh. That's a hot one.

The PCs try to deadhead to some uninteresting major port but get
redirected moments before jump to a war zone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:49:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:49:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
Message-ID: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>


There's a solution to the entire IOC mess.

Go with the free market, and start up a competing product!

This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics
were just one of MANY series of games.
Why not revive another - and run it in the off years.

Go to former olympic venues - or those that didn't get the prize - and
offer to hold the even there - the community thus getting two uses out of
the expensive facilities.

Drop the entire "Professional/Amateur" distinctions, already dying, which
were basically set up to make the olympics a upper class only party back in
the 19th century - tell people "We want to see your BEST athletes - and we
don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
whatever."

Choose an operating board that is composed of respected athletes and sports
organizers worldwide - not the leavings of the last gasp of european
nobility and national sport organization political hacks - and set a
reputation for honesty!

Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
fairly across the board.

Remove the 'artistic interpretation' sports - An athlete should compete
directly either against other athletes, the clock, or a measurable scoring
system - not before panels of judges who grade each subjectively.


In short, make the motto not "Faster, Higher, Stronger" but
"Competitiveness, Accountability, Honesty"

OBTrav - Would 57th century athletes be sponsored by homeworlds, sectors,
the Nobility - or by megacorps? - the expense of holding interstellar
athletic competitions must be enormous, especially if it involves sending
thousands of athletes all to one location for a series of events.

Disclaimer: The opinions above are my own, and not those of my employer or
any other organization to which I belong.


Joseph Paul Rocchi
IBM Global Services



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:58:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:58:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Heaven and Earth
In-Reply-To: <200202141650.g1EGoI319553@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214220051.LBSB319.dorsey@link>

I haven't actually used Heaven and Earth, but I strongly suspect the
"massed pile of numbers" is in .csv format or some similar format intended
to be easily converted by various software.  Have you tried taking the H&E
output, saving it as just one file, then using File menu and choosing
Import in Excel, Quattro Pro, 1-2-3 or other spreadsheet program of your
choice?  This suggestion may save you a lot of work, if you haven't been
doing it.

CSV format is usually handiest for this kind of thing.  It stands for Comma
Separated Values.  It is a flat ASCII text file containing nothing but the
data, some commas, and some newlines.  After translating a CSV to a
spreadsheet, each separate line of CSV text becomes a spreadsheet row, and
the data between the commas in the CSV goes into the separate columns of
the spreadsheet row.  It is very easy to write a PERL script or whatever
for importing CSV files into your favorite database program, and some
database software includes an import/export utility for CSVs.

If you are like me you've had to manually munge a lot of the data from
disparate sources that you import into your database.  I usually get the
data in CSV, then open it with Excel or 1-2-3, do my munging, export it to
CSV, use script to insert into database, with appropriate doublechecking of
the insert.  The spreadsheet makes it easier for a human to sift through.

--Laning
"The three principle virtues of a good programmer are Laziness, Impatience,
and Hubris."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 23:30:02 EST, SinEater40K@aol.com typed:
>
>I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it 
>gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable
text 
>and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:24:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:24:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
In-Reply-To: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>; from josephr@ca.ibm.com on Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500, Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM wrote:
> 
> This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics
> were just one of MANY series of games.
> Why not revive another - and run it in the off years.

Good idea.

> Drop the entire "Professional/Amateur" distinctions, already dying, which
> were basically set up to make the olympics a upper class only party back in
> the 19th century - tell people "We want to see your BEST athletes - and we
> don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
> whatever."

Hrmph.  I _like_ the amateur ideal.  As I've said before, the
difference between an amateur and a professional is the difference
between one's spouse and a whore:-)

> Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> fairly across the board.

Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
man in history.

> Remove the 'artistic interpretation' sports - An athlete should compete
> directly either against other athletes, the clock, or a measurable scoring
> system - not before panels of judges who grade each subjectively.

Agreed.

And it'd be nice to have electrical scoring taken out of fencing.
Bleah.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
MS could no more resist the urge to co-opt and/or subvert Mono or
related techologies than a Great White could resist a tasty meal at the
Ft. Lauderdale Haemophiliac Seniors Beach club.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:33:07
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <F211tmdUSoLiOOsfifs0000bd12@hotmail.com>

That is one possibility. From my own experiences with Space-A travel, you're 
often unable to go directly to your intended destination so you catch a hop 
to someplace in the general direction, hoping to catch another flight from 
there. As a result, you frequently find yourself stranded in some obscure, 
little place you never intended to be waiting for the next flight with 
available space. That has its own adventure possibilities.

>From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
>
>John Lambert wrote:
> > Retirees
> > can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; 
>that
> > could translate into free military passage in Traveller.
>
>Oooooohhh. That's a hot one.
>
>The PCs try to deadhead to some uninteresting major port but get
>redirected moments before jump to a war zone.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:49:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <169.8d77ddc.299d9917@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   Note that all the really _weird_ hinge-licking, hot water drinking, 
butt-dragging, all-night howling I'd offered up as shenanigans for a truly 
_troubled_ Ship's Monkey  were, in fact, symptoms my former cat, Phil 
exhibited during his slide into Madness (according to the Vet, cats just go 
_crazy_ sometimes).

   I guess a character could always purchase a Gened monkey that's had the 
urge/need to eliminate waste completely _removed_. 

   Number One: "Okay Cap, I made sure _this_ time to get 2 of those really 
_big_ packs of disposables for that damned monkey. I put 'em in the Ship's 
Locker..." 
   Captain:"Oh, no need, Number One. The monkey no longer requires diapers."
   Number One: "Don't tell me you've (UGH!) _toilet-trained_ the damned 
thing!"
   Captain: "No, I traded Mr. Chuckles in for a Gened Model. Not only does 
this new one _not_ smoke, but it doesn't _need_ to use the fresher either."
   Number One (taking a closer look at the new monkey): "Hmmm, this one 
doesn't even have an _ANUS!_...Or genetalia...You sure this'll work?"
   
   Too bad the thing just winds up _exploding_ after a while :)
   Ain't technology grand?   
   -Ken-



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:49:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:49:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time,
shanhat@angelfire.com writes:

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
> esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a
> bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't
> know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was
> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's
> monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some
> plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM:
> "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a
> silly idea.

In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have 
done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work 
on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a 
number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural 
form, but not fully sentient.

You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps 
a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of 
this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to 
speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known 
sign) and can type and use a computer.  

So, you could have the thing keep trying to get access to the 
computer to attempt to communicate, while the PCs (presumably if 
they have *any* sense at all) wish to keep a seemingly ordinary 
monkey from playing on their computer.

For extra fun, if you can keep this going for a while, you could have 
a linguistic historian who knows sign as a passenger and have the 
monkey plead with this passenger to help free it from the people 
who have enslaved it and thwarted all of its efforts to communicate 
(ie the PCs)...

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:13:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:13:27 +1300
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <F143lEQQFP9uINO2xZi0000ab17@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6CFB67.6803.809EE4@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 17:56, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Sooner or later these boobs will figure out the correct employment
> doctrine for these rockets and flatten a settlement or two.  Rather than
> send them off in dribs and drabs, wait until you've got 40 or 50 of the
> wretched things and then have a launching party.  They don't even need
> to work that out for themselves, all they need to do is be able to read
> history.
>      Guess we're lucky they're mostly illiterate, huh?

That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
running round there anymore.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:24:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <169.8d77ddc.299d9917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C4749.9070203@yarranet.net.au>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>    Hi gang,
>    Note that all the really _weird_ hinge-licking, hot water drinking, 
> butt-dragging, all-night howling I'd offered up as shenanigans for a truly 
> _troubled_ Ship's Monkey  were, in fact, symptoms my former cat, Phil 
> exhibited during his slide into Madness (according to the Vet, cats just go 
> _crazy_ sometimes).

Oh no, my cat must be going mad because he regularly hops in the shower with me to 
drink the water. But then I'm more concerned about all that time he spends smoking at 
the computer. >;D

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:20:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:20:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
 <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C4641.95EBE657@attbi.com>



Thomas Vickers wrote:
> 
> I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
> week's worth of hell
                                                
That discribes a quite a few Pcs, in the games I've run and played in.
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:27:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <3C6CFB67.6803.809EE4@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013729258.2060.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
> batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
> running round there anymore.

Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 individual
blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a single
massive attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214235430.LQVY319.dorsey@link>

Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
on that?

Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
very popular practice.

--Laning

On  Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 09:42:47 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
<<<SNIPPED INTERESTING POST OF U.S. POLICY ON MILITARY RETIREES WEARING
THEIR UNIFORMS>>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:13:09 -0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
References: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010801c1b5b3$ccbb87a0$62080150@jimcatchpole>

Jeff Rowse asked :-

>
> *Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal,
> non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!
>

Yes    :-)

Since the day they started broadcasting our picture has been *perfect* -
even when the other channels aren't !

I guess we've got everybody else's signal ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:12:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C6C527E.A5B75BBC@premier.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time,
> shanhat@angelfire.com writes:
> 
> > I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> >
> > I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
> > esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a
> > bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't
> > know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was
> > wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's
> > monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some
> > plot uses for said monkey.
> >
> > Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM:
> > "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a
> > silly idea.
> 
> In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have
> done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work
> on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a
> number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural
> form, but not fully sentient.

Do they actually use the term "uplift?"  If so, you might consider
contacting the folks at the Oxford English Dictionary Science Fiction
Citation Project, as they are looking for uses of the terms "uplift" and
"uplifting" from authors other than David Brin (Steve Jackson already
has submitted citations from GURPS Uplift):

http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml
> 
> You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps
> a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of
> this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to
> speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known
> sign) and can type and use a computer.

Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
nourished).

http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html

For a more detailed look at the development of this concept:

http://www.monkeybagel.com/shit.html

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:19:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:19:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215002137.LXDR319.dorsey@link>

This is not at all right.  Has anyone in the press picked up on this story
yet?  The part about "no Pepsi, Coke" should get the press' interest, if
nothing else.

With respect to Traveller, IMTU this sort of indignity is role-played out.
If enough of the right people make the right kind of stink, then the
situation is improved.  Enough of the right people might mean MTU
equivalent a top-level bureaucrat at ATF calling up various top SLOC people
to prominent journalists raising a national debate on it to angry friends
and family of the mistreated law enforcement types picketing entrances.
That last scenario could make for interesting roleplaying if they need to a
permit to picket and don't have one.  Who is going to order an agent to
disperse or arrest their own spouse and other loved ones?  If you're the
agent and get such an order, what do you do?  Depending on subsequent
events, what further public relations nightmare develops?

--Laning

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 10:34:51 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
<<<SNIP OF AN ASTOUNDING LITANY OF PETTY INDIGNITIES THE SALT LAKE OLYMPIC
COMMITTEE IMPOSES ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTECTING THEIR LIVES>>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:17:49 +1100
Subject: [TML] Totally OT: Australia Moves to the North Atlantic
Message-ID: <OF980015FF.0716B650-ONCA256B61.00013887@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Apparently we're a lot nearer to you all (except Rupert, Frank, and Andrew 
M-V) today:
        http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/australia.shtml

Funny, I haven't noticed any difference. I guess that's because Canberra 
is even more ignored than the rest of the country...  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:33:18 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Monkeys
Message-ID: <OF90A0F978.6225365A-ONCA256B61.0001FFCA@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Loren replied to someone:
>>I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of
>>a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone 
>>could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
>Don't monkeys have a tendency to steal small, shiney things, like
>keys, memory chips, and other vital plot macguffins?

You don't mean like the Beaker, do you? The one from an early JTAS?? The 
one that is copyright Loren K. Wiseman???

See this (the original article also has a picture):
        http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/kagekiha/traveller/jtas//beaker.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:10:25 +1000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003501c1b5bd$a79e4b60$115d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> the collection of crypto-fascists and third world mobsters that comprise
> the IOC

Ah.  That brings back memories of 2000...

The fact that Mr Samaranch had been one of Franco's blue-eyed boys was a
source of vast amusement.

Hmm.  I may have to look at the Antiama milieu again.  Solomani and Games...
And monkeys, too, of course.  Something to distract myself with for the rest
of the afternoon...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com









From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:40:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>A player is going to be justifiably pissed if he puts a lot of work
>>>>into a detailed design and another player can put together a *better*
>>>>design with the simple system.

>>>>And likewise, while the player using the simple system won't be too
>>>>upset if his design is somewhat inferior to the one from the detailed
>>>>system, he's gonna be understandly upset is it's so much *worse* that
>>>>it'sz a major problem.

All of this is true ONLY if you believe it's even logicallly POSSIBLE to
have a complex and simple system be compatible! Since I don't think it's
possible, then every GM will have to decide which system they are using.
The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
use the simple system and this will never come up. 

>>>>> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
>>>>> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
>>>>>>>>Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
>>>>>>>>somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.

Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
1. Yes you can 
2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
clothes are too small. 
3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult. 
4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
clothes shut.
5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
or the the coat length of the player

>>>>>>Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics
is
>>>>>>going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
>>>>>>system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 

Not at all. You dont have to 'throw out physics' to use *abstraction* (the
processing of simplifying complexes processes by reducing it to only the
factors you are interested in measuring). A simple system DOESNT need to
know about surface area. It needs to know about weapon and equipmment
limitations. That's abstraction. 

>>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
>>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
>>>>>>easy to see it is.

No it wont. Same answer as before:
1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
rule on this.

>>>>>>"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system
are
>>>>>>still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
>>>>>>grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.

How's that working out for you? Anything so far? I didn't think so....

>>>>>> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression
that we
>>>>>> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in
the
>>>>>> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....
>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not? 

Because it's not logically possible. Abstraction says that you ONLY want to
measure certain factors. The complex system says you want to measure MOST
factors (remember that we're one step away from real-life engineering).

So you can't keep *MOST* factors and ALSO keep ONLY some factors. In other
words, you can't "simplify" 100 by making it 10. You wont get simpler,
you'll just get 'smaller' numbers, but you'll have just as many. 

>>>>>> The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
>>>>>> the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
>>>>>> that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
>>>>>> weren't part of the original list.

Good luck to you there! Let me know when  you wrap that up and make it
available to the public! ;)

>>>>>>Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But
>>>>>>they'll be there if they are ever needed.

I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details. 

The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
"insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
ignore them. 

>>>>>>Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
>>>>>>mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same
volume
>>>>>>(ie "same tonnage").
>>>>>>Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.

No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with that. Make
it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into account. 

>>>>>>Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
>>>>>>*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
>>>>>>trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to
know
>>>>>>*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how
much
>>>>>>surface area they cover).

And someone always wants to know if their Arm Strength is greater than
their Leg Strength. Does your Traveller game have different stats for Arm
Strenght and Leg Strength? No! Because it's not that important to the game.


The Traveller system isn't a "Simpler" version of the Multiple Limb
Strength system. It's a simple system that completely *ignores* multiple
limb strength. 

>>>>>>And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.

Boo hoo - you can't sqeeze more weapons into the ship than my design system
ALLOWs  you do. Same with High Guard. Same with FF&S, same with having
Special Arm Strength. If the rules allow it - fine. If the GM is using
rules that DONT allow it. Too bad. 

The explantion. I'm the GM and I only want to use this design system. The
other stuff matters/doesn't matter in my game. 

> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
> all. 

>>>>>>But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
>>>>>>coexist in the same universe.

No they dont. You can have your SCOUT ship in  your universe and I can have
my SCOUT ship in my Traveller universe and they can be built with different
systems but working in the same universe. Both will be recognizable as
"Scout" ships, but I don't have to allow your Scout ship built with GURPS
Traveller into my MegaTraveller game. 

It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
to do away with.

>>>>>>*Neither* is acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in
your unioverse.
>>>>>>And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
designs/ships.

Of course! The GM should ban systems he doesn't want in his universe! 

No Traveller GM I know of allows characters to be built with CT,
MegaTraveller, GURPS Traveller or TNE. The GM *has* to pick and choose
systems.

I'm just asking for one more choice!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:40:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:40:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <200202142041_MC3-F205-D854@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if
anyone
could think of some plot uses for said monkey.<

I've read alot of ideas about how to get rid of the monkey, but it seems to
me that the players have done the GM a big favor!

It's like they just bought 10 points worth of Common Sense. 

1. Dont' want them to go somewhere dangerous?  The monkey hoots and hollars
and goes apefits whenever they go that direction.
2. Want the players to go somewhere? Curious george just has to wander over
there. 
3. Want the players to trust someone they're suspicous of? If the monkey
likes them they must be good!
4. Want to show how bad a villian is? Monkey gets kidnapped!
5. Want them to avoid a combat? Monkey unclips their power pack - he's
michevious that way. 
6. Want them to misjump? Monkey starts pressing buttons. 
7. Want them to break into somewhere and the players haven't got a clue?
Monkey steals an access card. 

I think you get the idea. 

Now don't forget that pound for pound, you want the monkey to more useful
than annoying. Otherwise, the audience will ask why not just throw him out
the airlock (e.g. Blawp), but otherwise, use the monkey for the kind of
"cute bits" that make a story fun. Comic relief, meeting girls, creating a
mess in zero-g. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 02:53:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:53:48 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both 
the types and execution of certain moves.  It doesn't matter if you are the 
most artistic skater in the world; because if you fall, or turn a triple 
into a double, or step out of a landing, you will lose points.  This is why 
the bar keeps being raised.  A few years ago, the quad was the undreamable 
dream, now it almost required to medal.  And even a few of the women are 
beginning to land them in practise!"


Mr. Berry,

     Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure skating 
is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
     The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at 
least four times during their program but the judges defended their decision 
because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic presentation is 
part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!
     The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is 
another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the 
gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 2002 
without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply requires you to 
do better than your competitors, or a physcial standard, or the clock and 
not you expertise in performing a triple-wipple-dipple, full bullwinkle, 
quad, or any other "artistic" nonsense.
     The winner of the cross-country race in 1980 completed the course 
faster than any of his opponents.  The winner in 2002 won by doing the same 
thing.  It suddenly wasn't required that he perform some sort of trick for 
"artistic points" to win the gold.  Ski beautifully or ski looking like a 
sack of sh*t, all that matters is skiing faster than the other fellow.
     Figure skating is an art form hijacked by a cabal of international 
goons for money grubbing purposes.  Now I enjoy grubbing for money as much 
as the next guy, but at least I'm honest about it.  Don't present the 
activity as one thing when it is actually another.

     "(Go Giants!)"

     Boy oh boy!  I can hardly wait, even though the Red Sox are REALLY 
going to SUCK this year!  How's that new park you fellows have?  It sure 
looks like a great place to watch a ballgame in.  Any local foods served in 
the park, like the brats in Milwaukee or deep-dish pizza in Chi-town?  Here 
at home, you can get chowder and clam cakes at the PawSox park.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 02:55:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:55:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <200202150120.g1F1KPi07309@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020214184858.00a3d780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:27:38 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson 
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

>Rupert Boleyn writes:
> >
> > That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket
> > batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors
> > running round there anymore.
>
>Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 
>individual blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental 
>trauma than a single massive attack.

And less likely to provoke an even more massive attack in 
return.  Harassment shelling is one thing, but if you get enough ordnance 
together to *obliterate* a target, the authorities *will* hunt you 
down.  Whatever it takes.  You have just crossed the line from "partisan 
resistance" to "hostile military force", and will be answered in kind.

ObTrav:  al Q... um, Ine Givar, anyone?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:00:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Mire and Jacent
In-Reply-To: <200202150120.g1F1KPi07309@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1b5cc$fb00e420$0b01a8c0@duck>

I wish to Landgrab Mire/Darrian and Jacent/Darrian.

Once I get done with them, I will come back for more.  :-)

I hereby release all prior claims to Anduril/Sword Worlds.  I had originally
claimed Anduril even before joining the TML, but now release it.  (BTW, I
highly recommend it to someone who wants to try a landgrab.  There is
absolutely *nothing* written about it, pretty much guaranteeing that
whatever is written won't conflict with canon.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:31:24 +0000
Subject: [TML] Different Tech Paths (was: Earth's economy...)
Message-ID: <F118J64TBU25JJzxvoE000033b8@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than 
re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".  The different
availability of various things between systems helps drive home the
point that the Traveller universe is bigger than worlds, and the
nearest 'familiar' territory might be months away.  (Or more, if you're 
trying to fit a TL 8 maneuver drive into your otherwise TL 11 starship)."


Mr. Little,

     Yeah, the old "We're not in Kansas anymore" effect.  Let the PCs know 
their not just visiting another version of 2002, TL8, Terra.  That's one of 
the fun parts of role-playing.
     The problem lies in the fact that the existing TL rules are geared for 
role-playing and not for world building.  Any TL rules will always lean 
towards the role-playing side of this argument because, after all, we are 
dealing with a GAME and not a model of REAL LIFE.
     I think another part of the problem is that more people play with 
Traveller than actually play Traveller.

     Too bad the ship had ROTARY sails...

     " :)  I like it."

     It was a lot of fun to drop that one on him.  I'm worried I got the 
technology wrong though.
     IIRC, I designed the rotary sail driven cargo ships using the MT system 
and with some supplemental rules that appeared in the Challenge.  The sails 
didn't use the Magnus Effect, as all other rotary sails used in the follwing 
design systems.  Instead, they acted like a horizontal windmill.
     There was a Hard Times Era adventure published in the Challenge 
featured carts propelled by this type of rotary sails.  The PCs are hired to 
evict a group of thugs from a solar panel farm on an equatorial island.  The 
thugs have taken over the island and the locals want it back.  The PCs need 
to sneak onto the island.  They travel in a normal sailing sloop armed with 
blackpowder cannon and must avoid the thugs paddlewheel driven, steam 
powered, patrol boats.  Once on the island, they travel to the solar panel 
farm in land carts powered by rotary sails.
     There HAD to be design rules for these rotary sails because I designed 
a rotary sail powered merchant ship for my campaign.  The problem now is I 
can't find anything about the damn things!  Naturally, I don't have my old 
notes either... (sigh)
     Horizontal windmills were used in many places here on Earth.  In 
ancient Persia (where many think windmills were first invented), one region 
used horizontal windmills exclusively.  The wind in that area ALWAYS blew 
from the same direction, so all you need do was build a wall between the 
windmill and the wind, then let a bit of the windmill "peek" out around the 
wall.
     If you were in an area where wind direction was more variable, you 
built a tall sleeve around the windmill with a two slots in it.  You turned 
the sleeve around as the wind direction changed.  The wind entered via one 
slot, turned the wheel, and eixted via the other.
     L. Sprague de Camp's "Ancient Engineers", a book I heartily recommend 
to everyone, describes all of this far better than I could.
     Part of my campaign was set on Winston, a TL6 world with a popualtion 
under 500K.  Maintaining all the infrastructure required for a petroleum 
based economy with that few people would be clos to impossible.  Even coal 
or wood fired external combustion engines would prove hard to keep fed.  
Unless I wanted the population huddled around mines or wood lots, and I 
didn't, I had to come up with another way to power their water-borne 
transportation.  Enter rotary sails.
     The rotary designs had another bonus too.  Fewer men were needed to 
crew one when compared to a conventially rigged ship.
     So, I have this fully detailed world with tiny, far-flung communities 
of partial xenophobes held together by a network of rotary sail-driven, 
ocean-crossing vessels.  But I can't "prove" that the vessels are "kosher" 
'cause I lost the design rules.  D'oh!
     Have I ever mentioned that I'm a complete idiot?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:39:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:39:44 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F171Cl4tyDrodCugC2300019866@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket
batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors
running round there anymore."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I guess my point was that they don't need a Soviet advisor or any other 
"sooper-dooper" secret information, the "proper" use for these things is an 
open secret.  Just pick up any history of the Eastern Front.
     They either can't use them "properly"; i.e they don't want to try and 
hide the existance of the required 100+ rocket depot from the Isrealis or 
can't hide it long enough, or they don't want to use them "properly", i.e. 
flattening a settlement with 100+ rounds of HE will REALLY bring the IDF 
hammer down.
     Of course, given how desperate they feel things are getting in this 
latest round of Intefada(sp), anyone want to bet that they don't begin using 
them "properly"?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 04:02:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:02:34 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that
40 individual blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more
mental trauma than a single massive attack."


Mr. St. Clair,

     Wiping an "illegal" Jewish settlement off the face of the West Bank in 
a single attack would most certainly cause quite a bit of mental trauma.
     It also may have the effect of sending some of the less hearty 
"settlers", most of which are purported US citizens, scurrying back to the 
Western Hemisphere.  Living with the occasional human bomb and sniping 
incident is one thing, knowing that your apartment block could disappear 
with you in it is something entirely else.  There could be a bit of a West 
Bank "bug-out" afterwards.
     Of course, the folks who don't leave will be the real bitter-enders and 
will be next to impossible to shift.

     "And less likely to provoke an even more massive attack in return."

     That might be the real reason.  Although with each side sliding into 
despair, I wouldn't want to bet on a "katyusha urban development" program 
not being launched.  Life in Gaza is getting pretty grim.

     "Harassment shelling is one thing, but if you get enough ordnance
together to *obliterate* a target, the authorities *will* hunt you down.  
Whatever it takes.  You have just crossed the line from "partisan
resistance" to "hostile military force", and will be answered in kind."

     Of course, being viewed as an actual nation-state is one of the PLA's 
goals.  Flexing your nation-state muscles and using "hostile military force" 
instead of "partisan resistance" could be viewed as an accomplishment of 
that goal.
     I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other 
Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that 
brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they 
killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked 
airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.
     Being invaded, killed, and occupied by Isreal as if they were an actual 
nation-state might be viewed as an "improvement" in certain quarters, no 
matter what horrific act casued the change.  The burden may be more on 
Isreal's not responding to the provocation than on any Palestinian 
organization's fear of reprisal.


ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals" agreement 
with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal" with the 
Imperium about the nobility?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 04:24:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:24:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hussam-2 missile a wild card in Denotam conflict
Message-ID: <OFD5235CF2.41FA1E63-ON85256B61.001755B7@lotus.com>

HUSSAM-2 MISSILE A WILD CARD IN DENOTAM CONFLICT
Denotam/Vilis
 
The Hussam-2 is a homemade, "extremely primitive" rocket with an estimated 
range of up to eighty thousand kilometers according to Rejemy Bernie, 
Vilis Sector editor for Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment in Vilis. 

The nearly 6-meter-long missiles, propelled by a mixture of sugar, 
ammonia, alcohol and carbon compounds, are believed to be in the hands of 
Shamash, the Denotam separatist belters whose military wing has carried 
out terrorist attacks against Denotam civilians and Imperial Navy targets. 


On Day 66, the Imperial Navy announced it had seized a shipment of eight 
Hussam-2 missiles as they were being transported by a belt ship between 
two outer belt planetoids. 

It's believed that the Hussam-2 can be produced quickly. The rocket is 
considered the next step up from the Hussam-1 and the homemade warheads 
that Shamash used previously, according to Bernie. 

Those warheads had a shorter range, so the Navy could more easily track 
them with relative ease and move quickly to intercept the attackers, 
Bernie said. But the Hussam-2 rockets -- bearing warheads containing 1.1 
to 1.5 tons of explosive material -- could be more difficult to trace. 

"Also, they could potentially be used en masse to target a refinery or the 
Navy base," he said. "They would cause significant damage and there would 
be little the Navy could do about it." 

Bernie said it's unclear how the Hussam-2, whose accuracy he describes as 
"poor," might affect the military balance between the Navy and the 
separatist belters. 

"Although the Navy maintains overwhelming military superiority, they may 
find themselves powerless to stop these missiles if the Belters can 
develop reliable technology and tactics," Bernie said. 

The missiles also could lead to harsher Naval retaliation and prompt more 
incursions to look for missile factories, said Bernie. 

"It will become a battle as to whether the Belters can continue 
manufacturing these things," Bernie noted. 

The Navy say the missiles, though highly inaccurate, nevertheless leave 
the Denotam population centers exposed to attack. 

KEY QUESTIONS

Could the deployment of the Hussam-2 missile escalate the conflict between 
Navy backed Denotam governments and the Belters? 

Does Hussam-2 suggest a greater threat to Denotam security? 

Does Hussam-2 signal that the Belters or Shamash could eventually have 
access to even more potent, longer-range ammunition? 

Could Hussam-2 affect the balance of power between the legitimate Denotam 
government and the separatists? 

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:04:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:04:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C96D3.A5D7D1DF@premier.net>



Michael Taylor wrote:

> <<snip>>
> 
> I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
> details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
> GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details.
> 
> The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
> "insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
> ignore them.

All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
Tell me which details you find "insignificant."  For me to know how to
address your objections, I need to know exactly what they are.  Anyway,
here's the AuricTech Shipyards _Sentinel_-class scout/courier:

**begin transmission**

_Sentinel_, _Sentinel_-class Scout/Courier (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards; Lead Designer: Erik Grierson

Statistics
Tons: 100std ( SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 19.8m x 9.9m x 9.9m
Volume: 1400m3
Cargo: 4std (1 x Large cargo hatch; Cargo handler:1 x 5-tonne capacity)
Mass (L/C): 665t/579t
Maintenance Points: 21
Crew: 2/4
Cost: 59.974 MCr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 8

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3xFltComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86).
3xFibComp
(CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No
bridge.
Communications: 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 4xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 1xLIDAR
(14.5
[500kkm], 0.5MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-1 (-1 at 50MW, -1.5 at 8MW), Act:-0.5, Neu:-2,
Grav:0 (Chameleon coating, Basic IR masking, 1 level Stealth, Neutrino
masking)

Performance
3 Jump (10std/pc fuel)
2/2.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:32MW)
1/1.1 Contra-grav (11MW)
3488kph/3590kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2616kph/2693kph)
2 Power (/Fus:83MW,1yr )
0 Battery
30.6 Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:12.8,1MW)
4/2/1 Accomodations (Small staterooms/Large staterooms/Emergency Low
berth)
108  Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good food/Storage) (18 weeks of Good
rations for six crew)
2 G-Comp
1 Sandcaster (AV:97 /Cans:20)
10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure

Weaponry
1 x 20-Mj Triple-mount X-ray Laser turret with MFD (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
[3,200/11-11-11-11] (LR) (Point Defense RoF: 800)

Features
1xAirlock
1xDecontamination Airlock
1xDocking Umbilical
3xShip's locker (0.05std ea.)
1xArmory (0.21std ea.) (Capacity: 6)
1xGym (2.5std ea.)
1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:12)

Small Craft
1xMinHgr (4std, 1 hatches)

Backups
Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm]). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm]). 1xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).
Power & Fuel: Fusion (8MW).

Crew Details
2xMnvr. 1xGunn. 1xScrn.

**end transmission**

I await your response.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:34:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:34:30 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D54B6.21458.3EAFDA@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 20:40, Michael Taylor wrote:

> Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
> 1. Yes you can 
> 2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
> clothes are too small. 
> 3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult.
> 4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your
> holding your clothes shut.
> 5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
> 6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of
> the weapon or the the coat length of the player

So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's 
wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if the 
large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's 7' 
tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more i then 
have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this 
statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to 'guessitmate' 
it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down. All in all having 
that stat save a bit of hastle.

> >>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
> >>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and
> >>>>>>how easy to see it is.
> 
> No it wont. Same answer as before:
> 1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
> 2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
> Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
> 3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
> 4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
> 5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
> 6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
> rule on this.

And how do you tell if the other slightly bigger/smaller ship beside it 
is also in the same situation? What about a yet bigger or smaller one? 
Again you're making it up. There are a number of players around who 
find it difficult to make assesments of situations they're comfortable 
with in games where so much is just 'made up' - it can feel arbitary.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:44:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:44:50 -0700
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 04:02:34AM +0000
References: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020214224450.A8840@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 04:02:34AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
>      I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other 
> Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that 
> brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they 
> killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked 
> airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.

They _have_ been far from the most politically astute of groups.
Unlike, say, a certain rogue state which destroyed the USS Liberty
with malice aforethought, but which has political connexions such that
repercussions simply...weren't.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It is possible to be so openminded that one's brains come spilling out.
                                                      --Flavio Carillo

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:55:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
Message-ID: <20020214.215508.-172943.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Would a gentle knowledgeable person kindly answer this?

1. How old is Emperor Strephon?

2. When did he ascend the throne?

Thank you in advance,

Turokan



We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:12:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:12:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6CA6E2.5BF5EEFB@sympatico.ca>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      "Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both

> SNIP

> beginning to land them in practise!"
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure skating
> is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
>      The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at
> least four times during their program but the judges defended their decision
> because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic presentation is
> part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!
>

Sir, while I appreciate your sentiments as do most of my fellow Canadians.  You
must understand that this whole episode is further proof of the not widely
published law the states "No Canadian Figure Skating Gold Medals."

All cynicism and conspiracy theory stuff aside, as a professional referee for
the sport of Paintball, judging can be a real pain.  While we do not deal with
artistic merit in paintball, the split second decisions required in the last 10
seconds of bunkering (to win on points) in an otherwise stalemate game are only
hampered by the sideline reffing provided by some spectators.  I certainly wish
that my eyesight was good enough to call a paintball break from 20-30 feet away,
through safety netting, on the hidden side of a player.

>   The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is
> another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the
> gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 2002
> without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply requires you to

Again in Paintball we have a similar problem, but ours is technology related not
ability.  You would seriously be surprised how much argument you could land
yourself in defining semi-automatic for paintball.  We are almost to the point
with both mechanical and electronic triggers that not only must we stipulate the
obvious one ball per trigger pull, but must also stipulate trigger distance
travelled and pound pull required.  Also the continuos argument with the
electronic markers about switch bounce being an inevitable bug, and not an
undocumented feature.

Oh to ref a simple sport with only one ball or puck in play, maybe even 10
player full contact pinochle games would be less stressful.  Oh well at least I
do not have to pay for movie tickets to the latest action flick to watch guns
with endless magazines and people being repeatedly shot and walking away or even
returning fire.

Michael




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:23:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many
 TU's
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com> <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6CA956.DDC14929@sympatico.ca>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500, Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM wrote:
> >
> > This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics

SNIP

> > don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
> > whatever."
>
> Hrmph.  I _like_ the amateur ideal.  As I've said before, the
> difference between an amateur and a professional is the difference
> between one's spouse and a whore:-)

There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other Tropical
destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they must be
happy just for the competition.

>
> > Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> > across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> > fairly across the board.
>
> Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
> history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
> man in history.

Maybe you have a valid point there, Canada has a short history of using
performance debilitating drugs to level the field in Snowboarding and we still
won.

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:01:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:01:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20020214235430.LQVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214230042.009ea310@mindspring.com>

At 06:52 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
>there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
>service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
>terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
>on that?
>
>Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
>rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
>common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
>more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
>very popular practice.

You might want to ask this in us.military.army, as it is more a US military 
question than a Traveller issue.  We have people there who can quote AR 
670-1 from memory.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:59:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the many  TU's
In-Reply-To: <3C6CA956.DDC14929@sympatico.ca>
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
 <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225232.009fc510@mindspring.com>

At 01:23 AM 2/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
>Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other 
>Tropical
>destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they 
>must be
>happy just for the competition.

 From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had 
never before swam 100 meters, never even seen an Olympic pool representing 
his country.  He was wearing plain swimming trunks, and the other people in 
his heat (who were at the Olympics under a program to allow developing 
nations to place athletes in sports the nation isn't known for) both 
DQd.  So he swam alone.  The most painful, awkward 100 meters you ever 
saw.  We were wondering if he was going to make it at all!

But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally 
touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a 
medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/olympics2000/swimming/newsid_931000/931508.stm

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:51:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:51:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
In-Reply-To: <20020214.215508.-172943.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225056.009fbb20@mindspring.com>

At 09:55 PM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:

>1. How old is Emperor Strephon?

born 1048


>2. When did he ascend the throne?

1071

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:13:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214230428.009fd8f0@mindspring.com>

At 08:40 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Okay. Someone who needs to know.
>1. Yes you can
>2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
>clothes are too small.
>3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult.
>4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
>clothes shut.
>5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's.
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
>or the the coat length of the player

But then I want to know if I can flip the door switch using the barrel of 
my rifle, or use the weapon as an imprvosed cane.. why not just go ahead 
and give the GM the info?

And I have had players, good ones mind you,  who would raise specific 
complaints about half of those hand waves.

My take on this has always been to start with the detailed design system, 
then build easier, compatible versions.  GURPS does this nicely with the 
VE2 to modular design system we see in Traveller


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:30:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:30:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214231709.009e9860@mindspring.com>

At 02:53 AM 2/15/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure 
> skating is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
>     The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at 
> least four times during their program but the judges defended their 
> decision because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic 
> presentation is part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!

And we are having this discussion only because it is becoming very clear 
that the judge(s) voted the way the did as part of a deal.  Everyone knows 
that the Canadians won, the chants of "6.0" were unprecedented.  This is 
why the IOC is threatening to disqualify the French judge and use the 
scores from the alternate, who scored Canada first, Russia second.

Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of 
thing.  In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off 
the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking 
anything, you have to do it with grace, style, and in time to your music.

>     The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is 
> another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the 
> gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 
> 2002 without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply 
> requires you to do better than your competitors, or a physcial standard, 
> or the clock and not you expertise in performing a triple-wipple-dipple, 
> full bullwinkle, quad, or any other "artistic" nonsense.

The bar has been riased.. what was the standard for winning the 100 meters 
in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.  In 
this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the edge.

>     The winner of the cross-country race in 1980 completed the course 
> faster than any of his opponents.  The winner in 2002 won by doing the 
> same thing.  It suddenly wasn't required that he perform some sort of 
> trick for "artistic points" to win the gold.  Ski beautifully or ski 
> looking like a sack of sh*t, all that matters is skiing faster than the 
> other fellow.

That's sking.  This is figure skating. Part of the requiremnt is too do it 
with style and grace.  That is difficult in of itself.  Michael Jordan can 
let his tongue hang out and react when he misses a shot, but skaters have 
to keep smiling and not react, even when things go wrong.  I saw a girl at 
the National Finals fall twice in her routine.  She kept smiling until she 
finished, then broke down.  That takes heart.

>     Figure skating is an art form hijacked by a cabal of international 
> goons for money grubbing purposes.  Now I enjoy grubbing for money as 
> much as the next guy, but at least I'm honest about it.  Don't present 
> the activity as one thing when it is actually another.

Uh-huh.  Does it help if i mention that cometivtive figure skating has been 
going on for 150 years?  And we got rid of school forms as being a 
pointless artistic expression with no athletic merit?

>     "(Go Giants!)"
>
>     Boy oh boy!  I can hardly wait, even though the Red Sox are REALLY 
> going to SUCK this year!  How's that new park you fellows have?  It sure 
> looks like a great place to watch a ballgame in.  Any local foods served 
> in the park, like the brats in Milwaukee or deep-dish pizza in 
> Chi-town?  Here at home, you can get chowder and clam cakes at the PawSox park

Pacific Bell Park, aka The Phone Booth, is great.  There isn't a bad seat 
in the place, and you are close enough to really get some good heckling in, 
especially when the Dodgers (spit) come to town.  Local food?  Here?  Hard 
to define.  We do get Anschor Steam beer on tap, and the best garlic fries 
in the nation.. and chinese food, sushi, kilbasa dogs, there's a couple of 
Italian stands...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:28:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
Message-ID: <20020214.232809.-94495.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks Doug, I needed that......

Turokan

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:51:52 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:55 PM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >1. How old is Emperor Strephon?
> 
> born 1048
> 
> 
> >2. When did he ascend the throne?
> 
> 1071
> 

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:40:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:40:30 +1100
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <ML-2.3.1013729258.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C6CE59E.8050201@gmx.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
>>That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
>>batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
>>running round there anymore.
>>
>
>Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 individual
>blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a single
>massive attack.
>
>
That and the fact getting 40-50 of these together in one place or even 
the effort of getting them together would a) prolly be noticed and b) 
bring the wrath of the Israeli Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines (do they 
have marines?) Mossad and probably even the boy scouts down on their 
heads...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:32:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com> <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6CE3AB.6090206@gmx.net>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
>week's worth of hell
>
>TV
>
Weeelllll....If it misbehaves you may havve to spank it.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:42:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:42:26 +1100
Subject: [TML] Totally OT: Australia Moves to the North Atlantic
References: <OF980015FF.0716B650-ONCA256B61.00013887@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3C6CE612.70809@gmx.net>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

>Dear Folks -
>
>Apparently we're a lot nearer to you all (except Rupert, Frank, and Andrew 
>M-V) today:
>        http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/australia.shtml
>
>Funny, I haven't noticed any difference. I guess that's because Canberra 
>is even more ignored than the rest of the country...  ;-)
>
With what the PM is Up To this may change in a real hurry...I can hear 
the distant baying of the houn^D^D^D^D press.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 13:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gary Miles)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:38:36
Subject: [TML] Ship's Monkey
Message-ID: <F47QWXABScwifWj4hjx00018e3c@hotmail.com>


>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>

>
>Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
>on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if
>anyone
>could think of some plot uses for said monkey.<
>
>I've read alot of ideas about how to get rid of the monkey, but it seems to
>me that the players have done the GM a big favor!
>
>It's like they just bought 10 points worth of Common Sense.
>
>1. Dont' want them to go somewhere dangerous?  The monkey hoots and hollars
>and goes apefits whenever they go that direction.
>2. Want the players to go somewhere? Curious george just has to wander over
>there.
>3. Want the players to trust someone they're suspicous of? If the monkey
>likes them they must be good!
>4. Want to show how bad a villian is? Monkey gets kidnapped!
>5. Want them to avoid a combat? Monkey unclips their power pack - he's
>michevious that way.
>6. Want them to misjump? Monkey starts pressing buttons.
>7. Want them to break into somewhere and the players haven't got a clue?
>Monkey steals an access card.
>
>I think you get the idea.
>

Two words: "Bad dates..."

Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...88


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 14:57:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202150855490.25699-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor wrote:
> The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
> use the simple system and this will never come up. 

I imagine it would come up pretty often if they're in the same group.
I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>

Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:24:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE0E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.<

What is the "frontier" universe? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:42:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215104124.00a7b8a8@urbin.net>

Gearhead websites.

At 10:24 AM 2/15/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:34:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:34:49
Subject: [TML] Re: Uniforms
Message-ID: <F144CXPIxkcY4lX0hyi00019919@hotmail.com>

Most ex-military of all varieties have worn some uniform items (fatigue 
jackets, camouflage pants, parkas, etc.) after leaving the service whether 
it was authorized or not. While I was in the AF, they began issuing a light 
jacket that could be worn with insignia with the uniform or with civilian 
clothing without the insignia. Saved carrying two jackets on TDYs. IMTU, you 
can often recognize a vet in a bar because is wearing an old military jacket 
that is no longer current issue. If you know your uniforms, you can tell 
what service and what era he served in. It is an automatic introduction if 
your service time overlapped his.

Some of the medals I received came with a miniture pin version of the ribbon 
for wearing on civilian clothing, but I've never seen them worn.

John L.
"And he's talking with Davy, who's still in the Navy
And probably will be for life" Piano Man, Billy Joel


>From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
>there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
>service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
>terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
>on that?
>
>Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
>rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
>common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
>more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
>very popular practice.
>
>--Laning
>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:55:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:55:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <200202151553.g1FFrvQ02188@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>Subject: Re: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
...
>ObTrav:  al Q... um, Ine Givar, anyone?

  What have you got against freedom fighters? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:00:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D3089.59445A40@sitraka.com>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I recall a good drawing of battledress in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'.
They had some good stuff. Also, DGP's '101 Vehicles'
has a drawing for most every vehicle and there's plenty of military 
ones.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:05:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <3C6C527E.A5B75BBC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D31C8.3060208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:

> Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
> nourished).
> 
> http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html
> 
> For a more detailed look at the development of this concept:
> 
> http://www.monkeybagel.com/shit.html

Ohhh.....my.....ghodd.....my keyboard..it's, it's GONE man!

It just vanished when the coffee hit it....how will I get the blast 
marks off the wall...and I need new sinuses, too...

see: http://www.monkeybagel.com/pumas.html

A quote:

"We've all heard the "herding cats" analogy with regard to managing 
programmers. Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang of 
neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty smack habits and 
opposable thumbs."

Those have GOT to be FS bikes, too!
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:58:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:58:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
Message-ID: <3C6D3031.1020404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Sort of OT but we've discussed this and it has clear Trav implications.

We were discussing reporters and how they misreport stories because of 
their ignorance...

Background: There is a leukemia cluster, possibly, in Sierra Vista AZ, 
which is home to an Army base and an Airstrip with lots of flights (Ft. 
Huachuca is a big Army comms/intel training base, as well as one home 
base for the RPV fleet, lots of big jet transports in and out).

Some suspicion has fallen on pollution from jet fuel (probably not that 
important in my opinion, since there are a LOT higher exposures 
elsewhere without corresponding cancer clusters, and the designation of 
it as a 'cluster' is really iffy, as it just barely reaches the required 
number of cases).

The reporter quotes a UA researcher as saying "We don't know for sure 
whether jet fuel ccauses cancer in humans, but we do know it does in mice."

Which is wrong, and prompted the following letter to the editor from the 
  scientist who was interviewed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Letters
Professor says he was misquoted

Carla McClain's article, "Jet fuel studied in Sierra Vista," that 
appeared in the Jan. 26 Star, contained a misquote of my statements 
during an open meeting held in Sierra Vista on Jan. 20. McClain quotes 
me as stating, "We cannot prove that exposure to jet-fuel particulates 
will induce cancer in humans, but we know it does in animals."

In the meeting, I stated, "Exposure to jet fuel particulates in mice 
will cause a doubling of DNA micronuclei in both bone marrow and 
peripheral white blood cells, as well as an increase in mouse melanoma 
B16 tumors after we induce the cancer in the mice with injection of B16 
cells in the mouse tail vein."

I realize that these are complex scientific issues; however, I believe 
that Ms. McClain and the Arizona Daily Star need to be as accurate as 
possible when reporting these issues to the public.

Mark L. Witten

Research professor and director of the Joan B. and Donald R. Diamond 
Lung Injury Laboratory at the University of Arizona College of Medicine

Editor's note: The disputed quote matched the reporter's notes of the 
meeting."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why of course, EVERYONE knows that if something increases melanoma after 
B16 tumors are induced by injecting b16 cells it's not causing cancer, 
right?

As it stands, I do, but I worked as a researcher in carcinogenesis 
studies for many years. Would the average reporter be able to suss this 
out, especially in the context of an public meeting with lots of people 
talking?

Would *you*?

The researcher still hasn't got a clue that he's going way over the 
heads of 99.99% of his audience.

Maybe the reporter called that APC a tank because when they asked what 
it was, they were told 'Oh , that's a M-143 A slash 45B command variant 
Burchard with a one-oh-five mount and the coax fifties!"

And they wrote, "uuuh, tank"

What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer, 
to *help* cause it to happen'

...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think 
jet fuel particlates do.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:19:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:19:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD1@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Depends.  What are you looking for?  Specifically Traveller, or is mixed genre
for data mining okay?  Tod Glen has a bunch of Traveller arsenal stuff, mostly
current or near future tech level from what I remember, and there's a ton of
different genre stuff out there on the web.  I've also got a couple of
handwaviums at:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/weapons.htm

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Taylor [mailto:MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 7:24 AM
To: Traveller Mailing List
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:25:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Henry [mailto:ethan.henry@sitraka.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:00 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I recall a good drawing of battledress in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'.
They had some good stuff. Also, DGP's '101 Vehicles'
has a drawing for most every vehicle and there's plenty of military 
ones.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:22:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <20020215162257.A2C6123AC1@debian.voyager.net>

> Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

No problem - I empathize (as best I can in my
nice warm cubicle...).  At least you've opened my eyes
a bit to what's going on there and what it's like.
(It's too easy to be sucked into the 'reality' they want
presented on TV.)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:45:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:45:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215114302.01b86020@mail.comcast.net>

At 02:49 PM 2/14/2002 -0800, John Snead wrote:
><SNIP>
>
>In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have
>done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work
>on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a
>number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural
>form, but not fully sentient.
>
>You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps
>a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of
>this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to
>speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known
>sign) and can type and use a computer.
>
>So, you could have the thing keep trying to get access to the
>computer to attempt to communicate, while the PCs (presumably if
>they have *any* sense at all) wish to keep a seemingly ordinary
>monkey from playing on their computer.
>
>For extra fun, if you can keep this going for a while, you could have
>a linguistic historian who knows sign as a passenger and have the
>monkey plead with this passenger to help free it from the people
>who have enslaved it and thwarted all of its efforts to communicate
>(ie the PCs)...

This could get scary quickly!  There could be a covert sentient monkey 
league or monkey liberation organization a la the Ine Givar (sp?), i.e.... 
dedicated to freeing geneered monkeys from human domination... Somebody 
else mentioned a week in JS hell - this could wind up being the *monkey* 
from hell, with an attitude, too!



Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net New Email Address!!!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:02:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
Message-ID: <5b.22ffb4d4.299e9916@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 22:34:53 GMT Standard Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:

SNIP
> > Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> > across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> > fairly across the board.
> 
> Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
> history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
> man in history.
> 
SNIP

Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns 
about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now 
capable of inserting functional genes into adults and sports will be one of 
the first places that widespread illicit use is seen. Look out for it first 
in endurance sports but muscle sports probably won't be far behind.

Also be on the lookout for a sudden jump in athlete deaths until we get the 
bugs ironed out. Unless the genetic engineering makes bugs of course and then 
we could all be in trouble...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:48:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:48:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>

"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!

AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
and I'm still giggling.

"Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
your camel toe. Ouch."

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:13:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:13:43 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <73.1adf2543.299e9bc7@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 23:37:54 GMT Standard Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> > 
> > That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
> > batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
> > running round there anymore.
> 
> Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 
> individual
> blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a 
> single
> massive attack.
> 

Agreed one of the key aspects of terrorist/freedom fighter* activity is the 
threat of repetition. It is important that the enemy (or at least their 
population) believe that they are always under threat. I am sure that Hamas 
would love to dump forty of these on one target but then they would then have 
to fire forty the next time as well or the perceived threat would start to 
fall.

Although this may be useful in the long run since it may allow smaller 
attacks to succeed it would not be good on the PR front, either with their 
home based supporters or with the "enemy".
 
Charles

*Delete according to taste

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:08:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:08:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Yeah, that *was* a bit off :)~  In the final version that saw print that got shrunk down a bit ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Henry [mailto:ethan.henry@sitraka.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!

AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
and I'm still giggling.

"Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
your camel toe. Ouch."

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:25:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C6C96D3.A5D7D1DF@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013793953.7543.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
> Tell me which details you find "insignificant."

Hm...as in, 'I wouldn't really need this information?'

> Statistics
> Tons: 100std ( SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic )
> Dimensions: 19.8m x 9.9m x 9.9m
Well, that's at least one more significant figure than I care about, or even
consider accurate.  20mx10mx10m would be better.
> Volume: 1400m3
I already know it's 100 dtons, why do I need cubic meters as well?
> Cargo: 4std (1 x Large cargo hatch; Cargo handler:1 x 5-tonne capacity)
> Mass (L/C): 665t/579t
Nope, don't need that info in most cases.
> Maintenance Points: 21
> Crew: 2/4
> Cost: 59.974 MCr
Call it 60 MCr.
> Tech Level: 15
> Size: 8
> 
> Electronics
> Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3xFltComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86).
> 3xFibComp
Well, I definately don't need the CM/CP figures, since all they do is adjust
the crew and maintenance requirements, which are already listed.
> (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No
> bridge.
> Communications: 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 4xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
> Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 1xLIDAR
> (14.5
> [500kkm], 0.5MW).
> Survey/Science:
Not much use to columns for stuff that isn't listed, is there?  I'd put any
science sensors under 'sensors'.
> ECM:
> Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-1 (-1 at 50MW, -1.5 at 8MW), Act:-0.5, Neu:-2,
> Grav:0 (Chameleon coating, Basic IR masking, 1 level Stealth, Neutrino
> masking)
I'd probably drop the alternate IR signature.
> 
> Performance
> 3 Jump (10std/pc fuel)
> 2/2.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:32MW)
> 1/1.1 Contra-grav (11MW)
> 3488kph/3590kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2616kph/2693kph)
> 2 Power (/Fus:83MW,1yr )
Not clearly necessary, though it probably rises naturally from simple design.
> 0 Battery
> 30.6 Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:12.8,1MW)
> 4/2/1 Accomodations (Small staterooms/Large staterooms/Emergency Low
> berth)
This could probably be better stated.
> 108  Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good food/Storage) (18 weeks of Good
> rations for six crew)
Drop the food listing (and the food, actually); food is cargo.
> 2 G-Comp
> 1 Sandcaster (AV:97 /Cans:20)
> 10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure
> 
> Weaponry
> 1 x 20-Mj Triple-mount X-ray Laser turret with MFD (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
> [3,200/11-11-11-11] (LR) (Point Defense RoF: 800)
> 
> Features
> 1xAirlock
> 1xDecontamination Airlock
> 1xDocking Umbilical
> 3xShip's locker (0.05std ea.)
> 1xArmory (0.21std ea.) (Capacity: 6)
> 1xGym (2.5std ea.)
> 1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:12)
Seems likely to be subsumed under other systems.  True, actually, of several
components.
> 
> Small Craft
> 1xMinHgr (4std, 1 hatches)
Do we really need to know the number of hatches?
> 
> Backups
Aiii!  Definately to be dumped, just include some level of backups in all
higher-powered electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:21:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215114302.01b86020@mail.comcast.net>
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215120713.00a92ac8@urbin.net>

Well, there is the Solomani Monkey Liberation Front, then there is the 
Monkey Liberation Front of Solomani, and the Solomani Liberation Front for 
Monkeys, but those are just a bunch of splitters...

At 11:45 AM 2/15/2002 -0500, Bill Rutherford wrote:
[snip]
>This could get scary quickly!  There could be a covert sentient monkey 
>league or monkey liberation organization a la the Ine Givar (sp?), i.e.... 
>dedicated to freeing geneered monkeys from human domination... Somebody 
>else mentioned a week in JS hell - this could wind up being the *monkey* 
>from hell, with an attitude, too!

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:43:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F138YtdSHYwHnx9FMAt0001a1d4@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>

     "...as a professional referee for the sport of Paintball, judging can 
be a real pain."


Mr. Stasica,

     Professional paintball matches?  Details, man, details!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:21:04 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F211nVruILkBEVTWUKI0001c377@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of
thing."


Mr. Berry,

     Any activity that relies exclusively on the subjective opinions of 
officials and judges as the only way to score is not a sport.

     "In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off
the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking
anything, you have to do it with GRACE, STYLE, and in TIME TO YOUR MUSIC." 
(emphasis mine)

     So, artistic presentation figures in the scoring system?  That's not a 
sport.

     "The bar has been raised.. what was the standard for winning the 100 
meters in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.  
In this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the 
edge."

     No.  All you have do to is best your competitors at the time the event 
is held.  Every gold medal sporting competition does not automatically 
result in a new world record.  You beat the people you're competing against 
and not the marks made in history or the continually changing, completely 
subjective standards of "artistic merit".
     All you need to do is jump higher or run faster and you win.  There are 
no officials judging your performance according to entirely subjective and 
completely nebulous "artistic standards".  Style, grace,
and performing in time with your music need not apply.

     "That's skiing.  This is figure skating."

     Yup.  The former is a sport and the latter isn't.

     "Part of the requirement is to do it with style and grace.  That is 
difficult in of itself."

     The standards of style and grace are entirely subjective at the time 
they are applied and by the people who apply them.  Running a course faster 
than the other fellow isn't.  A homerun is a homerun is a homerun.  Whether 
you hit onw gracefully or hit one looking like a sack of sh*t doesn't matter 
in the scorecard because baseball is a sport.
     I'm not saying that figure skating isn't difficult or that it doesn't 
require immense dedication and training on the participants part.  What I am 
saying is that it isn't a sport.  It is something BETTER than a sport, it's 
an artform.  Judging it, awarding prizes, choosing winners, all of that 
denigrates figure skating.  Those acts lowers it to the level of simple 
competition where it does not belong.
     Figure skating should be treated better than that.

     "Michael Jordan can let his tongue hang out and react when he misses a 
shot, but skaters have to keep smiling and not react, even when things go 
wrong.  I saw a girl at the National Finals fall twice in her routine.  She 
kept smiling until she finished, then broke down.  That takes heart."

     So, you're awarded points for aplomb?  What if she grimaced?  Would her 
score have been lower?  What if she landed a more complicated jump then her 
competitor, but grimaced as she did it?  Would her opponent, who didn't 
attempt the harder, actual athletic feat, but kept smiling, recieve more 
points and win?

     "Uh-huh.  Does it help if I mention that competitive figure skating has 
been going on for 150 years?  And we got rid of school forms as being a 
pointless artistic expression with no athletic merit?"

     Mere window dressing.  All artistic expressions are pointless in an 
athletic event.
     The event is openly judged on "artistic" merits.  Final scores are a 
mix of two catagories, technical presentation and artistical merit.  Any 
judgements or scores based on artistic merit do not belong in an athletic 
event.  Figure skating even paid lip service to that ideal by dropping the 
school forms, but it still uses "artistic standards" to choose winners.
     The fact that figure skating has been around for 150 years is entirely 
moot.  Sculpture has been around for millenia and it isn't an Olympic 
sporting event.

     "Pacific Bell Park, aka The Phone Booth, is great.  There isn't a bad 
seat in the place, and you are close enough to really get some good
heckling in, especially when the Dodgers (spit) come to town."

     Great knickname!  Too bad Strawberry wasn't still wearing Dodger 
blue...

     "We do get Anchor Steam beer on tap, and the best garlic fries in the 
nation.. and chinese food, sushi, kilbasa dogs, there's a couple of
Italian stands..."

     Oh boy, Anchor Steam... garlic fries... kielbasa...  The Whipsnade tum 
gurgles in delight.  We used to have Narragansett, a local brew, on tap at 
McCoy.  Then Shaefer bought the brewery and shut it down.  It was perhaps 
the best clam boiling beer ever made.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:21:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>DOUGLAS (m) "dark river" or "blood river" from Gaelic dubh "dark" and glais
>"water, river". Douglas was originally a river name, the site of a
>particularly bloody battle, which then became a Scottish surname. The
>surname belonged to a powerful line of Scottish earls.
>
>Very interesting site!

Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
English k-niggets.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:44:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>
>On a related note, there are some car parks here with a legally
>mandated speed limit of 5 km/hr!  The fine for exceeding the speed

One can violate that speed limit by running through the parking lot, too.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:44:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
>Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't
know if
>leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy
sailors
>called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  Surely some
group will be called bubble heads for that type of helmet, etc.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:18:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD6@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Starport EVA maintenance crews come to mind...
Jesse



The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  Surely some
group will be called bubble heads for that type of helmet, etc.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020215193822.119.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

What if the monkey is a scam.  The PC's get about 5-10
minutes from Jump Space and somebody notices the
monkey is missing.

Turns out, the seller sells the monkey to unsuspecting
passers through and the monkey has been trained to
escape and make its way back to the seller.  So the
same monkey is sold over and over and over.

(Yes, it is an idea with some holes in it, but it is
an idea.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:37:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:37:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215193955.RZBX319.dorsey@link>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 20:40:42 -0500, Michael Taylor
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> typed:
<<<SNIP OF EARLIER QUOTES>>>
>All of this is true ONLY if you believe it's even logicallly POSSIBLE to
>have a complex and simple system be compatible! Since I don't think it's
>possible, then every GM will have to decide which system they are using.
>The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
>use the simple system and this will never come up. 

I am both.  Gearhead and role player.  Not sure where you fit people like
that in your schema.  :->

Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe it is
possible for a simple design system to be more or less a subset of the more
complex system.  I certainly haven't seen a logical proof that it's
impossible.

>
>>>>>> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
>>>>>> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
>>>>>>>>>Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
>>>>>>>>>somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.
>
>Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
>1. Yes you can 
>2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
>clothes are too small. 
>3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult. 
>4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
>clothes shut.
>5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
>or the the coat length of the player

I see both points of view.  And believe that referees should have the
freedom to choose their approaches.  Personally, I'm not quite enough of a
gearhead to want to design barrel length into every single weapon.
Especially knowing how hard it is to devise a weapon design system that
will produce such specific data that conforms well with real world physics.
 And I'm enough of a roleplayer that I don't want to see referees who don't
know that much about how weapon designs work being trusted to wing it and
devise the answer to the concealability question.  I have way too much
trouble in that department already, and have to spend lots of extra effort
working at willing suspension of disbelief.  That detracts quite a bit from
my game enjoyment.  One of my roleplaying friends has it much worse.  He
periodically quits our longest-running "Traveller" game because the
referee's comprehension of firearms is so dim that it just drives him crazy.


>
>>>>>>>Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics
>is
>>>>>>>going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
>>>>>>>system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 
>
>Not at all. You dont have to 'throw out physics' to use *abstraction* (the
>processing of simplifying complexes processes by reducing it to only the
>factors you are interested in measuring). A simple system DOESNT need to
>know about surface area. It needs to know about weapon and equipmment
>limitations. That's abstraction. 

Again, both points of view seem to be at least partly valid.  Sometimes
(always, for some people) you really need to know surface area in order to
be able to decide what the in-game ramifications are of that surface area.
Some referees/players will be so extreme that they actually get their game
enjoyment from knowing that surface area and using it to help calculate how
long it will take their submerged starship to heat up the small lake it is
in and evaporate it completely away.  Don't ask me why that particular
example, maybe they're hiding underwater and want to know how long before
they're visible or maybe the nasty crocoids in the lake are troubling the
locals and this is the plan for ending the crocoid threat.  Most people
won't want to look up the physical constants involved or do the math
involved, much less get enjoyment from it, but their referee is the sort of
control freak who is refereeing partly because s/he gets to model the
entire universe in his/her own game and do this kind of thing.  Maybe the
referee is the sort who just makes up an answer that sounds good even
though they know nothing about the topic, and maybe this is fine with the
players or maybe some of the players know more about the physics and have a
really hard time swallowing the improvised answer.


So, the game rules that are ultimately published should try to make as many
as possible of the above sorts of people happy.  The most obvious approach
is a multitiered set of design rules.  Another approach that I think
somebody already mentioned is use the complex rules for everything, but
provide software (a prebuilt spreadsheet) so that a nongearhead can plug in
a few simple basic parameters (hull size, power plant size, price, etc.)
and the software cranks out all the answers to every question they ever
might have.  Just waiting to be looked up.  This requires a publisher who
is willing to make the leap that all customers have the capability to use
the software as part of their game.  I think that's a worthwhile leap.
Just include a CD inside the rule book.  CDs are cheap to distribute (lol,
just ask AOL).  If you want to include a "simple" system, a la QSDS, that
works without the software then perhaps just list about 50 or 60 standard
ship designs cranked out with the software.  The list should be part of the
basic rules.  Obviously, game expansions with lots more standard starships,
vehicles, etc. are possible in the future.

I'm relatively far into the gearhead end of the spectrum, compared to most
role-playing game players I know.  But FF&S has always been a turn off to
me.  At least partly due to how unwieldy it use to use until you've
developed intimate familiarity with the book.  It's mostly just tables,
packed together in whatever fashion will use the least paper.  But only
partly due to that, it's still a very complex system even if the "user
interface", if you will, were made beautiful.  Perhaps, I don't know but
perhaps, a lot of people besides the extreme gearheads would be amenable to
a system even as complex as that if we also had a CD of spreadsheets
included in the rules for doing our own ship and weapon and vehicle and so
on designs.  Caveat, the dang things had BETTER be bug free, or else you'll
ruin marketing for this product and any future ones.  I think Imperium
Games already proved that.


So, as long as gearheads get the flexibility and detail they want they are
happy.  And as long nongearheads can very quickly and easily just the
information they need and not fuss with the rest, they're happy.
Spreadsheets sound like a very likely solution.  I refuse to describe
gearheads and "roleplayers" as being at different ends of the same
spectrum.  They're completely different spectrums from each other really.
It may be possible that a 2-dimensional graph can be made for representing
player personality types.  The X axis showing degree of gearheadedness, and
the Y axis showing degree of roleplayerness.  I've seen some people who
score high on both, and some people who score very low on both but still
really like playing role-playing games.  Not sure if there are other
important components of player personality types that should be graphed;
maybe it needs to be a 3-dimensional graph, or more dimensions than that.
You can pretty well use Richard Bartle's graph for describing types of MUD
players with face-to-face gamers also, and that's two additional dimensions
right there.  How gearheady of me to go on like this, lol.

>
>>>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
>>>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
>>>>>>>easy to see it is.
>
>No it wont. Same answer as before:
>1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
>2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
>Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
>3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
>4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
>5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
>rule on this.

Again, depends on the player personality type of the referee whether they
need the gearhead detail to answer this.  And the other players in the game
will also vary on how much gearheading they want in the answers.

>
>>>>>>>"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system
>are
>>>>>>>still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
>>>>>>>grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.
>
>How's that working out for you? Anything so far? I didn't think so....
>
>>>>>>> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression
>that we
>>>>>>> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in
>the
>>>>>>> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not? 
>
>Because it's not logically possible. Abstraction says that you ONLY want to
>measure certain factors. The complex system says you want to measure MOST
>factors (remember that we're one step away from real-life engineering).
>

>So you can't keep *MOST* factors and ALSO keep ONLY some factors. In other
>words, you can't "simplify" 100 by making it 10. You wont get simpler,
>you'll just get 'smaller' numbers, but you'll have just as many. 

Not sure I follow your point here.  What I think you're saying is a
gearhead system, by definition, involves lots of factors.  The simple
system, by definition, involves very few factors.

If that's what you're saying, then I immediately have a few issues to think
about.  Who decides how many is a lot and how many is a few?  If it's just
a quantitative difference in number of factors, then how does the line
between complex and simple get drawn?  Where does it get drawn?  Is this
line subjective, and varies depending on the player?  Maybe the line always
get drawn the same place for everybody?  If it's only a quantitative
difference in measuring number of factors, can we still claim that there is
an essential and **qualitative** difference between "simple" design system
and "complex" design system?  Sorry that I have more questions than answers
with this.  Although I know what my intuitive answers are for these
questions, I don't know that there will be widespread agreement and don't
see a way to devise definitive proofs.

As for ways to simplify "100", I think what we really want to do is not
simplify the value 100, but simplify the formula so that you don't need to
worry about that particular value.  There are ways to do this in a lot of
situations.  Here's an example I'm thinking of.  As was already noted,
number of personnel to staff a ship tends to correlate pretty closely to
ship displacement and weapons carried and tech level.  If you're already
calculating those three things anyway, then your simple system doesn't need
to ask you to calculate exact ship personnel requirements.  As long as a
rough approximation works for the players and referee, that's good enough
and the simple system can spit that out for you after the rest of the ship
is designed.  The rough approximation will be way out of whack for
extremely small or extremely large ships, and for ships with unusual
designs.  So your simple ship design system should intentionally leave out
the ability to do unusual designs and very large or small ships.

>
>>>>>>> The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
>>>>>>> the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
>>>>>>> that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
>>>>>>> weren't part of the original list.
>
>Good luck to you there! Let me know when  you wrap that up and make it
>available to the public! ;)
>
Someone well practiced with mathematics probably won't have a difficult
time doing this.  Most of us have long since forgotten, or never even took,
the math courses where you learn this level of mathematics.  So, yeah to us
it seems a daunting challenge to attempt.  We just need some game designers
to step forward who are well versed with somewhat higher math.  I'm not
talking Einstein, either.  Heck, I had all the math training probably
needed for this by 12th grade.  But it's all forgotten due to disuse and
other reasons.

>>>>>>>Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But

>>>>>>>they'll be there if they are ever needed.
>
>I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
>details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
>GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details. 
>
>The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
>"insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
>ignore them. 

If I understand you correctly, then we agree on this.  Gearheads
**require** more details to be happy with their game, nongearheads are
content with ignoring the less important-seeming details and wild
approximations of other details.  Just so long as somebody makes up some
kind of answer, let's get back to the action.

>
>>>>>>>Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
>>>>>>>mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same
>volume
>>>>>>>(ie "same tonnage").
>>>>>>>Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.
>
>No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with that. Make
>it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
>incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into account. 

Hmmm.  I think sooner or later it will.  But how long it will take will
depends on how many ships you design in your lifetime.  How much it bothers
you depends on precisely where your personality type falls on the gearhead
spectrum.  And, you may be a type who recovers quickly from this by just
saying "Oops, guys, I made a mistake on the number of turrets and now I'm
going to say it has 5 instead of 50," with nobody in **your** game being
bothered by this.


So, technically yes it will bite you sooner or later.  Whether you care or
not is a different issue.

>
>>>>>>>Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
>>>>>>>*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
>>>>>>>trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to
>know
>>>>>>>*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how
>much
>>>>>>>surface area they cover).
>
>And someone always wants to know if their Arm Strength is greater than
>their Leg Strength. Does your Traveller game have different stats for Arm
>Strenght and Leg Strength? No! Because it's not that important to the game.
>
>
>The Traveller system isn't a "Simpler" version of the Multiple Limb
>Strength system. It's a simple system that completely *ignores* multiple
>limb strength. 

Yes, very true.  Each published game makes its own design choices, and we
buy the ones that suit us.  Some referees then add to or modify the
existing rules to suit themselves.  Possibly because they just like doing
that sort of thing.  Possibly because they're driven to it because some
aspect of the published rules just detracts from the willing suspension of
disbelief that is necessary for their fun to continue.  Somewhere, some
Traveller player is really being bothered by the lack of a canonical
multiple limb strength system.  Somewhere else, some Traveller player never
even bothers to use the Strength attribute in her/his games.  It's easy to
recognize the difference between these two players, because they are at
extreme ends of the spectrum.  The awkward task for the original game
designer is choosing how to make the game appeal to the part of the
spectrum that they want to appeal to.

>
>>>>>>>And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.
>
>Boo hoo - you can't sqeeze more weapons into the ship than my design system
>ALLOWs  you do. Same with High Guard. Same with FF&S, same with having
>Special Arm Strength. If the rules allow it - fine. If the GM is using
>rules that DONT allow it. Too bad. 
>
>The explantion. I'm the GM and I only want to use this design system. The
>other stuff matters/doesn't matter in my game. 

Exactly.  To each his own.  When a group of players sits down with one of
them as the referee, a kind of social contract is entered into wherein
everyone agrees that the referee's preferences are the final arbiters of
what the rules are.  Although I've seen some groups who don't realize this,
becoming contests between which player can out-rules-lawyer everyone else,
with the referee fighting to keep up.

>
>> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
>> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
>> all. 
>
>>>>>>>But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
>>>>>>>coexist in the same universe.
>
>No they dont. You can have your SCOUT ship in  your universe and I can have
>my SCOUT ship in my Traveller universe and they can be built with different

>systems but working in the same universe. Both will be recognizable as
>"Scout" ships, but I don't have to allow your Scout ship built with GURPS
>Traveller into my MegaTraveller game. 

Well I agree with you, but only technically.  If someone wants to publish a
set of rules that make you and only you happy, they're welcome to.  It
probably is a smart career move on the designer's and publisher's parts if
they try to make lots of other buyers happy besides just you, though.  And
of course, as you say, it's a dumb career move for them to try to actually
make GT and MT ship designs work in the same rule system, thinking that
would make the greatest number of buyers happy.

A good set of rules will allow both gearhead and simple to coexist and be
compatible.  A good set of rules will also do other things to make people
happy, which are unrelated to this.  Being all inclusive is not the sole
criterium for judging a set of rules.  Therefore, it is not necessarily
true that more inclusive equals better rules.

>
>It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
>to do away with.

I think he doesn't want to "do away with" anything.  Perhaps, in the heat
of debate, feelings of protectiveness are rising high, here.  Or maybe I'm
laying too much emphasis on this.  :->  I think the only significant
difference between the parties in this debate right now is whether it is
possible for complex, gearhead design systems to coexist in the same rules
with simple, nongearhead systems.  You say no, he says yes.  If either of
you can prove or demonstrate your point to the other, the debate on that
should be settled.  Or you may want to agree to disagree, who's to say?

>
>>>>>>>*Neither* is acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in
>your unioverse.
>>>>>>>And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
>designs/ships.
>
>Of course! The GM should ban systems he doesn't want in his universe! 

>
>No Traveller GM I know of allows characters to be built with CT,
>MegaTraveller, GURPS Traveller or TNE. The GM *has* to pick and choose
>systems.

I agree, each referee should ban whatever they choose.  :->

Actually, I know at least one referee who would allow any of those
characters into his "Traveller" game.  He'd just make a few minor tweaks to
them, done in his head and guided by no particular rule system.  But that
really just supports what you're saying.

>
>I'm just asking for one more choice!

You lost me there.  I thought you have been saying that the gearheads are
asking for more choice, but you think an excess of choice is unworkable?
(i.e., you think it is impossible to write rules that include both the
gearhead and the simple choices?)

--Laning, putting on asbestos clothing
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:52:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:52:40 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <93.1833bd42.299ec108@aol.com>

In a message dated 15/02/02 04:13:13 GMT Standard Time, grote1731@hotmail.com 
writes:


> ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals" agreement 
> 
> with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal" with the 
> Imperium about the nobility?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 

I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it came to 
the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the Queen's 
Uncle) I think they simply knew what a public relations disaster it would be 
if they blew up Brenda.The Royals don't make policy so attacking them would 
have been purely a propaganda gesture - one that probably wouldn't have gone 
down well in certain parts of the world responsible for large amounts of PIRA 
fundraising.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:04:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
Message-ID: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

In continuing on trying to define "Normalcy" in
Traveller, we come to the second Characteristic
generated, Dexterity.  Here is the info and the
chart(s).  (Again, this is simply for discussion
purposes only.)

Paul


Dexterity:  There are two main areas that comprise
dexterity, physical contortion and manual dexterity. 
Physical contortion is how flexible the character's
body is.  Manual dexterity is the ability of the
character to use his fingers (toes? tail?) to
manipulate small objects.  These two areas are not
necessarily related, and may belong in two separate
variables, but for simplicity are both contained in
Dexterity.  Physical contortion will typically peak
between the ages of 10 and 15.  Individuals with high
Dexterity (10+) will experience little or no reduction
before aging effects.  Individuals with moderate or
low dexterity will see a drop in Dexterity between the
ages 15 and 18.  The drop will tend to be
proportionate to the final dexterity level.  Manual
Dexterity will tend to increase until age 18 and
sometimes beyond.

Dexterity Comparison Chart:
Val  Physical Contortion
 0   "He's a stiff, literally"
 1   Infant.
 2   "I can barely reach my belt to buckle it."
 3   "I can't touch my shoes, much less tie them."
 4   "Shoes, barely.  Toes, nope."
 5   "I can't dance."
 6   "I won't step on your feet, much."
 7   Good Dancer.
 8   Professional Dancer.
 9   Skilled Gymnast.
 A   Olympic Gymnast Competitor.
 B   Olympic Gymnast Champion.
 C   Circus Side-show Contortion.
 D   Jump "Rope" Through Clasped Hands.
 E   Jelly for joints.
 F   "Watch me slip into this Coke bottle."

Val  Manual Dexterity
 0   Nubs.
 1   Can't grasp anything.
 2   Can't grasp anything smaller than a basketball.
 3   Can't grasp anything smaller than a coffee mug.
 4   All Thumbs.
 5   Can use safety razor without injury
 6   Can Type 20-30 WPM.
 7   Can use strait razor without injury.
 8   Surgeon.
 9   Manually repair watches & electronics.
 A   Brain Surgeon by hand.
 B   Infant Surgeon by hand.
 C   Infant Brain Surgeon by hand.
 D   Third Trimester Fetal Surgeon by hand.
 E   Second Trimester Fetal Surgeon by hand.
 F   "Watch me manipulate this atom by hand."




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
>done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
>a few references to words and their translations.  If
>anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
>structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
>discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
>references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
>as well.  If you can send it off the list as I don't
>know that the raw data and discussion would be good
>for bandwidth.  I have some ideas and I'm trying to
>formulate them into something presentable, but I don't
>want to redo work that has already been done.

The basic sources are the Alien Module on the Vargr (AM3, I think) and
Digest Group Publications' book Vilani and Vargr.  They both have some
discussion of various Vargr languages.  The most common Vargr language in
use near Imperial space is called Gvegh.  There is a word generation table
in the Alien Module.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns
>about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now

New York Times, June 20, 2024:

Lhasa, Tibet:  Bob Foster, once an ordinary varsity wrestler from Oklahoma,
will be making Olympic judo history, now that the International Olympic
Committee has reversed its decision banning genetically enhanced athletes.
Customized new genes have changed Bob from a smiling farm kid to a gigantic,
hard-shelled, clawed and tailed, snarling behemoth, something reminiscent of
the last century's famous movie series called "Aliens".

That's on the outside, at least.  Inside, Bob says, "I'm still just me.  I
like driving in the country, fishing with my buddies, and country swing
dancing."

Most of the other judo athletes express confidence that they will take down
the new contender, who comes to his first Olympics after a string of
successes on the international judo circuit.  "Freak shows come and go,"
noted Jae Kunowara, coach of JudoJapan.  "We've been doing judo a long time,
and we'll keep doing it the same way."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Uniforms
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
>
>Some of the medals I received came with a miniture pin version of the
ribbon
>for wearing on civilian clothing, but I've never seen them worn.

My old friend Col. Steven R. Corbett, USA, refers to these as "what you wear
on your Sunday-go-to-meetin' suit."  I've never seen him wear them,
either -- but then, I don't think I've seen him in a Sunday-go-to-meetin'
suit in over 20 years.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:29:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
In-Reply-To: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:

> Dexterity:  There are two main areas that comprise
> dexterity, physical contortion and manual dexterity. 

Actually, there's at least four.  In addition to your list, we have:
reaction time/reflexes/speed (in games, mostly relevant to dodging and
snapshots)
hand/eye coordination (may be redundant with manual dexterity; in games,
important for use of weapons)
balance/agility (whole-body dexterity; covers most of what you list as physical
contortion).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:01:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:01:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Ancient Engineers
In-Reply-To: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215210349.SLNU319.dorsey@link>

I enthusiastically second Mr. Whipsnade's nomination!  Go to LKW's Web site
and follow his link to Amazon to buy it, if you can.  The book is not just
grand in its own right, but also a terrific source of ideas to use as seeds
or outright copy for stuff in your own Traveller game.

Less exciting and fun, considered more scholarly, there's also "Engineering
In the Ancient World" by ...ahhh I'm too lazy to go upstairs and get it
from my bedstand and read the author's name.  The title is unique enough
that you should be able to locate it.  Some math required.

--Laning
Mechanical engineers build weapons, Civil engineers build targets.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:31:24 +0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Different Tech Paths (was: Earth's economy...)
>
<<<SNIP>>>
>     L. Sprague de Camp's "Ancient Engineers", a book I heartily recommend 
>to everyone, describes all of this far better than I could.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:48:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD8@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

There's also an online version here:
http://www.glisten.demon.co.uk/
which I mirrored on my site:
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/reference/

Jesse



The basic sources are the Alien Module on the Vargr (AM3, I think) and
Digest Group Publications' book Vilani and Vargr.  They both have some
discussion of various Vargr languages.  The most common Vargr language in
use near Imperial space is called Gvegh.  There is a word generation table
in the Alien Module.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:35:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg

The artist is David Mattingly

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:40:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:40:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>

Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
brain.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>

If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your browser at
www.cameltoe.com
Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.

Ethan Henry wrote:

> "DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> >
> > Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm
>
> I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
> very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!
>
> AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
> and I'm still giggling.
>
> "Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
> your camel toe. Ouch."
>
> Ethan

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
So when George Bailey got his life back and the normal universe was
restored, what happened to those angels who got their wings when the
bar cash register rang in the alternate universe in which George was
never born?
-Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:55:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:55:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com> <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D83B5.86C00EB2@sitraka.com>

alan spik wrote:
> 
> If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your browser at
> www.cameltoe.com
> Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.

Sadly enough, without even opening my browser I know that it's .org
and not .com. The haikus are rather funny though.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:57:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215165345.00ac1da0@urbin.net>

Very nice.  Vargr, Aslan, flying things, shooting things...

All the ingredients for Fun in the Far Future!

Ok, Ok...I know that Kenji had a *different* list for the "raw, heady 
essence of interstellar civilization", but Traveller:D20 is supposed to ok 
for kids to play. :-)

At 04:35 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, Hunter Gordon wrote:

>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:40:10 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020216084010.A19421@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
[...5km/hr parking lot speed limit...]
> One can violate that speed limit by running through the parking lot, too.

In fact, one can exceed it by *walking* through the parking lot; but
pedestrians aren't operating vehicles and hence can't be fined.  Hmm
-- then again, I wonder if a shopping trolley counts as a vehicle?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:05:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:05:16 +1100
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
In-Reply-To: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020216090516.B19421@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
>  7   Good Dancer.
>  8   Professional Dancer.
>  9   Skilled Gymnast.
>  A   Olympic Gymnast Competitor.

That seems like a *very* compressed range in the higher end.  Isn't 7
meant to be average?  Just +3 and we're talking about 1-in-a-million.
By D, we're going beyond what's possible for humans, and by F we're
talking about Star Trek shapeshifters who routinely violate the laws
of physics.


>  9   Manually repair watches & electronics.
>  A   Brain Surgeon by hand.

Well, I have a good picture of what sort of manual dexterity it takes
to repair a watch and electronics by hand (done that for both).  'A'
I'm not so sure about.  Does brain surgery take inordinate amounts of
general manual dexterity, or is it rather steady hands and a lot of
very specialised knowledge?


B-F give me absolutely no idea at all of what a character could do
with each dexterity level, or how common you'd expect them to be in
the population.  Maybe you're a surgeon and know what level of
dexterity would be required to do this sort of thing, but I think most
of us aren't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:19:12
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>

The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
body we know?

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:11:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:11:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
In-Reply-To: <3C6D3031.1020404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6E3E57.24627.3F3710@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 8:58, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Letters Professor says he was misquoted
> 
> Carla McClain's article, "Jet fuel studied in Sierra Vista," that 
> appeared in the Jan. 26 Star, contained a misquote of my statements
> during an open meeting held in Sierra Vista on Jan. 20. McClain quotes
> me as stating, "We cannot prove that exposure to jet-fuel particulates
> will induce cancer in humans, but we know it does in animals."
> 
> In the meeting, I stated, "Exposure to jet fuel particulates in mice
> will cause a doubling of DNA micronuclei in both bone marrow and
> peripheral white blood cells, as well as an increase in mouse melanoma
> B16 tumors after we induce the cancer in the mice with injection of B16
> cells in the mouse tail vein."
> 
> I realize that these are complex scientific issues; however, I believe
> that Ms. McClain and the Arizona Daily Star need to be as accurate as
> possible when reporting these issues to the public.
> 
> Mark L. Witten
> 
> Research professor and director of the Joan B. and Donald R. Diamond
> Lung Injury Laboratory at the University of Arizona College of Medicine
> 
> Editor's note: The disputed quote matched the reporter's notes of the
> meeting."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
> cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer,
> to *help* cause it to happen'
> 
> ...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think
> jet fuel particlates do.

What I thought the actual statement meant was that the jet fuel 
particulates were aming already existing cancer worse.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:34:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

David Mattingly maybe?  :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:19 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
body we know?

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:39:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>

hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
illustration since their first CT appearance.

At 01:40 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
 <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215174004.00ac4bd8@urbin.net>

Didn't work for me.  http://www.cameltoe.org/ did.

At 04:36 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, alan spik wrote:
>If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your 
>browser at
>www.cameltoe.com
>Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.
>
>Ethan Henry wrote:
>
> > "DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> > >
> > > Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> > > 
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm
> >
> > I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
> > very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!
> >
> > AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
> > and I'm still giggling.
> >
> > "Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
> > your camel toe. Ouch."
> >
> > Ethan

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013813485.6966.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
> illustration since their first CT appearance.

Well, while most of them looked like a wolf head, they usually didn't look like
a direct paste of a photograph, which is what made me notice the problem.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:56:03 -0800
Subject: V&V illo?  RE: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

While the Vargr in the interior illos of V&V were crap (I REALLY wish Michael
Villardi [sp?] had done them), I thought the one on the cover was nice.  What
are everyone else's thoughts on that one?

Curious,
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin [mailto:urbin@bigfoot.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:39 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
illustration since their first CT appearance.

At 01:40 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D93F8.F2843080@attbi.com>



Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr
> illustration since their first CT appearance.

So... your saying ALL VARGR look alike to you....

Speciest....
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:55:26 -0700
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
References: <3C6E3E57.24627.3F3710@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6D91DE.5040807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> 
>>What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
>>cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer,
>>to *help* cause it to happen'
>>
>>...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think
>>jet fuel particlates do.
>>
> 
> What I thought the actual statement meant was that the jet fuel 
> particulates were aming already existing cancer worse.
> 

Well, it does, sort of.

Which proves my point exactly. The treatment he describes, in which 
animals are 'infected' with melanoma cells, is a test for cancer 
promotion/progression. Melanoma cells are already very aggressive and 
this test kind of tests a number of things dealing with promotion or 
progression.

Carcinogenesis occurs in roughly 4 (or 5 if you count metastasis as a 
separate step) stages:

1) Initial injury. This is the actual genetic damage caused by proximate 
or ultimate carcinogens.

Jet fuel is NOT, afaik, an ultimate or proximate carcinogen. A proximate 
carcinogen is something like 1,6 dinitropyrene, a stable polycyclic 
aromatic hydrocarbon that is metabolized to 1-hydroxylamino6-nitropyrene 
the highly unstable ultimate carcinogen that binds to DNA causing the 
genetic damage that leads to cancer.

(Actual chemical names are dredged from memory and may not be perfectly 
accurate; it's been about 12 years since I worked with this stuff)

This, btw, is the easiest of things to test for, since it can usually be 
done in the test tube.

2) Promotion. This is the process of keeping that genetic damage in 
play, usually by blocking normal repair mechanisms either directly or by 
causing rapid normal cell division, which 'fixes' genetic damage in a 
cell line by causing it to divide before repair can take place.

Saccharin is 'carcinogen' like this. Saccharin is NOT a carcinogen, and 
in normal dosages is unlikely to cause any damage.

However in very high doses it causes rapid cell division (hyperplasia) 
in rat livers, and if a cell is damaged by a real carcinogen during this 
processs the damage is fixed and the cell line continues to reproduce.

3) Progression, which is the least understood step, and the one that may 
take decades between exposure to the carcinogen and clinical symptoms.

This is the process by which a damaged cell eventually becomes 
cancerous, that is, reproducing without the normal growth controls on 
cells.

There are a variety of substances that are considered to aid in this. 
Some may bind to sites on the cell where normal control hormones do. 
Some may interfere in the immune system making it harder to find and 
destroy the cancer cells. Some may interfere in the production of those 
hormones. Some may interfere in other ways we don't know yet.

Jet fuel particulates are one of them. Maybe. The test Dr. Witten 
describes indicates that it might be.

4) Clincal cancer...a rapidly growing mass of cells that do not respond 
to normal gropwth controls or contact inhibition as do normal cells. 
There's a lot of stuff that assists in this stage as well.

4a or 5) Metastasis,where bits and pieces break off of the intial tumor 
mass and are transported around the body where they start growing there.

Other than the first step, the boundaries between all of the above are 
quite hazy, and things that are promotors may also aid in pregression, etc.

Now, explain this in 10 minutes in a public meeting which probably has a 
vastly lower academic achievement level than this list and is full of 
people who think it's this stuff that's making them sick.

"uuuhhh it's a tank!"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:04:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:04:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>
References: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200202151804060412.8B609A9B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


I do believe that is the artist himself. David works up the 3d sketches, and then uses real models (himself in this case) to render the final piece.

Hunter

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 10:19 PM John Lambert wrote:

>The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
>body we know?
>
>>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>>
>>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>>core book.
>>
>>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>>
>>The artist is David Mattingly
>>
>>Hunter
>>
>>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:57:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:57:25 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!

BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
hits on the wall ;-)

regards,
Stephan

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]Im Auftrag von Hunter Gordon
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 22:35
> An: tml@travellercentral.com
> Betreff: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
>
>
>
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly
>
> Hunter
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:57:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151757580893.8B5AFEFD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 1:40 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on? 

Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran wolves.

> If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient none-the-less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:17:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013815036.495.ajackson@ping>

Stephan Aspridis writes:
> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> 
> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> hits on the wall ;-)

Presumably, it's afterglow (or a targeting sight) since any weapons-grade beam
would be far brighter than that.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:08:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:08:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Aspridis [mailto:Anubis.5@web.de]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:57 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!

BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
hits on the wall ;-)

regards,
Stephan

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]Im Auftrag von Hunter Gordon
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 22:35
> An: tml@travellercentral.com
> Betreff: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
>
>
>
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly
>
> Hunter
>
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:15:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping> <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.
> 
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> 
> The artist is David Mattingly
> 
> Hunter
> 
> 

Nice.

<pickymode>

Hmmmm...

The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to 
low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.

This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less 
fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go 
along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some 
blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs 
some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look 
better.

The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the 
people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some 
work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.

The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to 
'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's 
all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the 
tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are 
identical. They need to have different patterns of light.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:10:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151757580893.8B5AFEFD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>

Hunter Gordon writes:
> Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
> resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
wolves. 

And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.

> > If nothing
> >else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a
> >sentient brain.
> 
> Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that
> would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger
brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient
none-the-less. 

The 50-100% increase in head size between 'wolf size' and 'human size' isn't
enough; the brain should be close to the size of a human brain.  It's not known
how intelligent neanderthals actually were, and they make up for the sloped
forehead with a distinctly enlarged hindskull.

Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:22:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:22:35 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F208GFKbM3d9wUP6Q1A0000f9e8@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it 
came to the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the 
Queen's Uncle)..."


Sir,

     Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter 
groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main 
movement.
     Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling themselves 
as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA" 
tried to keep up a bombing campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:24:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:24:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D93F8.F2843080@attbi.com>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215182353.00a768d0@urbin.net>

At 03:04 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Evyn MacDude wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr
> > illustration since their first CT appearance.
>So... your saying ALL VARGR look alike to you....
>Speciest....

At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:24:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>

Stephan Aspridis writes:
> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> 
> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> hits on the wall ;-)

Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
beams came from?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:35:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8934ba8a6a0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the 
>T20 core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter

It looked pretty good until I got to the people, esp. the Vargr...
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:11:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215150854.009fb970@mindspring.com>

At 10:21 AM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
>English k-niggets.

Sir, I will have you know that I come from a pleasing blend of English and 
Irish ancestry.  No genes French were involved in my manufacture.

Alas, my genetic heritage, coming from the Green and Pleasant Land and from 
the Northern Counties has left me with a curious handicap.  I continually 
to mail letter bombs to myself.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:46:52 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEEGCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
> Jesse
>
God forbids. Reminds me of when some players once got hold of a prototype
"crowd control device" and used it while trying to escape starport police:

P1 (pushes button and holds said device into general direction of the
pursuers): "Well?"
 (P2 to P5 all staring at him - bewildered)
P1: "What?"
P3 (takes a deep breath): "What? WHAT? See that?!? (points finger to the
smoldering ruins where once were a shopping mall, bureau of starport
security, said dozen starport police officers and about a hundred civilians)
What were you bloody thinking? You took out half the city including the
populace! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?"
P1 (looks into general direction of P3's finger): "To them? No need to.
Anymore, that is."

They found out that Famille Spofulam really has funny product codes, where
crowd has something to do with "many people (e.g. "mass")" and, well, we all
know Spofulam's definition of "control by applied force"...

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:33:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:33:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F211nVruILkBEVTWUKI0001c377@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215151634.009f9760@mindspring.com>

At 06:21 PM 2/15/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>     "Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of
>thing."
>
>     Any activity that relies exclusively on the subjective opinions of 
> officials and judges as the only way to score is not a sport.
>
>     "In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off
>the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking
>anything, you have to do it with GRACE, STYLE, and in TIME TO YOUR MUSIC." 
>(emphasis mine)
>
>     So, artistic presentation figures in the scoring system?  That's not 
> a sport.

Gymnastics isn't a sport?  Or, for that matter, any sport with a referee 
monitoring the game.  Ask any Oakland Raider fan about subjective opinions 
of officials affecting the outcome of a game.  Do this from a distance.

>     "The bar has been raised.. what was the standard for winning the 100 
> meters in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.
>In this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the edge."
>
>     No.  All you have do to is best your competitors at the time the 
> event is held.  Every gold medal sporting competition does not 
> automatically result in a new world record.  You beat the people you're 
> competing against and not the marks made in history or the continually 
> changing, completely subjective standards of "artistic merit".

So?  I've seen world-class track meets where everyone ran slow times for 
whatever reason.  All you have to do in baseball is beat the team at the 
time the game is held.  The trick is doing that enough times to reach the 
World Series.

>     All you need to do is jump higher or run faster and you win.  There 
> are no officials judging your performance according to entirely 
> subjective and completely nebulous "artistic standards".  Style, grace,
>and performing in time with your music need not apply.

Sorry, but you must not be a track and field fan.  There are judges 
watching every step of every race, waiting for any excuse to DQ an 
athelete.  Waving your arm into another lane, leaning to far forward in an 
attempt to break the plane of the finish, crossing too early in a distance 
race.. even lining up incorrectly in the starting blocks can cost you a race.

>     "Part of the requirement is to do it with style and grace.  That is 
> difficult in of itself."
>
>     The standards of style and grace are entirely subjective at the time 
> they are applied and by the people who apply them.  Running a course 
> faster than the other fellow isn't.  A homerun is a homerun is a 
> homerun.  Whether you hit onw gracefully or hit one looking like a sack 
> of sh*t doesn't matter in the scorecard because baseball is a sport.

LOL!  I've seen home runs turned into ground-rule doubles entirely because 
of the subjective opinion of the umpires!  This is why the NFL instituted 
instant reply reviews.. too many calls on the field were being called 
incorrectly, and costing teams games.

>     I'm not saying that figure skating isn't difficult or that it doesn't 
> require immense dedication and training on the participants part.  What I 
> am saying is that it isn't a sport.  It is something BETTER than a sport, 
> it's an artform.  Judging it, awarding prizes, choosing winners, all of 
> that denigrates figure skating.  Those acts lowers it to the level of 
> simple competition where it does not belong.
>     Figure skating should be treated better than that.

Figure skaters disagree.  I know some kids who are training to be future 
Olympians.  They train just as hard as future basketball or baseball 
stars.  They spend hours doing weight work, taking dance classes, and more 
hours on the rink just so that can have those few minutes on Olympic ice to 
show the entire world that they are the best.


>     "Michael Jordan can let his tongue hang out and react when he misses 
> a shot, but skaters have to keep smiling and not react, even when things 
> go wrong.  I saw a girl at the National Finals fall twice in her 
> routine.  She kept smiling until she finished, then broke down.  That 
> takes heart."
>
>     So, you're awarded points for aplomb?  What if she grimaced?  Would 
> her score have been lower?  What if she landed a more complicated jump 
> then her competitor, but grimaced as she did it?  Would her opponent, who 
> didn't attempt the harder, actual athletic feat, but kept smiling, 
> recieve more points and win?

She would have lost a tenth of a point in artistic merit.  The more 
complicated jump would have garned her more technical points, so she still 
would have ended up with a higher score.  It isn't 50/50.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:40:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:40:44 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815036.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215154017.009f6840@mindspring.com>

At 03:17 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Presumably, it's afterglow (or a targeting sight) since any weapons-grade beam
>would be far brighter than that.

Small plasma pistol?  Would explain the explosion.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:41:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:41:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:39 PM -0500 2/15/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
>illustration since their first CT appearance.

I've seen some good ones.  Though I can't say I've been thrilled with 
the ones in GT either.  (Though I would put them slightly ahead of 
this one).  The cover of the GDW Vargr Alien module wan't bad....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:46:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:46:53 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHCEEGCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small
> scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
> Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
> beams came from?
>
Famous last words? ;-)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:52:00 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215154137.009fa6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:24 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
>beams came from?

The phrase "L-shaped ambush" comes to mind.  They' probably dealing with 
attackers coming from two directions.

Y'know, looking at the entire picture, with the one woman caught in 
mid-leap into the G-carrier, I'm thinking that those two weapon bursts 
might not be so small.  We might be seeing the first instant of a larger 
plasma burst.  These two have a few fractions of a second to live.

And looking at the Vargr in total, he seems to be consistent with what has 
gone before.. look at the legs.  He has the extra joint and the long, 
digitgrade stance that we've seen before.  Canonically, Vargr have very 
human-like hands, they were designed this way so tools would be 
interchangable.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:58:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <010101c1b67c$a85dbd00$9532f7a5@pctframen>

My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give them
their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.

(Tongue seriously in cheek!)

Of course, just this sort of scenario was played out in the Whipsnade and
Ramen holovid, "The Road to Mithril," but that's another story...

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:11:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:11:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013818268.54.ajackson@ping>

Yet another observation:

There seems to be a 'boot heel' effect at the lower joint in the vargr's leg. I
don't think that should be there (actually, I think the boot should stop before
the lower joint; vargr probably wear boots going over the lower joint about as
often as humans wear boots going over the knee)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:22:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:22:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Hunter Gordon writes:
>> Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>> resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>wolves. 
>
>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.

No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.

>> > If nothing
>> >else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a
>> >sentient brain.
>> 
>> Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that
>> would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger
>brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient
>none-the-less. 
>
>The 50-100% increase in head size between 'wolf size' and 'human size' isn't
>enough; the brain should be close to the size of a human brain. It's not known
>how intelligent neanderthals actually were, and they make up for the sloped
>forehead with a distinctly enlarged hindskull.

Neaderthal brains were actually bigger than their human counterparts. Does that mean they were smarter? There are also animals with larger brains than humans. Does that make then sentient?

>Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
>dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.

Blame it on the ancients ;)

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:29:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <200202151929470995.8BAF0EEA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 4:15 PM Bruce Johnson wrote:

><pickymode>
>
>Hmmmm...
>
>The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to 
>low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.
>
>This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
>polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less 
>fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go 
>along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some 
>blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs 
>some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look 
>better.
>
>The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
>seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the 
>people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some 
>work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.

I think part of these problems stem from the fact that this is a JPEG taken from the original piece and resized to make it a bit more viewable over the net.

>The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to 
>'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's 
>all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the 
>tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are 
>identical. They need to have different patterns of light.

Heh, Marc made the same comment about the similarity of the towers. I meant to have them reduced in size but forgot. Looking at it now though I think they should stay. 

You are right though. I hadn't caught the symmetric lighting, but most of the upper portion of those towers will be covered by the book title.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:24:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:24:33 -0500
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151924330252.8BAA4174@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 3:24 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Stephan Aspridis writes:
>> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
>> 
>> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
>> hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
>beams came from?

That's what imagination is for!

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:36:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013819814.3145.ajackson@ping>

Hunter Gordon writes:
> 
> Neaderthal brains were actually bigger than their human counterparts. Does
> that mean they were smarter? There are also animals with larger brains than
humans. Does that make then sentient? 

They were marginally larger, but were lacking the forebrain which is apparently
extremely important for human sentience (which is, of course, a problem with
the dog head too).  The creatures with larger brains than humans are also
immensely larger creatures; there aren't any creatures with a brain to body
mass comparable to humans.
> 
> >Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
> >dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.
> 
> Blame it on the ancients ;)

Nah, blame it on the artist.  Simply blurring the image to make it look a
little bit less like a regular dog's head would be sufficient to remove the
most irritating parts of the picture.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:43:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:43:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE0E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <010b01c1b681$0af74c20$d7d5883e@fabian>



> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
esque
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of
land
> non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.<
>
> What is the "frontier" universe?

Way way back many centuries, in computer time that is, ago, a computer
game was released called Elite. 1982 iirc. This was the first space
trading game, and featured you in command of a Cobra Mk III fighter/trader
craft. You flew around the galaxy making money, killing pirates, and
ocassionally kiling Thargoids (alien meanies) or doing missions for
GalCop, the interstellar police.

A sequel, called Frontier, was released, and another sequel was released
in 1995, called First Encounters. The latter was released about 5 minutes
before Windows 95, and was DOS only, to many people's chagrin.

Numerous fansites exist for Elite. Start at www.alioth.net or
http://www.siroccostation.com/, and search around. The latter has some
nice images of teh various spacecraft.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:42:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:42:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20
core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly

I'm sure we'll still be wearing baseball caps in the 57th Century, but
probably not uniforms and insignia derived from those used by Terran navies
circa -2600.

The Vargr's thighs look like human thighs; they should be more canine.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:47:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:47:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter
>groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main
>movement.
>     Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling
themselves
>as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA"
>tried to keep up a bombing campaign.

In my current campaign, the Fifth Frontier War has just ground to a halt,
and the parties have agreed to return (more or less) to the status quo ante.
Some of the Ine Givar are giving up, some are regrouping, and some are going
to seize the initiative and try to break off at least one or two major
systems from the Imperium.  Members of the first and second categories may
become somewhat wroth with members of the third, for bringing Imperial heat
to bear on all of them.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:52:47 +1300
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6E642F.26112.D31353@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:15, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Hunter Gordon wrote:
> > For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the
> > T20 core book.
> > 
> > http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> > 
> > The artist is David Mattingly
> > 
> > Hunter
> > 
> > 
> 
> Nice.
> 
> <pickymode>
> 
> Hmmmm...
> 
> The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to
> low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.

I don't see that at all. By the point I'd blown the image up enough for 
this to be apparent _everything_ was looking like crap from being a 
jpeg.
 
> This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
> polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less
> fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go
> along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some
> blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs
> some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look
> better.

This is so, though - the whole building looks very 'Star Wars' - 
incredibly clean and smooth and a place only a mandman would stand in 
more than the slightest breeze.
 
> The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
> seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the
> people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some
> work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.
> 
> The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to
> 'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's
> all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the
> tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are
> identical. They need to have different patterns of light.

Now that you mentioned it - yep.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:42:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:42:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>
>At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)

Word from the Rim is that SolSec has abandonned the traditional 0300 knock
at the door and instead is cutting a hole in the ceiling and sliding down a
pole to effectuate arrests.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:52:47 +1300
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215150854.009fb970@mindspring.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6E642F.18284.D31345@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 15:11, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:21 AM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
> >English k-niggets.
> 
> Sir, I will have you know that I come from a pleasing blend of English
> and Irish ancestry.  No genes French were involved in my manufacture.

Now if you could explain how you're sure that the English parts of you 
weren't contaminated with French genes carried by a Norman who's 
parents had been a bit unchoosy about who they 'slept' with I'll 
believe you. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:08:13 +1300
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <3C6E67CD.19751.E13498@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 15:24, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> > 
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale
> > meson hits on the wall ;-)
> 
> Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction
> the beams came from?

Because that's not the only direction the threat's coming from, of 
course. They've just been caught in a bit of a cross-fire.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:14:09 +1300
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013818268.54.ajackson@ping>
References: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3C6E6931.3078.E6A193@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:11, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Yet another observation:
> 
> There seems to be a 'boot heel' effect at the lower joint in the vargr's
> leg. I don't think that should be there (actually, I think the boot
> should stop before the lower joint; vargr probably wear boots going over
> the lower joint about as often as humans wear boots going over the knee)

I'm sure I agree about a Vargr's boot length (and it's undoubtedly 
going to vary enormously across Vargr spance), but I don't like the 
'boot heel' either. A Vargr who can put that part of his foor/leg on 
the ground probably has a broken leg.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:24:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:24:13 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Hunter Gordon writes:
>>>  Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>>>  resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>>wolves.
>>
>>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.
>
>No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.

Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves 
(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from 
"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something 
like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically 
engineered.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:06:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020216020600.75012.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com>

Love it! Great stuff...who is in the pic? Is the vargr
based on anyone we know?
> 
> >From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
> >
> >For those interested, we just got the final cover
> artwork in for the T20 
> >core book.
> >
> >http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> >
> >The artist is David Mattingly
> >
> >Hunter
> >
> >
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
http://mobile.msn.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:14:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:14:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <3C6E642F.26112.D31353@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6DC07F.2E1D8158@attbi.com>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:15, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to
> > low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.
> 
> I don't see that at all. By the point I'd blown the image up enough for
> this to be apparent _everything_ was looking like crap from being a
> jpeg.

Look at the ligts for a dead give away. that compare the texture of 
the wall compared to the walk way out to the grav vehicle.

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:13:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:13:53 GMT
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3c6dbb8a.26426640@post.demon.co.uk>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

>The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
>like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
>Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  

Canheads?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:22:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:22:17 -0500
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork
 for T20)
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 5:24 PM David P. Summers wrote:

>At 7:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>
>>On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>
>>>Hunter Gordon writes:
>>>>  Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>>>>  resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>>>wolves.
>>>
>>>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.
>>
>>No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.
>
>Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves 
>(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from 
>"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something 
>like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically 
>engineered.

Ok so wolf or dog...only the Ancients know for sure! ;)

I don't disagree that it would seem there should be some evolutionary changes over that period, but apparently it didn't happen in the OTU. The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with a canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own unknown reasons.

The point is, the depiction on the cover is a fairly accurate as per previous Traveller material.

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:38:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>

   Well, overall, I liked the T20 cover; though it seems as if it certainly 
owes a conceptual tip of the hat to The Phantom Menace, IMO.
   A couple of things I didn't care for was the fact that the Vargr seems to 
have heels on his boots in the same place as humans do. Is he too broke to 
buy boots made specifically for Vargr. I don't think Vargr _would_ have heels 
on their boots anyway, as doggies tend to walk on their toes :)
   The other thing that bugs me is the joker with the Solomani hat looks like 
a pretty serious redneck---should JoeBob really have _that_ many front 
teeth?:)
  -Ken-



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:14:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:14:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
Tell me which details you find "insignificant."  For me to know how to
address your objections, I need to know exactly what they are.  Anyway,
here's the AuricTech Shipyards _Sentinel_-class scout/courier:
**end transmission**
I await your response.<

I'll try, but I'm not sure it works that way. I'm not talking about
insignificance in the 'output' but insignificance in the 'input'. In other
words, the simply system *could* produce the exact same ship - but be
easier to build! 

I thought the basic 'high-guard' outline of  QSDS was pretty close. I'll
take a closer look at this design with the TNE FF&S (isn't that the one you
refere to as FF&S2?).


>>>>>So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's 
>>>>>wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if
the 
>>>>>large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's 7' 
>>>>>tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more i
then 
>>>>>have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this 
>>>>>statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to 'guessitmate' 
>>>>>it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down. All in all having

>>>>>that stat save a bit of hastle.

Let's me get this straight. The player told you they were wearing a
waist-length coat - but they neglected to tell you that they were 7 feet
tall? ;|

The answer to the question is "Which makes the better story?". You pick an
answer based on that. 

But your saying that its *faster* and *less hassle* to figure out the
differential betweent the character's inseam, coat-length, height and
barrel length? Which book do you do that in? CT, MT? G:T, T4?

> >>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
> >>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and
> >>>>>>how easy to see it is.
> 

> >>>>>>And how do you tell if the other slightly bigger/smaller ship
beside it 
> >>>>>>is also in the same situation? What about a yet bigger or smaller
one? 
> >>>>>>Again you're making it up. 

Yes. GMing requires making things up. 

> >>>>>>There are a number of players around who 
> >>>>>>find it difficult to make assesments of situations they're
comfortable 
> >>>>>>with in games where so much is just 'made up' - it can feel
arbitary.

Make belief IS arbitrary! ;}

Look at what your talking about though - the distance between a hemline and
a long pistol and an SMG? Your talking about 12" inches of variance. 

You said yourself "Slightly" bigger/smaller ship. Again, why dont we have
seperate Arm Strength? Cause the different is only SLIGHTLY different!

How much difference could this possible make +1 bonus? +2 bonus? Trivial at
best. Tedious at worse. 

And remember, that if a gearhead player takes all of the simple ship design
rule and then retrofits measurements on them - that's fine. 

But that's a LOT different than a player adding more guns to a ship because
his is flat and all the GM's are round! Detail for background STORY
purposes is great. Detail for rule squeezing is the real hassell, IMHO. 

I would LOVE it if my players knew how exactly big something was in meters.
But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use Starfuries
because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma Projectors!" One is
good for the story. The other is bad for the story. 


>>>>But then I want to know if I can flip the door switch using the barrel
of 
>>>>my rifle, or use the weapon as an imprvosed cane.. why not just go
ahead 
>>>>and give the GM the info?

Because barrel length has very little to do with whether or not you could
any of those things. And so instead of giving the GM good info, your
bogging the game down with tedious trivia. 

> >>>>>>And I have had players, good ones mind you,  who would raise
specific 
> >>>>>>complaints about half of those hand waves.

Then you need to find a group that matches the GM's style. No problem.
Gamers who raised those complaints should have GM's who use FF&S or GRUPS
Vehicles or whatever they want.

I'm not saying that's okay. I'm saying that I dont want that. I dont want
to play with those gamers (cause no, they are NOT good players if they care
about such minutae for GAME RULING. They are rules lawyers at best.
Background detail yes. Rules lawyering no). 

> >>>>>>My take on this has always been to start with the detailed design
system, 
> >>>>>>then build easier, compatible versions.  GURPS does this nicely
with the 
> >>>>>>VE2 to modular design system we see in Traveller

This statement pretty much says it all. The problems with this approach are
pretty much well known by now I presume. If fact, there are web-sites
devoted to all the errors this system creates. 

Which one should I use for MegaTraveller? 

Though I'm only speaking for myself I feel pretty safe in saying that if
you think GURPS Vehicles sucks,  the modular ship building system in GURPS
Traveller doesn't suck any less! 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor wrote:
> The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
> use the simple system and this will never come up. 

>>>I imagine it would come up pretty often if they're in the same group.

Sure. But we're talking about the Ship Design System used by the GM. If the
gearhead player couldn't deal with a handwave about the "slightly bigger"
ship, he probably wouldn't want to play with the group. Should the
roleplaying GM adopt a complicated ship design system for this player? 

Or reversed, if the roleplaying player says he uses his belt to swing from
the chandalier and the gearhead GM asks him what his characters' waistline
in centimeters are then that player will probably not play with that group
that often. 

>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.

It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is confusing
you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".

You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system and a
person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how I'm
using the terms. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:14:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
Message-ID: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-226@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they
started
firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the cast.

I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
their adventures in space'

damn shame
<

Yeah, I just saw the episodes that made those changes and it was truly sad.


Unfortunately the success of Enterprise and Voyager has taught network
executives that those kind of changes work! 


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:30:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>
References: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 9:38 PM MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

<snip>

>   The other thing that bugs me is the joker with the Solomani hat looks like 
>a pretty serious redneck---should JoeBob really have _that_ many front 
>teeth?:)

You'd have really loved the original shot of the guy when he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt ;)

(Actually he still is, you just can't see it well in this version...)

The face I believe though is that of the artist himself. At least comparing it with the bio pic on his webpage tends to make me think so, and I do know he has used his own image as a model for other sci-fi novel covers he has done.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:39:01 +1300
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-226@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E8B25.11255.16B472E@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 22:14, Michael Taylor wrote:

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they
> started
> firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the
> cast.
> 
> I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
> their adventures in space'
> 
> damn shame
> <
> 
> Yeah, I just saw the episodes that made those changes and it was truly
> sad.

Bugger. It had considerable promise from what I've seen - Andromeda's 
screening here, but on pay TV only. :( We've only had four episodes so 
far, but everyone I know who's seen them liked it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:37:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:37:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E8AC5.2286.169D223@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 22:14, Michael Taylor wrote:

> I thought the basic 'high-guard' outline of  QSDS was pretty close. I'll
> take a closer look at this design with the TNE FF&S (isn't that the one
> you refere to as FF&S2?).

FF&S2 was for T4. FF&S1 was the one that went with TNE.

> >>>>>So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's
> >>>>>wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if
> the 
> >>>>>large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's
> >>>>>7' tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more
> >>>>>i
> then 
> >>>>>have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this
> >>>>>statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to
> >>>>>'guessitmate' it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down.
> >>>>>All in all having
> 
> >>>>>that stat save a bit of hastle.
> 
> Let's me get this straight. The player told you they were wearing a
> waist-length coat - but they neglected to tell you that they were 7 feet
> tall? ;|
> 
> The answer to the question is "Which makes the better story?". You pick
> an answer based on that. 

Gah. That's not a sufficient answer at all for many, many groups. 
Besides half the time it'll be asked way back when the character's 
first arming up and you have no idea whether it'll be better for the 
story for the gun to be concealable or not.
 
> But your saying that its *faster* and *less hassle* to figure out the
> differential betweent the character's inseam, coat-length, height and
> barrel length? Which book do you do that in? CT, MT? G:T, T4?

No, I'm saying that without the gun length stat any ruling is arbitary. 
In many groups arbitary rulings like that can make for unhappy 
characters.

When I said "what if he's 7' tall"" I actually meant "what if the gun's 
worn by another person, who is 7' tall?" Though now that I think about 
it it's a bad example anyway.

> But that's a LOT different than a player adding more guns to a ship
> because his is flat and all the GM's are round! Detail for background
> STORY purposes is great. Detail for rule squeezing is the real hassell,
> IMHO. 

Sure. I see your point. I just think that simple or not so simple a 
design system should cough up plenty of numbers - they're easier to 
ignore than add later.
 
> I would LOVE it if my players knew how exactly big something was in
> meters. But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use
> Starfuries because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma
> Projectors!" One is good for the story. The other is bad for the story. 

To me the last one's embarrasing - it implies I screwed up somewhere.

> Which one should I use for MegaTraveller? 

High Guard, of course - it fits in nicely. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:22:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:22:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
>
>My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
>that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
>make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
them
>their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
>emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.

Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
dominate it?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:35:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013720711.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEELPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Anthony Jackson wrote :
> Sure, the existing TL rules are definately more fun
> from a role-playing perspective.  However, if you're
> going to apply  rationality to your universe
> (admittedly, rather optional for a RPG), the default
> TL rules don't make any sense, at least not for a setting
> which has had a stable government and trade for the last
> thousand years.

I disagree.

The big point you have to remember about TL, is that it is the
level of technology that is _regularly_produced_ on that planet,
not the level of technology regularly _used_ or the level of
technology that _could_ be produced if absolutely neccesasary.

In other words it represents the sorts of things the planet is
likely to export and sets an idea of the local cost of various
things.

For instance, a TL5 world could regulalry use air-rafts. It just
doesn't build them on planet, and it imports the parts.

The reason it has such low local TL ?
It's a Ducal game reserve, and the Duke doesn't want industries
set up to ruin the environment, and anyway, he brings everything
he needs with him when he visits.

But the planet has a large population ?
Oh, well that means that the planet is local centre for the Amish
Catholics, who reject innappropriate technology use

Etc.

The point about stable trade actually makes it more likely that
TL will vary, as with stable trade there is not the same need to
produce everything on planet, and a TL 3 world could just import
_everything_, perhaps it's a tourist or agricultural world, and
has no culture or production capability of it's own to speak of.
Like New Zealand, for example.

New Zealand is a good example in another respect too. We export
computer programmes,  but we don't produce computer hardware (as
a rule, anyway). That puts us at a TL below that required to
produce computers, even though large numbers of people have
computers and we have a thriving software industy.

Also, we have one or two small producers, such as Tait
Electronics that produce higher TL electronic goods, but the
majority of this is for export to specific countries or
distributed to specific industries, it's not common for an
ordinary man-in-the-street to be able to purchase a Tait radio.
Thus, for Traveler TL determination, the fact that we do actually
produce these things is irrelevant, because your average
adventurer can't walk into a shop and buy a locally produced one.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:35:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <20020215002137.LXDR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGELPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Laning wrote :
>
> This is not at all right.  Has anyone in the press
> picked up on this story yet?
> The part about "no Pepsi, Coke" should get the
> press' interest, if nothing else.

Not any more.
It was big news when it happened at the Sydney Olympics, but now
it's just standard policy for sporting events.

Both the IOC and the IRB (International Rugby Board) even tried
to force all teams to use the same make of shoes in international
games. Quite apart fromm the fact that would have meant most of
the big teams couldn't play because they were already sponsored
by someone else, there are individual athletes, usually the best
ones, who refuse to wear branded shoes, because they get them
hand made for them by individual craftsmen.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:22:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:22:26 +0000
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F12shPmsHYcO86t7oRs0000d0d6@hotmail.com>

At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
     "For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
the T20 core book."

     "http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg"


Mr. Gordon,

     Nice piece of work.  Not exactly my cuppa, but it's big, it's flashy, 
it's eye catching (not to mention eye watering), and it should hopefully 
lure the legions of D20 players into Our Olde Game.
     If the idea was to coax folks into giving Traveller a try, you folks 
have succeeded.  After all, all that over-the-top Warhammer artwork must be 
part of it's popularity, right?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:36:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Bra-ZILLLLLLLL!
Message-ID: <a1.22b09d49.299f49de@aol.com>

> >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>  >
>  >At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)
>  
>  Word from the Rim is that SolSec has abandonned the traditional 0300 knock
>  at the door and instead is cutting a hole in the ceiling and sliding down a
>  pole to effectuate arrests.

Yeah, well, that's Information Services for ya.

LKW

Great flick. I don't know about anybody else, but I thought the star 
(Jonathan Pryce?) looked like a young Alec Guiness?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:43:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:43:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping> <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <a4rr6uo9kimk7m2j5caj3jebvb7icvb3mt@4ax.com>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:35:25 -0500, "Hunter Gordon"
<trav@RPGRealms.com> wrote:

>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly

Generally a nice piece of work.  There are some nit-picky details that
I would want to mention.

I'll point to the general discussion about our friend Vargr and
consider it enough said.

Gearhead mode:
The two parallel ray beams are exactly horizontal indicating the fire
is coming from exactly stage left, while both foreground characters
are aiming a guesstimated 30% forward of that point and something over
the viewpoint's left shoulder.  Either they foolishly ignoring an
immediate threat, or they haven't noticed it quite yet.

I would have considered pointing one of the foreground characters in
hat direction of fire.  This would permit one charater to appear in
three-quarter view and the other in profile and appear to make it a
much more dynamic encounter with threats and fire from multiple
directions.

Our foreground characters appear to be using some unspecified form of
"blaster" that is neither a laser (note the bursty flare near the
human's firing barrel), nor a conventional firearm.  These can't be
traditional Traveller energy weapons as they lack the necessary power
cable for either a laser or F/PGMP, and they aren't firearms as they
are producing an obvious beam.  Chalk this one up to artistic license.

However, I particularly like the action going on in the midground.
The flyer, though showing some suspicious wings and air intakes, looks
like a reasonable approximation of an enclosed air-raft.  It took a
second look to recognize the Aslan standing in the doorway, but it is
a nice feature for the sharp-eyed Traveller fan to notice.  The
leaping woman(?) with cape also looks well done given the size of the
image.

The background ships are nice window-dressing, but are probably
standing in for a greater amount of smaller vehicular traffic one
would normally expect in a city of such a tech level.  Depending upon
their distance from the scene, they might be too large for comfortable
landing on a planetary surface.

In sum, despite my statements above, I think it is an eye-catching
design and, with the title in place will prove to be an attractive
cover for the book.  It will stand quite well in comparison to other
competing publications.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:32:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:32:46 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers
Message-ID: <f4.16d94eef.299f48fe@aol.com>

> You are right though. I hadn't caught the symmetric lighting, but most of 
the 
> upper portion of those towers will be covered by the book title.

One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, because 
that's where the title goes. Sometimes it can be a real problem picking a 
color for a title that can 
1) be read easily,
2) won't get lost in the background, and
3) Looks good

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:45:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Naval Assignment Definitions
Message-ID: <cb.1d89e4bc.299f4be3@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   I've been going through my MT Player's book recently, reacquainting myself 
with the rules in preparation for restarting my Trav campaign.
   Anyhow, while looking over the Enhanced Naval Character stuff (originally 
in High Guard), I got to wondering just what the definitions for the 
different yearlong assignments listed on the Assignments Table actually 
_are_. 
   I could've _sworn_ there were definitions for them at _some_ point, but 
reading over the MT stuff, as well as looking through my old copy of HG again 
left me clueless :(
   Anyhow, while some Definitions seem pretty obvious, others have me kind of 
wondering...
Battle:
Siege: 
Strike:
Patrol:
Shore Duty:

  -Ken-
    


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:55:24 +0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6CE3AB.6090206@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEDKEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Well at least the monkess are unlikely to be from the Von Braun!
Monkeys with attitudes

Antony

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 06:54:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:54:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
> >
> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
> >them their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods.
> >The team that emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>
>Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
>dominate it?

Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 07:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:46:33 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Genengineering (Was: Olympic Alternatives)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10202160940570.31000-100000@kosh.hut.fi>

A bit off-topic, but might be relevant.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: CHam628781@aol.com
> >Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns
> >about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now
> New York Times, June 20, 2024:

Read the GURPS Transhuman space (came into store near me last week). 

After one reading, it seems very good, and provides thought for Traveller
as well, even though most technologies are of course more advanced;
computers, gene technology and nano stuff comes to mind immediately.

The book is set in 2100, and concerns have advanced to whether uplifted
animals (and biological androids, AIs, and more) are people or not. 

Sorry about the ad, but the book was good. B-)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:05:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:05:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F138YtdSHYwHnx9FMAt0001a1d4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E12C6.A33F7A31@sympatico.ca>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>
>
>      "...as a professional referee for the sport of Paintball, judging can
> be a real pain."
>
> Mr. Stasica,
>
>      Professional paintball matches?  Details, man, details!

At the risk of boring the members of this list, I would prefer to take this
off the TML.  Suffice to say I have and continue to ref and direct the judging
of event where first place for a 5 player team is 5 (brand new - less than 10
km - 6 miles (I believe) cars.  Or 10 player events where a cash prize of
$50000 is not amiss for 1st place.  This is not a typo or as good as it looks
considering it would typically be spit more than 10 ways, alternates on a 10
player tournament roster.  And each one of these individuals is obviously
taking time off of work and travelling (sometimes international distances -
plus accommodations).

>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

Simple details, 3-4 days events per division (3,5,7, or 10 player teams) often
divisions overlap.  Pre-set fields for 6-8 game prelims, fields change during
Semis and again during Finals.

This is not the in the woods game you may have played.  This is high end
Amateur and Professional Paintball, and bears very little resemblance (on my
reffing side of the fence) to real in the woods paintball.

I must admit I do not know where to begin with details, what I find trivial
may be of the utmost importance to some.  If there is no complaint, I will
entertain (almost) all questions regarding this SPORT!!! (shouting Intended- I
will defend this portion on the TML if need be).

My favourite anecdote is when I approached several insurance (local - quite
laughable,  if you want the background i.e. big names backing local companies
) companies here in Canada and was politely informed that they do not insure
AGAINST WARS. (again shouting Intended)

What's to be said, I get paid by my Reffing Business to travel to new places
and watch people 'shoot each other'.

Michael




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:00:53 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10202160959550.31000-100000@kosh.hut.fi>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)
> 

Chalk one keyboard kill for Doug.

(And we could be better in regular skiing too, if not for the doping mess
last year...)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:07:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6E1342.B89DAA08@sympatico.ca>

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
> >
> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
> them
> >their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
> >emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>
> Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
> dominate it?
>
> --Glenn

World War II?

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games inthe many
 TU's
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
 <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225232.009fc510@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E1676.C7D08633@sympatico.ca>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:23 AM 2/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
> >Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other
> >Tropical
> >destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they
> >must be
> >happy just for the competition.
>
>  From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had
> never before swam 100 meters, never even seen an Olympic pool representing
> his country.  He was wearing plain swimming trunks, and the other people in
> his heat (who were at the Olympics under a program to allow developing
> nations to place athletes in sports the nation isn't known for) both
> DQd.  So he swam alone.  The most painful, awkward 100 meters you ever
> saw.  We were wondering if he was going to make it at all!
>
> But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally
> touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a
> medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/olympics2000/swimming/newsid_931000/931508.stm

Thank you.  You have finally explained what I saw (muted in a bar) in  passing but afraid
to refer to without understanding.  Again this is a better representation of the Olympic
spirit of sport in my opinion.

Thank you again for the cite.

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <memo.896259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <010101c1b67c$a85dbd00$9532f7a5@pctframen>
Greetings dear hearts.

All sports are artificial.

They can be fascinating to study, to perform or to watch. If you happen to 
earn your living at them, then naturally they assume a certain importance 
to your life; likewise if they are a consuming hobby (as participant or 
spectator).

Listen to someone who is enthusiastic about ANY sport and you will find an 
amazing collection of information, facts, speculations....

... surprisingly similar to a role-player in full flood about the game 
system of their choice :-)

My students are almost all football (soccer) fans - indeed most of my 
fellow teachers are too. It bores me silly. I doubt many of them would be 
much more interested in Traveller... (although a few do ask about this 
'role-playing' that I get up to).

What's really fun is getting someone who is knowledgeable and enthusiastic 
about anything to talk about it. Even if the subject itself isn't one that 
interests you much. Who knows when it might come in useful.

Sports, their participants and their fans can be a fruitful source of 
adventure topics for your games too. In my Traveller games, there's a mix 
of 'traditional' sports like athletics, gymnastics (including the 
micro-gravity variant) and target shooting with different weapons; team 
games of all kinds - kabbadi is a fun one to throw at players in a low-g 
environment! - both 'real' and invented (rollerball, of course, features 
here, also hockey, various ball sports, etc.) and the 'combat' sports - 
martial arts, fencing, etc. Some of you may recall I wrote a scenario 
about a world where fencing, and duelling, were very important to the 
inhabitants.

Characters can be embroiled in all manner of things - bodyguarding 
sportsmen, gambling scams, being mistaken for sports stars, just attending 
a sporting event and getting caught up in whatever is going on there... 

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <memo.896260@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

At a first glance I thought, "Well, Okay..." - but to be honest cover art 
isn't that important to me. I know that the marketing droids will claim it 
has something to do with sales, so it's worth paying attention to, though 
:-)

Further study begins to draw out the flaws. In many ways that's a good 
thing. Okay, what am I on about? It shows the strength of Traveller, that 
we can see things in a purely imaginary picture and shout, "Wrong!"

Most of the flaws have been mentioned already - Vargr anatomy (no worse 
than it's ever been, apart from those boot-heels!), the Hawaiian shirt, 
the over-symmetrical towers, pixellation caused by use of an enlarged JPEG 
- but I find that the perspective is way off. Compare the ground the 
figures in the foreground are standing on to the 'landing pad' strut... 
it's far too narrow and flimsy, even with the anti-gravs going  at full 
pelt you couldn't land a ship on the pad at the end, it's too small!

Overall, though, it gives a good impression of what Traveller is about to 
the casual glance. It ought to get folk to whom the concept (rather than 
the name of the game!) appeals to pick the book up and investigate 
further... and when all is said and done, that's what it's for :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <memo.896261@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3C6E12C6.A33F7A31@sympatico.ca>
Greetings dear hearts.

The concept of 'Paintball as sport' looks like a good one for Traveller 
games...

... and Michael's account makes me wonder why I turned down an invitation 
from the local team to join them :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 11:13:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:13:00 +0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216190610.00a07cb0@localhost>

Hi y'all!

I often find myself disagreeing with Bruce's opinions, but in this case, I 
largely agree.  Also, some of the towers in the background are a little too 
simplistic in their modeling -- the lemon-shaped tower in particular.  More 
complicated modeling would make them look more realistic to modern 
eyes.  The two ships (?) in the background also look too flat.

Also, it's too bad the ships on the landing pad aren't more canonically 
Traveller.

BUT, 1) it's a very good shot in general -- I like the woman jumping for 
the shuttle, and 2) it's supposed to be final, isn't it?  This kind of 
nitpicking may be too late to be of any use.

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:54:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:54:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light
Message-ID: <000c01c1b6d8$532e02c0$ae7f893e@fabian>

Does anyone have electronic (preferably pdf) copies of the following
Traveller rulebooks? As you may know, I'm about to go to Japan, and I'm
looking at ways of maintaining my Traveller addiction while keeping within
a very tight weight limit.

Yes, I am aware that electronic copies are technically a copyright
violation. I am asking *only* for electronic copies of books that I
already own and have paid for legally. I have no interest in selling my
original paper copies or in redistributing electronic copies. If this
still sits uneasy with anyone who is concerned about copyright law, then
please send a single polite private email to let me know your opinion and
then leave it at that. No flame wars on the topic.

I am willing to quote extensively from any of these books to demonstrate
that I really own them. Other forms of demonstration, including scans sent
privately, will be entertained.

Anyway, the books in question are:

TNE: Main rulebook
TNE: Fire, Fusion, and Steel
T4: Fire, Fusion, and Steel
TNE: World tamer's Handbook
GURPS: Space
GURPS: First In
TNE: Vampire Fleets
TNE: RC Equipment Guide

No, that isn't my complete collection, it is just what I consider the core
gearheading supplements :)

Uh, I guess this shows my bias for TNE.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 11:18:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:18:22 -0000
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <F12shPmsHYcO86t7oRs0000d0d6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010701c1b6db$a9b52a80$ae7f893e@fabian>



> At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>      "For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book."
>
>      "http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg"

My tuppence:

The twin towers' lights are to synchronised. And why aren't there lights
over teh entire length of those towers anyway? Not necessarily room lights
though, but in pragmatics, it looks liek prime advertising space.

The vargr head and teh human head in teh foreground look too
phot-realistic compared to the rest of the image. Also, the vargr's left
hand looks slightly too large, misdrawn, and isn't realy doing anything
useful.

Someone asked earlier, so I'll tell. The weapons they are carrying are
obviously Rhialto Foundries' TL 16 plasma pistols :) And I agree they are
shooting in the wrong direction. Let the buyer speculate.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 13:16:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:16:53 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <ae.2269263f.299fb5c5@aol.com>

In a message dated 15/02/02 23:33:08 GMT Standard Time, grote1731@hotmail.com 
writes:


> 
> 
>      "I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it 
> came to the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the 
> Queen's Uncle)..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>      Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter 
> groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main 
> movement.
>      Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling 
> themselves 
> as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA" 
> tried to keep up a bombing campaign.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 

The murder/assassination of Mountbatten was a sanctioned PIRA attack. It was 
not carried out by a breakaway faction and took place on the same day as 18 
British soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb and a British Army band was 
attacked in Brussels, tending to suggest it was part of a co-ordinated series 
of actions.

PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact claim 
to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful m
urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
attack on Mountbatten.

Although PIRA was quite prepared to murder civilians/accept collaterall 
damage in its campaign it was also politically astute enough to know that the 
PR consequences of murdering a member of the Royal family. If it had thought 
benefit would accrue from killing Brenda or her spawn it would have attacked 
them.

ObTrav: I think Ine Givar would love a crack at the Imperial family, after 
all they are the ones with the ulimate political power. However they probably 
also know that the consequences of such an action would be err, bad.
    
Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 13:33:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:33:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Ships Monkey
Message-ID: <3C6E5FAD.9D1796B6@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>

Two words:  Mojo Jojo

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 14:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:42:45 +1300
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <ae.2269263f.299fb5c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6F26B5.13415.1DE385B@localhost>

On 16 Feb 2002, at 8:16, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
> bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
> PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact claim 
> to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful m
> urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
> attack on Mountbatten.

Close, but not quite correct. The saga of IRA factionalism is 
something truely befitting Monty Python (except that murders and 
maimings aren't real funny).

The first split was between the Pro and Anti Treaty factions in 
1922. The Pro-Treaty faction won (becoming the regular army of the 
Free State) and the Anti-Treaty faction took over the identity of the 
IRA.

The IRA revived in the 40's and 50's but by the late 60's had 
become marxist and its leaders wanted to move away from armed 
struggle to politics. This lead to the 1969 split between the 
Provisional IRA (PIRA) and the Official IRA (OIRA). This was 
followed by a bloody feud between the PIRA and OIRA

The OIRA finally did declare a ceasefire in 1972 (thats with regards 
to the British, the OIRA and PIRA didn't stop fighting until much 
later).

In late 1974 the PIRA was convinced by Catholic and Protestant 
clergymen to extend its Christmas truce (it eventually lasted for 
seven months and was a military disaster for them). Out of this 
came the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA). It drew defectors 
from both the PIRA and OIRA and was marked by a round of 
bloody infighting between the OIRA and INLA (eventually to include 
the PIRA making it a three way shooting match).

In 1986 a split developed in the INLA which created the Irish People 
Liberation Organisation (IPLO). This lead to yet more dead, 
infighthing and general killing. The IPLO declare a ceasefire in 1994 
and the INLA in 1998

The next split came in 1988 when the PIRA abandoned the 
principle absentiontism (where PIRA candidates would stand in 
elections but refuse to recognise the parliment or take their seats if 
elected). This created the Continunity IRA (CIRA) and the by now 
traditional blood feud and round of fraternal killings.

In early 1996 the 94 ceasefire collapse and the PIRA resumed 
terrorist attacks against the British (they had never abandoned their 
sidelines in bank robbery, protection rackets and blood feuds with 
other factions). But in 1997 a new ceasefire was arranged which 
lead to yet another split creating the Real IRA (RIRA).

Of course this sting of splits and factions is similarly mirrored on 
the "loyalist" side with the murderous representatives from the 
UVF, UDA/UFF and LVF.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 16:29:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:29:46 -500
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <200202161636.g1GGaTG13251@sun.ebtech.net>

No it was a case of providing maximum firepower and manoeuvre 
opportunities at the lowest level.  Each fireteam had a BAR and 
was lead by a corporal.
 
> From: Rupert Boleyn 
> > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > > (page 44 sidebar).
>  > 
>  > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> 
> "How many Marines does it take to change a light-bulb?"
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 17:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:15:01 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0202161810361.38731-100000@svati>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

>At 08:22 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
>> >
>> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
>> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
>> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
>> >them their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods.
>> >The team that emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>>
>>Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
>>dominate it?
>
>Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)

Seems like it's us norwegians that dominate the sport these days.
Biathalon is actually a military sporting event that driftet into
the private sector so to say. During the early parts of the 20th
century there were several large games were the best soldiers
attended and one of the competitions were biathalon. The best in
that sport were the alp/winter regiments of course.

And biathalon is a hard sport, run around very fast for ten minutes
take a rifle and try to hit five 5cm targets while your pulse
is above 100 :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 18:52:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:52:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202152154.g1FLsgr04702@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020216185249.19208.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Couple of observations, nits, and kudo's:

Observations:
1.  Very similar to the descriptions and images of
Coruscant from the Star Wars saga.  Not necessarily a
bad thing, just an observation.

2.  The combination of the towers and the angular
building is very NYC. (YMMV)

Nits:
1.  I have to agree that the Vargr head is a bit TOO
doggy for me.  I want to toss him a doggy biscuit.  Of
course, that may be what Vargr are supposed to look
like, but to me, at least, it does seem a bit
disproportionate.

2.  The boot's heel is a problem.  Unless it is
supposed to be decorative, because there is no
functional reason for it to be there.

3.  The upper incoming beam should be hitting
something.  The angle it is coming in at, with it
traveling between the Sol and Vargr, it should be
hitting the Sol's elbow.  Or the Vargr's
head/shoulder.  Coimparing their upper body with their
lower, somebody should be hurting.

Kudo's:
1.  I can see a group of players in this situation
VERY easily.  As such it is very Traveller.

2.  Regardless of when and where they were used in
that past or future, I happen to love the outfits. 
(And yes, I did notice the Hawaian shirt.)

3.  Overall a good coverart picture.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 19:12:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:12:41 +0800
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>

Hi all!

My next 3D project is going to be doing the interior of the /Bonaventure's/
hab rings -- interior views of a starship's spinning crew habitat, that
is. While looking for references, I found a couple interesting things on
the Net that others might be interested in:

<http://www.kochnewtonandpartners.com/pages/sale/starship/starship.htm> 
This is a real ship, called the /Starship/, which is a smallish cruise
vessel. The illos, though, are very useful.

<http://www.yachtwalk.com/vr_scenes/vrViewer.asp?ID=333&PID=93>  This is a
virtual walkthrough of the above.

Check 'em out.

Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 20:53:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:53:44 -0700
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <memo.896260@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MailDrop1.2d7k-PPC.1020216135344@ppp23.pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT) mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:


>Most of the flaws have been mentioned already - Vargr anatomy (no worse
>than it's ever been, apart from those boot-heels!), the Hawaiian shirt,

Watch it...that character actually resembles my PBEM character far too
closely...he's got some very nice shirts, even the Vargr think they're too
loud! ;-P


Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:14:52 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <94.21a00d83.29a025cc@aol.com>

In a message dated 16/02/02 14:52:15 GMT Standard Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:


> On 16 Feb 2002, at 8:16, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
> 
> > bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
> 
> > PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact 
> claim 
> > to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful 
> m
> > urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
> > attack on Mountbatten.
> 
> Close, but not quite correct. The saga of IRA factionalism is 
> something truely befitting Monty Python (except that murders and 
> maimings aren't real funny).

The IRA are not (quite) that factional, although they have split from time to 
time. Certainly they know how to have a good row over who is the true carrier 
of the Republican flame.

> 
> The first split was between the Pro and Anti Treaty factions in 
> 1922. The Pro-Treaty faction won (becoming the regular army of the 
> Free State) and the Anti-Treaty faction took over the identity of the 
> IRA.
> 
> The IRA revived in the 40's and 50's but by the late 60's had 
> become marxist and its leaders wanted to move away from armed 
> struggle to politics. This lead to the 1969 split between the 
> Provisional IRA (PIRA) and the Official IRA (OIRA). This was 
> followed by a bloody feud between the PIRA and OIRA

I thought the split, like that of 1986, was over abstentionism rather than 
involvement in politics per se.

> 
> The OIRA finally did declare a ceasefire in 1972 (thats with regards 
> to the British, the OIRA and PIRA didn't stop fighting until much 
> later).
> 
> In late 1974 the PIRA was convinced by Catholic and Protestant 
> clergymen to extend its Christmas truce (it eventually lasted for 
> seven months and was a military disaster for them). Out of this 
> came the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA). It drew defectors 
> from both the PIRA and OIRA and was marked by a round of 
> bloody infighting between the OIRA and INLA (eventually to include 
> the PIRA making it a three way shooting match).
> 
> In 1986 a split developed in the INLA which created the Irish People 
> Liberation Organisation (IPLO). This lead to yet more dead, 
> infighthing and general killing. The IPLO declare a ceasefire in 1994 
> and the INLA in 1998
> 
> The next split came in 1988 when the PIRA abandoned the 
> principle absentiontism (where PIRA candidates would stand in 
> elections but refuse to recognise the parliment or take their seats if 
> elected). This created the Continunity IRA (CIRA) and the by now 
> traditional blood feud and round of fraternal killings.

September 1986, and described by Brendan Hughes, a PIRA veteran thus 
"Everything was done to avoid a split but at least, for the first time in 
Irish history, they didn't split by shooting at each other."(1) 

CIRA is essentially the military wing of Republican Sinn Fein (RSF) who are 
the group who actually split, led by Ruairi O'Bradaigh (who had been 
instrumental in the creation of PIRA). CIRA developed later and didn't launch 
a significant operation until 1996*, hardly making it a big player.

> 
> In early 1996 the 94 ceasefire collapse and the PIRA resumed 
> terrorist attacks against the British (they had never abandoned their 
> sidelines in bank robbery, protection rackets and blood feuds with 
> other factions). But in 1997 a new ceasefire was arranged which 
> lead to yet another split creating the Real IRA (RIRA).
> 
> Of course this sting of splits and factions is similarly mirrored on 
> the "loyalist" side with the murderous representatives from the 
> UVF, UDA/UFF and LVF.
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
> 


Charles

*Possibly because PIRA had made sure those loyal to it had control of the 
arms dumps

(1) Quoted in Peter Taylor's "Provos"

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:33:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BE3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFL!!!  OUCH!!!!!
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Aspridis [mailto:Anubis.5@web.de]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:47 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


> Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
> Jesse
>
God forbids. Reminds me of when some players once got hold of a prototype
"crowd control device" and used it while trying to escape starport police:

P1 (pushes button and holds said device into general direction of the
pursuers): "Well?"
 (P2 to P5 all staring at him - bewildered)
P1: "What?"
P3 (takes a deep breath): "What? WHAT? See that?!? (points finger to the
smoldering ruins where once were a shopping mall, bureau of starport
security, said dozen starport police officers and about a hundred civilians)
What were you bloody thinking? You took out half the city including the
populace! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?"
P1 (looks into general direction of P3's finger): "To them? No need to.
Anymore, that is."

They found out that Famille Spofulam really has funny product codes, where
crowd has something to do with "many people (e.g. "mass")" and, well, we all
know Spofulam's definition of "control by applied force"...

regards,
Stephan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:28:11 -0900
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote

> Couple of observations, nits, and kudo's:

> 1.  I have to agree that the Vargr head is a bit TOO
> doggy for me.  I want to toss him a doggy biscuit.  Of
> course, that may be what Vargr are supposed to look
> like, but to me, at least, it does seem a bit
> disproportionate.

Vargr heads are supposed to look very wolf like. The
problem with this head is that it's too _big_. Vargr
are smaller than humans and their heads are proportionately
smaller yet the Vargr's head looks to be the same size
as the humans head (it looks a little bigger but the
Vargr is a little closer), this is wrong. Where is
this Vargr's neck?

> 2.  The boot's heel is a problem.  Unless it is
> supposed to be decorative, because there is no
> functional reason for it to be there.

The Vargr is wearing a military uniform. 'Obviously'
the (mostly human) military in question has published
specifications for all its military footwear requiring 
them to have heels. The fact that Vargr boots don't need
heels is less important than the fact that regulations
require boots to have heels. ;)

-- 
He who will not reason, is a bigot; he who cannot is a 
fool; and he who dares not is a slave."        
-- Sir William Drummond 

Peter Newman         pnewman@gci.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:32:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BE2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good references.  I've downloaded a ton yacht interior designs from the archives of a boating or yachting online magazine, but I can't find the link at the moment because it was from Speedvision's website BEFORE they turned into The Speed Channel (silly change).  Boat deckplans & cabin shots as well as those for larger RV's are VERY good references for starship stateroom designs.

If anyone's interested I can look into the possibility of posting an archive of the pics I've collected to my website.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Kronick [mailto:rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Staterooms


Hi all!

My next 3D project is going to be doing the interior of the /Bonaventure's/
hab rings -- interior views of a starship's spinning crew habitat, that
is. While looking for references, I found a couple interesting things on
the Net that others might be interested in:

<http://www.kochnewtonandpartners.com/pages/sale/starship/starship.htm> 
This is a real ship, called the /Starship/, which is a smallish cruise
vessel. The illos, though, are very useful.

<http://www.yachtwalk.com/vr_scenes/vrViewer.asp?ID=333&PID=93>  This is a
virtual walkthrough of the above.

Check 'em out.

Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:31:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:31:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6ECFC0.BBD39C23@mindspring.com>

You are correct!
Rachel Kronick wrote:

> <snip>Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms
> were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual
>
> -- Rachel

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Women, can't live with them, can't have heterosexual sex without them
-Dick Sullivan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 22:02:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <memo.904719@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.

That brings back memories - a friend crewed on the Starship in 1999... 
some kind of semi-scientific, semi-documentary sort of thing. She was 
supposed to do popular science writing. As she only had a buck-a-minute 
satellite uplink web connection, I did all the research for her :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 22:45:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:45:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Ships Monkey
In-Reply-To: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020216224515.15700.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

Let the master of the toteboard denote an additional
keyboard kill for Dan.

> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:33:33 -0600
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
>
> Two words:  Mojo Jojo
>
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 23:14:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:14:36 -0600
Subject: [TML] looking for stuff...
Message-ID: <3C6EE7DC.EF706DB1@mail.cswnet.com>

1. A while back someone put up a webpage that had sector data,
world data, and allowed you to look at all worlds within 6pc
of a world, showing BTN's and trade routes...

And now I can't find it. <sniffle> If someone out there knows 
the site address can you repost it, pretty please?

2. A LONG while back someone else did a study on scoutrons in
5FFW. How many type S's where in the 0-3-4 squadrons, etc.
I can't find this either <outright crying> If someone out there
knows where this is, could they repost it, pretty pretty please?

3. Posted some time ago: 
>How and why did the name for the Sulieman class scout ship come about? >Is it named after Sulieman I of the Ottomans? Or is their a Mr >Sulieman, naval architect, or something/someone else?
Still looking for info and/or thoughts on this one. Would there
be anything about it in the Gurps SuliemanII deck plans?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP March

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 00:30:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:30:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202160338.g1G3cWo28765@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020217003255.FOR319.dorsey@link>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 at 22:14:38 -0500, Michael Taylor
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: T5
<<<SNIP OF DEBATE WHERE OPPOSING POSITIONS ARE BECOMING FIRMLY ENTRENCHED>>>
>
>>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
>It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is confusing
>you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".

This part still bothers me.  I am a role player, and a story teller, and
whatever other synonym you wish to employ.  I am also more gearhead than
almost everyone I've ever gamed with, which is a lot of people.  Did you
read my earlier post that describes gearheadedness/nongearheadedness as one
spectrum, and roleplayerness/nonroleplayerness as a completely different
and unrelated spectrum?  Desire for detail and desire for a good story are
two completely different things.  I think you're making an important
mistake to consider roleplayer or storyteller or whatever as mutually
exclusive with gearhead.  Just because you personally may be a strong
roleplayer and not a strong gearhead (taking a guess this describes you)
does not mean the two things go hand in hand.

>
>You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system and a
>person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how I'm
>using the terms. 

Fair enough statement, but it sure hasn't been sounding that way to me.

--Laning
God is real, unless explicitly declared integer.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 01:06:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:06:14 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEFBCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> >>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
> >>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
> It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
> confusing
> you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
>
And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist". Then we
have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my observation is
one of the most fundamental in gaming.

Just for protocol I consider myself a simulationist. It maybe good for the
story if my character should scream being tortured by a cattle prod. But
HT15, High Pain Threshold and some extra hit points costed much points so I
insist the GM takes that into account, namely that said prod does just some
trickling. IMO (but that's just me) storytelling style is just an invitation
for a GM (myself included) to nudge players around. Not possible if the
rules cover everything.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 04:04:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:04:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: Final Cover for Traveller T20
Message-ID: <F252uI5BrxJuLpTkmHY00022838@hotmail.com>

OK, I'll jump in.

Note that the best artwork I've ever published anywhere
is a line-drawing of a starship on a personal web page.
This image is far better than anything I could do, and
I love the action going on with the g-carrier(?) at the
grav pad.

That said, here's what I noticed.

The foreground heads.  Jarringly photorealistic, compared
to everything else in the image.  Such an irregularity of
style is very noticeable.

Those incoming energy bursts...are they a deliberate homage
to the horizontal stripe that graces Classic Traveller
covers?  They look too precisely parallel to the "ground"
(and to each other) otherwise.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 04:49:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:49:47
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F23s0jee6y24SSZV7Qb00003530@hotmail.com>

There have been several comments about the Hawaiian shirt. I always thought 
that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of the more colorful (pun intended) 
quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on page 25 of JTAS #9 showing a bearded 
man in a baseball cap with a "staple" gun pistol wearing a Hawaiian shirt. 
(I always wondered if it was meant to be Marc.) The signature on the drawing 
is "c 1980 Paul Jaquays (sp?)". The sketch is in black and white, but the 
shirt is drawn in red. I've seen this sketch reproduced in other Traveller 
books.

If I ever make it to one of the Traveller gatherings, I was planning on 
wearing a Hawaiian shirt per this sketch.

John L.

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>...
>You'd have really loved the original shot of the guy when he was wearing a 
>Hawaiian shirt ;)
>
>(Actually he still is, you just can't see it well in this version...)
>
>...

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:50:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Ethan Henry writes:
>In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
>has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
>infrastructure.
>[...]
> - it only takes one moderately rich local to equip at least one hospital
>ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's simply enlightened self interest
>at the very least...

That's if you think TL indicates the highest available to anyone on the
world. I've always interpreted it to mean the TL of the majority of the
population. Private hospitals reserved for the elite and military hardware
for the elite's bodyguards and imported gravspeeders doesn't affect the
life of the majority of the population. It most especially doesn't
indicate the repair and support network a casual visitor to the world can
expect to avail himself of (which is what I think TL is _for_, at least in
a meta-sense; as a player I like to know what sort of equipment I can
expect to be able to buy and as a GM I like to know what sort of equipment
I can have my everyday locals tote.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:37:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:37:26 +1000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <00b001c1b777$bc370c40$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
>  From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had
....
> But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally
> touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a
> medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.

Unfortunately, someone subsequently bothered to check who he was.

He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling Equatorial
Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather than serious
participation.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:52:00 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c1b777$bd7d9600$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      They either can't use them "properly"; i.e they don't want to try and
> hide the existance of the required 100+ rocket depot from the Isrealis or
> can't hide it long enough, or they don't want to use them "properly", i.e.
> flattening a settlement with 100+ rounds of HE will REALLY bring the IDF
> hammer down.
>      Of course, given how desperate they feel things are getting in this
> latest round of Intefada(sp), anyone want to bet that they don't begin
> using them "properly"?

One thing that comes to mind here is who owns the rockets launchers in
question?

You may be confusing Hezbollah (based in Lebanon) with the PLO, Hamas, and
so on.  Hezbollah is allied to various Palestinian groups, but isn't one
itself.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:51:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:51:53 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <00b101c1b777$bcdee500$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other
> Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that
> brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they
> killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked
> airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.

They were beaten.  The deal they made was a surrender, like the Irish "peace
process", or a bunch of others.  Basically, you concede most of the big
issues, like the right of refugees to return, in order to receive a few
concessions, which you use to quieten down the outrage of your supporters.

> ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals"
> agreement with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal"
> with the Imperium about the nobility?

Not IMTU.

But the "good guy" Ine Givar faction doesn't usually do assassinations much,
anyway.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:28:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:28:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Two Landgrab Questions
Message-ID: <F167gESvBp8ZKxsu9cE0000aa79@hotmail.com>

Hello.  I've got two TML Landgrab related questions.  There's a system out 
in Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C).  I'm not sure of its 
canonicity, but I do remember getting the system's name, location, UPP and 
allegence code (Cs) from one of the Traveller lists some years ago (1998?).  
Given that, I need to ask:

1. Is there any canonical data on this system?

2. Would I be able to landgrab this system?

Thanks for the info,

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:52:55 +1300
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEFBCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
References: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C700A17.14032.1DD57D@localhost>

On 17 Feb 2002, at 2:06, Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> 
> > >>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
> > >>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
> >
> > It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
> > confusing you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
> >
> And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist".
> Then we have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my
> observation is one of the most fundamental in gaming.

Ah, but what about the gamists? This has been an old favourite on 
rec.games.frp.advocacy for the six years I've been on-line and longer.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:59:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:59:51 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork
 for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
 <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b89500153797@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>  >Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves
>>(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from
>>"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something
>>like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically
>>engineered.
>
>Ok so wolf or dog...only the Ancients know for sure! ;)

Actually, probably from some common progenitor.

>
>I don't disagree that it would seem there should be some 
>evolutionary changes over that period, but apparently it didn't 
>happen in the OTU.

Why do you say this?  Traveller has always made it fairly clear some 
evolution occurred.

>The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with 
>a canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients 
>decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own 
>unknown reasons.

They should have a "fairly" wolf like head with, perhaps, small but 
significant changes to depict increased expressiveness and other 
changes (such as those that allow speech, a unchanged canine head 
wouldn't allow speech)

>The point is, the depiction on the cover is a fairly accurate as per 
>previous Traveller material.

There are some that are no better (to be fair, a good Vargr seems to 
be hard to do) but I've seen some which where significantly better. 
For example, I prefer the left Vargr on cover of the GDW alien 
module.  It shows a "wolf like" head with sentient expression.  To 
me, a picture of a wolf on a human body gives you a wolf head on a 
human body, not a Vargr (it misses to much of what separates a Vargr 
from a dog.)
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 08:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:13:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #159
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170856420.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" writes:
>     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular
>Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this
>thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!

In two separate campaigns I've attempted to get the players interested in
the Spinward Marches Boloball Championship by having a sweepstake on their
ship. The idea was that I could generate the results of the games and use
it for filler in my campaign newspaper (I also had a vague idea that at
some point the PCs' ship just might stumble across a misjumped ship
carrying on of the finalist teams. Who knows? Stranger things happen in
space ;-).

In both cases the idea flew like a lead balloon both times. None of the
players were in the least bit interested. However, just so that it wasn't
a total loss, here is the lead-up I wrote for the second try.


---------------
As most of the crew is assembled in the crew lounge after dinner, Chip
Uamdar looks up and asks: "Hey, Captain, are we going to have a boloball
sweepstake on the _Sphinx_?"

Rolf Barker says, "A boloball sweepstake? What's that?"

"Well, there's this game called boloball, you know," Uamdar explains.
"It's really popular and there's a special sector-wide league where teams
from all over the sector competes. Sixteen of the biggest systems have
teams. There's Regina, of course, and Efate and Jewell, and Mora and
Rhylanor and Glisten and Lunion and... uh..."

"Strouden and Vilis and Porozlo and Fornice," Josh Freed adds.

"That's right," Uamdar continues. "And Zivije and Edenelt and Equus and
Pallique. How many is that? 13... 14... 15... There's one missing..."

"Trin," Alishia Simmons adds laconically.

"That's right, Trin! How could I forget the Tyrranosaurs," Uamdar
exclaims. "Anyway, they have this tournament where they compete for the
sector championship. A sweepstake is a lottery where each crewmember buys
as many tickets as they like at 10 or 50 or 100 credits a pop -- whatever
you agree on -- and then you put a ticket with each team name in a
hat and add enough blank tickets to make up the number. You have a draw
and if you get the ticket with the team that eventually wins, you win the
money everybody paid into the kitty."

"What are the rules?" Rolf Barker asks.

"Oh, it's the usual sort of anti-G ballgame with a few twists. The field
is a wire cage 10 m high, 10 m wide, and 30 m long. You have two teams of
9 men each: two Low Rovers, two High Rovers, two Leftsiders, two
Rightsiders, and a Swot. Each man has a grav belt that maintains his
personal gravity field. The Low Rovers are aligned towards the bottom, the
High Rovers towards the top, the siders towards their respective side and
the Swot is neutral, so he  can "fly" anywhere and maintain any
orientation. The rest are only under 1/3rd G and they have "jet boots" so
they can trigger jumps (Only the 'jets' are just holographic effects and
it's the grav belt that does the jump). The ball is a hollow 3 kg steel
sphere the size of a grapefruit and everybody have magnetic gauntlets... a
grapefruit? About yea big. There's a small circular goal in the center of
each end wall and the object of the game... oh, you get the point, do you?
That's about all there is to it, except that at random intervals the
G-orientations switch 180 degrees. Great fun to watch, but you need a
strong stomach to play. You can't take any nausea medication, of course."
---------------

Anybody who likes the idea, feel free to use it...


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 15:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chauncey Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:40:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light
References: <000c01c1b6d8$532e02c0$ae7f893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <000301c1b78e$8039df80$2c14fea9@ultra2000>

there was a project to make a traveller CD rom of all the GDW stuff some
years ago.
but I think it's fallen off the mark.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fabian <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>
To: Traveller ML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 5:54 AM
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light


> Does anyone have electronic (preferably pdf) copies of the following
> Traveller rulebooks? As you may know, I'm about to go to Japan, and I'm
> looking at ways of maintaining my Traveller addiction while keeping within
> a very tight weight limit.
>
> Yes, I am aware that electronic copies are technically a copyright
> violation. I am asking *only* for electronic copies of books that I
> already own and have paid for legally. I have no interest in selling my
> original paper copies or in redistributing electronic copies. If this
> still sits uneasy with anyone who is concerned about copyright law, then
> please send a single polite private email to let me know your opinion and
> then leave it at that. No flame wars on the topic.
>
> I am willing to quote extensively from any of these books to demonstrate
> that I really own them. Other forms of demonstration, including scans sent
> privately, will be entertained.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 08:37:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:37:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] T4 question
Message-ID: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

What are people's opinion of the T4 supplement Imperial Squadrons?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 09:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:08:23
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
Message-ID: <F143ojj6yiscG5ix7w200020b5d@hotmail.com>

I've always preferred the Vargr, Aedzouk, on the cover of the DGP V&V book, 
although he does have heels on his boots.

There is a good description of the long term evolution of the dog/wolf 
family at:
http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm
Compare that timeline to the Traveller Vargr timeline.

Dogs are a very recent derative of the gray wolf and their DNA are almost 
identical. See the January 2002 National Geographic. One of the most 
interesting features of the canis family is its genetic flexibility to adapt 
its size, coat, etc. to meet a wide variety of environments. It is that 
flexibility that has permited the development of the wide variety of dogs in 
a few thousand years. That is why I would argue for some variations among 
the Vargr.

John L.



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 10:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:22:05 +1300
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <010b01c1b681$0af74c20$d7d5883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOENBHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Fabian wrote :

> Way way back many centuries, in computer time that
> is, ago, a computer game was released called Elite.
> 1982 iirc. This was the first space trading game,

While I love "Elite", it was not the first.
There were similar games on the TRS80 before the BBC was ever
released.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:09:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Naval Assignment Definitions
References: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6F8F5F.57E39FAF@ameritech.net>




> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:45:07 EST
> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Subject: Naval Assignment Definitions
> 
>    Hi gang,
>    I've been going through my MT Player's book recently, reacquainting myself
> with the rules in preparation for restarting my Trav campaign.
>    Anyhow, while looking over the Enhanced Naval Character stuff (originally
> in High Guard), I got to wondering just what the definitions for the
> different yearlong assignments listed on the Assignments Table actually
> _are_.
>    I could've _sworn_ there were definitions for them at _some_ point, but
> reading over the MT stuff, as well as looking through my old copy of HG again
> left me clueless :(
>    Anyhow, while some Definitions seem pretty obvious, others have me kind of
> wondering...

Please note that these are not in any way official. Just my
understanding of the terms.

> Battle:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in at least one
encounter with opposing fleet elements.

> Siege:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in
blockade/interdiction of a world. This duty may have included space
combat, orbital bombardment, and/or occasional small scale landing
operations. Note that the operations undertaken in this duty tend to be
on a lower order of intensity than the missions represented by Battle
and Strike duty.
 
> Strike:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in extensive
bombardment and/or a major landing operation against a planet. 

> Patrol:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in routine
anti-piracy or frontier patrol operations that did not result in large
scale combat operations. Patrol could be of a single system or showing
the flag across a subsector, sector, or domain.

> Shore Duty:

Character was assigned to planetary facilities as support personnel at a
base or starport.

HTH

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:24:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <memo.912311@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3C700A17.14032.1DD57D@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would describe myself as a role-player above all else... but for me, 
part of that is creating and inhabiting as 'real' an alternate reality as 
I can manage :-)

So, does this help or hinder the debate?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:39:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:39:54 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16cPeq-0007B7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:

> >The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with a
> >canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients
> >decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own
> >unknown reasons.
> 
> They should have a "fairly" wolf like head with, perhaps, small but
> significant changes to depict increased expressiveness and other
> changes (such as those that allow speech, a unchanged canine head
> wouldn't allow speech)

Also, they need a significantly larger cranium, Vargr don't have wolf-
size brains, they have human-sized ones and I'd dearly love to see 
a picture that depicted them with a forehead bulging up from behind 
their muzzle (or perhaps a skull that is wedge-shaped and flairs 
towards the back).

Are there any drawings of Vargr out there that give them anything 
other than un-modified wolf heads?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 13:12:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:12:38 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1b7b4$caae4760$f7158690@computer>

> From: "Alan Bradley"
> One thing that comes to mind here is who owns the rockets launchers in
> question?
>
> You may be confusing Hezbollah (based in Lebanon) with the PLO, Hamas, and
> so on.  Hezbollah is allied to various Palestinian groups, but isn't one
> itself.

Oops!  I wasn't quite following what you were talking about.  I thought you
meant all the toys Hezbollah et al have on the Lebanese border, not the ones
actually in the Palestinian territories.

Cerebral flatulence, in other words.  Ignore me.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 14:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:08:09 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1b7bc$a4e6ac40$f7158690@computer>

> From: "Robert Kondrk"
> Hello.  I've got two TML Landgrab related questions.  There's a system out
> in Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C).  I'm not sure of its
> canonicity, but I do remember getting the system's name, location, UPP and
> allegence code (Cs) from one of the Traveller lists some years ago
(1998?).
> Given that, I need to ask:
>
> 1. Is there any canonical data on this system?
>
> 2. Would I be able to landgrab this system?

Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.

You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is that
we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
no reason why we shouldn't.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 14:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:50:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020217155028.5e8d534b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the
> T20 core book.
> 
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> 
> The artist is David Mattingly

Go David !   I like the cover.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:15:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:15:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] T4 question
References: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C6FE548.F1315E45@premier.net>



knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> What are people's opinion of the T4 supplement Imperial Squadrons?

I think it's pretty good.  It includes rules for generating squadrons
that are compatible with the _Fifth Frontier War_ board game; IMHO,
that's worth the price right there.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:19:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
Message-ID: <F17519VMczi9yzu23Li0000ae76@hotmail.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
>Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.
>
>You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
>anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is 
>that
>we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
>no reason why we shouldn't.

Excellent. :) In that case, I'd like to officialy landgrab Hollis (Foreven 
2523).  I'll have an URL and the first data uploaded sometime during the 
week.

Thanks,

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:52:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:52:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Staterooms
Message-ID: <3C6FEDF5.3986851B@mail.cswnet.com>

>Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
>were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

Yep. SOM has Crew and Passenger stateroom illos for the Type A Free
Trader, and a lounge area. I think Signal Gk and Safari Ship each have 1
small B&W illos of a lounge room [trophy room in Safari ships case]. 
I haven't seen any illos of Type S scout staterooms though. I'd love to
see what those look like. [HINT]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP March

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 16:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:34:42 -0000
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
References: <E16cPeq-0007B7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000201c1b7dc$30b15260$fa6b893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: <sneadj@mindspring.com>

> Also, they need a significantly larger cranium, Vargr don't have wolf-
> size brains, they have human-sized ones and I'd dearly love to see
> a picture that depicted them with a forehead bulging up from behind
> their muzzle (or perhaps a skull that is wedge-shaped and flairs
> towards the back).

I disagree.

Thjere isn't any particular reason why a vargr should have a human sized
brain. Neanderthals had larger brains in an equivalent physical frame, but
no one ever accused them of being geniuses. They simply didn't use their
brains as efficiently as our direct ancestors. Perhaps vargr have smaller
brains but the brain volume is 'wired' more efficiently.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 18:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:23:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
In-Reply-To: <F17519VMczi9yzu23Li0000ae76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6FA0A7.13844.65ADAE@localhost>

On 17 Feb 2002 at 12:19, Robert Kondrk wrote:

> >From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
> 
> >Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
> >Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.
> >
> >You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
> >anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is 
> >that
> >we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
> >no reason why we shouldn't.
> 
> Excellent. :) In that case, I'd like to officialy landgrab Hollis (Foreven 
> 2523).  I'll have an URL and the first data uploaded sometime during the 
> week.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob K.

Bob have you seen the web pages and I found that Hollis is from Imperial 
Lines #1.
http://zho.berka.com/data/foreven/reidain/galactic.html
http://zho.berka.com/data/foreven/xenough/galactic.html
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/sec/eb.foreven.pdf
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/sec/eb.foreven_sec.html
http://www.panpub.com/traveller/sectors/foreven/
http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/opal/opal10511.html
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk/trav/camp/mortalcoil/reidan.htm
http://tml.travellercentral.com/archive/122001/msg01000.html

Sinbad Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:04:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <F23s0jee6y24SSZV7Qb00003530@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>

At 04:49 AM 2/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
>There have been several comments about the Hawaiian shirt. I always 
>thought that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of the more colorful (pun 
>intended) quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on page 25 of JTAS #9 
>showing a bearded man in a baseball cap with a "staple" gun pistol wearing 
>a Hawaiian shirt. (I always wondered if it was meant to be Marc.) The 
>signature on the drawing is "c 1980 Paul Jaquays (sp?)". The sketch is in 
>black and white, but the shirt is drawn in red. I've seen this sketch 
>reproduced in other Traveller books.

So there is.  While Jaquays is *not* my favorite person in the field for 
many reasons (ask me about the Central Casting books some time at a Con 
when I've had a few.. you'll get an earful!) This does seem to establish 
that the Hawaiian shirt has survived.  No wonder The Rule of Man fell.

You know who would love these things?  The Vargr.  Hell, the probably make 
most of the shirts sold in the Coreward portions of the Imperium.  Probably 
called Vargr shirts there.  I can picture fraternities having Vargr shirt 
parties.

>If I ever make it to one of the Traveller gatherings, I was planning on 
>wearing a Hawaiian shirt per this sketch.

We'll make one of the con parties the Vargr fashion show.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:13:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:13:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <00b001c1b777$bc370c40$9a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217110443.009ff5e0@mindspring.com>

At 03:37 PM 2/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
>He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling Equatorial
>Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather than serious
>participation.

Then he could have DQ'd like the others and enjoyed his holiday.  Instead 
he tried.  And how many associates of dictators work as pool boys?

And did that have anything to with what he did?  Or do you just like 
dissing other people's accomplishments?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:45:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:45:30 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #167
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003201c1b7eb$a91f8fa0$9ca45940@dixienet.com>

Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C)From: "Robert
ndrk"<rkondrk@hotmail.com>
Subject: Two Landgrab Questions

Any info on this, sector?subsector, path to SM Sector, Core Sectors
is also wanted by me.......John Strain

missinjn@dixie-net.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 21:24:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:24:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Naval Assignment Definitions
Message-ID: <18f.37defcc.29a17979@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/02 5:16:14 AM Central Standard Time, David offers 
some opinions as to Naval Assignment definitions:
   Thanks very much for the input. Anyone else, feel free to give any sort of 
input :)
   Thanks again :)
  -Ken-



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 21:27:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:27:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEOFCAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm claiming Biter, in the Sword Worlds Subsector

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 00:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:26:09 +1100
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1b812$dd1fb790$9307b286@Shane>

In the spirit of morbid overanalysis, I'll just offer an observation of my
own.  I'm sure this matter was not addressed deliberately by the image's
Creator.  Not on any conscious level, anyway.

Is it just me, or does the halo of sun behind the human combatant's
(artist's) head have disturbingly biblical overtones?
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Do ya believe in the Messiah..?
Well, do ya?
Punk?
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 00:51:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:51:11 +0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <F30aYY61LEdyt3cew8k000126cb@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Unfortunately, someone subsequently bothered to check who he was."

     "He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling 
Equatorial Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather 
than serious participation."


Mr. Bradley,

      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up on 
a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some Third 
World Thugocracy for their votes.
     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about 
what's in it for us!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 01:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:21:15 +1100
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <OFC38545A4.0F7CB538-ONCA256B64.0005EDFD@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Michael asked:
>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I have some at Beowulf Down, at Tavonni Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> 
Hyphen's Combat Rules ==> Weapons Tables ==> Weapons Tables. (Sorry it's 
buried so far in; maybe I should pretend I'm a good Solomani and "uplift" 
it?  ;-)

The entries marked as "UPDATED" will have at least one weapon that's 
available as a DGP-style equipment sheet, written up as a PDF file. For 
example, the "Le Mat" revolver in "Early Firearms", or the Gauss Rifle 
under "Rifles".

There's also some battledress available, again in DGP-style format but 
this time as a zipped Word file. Look in Tavonni Specialities ==> 
Menelvagor Ltd ==> Imported Goods.

Finally, another item that will undoubtably become important (since you 
insist on pursuing this line of enquiry) is also available as an Imported 
Good: the *medikit*.

;-)  ;-) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 01:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:48:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <F30aYY61LEdyt3cew8k000126cb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:51 AM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:

>      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up 
> on a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some 
> Third World Thugocracy for their votes.
>     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about 
> what's in it for us!

You have to kidding.  Hell, the only reason there were cameras running was 
a technical rehearsal for a later event!

I can't believe how some people think!  An amazing thing happened, the 
world embraced this guy who did something he had never done before in front 
of a sellout crowd and did his best.  Can we accept it at that, and admire 
the guts it took to actually swim?  Or must we tear down every 
accomplishment looking for something bad?  Hell, JFK got a medal for the 
PT-109 incident, and all you can do is gleefully recite who he was sleeping 
with back in the States!

Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250 
meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But 
here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and we compete 
in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It will 
also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under those 
conditions?

Let me explain something sir, there are dozens of ways he could have DQ'd 
and just enjoyed the trip.  He could have taken cold medicine and failed a 
drug test.  He could have dived before the start.  Hell, he could have just 
not bothered to show up!  All of the these would remove him from the 
competition.

But he didn't.  He did show up.  He put on his trunks.  He got on the 
block.  And he swam.

He swam, Larsen.  He swam like his life depended on it.  It was awkward as 
hell, but he did a racing turn, and headed back, visibly tired.  He could 
have stopped moving and ended it, but he didn't.  Instead, he swam.  When 
he finally reached the end of the pool, he slapped the wall with all the 
gusto of the Thorpedo.

It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little 
information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since 
1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual 
relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was 
once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a car 
loan, and have polyamorous relationships.

There, when the book comes out, if anybody praises it, you can diss my 
achievement with some ammo.  After all, it isn't the achievement that 
matters, it is everything about the person's life that matters.

To everybody else, sorry about the rant, but when I read this I felt my 
blood pressure shoot up about fifty points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 02:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:11:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <OF1B3FCEA3.15AF7BA0-ONCA256B64.000A6EBA@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce commented on John Groth's find:
>>Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
>>nourished).
>>
>>http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html
>
>Ohhh.....my.....ghodd.....my keyboard..it's, it's GONE man!
>
>It just vanished when the coffee hit it....how will I get the blast 
>marks off the wall...and I need new sinuses, too...
>
>see: http://www.monkeybagel.com/pumas.html

The other page that might be of interest to Doug, in particular, is:
        http://www.monkeybagel.com/culture/food.html

However, since the link from that page to the product under discussion is 
broken, try here once you've visited the first link:
        http://www.peppermints.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 03:01:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:01:47 +1100
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c1b828$9af03280$9307b286@Shane>

Mr Berry admitted:
> It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was
> once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a
car
> loan, and have polyamorous relationships.

I dunno, man.  Maybe it's the PR officer in me talking, but I'd call these
things *good* publicity.  :P
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "Unleash your Inner Marketer" - Tapes now available
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 03:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:22:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <013e01c1b828$9af03280$9307b286@Shane>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217221840.017843e8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:01 PM 2/18/2002 +1100, Shane Slamet wrote:
>Mr Berry admitted:
> > It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> > information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> > 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> > relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was
> > once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a
>car
> > loan, and have polyamorous relationships.
>
>I dunno, man.  Maybe it's the PR officer in me talking, but I'd call these
>things *good* publicity.  :P


Hell Man!  I'm amazed the DNC has not approached Mr. Berry to talk him up 
for running for Congress.
With his demographics, he could carry the SF district in landslide.

Excuse me please, James Carville was on Meet the Press this morning.  I may 
not agree with him on much, but *DAMN*, that man is good!
I'm gonna have to watch "The War Room" again (yes, I am enough of a poly 
geek to own "The War Room" on DVD.)


>_____________________
>Shane K. Slamet --- "Unleash your Inner Marketer" - Tapes now available
>s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 04:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:12:13 +0900
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
In-Reply-To: <200201241220_MC3-EF42-CCA@compuserve.com>
References: <200201241220_MC3-EF42-CCA@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <13111341024.20020218131213@greimann.de>

Woo-hoo!  I  have  just  won  the  old "Traveller's  Digest:  Visit to
Antiquity" on the german E-Bay. How cool is that?
Sadly, I lost my bid on the "Atlas" though...

-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 04:23:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:23:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] QSDS
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217202247.025d41c0@mail.verizon.net>

Derek,

I need to pick your brain on QSDS offlist. Could you send an address I 
could use to chuckmcknight@yahoo.com?

Thanks!

Charles


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 05:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:42:27 +0900
Subject: [TML] New Force
In-Reply-To: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>
References: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <18116756262.20020218144227@greimann.de>



Am  14N214, las ich folgendes:

> From: "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au>

>      "Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a 
> good Trav scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients 
> artifacts?"


> Mr. Slamet,

>      There's a DGP Four Knights adventure set on Antiquity.  While DGP's 
> cinematic nugget format (blecch) might not be your cuppa, you could mine the 
> material for a nice selection of odd Ancients artifacts.
Waiting for mine to arrive in the mail as i type...




-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***, Happy Camper!
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 07:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:16:37 -0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c1b851$3e9b2020$aad3883e@fabian>


> Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250
> meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But
> here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and we
compete
> in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It
will
> also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under
those
> conditions?

His getting there may have been an accident of birth and who he knew, but
it was a worthy achievement all the same. Regardless of his connections,
he competed in the true spirit of teh Olympics, and I salute him.

Doug, I'd happily take you on in that shooting match. But then, I have
competed in archery before, so does that disqualify me? I don't mind the
cameras though, as I consider myself unreasonably brave when it comes to
making a fool of myself.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 15:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:22:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3C711C2E.F4F1EAC7@sitraka.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> That's if you think TL indicates the highest available to anyone on the
> world. 

No - the opposite of that was kind of my point. My question 
was more along the lines of "why would any world NOT have TTL C
medical equipment, regardless of the world's listed tech level?"

> I've always interpreted it to mean the TL of the majority of the
> population. Private hospitals reserved for the elite and military hardware
> for the elite's bodyguards and imported gravspeeders doesn't affect the
> life of the majority of the population. It most especially doesn't
> indicate the repair and support network a casual visitor to the world can
> expect to avail himself of (which is what I think TL is _for_, at least in
> a meta-sense; as a player I like to know what sort of equipment I can
> expect to be able to buy and as a GM I like to know what sort of equipment
> I can have my everyday locals tote.

Fair enough. But for certain things, like medical equipment, why would 
it ever be built on-world, when the infrastructure to create TTL 7, 8
or 9 medical equipment probably costs more then simply shipping in
everything froma  TTL C world in triplicate?

Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average 
Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 15:09:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020218150907.66940.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com>

I always thought the Hawaiian shirts were an homage to
the patron saint of grubby engineering assistants,
Bret from 'Alien' (played quite convincingly by Harry
Dean Stanton).
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 04:49 AM 2/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >There have been several comments about the Hawaiian
> shirt. I always 
> >thought that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of
> the more colorful (pun 
> >intended) quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on
> page 25 of JTAS #9 
> >showing a bearded man in a baseball cap with a
> "staple" gun pistol wearing 
> >a Hawaiian shirt. (I always wondered if it was
> meant to be Marc.) 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 16:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:38:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>

Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
anything, it's been getting worse!
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 17:46:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:46:06 GMT
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <200202181746.g1IHk6k20495@mailbag.com>

Thank you for your "rant". Saves me the trouble of trying to write something 
equally coherent. The IOC is scuzzy at it's best, but wrong use does not 
nullify right use - in this case honest effort by athletes. 

William 
--
Part of the skill of being a sysadim is being able to BS long enough to look 
something up or RTFM.

Bill Bradford




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 17:59:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:32  0000
Subject: [TML] Anyone out there?
Message-ID: <ANGIBFOFLIIKIBAA@angelfire.com>

I've not had any traffic on the list for several hours. Is this because it's been quiet or because I've accidentally blocked it from my inbox?

Can anyone tell me?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 18:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:52:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEMHCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Well said Doug.  You said what I had decided not to (having spent 5 minutes
calming down).

Sounds like an interesting life, I would buy a copy; now get writing.

I would compete with you, I'd lose (though not too badly having shot a lot a
long time ago) but the airfare would be prohibitive, when I win the lottery
I'll make a point of it.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 18 February 2002 01:48
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
> the
>
>
> At 12:51 AM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up
> > on a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some
> > Third World Thugocracy for their votes.
> >     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about
> > what's in it for us!
>
> You have to kidding.  Hell, the only reason there were cameras
> running was
> a technical rehearsal for a later event!
>
> I can't believe how some people think!  An amazing thing happened, the
> world embraced this guy who did something he had never done
> before in front
> of a sellout crowd and did his best.  Can we accept it at that,
> and admire
> the guts it took to actually swim?  Or must we tear down every
> accomplishment looking for something bad?  Hell, JFK got a medal for the
> PT-109 incident, and all you can do is gleefully recite who he
> was sleeping
> with back in the States!
>
> Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250
> meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But
> here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and
> we compete
> in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It will
> also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under those
> conditions?
>
> Let me explain something sir, there are dozens of ways he could have DQ'd
> and just enjoyed the trip.  He could have taken cold medicine and
> failed a
> drug test.  He could have dived before the start.  Hell, he could
> have just
> not bothered to show up!  All of the these would remove him from the
> competition.
>
> But he didn't.  He did show up.  He put on his trunks.  He got on the
> block.  And he swam.
>
> He swam, Larsen.  He swam like his life depended on it.  It was
> awkward as
> hell, but he did a racing turn, and headed back, visibly tired.  He could
> have stopped moving and ended it, but he didn't.  Instead, he swam.  When
> he finally reached the end of the pool, he slapped the wall with all the
> gusto of the Thorpedo.
>
> It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> relationships while still in the service.  I used to use
> marijuana.  I was
> once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have
> defaulted on a car
> loan, and have polyamorous relationships.
>
> There, when the book comes out, if anybody praises it, you can diss my
> achievement with some ammo.  After all, it isn't the achievement that
> matters, it is everything about the person's life that matters.
>
> To everybody else, sorry about the rant, but when I read this I felt my
> blood pressure shoot up about fifty points.
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 18:47:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:47:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
References: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3C714C3A.3050300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 

Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it, 
it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still 
resounds in peoples minds.

The ROM I-net started as an informal usage by naval personnell of the 
existing Terran Navy's  Advanced Piloted Reconnaisance Administration's 
network of couriers, put in place to provide a secure command and 
control network for the advancing Terran fleets.

With the end of the war and the scramble to administer the sprawling 
remnants of the Violani Empire, the ARPA net was pressed into service, 
carrying aofficial, and in increasing volume, unofficial communications 
among the various Naval staff.

While commercial use of the courier system was frowned upon, bith 
officially and unofficially, non-administrative use increased rapidly as 
researchers, administrators and some luckily connected merchants found 
the advantages of regular if not rapid communications.

Network traffic increased steadily until the Emperor, in order to reduce 
the load on Naval resources, officially converted the ARPA net into an 
interstellar network for administrators and academicians, who soon 
implemented better communications protocols, faster (and larger) packet 
ships and a rational addressing and message transmission system, instead 
of the old naval tradition of exploding a large coded sequence of flares 
upon entry into a system, leading to it's odd name of !Bang Addressing.

Useage of the net steadily grew until a pivotal day druing the riegn of 
Emperor Shrub 1, when a pair of unscrupulous merchanters, hiring the 
services of a rogue programmer, managed to attach a 5-minute video 
advertising their services in an upcoming Terran Citizenship Lottery to 
poor Vilani subjects. Overnight the traffic load went up 10-fold, as 
their programmer didn't follow protocol and hundreds of millions of 
copies of this material was sent out.

For three months, until savvy Inet admins managed to write deletion 
routines, nearly all the normal traffic was consumed by either the 
message or angry demands that the perpetators be caught and punished.

They wer cought rather quickly, however, it turned out, that the only 
punishment legally applicable to them was to cut pff their I-net access.

The floodgates had been closed, but the pressures were building. 
Influential Mechant concerns, with the ear of Emperor Gates IV convinced 
him that the I-net was a resource that should be available to all, not 
just an academic and military elite. IN the end, their appeals won him 
over, and one fateful day He decreed the I-Net 'Open for Business' and 
allowed the use of .Biz addresses in the I-Net.

Within one standard year, building new packet ships was consuming 30% of 
the Empire's GDP, and was growing. Up to 90% of the available space in 
each was immediately consumed with advertising...for everything from 
legitimate goods to pyramid schemes. It is said there's still a ghost 
packet ship out there delivering it's message of 'Make Money Fast!' to 
any who dare venture into it's haunted databanks...

Wild schemes to ship dirt halfway across the Empire flourished because 
gullible investors believed things like 'This is, like, the new 
busiiness paradigm, D00D!We have to build mindshare!' for such 
improbable business enterpreneurs as the famous Dirt.Biz CEO, who, in 
the end turned out to be nothing more than a sock puppet manipulated by 
a certain 'James T. Whipsnade'*.

Soon 85% of the total economy of the Empire was tied in one fashion or 
another to the Great I-Net boom, until someone in Arcturus said "Wait a 
minute!!! The shipping charges ALONE on dirt are insane!!! WHY would any 
sane person buy what they could find in their own yards?"

Confidence in the intersteallar economy, based as it was on dirt and a 
peculiar calendar known as 'Swatch Time', started to fall, and within a 
month the fall had developed into full-blown panic.

An Aldebaran branch of the Imperial Mint declined to accept payments 
from the Home branch stating that "They are all a bunch of greedhead 
Dot-Biz Vulture Capitalists" and the fall of the ROM began.

*When asked about the remarkable similarity in names, Larsen Whipsnade, 
cornered on the set of the latest "Road to.." film said "I plead the 
LAy! I know nothink! The statute of limitations has long run out on 
that! Go away! Is that a supoena in your hand??"


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44AA@compuserve.com>

Anyone else have this excellent supplement? I'm trying to create a program
for it to randomly generate cargoes and I'm wondering if the units and tons
are printed backwards on page 36, Generating Cargos?

For example, for Desert Cargo of Stilsuits:

Is that 1d6 x5 tons of 1 suit apiece? 
Or 1d6 suits at 5 tons apiece? 

How about stellar power systems? 
Is that 1d6 units at 5 tons apeice
Or 1d6 tons for 5 different units? 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:39:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:39:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hey...
Message-ID: <OF50497617.D0A41B4F-ON85256B64.006AF853@pheaa.org>

Been away for a while. got laid off about last august. finally got a job on
the east coast so made the trip from San Francisco to here.

i finally have been able to get a shot at GMing traveller again. However
I'm teaching Traveller to a bunch of new players (again). these are DnD
folks so they will be in for a shock. 1 is really learning from the ground
up. she (and yes i did say she) has never seen any sci-fi. not even star
wars.

So I'm wondering does anyone have a document that has list of common terms
and explanations that i could print out to help familiarize them with
things in the universe. i was writing my own but thought heck maybe someone
has one already and why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to.

for Example.

Parsec:  A unit of measure for interstellar space equal to the distance to
an object having a parallax of one second or to 3.26 light-years

Misjump: A malfunction of a starships jump drive resulting in 1 of 2
conditions. 1st is a  jump of indefinite duration, direction and distance.
2nd and far worse is the destruction of the ship and all hands onboard.

Secondly and much more important I'm using Lotus Notes here at work and I'm
trying to find out if this is sending in plain text. Listmom said he got it
in plain text but i really want to be sure. don't want to be spamming
people with a bunch of Mime stuff.

if this is sending Mime if anyone knows a why to set Lotus notes to send
text only would be much appreciated.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44AE@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Survey/Science:
Not much use to columns for stuff that isn't listed, is there?  I'd put any
science sensors under 'sensors'<

I really like the approach of Basic, Advanced and Military sensors 'sets'.
That way, if a Gearhead wants to add more detail, he can, but if a
Storyteller wants to just say add a modifier to Comm System rolls.+1 for
Advanced, +2 for Miltiary the stats work for this as well. 

Personally I know that there are *some* advanced systems I'd like to use
and some I wouldn't. A modular approach to detaling systems would work
well.

Same for Life Support. I allow life support to be 'sacrificed' to take
damage instead of other systems (ala Star Trek), but I dont count boxes of
food. I just reduce the number of bodies the current life support will
sustain and/or the range the system will last. Much simpler. 

They had a nice shrink wrapped box of Aftermath, Star Explorer, Daredevil
and Flashing Blades and all the excellent Flashing Blades module - which
after seeing the "Count of Monte Christo" I was dying to run!

Also copies of Bushido and many Aftermath and V&V modules. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44B4@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I certainly haven't seen a logical proof that it's impossible.

Well, since you are a self-proclaimed Gearhead it may make it difficult to
see that for a Storyteller, they ARE mutually exclusive. 

You can't both want a system that takes a minimum of 7 hours to build a
scoutship and want a system that takes 15 minutes to want a spaceship!

>>>>>I see both points of view.  And believe that referees should have the
>>>>>freedom to choose their approaches.  
>>>>>Sometimes (always, for some people) you really need to know surface
area in order to
>>>>>be able to decide what the in-game ramifications are of that surface
area.

Well, I think there are already plenty of systems available for these types
of players. 

>>>>>He periodically quits our longest-running "Traveller" game because the
>>>>>referee's comprehension of firearms is so dim that it just drives him
crazy.

>>>>>So, the game rules that are ultimately published should try to make as
many
>>>>>as possible of the above sorts of people happy.  

I totally disagree. I dont think that's possible and I dont think its
desirable. A game that caters to both extreme ends of the hobby will not
make a good game. 

They are certainly entitled to join a like-minded group and have fun. But
no rule system should be geared for them in mind. That's not what
roleplaying is about by any definition. IMHO. 

>>>>>The most obvious approach is a multitiered set of design rules.  

Again, since this isn't logically possible I dont see what your getting at.
Are you saying that GURPS Lite is a 'simpler' verison of GURPS? 

>>>>>This requires a publisher who
>>>>>is willing to make the leap that all customers have the capability to
use
>>>>>the software as part of their game.  

LOL! I can see the text on the box! "Finally, I roleplaying game that let's
you concentrate on the story instead of the rules! You must have Windows 98
and a 486 Pentium and 36 Megs of ram and a 4 Gig hard drive to use. To
download patches over your internet connect, you must have a 333 MHz modern
and a Passport account..."

As a Storyteller, I wouldn't USE a system that came with software. If the
game *needs* software to work, it's obviously not designed for
roleplaying!!

>>>>>Caveat, the dang things had BETTER be bug free, or else you'll
>>>>>ruin marketing for this product and any future ones.  

If the *book* isn't bug free, what chance does the software have of being
bug free! :/

>>>>>I refuse to describe gearheads and "roleplayers" as being at different
ends of the same
>>>>>spectrum.  They're completely different spectrums from each other
really.
>>>>>right there.  How gearheady of me to go on like this, lol.

I think your misunderstanding the way I'm attempting to use the term. I
specifically MEAN "The opposite of a gearhead". I'm using the term
Storyteller to mean specificially somone is NOT a gearhead. 

Someone who just wants to tell stories and have fun, regardless of the
physics involved. This does not mean that the system should have no
versimilitude - but that's very different from realism or complexity. 

>>>>>Again, depends on the player personality type of the referee whether
they
>>>>>need the gearhead detail to answer this.  And the other players in the
game
>>>>>will also vary on how much gearheading they want in the answers.

Well, I belief the origional statement I was replaying to was that you CANT
roleplay without this answer. I'm just saying that for some of us, it's
very possible. 

>>>>>Not sure I follow your point here.  What I think you're saying is a
>>>>>gearhead system, by definition, involves lots of factors.  The simple
>>>>>system, by definition, involves very few factors.

That's not it. I think your looking at it as "lots" vs. "few". And that's
not it. The distinction between the gearhead system and the simple system
(to me) is "most of the realistic" vs. "the right" factors. 

The gearhead system has all the factors that are realistic. The simple
system has all the factors that need game mechanics, but none of the
factors that dont. 

>>>>>If that's what you're saying, then I immediately have a few issues to
think
>>>>>about.  

But that is not what I am saying. 

>>>>> I don't know that there will be widespread agreement and don't
>>>>>see a way to devise definitive proofs.

Well, I'm not saying that will ever happen. I simply think we can come a
little closer than QSDS and TSDS, that's all. 

>>>>>Someone well practiced with mathematics probably won't have a
difficult
>>>>>time doing this.  

My whole point is that a mathematical approach is mostly the wrong approach
anyway. Though having attempting to simply volume/mass equations myself,
I'll admit there has to be an underlying strength to the formulas. Steve
Jackson could do it if he wanted to!

>>>>>If I understand you correctly, then we agree on this.  Gearheads
>>>>>**require** more details to be happy with their game, nongearheads are
>>>>>content with ignoring the less important-seeming details and wild
>>>>>approximations of other details.  Just so long as somebody makes up
some
>>>>>kind of answer, let's get back to the action.

Exactly, and I just happen to think that the Gearheads have plenty of ship
design systems that work for them! Or the opposite, which is that they will
NEVER have enough ship design systems to make them happy! ;]

But either way, the Storytellers don't seem to have as many choices - since
Book 2, High Guard and QSDS dont cover ALL types of Traveller ships, they
dont count IMHO. 

>>>>>>>No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with
that. Make
>>>>>>>>it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
>>>>>>>>incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into
account. 
>>>>>>>Hmmm.  I think sooner or later it will.  But how long it will take
will
>>>>>>>depends on how many ships you design in your lifetime.  

How many games require a seperate Arm Strength from the Strength stat? Not
that many (but there *are* a few!). 

>>>>>>>Some referees then add to or modify the existing rules to suit
themselves.  Possibly because they just like doing
>>>>>>>that sort of thing.  

Yes, most GM's consider that "part" of the hobby. Every GM has a little bit
of gearhead in them. After all, when you can't play as often as you like,
its FUN to *think* about playing. And this tinkering is part of it. 

>>>>>>>The awkward task for the original game
>>>>>>>designer is choosing how to make the game appeal to the part of the
>>>>>>>spectrum that they want to appeal to.

Sure, and the designer will most likely choose the one that appeals to
themselves most. I like Traveller because the CT/MT range is about exactly
the amount of detail that strikes a very good medium balance. 

Some people will like the GURPS end of the spectrum. Some will like the
Space Opera end of the spectrum. That's okay, too. 

>>>>>>>Exactly.  To each his own.  
>>>>>>>Although I've seen some groups who don't realize this,
>>>>>>>becoming contests between which player can out-rules-lawyer everyone
else,
>>>>>>>with the referee fighting to keep up.

Exactly! But frankly, I see this happening more with the gearheads than the
storytellers. My favorite is the story of the guy who stormed out of a
Traveller game because he couldn't abide by an ice-covered asteroid! Of
course, science later proved that wasn't such a wild idea after all.....

>>>>>>>A good set of rules will allow both gearhead and simple to coexist
and be
>>>>>>>compatible.  

Well, last month I was bombarded with email saying that I shouldn't rag on
D&D because "No system is perfect". The system your describing sure sounds
like the "lion and the lamb" system! 

But I don't think a *perfect* system is possible. I dont WANT a system that
works well for Gearheads AND works well for Storytellers. I want a system
that works well for Storytellers! 

Given the choice between both systems - I'd chose the one most likely to
want to be played by *other* Storytellers!

A good set of rules will also do other things to make people
happy, which are unrelated to this.  Being all inclusive is not the sole
criterium for judging a set of rules.  Therefore, it is not necessarily
true that more inclusive equals better rules.

>>>>>> I think the only significant difference between the parties in this
debate right now is whether it is
>>>>>>possible for complex, gearhead design systems to coexist in the same
rules
>>>>>>with simple, nongearhead systems.  You say no, he says yes.  If
either of
>>>>>>you can prove or demonstrate your point to the other, the debate on
that
>>>>>>should be settled.  Or you may want to agree to disagree, who's to
say?

Agreed. And I've certainly tried to keep focused on that central issue, so
if anyone is offended or bothered by anything that's not related to this
central point,  please forgive me, but I agree that this is really the main
concern. 

I've tried to give specific examples of this for help in those attempting a
'simpler' system than the ones we've seen so far, but the bottom line is
that I doubt anyone who WANTS ONLY a simple system, beleifs that it's
possible for 1 system to work for both. No would a Storyteller (the
opposite of a gearhead) want to use such a system. 

So whether it's possible is irrelevant if it's not desirable by its
audience. 

I'm certainly willing to look at all of the attempts - just cause that's
fun. Heck, I'm also building simple systems myself for fun. 

>I'm just asking for one more choice!
>>>>>>You lost me there.  I thought you have been saying that the gearheads
are
>>>>>>asking for more choice, but you think an excess of choice is
unworkable?

What I'm saying is that the gearheads seem to have plenty of systems to
choose from. FF&S1, FF&S2, GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Traveller, High Guard,
etc. 

But there doesn't seem to be too many systems for Storytellers. Book 2. 

>>>>>>(i.e., you think it is impossible to write rules that include both
the
>>>>>>gearhead and the simple choices?)

Yes. I do think it's impossible to do that. That's like saying that you can
devise a "sport" that will appeal to all football, baseball, basketball and
soccer fans and they will give up their other games to play this one
particular "Sport" that suits them all!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:15:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B89692C9.26A8F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/18/02 8:38 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 


I've changed the digest out going address.  I'll take another look at what's
getting through.

I I can't solve the problem, I guess I'll have to recompile sendmail with
spam filtering.  Stand by.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44A9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
Depends.  What are you looking for?  Specifically Traveller, or is mixed
genre
for data mining okay?  <

Mixed Genre is fine with me. It's just that none of the Traveller books are
particularly well illustrated and *someone* is going to ask me what the
heck Jack or Mesh looks like! 

Where is Tod Glen's web site? 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:<

Nice! Thank you!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181432_MC3-F27A-44BE@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>FF&S2 was for T4. FF&S1 was the one that went with TNE.
>>

I never got around to getting that one!

>>>Gah. That's not a sufficient answer at all for many, many groups. 
>>>Besides half the time it'll be asked way back when the character's 
>>>first arming up and you have no idea whether it'll be better for the 
>>>story for the gun to be concealable or not.

Player: Can I hide my gun under my coat?
GM: No, they'll automatically spot it if you try. 
Player: Sorry, that's not a sufficient answer.

This doesn't sound like a rule problem to me!

Whatever rules you decide to use to make that decision are going to be
arbitrary. Your just setting an artificial level of 'what amount of
arbitrary' you agree to suspend your disbelief. 

Your going to pick the same rules before it happens are you'll pick when it
happens. Your decision on which rules to allow IS the decision on what's
best for the story, no matter when you make it. 

>>>Sure. I see your point. I just think that simple or not so simple a 
>>>design system should cough up plenty of numbers - they're easier to 
>>>ignore than add later.

I can accept that. I think we're actually talking about two different
thing. I'm talking about how simple it is to create those numbers. NOT how
many numbers the system spits out. 

But at the same time, some numbers are harder to ignore than other. That's
also a story-based decision that you can make well before a game. The
stories I tell are easier if those numbers aren't there because they can
distract the players into using the machines instead of their characters. 

Most sci-fi dramas make the same choice. No matter how good the technology
is - its always the characters decisions that drive the story. 

>>>> meters. But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use
>>>> Starfuries because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma
>>>> Projectors!" One is good for the story. The other is bad for the
story. 
>>>>>>>>>To me the last one's embarrasing - it implies I screwed up
somewhere.

I hear that some Star Trek 'nitpickers' actually watch the show like that -
looking for technical inconsistences. To me, that audience is the
embarrasment - not the director!

>>>High Guard, of course - it fits in nicely. :)

LOL! Yeah, well, maybe it's not so bad after all!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:00:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Anyone out there?
Message-ID: <20020218.130011.-23855.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Don't worry about the long weekend, presidents day in the USA and all.

Were alive and kicking though many have opted to spend time with their
families and/or loved ones rather than us.

Turokan


On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:32  0000 "Andrew Whincup"
<shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:
> I've not had any traffic on the list for several hours. Is this 
> because it's been quiet or because I've accidentally blocked it from 
> my inbox?
> 
> Can anyone tell me?
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 20:50:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:50:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
In-Reply-To: <200202181509.g1IF9DJ26552@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir;

<snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:44:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] Interesting Architecture[maybe OT,but neat]
Message-ID: <3C71214E.27704.17251BD@localhost>

>http://www.arcspace.com/architects/DillerScofidio/blur_building/

I think its a colossal waste of money, but it is kinda neat, especially the blur suits


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:05:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
Message-ID: <20020218.130533.-23855.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Douglass Berry, did you do it?

It was on the news today that video's were being made at some malls.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:31:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:31:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hey...
Message-ID: <20020218.163121.-247697.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> So I'm wondering does anyone have a document that has list of common 
> terms and explanations that i could print out to help familiarize them 
> with things in the universe. i was writing my own but thought heck
maybe 
> someone has one already and why reinvent the wheel when you don't have
to.

It's not Traveller-specific (in fact, it's more anime themed), but for
general SF jargon, you can raid and plunder from the following site: 
http://members.aol.com/LordZox/dict.html


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:07:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:07:34 -0000
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <3C714C3A.3050300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEMKCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Keyboard Kill !!!!!!!  :)  :)  :)

brilliant

Peter 'Beest' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
How do I know that anyone is human? I have to take their word for it.
- -Sartre

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
> Sent: 18 February 2002 18:47
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
>
>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> > anything, it's been getting worse!
> > --
> > Jeff Zeitlin
> > jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> >
>
> Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on
> line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it,
> it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still
> resounds in peoples minds.
>
> The ROM I-net started as an informal usage by naval personnell of the
> existing Terran Navy's  Advanced Piloted Reconnaisance Administration's
> network of couriers, put in place to provide a secure command and
> control network for the advancing Terran fleets.
>
> With the end of the war and the scramble to administer the sprawling
> remnants of the Violani Empire, the ARPA net was pressed into service,
> carrying aofficial, and in increasing volume, unofficial communications
> among the various Naval staff.
>
> While commercial use of the courier system was frowned upon, bith
> officially and unofficially, non-administrative use increased rapidly as
> researchers, administrators and some luckily connected merchants found
> the advantages of regular if not rapid communications.
>
> Network traffic increased steadily until the Emperor, in order to reduce
> the load on Naval resources, officially converted the ARPA net into an
> interstellar network for administrators and academicians, who soon
> implemented better communications protocols, faster (and larger) packet
> ships and a rational addressing and message transmission system, instead
> of the old naval tradition of exploding a large coded sequence of flares
> upon entry into a system, leading to it's odd name of !Bang Addressing.
>
> Useage of the net steadily grew until a pivotal day druing the riegn of
> Emperor Shrub 1, when a pair of unscrupulous merchanters, hiring the
> services of a rogue programmer, managed to attach a 5-minute video
> advertising their services in an upcoming Terran Citizenship Lottery to
> poor Vilani subjects. Overnight the traffic load went up 10-fold, as
> their programmer didn't follow protocol and hundreds of millions of
> copies of this material was sent out.
>
> For three months, until savvy Inet admins managed to write deletion
> routines, nearly all the normal traffic was consumed by either the
> message or angry demands that the perpetators be caught and punished.
>
> They wer cought rather quickly, however, it turned out, that the only
> punishment legally applicable to them was to cut pff their I-net access.
>
> The floodgates had been closed, but the pressures were building.
> Influential Mechant concerns, with the ear of Emperor Gates IV convinced
> him that the I-net was a resource that should be available to all, not
> just an academic and military elite. IN the end, their appeals won him
> over, and one fateful day He decreed the I-Net 'Open for Business' and
> allowed the use of .Biz addresses in the I-Net.
>
> Within one standard year, building new packet ships was consuming 30% of
> the Empire's GDP, and was growing. Up to 90% of the available space in
> each was immediately consumed with advertising...for everything from
> legitimate goods to pyramid schemes. It is said there's still a ghost
> packet ship out there delivering it's message of 'Make Money Fast!' to
> any who dare venture into it's haunted databanks...
>
> Wild schemes to ship dirt halfway across the Empire flourished because
> gullible investors believed things like 'This is, like, the new
> busiiness paradigm, D00D!We have to build mindshare!' for such
> improbable business enterpreneurs as the famous Dirt.Biz CEO, who, in
> the end turned out to be nothing more than a sock puppet manipulated by
> a certain 'James T. Whipsnade'*.
>
> Soon 85% of the total economy of the Empire was tied in one fashion or
> another to the Great I-Net boom, until someone in Arcturus said "Wait a
> minute!!! The shipping charges ALONE on dirt are insane!!! WHY would any
> sane person buy what they could find in their own yards?"
>
> Confidence in the intersteallar economy, based as it was on dirt and a
> peculiar calendar known as 'Swatch Time', started to fall, and within a
> month the fall had developed into full-blown panic.
>
> An Aldebaran branch of the Imperial Mint declined to accept payments
> from the Home branch stating that "They are all a bunch of greedhead
> Dot-Biz Vulture Capitalists" and the fall of the ROM began.
>
> *When asked about the remarkable similarity in names, Larsen Whipsnade,
> cornered on the set of the latest "Road to.." film said "I plead the
> LAy! I know nothink! The statute of limitations has long run out on
> that! Go away! Is that a supoena in your hand??"
>
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:25:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:25:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #168
References: <200202181509.g1IF9DJ26552@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <008801c1b8cb$40125660$10a35940@dixienet.com>

Spam Alert!         Ignore the following item.......  John Strain

Source:

> 
> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
> From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
> Subject: Preliminary introduction



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:16:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
References: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C718B30.7000200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> 
>>Dear Sir;
>>
> 
> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

'Twas spam, and only the Digest version got it, as I didn't see it...was 
this the 'Grieving Widow of the Former Military Dictator' version (my 
favorite) or (the newest version I've seen) 'The Oppressed Christian 
living under Rigid Islamic Sharia Law'?

(That one is going to sucker in BUCKETloads of people...:-(

The Grieving Widow one almost got a co-worker who is sweet but utterly 
brainless. "Oh, that poor lady' she was telling me. "Do you think I 
should help her?" SBB asked me.

After cleaning the coffee out of my sinuses, I asked SBB, if she read 
the part where the woman mentioned her husband 'The Former Military 
Ruler of Nigeria, ousted in a Coup and killed by Rebels' and asked SBB 
if she really thought helping former dictators' widows was such a worthy 
enterprise...


ObTrav: Surely there has to be a VAST commerce in con games in the 
3I...given the lazziez faire attitude of the 3I government, so long as 
you've greased the right noble palms and gotten off planet safely, you 
should be scot-free. Scams such as this, done via X-boat should be even 
better...

Eris, I know there is a highly effective, ruthless and invincible Bunco 
Squad in YTU so we'll never have to worry about *THAT* now, will we?

(It's probably really stupid to bring up things like this in front of 
your GM when you're searching for cargo and fares to pay the mortgage on 
the ship ;-)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:40:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
In-Reply-To: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>
References: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020218234018.2ec0caec.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Jeff Rients wrote:
> I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro
> adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8
> Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).
> I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next
> couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward
> Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?

Traveller is very open-ended (more so than many other games, non-SF games
in particular). If you use the character design system straight from the
books, you will get a very wide range of characters. Therefore, you might
want to limit the players' options a bit, in order to get a coherent
group.

Alternatively, you might want to do a more organized selection of
character types. In fantasy games, this would mean building a group
consisting of a fighter, a mage, a cleric, and a thief. Which is rather
boring.

Consider, however, that starships in Traveller require rather specialized
skills for a rather large number of people in order to operate. If your
PCs are the crew of a starship, they will have been selected to match
those criteria. Therefore, it does make sense to use this seemingly very
OOC method of character "profession" selection in Traveller.

Oh, and ask a lot of questions around here if you have any. There are a
lot of portable (and not so portable ;) Traveller encyclopedias subscribed
to this list.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:50:21 +0100
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020218235021.4959cedc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

n2sami wrote:
> 1. We have a system which has developed independent of external
> influence. 
> 2. It has 10s of billions of inhabitants. (Humans)
> 3. The region of space it inhabits is empty of other intelligent races
> and none of those that do exist have explored this region yet.
> 4. For 400 years these inhabitants have explored and developed their
> star system.
> 5. Recently government researchers have developed and successfully
> tested a J1-drive.
> 
> What happens next, do you think?

For fun (and for an interesting game)...

Spies from another government (or from an independent enterprise) gain
access to the technology.

> How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?

About 25 minutes  ;-)

Seriously, until they start producing it. At that point, too many
individuals are involved to keep details of the project from leaking out.

Yes, I know this wasn't the case with, for example, the A-bomb, but
information today is a lot more mobile.

> How far do the initial explorations journey from home?

Far enough to either find something valueable (in which case new
explorations will go further to find more valuable things).

Alternatively, far enough to run out of budget and find themselves a
cancelled project.

> What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?

Bad Things (TM) could happen, since fighting (trade wars) could break out
in deep space. Without any real regulation, things could escalate very
quickly.

Also, independent enterprises are probably a lot less likely to share
information on their discoveries with others.

For ideas, do a web search for "gold rush"... relative lawlessness,
frontier mining, boom towns...

Or look at my homepage (in the Traveller section), to see what my sick
mind came up with. Note: The homepage is currently down about 10-20% of
the time, due to me having only one computer.

http://spacejens.dhs.org/traveller/

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:37:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:37:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE:  Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <B896D051.1F81%jwwebb@earthlink.net>


> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!


Hey, I kind of liked that last one.  I've never seen outright mail fraud
aimed at pathetic suckers like that is was.  Interesting to me was that it
mentioned a "Mr. Wiseman" - suggestive, eh?  I think Whipsnade has some
competition.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:45:48 -0600
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com> <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3C71922C.5080604@playnet.com>



Hunter Gordon wrote:

> 
> The face I believe though is that of the artist himself. At least comparing it with the bio pic on his webpage tends to make me think so, and I do know he has used his own image as a model for other sci-fi novel covers he has done.
> 
> Hunter


At least give him a haircut.

In general, I think an artist that puts himself so
boldy in an image he was hired to produce thinks
too much of his own looks and not enough of the
importance of the image.

The background of the image is nice, except for
the unsafely-small 'planks' - they sure don't
look like anything you'd reasonably use to board
a vehicle from.

The foreground, not so much.  Lost the photo of
the artist's face.  Lose the kitty patch on his
left breast.  Clean up the apparently cut&paste
wolf's head with a something similar that is more
in keeping with the background figures of the image,
which are nice.

Waay too busy an image.
Overall it says Star Wars, not Traveller.

Nevermind.  It's "final", right?
And we'll all buy a copy no matter what it looks
like.  Too bad it isn't just us that you have to
worry about.

-bloo


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:50:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:50:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
References: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C719352.307D241B@premier.net>



sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> >
> > Dear Sir;
> 
> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

I'd say the latter, since it apparently only showed up in the digest.

On the subject of the Nigerian Bank Scam, here's an amusing article from
SatireWire:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/scam.shtml

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 20:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:24:36 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk> <3C711C2E.F4F1EAC7@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1b8d5$d14b4380$71d5883e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Henry" <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>

> Fair enough. But for certain things, like medical equipment, why would
> it ever be built on-world, when the infrastructure to create TTL 7, 8
> or 9 medical equipment probably costs more then simply shipping in
> everything froma  TTL C world in triplicate?
>
> Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
> be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average
> Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control

Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
throughout the third world. However, the drugs companies prefer to keep
their products expensive to raise profits, among other reasons. We in the
'enlightened' world don't notice this because we are generally wealthy
enough to afford what we need, it doesn't directly affect us, and the
third world has no real voice in our media. The debacle with South Africa,
our moderately close cousins, and AIDS drugs has recently brought it into
the limelight. But this is ample proof that in a world that can produce
TL7-8 medicine, much of the world has access to TL 4-5 medicine at best.
And if you're in Africa/India and outside a city, don't make any plans on
having better than TL 2-3 medicine available, unless you carry it with
you.

So bringing it back to Traveller, why do the poor/low tech worlds maintain
their own pharmaceutical industry?

- Fear of a new Long Night
- Extortionate prices for imports
- Career opportunities for people with exceptional talent
- National pride
- Err...
- That's it


--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:51:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <200202182351.PAA22388@molly.iii.com>

"Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
>> be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average
>> Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control
>
>Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
>no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
>throughout the third world.

Well, these factors are why I think 'TL' and 'wealth' should be virtually
synonymous.  It's worth noting that most third world countries don't have
a low-tech infrastructure either -- they don't don't have much of an
infrastructure at all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:05:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:05:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44A9@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <B896D6B6.26C0F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/18/02 11:31 AM, Michael Taylor at MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com wrote:
> Mixed Genre is fine with me. It's just that none of the Traveller books are
> particularly well illustrated and *someone* is going to ask me what the
> heck Jack or Mesh looks like!
> 
> Where is Tod Glen's web site?

Weapon section can be accessed at http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:10:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Evening Star?
Message-ID: <200202182110_MC3-F292-3C1B@compuserve.com>

I came across the Traveller module name "Evening Star"  and almost started
to cry. This is one of the greatest modules ever done for Traveller and I
remember having a blast with it when I was a kid. 

Are there any pictures of this product posted on line anywhere?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:53:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:53:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>
><snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
>Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
>guess) or did someone just spam this list with this sc

Interestingly, the decedent is a Mr. Wiseman.  I wonder if the spammer
actually did a little research.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 03:28:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:28:55 +1100
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <OF1D1C8387.9926A636-ONCA256B65.0013015B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce wrote:
>Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
>line.
[brilliant exposition snipped]

Chalk up a keyboard kill!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 04:19:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:19:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <OFCCC08542.FF9D9BD8-ON85256B65.0017A6F5@lotus.com>

Michael Taylor writes:
>Anyone else have this excellent supplement?
That one's mine. Unfortunately the only bit I didn't write was the cargo 
generation bit. Andy wrote that. If he's still active, you can probably 
ask him.
If you have any questions on the rest, I'm happy to answer those. Almost 
every cargo has a story behind it (the grav stilettos, the turd filled 
glass sculptures, the yips...)

Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 01:25:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:25:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
In-Reply-To: <3C719352.307D241B@premier.net>
Message-ID: <00c801c1b8e4$517e71e0$2f7de40c@loki>

John leads us to:
http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/scam.shtml

from which I find [edited]

THE FIVE RULES FOR DOING BUSINESS [as a Free Trader Tramp]
1. NEVER pay anything up front for ANY reason.
2. NEVER extend credit for ANY reason.
3. NEVER do ANYTHING until their check clears.
4. NEVER expect ANY help from the [Local] Government.
5. NEVER rely on [the Imperial] Government to bail you out.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:44:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:44:39 EST
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <50.6caad02.29a31617@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 5:16:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> there was a project to make a traveller CD rom of all the GDW stuff some
> years ago.
> but I think it's fallen off the mark.
> 

I pretty much did this myself....or at least am working on it. though i am 
doing it for personal reasons.  I love the LBB format (classic traveller all 
the way) and the reprint books are ok, but bottom line was i was still 
carrying a ton of books to game night so i started scanning the books i have 
and putting them on my laptop. Not only did i scan em but i OCRed them so i 
can do a search. Next project i might tackle is to take everything i have and 
put it in a database format of some sort (taking suggestions on what would 
work best) so i can make a super ships library with search and indexing.  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the books, 
i am only doing it to compile space


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 05:28:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:28:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
In-Reply-To: <20020218.130533.-23855.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218212220.009e9110@mindspring.com>

At 01:05 PM 2/18/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Hey Douglas Berry, did you do it?

Naw, the loving wife pointed out that:

a.  I need to do a whole pile more sit-ups and push-ups before I'm even 
remotely in shape, and

b. Getting a career-orientated position as a Communications Dispatcher 
would do a lot more for the family, financially, than running off to who 
-knows-where and eating grubs.

Maybe after I've been at work a couple of years, if they are still running 
the show, I'll give it a try.

A friend and I were discussing TV in general, and he was of the opinion 
that in a couple of years we will have the Survivor Channel.  Repeats of 
old episodes, behind the scenes stuff, travelogues of the setting, and when 
the survivors touch down, *24 hour a day coverage* for their entire time, 
from boarding the pane to the last council!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:19:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:19:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
Message-ID: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com>


<snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

For those of you who missed it, here it is. I find this particular one 
veryamusing, for reasons which should be obvious, and for which I hope to be 
forgiven re-spamming the list.

************************************
>  Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
>  From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
>  Subject: Preliminary introduction
>  
>  Dear Sir;
>  
>  My name is Linda Bongo, I am the Group Managing Director of Commerce Bank 
> Limited. I contact you in order to intimate you with a certain state of 
> affairs that I am sure will inspire your interest.
>  On the 5th September 2000 , I received a notice from the administrative 
> department of my bank informing me of the death of one of our customers. 
The 
> late man was an American businessman his name is Frederick Wiseman III. Mr. 
> Wiseman was a very visible businessman known to many of us, he has been a 
> customer of my bank for over 2 decades and he has lived in Africa for over 
5 
> decades.
>  Upon receipt of the news of Mr. Wiseman's death, I initiated the normal 
> procedures which included the notification of his next of kin to inform 
them 
> of his demise. To my utter surprise after due investigation,  Mr. Wiseman 
> nominated a non existent Mrs. Wiseman  as his next of kin. Not knowing what 
> next steps to pursue, I put the file in abeyance until such a time as 
> somebody comes forward to lay claim to that status of next of kin.
>  Last September makes it exactly a year since Mr. Wiseman's death. Nobody 
has 
> still come forward. All my multifaceted investigations have revealed the 
same 
> conclusion; Mr. Wiseman died with no family ties.
>  Sir, I inform you that Mr. Wiseman had a balance of  $30 million dollars 
in 
> his domiciliary account at my bank. I contact you because I feel that we 
> should work together and see ways we can profit from this most bizarre 
> situation. My banks standard procedure under such a situation is to turn 
the 
> money over to the authorities. If you are aware of the sociopolitical 
> realities of Nigeria, you will know that there are no set of people more 
> corrupt than the government officials themselves. If I turn this money over 
> to them, it will surely end up in their private bank accounts. Rather than 
> turn the money in, I have decided to keep it for myself.
>  If you are ready to work with me, what I propose is as follows;
>  1-I will nominate you as the next of kin
>  2-I will direct that the funds be paid out to you.
>  Understand that I am the paramount administrative office of this bank and 
my 
> directives have immediate effect. Once we are of one accord, I will have 
your 
> name and address placed as that of the next of kin and I will commence the 
> process.
>  Mr. Wiseman operated his account in a branch of my bank under the 
management 
> of a European gentleman, Mr. Schwechter, I have spoken with him and he has 
> expressed preparedness to co-operate with me only if I  accept the 
> responsibility of securing  the cooperation of the person who is to stand 
as 
> next of kin. For your cooperation all three of us will share the money 
> equally. I can assure you that this is a straight forward business and I 
can 
> have it wrapped up in a weeks time.
>  If you find yourself interested in this project, then please contact me 
for 
> further information of linda_bongo@lycos.com or you may contact Mr. Martin 
> Schwechter at martinschwechter@excite.com .Mr. Schwechter speaks French , 
> German and English. He is a most agreeable man and I am sure he will be 
able 
> to explain further details to you.
>  Please consider this offer and let me know what your thinking is.
>  Thank you.
>  
>  Mrs. Linda Bongo
>  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 05:19:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:19:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEMHCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.
 co.uk>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218211440.009e9d90@mindspring.com>

At 06:52 PM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Sounds like an interesting life, I would buy a copy; now get writing.

Ah, you should see the things that I didn't mention!  Like why my car was 
once dismantled by the Border Patrol, or how a speeding ticket could have 
led to me spending the rest of my life in federal prison, or the night I 
literally fled naked from the bedroom window... of my platoon leader and 
his lovely wife!

If you only get one life, you had better make sure it is interesting!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:10:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202182110_MC3-F292-3C1D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
><<<SNIP OF DEBATE WHERE OPPOSING POSITIONS ARE BECOMING FIRMLY
ENTRENCHED>>>
>
>>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
>It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
confusing
>you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
>>>>>This part still bothers me.  I am a role player, and a story teller,
and
>>>>>whatever other synonym you wish to employ.  

Arg! Jeesh it's a just a word. Your losing focus on what the discussion was
about! Which is "Can a Gearhead system simplified satisfy all Traveller
players?" 

Pick a term that means "DEFINITELY THE OPPOSITE OF GEARHEAD"! I'll use it!
:<

>>>>>Did you read my earlier post that describes
gearheadedness/nongearheadedness as one
>>>>>spectrum, and roleplayerness/nonroleplayerness as a completely
different
>>>>>and unrelated spectrum?  Desire for detail and desire for a good story
are
>>>>>two completely different things.  

Yes I did. But I was never talking about that! I was talking about the a
Ship Design system and who it's audience is. 

>>>>>I think you're making an important
>>>>>mistake to consider roleplayer or storyteller or whatever as mutually
>>>>>exclusive with gearhead.  

No, I'm not - because for purposes of a SHIP DESIGN SYSTEM discussion, they
ARE mutually exclusive! They are MEANT to be. 

Taking this off into the tangent of a "general" discussion about the
"amount" of gearheadedness is an entirely different discussion. 

>>>>>Just because you personally may be a strong
>>>>>roleplayer and not a strong gearhead (taking a guess this describes
you)
>>>>>does not mean the two things go hand in hand.

Yeah, it does if the disucssion is "If you divide Traveller players into
two groups - one who calls themsselves Gearheads and want a ship design
system built for 'Gearheads' and the others who wants ANOTHER kind of ship
design system that's specifically addresses they're Non-Gearhead needs...."

>>>>>>You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system
and a
>>>>>>person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how
I'm
>>>>>>using the terms. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fair enough statement, but it sure hasn't been sounding that
way to me.<

I think you are inferring that the statement Roleplayer/Storyteller vs.
Gearhead is indicative of how I feel about things BEYOND the Ship Design
System. 

That's not correct. It's just a convienient term for this PARTICULAR
discussion.

For the record (and just to re-state that I feel this is WAY beyond the
scope of the discussion I'm talking about) - the whole "gearhead spectrum"
thing is fine with me as far as it goes, but ...

1. It doesn't particulary work for the idea of a "Simplified FFS&S". This
doesn't meet the needs of the "Non-Gearhead".  

2. If that were true then where's the hue--and-cry from the Gearheads
wanting to seperate Dexterity into Manual Dexterity and Running Dexterity.
Intelligence into Long Term Memory and Short Term Memory? 

So know you have a 'spectrum' that's more like a 3-dimensional cube,
because the Gearheads are only gearheads when it comes to some of the
technological aspects of the game. They dont need that kind of detail for
other aspects of the game. 

So the whole analogy doesn't pass the squint test on closer examination.
IMHO. 

>>>>And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist".
Then we
>>>>have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my observation
is
>>>>one of the most fundamental in gaming.

LOL! That's what all Gearheads say! That they're Simulating More
Accurately! 

As a Storyteller I take objection to that! I'm not simulating any less
accurately than the gearhead. But I'm capable of doing it *without* rules
to spoonfeed me figures! 

When those figures are in the rules, they don't help me - they confuse the
game because I may decide to engineer something different, but they players
are confused by the numbers in the rules that I've decided to change. 

Besides. The Gearhead specifically ISNT insterested in simulating.
Simulation requires action and variable outcomes. Puting the technology
through its paces, so to speak. 

Gearheading is about *Modeling*. They want their technology to be accurate
models based on science. How they 'act' in the real/simulated world is
*secondary* to how they "play". 

So the way I see it, the Storytellers who are more interested in how the
Play turns out than in having rules for every technology are the real
"Simulationists" whereas the gearheads are Modelers who want the paper
technology to encompass as much accuracy as the science envisions. 

You can think of it in terms of the Heisenberg principle - the closer you
observe something, the more likely you are to modify it. Or you can think
of it in terms of Statistics. All Statistics break down at the larger and
smaller ends. 

I think of it in terms of software engineering. The more complex your
design, the more likely it is to break. So a complex system - by definition
- has more holes in it than a simple system. 

But again, this is a different dicussion/tangent to a ship building system.


>>>>>>>>>>IMO (but that's just me) storytelling style is just an invitation
>>>>>>>>>>for a GM (myself included) to nudge players around. Not possible
if the
>>>>>>>>>>rules cover everything.

LOL! Sorry but it seems that GURPS rules cover everthing and that doesn't
seem to have solved the problem! 

How about if the GM covers everything? I'm capable of being very consistent
and realistic and accurate in my rulings. So rules that "cover
everything"WORSE THAN I WOULD are simply tedious and inaccurate and
confusing to players who want *good* rules

But again, this is a digression. As I said, above the distinction between
Gearhead/Storyteller is too simplistic once you get past talking about a
SPECIFIC design system. 

There are too many variations for these two camps to be broadened beyond a
the specifics of vehicle design. 

Expect for which Gadgets rules they use - all gods' children are part
gearhead/part storyteller. 

>>>>Ah, but what about the gamists? This has been an old favourite on 
>>>>rec.games.frp.advocacy for the six years I've been on-line and longer.

Not familiar with that one, and I *am* curious about it, but I suspect it's
also Off Track! ;D

>>>>I would describe myself as a role-player above all else... but for me, 
>>>>part of that is creating and inhabiting as 'real' an alternate reality
as 
>>>>I can manage :-)
>>>>So, does this help or hinder the debate?

It hurts. Because it adds the old 'realism/interesting' debate to the Ship
Design System, which infers that the Simple system is the "Not Realistic"
system. Well, if that's what I wanted, I'd be happy with "Big Robots, Cool
Starships". 

Take the Barrel Length discussion *. The gearhead can't rule on whether or
not a player can hide the weapon in the coat without knowing the barrell
length and the coat lengths. 

The Storteller can take that into account in his head plus wind resistance
plus alertness of guards plus players suspiciousness plus Law Level plus
alot of other things that the gearhead can't do because he doesn't have
rules in front of him to tell him how to do it. So the player looks up his
barrel length and says "Yes. I can do this!" 

The Storyteller calculates this all in his head and allows it or disallows
it based on a far more realistic set of variables than ANY rules could ever
cover. Plus it's much more exciting because for the Storyteller player it
is NOT a foregone conclusion because they can't look it up in the book. 

* I realize that that is a bias example, and that the original example is
acknowledged as a bad example - but my point is still valid, which is that
less rules does NOT mean less realistic. Most of the time it means *more*
realstic. 

I'm not asking for a less realistic system - I'm asking for a *better*
system than the gearhead system! By better I mean - let ME handle the
"realism" (because I can do that better for "My Traveller Universe" than
ANY design system) part and the design system should handle the Rules part.


But thanks for playing! ;}

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 07:25:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:25:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <20020218235021.4959cedc.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <00c901c1b916$a630ce40$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you Jens for your commentary.


So the information is released quickly and production follows soon
after. If, as others have pointed out, they see economic benefit to
exploiting the technology.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 07:20:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:20:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
Message-ID: <20020218.232059.-113179.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Too bad man, it coulda been you :~)

Bari

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:28:57 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 01:05 PM 2/18/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hey Douglas Berry, did you do it?
> 
> Naw, the loving wife pointed out that:
> 
> a.  b.  work .
>

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 09:13:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:13:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <200202182158.g1ILwS121941@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202182158.g1ILwS121941@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <7n547ucg3huj3jj6mnfhssfqtmv45otqvi@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:58:28 -0800 (PST), Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
>> anything, it's been getting worse!

>Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
>line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it, 
>it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still 
>resounds in peoples minds.

Thus converting a continuing annoyance into some great satire, and
engendering not a few chuckles in the process!  Thanks; I needed that!

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 15:00:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:00:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
Message-ID: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>








<snip> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
guess) or did someone just Spam this list with this scam?

this is an actual Spam message. it has hit my office email twice and my
home email once.

the names are changed every time. and once they even got my name <boogle>
in the Dear xxx part

I am still at a loss for how these people acquired my email address. i can
understand my hotmail account being found and spammed. but my work account?
outside of this list and a personal friend no one has it. go figure.

Hasta











From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 16:13:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:13:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>

At 10:00 AM 2/19/2002 -0500, William Lane wrote:
><snip> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
>Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
>guess) or did someone just Spam this list with this scam?
>this is an actual Spam message. it has hit my office email twice and my
>home email once.
>the names are changed every time. and once they even got my name <boogle>
>in the Dear xxx part
>I am still at a loss for how these people acquired my email address. i can
>understand my hotmail account being found and spammed. but my work account?
>outside of this list and a personal friend no one has it. go figure.

There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, similar 
to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly formatted 
email addresses.


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Character, the willingness to accept responsibility
for one's own life, is the source from which
self-respect springs." - Joan Didion
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 16:41:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (eholmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:41:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Olympic Alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219093846.026ac550@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>

Doug:

I can't believe you picked the PL's wife....at least go for the company 
CO's horny wife....

And was she really "lovely"?

Eric

At 07:01 AM 2/19/02 -0800, you wrote:
>the night I  literally fled naked from the bedroom window... of my platoon 
>leader and
>his lovely wife!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:28:04 +0800
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>

At 11:13 AM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:

>There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, 
>similar to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly 
>formatted email addresses.

And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name via 
Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages which 
have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and you'll 
find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered that my 
name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had made 
out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it for spambots?

-- Rachel

p.s. Maybe now that Yahoo is considering fees for services, I'll finally 
have to go get a credit card so I can pay for a decent (read: different) 
service.  How'm I gonna get all 1000 people on the Lightwave list to follow 
me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:11:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:11:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
Message-ID: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81C@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Woo-hoo!  I  have  just  won  the  old "Traveller's  Digest:  Visit to
Antiquity" on the german E-Bay. How cool is that?
Sadly, I lost my bid on the "Atlas" though...
<

Very nice! Traveller's Digest #1-3 are the hardest to get! 

FWIW, I was hugely disappointed in the Atlas when I got it. I'd trade it
for Digests easily!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:11:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81F@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I have some at Beowulf Down,<
>>>Weapon section can be accessed at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons

Thanks! These are both good refrences!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:41:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:41:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3C724814.9921.BD3B7C@localhost>

I've gotten it at least once myself, and forwarded it to the FBI etc...
and the response was pretty much typical


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 20:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:32 EST
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>

I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people) so 
miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago with 
my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is the 
cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's 
worth it.

My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?

Hope you can help.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 21:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:00:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As you all have heard, the tml is getting spammed on the digest list.

I will be updating sendmail to include real time blackholing.  Hopefully,
this will reduce or eliminate the spamming on the TML.  I will be testing
first, before I roll out.  I will let everyone know the moment things
change.

Thanks, Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 20:04:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:04:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C72AFE3.6060901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> At 11:13 AM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, 
>> similar to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly 
>> formatted email addresses.
> 
> 
> And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name 
> via Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages 
> which have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and 
> you'll find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered 
> that my name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had 
> made out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it 
> for spambots?
> 


Rachel...isn't your name and e-mail address in your web pages? It may 
not be Yahoo, then...all they're saying is that they don't sell your 
e-mail address.

You cannot display or encode an e-mail address on the web these days 
where it isn't findable...after all, the web is nothing more than a 
gigantic freeform flatfile database, and only polite searchbots pay any 
attention to the 'dont search here' headers.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 21:19:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <memo.980635@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <50.6caad02.29a31617@aol.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I am doing precisely the same thing: particularly as I go to a lot of 
conventions and so either have to turn up with a vast pile of books 
because I may not know what I'm going to DM or play or miss out on a 
resource that turns out to be vital!

It's also easier for writing scenarios, not to have to find a reference 
but to have it there on the system.

Naturally, I confine myself to books I own and still possess...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:03:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <OF647C430E.AE4EE051-ON85256B65.00787104@pheaa.org>






<snip>
>My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

First to play ASL you should really have a good feel for playing the
Original Squad Leader. if you have that then i would say sure go for it.
However i have ASL and have never found anyone who wants to play it.
unfortunately i am one of those people who hates to play a game by myself
so i have never played it. stupid game have had it in my closet since like
the late 80's or some such.

bought it thinking it was the whole game and found out that it wasn't. i
needed to go out and buy Beyond valor to get the pieces. so i have the two
of them in the closet. unused. heck my counters are still in the sheets
they came in. 8P

<Snip>
>On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it
be?

Interesting idea. don't know if it had been done but would like to know
also.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:05:29 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
References: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C72CC29.93738983@visi.com>

> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?
> 
I would say yes.  But then I do like such things 
(which may or may not give you way too much insight
into me).  And given your concern about space, I don't 
know how better than mini's it would be.....

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?
> 
Nothing worth sharing (or digging out of storage).
Then again, I've done some real horrific things using
unrelated games as game-aids......

And, more to the point of your question, perhaps
Striker?  Or Stiker II?

> Hope you can help.
> 
Well, since I believe I didn't, you could look here:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/asl.php

with you query about solo play:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodsasl.php

although I thought it was to be rewritten...
and with you space concerns, maybe:

http://www.vasl.org/

> Charles
> 
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

-- 
Mark

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:18:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020219222017.UPIJ319.dorsey@link>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 at 20:24:36 -0000, Fabian <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>
typed:
>
>Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
>no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
>throughout the third world. However, the drugs companies prefer to keep
>their products expensive to raise profits, among other reasons. We in the
>'enlightened' world don't notice this because we are generally wealthy
>enough to afford what we need, it doesn't directly affect us, and the
>third world has no real voice in our media. The debacle with South Africa,
>our moderately close cousins, and AIDS drugs has recently brought it into
>the limelight.

John Le Carre's recent novel 'The Constant Gardner' touched on this.  And
is an excellent inspirational source for Traveller adventure ideas.

--Laning
Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience usually comes from bad
judgment.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:08:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:08:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>

However, in order to test this, we'll need some real spam.

HELLO! I'D LIKE TO BUY SOME CHINESE FORKLIFTS PLEASE!

I LOVE LAUNDERING NIGERIAN OIL MONEY!

OVER HERE!!


Listmom wrote:
> 
> As you all have heard, the tml is getting spammed on the digest list.
> 
> I will be updating sendmail to include real time blackholing.  Hopefully,
> this will reduce or eliminate the spamming on the TML.  I will be testing
> first, before I roll out.  I will let everyone know the moment things
> change.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80B0@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>That one's mine. Unfortunately the only bit I didn't write was the cargo 
generation bit.<

Thanks! It's a great supplement. I like these kind of immediatley useful
supplements. 

Hope this Andy's still around the list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:55:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traveller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <DKAAACCGHLHOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGACDAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Sounds like one of the Babylon 5 movies



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew Whincup
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February, 2002 00:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?


Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


I'm sorry I started this now.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:43:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80AF@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the
books, 
i am only doing it to compile space<

What if we all volunteer to keep 'archival copies' for you?  ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:14:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020219223913.61508.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020131112253.35418.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>

Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in the Klingon Empire.

Harry Mudd traded in...hmmm...slightly larger items...

At 02:39 PM 2/19/2002 -0800, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> > woman that humanity has
> > evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> > disgusted to find his
> > hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> > of dough.
> >
> > Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> > pie-in-the-sky
> > utopians to postulate the "perfect" society.
> > Unfortunately the actual
> > writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> > saloon keeper on a
> > space station?  You're going to need something that
> > he's greedy for.
> > How do the various interstellar polities trade?
> > etc., etc.
>
>Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
>must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
>Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
>forward thinkers.;)
>But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
>technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
>There's no way he could have made "money" off all
>those tribbles.

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:39:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:39:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131112253.35418.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020219223913.61508.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>


In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> woman that humanity has
> evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> disgusted to find his
> hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> of dough.
> 
> Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> pie-in-the-sky
> utopians to postulate the "perfect" society. 
> Unfortunately the actual
> writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> saloon keeper on a
> space station?  You're going to need something that
> he's greedy for. 
> How do the various interstellar polities trade? 
> etc., etc.

Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
forward thinkers.;)
But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
There's no way he could have made "money" off all
those tribbles.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:47:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:47:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
In-Reply-To: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80AF@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c1b99f$d8c0fef0$6401a8c0@goca>

All my stuff is in storage because I don't have room for it where I'm
living.  Electronic versions would be nice.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 14:44
To: INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Travelling light

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the
books, 
i am only doing it to compile space<

What if we all volunteer to keep 'archival copies' for you?  ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>

This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:54:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:54:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
> knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently works
for some categories of spam, however. ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:21:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Question
Message-ID: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>

What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
Character Builder CD?

What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David P. Summers wrote:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the knowledge 
> that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

In fact they rarely usubscribe from any list, but merely mark you as 'live'.

Moreover, when blocking domains from the server, DO NOT inform them that 
they are blocked, merely /dev/null the mail. Telling them they're being 
blocked only makes them look for new domains to block from.

And Listmom! Please don't use one of the nastier blackhole services, but 
one that actually makes a site able to get _off_ their blacklist once 
it's been put on...we had to wrestle with that...one time some dumba** 
of a blocking site admin decided to put *.Arizona.edu on the list 
because some of the nearly 20,000 hosts on arizona.edu allowed open 
relaying. Blammo...some of the biggest nets would no longer accept 
e-mail from the University.

I know you get endless complaints about spam, but if legitimate domaiuns 
get on these lists it is sometimes very hard to convince the spamnazis 
running these sites to remove them.

And it's a real bitch when your mail server is blocking legitimate 
access to your own users...

I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
e-mail, and think no more about it.

But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
missed.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:01:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Digest V2002 #170
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1b9a1$b51a08a0$0b01a8c0@duck>

I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
reprint.

What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?

Thank you.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 01:40:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:40:54 +0800
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <3C72AFE3.6060901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220093643.03147dd0@localhost>

Hi all!

>Rachel...isn't your name and e-mail address in your web pages? It may not 
>be Yahoo, then...all they're saying is that they don't sell your e-mail 
>address.
>
>You cannot display or encode an e-mail address on the web these days where 
>it isn't findable...after all, the web is nothing more than a gigantic 
>freeform flatfile database, and only polite searchbots pay any attention 
>to the 'dont search here' headers.

Yes, my webmail address is up on my webpage, but no, my private one (this 
one) is not.  I don't check my webmail very often, and when I do, I accept 
that 98% of the mail there will be spam.  On my personal address, however, 
I still get a lot.  I have probably 100 different filters going now.  It's 
particularly bad for me, I think, because I live in Taiwan, and my ISP is 
not too good about blocking spam itself (hinet is a source of lots of 
spam).  Sigh...  Anyway, I'm one of the people Lauren is talking about -- 
hope I don't get blackholed or blackballed or whatever!

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 01:58:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:58:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b898b305af84@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:54 PM -0800 2/19/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>  This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the
>>  "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they
>>  take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the
>>  knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
>
>Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently works
>for some categories of spam, however. ;)

That's an idea.  My mailer has a filter and I've been looking for 
good things to filter on....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:10:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:10:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers
References: <f4.16d94eef.299f48fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7305B0.90405@playnet.com>



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:


> One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
> reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, because 
> that's where the title goes. 


Don't you give them a template with placeholder title
and border pieces to work with and say "Your picture
goes under this"?

That's what we did for the box of our game.

-bloo


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:08:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
References: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>

Can you say "Wire Fraud"?

I knew dat ya' could.

-bloo

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
if you even think of entertaining the notions in
this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)

-bloo



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?
> 
> For those of you who missed it, here it is. I find this particular one 
> veryamusing, for reasons which should be obvious, and for which I hope to be 
> forgiven re-spamming the list.
> 
> ************************************
> 
>> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
>> From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
>> Subject: Preliminary introduction
>> 
>> Dear Sir;
>> 
>> My name is Linda Bongo, I am the Group Managing Director of Commerce Bank 
>>Limited. I contact you in order to intimate you with a certain state of 
>>affairs that I am sure will inspire your interest.
>> On the 5th September 2000 , I received a notice from the administrative 
>>department of my bank informing me of the death of one of our customers. 
>>
> The 
> 
>>late man was an American businessman his name is Frederick Wiseman III. Mr. 
>>Wiseman was a very visible businessman known to many of us, he has been a 
>>customer of my bank for over 2 decades and he has lived in Africa for over 
>>
> 5 
> 
>>decades.
>> Upon receipt of the news of Mr. Wiseman's death, I initiated the normal 
>>procedures which included the notification of his next of kin to inform 
>>
> them 
> 
>>of his demise. To my utter surprise after due investigation,  Mr. Wiseman 
>>nominated a non existent Mrs. Wiseman  as his next of kin. Not knowing what 
>>next steps to pursue, I put the file in abeyance until such a time as 
>>somebody comes forward to lay claim to that status of next of kin.
>> Last September makes it exactly a year since Mr. Wiseman's death. Nobody 
>>
> has 
> 
>>still come forward. All my multifaceted investigations have revealed the 
>>
> same 
> 
>>conclusion; Mr. Wiseman died with no family ties.
>> Sir, I inform you that Mr. Wiseman had a balance of  $30 million dollars 
>>
> in 
> 
>>his domiciliary account at my bank. I contact you because I feel that we 
>>should work together and see ways we can profit from this most bizarre 
>>situation. My banks standard procedure under such a situation is to turn 
>>
> the 
> 
>>money over to the authorities. If you are aware of the sociopolitical 
>>realities of Nigeria, you will know that there are no set of people more 
>>corrupt than the government officials themselves. If I turn this money over 
>>to them, it will surely end up in their private bank accounts. Rather than 
>>turn the money in, I have decided to keep it for myself.
>> If you are ready to work with me, what I propose is as follows;
>> 1-I will nominate you as the next of kin
>> 2-I will direct that the funds be paid out to you.
>> Understand that I am the paramount administrative office of this bank and 
>>
> my 
> 
>>directives have immediate effect. Once we are of one accord, I will have 
>>
> your 
> 
>>name and address placed as that of the next of kin and I will commence the 
>>process.
>> Mr. Wiseman operated his account in a branch of my bank under the 
>>
> management 
> 
>>of a European gentleman, Mr. Schwechter, I have spoken with him and he has 
>>expressed preparedness to co-operate with me only if I  accept the 
>>responsibility of securing  the cooperation of the person who is to stand 
>>
> as 
> 
>>next of kin. For your cooperation all three of us will share the money 
>>equally. I can assure you that this is a straight forward business and I 
>>
> can 
> 
>>have it wrapped up in a weeks time.
>> If you find yourself interested in this project, then please contact me 
>>
> for 
> 
>>further information of linda_bongo@lycos.com or you may contact Mr. Martin 
>>Schwechter at martinschwechter@excite.com .Mr. Schwechter speaks French , 
>>German and English. He is a most agreeable man and I am sure he will be 
>>
> able 
> 
>>to explain further details to you.
>> Please consider this offer and let me know what your thinking is.
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> Mrs. Linda Bongo
>> 
>>
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:03:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:03:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b898b305af84@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014170615.7419.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> >Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently
> >works for some categories of spam, however. ;)
> 
> That's an idea.  My mailer has a filter and I've been looking for 
> good things to filter on....

Assuming you don't mind filtering out anything from a yahoo group ;) (or
special-case it)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:04:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:04:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>
 <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020219200253.0258ea80@mail.earthlink.net>

At 02:28 AM 2/20/2002 +0800, Rachel wrote:
And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name via 
Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages which 
have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and you'll 
find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered that my 
name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had made 
out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it for spambots?


I just did a search on my name and came up with 8 pages of messages from 
travellercentral.com, with a few others thrown in.  I didn't find any 
listings from any of the yahoo groups I am on.

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:05 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8u167u0ggtfcpoiuud0rpo91df0hspqe0v@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
>LKW

I would certainly be interested in such a product, of course depending
upon the price.  If the base price is too high, you might be able to
increase the perceived value by adding some of the material from the
site utilities area.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:04 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <0i167uc6eu0oqakt7jv8m19lisecmjo3q5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800, "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

It is my understanding that, by replying, though the spammer might
take you off the individual mailing list, they then can sell your
address to other spammers as being a valid address where the recipient
actually reads the message in detail.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
>e-mail, and think no more about it.
>
>But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
>missed.

Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
spam messages PER DAY!

To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
a great deal of the value of e-mail.

That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
labelling the apam as advertising.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:08:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:08:00 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>

> > One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
>  > reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, 
> because 
>  > that's where the title goes. 
>  
>  
>  Don't you give them a template with placeholder title
>  and border pieces to work with and say "Your picture
>  goes under this"?

Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they 
forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they 
can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and 
parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


For the spam part of the message:

Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message gdwgames@aol.com on the 
AOL please e-mail me first. I've been increasingly besieged by instant 
messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so 
I am blocking all but a restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why 
 in 25 words or less.



LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:09:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:09:25 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <5b.23399cea.29a46d65@aol.com>

> I would certainly be interested in such a product, of course depending
>  upon the price.  If the base price is too high, you might be able to
>  increase the perceived value by adding some of the material from the
>  site utilities area.

The gentleman uses a phrase with which I am unfamilar. What site utilities 
area?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:15:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:15:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221425.018a6d48@192.168.0.1>

At $30 (or less), that would be a no brainer purchase for me...

At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
>LKW

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:14:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...
In-Reply-To: <000801c1b9a1$b51a08a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221346.018e0bd8@192.168.0.1>

What's the URL?

At 06:01 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, Mike West wrote:
>I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
>their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
>(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
>year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
>I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
>Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
>However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
>reprint.
>
>What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
>SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
>were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
>it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
>the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
>any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Mike West
>mjwest@caddocourt.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:28:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:28:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>; from summers@alum.mit.edu on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:44:36PM -0800
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020219202842.D26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:44:36PM -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
> knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

That is my understanding, yes.  I simply add the sender of a spam to
my .procmailrc, directing any further messages to /dev/null.  I also
use this to kill messages from folks whom I wish not to hear ever
again.  It is a remarkably effective system.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:29:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:29:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:21:59PM -0500
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020219202955.E26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:21:59PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
> Character Builder CD?
> 
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
> 
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Well, I'd want C source, so that it could be compiled for Windows, Mac
OS and Unix.  But I am, perhaps, something of a geek:-)

Honestly, I can say that I wouldn't buy it.  No offense, but that's
not my bag.  Good luck with it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>; from sdaniels@playnet.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:08:52PM -0600
References: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com> <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020219203503.G26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:08:52PM -0600, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
> if you even think of entertaining the notions in
> this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)

I dunno--if one actually knew the parties involved personally, it'd be
rather a good scheme.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:37:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:08:00PM -0500
References: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020219203759.H26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:08:00PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first. I've been
> increasingly besieged by instant messages from people with names
> like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a
> restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why in 25 words or
> less.

You might wish to investigate jabber <http://www.jabber.com/>
<http://www.jabber.org/>.  It's an open standard for messaging, very
interesting, and has the ability to encapsulate AOL IM (AOL's blocked
'em, though), MS IM, IRC and several other protocols, as well as its
own.  It's a very clever scheme, and one I recommend to all my
friends.  There are client for every major OS, and more than a few
minor ones.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
progress (n): the process through which Usenet has evolved from smart
people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart
terminals                                --obs at burnout.demon.co.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:33:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>; from johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 05:43:30PM -0700
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020219203328.F26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 05:43:30PM -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
> spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
> sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
> junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
> e-mail, and think no more about it.

A large part is no doubt the offense at seeing what was once so great
a medium for communication abused so poorly.  I get the same feelings
regarding Usenet and HTTP.  I imagine that it's something of what a
doting father feels when his daughter reaches a certain age...

> But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
> missed.

Oddly enough, I've never worried about it too much.  One rarely
_needs_ to see what others write.  Exceptions do occur, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:49:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dennis Cherry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:49:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221425.018a6d48@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <002101c1b9c1$8fb1b7a0$2862a318@cox.rr.com>

Um...in a word..."Yes"  I actually bought the GURPS Creator Module for
Creation Workshop some months ago to do this very thing...I've even built
out races and some equipment...

Best of Luck --Dennis
>
> At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
GURPS
> >Character Builder CD?
> >
> >What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >
> >Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >
> >Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> >
> >LKW
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
> "The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
> business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
> private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
> administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
> top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
> enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:44:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:44:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220034638.WSQB319.dorsey@link>

I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
things.
(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke
(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
use the output from the software.  For instance, one of us could email a
file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
have the software.

It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
some standard format.

Giving the ability to do different editions of Traveller would be great,
and so would the conversion utilities!  :->

--Laning

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 at 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com typed:
>Subject: Question
>
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:59:09 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: ASL
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C731F0D.BAE29EF0@ameritech.net>



> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:32 EST
> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Subject: OT: ASL

<snip>

> Trouble is the
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if
> it's worth it.

If you enjoyed Squad Leader with the expansion modules (Cross of Iron,
etc.) you will probably enjoy ASL. 

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could
> it be?

One of the first topics I posted to when I first joined this list in '99
was Travellerizing Squad Leader. It never got much farther than
concluding that the SL engine is compatible with Traveller and some
discussions on specific technology effects and how to rate units. I
worked up a draft chart of firepower factors for various weapon types
that I might be able to recreate but further work on the project is
sitting uncomfortably on my back burner along with far too many other
ideas with merit that just never seem to reach suitable conclusions. 

Just me being a stereotypical gemini.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:20:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:20:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219222012.00bc46d0@mail.comcast.net>

At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Loren wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Good!  My reaction, that is...


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net New Email Address!!!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:04:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <3C732066.47EC8CAC@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Question

> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
> GURPS Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

I would be at least tentatively interested in such a product.
Particularly if the CG utilities were customizable for house rules,
altered careers, and whatnot.

>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

This would be a must I think.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:09:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:09:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020219210355.00a614a0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 10:08 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Wiseman wrote:

>Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they
>forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they
>can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and
>parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


And here I've always thought that Bill Keith's artwork did more to flesh 
out early Traveller than all of the verbiage produced by the big shots at 
GDW combined.

JPS




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:39:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:39:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202200438.g1K4ctw12378@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/19/02 at 07:21 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
>GURPS  Character Builder CD?

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Seeing as I've already been considering a purchase, this would
probably push me over the edge.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:48:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:48:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <0i167uc6eu0oqakt7jv8m19lisecmjo3q5@4ax.com>
References: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
 <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020219234859.00e4f6c0@buffnet.net>

At 08:35 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800, "David P. Summers"
><summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
>
>It is my understanding that, by replying, though the spammer might
>take you off the individual mailing list, they then can sell your
>address to other spammers as being a valid address where the recipient
>actually reads the message in detail.

why not just inform the people who are spamming you that you have a fee for
archiving their promotional data?  Make it a monthly charge, and then
inform them that if they don't pay, you will inform the credit agencies of
their failure to comply with payment schedules... ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:40:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:40:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Olympic Alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219093846.026ac550@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>
References: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219203834.00a06ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 AM 2/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Doug:
>
>I can't believe you picked the PL's wife....at least go for the company 
>CO's horny wife....

You assume that I did the picking.  And my CO was a mean SOB with a 
standing offer to take anybody on in the hand to hand pit.  About once 
every three months, some new fools would take him up on it.

>And was she really "lovely"?

Decorum prevents any further discussion. :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219203148.009f98d0@mindspring.com>

At 07:21 PM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?

I'd buy it.

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?

I'd pace the floors waiting for the UPS guy.

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

I'd carry the contents of the near-legendary Illinois storage shed on my 
back to Austin in a small gesture of thanks.  :)

>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Idea?  Include Traveller shipyard and the modular grav vehicle design system.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 05:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:22:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <F1181aQzHkQtMXitvVj00008843@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the 
investment?"


Sir,

     It might well be worth the cost of investment, if it is also going to 
be the only wargame you play for here on out.
     Visit any given games con and you'll notice that the ASL gang play 
nothing but ASL.  Before it was bought up, Avalon Hill used to host a nice 
yearly gaming con outside of Baltimore.  It used to be an exercise in 
temperal jigsaw puzzles for me; how many events could I enter and 
participate in within a given time span.  Most of the other folks attending 
had the same idea, unless they were there for ASL.
     The ASL crowd walked into one ballroom at the beginning of the con and 
didn't walk out again until it was over.  They did nothing but play ASL.  
They arrived with multiple 3-ring binders full of rules, boxes with maps, 
and trays of counters.  Some used handcarts to lug their stuff around.
     I've played SL and ASL, but I got the distinct impression that ASL had 
slowly grown with each new module into one of those games that rewards rules 
researchers and not game players.  You really need to put in quite a bit of 
time and keep a good index of rules handy to play ASL well.  The game 
doesn't reward the fellow who can plan a AFV-supported infantry attack.  
Instead, it rewards the fellow who can find the right rule.

     "On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could 
it be?"

     No reason why it shouldn't be.  The game has lots of designer notes.  
You can get all sorts of info regarding ROF, ranges, and the like of the 
games infantry weapons.  Using that data you could easily rate Traveller 
weapons in ASL terms.  The bigger stuff; AFVs, arty, squad weapons, etc., 
may prove harder though.
     Given the range inflating aspect of future weapons, you may run out of 
map boards to play on!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 06:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:58:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: ASL
Message-ID: <200202200656.g1K6uuQ02543@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>Subject: OT: ASL
>
>I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
...
>My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

  No. What scale of game? GDW did several that could be played by e-mail
with no changes except a die-roller, as they were intended solely for
double-blind play. 

  You could probably play _Imperium_ solo, but that's not WW2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:10:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:10:29 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>


Loren wrote :
> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first.
> I've been increasingly besieged by instant
> messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374"
> and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a restricted
> list. If you want on it, explain to me why
> in 25 words or less.

Perhaps it's because "gdwgames" looks like something that _might_
be a bit kinky ?

After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
and nurses" ?
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:10:28 +1300
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
In-Reply-To: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
>
> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it
> worth the investment?

IMO, No. It has never been a particularly playable game.

Personally, I'd stick with Squad Leader or go for something
completely different like SPI's Firefight.

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use
> with Trav? Could it be?

There's no real point, it's not really even adaptable to other
Earth wars, it is very heavily tied to the WWII concept and can't
easily be translated to something as close as the Korean or Yom
Kippur wars.

Translating it to simulate a Fulda Gap invasion or something like
Desert Storm would be a nightmare.

Me, I use Renegade Legion for Trav combat because it comes with
nice grav tank models
Anyway, Striker is a much beter set of rules for wargaming
Traveller. <grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:36:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221346.018e0bd8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEGFEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2002 11:14 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...


What's the URL?

At 06:01 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, Mike West wrote:
>I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
>their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
>(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
>year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
>I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
>Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
>However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
>reprint.
>
>What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
>SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
>were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
>it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
>the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
>any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Mike West
>mjwest@caddocourt.com

As you are concentrating on the Daryens or Darrians you might want to look
at some of the land grab sites which covered worlds in this region. Now
loudly blowing my own trumpet. Though not finished I have posted some items
on Cunnonic and Nonym. It was my take on these worlds that decided me that
the Daryens or Darrians are a quiet people with a big stick attitude to
those around them (when they can get away with it.)

Have a look at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran

Press the button labelled [Landgrab]

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:36:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEGFEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2002 8:22 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Question


What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
Character Builder CD?

What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

LKW

Replying "out loud" can I have that CD last week or earlier.

Antony

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 09:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:21:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Darrian Confedration c 986
Message-ID: <011e01c1b9f0$0da08dc0$8dcdd63f@customer>

> What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
> SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
> were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is
how
> it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
> the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
> any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?

Darrian Confederation at the end of 3FW 986

Stern-Stern   0223
Nonym         0321
Leberv          0325
Ektron          0326
Zamine         0421
Engrange      0425
Illium            0426
Roget           0427
Rore            0526
Mire             0527
Condaria      0528
Winston        0620
Terant 340   0622
Jacent           0624
494-908       0625
Darrian         0627
Entrope        0720
Torment        0721
Trifuge          0723
Nosea          0724
Spume          0727
Anselhome    0820

The Darrian Confederation was the same at the beginning of the 4FW 1082

Winston, Entrope and Angelhome were lost and Cunnonic was gained at the end
of the 4FW 1084

Interestingly, Margesi and Saurus were taken by the Imperium from the Sword
Worlds.

John Scarlett
Vive le Republic de Garoo!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 11:05:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:05:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <0i077uok001e6nhu6ra18l35qul8vrrv99@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:35:13 -0800 (PST), "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

That's absolutely correct, as has been proven over and over by people who
"unsubscribe" previously-unspammed addresses - only to find that address
quickly overrun by spam.

Find reputable companies "upstream" of the spammers, and complain about the
spam.  http://spamcop.net is a good way to do it.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 10:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:57:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020220105731.36145.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>

Besides, TOS did not seem to have a problem with money.  In at least
one episode, Kirk makes a comment about "earning our pay."  It's really
not until TNG and Star Trek IV that an anti-money bias comes through. 
IIRC, the Star Trek roleplaying game, which was based on TOS, had
payscales for Federation personnel.


--- Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
> That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in the Klingon
> Empire.
> 
> Harry Mudd traded in...hmmm...slightly larger items...
> 
> At 02:39 PM 2/19/2002 -0800, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> 
> >In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> > > woman that humanity has
> > > evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> > > disgusted to find his
> > > hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> > > of dough.
> > >
> > > Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> > > pie-in-the-sky
> > > utopians to postulate the "perfect" society.
> > > Unfortunately the actual
> > > writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> > > saloon keeper on a
> > > space station?  You're going to need something that
> > > he's greedy for.
> > > How do the various interstellar polities trade?
> > > etc., etc.
> >
> >Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
> >must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
> >Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
> >forward thinkers.;)
> >But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
> >technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
> >There's no way he could have made "money" off all
> >those tribbles.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
> Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
> of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
> smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 11:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:06:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <9o077u8p1d8sungddii8n62cki285btv4d@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:35:13 -0800 (PST), GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMME!
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 12:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:37:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1ba0b$5f45c8a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>


> I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with
others).
> I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people)
so
> miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago
with
> my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is
the
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's
> worth it.
>
Have you ever tried Ambush (Victory Games)?  You run a squad in ww2 Europe.
I believe there are also versions set in the Pacific.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 13:50:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:50:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <20020220034638.WSQB319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220084804.016c4db0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:44 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
>things.
>(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke

Oh so you want the non-gearhead version of the software. :-)

>(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
>usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
>But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
>use the output from the software.
>For instance, one of us could email a
>file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
>have the software.

This is a nice feature but sounds like bad marketing from a SJG point of view.

>It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
>some standard format.

Hmmm...something like a Traveller character sheet?

>Giving the ability to do different editions of Traveller would be great,
>and so would the conversion utilities!  :->
>--Laning
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 at 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com typed:
> >Subject: Question
> >What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
> >Character Builder CD?
> >What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 13:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:57:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
In-Reply-To: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:40:32PM -0500
References: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020220085734.G16007@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:40:32PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
> I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people) so 
> miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago with 
> my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is the 
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's 
> worth it.
> 
> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?
> 
> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?
> 
Have you ever looked at Up Front? Its roots are in Squad Leader, but it 
approaches the "fog of war" in an interesting way. It does not use a map
board although there are counters. 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 14:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:13:56 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #172
Message-ID: <170.91da75b.29a50924@aol.com>

> >Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they
>  >forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that 
> they
>  >can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and
>  >parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.
>  
>  
>  And here I've always thought that Bill Keith's artwork did more to flesh 
>  out early Traveller than all of the verbiage produced by the big shots at 
>  GDW combined.
>  
>  JPS

You shouldn't misunderstand what I am saying . . . when I say "All artists 
are flakes" I do not mean anything perjorative by it. Whatever part of their 
brain that makes them creative also makes them a little flakey. Dealing with 
that is just part of dealing with them, and it is something you ignore for 
the good ones. I have met many great artists over the years, and I admire 
them, because they get to show people what's in their mind's eye directly, 
instead of having to use the palpably inadequate medium of words ( I did a 
JTAS editorial on this subject a year or so ago, along with discussing why I 
felt illos were important in RPGs). 

I have said for years that one of my most important contributions to 
Traveller may very well have been to hire Bill Keith. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:21:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:21:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <200202201021_MC3-F2BE-DC05@compuserve.com>

Actually, how about contacting that company in italy that prints the 1st
edition AD&D manuals in 2"x2" books. 

I'd love to be able to fit the Traveller Book and the Traveller Adventure
in my shirt pocket!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:29:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:29:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C346E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hey, I represent that remark!!  Er...
Jesse :)




Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they 
forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they 
can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and 
parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


For the spam part of the message:

Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message gdwgames@aol.com on the 
AOL please e-mail me first. I've been increasingly besieged by instant 
messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so 
I am blocking all but a restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why 
 in 25 words or less.



LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:36:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:36:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML]Nipping it in the bud
Message-ID: <20020220153637.36985.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

If I were Lucan instead of mobilizing all those forces
to attack Dulinor. Why not just send a few spec ops
squads to take him and his family out? And maybe even
go along so he could personally take out Dulinor so he
too could make the claim to throne by "right of
assassination". 

But I get the feeling Lucan was a punk!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:07:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:07:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>

In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
eat sentient species and use them as cattle. 

I've often thought would it be like to throw these
babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
would happen.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:33:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:33:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
In-Reply-To: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220113143.00a84218@urbin.net>

Sounds like Kzin or Kur.

[yes, one of those proves I had tacky reading habits as a teen. Although I 
do get a kick out of the company that is republishing them.]

At 08:07 AM 2/20/2002 -0800, Gonzalez wrote:
>In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
>Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
>eat sentient species and use them as cattle.
>
>I've often thought would it be like to throw these
>babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
>would happen.

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:28:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:28:01 -0800
Subject: [TML]Nipping it in the bud
In-Reply-To: <20020220153637.36985.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220082623.009fbec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:36 AM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>If I were Lucan instead of mobilizing all those forces
>to attack Dulinor. Why not just send a few spec ops
>squads to take him and his family out? And maybe even
>go along so he could personally take out Dulinor so he
>too could make the claim to throne by "right of
>assassination".

Where was he?  All anybody knew was that Dulinor had left Captial on his 
private cruiser.  He could be anywhere.  That, and Dulinor had planned 
ahead, his brother commanded Illesh fleet.

>But I get the feeling Lucan was a punk!

No argument there.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:24:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220081959.009f7a50@mindspring.com>

At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
>After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
>"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
>and nurses" ?

Sadly, no.

Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves, when 
someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a dispatcher 
for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and wrote role-playing 
games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological tool for 
therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea that these 
were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere else doing things 
that are fun!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:37:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:37:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
References: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C73DED4.4040208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Gonzalez wrote:
 > In the Starfire universe there is a race called the Arachnids. In a
 > word, they come, they conquer, they eat sentient species and use
 > them as cattle.
 >
 > I've often thought would it be like to throw these babies into the
 > Traveller Universe just to see what would happen.


OOOhhh...A Kkree Arachnid Grudge Match! Wheee!

Realistically it would be something to unite the various polities in
known space, if the Arachnids were big and nasty enough, sort of like 
Turtledove's alternate history stuff.

But they would have to be really big and nasty to do that...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:39:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>

Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video 
store closed down.

I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another 
great adventure to pull on characters.

At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I 
was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).

I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the movie).

One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was 
passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless 
team put a round through it.

It blew up good.


------------------------------------------
"The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:33:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:33:46 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
> Character Builder CD?
> 
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
> 
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> 
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> 
> LKW
> 

Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:52:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

JR Holmes wrote:

> 
> Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
> the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
> quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
> spam messages PER DAY!
> 
> To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
> projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
> safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
> a great deal of the value of e-mail.
> 
> That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
> labelling the apam as advertising.


That is so bogus a study it's not even funny.

For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years now 
(since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some people 
complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, regularly post to a 
half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I get, on average, one to 
three unsolicited spams a week.

Oddly enough, if your enter Bruce Johnson into Google, the 4th result is 
my (old) Traveller pages...;-)

I'm not counting the junk mail I voluntarily recieve, mostly specials 
lists from various vendors I've purchased from, where I ALWAYS uncheck 
the box 'Can we use your e-mail address to...).

Webmaster@pharmacy.arizona.edu gets more, about 4 or 5 a week.

I don't know any particular things I do to avoid it, other than;

I don't post to Usenet.
I don't use irc or instant messenger programs.
I don't hand out my e-mail whenever I'm asked for it on a demo download 
or something. JoeBlah@blah.com gets all of that junk mail...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:16:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B89927E8.273F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/20/02 9:39 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video
> store closed down.
> 
> I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another
> great adventure to pull on characters.
> 
> At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I
> was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).
> 
> I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the movie).

Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
character <grin>. 

Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.

> 
> One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was
> passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless
> team put a round through it.
> 
> It blew up good.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde
> 
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:08:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com>



Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
> > Character Builder CD?
> >
> > What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >
> > Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >
> > Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> >
> > LKW
> >
> 
> Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator. 
Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
much resourse space.
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:18:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3C73E874.9090701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local 
> video store closed down.

Is it a NEW dvd? The DVD that has been released in the past was dubbed 
badly from a really worn theatrical film and had really bad sound.

If they remastered it I'll snap one in a heartbeat.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:16:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
In-Reply-To: <3C73DED4.4040208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014229003.4086.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> OOOhhh...A Kkree Arachnid Grudge Match! Wheee!
> 
> Realistically it would be something to unite the various polities in
> known space, if the Arachnids were big and nasty enough, sort of like 
> Turtledove's alternate history stuff.
> 
> But they would have to be really big and nasty to do that...

In practice, uniting the factions, except on a local scale, isn't really doable
anyway for logistical reasons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:38:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <3C73E874.9090701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220133708.00a8bc10@urbin.net>

At 11:18 AM 2/20/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video 
>>store closed down.
>Is it a NEW dvd? The DVD that has been released in the past was dubbed 
>badly from a really worn theatrical film and had really bad sound.

Good question.  I just saw the list surfing through Amazon.  I didn't dig 
into the details because I already have a copy.

Also out, The Starship Troopers Roughnecks CGI episodes.

>If they remastered it I'll snap one in a heartbeat.

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:38:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:38:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>And Listmom! Please don't use one of the nastier blackhole services, but

[deletion]

>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with
>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
>e-mail, and think no more about it.

I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
of email spam than junk snail mail.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:51:40 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3C73F03C.8020609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
> is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
> I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator. 
> Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
> much resourse space.

Actually Mac lans do not use more resources, despite what PC-Bigot 
syadmins say. NT 4 sucks as an Appleshare server, but it is a 'tacked 
on' service, and only does classic Appletalk (which Apple had started to 
move away from by the time SFM were put into NT4)

Win2K does Appletalk over IP which is much faster, and it's much more 
integrated into the OS, in that you simply designate a share as a 
Windows or Mac or both upon creation of the share.

In previous versions you had to run a separate Mac administrator module 
and there were a host of cross-platform problems when sharing a common 
directory.

That said, Mac OSX 10.1 and up do support smb:// constructs in the 
network browser just do smb://<windows computer name>/<share name> to 
connect to a Windows share. No Netbios support so you can't browse the 
network, alas.

Dave is not, ime, crash-happy, just slow as molasses. I've run it 
happily on my Powerbook 540 here at work. I get 3-4x faster file 
transfers using Win2k's Mac support over Dave.

As for decent emulation of Windows, I maintain that since Windows is a 
piss-poor emulation of the Mac, the native Mac OS is a vastly better 
Windows emulator than anything else...;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:11:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014232284.2767.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:


> I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
> mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
> of email spam than junk snail mail.

I probably get 20 messages a day of one sort of spam or another, but it's
rarely a challenge to deal with it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:37:05 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEENMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I would love it, buy it (at a reasonable price f course), and use it a lot.

Note only applies if it includes the CG utilities for MT and TNE :)

Peter 'Beest' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
How do I know that anyone is human? I have to take their word for it.
- -Sartre

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: 20 February 2002 00:22
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Question
>
>
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of
> the GURPS
> Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
> LKW
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:43:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:43:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <B89927E8.273F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220144053.00a87258@urbin.net>

At 10:16 AM 2/20/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 2/20/02 9:39 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
> > Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video
> > store closed down.
> > I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another
> > great adventure to pull on characters.
> > At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I
> > was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).
> > I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the 
> movie).
>Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>character <grin>.

Hmm...going for that suspension of disbelief thing there. :-)

>Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.

He wasn't included in the game.
Great lines though.  He filled out his will leaving everything to his 
proctologist.

The Sergeant Major was also an excellent character.

> > One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was
> > passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless
> > team put a round through it.
> >
> > It blew up good.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> > "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde
> >
> >
>
>--
>When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>--
>Tod L Glenn
>webmaster@travellercentral.com
>http://www.travellercentral.com
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com
>http://www.solsec.org

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <ML-2.3.1014232284.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C73FF2E.C5DCB190@premier.net>



Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> > I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
> > mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
> > of email spam than junk snail mail.
> 
> I probably get 20 messages a day of one sort of spam or another, but it's
> rarely a challenge to deal with it.

One of the best things about the way the (non-digest) TML currently
works is that it adds "[TML]" to the header of all posts.  That way, I
can skim through my e-mail and delete any non-TML e-mail unless I know
the sender.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:07:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:07:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <200202201507_MC3-F2DF-B2E6@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?<

Does anyone find it ironic that there is more mail ABOUT the Spam than
there is actually Spam? ;P

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:14:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:14:38 +0000
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <F249YILoygXLsxpTljB00017369@hotmail.com>

From: Gonzalez <doctor_romulus@yahoo.com>

     "In the Starfire universe there is a race called the Arachnids. In a 
word, they come, they conquer, they eat sentient species and use them as 
cattle."

Sir,

     There's a Keith adventure in one of the DGP publications revolving 
around a spider-ish race in a system along the trailing edge of the Rift.  
(somwhere twixt Vland and Ilelish, IIRC.)  Thanks to the history they've had 
with the rest of the universe, the Imperium keeps a very big thumb on them.  
Then the Rebellion occurs.
     The species is born paranoid and views all other sentients as a threat 
and/or challenge to surmount.  Oh, they also pay "homage" to their fallen 
opponents by eating their brains.

     "I've often thought would it be like to throw these babies into the 
Traveller Universe just to see what would happen."

     Genocide.  The first Major Race(s) that bump into them would bump them 
off.  The Hivers may toy around with the idea of manipulation, but IIRC the 
Starfire Arachnids used some sort of species-limited ESP for communication 
that defied translation.  The Hivers' manipulation may be just to get 
another Major Race bump them off.
     Setting them down somewhere trailing of the K'Kree and giving them jump 
dive might be nice.  Put them in HUGE STL colony ships that are slowly 
infiltrating K'Kree space.  The first K'Kree worlds contacted are just some 
piddling trade stations, go down quickly, and that gives the Arachnids jump 
drive.  Using their Arachnid-only ESP comms, they send the jump drive specs 
out to their bretheren in all the other colony ships.  That would give the 
K'Kree something to do!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
>http://sports.yahoo.com


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:53:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020221075353.A19841@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk
> snail mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my
> time to dispose of email spam than junk snail mail.

If I got the same amount of junk snail mail as I do junk email, I'd be
actively campaigning to have it outlawed.  I'd never have to buy any
wood for the fire, but what would I do with all the ashes?  I'd
probably have to get my chimney cleaned every month, too.

What junk email loses in annoyance value for being easy to get rid of,
it makes up in sheer volume.


- Tim
(who disposed of nearly 300 pieces of junk email in the last week,
almost as many items as the TML and using far more bandwidth)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:50:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:50:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b899bc62754c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:35 PM -0600 2/19/02, JR Holmes wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700, Bruce Johnson
><johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>><SNIP>
>>
>>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with
>>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
>>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
>>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
>>e-mail, and think no more about it.
>>
>>But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you
>>missed.
>
>Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
>the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
>quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
>spam messages PER DAY!
>
>To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
>projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
>safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
>a great deal of the value of e-mail.
>
>That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
>labelling the apam as advertising.

I agree with the last one.  I does nothing to interfer with someone's 
right to "speak" but simply allows someone the right to decide if 
they want to "listen".
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:55:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
 <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330103b899bd059bce@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:52 AM -0700 2/20/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years 
>now (since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some 
>people complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, 
>regularly post to a half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I 
>get, on average, one to three unsolicited spams a week.

I was in at ballpark until I was in a hurry to find a cheap fare and 
used several of the on-line travel sites.  I'm up to 6 messages a day 
and the rate is increasing.

In addition to requiring all spam be labeled as advertising, I would 
like to see a law that requires a spammer to answer inquires about 
where he got your address (so that those sites that that are selling 
the addresses of their customers can be held accountable).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:06:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:06:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020220210643.71326.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
> That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in
> the Klingon Empire.

It was? My memory must be slipping.
Still, my point applies all the same.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:59:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:59:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b899be1add54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:21 PM -0500 2/19/02, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>

Probably not much interest to me.  I'm using GT and if I have a CT/MT 
NPC all you really need to know, 80%+ of the time, are the skills 
that are easy to translate on the fly.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:34:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:34:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220081959.009f7a50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
> >"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
> >and nurses" ?
> 
> Sadly, no.
> 
> Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
> like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
> touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

Welcome to the Bay Area poly community.  Now you know why I left it in the
dust.

> We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves,
> when someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a
> dispatcher for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and
> wrote role-playing games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological
> tool for therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea
> that these were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere
> else doing things that are fun!

Wait until you find out how many of them are aggressive anti-military
pacifists, how many of them are "feminist" in the weirdest, worst ways,
and how quick they are to accuse you of being racist, ageist, classist,
"looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
people they find attractive), etc. if you have any kind of standard.

Have fun!

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:55:42 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEENMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C74D22E.9107.3FEEDB@localhost>

On 20 Feb 2002, at 19:37, Peter Scarrott wrote:

> I would love it, buy it (at a reasonable price f course), and use it a
> lot.
> 
> Note only applies if it includes the CG utilities for MT and TNE :)

Likewise.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:10:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:10:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hey ho Kiri,

> "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> people they find attractive), etc.

Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
I doing something really wrong here ?

Anyhow, I've never been identified as any form of "-ist" before now, so it's
nice to be finally labelled as something !!

Regards

Andy B




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:16:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:16:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3C73CBE7.3906.53FC0@localhost>

Dogs of War is another good movie for borrowing ideas from

and Final Option


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:06:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220220813.DIXU319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 08:50:10 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>At 10:44 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>>I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
>>things.
>>(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke
>
>Oh so you want the non-gearhead version of the software. :-)

LOL!

No, I just thought it would be rude to enumerate all the things I really do
want.  This was the most very basic minimum.  I'd prefer to sit down with
the lead developer, any UI guy involved, and the product manager for a
series of meetings to design the product.  Scratch that.  I'd prefer to
**be** the product manager.  That way I'd get the best "gearhead fix".   :->

>
>>(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
>>usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
>>But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
>>use the output from the software.
>>For instance, one of us could email a
>>file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
>>have the software.
>
>This is a nice feature but sounds like bad marketing from a SJG point of
view.
>

No, I think compatibility would be good SJG.  Unless you are the 900-pound
gorilla that is Microsoft, compatibility is a marketing advantage.  IMHO,
of course.

>>It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
>>some standard format.

>
>Hmmm...something like a Traveller character sheet?

Yep.  Zackly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:27:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com> <3C73F03C.8020609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com>

Just a brief header on this religious argument here, I neither 
promote or run down any religion ( OS ( Same Difference )) that I 
haven't had personal experience.

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
> > is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
> > I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator.
> > Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
> > much resourse space.
> 
> Actually Mac lans do not use more resources, despite what PC-Bigot
> syadmins say. 

MacPc Lan does use up significant resource space on older win 95/98
boxes, newer boxes is not so bad.

> NT 4 sucks as an Appleshare server, but it is a 'tacked
> on' service, and only does classic Appletalk (which Apple had started to
> move away from by the time SFM were put into NT4)

Nt in most of it's flavours has problems at best.
> 
> Win2K does Appletalk over IP which is much faster, and it's much more
> integrated into the OS, in that you simply designate a share as a
> Windows or Mac or both upon creation of the share.

I'll remember that if ever I put up a win2k box.
 
> Dave is not, ime, crash-happy, just slow as molasses. I've run it
> happily on my Powerbook 540 here at work. I get 3-4x faster file
> transfers using Win2k's Mac support over Dave.

I'll note that also, But Dave on 8100/80 running 8.1 will have you
tearing your hair out toot-sweet. The Mac2 is just too primitive to
worry about finding a net cat for it. Thou if it was cheap enough I
would go for it.
 
> As for decent emulation of Windows, I maintain that since Windows is a
> piss-poor emulation of the Mac, the native Mac OS is a vastly better
> Windows emulator than anything else...;-)

Try running 8.1 or any of you 6.1 release soft.... I don't know about
Os ten, but every thing since 7.5.2 has been far more crash happy
then my various windows boxes.

OBTrav:

This is why Vilaini authorities don't allow various programing groups
have events close to each other. There is also threat of a heretic
coming up with a connectivity solution. ( the patent courts would
have a fit of hypoxia over that bit of Vilaini IP law )


-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:30:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220144053.00a87258@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <B8996376.27553%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/20/02 11:43 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
>> Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>> character <grin>.
> 
> Hmm...going for that suspension of disbelief thing there. :-)

OK.  Got me. I'm more the intelligent planner with glasses type.
> 
>> Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
> 
> He wasn't included in the game.

For shame!!

> Great lines though.  He filled out his will leaving everything to his
> proctologist.
> 
> The Sergeant Major was also an excellent character.
> 
Hardy Krueger anyone? Best crossbow scene I can remember (Though I loved the
opening shot in 'Final Option')


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:35:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:35:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <3C73CBE7.3906.53FC0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C7424C8.401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

shadowcat wrote:
> Dogs of War is another good movie for borrowing ideas from
>

I'd agree with you if 'The Wild Geese' weren't such a damn good film of 
the book 'The Dogs of War';-)

The _movie_ 'the Dogs of War' really really sucked, compared to the book...

Besides, by far, more of the camaigns I've run or been in have been a 
lot closer to 'Kelly's Heroes' than any of the previously mentioned films.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:46:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Uses for RPGs (was Re: Covers & Spam)
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220224830.DNXZ319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 08:24:22 -0800, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> typed:
>Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
>like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
>touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

Hey, being out of fashion should not be a strike against one's character.
I suspect most of us on the TML grew up with exactly that problem because
we were nerds, geeks, or whatever.  Just had to interject this point, but
that's not really what prompted my reply.

>
>We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves, when 
>someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a dispatcher 
>for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and wrote role-playing 
>games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological tool for 
>therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea that these 
>were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere else doing things 
>that are fun!

RPGs in education.

A year or so ago, I went to an EverQuest Fan Faire (con of about 1,000
people who were more-or-less avid players of EverQuest).  It was held at a
nice hotel and started on a Friday afternoon.  There was a conference
ending that same Friday of professional educators interested in exploring
future uses of computers in education.  I ended up talking an hour or so
with one of the conference goers.  He's maybe 50 years old and a very
qualified educator first, good computer person second.  He was curious what
all of us weirdos were trickling in for, and I tried to explain it to him.
Turned out his young teenaged son at home plays D&D and he himself is
acquainted with the basics of D&D, as well as computer games like Doom and
very much less so with MUDs.  He's an intelligent and imaginative,
thoughtful person so he seemed to get a pretty good grasp of what a 3D
graphical MUD would be like.  He started looking for the angles where it
would be useful in education.  So we talked about MOOs and such too, which
is a type of MUD invented by educators, specifically for educators and
students.


A MUD is just an RPG played with the rules and the GM all operated by a
computer, and the physical descriptions of the game and the characters
handled by the computer.  The computer uses lots of pregenerated text from
writers who helped design the MUD.  In a graphical MUD, the physical
descriptions are replaced by pregenerated art from artists who helped
design the MUD.  Like pencil n paper RPGs, MUDs vary in quality a great
deal, from crude first attempt by one or two hobbyists to huge corporate
efforts (like EverQuest which required about $4 million in development
money before the public ever saw it).

One of the things the educator and I were both keen on is the use of
graphical MUD technology as an interface for doing other things.  My own
opinion has been for awhile that the interface that will be most familiar
to the Internet-using public will be based on graphical MUDs.  Cyberpunk-,
VR-style stuff.  The educator was intrigued by that but was still looking
for more education-specific and immediate applications.  Well, I wish I
could report on what specific applications he talked about, but my body has
been severely sleep deprived since 1995 and that means my memory is riddled
with holes.  Half of it was too laden with jargon and cutting-edge
education stuff for him to explain in the time we had remaining, anyway.
It sounded interesting, and I thought at the time he had some good ideas
that a gamer probably wouldn't have thought of.  I have to say I was
impressed with how open he was to taking new and woolly ideas seriously,
even coming from some ponytailed guy in jeans and a "Billgatus of Borg" tee
shirt.

RPGs in psychology.

Many of you are probably aware of Philip Jose Farmer's 'World of Tiers'
series of books.  A few years ago, someone wrote PJF a letter telling him
about a psychological treatment center for troubled teens that was using
his books as part of their group therapy.  Each kid had to choose one of
the "Lords" characters from PJF's universe that they thought fitted them
and had to roleplay that character over an extended series of sessions.
(PJF was inspired by this to write another story in the 'World of Tiers'
about what happens to such a kid when they find out it isn't just a
roleplaying game, btw.  :-)

Also, didn't GDW itself start with a bunch of people applying gaming to
education?  Did Traveller or even En Garde ever get used for educational
purposes?  (I consider En Garde to be either an RPG or a proto-RPG, so I
include it in this discussion.)  Many of us have had other wargames used in
educational settings, but I'm only regarding roleplaying games, here.

RPGs in the military or is it education again.

And of course, institutions of higher learning in the military world take
roleplaying games very seriously.  Generals and admirals at the National
War College, RAND Corp., and various similar places take many courses that
consist almost entirely of each student playing the role of a different
nations' top leaders and are confronted with some crisis situation.  This
has been going on for decades, at least.

--Laning
"As long as I can remember, I've had amnesia."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8E9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
eat sentient species and use them as cattle. 

I've often thought would it be like to throw these
babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
would happen.
<

FWIW, I've changed the K'k'ree into an instect-like race so I could have
Starship Trooper like adventures along these lines. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8EC@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Also out, The Starship Troopers Roughnecks CGI episodes.<

Very awesome show! For some reason, I couldn't find anyone intersted in a
Traveller campaign based on this! 

Also, has anyone ever seen deckplans for the Dark Star?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] starport bars?
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8ED@compuserve.com>

I know there have been a couple of articles describing Starport Bars and
Taverns, but I can't seem to find any of them.

anyone remember where these are?
thanks!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:01:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:01:50 -0600
Subject: [TML] Eneri's Heroes
In-Reply-To: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>

hmm...
easily done for a striker scenario...

3 Intrepids and supporting troops, call it a platoon
bank full of Iridium or platinum



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:09:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:09:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220231113.DVJM319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 10:16:09 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
>
>Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>character <grin>. 
>
>Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
>

I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory, but yeah that was a good
character.  I'd probably take that part.  Most memorable bit in the whole
flick for me was when Roger Moore pulled a grenade out of one pocket of his
suit coat.  He'd pulled an auto pistol out of the other pocket earlier.
Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

The movie wasn't really that well done, but it was okay.  I'm trying to
remember, wasn't it just a bad film version of a Frederick Forsythe novel?
Whatever the answer to my question, if you really want good inspirations
for Traveller adventures, go to Frederick Forsythe.  'Day of the Jackal'
doesn't adapt all that well to most Traveller groups since it is basically
about a lone assassin, but 'The Dogs of War' (great mercenary adventure) is
a classic.  Classic.  Forsythe's research for 'The Dogs of War' was so good
that the British Parliament wanted to ask him some very pointed questions.
Because the book was a barely fictionalized account of what had actually
happened.

Right now, my character in Tod's game has been identifying with the
protagonist in 'Day of the Jackal' quite a bit.  Except my guy got picked
on first and is merely retaliating.  :->

--Laning
Trying to think of a good line from 'Psycho Killer' by The Talking Heads
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:09:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1014246577.0.52763300@www.springmail.com>

GDWGames@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of
> the GURPS
> Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>

I'd pay ~$20 for something like this if it:

1) supports all official versions of Traveller to date (CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20*), including conversions.
*(if allowed under the OGL, which I suspect it may not be)

2) allows printout onto standard character sheets, detailed printouts showing every die-roll/decision (survival, promotion, aging, etc.), and short-form '1001 Characters'-style listings for masses of spear-carriers.

3) includes char-gen for each of the Major Races (for CT and GT, not necessarily for those versions that never had it to start with)

4) is expandable/customizable so that, for instance, I could add new careers/templates and/or alter entries on the skill-receipt tables

If it doesn't include 3 and/or 4 I'd likely still buy it (depending mostly on its pricetag), but 1 and 2 are absolutely essential.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:12:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <007301c1ba64$221b3970$9307b286@Shane>

Andy reckons:
> Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the
desperate,
> and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
> and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful
person
> they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
> people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or
am
> I doing something really wrong here ?

According to Socrates, we should look for affirmation not in what is
*normal*, but what is *reasonable*.  Sometimes they're the same thing,
sometimes they're not.  In this case, however, my call has to go with Andy
(and the masses at large).  To be attracted or not attracted to someone
sexually isn't something we have any real measure of control over.  Sorry,
but if she or he just doesn't do it for me, my beast ain't gonna co-operate.
Nothing personal.  I think what these "looksist" accusers (and let's be
honest - these are likely very ugly people) are complaining about is people
who are untactful about their discrimination.

> Anyhow, I've never been identified as any form of "-ist" before now, so
it's
> nice to be finally labelled as something !!

I think your best response to such accusations is, "I'm sorry, I prefer the
term 'whining-prat-ist'." :)

ObTrav:  Kinda Bill Burroughs in derivation but... Wacky theocracy obsessed
with the sanctity of genetic "uniqueness".  Breeding rights are handed out
selectively, with preference going to the more deformed, asymmetric and
otherwise "special" members of the species.  Sacred degeneration.  The
mutated are celebrated for their beauty, and the insane for their wisdom...
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Tuppence to see the Freak!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:30:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:30:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201518280.24518-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Andy Brick wrote:

> Hey ho Kiri,
> 
> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > people they find attractive), etc.
> 
> Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
> and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
> and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
> they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
> people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? 

One would think so, but there are people who consider this "oppression of
ugly (or should I say 'attractiveness-challenged') people".   Don't worry,
I'm a looksist, too.

In the local poly community, there are several individuals who regard me
as a horrible racist (because I am suspicious, based on past experience,
of white guys who have a 'thing' for Asian/Amerasian women-- ESPECIALLY
the uber-liberal goofballs who refuse to speak proper Japanese because
they think it's demeaning, and in general prefer Asian men, although those
who know about my Tyr Anasazi crush know it's not necessarily exclusive of
non-Asians), a horrible ageist (because most of my boyfriends are younger
than me and I refuse to date any man who reminds me of my father), and a
vicious looksist (because all my boyfriends have been relatively
good-looking). I am also considered something of a sexist because even
though I'm bi, I don't generally have the same kinds of relationships with
women that I do with men.

Yes, indeedy deed, PC has begun to eat itself.   (Or rather, there's a new
switch on, "you're a b*tch if you won't sleep with me.)

I had a local individual tell me he found me horrifying because I did not
base my sexual/romantic relationships wholly and solely on "intellectual
compatibility" and try to erase the person's race, culture, religion and
appearance from my mind when evaluating them for a romance.  Which he
considered the only ethical stance.

Never mind the fact that race, culture and religion may have a lot to do
with the types of interactions that I am likely to have with this person,
or even if we can sit down and eat a meal together (I can't imagine dating
an Orthodox Jew or a vegan and not having problems with this).  

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:26:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <20020220231113.DVJM319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220182421.00ad4eb0@urbin.net>

At 06:09 PM 2/20/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 10:16:09 -0800, Tod Glenn
><webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
> >Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
> >character <grin>.
> >Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
>
>I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory, but yeah that was a good
>character.  I'd probably take that part.  Most memorable bit in the whole
>flick for me was when Roger Moore pulled a grenade out of one pocket of his
>suit coat.  He'd pulled an auto pistol out of the other pocket earlier.
>Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
>was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
>Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

That was actually Richard Harris' character.  It was the scene in London 
where they were fighting off London mobsters out to kill Moore's character.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:32:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Eneri's Heroes
In-Reply-To: <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>; from res053z0@gte.net on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 05:01:50PM -0600
References: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com> <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020220183205.A21183@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 05:01:50PM -0600, shadowcat wrote:
> hmm...
> easily done for a striker scenario...
> 
> 3 Intrepids and supporting troops, call it a platoon
> bank full of Iridium or platinum
> 
And on the other side, a Vargr leading the strategic reserve armor force...

yours,
Michael

-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:47:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Thyme)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:47:43 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <003e01c1ba69$3ca715c0$d412530c@default>

Wash your keyboard out with soap!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:10 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam


> 
> Loren wrote :
> > Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> > gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first.
> > I've been increasingly besieged by instant
> > messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374"
> > and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a restricted
> > list. If you want on it, explain to me why
> > in 25 words or less.
> 
> Perhaps it's because "gdwgames" looks like something that _might_
> be a bit kinky ?
> 
> After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
> "normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
> and nurses" ?
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie
> 
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:58:31 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C74D22E.9107.3FEEDB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C743827.1060902@telocity.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>On 20 Feb 2002, at 19:37, Peter Scarrott wrote:
>
>>I would love it, buy it (at a reasonable price f course), and use it a
>>lot.
>>
>>Note only applies if it includes the CG utilities for MT and TNE :)
>>
>
>Likewise.
>

Can the one SJG is selling right *now* be programming to do other sorts 
of character generation, like CT/MT/TNE, or is it specifically for Gurps 
point based CG?

Eris

>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 00:03:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Uses for RPGs (was Re: Covers & Spam)
Message-ID: <memo.19081@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020220224830.DNXZ319.dorsey@link>
Greetings dear hearts.

A subject after my own heart :-)

I am working on getting roleplaying games included in my college's 
"Enrichment Programme" which is a weekly session where the students do 
anything from first aid to computer skills, cooking, sports, whatever. 
There is definite interest from the programme organisers, basically I now 
have to put something together for them.

In the UK, we have a thing called 'Key Skills' which all 16-19 years have 
to do, which consists of Application of Number, Communication, IT, Working 
as a Team, Problem Solving and Improving Your Own Performance. While not 
strictly speaking necessary, Enrichment activities are supposed to 
contribute... you can argue that most if not all of these can be enhanced 
and developed while role-playing, what's more the kids will have fun (and 
they moan about taking key skills classes...).

I have members of the scociology and psychology departments sniffling 
around too... maybe it's a bad move to write scenarios in the faculty 
lounge at lunchtime :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 00:00:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:00:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220155522.009ed820@mindspring.com>

At 10:10 PM 2/20/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hey ho Kiri,
>
> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > people they find attractive), etc.
>
>Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
>and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
>and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
>they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
>people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
>I doing something really wrong here ?

No, you are right.. but there are people in the poly community that still 
see it as one big orgy, and if you decline their invitation, your are 
somehow a bad person.  And God forbid you should be a veteran who likes 
guns.  Trust me folks, Kiri was being generous with her description of the 
SFBA poly scene.  I felt like I was trapped with either Mr. Roger's 
extended family, or the Stepford Liberals.

ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced with therapy and 
encounter group meetings so eveyone can be in the right space... and 
*extremely* close personal interaction is considered to be part of the therapy.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 02:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:29:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <20020220231113.DVJM319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B8999B9F.276A1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/20/02 3:09 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory, but yeah that was a good
> character.  I'd probably take that part.  Most memorable bit in the whole
> flick for me was when Roger Moore pulled a grenade out of one pocket of his
> suit coat.  He'd pulled an auto pistol out of the other pocket earlier.
> Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
> was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
> Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

Actually, It was Richard Harris (Rafer Janders).  They were saving Roger
Moore (Sean Finn)
> 
> The movie wasn't really that well done, but it was okay.  I'm trying to
> remember, wasn't it just a bad film version of a Frederick Forsythe novel?

Not Fredrick Forsythe.  I have the book somewhere.

> Whatever the answer to my question, if you really want good inspirations
> for Traveller adventures, go to Frederick Forsythe.  'Day of the Jackal'
> doesn't adapt all that well to most Traveller groups since it is basically
> about a lone assassin, but 'The Dogs of War' (great mercenary adventure) is
> a classic.  Classic.  Forsythe's research for 'The Dogs of War' was so good
> that the British Parliament wanted to ask him some very pointed questions.
> Because the book was a barely fictionalized account of what had actually
> happened.

Not the first time FF got in trouble.  He also had some problems after Day
of the Jackal because he'd done a lot of 'research' on how to get a false
passport.
> 
> Right now, my character in Tod's game has been identifying with the
> protagonist in 'Day of the Jackal' quite a bit.  Except my guy got picked
> on first and is merely retaliating.  :->
> 
> --Laning
> Trying to think of a good line from 'Psycho Killer' by The Talking Heads
> tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
> hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

"I'm tense and nervous and I can't relax.  I can't sleep 'cause my beds on
fire.  Don't touch me I'm a real live wire."
> 
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 02:40:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:40:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller chats?
Message-ID: <85n87u48a6bbplg769nlhr3hlt52khmnim@4ax.com>

As in, would anyone like to see these resurrected?

As channel manager, I think they could be done - but I need to know...

(a) What do you want them to be?  IOW, should they be formal moderated
chats, informal unmoderated chats, Special Guest chats (this might be hard
to arrange, on a case-by-case basis), ?

(b) When is the best day of the week and time of day to hold them?

(c) What subjects would you like to see?

(d) Is there anything else I should have asked and didn't?  If so, what?
And what's the answer?

I don't have an objection to seeing discussion of this on the list, but if
listmom or the membership think it's problematical, you can respond to
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 03:08:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:08:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220155522.009ed820@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220210737.04b733c0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

Dear Mr. Berry,

You are hereby given notice to cease and desist from using phrases such as 
"the Stepford Liberals" as they make fizzy beverages pass through my nose 
(owwwww! owwwwwww!).

Damn keyboard kills.....

Victor

At 04:00 PM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>At 10:10 PM 2/20/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>Hey ho Kiri,
>>
>> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
>> > people they find attractive), etc.
>>
>>Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
>>and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
>>and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
>>they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
>>people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
>>I doing something really wrong here ?
>
>No, you are right.. but there are people in the poly community that still 
>see it as one big orgy, and if you decline their invitation, your are 
>somehow a bad person.  And God forbid you should be a veteran who likes 
>guns.  Trust me folks, Kiri was being generous with her description of the 
>SFBA poly scene.  I felt like I was trapped with either Mr. Roger's 
>extended family, or the Stepford Liberals.
>
>ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced with therapy and 
>encounter group meetings so eveyone can be in the right space... and 
>*extremely* close personal interaction is considered to be part of the therapy.
>
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 03:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:07:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201518280.24518-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220210624.04b73ec0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

Dear Kiri,

You rock!  Way to go!  (sez the mixed-race Native American/Scottish bi poly 
guy)

Victor

At 03:30 PM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>
> > Hey ho Kiri,
> >
> > > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > > people they find attractive), etc.
> >
> > Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
> > and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
> > and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful 
> person
> > they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
> > people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ?
>
>One would think so, but there are people who consider this "oppression of
>ugly (or should I say 'attractiveness-challenged') people".   Don't worry,
>I'm a looksist, too.
>
>In the local poly community, there are several individuals who regard me
>as a horrible racist (because I am suspicious, based on past experience,
>of white guys who have a 'thing' for Asian/Amerasian women-- ESPECIALLY
>the uber-liberal goofballs who refuse to speak proper Japanese because
>they think it's demeaning, and in general prefer Asian men, although those
>who know about my Tyr Anasazi crush know it's not necessarily exclusive of
>non-Asians), a horrible ageist (because most of my boyfriends are younger
>than me and I refuse to date any man who reminds me of my father), and a
>vicious looksist (because all my boyfriends have been relatively
>good-looking). I am also considered something of a sexist because even
>though I'm bi, I don't generally have the same kinds of relationships with
>women that I do with men.
>
>Yes, indeedy deed, PC has begun to eat itself.   (Or rather, there's a new
>switch on, "you're a b*tch if you won't sleep with me.)
>
>I had a local individual tell me he found me horrifying because I did not
>base my sexual/romantic relationships wholly and solely on "intellectual
>compatibility" and try to erase the person's race, culture, religion and
>appearance from my mind when evaluating them for a romance.  Which he
>considered the only ethical stance.
>
>Never mind the fact that race, culture and religion may have a lot to do
>with the types of interactions that I am likely to have with this person,
>or even if we can sit down and eat a meal together (I can't imagine dating
>an Orthodox Jew or a vegan and not having problems with this).
>
>Kiri  ^_^
>
>******************************************************************************
>Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
>tiamat@tsoft.com
>
>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
>Everything starts wearing fresh colors
>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
>Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 03:07:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:07:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] FW: Darrian page
Message-ID: <000201c1ba84$f73d6590$0b01a8c0@duck>

[My first attempt didn't seem to get through.  Sorry if this is a
duplicate.]
> What's the URL?
>

The URL is http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller .  Then just click one of
the Darrian links.  It is just a beginning right now, I will be adding
stuff as I go along.  I do have AM8, so I have most of the info I need,
I am just trying to make sure I don't include too much of it.  I plan
on assuming that people know the "big" stuff that is in AM8 and just
adding more "color" and planet information.

As an aside, I do recognize that the Darrians were probably bigger
that what I show for year 0.  But I really felt that they needed
to show significant change over 1000 years, and decided to make
Zamine a "client state" instead of an actual member and to make
Entrope a budding independent community that will get squashed
by the Sword Worlds.

> As you are concentrating on the Daryens or Darrians you might want to look
> at some of the land grab sites which covered worlds in this region. Now
> loudly blowing my own trumpet. Though not finished I have posted some
items
> on Cunnonic and Nonym. It was my take on these worlds that decided me that
> the Daryens or Darrians are a quiet people with a big stick attitude to
> those around them (when they can get away with it.)
>
> Antony

I have seen your landgrabs and am trying to make sure I don't conflict.

I do want to note that I had been consistent on calling them the Darrians
instead of the Daryens because I can't generate those maps.  (The way I
got the maps is by taking the one on the 1100 page and using cut-n-paste
to make the others.)  Over time, however, I will probably be changing
the names of the four offending planets to that given in the Regency
Sourcebook.  I am just not there yet.

I have also landgrabbed Mire and Jacent.  I will have those up soon, too.
I freely admit that I plan on continuing to landgrab more of the Darrians,
but I also want to be reponsible enough to finish what I have before
taking more.

And thank you very much John!  That list is exactly what I need to
finish that page.  Now I can change a couple of governments and tech
levels and it will be done too!

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 05:32:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:32:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller D20
References: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C748681.2A5BC361@together.net>

> From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
> Subject: Traveller D20
> 
> I was wondering if this has been released yet? also what about the
> traveller JTAS book 1?
> 

	The Traveller D20 book is due out in March:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/ and check the Release Schedule. 

	The Traveller Reprints of both JTAS books (FFE006 and FFE007, ie all of
the JTAS issues) are now at the printer and will be out in early March:
http://www.farfuture.net/ The big black home page said so. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 03:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:46:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220093643.03147dd0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEJADLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes, my webmail address is up on my webpage, but no, my private one (this
>one) is not.  I don't check my webmail very often, and when I do, I accept
>that 98% of the mail there will be spam.  On my personal address, however,
>I still get a lot.  I have probably 100 different filters going now.  It's
>particularly bad for me, I think, because I live in Taiwan, and my ISP is
>not too good about blocking spam itself (hinet is a source of lots of
>spam).  Sigh...  Anyway, I'm one of the people Lauren is talking about --
>hope I don't get blackholed or blackballed or whatever!
>
>-- Rachel

I have Cox broadband. Until recently this was an @home ISP. If the amount of
spam I get is any indication they do no filtering at all. I use a multitude
of filters, none of which seem able to keep up with the constantly changing
domains used by spammers. Short of simply sending all mail from addresses I
don't recognize (something I'm reluctant to do since I sometimes get mail
from people who are acquaintances, like TML members or people I've met at
conferences or meetings, as well as family and friends) I don't know what to
do.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 04:34:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:34:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <200202210229.g1L2TrK25210@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16dkvP-0006o7-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>

> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> > At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
> > >After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
> > >"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors and
> > >nurses" ?
> > 
> > Sadly, no.
> > 
> > Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people
> > looked like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very
> > concerned, in touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.
> >  *shiver*
> 
> Welcome to the Bay Area poly community.  Now you know why I left it in
> the dust.

I'm very glad folks like that exist, they can definitely be good to 
have around, gods know I'd prefer too much of that sort of fluffiness 
to the sort of mean cynicism and general nastiness exhibited by 
*way* too many people I've run into.  Sure, a few people like that 
can be way too flaky to deal with, but they also tend to be far 
kinder and more considerate than the norm. 

OTOH, the stuff about roleplaying is fairly odd. 

When I mentioned what I do for a living I find people assume that I 
write computer games, this annoys me, since I don't even like to 
play many computer games (I prefer games I play to have other 
people in them).

The most bizarre story I've heard was someone foolish enough to 
look for roleplayers by posting a newspaper personals ad (in the 
activities column, so they weren't totally off-base).  He found 1 
gamer that way, and a *whole* lot of exceedingly 
clueless/desparate people in the kink community who assumed 
that role-playing involved whips leather and similar gear.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 04:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:26:25 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Games in Education
Message-ID: <fb.21fb924d.29a5d0f1@aol.com>

> Also, didn't GDW itself start with a bunch of people applying gaming to
>  education?  

Yes. Before there was a GDW, Frank Chadwick, Marc Miller, Rich Banner and 
myself were employed by Illinois State University designing games for 
classroom use. We ran a simulation of the election of 1896, a Witch hunt a la 
Salem in 1690, and some other stuff I've forgotten. We lasted two semesters, 
then Illinois elected a Republican governor and the funding was cut.

>   Did Traveller or even En Garde ever get used for educational
>  purposes?

Rob Prior uses games in his classes, Traveller included. They learn math and 
group dynamics while thinking they are playing a game..

 The Game Manufacturer's association has a volunteer who puts out a 
newsletter on Educational uses of Games -- www.gama.org, I think, but you'll 
have to hunt around a bit.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 04:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:38:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <OF10D6A455.430FF873-ON85256B66.006E9B72@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <B899B9E2.27707%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:10:23 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Question


In reference to this i would love it especially if it allowed for
conversions in all directions. ie from traveller up to Traveller d20 and
from Traveller d20 to Classic Traveller (the only true traveller in my mine
8) )

anyway if you make it ill buy it.

hasta




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 04:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:38:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller D20
In-Reply-To: <OF54F8BF27.8BEF9CA1-ON85256B66.006ED497@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <B899B9C4.27706%listmom@travellercentral.com>

From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:11:53 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Traveller D20


I was wondering if this has been released yet? also what about the
traveller JTAS book 1?

Thanks Bill




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 04:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:05:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220210737.04b733c0@vraymond.mail.iastate.e
 du>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220155522.009ed820@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220230348.019e6ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 09:08 PM 2/20/2002 -0600, Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>Dear Mr. Berry,
>You are hereby given notice to cease and desist from using phrases such as 
>"the Stepford Liberals" as they make fizzy beverages pass through my nose 
>(owwwww! owwwwwww!).
>Damn keyboard kills.....

He came *that* close with me on that one too.

However, I was drinking Jack Daniel's and no way am I sharing that with my 
keyboard.

>At 04:00 PM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>At 10:10 PM 2/20/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>>Hey ho Kiri,
>>> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
>>> > people they find attractive), etc.
>>>Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
>>>and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
>>>and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
>>>they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
>>>people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
>>>I doing something really wrong here ?
>>No, you are right.. but there are people in the poly community that still 
>>see it as one big orgy, and if you decline their invitation, your are 
>>somehow a bad person.  And God forbid you should be a veteran who likes 
>>guns.  Trust me folks, Kiri was being generous with her description of 
>>the SFBA poly scene.  I felt like I was trapped with either Mr. Roger's 
>>extended family, or the Stepford Liberals.
>>ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced with therapy and 
>>encounter group meetings so eveyone can be in the right space... and 
>>*extremely* close personal interaction is considered to be part of the therapy.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
>Black as the devil, Hot as hell, Pure as an angel, Sweet as love.
>-- Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Perigord; recipe for coffee
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 07:29:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:29:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Nasties
In-Reply-To: <200202210229.g1L2TrK25210@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020221073115.GZEX319.dorsey@link>

OnWed, 20 Feb 2002 at 17:52:09 -0500, Michael Taylor
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> typed:
>FWIW, I've changed the K'k'ree into an instect-like race so I could have
>Starship Trooper like adventures along these lines. 

I decided a couple of months ago to do exactly the same thing with the game
I'm setting up.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 07:47:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:33 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220155522.009ed820@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEBDHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced
> with therapy and encounter group meetings so eveyone
> can be in the right space... and *extremely* close
> personal interaction is considered to be part of the
> therapy.

Didn't they have one of those in Star Trek ?  Deltans or
something ?

I'm currently finishing reading Harry TurtleDove's "Colonization"
trilogy.

While it's not great literature, Kassquit and Jonathan Yeager's
research into inter-cultural sexuality between human members of
The Race and Tosevites gave me lots of ideas for interactions
between star-faring races.

Not to mention some great speech patterns for use with Bwapps.

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 07:47:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:31 +1300
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <3C73CBE7.3906.53FC0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEBDHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

shadowcat wrote:
> 
> Dogs of War is another good movie for borrowing ideas from

Not to mention that it stars Christopher Walken.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 08:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:51:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
References: <00ca01c1ba78$e9eab700$51d2aad1@r4j7y7>
Message-ID: <00a201c1bab5$001afc60$14c8d63f@customer>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Loyle Scarlett 
  To: John Scarlett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:41 PM
  Subject: Fw: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Odettesch@aol.com <Odettesch@aol.com>
  To: Afapri@att.net <Afapri@att.net>
  Date: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:16 PM
  Subject: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!




  Please read, follow up and pass on to your E-Mail correspondents.

  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:47 PM
  Subject: FW: FYI - US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!!



  Subject: FW: FYI - US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!!

  Federal Bill 602P: 5-cents per E-mail sent! 


  It figures!  No more free E-mail!  We knew this was coming!!  Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to put a 5-cent charge on every delivered E-mail. 

  Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using E-mail.  The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States' attempt to quietly push through legislation that will affect our use of the Internet. 

  Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be allowed to bill E-mail users a surcharge under an "alternative postage fee."   
  Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at the source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by their ISP. 

  Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. 
  The US Postal Service is claiming that, due to the proliferation of E-mail, it is losing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." 

  Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day -- or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular Internet costs. 

  Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a service they do not even provide. 

  The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency.  It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If the US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. 

  Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the governments' proposed 602P E-mail charges.  Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful concept whose time has come."  (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! 

  Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and relatives to write their congressional representative and say:  "NO" to Bill 602P. 

  It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want. 

  PLEASE FORWARD! 



  God Bless America!   
     Carol 
  Carol M. Yarman 
  Manager, Purchasing 
  Time Warner Cable-Natl. Division 
  303-649-8017 






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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 07:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:49:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <200202210229.g1L2TrK25210@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020221075142.HBGH319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 18:26:40 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
<<<SNIP>>>
>>Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
>>was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
>>Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

>
>That was actually Richard Harris' character.  It was the scene in London 
>where they were fighting off London mobsters out to kill Moore's character.

Aha!  Thanks for the correction.  :->

And whoever cited 'Kelly's Heroes' as a movie with potential for Traveller
scenarios, I love you man.

A friend of mine used to run Traveller tournaments based on 'Where Eagles
Dare', another great inspiration.  He also had fun inflicting the Keith
Bros' excellent 'Mountain Environment' rules on people for the scenario.

Whoever said 'Dogs of War' the film was horrible, too right.  The book was
great, though.  Just like 'Force 10 From Navarone' the book was an awesome
sequel to 'The Guns of Navarone', but the film version of 'Force 10' was
abysmal.  Add Alastair McLean to Frederick Forsythe's name on the list of
authors who provide tons of great Traveller inspirations.

Speaking of great WW2 adventure films that make great Traveller adventures,
has anyone ever tried adapting 'The Bridge Over the River Kwai' as a
Traveller adventure?  I'd really love to do it, but it just sprawls over
too many characters in different locations to adapt well, is my take.

Shifting to western flicks, I have to nominate the 'The Wild Bunch' as
another Traveller adventure source.

All of the sources I've mentioned are very combat and/or military oriented.
 Which is just one kind of fiction I like.  I love other stuff too.  One of
the best Traveller adventures I've ever played in was a thinly veiled 'The
Sun Also Rises'.

Maybe the trick to finding good adventure sources is avoid novels/films
centered on one protagonist too much, and pick things that involve the main
characters doing things as groups.  Thoughts?

--Laning
"If anyone moves, kill 'em."  -The first line spoken in 'The Wild Bunch'
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 08:13:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:13:13 +0100
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020221091313.276fea20.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
> like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be
a
> Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  Surely some
> group will be called bubble heads for that type of helmet, etc.

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20001015.html

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 08:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:19:42 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>
References: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>
Message-ID: <20020221091942.19e41c5e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Peter Newman wrote:
> Vargr heads are supposed to look very wolf like. The
> problem with this head is that it's too _big_. Vargr
> are smaller than humans and their heads are proportionately
> smaller yet the Vargr's head looks to be the same size
> as the humans head (it looks a little bigger but the
> Vargr is a little closer), this is wrong. Where is
> this Vargr's neck?

Sorry, I cannot help myself, but...

"The Vargr you are about to see has no f**king neck!"

OK, so it's been too long since I Experienced RHPS...  ;-)

> The Vargr is wearing a military uniform. 'Obviously'
> the (mostly human) military in question has published
> specifications for all its military footwear requiring 
> them to have heels. The fact that Vargr boots don't need
> heels is less important than the fact that regulations
> require boots to have heels. ;)

This is a reason that does not seem all that improbable to me. I'll go for
that one if anyone asks. It fits well into my picture of the Imperium as a
huge, inflexible bureacracy.

There could very well be other problems like this when aliens are
concerned, causing all sorts of comical or at the very least slightly
uncomfortable situations. I imagine, for example, a K'Kree soldier
(unusual, I know, but it might happen) feeling very confined by a uniform
with a high neck.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 08:24:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:24:53 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202211022290.2535-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Andy Brick wrote:
> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > people they find attractive), etc.
[snip]
> they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normalfor
> people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
> I doing something really wrong here ?

Well, I would imagine that this is the norm. 

Without never having met these people, I would imagine that they are
mostly people that most would find unattractive. B-/

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 09:01:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:01:54 +0900
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <00a201c1bab5$001afc60$14c8d63f@customer>
References: <00ca01c1ba78$e9eab700$51d2aad1@r4j7y7>
 <00a201c1bab5$001afc60$14c8d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <3430669832.20020221180154@greimann.de>


>   Subject: FW: FYI - US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!!
HOAX!





-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 09:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:11:41 +0900
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
 <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <4031256174.20020221181141@greimann.de>

>> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>> Character Builder CD?
>> 
>> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
>> 
>> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>> 
>> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
Hmm,  ask Hunter Gordon to join you and include the Chargen for T20 as
well. Make it one prg for everyone. And you might be able to shave off
some cost in the process.




-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 09:42:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:42:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202210229.g1L2TrK25210@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey ho Kiri,
> 
> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > people they find attractive), etc.
> 
> Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the
> desperate, and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a
> blinding headache and find themselves next to something completely
> unlike the beautiful person they met the night before at *that* party,
> isn't it perfectly normal for people to have sex with people that they
> find (visually) attractive ? Or am I doing something really wrong here
> ?

Nope, it's perfectly normal and *everyone* does it (whether they 
admit it or not).  I read a study a while back that (in the US at 
least) there was one group that faces notably worse prejudices 
than the one's black people have to face: ugly people.  If you are 
significantly ugly (based on common US aesthetics), not only will 
your love-life suck, but you will have a *much* more difficult time in 
school, finding jobs and in just about any other area you can name. 

The (quite fun) movie "Vanilla Sky" does a good job of depicting 
this sort of thing.

That's one of the things that I think will be striking about TL 10 or 
11+ societies.  Between being able to do both *minor* genetic 
engineering and near-perfect plastic surgery, there won't be any 
ugly people, any deformed people, or anyone else who falls 
physically outside the acceptable range.  I imagine someone from 
a TL 6 world who has scars and similar problems will be either 
considered fascinating or horrific.   

Anyway, back to the original OT question, being "Looksist" is 
normal, but I've run into too many people that take it much to far.  
I've met a number of men (and a few women) who quite honestly 
will not look twice at someone as a potential romantic partner if 
they don't look like a model.  I think such people have serious 
issues and can easily see considering such looksism as being a 
significant prejudice.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 09:50:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:50:36 +0900
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
In-Reply-To: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81C@compuserve.com>
References: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <10633591955.20020221185036@greimann.de>


> FWIW, I was hugely disappointed in the Atlas when I got it. I'd trade it
> for Digests easily!
Nah!   I'd only have wanted it for archival purposes. The one I really
wanted, I got...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 09:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Martin)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:21:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] unsubsribe
Message-ID: <3C74BC29.BCCF7A44@gci.net>

attn list managers

please unsubscribe me from this list
-- 
Richard Martin

email:
asrlm@gci.net
asrlm@uaa.alaska.edu
akoldgamer@alaska.com

"Nam iet ispa scientia potesta est" 
(Knowledge is power)
		Francis Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 11:04:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:04:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] unsubsribe
In-Reply-To: <3C74BC29.BCCF7A44@gci.net>
Message-ID: <B89A145A.27895%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/21/02 1:21 AM, Richard Martin at asrlm@gci.net wrote:

> attn list managers
> 
> please unsubscribe me from this list


Send email from the subscribed address to majordomo@travellercentral.com
with the following in the BODY of the email:

unsubscribe tml
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 11:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:14:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Games in Education
In-Reply-To: <fb.21fb924d.29a5d0f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C748220.30988.109813@localhost>

Heres a link to a group that promotes using historical minatures in education, with sample 
rules and game suggestions even.

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~pgfritz/index.html

it covers a whole bunch of different time periods, and has some useful links too.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 12:33:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:33:24 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202211430370.2535-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I've met a number of men (and a few women) who quite honestly 
> will not look twice at someone as a potential romantic partner if 
> they don't look like a model.  I think such people have serious 
> issues and can easily see considering such looksism as being a 
> significant prejudice.

Hm, what means the word "attractive"? Does it just connotate a
good-looking person, or can character or something other non-physical
thing matter here?

(I may be biased, but I have seen about three ugly people during the time
I have been counting. [About ten years.])

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 13:12:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:12:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
Message-ID: <20020221.081205.-260817.0.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:51:46 -0600 "John Scarlett"
<jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
>   Subject: FW: FYI - US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!!
> 
>   Federal Bill 602P: 5-cents per E-mail sent! 

Do people still fall for this?  This is one of the oldest internet hoaxes
out there, along with the 'kidney thieves' and 'needels at the gas pumps'
tripe.

http://www.scambusters.org/otherhoaxes14.html#Postage
 
>   Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested 
> a "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and 
> beyond the governments' proposed 602P E-mail charges.  Note that 
> most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only 
> exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail 
> surcharge "a useful concept whose time has come."  (March 6th, 1999 
> Editorial). Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! 

Note that 'Congressman Schnell' doesn't actually exist.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 13:13:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:13:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202211430370.2535-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>; from mvparvia@cc.hut.fi on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:33:24PM +0200
References: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net> <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202211430370.2535-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020221081347.A2621@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:33:24PM +0200, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > I've met a number of men (and a few women) who quite honestly 
> > will not look twice at someone as a potential romantic partner if 
> > they don't look like a model.  I think such people have serious 
> > issues and can easily see considering such looksism as being a 
> > significant prejudice.
> 
> Hm, what means the word "attractive"? Does it just connotate a
> good-looking person, or can character or something other non-physical
> thing matter here?
> 
> (I may be biased, but I have seen about three ugly people during the time
> I have been counting. [About ten years.])
> 
"attractive" and "ugly" are, while not quite orthogonal, measured on
axes that are far from coincident. Personally, I have become much more
open to seeing 'not ugly' but 'not attractive'. 'ugly' frequently involves
more than mere appearance. A face that smiles even a bit while relaxed
adds a lot to attractiveness. 

Maybe I am just redefining terms to suit me...I would not necessarily
contest such a charge. 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 13:24:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:24:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <00a201c1bab5$001afc60$14c8d63f@customer>; from jlscarlett@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:51:46AM -0600
References: <00ca01c1ba78$e9eab700$51d2aad1@r4j7y7> <00a201c1bab5$001afc60$14c8d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <20020221082432.B2621@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:51:46AM -0600, John Scarlett fell for the 
wetware email virus:
[snip]
> 
> 
>   Please read, follow up and pass on to your E-Mail correspondents.

This is the first RED flag that something is suspicious. Any email that
urges you to pass it on is (arguably) a variation of a chain letter.
Read it _real_ carefully before you jump off that cliff.

A quick look at snopes.com found an extensive article on this hoax that
they date back to 1999 (and in Canadian, American, and Australian forms).

snopes is your friend...

If you get such an email from someone, it doesn't hurt to write back
to them to tell them what was wrong with their post. Maybe they will
learn.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 13:46:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:46:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
Message-ID: <200202211346.HAA52176@nm1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

>ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced with therapy and
>encounter group meetings so eveyone can be in the right space... and
>*extremely* close personal interaction is considered to be part of
the
>therapy.

"How do you do rishathra?"


Rob D.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 14:42:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:42:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <20020221082432.B2621@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1bae5$ec252920$6401a8c0@goca>

Shit that ancient postal charge scare is STILL running around?  Did
anyone ever even consider how difficult (if not impossible) this would
be to put in place?  ( not to mention prohibitively expensive for the
Post Office ).

Rumours like this are just plain illogical.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Houghton
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 05:25
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!

Howdy!

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 02:51:46AM -0600, John Scarlett fell for the 
wetware email virus:
[snip]
> 
> 
>   Please read, follow up and pass on to your E-Mail correspondents.

This is the first RED flag that something is suspicious. Any email that
urges you to pass it on is (arguably) a variation of a chain letter.
Read it _real_ carefully before you jump off that cliff.

A quick look at snopes.com found an extensive article on this hoax that
they date back to 1999 (and in Canadian, American, and Australian
forms).

snopes is your friend...

If you get such an email from someone, it doesn't hurt to write back
to them to tell them what was wrong with their post. Maybe they will
learn.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 14:56:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <20020221091942.19e41c5e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020221145648.15053.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

The backdrop is beautiful. The foreground looks very
awkward , or out of place next to it. If you could
make a background that good, why don't you make a
foreground of similar quality. I'm an artist myself,
and I dislike art that is so blatanly computer
generated.I think you should create heads/faces for
these characters. If I'd submitted this painting to my
teachers they would have downright embarassed me. I
think your doing yourself a great injustice using
those pasted photos. Especially in light of that
wonderful backdrop.
-Dan.
 
Be the change that you want to see in the world.
-Gahndi.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 15:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:18:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEBDHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220155522.009ed820@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221071754.009ed9b0@mindspring.com>

At 08:47 PM 2/21/02 +1300, you wrote:
>Not to mention some great speech patterns for use with Bwapps.

The jaw hanging open for laughter, emphatic and interrogative coughs.. yes, 
I can see some uses.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 15:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:27:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <20020221091942.19e41c5e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>
 <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221072401.009ef5d0@mindspring.com>

At 09:19 AM 2/21/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Sorry, I cannot help myself, but...
>
>"The Vargr you are about to see has no f**king neck!"

"I would like.."

(A neck!)

"..if I may,"

(You may NOT!)

"To take you,"

(Where?)

"on a strange journey."

(How strange was it?  So strange, they made a movie about it!)

>OK, so it's been too long since I Experienced RHPS...  ;-)

You and me both.

*sigh*  Sometime this weekend, between written binges, I'll probably filk 
some of the songs from the movie.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 15:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:57:26 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Games in Education
In-Reply-To: <3C748220.30988.109813@localhost>
References: <fb.21fb924d.29a5d0f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221235525.038beec0@localhost>

Hi all!

I know of a guy here in Taiwan who uses RPG's in ESL teaching.  Seems like 
a great idea, and I'd have done it a long time ago if I had more freedom as 
to my curriculum.  I can put up the URL of the guy's site if anyone wants 
it.  (I.e., I'm too lazy to go dig it out right now.)

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:07:05 -0700
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:42:26AM -0800
References: <200202210229.g1L2TrK25210@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020221090705.A9737@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:42:26AM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That's one of the things that I think will be striking about TL 10 or 
> 11+ societies.  Between being able to do both *minor* genetic 
> engineering and near-perfect plastic surgery, there won't be any 
> ugly people, any deformed people, or anyone else who falls 
> physically outside the acceptable range.  I imagine someone from 
> a TL 6 world who has scars and similar problems will be either 
> considered fascinating or horrific.   

I would imagine that such technology would be horrible in the long
run--much of what we consider unattractive is IIRC the result of
genetic flaws.  Consider a world in which natural selection has been
utterly stymied: medicine cures every ill; surgery corrects the
evidence of flaws; technology makes even the stupid smart.  Now
imagine that said society suddenly no longer has its crutches
(e.g. the Long Night).  Frightening.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:21:19 -0700
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020221081347.A2621@saltmine.radix.net>; from herveus@Radix.Net on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:13:48AM -0500
References: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net> <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202211430370.2535-100000@mimosa.hut.fi> <20020221081347.A2621@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <20020221092119.B9737@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:13:48AM -0500, Michael Houghton wrote:
>
> "attractive" and "ugly" are, while not quite orthogonal, measured on
> axes that are far from coincident.  Personally, I have become much
> more open to seeing 'not ugly' but 'not attractive'.

I'd agree with you.  There are many girls I don't find attractive, but
who are not actively ugly.  Failing to be attractive is simply a
matter of taste--e.g. I most definitely do not care for Julia
Roberts--but ugliness is something more.  One might say that beauty is
in the eye of the beholder, but ugliness is in the beheld.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
		Peoples Front To Reunite Gondwanaland
	      `Stop the Laurasian Separatist Movement!'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:34:46 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <20020221075142.HBGH319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C7521A6.7080507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Laning wrote:

> Shifting to western flicks, I have to nominate the 'The Wild Bunch' as
> another Traveller adventure source.
> 
> All of the sources I've mentioned are very combat and/or military oriented.
>  Which is just one kind of fiction I like.  I love other stuff too.  One of
> the best Traveller adventures I've ever played in was a thinly veiled 'The
> Sun Also Rises'.
> 
> Maybe the trick to finding good adventure sources is avoid novels/films
> centered on one protagonist too much, and pick things that involve the main
> characters doing things as groups.  Thoughts?
> 

Absolutely...'Oceans Eleven', 'Sneakers', most old 'Mission Impossible' 
plots..just about *any* ensemble caper flick works. If there's a really 
strong protagonist, you can always turn him/her into the patron if 
necessary.

Many action movies can be mined for ideas...it'd be really hard to run a 
game on a 'Die Hard' plot, but there's a LOT of plot hooks to steal out 
of  them. I LOVED the 'water jug' bomb in DH3...that was 
inspired...that's one to pull on your players in real time.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:21:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8EC@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C751E77.90205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> Also out, The Starship Troopers Roughnecks CGI episodes.<
> 
> Very awesome show! For some reason, I couldn't find anyone intersted in a
> Traveller campaign based on this! 
> 
> Also, has anyone ever seen deckplans for the Dark Star?
>
well, it's pretty simple...it's a standard Sulieman Scout with the 
basement of the UCLA Film School attached to the bottom ;-)




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:41:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Games in Education
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221235525.038beec0@localhost>
References: <fb.21fb924d.29a5d0f1@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020221235525.038beec0@localhost>
Message-ID: <fc.00870b2f0106075b3b9aca00542738b1.10608c3@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>

Rachel, please send me the url.

The info for the battle of the Alamo is going to work out great (Taught Texas
History for 6 years and hopefully again next year) and roleplaying might
actually work out in American History.

TV

__________________________________________________________________
          What is our aim? Victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of
all terror;  
Victory how ever long and hard the road may be.   
                                                           Sir Winston Churchill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:48:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:48:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Arba Trade Volume
Message-ID: <3C7524EC.B16E23A4@mail.cswnet.com>

>From the Arba Port Director...

I have just finished up compiling BTN's and EBTN's for Arba in the
following categories:

1. All worlds 6 parsecs or less from Arba, using direct route
2. All Imperial Hi population worlds and subsector capitals in the 
   Spinward Marches not listed in 1., using Jump-2 routes to Arba
3. All non-Imperial Hi population worlds not listed in 1., using
Jump-2    routes to Arba
4. Selected worlds beyond the Spinward Marches, using Jump-2 routes to
   Arba

Category 1.
Dt per year 8455-21250
Passengers per year 270-1295
The notable worlds here are:
          BTN  EBTN
Lunion    7.5   7.5 [due to low wtn rule, max BTN for Arba 7.5]
Gram      7.0   7.5
Villis    6.0   6.0
Sacnoth   6.5   6.5
Lanth     6.0   6.5
Adabicci  6.5   6.5
Saurus    5.0   5.0 [typical average BTN for Arba]
Tavonni   2.0   2.0 
Iron      1.0   1.0 [lowest BTN for Arba in this category]

Category 2.
Dt per year 18765-45160
Passengers per year 560-2755
The notable worlds here are:
          BTN   EBTN
Strouden  7.5    7.5 [low wtn rule]
Mora      7.5    7.5 [low wtn rule]
Fornice   7.5    7.5
Glisten   7.0    7.5
Trin      7.0    7.5
Aki       6.5    6.5
Pallique  6.5    6.5
Jewel     6.0    6.5
Rhylanor  6.0    6.5
Of these, Strouden, Mora and Fornice account for roughly
70 percent of trade volume.

Category 3.
Dt per year 680-1395
Passengers per year 50-120
Notable worlds are:
          BTN    EBTN
Mire      6.5     7.0
Darrian   5.5     5.5
Collace   5.5     5.5
Chronor   4.5     5.0
Retinae   3.5     3.5 [smallest BTN for HI pop world]
Of these, Mire has the bulk of the volume.

Total all above Categories:
Dt per year 27900-67805
Passengers per year 880-4170

Interesting that Arba is not part of a trade route, does not
even qualify as having a minor trade route, yet apparently has
a respectable trade volume for its size.

Category 4.
world     range from Arba  BTN  EBTN  Dt per year Psgrs per year
Vincennes      29pc        6.5   7.0    50-100       10-50
Vland         107pc        4     4.5     0-5          nil
Capital       182pc        4     5       0-5          nil
Terra         386pc        3     3       0-1*         nil
*Terra's Dt per year ranges from Cr5000 to Cr10000

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
aka Dr Evil Junior [!?], Arba Port Director, among other things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:47:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:47:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] TL12 Constructor Bot
Message-ID: <3C7524B2.276FD4E@mail.cswnet.com>

Constructor Bot

D180A-N0-LM113-T343  Cr388,000  4763.26KG
                                 TL12
L=29  M=30  N=33 T=150               600/1500 mesh
Fuel=1248liters [52 day supply]
Ground Pressure: 4.76326  Power/weight ratio: 20
Speed: 160kph road, 48kph off road

Basic Sensor Package, Voder, 2xspotlights,
Radio 500km, ECM, Program interface, Video recorder,
Magnetic sensor, Radiation sensor, Mass sensor,
Power interface, Accoustical speaker.
1 Construction Tool [any 1 of the following]:
Crane [lifts 12 tons]
Earth mover [moves 120m3 per hour]
Digger [digs 6m3 straight down, or 18m3 excavating]
Programs:
2 ATV-2
12 Civil Engineer-2
2 Cargo Handling-1
2 Commo-1

Design Worksheet:

Books used:  Book 8 robots, Book 8 robot errata, MT referee's guide, 
T4 Central Supply Catalog[for construction tool].

power     liters       weight       price                 item
  --       +3000v      300kg      Cr6000      TypeVIIB Boxwedge
-200     +1000v      100kg      Cr2000      Head[turret]
+500     -500v       2000kg     Cr250000  Fusion Plant urp8
           -1248v       87.36kg    --              Fuel
-150     -150v        250kg           Cr7500      Transmission wheels
-20      -1000v       1000kg          Cr12000     suspension wheels
-12      -1000v       1000kg          Cr5000       construction tool
-4        -6v            3kg          Cr1700       basic sensor pkg
-1        -2v            .5kg         Cr1000       magnetic sensor
-1        -2v            .5kg         Cr1200       radiation sensor
-2       -10v           1kg          Cr10000      mass sensor [TL11]
-2        -4v            2kg          Cr100         2xspotlights
-3        -8v            4kg          Cr600         video recorder
-1.5     -2v            1kg           Cr500          radio, 500km
-1.5     -2v            1kg           Cr200          accoustical spkr
-1       -1v             .5kg         Cr100          power interface
-1       -3v            1.5kg         Cr1000        program interface
-2       -4v            2kg           Cr5000        ECM
-2       -3v            3kg           Cr1200        voder
          -32.7v                                   waste space
-1        -21.7v        5.9kg         Cr82900     Brain, total
Brain details:
           -2.5v         .5kg         Cr50000      5 parallel cpu
           -4.2v         2.4kg        Cr12000     24 linear cpu
           -15v          3kg          Cr7500      30 std storage
                                      Cr10000    high data FLP
                                      Cr1000      basic command FCP
                                      Cr2400      Software, total
Software details:
                                      Cr1200      Civil engineering-2
                                      Cr600        ATV-2
                                      Cr200        Cargo handling-1
                                          Cr400        Commo-1

Design discussion:
I started this design for two reasons. First, I have a game called
Outpost that has robots assisting in the construction of a space
colony. In it we have "robodozers", "robodiggers", "robominers", 
"robotrucks", and so on. I wanted to have these guys IMTU. 
Secondly, I spend way to much time watching "Robot Wars".

The Civil engineering program is not cannon. The application
software available does not have anything other than the 
regular starship engineering program. I decided that the CE 
program was similar to Combat engineering skill, which would
fall into the Armor combat program.

The construction tool obviously isn't from Book8. The closest
tool items available in CT to T4's construction tool are in Striker.
These items, the crane and the dozer blade, don't list power
or volume requirements. So I decided to pull from T4. The 
construction tool from Central Supply Catalog is placed in a 
turret; I used the robot head in this case.

A big problem with Book8 is robot speed. Speed in Bk 8 is 
tied to dexterity. Apparently, having arms makes you go real
fast, but having wheels slows you down. In Bk8 terms, the bot
above has a Speed of 1, or about 6kph. My Ford Escort would
have a Speed of 2, or about 12kph [assuming wheels base dex
of 2 and intelligence dexterity mod +3 from me]. This was too
much nonsense for me. I went with MT Referee's Guide to
determine speed.

And now, I shall take this opportunity to taughnt the Chinese
Fork Lift [tm] with Dr Evil Jrs Constructor Bot...

Bwa-ha-ha-ha--> ad-infinitem.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Dr Evil Junior [!?], Arba Port Director, among other things...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 16:37:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:37:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16dpjP-0003OE-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202210820490.21287-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Anyway, back to the original OT question, being "Looksist" is 
> normal, but I've run into too many people that take it much to far.  
> I've met a number of men (and a few women) who quite honestly 
> will not look twice at someone as a potential romantic partner if 
> they don't look like a model.  I think such people have serious 
> issues and can easily see considering such looksism as being a 
> significant prejudice.

Bwahahahahah.  Then again, you actually said you found the SFBA poly types
comforting to have around.  You do realize how much solipsism,
narrowmindedness, and mental masturbation people who act like they've
spent their entire lives in encounter groups engage in, don't you?  No?
Well, come visit us for a while.  All that "I respect your space" cloaks
other sorts of nastiness.  As in, the SFBA poly-type ex-boyfriend who
thought it was not his and his other girlfriend's problem when I called to
tell him I was freaked out because my estranged mother might have been
dying, and I wanted him to come over and talk to me, without her, because
I just didn't know her real well... because that was my space, not theirs.
I dumped his ass.

Um, I know the kind of people you're talking about, but comparing it to
racism or sexism or ageism is SILLY.  

Their behavior does not hurt anyone but themselves, unless you're the sort
that thinks it's a gods-given right to sleep with the people you want.
Rejection is painful but it's not something that everyone doesn't have to
deal with, even the super-beautiful.  Average people are certainly used to
it.

Jobs and housing are things people need to survive.  Nookie with the
person of their choice is not.

You are not obligated to sleep with anyone you don't find attractive, or
think a relationship wouldn't work with.  If your standards are too silly,
the natural penalty that results is not getting laid/having a
relationship.

Let's be very clear.  There's a huge difference between personal neurosis
and actionable bigotry, and comparing the former to the latter takes the
sting out of the latter.  

It offends me DEEPLY when people try to tell me that I should accept their
standards on how I should choose people who may be permitted to touch me
intimately, live in my home, become part of my family, etc.  That's
nobody's business but mine.  It also amuses me deeply to hear that access
to my girly bits is being verbally compared to access to decent housing
and a good job.  That's very flattering, in a strange and sick sort of
way.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 17:21:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:21:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020221092119.B9737@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202210917300.21287-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:13:48AM -0500, Michael Houghton wrote:
> >
> > "attractive" and "ugly" are, while not quite orthogonal, measured on
> > axes that are far from coincident.  Personally, I have become much
> > more open to seeing 'not ugly' but 'not attractive'.
> 
> I'd agree with you.  There are many girls I don't find attractive, but
> who are not actively ugly.  Failing to be attractive is simply a
> matter of taste--e.g. I most definitely do not care for Julia
> Roberts--but ugliness is something more.  One might say that beauty is
> in the eye of the beholder, but ugliness is in the beheld.

I don't find most people sexually attractive (which may be why I am touchy
about the whole looksist thing-- I find most people fairly attractive
aesthetically, but very very few people get me hot) but my tastes are
definitely not those of the media.  I think Brad Pitt, for example, looks
like he needs to be dipped in Lysol and held under for a few minutes, and
that Leonardo di Caprio may be attractive if he ever grows up, which will
probably not happen in my lifetime.

Keith Hamilton Cobb, on the other hand, needs to be dipped in honey and
chained to my bed.  And I'll take the Vulcan, too, as much because of her
demeanor and attitude as because of her curves... I've actually grown to
LIKE that haircut.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 17:39:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:39:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020221090705.A9737@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014313182.2060.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:

> I would imagine that such technology would be horrible in the long
> run--much of what we consider unattractive is IIRC the result of
> genetic flaws.  Consider a world in which natural selection has been
> utterly stymied: medicine cures every ill; surgery corrects the
> evidence of flaws; technology makes even the stupid smart.  Now
> imagine that said society suddenly no longer has its crutches
> (e.g. the Long Night).  Frightening.

Would have to be _very_ long term (human evolution is essentially zero at the
moment).  Also has to assume that people don't decide that the easiest method
of fixing flaws is genetic alteration (which could result in some pretty
horrifying results, but not of the same type you're talking about).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 17:46:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:46:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <200202211233.g1LCXVZ20525@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1baff$aa2a24c0$0300000a@c263000a>

Alarmist, but a hoax none-the-less. Haven't seen this one in a while.
David Larson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 17:51:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:51:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <3430669832.20020221180154@greimann.de>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJIDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Gee, now we're not only getting commercial spam, we're also getting hoax
spam. What happened to filtering to prevent non-members from posting to the
list?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:11:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:11:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <20020221145648.15053.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020221145648.15053.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200202211311260030.A939E4BC@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Heh I get a kick out of the idea some think the foreground images are cut and paste photos. They are not, the artist is that good. You don't have over 500 novel covers, two Chelsey Awards, and work as dept head for Disney by doing cut and pastes...

Take a look at his other work
http://www.davidmattingly.com

Hunter

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/21/2002 at 6:56 AM Daniel Tackett wrote:

>The backdrop is beautiful. The foreground looks very
>awkward , or out of place next to it. If you could
>make a background that good, why don't you make a
>foreground of similar quality. I'm an artist myself,
>and I dislike art that is so blatanly computer
>generated.I think you should create heads/faces for
>these characters. If I'd submitted this painting to my
>teachers they would have downright embarassed me. I
>think your doing yourself a great injustice using
>those pasted photos. Especially in light of that
>wonderful backdrop.
>-Dan.
> 
>Be the change that you want to see in the world.
>-Gahndi.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
>http://sports.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:19:36 -0600
Subject: [TML] TML potpouri
Message-ID: <3C753A38.2A5E1860@mail.cswnet.com>

on Amusing Spam...
The only really amusing spam...from Monty Python:
"Vikings (singing): Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up! (Vikings stop) Bloody Vikings!"

on New TV Series...
Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
>Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.

Sydney Bristow can kick Buffy's butt.
Alias should be required viewing for Gurps:Espionage and Solsec/
IRIS types out there. Imagine SD-6 in the Solomani Rim...

on OT: ASL...
I've always taken the boards off of games like Squad Leader and 
used em for Traveller maps. There were lots of times my pc would
find himself on mapboard B from Arab-Israeli wars. Just figure
the appropriate scale and decide on the appropriate Traveller rule
set and Wa-La. As far as Trav wargameing, man, I'd love it if some
one could mix up Striker with Team Yankee...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Dr. Evil Jr [!?], Arba Port Director, Danro Tacan, etc.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <E16dkvP-0006o7-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211017070.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> 
> > > Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people
> > > looked like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very
> > > concerned, in touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.
> > >  *shiver*
> > 
> > Welcome to the Bay Area poly community.  Now you know why I left it in
> > the dust.
> 
> I'm very glad folks like that exist, they can definitely be good to 
> have around, gods know I'd prefer too much of that sort of fluffiness 
> to the sort of mean cynicism and general nastiness exhibited by 
> *way* too many people I've run into.  Sure, a few people like that 
> can be way too flaky to deal with, but they also tend to be far 
> kinder and more considerate than the norm. 

Nah.  Not these people.  They're kind and considerate if you share their
standards and talk and act like they do and don't have any nasty habits
like playing with guns or expecting other people to care about stuff
that's not in "their space" after they've had sex with you multiple times.

Dare to tell them what you REALLY think about loud, obnoxious peace
protests on your street the week after thousands of Americans were killed
in NYC and you'll find out how "nice" they are all right.  

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:17:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202211311260030.A939E4BC@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014315443.2225.ajackson@ping>

Hunter Gordon writes:
> Heh I get a kick out of the idea some think the foreground images are cut
> and paste photos. They are not, the artist is that good.

If they look like cut and paste, the artist _isn't_ that good (or made a
mistake).  Doesn't matter if they actually are cut and paste, the sudden
photorealistic heads are jarring next to the way the rest of the image is put
together.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:54:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:54:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Keep your eyes peeled...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221135349.00a7ae58@mail.charter.net>

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/21/olympics.aliens.reut/index.html



------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 18:48:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:48:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202210917300.21287-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020221184817.78620.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>

Don't we UGLY guys have enough trouble gettin some
without the female of the species going after Vulcan
females TOO?!! :P

!!!! 

--- Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:13:48AM -0500, Michael
> Houghton wrote:
> > >
> > > "attractive" and "ugly" are, while not quite
> orthogonal, measured on
> > > axes that are far from coincident.  Personally,
> I have become much
> > > more open to seeing 'not ugly' but 'not
> attractive'.
> > 
> > I'd agree with you.  There are many girls I don't
> find attractive, but
> > who are not actively ugly.  Failing to be
> attractive is simply a
> > matter of taste--e.g. I most definitely do not
> care for Julia
> > Roberts--but ugliness is something more.  One
> might say that beauty is
> > in the eye of the beholder, but ugliness is in the
> beheld.
> 
> I don't find most people sexually attractive (which
> may be why I am touchy
> about the whole looksist thing-- I find most people
> fairly attractive
> aesthetically, but very very few people get me hot)
> but my tastes are
> definitely not those of the media.  I think Brad
> Pitt, for example, looks
> like he needs to be dipped in Lysol and held under
> for a few minutes, and
> that Leonardo di Caprio may be attractive if he ever
> grows up, which will
> probably not happen in my lifetime.
> 
> Keith Hamilton Cobb, on the other hand, needs to be
> dipped in honey and
> chained to my bed.  And I'll take the Vulcan, too,
> as much because of her
> demeanor and attitude as because of her curves...
> I've actually grown to
> LIKE that haircut.
> 
> Kiri
> 
>
******************************************************************************
> Kiri Aradia Morgan                                 
> 93!  Thou Art God
> tiamat@tsoft.com
> 
> "If time passes, everything turns into beauty
> If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory
> away
> Everything starts wearing fresh colors
> Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
> Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
> Desire is embraced in a dream..."              --
> X-JAPAN
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 19:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:02:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211017070.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020221190232.2876.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

The only way to deal with people like this is not to
deal with people like this.

They're hypocrites in most cases. 
I wonder how peaceful they'd be if someone punch them
full in face. And as for the gun issue, what do they
think the police use to enforce the law, 
HARSH LANGUAGE???

Kiri, 
the definition for folks like this is called ......
 Outta Touch With Reality!


--- Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> > 
> > > > Several weeks ago I went to a poly event,
> where most of the people
> > > > looked like they had entirely missed the last
> twenty years.  very
> > > > concerned, in touch with their feelings,
> I-respect-your-space types.
> > > >  *shiver*
> > > 
> > > Welcome to the Bay Area poly community.  Now you
> know why I left it in
> > > the dust.
> > 
> > I'm very glad folks like that exist, they can
> definitely be good to 
> > have around, gods know I'd prefer too much of that
> sort of fluffiness 
> > to the sort of mean cynicism and general nastiness
> exhibited by 
> > *way* too many people I've run into.  Sure, a few
> people like that 
> > can be way too flaky to deal with, but they also
> tend to be far 
> > kinder and more considerate than the norm. 
> 
> Nah.  Not these people.  They're kind and
> considerate if you share their
> standards and talk and act like they do and don't
> have any nasty habits
> like playing with guns or expecting other people to
> care about stuff
> that's not in "their space" after they've had sex
> with you multiple times.
> 
> Dare to tell them what you REALLY think about loud,
> obnoxious peace
> protests on your street the week after thousands of
> Americans were killed
> in NYC and you'll find out how "nice" they are all
> right.  
> 
> Kiri
> 
>
******************************************************************************
> Kiri Aradia Morgan                                 
> 93!  Thou Art God
> tiamat@tsoft.com
> 
> "If time passes, everything turns into beauty
> If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory
> away
> Everything starts wearing fresh colors
> Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
> Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
> Desire is embraced in a dream..."              --
> X-JAPAN
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 19:36:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:36:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Rather More than Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020221184817.78620.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211129120.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Gonzalez wrote:

> Don't we UGLY guys have enough trouble gettin some
> without the female of the species going after Vulcan
> females TOO?!! :P
> 
> !!!! 
> 
It's not like any one of us could ever get her.  Besides, I'm sure she of
all people would be more interested in "intellectual compatibility".  The
trailers for next week showed her naked in bed with another Vulcan.  I'm
definitely taping this at SP.  I was hoping really hard that the reason
she didn't want to get married was that she was secretly a lesbian, but
hey.  I'll take what I can get!

Ah well, call me what you like... Interestingly enough, of all the Vulcans
on Star Trek, the only two I have ever wanted to do are T'Pol (Enterprise,
as per above) and Sarek (who is married, and old enough to be my great
grandfather, but for some reason made me think, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.)

Now the Nietszcheans on Andromeda are usually sexy, but one would expect
that of a bunch of ubermenschen (did I do that right?  prolly not),
wouldn't one?  Not only do I think Tyr is adorable, isn't there one who is
a black woman in not too much gold clothing whose name is something like
Elspeth?  Nice (well, OK, maybe not in terms of personality...)
Charlemagne is a pretty thing (and I usually don't go for blonds) but he
seems a little neurotic and too driven to be GIB, plus I wouldn't trust
him with my clothes and weapons ON...

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 19:32:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:32:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Games in Education
In-Reply-To: <200202211820.g1LIKmj16318@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020221193247.79815.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

In 8th grade my history class did a really neat basic war game of the European division of Africa.
 

We had several overall teams (German, French, British).  Each team had a group that represented
diplomats and the other the military.  Each area and city on the map had points values attached to
them that differred for each nation.  We moved around counters that represented basic military
units (along the level of detail of risk) and could also trade areas diplomatically.

The each turn was timed and then the teacher would judge the conflicts.  We played about 5-6 turns
until the continent was parcelled out.  Quite fun.

The real kicker was when the teacher debriefed us and asked if anyone had thought about the
desires of the people whose lands we were gobbling up!  Quite a mind bending question for a bunch
of 14 year olds!

Matt


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 19:52:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:52:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202211820.g1LIKmj16318@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16dzGE-0005z5-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:42:26AM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > > That's one of the things that I think will be striking about TL 10
> or > 11+ societies.  Between being able to do both *minor* genetic >
> engineering and near-perfect plastic surgery, there won't be any >
> ugly people, any deformed people, or anyone else who falls >
> physically outside the acceptable range.  I imagine someone from > a
> TL 6 world who has scars and similar problems will be either >
> considered fascinating or horrific.   
> 
> I would imagine that such technology would be horrible in the long
> run--much of what we consider unattractive is IIRC the result of
> genetic flaws.  Consider a world in which natural selection has been
> utterly stymied: medicine cures every ill; surgery corrects the
> evidence of flaws; technology makes even the stupid smart.  Now
> imagine that said society suddenly no longer has its crutches (e.g.
> the Long Night).  Frightening.

Not at all.  

There are two problems with your idea:

1) Natural evolution takes 10s or hundreds of thousands or years, 
unless the culture has been civilized for a seriously long time (ie 
notably longer than the Vilani) this won't be a problem.  In our world 
the stupid and the ugly still breed, the difference is that these folks 
wouldn't have any stupid or ugly people.

2) I mentioned minor genetic engineering: while designing 
organisms to spec makes sense at TL 14, fixing various problems 
would be a far lower TL (expect us to be doing this in less than 20 
years).  This would be a world w/o any of the common genetic 
defects, including things like genetic susceptibility to cancer.  

If the Long Night came, these folks would survive *far* better than 
any group relying on something as outmoded and dinosaurianly 
slow as mere natural evolution.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
     

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:02:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:02:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <200202211820.g1LIKmj16318@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16dzPc-0001Qn-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:

> Dare to tell them what you REALLY think about loud, obnoxious peace
> protests on your street the week after thousands of Americans were
> killed in NYC and you'll find out how "nice" they are all right.  

Given that I marched in several peace protests in Portland shortly 
after 9/11, I somehow doubt I'd have had a similar problem.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:16:02 +0000
Subject: [TML] information, please:  Bowman System
Message-ID: <F2115SJAlvh4VGXTnKP00003c69@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would any kind soul with easy access to the "Beltstrike"(?) boxed 
module detailing the Bowman system please answer the following questions?

(A)  What is the population of Koenig's Rock?

(B)  When was the habitat in Koenig's Rock constructed?

(C)  How many levels does said habitat consist of?

     and finally...

(D)  On what level is Talchek's office located?


     My most profuse thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:30:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:30:47 -0700
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16dzGE-0005z5-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:52:56AM -0800
References: <200202211820.g1LIKmj16318@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16dzGE-0005z5-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020221133047.A10345@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:52:56AM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> 1) Natural evolution takes 10s or hundreds of thousands or years, 
> unless the culture has been civilized for a seriously long time (ie 
> notably longer than the Vilani) this won't be a problem.  In our world 
> the stupid and the ugly still breed, the difference is that these folks 
> wouldn't have any stupid or ugly people.

No--they'd have the stupid and ugly, but not know who they were.
Eventually great hordes of the population would be stupid and ugly.
So long as the technology to cure said afflictions exists, the effects
would be muted.  But take away the technical solution and you've a
society which will quickly turn quite nasty.

Not to mention how the population might devolve, absent selection
pressures towards intelligence and attractiveness.  It might get so
bad that _no-one_ is well-formed, and that, upon removal of the
technical cure, the entire next generation would be congenital idiots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:29:44 +0000
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
Message-ID: <F267rQQB2IAGjCl7Mx5000039ef@hotmail.com>

From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>

     "Subject: Fw: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!"


Mr. Scarlett,

     This is a hoax, sir, nothing but a hoax.
     The designation of the puported bill, P602 IIRC, is a dead give-away.  
Surf over to any federal legislative dot-gov sites and peruse the actual 
alphanumeric designators given to bills.  They always have either "HR" or 
"S" as a prefix depending in which house originated them.  They also have 
numerical designator for the specific fiscal year in which they were 
introduced.
     Although the e-mail you forwarded doesn't specifically ask for monetary 
donations, I wouldn't be surprised if some smart fellow isn't raking in a 
nice chunk of revenue in the form of $5 and $10 donations.
     Makes me wish I'd thought of it first... (sigh)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:33:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:33:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202211233070.29184-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:22:43 -0500
From: William Lane <wlane@aessuccess.org>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!








<snip> Rumours like this are just plain illogical. </snip>

to coin a Phrase who ever said the human race was logical?

Hasta

Bill Lane







From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:28:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:28:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  Lois Bujold Mailing List <lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>

Yet another very silly personality test.

What D&D character are you?

http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
mage, but... lawful neutral?

Kiri  ^_^


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:31:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:31:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Less Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

>One might say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but ugliness is in
the beheld.

"Beauty is only skin deep, but ugliness goes right to the bone."

I don't know who said that first -- I suspect it dates back at least to
Sumerian times -- but Mickey Spillane said it again in one of his
hard-boiled pulp novels (maybe The Last Cop Out, but I'm not sure).

Ob Traveller:

"I can't believe you went out with him!  I mean, the smell, the hair --
those teeth!  They all just look so strange to me.  What was it like?"

"Well, it was great!  He was a perfect gentleman, assertive, gentle,
wonderful in every way.  Except it took me a while to get used to him not
having a tail to brush me with."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:38:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:38:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16dzGE-0005z5-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211230500.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> There are two problems with your idea:
> 
> 1) Natural evolution takes 10s or hundreds of thousands or years, 
> unless the culture has been civilized for a seriously long time (ie 
> notably longer than the Vilani) this won't be a problem.  In our world 
> the stupid and the ugly still breed, the difference is that these folks 
> wouldn't have any stupid or ugly people.
> 
> 2) I mentioned minor genetic engineering: while designing 
> organisms to spec makes sense at TL 14, fixing various problems 
> would be a far lower TL (expect us to be doing this in less than 20 
> years).  This would be a world w/o any of the common genetic 
> defects, including things like genetic susceptibility to cancer.  
> 
> If the Long Night came, these folks would survive *far* better than 
> any group relying on something as outmoded and dinosaurianly 
> slow as mere natural evolution.  

Agreed.  The only reason the heavily gengineered folks in my universe
would have trouble is that they have been using cyberwomb technology so
long that some of the women (actually most of them) couldn't give birth
naturally if they HAD to.  That, and that they have a problem... there's
something that went wrong that they haven't figured out how to fix yet. 

(This is only one of the peoples in my universe though.)

I think that Robert was thinking about a world where plastic surgery had
been used to cover up genetic flaws, which might indeed be scary.

I have similar qualms about all those people who say it's horribly cruel
not to allow the genetically mentally retarded to breed.

But if the genetic mental and physical handicaps are corrected at the
genome level, the corrections will breed true.

What's more likely to be a problem is when we try to get rid of things
that we don't fully understand the large-scale functionality of, such as
the actual function of homosexuality and bisexuality in terms of the way
the species works (they don't actually work against the survival of the
species as a whole, nor even specific gene lines... just the gene lines of
specific individuals) or the sickle cell gene (which serves a protective
function in the area of the world where it evolved) or cyclothymic/bipolar
mood disorders and the autism spectrum syndromes such as Asperger's and
ADD/ADHD (very, VERY common among creative artists and scientists).

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:44:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:44:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <E16dzPc-0001Qn-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211239501.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dare to tell them what you REALLY think about loud, obnoxious peace
> > protests on your street the week after thousands of Americans were
> > killed in NYC and you'll find out how "nice" they are all right.  
> 
> Given that I marched in several peace protests in Portland shortly 
> after 9/11, I somehow doubt I'd have had a similar problem.

Did you manage to sound like a frakkin' invasion in a residential part of
the city, MILES from the courthouse or city hall, to the point where you
could wake someone up who was asleep with a goddamn migraine and doped to
the gills?  And did most of your comrades not even live in town?  The
following week, I noted as I vainly attempted to use BART that most of
them lived in the People's Republic of Berkeley, which has done everything
but attempt to secede since 9/11.

If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I really wondered what
they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley BART station.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail(Hoax) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202211230050.29184-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:41 -0500
From: William Lane <wlane@aessuccess.org>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail(Hoax)


this is a hoax. don't believe it.

http://www.netsquirrel.com/combatkit/postage.html

Hasta



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 20:57:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:57:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211239501.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <E16dzPc-0001Qn-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221155608.00abdab0@urbin.net>

At 12:44 PM 2/21/2002 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
[snip]
>If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I really wondered what
>they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley BART station.

That we should be riding bikes anyway?
That we need to understand what the BART folks did to make that stations 
offensive to the bombers?


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 21:16:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:16:48 -0700
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211230500.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:38:59PM -0800
References: <E16dzGE-0005z5-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211230500.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020221141648.A10455@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:38:59PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> I think that Robert was thinking about a world where plastic surgery had
> been used to cover up genetic flaws, which might indeed be scary.

Sorry I wasn't clear--that's exactly what I meant.  A world where
plastic surgery cures physical flaws (incl. those caused by genetics)
and `mental surgery' cures mental flaws.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits
is, of course, in a state of sin.                 --John Von Neumann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 21:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:32:09 +0000
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
Message-ID: <F267GNuVZWGqjovoP6e00003b33@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>

     "Which brings up a good point. Anyone have any ideas on how I can get 
rid of some of my excess Traveller stuff?  I'd rather not go through the 
hassle of eBay if I can avoid it - I'm more interested in trading..."

     "Anyplace on the net for that?"


Mr. Taylor,

     IIRC, there's a trading page at www.downport.com that might fit your 
needs.
     BTW, you wouldn't have World Tamer's Handbook, would you?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 21:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:06:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
Message-ID: <200202211606_MC3-F2EB-B7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
> FWIW, I was hugely disappointed in the Atlas when I got it. I'd trade it
> for Digests easily!
Nah!   I'd only have wanted it for archival purposes. The one I really
wanted, I got...<

Which brings up a good point. Anyone have any ideas on how I can get rid of
some of my excess Traveller stuff? 

I'd rather not go through the hassle of eBay if I can avoid it - I'm more
interested in trading...

Anyplace on the net for that?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 21:44:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:44:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221155608.00abdab0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <MailDrop1.2d7k.1020221144459@[128.196.116.6]>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:57:25 -0500 urbin@bigfoot.com (Mark Urbin) wrote:

>At 12:44 PM 2/21/2002 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>[snip]
>>If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I really wondered what
>>they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley BART station.
>
>That we should be riding bikes anyway?
>That we need to understand what the BART folks did to make that stations
>offensive to the bombers?

That we should atone for our patriarchalist/colonial imperialist ways towards
them, and respect their space.

Unless they won't sleep with us, in which case we'll call them nasty names ;-P


(Because we should all be riding bikes, anyway ;->)

Bruce


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 21:49:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:49:27 +1100
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020222084927.A24968@freeman.little-possums.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
> anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
> mage, but... lawful neutral?

I got the opposite problem.  Alignment NG, fine.  I might even stretch
my imagination to myself as a Halfling.  But Bard/Ranger?  I'm an
asocial and very unmusical stay-at-home geek who has been known on
occasion to actively take steps to avoid wilderness trips and any
social gathering of more than 5 people!

Hmm.  On reflection, maybe the Halfling thing isn't too much of a
stretch.  Nearly half my long-term D&D or D&D-like characters have
been halflings or something similar.  Just not something I'd
considered as reflecting *myself*.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 22:14:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:14:01 -0600
Subject: Selling Old Trav Materials (was: Re: [TML] Collector's Hell)
References: <200202211606_MC3-F2EB-B7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C757129.E50B73E4@premier.net>



Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > FWIW, I was hugely disappointed in the Atlas when I got it. I'd trade it
> > for Digests easily!
> Nah!   I'd only have wanted it for archival purposes. The one I really
> wanted, I got...<
> 
> Which brings up a good point. Anyone have any ideas on how I can get rid of
> some of my excess Traveller stuff?
> 
> I'd rather not go through the hassle of eBay if I can avoid it - I'm more
> interested in trading...

Well, if you're a JTAS subscriber, there's a Trading Post board on the
discussion boards.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 22:33:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <memo.51869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020222084927.A24968@freeman.little-possums.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

I got true neutral elf bard-ranger. Seems awfully fond of bard/rangers!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 22:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:39:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <memo.51869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014331156.1183.ajackson@ping>

I got neutral good elf-ranger, despite having stated that my preferred
environment was a city, and my least favorite would be alone in the middle of
nowhere ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:00:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:00:20 +1100
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1bb2b$89a711a0$9307b286@Shane>

Kiri remarked:
> I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
> anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
> mage, but... lawful neutral?

I can see that.  Just based on what I've read of your posts (yes, I know I
don't 'really' know you) you come across as someone who has consolidated a
firm set of opinions.  Someone who shows strong resistance to alterations of
their world-view is Lawful(tm) in my books.  I believe you fall into that
category.  As a Planescape player, I understand 'alignment' as a description
of philosophical leanings, rather than a description of your relationship to
society at large.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Neutral Good?!  But.. but I'm a badass mofo!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:06:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <MailDrop1.2d7k.1020221144459@[128.196.116.6]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211506190.21385-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:57:25 -0500 urbin@bigfoot.com (Mark Urbin) wrote:
> 
> >At 12:44 PM 2/21/2002 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I really wondered what
> >>they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley BART station.
> >
> >That we should be riding bikes anyway?
> >That we need to understand what the BART folks did to make that stations
> >offensive to the bombers?
> 
> That we should atone for our patriarchalist/colonial imperialist ways towards
> them, and respect their space.
> 
> Unless they won't sleep with us, in which case we'll call them nasty names ;-P
> 
> 
> (Because we should all be riding bikes, anyway ;->)
> 
You, suh, owe the UCSF Med Center a keyboard... and an optical trackball,
too!

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:04:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:04:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221155608.00abdab0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211503260.21385-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> At 12:44 PM 2/21/2002 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> [snip]
> >If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I really wondered what
> >they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley BART station.
> 
> That we should be riding bikes anyway?

Knowing this area as I do, you're probably right.  Sigh.

> That we need to understand what the BART folks did to make that stations 
> offensive to the bombers?

LOL.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:26:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:26:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <20020221.182749.-102261.3.Knightsky@juno.com>


> Yet another very silly personality test.
> 
> What D&D character are you?

NG 1/2 elf Thief/Bard


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."



________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:32:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOGECECEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

>> What D&D character are you?

Neutral Evil Elf Mage Thief:

I for one feel that this is the most accurate Personality Test I have ever
taken...  Though the evil part is a bit iffy, I feel that you can get what
you want without being evil =) well, maybe =)

It is a character I would like to play in D&D though...

Geoff McDonald
--------------
"I am one with my duality"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:39:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:39:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Keep your eyes peeled...
Message-ID: <20020221.183928.-102261.4.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:54:15 -0500 Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/21/olympics.aliens.reut/index.html

Let's just hope that the aliens don't have the Olympic Rings logo on the
outside of their spacecraft... that could get them in trouble with the
IOC.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:50:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:50:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:52:56AM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > > 1) Natural evolution takes 10s or hundreds of thousands or years,
> > unless the culture has been civilized for a seriously long time (ie
> > notably longer than the Vilani) this won't be a problem.  In our
> world > the stupid and the ugly still breed, the difference is that
> these folks > wouldn't have any stupid or ugly people.
> 
> No--they'd have the stupid and ugly, but not know who they were.
> Eventually great hordes of the population would be stupid and ugly. So
> long as the technology to cure said afflictions exists, the effects
> would be muted.  But take away the technical solution and you've a
> society which will quickly turn quite nasty.
> 
> Not to mention how the population might devolve, absent selection
> pressures towards intelligence and attractiveness.  It might get so
> bad that _no-one_ is well-formed, and that, upon removal of the
> technical cure, the entire next generation would be congenital idiots.

Not unless the entire population started off as congenital idiots long 
before civilization evolved.  Evolution simply *can't* happen that 
fast.  Also, minor genetic engineering is the easiest way to prevent 
most such problems.  The people on such a world won't just have 
such problems fixed, in most cases no one will *ever* have such 
problems again.  This is likely to start happening in the First World 
here within 20 years.  The advantage of various forms of genefixing 
is that it is forever.     

Btw, did the 2nd half of the post you responded to not arrive, I 
mentioned genetic engineering there also.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
 Ardent transhumanist



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 00:26:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:26:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211625130.21385-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>  Ardent transhumanist 

Me too.  You are an interesting sort; I either disagree or agree with you
strongly.  I want to live forever, be beautiful (well, more so <g>) and
know a lot more things than I'll have time to learn in 70-100 years!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 00:31:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:31:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova
Message-ID: <16f.93715e3.29a6eb75@aol.com>

Unless there are any objections i would liek to claim Terra Nova.

0511   Terra Nova    Querion\Spinward Marches

I have actually been working on this for a while from a pile of hand written 
notes from ages past.  I would welcome any comments you can offer.  I think 
theres too much info to post here so i tossed it all together in to a website 
form. here's the link.

http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/landgrab1.html


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Thyme)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:59:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJIDLAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <007b01c1bb39$1ce6c3e0$fe13530c@default>

Perhaps we should all overdrive our processors so we could have roasted
spam?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!


> Gee, now we're not only getting commercial spam, we're also getting hoax
> spam. What happened to filtering to prevent non-members from posting to
the
> list?
>
>
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
>
>
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 21 23:56:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Thyme)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:56:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
References: <20020221.081205.-260817.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <007a01c1bb39$0c7049a0$fe13530c@default>

Do you think R. Martin and T. Glenn bailed (unsubscribed) because of this?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <knightsky@juno.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!


> 
> 
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:51:46 -0600 "John Scarlett"
> <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:
> > 
> >   Subject: FW: FYI - US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!!
> > 
> >   Federal Bill 602P: 5-cents per E-mail sent! 
> 
> Do people still fall for this?  This is one of the oldest internet hoaxes
> out there, along with the 'kidney thieves' and 'needels at the gas pumps'
> tripe.
> 
> http://www.scambusters.org/otherhoaxes14.html#Postage
>  
> >   Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested 
> > a "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and 
> > beyond the governments' proposed 602P E-mail charges.  Note that 
> > most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only 
> > exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail 
> > surcharge "a useful concept whose time has come."  (March 6th, 1999 
> > Editorial). Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! 
> 
> Note that 'Congressman Schnell' doesn't actually exist.
> 
> 
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 00:40:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:40:38 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: information, please: Bowman System
Message-ID: <3C759386.FB52DDD4@mail.cswnet.com>

>Would any kind soul with easy access to the "Beltstrike"(?) boxed 
>module detailing the Bowman system please answer the following >questions?

>(A)  What is the population of Koenig's Rock?
      800
>(B)  When was the habitat in Koenig's Rock constructed?
      629, as a headquarters for Imperial Admiral Koenig
>(C)  How many levels does said habitat consist of?
      About 4; the second level is sortof split into two 
      different sections.
>(D)  On what level is Talchek's office located?
      I don't know any Talchek. I do know the Tolkatch's 
      office. Its located at building 501, Leland section.
      A'course, He ain't there right now. For a nominal fee
      of CR100, I can tell you where he IS at.

Danro Tacan, alias
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 00:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:39:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <200202211233.g1LCXVZ20525@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202211233.g1LCXVZ20525@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <vm4b7uktghj664kurq68tbebm5jpg9cbrd@4ax.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:33:31 -0800 (PST), "John Scarlett"
<jlscarlett@earthlink.net> wrote:

>  Please read, follow up and pass on to your E-Mail correspondents.

No, Don't!  This is an urban legend that simply will not die.
http://www.snopes.com, and search.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 01:32:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:32:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] A polite request (was Re: Covers & Spam)
In-Reply-To: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020222013443.NLZV319.dorsey@link>

Can we please refrain from using the TML as a place to tell each other who
has the right politics and who has the wrong politics?  Let's remember the
purpose of this discussion forum, I beg us all.  As much as I personally
would like to weigh in with my own opinions about Stepford Liberals (great
coinage, btw), peace protests in Portland, how loud is too loud for a
political protest, and such matters, and whether the people who disagree
with me have any right to use bandwidth, they are very off topic from the
purpose of this list.

I confess to being guilty of going way off topic in the past as much as
anyone, but political disagreements seem to be too inflammatory to be a
good idea.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree.  Just as we all agree to love our
Grand Old Game each in our own personal way.

Thanks for listening.  :->

--Laning
Everybody needs to believe in something.
I believe I'll have more coffee.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 02:18:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Slater)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:18:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] A polite request (was Re: Covers & Spam)
References: <20020222013443.NLZV319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C75AA70.7050309@bellsouth.net>

Indeed, this reminds me of a saying that mentions something to the 
effect of never discussing politics, sex or religion in polite company. 
  Politeness can go out the window _real_ quick if feelings or beliefs 
on any one of those are challenged!

Just joined the list BTW! <wave>

Been away from the game for about 15 years, so...back to catching up for 
now!

Dave

Laning wrote:
> Can we please refrain from using the TML as a place to tell each other who
> has the right politics and who has the wrong politics?  Let's remember the
> purpose of this discussion forum, I beg us all.  As much as I personally
> would like to weigh in with my own opinions about Stepford Liberals (great
> coinage, btw), peace protests in Portland, how loud is too loud for a
> political protest, and such matters, and whether the people who disagree
> with me have any right to use bandwidth, they are very off topic from the
> purpose of this list.
> 
> I confess to being guilty of going way off topic in the past as much as
> anyone, but political disagreements seem to be too inflammatory to be a
> good idea.
> 
> Perhaps we should agree to disagree.  Just as we all agree to love our
> Grand Old Game each in our own personal way.
> 
> Thanks for listening.  :->


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 02:21:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:21:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #177
In-Reply-To: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020221181440.00a44770@mailhost.efn.org>

Kiri wrote:

>Keith Hamilton Cobb, on the other hand, needs to be dipped in honey and 
>chained to my bed.  And I'll take the Vulcan, too, as much because of her 
>demeanor and attitude as because of her curves... I've actually grown to 
>LIKE that haircut.

I can't stand the haircut OR the obviously artificial and exaggerated 
curves.  I'll agree that Mr. Cobb is quite an impressive specimen, however. :)

Now, for attitude:  given these data points, it appears that you are drawn 
to  self-confidence bordering on arrogance, diffidence, and a certain 
amount of ruthless pragmatism (with the physical prowess to back all of the 
above up)... tempered only by the bare minimum of "niceness" required by 
the social mores and conventions of those around them.  Confirm, deny, 
amend or clarify?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 03:02:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:02:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020221141648.A10455@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211230500.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:38:59PM -0800
Message-ID: <3C756E7A.22345.29A833@localhost>



On 21 Feb 2002 at 14:16, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> and `mental surgery' cures mental flaws.

Like Greg Bear's "Therapy" in "Queen of Angels" et al.  Most of 
the population has 'therapy' to 'help people not have mental 
problems', only the outriders of society avoid therapy.


Rob

--
Rob Davenport -- 'Hard work has a future payoff.  Laziness pays 
off now.'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 02:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:58:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT :Re: US Post Ofc to chrg. 5 cents/e-mail!!
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJIDLAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3430669832.20020221180154@greimann.de>
Message-ID: <3C756D7C.5171.25C90C@localhost>

For the record, the filtering is still in place and
working, just ask Bill Lane. (You've probably seen his
posts I forwarded to the list today as his address had
changed and the new one wasn't subscribed. Fixed now.)

The original poster of this thread is a member.

Rob 
TML Listmom2


On 21 Feb 2002 at 12:51, Terry Carlino wrote:

> Gee, now we're not only getting commercial spam, we're also getting hoax
> spam. What happened to filtering to prevent non-members from posting to the
> list?
> 
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
> 
> 
> 
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net

'Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 02:40:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:40:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211625130.21385-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221183950.009eaec0@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 2/21/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Me too.  You are an interesting sort; I either disagree or agree with you
>strongly.  I want to live forever, be beautiful (well, more so <g>) and
>know a lot more things than I'll have time to learn in 70-100 years!

Like baseball? <g,d,r>


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 03:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:17:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] A polite request (was Re: Covers & Spam)
Message-ID: <20020221.221731.-142093.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


> Just joined the list BTW! <wave>
> 
> Been away from the game for about 15 years, so...back to catching up 
> for now!
> 
> Dave

Welcome back!  Don't be put off by the occasional spark of fireworks, the
TML is for the most part very friendly and relatively well-behaved.  Just
don't bring up Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes, Near-C Rocks, or
"Ethically Challenged Merchants" (i.e. rhymes with 'sky-rats'), and all
should be well.  ;-)

Oh, and expect your Newbie Essay any time now...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 03:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1bb53$29ebbf40$6401a8c0@goca>

I am a :  Chaotic Good Half-Elf Ranger Fighter

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Kiri Aradia Morgan
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:29
To: nadeshiko999@ivillage.com
Subject: [TML] Silliness

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  Lois Bujold Mailing List <lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>

Yet another very silly personality test.

What D&D character are you?

http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
mage, but... lawful neutral?

Kiri  ^_^




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 03:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:38:32 +1100
Subject: [TML] Darrian history
Message-ID: <OFD8431C1A.98078944-ONCA256B68.0013B2D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West asked:
>While
>I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
>Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.

For the dot-maps, look on my site under Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Spinward Marches Timeline Maps. Choose the historical maps for detail, and the animated map for fun!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 04:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:01:29 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
Message-ID: <OFC76D2D64.96F240A5-ONCA256B68.0015F762@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I'm a Lawful Good Elf Bard Ranger.

That's pretty close - one of my retired characters is a Neutral Good Human 
Ranger (14th level).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 03:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:51:48 -0700
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:50:10PM -0800
References: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020221205147.A11633@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:50:10PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Not unless the entire population started off as congenital idiots long 
> before civilization evolved.  Evolution simply *can't* happen that 
> fast.

I don't think that it's evolution so much as watering down of the gene
pool.  After all, there are quite a large number of slight idiots
running around right now, each suffering from one or more of several
different afflictions.  Now, they tend to mostly mate with one another
or not at all.

If, instead, they had as much chance of mating with the general public
as anyone else, I imagine that within a few generations everyone would
posesss many genetic flaws.  The teaspoon of sewage in the barrel of
wine, if you will.

Not that I consider the genetically poor sewage; it's just a metaphor.
I myself often wonder if it would be proper for me to reproduce: I've
extremely bad eyes; I'm going bald at an early age; severe
eccentricity runs in my family; I've never been in terribly good
shape.  From present trends it seems that I needn't make the
decision:-(

> Also, minor genetic engineering is the easiest way to prevent 
> most such problems.

I'm not certain that such is possible--at least, I don't particularly
care for sci-fi which presupposes it.

> Btw, did the 2nd half of the post you responded to not arrive, I 
> mentioned genetic engineering there also.

I just ignored that part--I'm imaging a future without genetic
engineering.  Gattaca was a great flick, but I'd hate to live there.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 04:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:59:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1bb5d$b1b8b770$2f7de40c@loki>

Just as Megan, I am a --> True Neutral Elf Bard Ranger


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 05:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:05:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <000001c1bb53$29ebbf40$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <B89B1187.27CC9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/21/02 7:43 PM, J-Man at j-man@attbi.com wrote:

I'm taking this thing again.  First result

Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric


> I am a :  Chaotic Good Half-Elf Ranger Fighter
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> J-Man
> ICQ# 2843475
> Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
> Email : j-man@attbi.com
> Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Kiri Aradia Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:29
> To: nadeshiko999@ivillage.com
> Subject: [TML] Silliness
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:  Lois Bujold Mailing List <lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
> 
> Yet another very silly personality test.
> 
> What D&D character are you?
> 
> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
> anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
> mage, but... lawful neutral?
> 
> Kiri  ^_^
> 
> 
> 
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:34:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <B89B1187.27CC9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B89B184A.1330%mole@solsec.org>

on 2/21/02 9:05 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> 
> I'm taking this thing again.  First result
> 
> Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric

This really doesn't surprise any of your gaming group.

Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 06:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:32:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <B89B1187.27CC9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <200202220631.g1M6Vme29548@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/21/02 at 09:05 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 2/21/02 7:43 PM, J-Man at j-man@attbi.com wrote:

>I'm taking this thing again.  First result

>Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric

Neutral Good Dwarf Bard Thief

You know, I think this darn thing is just randomly picking things. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 06:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Grant)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 01:19:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: T'pol
In-Reply-To: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202212307.g1LN70Y15411@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <a05100300b89b914e2f94@[154.5.184.235]>

>  > And I'll take the Vulcan, too,
>  > as much because of her
>>  demeanor and attitude as because of her curves...
>>  I've actually grown to
>>  LIKE that haircut.
>  >
>>  Kiri

Can you imagine what it would be like to try to sleep with T'pol?

"Respectfully, Captain, I do not think your current action is 
well-advised... I can't recommend that course, either, sir... 
Captain, that technique is in violation of several Star Fleet 
regulations... Sorry, Captain, your species is simply not evolved 
enough to attempt that position..."

Et-freakin'-cetera...

Best,
   +GMG+
...just can't force myself to endure any more of that show...
-- 
    ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------ 
                          <neo@total.net>
     "Sex times Technology equals The Future." -- J.G. Ballard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 06:07:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221183950.009eaec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202212207170.12824-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 04:26 PM 2/21/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Me too.  You are an interesting sort; I either disagree or agree with you
> >strongly.  I want to live forever, be beautiful (well, more so <g>) and
> >know a lot more things than I'll have time to learn in 70-100 years!
> 
> Like baseball? <g,d,r>
> 
Oh, maybe after it's evolved into a *real* sport.  <g,d,r>

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 06:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:07:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] scaring Kiri (OT:)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020221181440.00a44770@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202212152360.12824-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> Kiri wrote:
> 
> >Keith Hamilton Cobb, on the other hand, needs to be dipped in honey and 
> >chained to my bed.  And I'll take the Vulcan, too, as much because of her 
> >demeanor and attitude as because of her curves... I've actually grown to 
> >LIKE that haircut.
> 
> I can't stand the haircut OR the obviously artificial and exaggerated 
> curves.  I'll agree that Mr. Cobb is quite an impressive specimen, however. :)
> 
> Now, for attitude:  given these data points, it appears that you are drawn 
> to self-confidence bordering on arrogance, diffidence, and a certain 
> amount of ruthless pragmatism (with the physical prowess to back all of the 
> above up)... tempered only by the bare minimum of "niceness" required by 
> the social mores and conventions of those around them.  Confirm, deny, 
> amend or clarify?

...eek... I am SO nailed...  ::gulps::  

But you forgot one thing.  After you get to know Tyr, and T'Pol, and other
such characters, you realize that they are actually very decent and honest
folks who simply do not pretend to conventional sentiments they do not
feel, and do not tell you that you can depend on them unless it's true.

(This probably reveals oodles of stuff about my upbringing. Oh well.
Thank you for the moment of self-revelation, Kelly.  I truly mean it.  I
owe you one.)  I don't care for genuine a$$hole$, but every person I have
truly and deeply been in love with could have played one on TV.  

The physical prowess hasn't always been there, but then, neither I nor
anyone I have dated has looked like a cast member of a major TV show.  
Except Tashiro.  And *he* looked like an anime hero, which meant that I
could get my thumb and forefinger around his wrist with room to spare.

Actually, I don't trust people who try very hard to be "nice".  I always
wonder what the hell they are hiding, and if their "niceness" allows them
to get walked all over, I find myself losing respect for them (and
becoming sickly and sadly aware that should I ever be in a position that
requires my mate to protect me, as I would protect them if they needed me
to, they won't be able and/or willing to do it).

People who are ACTUALLY kind, trustworthy, honest, and basically good, but
don't always put up a pretty front, are worth their weight in diamonds to
me... but "nice" reminds me of my mother, who put on the best show in town
and was a vicious, nasty, petty, backbiting gossip and drunk in private.

That is why I have always said that I try to be kind and I try to be good
and I am as honest as I know how to be, but I am for sure not "nice".  I
used to wear a button in my teens that said "Good Girls Go To Heaven.  Bad
Girls Go Everywhere."  I still have it.

I think I like this kind of person because I *am* this kind of person.
EEK...

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 11:38:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:38:24 +1300
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova
In-Reply-To: <16f.93715e3.29a6eb75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECLHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :

> Unless there are any objections i would liek to claim
> Terra Nova.
>
> 0511   Terra Nova    Querion\Spinward Marches

Hasn't this world been super-detailed already by Dream Pod 9 in
their Heavy Gear series ?

<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 11:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:38:22 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221071754.009ed9b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECLHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 08:47 PM 2/21/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >Not to mention some great speech patterns for use with Bwapps.
>
> The jaw hanging open for laughter, emphatic and
> interrogative coughs.. yes,  I can see some uses.

I was also thinking of the phrases, such as "It shall be done,
superior female"
"tweaking his tailstump", "Truth", etc.

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 11:45:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:45:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Mail Server Problems
Message-ID: <B89B6F6D.27D73%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This is to inform everyone that the TravellerCentral mail server encountered
serious hardware problems Thursday night/Friday morning.  I replaced the
drive and restored from backup, but everything that was in the mail queue
has been lost.  Everything seems to be OK now.

If you sent a post, and it didn't appear on the list, it was probably lost
when the drive failed.  My sincerest apologies.

If anyone encounters problems, please let me know.

Thanks,

Tod




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 12:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:14:11 +1000
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <002301c1bb9a$73db63c0$ad5d8690@computer>

Chaotic Evil Halfling Thief Ranger!

I dunno where the Halfling came from...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 12:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:02:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <002201c1bb9a$732be9e0$ad5d8690@computer>

> From: Gonzalez
> They're hypocrites in most cases.
> I wonder how peaceful they'd be if someone punch them
> full in face.

Speaking as a peacenik, but not as a Bay Area Autoamorist:

You are assuming peace activists are pacifiists.  I'm opposed to the US
involvement in the war in the southern Philippines, but that's because I
want the Moros to WIN!

(Abu Sayyaf are clowns, but some of the other Moro groups are fairly
competent and sane.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 14:55:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:55:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211239501.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020222145536.3058.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>

Kiri said:
>If so... I don't know what to say.  Except that I
>really wondered what
>they would be saying if Osama took out the Berkeley
>BART station.

Those punks would go - "It's my fault Osammy, do it
again"

People like that are unhinged!



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 15:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:10:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <3C765F7E.5AB7EEA2@mail.cswnet.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
> anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
> mage, but... lawful neutral?

Maybe your a Vulcan. [chortl-snicker-rofl-ROFL-ROFLMAO]

I got Neutral Good Half-Elf Bard Ranger. I dunno about the Bard bit, and
no body is ever going to confuse me with a Half-Elf, but I can live with
it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 15:21:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:21:50 +0100
Subject: [TML] T4 question
In-Reply-To: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
References: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020222162150.774da757.jenry023@student.liu.se>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> What are people's opinion of the T4 supplement Imperial Squadrons?

Nice supplement. There are mass combat rules (designed to be possible to
use as a stand-alone game), information on hierarchy and standard
operating procedure, and advice on running a Navy campaign.

Every time I read this book (or Pocket Empires), I want to create an
online computer game based on the rules within...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 15:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:24:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <002201c1bb9a$732be9e0$ad5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>

>"You are assuming peace activists are pacifiists." 

I don't assume any such thing. But having grown up in
a very rough neighborhood I understand one simple
fact.
There are only two basic responses to force.
One is convincing the other guy that using force on
you isn't to his benefit
Two, using force yourself to convince him that it's to
his benefit to make nice. Unfortunately the nature of
man is such that it usually takes second option to
make it work.

What has annoyed me since 9/11 is that too many folks
have this idea that if we leave them alone they'll go
away or that somehow this country deserves what
happened to us on that horrid day. It makes me ill.
Don't get me wrong I am a peaceful man, but I won't
trade my life or liberty to achieve it. That way lies
slavery.

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Gonzalez
> > They're hypocrites in most cases.
> > I wonder how peaceful they'd be if someone punch
> them
> > full in face.
> 
> Speaking as a peacenik, but not as a Bay Area
> Autoamorist:
> 
> You are assuming peace activists are pacifiists. 
> I'm opposed to the US
> involvement in the war in the southern Philippines,
> but that's because I
> want the Moros to WIN!
> 
> (Abu Sayyaf are clowns, but some of the other Moro
> groups are fairly
> competent and sane.)
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:34:03 +0100
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
References: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
 <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020222163403.533c7556.jenry023@student.liu.se>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable
planets
> that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

I don't. If using official star charts, I change the star into a red
dwarf. When designing my own charts, white dwarves have no planets
whatsoever.

Yes, I know that they could have a bunch of rockballs, but I've chosen to
ignore this.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:49:02 +0900
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <15231368706.20020223004902@greimann.de>

Could  we  end  this  flamewar  now?  No more politics, preferences or
discimination  talk on the list, please! Some of it, from time to time
is ok, but this is getting out of hand. I don't care who you vote for,
what  your  politics  are, which political groups you detest, whom you
want to fuck next, which poisition you prefer, etc.

I JUST DON'T CARE!

Lets just get back to Traveller.
-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 16:14:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:14:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Mail Server Problems
References: <B89B6F6D.27D73%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C766E59.CA40D183@attbi.com>

So them Vargr Coursairs got a Xboat.

Listmom wrote:
> 
> This is to inform everyone that the TravellerCentral mail server encountered
> serious hardware problems Thursday night/Friday morning.  I replaced the
> drive and restored from backup, but everything that was in the mail queue
> has been lost.  Everything seems to be OK now.
> 
> If you sent a post, and it didn't appear on the list, it was probably lost
> when the drive failed.  My sincerest apologies.
> 
> If anyone encounters problems, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tod

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 16:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:46:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <15231368706.20020223004902@greimann.de>
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>

Easy for you to say!  *Your* country is leading in the medal count.  :-)

At 12:49 AM 2/23/2002 +0900, Volker wrote:
>Could  we  end  this  flamewar  now?  No more politics, preferences or
>discimination  talk on the list, please! Some of it, from time to time
>is ok, but this is getting out of hand. I don't care who you vote for,
>what  your  politics  are, which political groups you detest, whom you
>want to fuck next, which poisition you prefer, etc.
>
>I JUST DON'T CARE!
>
>Lets just get back to Traveller.
>--
>*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
>******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 17:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:50:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
References: <15231368706.20020223004902@greimann.de>
Message-ID: <3C763080.29343.9EFA4@localhost>

What are we gonna do tonight Brain?
the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 18:17:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014315443.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020222181753.65550.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> Hunter Gordon writes:
> > Heh I get a kick out of the idea some think the
> foreground images are cut
> > and paste photos. They are not, the artist is that
> good.
> 
> Also,why would you want to strive for that measure
of photorealism when you can cut and paste? :)
 One thing I learned in art college,was that you
shouldn't try so hard to make things photoreal. Make
your art your own. What's the point of making a pencil
drawn photograph?
What was the link to that site again, I think I've
lost or deleted that message. Hard to keep up with all
this mail.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:05:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] RE: Darrian page
In-Reply-To: <200202201106.g1KB6If20739@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ba1f$fb5d41f0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> What's the URL?
>

The URL is http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller .  Then just click one of
the Darrian links.  It is just a beginning right now, I will be adding
stuff as I go along.  I do have AM8, so I have most of the info I need,
I am just trying to make sure I don't include too much of it.  I plan
on assuming that people know the "big" stuff that is in AM8 and just
adding more "color" and planet information.

As an aside, I do recognize that the Darrians were probably bigger
that what I show for year 0.  But I really felt that they needed
to show significant change over 1000 years, and decided to make
Zamine a "client state" instead of an actual member and to make
Entrope a budding independent community that will get squashed
by the Sword Worlds.

> As you are concentrating on the Daryens or Darrians you might want to look
> at some of the land grab sites which covered worlds in this region. Now
> loudly blowing my own trumpet. Though not finished I have posted some
items
> on Cunnonic and Nonym. It was my take on these worlds that decided me that
> the Daryens or Darrians are a quiet people with a big stick attitude to
> those around them (when they can get away with it.)
>
> Antony

I have seen your landgrabs and am trying to make sure I don't conflict.

I do want to note that I have been consistent on calling them the Darrians
instead of the Daryens because I can't generate those maps.  (The way I
got the maps is by taking the one on the 1100 page and using cut-n-paste
to make the others.)  Over time, however, I will probably be changing
the names of the four offending planets to that given in the Regency
Sourcebook.  I am just not there yet.

I have also landgrabbed Mire and Jacent.  I will have those up soon, too.
I freely admit that I plan on continuing to landgrab more of the Darrians,
but I also want to be reponsible enough to finish what I have before
taking more.

And thank you very much John!  That list is exactly what I need to
finish that page.  Now I can change a couple of governments and tech
levels and it will be done too!

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 19:22:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:22:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <memo.51869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEPECLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I'm a Chaotic Good Elven Ranger/Druid.  Cool a tree hugger :)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
First rule of tactical 'splosives, someone always complains about the length
of the fuse. - www.SchlockMercenary.com, 20 Jan 2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 19:20:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:20:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Silliness
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>
>Yet another very silly personality test.
>
>What D&D character are you?
>
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
>

I came out Lawful Good Human Fighter Paladin, which suggests some flaws in
the test.  (I was expecting Lawful Neutral Human Fighter or Thief.)

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 19:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:29:18 -0000
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <3C765F7E.5AB7EEA2@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c1bbd7$ccfbc7a0$5b7d893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roseberry" <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> > http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell does
> > anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a bard, or a
> > mage, but... lawful neutral?
>
> Maybe you're a Vulcan. [chortl-snicker-rofl-ROFL-ROFLMAO]
>
> I got Neutral Good Half-Elf Bard Ranger. I dunno about the Bard bit, and
> no body is ever going to confuse me with a Half-Elf, but I can live with
> it.

It pegged me as a neutral good elf ranger/mage. I had myself pegged as a
chaotic good hobbit mage.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 19:47:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:47:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEECOCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Hmmm...

I am seeing a large preponderance to Rangers with this thing...

Hypothesis One: People who play Traveller are more in tune with nature...

Hypothesis Two: The person who created that page loves Rangers

Hypothesis Three: There is something wrong with the weighting that the
creator used and it is popping out Rangers Willy-Nilly...

Comments Anyone ???

Geoff McDonald
(250) 595-5915
http://www.motionblur.ca

 



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Feldhusen)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202211225450.5910-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202221354100.26413-100000@hagbard.io.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> Yet another very silly personality test.
> 
> What D&D character are you?
> 
> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I (Kiri) came off as lawful neutral elf bard mage.  How the hell
> does anyone figure I'm LN?  I can sort of see me as a D&D elf, a
> bard, or a mage, but... lawful neutral?

I got Neutral Good Elf Mage Ranger.  It sort-of works.  I suppose.

-- 
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 20:11:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:11:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEECOCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <B89BE5D5.27E87%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/22/02 11:47 AM, Geoff @ MotionBlur at mcdonald@motionblur.ca wrote:

> Hmmm...
> 
> I am seeing a large preponderance to Rangers with this thing...
> 
> Hypothesis One: People who play Traveller are more in tune with nature...
> 
> Hypothesis Two: The person who created that page loves Rangers
> 
> Hypothesis Three: There is something wrong with the weighting that the
> creator used and it is popping out Rangers Willy-Nilly...
> 
> Comments Anyone ???

How do you think I feel?

Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 20:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:11:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEECOCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>; from mcdonald@motionblur.ca on Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 11:47:53AM -0800
References: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEECOCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <20020222131122.A14325@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 11:47:53AM -0800, Geoff @ MotionBlur wrote:
> 
> I am seeing a large preponderance to Rangers with this thing...

Well, here's an outlier: I got Lawful Good Fighter-Bard

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 20:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:39:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEECOCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014410345.5627.ajackson@ping>

Geoff @ MotionBlur writes:
> Hmmm...
> 
> I am seeing a large preponderance to Rangers with this thing...
> 
> Hypothesis One: People who play Traveller are more in tune with nature...
> 
> Hypothesis Two: The person who created that page loves Rangers
> 
> Hypothesis Three: There is something wrong with the weighting that the
> creator used and it is popping out Rangers Willy-Nilly...

Probably 2 or 3, since I didn't answer any questions in a pro-nature way and
got ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 20:39:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:39:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEPECLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/22/02 11:22 AM, Peter Scarrott at peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
wrote:

> I'm a Chaotic Good Elven Ranger/Druid.  Cool a tree hugger :)
> 
> Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
> http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
> mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
> 
> IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
> vi-
> And life is harsh and rarely fair.
> First rule of tactical 'splosives, someone always complains about the length
> of the fuse. - www.SchlockMercenary.com, 20 Jan 2002
> 
> 

Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as a
group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
Does that make me evil?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 20:56:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:56:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #179
Message-ID: <142.9f9b00d.29a80a69@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2002 2:45:29 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> Hasn't this world been super-detailed already by Dream Pod 9 in
> their Heavy Gear series ?
> 

Has it? I have no clue as i dont know any thing about dream pod. is this 
heavy gear series for use with traveller?


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 21:31:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:31:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Silliness
Message-ID: <20020222.133135.-229937.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> >What D&D character are you?
> >
> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
> >

Having never played DnD I was reluctant to find out, but decided why not.

I came out Neutral Good Elf Ranger Bard

I've read the meanings and find it a fair analysis of me.
Detailed Results:

Alignment:
Lawful Good ----- XXX (3)
Neutral Good ---- XXXXXX (6)
Chaotic Good ---- XXXX (4)
Lawful Neutral -- (-4)
True Neutral ---- (-3)
Chaotic Neutral - (0)
Lawful Evil ----- (-1)
Neutral Evil ---- X (1)
Chaotic Evil ---- X (1)

Class:
Human ---- (-2)
Half-Elf - XXXXXX (6)
Elf ------ XXXXXX (6)
Halfling - X (1)
Dwarf ---- (-4)

Class:
Fighter - (-2)
Ranger -- XXXXXX (6)
Paladin - X (1)
Cleric -- XXX (3)
Mage ---- (-2)
Druid --- (-2)
Thief --- (-5)
Bard ---- XXXXXX (6)


Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:39:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <3C763080.29343.9EFA4@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
 <15231368706.20020223004902@greimann.de>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222133813.009ea350@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 2/22/02 -0600, you wrote:
>What are we gonna do tonight Brain?
>the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
>Judge Olympic Figure Skating

Keyboard kill!

More importantly, new sig file.

No, to go see if I can get Kiri with this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 21:42:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:42:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Silliness
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222134144.009f6d80@mindspring.com>

At 11:20 AM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I came out Lawful Good Human Fighter Paladin, which suggests some flaws in
>the test.  (I was expecting Lawful Neutral Human Fighter or Thief.)

You?  LG?  It is to laugh, my dear barrister.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 21:59:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:59:46 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <200202211233.g1LCXVZ20525@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202222254080.20568-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mikko Parviainen writes:
>Hm, what means the word "attractive"? Does it just connotate a
>good-looking person, or can character or something other non-physical
>thing matter here?
>
>(I may be biased, but I have seen about three ugly people during the time
>I have been counting. [About ten years.])

Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:11:06 GMT
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3c76c16d.48417622@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as a
>group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
>Does that make me evil?

Speaking as a neutral good elf mage bard, I feel I'm pretty
representative of the TML - since there seem to be more bards coming
out of the questionnaire than I've ever seen in an actual game of
D&D... (in which category I include Baldur's Gate & sequels).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:05:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Tangentially Related - Nautical
Message-ID: <OF3BB72438.55C533D7-ON85256B68.0078EC2E@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
        The Solstation site started getting these shipping newsletters. I 
think someone thought we were talking about sea ships, not space ships!
        Nevertheless, seeking inspiration anywhere, they've got some cool 
sites. The example quoted below is from their site for buying/selling 
ships. 
(http://www.marinedigital.com/en/mall/ship/index.asp?menu_code=ShipPurchaseRegister). 
If you are looking for inspiration or color text for Traveller ships, it 
might not be a bad place to browse. Of if you ever wondered how much a 
Norwegian Patrol Cruiser would set you back...
                Jo






Ship Details

Main Category
  Special Vessels
Ship Type
  Patrol Ship
Ship Name
 
Built Year
 1962
Price Idea
 Offer Million USD
Capacity
 480 DWT
LOA / B / D
LOA
 54 M
Breadth
  M
Depth
 4,9 M
Scrap
 NO
Ship Location
 NORWAY
Full Description
This is a vessel that use to be guarding the norwegian cost in the 
northern barents sea. It have a ice classification - 1a. The vessel 
itself,is in good condition and everything above deck is made in 
aluminium. Theres no equipment in the whellhouse,and theres no main or 
aux. engine onbord. The vessel have to be moved away,so therefor we are 
willing to sell it for a low price. Theres beds for 33 people,and all 
cabins in very good condition 
Files / Photos





--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:29:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:29:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #179
In-Reply-To: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020222222934.45063.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does
the TML look like 
as a
group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it
was the wine and 
cheese.
Does that make me evil?

I'll keep the stats on it.  If you have already put
your info up on the TML, I'll get that.  If not, send
it to me directly or just put it on the TML and I'll
get it from there.  If you aren't sure, email me and
I'll let you know if I got yours.

BTW, I'm a Chaotic Good Dwarf Fighter Bard.  I can buy
it all excpt the dwarf.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:39:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202222254080.20568-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202222254080.20568-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <p04330109b89c78ab2410@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:59 PM +0100 2/22/02, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Mikko Parviainen writes:
>>Hm, what means the word "attractive"? Does it just connotate a
>>good-looking person, or can character or something other non-physical
>>thing matter here?
>>
>>(I may be biased, but I have seen about three ugly people during the time
>>I have been counting. [About ten years.])
>
>Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
>GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
>average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
>opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).

Could be.

Similarly, we were playing an old west game and a GM wanted to know 
how to handled how the shortage of women affect male responses.  My 
suggestion was that every woman automatically got 1 level higher in 
attractiveness.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:41:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:41:24 EST
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <e5.14152967.29a82314@aol.com>

Lawful Neutral Elven Ranger Mage

Hmm...I must be the world's only Hobbit shaped Elf.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:49:09 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #179
In-Reply-To: <142.9f9b00d.29a80a69@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDBHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :
> > Hasn't this world been super-detailed already by
> > Dream Pod 9 in their Heavy Gear series ?
>
> Has it? I have no clue as i dont know any thing about
> dream pod. is this heavy gear series for use with traveller?

Sorry, I thought I put a <grin> in there.

"Heavy Gear" is a non-Traveller, mecha-style , wargame and
roleplaying game by Dream Pod 9. It just so happens that they
call the world on which the game is set "Terra Nova".

This should not prevent you doing what you like with the
Traveller version.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:47:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:47:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] ship building request
Message-ID: <20020222.145026.-248433.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Attention Gearheads,

I am in need of some decommissioned Imperial Naval, Merchant, and Scout
starships. Weapons are mandatory. Jump 4 minimum, Maneuver 1 ok. I would
prefer MT rules, but could accept other, as long as the crew compliment,
passengers, and sub craft are listed. 

The carrier will not have fighters or bombers, but shuttles, and smaller
transports. The carrier will need 10+ labs, 10+ large manufacturing
areas. The rest is up to you.

 300,000 DT Navy Carrier
 100,000 DT Merchant Fuel Tender
  50,000 DT Merchant Agro Tender
  40,000 DT Merchant Supply Freighter
  20,000 DT Merchant Liner
   5,000 DT Navy Frigate Escort
   5,000 DT Navy Medical Frigate
   1,000 DT Navy Corvette Escort
     400 DT Scout Surveyor

As long as you don't ask why, I wont be tempted to devastate your
landgrab!

Suffice it to say - The General would be very grateful, and possibly
defend your world.

Thank you in advance,


Brig. General Turokan
commander - 8th Heavy Interstellar Infantry Division

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:52:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:52:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
Message-ID: <B89C0BB3.27F21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

All the good and lawful types are a bane to be destroyed. Up Evil!, Down
good!  Any other dark one out there?


BTW, I have started to do a Traveller version just for yucks.

I'll let you know when you can try 1.0 of 'what kind of traveller character
are you'.  Naturally, I'll be consulting the TML on this.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 22:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:55:31 -0700
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3c76c16d.48417622@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C76CC63.3040702@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as a
>>group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
>>Does that make me evil?
>>
> 
> Speaking as a neutral good elf mage bard, I feel I'm pretty
> representative of the TML - since there seem to be more bards coming
> out of the questionnaire than I've ever seen in an actual game of
> D&D... (in which category I include Baldur's Gate & sequels).
> 
> Stephen
> 

Yeah, I ended up a neutral good half-elf bard fighter.

So I guess the _real_ conclusion is that we're munchkins all!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:09:04 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <3C76CF90.A657D212@ameritech.net>

Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:39:55 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Silliness

> Should someone be keeping stats on this. What does the TML look like
> as a group? I'm feeling in the minority. I wonder if it was the wine
> and cheese. Does that make me evil?

Probably. 

And just so you don't have to feel so all alone, it rated me as a
chaotic nuetral human mage bard. OK so it isn't quite CE but the next
alignment over (and flat out wrong. I rate as neutral good by my
understanding of dnd alignment.)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:11:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:11:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16eOq4-0007AI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

On 21 Feb 2002 at 12:28, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From:  Lois Bujold Mailing List <lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
> > 
> > Yet another very silly personality test.
> > 
> > What D&D character are you?
> > 
> > http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/

Neutral Good Elven Bard-Mage

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:12:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3c76c16d.48417622@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C76D055.C983DCC3@premier.net>



Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> >Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as a
> >group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
> >Does that make me evil?

Either that or the years of evil medical school....
> 
> Speaking as a neutral good elf mage bard, I feel I'm pretty
> representative of the TML - since there seem to be more bards coming
> out of the questionnaire than I've ever seen in an actual game of
> D&D... (in which category I include Baldur's Gate & sequels).

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I came out as a True Neutral Dwarf Ranger
Bard.  I suspect that listing "honor" as the most important value pegged
me as a dwarf.  Especially since D&D doesn't have Klingons.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:15:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> 
> On 21 Feb 2002 at 12:38, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> > What's more likely to be a problem is when we try to get rid of
> > things that we don't fully understand the large-scale functionality
> > of, such as the actual function of homosexuality and bisexuality in
> > terms of the way the species works (they don't actually work against
> > the survival of the species as a whole, nor even specific gene
> > lines... just the gene lines of specific individuals) or the sickle
> > cell gene (which serves a protective function in the area of the
> > world where it evolved) or cyclothymic/bipolar mood disorders and
> > the autism spectrum syndromes such as Asperger's and ADD/ADHD (very,
> > VERY common among creative artists and scientists).
> 
> Getting rid of bipolar disorders entirely could mess things up quite a
> bit, because there are an aweful lot of 'normal' people out there who
> show mild bipolar symptoms, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if in
> mild forms it is a useful trait.

Yep, that's sort of tinkering that could be *very* problematic.  I'm 
betting that people will work really hard to stamp out all such traits 
and will probably be able to reduce the incidence of them a great 
deal.  I'm wondering if oddballs like many of us will be rarer in the 
future.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 18:36:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:36:14 US/Eastern
Subject: [TML] ship building request
Message-ID: <200202222336.g1MNaEf04709@ns6.icdc.com>

Sounds like a good project for this weekend I'll flesh somethings out. do
you have any other requeirments. and because these are decommissioned ships
we're not talkint state of the art anymore right just some really good old 
idea's.


> Attention Gearheads,
> 
> I am in need of some decommissioned Imperial Naval, Merchant, and Scout
> starships. Weapons are mandatory. Jump 4 minimum, Maneuver 1 ok. I would
> prefer MT rules, but could accept other, as long as the crew compliment,
> passengers, and sub craft are listed. 
> 
> The carrier will not have fighters or bombers, but shuttles, and smaller
> transports. The carrier will need 10+ labs, 10+ large manufacturing
> areas. The rest is up to you.
> 
>  300,000 DT Navy Carrier
>  100,000 DT Merchant Fuel Tender
>   50,000 DT Merchant Agro Tender
>   40,000 DT Merchant Supply Freighter
>   20,000 DT Merchant Liner
>    5,000 DT Navy Frigate Escort
>    5,000 DT Navy Medical Frigate
>    1,000 DT Navy Corvette Escort
>      400 DT Scout Surveyor
> 
> As long as you don't ask why, I wont be tempted to devastate your
> landgrab!
> 
> Suffice it to say - The General would be very grateful, and possibly
> defend your world.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> 
> Brig. General Turokan
> commander - 8th Heavy Interstellar Infantry Division
> 
> We are the Borg. 
> Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
> We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
> Your culture will adapt to service ours.
> Resistance is futile.
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:41:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:41:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3c76c16d.48417622@post.demon.co.uk> <3C76CC63.3040702@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C76D724.D90EA8D0@premier.net>



Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> So I guess the _real_ conclusion is that we're munchkins all!

No, the real conclusion is that whoever wrote that algorithm is a
munchkin.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:43:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:43:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020222154117.00a37ec0@mailhost.efn.org>

Kiri wrote:

>Keith Hamilton Cobb, on the other hand, needs to be dipped in honey and 
>chained to my bed.  And I'll take the Vulcan, too, as much because of her 
>demeanor and attitude as because of her curves... I've actually grown to 
>LIKE that haircut.

I can't stand the haircut OR the obviously artificial and exaggerated 
curves.  I'll agree that Mr. Cobb is quite an impressive specimen, however. :)

Now, for attitude:  given these data points, it appears that you are drawn 
to  self-confidence bordering on arrogance, diffidence, and a certain 
amount of ruthless pragmatism (with the physical prowess to back all of the 
above up); tempered only by the bare minimum of "niceness" required by the 
social conventions of those around them - and calculatedly so.  Confirm, 
deny, amend or clarify?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 22 23:59:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:59:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <3C76D055.C983DCC3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > >Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as a
> > >group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
> > >Does that make me evil?
> 
> Either that or the years of evil medical school....
> > 
> > Speaking as a neutral good elf mage bard, I feel I'm pretty
> > representative of the TML - since there seem to be more bards coming
> > out of the questionnaire than I've ever seen in an actual game of
> > D&D... (in which category I include Baldur's Gate & sequels).
> 
> Yeah, I know what you mean.  I came out as a True Neutral Dwarf Ranger
> Bard.  I suspect that listing "honor" as the most important value pegged
> me as a dwarf.  Especially since D&D doesn't have Klingons.... ;-)
> 

Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me a
dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
care, lol)

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:41:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:41:19 +1100
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020223114119.A30485@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Yep, that's sort of tinkering that could be *very* problematic.  I'm
> betting that people will work really hard to stamp out all such
> traits and will probably be able to reduce the incidence of them a
> great deal.  I'm wondering if oddballs like many of us will be rarer
> in the future.

Oddballs like us probably will be less common.  Oddballs *vastly
unlike* us will probably be much *more* common, whether by accident or
design.

e.g. Someone edits a whole bunch of genes that are associated with
ADHD, Alzheimer's, Autism, Bipolar Disorders, etc through to Z, and
ends up not with a perfectly normal person but with a barely viable
being whose brain development is *severely* messed up.

Or studies find out that successful people aren't quite average
(shock! horror!), and plenty of parents want their kids to be
successful, right?  The outcome might be a multi-generational genetic
rat-race of modifications.

Or there may be people who want their children(*) to have cutting-edge
modifications not yet in the general population.  Even if fully
successful, the resulting person may well be labelled 'oddball'.  If
not fully succcessful, then even more so.

Or even parents who choose their children's genetic makeup in the
belief that they will as a consequence turn out in a particular way
and try their hardest to keep them to that predetermined path?  Or
hardly bother with any parenting since obviously their child will turn
out OK because they have 'good genes'?  Either seems like a good way
to raise 'oddball' children.  Genetics isn't everything.


(*) Or themselves, there's no reason to suppose that gene
modifications can't be retrofitted with sufficiently good technology.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:41:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:41:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: D&D Personality Test
In-Reply-To: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <m4pd7u40i2md1q2duljbt2m106f94ib7qr@4ax.com>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:39:58 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>>
>>Yet another very silly personality test.
>>
>>What D&D character are you?
>>
>http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~ellingwd/dndwho/
>>

Hmmm... Neutral Good Halfling Bard Ranger

I expected Lawful Neutral; the "Halfling" part is probably OK; Bard... I
suspect that I do have the inclination, though probably not the skill, and
I have no idea where Ranger came from.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:21:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:21:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202222254080.20568-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202211233.g1LCXVZ20525@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222162101.009f60b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:59 PM 2/22/02 +0100, you wrote:

>Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
>GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
>average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
>opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).

Take a quirk: finds plain people attractive. (-1)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:20:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:20:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
In-Reply-To: <B89C0BB3.27F21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222161758.009f4540@mindspring.com>

At 02:52 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the good and lawful types are a bane to be destroyed. Up Evil!, Down
>good!  Any other dark one out there?

True Neutral Dwarf Fighter-Ranger.

I can be bought.

Oddly enough, Dragon just had an interesting article on dwarfish rangers, 
making them experts on the creatures of the Underdark.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:44:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020222154117.00a37ec0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221642000.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> Now, for attitude:  given these data points, it appears that you are drawn 
> to  self-confidence bordering on arrogance, diffidence, and a certain 
> amount of ruthless pragmatism (with the physical prowess to back all of the 
> above up); tempered only by the bare minimum of "niceness" required by the 
> social conventions of those around them - and calculatedly so.  Confirm, 
> deny, amend or clarify?

I think I answered this already.

Should I resend it?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:45:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3C76D055.C983DCC3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222164433.009f8590@mindspring.com>

At 03:59 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me a
>dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
>lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
>care, lol)

In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the 
Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:17:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:17:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <001901c1bc07$db0c64a0$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>

I come out as a:

Neutral Evil Dwarf Thief Fighter

Wayne
ewart67@shaw.ca

"Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life." Terry Pratchett


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:20:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:20:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] ship building request
Message-ID: <20020222.172029.-248433.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks csmith,

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:36:14 US/Eastern csmith@ICDC.com writes:
> Sounds like a good project for this weekend I'll flesh somethings 
> out. do you have any other requirements.

Possibly, ask me off-line.

> and because these
> are decommissioned ships we're not talkint state of the art
> anymore right just some really good old idea's.

Right...

> > As long as you don't ask why, I wont be tempted to devastate your
> > landgrab!
> > 
> > Suffice it to say - The General would be very grateful, and 
> possibly
> > defend your world.
> > 
> > Thank you in advance,
> > 
> > 
> > Brig. General Turokan
> > commander - 8th Heavy Interstellar Infantry Division
> > 

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 00:49:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:49:16 +0900
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <1137931000.20020223094916@greimann.de>



Am  14N223, las ich folgendes:

> Easy for you to say!  *Your* country is leading in the medal count.  :-)

It  is? I don't really watch sports or german news lately, so I didn't
notice. Not that I care about it much ;-)


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:38:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:38:26 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <200202230121.g1N1LiOH025470@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202230234500.22061-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>>Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
>>GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
>>average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
>>opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).
>
>Take a quirk: finds plain people attractive. (-1)

I said average-looking, not plain. To put it another way (in other
words, to make it plain what I mean ;-), I don't think average-looking
people are plain.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:40:53 +0000
Subject: [TML] D&D Personality Test
In-Reply-To: <200202230121.g1N1LiOH025470@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223013748.02b444e0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>

Chaotic Good Half-Elf Ranger Bard

Alignment:
Chaotic Good characters are independent types with a strong belief in the 
value of goodness. They have little use for governments and other forces of 
order, and will generally do their own things, without heed to such groups.

Race:
Half-Elves are a cross between a human and an elf. They are smaller, like 
their elven ancestors, but have a much shorter lifespan. They are sometimes 
looked down upon as half-breeds, but this is rare. They have both the 
curious drive of humans and the patience of elves.

Primary Class:
Rangers are the defenders of nature and the elements. They are in tune with 
the Earth, and work to keep it safe and healthy.

Secondary Class:
Bards are the entertainers. They sing, dance, and play instruments to make 
other people happy, and, frequently, make money. They also tend to dabble 
in magic a bit.


Trying to work out if I can get more syllables into it....

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:47:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222164433.009f8590@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014428822.4086.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> At 03:59 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me a
> >dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
> >lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
> >care, lol)
> 
> In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the 
> Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)

And barbarian (any nonlawful), bard (any nonlawful), and druid (any neutral).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 01:58:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:58:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: D&D Personality Test
In-Reply-To: <m4pd7u40i2md1q2duljbt2m106f94ib7qr@4ax.com>
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175712.009f5340@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 2/22/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Hmmm... Neutral Good Halfling Bard Ranger
>
>I expected Lawful Neutral; the "Halfling" part is probably OK; Bard... I
>suspect that I do have the inclination, though probably not the skill, and
>I have no idea where Ranger came from.

Note that Bards can be extended to include storytellers of all types.. I 
ran one that was bloody Aesop once.  Talked a dragon into ignoring the rest 
of the party as they robbed him of the things we needed.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 02:46:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:46:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] RE: Silliness
Message-ID: <3C770291.24D4388@together.net>

	I got: Neutral Good Half-Elf Ranger-Fighter
--
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:43:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #180
Message-ID: <21.198166a4.29a85bb6@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2002 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does
> the TML look like 

I'm not overly sure what you mean, TML has links to some of the systems, 
though i notice theres way to many that have no write ups at all.  Which 
sucks cause some of those systems i already have notes on. hehehe one 
advantage of TML is that i have been playing Traveller for over 20 years so i 
have notes out the wazoo on lots of planets.  In fact i am compiling another 
one right now.

But as for keeping stats on the TML well i scanned the Spinward Marches 
books, printed it out and highlighted all the systems that were taken...at 
least in the Spinward Marches.

> it to me directly or just put it on the TML and I'll
> get it from there.  If you aren't sure, email me and
> I'll let you know if I got yours.

I would be happy for you or anyone else to take a look at what i have posted 
so far here's the URL   http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/landgrab1.html

In fact because of the recent server glitch perhaps i shoudl repost the 
orginal message in case it was missed.



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 02:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:45:41 EST
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova  (REPOST)
Message-ID: <71.1afafe24.29a85c55@aol.com>

Do to the recent server glitch i am reposting this as i never saw it in the 
digest and thought it might have gotten tossed out
. If you have already seen this please excuse the repost.

Unless there are any objections i would liek to claim Terra Nova.

0511   Terra Nova Querion\Spinward Marches

I have actually been working on this for a while from a pile of hand written 
notes from ages past.  I would welcome any comments you can offer.  I think 
theres too much info to post here so i tossed it all together in to a website 
form. here's the link.

http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/landgrab1.html


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 03:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:08:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
Message-ID: <c1.1c4de7ca.29a8619e@aol.com>

Kiri writes:

>I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
>lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
>care, lol)
>
>Kiri

 It isn't now, either, but not for the same reason.

GC

(Under D&D3, race/class combos are not limited and multi-classing is 
unfettered except for an experience hit if the classes get too far apart. 
What makes the above combo "illegal" is that 3E bards can't be lawful.  Oh, 
and they call Mages "Wizards" now...)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 03:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:47:23 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <15231368706.20020223004902@greimann.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202231344080.11439-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Volker:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Volker wrote:

> Could  we  end  this  flamewar  now?  No more politics, preferences or
> discimination  talk on the list, please! Some of it, from time to time
> is ok, but this is getting out of hand. I don't care who you vote for,
> what  your  politics  are, which political groups you detest, whom you
> want to fuck next, which poisition you prefer, etc.
>
> I JUST DON'T CARE!
>
> Lets just get back to Traveller.

 Nicely spoken. I had to replace the sping under my "D" key from pressing
Delete so many times. Started to just do it from the listing. Rather than
read any of the msg. Makes me wonder what I have missed that was
important.

 Back to Traveller. Any tech out ther that have Traveelr aide prgs for CT
or MT for a Commodore 64/128. Or can aide me off list in programming the
matrixes from the books into the system in Basic V2? May sound weird as a
question. But it is Traveller and is a subject I deal with daily.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 03:19:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:19:51 EST
Subject: [TML] OT "Silliness"
Message-ID: <181.40dcf2b.29a86457@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/22/02 5:23:44 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the
>Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)
>

Not quite. Bards and Barbarians can't be Lawful, and Druids still have to 
have a "Neutral" component (though it can now be any of the neutrals)

ObTrav: None, since "Detect Alignment" isn't a standard Traveller psionic 
ability (or even a "Special"), which makes this my last post on the subject...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 03:11:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:11:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003401c1bc19$7937f840$255d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> Easy for you to say!  *Your* country is leading in the medal count.  :-)
>
> At 12:49 AM 2/23/2002 +0900, Volker wrote:
> >Could  we  end  this  flamewar  now?  No more politics, preferences or
> >discimination  talk on the list, please! Some of it, from time to time
> >is ok, but this is getting out of hand. I don't care who you vote for,
> >what  your  politics  are, which political groups you detest, whom you
> >want to fuck next, which poisition you prefer, etc.

Actually, I think Australia is doing very well, with gold medals in "Sheer
Dumb Luck", and "Falling Over Gracefully".

<briefly serious>
Of course, the amount of signal on the list _has_ been close to zero over
the last few days.  Oh well, if I had had anything on topic to say, I would
have said it.  I guess this just happens every now and then.
</briefly serious>

But I am intrigued by being rated as Chaotic Evil...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 03:22:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:22:51 +1000
Subject: [TML] Silliness
Message-ID: <003501c1bc19$79dfd100$255d8690@computer>

> From: Tod Glenn
> I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and cheese.
> Does that make me evil?

Well, I'm evil too, and I rated wine and cheese as the least likely.  I
preferred "bread and ale".

On the over-abundance of rangers:  a lot of that seems to be due to class
being the only indicator where the second rating is shown as well as the
first.  Without it, I would have just shown up as Chaotic Evil Halfling
Thief, which would be perfectly sensible.

The scary thing is that the rating does actually make a kind of sense,
although I am reluctant to admit the Halfling bit.  In fact, if I had
thought of it, I would have acted according to my supposedly nasty and
sneaky nature, and replaced Halfling with Half-Elf, a rating in which I only
scored one point less.  (Since I'm not fat, I could quite plausibly deduct a
point from my Halflingness:  the detailed breakdown says "Halflings are
short and fat, like minuature people.")

The Chaotic Evil, of course, is mostly a matter of how I interpreted the
questions.  I tend not to accept "Law" and "Good" at face value.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 04:18:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:18:00 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20222.201800.0W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> 
>> On 21 Feb 2002 at 12:38, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>> > What's more likely to be a problem is when we try to get rid of
>> > things that we don't fully understand the large-scale functionality
>> > of, such as the actual function of homosexuality and bisexuality in
>> > terms of the way the species works (they don't actually work against
>> > the survival of the species as a whole, nor even specific gene
>> > lines... just the gene lines of specific individuals) or the sickle
>> > cell gene (which serves a protective function in the area of the
>> > world where it evolved) or cyclothymic/bipolar mood disorders and
>> > the autism spectrum syndromes such as Asperger's and ADD/ADHD (very,
>> > VERY common among creative artists and scientists).
>> 
>> Getting rid of bipolar disorders entirely could mess things up quite a
>> bit, because there are an aweful lot of 'normal' people out there who
>> show mild bipolar symptoms, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if in
>> mild forms it is a useful trait.
>
> Yep, that's sort of tinkering that could be *very* problematic.  I'm 
> betting that people will work really hard to stamp out all such traits 
> and will probably be able to reduce the incidence of them a great 
> deal.  I'm wondering if oddballs like many of us will be rarer in the 
> future.

If we aren't careful, we could do *considerable* damage to the species
this way. 

Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies. 

The end result was that by making it harder to do double blind studies,
several drugs and treatments were in use for a decade or more before
enough evidence accumulated to show that they didn't work any better
than older, cheaper treatments and in some cases, didn't work as *well*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 05:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:04:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: T'pol
Message-ID: <a05100301b89cd35d4112@[154.20.13.97]>

>  > And I'll take the Vulcan, too,
>  > as much because of her
>>  demeanor and attitude as because of her curves...
>>  I've actually grown to
>>  LIKE that haircut.
>  >
>>  Kiri

Can you imagine what it would be like to try to sleep with T'pol?

"Respectfully, Captain, I do not think your current action is 
well-advised... I can't recommend that course, either, sir... 
Captain, that technique is in violation of several Star Fleet 
regulations... Sorry, Captain, your species is simply not evolved 
enough to attempt that position..."

Et-freakin'-cetera...

Best,
   +GMG+
...just can't force myself to endure any more of that show...
-- 
    ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------ 
                          <neo@total.net>
     "Sex times Technology equals The Future." -- J.G. Ballard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 05:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:09:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
Message-ID: <000601bbf935$cb1737e0$50617043@expwncog>

As some of you may know, I have been out of touch for quite some time.  I
have been enjoying adventures in computing.  My system basically crashed and
I lost over half of the data on my hard drive, including most of my drivers.
What I had left was disintegrated, so over the next few days, I will be
reinstalling what I can and trying to forget about what is perminantly lost
to me.

If you are expecting mail from me, it will be forthcoming as soon as I can
get to it.

Later,
Jason


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 05:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:45:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT "Silliness"
References: <181.40dcf2b.29a86457@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C772C70.F15EF703@mindspring.com>

Why couldn't it be a special power. IIRC that category is for anything the GM
wants, they just try to balance it. In fact let me get the grinder...there can't
tell who's name is on that idea.

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/22/02 5:23:44 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com
> writes:
>
> >In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the
> >Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)
> >
>
> Not quite. Bards and Barbarians can't be Lawful, and Druids still have to
> have a "Neutral" component (though it can now be any of the neutrals)
>
> ObTrav: None, since "Detect Alignment" isn't a standard Traveller psionic
> ability (or even a "Special"), which makes this my last post on the subject...
>
> GC

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 06:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:12:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
In-Reply-To: <000601bbf935$cb1737e0$50617043@expwncog>
Message-ID: <000001c1bc31$1fbfd6d0$6401a8c0@goca>

What do you need drivers for?

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Barnabas
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 1997 21:10
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:@pimout1-int.prodigy.net;
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?

As some of you may know, I have been out of touch for quite some time.
I
have been enjoying adventures in computing.  My system basically crashed
and
I lost over half of the data on my hard drive, including most of my
drivers.
What I had left was disintegrated, so over the next few days, I will be
reinstalling what I can and trying to forget about what is perminantly
lost
to me.

If you are expecting mail from me, it will be forthcoming as soon as I
can
get to it.

Later,
Jason




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 06:27:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Slater)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:27:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
References: <c1.1c4de7ca.29a8619e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C77365C.4070305@bellsouth.net>

> Oh, and they call Mages "Wizards" now...)

Bah, they're still Magic-Users to me! :)

Survey pegged me as: Neutral Good Elf Bard Mage

Not sure how I feel about that...except my first reaction of "Bard Mage, 
huh?!" :)






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:13:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:13:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] An Apology
Message-ID: <001c01c1bc42$09e74760$b6ddd63f@customer>

This is a repost

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 3:11 AM
Subject: An Apology


> To the members of the TML:
>
> I apologize for spamming the list.  In my sleep deprived state I allow
> myself to be taken in a hoax that wouldn't have fooled a literate child.
I
> saw a message from my father, who I haven't heard from in months, I
reacted
> emotionally instead of thoughtfully and this is the result.  I shall
refrain
> from posting anything remotely like this in the future lest I be duped
> again.  If I do, Listmon I want you to unsubscribe me immediately.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:15:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:15:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] information, please:  Bowman System
Message-ID: <004401c1bc42$5272c040$b6ddd63f@customer>

Sorry this didn't make it through the crash.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] information, please: Bowman System


> > Ladies and Gentlemen,
> >
> >      Would any kind soul with easy access to the "Beltstrike"(?) boxed
> > module detailing the Bowman system please answer the following
questions?
> >
> > (A)  What is the population of Koenig's Rock?
>
> 800
>
> > (B)  When was the habitat in Koenig's Rock constructed?
> > (C)  How many levels does said habitat consist of?
>
> 7-Rockport, Oldtown, the Strip, Koenig, Leland, Burrow, and the power
plant.
>
> "Koenig's Rock was the site of Fleet-Vice-Admiral Koenig's headquarters
> during the latter part of his campaign against <Sword Worlder> Denisov's
> squadron in 629."  The navy withdrew from the Bowman system in 706 and
> turned it over to the IISS.  The Rock is not under IISS control.
>
>  "Rockport was originally the naval installation, later abandoned to the
> residents."
>  "The power plant is also a relic of the navy."
>  "Oldtown is the original civilian settlement."
>  "The Strip was originally merely a tunnel connecting Oldtown with the
base;
> when the base became a civilian spaceport, businesses began tunneling into
> the Strip's walls."
>  "Koenig dates from soon after the abandonment of the base,  and was
> tunneled directly under Rockport to provide space for the growing
community.
> Similarly, Undertown is an expansion of Oldtown."
> "Leland and Burrows are comparatively recent tunnels...to cash in on an
> abortive boom period.
>
> >      and finally...
> >
> > (D)  On what level is Talchek's office located?
>
> I couldn't find a 'Talchek' but I did find a 'Tolhatch' "A person with a
> knowledge of local customs and a large number of contacts in various
places,
> who hires out as a trouble-shooter." Office is located on the Leland
level.
>
> A note on the 'levels'.  On the map of Koenig Oldtown, the Strip and
> Rockport are connected by a vertical tunnel.  Koenig sits under the Strip
> and Rockport.  Undertown is at the same level under Oldtown.  There's no
> vertical link between the two.  To go from Undertown to Koenig require
going
> up to Oldtown/the Strip/Rockport or down to Leland, which runs under
> Undertown and Koenig.  The power plant is connected to Leland by a
vertical
> tunnel. Leland is in line with Oldtown/the Strip, the power plant is in
line
> with Rockport, more or less.  Burrow runs under Leland.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 07:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:26:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020223072821.XXEN319.dorsey@link>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 at 12:11:01 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
>
>How do you think I feel?
>
>Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric

I have a PC in one of Tod's games and here is my reaction.  He makes life
chaotic for his PCs.  Most of us already call him Evil with a capital E,
the rest just haven't found out yet.  We believe him to be human.  Some of
the things that happen can only be explained with technology
indistinguishable from magic.  He is the God, not just a cleric, of that
universe.  So, yeah Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric works.  ;->

Me?  I forget exactly but it was something like Chaotic Good something Bard
Ranger.  I agree with the chaotic good part.

I agree, the questionnaire has a heavy bias to producing rangers, and
bards, too.  It has some other problems with the way the questions are
designed.  But hey, this isn't exactly hard science we're working with,
here, LOL.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 07:32:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:32:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <20020223072821.XXEN319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B89C8591.2512%mole@solsec.org>

on 2/22/02 11:26 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 at 12:11:01 -0800, Tod Glenn
> <webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
>> 
>> How do you think I feel?
>> 
>> Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric
> 
> I have a PC in one of Tod's games and here is my reaction.  He makes life
> chaotic for his PCs.  Most of us already call him Evil with a capital E,
> the rest just haven't found out yet.  We believe him to be human.  Some of
> the things that happen can only be explained with technology
> indistinguishable from magic.  He is the God, not just a cleric, of that
> universe.  So, yeah Chaotic Evil Human Mage Cleric works.  ;->

You have no idea..... ;)
I'm on Tod's ftf games every weekend. Nne of our PC's will ever be the same.

Contest suggestion.

What is the most evil thing you have done to your players?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 07:34:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:34:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <200202230121.g1N1LiOH025470@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020223073640.XXVQ319.dorsey@link>

LOL, if only I'd been drinking something at the time you would have just
scored a keyboard kill.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 at 15:55:31 -0700, Bruce Johnson typed:
>Yeah, I ended up a neutral good half-elf bard fighter.
>
>So I guess the _real_ conclusion is that we're munchkins all!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:10:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] An Apology
In-Reply-To: <001c01c1bc42$09e74760$b6ddd63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000901c1bc41$95042ee0$2f7de40c@loki>


John, if Listmom, yourself, or anyone else unsubscribe you we would be
oh so much poorer.

BTW, I have no clue what you were apologizing for.

A quote of Mahatma Gandhi, the original context of which I am ignorant:
"Everything we do is futile, but we must do it anyway."



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:13:46 +0000
Subject: [TML] information, please: Bowman System
Message-ID: <F270ii3lDraH8kvLMxL0000548b@hotmail.com>

From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>

     "Sorry this didn't make it through the crash..." (snip)


Mr. Scarlett,

     Thank you for that super-sized chunk of information, sir!  You were 
very kind to take the time to post it to me.  Your description of the Rock's 
layout will prove very useful for yet another weird, wild, and woolly 
Whipsnadian wowzer, WOO-HOO!
     As for your inadvertant posting of an urban legend to the List, I 
wouldn't feel too bad if I were you.  Several folks used it as a starting 
point for several jokes concerning the x-boat system and the RoM.  Others 
mined it for campaign and adventure tidbits.  All in all it was a nice break 
from the February blahs that seem to have settled over our fractious and 
familial community.
     Besides, posting that urban legend was nothing when compared to the 
many outrages I've committed here during the last 12 months!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:30:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
References: <000001c1bc31$1fbfd6d0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <006601c1bc44$4ccd3740$8bc74fd1@expwncog>

From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
> What do you need drivers for?

A modem.

I went to Fry's Electronics and picked up a 56K/fax Winmodem for $18.

When I replace the drivers for one of my other modem, I'll return the new
one to Fry's for a refund.  Aside from the new one, I have 3 others (none of
which has drivers available for them), U.S. Robotics Sportster 56000 Voice
INT, U.S. Robotics 56K Winmodem INT and U.S. Robotics 33.6K Winmodem INT.

I also need drivers for a PCI Bridge, PCI Multimedia Video Device and a PCI
Universal Serial Bus and would like to update the drive for my (S3) display.

On the up side, I have a new BIOS (CMOS) and a 40 gig HDD.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:28:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:28:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1bc44$231289a0$a980f1cf@computer>

Hard science questions I have run into in my quest to create a starship
construction system:

In my layman's research the "fuel" of fission powerplants seems to be the
Uranium fuel rods and coolant (often normal water, hard water, or helium).
The Uranium in a typical plant seems to be replaced completely once every 3
or 4 years.  The coolant is super-heated by the fission reaction, the steam
turns a turbine which produces electricity (tell me if I'm wrong).  Is the
coolant an enclosed system or is it more likely used up in this process?  If
so, anyone have any numbers on how much coolant is expended during this
process?

In a hypothetical fussion plant, Deutrium could be considered the "fuel"
along with a coolant as in fission plants.  I can't find any information on
how much Deutrium may be used up in a Deutrium-Deutrium fission plant.

One last question on coolants.  Water, hard water, helium, and others are
currently used as coolant.  Is hydrogen a possibility?  Would there be any
problems with using hydrogen as a coolant or would water be more efficient
anyway?

KS_Lawdog
webbs@journey.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 08:56:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:56:50 +1300
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <B89BEC9B.27E9A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEPECLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C781022.29637.6988D5@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2002 at 12:39, Tod Glenn wrote:
> Should someone be keeping stats on this.  What does the TML look like as
> a group? I'm feeling in the minority.  I wonder if it was the wine and
> cheese. Does that make me evil? -- When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade
> is not our friend.

I answered beer and beef so it made me a dwarf for my pains. When I put 
wine and cheese while in the person of my PC Kali she got to be True 
Neutral (when she should be LG), so maybe it does.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:00:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3C76D055.C983DCC3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C781115.5381.6D3B83@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2002 at 15:59, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me a
> dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
> lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
> care, lol)

It is in D&D3, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:01:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:01:47 +0000
Subject: [TML] Episodes of Evil (was: Slightly Off Topic - DnD)
Message-ID: <F180fbvidc8CADAiKM10000792d@hotmail.com>

From: Mole <mole@solsec.org>

     "Contest suggestion: What is the most evil thing you have done to your 
players?"


Sir,

     What an intriguing topic!  Let's see...  I suppose I could come up with 
two answers, the thing I thought was most evil and the thing THEY thought 
was most evil.

My candidate for Most Evil - The PCs have succesfully completed a search and 
rescue operation deep in the Trojan Reach.  They quickly tracked down a 
wayward Darrian science party, drove off some Sword World types sniffing 
around, liberated the eggheads from a so-called planetoid "research 
facility", and are travelling back to the Marches sure in the belief that 
their star merc business is going to take off once news of their success 
gets bandied about.  Besides that, they'll be getting a lot money!  The news 
from the Marches seems a little tense though, the Zhos are rattling a saber 
or two.
     Then in some backwater system, headed for a gas giant with low tanks 
they are jumped by TOO MANY odd looking fighters and SDBs.  They have no 
option but surrender.  Their ship is escorted to a middling sized planetoid 
that proves to be a starship.  They're stuffed in low berths and wake up 
months later in the Islands Cluster as guests of the Esperanzan government.
     By the time they get home, the 5FW is over and no one cares about that 
long ago SAR mission.  They owed quite a bit in mortgage payments too...

The PCs candidate for Most Evil - The PCs purchase a software package and a 
bit of information from a known charecter at Grote's downport.  This fellow 
is a great computer tech, but has all the social skills of a cherrystone 
clam.  Skeezix bathes infrequently and without success.  He lives on 
take-away food and soda. His quarters are a stinking sty of spoiled food and 
soiled clothes.  He cannot keep a secret.  He has sudden mood swings.  He 
has a totally inappropriate crush on one of the PCs.  His work is good, but 
his work habits are abysmal.  He's infantile.  He needs minding.  He is 
abnormally clumsy, he's a host of other tics, quirks, and bad habits and the 
PCs LOVE him.  Go figure.
     The people who gave him the software package in the first place did so 
because no one would take seriously his story about how he earned it.  Now 
those same people are not so sure.  The PCs have been asking some of the 
right questions.  Skeezix must have told them something and/or the PCs must 
have believed him.  Skeezix mustn't be allowed to tell the PCs anything else 
or be interrogated by the PCs anymore.
     The PCs get a comm call from the downport gendarmes and are asked to 
come to Skeezix's quarters.  They were seen leaving there only hours ago.  
The gendarmes escort the PCs through the flotsam and jetsam of Skeezix's 
flat to the rarely used shower stall and throw open the door.  Skeezix is 
trussed up inside, nude and bled out.  His legs are taped together at the 
ankles and he's hanging by them from the shower nozzle.  His arms are taped 
together behind his back.  His throat was slit, but other marks on his body 
indicate knives and cigarette butts were used on him before he died.  The 
gendarmes were hoping springing Skeezix on the PCs like this may make them 
crack and trigger a confession.  Fat chance, the PCs aren't the perps.
     What the PCs are is PISSED.  They are actually angry, at me and at the 
scenario.  They take a break, discuss things I can't hear.  When they come 
back, they move through the scenario like avenging angels.  They roust 
nearly the entire downport, telling both gendarmes and bent folk to stuff 
it.  As GM, I've got to handle them breaking the fingers of the folks they 
want to talk to.  They find the real perps and almost don't uncover the real 
plot because they barely manage to leave enough people left alive to tell 
them what it was all about.
     After the session, I'm surprised they left ME alive.  They were 
extremely angry.  It wasn't the killing, it was WHO got killed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:02:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:02:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
Message-ID: <200202230902.BAA10264@molly.iii.com>

"The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com> writes:

>Hard science questions I have run into in my quest to create a starship
>construction system:
>
>In my layman's research the "fuel" of fission powerplants seems to be the
>Uranium fuel rods and coolant (often normal water, hard water, or helium).
>The Uranium in a typical plant seems to be replaced completely once every 3
>or 4 years.  The coolant is super-heated by the fission reaction, the steam
>turns a turbine which produces electricity (tell me if I'm wrong).  Is the
>coolant an enclosed system or is it more likely used up in this process?  If
>so, anyone have any numbers on how much coolant is expended during this
>process?

Most earthbased systems have some turnover, but a fully enclosed system
is possible.

>In a hypothetical fussion plant, Deutrium could be considered the "fuel"
>along with a coolant as in fission plants.  I can't find any information on
>how much Deutrium may be used up in a Deutrium-Deutrium fission plant.

Uninterestingly small amounts; one kilogram of deuterium has an energy 
release of somewhere around 10 megawatt-years.

>One last question on coolants.  Water, hard water, helium, and others are
>currently used as coolant.  Is hydrogen a possibility?  Would there be any
>problems with using hydrogen as a coolant or would water be more efficient
>anyway?

Hydrogen is usable as a coolant if 20K operating temperatures are for some
reason useful for you.  For reactors, water or even more exotic materials
such as liquid lithium are better choices.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:03:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:03:20 +1300
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222161758.009f4540@mindspring.com>
References: <B89C0BB3.27F21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C7811A8.12894.6F79B5@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2002 at 16:20, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:52 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >All the good and lawful types are a bane to be destroyed. Up Evil!,
> >Down good!  Any other dark one out there?
> 
> True Neutral Dwarf Fighter-Ranger.

That's exactly what I got when I answered for myself. Now while I have 
respect for your POV (usually) I can't see how in the hell we come out 
as the same. I'm figuring that liking beer & beef and crossbows did it 
for me. How about you?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:05:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:05:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <3C781022.29637.6988D5@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c1bc49$373b4430$2f7de40c@loki>

Rupert, my answer of beer and beef still allowed me an to be an elf. Try
again. Perhaps we should ask the site's owner for a peek at the code. I
see you all going round and round in a series of logical deductive moves
but we will be at it forever. Perhaps the rat bast**d has EVERYTHING as
randomostity.

Mahatma Gandhi, "Everything we do is futile, but we must do it anyway."

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:06:31 +1300
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222164433.009f8590@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3C781267.23115.72646E@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2002 at 16:45, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 03:59 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me
> >a dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
> >lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I
> >would care, lol)
> 
> In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the
> Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)

Also Barbarians may not be Lawful, nor may Bards (I just checked). 
Druids must have at least part of their alignment as Neutral.

However there are _no_ class restrictions based on race anymore. Troll 
Monk anyone?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:12:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:12:40 +1300
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20222.201800.0W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2002 at 20:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
> illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies. 

Who was/were the moron(s) responsible for this? How in the hell can you 
tell if something works or not without a control? Have they been shot 
yet? Taken to court for wrongful death or the like?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:24:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:24:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Episodes of Evil (was: Slightly Off Topic - DnD)
In-Reply-To: <F180fbvidc8CADAiKM10000792d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1bc4b$e1dd2460$2f7de40c@loki>

The SolSec infiltrator states, "Contest suggestion: What is the most
evil thing you have done to your players?"

In an effort to inject 'some' bit of 'real world' feeling into a TNE
game I placed my players into a position where no possible action was a
RIGHT(tm) one. Nothing they did would give them satisfaction. Piracy,
while they were passengers locked down by ships anti-piracy systems.

They had lots of choices, explored lots of angles, tried lots of gambits
and in the end arrived at the only possible survivable good was
survival.

The scenario I built was designed carefully for this outcome. It had
everything a good gaming session needs except satisfactory conclusion.

The players have remarked for years upon the nature of the problems they
faced, the solutions available to them and the helplessness of it all in
the end.


Was it evil? Yes. Was it successful? Yes.  Did we all get a chance to
evaluate life and choice and freedom? Yes.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 10:10:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:10:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
In-Reply-To: <006601c1bc44$4ccd3740$8bc74fd1@expwncog>
Message-ID: <000001c1bc52$492339b0$6401a8c0@goca>

Hmm...Ditch the Winmodem..if you ever go to Windows 2000 it will not
work right..Trust me on this..:)  As for the PCI drivers, you need a
motherboard CD for those.  Find out who made your motherboard and go to
their website and look it up.  If I remembered where my USR Sportster
56k modem drivers were I'd email them to you.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Barnabas
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 00:30
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Where has Jason been?

From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
> What do you need drivers for?

A modem.

I went to Fry's Electronics and picked up a 56K/fax Winmodem for $18.

When I replace the drivers for one of my other modem, I'll return the
new
one to Fry's for a refund.  Aside from the new one, I have 3 others
(none of
which has drivers available for them), U.S. Robotics Sportster 56000
Voice
INT, U.S. Robotics 56K Winmodem INT and U.S. Robotics 33.6K Winmodem
INT.

I also need drivers for a PCI Bridge, PCI Multimedia Video Device and a
PCI
Universal Serial Bus and would like to update the drive for my (S3)
display.

On the up side, I have a new BIOS (CMOS) and a 40 gig HDD.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 11:04:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:04:12 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
Message-ID: <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>

I kinda like the idea someone suggested recently about sending 'thanks for 
the "go message", the explosives are on there way, hope the new encryption 
software is working' to the various spammers who get through on the Digest, 
but have had a sudden, slightly worrying thought:

Given that someone, somewhere[1] will be scanning emails for certain words 
and phrases, how many of us here on the TML have files with one (or more) of 
the "Alphabet Soup" government agencies?

ObTrav:  You got all these ex-military types wandering around YTU and you 
*really* think Longbow[2] was to keep an eye on the core of the galaxy??  
Yeah, right.  And would you be interested in buying this 
only-very-slightly-used gravcar from me?

[1]Of course the British and American governments aren't collecting data via 
GCHQ (Cheltenham) and various Carnivore stations around the globe.  For 
Politicians have told us so, and Politicians are honourable men (and 
women)...
[2]Did Longbow appear in MT?  The first time I can definitely recall it is 
in 'Survival Margin' as a reason for Strephon being away from Core when 
Lucan got shooty.  I know it is mentioned in G:T as well, but did it ever 
appear anywhere else?



Smile.  Big Brother is watching you.  And you.  And you.  And... 8-)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 11:29:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 06:29:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
Message-ID: <174.407864e.29a8d737@aol.com>

In a message dated 23/02/02 01:39:48 GMT Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >>Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
> >>GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters 
> with
> >>average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
> >>opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).
> >
> >Take a quirk: finds plain people attractive. (-1)
> 
> I said average-looking, not plain. To put it another way (in other
> words, to make it plain what I mean ;-), I don't think average-looking
> people are plain.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

There is an interesting little experiment that can be done with this:

Rank your attractiveness on a scale of one to ten where one is repulsive and 
ten is god like.

Now rank the highest attractiveness of a person you think you could have a 
relationship with on the same scale.

Scroll down for possible result. Obviously I make no guarantees that this 
what you did.










The chances are you picked a number for yourself in the mid-range of the 
scale, 4, 5, or 6. You probably picked a number for a partner one or two 
ranks above your own.

Thus most people think of themselves as average but want to go out with 
people a bit more attractive than they are.
 
Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 11:25:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:25:26 -0000
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
References: <20020223072821.XXEN319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <011301c1bc5d$60914c80$6d7d893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Laning" <laning@wizard.net>


> I agree, the questionnaire has a heavy bias to producing rangers, and
> bards, too.  It has some other problems with the way the questions are
> designed.  But hey, this isn't exactly hard science we're working with,
> here, LOL.

I'd blame my ranger result on have a *strong* love of travel. My favourite
pair of boots have seen three continents, and I have hit five airports in
48 hours before. I have a love of bows too, but I said no to most of teh
outdoorsy questions.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 11:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:49:42 +1000
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
Message-ID: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>

>From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament: 

".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...." 

What is wrong with this picture?

The quote is from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1825000/video/_1828526_presser01_bush_vi.ram

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 12:28:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
Message-ID: <memo.93223@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

If I ever were to attempt a spot of terrorism, I would conceal my plans in 
an RPG scenario...

As soon as the semantic forest program picked out the 'key' words for 
terrorism, it would then hit mention of dice or characters and drop out.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 13:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:29:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
References: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3C779942.8F495688@mindspring.com>

That's my Bush! If the facts are too confusing, forget them! If my father in
law, a Bataan survivor,  had heard this he might have gone on a visit to Bush
himself

Alan Bradley wrote:

> >From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
> ".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
> one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
> alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>
> What is wrong with this picture?
>
> The quote is from:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1825000/video/_1828526_presser01_bush_vi.ram
>
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 13:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:48:09 -0600
Subject: [TML] Regimental Bands
In-Reply-To: <a05100301b89cd35d4112@[154.20.13.97]>
Message-ID: <3C774939.23836.21FC68@localhost>

I got lucky enough to win 5th row seats for a performance of the Red Star Red Army Chorus 
and its Cossack Dancers locally last night...and it set me to thinking

does the Imperium maintain demonstration units as such, and at what level...

these folks were incredible... although I never thought I would live to see the day I would hear a 
russian military chorus sing both God Bless America, and the Star Spangled Banner. it was 
neat... and even know all but 3 songs were in russian, the pageantry and the gusto made for a 
wonderful performance, and the one dance routine where the cossacks are crouched down to 
knee level and staying like that was just amazing... 

I walked out of the show and couldn't get Moscow Nights out of my head


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 13:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:22:56 PST
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
In-Reply-To: <006601c1bc44$4ccd3740$8bc74fd1@expwncog>
Message-ID: <20223.052256.4E3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
>> What do you need drivers for?
>
> A modem.
>
> I went to Fry's Electronics and picked up a 56K/fax Winmodem for $18.
>
> When I replace the drivers for one of my other modem, I'll return the new
> one to Fry's for a refund.  Aside from the new one, I have 3 others (none of
> which has drivers available for them), U.S. Robotics Sportster 56000 Voice
> INT, U.S. Robotics 56K Winmodem INT and U.S. Robotics 33.6K Winmodem INT.

Drivers for all of those should be up on the USR website.

> I also need drivers for a PCI Bridge, PCI Multimedia Video Device and a PCI
> Universal Serial Bus and would like to update the drive for my (S3) display.

Those should be on the CD for your motherboard, except for the video stuff
(unless it's on the motherboard). They are also chipset/motherboard
specific.

Now you know why I use external modems, and why I have *two* Windows
boxes in addition to the DOS and OS/2 boxes.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 13:21:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:21:13 PST
Subject: [TML] Where has Jason been?
In-Reply-To: <000601bbf935$cb1737e0$50617043@expwncog>
Message-ID: <20223.052113.4F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I just thought you'd like to know that your message was dated Jann 2,
1997. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 13:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:55:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202211346.HAA52176@nm1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <20223.055559.4V5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>ObTrav: A world where every negotiation is prefaced with therapy and
>>encounter group meetings so eveyone can be in the right space... and
>>*extremely* close personal interaction is considered to be part of
> the
>>therapy.
>
> "How do you do rishathra?"

When I was *much* younger (and more foolish), I wore a button that said
"Dirty Old Men need Rishathra too" to a Larry Niven book signing. Mr.
Niven was not amused.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:12:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091002.00b8aba0@192.168.0.1>

Oh come on...that Pacific War thing was just a glitch.  4 years out of a 
150.  A statistical anomaly.
Ya gotta look at the Big Picture!

It's not like he said, "Let's not let this turn into another Vietnamese 
38th Parallel."

At 09:49 PM 2/23/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>
>What is wrong with this picture?
>
>The quote is from:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1825000/video/_1828526_presser01_bush_vi.ram
>
>Alan Bradley
>abradley1@bigpond.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:25:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Gilson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:25:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <3C781267.23115.72646E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222164433.009f8590@mindspring.com>
 <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223082450.02de07f8@mail.mchsi.com>

At 10:06 PM 2/23/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>On 22 Feb 2002 at 16:45, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > At 03:59 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me
> > >a dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
> > >lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I
> > >would care, lol)
> >
> > In third edition, the only classes with alignment restrictions are the
> > Paladin (LG) and the monk (any L)
>
>Also Barbarians may not be Lawful, nor may Bards (I just checked).
>Druids must have at least part of their alignment as Neutral.
>
>However there are _no_ class restrictions based on race anymore. Troll
>Monk anyone?

Whats the link to this site. Just got back on the list after becoming 
@Homeless last
week.

Robert Gilson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:29:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:29:33 -0000
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
Message-ID: <001101c1bc77$0f776ea0$95f786d9@fabian>

In an attempt to distract ourselves from the burgeoning flamewar, can
anyone give me a reasonable formula that i can plug into excel that will
calculate teh volume of an irregular spheroid?

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:50:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Regimental Bands
Message-ID: <memo.94877@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3C774939.23836.21FC68@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.

I'm sure that the love of ceremonial and pagentry will survive into the 
far future...

Consider how popular such as the British 'Trooping the Colour' 
parade, military displays, and concerts such as the one Shadowcat was 
fortunate enough to enjoy are. Not to mention the attention paid to 
uniform and medals.

So I expect that we will still have such things as full dress uniforms, 
formal dining-in nights in officers' messes, ceremonial parades and 
displays.

Remember the novel Starship Troopers? As soon as the training regiment 
expresses an interest, they are allowed to form a band and supplied with 
high-tech instruments. Of course, they practise in their own time, still 
have to carry all the rest of their kit and don't get excused any duties - 
but they are actively encouraged to provide music for their fellows.

It's not too long a step to envisage proper ceremonial bands with fancy 
dress uniforms...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal - who's played a marching snare drum before now!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 06:58:24 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20223.065824.9K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 22 Feb 2002 at 20:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
>> illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies. 
>
> Who was/were the moron(s) responsible for this? How in the hell can you 
> tell if something works or not without a control? Have they been shot 
> yet? Taken to court for wrongful death or the like?

Congress. And you *can't* take a Congressman to court based on the laws
they did or did not pass.

They don't understand (and neither did the people who complained to
them) about how research works. All they saw was that people were being
denied something that might help.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 14:53:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 06:53:13 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <E16e2xn-0005uh-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20223.065313.5e2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Not to mention how the population might devolve, absent selection
>> pressures towards intelligence and attractiveness.  It might get so
>> bad that _no-one_ is well-formed, and that, upon removal of the
>> technical cure, the entire next generation would be congenital idiots.
>
> Not unless the entire population started off as congenital idiots long 
> before civilization evolved.  Evolution simply *can't* happen that 
> fast.  Also, minor genetic engineering is the easiest way to prevent 
> most such problems.  The people on such a world won't just have 
> such problems fixed, in most cases no one will *ever* have such 
> problems again.  This is likely to start happening in the First World 
> here within 20 years.  The advantage of various forms of genefixing 
> is that it is forever.     

Actually, that's the *problem*. Because the "bad" genes are frequently
only bad in a given environment. Eliminate them from the population and
then when an environmental change happens (or when you move to another
planet) those genes may turn out to be *necessary* for survival.

This is why eliminating recessives is generally a *bad* idea. It's more
difficult, but far safer, to screen the eggs and sperm to avoid
*pairing* "bad" recessives. 

That way, if it turns out that there are times/places when those genes
are *needed*, they still exist in the population.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Gilson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:20:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091002.00b8aba0@192.168.0.1>
References: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091738.02df9e40@mail.mchsi.com>

At 09:12 AM 2/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Oh come on...that Pacific War thing was just a glitch.  4 years out of a 
>150.  A statistical anomaly.
>Ya gotta look at the Big Picture!
>
>It's not like he said, "Let's not let this turn into another Vietnamese 
>38th Parallel."
>
>At 09:49 PM 2/23/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:

Actually my wife who really doesn't like Bush defended his statement. She 
said that
he was being diplomatic since its a be no no to mention WWII in Japan.

Robert Gilson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:53:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:53:41 -0000
Subject: [TML] Regimental Bands
In-Reply-To: <memo.94877@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEAJCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

The value of Ceremonial bands, display teams and other goodwill groups would
certainly exist in the third Imperium.  Their value as a subtle propoganda
tool, cover for espionage and general flag showing is so great one would be
insane to stop using them.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
First rule of tactical 'splosives, someone always complains about the length
of the fuse. - www.SchlockMercenary.com, 20 Jan 2002

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Megan Robertson
> Sent: 23 February 2002 14:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [TML] Regimental Bands
>
>
> In-Reply-To: <3C774939.23836.21FC68@localhost>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> I'm sure that the love of ceremonial and pagentry will survive into the
> far future...
>
> Consider how popular such as the British 'Trooping the Colour'
> parade, military displays, and concerts such as the one Shadowcat was
> fortunate enough to enjoy are. Not to mention the attention paid to
> uniform and medals.
>
> So I expect that we will still have such things as full dress uniforms,
> formal dining-in nights in officers' messes, ceremonial parades and
> displays.
>
> Remember the novel Starship Troopers? As soon as the training regiment
> expresses an interest, they are allowed to form a band and supplied with
> high-tech instruments. Of course, they practise in their own time, still
> have to carry all the rest of their kit and don't get excused any
> duties -
> but they are actively encouraged to provide music for their fellows.
>
> It's not too long a step to envisage proper ceremonial bands with fancy
> dress uniforms...
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal - who's played a marching snare drum before now!
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:24:36 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <174.407864e.29a8d737@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20223.072436.1u1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> There is an interesting little experiment that can be done with this:
>
> Rank your attractiveness on a scale of one to ten where one is repulsive and 
> ten is god like.
>
> Now rank the highest attractiveness of a person you think you could have a 
> relationship with on the same scale.
>
> Scroll down for possible result. Obviously I make no guarantees that this 
> what you did.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The chances are you picked a number for yourself in the mid-range of the 
> scale, 4, 5, or 6. You probably picked a number for a partner one or two 
> ranks above your own.
>
> Thus most people think of themselves as average but want to go out with 
> people a bit more attractive than they are.

sorry, wrong answer. You asked for the highest attractiveness we
thought we *could* go out with (ie the *lower* of "the highest we'd be
comfortable around" *or* "the highest we thought would take us")

You did not ask us which we *preferred* or "wanted".

Me, my appearance "preferences" amount to "not overly "skinny" (a
"prejudice" that surprised me when I first stumbled over it) and "not
'ugly'". 

To *me*, personality is a far more important criterion than appearance.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:15:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:15:32 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
In-Reply-To: <000901c1bc44$231289a0$a980f1cf@computer>
Message-ID: <20223.071532.2e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hard science questions I have run into in my quest to create a starship
> construction system:
>
> In my layman's research the "fuel" of fission powerplants seems to be
> the Uranium fuel rods and coolant (often normal water, hard water, or
> helium).  The Uranium in a typical plant seems to be replaced
> completely once every 3 or 4 years.

Depends on the plant design. And most of the replacement isn't because
the uranium or plutonium is used up. It's because the fission
byproducts are absorbing too many neutrons and interfering with the
operation of the reactor.

> The coolant is super-heated by the fission reaction, the steam turns
> a turbine which produces electricity (tell me if I'm wrong).  Is the
> coolant an enclosed system or is it more likely used up in this
> process?  If so, anyone have any numbers on how much coolant is
> expended during this process?

You missed a *critical* step.

The working fluid in the reactor is *sealed*. It leaves the reactor and
goes into a heatr exchanger where it is used to make steam that drives
the turbines.

This is necessary to avoid contaminating the steam with radioactive
materials.

> In a hypothetical fussion plant, Deutrium could be considered the
> "fuel" along with a coolant as in fission plants.  I can't find any
> information on how much Deutrium may be used up in a
> Deutrium-Deutrium fission plant.

Several fusion reactor designs don't use a steam cycle at all. They use
MHD or other techniques to "directly" generate electricity from the
plasma in the reactor.

> One last question on coolants.  Water, hard water, helium, and others are
> currently used as coolant.

That's "heavy water" not "hard water", and it's used as a *moderator*.
The fact that it also serves as a coolant isn't relevant.

> Is hydrogen a possibility?  Would there be any problems with using
> hydrogen as a coolant or would water be more efficient anyway?

The big problem with dealing with hot hydrogen is that it'll *leak*
thru places nothing else will. Worse, it tends to get absorbed inot
metals, making them brittle.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:47:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
In-Reply-To: <3C7811A8.12894.6F79B5@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222161758.009f4540@mindspring.com>
 <B89C0BB3.27F21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223074626.009e9af0@mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 2/23/02 +1300, you wrote:
> > True Neutral Dwarf Fighter-Ranger.
>
>That's exactly what I got when I answered for myself. Now while I have
>respect for your POV (usually) I can't see how in the hell we come out
>as the same. I'm figuring that liking beer & beef and crossbows did it
>for me. How about you?

Could be.  I'd prefer to see just a class generator, and have ignore race 
and alignment.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:00:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:00:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
In-Reply-To: <003401c1bc19$7937f840$255d8690@computer>
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075839.009f7760@mindspring.com>

At 01:11 PM 2/23/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Actually, I think Australia is doing very well, with gold medals in "Sheer
>Dumb Luck", and "Falling Over Gracefully".

A, ya gotta love short-track..

Picture the Imperial equivalent.. short track grav board races!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:51:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:51:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20222.201800.0W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223074907.009ee660@mindspring.com>

At 08:18 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
>illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies.
>
>The end result was that by making it harder to do double blind studies,
>several drugs and treatments were in use for a decade or more before
>enough evidence accumulated to show that they didn't work any better
>than older, cheaper treatments and in some cases, didn't work as *well*.

This is just don't get.  I took part in three blind tests, one anti-nausea 
drug, and a couple designed to help regulate my production of blood 
cells.  I had to sign more paperwork to take part than I did to have large 
slabs of organ removed!  I could have declined to take part (I did decline 
one test because it directly affected my chemotherapy) and anybody who does 
take part goes in with eyes wide open.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

              __
             )o (--o
             """"===--(
            |::|:\             EXTERMINATE!
            |::|::\
            ====        


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 15:57:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:57:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 2/23/02 +1000, you wrote:
> From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>
>What is wrong with this picture?

You want the list?  Ignore that little unpleasantness during the 40s, he 
seems to have forgotten that this "alliance" started by US warships sailing 
into Edo bay and forcing the Japanese to open their markets at 
gunpoint!  To be honest, there wasn't much of an alliance until we helped 
rebuild them after WWII.

This man is in charge of our foreign policy?  *shudder*


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"CALIFORNIA, a large country of the West Indies...
It is uncertain whether it be a peninsula or an
island."
  -- Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1st Edition (1771)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:05:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:05:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <B89C8591.2512%mole@solsec.org>
References: <20020223072821.XXEN319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223080305.009eed90@mindspring.com>

At 11:32 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>What is the most evil thing you have done to your players?

Put them in a situation where they thought they were saving the Marches... 
only to find out they had blown a five year counter-intelligence op run by 
Naval Intelligence.  INI was *not* pleased with them.  At all.  Having a 
Vice Admiral who also happens to have a subsector duke as a cousin pissed 
at you makes your life interesting, in the Chinese sense.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:27:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091738.02df9e40@mail.mchsi.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091002.00b8aba0@192.168.0.1>
 <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223082455.009e3b20@mindspring.com>

At 09:20 AM 2/23/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Actually my wife who really doesn't like Bush defended his statement. She 
>said that
>he was being diplomatic since its a be no no to mention WWII in Japan.

Tough.  He coukld have said "the past fifty years" and not mentioned what 
came before.

ObTrav: What do some of the areas that the Imperium has warred with think 
about their past?  Do some of the areas that were pacified have a Rebel 
yell mentality? "Illesh shall rise again!"  Is it considered impolite to 
mention the wars?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:36:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:36:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 10:12:40PM +1300
References: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20222.201800.0W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020223093600.A18115@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 10:12:40PM +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
> > illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies.
> 
> Who was/were the moron(s) responsible for this?  How in the hell can
> you tell if something works or not without a control?  Have they
> been shot yet?  Taken to court for wrongful death or the like?

No doubt the relatives of someone who'd been on a placebo and died
complained loudly about the fact.  Never mind that he would've agreed
to the chance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:43:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
In-Reply-To: <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>; from jeffrowse@hotmail.com on Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:04:12AM +0000
References: <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020223094306.B18115@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:04:12AM +0000, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
> Given that someone, somewhere[1] will be scanning emails for certain words 
> and phrases, how many of us here on the TML have files with one (or more) of 
> the "Alphabet Soup" government agencies?

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/12/20/211923/84

Be Afraid.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:48:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:48:17 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <174.407864e.29a8d737@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 06:29:59AM -0500
References: <174.407864e.29a8d737@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020223094817.C18115@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 06:29:59AM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rank your attractiveness on a scale of one to ten where one is repulsive and 
> ten is god like.
> 
> Now rank the highest attractiveness of a person you think you could have a 
> relationship with on the same scale.
> 
> Scroll down for possible result. Obviously I make no guarantees that this 
> what you did.
> 
> The chances are you picked a number for yourself in the mid-range of the 
> scale, 4, 5, or 6. You probably picked a number for a partner one or two 
> ranks above your own.
> 
> Thus most people think of themselves as average but want to go out with 
> people a bit more attractive than they are.

I figure that it's a result of the phrasing: rank the _highest_
attractiveness of a person you think you could have a relationship
with.  If I evaluate myself as roughly average, then I probably won't
stand much chance with someone much more attractive than I am.
However, I could probably win a few extra levels with my winning
personality--just like a girl not quite up to my personal standards of
beauty can still catch my attention.

Now, if you asked folks to rate themselves and what they _wanted_,
you'd probably get 5s and 10s.  And if you asked 'em what they would
probably get, you'd get 5s and 5s, I think.  Maybe 5s and 6s.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:49:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:49:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202230844310.7472-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 22 Feb 2002 at 20:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
> > illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies. 
> 
> Who was/were the moron(s) responsible for this? How in the hell can you 
> tell if something works or not without a control? Have they been shot 
> yet? Taken to court for wrongful death or the like?
> 
Pls. calm down.

I work with medical researchers.  There are serious ethical issues
involved with giving someone who has AIDS or advanced cancer or in some
other respect will die without treatment a placebo, because in that case,
we are basically denying treatment, aren't we?  Sometimes people with
advanced diseases get to enter these trials on "compassionate use" because
it is the only chance they have to survive.

You can't give someone who is recovering from a transplant NO
anti-rejection drugs, or give someone with advanced HIV disease NO
antivirals.  Placebo trials are still used for many other kinds of drugs.

For other kinds of trials, you can compare one drug regimen to another.
In that case, the person is still being treated, just not with your study
drug.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:52:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:52:18 -0700
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <3C779942.8F495688@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 08:29:39AM -0500
References: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer> <3C779942.8F495688@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020223095218.E18115@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 08:29:39AM -0500, alan spik wrote:
>
> That's my Bush!  If the facts are too confusing, forget them!

It's his speechwriter.  Politicians don't, I think, typically read
their speeches much.  Make sure they say the correct platitudes, make
sure they push their political agenda--but check for correctness?  I
doubt it.  Just take a look at the sort of gaffes uttered by Carter,
Reagan, Bush, Quayle, Clinton & Gore: they all do it.

> If my father in law, a Bataan survivor, had heard this he might have
> gone on a visit to Bush himself

Tell me about it.  My grandfather wept when we left Iwo Jima (where
his brother was slain).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly uses or intends to
use armed force to prevent assault, rape, murder, or other attack upon
himself or another."
                 --Illinois Revised Statutes, Chapter 38, Paragraph 24

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 16:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:59:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Regimental Bands
In-Reply-To: <3C774939.23836.21FC68@localhost>
References: <a05100301b89cd35d4112@[154.20.13.97]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223084614.009f70e0@mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 2/23/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I got lucky enough to win 5th row seats for a performance of the Red Star 
>Red Army Chorus
>and its Cossack Dancers locally last night...and it set me to thinking

Have I mentioned recently that I hate you?

>does the Imperium maintain demonstration units as such, and at what level...

Well, there is the Imperial Guard, of course.  And I mention that most 
brigades manintain a demostration units in GF.  I would imagine that you 
would have any number of regimental, division, and Unified Army bands and 
precision drill teams.

The Marines have their pipes and drums, along with the Honor Guard units.

There are probably similar units for the Navy.

The IISS might have a band, but I'm willing to bet it resembles the 
Stanford University Band

http://www.stanford.edu/group/lsjumb/

>these folks were incredible... although I never thought I would live to 
>see the day I would hear a
>russian military chorus sing both God Bless America, and the Star Spangled 
>Banner. it was
>neat... and even know all but 3 songs were in russian, the pageantry and 
>the gusto made for a
>wonderful performance, and the one dance routine where the cossacks are 
>crouched down to
>knee level and staying like that was just amazing...
>
>I walked out of the show and couldn't get Moscow Nights out of my head

Did they play "Sweet Home, Alabama"?  :)


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:15:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <20223.072436.1u1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202230858450.7472-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Me, my appearance "preferences" amount to "not overly "skinny" (a
> "prejudice" that surprised me when I first stumbled over it) and "not
> 'ugly'". 
> 
> To *me*, personality is a far more important criterion than appearance.

Carriage and body language are far more important to me than appearance
alone; personality isn't something I feel I can judge until I have known a
person for a very long time.  (Or perhaps I mean "character".  I have been
very pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised by people in this area; I
really don't believe I know someone till they've been around for a while.
Due to past experience.)

I am absolutely not sexually attracted to people who do not have a
significant sense of pride in themselves.  Some of my lovers have been
rather unattractive by objective aesthetic standards, but most people
(including me) thought they were good-looking because they took care of
themselves and thought about the way they put themselves together. (I
mean, yeah... I find Tyr Anasazi devastating, but I also find Miles
Vorkosigan devastating.  I would love to have a schemer like that for a
partner as long as he understood that we WERE partners and I was going to
be into it up to my neck with him.  Even though for all I know in RL we
would be pheromonally incompatible.)

Pheromones are the wild card.  That's why I don't do much online dating
these days.  Between pheromones and body language I can absolutely not
tell if I will want someone "that way" before I meet them in RL.  My
second serious lover was nicknamed Taz, Orc, or Imp by most of his
friends (and I usually don't go for hairy guys), but he smelled like
heaven and he had an ego big enough to live with mine.  When I've broken
the "must have an ego from hell" rule in picking my partners, I've
invariably ended up in a relationship that didn't work because the other
person was afraid of me and couldn't stand up to me.  As most of you have
probably noticed, I know exactly what I want (or at least I think I do)
and I am not in the least afraid to say so, sometimes loudly.  People who
think that it would be "un-nice", or rude, or just not their place to ask
for and even insist on things tend to end up resenting me.

There are some very physically attractive people who don't even rate as
sexual beings on my scale, either because they seem "gooey" (all over the
place/needy/the kind of person who would work themselves up to love after
3 dates and never let you breathe again), or asexual, or overly
domineering.  

(I think this is why I tend to like people who seem like they don't give a
shit.  They're not all over you in a way that I find scary; they don't
give you the impression of either "You LIKE me?  Wow, nobody likes me, I'm
gonna be your best friend, want some tea, wanna talk, what are we gonna
watch on TV, do you need me to wipe your butt when you go to the loo?" or
"You!  Yes, you!  You are going to BE MY WOMAN!  Lemme put my arm around
you, I will stand between you and all other males even if you are just
talking to them about Traveller, now it's time for US to go to dinner,
WE'RE having Chinese, of course you want to get married and have my
babies, oh...did you have an opinion or something?")

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:27:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:27:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] First In gurus wanted
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223092620.00a040a0@mindspring.com>

I need two or three people who are good with the planetary design sequences 
from _GT: First In_ and can work with a deadline to contact me off-list.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:30:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223082455.009e3b20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202230925490.7472-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 09:20 AM 2/23/02 -0600, you wrote:
> >Actually my wife who really doesn't like Bush defended his statement. She 
> >said that
> >he was being diplomatic since its a be no no to mention WWII in Japan.
> 
> Tough.  He coukld have said "the past fifty years" and not mentioned what 
> came before.
> 
My Japanese teacher, who is Japanese, assigned us to write a paper in
Japanese about the economic and historical relationship between America
and Japan.  I'd rather write about ANYTHING else.  Yeesh.  And she gave us
a week to do it in.

This isn't a research exercise or a grammar exercise, this is a tact and
diplomacy exercise.  ARGH.  And with kanji.  If I can do this I can do
anything.

> ObTrav: What do some of the areas that the Imperium has warred with think 
> about their past?  Do some of the areas that were pacified have a Rebel 
> yell mentality? "Illesh shall rise again!"  Is it considered impolite to 
> mention the wars?

I would think it would depend upon the reasons for the wars and the way
the outcome went.  The Japanese love America, for the most part (there are
of course some very vocal exceptions, and I've met a few).

If there are still hard feelings, there will still be problems..

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:30:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:30:57 +0000
Subject: [TML] OT: Stupidity.
Message-ID: <F1169NlHJcNPpyOYIVO0000eb15@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:

".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."

     What is wrong with this picture?


Mr. Bradley,

     Currently, the smart (maybe hopeful) money is on Bush the Lesser 
suffering from some sort of dyslexia.  His clutch of speech writers seem to 
be producing Hemingway-like speeches for him; short, simple, declarative 
sentences with little run on and nothing too flowery.  The question as to 
whether this is due to a speech impediment, or a lack of mental nimbleness, 
is best left up to the observer.
     It would be very interesting to compare the written text of the speech 
to a transcript of what Bush actually uttered.  He could have simply garbled 
a written "half a century" into a verbal "century and a half".  Then again, 
he could simply be a boob.
     On the other side of the coin, the downside of verbal dexterity is that 
it gives one a superb ability to lie both effortlessly and very effectively. 
  Eight years of watching the Horny Hillbilly drove that fact home for me.  
Bush the Lesser speaks so poorly in public that he can hardly get his point 
across, let alone lie effectively about it.
     Isn't the American media monopoly grand?  Each time one of our wretched 
politicians makes a gaffe or blunder, it's news worldwide.  Must be nice for 
all the equally wretched pols in far-away lands, they don't have to worry 
about any real publicity at all.


ObTrav - Without an effective interstellar mass media or the 57th century 
equivalent of the First Ammendment, the Third Imperium has it very easy 
indeed.
     They can run detainee camps in the Australian style, i.e refugees 
drinking drain cleaner and sewing their childrens' mouths shut as part of 
hunger strikes, without any fear of any substantial adverse publicity as 
opposed to being wildly berated for running detainee camps in the American 
style, i.e. using proper security methods and handling techniques while 
dealing with self-confessed suicidal/homical maniacs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:41:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:41:25 EST
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
Message-ID: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com>

Could someone supply me with a rundown of character generation programs -- 
give me a rough idea of how many, where they are, shareware, freeware, 
tableware, bee-ware, etc?

Thanks . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:45:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:45:39 -0700
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 07:57:39AM -0800
References: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020223104539.F18115@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 07:57:39AM -0800, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> You want the list?  Ignore that little unpleasantness during the 40s, he 
> seems to have forgotten that this "alliance" started by US warships sailing 
> into Edo bay and forcing the Japanese to open their markets at 
> gunpoint!  To be honest, there wasn't much of an alliance until we helped 
> rebuild them after WWII.

Recall that his father was shot down by the same bunch.  Either his
speechwriter screwed up or his protocol officers won't let him refer
to history.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What is our aim?  Victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all
terror; Victory how ever long and hard the road may be.
                               --Sir Winston Churchill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 02:19:02 +0800
Subject: [TML] Artificial Selection
In-Reply-To: <20222.201800.0W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E16eOtR-0007LQ-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020224021034.02efa320@localhost>

Hi all!

Reading this debate, I keep thinking of Greg Bear's novel /Slant/.  Has 
anyone else here read it?  It has lots of great ideas about a future where 
selection and treatment tend to smooth out any evolutionary wrinkles.  I 
agree with his conclusion, which, though a bit pat, is that such selection 
will make the species weak in the long run.  Bipolar disorders, I think, 
have a certain coincidence with 'genius' (to the extent that such can be 
said to exist).  Depression, too, to some extent.  Making everyone mentally 
well-adjusted all the time will probably simultaneously reduce the 
vitality  and creativity of humanity, though of course making many 
individuals a lot happier.

Hmm...  Perhaps, in the future, society will have a professional caste of 
nutcases?  We now have a professional caste of people trained to kill, 
perhaps in the future there will be a group given social dispensation to be 
creatively unhinged.

The real question, I think, is whether or not AI will ever exist, and 
whether it will be able to be creative.  If creativity can ever be designed 
into computers, we may decide that it's less risky to push our creativity 
off onto computers instead of humans.  Wow, a future where the computers 
are more creative that the humans.

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 18:10:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:10:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
Message-ID: <F1347QKyhZTbvYY3PWm00005a97@hotmail.com>

From: "The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com>

     "In my layman's research the "fuel" of fission powerplants..."


Sir,

     I can help with the fission parts of your question.  The fusion parts 
will need someone who really knows what they're talking about; Mr. Erickson 
perhaps?

     "Uranium fuel rods..."

     Or plutonium.  Or even thorium, IIRC.
     Fuel bundles (a better word than rods) will not be interchangeable 
between different reactor designs or even within a reactor itself.  Fuel 
bundles are carefully designed and constructed "sandwiches" of "fuel", 
"poisons", and "cladding" stacked for hundreds of layers.  The mixture of 
these three ingredients is carefully balanced to control the amount and type 
of neutrons in the exact location that particular fuel bundle is in within 
that particular reactor.

     "...and coolant (often normal water, hard water, or helium)."

     Heavy, not hard, water.  Helium is used in a lot of research reactors.  
I don't know of any power reactors that use it.  Handling coolant is hard 
enough without using a high temperature gas.

     "The Uranium in a typical plant seems to be replaced completely once 
every 3 or 4 years."

     Most of the uranium isn't "used" at all.  Instead, "poisons", decay 
products that absorb neutrons more easily than the fuel, build up to a point 
at which they interfere with maintaining the reaction at the levels required 
for power production.  A typical refueling cycle for US PWR reactor is 18 
months.  At that time, only some of the fuel bundles will be replaced.  Over 
4-6 years, all the bundles may be replaced, but never all at once.

     "The coolant is super-heated by the fission reaction, the steam
turns a turbine which produces electricity (tell me if I'm wrong).  Is the 
coolant an enclosed system or is it more likely used up in this process?  If 
so, anyone have any numbers on how much coolant is expended during this 
process?"

     Only in a certain type of power reactor, specifically the boiling water 
(BWR) type.  These types are a minority of power reactors world-wide for 
reasons I'll go into later.
     Most Western reactors are the pressurized water (PWR) type.  In this 
reactor, a pressurized loop of coolant runs through the reactor and then 
through a heat exchanger.  The coolant never boils and passes it's "heat" 
along to a completely steam loop via the heat exchanger or steam generator.  
The steam loop runs the turbines.
     This stype reactor provides a nice barrier against potential 
radioactive contamination.  The fluid that comes in contact with the fuel 
bundles can be kept within a certain area and monitored much more easily.
     One drawback of PWr design is that superheated steam cannnot be 
created.  PWR turbines must have many huge moisture seperators installed 
between the different turbine stages because of this.
     The BWR reactor does run superheated steam produced in the reactor 
through the turbines, thus "crapping up" the plant's entire steam cycle; 
turbines, condensers, feed pumps, air ejectors, etc.  A BWR is easier to 
build and operate, but much harder to keep "clean" and decommission.  Pay up 
front or pay in the end.

     "One last question on coolants.  Water, hard water, helium, and others 
are currently used as coolant.  Is hydrogen a possibility?  Would there be 
any problems with using hydrogen as a coolant or would water be more 
efficient anyway?"

     Heavy, not hard, water.  Water has been the Western coolant of choice 
for many reasons.  In a reactor it can act as a coolant, a reflector, and a 
moderator.  Those last two jobs are important factors when controlling 
neutrons within a reactor.  Also, thanks to centuries of dealing with 
conventional steam plants, most of the problems with handling high 
temperature/high pressure water have already been solved.  There have been 
other choices for coolants used however.
     The "Seawolf", the USN's 2nd nuc sub, originally sported a sodium 
cooled reactor.  Other liquid metals have been used.  As I mentioned 
previously, I've heard of helium cooled reactors but only in very low 
powered research applications.  Those reactors are tiny affairs that require 
an outside neutron source to maintain their reaction rate.
     The use of hydrogen as a coolant raises all sorts of nasty questions 
for our current level of technology.  Leaving aside hydrogen's poor 
thermodynamic charecteristics, hydrogen loves to "seep" into and through 
other materials.  One problem with fission reactors is the presence of free 
hydrogen in the cooolant (water disassociates under a neutron flux).  If 
left unchecked, this hydrogen can migrate into the surounding metals and 
severely weaken them.  A great deal of effort is taken to monitor and 
maintain certain chemical levels within a reactor's coolant to absorb this 
free hydrogen before it can do any harm.
     In the OTU, hydrogen seems to be handled with ease.  Spacecraft and 
starships require metric tonnes of the stuff.  Backwater ports staffed by 
the 57th century version of illiterate grease monkeys routinely pump and 
purify the stuff.  It's YTU, so if you say hydrogen can be or is used as a 
coolant, it is.
     Hope all this blather helped.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 18:27:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:27:42 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [TML] OT: Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <F1169NlHJcNPpyOYIVO0000eb15@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0202231925110.14279-100000@acubens.uio.no>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>ObTrav - Without an effective interstellar mass media or the 57th century
>equivalent of the First Ammendment, the Third Imperium has it very easy
>indeed.
>     They can run detainee camps in the Australian style, i.e refugees
>drinking drain cleaner and sewing their childrens' mouths shut as part of
>hunger strikes, without any fear of any substantial adverse publicity as
>opposed to being wildly berated for running detainee camps in the American
>style, i.e. using proper security methods and handling techniques while
>dealing with self-confessed suicidal/homical maniacs.

That is why I always like to think of the Imperium as the Empire from
Star Wars. We do what we want, where we want it and whenever we feel
like it. The battledressed marines are just like the Stormtrooper,
just a hell of a lot more competent :-) IMTU the Imperum is feared
and detested by morst member worlds.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:09:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <20020223104539.F18115@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>
 <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223140727.01bd63a0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:45 AM 2/23/2002 -0700, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 07:57:39AM -0800, Douglas Berry wrote:
> > You want the list?  Ignore that little unpleasantness during the 40s, he
> > seems to have forgotten that this "alliance" started by US warships 
> sailing
> > into Edo bay and forcing the Japanese to open their markets at
> > gunpoint!  To be honest, there wasn't much of an alliance until we helped
> > rebuild them after WWII.
>Recall that his father was shot down by the same bunch.  Either his
>speechwriter screwed up or his protocol officers won't let him refer
>to history.

Since the speech was given in Japan, Mr. Uhl may have a very, very good point.
The Japanese have an entirely different view of that conflict than the rest 
of the world,
and don't like to be told otherwise (as Ms. Morgan pointed out).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 19:31:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:31:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT: Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <F1169NlHJcNPpyOYIVO0000eb15@hotmail.com>
References: <F1169NlHJcNPpyOYIVO0000eb15@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb89d9c806366@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:30 PM +0000 2/23/02, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>     Currently, the smart (maybe hopeful) money is on Bush the Lesser 
>suffering from some sort of dyslexia.  His clutch of speech writers 
>seem to be producing Hemingway-like speeches for him; short, simple, 
>declarative sentences with little run on and nothing too flowery. 
>The question as to whether this is due to a speech impediment, or a 
>lack of mental nimbleness, is best left up to the observer.

Every politician says (and does) some mighty dumb things.  All Gore 
is quoted as making the statement that (I don't have it word for 
word) "If we don't suceed we run the risk of failure" (how would we 
have realized that without being told?) and (while showing how in 
tune with the environment he was) getting lost in the woods.

Unfortunately for politicians that get a reputation for this sort, 
every mistake they make gets trumpeted in the press, which increases 
the reputation and increases the number of people looking for 
mistakes, which increases the number they find, etc.

What concerns me is that, after Reagan, we seem to judge presidents 
by how glib they are when speaking in public.  This doesn't seem to 
be a good criterion to me.  Especially since I think I'm justified in 
thinking that I'm an intelligent and capable person (Ph. D. from MIT, 
etc.) and I know I make verbal gaffs all the time without it meaning 
that I don't understand the issues and having seen how some can use 
them to distract the debate.  (But then I think Carter and Bush Sr. 
were better presidents than either Reagan or Clinton).
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 19:35:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:35:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
References: <c1.1c4de7ca.29a8619e@aol.com> <3C77365C.4070305@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <012901c1bca1$374c7a40$6401a8c0@insightbb.com>

Chaotic Neutral Elf Bard Ranger

The algorithm is flawed.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 17:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:50:59 +0100
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020223185059.77fb4f6a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> "How many Marines does it take to change a light-bulb?"

Five. One to change the bulb and four to lay down covering fire in every
compass direction.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 20:16:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:16:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT: Stupidity.
References: <F1169NlHJcNPpyOYIVO0000eb15@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C77F893.B1767576@visi.com>

>      It would be very interesting to compare the written text of the speech
> to a transcript of what Bush actually uttered.  He could have simply garbled
> a written "half a century" into a verbal "century and a half".  
There is an 'official' version which has the phrasing
exactly like this.  Sorry, don't have the link handy,
I'm sure it could be found somewhere on whitehouse.gov.
Orwellian comments aside, I applied the axiom about
mallace and stupidity/ignorance.  Which leads to.....

> Then again,
> he could simply be a boob.
Comments about this and the other snipped stuff are
probably best left unsaid here.

-- 
Mark

"The revolution will not be televised"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 20:27:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:27:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
References: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C77FB3B.E9BD384C@visi.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Could someone supply me with a rundown of character generation programs --
> give me a rough idea of how many, where they are, shareware, freeware,
> tableware, bee-ware, etc?
> 
Well if this mess (http://www.visi.com/~markn/) every 
gets updated it will probably include an Open Source 
one.  And another pie-in-the-sky inclusion would be 
some ff&s stuff.

However, the aforementioned page will probably be 
going away in the next month or so (email stays,
though).  Anyone have a few megs they can dedicate
for this?

-- 
Mark

Socialism is man exploiting man.
Capitalism is the opposite of Socialism.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 20:47:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:47:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] Evil GMs
Message-ID: <B89D3FCA.28290%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Too much Play By Email.

Interview with an 'Evil' GM

The room is comfortable.  Dark wood panelling on the walls. Rich carpet. A
few tasteful paintings.  A large bookshelf stuffed haphazardly with with
boxes, books, with Titles like 'First In', 'Battle Rider', 'Traveller'.  All
are worn, but well cared for.  Next to the book shelf, a comfortable,
overstuffed leather chair.  It is occupied.

The light falls so that the face is in shadow.  The body is sheathed in a
dark suit of impeccable cut, but showing some age.  The legs are crossed
comfortably.

A carefully manicured had reaches for a gold colored cigarette case,
extracts an elegant cigarette, like it.  The face is dimly illuminated as
the figure draws from the cigarette, the red glow like the eye of a demon.
The face is pleasant, but careworn.  The evidence of having seen too much
evident in the distant look.

A stream of smoke as the figure exhales.  The hint of a sigh. A voice,
cultured, urbane.  But tired.

"There is no evil."
"There is no good"

"There is only point of view...matter of opinion. Desperation and strength
of conviction. The game is not about evens, but rather it is about the
character.  How events shape and change their lives, their perceptions."

The figure picks up a snifter, swirls the contents about. Stares absently
into the glass at the pale amber liquid.  He takes a sip, then carefully
places the glass on the edge of a shelf.

"Picture a long campaign.  A character.  We'll call him 'Mikie'. He's a
young man from the streets, something of a minor thief.  No family, few
friends. Until he meets a girl.  Over the course of months, they fall in
love, eventually marry. He becomes part of the girl's family.  He achieves
everything he has ever wanted.  He is happy.

Now this Mikie fall under the hand, the spell of a man called Blaelok.  Over
the course of time, he comes to find out this Blaelok is not what he
appeared to be.  He is an agent of SolSec.  He is here to further the goals
of a secret cabal within that agencies highest rank.  The project requires
the most extreme measure.  No cost is too high. Innocent life is expendable.
Blaelok's conviction are of the highest order.

Mikie discovers this plan.  His conviction are weaker.  He does not
understand the necessities.  He fears Blaelok's dedication. He works to halt
the plan.  At last, the ultimate is required and Blaelok is dead. But the
cost is high.  Mikie loses his young wife, the victim of most brutal murder

The cabal cannot allow their projects to be interfered with.  Necessity
requires a warning to those who would get in the way of vision.  They are
patient.  They wait for the right time.  The time of the funeral of Mikie's
young wife.

Mikie is devastated. His wife has been with him almost a year.  Sometimes
fellow adventurer.  Constant companion.  Here family tries to offer solace.
He is one of them. he finds some peace, but he still suffers. They strike.

Mikie receives the word, goes to the scene. The house of his only 'family'.
It is now a smoking ruin.  The forensic evidence:  The parents shot in front
of their children.  The children burned alive.  They have left their calling
card.

In the cemetery, not far away.  A young woman recently entombed now hangs
from a tree by a rope around her neck.  She is naked. Carved into her chest
with some sharp implement the words "Oderint Dum Metuant". Let them hate, so
long as they fear. It is only the beginning of hell for Mikie.  A series of
events that leave him wrecked, a patient in a metal institution".

The figure takes another drink from his snifter, looks at the interviewer.
"your players must feel. The events must make their mark upon them."

The figure tips back the snifter, finishes his drink.  He looks into the
eyes of the interviewer.  They are dead, uncaring eyes.  Cruel eyes.

"The best part is, they always come back for more."  He winks at the
interviewer, then shows him to the door.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 21:33:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:33:48 -0800
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
Message-ID: <20020223.133350.-148437.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


 "How many Sailor's does it take to change a light-bulb?"

None, they let the Marines do their dirty work.



We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:46:03 +1300
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20223.065824.9K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3C7813D8.22281.7808CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C78C46B.14724.362392@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2002 at 6:58, Leonard Erickson wrote:
 
> Congress. And you *can't* take a Congressman to court based on the laws
> they did or did not pass.

Can you take the government to court though?

> They don't understand (and neither did the people who complained to
> them) about how research works. All they saw was that people were being
> denied something that might help.

I figured that - my post was mainly an expression of stunned amazement.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 21:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:49:59 +1100
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091738.02df9e40@mail.mchsi.com>
References: <001e01c1bc60$33bd2280$ea5d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091002.00b8aba0@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091738.02df9e40@mail.mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <20020224084959.A6754@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Gilson wrote:
> Actually my wife who really doesn't like Bush defended his
> statement. She said that he was being diplomatic since its a be no
> no to mention WWII in Japan.

Besides, "a century and a half" might mean "this century and half of
last".  If you look at it crosswise.  And be a moron.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 22:47:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:47:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <001101c1bc77$0f776ea0$95f786d9@fabian>
References: <001101c1bc77$0f776ea0$95f786d9@fabian>
Message-ID: <20020224094701.B6754@freeman.little-possums.net>

Fabian wrote:
> In an attempt to distract ourselves from the burgeoning flamewar,
> can anyone give me a reasonable formula that i can plug into excel
> that will calculate teh volume of an irregular spheroid?

Sure - about 0.5*(diameter)^3, where the diameter is some sort of
"average" between the shortest and longest diameters.

If you want something more precise, I'd need to know more about the
irregularities.


Surface area could be anything from about 5*(volume)^(2/3) upward,
increasing with the amount of departure from a spherical surface.
e.g. a cube has 6*volume^(2/3), a 10:1 rod has 8.3*volume^(2/3), a
very bumpy (but not fractal) spheroidal blob shape might have a factor
of about 8 to 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 23:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:32:52 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202240927570.23922-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Could someone supply me with a rundown of character generation programs --
> give me a rough idea of how many, where they are, shareware, freeware,
> tableware, bee-ware, etc?
>
> Thanks . . .
>
> LKW

 I can only help you with the Commodore 64/128 line. To that end the first
part is that they are all freeware, and will be in the Commodore Scene
from Leeds U.K. for whom I write.

 The ones I have came from Q-Link the C= system that predates Almost On
Line. They are not now nor ever were commercial releases. IIRC one was a
shareware, now PD as are the rest. Based off my memory  I have...

 Ship Generator books 1-3
 Character Generator books 1-3
 World Generator <2 of them> books 1-3
 System Generator for CT and MT. This is a answer on screen questions and
it then prints out the location, collection of info including trade routes
for an entire sub sector.

 These are curenly on my BBS. I can make them into a .D64 for any one with
an emulator that would be interested in trying them.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 22:25:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:25:32 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <5b.23399cea.29a46d65@aol.com>
References: <5b.23399cea.29a46d65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <405g7uoe0qegj547rsjh9cqi4lsv2ol579@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:09:25 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I would certainly be interested in such a product, of course depending
>>  upon the price.  If the base price is too high, you might be able to
>>  increase the perceived value by adding some of the material from the
>>  site utilities area.
>
>The gentleman uses a phrase with which I am unfamilar. What site utilities 
>area?

I was probably being quite loose in my recollections and including the
links to free and shareware utilities found at
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/.

It certainly is a utilities area on the Steve Jackson Games site, but
is mostly links to sites outside the SJG site.  I think that many
people would appreciate a collection that included the Traveller
applicable freeware and shareware for which you could gain
distribution permission.  I would imagine that many of those people
which permit links to their programs would be happy to permit a
similar distribution on CD.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 23:50:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:50:26 +0000
Subject: [TML] Artificial Selection
Message-ID: <F183iSbq9JVsn4Lry4H000232b1@hotmail.com>

From: Rachel Kronick <rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net>

     "I agree with his conclusion, which, though a bit pat, is that such 
selection will make the species weak in the long run."


Ms. Kronick,

     Another literary reference of this is in S.M. Stirling's rather 
distasteful "Draka" series.  The eponymous group in those novels subjects 
themselves to genetic engineering in order to become super humans of some 
sort.  They run faster, lift heavier things, kill quicker, do big math in 
their heads, etc., etc.  Unfortunately, the work done was at the expense of 
their creativity.
     Of course, that may be more of a literary choice on Mr. Stirling's part 
than a scientific notion.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 23:58:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Write)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:58:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: D&D Personality Test (one more time)
In-Reply-To: <200202230901.g1N91tGo010094@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020223235825.36799.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>

I finally succumbed to curriosity and freed up enough
time to take the test... and the results are in...
Neutral Good Elven Cleric Bard, and because I was
drawn two different directions on four questions, the
second pass at the test gave me Lawful Good Elven Mage
Bard. 

Hmmmm. 

General Turokan, did you take the test? Where did you
end up? This seems like a good place to suggest that
anyone with the appropriate background maybe come up
with a Traveller Vocational Appitude Test for the TML.

Thanks, Dave


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 00:05:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:05:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: D&D Personality Test (one more time)
In-Reply-To: <20020223235825.36799.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B89D6E5F.28396%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

> 
> General Turokan, did you take the test? Where did you
> end up? This seems like a good place to suggest that
> anyone with the appropriate background maybe come up
> with a Traveller Vocational Appitude Test for the TML.
> 
> Thanks, Dave

I'm working on one version.  I'll be taking input from the TML soon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 00:04:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:04:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Silliness
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>You?  LG?  It is to laugh, my dear barrister.

Agreed, hence my suggestion that the exam was somewhat flawed.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 00:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:18:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] [Ebay] Alien Modules 1-"9"
Message-ID: <B89D7144.26AC%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Yes, I know that there were only 8, but I've always included Alien Realms
into the total.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&us
erid=s_schoon@pacbell.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=0

Look if you're interested,
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:12:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:12:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
References: <200202232047.g1NKl7OJ007690@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C783E18.342E6D5B@earthlink.net>

Tod Glenn posted:
>
> Too much Play By Email.
>
> Interview with an 'Evil' GM

Two can play that game.

If I were Mikie, that would be one very, very dead cabal.

Preferably from a mix of kiloton-yield nukes.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:17:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <3C783E18.342E6D5B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B89D7F1B.283E5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/23/02 5:12 PM, David Smart at jurrubin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn posted:
>> 
>> Too much Play By Email.
>> 
>> Interview with an 'Evil' GM
> 
> Two can play that game.
> 
> If I were Mikie, that would be one very, very dead cabal.
> 
> Preferably from a mix of kiloton-yield nukes.
> 
> David
> 

Hard to kill someone when you don't know who they are.  Mikie was left with
no one to retaliate against.  And to what end.  It wouldn't bring back
Theresa.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:37:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:37:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Bush
Message-ID: <87.180603d3.29a99dc5@aol.com>

> From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament: 
>  
>  ".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>  one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>  alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...." 

Well, this is _mostly_ true . . . except some unpleasantness in the 1930s and 
1940s, things have been relatively calm.

LKW (who begins to see why Bush the elder thought of Dan Quail as "like a son 
to me").

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:42:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:42:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Artificial Selection
Message-ID: <200202240142.RAA27843@molly.iii.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>Ms. Kronick,
>
>     Another literary reference of this is in S.M. Stirling's rather 
>distasteful "Draka" series.  The eponymous group in those novels subjects 
>themselves to genetic engineering in order to become super humans of some 
>sort.  They run faster, lift heavier things, kill quicker, do big math in 
>their heads, etc., etc.  Unfortunately, the work done was at the expense of 
>their creativity.
>     Of course, that may be more of a literary choice on Mr. Stirling's part 
>than a scientific notion.

While there's no question that genetic engineering could create some 
bad results, the Draka problem only makes sense if no-one was clever
enough to think of saving genetic samples of pre-modification humans.

Which is possible, but unlikely and remarkably stupid.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:30:12 +1000
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
References: <200202232047.g1NKl7OJ007690@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <004501c1bcd5$f4f5f420$3c5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> A, ya gotta love short-track..

Aerial skiing is kind of nasty too.  I mean, having your feet leave the
ground and spinning around high in the air has surely got to be the epitome
of not-skiing...

> Picture the Imperial equivalent.. short track grav board races!

<shudder>

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com









From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:48:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:48:31 +1000
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
References: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <004601c1bcd5$f59dcce0$3c5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I'd prefer to see just a class generator, and have ignore race and
alignment.

I'm actually quite amused by the alignment bit.  In fact, last night I
sketched out a DnD town, based on the understanding of alignment shown by
the survey.  I quite like the approach they took:  the Church defines Good,
the State defines Law, and if you dissent from both you are CE!  (And I
don't mean Church of England - they're LE, accepting medieval Catholicism as
"the" Church.)

Just to prove that I am in fact Evil:  do Morris dancers count as Bards?  Or
are they Monks?  They seem to combine music and martial arts.

I think if I ever play a Bard, he might play bagpipes.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

Chaotic Evil, and proud of it!





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 01:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:55:33 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
Message-ID: <60.1b7c0bb0.29a9a215@aol.com>

In a message dated 23-Feb-02 2:50:22 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> Did they play "Sweet Home, Alabama"?  :)

I dunno, but they do a pretty good "I Got Plenty o' Nothin"" . . . and their 
"Little Lands" can bring tears to my eyes.*

LKW

* I'm one of the few people who liked the old Soviet National Anthem "Hymn of 
the Soviet Union" . . . but then again, I find the French, German, and US 
NatAths about equally inspiring, when done properly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 02:19:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:19:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: D&D Personality Test (one more time)
Message-ID: <20020223.181943.-148437.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) Dave Write <wrdwrite@yahoo.com>
writes:
>  Neutral Good Elven Cleric Bard, and  Lawful Good Elven Mage Bard. 
> 
> General Turokan, did you take the test? Where did you end up?

Actually I and not the General, or Chaplain, did take the test, and
posted it yesterday. I was surprised that Cleric wasn't higher, but I
don't care to hang with Lawyers and Politicians, but I like Priests, or
pastors, so I couldn't pick that.

Having never played DnD I was reluctant to find out, but decided why not.

I came out Neutral Good Elf Ranger Bard

I've read the meanings and find it a fair analysis of me.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 02:36:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:36:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
In-Reply-To: <20020223094306.B18115@4dv.net>
References: <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>
 <F48DEfOZaeP0h9kSBs2000140f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223183458.009e92e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 2/23/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:04:12AM +0000, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> >
> > Given that someone, somewhere[1] will be scanning emails for certain words
> > and phrases, how many of us here on the TML have files with one (or 
> more) of
> > the "Alphabet Soup" government agencies?
>
>http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/12/20/211923/84
>
>Be Afraid.

Lesse, I used to be in the Army, and when I got out I was a socialist for a 
time, and now I just march in the streets for gay rights.

Baby, the New York Phone book has got *nothing* on my FBI file!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:01:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:01:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20223.190159.2H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....
>
> Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
> is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
> I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator. 
> Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
> much resourse space.

It's called "Netware". A Netware server will support clients running
Appletalk over ethernet and PCs running IPX or TCP/IP from the same
server. And when the filenames aren't compatible, it'll automatically
*create* a compatible name in the "other" namespace.

On the other hand, not everybody wants to spend several hundred bucks
on a Netware license. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 02:50:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:50:36 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <E16dkvP-0006o7-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20223.185036.0Q0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The most bizarre story I've heard was someone foolish enough to 
> look for roleplayers by posting a newspaper personals ad (in the 
> activities column, so they weren't totally off-base).  He found 1 
> gamer that way, and a *whole* lot of exceedingly 
> clueless/desparate people in the kink community who assumed 
> that role-playing involved whips leather and similar gear.  

I know some folks who are into the "other" kind of role-playing.
Specificly, "age play". And they are constantly getting folks who think
that rather than playing at being kids, they are some sort of
child-molestors. 

Probably the same sort of "logic" that says D&D is real magic. :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 02:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:40:15 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220081959.009f7a50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20223.184015.0J0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
>>After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
>>"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
>>and nurses" ?

As someone with experience with *both* sorts of role-playing, I can
state that there are major differences. And that many people don't get
*either* variety.

> Sadly, no.
>
> Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
> like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
> touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*
>
> We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves, when 
> someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a dispatcher 
> for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and wrote role-playing 
> games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological tool for 
> therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea that these 
> were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere else doing things 
> that are fun!

I don't know a lot of folks in the local poly community. But the ones I
do know are (thankfully) not *that* strange. Then again, where I tend
to run into the ones I know is at SF cons, "munches" and local parties
that are a sort of cross-over between the local fan, geek, kink and
poly communities.

ObTrav: If your only contact with a group is at "self-selected"
groupings of some sort, you may be in for a *rude* shock when you
eventually run into more "normal" (average?) members of the group or
subculture. 

> I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
> It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
>                          --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)

ROFL! 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:06:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:06:36 PST
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20223.190636.8A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with
>>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
>>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
>>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
>>e-mail, and think no more about it.
>
> I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
> mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
> of email spam than junk snail mail.

I don't get more than half a dozen pieces of junk mail a *month*. 

I get more than that a *day* one an account I haven't used as anything
but an emergency backup in 10 *years*. I deal with around 50 pieces a
*day*, maybe more. On several of my accounts, I get more spam than real
email.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:23:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <200202240321.g1O3LU422360@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Gonzalez <doctor_romulus@yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
...
>What has annoyed me since 9/11 is that too many folks
>have this idea that if we leave them alone they'll go
>away or that somehow this country deserves what
>happened to us on that horrid day. It makes me ill.

  "We've been drawn into a civil war within the Arab (Muslim) 
world...it's a conflict waged in the heart of the Saudi regime."

  The WTC attack was simply a ploy in someone else's domestic 
politics. Apparently the shoe being on the other foot is quite
the shock for some.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:52:37 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
References: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1bce6$cca5c340$5680f1cf@computer>

Thanks for all the feedback.  And yes I know its heavy water not hard water
lol :)

Specifically what I'm looking for in game terms:

I want/need justification of a "fuel" for fission and fusion plants that
will need to be replaced constantly.  I understand that a starcraft using a
fusion plant would need large amounts of hydrogen or some other fuel to
convert to plasma for thrust.  But, I wanted a justification that fusion and
fission plants need a "fuel" to provide electricity other then radioactives
or deuterium.  This will help me limit the abilities of the starcraft and
keep them from running around the galaxy with their warp drives with no need
to refuel (I want a warp drive that uses only electricity, not jump fuel as
in Traveller).  I was hoping to use the coolant or moderator as the "fuel"
required to turn a turbine and thus create electricity even when not using
thrusters.  If a coolant is NOT used up in large quantities, then I have a
problem and need to rethink my ideas to give them some believability.

Other justification I wanted was to use Hydrogen as this fuel/coolant since
it will be needed to provide thrust anyway.  Wanted to keep things simple.
I didn't want to require characters to keep track of Hydrogen fuel for
thrusters and Water fuel/coolant for electricity.  Was hoping to use
Hydrogen for both to keep things simple, feeding both the thrusters and the
turbine for electricity for other systems of the craft.  I get from
everyone's answers that Hydrogen doesn't work currently, but could it be
more desirable in the future?  If the problems of Hydrogen "seeping" were
removed somehow in the future could it have advantages over water, heavy
water, lithium, etc?

PS: Been looking all over the web to see if someone has gone through all of
this in detail for a game.  Can't find anything yet.  Also been looking
through Traveller and 2300 AD sources, but they seem to barely get into the
details.  In 2300 AD,  fusion/fission plants don't need fuel at all.  What
keeps craft from zipping around the galaxy without stopping is the warp
drive range limit (7.7ly then have to discharge with a system).  In
Traveller the means to make a starcraft stop from time to time is the need
for more jump fuel.  The warp drive I wish to use is based upon a enitrely
theoretical "real world" one that requires only large amounts of
electricity.  My problem is if I add a fusion plant that doesn't require any
kind of repeated refueling, my starcraft can zip around with no need to
stop.

Thanks in advance for any further time taken to answer my questions. :)

KS_Lawdog
webbs@journey.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:15:36 PST
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20223.191536.9t7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years now 
> (since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some people 
> complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, regularly post to a 
> half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I get, on average, one to 
> three unsolicited spams a week.

Do you post to newsgroups? And do you visit lots of websites.

I know that the *only* way my "emergency backup" email address gets on
lists is because it appears in my sig.

The one account I *never* get spam on is *only* used for SCA mailing
lists and related personal email. The *lists* occasionally get spam
though.

> I don't post to Usenet.

That's a biggy, if not *the* biggy.

> I don't use irc or instant messenger programs.

I don't think those increase spam. They *do* result in a bunch of junk
messages via that medium if you don't "restrict" things. ICQ has
"ignore user". Plus, since I only use it for friends, I set my end to
"invisible" which means that only folks I've specificly authorized can
tell if I'm online or not.

AIM has a similar feature where you can restrict your visibility to
people on your "buddy list". 

> I don't hand out my e-mail whenever I'm asked for it on a demo download 
> or something. JoeBlah@blah.com gets all of that junk mail...

I ought to set up a dummy account just for that. One of the advantages
of your own domain. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 03:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:25:51 PST
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b899bd059bce@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20223.192551.7O4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 10:52 AM -0700 2/20/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years 
>>now (since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some 
>>people complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, 
>>regularly post to a half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I 
>>get, on average, one to three unsolicited spams a week.
>
> I was in at ballpark until I was in a hurry to find a cheap fare and 
> used several of the on-line travel sites.  I'm up to 6 messages a day 
> and the rate is increasing.
>
> In addition to requiring all spam be labeled as advertising, I would 
> like to see a law that requires a spammer to answer inquires about 
> where he got your address (so that those sites that that are selling 
> the addresses of their customers can be held accountable).

I'm in favor of either passing a law (or enforcing the one that
arguably covers this) that makes it a felony to send out email with a
faked return address or otherwise set up to obscure the source. 

With ISPs that co-operate in nailing users on their system getting a
percentage of the fine. That would encourage them to crack down. 

And the "spam haven" ISPs would either require real return addresses or
get nailed for "aiding and abetting". 

BTW, I get almost as much spam addressed to addresses that *don't
*exist* as ones that do. Stuff like "shado@krypton.rain.com",
"hadow@krypton.rain.com" and many other variations.

Every one of those requires processing and storage. And with the bogus
return addresses (or throwaway accounts with full mailboxes) every one
of those bad addresses generates a bounce message from my mailer, which
generates a bounce message from the bad or full account. 

That's *three* messages worth of traffic, and two messages worth of
storage on my system. 

At my normal $40/hr consulting fee, I *easily* spend several hundred
dollars a month dealing with spam. And that's *in spite* of having
batch files set up to try to move the more obvious spam to places where
I can quickly deal with it. 

Oh, I just checked. In the few hours since I last checked, my "backup"
account has gotten one piece of spam, my system account has received
one, there have been 3 returned bounce messages, and 5 orphan (ie no
such account) messages.

The previous check was at 12:55, this one was at 19:40. So that's less
than 7 hours, and I haven't checked the other 5 accounts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:30:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:30:00 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
In-Reply-To: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202240526090.7365-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:

>Perhaps the rat bast**d has EVERYTHING as randomostity.

Has anyone tried entering the same set of answers twice?



     Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"What's your saving throw against spells which normally allow no
 saving throw?"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:41:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:41:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: Stupidity
In-Reply-To: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202240532430.7365-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:

>From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>
>What is wrong with this picture?

First and foremost it was posted to the TML even though it has absolutely
nothing to do with Traveller in any way, shape, or form. Labeling it 'OT'
does nothing to justify that.

It's one thing for a Traveller-related topic to go off along a tangent and
devolve into an off-topic thread. It's quite another to start a brand new
off-topic thread. The first is understandable if undesirable. The second
is nothing but bad manners.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------

"...why wouldn't a Navy SEAL, a 33rd degree Arch Mason, a tabloid reporter,
and the world's leading genetic experimenter all be in the 7-11 the night
the werewolves attacked?"

                        _Suppressed Transmission, 29/12 00_ by Ken Hite


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:53:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:53:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Geneering (Was: Looksist People)
In-Reply-To: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202240545550.7365-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Actually, that's the *problem*. Because the "bad" genes are frequently
>only bad in a given environment. Eliminate them from the population and
>then when an environmental change happens (or when you move to another
>planet) those genes may turn out to be *necessary* for survival.
>
>This is why eliminating recessives is generally a *bad* idea. It's more
>difficult, but far safer, to screen the eggs and sperm to avoid
>*pairing* "bad" recessives.
>
>That way, if it turns out that there are times/places when those genes
>are *needed*, they still exist in the population.

Heinlein deals with this topic in _Beyond this Horizon_. Your solution is
more elegant than his (The society in _Beyond..._ leaves some people
unmodified. They are known as 'Control Naturals' (or something like that)
and recieves a pension from the state. They are also looked down upon by
their optimized cousins).

Of course, one might argue that people in general are too short-sighted to
allow your solution. "No way we're going to let OUR child carry around any
bad recessives!"



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
    "The greys are lovely people, absolutely fabulous with genetics and
bioengineering, but they can't park their spaceships worth a damn."

                                                -john, humorless toad
                                                 jcfiala@cssltd.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:02:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:02:58 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
Message-ID: <F98CK0hSeEgQfajFwWG00015109@hotmail.com>

>"n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
>
> >Perhaps the rat bast**d has EVERYTHING as randomostity.
>
>Has anyone tried entering the same set of answers twice?
>
That might not work. He could be using some kind of modulo function that 
gives predictible output.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:30:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:30:55 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223074907.009ee660@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20223.203055.5s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 08:18 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>Just look at the results of trying to "help" people by making it
>>illegal to give placebos in federally funded studies.
>>
>>The end result was that by making it harder to do double blind studies,
>>several drugs and treatments were in use for a decade or more before
>>enough evidence accumulated to show that they didn't work any better
>>than older, cheaper treatments and in some cases, didn't work as *well*.
>
> This is just don't get.  I took part in three blind tests, one anti-nausea 
> drug, and a couple designed to help regulate my production of blood 
> cells.  I had to sign more paperwork to take part than I did to have large 
> slabs of organ removed!  I could have declined to take part (I did decline 
> one test because it directly affected my chemotherapy) and anybody who does 
> take part goes in with eyes wide open.

Oh, but some people didn't understand that they might be getting a
placebo instead of the drug being tested. Or their relatives got
unhappy when they died or some such.

Besides...

It's For Your Own Good.

<blech>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:02:22 PST
Subject: [TML] Artificial Selection
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020224021034.02efa320@localhost>
Message-ID: <20223.210222.3t6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hmm...  Perhaps, in the future, society will have a professional
> caste of nutcases?  We now have a professional caste of people
> trained to kill, perhaps in the future there will be a group given
> social dispensation to be creatively unhinged.

C.S. Friedman, "This Alien Shore". It has a culture that deals with
*widespread* mental and behavioral "quirks" in an interesting way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:41:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:41:25 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202230858450.7472-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20223.204125.3o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Me, my appearance "preferences" amount to "not overly "skinny" (a
>> "prejudice" that surprised me when I first stumbled over it) and "not
>> 'ugly'". 
>> 
>> To *me*, personality is a far more important criterion than appearance.
>
> Carriage and body language are far more important to me than appearance
> alone; personality isn't something I feel I can judge until I have known a
> person for a very long time.  (Or perhaps I mean "character".  I have been
> very pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised by people in this area; I
> really don't believe I know someone till they've been around for a while.
> Due to past experience.)

I've got the same sort of experience. Which is one of the reasons
"appearance" ranks so far down my list. Too many "beautiful people" who
would cheerfully devastate a vulnerable person just for laughs. 

> Pheromones are the wild card.  That's why I don't do much online dating
> these days.  Between pheromones and body language I can absolutely not
> tell if I will want someone "that way" before I meet them in RL.  My
> second serious lover was nicknamed Taz, Orc, or Imp by most of his
> friends (and I usually don't go for hairy guys), but he smelled like
> heaven and he had an ego big enough to live with mine.  When I've broken
> the "must have an ego from hell" rule in picking my partners, I've
> invariably ended up in a relationship that didn't work because the other
> person was afraid of me and couldn't stand up to me.  As most of you have
> probably noticed, I know exactly what I want (or at least I think I do)
> and I am not in the least afraid to say so, sometimes loudly.  People who
> think that it would be "un-nice", or rude, or just not their place to ask
> for and even insist on things tend to end up resenting me.

Well, that depends. I can think of some "submissive" types that might
work out ok. But most would be a real disaster for both of you.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:51:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:51:35 PST
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223080305.009eed90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20223.205135.1C7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 11:32 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>What is the most evil thing you have done to your players?
>
> Put them in a situation where they thought they were saving the Marches... 
> only to find out they had blown a five year counter-intelligence op run by 
> Naval Intelligence.  INI was *not* pleased with them.  At all.  Having a 
> Vice Admiral who also happens to have a subsector duke as a cousin pissed 
> at you makes your life interesting, in the Chinese sense.

Ah yes, the *full* version of the infamous Chinese Curse.

"May you have a long life in interesting times and draw the attention
of important people."

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:38:25 PST
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223091738.02df9e40@mail.mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <20223.203825.2L2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 09:12 AM 2/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Oh come on...that Pacific War thing was just a glitch.  4 years out of a 
>>150.  A statistical anomaly.
>>Ya gotta look at the Big Picture!
>>
>>It's not like he said, "Let's not let this turn into another Vietnamese 
>>38th Parallel."
>>
>>At 09:49 PM 2/23/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
>
> Actually my wife who really doesn't like Bush defended his statement. She 
> said that
> he was being diplomatic since its a be no no to mention WWII in Japan.

and that, in and of itself is a *big* problem.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 04:34:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:34:12 PST
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20223.203412.1F6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 09:49 PM 2/23/02 +1000, you wrote:
>> From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>>
>>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>>one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>>alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>>
>>What is wrong with this picture?
>
> You want the list?  Ignore that little unpleasantness during the 40s, he 
> seems to have forgotten that this "alliance" started by US warships sailing 
> into Edo bay and forcing the Japanese to open their markets at 
> gunpoint!  To be honest, there wasn't much of an alliance until we helped 
> rebuild them after WWII.

Well, remember that a lot of the *Japanese* are trying to overlook that
little unpleasantness in the 40s.

> This man is in charge of our foreign policy?  *shudder*

He may not be as dumb as he looks. Then again, what makes you think
he's any better than the average politician? they get elected based on
the ability to get votes, not tthe ability to understand the issues.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:24:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:24:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEHHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> Could someone supply me with a rundown of character
> generation programs -- give me a rough idea of how many,
> where they are, shareware, freeware, tableware, bee-ware, etc?

That is a big ask, there are _thousands_ of character generation
programs out there and they run the gamut from commercial,
company-sanctioned ones, to crappy little Visual Basic or unix
command line scripts that you couldn't give away.

Heck, I must have a couple of hundred on my archive drive, and I
know I haven't bothered keeping most of the ones I've seen over
the years.

Probably a more targeted query would be a good idea ?

If, OTOH, you want to hear about _good_ character generator
programs that you should try to emulate, that's a diffeent story,
there aren't too many of those <grin>.

Far too many of them are written by trying to copy the character
generation sequence, rather than by thinking about how players
usually actually generate their characters.

For a start, any chargen program that forces you to follow the
character generation sequence is pretty much useless. You have to
be able to go backwards and forwards through the generation
sequence, and prefarably on a single "page" or a few tabbed panes
for the programme to be useful (though a "wizard" that is
sequential is useful for beginners).

All calculated stats should automatically recalculate when the
values that make them up are changed (where possble). When you're
using a system that allows you to allocate points, it should
default to average values, and allow you to adjust a stat up,
marking it as too high, without automaticaly forcing you to
remove a stat. Indications such as red (or other obvious
indication, rememberng that people can be red-green colour blind)
letters for stats that are too high are good idea. When you
reduce enough stats for the high one to be affordable the
indication shuld dissappear.

I'll stop now, but I can rave on for hours about the poor state
of user interface design in the vast majority of RPG programmes,
so watch out!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:24:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:24:24 +1300
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075442.009edbb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEHHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

> From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan
> have formed one of the great and enduring alliances
> of modern times. From that alliance has come an era
> of peace in the Pacific...."

While I don't often feel like defending Bush, I have to point out
that he probably _meant_ to say  "for half a century now" and
just messsed it up.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:28:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:28:00 PST
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <20020224094701.B6754@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20223.212800.3E8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Fabian wrote:
>> In an attempt to distract ourselves from the burgeoning flamewar,
>> can anyone give me a reasonable formula that i can plug into excel
>> that will calculate teh volume of an irregular spheroid?
>
> Sure - about 0.5*(diameter)^3, where the diameter is some sort of
> "average" between the shortest and longest diameters.

For a sphere, it's (4*pi/3)*r^3.

My copy of Standard Math Tables is in storage, but as I recall, the
section on Analytical Geometry has formulas for prolate and oblate
spheroids, and one for a "general" ellipsoid (ie cross sections on all
three axes are ellipses, but the length of the axes are all different).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:21:37 PST
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202240927570.23922-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20223.212137.3Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  I can only help you with the Commodore 64/128 line. To that end the first
> part is that they are all freeware, and will be in the Commodore Scene
> from Leeds U.K. for whom I write.
>
>  The ones I have came from Q-Link the C= system that predates Almost On
> Line. They are not now nor ever were commercial releases. IIRC one was a
> shareware, now PD as are the rest. Based off my memory  I have...
>
>  Ship Generator books 1-3
>  Character Generator books 1-3
>  World Generator <2 of them> books 1-3
>  System Generator for CT and MT. This is a answer on screen questions and
> it then prints out the location, collection of info including trade routes
> for an entire sub sector.
>
>  These are curenly on my BBS. I can make them into a .D64 for any one with
> an emulator that would be interested in trying them.

Any chance of getting *source*? I can translate Commodore BASIC to
other versions, though I'm *way* out of practice. Other languages can
probably be translated by *somebody*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 05:30:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:30:50 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <3C78C46B.14724.362392@localhost>
Message-ID: <20223.213050.0F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 23 Feb 2002 at 6:58, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  
>> Congress. And you *can't* take a Congressman to court based on the laws
>> they did or did not pass.
>
> Can you take the government to court though?

Only if they let you. It's called "sovreign immunity". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 06:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
Message-ID: <200202240645.WAA02602@molly.iii.com>

"The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com> writes:

>Thanks for all the feedback.  And yes I know its heavy water not hard water
>lol :)
>
>Specifically what I'm looking for in game terms:
>
>I want/need justification of a "fuel" for fission and fusion plants that
>will need to be replaced constantly.  I understand that a starcraft using a
>fusion plant would need large amounts of hydrogen or some other fuel to
>convert to plasma for thrust.  But, I wanted a justification that fusion and
>fission plants need a "fuel" to provide electricity other then radioactives
>or deuterium.  This will help me limit the abilities of the starcraft and
>keep them from running around the galaxy with their warp drives with no need
>to refuel (I want a warp drive that uses only electricity, not jump fuel as
>in Traveller).  I was hoping to use the coolant or moderator as the "fuel"
>required to turn a turbine and thus create electricity even when not using
>thrusters.  If a coolant is NOT used up in large quantities, then I have a
>problem and need to rethink my ideas to give them some believability.

There's nothing clearly preventing design of a fusion plant with an 
endurance of decades with no refueling.  A fission breeder reactor
could probably also have an endurance of decades.  You could, of course,
simply have ridiculous power densities, in which case the fuel use goes
up, but ships will also be able to turn cities to ash trivially.

The main limitation on the endurance of a fusion reactor is the lifespan 
of the reactor; simply using the reactor gradually destroys it.

>Other justification I wanted was to use Hydrogen as this fuel/coolant since
>it will be needed to provide thrust anyway.  Wanted to keep things simple.

No expendable coolant will normally be used on a ship anyway, so coolant
doesn't need to be kept track of.

>I didn't want to require characters to keep track of Hydrogen fuel for
>thrusters and Water fuel/coolant for electricity.  Was hoping to use
>Hydrogen for both to keep things simple, feeding both the thrusters and the
>turbine for electricity for other systems of the craft.  I get from
>everyone's answers that Hydrogen doesn't work currently, but could it be
>more desirable in the future?

It's a lousy coolant due to very low heat capacity, even if all the 
problems were removed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 06:47:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:47:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Silliness
Message-ID: <20020223.224805.-199713.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Now this is something,
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:30:00 +0100 (CET) Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> 
> >Perhaps the rat bast**d has EVERYTHING as randomostity.
> 
> Has anyone tried entering the same set of answers twice?

Yes
I just entered the same thing twice, and came up with a different 
character.
Most things stayed the same, the following changed

1st - Neutral Good Elf Ranger Bard, 
2nd - Neutral Good Half-Elf Ranger Bard

Alignment:
Chaotic Neutral - (0) - Chaotic Neutral - (-2)

Race:
Half-Elf - XXXXXX (6) - Half-Elf - XXXXXXXX (8)
Elf ------ XXXXXX (6) - Elf ------ XXXX (4)
Halfling - X (1) - Halfling - XXX (3)
Dwarf ---- (-4) - Dwarf ---- (-6)

Class:
Ranger -- XXXXXX (6) - Ranger -- XXXXXXXX (8)
Cleric -- XXX (3) - Cleric -- X (1)
Druid --- (-2) - Druid --- XX (2)
Thief --- (-5) - Thief --- (-7)

That's way too many variables, even if I picked 1 or 2 different, but I
didn't.

Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 09:13:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:13:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <200202240503.g1O536Cp005962@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16euiF-0002m0-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem
> >>with spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
> >>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
> >>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
> >>e-mail, and think no more about it.
> >
> > I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk
> > snail mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my
> > time to dispose of email spam than junk snail mail.
> 
> I don't get more than half a dozen pieces of junk mail a *month*. 
> 
> I get more than that a *day* one an account I haven't used as anything
> but an emergency backup in 10 *years*. I deal with around 50 pieces a
> *day*, maybe more. On several of my accounts, I get more spam than
> real email.

It's odd, I was very much with Bruce before this morning.  I've been 
on the net for 8 years and rarely get more than 3 or 4 pieces of 
span a day (and about half that much junk mail).  Then, I open my 
email and see 211 messages.  Clearly as they are downloading 
most of them are the same length message.  I was expecting 
someone's "out of office" remailer to have chain-reactioned on a list 
(like it did on one list in a truly amazing fashion).  Instead, I had 
180 identical mortgage payment spams, and 53 more arrived before 
they stopped.  Damn that was annoying.

I've never opened up my snail mail box and ended up hip deep in 
junk mail, spam is definitely more annoying.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 09:47:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:47:23 -0000
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
References: <20223.212800.3E8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1bd19$32005840$af66893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 24 February 2002 05:28
Subject: Re: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar


> In mail you write:
>
> > Fabian wrote:
> >> In an attempt to distract ourselves from the burgeoning flamewar,
> >> can anyone give me a reasonable formula that i can plug into excel
> >> that will calculate the volume of an irregular spheroid?
> >
> > Sure - about 0.5*(diameter)^3, where the diameter is some sort of
> > "average" between the shortest and longest diameters.
>
> For a sphere, it's (4*pi/3)*r^3.
>
> My copy of Standard Math Tables is in storage, but as I recall, the
> section on Analytical Geometry has formulas for prolate and oblate
> spheroids, and one for a "general" ellipsoid (ie cross sections on all
> three axes are ellipses, but the length of the axes are all different).

A general ellipsoid is the shape I'm after. Assukming the three
perpendicular diameters are labelled L, W, and H, the volume is L * W * H
* pi * / 6. That is correct in all cases. It is the surface area that I am
especially interested in at the moment.

http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/ellipsoid.htm has the formula I
believe I need, but the terms make no sense to me. Can anyone with
advanced degrees in hard sums translate that formula for the rest of us?

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 10:24:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 04:24:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
Message-ID: <000a01c1bd1d$809600a0$6401a8c0@insightbb.com>

"Artificial Muscles Gain Strength"

http://www.techreview.com/articles/cameron021502.asp

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 10:59:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:59:50 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bush
In-Reply-To: <87.180603d3.29a99dc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEBHCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

LOL, keyboard Kill (Virtual I have just given up eating, drinking at the
keyboard)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: 24 February 2002 01:37
>
> > From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
> >
> >  ".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
> >  one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
> >  alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
>
> Well, this is _mostly_ true . . . except some unpleasantness in
> the 1930s and
> 1940s, things have been relatively calm.
>
> LKW (who begins to see why Bush the elder thought of Dan Quail as
> "like a son
> to me").


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 12:06:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:06:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Artificial Selection
References: <20223.210222.3t6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3C78D761.7090808@gmx.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>Hmm...  Perhaps, in the future, society will have a professional
>>caste of nutcases?  We now have a professional caste of people
>>trained to kill, perhaps in the future there will be a group given
>>social dispensation to be creatively unhinged.
>>
>
>C.S. Friedman, "This Alien Shore". It has a culture that deals with
>*widespread* mental and behavioral "quirks" in an interesting way.
>
Niven uses this in some of his works...3 days a week you're off meds and 
working for the police (ARM) or military, doing things a paranoid is 
good for, a day for shift change and the meds to take effect and 3 days 
off , or something similar...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 12:18:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:18:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova  (REPOST)
In-Reply-To: <71.1afafe24.29a85c55@aol.com>
References: <71.1afafe24.29a85c55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020224131826.2dc94ffa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:
> http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/landgrab1.html

Looking through the material, I find some things to comment:

----
I would love to see the adventure seed on Ghost expanded, preferably with
some different ideas (six of them? ;-) for how to run the resulting
adventure.

I know I have the seed of an idea already, but it would be interesting to
see what you came up with.
----
"The  SORAG Handbook was published in 1881 by Paranoia Press"
(http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/lexlanor.html)

That year must surely be a typo  ;-)
----
A population of 8000 seems a bit low to maintain the mining of the gems
described on the page for Terra Nova (as well as the technology,
government and other aspects of society). Robots are probably used in the
mines IMHO.

Or there could be a "temporary" Zhodani mining industry, not included in
the world's population.
----

Nice ideas, more expansion all round would be lovely ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 12:22:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:22:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] Grav boards (was: Please! ENOUGH!)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075839.009f7760@mindspring.com>
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020223075839.009f7760@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020224132259.6d85d8f9.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> A, ya gotta love short-track..
> 
> Picture the Imperial equivalent.. short track grav board races!

I have always pictured grav boards of various kinds to be quite popular in
TU. Both as kids toys (skateboards) and as a sport.

"Back To The Future" did a rather good job picturing a somewhat
Travelleresque society IMHO, at least for civilized, peaceful areas. Lots
of useable imagery in there. Really.

Grav boards, holographic commercials, self-drying jacket...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 11:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:53:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Games in Education
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020221235525.038beec0@localhost>
References: <fb.21fb924d.29a5d0f1@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020221235525.038beec0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020224125308.52e939b0.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> I know of a guy here in Taiwan who uses RPG's in ESL teaching.  Seems
like 
> a great idea, and I'd have done it a long time ago if I had more freedom
as 
> to my curriculum.  I can put up the URL of the guy's site if anyone
wants 
> it.  (I.e., I'm too lazy to go dig it out right now.)

Back about five or six years ago, I and a couple of friends played
Rolemaster in our English class (in English, off course).

The teacher had the (not so bright) idea that the class should watch a few
movies and spend time discussing them and writing reviews. We explained
the RPG concept and asked for the opportunity (and our own classroom) to
play instead.

*grin*

The characters and the story synopsis we wrote was a blast, but I only
have the printouts (the file was lost in a harddrive crash). Our teacher
must have thought (?) that we had some really strange, morbid humor... 
;-)

"Our prisoner's bleeding" said Arbaax. When the rest of the gang looked at
him with a mixture of alarm and accusation, he quickly added "I didn't do
anything". It didn't help.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 14:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:15:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] email test
Message-ID: <20020224141543.99594.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com>

Just checkin how the tml filters deal with mail sent
using this utility on this device.



=====
----------------------
"Randy was forever telling people, without rancor, that they here full of shit. That was the only way to get anything done in hacking. No one took it personally." -- Cryptonomicon   <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/>
----------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:49:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:49:38 -0000
Subject: [TML] Heaven&Earth
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c1bd40$9cb74e60$a200a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have a copy of the Heaven&Earth distribution file for
beta version 1.0.8?  The H&E mail list seems to have disappeared.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:45:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Travel zones
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1bd40$9c41d040$a200a8c0@imogen>

The travel zone classification system (eg. Amber  Zone,  etc)  is
run by TAS, which is a 3I-based organisation.  How far beyond the
3I border does it extend?  And what other polities  have  adopted
this? (eg. the Zhodani Consulate ?)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 09:36:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:36:49 -0000
Subject: [TML] Solomani dates
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c1bd40$9bd3f340$a200a8c0@imogen>

IIRC the 3I year was created to match the Sylean year,  which  by
coincidence is the same length as the Earth year.  Given  that  I
have got that right I doubt that the start of  a  3I  year  would
match the start of an Earth year.  So my  question  is  this:  on
what  Earth  day  does  the  3I  year  start?   (ie.  001-1105  =
28-May-5626 ?)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 23 10:03:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:03:42 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <000d01c1bd40$9d23a4c0$a200a8c0@imogen>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version
> > of the GURPS Character Builder CD?
> > 
> > What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
> > 
> > Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the
> > other?
> > 
> > Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> > 
> > LKW
> > 
> 
> Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

I know there are some commercial utilities that allow you to  run
Windows programs on a Mac, but is there any utilities that  allow
you to run Mac software on Windows?  All I've found on the net so
far are half finished projects to do this.  The reason I  ask  is
that there are some Mac programs for Traveller ...  I'd  like  to
try them out but have a limited budget (don't want to buy a  Mac)
and limited time (don't want to spend 3 days  fiddling  with  the
installation).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 15:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:45:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Attention evil ones
In-Reply-To: <004601c1bcd5$f59dcce0$3c5d8690@computer>
References: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020224074424.009e67f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:48 AM 2/24/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Just to prove that I am in fact Evil:  do Morris dancers count as Bards?  Or
>are they Monks?  They seem to combine music and martial arts.

IMDDU, they are nuisance monsters.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 16:48:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:48:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] [www] 24 Feb 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <r06i7u8jp7vri0miepi2t9voelflpuu0bp@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/.  

In this update:

 - Ken Pick extends the Book 2 ship design system. Read it in The Shipyard.

 - Kevin Walsh brings us the design specs for the Flying Cloud-class Star
   Clipper. Read about it in The Shipyard. 

 - Updated the FAQ and the Published Products list to reflect recent
   SJGames releases. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.








Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 19:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:35:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1bd1d$809600a0$6401a8c0@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <20020224193539.70651.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Dern, I read just half a year ago in a Popular
Mechanics magazine about an exo skeleton that was
being made for the military and police. Science can
make muscles that look like tape, but going to Mars
and curing lag are just too much to ask. 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 20:01:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:01:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
In-Reply-To: <200202240503.g1O536Cp005962@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020224115939.00ade008@mail.peak.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

>Lesse, I used to be in the Army, and when I got out I was a socialist for a
>time, and now I just march in the streets for gay rights.
>
>Baby, the New York Phone book has got *nothing* on my FBI file!

I've seen it.  It's not all *that* big. :^)



         - Mark "hack the feds" Cook

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 20:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:51:40 +1100
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <008701c1bd19$32005840$af66893e@fabian>
References: <20223.212800.3E8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <008701c1bd19$32005840$af66893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20020225075140.A9340@freeman.little-possums.net>

Fabian wrote:
> A general ellipsoid is the shape I'm after.
[...]
> It is the surface area that I am especially interested in at the
> moment.

Ow! Oww!  You do *not* want the exact formula.  It has been known to
drive students of mathematics insane.

Well, maybe not that bad.  But almost.


> http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/ellipsoid.htm has the formula
> I believe I need, but the terms make no sense to me. Can anyone with
> advanced degrees in hard sums translate that formula for the rest of
> us?

Well, the easy part is explaining the a, b, and c.  These are the
largest, middle, and smallest radii of the ellipsoid respectively.
There are special-case (and *much* easier) answers for a=b or b=c.
You only want the second line of the big formulas on that page; the
first line is just the mathematical restatement of the question.

In the answer, I imagine the nastiest bit would be the EllipticE and
EllipticF functions.  These are specialised functions that were
essentially made up for dealing with the integrals that arise when
dealing with ellipses and ellipsoids.  It is highly unlikely that your
spreadsheet has them.  This being the case, you will have to make do
with an approximation.  I can find a few, however.  How many digits of
accuracy do you need?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 20:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:53:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <kgki7us1199r4h78v5tltpr4d90a54l83o@4ax.com>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:03:58 -0800 (PST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:

>>  I can only help you with the Commodore 64/128 line. To that end the first
>> part is that they are all freeware, and will be in the Commodore Scene
>> from Leeds U.K. for whom I write.

>>  The ones I have came from Q-Link the C= system that predates Almost On
>> Line. They are not now nor ever were commercial releases. IIRC one was a
>> shareware, now PD as are the rest. Based off my memory  I have...

>>  Ship Generator books 1-3
>>  Character Generator books 1-3
>>  World Generator <2 of them> books 1-3
>>  System Generator for CT and MT. This is a answer on screen questions and
>> it then prints out the location, collection of info including trade routes
>> for an entire sub sector.

>>  These are curenly on my BBS. I can make them into a .D64 for any one with
>> an emulator that would be interested in trying them.

>Any chance of getting *source*? I can translate Commodore BASIC to
>other versions, though I'm *way* out of practice. Other languages can
>probably be translated by *somebody*.

I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible), Pascal, C, and Euphoria.  As long as you
don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.  In a pinch, and with
lots of documentation, I could probably also handle FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP,
APL, and Perl.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 20:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:54:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020224115939.00ade008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <B89E92EC.285B3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/24/02 12:01 PM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:

> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
>> Lesse, I used to be in the Army, and when I got out I was a socialist for a
>> time, and now I just march in the streets for gay rights.
>> 
>> Baby, the New York Phone book has got *nothing* on my FBI file!
> 
> I've seen it.  It's not all *that* big. :^)

Doug, Mark.  Just file an FOIA request and chances are you can look at it.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 20:57:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:57:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Addresses, Please...
Message-ID: <koki7ucekb357g9ut1tfsqk6q5lqvn1tb4@4ax.com>

If you've written in the past for Freelance Traveller, or know the current
whereabouts of someone who has but is not on the TML, please contact me (or
have them contact me) with the name that you are credited by at Freelance
Traveller, and an e-mail address at which you can be reached.  I was
recently approached and needed an authorial email address; fortunately, it
was one that I do have - but I might not be so lucky next time.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 21:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:19:06 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 (Terra Nova)
Message-ID: <14f.9716ff0.29aab2ca@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/24/2002 2:06:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> - ----
> I would love to see the adventure seed on Ghost expanded, preferably with
> some different ideas (six of them? ;-) for how to run the resulting
> adventure.

Getting to work on that as soon as i find my notes from the first time around.

> "The  SORAG Handbook was published in 1881 by Paranoia Press"
> (http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/lexlanor.html)
> 
> That year must surely be a typo  ;-)

Nope the books says 1981  Needless to say it's long out of print but I 
managed to find a small cache. I never had access to the book ages ago so 
back then it was just a Zhodani scout base.

> A population of 8000 seems a bit low to maintain the mining of the gems
> 
Well, Terra Nova only has a population of 3 which equates to Thousand of 
inhabitants.
I do not want to change the basic stats for planet away from canon so I 
figure most of the mining is either automated or via mining bots. 

I admit there are errors in my work, largely due to the difference that comes 
with time. Back then we did not have Heaven & Earth (which is a great program 
BTW), in fact for a long time the only books I even had were 0-5 plus a nice 
beautiful black poster of the Marches. So we had to freehand it back then. So 
a lot of my notes are written with the lack of all the books that came later 
and from the mind of a 10 year old hehehe.  I am trying to update stuff now 
days as much as I can gather from my notes and new books. I dont play GURPS 
but have found some of the traveller stuff to be great sources of info so 
often find myself using First In, Far Trader, and Alein races 1 a lot.  I 
have been doing a lot of collecting old stuff as of late via ebay (even ended 
up with dupes of a lot of it) so i am slowly catching up with some of the 
stuff i missed.  

Back in the day our adventures were more in and around Zhodani peoples, 
mainly because i had more freedom with creativity and tended to like 
psionics.  

As far as the TML goes i think it is a very interesting ideal and wish more 
people would jump in. It takes so long to fully flesh out a single system let 
alone a whole sector. I love detail and think it helps a lot when players end 
up on a planet that i can have background info on.  When we started out 
everything was so generic that all plaents were pretty much the same :)

Besides all of the stuff i am digging out on Terra Nova i am also deep into 
detailing out another system we used to visit often.

Landgrab: Terra Nova     http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 21:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:21:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Solomani dates
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1bd40$9bd3f340$a200a8c0@imogen>
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net> <000a01c1bd40$9bd3f340$a200a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020225082141.B9340@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> IIRC the 3I year was created to match the Sylean year, which by
> coincidence is the same length as the Earth year.

Well, my copy of GT says that the Imperial year and day lengths are a
holdover from Terran influence.


>  Given that I have got that right I doubt that the start of a 3I
> year would match the start of an Earth year.  So my question is
> this: on what Earth day does the 3I year start?  (ie.  001-1105 =
> 28-May-5626 ?)

Since the Imperial calendar does not have leap years (all are 365 days
long), the start date would drift throughout the Gregorian calendar as
time passes, one day sooner every 4 years (except x00 where x is
indivisible by 4).  i.e. one cycle every 1470 years or so.  If they
were in sync at the start of Year Zero (4524 Solomani), then 001-1105
would be 5628 April 7 in the Terran calendar.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 21:59:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:59:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1bd40$9d23a4c0$a200a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <200202242159.g1OLxLUa013551@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/23/02 at 10:03 AM,  "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
said:

>> Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

>I know there are some commercial utilities that allow you to  run
>Windows programs on a Mac, but is there any utilities that  allow you
>to run Mac software on Windows?  All I've found on the net so far are
>half finished projects to do this.  The reason I  ask  is that there
>are some Mac programs for Traveller ...  I'd  like  to try them out
>but have a limited budget (don't want to buy a  Mac) and limited time
>(don't want to spend 3 days  fiddling  with  the installation).

Yes. 

Go to ardi.com and look at Executor.  I've used the demo version to
run Rob Prior's programs under Windows 95/98, and in Windows 3.1 under
OS/2. Both setup quickly and ran acceptablly. I've never tried the
Linux version, or felt the need to purchace the commercial version,
though, so I can't speak for those.

Another, and probably faster method comes from softMac, see
www.emulators.com for details. The downside to softMac is that you
must have access to a valid Mac ROM and a boot disk. The upside is
they sell a hardward card that includes a Mac ROM and *should* give
performance virtually equal to a true Mac.

And, as several folks have told me repeatedly, an older used Mac
doesn't cost very much and will probably do all you need for the
available Trav/mac programs.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 22:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:08:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] reOT:  Stupidity.
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>
>From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
>
>".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
>one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
>alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."

Surely he meant "for a half a century now..."  This is a gaffe of Quaylean
proportions, and I just don't think Dubya is quite as stupid as Dan Q.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 23:00:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:00:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] reOT:  Stupidity.
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C797091.72FADCEB@premier.net>



"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> >From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
> >
> >From the speech Bush delivered to the Japanese Parliament:
> >
> >".... for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed
> >one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that
> >alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific...."
> 
> Surely he meant "for a half a century now..."  This is a gaffe of Quaylean
> proportions, and I just don't think Dubya is quite as stupid as Dan Q.

Of course, a President Gore would likely have claimed to have invented
Japan.  Such a claim would have passed unnoticed, save by the Vast
Right-Wing Conspiracy. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 23:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:24:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova  (REPOST)
Message-ID: <20020224.182437.-235545.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> "The  SORAG Handbook was published in 1881 by Paranoia Press"
> (http://www.geocities.com/sineater40k/lexlanor.html)
> 
> That year must surely be a typo  ;-)

Nah, just a precursor ro the SORAG/Space 1889 crossover supplement which
GDW never got around to doing...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."



________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 24 23:54:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:54:12 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: CG programs
Message-ID: <7c.23794dad.29aad724@aol.com>

In a message dated 24-Feb-02 2:06:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
>  > Could someone supply me with a rundown of character
>  > generation programs -- give me a rough idea of how many,
>  > where they are, shareware, freeware, tableware, bee-ware, etc?
>  
>  That is a big ask, there are _thousands_ of character generation
>  programs out there and they run the gamut from commercial,
>  company-sanctioned ones, to crappy little Visual Basic or unix
>  command line scripts that you couldn't give away.
>  
>  Heck, I must have a couple of hundred on my archive drive, and I
>  know I haven't bothered keeping most of the ones I've seen over
>  the years.
>  
>  Probably a more targeted query would be a good idea ?

Perhaps later. You gave me what I wanted to know, however, in that you 
condfirmed that I can use the word "thousands" when referring to the number 
of them out there.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:00:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:00:18 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam, by whatever name called
Message-ID: <189.3dc6d6c.29aad892@aol.com>

> I've never opened up my snail mail box and ended up hip deep in 
>  junk mail, spam is definitely more annoying.

Junk snail mail costs the people sending it to me about a dollar, what with 
the postage, the cost of printing, and so on. It costs me little except the 
time it takes me to toss it into the recycling bin my landlord helpfully 
provides next to the mailboxes in my apartment complex. 

Junk e-mail cost the sender very little, and can cost the recipient. I  my 
case, it is not as easy to differentiate spam from real mail, because friends 
and relatives occasionally use subjects like "Hi" and "You gotta see this!" 
and sometimes change e-mail addresses without telling me. 

In any case, my interruption level has dropped to zero since I restriced the 
people who can send me instant messages.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:05:11 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: DOug's FBI File
Message-ID: <14b.9750bad.29aad9b7@aol.com>

> I've seen it.  It's not all *that* big. :^)

I'm told mine is small for such things. Then again, most of mine consists of 
correspondence with assorted agents WRT RPGs as "Satanic" during my stint 
with the GAMA committee for such things.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:42:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:42:16 +1100
Subject: [TML] Solomani dates
In-Reply-To: <20020225082141.B9340@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <20020222152402.10812.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020222114516.00ad4bd8@urbin.net> <000a01c1bd40$9bd3f340$a200a8c0@imogen> <20020225082141.B9340@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020225114216.A12096@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> If they were in sync at the start of Year Zero (4524 Solomani), then
> 001-1105 would be 5628 April 7 in the Terran calendar.

As a postscript to my previous message (posted in haste as I was on my
way to work), it should also be noted that the length of Earth's day
increases by a few milliseconds over the course of 4000 years, and
these amounts add up to a significant fraction of a day by 5628.  So
the start of the Imperial day won't quite match Earth's day unless
active steps are taken to keep them in sync.  I doubt that the
Imperium would take such steps, instead using a constant reference day
of 86400 seconds.

Relativistic and gravitational corrections would have to be made for
places other than Capital, of course :) Time-dilation effects could
lead to discrepancies of a day or so per millenium between even
neighbouring systems in the Imperium otherwise.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:15:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:15:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <20223.205135.1C7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223080305.009eed90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020225091339.04b38400@localhost>

Hi all!

>Ah yes, the *full* version of the infamous Chinese Curse.
>
>"May you have a long life in interesting times and draw the attention
>of important people."

You know, I've been studying Mandarin for 15 years, but I've never heard 
anyone say this or any variation of it.  (To others, either -- not just 
because I'm nice.)  I think its 'Chineseness' is a misnomer, like a Chinese 
fire-drill.

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:39:13 PST
Subject: [TML] Solomani dates
In-Reply-To: <20020225082141.B9340@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20224.163913.7k5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Since the Imperial calendar does not have leap years (all are 365 days
> long), the start date would drift throughout the Gregorian calendar as
> time passes, one day sooner every 4 years (except x00 where x is
> indivisible by 4).  i.e. one cycle every 1470 years or so.  If they
> were in sync at the start of Year Zero (4524 Solomani), then 001-1105
> would be 5628 April 7 in the Terran calendar.

Don't forget that the Gregorian calendar isn't a perfect match even
now. By 5600 AD, it'll be a day or two out of synch with the sun.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:26:43 PST
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <200202242159.g1OLxLUa013551@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20224.162643.1g9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And, as several folks have told me repeatedly, an older used Mac
> doesn't cost very much and will probably do all you need for the
> available Trav/mac programs.

If I didn't mention it before, I got a couple of Powerbook laptops and
a PowerPC based Mac desktop system from someone a while back simply for
the cost of shipping.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:49:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:49:15 PST
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <20020225075140.A9340@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20224.164915.2P3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Fabian wrote:
>> A general ellipsoid is the shape I'm after.
> [...]
>> It is the surface area that I am especially interested in at the
>> moment.
>
> Ow! Oww!  You do *not* want the exact formula.  It has been known to
> drive students of mathematics insane.
>
> Well, maybe not that bad.  But almost.
>
>
>> http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/ellipsoid.htm has the formula
>> I believe I need, but the terms make no sense to me. Can anyone with
>> advanced degrees in hard sums translate that formula for the rest of
>> us?
>
> Well, the easy part is explaining the a, b, and c.  These are the
> largest, middle, and smallest radii of the ellipsoid respectively.
> There are special-case (and *much* easier) answers for a=b or b=c.

For reference, a=b gives you an oblate spheroid. b=c gives you a
prolate spheroid.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 00:51:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:51:54 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Need help Fusion/Fission fuel
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1bce6$cca5c340$5680f1cf@computer>
Message-ID: <20224.165154.0a9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want/need justification of a "fuel" for fission and fusion plants that
> will need to be replaced constantly. 

That is most definitely going *against* the way fission and fusion work.

> I understand that a starcraft using a
> fusion plant would need large amounts of hydrogen or some other fuel to
> convert to plasma for thrust.  But, I wanted a justification that fusion and
> fission plants need a "fuel" to provide electricity other then radioactives
> or deuterium.  This will help me limit the abilities of the starcraft and
> keep them from running around the galaxy with their warp drives with no need
> to refuel (I want a warp drive that uses only electricity, not jump fuel as
> in Traveller).  I was hoping to use the coolant or moderator as the "fuel"
> required to turn a turbine and thus create electricity even when not using
> thrusters.  If a coolant is NOT used up in large quantities, then I have a
> problem and need to rethink my ideas to give them some believability.

Well, with MHD, you don't have turbines, you just run the plasma thru
the generator (which amounts to a "pinch" in a pipe with a magnet
wrapped around it, but *don't* use that for a description!).

And the cooled plasma would get fed back into the reactor. Closed cycle.

You'd collect the helium via some sort of electromagnetic seperator
downstream of the generator.

> Other justification I wanted was to use Hydrogen as this fuel/coolant since
> it will be needed to provide thrust anyway.  Wanted to keep things simple.
> I didn't want to require characters to keep track of Hydrogen fuel for
> thrusters and Water fuel/coolant for electricity.  Was hoping to use
> Hydrogen for both to keep things simple, feeding both the thrusters and the
> turbine for electricity for other systems of the craft.  I get from
> everyone's answers that Hydrogen doesn't work currently, but could it be
> more desirable in the future?  If the problems of Hydrogen "seeping" were
> removed somehow in the future could it have advantages over water, heavy
> water, lithium, etc?

The problems *can't* be removed, because they are due to the basic
properties of hydrogen and various solids. It's equivalent to saying
"If hydrogen could be made non-flammable". 

Turn it around. *Use* those properties. 

It's not that they run out of fuel, it's that due to damage caused by
hydrogen absoroption (or neutron bombardment if you are fusing
deuterium, tritium or helium-3) you have to tear down the power system
and *replace* major components. Ones that can't be built onboard. 

True, this means it'll be 6-months to a couple of years between
overhauls, but you can have the chance of a failure be proportional to
the time since the last overhaul. Maybe in a non linear way. So the
chance of failure skyrockets after a certain time. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:08:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <200202240503.g1O536Cp005962@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020224170404.00a39620@mailhost.efn.org>


> > Two can play that game.
> > If I were Mikie, that would be one very, very dead cabal.
> > Preferably from a mix of kiloton-yield nukes.
>
>Hard to kill someone when you don't know who they are.  Mikie was left with
>no one to retaliate against.  And to what end.  It wouldn't bring back
>Theresa.

There is a fine line between "evil" (in jest) GMing and screwing the PCs 
with no recourse or hope of victory.  From the players' side of the table, 
this line often blurs into invisibility.

Maybe your players keep coming back, Mr. Glenn; masochists do exist.  I 
would, and have, quit a game that consisted of only tragedy and no-win 
situations.

Just another viewpoint.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:13:20 -0600
Subject: [TML] Heaven&Earth
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1bd40$9cb74e60$a200a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <200202250113.g1P1D3Ua027597@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/23/02 at 09:49 AM,  "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
said:

>Does anyone have a copy of the Heaven&Earth distribution file for
>beta version 1.0.8?  The H&E mail list seems to have disappeared.


The mailing list has relocated to HEMailingList@yahoogroups.com

I reckon the latest beta could be found in the files section there.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Claim Terra Nova  (REPOST)
References: <71.1afafe24.29a85c55@aol.com> <20020224131826.2dc94ffa.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3C7992D3.2060907@yarranet.net.au>

To      : Terra Nova Tourist Board

 From    : SORAG

Subject : Your New Tourist Brochure


SORAG would like to suggest that the following paragraph from your new 
Tourist Brochure be amended to remove all mention of our facilities on 
Lexlanor.

    Places of Interest-
     1) Moderate Lanthanum and Nickel deposits in the system
     2) Secret R&D lab run by SORAG

Your co-operation is appreciated.

################

Of course it actually said Notes of interest but that's not how I read 
it because I was reading it as if it was a tourist brochure.

Is it a keyboard kill (virtual) if it comes about from a website?

The site looks interesting and I look forward to seeing more.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:36:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Please! ENOUGH!
References: <200202222039.g1MKdwdB019167@rhylanor.cordite.com> <003401c1bc19$7937f840$255d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3C79952B.50400@yarranet.net.au>

Alan Bradley wrote:

> Actually, I think Australia is doing very well, with gold medals in "Sheer
> Dumb Luck", and "Falling Over Gracefully".

Ah jealousy.

Does any other country get to see "The Ice Dream"? It's the Winter 
Olympics version of "The Dream" done by the same people for the Sydney 
Olympics.
It's hosts, Roy and HG, are two fictional jingoistic Australian sport 
personalities who love sport in a blokey way but poke fun at the 
silliness of a lot of it particularly when they commentate the various 
events making up their own names for manoeuvres and the personalities of 
the athletes.

Anyway, every night they have a different medal count so of course they 
do the Australia 2 Gold, New Zealand 0 comparison. One of the funniest 
was the Gold Medal Strike Rate where other countries had 4 Gold out of 
16 and got 25% Australia had 2 out of 2 so 100%. Ahh statistics.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:50:33 +1300
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020225091339.04b38400@localhost>
References: <20223.205135.1C7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3C7A4F39.32554.CCEFAB@localhost>

On 25 Feb 2002 at 9:15, Rachel Kronick wrote:

> Hi all!
> 
> >Ah yes, the *full* version of the infamous Chinese Curse.
> >
> >"May you have a long life in interesting times and draw the attention
> >of important people."
> 
> You know, I've been studying Mandarin for 15 years, but I've never heard
> anyone say this or any variation of it.  (To others, either -- not just
> because I'm nice.)  I think its 'Chineseness' is a misnomer, like a
> Chinese fire-drill.

When I first struck this saying in a book of proverbs, curses, etc. it 
was credited as Scottish.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:08:30 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <kgki7us1199r4h78v5tltpr4d90a54l83o@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20224.170830.3l2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:03:58 -0800 (PST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) wrote:
>
>>In mail you write:
>
>>>  I can only help you with the Commodore 64/128 line. To that end the first
>>> part is that they are all freeware, and will be in the Commodore Scene
>>> from Leeds U.K. for whom I write.
>
>>>  The ones I have came from Q-Link the C= system that predates Almost On
>>> Line. They are not now nor ever were commercial releases. IIRC one was a
>>> shareware, now PD as are the rest. Based off my memory  I have...
>
>>>  Ship Generator books 1-3
>>>  Character Generator books 1-3
>>>  World Generator <2 of them> books 1-3
>>>  System Generator for CT and MT. This is a answer on screen questions and
>>> it then prints out the location, collection of info including trade routes
>>> for an entire sub sector.
>
>>>  These are curenly on my BBS. I can make them into a .D64 for any one with
>>> an emulator that would be interested in trying them.
>
>>Any chance of getting *source*? I can translate Commodore BASIC to
>>other versions, though I'm *way* out of practice. Other languages can
>>probably be translated by *somebody*.
>
> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible),

Commodore, TRS-80 and Apple BASICs aren't very MSBASIC like. Thank god
nobody is likely to have written any gaming stuff in NorthStar BASIC or
the like.

I have Turbo Basic and FirstBasic (and rwally should pick up PwerBasic
one of these days) as well as an OS/2 BASIC I forget the name of. And
the Mac version of QuickBasic.

> Pascal,

Pascal I can handle. I've got Turbo Pascal up thru version 7, and
should be able to do OS/2 ports (I have two Pascals that are supposed
to do it, I just haven't tried yet). If anybody has a copy of the Mac
version of TP, I'd be interested.

> C,

I can kinda puzzle out C, and in any case, I find the the biggest
problem with C is when you don't have the same libraries as the person
who wrote the program you are trying to compile!

> and Euphoria.

Never heard of it.

> As long as you don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.

Screen formatting in any of the 8-bit BASICs *does* get into that sort
of thing.

File access is another nightmare.

> In a pinch, and with lots of documentation, I could probably also
> handle FORTRAN,

Fortran translates easily into BASIC unless you are dealing with some
of the weirder math functions.

> COBOL,

<shudder>

> LISP, APL, and Perl.

I actually have the old IBM APL interpreter. It'd likely be great for
doing some stuff if you didn't need to think in Polish Notation (like
RPL but the other way around <Add><A><B> for example)

I don't know much about perl, but I now have a copy.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 02:46:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:46:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani dates
Message-ID: <3C79A572.114AC2A7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:36:49 -0000
> From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
> Subject: Solomani dates
> 
> IIRC the 3I year was created to match the Sylean year,  which  by
> coincidence is the same length as the Earth year.  Given  that  I
> have got that right I doubt that the start of  a  3I  year  would
> match the start of an Earth year.  So my  question  is  this:  on
> what  Earth  day  does  the  3I  year  start?   (ie.  001-1105  =
> 28-May-5626 ?)
>
> Regards PLST

Consider also that the Imperial calendar doesn't appear to have leap
years so even if 001-0001 corresponded to January 1st of whichever
Solomani year (to lazy to look it up) by 1100 the Imperial calendar will
be 265 days ahead of the gregorian counterpart. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:50:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:20:07 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <20223.212137.3Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202251216540.27723-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Any chance of getting *source*? I can translate Commodore BASIC to
> other versions, though I'm *way* out of practice. Other languages can
> probably be translated by *somebody*.

 I'll take a look and see what I can do. Some are in ML. I am not good
enough yet to break into that with out help and the source code. IIRC one
of them is basic and was Blitz'ed. I have a tool someplace to break that
open. Hate to try Track and Sector editing. Not that good at it yet. Only
author source I have is their Q-Link Handle. They are sadly not on the
Q-Linker list I have from another site.

 Care for me to send you the files in their current state?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 02:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:34:30 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <kgki7us1199r4h78v5tltpr4d90a54l83o@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202251229110.27723-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Jeff:

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible), Pascal, C, and Euphoria.  As long as you
> don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.  In a pinch, and with
> lots of documentation, I could probably also handle FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP,
> APL, and Perl.

 Well I must state that the BASIC used would be PET Basic by CBM. Not even
opening the files I can say the there are POKE codes as the screen and
border colours are changed. Those being POKE53280,x and POKE53281,x <where
x= 1-16 for the CBM colour codes.> I'm not good enough to say if you could
or couldn't convert it. But if interested I'll make a .D64 and zip it <yes
we can do this on a C= now ;-)  > Then send it to all interested in an
attached e-mail off list. Perhaps with my books and your skills they can
be converted?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 03:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:05:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Heaven&Earth
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C79A9DF.BCE48EE@earthlink.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor posted:
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the Heaven&Earth distribution file for
> beta version 1.0.8?  The H&E mail list seems to have disappeared.
>
> Regards PLST

We're still around. Try emailing HEMailingList@yahoogroups.com

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 03:53:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:53:20 -0600
Subject: [TML] Costume possibilities
In-Reply-To: <ff.c2195c4.28d3d2e4@aol.com>
References: <ff.c2195c4.28d3d2e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5lcj7uotkeqjd2nr2nh54rhaksodfp57tr@4ax.com>

Just happened to be watching the Olympic closing ceremonies and the
performers referred to as the "New York Antigravity Troupe" (or some
such thing) just appeared.

The interesting costume possibilty was the nature of their
"antigravity" boots or stilts.  These are somewhat similar to a failed
design I had created for altering a human leg into something similar
to a classic canine hind leg structure.  My design failed partly
because I couldn't find a way to balance on the things, but it wasn't
a problem for these skilled performers.

Basically a spring-loaded extension to each foot, it could easily be
adapted to a Vargr costume.  It even had the advantage of changing
their gait to something resembling an upright canine.  With this
visibility to the effects people in moviedom, we may yet see
live-action Vargr character.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 04:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:44:15 +0400
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Digest V2002 #178
In-Reply-To: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1bdb7$14571240$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Did anyone get digest #178, or was it completely lost in the crash?

If anyone did, can they please send me a copy?

Thanks, Andy Long

  _____  

 Andrew Long 	  Email 	  AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae 	  Or	
 P.O. Box 29030	 	  AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com <mailto:AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com>  	  Or	
 Abu Dhabi 	 	 AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates 	  Phone 	  +971 (50) 661 0254 	  Mobile 	
 	  	  +971 (2) 671 0434 	  Home/Fax 	
  _____  



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 01:00:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 02:00:45 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 (Terra Nova)
In-Reply-To: <14f.9716ff0.29aab2ca@aol.com>
References: <14f.9716ff0.29aab2ca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020225020045.02e6b7c5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:
> Nope the books says 1981  Needless to say it's long out of print but I 
> managed to find a small cache. I never had access to the book ages ago
so 
> back then it was just a Zhodani scout base.

The book might say 1981, but the page says 1881... one hundred years
earlier...

;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 07:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:48:09 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Silliness
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202221558030.863-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202250947050.29116-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> Well, wine and cheese didn't make me neutral, and honor didn't make me a
> dwarf.  I am still a Lawful Neutral Elf Bard Mage, which isn't even a
> lawful character class the last time I played (and probably only I would
> care, lol)

Well, in 2nd ed AD&D bards need to be at least partially neutral, so they
can be lawful neutrals.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 07:50:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:50:22 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222162101.009f60b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202250949320.29116-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
> >GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
> >average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
> >opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).
> Take a quirk: finds plain people attractive. (-1)

Wouldn't that be a positive effect? More targets?

Never played GURPS, but it seems that many effects could be 0.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 08:39:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:39:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020224170404.00a39620@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B89F384A.286B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/24/02 5:08 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

> There is a fine line between "evil" (in jest) GMing and screwing the PCs
> with no recourse or hope of victory.  From the players' side of the table,
> this line often blurs into invisibility.
> 
> Maybe your players keep coming back, Mr. Glenn; masochists do exist.  I
> would, and have, quit a game that consisted of only tragedy and no-win
> situations.
> 
> Just another viewpoint.

When I do things like that, it is with the consent of the player.  We were
exploring the character. My games are highly character driven, and I have
players who like it that way.  They have an expectation that life is not
fair, and sometimes triumph is achieved by survival. In the game mentioed,
the character destroyed a villain and upset a complex and evil plan at the
cost of his own happiness, and ultimately, his own sanity.  It was a choice.

I never set up no-win situations.  But _sometimes_ victory is achieved at a
terrible cost. One that the player is free to avoid.

Blithely wandering though life, hacking enemies, buying stuff, becoming rich
and powerful.  Running these kinds of games holds little interest for me and
my players.  I prefer to measure victories in terms of personal triumphs by
the players, even if sometimes these are tragedies too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 12:14:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:14:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <200202250259.g1P2xBxJ005797@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202250259.g1P2xBxJ005797@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <32ak7ug2tsoufhh90fmrsjkldla0ufqtp4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:59:11 -0800 (PST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

[quoting me]

>> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
>> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible),

>Commodore, TRS-80 and Apple BASICs aren't very MSBASIC like. Thank god
>nobody is likely to have written any gaming stuff in NorthStar BASIC or
>the like.

False-to-fact.  All three are compatible enough with what eventually became
commonly known as GWBASIC, which was MSBASIC.  Think IBM Advanced Basic.
One of the two Apple BASICs was "AppleSoft", which was Apple Microsoft
BASIC.

Again, as long as there wasn't involved peeking, poking and calling,
they're close enough for me to handle.

>I have Turbo Basic and FirstBasic (and rwally should pick up PwerBasic
>one of these days) as well as an OS/2 BASIC I forget the name of. And
>the Mac version of QuickBasic.

PowerBASIC is TurboBASIC - they took it over when Borland dropped BASIC.

>> Pascal,

>Pascal I can handle. I've got Turbo Pascal up thru version 7, and
>should be able to do OS/2 ports (I have two Pascals that are supposed
>to do it, I just haven't tried yet). If anybody has a copy of the Mac
>version of TP, I'd be interested.

>> C,

>I can kinda puzzle out C, and in any case, I find the the biggest
>problem with C is when you don't have the same libraries as the person
>who wrote the program you are trying to compile!

Bingo.  But I've been known to rewrite libraries at need.

>> and Euphoria.

>Never heard of it.

http://www.rapideuphoria.com.  Not sure how to describe it; a competent
programmer in BASIC, Pascal, or C should have no trouble picking this up.
It's more BASIC-like than anything else, but it has some interesting
concepts embedded in it.  I'm currently working on translating GALACTIC
into it.

>> As long as you don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.

>Screen formatting in any of the 8-bit BASICs *does* get into that sort
>of thing.

>File access is another nightmare.

Yes, but with documentation, it's not difficult to do the translations.

>> In a pinch, and with lots of documentation, I could probably also
>> handle FORTRAN,

>Fortran translates easily into BASIC unless you are dealing with some
>of the weirder math functions.

True of almost all of the high-level procedural languages - BASIC, Pascal,
C, FORTRAN, COBOL, etc.

>> COBOL,

><shudder>

I said I could handle it, not that I'd recommend it. :)

>> LISP, APL, and Perl.

>I actually have the old IBM APL interpreter. It'd likely be great for
>doing some stuff if you didn't need to think in Polish Notation (like
>RPL but the other way around <Add><A><B> for example)

>I don't know much about perl, but I now have a copy.

I like APL, but remember that it's a write-only language.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 12:16:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:16:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <200202250259.g1P2xBxJ005797@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202250259.g1P2xBxJ005797@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <imak7ugu31n8elfkodch0g6um3rnrrc704@4ax.com>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:59:11 -0800 (PST), Lord Ronin from Q-Link
<lordronin@videocam.net.au> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
>> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible), Pascal, C, and Euphoria.  As long as you
>> don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.  In a pinch, and with
>> lots of documentation, I could probably also handle FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP,
>> APL, and Perl.

> Well I must state that the BASIC used would be PET Basic by CBM. Not even
>opening the files I can say the there are POKE codes as the screen and
>border colours are changed. Those being POKE53280,x and POKE53281,x <where
>x= 1-16 for the CBM colour codes.> I'm not good enough to say if you could
>or couldn't convert it. But if interested I'll make a .D64 and zip it <yes
>we can do this on a C= now ;-)  > Then send it to all interested in an
>attached e-mail off list. Perhaps with my books and your skills they can
>be converted?

Possibly, though I can't handle a D64 - but if source can be extracted and
zipped as a text file, we're good.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:08:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:08:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <20020219203503.G26003@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20225.060818.2R0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:08:52PM -0600, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
>> 
>> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
>> if you even think of entertaining the notions in
>> this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)
>
> I dunno--if one actually knew the parties involved personally, it'd be
> rather a good scheme.

You are (mistakenly) assuming that the "facts" presented by the spammer
resemble reality. 

There isn't any such account. It's a trick to get you to give them
access to *your* accounts, or to get you to send them money (for
"bribes" or "fees") or even to get you to visit them (and get robbed in
a country where few questions will be asked about a dead foreigner).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:11:28 PST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020219200253.0258ea80@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20225.061128.6i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:28 AM 2/20/2002 +0800, Rachel wrote:
> And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name via 
> Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages which 
> have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and you'll 
> find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered that my 
> name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had made 
> out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it for 
> spambots?
>
>
> I just did a search on my name and came up with 8 pages of messages from 
> travellercentral.com, with a few others thrown in.  I didn't find any 
> listings from any of the yahoo groups I am on.

You need to set your software to properly mark quotes, it's *really*
confusing trying to read even a short message such as the above when
quotes aren't marked.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:03:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:03:36 PST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>
Message-ID: <20225.060336.1q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can you say "Wire Fraud"?
>
> I knew dat ya' could.
>
> -bloo
>
> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
> if you even think of entertaining the notions in
> this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)
>
> -bloo

Well, given that one of the common variations of this has you providing
the scammers with the info required to do a wire transfer *to* your
bank account (which will also let them do one *from* it, thanks to the
extra details they'll ask for as part of the scam), I'd say it's
self-punishing.

Other variations involve sending them money to cover "costs" associated
with setting the scam up.

And a really nasty one involves getting the victim to bring money in
person when he comes to sign the "paperwork". 

The minimum that will happen is that he gets robbed. He may get killed.

The ObTrav should be obvious...


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:19:16 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <20020219203759.H26003@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20225.061916.9H3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:08:00PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
>> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first. I've been
>> increasingly besieged by instant messages from people with names
>> like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a
>> restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why in 25 words or
>> less.
>
> You might wish to investigate jabber <http://www.jabber.com/>
> <http://www.jabber.org/>.  It's an open standard for messaging, very
> interesting, and has the ability to encapsulate AOL IM (AOL's blocked
> 'em, though), MS IM, IRC and several other protocols, as well as its
> own.  It's a very clever scheme, and one I recommend to all my
> friends.  There are client for every major OS, and more than a few
> minor ones.

I've been using Trillian, which has been fighting a "war" with AOL. AOL
changes something to lock out Trillian users, Trillian patches their
software to get around it, repeat ad infinitum.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:32:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:32:34 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <32ak7ug2tsoufhh90fmrsjkldla0ufqtp4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20225.063234.2e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:59:11 -0800 (PST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) wrote:
>
> [quoting me]
>
>>> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
>>> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible),
>
>>Commodore, TRS-80 and Apple BASICs aren't very MSBASIC like. Thank god
>>nobody is likely to have written any gaming stuff in NorthStar BASIC or
>>the like.
>
> False-to-fact.  All three are compatible enough with what eventually became
> commonly known as GWBASIC, which was MSBASIC.  Think IBM Advanced Basic.
> One of the two Apple BASICs was "AppleSoft", which was Apple Microsoft
> BASIC.

I've worked with all three. They are *very* different. Not as different
as some version of BASIC, but about as different as one can get and
still be compliant with is now called "ANSI Minimal BASIC".

> Again, as long as there wasn't involved peeking, poking and calling,
> they're close enough for me to handle.

Try any graphics command, print formatting, file access, or a host of
others. I've got a book 3-4 inches thick that does nothing but explain
variations on BASIC commands between different versions.

>>I have Turbo Basic and FirstBasic (and rwally should pick up PwerBasic
>>one of these days) as well as an OS/2 BASIC I forget the name of. And
>>the Mac version of QuickBasic.
>
> PowerBASIC is TurboBASIC - they took it over when Borland dropped BASIC.

It's based on TurboBasic. They've added stuff, including versions that
that generate Windows programs and DLLs.

>>I can kinda puzzle out C, and in any case, I find the the biggest
>>problem with C is when you don't have the same libraries as the person
>>who wrote the program you are trying to compile!
>
> Bingo.  But I've been known to rewrite libraries at need.

The problem is when you don't have the library, just a call, and you
aren't sure what it does.

>>> LISP, APL, and Perl.
>
>>I actually have the old IBM APL interpreter. It'd likely be great for
>>doing some stuff if you didn't need to think in Polish Notation (like
>>RPL but the other way around <Add><A><B> for example)
>
>>I don't know much about perl, but I now have a copy.
>
> I like APL, but remember that it's a write-only language.

I recall someone on a mailing list, newsgroup or Fidonet echo who
mentioned that he maintained several *thousand* lines of APL. All of us
who knew anything about the language just about had heart failure.

It's readable, it just takes *way* more practice than most folks
(including me) are willing to get.

It shares C's tendency for programmers to write "Guess what *this* line
of code does?" stuff.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:42:05 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202251229110.27723-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20225.064205.9x6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Jeff:
>
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
>> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
>> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible), Pascal, C, and Euphoria.  As long as you
>> don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.  In a pinch, and with
>> lots of documentation, I could probably also handle FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP,
>> APL, and Perl.
>
>  Well I must state that the BASIC used would be PET Basic by CBM. Not even
> opening the files I can say the there are POKE codes as the screen and
> border colours are changed. Those being POKE53280,x and POKE53281,x <where
> x= 1-16 for the CBM colour codes.> I'm not good enough to say if you could
> or couldn't convert it. But if interested I'll make a .D64 and zip it <yes
> we can do this on a C= now ;-)  > Then send it to all interested in an
> attached e-mail off list. Perhaps with my books and your skills they can
> be converted?

Well, if you can just "print" the program to a "PETSCII"<g> file and
zip *that* it'd be much simpler to convert. That way, we don't need an
emulator, just documentation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:47:03 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <imak7ugu31n8elfkodch0g6um3rnrrc704@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20225.064703.9H5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:59:11 -0800 (PST), Lord Ronin from Q-Link
> <lordronin@videocam.net.au> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
>>> I can handle translations between any two of BASIC (QuickBasic or any
>>> reasonably-MSBASIC-compatible), Pascal, C, and Euphoria.  As long as you
>>> don't start getting into PEEK and POKE equivalents.  In a pinch, and with
>>> lots of documentation, I could probably also handle FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP,
>>> APL, and Perl.
>
>> Well I must state that the BASIC used would be PET Basic by CBM. Not even
>>opening the files I can say the there are POKE codes as the screen and
>>border colours are changed. Those being POKE53280,x and POKE53281,x <where
>>x= 1-16 for the CBM colour codes.> I'm not good enough to say if you could
>>or couldn't convert it. But if interested I'll make a .D64 and zip it <yes
>>we can do this on a C= now ;-)  > Then send it to all interested in an
>>attached e-mail off list. Perhaps with my books and your skills they can
>>be converted?
>
> Possibly, though I can't handle a D64 - but if source can be extracted and
> zipped as a text file, we're good.

Just be careful what you open the text file with. PET & Commodore
BASICs were *really* bad about using embedded characters (both "high
ASCII" and control) to do stuff.

Another fun problem is character sets. PET/Commodore did *not* use
ASCII. They used something that was similar, but with odd changes (for
example, upper and lower case are swapped).

The Apple ][ was actually *better* about this than most early PCs. The
TRS-80 was rather worse. 

BTW, if anybody has TRS-80 (Model I, III or 4) programs that need
translation, I've still got working systems that can probably run them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:23:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:23:13 PST
Subject: [TML] Solomani dates
In-Reply-To: <20020225114216.A12096@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20225.062313.2G7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little wrote:
>> If they were in sync at the start of Year Zero (4524 Solomani), then
>> 001-1105 would be 5628 April 7 in the Terran calendar.
>
> As a postscript to my previous message (posted in haste as I was on my
> way to work), it should also be noted that the length of Earth's day
> increases by a few milliseconds over the course of 4000 years, and
> these amounts add up to a significant fraction of a day by 5628.  So
> the start of the Imperial day won't quite match Earth's day unless
> active steps are taken to keep them in sync.  I doubt that the
> Imperium would take such steps, instead using a constant reference day
> of 86400 seconds.
>
> Relativistic and gravitational corrections would have to be made for
> places other than Capital, of course :) Time-dilation effects could
> lead to discrepancies of a day or so per millenium between even
> neighbouring systems in the Imperium otherwise.

That's ok, I've described several times the way the IISS "survey grid"
beacons are used to both get accurate positional data and time sync
data for systems. 

Basicly a 2-way laser link between installations in "far" orbit of
different stars. They exchange time "ticks" from atomic clocks, and
echo the received ticks back. 

Once the link is established (ie the first echoed ticks come back) you
can compare the received ticks and the echoed ticks to get the distance
between the installations. The frequency shift in the beam gives
relative velocity. Using the distance and relative velocity let's you
figure out what time it is "now" at the other end of the link. Which
lets you synch your clocks to theirs.

Sure, it takes about 6.5 years per parsec to synch up. But once
synched, you stay synched and can synch up other systems. 

The IISS used the parsec and longer baselines this provides to compare
astronomical images and get positions accurate enough for decent jump
calcs for systems not yet visited. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:55:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:55:01 PST
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202251216540.27723-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20225.065501.7B3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Any chance of getting *source*? I can translate Commodore BASIC to
>> other versions, though I'm *way* out of practice. Other languages can
>> probably be translated by *somebody*.
>
>  I'll take a look and see what I can do. Some are in ML. I am not good
> enough yet to break into that with out help and the source code.

ML is out of the question, as I'd need a 6510 disassembler, a C64 BIOS
source listing and index *and* knowledge of 6510 assembler. 

I have enough trouble with TRS-80 ML programs and I used to *write* the
things.

> IIRC one
> of them is basic and was Blitz'ed. I have a tool someplace to break that
> open. Hate to try Track and Sector editing. Not that good at it yet. Only
> author source I have is their Q-Link Handle. They are sadly not on the
> Q-Linker list I have from another site.

No idea what "Blitz'ed" means. I assume it's some sort of encoding to
make it hard to get the source?

>  Care for me to send you the files in their current state?

As I said elsewgere, a "PETSCII" listing of the BASIC program might be
usable. Nothing else would be.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 14:52:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:52:27 PST
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020225091339.04b38400@localhost>
Message-ID: <20225.065227.5l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi all!
>
>>Ah yes, the *full* version of the infamous Chinese Curse.
>>
>>"May you have a long life in interesting times and draw the attention
>>of important people."
>
> You know, I've been studying Mandarin for 15 years, but I've never heard 
> anyone say this or any variation of it.  (To others, either -- not just 
> because I'm nice.)  I think its 'Chineseness' is a misnomer, like a Chinese 
> fire-drill.

Well, if one wants to be "accurate" one would put quotes in the
description. Either:
	"Chinese" Curse
or
	"Chinese Curse"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:41:53 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
References: <B89E92EC.285B3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C7A6951.4080307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 2/24/02 12:01 PM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:
> 
> 
>>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Lesse, I used to be in the Army, and when I got out I was a socialist for a
>>>time, and now I just march in the streets for gay rights.
>>>
>>>Baby, the New York Phone book has got *nothing* on my FBI file!
>>>
>>I've seen it.  It's not all *that* big. :^)
>>
> 
> Doug, Mark.  Just file an FOIA request and chances are you can look at it.

Only if you kow which agency...Douglas' biggest one is at a secretive 
un-named agency with MIB's and mostly concerns: 'How did he know about 
the Penguins' and 'Hey...this one can grow spleens! We'd better check 
him out!'

Doug? Seen any black 65 Lincolns lately?



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:42:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tom Wenck)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:42:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] CT Order of Publication
In-Reply-To: <200202250113.g1P1D3Ua027597@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <JJEJIDFPEOEPFLMPFGPAMEMHFCAA.tomw@x-press.net>

Is there any info out there that gives the order of publication for the CT
materials?

I'm looking for the exact order that the materials were published.  Of
course, I know the copyright date and the GDW code numbers (e.g. 301) for
each item.  However, they were not always published in the order of that
code.  For example, High Guard (308), The Kinunir (306), and Citizens of the
Imperium (310) were all published in 1979.  In what order were they
published?

Thanks,

Tom


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:43:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Slightly Off Topic - DnD
Message-ID: <bb.1bbdf827.29abc396@aol.com>

In a message dated 25/02/02 01:54:25 GMT Standard Time, 
rboleyn@paradise.net.nz writes:


> > Hi all!
> > 
> > >Ah yes, the *full* version of the infamous Chinese Curse.
> > >
> > >"May you have a long life in interesting times and draw the attention
> > >of important people."
> > 
> > You know, I've been studying Mandarin for 15 years, but I've never heard
> > anyone say this or any variation of it.  (To others, either -- not just
> > because I'm nice.)  I think its 'Chineseness' is a misnomer, like a
> > Chinese fire-drill.
> 
> When I first struck this saying in a book of proverbs, curses, etc. it 
> was credited as Scottish.
> -- 
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> 

There's a website by a bloke who has spent some time trying to track down the 
origin of this phrase:

http://hawk.fab2.albany.edu/sidebar/sidebar.htm

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:46:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:46:17 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <B89F384A.286B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:39:38AM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020224170404.00a39620@mailhost.efn.org> <B89F384A.286B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020225094617.A31044@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:39:38AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Blithely wandering though life, hacking enemies, buying stuff, becoming rich
> and powerful.  Running these kinds of games holds little interest for me and
> my players.  I prefer to measure victories in terms of personal triumphs by
> the players, even if sometimes these are tragedies too.

To each his own, I suppose.  I play games to escape from the nastiness
of life, not to explore it.  It's the same reason I prefer comedies to
drama: life is bad enough without spending two hours being torn apart
watching some family cope with the loss of its beloved son.  I'd much
rather laugh at some sight gags, some slapstick and a few pretty
girls.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem among the poor than
starvation.  That's something that would have been science fiction to
anybody who grew up before, say, 1900, or even 1950.     --Mark Urbin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:54:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <20225.060818.2R0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:08:18AM -0800
References: <20020219203503.G26003@4dv.net> <20225.060818.2R0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020225095406.B31044@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:08:18AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
> >> if you even think of entertaining the notions in
> >> this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)
> >
> > I dunno--if one actually knew the parties involved personally, it'd be
> > rather a good scheme.
> 
> You are (mistakenly) assuming that the "facts" presented by the spammer
> resemble reality. 

No--I said that if one knew the parties involved, it'd be a good
scheme.  In other words, if one could trust the facts as presented.
In still other and longer words, had I a brother in banking who came
to me with such a situation, things would turn out quite well for our
heroes.

You seem to mistakenly assume that I accept the scheme-as-proposed.  I
don't; it's so transparent as to be ridiculous.  That anyone accepts
such an offer from a stranger is yet another argument against
universal franchise.

> There isn't any such account. It's a trick to get you to give them
> access to *your* accounts, or to get you to send them money (for
> "bribes" or "fees") or even to get you to visit them (and get robbed in
> a country where few questions will be asked about a dead foreigner).

I _know_ that.  Hence the if...then upon which my own statement
hinged.  Sheesh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Drawing on my extensive covert operations training I curled up into a
foetal postion and whimpered.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 16:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:58:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <20225.061128.6i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:11:28AM -0800
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020219200253.0258ea80@mail.earthlink.net> <20225.061128.6i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020225095803.C31044@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:11:28AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> You need to set your software to properly mark quotes, it's *really*
> confusing trying to read even a short message such as the above when
> quotes aren't marked.

Amen and hallelujah.  Also right on & tell it to 'em, brother.

Another list I am on is commonly received in digest format.  Not only
can some folks not insert quote delimiters, not only do they often
respond _above_ the quoted material, but they also and often do not
trim the excess, resulting in massive posts consisting of the entire
digest containing the message being replied to.

I even posted a simple tutorial in how to quote and why it's a good
idea, which was acclaimed by many members--yet the practice continues.

Those who make mailreaders and newsreaders which are incapable of
properly quoting should be banished.

Grumble grumble...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 17:05:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:41 -0000
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0-6
In-Reply-To: <3c653dcd.6829242@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKECDCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

OK a very belated (I've just caught up with it) well done on this, I like
what I have seen so far and would like to see more.

As a TNE GM (and fanatic) a lot of the details are hazy but it's the history
and basics of astrography that I enjoy.  I loved your history of Vincennes
(btw how much of this is purely yours and how much canon) and am looking
forward to seeing the Law and Government sections.

Please keep up the good work

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 17:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:27:43 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <B89F384A.286B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMECECMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

One of the things I (and most of my players) liked about TNE was something
along those lines.  A fact of life in the RC is that sometimes (if not
always) survival is victory anything more than this is a bonus.  There are
real costs to to be paid in rebuilding and those costs are payed in "blood,
sweat and tears".

One of the mods I made IMTU was to allow permanent damage to characters (see
my website for details), the results of these have left several PC's with
visible scars (and many invisible ones; see Anvil as an example).  One
character has serious depression at times and can behave in a "peculiar"
fashion at times, another is a tragic near vegetable due to head injuries.

All these costra make the costs of recovery more apparant and the importance
of their mission more vital.  Tey are all aware that they are a gallant
(under appreciated) few owed too much by the rest of the RC.  In addition
many of them can only function properly in stress situations (i.e. The
Wilds).

Apologies to Sir Winston Churchill for paraphrasing some of his great
speeches (A great Resource for TNE GM's).

Many of these ideas match my study of WW1 and WW2 (and similiar) soldiers;
many only felt at home with their comrades under fire, whilst hating it all.

P.S. see my add on to my IMTU code foir my GM philosophy.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn
> Sent: 25 February 2002 08:40
> on 2/24/02 5:08 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:
>
> > There is a fine line between "evil" (in jest) GMing and screwing the PCs
> > with no recourse or hope of victory.  From the players' side of
> the table,
> > this line often blurs into invisibility.
> >
> > Maybe your players keep coming back, Mr. Glenn; masochists do exist.  I
> > would, and have, quit a game that consisted of only tragedy and no-win
> > situations.
> >
> > Just another viewpoint.
>
> When I do things like that, it is with the consent of the player.  We were
> exploring the character. My games are highly character driven, and I have
> players who like it that way.  They have an expectation that life is not
> fair, and sometimes triumph is achieved by survival. In the game mentioed,
> the character destroyed a villain and upset a complex and evil plan at the
> cost of his own happiness, and ultimately, his own sanity.  It
> was a choice.
>
> I never set up no-win situations.  But _sometimes_ victory is
> achieved at a
> terrible cost. One that the player is free to avoid.
>
> Blithely wandering though life, hacking enemies, buying stuff,
> becoming rich
> and powerful.  Running these kinds of games holds little interest
> for me and
> my players.  I prefer to measure victories in terms of personal
> triumphs by
> the players, even if sometimes these are tragedies too.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 18:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:03:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <20020225094617.A31044@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202250954130.17528-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:39:38AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > 
> > Blithely wandering though life, hacking enemies, buying stuff, becoming rich
> > and powerful.  Running these kinds of games holds little interest for me and
> > my players.  I prefer to measure victories in terms of personal triumphs by
> > the players, even if sometimes these are tragedies too.
> 
> To each his own, I suppose.  I play games to escape from the nastiness
> of life, not to explore it.  It's the same reason I prefer comedies to
> drama: life is bad enough without spending two hours being torn apart
> watching some family cope with the loss of its beloved son.  I'd much
> rather laugh at some sight gags, some slapstick and a few pretty
> girls.

Definitely a matter of taste.  I will know I have gone to Hell after I'm
dead if I'm forced to watch physical comedy over and over.  Ace Ventura
Pet Detective and the Three Stooges would be sufficient punishment for any
offense.  

But I will sound off against those tables where you have to roll your
social status that give you a "realistic" chance of being a poor, despised
peasant.  I play games to escape from the realities of life that I don't
like, just like Robert does; I don't WANT to worry about making the bills,
or whether or not we're eating tonight.  (The time in my life that I gamed
the most I was also the brokest.)  I want to be IMPORTANT, wealthy, and
admired when I game.  That is why I usually play nobles or officers or
flashy-trashy pilots.  Being one of the little people does not appeal to
me.  I don't really consider myself one of the little people in RL (and I
never ever have); I just consider myself a late bloomer.

That is why it's important to know what your players want.  If you want to
run a campaign about being a hardscrabble bunch of peasants trying to
start the Revolution (I had a socialist DM once who never did understand
why I quit his game in disgust), don't ask me, OK?  There has to be enough
of a match between what the players and the ref consider "fun" for a game
to work.  Give me the high drama and the really funny bits (but Bujoldian
funny bits... I loved the Dinner Party Disaster), and I'll be happy for
days.  

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 18:54:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:54:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020225185701.XSVW277.dorsey@link>

Volume of a sphere is four-thirds times pi times the cube of the radius
(4/3 * pi * r^3).

There are techniques for estimating volumes of irregular areas, but not so
simple that you can teach a spreadsheet program to do it in less than one
day.  The technique is basically look at the object, and section it into
smaller parts where each part very closely resembles a regular shape.  Do
the math to compute the volumes of each of these regular shapes and add up
the results.

Hope that helps.

--Laning
Art without engineering is dreaming.  Engineering without art is calculating.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 at 14:29:33 -0000, Fabian <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>
typed:
>In an attempt to distract ourselves from the burgeoning flamewar, can
>anyone give me a reasonable formula that i can plug into excel that will
>calculate teh volume of an irregular spheroid?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 19:01:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:01:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202231602.g1NG2YP3024566@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020225190405.XWZF277.dorsey@link>

Valid and interesting points.  But this whole discussion is starting to
remind me of a certain novel.  Norman Spinrad's 'Iron Dream', anyone?

I am two or three days behind on the TML, please forgive me if this is now
old territory.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 at 06:53:13 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) typed (in response to somebody else, not me):
>
>In mail you write:
>
>>> Not to mention how the population might devolve, absent selection
>>> pressures towards intelligence and attractiveness.  It might get so
>>> bad that _no-one_ is well-formed, and that, upon removal of the
>>> technical cure, the entire next generation would be congenital idiots.
>>
>> Not unless the entire population started off as congenital idiots long 
>> before civilization evolved.  Evolution simply *can't* happen that 
>> fast.  Also, minor genetic engineering is the easiest way to prevent 
>> most such problems.  The people on such a world won't just have 
>> such problems fixed, in most cases no one will *ever* have such 
>> problems again.  This is likely to start happening in the First World 
>> here within 20 years.  The advantage of various forms of genefixing 
>> is that it is forever.     
>
>Actually, that's the *problem*. Because the "bad" genes are frequently
>only bad in a given environment. Eliminate them from the population and
>then when an environmental change happens (or when you move to another
>planet) those genes may turn out to be *necessary* for survival.
>
>This is why eliminating recessives is generally a *bad* idea. It's more
>difficult, but far safer, to screen the eggs and sperm to avoid
>*pairing* "bad" recessives. 
>
>That way, if it turns out that there are times/places when those genes
>are *needed*, they still exist in the population.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 19:30:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:30:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <20020225185701.XSVW277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014665416.113.ajackson@ping>

Laning writes:
> Volume of a sphere is four-thirds times pi times the cube of the radius
> (4/3 * pi * r^3).
> 
> There are techniques for estimating volumes of irregular areas, but not so
> simple that you can teach a spreadsheet program to do it in less than one
> day.  The technique is basically look at the object, and section it into
> smaller parts where each part very closely resembles a regular shape.  Do
> the math to compute the volumes of each of these regular shapes and add up
> the results.

Or, if you happen to have the equation defining the spheroid, apply integral
calculus.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 20:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:43:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
References: <20223.212800.3E8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <008701c1bd19$32005840$af66893e@fabian> <20020225075140.A9340@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <002e01c1be3d$10a64860$92617043@expwncog>

From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:
> Fabian wrote:
> > A general ellipsoid is the shape I'm after.
> [...]
> > It is the surface area that I am especially interested in at the
> > moment.
> 
> Ow! Oww!  You do *not* want the exact formula.  It has been known to
> drive students of mathematics insane.
> 
> Well, maybe not that bad.  But almost.
> 
> 
> > http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/ellipsoid.htm has the formula
> > I believe I need, but the terms make no sense to me. Can anyone with
> > advanced degrees in hard sums translate that formula for the rest of
> > us?
> 
> Well, the easy part is explaining the a, b, and c.  These are the
> largest, middle, and smallest radii of the ellipsoid respectively.
> There are special-case (and *much* easier) answers for a=b or b=c.
> You only want the second line of the big formulas on that page; the
> first line is just the mathematical restatement of the question.
> 
> In the answer, I imagine the nastiest bit would be the EllipticE and
> EllipticF functions.  These are specialised functions that were
> essentially made up for dealing with the integrals that arise when
> dealing with ellipses and ellipsoids.  It is highly unlikely that your
> spreadsheet has them.  This being the case, you will have to make do
> with an approximation.  I can find a few, however.  How many digits of
> accuracy do you need?

Hey Fabian, I asked this question of the math wizards that I got the 
Hero(n) formula from.  They said it was a minor miracle that there 
were formula for the regular (e.g. oblate and prolate) spheroids, so 
what I did was to replace irregular spheroids with something like 
your double domed cylinder (DDC).  You might do a comparison 
between a DDS and a prolate spheroid of the same dimentions and 
try to extrapolate from there; however, I don't know how accurate 
that would be.  It might be close enough for an estimate.  And, no I 
haven't done the calcs yet.  If you do, please send me a copy of the 
"geeky maths."

Jason




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 20:36:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:36:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] interesting times saying
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Rachel Kronick <rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net>
>
>You know, I've been studying Mandarin for 15 years, but I've never heard
>anyone say this or any variation of it.  (To others, either -- not just
>because I'm nice.)  I think its 'Chineseness' is a misnomer, like a Chinese
>fire-drill.

I understand that it comes from the Latin, but I've gotten around to looking
it up.

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>When I first struck this saying in a book of proverbs, curses, etc. it
>was credited as Scottish.

Well, the Scots probably got it from the Romans as they taunted each other
across Hadrian's Wall.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 21:16:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:16:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <20020223095218.E18115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020225211654.86790.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey Mr. Uhl, is this statute for real????

"A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly
uses or intends to use armed force to prevent assault,
rape, murder, or other attack upon himself or
another."
--Illinois Revised Statutes, Chapter 38, Paragraph 24



--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 08:29:39AM -0500, alan spik
> wrote:
> >
> > That's my Bush!  If the facts are too confusing,
> forget them!
> 
> It's his speechwriter.  Politicians don't, I think,
> typically read
> their speeches much.  Make sure they say the correct
> platitudes, make
> sure they push their political agenda--but check for
> correctness?  I
> doubt it.  Just take a look at the sort of gaffes
> uttered by Carter,
> Reagan, Bush, Quayle, Clinton & Gore: they all do
> it.
> 
> > If my father in law, a Bataan survivor, had heard
> this he might have
> > gone on a visit to Bush himself
> 
> Tell me about it.  My grandfather wept when we left
> Iwo Jima (where
> his brother was slain).
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> "A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly
> uses or intends to
> use armed force to prevent assault, rape, murder, or
> other attack upon
> himself or another."
>                  --Illinois Revised Statutes,
> Chapter 38, Paragraph 24


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 21:45:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:45:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <20020225211654.86790.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>; from doctor_romulus@yahoo.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:16:54PM -0800
References: <20020223095218.E18115@4dv.net> <20020225211654.86790.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020225144512.A31738@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:16:54PM -0800, Gonzalez wrote:
> Hey Mr. Uhl, is this statute for real????

We had this out awhile ago--the evidence was inconclusive.  If it is
real, than the section/paragraph/code is specified incorrectly.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I sat around during the design phase going `this is going to suck so
badly that we're going to have to hold onto desks to stop us from being
drawn into the vortex.'                              --Chris Saunderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 22:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:01:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT:  Stupidity.
In-Reply-To: <20020225211654.86790.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014674518.7515.ajackson@ping>

Gonzalez writes:
> Hey Mr. Uhl, is this statute for real????
> 
> "A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly
> uses or intends to use armed force to prevent assault,
> rape, murder, or other attack upon himself or
> another."
> --Illinois Revised Statutes, Chapter 38, Paragraph 24

This came up before, and I did a bit of research.  AFAICT, it isn't.

http://tml.travellercentral.com/archive/092001/msg02761.html is what I found.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 22:36:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:36:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202250949320.29116-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202250949320.29116-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8a06c944001@[198.123.22.162]>

>Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller then at least to
>GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), I've always felt that characters with
>average looks ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
>opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).

Now that I think about it, you might have a bonus for opposite sex 
and and equal penalty for the same sex so that the average is still 
zero (to keep normalized with the chart).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 25 23:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:48:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0-6
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKECDCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OE17OFQOeB7MGMy64Sr0000d137@hotmail.com>

Allow me to chime in with my support and admiration for the Vincennes
project.  Good job,

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 00:17:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:17:31 PST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <20020225095803.C31044@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20225.161731.3H9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:11:28AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> You need to set your software to properly mark quotes, it's *really*
>> confusing trying to read even a short message such as the above when
>> quotes aren't marked.
>
> Amen and hallelujah.  Also right on & tell it to 'em, brother.
>
> Another list I am on is commonly received in digest format.  Not only
> can some folks not insert quote delimiters, not only do they often
> respond _above_ the quoted material, but they also and often do not
> trim the excess, resulting in massive posts consisting of the entire
> digest containing the message being replied to.
>
> I even posted a simple tutorial in how to quote and why it's a good
> idea, which was acclaimed by many members--yet the practice continues.

Here's my current list of references for that sort of thing:

Please send ascii text, not rich text or HTML mail to the list.  Go here
for explanation and instructions on how to set yourself up:

Turning off Mime/HTML:
	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Top posting:
	http://fmf.fwn.rug.nl/~anton/topposting.html

Top Posting & quoting:
	http://www.malibutelecom.fi/yucca/usenet/brox.html
	http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/

Quoting:
	http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
	http://web.ukonline.co.uk/g.mccaughan/g/remarks/uquote.html

How to ask questions:
	http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Usenet history, background:
	http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/zen/zen-1.0_6.html

Formatting, etc:
	http://www.windfalls.net/ukrm/postinghelp.html

Posting etiquette:
	http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1/

General netiquette:
	http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 00:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:33:52 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020225190405.XWZF277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20225.163352.6A9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Valid and interesting points.  But this whole discussion is starting to
> remind me of a certain novel.  Norman Spinrad's 'Iron Dream', anyone?

I haven't read that one. "Bug Jack Baron" was bad enough. Not badly
written, the *concept* was evil. And "tacky" evil at that.

Which was part of the point, really.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 00:19:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:19:59 PST
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
In-Reply-To: <3C72CC29.93738983@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20225.161959.6k9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

My first reading of "ASL" was "American Sign Language". Which produces
a *very* different set of answers. <g>

> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

Depends on how often you need to use it. And how valuable your time is.

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav?

Not that I know of. 

> Could it be?

Probably. And I have to wonder what Vilani "Braille" looks like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 00:30:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:30:55 PST
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014665416.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20225.163055.3W2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Laning writes:
>> Volume of a sphere is four-thirds times pi times the cube of the radius
>> (4/3 * pi * r^3).
>> 
>> There are techniques for estimating volumes of irregular areas, but not so
>> simple that you can teach a spreadsheet program to do it in less than one
>> day.  The technique is basically look at the object, and section it into
>> smaller parts where each part very closely resembles a regular shape.  Do
>> the math to compute the volumes of each of these regular shapes and add up
>> the results.
>
> Or, if you happen to have the equation defining the spheroid, apply integral
> calculus.

This assumes that you *know* integral calc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 00:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:25:41 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <20020225094617.A31044@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20225.162541.8m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> To each his own, I suppose.  I play games to escape from the nastiness
> of life, not to explore it.  It's the same reason I prefer comedies to
> drama: life is bad enough without spending two hours being torn apart
> watching some family cope with the loss of its beloved son.  I'd much
> rather laugh at some sight gags, some slapstick and a few pretty
> girls.

Alas, far too much "comedy" these days (especially on TV) is acutely
*painful* to watch. At least if you have any empathy with the *victim*
of the humor. And yes, they are victims, even if no one is deliberately
plotting their embarassment/humiliation. 

I generally switch channels about the time I see that some poor
unsuspecting character is about to get shat upon by the universe due to
things he doesn't know about.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 02:00:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
References: <3C79A572.114AC2A7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <OE44jik38dWMJ69ik6k00019e9a@hotmail.com>

Given the rather sparse frequency of threads, I offer this poor attempt for
consideration.  The following are some "new" (I am certain they have been
proposed before by others) Traveller products I would like to see (and would
pay money for).  There are offerings from most of the major gaming genre.

    1) Faction books written in "first person" terms.  Like a book on the
Sol Confed with at least part of it done from the Solomani perspective.  I
know some Sol Confed stuff is out there, and in GT there is a little in the
Rim of Fire book, but I am talking about a full volume.

    2) A "new" (I don't care if a different system is adapted, a new one
created, or an old one revived) Traveller miniatures game with Traveller
miniatures.  (Not cardboard heroes)

    3)  A Rebellion era/whole Imperium scale strategic war game al la FFW,
just much bigger.

    4)  More work on the Imperial Navy and the ships they use.  The propsed
GT starships book seems mainly focused on smaller vessels.  I am talking
about a "Ground Forces" for the IN.

    5)  Some volumes detailing the significant noble families to some
degree.  MT describes the Octagon as having the 20 something crests of the
sector dukes hanging on pillars.  I'd like to see some work done on the
sector dukes, and it had best be done well.  Remember that these are the
same people as in MT allowed the Imperium to go to hell.  Even without the
Rebellion (in GT), the underlying stresses should be there, and the sector
nobility should be explained to allow for that.

    6)  A Traveller tactical space combat game scalable to larger fleet
engagements with its own line of ship miniatures.

    7) Something with my name in the credits. (ha ha)


Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 02:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:26:47 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers and Spam
Message-ID: <197.2d92d2d.29ac4c67@aol.com>

>> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
>> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first. I've been
>> increasingly besieged by instant messages from people with names
>> like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a
>> restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why in 25 words or
>> less.
>
> You might wish to investigate jabber <http://www.jabber.com/>
> <http://www.jabber.org/>.  It's an open standard for messaging, very
> interesting, and has the ability to encapsulate AOL IM (AOL's blocked
> 'em, though), MS IM, IRC and several other protocols, as well as its
> own.  It's a very clever scheme, and one I recommend to all my
> friends.  There are client for every major OS, and more than a few
> minor ones.

Thank you for the suggestion, but I don't want to send IMs . . . e-mail works 
fine for me (I don't do ICQ either). However, several people on this list 
(and elsewhere) have me on AOL's "Buddy" list and shoot me notes from time to 
time when I am logged on. AOL allows me to block some/all of these, and I 
have done so for the reasons noted above. I'm automatically blocking all 
except a short list, and I was informing the TML to let me know if they 
wanted on that list.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 02:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:49:27 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <20225.064703.9H5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202261238000.14472-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Just be careful what you open the text file with. PET & Commodore
> BASICs were *really* bad about using embedded characters (both "high
> ASCII" and control) to do stuff.

 That is what I meant about the Basic is PET. Standard CBM Basic has 256
characters. <0-255> The term embedded I don't see often. Most I know call
it invisible characters. If you are talking about the spaces. Such as
CHR$(32) the actual CBM ascii for the space bar. Or do you mean the revese
video ones for programming short cuts and colour colour changes?

> Another fun problem is character sets. PET/Commodore did *not* use
> ASCII. They used something that was similar, but with odd changes (for
> example, upper and lower case are swapped).

 PET ASCII is vastly different and yet similiar from/to ascii of the time.
Most notable are that upper and lower case are revesered when switching
between the two forms of ascii. We also have a collection of keybaord
graphics that can be used and they are in the PET ascii character set.
Availible on the keybaord through the Shift or the C= logo key. There is
also the colours that can be changed onscreen in the immediate mode. As
well as in programme lines. They have special reverse inamge characters.
There is also the character for reverse video on and off. As an example in
PET ascii the CHR$(92) is the brit cit pound sterling symbol. IIRC is is
somewhere around 136 in ascii. While the same string gives the inverse
backslash in ascii. I heard that original ascii for a long time was just
128 characters. Don'T know if that is true or not.

> The Apple ][ was actually *better* about this than most early PCs. The
> TRS-80 was rather worse.

 Never worked with the Apple ][. Did sell the TRaSh 80s wehn they first
came out. Was a chief tech for a local Radio Shack STore.

> BTW, if anybody has TRS-80 (Model I, III or 4) programs that need
> translation, I've still got working systems that can probably run them.

 Not in my collection. Though when the shop reopens I do get people
dumping off TRS 80 units. Generally I don't take in anything hardware or
software that isn't for the C= or Amiga. But if you want prgs and such. i
can keep an eye out for you. I'm a solid C= only user.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 02:04:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:34:08 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <imak7ugu31n8elfkodch0g6um3rnrrc704@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202261230520.14472-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Jeff:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> Possibly, though I can't handle a D64 - but if source can be extracted and
> zipped as a text file, we're good.

 I'd need more knowledge on my tools to try a strip of the brlitzed and
compressed Basic codes. The ML I wouldn't know how to handle at all.
However what platform are you using? I know that the Amiga will handle
Frodo as the emulator for the .D64 files. Windrone last I heard the best
was vice 1.7 IIRC that is a free DL someplace. Don'T know, the users group
doesn'T have any emulator user right now save for the one who is the
representaive, usnign Amiga Forever CD.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 02:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:56:10 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <20225.064205.9x6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202261250560.14472-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, if you can just "print" the program to a "PETSCII"<g> file and
> zip *that* it'd be much simpler to convert. That way, we don't need an
> emulator, just documentation.

 That would require opening up the files. I'll have to experiemtn with
that. The stock LIST command won'T work as they are compiled in basic
forms. That I have to find tools to open them. Once that is done the new
Jiffy Dos chip will work with the @p command to print it out to hard copy,
or I can save the file and zip it. Going to push me into things I thought
about doing but haven't tried yet.

 FWIW: In another msg woy worte about ANSI minimal BASIC". Ther are only a
few prgs that can do Ansi on the Commodore. Some sort of problem with the
ability to have 16 foreground and 16 background colours. I realy don't
know. Tried Ansi on the Amiga to make screens for the BBS. Any way there
are translation programmes that allow Anis users to see C= PET ascii with
colour. Some of my callers log on with Amiga or Windrone. Calling in 80c
Ansi. Don'T se my C= GFX screens. But they do see all the text correctly
on their side and in colours.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 03:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:04:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
In-Reply-To: <3C7A6951.4080307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B89E92EC.285B3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225190100.009eaae0@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 AM 2/25/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Only if you kow which agency...Douglas' biggest one is at a secretive 
>un-named agency with MIB's and mostly concerns: 'How did he know about the 
>Penguins' and 'Hey...this one can grow spleens! We'd better check him out!'

Not to mention my ability to wander around with a platlete count of zero 
without becaoming a living bruise.  My doctor is convinced I'm an alien.. 
he doesn't mind, he just wants a few words with the medical officer when 
the mothership comes for me..

Dare I mention that my .mp3 player chose this moment to play Come Sail Away 
by Styx?  :)

>Doug? Seen any black 65 Lincolns lately?

No, but there are a couple of scary looking Mormons wandering around the 
neighborhood...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I
am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
                    - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 04:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chauncey Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:10:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
References: <3C79A572.114AC2A7@ameritech.net> <OE44jik38dWMJ69ik6k00019e9a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009001c1be7b$9d1c0a80$2c14fea9@ultra2000>

To be very honest with u I'd buy all those products.
to work my way down the list .. differnt fractions would be great. it would
open up new worlds and spheres of space to play in. along with the correct
race books it's a buy it.
2) trav minitures another great idea.. I can use something other then void
and warzone mini's in my striker games and if they're keep generic enough
ppl will use them in other games as well
3)kewl europa in space.. once more I'm down. .Maybe it'll be like the game
for RL that was to tie everything together. with rules for ground and air
and space combat.
4)Fighting ships vol1 and vol2 and vol3. that would be great for number 3..
look sell 2 products with one main idea.
5)goes with idea number 1. hey tie in tie in tie in.
6) can anyone say MAYDAY? sure ties in with number 2  and 3 and 4. the ships
should be that detail sell more product.
7) well if you write any one of the above you know me.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Yin <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 9:00 PM
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]


> Given the rather sparse frequency of threads, I offer this poor attempt
for
> consideration.  The following are some "new" (I am certain they have been
> proposed before by others) Traveller products I would like to see (and
would
> pay money for).  There are offerings from most of the major gaming genre.
>
>     1) Faction books written in "first person" terms.  Like a book on the
> Sol Confed with at least part of it done from the Solomani perspective.  I
> know some Sol Confed stuff is out there, and in GT there is a little in
the
> Rim of Fire book, but I am talking about a full volume.
>
>     2) A "new" (I don't care if a different system is adapted, a new one
> created, or an old one revived) Traveller miniatures game with Traveller
> miniatures.  (Not cardboard heroes)
>
>     3)  A Rebellion era/whole Imperium scale strategic war game al la FFW,
> just much bigger.
>
>     4)  More work on the Imperial Navy and the ships they use.  The
propsed
> GT starships book seems mainly focused on smaller vessels.  I am talking
> about a "Ground Forces" for the IN.
>
>     5)  Some volumes detailing the significant noble families to some
> degree.  MT describes the Octagon as having the 20 something crests of the
> sector dukes hanging on pillars.  I'd like to see some work done on the
> sector dukes, and it had best be done well.  Remember that these are the
> same people as in MT allowed the Imperium to go to hell.  Even without the
> Rebellion (in GT), the underlying stresses should be there, and the sector
> nobility should be explained to allow for that.
>
>     6)  A Traveller tactical space combat game scalable to larger fleet
> engagements with its own line of ship miniatures.
>
>     7) Something with my name in the credits. (ha ha)
>
>
> Jeff Yin
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 04:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:19:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Scam Spamming
References: <B89E92EC.285B3%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020225190100.009eaae0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C7B0CB5.28F384C6@premier.net>



Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 09:41 AM 2/25/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Only if you kow which agency...Douglas' biggest one is at a secretive
> >un-named agency with MIB's and mostly concerns: 'How did he know about the
> >Penguins' and 'Hey...this one can grow spleens! We'd better check him out!'
> 
> Not to mention my ability to wander around with a platlete count of zero
> without becaoming a living bruise.  My doctor is convinced I'm an alien..
> he doesn't mind, he just wants a few words with the medical officer when
> the mothership comes for me..

For me, it's my psychology that has Ter^h^h^h people convinced that I'm
an alien.  Never mind that there is absolutely _no_ documentation to
dispute my being born on yo^h^h this planet....
> 
> Dare I mention that my .mp3 player chose this moment to play Come Sail Away
> by Styx?  :)

And as I read this, my MP3 player happened to be playing "Surrender," by
Cheap Trick. ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 04:34:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:34:49 -0600
Subject: [TML] More Darrian questions
In-Reply-To: <200202251713.g1PHDL7m015329@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1be7e$ed3f4d30$0b01a8c0@duck>

I have found another problem on the four-color Spinward Marches map:
886-945.
It is shown as blue and doesn't have the GG "dot".  However the listing in
Supplement 3 is D800000, but it does have the "G", which means the map only
gets the name and starport right.  2 for 4 isn't a great ratio.

Complicating things is a website that claims to have taken data from the
Regency Sourcebook.  It lists the UWP as D833000, giving it an atmosphere
and water.  So, which is right?  Can anyone with the Regency Sourcebook
confirm the entry for me?  Is it 800 or 833?

Thanks.

(And I can't believe the SM map screwed up *three* planets in a single
subsector!)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 04:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #188
Message-ID: <ca.728cc32.29ac6bfd@aol.com>

> Hey Mr. Uhl, is this statute for real????
>  
>  "A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly
>  uses or intends to use armed force to prevent assault,
>  rape, murder, or other attack upon himself or
>  another."
>  - --Illinois Revised Statutes, Chapter 38, Paragraph 24

It wasn't when I was in Illinois ca. 1997 or so. Certainly it wasn't enforced 
if it was on the books.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 01:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:43:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook
In-Reply-To: <200202230121.g1N1LiOH025470@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <DA9KIPM5J4WLG2VTN97RNIJ32YV.3c7ae85b@kids>

Fairly recently, there were a number of requests for copies of the World Tamer's Handbook.  
I have located a source - a regular ebay seller, of course.  Anyone interested can contact me off-list.
$9.95 + $4.50 shipping.  He has copies of other stuff as well - FF&S for sure, and i think maybe Pocket
Empires.  I deal with him on a regular basis and i can vouch that he's easy to deal with.  :-)

just thought i'd pass it along...






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 04:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:44:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <20020225.234409.-143197.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Just got a copy of MT Hard Times this weekend.  While I've had a copy of
the MT basic rules for about a decade now, I wasn't originally that
impressed with MT, and for years have stuck with CT.  However, in the
last year, I've started picking up a few of the MT supplements: Referee's
Companion, Rebellion Sourcebook, and now Hard Times.

	Damn, but this is a good supplement.

	While the Rebellion itself never did that much for me, actually seeing
the after-effects of the Rebellion, and how it would forever alter the
landscape of the 11,000 worlds that was once the 3rd Imperium, is quite
impressive.  Maybe it's partially because I'm in the middle of (finally)
reading Poul Anderson's 'Flandry' stories, but watching the dream of the
Imperium die as another Long Night approaches (or at least, a Short
Dusk), is actually quite moving.  The mini-scenarios are of varying
quality, but the core of the book remains very solid.

	Although I've been told as much, reading HT confirms it:  Hard Times
shows just how unnecessary Virus was in TNE.  All the things that Virus
was supposed to bring to the Traveller table (a destabilized setting with
more player freedom and a rawer feel) was already present in Hard Times,
with none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to Virus.  

	Although my current campaign is very much CT (Spinward Marches 1106),
I'm seriously thinking that my next Traveller campaign, although still
using CT rules, will be set in a post-Hard Times recovery era campign
("Virus?  What Virus?  Screw the Virus!"), perhaps with a scout crew
exploring the worlds that were lost during the Hard Times.

	I was amused by the printer error in the copy of HT that I acquired
(pages 65-80 are printed twice; how common was this printing error?), but
considering that I got the book for half the original cover price, I'm
certainly not complaining...	


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 05:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:44:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <60.1b7c0bb0.29a9a215@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7BD785.23918.143703B@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2002, at 20:55, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> * I'm one of the few people who liked the old Soviet National Anthem "Hymn of 
> the Soviet Union" . . . but then again, I find the French, German, and US 
> NatAths about equally inspiring, when done properly.

Ahh, if I'm ever in charge of a nation that defeats France in war, I'm 
going to make surrendering La Masseilies a key feature of the 
peace treaty

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 05:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:44:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEHHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7BD785.6434.143703B@localhost>

On 24 Feb 2002, at 18:24, Frank Pitt wrote:

> I'll stop now, but I can rave on for hours about the poor state
> of user interface design in the vast majority of RPG programmes,
> so watch out!

Frank, the majority of *all* programmers UI design skills leave a lot 
to be desired (says Andrew who is redesigning some truely 
shocking UI at the moment: imagine two *totally* unrelated data 
streams being displayed in the same text box without scroll bars, 
starting in the middle and going both ways at once).

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 06:06:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:06:26 EST
Subject: [TML] Not Re: Scam Spamming
Message-ID: <73.1b6942f1.29ac7fe2@aol.com>

Dougs types:

>>Doug? Seen any black 65 Lincolns lately?
>
>No, but there are a couple of scary looking Mormons wandering around the
>neighborhood...
>

Go rent "Orgasmo" (a movie by the Southpark guys) and watch it, and "Scary 
Mormon" takes on a whole new meaning...

 Afterwards, track down a copy of "Shaolin Soccer" and wonder at the 
inadequacy of the unarmed combat rules in most games, Traveller included...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 06:34:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:34:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
References: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com> <3C7BD785.6434.143703B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C7B2C79.93C94E8B@sitraka.com>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote: 
> imagine two *totally* unrelated data
> streams being displayed in the same text box without scroll bars,
> starting in the middle and going both ways at once.

Er,  no, I'd rather not, thanks.

*shudder*



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 06:38:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:38:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
References: <20225.163055.3W2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3C7B2D50.3802467A@sitraka.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> This assumes that you *know* integral calc.

Considering that most university undergrads learn calculus 
while trying to destroy their livers virtually simultaneously,
it's not that big an assumption.

Some elements of integral calc are hard, like trig substitution,
but really, the only people who can't integrate are those who have
never tried.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 06:49:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:49:50 -0900
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
References: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C7B3010.502B8A10@gci.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> > Indeed. Bringing this topic back, if not to Traveller 
> > then at least to GURPS (and thus GURPS Traveller ;-), 
> > I've always felt that characters with average looks 
> > ought to have reaction modifiers from members of the
> >opposite sex. IMO average-looking people are quite attractive :-).

> Now that I think about it, you might have a bonus for opposite sex 
> and and equal penalty for the same sex so that the average is still 
> zero (to keep normalized with the chart).

It would be better if you had a bonus from those who
prefer partners of your apparent gender and a penalty
from those who do not.

However a reaction modifier applies to all reactions.
There are many people who prefer their intimate
relationships 
with persons of one gender and their friendships with those
of another gender. Unless the reaction modifier depends
on the nature of the interaction the rules won't adequately
reflect this.

The way that I usually keep this balanced is that in sexual
situations reaction modifiers from appearance are doubled
in most situations their used at book value and in totally
non sexual situations they are ignored altogether. This
keeps things more of less balanced.

ObTrav: To what degree is appearance universal? Can a human
really even tell if an Aslan or a Virush or a Jgd-il-jgd is
'Beautiful' to other members of its species.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 06:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:56:13 -0900
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C7B318F.71CA1CA3@gci.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>

> I read just half a year ago in a Popular
> Mechanics magazine about an exo skeleton that was
> being made for the military and police. Science can
> make muscles that look like tape, but going to Mars
> and curing lag are just too much to ask. 

A more recent article noted that hospitals and
nursing home are interested in these as they will
make it much easier for their staff to manage (lift)
patients. By doubling or tripling the lifting capacity
of the average orderly or nurses aid they can ensure
that he/she can do this easily without much risk of
(expensive to the employer) back problems.

ObTrav: When the rebels go to make their homemade Battle
Dress they may end up getting their muscle frames from
the health care industry not from the military or the 
police.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 07:37:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:37:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
References: <3C7BD785.23918.143703B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C7B3B50.E2EF634C@premier.net>



Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 
> On 23 Feb 2002, at 20:55, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > * I'm one of the few people who liked the old Soviet National Anthem "Hymn of
> > the Soviet Union" . . . but then again, I find the French, German, and US
> > NatAths about equally inspiring, when done properly.
> 
> Ahh, if I'm ever in charge of a nation that defeats France in war, I'm
> going to make surrendering La Masseilies a key feature of the
> peace treaty

Hmm.  One might think that you were lurking in the recent discussion on
the JTAS IMTU board, in which we discussed using the plot of
_Casablanca_ as a Traveller adventure.... ;-)

[The adventure contest that led to the discussion stipulated the use of
the yacht _Blue Monkey_ (a winner of a recent JTAS starship design
competition) in Delphi Sector.  In explaining why I had chosen not to
enter, I mentioned that I had considered basing the adventure around a
sister-ship to _Blue Monkey_, the enigmatic _Blue Parrot_.  It grew from
there.... ;-)]

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 08:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:52:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16fdKL-00056F-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> Volume of a sphere is four-thirds times pi times the cube of the
> radius (4/3 * pi * r^3).

You know, when I saw the subject line and the first few lines of the 
post, I misread the subject line as "Let ovoid a flamewar".

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 09:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:01:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
References: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C7B3010.502B8A10@gci.net>
Message-ID: <OE51BQhExkiyPoHZgzD0000093d@hotmail.com>


> ObTrav: To what degree is appearance universal? Can a human
> really even tell if an Aslan or a Virush or a Jgd-il-jgd is
> 'Beautiful' to other members of its species.


What's more, would there be any aslans/vargrs modeled toward intentional
human attractiveness?  I mean, anthropomorphic art (the furry fetish) is
around today.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 09:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:46:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16feCU-000883-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> Alas, far too much "comedy" these days (especially on TV) is acutely
> *painful* to watch. At least if you have any empathy with the *victim*
> of the humor. And yes, they are victims, even if no one is
> deliberately plotting their embarassment/humiliation. 
> 
> I generally switch channels about the time I see that some poor
> unsuspecting character is about to get shat upon by the universe due
> to things he doesn't know about.

Agreed, most modern comedy makes me cringe.  I'm completely 
baffled when anyone ever goes to see either Adam Sandler movies 
or any of the various bits of highly painful and in some cases 
vicious comedies that pass for humor.  I'm far more a fan of the 
sarcasm, irony, and laughing along with the comic (as exemplified 
by folks like Dennis Leary) rather than comedy based on pain and 
involuntary humiliation.

OB Trav:  Alien humor...  I'm guessing Vargr may like slapstick, as 
for the rest, I can't even imagine, except that naturally the Hivers 
jokes are exceedingly complex often completely opaque to 
humans.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 09:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:33:02 -0000
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
References: <20225.163055.3W2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3C7B2D50.3802467A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <005401c1beab$4b2cd940$97d1883e@fabian>

From: "Ethan Henry" <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > This assumes that you *know* integral calc.
>
> Considering that most university undergrads learn calculus
> while trying to destroy their livers virtually simultaneously,
> it's not that big an assumption.
>
> Some elements of integral calc are hard, like trig substitution,
> but really, the only people who can't integrate are those who have
> never tried.

While I was trying to destroy my liver while at university[1], I did not
study hard sums. Ergo, I have no understanding of calculus, beyond the
fact that it exists, and is unreasonably effective at describing the
surface area of a general spheroid.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.























[1] Fuzzy duck and the name game in a Prague 24/7 pub with your uni
buddies and buddesses and 4 am in the morning my be fun, but not so much
when you have to visit a former concentration camp the next morning as
part of teh mandated study trip, and then have nothing but a hotdog that
day followed by a half bottle of cheap and nasty vodka mixed with equally
cheap Slovakian mint liqueur shared with your favourite girl. Then passing
out half an hour later and repeating ad nauseam.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 10:54:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:54:10 +0400
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Digest V2002 #187
In-Reply-To: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1beb3$ec6eeac0$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I seem to be losing digests regularly... Now I've missed digest #187

What's happening to me?

regards, Andy Long

  _____  

 Andrew Long 	  Email 	  AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae 	  Or	
 P.O. Box 29030	 	  AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com <mailto:AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com>  	  Or	
 Abu Dhabi 	 	 AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates 	  Phone 	  +971 (50) 661 0254 	  Mobile 	
 	  	  +971 (2) 671 0434 	  Home/Fax 	
  _____  



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 11:30:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:30:36 +0900
Subject: [TML] Travellers Digest: Visit to Antiquity on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <20020215210349.SLNU319.dorsey@link>
References: <20020215210349.SLNU319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <1362191230.20020226203036@greimann.de>

Well,  what  can  i say, the guy who sold me my issue had another one,
and is putting it up at E-Bay Germany
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1708656695

I  don't need it (I've already got one), so I hope it will find a good
home with someone here...
-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 11:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:37:22 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <E16feCU-000883-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEGHHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>


sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> Agreed, most modern comedy makes me cringe.
<snip>

I don't mind actual comedy, they're actors after all, they're
_playing_ at being victims, it's shows like "Jackass" and
"America's Funniest Videos" I can't stand.

Our local accident awareness programme has run ads recently that
take a "funniest videos" shot, and then shows what the person in
it looks like afterwards in the hospital.

> OB Trav:  Alien humor...
<snip>


Well, there was this face-hugger, you see....

Have you heard the one about the brood queen and the flamethrower
?

This colonial marine walks into an egg farm and...


Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 12:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:07:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #188
In-Reply-To: <ca.728cc32.29ac6bfd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020226070553.01cddff8@192.168.0.1>

Lots of laws on the books that are not enforced.  Here in the PRM, the law 
for over 20 years has been, any violation of any firearm law (including 
possessing chemical mace with out a firearm permit) is a year in jail, no 
parole, no questions.

It's been enforced at most, five times.


At 11:41 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Hey Mr. Uhl, is this statute for real????
> >
> >  "A person commits a class 4 felony when he knowingly
> >  uses or intends to use armed force to prevent assault,
> >  rape, murder, or other attack upon himself or
> >  another."
> >  - --Illinois Revised Statutes, Chapter 38, Paragraph 24
>
>It wasn't when I was in Illinois ca. 1997 or so. Certainly it wasn't enforced
>if it was on the books.
>
>LKW

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 10:59:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:59:24 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202261250560.14472-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20226.025924.5B8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Well, if you can just "print" the program to a "PETSCII"<g> file and
>> zip *that* it'd be much simpler to convert. That way, we don't need an
>> emulator, just documentation.
>
>  That would require opening up the files. I'll have to experiemtn with
> that. The stock LIST command won'T work as they are compiled in basic
> forms.

If they are actually compiled, then what you have *is* machine
language. 

But if they are merely tokenized with some option to make them
unlistable (like GW-BASIC's SAVE "file",P option) they may be
recoverable.

> That I have to find tools to open them. Once that is done the new
> Jiffy Dos chip will work with the @p command to print it out to hard copy,
> or I can save the file and zip it. Going to push me into things I thought
> about doing but haven't tried yet.

Don't let me push you faster than you want to go.

>  FWIW: In another msg woy worte about ANSI minimal BASIC". Ther are only a
> few prgs that can do Ansi on the Commodore.

The "ANSI" here doesn't mean so-called "ANSI graphics". 

ANSI is the American National Standards Institute. one of their
standards for screen controls (X3.64?) is what so-called "ANSI
graphics" are *loosely* based upon.

ANSI "Minimal BASIC" is a standard for the BASIC language, and lists
what a "minimal" implementation of BASIC must have. There are *no*
graphics commands. No file access commands, not even any print
formatting commands.

I just did a quick search and the ANSI standard for "minimal" BASIC is
X3.60-1978. I couldn't find a keyword list though.

There are ANSI standards for most programming languages, btw. And the
"full" standard for BASIC was so different from what microcomputers
were using that it never really got anywhere. There are commercially
avialbe compilers for various systems that implement it, but ones that
implement something closer to Microsoft BASIC are far more common. 

To give you an idea of just *how* different it is, the comment marker
isn't '. It's \ or some such....

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 11:20:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:20:26 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202261238000.14472-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20226.032026.0e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Just be careful what you open the text file with. PET & Commodore
>> BASICs were *really* bad about using embedded characters (both "high
>> ASCII" and control) to do stuff.
>
>  That is what I meant about the Basic is PET. Standard CBM Basic has 256
> characters. <0-255> The term embedded I don't see often. Most I know call
> it invisible characters. If you are talking about the spaces. Such as
> CHR$(32) the actual CBM ascii for the space bar. Or do you mean the revese
> video ones for programming short cuts and colour colour changes?

Those are what I meant. 

TRS-80 programmers used to do that sort of thing too. Putting block
graphics characters into string constants used a lot less RAM than lots
of CHR$195)+CHR$(197)...

>> Another fun problem is character sets. PET/Commodore did *not* use
>> ASCII. They used something that was similar, but with odd changes (for
>> example, upper and lower case are swapped).
>
>  PET ASCII is vastly different and yet similiar from/to ascii of the time.
> Most notable are that upper and lower case are revesered when switching
> between the two forms of ascii. We also have a collection of keybaord
> graphics that can be used and they are in the PET ascii character set.

Most micros had that sort of thing. Even the IBM PC did. Windows has
lost most of them though.

> There is also the character for reverse video on and off. As an example in
> PET ascii the CHR$(92) is the brit cit pound sterling symbol. IIRC is is
> somewhere around 136 in ascii.

ASCII is 7 bit and only goes from 0-127. Many of the "extended ASCII"
sets used in micros put things like the pounds sterling sign in various
places. None match each other. 

> While the same string gives the inverse
> backslash in ascii. I heard that original ascii for a long time was just
> 128 characters. Don'T know if that is true or not.

ASCII is *still* only 128 characters. With CHR$(127) being a control
character, not a printable character, btw. This is how ASCII is
*defined*. There's a standards doc for it.

The various 8-bit character sets are mostly based on having 0-127 match
ASCII and then sticking other characters in the 128-255 range. I have
tables for a mere 2 dozen or so 8- bit character sets.

I also have tables for the dozen+ "national variants" which were ASCII
with various characters replaced with ones more useful to them. The UK
variant has (among other things) the # replaced with the pound sterling
symbol.

>> The Apple ][ was actually *better* about this than most early PCs. The
>> TRS-80 was rather worse.
>
>  Never worked with the Apple ][. Did sell the TRaSh 80s wehn they first
> came out. Was a chief tech for a local Radio Shack STore.

I translated some Apple Basic stuff to TRS-80. And I have a couple of
Franklin ACE 1200 (Apple II+ c;lones) in the other room.

>> BTW, if anybody has TRS-80 (Model I, III or 4) programs that need
>> translation, I've still got working systems that can probably run them.
>
>  Not in my collection. Though when the shop reopens I do get people
> dumping off TRS 80 units. Generally I don't take in anything hardware or
> software that isn't for the C= or Amiga. But if you want prgs and such. i
> can keep an eye out for you. I'm a solid C= only user.

I've got a huge box of stuff I have to do something with some day. As
well as lots of 5.25" floppies in several different formats (Model III,
Model 100, etc) that I ned to move basic programs and various data
files off of.

Including a bunch of Traveller utilities and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 14:19:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:19:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202260619350.17181-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:34:59 -0500
From: Samuel D. Weiss <samwise1@msn.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People

The Iron Dream was wonderfully warped.
Norman Spinrad is great.


Sam



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 14:26:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:26:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller
Message-ID: <20020226142615.88827.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

How many of you have ongoing GURPS Traveller
campaigns?

Have any of you used GURPS Traveller to run a TNE game?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 14:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:34:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT:  Final D&D Stats
Message-ID: <20020226143421.67503.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, I know it is off topic.  I also know that I said
I would keep the data.  Here is a brief rundown.  More
info on request.  (I also have an analysis of what
answers produce what results if anyone is interested.)

Race:
14  Elf
 5  Dwarf
 4  Half-Elf
 3  Halfling
 3  Human

Primary Class:
11  Bard
 9  Ranger
 4  Fighter
 4  Mage
 2  Thief
 1  Cleric

Secondary Class:
10  Ranger
 8  Bard
 5  Mage
 4  Fighter
 1  Druid
 1  Cleric
 1  Paladin

Alignment:
 2  Lawful Good
 2  Lawful Neutral
 0  Lawful Evil
14  Neutral Good
 4  True Neutral
 1  Neutral Evil
 4  Chaotic Good
 2  Chaotic Neutral
 2  Chaotic Evil

General Info:
  Most Common Class - Bard/Ranger - 7
                      Bard/Mage - 3
                      Ranger/Bard - 3

(I know that not all the numbers add up.  Some people
didn't include Race and some didn't include Secondary
Class.)

If you want any more detail, let me know.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 15:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:05:35 +0900
Subject: [TML] OT:  Final D&D Stats
In-Reply-To: <20020226143421.67503.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020226143421.67503.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <17715092207.20020227000535@greimann.de>

Oops, forgot to post mine:

I  played a staunch defender of the faith of dwarvenkind, Grimm of the
Iron Shild, protector of Dwarves, chosen of Gorm Gulthyn. (LN)

-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 15:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:27:06 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Can you say 'Battle Dress'
Message-ID: <F60MoTwpcNgPvGI6deN00017dab@hotmail.com>

Joseph R. Dietrich gave us an address for an article about artificial 
muscles; one of the scientists involved is quoted as saying...
"Imagine... the psychological damage it would wreak on a foe if we
had entire troops able to leap over 20-foot walls."

I had this vision of headless bodies on one side of the wall, with bodiless 
heads on the other shouting rude words and other harsh language...

ObTrav:  TNE uses the same (near as darnit) ruleset as Dark Conspiracy, 
no..?  Who needs CoC!

"Huh.  You go to pieces so fast, people get hit by the shrapnel!"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 15:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:48:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C7B318F.71CA1CA3@gci.net>
Message-ID: <3C7BAE39.3010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Peter Newman wrote:
> Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> 
>>I read just half a year ago in a Popular
>>Mechanics magazine about an exo skeleton that was
>>being made for the military and police. Science can
>>make muscles that look like tape, but going to Mars
>>and curing lag are just too much to ask. 
>>
> 
> A more recent article noted that hospitals and
> nursing home are interested in these as they will
> make it much easier for their staff to manage (lift)
> patients. By doubling or tripling the lifting capacity
> of the average orderly or nurses aid they can ensure
> that he/she can do this easily without much risk of
> (expensive to the employer) back problems.
> 
> ObTrav: When the rebels go to make their homemade Battle
> Dress they may end up getting their muscle frames from
> the health care industry not from the military or the 
> police.
> 

More likely it'll be the local Home Depot. That kind of gear makes sense 
in a setting like that, as well, no need to worry about running a 
customer down with a forklift.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 16:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:10:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
References: <9c.1b7ecc0a.29a92e45@aol.com> <3C7BD785.6434.143703B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C7BB374.3080505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2002, at 18:24, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'll stop now, but I can rave on for hours about the poor state
>>of user interface design in the vast majority of RPG programmes,
>>so watch out!
>>
> 
> Frank, the majority of *all* programmers UI design skills leave a lot 
> to be desired (says Andrew who is redesigning some truely 
> shocking UI at the moment: imagine two *totally* unrelated data 
> streams being displayed in the same text box without scroll bars, 
> starting in the middle and going both ways at once).

OW! My EYES!! I've seen bad UI's, but that's going way out of the way to 
be bad. That's MST3K bad!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 16:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:52:26 +0800
Subject: [TML] Norman Spinrad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202260619350.17181-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020227005152.03f07960@localhost>

Journals of the Plague Years is Very Good/Near Mint.

- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 16:51:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:51:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C7B318F.71CA1CA3@gci.net> <3C7BAE39.3010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7BBD20.B05E029@premier.net>



Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Peter Newman wrote:

<<snip>>
> >
> > ObTrav: When the rebels go to make their homemade Battle
> > Dress they may end up getting their muscle frames from
> > the health care industry not from the military or the
> > police.
> >
> 
> More likely it'll be the local Home Depot. That kind of gear makes sense
> in a setting like that, as well, no need to worry about running a
> customer down with a forklift.
> 
Note that _101 Corporations_ does mention the Famille Spofulam Light
Export Forklift (top speed 404 kilometers per hour)....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 17:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:09:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #189
Message-ID: <152.98f7085.29ad1b41@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/26/2002 10:55:29 AM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> Have any of you used GURPS Traveller to run a TNE game?
> 

I use some of the GURPS books to flesh out my classic Traveller game. Books 
used are First In, Far Trader and the Alien books.  the background stuff come 
in handy 


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multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 17:17:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:17:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <20225.162541.8m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202260916260.17913-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > To each his own, I suppose.  I play games to escape from the nastiness
> > of life, not to explore it.  It's the same reason I prefer comedies to
> > drama: life is bad enough without spending two hours being torn apart
> > watching some family cope with the loss of its beloved son.  I'd much
> > rather laugh at some sight gags, some slapstick and a few pretty
> > girls.
> 
> Alas, far too much "comedy" these days (especially on TV) is acutely
> *painful* to watch. At least if you have any empathy with the *victim*
> of the humor. And yes, they are victims, even if no one is deliberately
> plotting their embarassment/humiliation. 
> 
> I generally switch channels about the time I see that some poor
> unsuspecting character is about to get shat upon by the universe due to
> things he doesn't know about.

Does anyone remember what RAH said about comedy and laughter in "Stranger
in a Strange Land"?

Most comedy is about something that's not very funny when you think about
it.  This is one reason I don't care for it.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 17:30:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:30:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] How many potential NPC Travellers in a star system?
Message-ID: <F42ufyWOxbCJnEMzAUo00008d1b@hotmail.com>

How many Starship Engineers can dance on the head
of a frontier mining colony?

Or, to put it another way, has anyone made
up interesting methods to figure out how many
people in any given planetary population are:
1) Willing to hire out to passing starships; and
2) Have useful skills for hire?

A ballpark equation, something like:

(StarportModifier) + (PopulationModifier) + (OtherModifiers)
                          =
       (Total Potential NPC Travellers In-Sysem)

is what I have in mind, with some explanation of what
kind of thinking is behind whatever equation you've come
up with.

I'm not looking, at this point, at what exact skills, services,
and details each potential NPC Traveller has...just an
aggragate.  But if someone has ideas in this direction,
I'm sure they could be interesting as well.

Any takers?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:08:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
In-Reply-To: <3C7BAE39.3010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIELDCDAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


Just make sure the users walkman isn't tuned into skinhead or thrash metal!



------- Original Message ---------

More likely it'll be the local Home Depot. That kind of gear makes sense 
in a setting like that, as well, no need to worry about running a 
customer down with a forklift.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:13:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:13:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <E16fdKL-00056F-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOELDCDAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Chuckle, but no keyboard kill.
Better luck next time.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Tuesday, 26 February, 2002 03:52
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar


Laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> Volume of a sphere is four-thirds times pi times the cube of the
> radius (4/3 * pi * r^3).

You know, when I saw the subject line and the first few lines of the 
post, I misread the subject line as "Let ovoid a flamewar".

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 17:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:07:36 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44B4@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20226.090736.7H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone who just wants to tell stories and have fun, regardless of the
> physics involved. This does not mean that the system should have no
> versimilitude - but that's very different from realism or complexity. 

The problem is that youi *will* get players who get upset at
inconsistencies. And the best way to avoid that is to have some way of
*getting* (whether by looking them up, or by a *consistent* method of
generating them) details about things. 

Otherwise you start having to answer questions about why this vehicle
or weapon is better than *that* one with "just because".

True, in the end that *is* all there is for a game set in the future.
But without a consistent, *detailed* framework *somewhere*, the seams
are ggoing to show badly. 

> Well, I belief the origional statement I was replaying to was that you CANT
> roleplay without this answer. I'm just saying that for some of us, it's
> very possible. 

Only if you never run into a situation where detailed info about
something is needed. Something that relates to the "how does it work"
stuff. 

A really good storyteller can wing it for a long time. Until he either
forgets something the players haven't, or gets a player who wants to
"tinker" with things. 

>>>>>>Not sure I follow your point here.  What I think you're saying is a
>>>>>>gearhead system, by definition, involves lots of factors.  The simple
>>>>>>system, by definition, involves very few factors.
>
> That's not it. I think your looking at it as "lots" vs. "few". And that's
> not it. The distinction between the gearhead system and the simple system
> (to me) is "most of the realistic" vs. "the right" factors. 
>
> The gearhead system has all the factors that are realistic. The simple
> system has all the factors that need game mechanics, but none of the
> factors that dont. 

Care to try listing factors that *aren't* needed? Players *will* come
up with off the wall ideas and approachs. And suddenly you are dealing
with stuff you never expected to. 

Worse, odds are that such players *will* know enough to be able to spot
mistakes in basic science or engineering. 

With a system based on "gearhead" stuff, but with the details tucked
out of sight, the simple rules won't have that sort of errors, and when
they do something that requires the more detailed rules, they;'ll be
there and be consistent with the simple rules. You won't have to make
them up as you go.

Sort of like a player in a 1930s "pulp" type game wanting to check out
some egyptian artifacts or some such. You can make up details, or you
can look stuff up to avoid making stupid mistakes like having forests
in ancient Egypt.

Better yet would be a sourcebook with that kind of info for the game,
if it was needed. 

> My whole point is that a mathematical approach is mostly the wrong approach
> anyway. Though having attempting to simply volume/mass equations myself,
> I'll admit there has to be an underlying strength to the formulas. Steve
> Jackson could do it if he wanted to!

Sorry, but math is based on the way the world works. 

The details can be hidden most of the time, but they need to be there
for when someone goes poking, or when they try to push the limits on
something.

> Exactly, and I just happen to think that the Gearheads have plenty of ship
> design systems that work for them! Or the opposite, which is that they will
> NEVER have enough ship design systems to make them happy! ;]
>
> But either way, the Storytellers don't seem to have as many choices - since
> Book 2, High Guard and QSDS dont cover ALL types of Traveller ships, they
> dont count IMHO. 

I'm going to be blunt. 

If you want to design ships DETAILS MATTER.

As does compatability. Some of us have *lived* this. 

It's a real pain when it turns out that the ships in an adventure can't
be built by *any* of the systems around at the time.

This tends to show up when the players want to make modifications to
the ship, and the GM discovers that the damned ship isn't legal under
any constructon system he can find. So he can't figure out whether the
mods are possible nor how much room or power they will take. 

Sure, he could pick numbers out of the air. But sooner or later that'll
backfire. Inconsistencies will creep in.

>>>>>>>>No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with
> that. Make
>>>>>>>>>it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
>>>>>>>>>incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into
> account. 
>>>>>>>>Hmmm.  I think sooner or later it will.  But how long it will take
> will
>>>>>>>>depends on how many ships you design in your lifetime.  
>
> How many games require a seperate Arm Strength from the Strength stat? Not
> that many (but there *are* a few!). 

And what we are saying is that for situations where you may *need* a
seperate "arm strength" that the system be set up (behind the scenes)
so that you can get consistent arm (and leg) strength by trying to work
backwards. 

You won't necessarily get the same number as if you'd used the
"detailed" system and then used the detailed rules to get "strength" by
combining "arm strength" and "leg strength". But you'll get a number
that isn't out of line. 

Think it's silly? Ok, if you don't have the "hidden details", what do
you do to the strength score if the character gets an arm cut off?

It's a bit of a coontrived example, but I hope it shows that when
someone asks a weird but plausible question, those hidden detials could
be useful.

> Exactly! But frankly, I see this happening more with the gearheads than the
> storytellers. My favorite is the story of the guy who stormed out of a
> Traveller game because he couldn't abide by an ice-covered asteroid! Of
> course, science later proved that wasn't such a wild idea after all.....

What do you mean "later"? That's a case of *ignorance*. Because it's
never been "impossible". 

An ice covered asteroid orbiting near Earth would have me inquiring as
to what was going on. Because the ice couldn't last long in that
environment. 

Farther out, say by jupiter or Saturn, it wouldn't be at all
noteworthy. 

You can have swamps next to deserts too. But you'd better have the
explanation worked out. Because *someone* will ask. 

> But I don't think a *perfect* system is possible. I dont WANT a system that
> works well for Gearheads AND works well for Storytellers. I want a system
> that works well for Storytellers! 

The problem is that isn't possible unless your *players* are the right
type. Get any with "gearheadedness" and you'll have problems.

> Given the choice between both systems - I'd chose the one most likely to
> want to be played by *other* Storytellers!

And frankly, I don't believe that the *best* storyteller can remain
consistent when dealing with matters the players know more about than
he does.

> A good set of rules will also do other things to make people
> happy, which are unrelated to this.  Being all inclusive is not the sole
> criterium for judging a set of rules.  Therefore, it is not necessarily
> true that more inclusive equals better rules.

Define "better".

More *generally useful* is what most of us are going for. We'd rather
restricted our "winging it" to stuff that won't turn around and bite us
on the ass later because we overlooked something.

> I've tried to give specific examples of this for help in those attempting a
> 'simpler' system than the ones we've seen so far, but the bottom line is
> that I doubt anyone who WANTS ONLY a simple system, beleifs that it's
> possible for 1 system to work for both. No would a Storyteller (the
> opposite of a gearhead) want to use such a system. 

By its nature a "simple" system will have glossed over details. No way
to avoid it. 

> So whether it's possible is irrelevant if it's not desirable by its
> audience. 

Ah, but the "audience" isn't merely you, the "storyteller". It's also
your *players*. And if they want more details, then what?

There's a car in a scenario set in current times. What do you do if it
suddenly becomes important what sort of mileage it gets? (Say the
players are running away from someplace and can't stop for gas).

Sure, you can wing it. Then six months later, they are in a similar
situation and a player will want to know how come this time they could
drive farther (or not as far). 

Or one of them will want to use the fuel to make a bomb, or a fire... 

> What I'm saying is that the gearheads seem to have plenty of systems to
> choose from. FF&S1, FF&S2, GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Traveller, High Guard,
> etc. 

The problem is that most of those are inconsistent with each other, or
inconsistent with physics, or terribly imbalanced.

> But there doesn't seem to be too many systems for Storytellers. Book 2. 

Which is ok as far as it goes. Alas, you can't build big ships with it,
nor is it consistent with far too many of small ship designs available.

What I want to know is why you are objecting to a system that could be
used to create the "building blocks" you slap together in a book 2 type
system? 

Because *that* is what the gearheads want to have.

>>>>>>>(i.e., you think it is impossible to write rules that include both
> the
>>>>>>>gearhead and the simple choices?)
>
> Yes. I do think it's impossible to do that. That's like saying that you can
> devise a "sport" that will appeal to all football, baseball, basketball and
> soccer fans and they will give up their other games to play this one
> particular "Sport" that suits them all!

Nope. Not the same thing at all.

Think of LEGOs. You can build a lot of things with a set of them. But
there are things you can't build. Get a set with different pieces and
you can build stuff you couldn't build before. But it's still *simple*
to build stuff with them.

The gearheads want a system that will let them design those new pieces
such that they'll fit with the others, and won't break as you put them
together or take them apart. That requires some very complex
engineering as does making sure that the pieces can actually be molded.

But *you* don't have to worry about those engineering details. 

You *do* have to worry about them if you want a new part to your specs.
And you have to accept that sometimes, you'll get told, "we can't make
a part like that".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:19:07 -0700
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
References: <200202242003.g1OK3wcP005888@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C7B318F.71CA1CA3@gci.net> <3C7BAE39.3010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C7BBD20.B05E029@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C7BD19B.1040305@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Peter Newman wrote:
>>
> 
> <<snip>>
> 
>>>ObTrav: When the rebels go to make their homemade Battle
>>>Dress they may end up getting their muscle frames from
>>>the health care industry not from the military or the
>>>police.
>>>
>>>
>>More likely it'll be the local Home Depot. That kind of gear makes sense
>>in a setting like that, as well, no need to worry about running a
>>customer down with a forklift.
>>
>>
> Note that _101 Corporations_ does mention the Famille Spofulam Light
> Export Forklift (top speed 404 kilometers per hour)....
> 
> 

Lemme guess, it has two plasma cannon^h^h^h^h^h welders and rocket 
assisted aisle cleaners.

"Cleanup on Aisle 10, please!"

<FWOOOOOOsssshhh BOOOOOOM!>

"EEEeeewww! Now we need cleanups on Aisles 5 through 20 inclusive.!"


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:49:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:49:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020226142615.88827.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020226134018.00a18100@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:26 AM 02/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>How many of you have ongoing GURPS Traveller
>campaigns?
>
>Have any of you used GURPS Traveller to run a TNE game?

I am currently running a GURPS MILIEU ZERO campaign set in year 1 of the 
Third Imperium.  Players are trying to find out why their captain was 
assassinated, and why their chief engineer was apparently killed by 
accident in a terrorist attack.  Players are also discovering that politics 
can get ugly when the old governmental regime starts to conflict with 
Cleon's government to the extent that the players now no longer trust INI 
operatives, and know that the are being watched by the Grand Senate's 
ex-head of investigations, along with the ISS operatives, along with the 
Mafia like underground...

The thrust of the game is the recovery of an old database core from a ship 
dating sometime into the time of the long night.  Said Data core contains 
information that may or may not validate Emperor Cleon's claim to 
legitimacy as an heir to the last emperor of the second imperium...

Currently, the acting captain of the group is in hot water due to the fact 
that after showing up at the blast site of a terrorist attack (which 
claimed the life of the ship's chief engineer), the player stepped out of 
"character" and tried to investigate other dead bodies lying about in the 
blast zone.  At that point, he was firmly arrested, interrogated for 48 
hours straight, and then let go with a tail on him to determine if he 
really *is* connected with the attack on the transportation hub.  ISS has 
noted that the players are being tailed or guarded (not sure which as yet) 
by the movers and shakers of the grand senate - and that does not bode well 
for imperial attention on their actions...  ;)

                    Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 17:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:59:56 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202181432_MC3-F27A-44BE@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20226.095956.8m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>FF&S2 was for T4. FF&S1 was the one that went with TNE.
>>>
>
> I never got around to getting that one!
>
>>>>Gah. That's not a sufficient answer at all for many, many groups. 
>>>>Besides half the time it'll be asked way back when the character's 
>>>>first arming up and you have no idea whether it'll be better for the 
>>>>story for the gun to be concealable or not.
>
> Player: Can I hide my gun under my coat?
> GM: No, they'll automatically spot it if you try. 
> Player: Sorry, that's not a sufficient answer.
>
> This doesn't sound like a rule problem to me!
>
> Whatever rules you decide to use to make that decision are going to be
> arbitrary. Your just setting an artificial level of 'what amount of
> arbitrary' you agree to suspend your disbelief. 
>
> Your going to pick the same rules before it happens are you'll pick when it
> happens. Your decision on which rules to allow IS the decision on what's
> best for the story, no matter when you make it. 
>
>>>>Sure. I see your point. I just think that simple or not so simple a 
>>>>design system should cough up plenty of numbers - they're easier to 
>>>>ignore than add later.
>
> I can accept that. I think we're actually talking about two different
> thing. I'm talking about how simple it is to create those numbers. NOT how
> many numbers the system spits out. 
>
> But at the same time, some numbers are harder to ignore than other. That's
> also a story-based decision that you can make well before a game. The
> stories I tell are easier if those numbers aren't there because they can
> distract the players into using the machines instead of their characters. 

So, they players shouldn't have the numbers handy unless their
characters have a reason to know them.

> Most sci-fi dramas make the same choice. No matter how good the technology
> is - its always the characters decisions that drive the story. 

Not always. Sometimes the story is about how the technology affects the
characters. And there are excellent stories written about that sort of
thing.

>>>>> meters. But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use
>>>>> Starfuries because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma
>>>>> Projectors!" One is good for the story. The other is bad for the
> story. 
>>>>>>>>>>To me the last one's embarrasing - it implies I screwed up
> somewhere.
>
> I hear that some Star Trek 'nitpickers' actually watch the show like that -
> looking for technical inconsistences. To me, that audience is the
> embarrasment - not the director!

It gets hard to suspend your disbelief when someone fills the back of
a station wagon with a layer of gold bars a foot deep and then drives
off normally. 

(hint: a one foot cube of gold weighs over 1200 lbs)

Many a science fiction program makes errors just as dumb if not dumber.

Like the movie I saw on the sciFi channel a week or so back. They had
"artifical gravity" on a space station and described it in "detail" as
being a magnetic field working on metal stips in the crew's clothes. 

Then they showed someone pouring coffee into an open cup....

They'd also referred to part of the station as supplyng "micron
gravity" for delicate research.

This is a case of screwing up the stiry by going into *too much* detail
about stuff that's irrelevant, or where it *is* relevant, not bothering
to get someone with a clue to go over the script. 

Star Trek and most TV SF is a *bad* example, btw, They have too many
stories where the problems are solved by a made up technical gimmick.
And usually one that they later in the sries have to make of more stuff
to explain why they can't use it to get out of *this* episode's jam.

That's why us "gearheads" prefer to strick to real science as far as is
possible/practical. It avoids that sort of mess. If it won't work this
week, it won't work next week. And it it worked last week, it'll work
this week.

You also don't have to explain things like how a magnetic field can
affect coffee. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:01:13 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0-6
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKECDCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKECDCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3c7cd388.462447@post.demon.co.uk>

"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

>OK a very belated (I've just caught up with it) well done on this, I like
>what I have seen so far and would like to see more.

Thanks - it's mostly a case now of me reorganising my notes into
bite-sized chunks suitable for posting.  Knowing there are one or two
people out there who liked the earlier sections gives me more
motivation to get round to doing it... :-)


>As a TNE GM (and fanatic) a lot of the details are hazy but it's the history
>and basics of astrography that I enjoy.  I loved your history of Vincennes
>(btw how much of this is purely yours and how much canon) 

The post labelled Part 1 was canon - everything else was from my
warped imagination, though obviously extrapolated from known facts.

For example, we know from canon that Vincennes itself is an only
marginally habitable world, but the same star system contains an
agricultural world called Paven which has major exports of foodstuffs.
Presumably Paven is a much more attractive Earthlike world, so why
isn't it the main world of the system?  For my history I decided that
Paven _was_ the original planet settled, and the system's centre of
gravity moved to Vincennes gradually.  That also let me set up the
tension between the two worlds, with all its scope for Traveller
adventures and character motivation, based loosely on the analogy of
the England-Ireland colonial situation.  Plus, I could also get in the
running joke about Vilani cannibalism...

Similarly, I wanted to explain how Vincennes became so technologically
advanced, and I'd already rejected the "lost colony of an advanced
civilisation" and "homeworld of a hyperintelligent minor race" ideas
as too clichd.  That left the simple solution that the planet's been
settled for a _long_ time, it has a stable government that
deliberately encourages technological development, and its population
and economy have reached the critical mass needed to support rapid
expansion.  That also implies that they have very un-Vilani views on
progress (hence me making Vincennes a Rule of Man colony).  The
government is a "Charismatic dictatorship" which sounds too temporary
to give me the continuity I was looking for, so I stretched the
definition to make it an absolute monarchy which enjoys strong public
support.  Finally, here we have a technologically advanced, high
population world full of brash, forward-looking Solomani ruled by an
effective dictator - it goes without saying that they're going to come
into conflict with the Imperium at regular intervals, so I just used
my imagination to fill in the details...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:01:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
In-Reply-To: <3C7BBD20.B05E029@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014750113.5627.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:

> Note that _101 Corporations_ does mention the Famille Spofulam Light
> Export Forklift (top speed 404 kilometers per hour)....

Of course, any world with a high law level will have definitions of what counts
as 'civilian' (this definition will vary depending on local needs, but in
general high speed is not important in warehouses, so the FS design probably
wouldn't qualify).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:10:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202260916260.17913-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <003901c1bef9$3b098ba0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:17 AM
Kiri Aradia Morgan said,

> Does anyone remember what RAH said about comedy and laughter in "Stranger
> in a Strange Land"?
>
> Most comedy is about something that's not very funny when you think about
> it.  This is one reason I don't care for it.

Most humour is cruel, in one way or another.  It always reminds me of
clowns.  They are creepy and evil and all that, but the basic premise behind
clowns is laughing at and enjoying the bumbling of some funny looking
person.

I think some of that can be done nobly, making yourself look bad to make
others feel better, kind of a social falling on your sword.  But
institutionalized, and done making others look bad can be kind of sick.

Then again, maybe that is too much over thinking and all that.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age
eighteen." -Albert Einstein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:28:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:28:46 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEGHHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20226.102846.8u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
>> Agreed, most modern comedy makes me cringe.
> <snip>
>
> I don't mind actual comedy, they're actors after all, they're
> _playing_ at being victims,

That's why I mentioned "empathy". It *hurts* watching someone do
something that emotionally painful.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:23:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:23:47 PST
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <3C7B2D50.3802467A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20226.102347.5r4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> This assumes that you *know* integral calc.
>
> Considering that most university undergrads learn calculus 
> while trying to destroy their livers virtually simultaneously,
> it's not that big an assumption.
>
> Some elements of integral calc are hard, like trig substitution,
> but really, the only people who can't integrate are those who have
> never tried.

The last math course I had was "computer algebra" back in 1974. During
my first (and only) year of college. 

Back in high school I'd figured out some calc, but strictly on my own.
and thru lack of practice, I lost that long ago. 

I could still attempt to write a program to do brute force integration.
That is, treat the solid as a stack of thin cylinders and sum their
volume. Ugly, but doable.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:14:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202260916260.17913-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3C7BDE83.B76EB243@premier.net>



Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Alas, far too much "comedy" these days (especially on TV) is acutely
> > *painful* to watch. At least if you have any empathy with the *victim*
> > of the humor. And yes, they are victims, even if no one is deliberately
> > plotting their embarassment/humiliation.
> >
> > I generally switch channels about the time I see that some poor
> > unsuspecting character is about to get shat upon by the universe due to
> > things he doesn't know about.
> 
> Does anyone remember what RAH said about comedy and laughter in "Stranger
> in a Strange Land"?

Indeed I do, or at least the gist of it (sadly, I do not currently have
a copy of _Stranger_).
> 
> Most comedy is about something that's not very funny when you think about
> it.  This is one reason I don't care for it.

And this is one reason why my preferred form of humor is the pun.  With
puns, the "fall guy" in the humor is language itself.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:54:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Looksist people
In-Reply-To: <OE51BQhExkiyPoHZgzD0000093d@hotmail.com>
References: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <3C7B3010.502B8A10@gci.net> <OE51BQhExkiyPoHZgzD0000093d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8a197620e44@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:01 AM -0800 2/26/02, Jeff Yin wrote:
>  > ObTrav: To what degree is appearance universal? Can a human
>>  really even tell if an Aslan or a Virush or a Jgd-il-jgd is
>>  'Beautiful' to other members of its species.
>
>
>What's more, would there be any aslans/vargrs modeled toward intentional
>human attractiveness?  I mean, anthropomorphic art (the furry fetish) is
>around today.

I Actually made up a Vargr (who I never played since Doug's game 
never started :-) who had attractiveness with the limitation that it 
only had full effect on a Vargr.  On humans it had some, but lesser, 
effect.

Some of the standards of beauty are fairly universal (lack of flaws, 
symmetry, etc.) and are thought to stem from a desire for healthy 
mates.  Some of that humans would appreciate.  But then you get 
culturally derived aspects of the standard, the fact that a human who 
hasn't been around Vargr most of the time won't pick up a lot of the 
details, etc. which all implies that the human reaction to Vargr 
beauty will be less than a Vargr one.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 19:58:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:58:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020226142615.88827.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020226142615.88827.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8a1994b8188@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:26 AM -0800 2/26/02, Gonzalez wrote:
>How many of you have ongoing GURPS Traveller
>campaigns?

I have one that went for quite a while but is now in "once in a while" mode.

>
>Have any of you used GURPS Traveller to run a TNE game?

Not me.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:05:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Evil GMs
Message-ID: <OF84D0DB4D.E4022A9D-ON85256B6C.0069D198@pheaa.org>


Well i would like to drop my .02 CrImps in this discussion.

As a GM i never place my Characters in a "No Win" Situation. you see i am a
Story teller and the player Characters are the pivot of the story. what
happens in my story is directly related to what they do or don't do. That
does not mean they can not Die. It Just means i do not go out of my way to
give them trouble.

Example last Saturday. group was trying to find a person who got separated
from the group. this place is full of dinosaurs according to the forgotten
realms setting we are playing in. (one reason i hate canned worlds.) anyway
they have a run in with some nasty Utah Raptors(who probably should not be
in this type of topographical region any way). Unlike their previous GM i
try to make the mobs work together to get dinner like they should. 2 attack
from the left. one skulks over to the right and then charges in on the
Halfling in the group.

this was some great gaming. the player who was playing the Halfling was not
paying as close attention to what was going on. he was discussing some rule
with someone else. he turned around and saw the Dino miniature right behind
him. the thing had dashed out from jungle with a charge attack. he actually
screamed in character. it was priceless. everyone really complemented chuck
on his playing of the Halfling that night.

only through the team work of the group was the Halfling kept from being
actually carried off in and turned into Dino Dinner. Halfling walked away
with 2 hit points. I actually thought the Halfling was dead. the dino got
some very good rolls. at one point i was actually wondering if i had pitted
the group against more than they could handle.

Personal feeling is I'm a much better Traveller gm than i am a D&D gm. it
seems harder to keep track of what a group of lvl 4 or 5 chars can handle
NPC/Monster wise.

that said this group use to have a GM who loved to just screw the players
over. in fact in the second time i played the game. he just out right
killed all the players. just for the fun of it seemed to me. that was the
second and last time ill play a character in a game with this person GMing.
they came to a town that was full of undead. they had to fight for their
lives. they worked well together and won. in the morning the local "army"
showed up headed up by a few female clerics. the army arrested the people
for "murdering" the town. took them away and hung them. for some reason the
clerics could not tell the piles of dead where ghouls and zombies and such.
funny part was i was never able to do anything but sit back and watch
during the whole undead fight. yet my char was the first one hung. go
figure 8P

gms reason for doing this? because he felt like it. This to me is not fun.
having no chance is to much like real life and i don't play games to deal
with real life. i use games to escape it.

anyway my .02 CrImps


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:09:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:09:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Evil GMs (longish)
In-Reply-To: <200202250259.g1P2xBxJ005797@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020226201210.IPVA277.dorsey@link>

But if Kelly St. Clair were indeed Mikie, then Mikie would have done
different things to begin with and the "Evil GM" events that Tod described
may not have happened to begin with.  And probably the same player using a
different character would have made things go very differently, as well.
It's all in the role playing.

You can judge for yourself whether the Mikie character that Tod Glenn
referenced was merely a victim of a sadistic referee, or was roleplaying in
a roleplaying game.  There are very extensive notes from each game session
played over the last couple of years, all archived at
www.travellercentral.com for our viewing pleasure.  Read them and see what
happened to Mikie.

As a player in Tod's current play-by-email, my experience so far is that I
do have at least partial control over the events in my character's life.
Like 99% of game referees, he populates the game universe and controls the
NPCs _and_ he also seems to determine a plot or storyline that will involve
the player characters.  I get the feeling that characters get quite a lot
of latitude in how they choose to deal with events in the storyline.  If
you read the game notes from Mikie's game, I think you'll see many
different ways that other players would probably have taken the Mikie
character.  The other players would have had different outcomes.

I know my character in Tod's game is acting very differently from most
other characters I've played in the past.  It may get him killed or worse,
but it is really fun to be faithful to my vision of the character and see
where that leads.  In fact, it is so much fun that I would be very
disappointed if the character does get killed and I don't get to play him
anymore.  But, sooner or later, I will have explored the character so
thoroughly that he starts losing interest for me.  That usually happens
later, not sooner.

Different view of the same thing.  I have a character that I've been
playing for years in a bastardized Traveller game a friend of mine runs.
That character is still only very sketchily realized after all these years.
 I like him, and want to develop him, but there are various factors
discouraging that.  The main reason.  This bastardized Traveller game has
no map, no future history, no fleshed-out details that help me visualize
the world my character lives in--the world that shaped him into who he was
at the start of our game.  Actually there is a star map, but I've only seen
it twice.  I don't think there are any world surface maps.  The future
history is probably pretty extensive, but the referee _wants_ it to remain
mostly secret.  In making this point, it really brings home to me how much
I like having a canonical Traveller.  There is a living universe for our
characters to be in, and this is good*.


Another reason for my character in this friend's game being rather skeletal
is the nature of the other players.  They're really not interested in
fleshing out and inhabiting a roleplayed character, they just want to see
what adventure our friend has mapped out for us tonight.

And yes, my friend's plots don't leave much latitude for the characters'
actions to alter the storyline.  Despite his loud and frequent
proclamations that we always defy any attempts he makes to plan how to
handle things after the beginning of the session.  He still runs a very fun
game, with lots of cinematic action and lots of different plot ideas, and
the bits of his universe that we perceive are full of intrigue and mystery
and swashbuckling.  In fact, he is actually one of the best referees I've
ever gamed with.  As long as you keep your expectations as a player in line
with the type of game you're playing.

I started writing this just to let you all know you can look at Mikie's
adventures in Tod Glenn's game for yourselves to decide whether the referee
had crossed that blurry line or not between doing mean things to PCs or
running a game that PCs do things in.  Then I went on to make some points
about the difference between roleplaying a character and merely pulling the
character's strings.  And how fully the entire game universe itself is
"roleplayed" by the rules and the referee has a similar effect.  Players
feel like their characters are living in a world where they can control or
at least influence their own destinies if the world _seems_ real.  Sketchy
universe makes for sketchy PCs makes for everyone feeling like they're just
pulling puppet strings instead of living in a dynamic world with infinite
possibilites.  Referees who run highly predetermined
storylines/plots/scenarios create a puppet universe, referees who merely
introduce situations and then respond to the characters' actions are at the
other end of that spectrum**.


I guess I have two main conclusions from my little essay above.
Roleplaying all facets of a game as opposed to just describing things and
rolling dice makes a huge difference to whether the players feel they have
control of their futures.  The referee's approach to how closely they wish
to follow a predetermined plot or storyline also hugely influences this.
That second point is pretty much Obvious Too Even The Most Casual Of
Observers, but I like to think I explored it from a relatively fresh
viewpoint.  The first conclusion was a little more intriguing and is full
of many subtler ideas, such as the notion that the rules themselves are a
kind of roleplaying.

One of the less obvious parts of my first conclusion is that any RPG that
people engage in has four different entities.  The degree to which each
entity is fully realized and roleplayed is a value on a spectrum between
"fully fleshed out and believable" and "roll your dice, move your mice".
Add up the 'believability quotient' of each of these entities and you get a
value that indicates how much the players feel they can determine their own
futures.  The different entities within the game are:  the rule system; the
descriptions of places and things and events; the referee; each player.
Did I leave anything out?

--Laning, doing roleplaying games as collaborative fiction since 1975
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

*  The LandGrab helps hugely with this also.  A different inspiration from
each contributor for each world, each setting.  The degree to which a
LandGrabber remains believably within canon is the measure of how useful
that particular system is to me.  I'm definitely not a Canon Nazi, I just
don't want to have to reinvent major parts of MTU when a particularly
deviant LandGrabbed world has obvious incompatibilities with the rest of
the universe.
** My biggest complaint with almost all of the GDW adventures is the same
as with most adventures published for most games:  plots/storylines are too
predetermined.  I happen to love 'The Traveller Adventure' but it suffers
from this failing, too.  If you set any group composed from a couple of
dozen of my most favorite roleplaying companions loose in the 'The
Traveller Adventure', then we'd very, very, very quickly depart from the
scheduled plotline.  You'd need some really heavyhanded stuff from the
referee to keep us within the book.  The adventures were mostly useful for
contributing background information about different worlds, contributing
scenario ideas, and contributing useful NPCs.  Also, many of them made fun
reading.  :->

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 at 17:08:35 -0800, Kelly St.Clair <kellys@efn.org> typed:
>
>> > Two can play that game.
>> > If I were Mikie, that would be one very, very dead cabal.
>> > Preferably from a mix of kiloton-yield nukes.

>>
>>Hard to kill someone when you don't know who they are.  Mikie was left with
>>no one to retaliate against.  And to what end.  It wouldn't bring back
>>Theresa.
>
>There is a fine line between "evil" (in jest) GMing and screwing the PCs 
>with no recourse or hope of victory.  From the players' side of the table, 
>this line often blurs into invisibility.
>
>Maybe your players keep coming back, Mr. Glenn; masochists do exist.  I 
>would, and have, quit a game that consisted of only tragedy and no-win 
>situations.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020226134018.00a18100@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020226201452.90368.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

That sounds like a real cool game.
High level stuff though don't you think?
I mean putting the characters in a position to prove
or disprove Cleon I's claim to the thrown?

That would throw these guys into some serious trouble
with those for and against supporting Cleon I.

I smell dead PC's in the making!

Good luck, too bad I can't join your game.

--- Hal <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:
> At 06:26 AM 02/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >How many of you have ongoing GURPS Traveller
> >campaigns?
> >
> >Have any of you used GURPS Traveller to run a TNE
> game?
> 
> I am currently running a GURPS MILIEU ZERO campaign
> set in year 1 of the 
> Third Imperium.  Players are trying to find out why
> their captain was 
> assassinated, and why their chief engineer was
> apparently killed by 
> accident in a terrorist attack.  Players are also
> discovering that politics 
> can get ugly when the old governmental regime starts
> to conflict with 
> Cleon's government to the extent that the players
> now no longer trust INI 
> operatives, and know that the are being watched by
> the Grand Senate's 
> ex-head of investigations, along with the ISS
> operatives, along with the 
> Mafia like underground...
> 
> The thrust of the game is the recovery of an old
> database core from a ship 
> dating sometime into the time of the long night. 
> Said Data core contains 
> information that may or may not validate Emperor
> Cleon's claim to 
> legitimacy as an heir to the last emperor of the
> second imperium...
> 
> Currently, the acting captain of the group is in hot
> water due to the fact 
> that after showing up at the blast site of a
> terrorist attack (which 
> claimed the life of the ship's chief engineer), the
> player stepped out of 
> "character" and tried to investigate other dead
> bodies lying about in the 
> blast zone.  At that point, he was firmly arrested,
> interrogated for 48 
> hours straight, and then let go with a tail on him
> to determine if he 
> really *is* connected with the attack on the
> transportation hub.  ISS has 
> noted that the players are being tailed or guarded
> (not sure which as yet) 
> by the movers and shakers of the grand senate - and
> that does not bode well 
> for imperial attention on their actions...  ;)
> 
>                     Hal
> 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:17:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:17:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <20020226201755.65196.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: knightsky@juno.com
...snip...
> with none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to
> Virus.  
...snip...
> ("Virus?  What Virus?  Screw the Virus!")
...snip.

<sarcasm>
Wow,  Two flaim baits in one post.  I haven't seen
that since the last near c rock debate.
</sarcasm>

Back to the meat of the post.  I have to agree (except
with the Virus comments).  I think the good parts of
MT are/were the supplements.  Of course, I was
introduced to Traveller in MT, so my first look at the
3-book set was in awe and wonder.

I've had a similar reaction to CT.  I recently
purchased the Reprints of Books 0-8 and I'm now seeing
first hand what I've heard so many talk about for so
long.  I only had brief, minor glimpses of the origins
of Traveller, but now, I am getting it all.  All I can
say is that it is even more obvious why so many of us
enjoy this game so much.  There is more thought put
into the products that are produced for Traveller than
in nearly any other entertainment medium.  And it
shows.

Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:22:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Evil GMs (longish)
In-Reply-To: <20020226201210.IPVA277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B8A12E6F.1629%mole@solsec.org>

on 2/26/02 12:09 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> ** My biggest complaint with almost all of the GDW adventures is the same
> as with most adventures published for most games:  plots/storylines are too
> predetermined.  I happen to love 'The Traveller Adventure' but it suffers
> from this failing, too.  If you set any group composed from a couple of
> dozen of my most favorite roleplaying companions loose in the 'The
> Traveller Adventure', then we'd very, very, very quickly depart from the
> scheduled plotline.

In our GM's universe this is called "Following the Warbot". When characters
depart from a given storyline or plot and just go off on their own devices.

Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:25:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014750113.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <3C7BBD20.B05E029@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020226152429.00b94c40@urbin.net>

At 11:01 AM 2/26/02 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>John Groth writes:
> > Note that _101 Corporations_ does mention the Famille Spofulam Light
> > Export Forklift (top speed 404 kilometers per hour)....
>Of course, any world with a high law level will have definitions of what 
>counts
>as 'civilian' (this definition will vary depending on local needs, but in
>general high speed is not important in warehouses, so the FS design probably
>wouldn't qualify).

Plus entry codes, trackers, remote overrides controlled by the police...



------------------------------------------
"The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:29:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:29:29 GMT
Subject: [TML] More Darrian questions
In-Reply-To: <000001c1be7e$ed3f4d30$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000001c1be7e$ed3f4d30$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3c83ee4d.7315736@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>886-945.

>and water.  So, which is right?  Can anyone with the Regency Sourcebook
>confirm the entry for me?  Is it 800 or 833?

UWP in 1117: D833000-3  Lo Ni Po  -504  Na  F8 V
UWP in 1202: D833100-3  Lo Ni Po  -704  Na  F8 V

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 20:34:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:34:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <200202261652.g1QGqWxU003735@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16foIe-0006S2-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>  Just got a copy of MT Hard Times this weekend.  While I've had a copy
>  of
> the MT basic rules for about a decade now, I wasn't originally that
> impressed with MT, and for years have stuck with CT.  However, in the
> last year, I've started picking up a few of the MT supplements:
> Referee's Companion, Rebellion Sourcebook, and now Hard Times.
> 
>  Damn, but this is a good supplement.

Very much agreed.  Clearly one of the *very* best GDW MT 
supplements.
 
>  While the Rebellion itself never did that much for me, actually
>  seeing
> the after-effects of the Rebellion, and how it would forever alter the
> landscape of the 11,000 worlds that was once the 3rd Imperium, is
> quite impressive.  Maybe it's partially because I'm in the middle of
> (finally) reading Poul Anderson's 'Flandry' stories, but watching the
> dream of the Imperium die as another Long Night approaches (or at
> least, a Short Dusk), is actually quite moving.  The mini-scenarios
> are of varying quality, but the core of the book remains very solid.
> 
>  Although I've been told as much, reading HT confirms it:  Hard Times
> shows just how unnecessary Virus was in TNE.  All the things that
> Virus was supposed to bring to the Traveller table (a destabilized
> setting with more player freedom and a rawer feel) was already present
> in Hard Times, with none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to Virus.  

Virus as a concept was a bit cheesy, but the effects bothered me 
far more than the somewhat dubious science. What *really* upset 
me was the waste.  Hard Times sets up a minor Long Night, full of 
desperate worlds, many small pocket empires, space pirates, 
roving mercenaries companies that can become a law unto 
themselves and other goodness.  TNE went *way* too far, most of 
the Imperium ended up dead or pre-industrial.  I wanted lots of TL 8-
10 worlds on the ragged edge of space travel, not an endless 
series of graveyard worlds and TEDs.  After seeing Hard Times, 
seeing TNE was *very* disappointing.

OTOH, while not quite as rich as the Hard Times setting I 
imagined, GT is coming along quite nicely.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 21:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:11:41 EST
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <20.24808c5b.29ad540e@aol.com>

Well, by slow and tottering steps, I am finally getting a few players together for a CT nostalgia-game set in the Spinward Marches, but that got me thinking:  What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?  I am assuming that the usual language heard in Galanglic, even if it is usually written with Vilani characters, but what about the rest of it?  The local AstroBurger franchise can be assumed to serve food recognisable to the average Solomani (and the average player), but what if the players were to walk into a random eatery and order a steak?  Would it arrive in one piece, seared over a gas flame and served with a side order of baked tubers and finely-shredded cabbage soaked in some white sauce, or would it be chopped into small pieces, soaked in brine, boiled for a few hours while chanting traditional mantras before serving it with a sauce nearly too spicy to consume and a side order of white stuff that looks like library paste but lacks the flavor?  And would the other patrons be feeding themselves, or would they be sitting in small groups, feeding each other?  If the players were to open a ration tin in their emergency pack, would it contain ham and beans, or more of that library paste (and would you need antacids or antihistimines after eating it)?  Would most of the people be speaking Galanglic, or is that merely a 'trade' or 'official' language, with a large portion of sophonts speaking Vilani or English or Spanish or something utterly unrecognizable?  In other words, what is the 'mean culture', and how wide is the standard deviation?

Rod Basler - COFIT (Crotchety Old Fart In Training)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 21:16:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:16:15 -0600
Subject: When PCs Stray... (was: Re: [TML] Evil GMs (longish))
References: <B8A12E6F.1629%mole@solsec.org>
Message-ID: <3C7BFB1F.99A8827@premier.net>



Mole wrote:
> 
> on 2/26/02 12:09 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > ** My biggest complaint with almost all of the GDW adventures is the same
> > as with most adventures published for most games:  plots/storylines are too
> > predetermined.  I happen to love 'The Traveller Adventure' but it suffers
> > from this failing, too.  If you set any group composed from a couple of
> > dozen of my most favorite roleplaying companions loose in the 'The
> > Traveller Adventure', then we'd very, very, very quickly depart from the
> > scheduled plotline.
> 
> In our GM's universe this is called "Following the Warbot". When characters
> depart from a given storyline or plot and just go off on their own devices.

One of the White Wolf WoD books had an excellent term for when PCs make
decisions that throw a spanner in the referee's plans and expectations;
the book referred to them as "Yes, father, I will join you on the Dark
Side" moments.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 21:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:58:38 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How many potential NPC Travellers in a star system?
References: <200202262009.g1QK94cp025279@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C7C050E.C177C1A2@ameritech.net>



> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:30:11 -0500
> From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> Subject: How many potential NPC Travellers in a star system?
> 
> How many Starship Engineers can dance on the head
> of a frontier mining colony?
> 
> Or, to put it another way, has anyone made
> up interesting methods to figure out how many
> people in any given planetary population are:
> 1) Willing to hire out to passing starships; and
> 2) Have useful skills for hire?

There are the recruiting rules from Book 4 Mercenary. While those rules
are for recruiting for a military organization they can probably be
adapted to the general case fairly easily. 

To quickly summarize:

There are 4 grades of potential recruit; Raw Recruit, Veteran, Veteran
Officer, and Mercenary. A Raw Recruit is a character from a non
Army/Marine background, a Veteran is an Army/Marine character generated
using book 2 that did not earn a commission, A veteran Officer is as the
name suggests a book 2 character which did earn a commission, and a
Mercenary is a character that was generated using book 4 expanded
character generation.

The number of recruits available for hire are determined by dice roll.
For Raw Recruits roll Pop digit - 4 dice, Veterans are available based
on the roll of Pop digit - 5 dice, and Veteran Officers and Mercenaries
are available in numbers equal to Pop digit - 6 dice. Appropriate
modifiers based upon several factors are added to each die rolled and
viola you have finished recruiting your NPCs.

Now going by these figures we can expect that people willing to hire out
to dubious employers (ie the PCs) for potentially dangerous work (ie
working for the PCs) will generally not be available on any planet with
a population of less than 5 and that you cannot reasonably expect to be
able to find somebody with the proper experience on a world with a
population code of less than 6. OTOH if the needs of the story require
it somebody will be available on any world with any population at all.
Whether such a recruit would likely be the most reliable, capable, or
otherwise desirable employee is left to referee discretion.

Does this help?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 21:57:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:57:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Can you say "battle dress?"
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELFCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
>
>Just make sure the users walkman isn't tuned into skinhead or thrash metal!

The ones to worry about have the walkman tuned to accordion music.

--Glenn

"Moi, je n'aime pas les contragravis."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 22:04:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:04:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People (fwd)
Message-ID: <20020226.172916.-270403.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


> The Iron Dream was wonderfully warped.
> Norman Spinrad is great.

Not only is The Iron Dream an extremely twisted book, it's also the
inspiration for my D&D elves...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 22:29:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:29:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <20020226.172916.-270403.2.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> > From: knightsky@juno.com
> ...snip...
> > with none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to
> > Virus.  
> ...snip...
> > ("Virus?  What Virus?  Screw the Virus!")
> ...snip.
> 
> <sarcasm>
> Wow,  Two flaim baits in one post.  I haven't seen
> that since the last near c rock debate.
> </sarcasm>

Heh.  <understatement> Yeah, I probably was a tad bit vitriolic with
those comments. <understatement> While I've always disliked virus, after
reading HT, what annoys me more than anything was that it just seems
*unnecessary*.  That said, obviously there are those who do like
Virus/TNE, and I wouldn't think of telling them *not* to enjoy it.  To
each their own; I was just venting a bit...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 23:26:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:26:24 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Not Re: Scam Spamming
References: <200202261652.g1QGqWxU003735@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c1bf1d$218c8aa0$185d8690@computer>

> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> Go rent "Orgasmo" (a movie by the Southpark guys) and watch it, and "Scary
> Mormon" takes on a whole new meaning...

That's "Very bad Mormon".

Orgasmo has been on television here twice.  Nothing like state-run TV
stations for showing programs commercial channels won't touch.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 23:22:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:22:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller
References: <200202262009.g1QK94cp025279@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1bf1d$20dd10c0$185d8690@computer>

> From: Hal
> The thrust of the game is the recovery of an old database core from a ship
> dating sometime into the time of the long night.  Said Data core contains
> information that may or may not validate Emperor Cleon's claim to
> legitimacy as an heir to the last emperor of the second imperium...

I must admit that IMTU, Cleon's legitimacy didn't have a lot to do with
being an heir of the second imperium.  I see it more has having been
propoganda icing on the cake, and not something to kill people over.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 21:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:03:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] FF&S and my apologizes.
In-Reply-To: <200202261652.g1QGqWxU003735@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <32RQJDAB0GAA9LH2ZMG1VD8JUQSM82.3c7bf80d@kids>

i was mistaken about the availability of that particular item.
I will have a more complete list of available items around friday.

my apologies to Lloyd and Paul - i am searching for alternative
sources for FF&S.

(sigh)  "I effing swear that was one of the available items" ...





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 00:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] RE: "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
Message-ID: <3C7C2BD3.2EA9241B@mail.cswnet.com>

>   1) Faction books written in "first person" terms.  Like a book on >the Sol Confed with at least part of it done from the Solomani >perspective. <snippaged>
Gee, I kinda liked Rats & Cats. Some more Solrim Adventures would be
nice, though.

>2) A "new" ..... Traveller miniatures game with Traveller miniatures.
Ohhh yes, Yes, YES!

> 3)  A Rebellion era/whole Imperium scale strategic war game al la FFW,
>just much bigger.  
<more screaming> YES YES YES!

>4)  More work on the Imperial Navy and the ships they use.
Oops. You just lost me on that one. 
There is already a couple of at least half-decent supplements on the
subject.

I wanna see more about Scoutrons. And Internal views of the Type S, like
they have for the Type A in Starship Operators Manual. Just more Scout
things in general and specific, or General Specific. Whatever.

>5)  Some volumes detailing the significant noble families to some
>degree.
Ok.

>6)  A Traveller tactical space combat game scalable to larger fleet
>engagements with its own line of ship miniatures.
Ohh yeah. Now your back on track. Yes.....

>7) Something with my name in the credits. (ha ha)
"Son, if you work hard, one day this will all be yours...."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Can't we skip this garbage and go straight to the tacos?"
--the collected wisdom of Zorack

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 01:27:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:27:20 -0600
Subject: [TML] RE: How many potential NPC Travellers in a star system?
Message-ID: <3C7C35F8.F3422A8D@mail.cswnet.com>

Walt Smith writes:
>Or, to put it another way, has anyone made
>up interesting methods to figure out how many
>people in any given planetary population are:
>1) Willing to hire out to passing starships; and
>2) Have useful skills for hire?

You could use the recruitng table from Assignment: Vigilante, Pg 10.
However, I don't think this works well for small pop worlds. Places like
Arba and Bowman wouldn't have any space NPC's using A:V's recruiting
table.

A different way to do it drawing from the A:V table:

A base NPC number equal to the Population number, available per week.
Example:  Arba, pop 2, would have a base of 2 npcs available.

Add modifiers: +3 Starport A, naval base or scout waystation, +2
Starport B, vacuum world or scout base, +1 Starport C or xboat station,
-1 Starport E, -8 for Starport x

As for skills available; Starport A will have skill level 4+, B ports
level 3+, C ports level 2+, D ports level 1+. E and X ports will have
space npc but they will be from somewhere else, not locally. Example:
The scout that has crashed his ship in Grant might well have skill level
of 4+. 

Of course, this is just something I've made up here. Others might have
some better ideas [Hint! Feel free to join in, TMLers.]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Two words: Mojo Jojo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:06:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:06:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People (fwd)
References: <20020226.172916.-270403.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <004801c1bf33$d9513620$c5cd9041@monarchv>

>Not only is The Iron Dream an extremely twisted book, it's also the
inspiration for my D&D elves...


Perry<

Ewwwwwwwww.

If you tell me you use the Men in the Jungle for your dwarves I truly pity
your players.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:20:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:20:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0-6
Message-ID: <200202270218.g1R2Ih216821@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>Subject: Re: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0-6
...
>government is a "Charismatic dictatorship" which sounds too temporary
>to give me the continuity I was looking for, so I stretched the
>definition to make it an absolute monarchy which enjoys strong public support.

  Is that really such a stretch?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:37:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
References: <20020226.172916.-270403.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <OE42Hd9Qjs9KUsYAUhj00012cb7@hotmail.com>


> Heh.  <understatement> Yeah, I probably was a tad bit vitriolic with
> those comments. <understatement> While I've always disliked virus, after
> reading HT, what annoys me more than anything was that it just seems
> *unnecessary*.  That said, obviously there are those who do like
> Virus/TNE, and I wouldn't think of telling them *not* to enjoy it.  To
> each their own; I was just venting a bit...
>

One of Virus' primary appeals is also its most divisive aspect.  (People who
have a problem with the *science* of Virus but accept J-drives, Ancients,
and antigrav amuse me.)  TNE offers a post apocolyptic view, where the world
ends with a bang.  Now, don't get me wrong.  Hardtimes is one of the best
Traveller products, period.  Together with Arrival Vengance, they paint a
compelling image of people living as a golden age goes right along to hell.
But TNE offers a "nuclear winter" scenario that provides its own set of
issues and challenges.  Now, any Imperium wide apocolypse would need some
kind of superweapon deployable by the assets remaining to the factions.
Virus happens to fit the bill nicely (In some ways).

To be sure, many people did not want an apocolypse, and that is why TNE is
either liked or disliked, in my opinion.  For me, TNE's most disturbing
aspect was the initial assumption (even in the Regency) of the inherent evil
in the Imperial system.  A theory which for me simply doesn't fly.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:43:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
References: <3C7C2BD3.2EA9241B@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <OE56F1IT18olkDTM9wG00000b85@hotmail.com>


> >4)  More work on the Imperial Navy and the ships they use.
> Oops. You just lost me on that one.
> There is already a couple of at least half-decent supplements on the
> subject.

Really?  Book 5 is nice for char gen and ship design, not much in the way of
source material.  Book 9 is excellent for ships, but that's it.  FSOTSI is
pretty dry except for some good stuff in the very beginning, TNE's products
are not all that useful.  I have Starships for T4, which again is pretty
useless for an IN overview, but I lack the Imperial Squadrons book.  By far
the most useful  comprehensive look at the IN is in the Rebellion
sourcebook.  Nice as it is, I find the material somewhat lacking.  The
Imperium rules the space in between the stars.  Why is it we can find enough
material for an entire book on Imperial *ground* forces and not the IN?

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:53:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:53:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
Message-ID: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>

In determining the trade volume for a world, what area should it be
limited to:

A) Every system with in 6 parsecs of the world,

B) Every system in the worlds subsector,

C) Every system in the worlds sector, or

D) Every system in the universe.

I think that, following GT Far Trader by the book, that its B), but I'm
looking for some clarification on it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
PS Is there anybody going to ROC.CON in May?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:59:12 +0000
Subject: [TML] "Anti"-gearheads  (was: T5)
Message-ID: <F213kcoovSGIdo5jD300001b3df@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "They had "artifical gravity" on a space station and described it in 
"detail" as being a magnetic field working on metal stips in the crew's 
clothes."

     "Then they showed someone pouring coffee into an open cup..."

     "You also don't have to explain things like how a magnetic field can 
affect coffee. <g> "


Mr. Erickson,

     That one's easy to explain, they use really HARD water to brew their 
coffee.
     Perhaps Mr. Johnson could give us a paragraph or two on metal poisoning 
in humans?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 03:12:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:12:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>

From: knightsky@juno.com

     "Although I've been told as much, reading HT confirms it:  Hard Times 
shows just how unnecessary Virus was in TNE.  All the things that Virus was 
supposed to bring to the Traveller table (a destabilized setting with more 
player freedom and a rawer feel) was already present in Hard Times, with 
none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to Virus."


Sir,

    Although I enjoyed the mechanics of TNE, like you, I loathed the 
backstory.  IMHO, Virus was completely unnecessary.  The Black War and Hard 
Times had already provided all the destruction that was needed.
     Turning Chartered Space into a 57th century version of Auschwitz was 
disgusting.  How many trillions of sentients were killed for the sake of a 
extremely weak, ill-concieved plot device?  Sure rebuilding interstellar 
civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause for any campaign, but setting that 
campaign in an interstellar abattoir is simply too much.
     From a metagame standpoint, Virus is little more than a systemic 
punctuation mark.  As each new Traveller system was launched, it's creators 
felt a need to seperate it from what had come before.  DGP seperated MT from 
CT by introducing the Rebellion.  GDW needed something to drive home the 
fact of TNE's uniqueness, hence Virus.  This bit of one-upmanship was 
unfortunate and entirely human.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 03:24:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:24:56 EST
Subject: [TML] Alonzo Fondled Up a Tree, Oh, Hussar guitar is air away . . .
Message-ID: <f3.16feb66b.29adab88@aol.com>

In a message dated 26-Feb-02 10:55:29 AM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> > Ahh, if I'm ever in charge of a nation that defeats France in war, I'm
>  > going to make surrendering La Masseilies a key feature of the
>  > peace treaty
>  
>  Hmm.  One might think that you were lurking in the recent discussion on
>  the JTAS IMTU board, in which we discussed using the plot of
>  _Casablanca_ as a Traveller adventure.... ;-)

". . . [H]e may have won all the battles,
but we had all the good songs!"

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 03:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:44:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
Message-ID: <200202270344.TAA26888@ping.iii.com>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>In determining the trade volume for a world, what area should it be
>limited to:
>
>A) Every system with in 6 parsecs of the world,
>
>B) Every system in the worlds subsector,
>
>C) Every system in the worlds sector, or
>
>D) Every system in the universe.
>
>I think that, following GT Far Trader by the book, that its B), but I'm
>looking for some clarification on it.

It's any route that exceeds the cutoff point, which is between C and D.
In practice, tracing routes other than immediate neighbors and nearby
major (WTN 5.5 and above) worlds is probably a waste of time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 03:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:50:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
References: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE63UIEAOeIiGXix4A2000000e4@hotmail.com>


Ahh, I never thought I'd have to come down on the opposite side as Larsen
Whipsnade. (sniffle)


"Turning Chartered Space into a 57th century version of Auschwitz was
disgusting.  How many trillions of sentients were killed for the sake of a
extremely weak, ill-concieved plot device?  Sure rebuilding interstellar
civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause for any campaign, but setting that
campaign in an interstellar abattoir is simply too much."

While I agree that Virus was ill-concieved in many ways, (My prior
discussion on the subject with Rupert Boleyn and others neatly outlines the
flaws, IMO) I would refute an assumption that rested on the uselessness of
the TNE universe.  What TNE offered, at least to me, was not the promise of
rebuilding interstellar society.  Now, that was a part of it to be sure.
However, I was always more drawn by the end of the world aspect.  (Of
course, I have always been partial to apocolyptic scenarios)

    "From a metagame standpoint, Virus is little more than a systemic
punctuation mark.  As each new Traveller system was launched, it's creators
felt a need to seperate it from what had come before.  DGP seperated MT from
CT by introducing the Rebellion.  GDW needed something to drive home the
fact of TNE's uniqueness, hence Virus.  This bit of one-upmanship was
unfortunate and entirely human."

As for the RL motivations, you might very well be right.  I am myself
uncertain if TNE was the proper heir to Traveller's legacy.  The motivations
of the authors aside, the biterness with which TNE's apocolypse was recieved
by many older players might be a good sign that they just weren't willing to
part with what they had.

JEff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 04:05:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:05:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020226230518.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>

Hello Dan,
  Regards to the rules, and *my* interpretation of it...

The tonnage classification is based on *all* planets within the imperium
plus neighboring planets in nearby non-Imperial systems.  For ease of play
however, most GM's will likely only build data structures based on stars
nearby.

  At one point, I got a quick and dirty program to generate cargoes for me
using FAR TRADER rules, but discovered that I needed to trash it and start
fresh.  The reason?  Suppose you decide to travel from point A to point D.
Between your final destination is points B and C.  Why not get cargo for
those locations as well as the cargo for D?  Stop at B, earn money, maybe
get cargo from B to go to C and D.  Stop at C, drop off cargo, maybe get
more cargo for D.  Reach D, drop off all remaining cargo.  The Trader earns
more money that way.  So you've got to include the cargo generation for all
locations, not just the one (programming wise that is).

        Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:13:11 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
In-Reply-To: <OE44jik38dWMJ69ik6k00019e9a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202271311000.23894-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Jeff:

 All  very nice looking for desires. I like the last one most of all and
would love to add me to that one. <VBG>

 However I would like to add that I would like to see or know the reason
why there can't be, new products for CT. This possibly was discussed befor
I joined the list. But why not new Ct products? Or for that matter for the
other versions of Traveller?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 02:04:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:34:20 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <20225.065501.7B3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202271227520.23894-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> ML is out of the question, as I'd need a 6510 disassembler, a C64 BIOS
> source listing and index *and* knowledge of 6510 assembler.

 <bad lag today> Don't feel bad. There is a new accelerator/processor for
us now. I haven't even finished some lesson books in Basic on the older
system. Let alone stock ML. Though it is good to play Traveller and deal
in hexidecimel ML work <BG. Or so I have been told.

> No idea what "Blitz'ed" means. I assume it's some sort of encoding to
> make it hard to get the source?

 Blitz AFAIK was a semi commercial prg used by programmers. It not only
made it hard to enter a Basic prg with the normal list command it also did
some sort of compression. In my stack of stuff I have it and some file to
break it. I also have a crew freind that is still in the C= field. That
may be able to help me break the files into a basic listing.


> As I said elsewgere, a "PETSCII" listing of the BASIC program might be
> usable. Nothing else would be.

 If I can break them open to a listing in Basic. I can make a file of
that, but it would have to be sent in PET. Rather than ascii. As the codes
won't show right if I don't. Can you read them online, or would snail mail
be better in a print out?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 04:08:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:08:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <003101c1bf44$75f36010$2f7de40c@loki>

X) referee's common sense
Y) referee's need for the session
Z) something suitably close to B) without silly limits due to artificial
lines on a map


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:09:02 +0000
Subject: [TML] Minimum Long-range STL ship crews
Message-ID: <F10i08N8yxdZjfNLnly00007024@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I stumbled across an interesting article in this week's issue of "The 
Economist".  A Dr. Moore, an anthropologist at U of F-Gainesville, gave a 
paper at a recent AAAS meeting in Boston on the topic of STL ship crews.  He 
was interested in the minimum number of people each ship would require if 
the vessel in question was to travel for centuries.  Such a vessel would 
require some sort of self-contained colony in which people could "survive, 
reproduce, and lead something approaching normal lives."
     He came up with the idea that a compact between generations to produce 
an acceptable crop of spouses for the future.  He defines acceptable as:

(A)  A minimum of ten suitable members of the opposite sex* to choose
     from.
(B)  These choices should be within three years of the chooser's age.
(C)  None of the choices would be closer than second cousins to the
     chooser.

     His model came up with a minimum group number of 150-180 people.  If 
the compact held, these groups were stable for 60-80 generations, a time 
period that works out to about 2000 years.
     Oddly enough, the 150-180 number proves to be significant in other 
areas.  It's the maximum number of people that an individual can know well 
enough to form a permanent social relationship with.  It's the maximum size 
that anthropologists find for hunter-gatherer clans, pre-industrial 
villages, an effective infantry companies.

ObTrav - The OTU is littered with minor races who engaged in STL colony 
efforts; the Suerret, a few encountered by the Zhos, a few encountered by 
the Hivers, etc.  Of course, the minimal crew numbers for non-humans will 
differ significantly due to psychological and cultural reasons.

* - Yes, this presupposes hetero type relationships that produce babies and 
raise them "old fashioned" way.  Whether a colony ship would have the 
resources necessary to produce follow-on generations via different means is 
unknown.  The requirements for reproduction could become entirely seperate 
from the vessel's overall culture however.  The many different methods of 
getting frisky, recently discussed on the List, could still occur on the 
colony ship.  It's just that each individual in each generation would be 
expected to do their bit with regards to creating the next generation.  As 
long as that duty is fulfilled, every individual could still engage in 
affairs with potted plants, cleaning equipment, or whatever their heart 
desires.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 04:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:46:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <200202270344.TAA26888@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>

Dumb question time folks ;)

Assuming real life conditions...

You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
roughly speaking.

Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.  

Here is my thoughts on the problem...

If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.

How?  You get the angle measurement via your bearings.  You have the
distance from A to B via their distance calculated from Earth.  In essence,
you are using Earth, Pulsar A, and Pulsar B to get your bearing and
distance at point C that is where you are currently...

Am I off base here?

         Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 05:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:47:10 EST
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
Message-ID: <12a.cf1e0b5.29adccde@aol.com>

In a string of messages, folks have offered different opinions about new 
products: 

   The one I'd _definately_ like to see is a new batch of Traveller 
miniatures; preferably in 25 or 28mm (a pox on those damned 15s!). 
   I have the old Grenadier box of assorted Travellers (maybe they were sold 
as ship's crew?), and the excellent Imperial Marines, and would _love_ to get 
the chance to acquire some more Imp Marines without outrageous prices 
attached (I was at one place online, and the guy wanted a pretty _startling_ 
$7 a pop for his). Yes, I _know_ Ground Zero/Geohex has some very very 
similar minis available; I'm just a chronic procrastinator :)
   For that matter, its quite a mission in itself to track down minis that'll 
suitably fill in for either Vargr or Aslan. I've got several old Werewolf 
minis that'll kinda pass for either in a _pinch_; and there's the Critter 
Commandos _Howling Commandos_ parody pack with Sgt Fury's gang being turned 
to dogs, but they're a little too cartoony for my tastes...
   Oh well, on another wishlist, Jeff Yin (and others) wonder about the 
always thinly covered Imperial Navy. 

> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:43:02 -0800
> From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] RE: "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
> 
> > >4)  More work on the Imperial Navy and the ships they use.
> > Oops. You just lost me on that one.
> > There is already a couple of at least half-decent supplements on the
> > subject.
> 
> Really?  Book 5 is nice for char gen and ship design, not much in the way of
> source material.  Book 9 is excellent for ships, but that's it.  FSOTSI is
> pretty dry except for some good stuff in the very beginning, TNE's products
> are not all that useful.  I have Starships for T4, which again is pretty
> useless for an IN overview, but I lack the Imperial Squadrons book.  By far
> the most useful  comprehensive look at the IN is in the Rebellion
> sourcebook.  Nice as it is, I find the material somewhat lacking.  The
> Imperium rules the space in between the stars.  Why is it we can find enough
> material for an entire book on Imperial *ground* forces and not the IN?
> 
   A couple of years back, while I was looking to flesh out the IN a bit, I 
also happened to be reading Forester's Hornblower books, as well as having 
just acquired a copy of FGU's excellent (and _very_ BRPish, mechanicswise) 
Privateers and Gentlemen (which I was told should be back in print very 
soon). 
   Swiping _bits_, if not entire large _passages_ from either source, as I 
shamelessly did, _certainly_ makes for a more interesting Service.
   From information on enlisting and promotions, to rank and command 
structure, to ship types and mission, these things are an absolute gold 
mine.--assuming you like the idea of the  IN IYTU having a somewhat 
anachronistic Age of Fighting Sail feel to it  :)
   
  -Ken Murphy-
   



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 07:16:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:16:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Specific Product Disucssion (Wargame)
References: <12a.cf1e0b5.29adccde@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE23qf69aZbLAX3cf3e000070db@hotmail.com>

I'd love to get my hands on some of those old Traveller minis (I have a few
from TNE's line, but that's it.) especially the Imperial Marines set.  Each
one I see on ebay goes for a pretty high price though. 25mm scale miniatures
would be great.  Right in line with plenty of other wargames (mainly pretty
thin offerings as far as substance, like Warhammer 40K), large enough to
paint easily, and allows for a good level of detail.

As far as the wargame itself, what would we expect from the rules set?  (Or
would others simply revive one of the older versions)

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 07:19:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:19:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
References: <20226.102347.5r4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3C7C888A.9EE3BA45@sitraka.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> I could still attempt to write a program to do brute force integration.
> That is, treat the solid as a stack of thin cylinders and sum their
> volume. Ugly, but doable.

I think if you picked up a textbook you could probably figure it out.
Calculus, while daunting, isn't harder than anything else. You could
certainly pick it up Leonard.

ObTrav: Making the players plot their own damn transfer orbits. ;)

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 07:28:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:28:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
Message-ID: <200202270728.XAA15735@ping.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Dumb question time folks ;)
>
>Assuming real life conditions...
>
>You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
>misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
>roughly speaking.
>
>Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
>answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.  

Well, you need three points, though they don't have to be pulsars (within
the galaxy, one pulsar is probably enough)
>
>Here is my thoughts on the problem...
>
>If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
>on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
>deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.

Correct.  However, in three dimensions the set of points that are X distance
from one point and Y distance from another point is a circle (with the
center on the line between those two points).  You need a third point to
reduce that circle down to a single location.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 07:50:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:50:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] RE: How many potential NPC Travellers in a star system?
In-Reply-To: <3C7C35F8.F3422A8D@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3C7C35F8.F3422A8D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020227185053.A21787@freeman.little-possums.net>

Roseberry wrote:
> A base NPC number equal to the Population number, available per week.
> Example:  Arba, pop 2, would have a base of 2 npcs available.

I'd go with something based on WTN.  That way, you already get a
modifier for population and starport class.  e.g. Treat WTN as a
population code, so a WTN 4.0 system has 10000-30000 people (of all
sorts) willing to sign up for offworld employment.  The bonus is that
I already have WTN for each world in my database :)

Make higher skills proportionally less common, e.g. 10% of all people
willing to sign up have some minimal levels in a given desired skill,
3% are moderately competent, 1% are highly competent, etc.

Poor or repressive worlds probably have more people wanting to leave,
but the extras may not be free to do so or may be insufficiently
skilled for the employer's purposes.  Apply modifiers to taste.

Bonuses in locating employees for above-average pay, lengthy search,
area knowledge, personal competence in the skills being searched for,
low standards, etc.  Penalties for unusual hazards, low pay, uncommon
skills required, etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:00:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:00:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
References: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3C7C920B.FFC612D7@premier.net>



hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> Dumb question time folks ;)
> 
> Assuming real life conditions...
> 
> You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
> misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
> roughly speaking.
> 
> Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
> answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.
> 
> Here is my thoughts on the problem...
> 
> If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
> on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
> deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.
> 
> How?  You get the angle measurement via your bearings.  You have the
> distance from A to B via their distance calculated from Earth.  In essence,
> you are using Earth, Pulsar A, and Pulsar B to get your bearing and
> distance at point C that is where you are currently...
> 
> Am I off base here?

Note: I'm not an astrogator, nor do I play one on TV.

However, if I'm visualizing this correctly, you cannot determine your
actual location strictly based on your position relative to two bodies,
even if you know the distance between the two bodies.

To help visualize this, cut a triangle (with one side about 40mm long;
the length of the other two sides is not important, although they should
be within an order of magnitude to make this a manageable illustration)
out of fairly sturdy material.  Now hold the triangle such that the 40mm
side is held between two fingers (two vertices[ your two pulsars] are
now defined).  You can pivot this triangle around in a circle, right? 
Your starship is somewhere on the circle occupied by the third vertex. 
We can't find out _where_ on that circle your ship is without reference
to a third known body.

You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:03:29 +1100
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020227190329.B21787@freeman.little-possums.net>

Roseberry wrote:
> In determining the trade volume for a world, what area should it be
> limited to:

> D) Every system in the universe.

... in my opinion.  :)
Remember to apply modifiers for different political entities.

The GT Traveller universe as a whole has an equivalent WTN of about
5.0-6.0 (already modified for average distance).  Ag or In worlds
within major political entities would see it as closer to 6.0,
unspecial worlds of tiny empires or out on the fringes would see it
more like 5.0.

Using this, you can very easily just look at trade with the nearest
2-3 large worlds, and treat the rest of the universe as a sort of
"background level" of trade on top of that.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:27:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:27:49 -0600
Subject: [TML] Specific Product Disucssion (Wargame)
References: <12a.cf1e0b5.29adccde@aol.com> <OE23qf69aZbLAX3cf3e000070db@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C7C9885.C6CF28B6@premier.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:
> 
> I'd love to get my hands on some of those old Traveller minis (I have a few
> from TNE's line, but that's it.) especially the Imperial Marines set.  Each
> one I see on ebay goes for a pretty high price though. 25mm scale miniatures
> would be great.  Right in line with plenty of other wargames (mainly pretty
> thin offerings as far as substance, like Warhammer 40K), large enough to
> paint easily, and allows for a good level of detail.
> 
> As far as the wargame itself, what would we expect from the rules set?  (Or
> would others simply revive one of the older versions)

One option would be Doug Berry's _At Close Quarters_, published by
BITS.  Not only is ACQ a fairly realistic combat system (written by a
combat-veteran infantryman), it also has conversion rules (the BITS Task
System) for all editions of Traveller that have been published so far. 
While T20 is not covered, as it has not yet been published, I suspect
that the BITS Task System will eventually be expanded to cover T20, thus
making ACQ a truly universal Traveller combat system.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:35:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:35:56 +1100
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020226230518.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
References: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com> <3.0.1.32.20020226230518.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020227193556.C21787@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Suppose you decide to travel from point A to point D.  Between your
> final destination is points B and C.
[...]
> So you've got to include the cargo generation for all locations, not
> just the one (programming wise that is).

Not to mention that by the time the information about a demand at D
has gone from D to C to B to A, then you pick up the cargo on A and go
to B, C, and D, about 2-3 months has gone by.  So any information
about the conditions on D when you get there may be rather outdated.

Of course, this is more a worry from the in-game perspective, not a
problem for computer generation of cargoes :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:40:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:40:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

>How many trillions of sentients were killed for the sake of a
>extremely weak, ill-concieved plot device?

This is the best sentence I've read on the TML this year.  It ranks well
above my comment the first time I played Fifth Frontier War with the San
Jose group and drew Admiral Santanocheev in my initial pick:  "Oh, just like
it really happened."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:40:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: RBasler1@aol.com

>Well, by slow and tottering steps, I am finally getting a few players
together for a CT
>nostalgia-game set in the Spinward Marches, but that got me thinking:  What
is the 'default'
>culture of the Marches?

There isn't much of a default culture anywhere in the Imperium.  People
speak and read Galanglic in large part because interstellar news feeds are
in Galanglic as are any interactions with Imperial authorities.  Otherwise,
local cultures (and languages) develop as naturally, and requiring as small
groups of sophonts, as they did on Terra (or Vland, or Lair, or wherever)
before the jump drive.

A good read about language development is one of Neal Stephenson's books,
whose title escapes me at the moment -- the one with the pizza delivery guy
and the skateboard messenger -- White Noise? Snowstorm?  I don't recall.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 08:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:54:45 -0000
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
References: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <014501c1bf6c$c7edace0$75df883e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: <hal@buffnet.net>

> Dumb question time folks ;)
>
> Assuming real life conditions...
>
> You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.
Ship
> misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
> roughly speaking.
>
> Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
> answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.

Two known reference points in a 3D space is enough to locate yourself to
an area defined as a circle (actually a very thin torus) whose position is
at a constant position from both reference points. A third reference point
would be needed to locate yourself precisely (actually to within a very
small sphere). Ideally, four or more reference points would be desirable
for multiple redundancy in case one of them is out of detection range for
some reason.

However, with 2 reference points, large parts of that great circle can be
ruled out as being impossible, as they may well be outside the galactic
disc, and can thus be ruled out if you are in an area with a large
population of stars.


--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 09:22:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:22:16 +1100
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
References: <200202270344.TAA26888@ping.iii.com> <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020227202216.D21787@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Assuming real life conditions...
> 
> You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
> misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
> roughly speaking.

Pulsars are thought to be reasonably directional.  You might not be in
the right direction to be swept by Pulsar A's pulse.


> Here is my thoughts on the problem...
> 
> If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
> on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
> deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.

Nope, all this gives you is a surface of constant angular separation,
e.g. a sphere.  This also holds in 2D.  You need a third known object
to narrow it down to a point.  Any other known star, or the galactic
center, or that of some other galaxy, would do.

You might be able to make use of other known facts.  For example, if
transit through jumpspace (even a misjump?) retains the ship's
original orientation, you could use this fact to pin down your
location.


Of course "assuming real life conditions", there are hundreds of
billions of stars, galaxies, pulsars, and assorted other astronomical
phenomena to get bearings from.  There no doubt would be thousands to
millions in a "toy" ephemeris by Traveller times.  A starship's
library would no doubt have observational information on billions of
objects in many spectra.  That's just terabytes of information; a
microscopic fraction of the data available to a real Imperial
astronomer, and certainly no strain on computer storage resources.


> How?  You get the angle measurement via your bearings.  You have the
> distance from A to B via their distance calculated from Earth.  In
> essence, you are using Earth, Pulsar A, and Pulsar B to get your
> bearing and distance at point C that is where you are currently...
>
> Am I off base here?

I'm afraid so.  Without observations of any other object or distances
to A or B, all you know is the angular separation between A and B.  In
2D, this means that you lie somewhere on a circular arc of known
radius through A and B.  In 3D, you are somewhere on the
pseudotoroidal surface traced out by rotating this arc around the line
joining A and B.  Knowing the distance between A and B just gives you
enough information to pin yourself down to a particular surface.

However, the problem seems like a "toy" one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 09:36:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:36:35 +1100
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020227203635.A22141@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> A good read about language development is one of Neal Stephenson's
> books, whose title escapes me at the moment -- the one with the
> pizza delivery guy and the skateboard messenger -- White Noise?
> Snowstorm?  I don't recall.

Snow Crash ;)

One of the niftier books I've read, with a number of interesting
concepts, gadgets, and characters to liven up any science fiction
game.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 09:52:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:52:27 +1100
Subject: [TML] "Anti"-gearheads  (was: T5)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEIJCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>  "You also don't have to explain things like how a magnetic field
> can affect coffee. <g> "

It's a very strong one - it keeps the coffee in place and really warm, too.
Unfortunately, this sort of field strength is lethal to the crew.

> Mr. Erickson,
>   That one's easy to explain, they use really HARD water to brew
>their coffee.
>   Perhaps Mr. Johnson could give us a paragraph or two on metal
> poisoning in humans?

This topic has spawned big textbooks. The take-home messages are as follows
:-

Elemental metals are largely harmless* ; the salts are problematic.

Poisonings typically have effects on multiple body systems, and can present
in many different ways (rashes, abdominal pain, joint pain, nausea, hair
loss...). Lead, mercury and iron poisonings have
distinctly different 'toxidromes' for example.

Specific treatment is by decontamination (gastric lavage within 2 hours,
whole bowel lavage within 4-6 hours ; activated charcoal doesn't bind metal
ions) or chelation for major poisonings, where another chemical is given to
bind the offending ions e.g. IV desferrioxamine for iron, dimercaprol for
most others.

* You could eat more plutonium (or 2,4,5-T, say) than caffeine and live to
tell about it.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer
Resuming lurk mode.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 09:46:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:46:19 +0800
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002601c1bf73$9c85e750$0100a8c0@gubru>

'Snowcrash'

yes amazing concept of linguistical viruses and programming. Well worth the
read.

Andrei Nikulinsky

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml-digest@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches


> >From: RBasler1@aol.com
>
> >Well, by slow and tottering steps, I am finally getting a few players
> together for a CT
> >nostalgia-game set in the Spinward Marches, but that got me thinking:
What
> is the 'default'
> >culture of the Marches?
>
> There isn't much of a default culture anywhere in the Imperium.  People
> speak and read Galanglic in large part because interstellar news feeds are
> in Galanglic as are any interactions with Imperial authorities.
Otherwise,
> local cultures (and languages) develop as naturally, and requiring as
small
> groups of sophonts, as they did on Terra (or Vland, or Lair, or wherever)
> before the jump drive.
>
> A good read about language development is one of Neal Stephenson's books,
> whose title escapes me at the moment -- the one with the pizza delivery
guy
> and the skateboard messenger -- White Noise? Snowstorm?  I don't recall.
>
> --Glenn
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 11:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:24:45 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <OE42Hd9Qjs9KUsYAUhj00012cb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C7D78CD.24320.22FC0A@localhost>

On 26 Feb 2002 at 18:37, Jeff Yin wrote:

> To be sure, many people did not want an apocolypse, and that is why TNE
> is either liked or disliked, in my opinion.  For me, TNE's most
> disturbing aspect was the initial assumption (even in the Regency) of
> the inherent evil in the Imperial system.  A theory which for me simply
> doesn't fly.

I'm ambivalent on this. However I tend to agree with Dave Nilsen on the 
other reason he gave for sweeping everything of the Imperium away to 
make room for the new - for any one faction to win would mean that the 
slaughter of billions was in some way justified. I suspect that for any 
faction to even survive would've been just as bad in Dave's eyes, 
though obviously I don't speak for him.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 11:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:29:45 +1300
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C7D79F9.8021.27938C@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 3:12, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      From a metagame standpoint, Virus is little more than a systemic
> punctuation mark.  As each new Traveller system was launched, it's
> creators felt a need to seperate it from what had come before.  DGP
> seperated MT from CT by introducing the Rebellion.  GDW needed something
> to drive home the fact of TNE's uniqueness, hence Virus.  This bit of
> one-upmanship was unfortunate and entirely human.

I don't think that was really the case, otherwise a much more minor 
version would've been sufficient - enough to guarantee a 'short night' 
and that the successor states were small. From what I've read 
(particularly in Dave Nilsen's comments) it had a lot more to do with a 
feeling the factions seen in the Rebellion were all utterly evil 
(though I susoect that some that weren't originally so were painted 
that way to add weight to the moral argument for their fall), excepting 
Strephon's (and he 'retired'), that to allow them any sort of 
'victory', even that of survival, would be to condone their wanton 
slaughter of billions of the very people they claimed as their 
subjects.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 11:37:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:37:44 +1300
Subject: [TML] Specific Product Disucssion (Wargame)
In-Reply-To: <3C7C9885.C6CF28B6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C7D7BD8.22450.2EE033@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 2:27, John Groth wrote:

> One option would be Doug Berry's _At Close Quarters_, published by
> BITS.  Not only is ACQ a fairly realistic combat system (written by a
> combat-veteran infantryman), it also has conversion rules (the BITS Task
> System) for all editions of Traveller that have been published so far.
> While T20 is not covered, as it has not yet been published, I suspect
> that the BITS Task System will eventually be expanded to cover T20, thus
> making ACQ a truly universal Traveller combat system.

It is however not totally generic - the way APs are converted to skill 
bonuses is fitted to T4's task system and resists being moved to 
CT/MT's 2d6 range. It probably wouldn't be too hard to move to TNE's or 
a d20 game like T20 though.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 11:37:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:37:44 +1300
Subject: [TML] "Anti"-gearheads  (was: T5)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEIJCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3C7D7BD8.4382.2EE222@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 20:52, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> * You could eat more plutonium (or 2,4,5-T, say) than caffeine and live
> to tell about it.

Don't try this with NZ-made 2,4,5-T: for a long while we prided 
ourselves on not having to get rid of dioxin's removed from our 2,4,5-T 
because we never bothered removing them. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 13:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:16:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fun quote
Message-ID: <20020227.083037.-199695.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Taken from RPG Net (specifically
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/contract26feb02.html), in an
article regarding meta-plots in RPGs:

"A nod must be made to Traveller players, who possess a fanaticism about
what is canon met only by certain Syrian clerics during the great
Christological debates or some of the most fanatical members of the Great
Books lobby, who think that a text needs to age like a fine wine and who
don't want the children of the world looking at any words that postdate
the Gilded Age. I'm surprised there aren't players following Marc Miller
around in the attempt to compose the T-hadith. Just in case." 


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 13:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:48:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Here's an idea - Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020227134835.59255.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com>

Here's an idea that could have been used.

Certain nobles within the moot with the best interest
of the Imperium at heart could have a "rogue" faction
of IRIS go out and assassinate the leaders of each
faction. There after you could have a Moot called to
decide on who would take the throne if at all. They
could form a "senate" of sorts and vote in an emperor
every few years. That would change the nature of the
imperium. Because if you think about it. What real
purpose did having an emperor serve other than being a
figurehead. 

Just seems to me there were so many ways to handle
this other than VIRUS or Hard Times.


--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> From: knightsky@juno.com
> 
>      "Although I've been told as much, reading HT
> confirms it:  Hard Times 
> shows just how unnecessary Virus was in TNE.  All
> the things that Virus was 
> supposed to bring to the Traveller table (a
> destabilized setting with more 
> player freedom and a rawer feel) was already present
> in Hard Times, with 
> none of the utter *stupidity* inherent to Virus."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     Although I enjoyed the mechanics of TNE, like
> you, I loathed the 
> backstory.  IMHO, Virus was completely unnecessary. 
> The Black War and Hard 
> Times had already provided all the destruction that
> was needed.
>      Turning Chartered Space into a 57th century
> version of Auschwitz was 
> disgusting.  How many trillions of sentients were
> killed for the sake of a 
> extremely weak, ill-concieved plot device?  Sure
> rebuilding interstellar 
> civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause for any
> campaign, but setting that 
> campaign in an interstellar abattoir is simply too
> much.
>      From a metagame standpoint, Virus is little
> more than a systemic 
> punctuation mark.  As each new Traveller system was
> launched, it's creators 
> felt a need to seperate it from what had come
> before.  DGP seperated MT from 
> CT by introducing the Rebellion.  GDW needed
> something to drive home the 
> fact of TNE's uniqueness, hence Virus.  This bit of
> one-upmanship was 
> unfortunate and entirely human.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN
> Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020227140743.89525.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<Sure rebuilding interstellar civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause
for any campaign, but setting that campaign in an interstellar abattoir
is simply too much.>>

The show "Andromeda" uses the same plot device (rebuilding
civilization) without falling back on slaughtering trillions of
innocents to reach their "Long Night."

I love the TNE rules, because I can port in Twilight: 2000/Merc:
2000/Dark Conspiracy stuff directly.  One could easily play TNE in a
virus-free 1201, adventuring among the polities established in Hard
Times (I was particularly taken with the Unity of Promise, and their
becoming a "Borg" world in TNE never set right with me).

=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:08:02 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <F145Dwi3xXDUUQcWf0L00009ebd@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "I'm ambivalent on this. However I tend to agree with Dave Nilsen on 
the other reason he gave for sweeping everything of the Imperium away to 
make room for the new - for any one faction to win would mean that the 
slaughter of billions was in some way justified. I suspect that for any 
faction to even survive would've been just as bad in Dave's eyes, though 
obviously I don't speak for him."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I see.  None of the factions, who slaughtered billions, deserved to 
either "win" or continue to exist, so Mr. Nilsen slaughtered trillions to 
prevent any chance of their "victory" and/or survival.
     That makes all sorts of sense, doesn't it?
     Virus and the Interstellar Abattoir are nothing more than a systemic 
punctuation mark.  They were a metagame concept that allowed TNE's creators 
to sweep away the OTU and give their concept a fresh field in which to grow. 
  Virus is a goofy a plot device as DGP's oh-so-carefully balanced factions 
in the "Rebellion-That-Would-Not-Die."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 14:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:15:53 +0000
Subject: [TML] Fun quote
Message-ID: <F172rLiiFpFhQpR3o7r00008c7b@hotmail.com>

From: knightsky@juno.com

     Taken from RPG Net

     http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/contract26feb02.html

     an article regarding meta-plots in RPGs: (snip)


Sir,

     An equally good quote from the same article;

     "What caused meta-plots to get a bad name? Bad meta-plots of course."



     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 14:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:41:30 +0000
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <F136FR0rmTIVvLVKi3s000005f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>

     "Ahh, I never thought I'd have to come down on the opposite side as 
Larsen Whipsnade. (sniffle)"


Mr. Yin,

     But, sir, that usually means you are in the right!

     "While I agree that Virus was ill-concieved in many ways, (My prior
discussion on the subject with Rupert Boleyn and others neatly outlines the 
flaws, IMO) I would refute an assumption that rested on the uselessness of 
the TNE universe."

     My poor prose style strikes yet again.  I do not think the TNE mileau 
is useless or even worthless.  I do think TNE could have been setup through 
the effects of the Hard Times alone.  Virus was nothing more than a 
completely unnecessary and morally reprehensible (they've killed so many 
people, so I'll kill the rest) meta-plot gimmick.
     My problems with Virus don't lie with it's dubious scientific 
plausibility, after all the OTU sports jump drive, contra-grav, and a host 
of other devices of dubious scientific plausibility.  Instead, my problems 
with Virus lie in it's "gimmick-ness", it's "what the hell, trash it all, 
the Rebellion destroyed it anyway, we might as well finish the job" nature.  
What turns me off is the idea that the OTU was so damaged, so fraught with 
villians, so disgusting that the only thing left to do was destroy it.

     "However, I was always more drawn by the end of the world aspect.  (Of 
course, I have always been partial to apocolyptic scenarios)"

     A TNE that flowed from the Hard Times would have given you that without 
the introduction of Virus.

     "The motivations of the authors aside, the bitterness with which TNE's 
apocolypse was recieved by many older players might be a good sign that they 
just weren't willing to part with what they had."

     But we already had.  The Rebellion had already destroyed the Imperium, 
destroying everything else was unnecessary.  If the creation of Virus was 
supposedly meant to ensure that none of the Rebellion's factions "won", then 
why did Virus also destroy the Heirate, the 2000 Worlds, the Extents, the 
Federation, and a host of other polities that had nothing to do with the 
Rebellion?
     Virus was little more than a mechanism to wipe the OTU clean.  As TNE 
reintroduced each bit of Traveller, the Hivers here, the Ithklur there, and 
the Kanon Kops screamed about any lapses in continuity, TNE's creators could 
simply say "Oh, that was before Virus, things are different now."  Virus was 
an excuse, a get-out-jail-free card.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:04:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:04:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] 2nd GT Far Trader Q [math]
Message-ID: <3C7CF598.9A744981@mail.cswnet.com>

Ok. I wanna be sure I've got the right formula for this BTN thing.

Arba wtn: 2.5 + Lunion wtn: 5.5 + wtcm: .5 - range mod: -1 =7.5

What I'm concerned about is the range mod. I know that there was
some errata on it, but I think I have it correct. I ask because I've
seen others doing a 6 parsec range study of trade volume for Arba and
their numbers don't click with mine.

So, did I get it right?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Dr Evil Junior [!?], Arba Port Director, among other things...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:09:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:09:33 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <200202270409.g1R49A1X021117@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1bfa0$e1b20f20$085d8690@computer>

> From: RBasler1@aol.com
> What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?

Gvegh Vargr.  Red meat and copious quantities of beer.

: )

What?  Oh.

Failing that, IMTU, there is a sizeable area influenced by Sword Worlds
culture.  Again, Red Meat and Beer.  Perhaps I should have written Sword
Worlds "culture", but then, most writers have tended to slag off the Sword
Worlds.  They probably aren't quite as bad as they get presented.

The actual 'default' culture is probably what happens on Rhylanor and/or
Mora.  I dunno what that is - it hasn't been specified.

I guess it's up to you.  Library paste sounds good.  Hmm.  I like that
sentence, for some reason.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

"Library paste sounds good."







From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:00:34 +1000
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <002001c1bfa0$e11c85e0$085d8690@computer>

> From: "Jeff Yin" 
> Ahh, I never thought I'd have to come down on the opposite side as Larsen
> Whipsnade. (sniffle)

Check your pockets!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:14:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
In-Reply-To: <OE56F1IT18olkDTM9wG00000b85@hotmail.com>
References: <3C7C2BD3.2EA9241B@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227071330.009fbd90@mindspring.com>

At 06:43 PM 2/26/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Why is it we can find enough
>material for an entire book on Imperial *ground* forces and not the IN?

Because I'm a complete Army goober?

FWIU, there is a Navy book in the works.  Beyond that, I know nothing.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:24:05 +1000
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
References: <200202271441.g1REfjPS007810@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c1bfa2$e49287e0$085d8690@computer>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> assuming you like the idea of the  IN IYTU having a somewhat
> anachronistic Age of Fighting Sail feel to it  :)

Ah yes.  Rum, sodomy and the lash - the basis for any sensible interstellar
empire.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:37:22 -0000
Subject: [TML] Tangentially Related - Nautical
References: <OF3BB72438.55C533D7-ON85256B68.0078EC2E@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <003401c1bfa4$5da01ac0$2000a8c0@imogen>

Jo wrote:
> Nevertheless, seeking inspiration anywhere, they've got some cool
> sites. The example quoted below is from their site for buying
> /selling ships.
>
(http://www.marinedigital.com/en/mall/ship/index.asp?menu_code=ShipPurchaseR
egister).
> If you are looking for inspiration or color text for Traveller
> ships, it might not be a bad place to browse. Of if you ever
> wondered how much a Norwegian Patrol Cruiser would set you back...

Interesting.  I find it a little surreal that you can pick up  an
oil tanker or bulk cargo carrier and put it in a "shopping cart"!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:18:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:18:34 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <200202242159.g1OLxLUa013551@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003901c1bfa4$6cf323a0$2000a8c0@imogen>

Eris wrote:
> Go to ardi.com and look at Executor.  I've used the demo version to
> run Rob Prior's programs under Windows 95/98, and in Windows 3.1 under
> OS/2. Both setup quickly and ran acceptablly. I've never tried the
> Linux version, or felt the need to purchace the commercial version,
> though, so I can't speak for those.

Thanks.  That looks like just what I was after.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:25:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:25:25 -0000
Subject: [TML] StuffOnline
References: <000001c1be7e$ed3f4d30$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <003a01c1bfa4$6e62e040$2000a8c0@imogen>

Just a quick note: the StuffOnline  website  is  offline  at  the
moment due to several simultaneous technical glitches at the  ISP
... but it shall return.  (Email is unaffected.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 26 18:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:45:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Silliness
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEPECLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <003501c1bfa4$6772c0c0$2000a8c0@imogen>

Apparently I'm a "True Neutral Elf Ranger Mage"

Now if "mage" was my primary class and "ranger" was my  secondary
class I could almost buy it, but a better fit would  be  to  just
drop the "ranger" bit altogether.

Regards PLST
(Looking forward to the Traveller version of the test.)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:34:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:34:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traveller Campaign Idea - 2272002
In-Reply-To: <F145Dwi3xXDUUQcWf0L00009ebd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020227153424.94587.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>

TRAVELLER Campaign Idea  2272002


The PCs are members of the crew of the Far Trader
Bakin Bred trying to keep their heads, in some cases
literally, in the midst of the Rebellion. On a routine
run between worlds they stumble on a dying IRIS agent
who reveals plans by a rogue faction within the
company who have set plans in motion to eliminate all
pretenders to the Iridium Throne in the hopes of
ending the rebellion. Now the PCs are marked for
death unless they can find a way to outwit the rogue
faction and get help.  


__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 15:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:37:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <200202251713.g1PHDL7m015329@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020227153953.KWEJ277.dorsey@link>

There are legitimately differing schools of thought about whether it is
best to respond above the quoted material or below it.  As you can see, I
generally prefer above.  Of course, there are times when we intersperse and
thus please both schools.  Or are we angering both schools?  ;->

I agree with the rest of your grumbles about too many people not having the
sense to trim quoted material to only what is essential for the reader, etc.

--Laning
"People are stupid.  Think I'm kidding, don't ya?  I can prove it.  Look at
the way they drive."  -Gallagher
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 at 09:58:03 -0700, Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> typed:
>Another list I am on is commonly received in digest format.  Not only
>can some folks not insert quote delimiters, not only do they often
>respond _above_ the quoted material, but they also and often do not
>trim the excess, resulting in massive posts consisting of the entire
>digest containing the message being replied to.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <F136FR0rmTIVvLVKi3s000005f2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020227160123.98417.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com>

"so fraught with villians, so disgusting that the only
thing left to do was destroy it."

I guess VIRUS was supposed to be some kind of Wrath of
God deal.

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
> 
>      "Ahh, I never thought I'd have to come down on
> the opposite side as 
> Larsen Whipsnade. (sniffle)"
> 
> 
> Mr. Yin,
> 
>      But, sir, that usually means you are in the
> right!
> 
>      "While I agree that Virus was ill-concieved in
> many ways, (My prior
> discussion on the subject with Rupert Boleyn and
> others neatly outlines the 
> flaws, IMO) I would refute an assumption that rested
> on the uselessness of 
> the TNE universe."
> 
>      My poor prose style strikes yet again.  I do
> not think the TNE mileau 
> is useless or even worthless.  I do think TNE could
> have been setup through 
> the effects of the Hard Times alone.  Virus was
> nothing more than a 
> completely unnecessary and morally reprehensible
> (they've killed so many 
> people, so I'll kill the rest) meta-plot gimmick.
>      My problems with Virus don't lie with it's
> dubious scientific 
> plausibility, after all the OTU sports jump drive,
> contra-grav, and a host 
> of other devices of dubious scientific plausibility.
>  Instead, my problems 
> with Virus lie in it's "gimmick-ness", it's "what
> the hell, trash it all, 
> the Rebellion destroyed it anyway, we might as well
> finish the job" nature.  
> What turns me off is the idea that the OTU was so
> damaged, so fraught with 
> villians, so disgusting that the only thing left to
> do was destroy it.
> 
>      "However, I was always more drawn by the end of
> the world aspect.  (Of 
> course, I have always been partial to apocolyptic
> scenarios)"
> 
>      A TNE that flowed from the Hard Times would
> have given you that without 
> the introduction of Virus.
> 
>      "The motivations of the authors aside, the
> bitterness with which TNE's 
> apocolypse was recieved by many older players might
> be a good sign that they 
> just weren't willing to part with what they had."
> 
>      But we already had.  The Rebellion had already
> destroyed the Imperium, 
> destroying everything else was unnecessary.  If the
> creation of Virus was 
> supposedly meant to ensure that none of the
> Rebellion's factions "won", then 
> why did Virus also destroy the Heirate, the 2000
> Worlds, the Extents, the 
> Federation, and a host of other polities that had
> nothing to do with the 
> Rebellion?
>      Virus was little more than a mechanism to wipe
> the OTU clean.  As TNE 
> reintroduced each bit of Traveller, the Hivers here,
> the Ithklur there, and 
> the Kanon Kops screamed about any lapses in
> continuity, TNE's creators could 
> simply say "Oh, that was before Virus, things are
> different now."  Virus was 
> an excuse, a get-out-jail-free card.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE's Virus (was: Re: Hard Times - some thoughts)
Message-ID: <20020227160736.84686.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

<professor voice>
Here we see the natural escalation in the all too
common "flame war".  While this is not the war yet, it
could be related to the arms build up of an actual
war.
</professor voice> 

> From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
...snip...
> (People who have a problem with the *science* of
>  Virus but accept J-drives, Ancients, and antigrav
>  amuse me.)
...snip.

Not to mention having a problem with the explanation
of a potential form of life that we know little (if
anything) about (ie, silicon-based).

Just my opinion.

In any case, while I know that most everyone has a
love/hate relationship with Virus, I never gave it too
much thought.  I took it as a Plot Device along the
lines of StarTrak plot devices.  IMO, it was there to
define why things were the way they were, and offer
the GM a "bad guy" if one didn't exist.

I think the greatness of TNE was the Coalition.  Now I
know the idea of Star Vikings didn't sit well with
some folks, but it didn't sit well with some folks in
the Coalition either.  There were so many opposing
sides that it opened many a door for PC's to step on
someones toes and create enemies while at the same
time doing another higher up a favor (or even doing
their job).

Also, I got the distinct impression that the OTU was
headed somewhere with the backstory.  We get a glimpse
of that in Vampire Fleets & Regency Sourcebook, and we
hear the rumors and suggestions from T20 that there
was (and will be) more backstory.  Unfortunately, GDW
passed (RIP) before they were able to to explain what
had happened everywhere else and where the OTU was
headed.  Of course, by the time Vampire Fleets &
Regency Sourcebook came out, most everyone had already

determined which side of that love/hate fence they
were on, so where we went from the post apocolyptic
TNE was moot to those on the hate side.

Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:10:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:10:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] GT Alien Modules
Message-ID: <20020227161000.52630.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Couple of questions about the info in the GT alien
modules.

Are they the same information in previous alien
modules?

How much does it differ from OTU?

How much will change as the OTU goes forward?

I know that the rules applied int he books are going
to be Gurps rules, but I'm more interested in the
information.

Thanks,
Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:13:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:13:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
Message-ID: <OFF53304FB.FD1C5DBD-ON85256B6D.005694B3@pheaa.org>







 <Snip>
--assuming you like the idea of the  IN IYTU having a somewhat
anachronistic Age of Fighting Sail feel to it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
</Snip>

Ken,

David Webber did the same thing with his Honor Harrington Sci-Fi Series. I
loved the series so much i am modelling my IN after the Royal Manticorian
Navy. if i get this group I'm about to GM in traveller to like the game. i
am going to try and do a campaign based in the RMN. This will be their
first experience with traveller. So I'm going to try and keep it as close
to canon as possible. i feel like a fisherman. i got the bait and the hook
in the water and I'm just trying to get them to take a bite 8)

David Weber has obviously read Horatio Hornblower. I would also be willing
to bet he has read Alexander Kent's "Richard Bolitho" series, and of course
Patrick O'Brian's works.

Some one on this list suggested reading Mr. Weber's work and i did. I fell
in love with it. picked up 1 book and never set them down till i read them
all, including the short stories that where published.

hasta

Bill Lane




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:26:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <200202260419.g1Q4Jrfq018655@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020227162839.MAXI277.dorsey@link>

Haven't read 'Bug Jack Baron'.  'Iron Dream' raised a fairly big and
controversial stink at the time of its publication (late 1960s?) because of
two things:

It seemed to be comparing certain unnamed but very popular SF writers to,
um, well, Adolf Hitler.

It seemed to be saying that what most of us enjoy reading in a lot of our
SF was pretty much what that whole Nazi racist, elitist, genocide thing was
also about.

These were both ideas that were truly worth examining, and it's a shame
that so few have read the book.  As usual with these kinds of things, what
answers could be found to the questions it raised were not simple answers
nor final answers.  I don't think it did a lot for Spinrad's popularity
within the rather closed world of SF writers and editors though.  I imagine
some of them felt targeted and resentful.  The book was an overall success,
and I think it may have won awards too, so it's not like he ticked off
_everybody_.   :->

The author of the Hannibal Lecter books did something similar recently.  He
had been saying he wouldn't write any more of them because they were sick
and twisted.  It bothered him a lot what it did to his own mind in writing
them and having to inhabit the characters, etc. while writing them.  It
also bothered him how much people _liked_ and requested more Hannibal
Lecter.  In the event, he wrote the third book, a couple of years ago.  The
recent film was from that book.  If you read it, he seems to be saying some
things about his audience and about the Lecter character that Spinrad would
probably approve of.  The book was both a popular success and a critical
success, which is rare.  The film removed all of that subtext, basically
becoming exactly what Harris was being critical of in the first place.  The
film also changed the ending quite a lot.  Ah, Hollywood.

Back to Spinrad's 'Iron Dream', it's funny but it really was a pretty
rollicking fun read.  The thinly veiled subtext can be ignored and you get
straightforward and simple SF adventure.  Humans as the good guys, lots of
aliens as the bad guys, fast paced conflict and adventure, triumph in the
end over piles of dead guys' bodies.  Not so different really from
Harrison's 'Stainless Steel Rat For President' (or whichever one the Rat
has to wear an alien suit in).  I am pretty sure the Rat book was written
after 'Iron Dream', btw.  You could probably use it for Traveller adventure
seeds that most players would enjoy.  Probably quite a few readers read it
on this level without ever noticing the subtext at all.  Hmm, come to think
of it, Harrison's 'Death World' books also examine this issue.  And again,
many people are fans not because of the underlying points he made but
because he did such a cool job of the violence.

My own take on the issue is that there is a difference between escapist
fiction in which a superhuman protagonist slaughters legions of
congenitally stupid, evil aliens who oppose him and being a racist in real
life.  There can also be a difference between that much violence in your
escapist fiction and a propensity for aggressive violence in real life, at
least if you're sufficiently mature and self aware.  So, go ahead and
slaughter orcs folks, it's fun!  :->

--Laning, evilly responding above the quote since 1994
traveller geek code:  tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+
ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Mon, 25 Feb at 2002 16:33:52 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) typed:
>In mail you write [quoting me, Laning]:
>
>> Valid and interesting points.  But this whole discussion is starting to
>> remind me of a certain novel.  Norman Spinrad's 'Iron Dream', anyone?
>
>I haven't read that one. "Bug Jack Baron" was bad enough. Not badly
>written, the *concept* was evil. And "tacky" evil at that.
>
>Which was part of the point, really.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:41:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:41:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <20020227153953.KWEJ277.dorsey@link>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:37:39AM -0500
References: <200202251713.g1PHDL7m015329@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020227153953.KWEJ277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020227094122.A7271@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:37:39AM -0500, Laning wrote:
>
> There are legitimately differing schools of thought about whether it
> is best to respond above the quoted material or below it.

I don't mean to be rude, but I cannot agree.  The convention adopted
by the _vast_ majority of Usenet posters since time immemorial has
been to quote above, and intersperse quote with reply.  The reasons
for this are several, but the chief are two.  First, it gives context
to the response.  E.g. when I read your reply I had to scroll down a
screen (hoping that you quoted below), or dredge my memory trying to
recall what it could have been in response to.

Second, it encourages trimming of quotes.  When they are at the top,
their length is apparent.  At the bottom, they are all-too-easy to
ignore.  Users of Lotus Notes in a corporate environment may have
encountered this distressing phenomenon: many times in my inbox
arrives some mail which has crawled the twisted hallways of IBM,
growing with each respondent until it has reached some gargantuan
size, when it could have been a one-liner.

> I agree with the rest of your grumbles about too many people not
> having the sense to trim quoted material to only what is essential
> for the reader, etc.

Even worse than these are those who do not delimit their quotes.
Imagine the raving horror of trying to keep track of what two
Fr. Johns are writing when neither has bothered to indicate quotation
of the other and both are arguing quite vehemently:-(

Then there are those whose mail readers enjoy putting everything on
one long line.

Yes, I'm a sad, bitter young man with nothing better to do with my
time:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The original Constitutional purpose for an armed citizenry...is to
intimidate the government.                         --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:58:38 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3C7C920B.FFC612D7@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271857420.9962-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
> You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.

Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 16:54:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:54:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: RBasler1@aol.com

>Well, by slow and tottering steps, I am finally getting a few players
together for a CT
>nostalgia-game set in the Spinward Marches, but that got me thinking:  What
>is the 'default'culture of the Marches?

Further to my earlier comments on your excellent question, powerful cultures
impose uniformity in differing degrees and by different methods.  The Soviet
Union tried to make everyone in its borders Russian, from the Lithuanians to
the Kazakhs, and freely used force in a variety of ways to do so.  The
United States tries to get everyone -- whether within its borders or not --
to drink coke, wear tshirts with corporate logos, and speak English, but
doesn't use the force to do so.  It doesn't have to; it has television.

In my Imperium, the Ministry of Culture has some vision of Imperial culture,
which it tries to propagate primarily by advertising.  All of those Sylean
Opera holovids are paid for the Ministry of Culture, for example, but so are
those lessons in standard Galanglic for school children and news anchors.
Because of the social compact at the heart of the Imperium -- local autonomy
and protection of interstellar commerce in return for taxes, the draft, and
giving up control of foreign policy -- the Imperium can't and won't try to
force a uniform culture on its member states.

Nevertheless, some shared cultural assumptions are helpful, and there is a
need for an identity, given the size and power of the Imperium's more
homogenous neighbors.  That is the reason for the Ministry of Culture.

So what culture does the MoC envision?  By the 1100s, it incorporates
Sylean, Solomani, and Vilani aspects, although earlier in history the Vilani
were an ignored majority.  Exactly what this means in terms of values,
institutions, assumptions about behavior and motivation, and outward
expresssions I'll leave for another day, and maybe another list.  (I'm
posting this email and your original post to the Traveller-Culture List.)

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>
>A good read about language development is one of Neal Stephenson's books,
>whose title escapes me at the moment -- the one with the pizza delivery guy
>and the skateboard messenger -- White Noise? Snowstorm?  I don't recall.

Snow Crash.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:17:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] 2nd GT Far Trader Q [math]
In-Reply-To: <3C7CF598.9A744981@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014830241.3010.ajackson@ping>

Roseberry writes:
> Ok. I wanna be sure I've got the right formula for this BTN thing.
> 
> Arba wtn: 2.5 + Lunion wtn: 5.5 + wtcm: .5 - range mod: -1 =7.5
> 
> What I'm concerned about is the range mod. I know that there was
> some errata on it, but I think I have it correct. I ask because I've
> seen others doing a 6 parsec range study of trade volume for Arba and
> their numbers don't click with mine.
> 
> So, did I get it right?

Well, you missed the cap of (lower WTN *2 +1) which leaves you at 6.0

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:19:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:19:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] GT Alien Modules
In-Reply-To: <20020227161000.52630.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014830365.7419.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Couple of questions about the info in the GT alien
> modules.
> 
> Are they the same information in previous alien
> modules?

For major races, pretty much; some detail may have been invented.  Many of the
minor races are new.
> 
> How much does it differ from OTU?

They should be the same as pre-Rebellion OTU, though errors are possible.
> 
> How much will change as the OTU goes forward?

No clue.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:29:18 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271857420.9962-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271927590.19625-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> > You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
> Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.

This is what comes of thinking when tired: four points are necesary if you
have only distances.

(The source of tiredness? The Planck satellite might have a point source
extraction part sometime in the future.)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:37:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:37:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fun quote
References: <20020227.083037.-199695.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C7D1976.457C80B8@premier.net>



knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Taken from RPG Net (specifically
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/contract26feb02.html), in an
> article regarding meta-plots in RPGs:
> 
> "A nod must be made to Traveller players, who possess a fanaticism about
> what is canon met only by certain Syrian clerics during the great
> Christological debates or some of the most fanatical members of the Great
> Books lobby, who think that a text needs to age like a fine wine and who
> don't want the children of the world looking at any words that postdate
> the Gilded Age. I'm surprised there aren't players following Marc Miller
> around in the attempt to compose the T-hadith. Just in case."

And the problem with this is...? ;-)

For the record, I am a believer in the Great Books concept (even though
I haven't yet read all the books on the University of Chicago canon).

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:55:53 +0000
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <F144xQFM83UV8wAddX400000a10@hotmail.com>

From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>

     "I love the TNE rules, because I can port in Twilight: 2000/Merc:
2000/Dark Conspiracy stuff directly."


Mr. Harris,

     Yup.  The mechanics of TNE are good.  It gave us FF&S and Brilliant 
Lances.  You can import lots of stuff from GDW's other RPG lines too.
     The rules are good, it's the setting that sucks.

     "One could easily play TNE in a virus-free 1201, adventuring among the 
polities established in Hard Times (I was particularly taken with the Unity 
of Promise, and their becoming a "Borg" world in TNE never set right with 
me)."

     Promise, and it's nascent pocket, empire was just another victim of the 
"smash all hopes and wipe it clean" mindset that launched the TNE setting.  
Apparently the Unity of Promise was evil due to it's understanding with 
Margaret's faction and deserved destruction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 17:54:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:54:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3C7C920B.FFC612D7@premier.net>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOAEGNCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

As I see it, in the OTU (whether it be CT, MT, TNE etc.) there should be a
large number of navigation "landmarks". In each of these universes, people
have been looking at space for hundreds or thousands of years with
Hubble-like technology, noting all the weird and unique
stars/galaxies/nebula/pulsars etc.

I figure that a rather extensive database exists on dozens if not hundreds
of these "landmarks" from all the galaxies in the skies...  after a misjump,
any ship with a telescope (standard issue I would think) and a working
computer could get its bearings in a matter of hours.

IMTU, getting lost is not an issue, getting back is the hard part =)

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: February 27, 2002 12:00 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...

> If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
> on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
> deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:03:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271857420.9962-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014833032.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen writes:
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
> > You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
> 
> Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.

Hm...actually, I don't think so, unless you may have gone through a left-right
inversion during the misjump.  There's two positions at the correct set of
distances, but they have different angles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 18:09:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:09:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271857420.9962-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3C7D20C7.FCE33908@premier.net>



"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
> > You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
> 
> Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.

Upon further review, I see what you mean.  Three known points appears to
give you two possible locations.  A fourth known point nails it down.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 18:30:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:30:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] "Anti"-gearheads  (was: T5)
In-Reply-To: <200202270409.g1R49A1X021117@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020227183243.PBNK277.dorsey@link>

I am about to respond below the quote.  Wait for it...

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>     "They had "artifical gravity" on a space station and described it in 
>"detail" as being a magnetic field working on metal stips in the crew's 
>clothes."
>
>     "Then they showed someone pouring coffee into an open cup..."
>
>     "You also don't have to explain things like how a magnetic field can 
>affect coffee. <g> "
>

It's obvious after you think about it.  They were on a Normal Spinless
station, right?  So they used The Iron Beans to brew the coffee.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 18:41:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:41:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE's Virus (Was: Hard Times - some thoughts)
Message-ID: <20020227184146.42016.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
...snipage...
> If the creation of Virus was supposedly meant to
> ensure that none of the Rebellion's factions "won",
> then why did Virus also destroy the Heirate, the
> 2000 Worlds, the Extents, the Federation, and a host
> of other polities that had nothing to do with
> the Rebellion?

Two words:  Power Vaccuum.  With the Imperium
destroyed in any way resembling anything like Virus,
and not destroying the "neighbors" there would be a
hugh vaccuum effect by the other polity in the
neighborhood.

Now, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but that
was not the desired result of those designing the
backstory.  (As a side note, has anyone considered
what the "known space" map would have looked like in a
case like the above?).

> Virus was little more than a mechanism to wipe the
> OTU clean.

So was Rebellion.  So is Gurps "It was all a dream." 
One could argue that the "Long Night" was simply there
to wipe the "Earthlings in space" idea clean.  The
collapse in Foundation is a plot device to create the
foundation (no pun intended) of a story.

My point is that as a plot device, it served its
purpose.  You may not like it, but it was effective.


> As TNE reintroduced each bit of Traveller, the
> Hivers here, the Ithklur there, and the Kanon Kops
> screamed about any lapses in continuity, TNE's
> creators could simply say "Oh, that was before
> Virus, things are different now."

Sorry, but this begs the question.  There are no
"lapses in continuity" before TNE?  Maybe there were
some, but none as drastic as some suggestions I've
heard around here.  (Like invalidate DGP)

Besides whenever any projects get as big as Traveller
was at the time of TNE, there are bound to be some
contradictions.  Would you expect the GDW folks to
say, "Oops, sorry, you're right.  Cancel that new book
we've invested so much time and money in and just use
the old and out of print stuff."  Maybe the research
could have been better, but that can be said about any
number of Traveller products (and has).

> Virus was an excuse, a get-out-jail-free card.

Not so.  At least not any more than any other plot
device is.  A plot device is something used to further
a story along.  As I understood it, GDW had a story to
tell with TNE and the plot device was necessary to
create a backdrop for that story.

In any case, as I said in a previous post, most people
have a love/hate relationship with Virus.  When I was
on the TML before (mid 90's) and even since I've come
back, I haven't seen a single person change their mind
based on the validations given by the other side.  But
it does make for good _______ (insert one here: 
"discussion", "debate", "argument", "flame wars").

Paul


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 18:53:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:53:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C7D2B0C.1010508@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Further to my earlier comments on your excellent question, powerful cultures
> impose uniformity in differing degrees and by different methods.  The Soviet
> Union tried to make everyone in its borders Russian, from the Lithuanians to
> the Kazakhs, and freely used force in a variety of ways to do so.  The
> United States tries to get everyone -- whether within its borders or not --
> to drink coke, wear tshirts with corporate logos, and speak English, but
> doesn't use the force to do so.  It doesn't have to; it has television.

Flawed analogy. The United States, per se does none of those things.

Cocal Cola tries to get everyone to drink Coke, McDonalds to eat Big 
Macs (or "Royales with Cheese"). Nike, GAP and others try to get 
everyone to wear the same tee shirts, etc.

In Traveller (and real-world, for that matter) terms, it doesn't mean 
the _Imperium_ has a culture, it means the Megacorps do. Their culture 
is 'whatever it takes to sell more widgets/teeshirts/sugar water/etc.' 
and as such often takes it's cues from popula culture, which itself is 
often influenced by advertising in a sort of odd feedback structure.

So the proper answers to the questions posed "What are the regional, 
local, etc 'cultures' in the Spinward Marches", has a LOT to do with the 
omnipresent, but ill-defined (in canon) megacorp influences.

What ARE the mass media like, how omnipresent is advertising, do the 
people on dirt-poor rockballs surround themselves with the imagery, if 
not the trappings of highly advertised goods? Coca Cola Ads on their 
buildings, even if they can't afford Coke... These are the questions to 
answer for us to determine what our culture is like.

Unfortunately, ours is really the first culture where _popular_ culture 
has been rather well preserved; prior to the 19th century little of any 
of how the huddled masses lived has been preserved. Most of what we know 
is of the upper classes, and most of that, in fact, is little more than 
fragmentary.

Be a real bitch if we someday invent a time machine, go back in time and 
find out all those painted friezes on the Mayan temples weren't literal 
history, but telenovelas, interspersed with ads for Xapotecs Liver Tonic...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 20:04:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:04:47 -0700
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
References: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOAEGNCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <3C7D3BDF.3020103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Geoff @ MotionBlur wrote:
> As I see it, in the OTU (whether it be CT, MT, TNE etc.) there should be a
> large number of navigation "landmarks". In each of these universes, people
> have been looking at space for hundreds or thousands of years with
> Hubble-like technology, noting all the weird and unique
> stars/galaxies/nebula/pulsars etc.
> 
> I figure that a rather extensive database exists on dozens if not hundreds
> of these "landmarks" from all the galaxies in the skies...  after a misjump,
> any ship with a telescope (standard issue I would think) and a working
> computer could get its bearings in a matter of hours.

Moreover, I suspect one of the tasks of the IISS, or more likely, Office 
of Calendar Compliance, is to place and maintain a network of Imperial 
'GPS' system of known radio sources.

All they have to be are transmitters in a specific frequency band, they 
simply (as do modern GPS satellites) broadcast their ID and time.

While these would be of little utility in the very early years of the 
Imperium, in the decades that followed they would become quite useful as 
the signal waves travel across the parsecs.

Your position could be fixed quite accurately if you listen hard enough 
to gain sufficient different signals. In the central imperium you would 
have the choice of hundreds of them...

All it requires is a syncronized clock system..."the time is now 
7,568,765,456 seconds since the founding of the Third Imperium."

The ID fixes the location, the time count you recieve tells you how far 
away you are. As a backup signal location could be used to get your 
vector to the transmitter.

For misjump purposes you would use both techniques: directional vecotrs 
to tell *where* you are, and the time ticks to tell *when* you are.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:08:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <20020227.152742.-173243.0.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST) Gerry Harris
<harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:

> I love the TNE rules, because I can port in Twilight: 2000/Merc:
> 2000/Dark Conspiracy stuff directly.  

Hmm... a TNE/Dark Conspiracy crossover game, in which the *real* power
behind the Solomani is revealed...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 20:13:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:13:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People (fwd)
Message-ID: <20020227.152742.-173243.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:06:40 -0500 "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
writes:

> >Not only is The Iron Dream an extremely twisted book, it's also the
> inspiration for my D&D elves...
> 
> Perry<
> 
> Ewwwwwwwww.
> 
> If you tell me you use the Men in the Jungle for your dwarves I 
> truly pity your players.

I hadn't thought of that before... but what an *interesting* idea... ;-) 



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 20:22:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:22:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <20020227.152742.-173243.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:12:56 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

> Sir,

*looks around*

Oh, wait, you're talking to me?  No "Sir" here (I've never been
knighted!).  ;-)
 
>     Although I enjoyed the mechanics of TNE, like you, I loathed the 
> backstory.  IMHO, Virus was completely unnecessary.  The Black War 
> and Hard Times had already provided all the destruction that was
needed.

Agreed (but you already knew that, didn't you?)

>      Turning Chartered Space into a 57th century version of 
> Auschwitz was disgusting.  How many trillions of sentients were killed
for the 
> sake of a extremely weak, ill-concieved plot device?  Sure rebuilding 
> interstellar civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause for any campaign,
but 
> setting that campaign in an interstellar abattoir is simply too much.

"To save Traveller, we had to destroy the Imperium..."

But save it from what?

>      From a metagame standpoint, Virus is little more than a 
> systemic punctuation mark.  As each new Traveller system was launched,
it's 
> creators felt a need to seperate it from what had come before.  DGP
seperated 
> MT from CT by introducing the Rebellion.  GDW needed something to drive
home 
> the fact of TNE's uniqueness, hence Virus.  This bit of one-upmanship 
> was unfortunate and entirely human.

Part of my problem with TNE is that, despite all the familiar names, it
just doesn't *feel* like Traveller to me.  Rather, it felt like someone's
non-Traveller campaign grafted onto the Traveller setting.  I'm not
saying that's what happened, just what my first impression of TNE was.

<Dennis Miller voice>

"But of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

<Dennis Miller voice> 



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 20:18:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:18:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <20.24808c5b.29ad540e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDMFHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

If I had my vote, I'd say something based on a de-miled version of the
'culture' of the Imperial Navy.  Being the only imperium wide, popularly
accessible institution in the Imperium as well as a major conduit for social
advancement the IN consciously model a forcas'le version of a pidgin
Noblesque style, with a number of the more extravagant excesses worn away.
This is probably more prevalent in the frontier sectors then the interior.

Regarding the food, there undoubtly a Chinese restaurant serving 'something
that taste's like chicken' chow mien, with too high a proportion of whatever
is cheapest.  Generically I would suspect it's vat grown and boasts a lively
name like BEF-1238-gndAlge19, and they stick you with anlagen to prevent
allergies during boot camp.  The cultural and intestinal fauna issue of
procuring fresh don't bear thinking about.

Air Traffic Controllers, port employees, migr workers, merchants, armed
force people probably all speak a kind of lingua franca, in addition to
whatever their birth language is.  Intelligibility could be about a
Yorkshire man talking to pretty much anyone talking to a American
southerner.

A travelers could probably get by knowing this culture and be recognized as
not from here wherever he or she went.  
jml


Well, by slow and tottering steps, I am finally getting a few players
together for a CT nostalgia-game set in the Spinward Marches, but that got
me thinking:  What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?  I am assuming
that the usual language heard in Galanglic, even if it is usually written
with Vilani characters, but what about the rest of it?  The local
AstroBurger franchise can be assumed to serve food recognisable to the
average Solomani (and the average player), but what if the players were to
walk into a random eatery and order a steak?  Would it arrive in one piece,
seared over a gas flame and served with a side order of baked tubers and
finely-shredded cabbage soaked in some white sauce, or would it be chopped
into small pieces, soaked in brine, boiled for a few hours while chanting
traditional mantras before serving it with a sauce nearly too spicy to
consume and a side order of white stuff that looks like library paste but
lacks the flavor?  And would the other p!
atrons be feeding themselves, or would they be sitting in small groups,
feeding each other?  If the players were to open a ration tin in their
emergency pack, would it contain ham and beans, or more of that library
paste (and would you need antacids or antihistimines after eating it)?
Would most of the people be speaking Galanglic, or is that merely a 'trade'
or 'official' language, with a large portion of sophonts speaking Vilani or
English or Spanish or something utterly unrecognizable?  In other words,
what is the 'mean culture', and how wide is the standard deviation?

Rod Basler - COFIT (Crotchety Old Fart In Training)


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:01:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:01:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202271311000.23894-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202271311000.23894-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <p04330111b8a2f80dbcd9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:13 PM +1030 2/27/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Hoi Jeff:
>
>  All  very nice looking for desires. I like the last one most of all and
>would love to add me to that one. <VBG>
>
>  However I would like to add that I would like to see or know the reason
>why there can't be, new products for CT. This possibly was discussed befor
>I joined the list. But why not new Ct products? Or for that matter for the
>other versions of Traveller?

Well, I assume that either nobody asked Marc if they could take the 
CT ruleset and use it to publish at line of books (or they did and he 
said no).  Generally, those who have wanted to publish a line have 
either sought to "update" the CT rule system (T4 and presumably "T5") 
or use a new rule system with the setting (GT and T20).

BITS writes things designed to work the lines that other people are 
publishing.  It is set up to work with different versions at once 
(CT, MT, T4, and GT).  Similarly, stuff from GURPS Traveller is set 
in a period that is very similar to CT (just roll be the clock a few 
years) and can be applied to a CT game.  Of course these are all 
background material.  As to new rule for CT, I think most people who 
want to stick with CT do so because it is simple and don't seek to 
add too many new rules...
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:10:53 -0000
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3C7D3BDF.3020103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEEFCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson
> Sent: 27 February 2002 20:05
>
> Moreover, I suspect one of the tasks of the IISS, or more likely, Office
> of Calendar Compliance, is to place and maintain a network of Imperial
> 'GPS' system of known radio sources.
>
> All they have to be are transmitters in a specific frequency band, they
> simply (as do modern GPS satellites) broadcast their ID and time.
>
> While these would be of little utility in the very early years of the
> Imperium, in the decades that followed they would become quite useful as
> the signal waves travel across the parsecs.
>
> Your position could be fixed quite accurately if you listen hard enough
> to gain sufficient different signals. In the central Imperium you would
> have the choice of hundreds of them...
>
> All it requires is a synchronized clock system..."the time is now
> 7,568,765,456 seconds since the founding of the Third Imperium."

Being a TNE GM this could be a horrible device; depending on the bandwidth
of this signal it could be an extremely long range/long lasting Virus
vector.  Not to mention complicating post Collapse navigation.  If such a
system has been in use for 500+ years (WEG), it is possible that this is the
_primary_ navigational standard.  I wonder how many ships (esp. the cheap
i.e. Free Traders) had any sort of backup to this??

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
A generation which ignores history has no past - and no future.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love by Robert Heinlein.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:20:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:54 AM -0800 2/27/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>The
>United States tries to get everyone -- whether within its borders or not --
>to drink coke, wear tshirts with corporate logos, and speak English, but
>doesn't use the force to do so.  It doesn't have to; it has television.

Actually, I don't think the US government does as much as most 
countries to spread its culture (for its own sake see below).  Nor do 
most Americans really care _that_ much about how it spread (they like 
stories about how people adapt American ways, but it it came down to 
that or cutting taxes, they would go for the tax cuts).

A lot of culture is spread by American corporations, but ironically 
they don't do it with that aim.  They are really trying to sell stuff 
and if they could make as much money selling stuff based on French 
culture (or whatever) they would do it in a heartbeat.  (Similarly, 
the use government supports lower barriers to, for example, Amercian 
movies but that is because they support selling American goods).

US culture has its position mostly through circumstance.  1) There is 
some tendency for the dominate power to get copied.  2) The US has a 
very large economy with means that it makes sense to sell to it first 
and then export to the rest of the world.  3) The preceding dominate 
culture (British) used the same language with means a lot of the path 
was already laid. 4) It happens to be occurring in a period where 
global communications are becoming routine.  5) The US culture is 
very open and adaptable (which allows it to incorporate and adapt 
things it finds useful from other cultures.  For example, one the 
most American foods, pizza, is clearly adapted from the similar (but 
not identical) Italian dish...

>
>In my Imperium, the Ministry of Culture has some vision of Imperial culture,
>which it tries to propagate primarily by advertising. '

In my Imperium, "Imperial Culture" is pretty much the culture that 
happened to form amongst those who are most exposed to interstellar 
commerce and communication (traders, ship crews, nobles, officials, 
etc.)  Galanglic itself is a hodpodge formed from the English of the 
rule of man with combining with other influences over time).

To me, if the Imperium isn't interested enough to even bother with 
the direct rule of most of the people, then it won't care that much 
about cultural issues.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:21:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:21:36 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <OE42Hd9Qjs9KUsYAUhj00012cb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEEGCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Yin
> Sent: 27 February 2002 02:38
>
> To be sure, many people did not want an apocalypse, and that is why TNE is
> either liked or disliked, in my opinion.  For me, TNE's most disturbing
> aspect was the initial assumption (even in the Regency) of the
> inherent evil
> in the Imperial system.  A theory which for me simply doesn't fly.

I always saw this as a bias by the people who survived the short nap.  The
Imperium was seen as inherently evil because of the way it failed.   Just as
fascism is seen as inherently evil due to the way it failed.

This bias coloured everything in their recollection of the past.  The Third
Imperium failed in an absolute and evil way QED the Imperial system was
inherently evil.  Not necessarily logical just human.

No I really don't want to go into 20th cent politics (On the TML), the above
example is simply used as it will be familiar to most of the readership and
does _not_ suggest any current political comment.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
A generation which ignores history has no past - and no future.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love by Robert Heinlein.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:29:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:29:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT Alien Modules
In-Reply-To: <20020227161000.52630.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020227161000.52630.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330113b8a2ff697877@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:10 AM -0800 2/27/02, Paul Walker wrote:
>Couple of questions about the info in the GT alien
>modules.
>
>Are they the same information in previous alien
>modules?
>How much does it differ from OTU?
>

They took the information from the previous GDW modules (a lot of it 
unchanged) and expanded on that.  Where non-GDW info was present it 
wasn't used (due to licensing issues) but an effort was made to avoid 
being incompatible with it.

They also add a few new minor races....

>How much will change as the OTU goes forward?

I'm not sure what "OTU" you mean.  the offical GT universe won't 
change it.  How much of the new info would a T20 or T5 supplement 
use?  I don't know.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:26:31 -0000
Subject: [TML] Here's an idea - Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <20020227134835.59255.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEEGCMAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gonzalez
> Sent: 27 February 2002 13:49
>
> Here's an idea that could have been used.
>
> Certain nobles within the moot with the best interest
> of the Imperium at heart could have a "rogue" faction
> of IRIS go out and assassinate the leaders of each
> faction. There after you could have a Moot called to
> decide on who would take the throne if at all. They
> could form a "senate" of sorts and vote in an emperor
> every few years. That would change the nature of the
> Imperium. Because if you think about it. What real
> purpose did having an emperor serve other than being a
> figurehead.

The major problem, IMHO of course, is that such an action would have simply
perpetuated the Civil War by giving yet another reason for surviving faction
members to fight on.  This is the way generations long civil wars develop,
leading to a final collapse as severe (if not more so) as the Long Night.

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
A generation which ignores history has no past - and no future.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love by Robert Heinlein.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:39:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:39:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
Message-ID: <RELAY3WrGW6Ex3Akwts00005cf9@relay3.softcomca.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> writes:

> "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
> > > You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
> >
> > Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.
>
> Upon further review, I see what you mean.  Three known points appears to
> give you two possible locations.  A fourth known point nails it down.

No, you only need 3, John.  However, this presumes that the 3 points
are unique and distinct from each other.  Allow me to demonstrate.

By definition, 3 points are coplanar.  If you see these 3 points as:

                    A                     A
                             - or -
                 B     C               C     B

you know where you are (and which side of the plane you are on.)
Now, on the other hand, if each point looks the same (that is,
if you cannot differentiate one point from another), then what
you end up seeing is:

                   x

                x     x

and then you *DO* need a 4th point to determine your position.

    - Mark C.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 21:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDMFHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3C7D53D0.50206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John-Martin wrote:

> If I had my vote, I'd say something based on a de-miled version of the
> 'culture' of the Imperial Navy.  Being the only imperium wide, popularly
> accessible institution in the Imperium as well as a major conduit for social
> advancement the IN consciously model a forcas'le version of a pidgin
> Noblesque style, with a number of the more extravagant excesses worn away.
> This is probably more prevalent in the frontier sectors then the interior.
> 

Why? The IN is hardly the only Imperium-wide popularly accessible 
institution...not by a long shot.

There are:

Megacorps, and the proliferation of popular culture based on advertising 
and pupular entertainment.

Nobility, which in many places may well be the role models, or if not, 
at least the entertainment, a' la' Britain's Royal Dysfunctional Family.

TAS, partly in it's clubbiness, partly in it's function, apparently, as 
the 'CNN' of the 3I.

IISS, a distinctly different service from the IN.

AAB, which probably sponsors all sorts of stuff throughout the Imperium 
to gain data for it's archives...

And that's just off the top of my head.

The main problem is that the original books had such a decidedly skewed 
picture of the 'Average Traveller': You were merchant marine, navy, 
marine or scout, so _everyone_ thinks that the 3I is some giant happy 
vet's playground.

It's not, but many vets see the world as either 'one of us' ('my 
brothers in arms') or 'one of them' ('all the flaccid whining civvies 
who didn't have the stones to serve'.) type of club thing.

In varying degrees of subtlety, that bias permeates both the OTU and 
many of the discussions here on the TML.

It has colored the entire history of Traveller since the beginning.

Characters serve 'Terms', 're-enlist', 'retire' to a second, civilian 
career...the career path of a professional soldier.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:48:39 EST
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
Message-ID: <9c.1bb4a659.29aebc47@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/27/02 12:45:37 PM Central Standard Time, Alan comments 
on my Fighting Sail feel I've tried to cultivate IMTU:

> Ah yes.  Rum, sodomy and the lash - the basis for any sensible interstellar
> empire.  : )
> 

   Well, _yes_, there is that wonderful quote (which I was hoping no one 
would bring up) to put the whole subject into its proper perspective :)
   I decided to pass on the entire Lash part of the quote. Seems overly 
severe to me. As far as Sodomy and Rum in the IN---Hey, whatever 2 or more 
consenting sophonts due off-duty is really none of my concern ;P
  -Ken-  




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:37:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:37:44 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20227.143744.4b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dumb question time folks ;)
>
> Assuming real life conditions...
>
> You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
> misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
> roughly speaking.
>
> Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
> answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.  
>
> Here is my thoughts on the problem...
>
> If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
> on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
> deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.

Right. But that doesn't pin down your position. See my previous post. 

Basicly, you have a triangle, with two points (the pulsars) pinned
down, and the distance and angles to the third point defined.

Take a real physical triangle, Say one of those darfting ones. Grab it
by two corners.

You can swing the third corner thru a full circle without changing the
position of the other two corners. 

And since that third corner is the location of your ship....

You are somewhere on that circle...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:50:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:50:08 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3C7D20C7.FCE33908@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20227.145008.6g7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
>> > You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
>> 
>> Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.
>
> Upon further review, I see what you mean.  Three known points appears to
> give you two possible locations.  A fourth known point nails it down.

Actually, the orientation of the three points will also tell you which
of the two locations you are at. 

Take a triangle and paint the points Red, Blue, and Green. Then look at
in from both sides. From one side the RGB order is clockwise. From the
other it is counterclockwise.

Viola, you know which side of the triangle you are on.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:05:28 PST
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020226230518.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20227.140528.8w0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hello Dan,
>   Regards to the rules, and *my* interpretation of it...
>
> The tonnage classification is based on *all* planets within the imperium
> plus neighboring planets in nearby non-Imperial systems.  For ease of play
> however, most GM's will likely only build data structures based on stars
> nearby.
>
>   At one point, I got a quick and dirty program to generate cargoes for me
> using FAR TRADER rules, but discovered that I needed to trash it and start
> fresh.  The reason?  Suppose you decide to travel from point A to point D.
> Between your final destination is points B and C.  Why not get cargo for
> those locations as well as the cargo for D?  Stop at B, earn money, maybe
> get cargo from B to go to C and D.  Stop at C, drop off cargo, maybe get
> more cargo for D.  Reach D, drop off all remaining cargo.  The Trader earns
> more money that way.  So you've got to include the cargo generation for all
> locations, not just the one (programming wise that is).

But you generate cargo based on where you are and where you are headed.
So you'd generate a cargo on A based on the fact that you are going to
D. 

You might also (if you aren't full or if it's a good deal) generate
cargo for B, and for C.

Then when you reach B and unload any cargo for there, you generate new
cargo for C & D to fill the space taken by the cargo you just dropped
off.

But as Heinlein pointed out (in one section of "Time Enough For Love")
the *real* way to make money is in the triangle trade.

Start at A, buy cargo for B. At B, sell the cargo and buy cargo for C.
At C, sell the cargo and buy cargo for A. Repeat until rich.

As I recall, molasses, rum and slaves were the cargoes in one such real
world triangle trade.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:01:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:01:49 PST
Subject: [TML] Miniatures
Message-ID: <20227.150149.2u8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Digging thru my stuff I found an odd old miniature. It's a starship,
*way* too obviously influenced by Star Wars. 

Superior Models Inc
TS-02 Constellation

It's triangular, 3.5" long, and about 2.5" wide and maybe 1/4" thick,
with 10 "fighters" that are about 3/4 long by 1/2 wide (think of a
flattened colonial Viper, but with more of a point).
It's been painted light blue with gold "landing pads for the fighters
and black lines connecting the pads. The fighters are unpainted.

Anybody interested? If so, make an offer. if nothing else, the fighters
might make nice conters for Mayday or some such.

It's in the original box, and the fighters are still in their bag.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:14:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:14:49 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <200202270728.XAA15735@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20227.141449.3n5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
>>Dumb question time folks ;)
>>
>>Assuming real life conditions...
>>
>>You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
>>misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
>>roughly speaking.
>>
>>Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
>>answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.  
>
> Well, you need three points, though they don't have to be pulsars (within
> the galaxy, one pulsar is probably enough)

Well, actually, it works like this. 

You've got one point to start with. That's you. 

Add a second point and (we assume) distance. That tells you that you
are somewhere along the surface of a sphere. The uncertainty in
distance means that you are actually somewhere in a "shell".

Add another point. That gives a second sphere. Which puts you somewhere
in a circle that is the intersection of those spheres.

Add a third point and you would ideally have pinned your position down
absolutely. In the real world, it'll rarely work out that well. But
you'll still have your position pinned down to a not too large "volume
of uncertainty".

But the above assumes you know distance as well as direction.

If you don't know distance, then when you find your first other point,
all you know is that you are somewhere on a line connecting that point
and your ship. Not much help as you don't know what *direction* that
line is. 

Sort of like knowing that London is at a bearing 234 degrees off your
bow. Unless you know which way your bow is pointing, that's not much
help. <g>

So you add a second reference star. Now, you can measure the angle
between the two stars. That gives you a rough idea of your distance,
and (in 3d space) narrows your position a bit. 

You are at the point of a trinangle with that angle, and the two stars
as the other points. You know the length of the line running between
the two stars, and the "opposite angle" to use trig-speak. That gives
you the length of the other sides as well as the angles.

Now, if you hold a triangle by two corners, you can spin it around an
axis consisting of the side connecting those corners. And the remaining
corner traces out a circle. 

You are somewhere on that circle.

In 2d space, you are at one of two points, which are where the circle
intersects the plane.

With a third point, you have a triangle, with the three stars at the
points. Add your ship and you get some sort of tetrahedron. Now, even
in 3d space your ship is in one of two positions on opposite sides of
the triangle formed by the stars. 

You can tell *which* position by the way the stars appear:

B     B
AC   CA

That tells you which *side* of the triangle you are on.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:42:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:42:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOAEGNCEAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <20227.144259.1R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I see it, in the OTU (whether it be CT, MT, TNE etc.) there should be a
> large number of navigation "landmarks". In each of these universes, people
> have been looking at space for hundreds or thousands of years with
> Hubble-like technology, noting all the weird and unique
> stars/galaxies/nebula/pulsars etc.

Anyplace outside of Dark Nebula sector, you should be able to see the
Greater and Lesser Magellanic Clouds. That's two points right there.
Add a bright but distant star with a distinctive spectrum, and you are
set.

In Dark Nebula, you'll have to find the radio sources like Sagitaruis A
(center of the galaxy, more or less) and some other strong radio
sources.  Get three points and you know where you are.

> I figure that a rather extensive database exists on dozens if not
> hundreds of these "landmarks" from all the galaxies in the skies...
> after a misjump, any ship with a telescope (standard issue I would
> think) and a working computer could get its bearings in a matter of
> hours.

Try *minutes* for a crude fix. That's why I picked the Magellanic
Clouds as the initial pair of points. They are *naked eye* visible and
give you both a directional line, and as well, give you your
"orientation" (ie which way is galactic north)

For that matter, the "milky way" gives you a crude idea of where the
plane of the galaxy is. 

> IMTU, getting lost is not an issue, getting back is the hard part =)

Oh, definitely.

>From a thread on rec.arts.sf.science years back, dealing with this sort
of thing, but with a jump drive with *much* longer range....

"First, you find the right galactic supercluster...."

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:53:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:53:29 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202271857420.9962-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20227.145329.2A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, John Groth wrote:
>> You need a third known body of some sort to fix your exact location.
>
> Actually, to get the position in 3-space, you need four points.

Only if you can't tell which of your three points is which. If you can,
their relative positions (ie clockwise or counter clockwise) tell you
your *direction* from them. 

3 points and a direction is sufficient.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:55:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:55:29 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20020227202216.D21787@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>> Assuming real life conditions...
>> 
>> You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
>> misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
>> roughly speaking.
>
> Pulsars are thought to be reasonably directional.  You might not be in
> the right direction to be swept by Pulsar A's pulse.

True, but you merely need to find several pulsars that you have on
record. The beams are narrow cones, but most pulsars are so far away
that they'll cover the entire potential misjump volume anyway.

It's "find three known pulsars", not "find three *specific* pulsars.

Same reason the Nautical Ephermeris has info for a couple of dozen
stars and all the planets. You may not be able to see all of them, but
you'll be able to see *enough* of them.

> Nope, all this gives you is a surface of constant angular separation,
> e.g. a sphere.

Nope. A circle.

> I'm afraid so.  Without observations of any other object or distances
> to A or B, all you know is the angular separation between A and B.  In
> 2D, this means that you lie somewhere on a circular arc of known
> radius through A and B. 

You also know the length of the line connecting A & B. That plus the
angle defines a triangle as I recall?

Assuming the ship is at A, you know line BC, and angle A. 

But I could be wrong.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:16:00 +1300
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <20020227140743.89525.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F1005E4V2BL8wbH2zlk00009b93@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C7E1F80.20873.7AC8FF@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 6:07, Gerry Harris wrote:

> 
> --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> <<Sure rebuilding interstellar civilization ala TNE is a "noble" cause
> for any campaign, but setting that campaign in an interstellar abattoir
> is simply too much.>>
> 
> The show "Andromeda" uses the same plot device (rebuilding
> civilization) without falling back on slaughtering trillions of
> innocents to reach their "Long Night."

Are you sure that billions or even trillions didn't die in the fall of 
such a huge civilisation?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:17:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:17:09 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
In-Reply-To: <F145Dwi3xXDUUQcWf0L00009ebd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C7E1FC5.31646.7BD5FC@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 14:08, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      I see.  None of the factions, who slaughtered billions, deserved to
>      
> either "win" or continue to exist, so Mr. Nilsen slaughtered trillions
> to prevent any chance of their "victory" and/or survival.
>      That makes all sorts of sense, doesn't it?

Yep.

>      Virus and the Interstellar Abattoir are nothing more than a
>      systemic 
> punctuation mark.  They were a metagame concept that allowed TNE's
> creators to sweep away the OTU and give their concept a fresh field in
> which to grow. 
>   Virus is a goofy a plot device as DGP's oh-so-carefully balanced
>   factions 
> in the "Rebellion-That-Would-Not-Die."

Yep. Which is why sweeping them all away didn't bother me much.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:26:44 +1100
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane>

David P. Summers wrote:
> A lot of culture is spread by American corporations, but ironically
> they don't do it with that aim.  They are really trying to sell stuff
> and if they could make as much money selling stuff based on French
> culture (or whatever) they would do it in a heartbeat.  (Similarly,
> the use government supports lower barriers to, for example, Amercian
> movies but that is because they support selling American goods).

AFAICT, the corporations responsible for disseminating most of what we think
of as "Global Culture" aren't really as interested in selling products any
more.  It's an odd situation, but basically, since so many large
corporations have seriously purged their manufacturing bases and chosen the
far cheaper avenue of subcontracting, the focus has shifted to pure
marketing.  Big companies like Nike, Gap and Coca-cola are now more into the
business of selling culture than selling clothes and soft drinks.
Corporations of today are trying to create global brand recognition, and
they do it by associating their brand name with a culture and lifestyle all
of its own (so, for example people might associate Coke with "fun and
friendship").  IMTU, this trend has continued.

Picture this kind of business philosophy extended over many generations -
corporations with literally centuries (millenia?) of tradition and history
behind them.  And in the TU, these corporations aren't merely global,
they're interstellar.  What you end up with is business organizations which
have become ancient institutions, with their own philosophies, values and
aesthetics.  Think organized religion, but just substitute some words:
"dogma" becomes "policy"; "evangelism" becomes "marketing"; "faith" becomes
"consumer loyalty"...

I'm positive this subject has been treated before in some sci-fi work or
other.  Sadly, I'm not very well-read, so I don't know exactly where.  Maybe
someone on the list can set me straight.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet ---
"You're not the first to think
that everything has been thought before."
        - Something for Kate
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:53:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:53:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] 2nd GT Far Trader Q [math]
Message-ID: <3C7D7189.C13B86BD@mail.cswnet.com>

>> Ok. I wanna be sure I've got the right formula for this BTN thing.
>> 
>> Arba wtn: 2.5 + Lunion wtn: 5.5 + wtcm: .5 - range mod: -1 =7.5
>> So, did I get it right?

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you missed the cap of (lower WTN *2 +1) which leaves you at 6.0

I thought the cap was lower WTN + 5 [from pg 15, GT FT].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:56:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Miniatures
Message-ID: <20020227.155626.-115167.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:01:49 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
> Digging thru my stuff I found an odd old miniature. It's a starship,
> *way* too obviously influenced by Star Wars. 
> 
> Anybody interested? If so, make an offer. 

Do you accept Quatluu's, Credits, or gold pressed Latinum?

Turokan



The Borg
"You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them, the
essence of what they are remains... they regenerate and keep coming.
Eventually, you'll weaken. Your reserves will be gone. They are
relentless." - Q, Stardate 42761.3

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:00:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:00:58 PST
Subject: [TML] Not Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <20020227162839.MAXI277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20227.160058.5w6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Haven't read 'Bug Jack Baron'.

It says some stuff about media and about prejudice, greed and power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:22:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:22:11 PST
Subject: [TML] Let's aviod a flamewar
In-Reply-To: <3C7C888A.9EE3BA45@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20227.152211.5D6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> I could still attempt to write a program to do brute force integration.
>> That is, treat the solid as a stack of thin cylinders and sum their
>> volume. Ugly, but doable.
>
> I think if you picked up a textbook you could probably figure it out.
> Calculus, while daunting, isn't harder than anything else. You could
> certainly pick it up Leonard.

Probably. But it'd be a hell of a lot easier with an instructor to help
wityh questions!

> ObTrav: Making the players plot their own damn transfer orbits. ;)

That's one of the reasons I keep meaning to learn calc. The damned
"elliptic integrals" for figuring orbital motion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 23:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:38:10 PST
Subject: [TML] Fun quote
In-Reply-To: <20020227.083037.-199695.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20227.153810.5z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Taken from RPG Net (specifically
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/contract26feb02.html), in an
> article regarding meta-plots in RPGs:
>
> "A nod must be made to Traveller players, who possess a fanaticism about
> what is canon met only by certain Syrian clerics during the great
> Christological debates or some of the most fanatical members of the Great
> Books lobby, who think that a text needs to age like a fine wine and who
> don't want the children of the world looking at any words that postdate
> the Gilded Age. I'm surprised there aren't players following Marc Miller
> around in the attempt to compose the T-hadith. Just in case." 

That's only because we know he isn't doing traveller stuff *all* the
time. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:10:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:26 -0700
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]> <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C7D7572.3010100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Shane Slamet wrote:
> David P. Summers wrote:
> 
>>A lot of culture is spread by American corporations, but ironically
>>they don't do it with that aim.  They are really trying to sell stuff
>>and if they could make as much money selling stuff based on French
>>culture (or whatever) they would do it in a heartbeat.  (Similarly,
>>the use government supports lower barriers to, for example, Amercian
>>movies but that is because they support selling American goods).
>>
> 
> AFAICT, the corporations responsible for disseminating most of what we think
> of as "Global Culture" aren't really as interested in selling products any
> more.  It's an odd situation, but basically, since so many large
> corporations have seriously purged their manufacturing bases and chosen the
> far cheaper avenue of subcontracting, the focus has shifted to pure
> marketing.  Big companies like Nike, Gap and Coca-cola are now more into the
> business of selling culture than selling clothes and soft drinks.
> Corporations of today are trying to create global brand recognition, and
> they do it by associating their brand name with a culture and lifestyle all
> of its own (so, for example people might associate Coke with "fun and
> friendship").  IMTU, this trend has continued.

Hardly! Their advertising may well aim for the 'brand recognition' 
model, but you could bet for damn sure that if Coke's sales went down 
their ad agency would be sacked, and one that could get the sales 
numbers up would be in it's place.

Coke makes their money by selling carbonated sugar water.

They _make_ that sugar water all over the place, but if your thesis were 
true, they could stop making it, saving a bundle of cash (Coca-Cola is 
one of the largest worldwide comsumers of sugar) and slide in on pure 
profit derived from, umm, err, happy customers buying , umm, 
err...Dammit! This sounded so good when the sock puppet told me the 
business plan!

Yeah...we'll buy 50lb bags of dog food over the net!

Even if they are simply raking in the licensing fees from 
subcontractors, the purchase of the end product is still the font of all 
profit.





-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:18:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:18:17 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3C7C4A28.1C3CD957@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1bfed$6be94a90$0f01a8c0@terry>

> I think that, following GT Far Trader by the book, that its B), but
I'm
> looking for some clarification on it.

About a year or more ago, I had a long email chat with Jim MacLean and
Anthony Jackson and added some clarification to the rules as stated in
Far Trader with what Jim indicated was his errata. Check out the link
below for that.

http://home.houston.rr.com/tmixon/Trade/trade.txt

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:34:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:34:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hard Times - some thoughts
References: <F136FR0rmTIVvLVKi3s000005f2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE52tu6krmDInPYPyjy0001a648@hotmail.com>



>      But we already had.  The Rebellion had already destroyed the
Imperium,
> destroying everything else was unnecessary.  If the creation of Virus was
> supposedly meant to ensure that none of the Rebellion's factions "won",
then
> why did Virus also destroy the Heirate, the 2000 Worlds, the Extents, the
> Federation, and a host of other polities that had nothing to do with the
> Rebellion?
>      Virus was little more than a mechanism to wipe the OTU clean.  As TNE
> reintroduced each bit of Traveller, the Hivers here, the Ithklur there,
and
> the Kanon Kops screamed about any lapses in continuity, TNE's creators
could
> simply say "Oh, that was before Virus, things are different now."  Virus
was
> an excuse, a get-out-jail-free card.

It is amusing that you have chosen a monopoly analogy, because it carries
over well to a TNE without Virus.  As long as the Rebellion was around, you
were playing on a square board.  No matter how many spaces are in between in
the Rebellion, indertiminate length Short Dusk, and some kind of
reformation, the initial assumption is that you will end up at Go.  Yes, it
is true that Virus (and its rather poor implimentation) allowed for many
ancillary injuries to the Traveller universe.  Could TNE have been done
better?  Certainly.

On the question that Hardtimes (or, more properly, a continued descent based
on Hardtimes) would have produced an apocolypse setting, I must disagree.
The fall of the Romans, though in some ways tragic and certainly very
destructive, is much different than the nuclear winter of the cold war.

Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:38:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
Message-ID: <20020227.163805.-115167.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:05:28 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
> In mail you write:
<snipage of fine trade discussion>
 
> But you generate cargo based on where you are and where you are 
> headed.

I agree with Shadow on all points, and just want to comment. 

> Start at A, buy cargo for B. At B, sell the cargo and buy cargo for 
> C. At C, sell the cargo and buy cargo for A. Repeat until rich.

In MTU I only had one list of trade goods written for each system, the
available lots on the source world. Its simple enough to say they're for
B, C, or D. (a GM call). You could negotiate further if somethings for D
because the source world may really, really, really want to get rid of
it. Perhaps it was confiscated officially, anyway, you could work out a
deal which might be profitable, even though you lost x tonnage space for
B and C.

Step two does stipulate in my MT books "The ship captain must select and
designate a destination world within jump range." This to me could change
the above if D was beyond jump range from A. Or, you could work on a
bigger discount to haul it away.


Turokan


The Borg
"You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them, the
essence of what they are remains... they regenerate and keep coming.
Eventually, you'll weaken. Your reserves will be gone. They are
relentless." - Q, Stardate 42761.3

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 00:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:03:04 PST
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202271227520.23894-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20227.160304.5U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> ML is out of the question, as I'd need a 6510 disassembler, a C64 BIOS
>> source listing and index *and* knowledge of 6510 assembler.
>
>  <bad lag today> Don't feel bad. There is a new accelerator/processor for
> us now. I haven't even finished some lesson books in Basic on the older
> system. Let alone stock ML. Though it is good to play Traveller and deal
> in hexidecimel ML work <BG. Or so I have been told.

Well, there's a big difference between ML and assemly code.

ML is stuff like:

E8 32 47 E8 4F 47 BC 17  B2 B8 00 00 50 E8 50 25

Assembler is stuff like:

298A:0100 E83247        CALL    4835
298A:0103 E84F47        CALL    4855
298A:0106 BC17B2        MOV     SP,B217
298A:0109 B80000        MOV     AX,0000
298A:010C 50            PUSH    AX
298A:010D E85025        CALL    2660

Both are the first 16 bytes of the editor I'm using right now. <g>

>> No idea what "Blitz'ed" means. I assume it's some sort of encoding to
>> make it hard to get the source?
>
>  Blitz AFAIK was a semi commercial prg used by programmers. It not only
> made it hard to enter a Basic prg with the normal list command it also did
> some sort of compression. In my stack of stuff I have it and some file to
> break it. I also have a crew freind that is still in the C= field. That
> may be able to help me break the files into a basic listing.

That would make translation *possible*.

>> As I said elsewgere, a "PETSCII" listing of the BASIC program might be
>> usable. Nothing else would be.
>
>  If I can break them open to a listing in Basic. I can make a file of
> that, but it would have to be sent in PET. Rather than ascii. As the codes
> won't show right if I don't. Can you read them online, or would snail mail
> be better in a print out?

print them to a file, and zip them up. I can unzip them and view them
with program that won't get upset about the odd characters. I even have
an editor that will let me edit *binary* files, so they won't be a
problem that way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:06:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:06:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
Message-ID: <fuvq7u4vaku5rq0f0f96b8bkgm3ac9tmv9@4ax.com>

Not all that long ago, I posted a query as to whether people would be
interested in resuming scheduled chats on Undernet's registered #traveller
channel.  I got _one_ response via mail, saying that it would be nice, but
if it happens, some accommodation - perhaps alternate times - should be
made for the Europeans and possibly the Australians as well.  OK, it's
worth thinking about - IF I get enough response to make the project worth
thinking about at all.

A few nights ago, I was brainstorming with a few of the channel regulars on
the subject of possible chat topics.  This is the list that we came up
with:

 * The Alien In Traveller: What makes a good alien race for Traveller, how
   do you 'port' aliens from non-Traveller/non-RPG literature, maybe a
   'workshop' in doing so.

 * Traveller in Low-Tech: How you can divest your players of their
   high-tech items, and how you can confound your referee by _using_ what
   you know about Low-Tech.

 * Starship Design for newbies - workshop, both Quick-and-Easy and Detailed
   systems, philosophy behind the systems, designing the _right_ ship.

 * Running a 'tramp trader' - day-to-day operations, making payments,
   making the money to make the payments, maintenance, etc.

 * Starship Design Philosophy and Fine Points

 * Striker Design Philosophy and Fine Points

 * The Structure of an Adventure - elements of playable stories, managing
   the unmanageable (players).

Chat format would be a 'guest speaker' if someone had a topic that they
wanted to expound upon as 'resident expert'; or a general 'open floor'
discussion otherwise.

So, I ask again: Is there any interest?  If so, how often, and _when_?

I'll read responses here, or via email at freelancetraveller@yahoo.com.

Yes, if any chat works well, I intend to preserve it, and possibly put it
up at Freelance Traveller (subject to participants' permission).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:07:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:37:16 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
In-Reply-To: <p04330111b8a2f80dbcd9@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202281132130.12780-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi David:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, David P. Summers wrote:

> Well, I assume that either nobody asked Marc if they could take the
> CT ruleset and use it to publish at line of books (or they did and he
> said no).  Generally, those who have wanted to publish a line have
> either sought to "update" the CT rule system (T4 and presumably "T5")
> or use a new rule system with the setting (GT and T20).

 I'd be interested in hearing if anyone wanted to expand the existing CT
material in say Aliens and adventures and what Marc may have thought of
the idea. I've been into and out of CT since about 79. Never moved into
any other form. Though I am collecting T-4 material.

> BITS writes things designed to work the lines that other people are
> publishing.  It is set up to work with different versions at once
> (CT, MT, T4, and GT).  Similarly, stuff from GURPS Traveller is set
> in a period that is very similar to CT (just roll be the clock a few
> years) and can be applied to a CT game.  Of course these are all
> background material.  As to new rule for CT, I think most people who
> want to stick with CT do so because it is simple and don't seek to
> add too many new rules...

 No I wasn't thinkoing of new rules. Just new adventures and ALien things,
perhaps some ship books that expand the exisiting concepts. I must check
out this BITs place you mentioned. IIRC I bookmarked it a while ago. Have
to see it it is there, been trying to contact some one called BITDUDE
about Traveller C= files.

 Oh and regarding your sig. Got you beat. Your Calif/Boston one. Well my
Email is in Australia but I am in Oregon USA. <BG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:06:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:06:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
Message-ID: <fuvq7u4vaku5rq0f0f96b8bkgm3ac9tmv9@4ax.com>

Not all that long ago, I posted a query as to whether people would be
interested in resuming scheduled chats on Undernet's registered #traveller
channel.  I got _one_ response via mail, saying that it would be nice, but
if it happens, some accommodation - perhaps alternate times - should be
made for the Europeans and possibly the Australians as well.  OK, it's
worth thinking about - IF I get enough response to make the project worth
thinking about at all.

A few nights ago, I was brainstorming with a few of the channel regulars on
the subject of possible chat topics.  This is the list that we came up
with:

 * The Alien In Traveller: What makes a good alien race for Traveller, how
   do you 'port' aliens from non-Traveller/non-RPG literature, maybe a
   'workshop' in doing so.

 * Traveller in Low-Tech: How you can divest your players of their
   high-tech items, and how you can confound your referee by _using_ what
   you know about Low-Tech.

 * Starship Design for newbies - workshop, both Quick-and-Easy and Detailed
   systems, philosophy behind the systems, designing the _right_ ship.

 * Running a 'tramp trader' - day-to-day operations, making payments,
   making the money to make the payments, maintenance, etc.

 * Starship Design Philosophy and Fine Points

 * Striker Design Philosophy and Fine Points

 * The Structure of an Adventure - elements of playable stories, managing
   the unmanageable (players).

Chat format would be a 'guest speaker' if someone had a topic that they
wanted to expound upon as 'resident expert'; or a general 'open floor'
discussion otherwise.

So, I ask again: Is there any interest?  If so, how often, and _when_?

I'll read responses here, or via email at freelancetraveller@yahoo.com.

Yes, if any chat works well, I intend to preserve it, and possibly put it
up at Freelance Traveller (subject to participants' permission).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:20:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:20:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]> <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane> <3C7D7572.3010100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <008a01c1bff6$2d1f4a90$9307b286@Shane>

Bruce Johnson maintains:
> Even if they are simply raking in the licensing fees from
> subcontractors, the purchase of the end product is still the font of all
> profit.

Perhaps Coke wasn't the best example.   What I'm talking about is
'manufacturing' being a concept that fell out of fashion in the business
world a while back, particularly after the sale of Kraft to tobacco giant
Phillip-Morris in the early 90s.  I don't have the figures on me, but as I
understand it, Kraft was purchased for a *lot* more than the net worth of
its assets.  Why?  Because Kraft was a globally recognized name.  The idea
is that a brand name is practically the only thing that distinguishes one
mass-manufactured product from another.  Hence, such a name is worth
enormous quantities of cash in its own right.  So, for example, this pair of
cheaply manufactured running shoes is superior to (and 3 times the price of)
that pair of cheaply manufactured running shoes, because it has a "swoosh"
Nike logo stitched onto it.

My thesis is not that companies don't make money from manufacturing and
selling products.  It is that a corporation can make money without having to
directly do either of those things.  The focus has shifted away from making
stuff, and towards pure marketing - building a cultural institution around a
name.  And I think that's an interesting concept to expand on and explore in
Traveller.  YMMV.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Branded in a Painful Place
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:07:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:37:16 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas [long]
In-Reply-To: <p04330111b8a2f80dbcd9@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202281132130.12780-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi David:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, David P. Summers wrote:

> Well, I assume that either nobody asked Marc if they could take the
> CT ruleset and use it to publish at line of books (or they did and he
> said no).  Generally, those who have wanted to publish a line have
> either sought to "update" the CT rule system (T4 and presumably "T5")
> or use a new rule system with the setting (GT and T20).

 I'd be interested in hearing if anyone wanted to expand the existing CT
material in say Aliens and adventures and what Marc may have thought of
the idea. I've been into and out of CT since about 79. Never moved into
any other form. Though I am collecting T-4 material.

> BITS writes things designed to work the lines that other people are
> publishing.  It is set up to work with different versions at once
> (CT, MT, T4, and GT).  Similarly, stuff from GURPS Traveller is set
> in a period that is very similar to CT (just roll be the clock a few
> years) and can be applied to a CT game.  Of course these are all
> background material.  As to new rule for CT, I think most people who
> want to stick with CT do so because it is simple and don't seek to
> add too many new rules...

 No I wasn't thinkoing of new rules. Just new adventures and ALien things,
perhaps some ship books that expand the exisiting concepts. I must check
out this BITs place you mentioned. IIRC I bookmarked it a while ago. Have
to see it it is there, been trying to contact some one called BITDUDE
about Traveller C= files.

 Oh and regarding your sig. Got you beat. Your Calif/Boston one. Well my
Email is in Australia but I am in Oregon USA. <BG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:38:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:38:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <20020227.163805.-115167.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020227203838.00e22070@buffnet.net>

As a clarification...

The program I wrote generated cargo for one world based on current location
and final destination.  The point I was making was that if you had 3 stops
along the way, a wise captain would pick up cargo for those points along
the way in addition to the cargo he was picking up for his final destination.

I should have stated that it was the "freight" being generated, not the
speculative cargo being generated.  I've not gotten that far yet in the
coding ;)

For now, I'm dabbling in working on First In so I can generate reasonable
stellar systems.  As any "hobby programmer" working on this stuff, I'm
working on it in fits and spurts...

         Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:48:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]>
 <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <p0433011bb8a33c80cfd5@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:26 AM +1100 2/28/02, Shane Slamet wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  A lot of culture is spread by American corporations, but ironically
>>  they don't do it with that aim.  They are really trying to sell stuff
>>  and if they could make as much money selling stuff based on French
>>  culture (or whatever) they would do it in a heartbeat.  (Similarly,
>>  the use government supports lower barriers to, for example, Amercian
>>  movies but that is because they support selling American goods).
>
>AFAICT, the corporations responsible for disseminating most of what we think
>of as "Global Culture" aren't really as interested in selling products any
>more.  It's an odd situation, but basically, since so many large
>corporations have seriously purged their manufacturing bases and chosen the
>far cheaper avenue of subcontracting, the focus has shifted to pure
>marketing.  Big companies like Nike, Gap and Coca-cola are now more into the
>business of selling culture than selling clothes and soft drinks.
>Corporations of today are trying to create global brand recognition, and
>they do it by associating their brand name with a culture and lifestyle all
>of its own (so, for example people might associate Coke with "fun and
>friendship").  IMTU, this trend has continued.

I won't get into all this "what do corporations really sell" debate. 
The point is, either way, the culture is just part of what they are 
selling to make money.  Its not and end in itself.  And if Coca-cola 
decided it could make more money selling whatever native equivalent 
for soda exists in France, then they would do it in a hearbeat.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:57:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <200202272303.g1RN3ltV015392@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020227174902.00add008@mail.peak.org>

At 13:39:14 PST, 2/27/2002, I <markc@peak.org> wrote:

>By definition, 3 points are coplanar.  If you see these 3 points as:
>
>                     A                     A
>                              - or -
>                  B     C               C     B
>
>you know where you are (and which side of the plane you are on.)

and at 14:14:49 PST, 2/27/2002,
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:

>You can tell *which* position by the way the stars appear:
>
>B     B
>AC   CA
>
>That tells you which *side* of the triangle you are on.

Ha!!  Beat you by 35 minutes and 35 seconds, Leonard! :^)


         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 02:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:38:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330112b8a2fa1f397d@[143.232.119.186]> <004c01c1bfe6$38099560$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C7D980A.288CD634@premier.net>



Shane Slamet wrote:
> 

<<snip>>
> 
> Picture this kind of business philosophy extended over many generations -
> corporations with literally centuries (millenia?) of tradition and history
> behind them.  And in the TU, these corporations aren't merely global,
> they're interstellar.  What you end up with is business organizations which
> have become ancient institutions, with their own philosophies, values and
> aesthetics.  Think organized religion, but just substitute some words:
> "dogma" becomes "policy"; "evangelism" becomes "marketing"; "faith" becomes
> "consumer loyalty"...
> 
> I'm positive this subject has been treated before in some sci-fi work or
> other.  Sadly, I'm not very well-read, so I don't know exactly where.  Maybe
> someone on the list can set me straight.

Well, there's always Fred Pohl's _The Space Merchants_ and _The
Merchant's War_.  A rather satirical look at a society _openly_ ruled by
corporate culture.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 04:03:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:03:30 -0600
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
In-Reply-To: <fuvq7u4vaku5rq0f0f96b8bkgm3ac9tmv9@4ax.com>
References: <fuvq7u4vaku5rq0f0f96b8bkgm3ac9tmv9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <abar7ug4j78ndajqpkutfietiqjjkd7t1n@4ax.com>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:06:21 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
<jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:

>Not all that long ago, I posted a query as to whether people would be
>interested in resuming scheduled chats on Undernet's registered #traveller
>channel.  I got _one_ response via mail, saying that it would be nice, but
>if it happens, some accommodation - perhaps alternate times - should be
>made for the Europeans and possibly the Australians as well.  OK, it's
>worth thinking about - IF I get enough response to make the project worth
>thinking about at all.
>
><SNIP>
> * The Alien In Traveller: <SNIP>
>
> * Traveller in Low-Tech: <SNIP>
>
> * Starship Design for newbies <SNIP>
>
> * Running a 'tramp trader' <SNIP>
>
> * Starship Design Philosophy and Fine Points
>
> * Striker Design Philosophy and Fine Points
>
> * The Structure of an Adventure <SNIP>
>
><SNIP>

With those topics, I would certainly find such a chat of interest.
Modify that by my need to do some hacking (IDENT isn't reaching inside
the NAT software) in order to make it possible for me to participate
and we still arrive at a coin-flip result and the reason I didn't
respond to the earlier posting.

In all my years online, I've been very ambivalent about chat
discussions.  I'll admit that I have developed a real fondness for the
discontinuous conversations that appear on the TML and Usenet.
Perhaps it is because senders have more time to frame their posts for
those non-real-time venues, but I've found that the structure of IRC
tends not to produce as deep a discussion of a topic as I like to
follow.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 05:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:05:49 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20227.143744.4b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020226234656.00e2d3c0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020227225656.0438ec80@rollanet.org>

At 04:37 PM 2/27/02, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > Dumb question time folks ;)
> >
> > Assuming real life conditions...
> >
> > You know the position of pulsar A, and you know position of Pulsar B.  Ship
> > misjumps to a position where the navigator has to find out where he is
> > roughly speaking.
> >
> > Are two Pulsars enough?  On another list, I've tried to get a definitive
> > answer because it has been stated that three or more are needed.
> >
> > Here is my thoughts on the problem...
> >
> > If you know the 3D co-ordinates of both pulsars, and you can get a bearing
> > on both pulsars without knowing the actual distance to them - you can
> > deduce the distance of where you are from both pulsars.
>
>Right. But that doesn't pin down your position. See my previous post.
>
>Basicly, you have a triangle, with two points (the pulsars) pinned
>down, and the distance and angles to the third point defined.
>
>Take a real physical triangle, Say one of those darfting ones. Grab it
>by two corners.
>
>You can swing the third corner thru a full circle without changing the
>position of the other two corners.
>
>And since that third corner is the location of your ship....
>
>You are somewhere on that circle...

Don't pulsars rotate? Once you have identified the pulsars, you will have 2 
points (the pulsars), 2 lines (the pulsars' axis of rotation), and 2 planes 
( the equatorial plane perpendicular to the axis of rotation). Since you 
have the angular separation between the 2 pulsars, wouldn't there be only 2 
possible points on the circle where you could be?



>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 06:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <200202272303.g1RN3ltV015392@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>

The real life astrogation thread led me to wondering.  What is the
currently popular idea about the size of our universe?  (Measured in light
years or parsecs.)  Anyone know?  I actually intend to use this information
in devious ways as part of MTU.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 07:21:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:21:35 +1100
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020227202216.D21787@freeman.little-possums.net> <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020228182135.A25480@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> True, but you merely need to find several pulsars that you have on
> record. The beams are narrow cones, but most pulsars are so far away
> that they'll cover the entire potential misjump volume anyway.
> 
> It's "find three known pulsars", not "find three *specific* pulsars.

Yep, that's one reason why I called it a "toy" problem.  In a real
situation you'd have so much extra information that it's not funny.


> > Nope, all this gives you is a surface of constant angular
> > separation, e.g. a sphere.
> 
> Nope. A circle.

In 2D, it is an arc of a circle, but in 3D it is a type of degenerate
toroidal surface generated by sweeping out the 2D circle around the
line joining A and B.

Given two fixed points A and B on a circle in 2D, any point C on the
circumference 'sees' the same angular separation between A and B (or
pi minus the angle).  The simplest example is the well-known result
that if A and B are endpoints of a diameter of the circle, the
triangle formed by ABC is right-angled at C.

This extends to 3D by rotation about AB.  Suppose A and B are
diametrically opposite points of a sphere.  If C is any other point on
the sphere, then the angle between AC and BC is pi/2 (and vice versa).


> You also know the length of the line connecting A & B. That plus the
> angle defines a triangle as I recall?

*Two* lengths and an angle define a triangle; or one length and two
angles.  In this case, it was supposed that we only knew one angle
(visual separation of pulsars) and one length (absolute distance
between the pulsars).  For some reason, we weren't able to determine
the distance to either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 07:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:33:27 +1100
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
References: <200202272303.g1RN3ltV015392@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020228183327.B25480@freeman.little-possums.net>

Laning wrote:
> The real life astrogation thread led me to wondering.  What is the
> currently popular idea about the size of our universe?

Probably infinite, since the current evidence is for an open
cosmological model (with or without a positive cosmological constant).

The most distant observable objects are thought to be about 4x10^9
parsecs distance.  Or, in Traveller terms, about 13 million years at
jump-6.


> I actually intend to use this information in devious ways as part of
> MTU.

Hmm.  A _really_bad_ misjump perhaps?  ;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 08:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:18:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <000801c1c030$8cc2e2b0$2f7de40c@loki>

...size of our universe?  

Infinite...


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 08:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:43:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #195
Message-ID: <7a.22fd4e15.29af4796@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/28/2002 1:34:28 AM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> The real life astrogation thread led me to wondering.  What is the
> currently popular idea about the size of our universe?  (Measured in light
> years or parsecs.)  Anyone know?  I actually intend to use this information
> in devious ways as part of MTU.
> 

I would say it's unmeasurable, i mean sure there is a number out there 
somewhere but i think that the numbers are so uncountable that it is beyond 
what we can grasp.  Billions upon billions of galaxies. 

This brings up another topic though perhaps slightly off topic for the scale 
of the game, but i am sitting here watching a video of Hyperspace it was a 
awsome documentry which aired on TLC and was hosted by Sam Neil.  I highly 
suggest everyone watch this if they get a chance, it very interesting.


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 09:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:03:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20020228182135.A25480@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <20020227202216.D21787@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020228040314.00e18d88@buffnet.net>

Hello Tim and others...

>*Two* lengths and an angle define a triangle; or one length and two
>angles.  In this case, it was supposed that we only knew one angle
>(visual separation of pulsars) and one length (absolute distance
>between the pulsars).  For some reason, we weren't able to determine
>the distance to either.

The idea here is that the navigator (or someone with some math background)
discovers he's misjumped, and doesn't know where he's at...  Unless the
navigator can jump precisely X distance to get a larger than 1 AU baseline
for paralax method of getting distances, I didn't think he could determine
the distance to a pulsar with just a bearing.  Can he?

     Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 09:30:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:30:49 +1100
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020228040314.00e18d88@buffnet.net>
References: <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020227202216.D21787@freeman.little-possums.net> <20227.145529.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020228182135.A25480@freeman.little-possums.net> <3.0.1.32.20020228040314.00e18d88@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020228203049.A25837@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Unless the navigator can jump precisely X distance to get a larger
> than 1 AU baseline for paralax method of getting distances, I didn't
> think he could determine the distance to a pulsar with just a
> bearing.  Can he?

Well he's probably got (in addition to a bearing): doppler
measurements, pulse period, signal strength (and its profile of
variation with time), and probably a whole bunch of other stuff
relating to the pulsar.

Theoretically, the period and doppler measurements alone for a
well-known pulsar might suffice to determine distance.  You see,
pulsars slow down with time.  If the relative velocity could be
determined accurately, then the observed pulse period can be corrected
for relative motion.  Then you could use the corrected period to
determine when the signals were emitted based on the known decline in
pulse frequency for the pulsar.  If you know *when* you are (to within
a year or so), then you can use this to determine how long the signal
has been travelling through space and hence how far you are from the
pulsar.

In practice, there are other complications.  But then, in practice
you'd have *heaps* more data than the observations of just one pulsar
and wouldn't be doing such a convoluted derivation in the first place.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 01:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:05:29 -0000
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <20.24808c5b.29ad540e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1c03b$a0cbd180$2000a8c0@imogen>

Rod Basler wrote:
> What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?

My take, based on Grand Census/WBH/etc, is that every major world
has  its  own  diverse  culture  ...  and  often  more  than  one
(especially on balkanised or preveously balkanised  worlds).  But
in addition to this is a 'spacer' culture, which I describe as:

- Low class spacer culture (typical of your free traders) is like
  long-distance truckers.  An individualistic  nomadic  existance
  just two steps ahead of your creditors  type  lifestyle.  Think
  of a fusion of the canteena  in  Star Wars IV,  Space Truckers,
  and every US trucker or truck-stop movie around.

- Middle class  spacer  culture  is  like  that  seen  in  modern
  international airports (business class).  This is the  bulk  of
  your high passage users.  If you've not  flown  business  class
  you've probably seen various business class flight  adverts  on
  TV.  Conservative, expecting  a  high  degree  of  service  and
  reliability, generic  (anonamous)  western  culture.  No  gaudy
  tourists.

- High class spacer culture is a mix of  70's  style  jet-setting
  playboy types and euro-trash petty  nobles.  Rich,  gaudy,  and
  often arrogant.  This does *not* include Imperial high nobles.

Regardless of the local  language(s),  within  the  starport  and
aboard  ship  everyone  uses   Galanglic   (which   is   strictly
standardised to  avoid  legal  misunderstandings).  When  dealing
with the planet beyond the starport a merchant usually needs  the
services of a broker, or can pick one  of  the  trade/translation
bots from 101 Robots.

Startowns will be like modern city centers that  have  a  lot  of
tourists ... most of the shops and restaurants know that most  of
their customers will be offworlders and  adjust  accordingly  (or
push touristy tat like the ubiquitous "I went to Lousy and all  I
go was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt).

How much this default Imperial culture will influence  the  local
culture will depend on a number of factors.  First there  is  the
local culture's 'tolerance' rating ...

- 'Xenophilic' = Imperial and local culture fusion

- 'Friendly' =  tourist-friendly  shopping,  wide-scale  Imperial
  culture entertainment media penetration, etc

- 'Aloof' = locals indifferent to Imperial culture,  even  mildly
  distainful of it.  Culural arrogance.

- 'Xenophobic' = locals hostile to Imperial culture (ranging from
  strong distain and dislike to ouright paranoia) ...  this  does
  not necessarily mean separatist, locals might  want  the  trade
  advantages of Imperial membership but resent the  "interference
  in local affairs" that they think goes with it.

In any case this will decrease with distance  from  the  starport
... but the greater the  TL  the  slower  the  decrease.  (eg.  A
xenophilic world will 'welcome' Imperial culture, but if  low  TL
then most of the population will be largely ignorant of it.)

IMTU  for  a  little  exotic   colour   (and   to   superficially
de-westernise Imperial culture) I tend to  add  a  sprinkling  of
Russian and east European character names for those who come from
noble and/or spacer families (a good source is the cast and  crew
of foreign films and European  porn  flicks).  For  the  Imperial
Navy I add a few Roman flourishes (like the salute, etc).

As for the Spinward Marches specifically, there is less decadence
and big-business corruption than in Core or  Solomani  Rim,  many
corporations are  younger  and  smaller,  there's  the  cold  war
backdrop of the Zhodani, a greater fear of pirates, and  a  sense
of standing on the edge of he unknown.  In  other  words  greater
idealism and sense of adventure.

Hope that gives some ideas.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <002101c1bfa0$e1b20f20$085d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3C7EC765.22875.670EFBA@localhost>

On 28 Feb 2002, at 1:09, Alan Bradley wrote:

> > From: RBasler1@aol.com
> > What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?
> 
> Gvegh Vargr.  Red meat and copious quantities of beer.

Crouching Vargr, hidden Aslan? <duck and cover>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question (part II)
In-Reply-To: <3C7BB374.3080505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7EC765.12408.670EFB0@localhost>

On 26 Feb 2002, at 9:10, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> > Frank, the majority of *all* programmers UI design skills leave a lot 
> > to be desired (says Andrew who is redesigning some truely 
> > shocking UI at the moment: imagine two *totally* unrelated data 
> > streams being displayed in the same text box without scroll bars, 
> > starting in the middle and going both ways at once).

> OW! My EYES!! I've seen bad UI's, but that's going way out of the way to 
> be bad. That's MST3K bad!

You should see the code required to actually make it work like 
that, not a trivial task. I am just left asking myself "Why?".

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:57:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:57:16 +1300
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDMFHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <20.24808c5b.29ad540e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7ED1EC.4399.3F411B@localhost>

On 27 Feb 2002 at 12:18, John-Martin wrote:

> Regarding the food, there undoubtly a Chinese restaurant serving
> 'something that taste's like chicken' chow mien, with too high a
> proportion of whatever is cheapest.  Generically I would suspect it's
> vat grown and boasts a lively name like BEF-1238-gndAlge19, and they
> stick you with anlagen to prevent allergies during boot camp.  The
> cultural and intestinal fauna issue of procuring fresh don't bear
> thinking about.

That's easy - flush everyone out and supply them with a new set of 
Imperial Army Issue Standard Flora. Do this at the same time you 
provide them with new no-caries oral flora, a more benign set of skin 
flora, etc. What's more all of these would be designed to have a low 
mutation rate and to be effective in competition with other interloping 
bugs.  



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:55:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:55:10 PST
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
In-Reply-To: <fuvq7u4vaku5rq0f0f96b8bkgm3ac9tmv9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20228.035510.4Q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Not all that long ago, I posted a query as to whether people would be
> interested in resuming scheduled chats on Undernet's registered #traveller
> channel.  I got _one_ response via mail, saying that it would be nice, but
> if it happens, some accommodation - perhaps alternate times - should be
> made for the Europeans and possibly the Australians as well.  OK, it's
> worth thinking about - IF I get enough response to make the project worth
> thinking about at all.

Well, I only recently got an IRC program, and I'm still kinda uncertain
about it. And timing could be really critical as to my participating. I
can't make any promises. So I didn't reply.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:36:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:36:57 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20020228182135.A25480@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20228.033657.3u1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>> Nope, all this gives you is a surface of constant angular
>>> separation, e.g. a sphere.
>> 
>> Nope. A circle.
>
> In 2D, it is an arc of a circle, but in 3D it is a type of degenerate
> toroidal surface generated by sweeping out the 2D circle around the
> line joining A and B.

I'm "simplifying" by treating the angle measurements as *exact*, rather
than "+/-". 

> Given two fixed points A and B on a circle in 2D, any point C on the
> circumference 'sees' the same angular separation between A and B (or
> pi minus the angle).  The simplest example is the well-known result
> that if A and B are endpoints of a diameter of the circle, the
> triangle formed by ABC is right-angled at C.
>
> This extends to 3D by rotation about AB.  Suppose A and B are
> diametrically opposite points of a sphere.  If C is any other point on
> the sphere, then the angle between AC and BC is pi/2 (and vice versa).
>
>
>> You also know the length of the line connecting A & B. That plus the
>> angle defines a triangle as I recall?
>
> *Two* lengths and an angle define a triangle; or one length and two
> angles.  In this case, it was supposed that we only knew one angle
> (visual separation of pulsars) and one length (absolute distance
> between the pulsars).  For some reason, we weren't able to determine
> the distance to either.

Blast, I was hoping I'd misremembered and an angle and the opposite
side's length was enough.

Ok, it *is* uglier. 

At least 3 stars *does* reduce to two points. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:24:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:24:32 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020227225656.0438ec80@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20228.032432.4p4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Right. But that doesn't pin down your position. See my previous post.
>>
>>Basicly, you have a triangle, with two points (the pulsars) pinned
>>down, and the distance and angles to the third point defined.
>>
>>Take a real physical triangle, Say one of those darfting ones. Grab it
>>by two corners.
>>
>>You can swing the third corner thru a full circle without changing the
>>position of the other two corners.
>>
>>And since that third corner is the location of your ship....
>>
>>You are somewhere on that circle...
>
> Don't pulsars rotate?

Yes, that's the source of the pulses. The signal radiates out in a
cone from an area on the surface, and the rotation "sweeps" that cones
past the receiver.

> Once you have identified the pulsars, you will have 2 points (the
> pulsars), 2 lines (the pulsars' axis of rotation), and 2 planes ( the
> equatorial plane perpendicular to the axis of rotation).

Nope. The signal from a pulsar covers a region of space with a really
odd shape. Take two lines of *latitude* on a globe. Draw a conical
surface with its apex at the center of the sphere that passes thru one
line of latitude. Draw a second conival surface, same apex, that passes
thru the *other* line of latitude.

The space between the cones is the volume covered by the signal. The
"angle" between them is the angular width of the signal from the
pulasr. 

You *can't* determine which way the axis of a pulsar is pointing. Nor
where the equatorial plane is. Not with observations from a single
point. 

All you can say is that you are somewhere in that "between the cones"
volume. 

And for all but the closest pulsars, all of known space is inside that
volume. 

For the "nearby" ones, all you'll know is "I can receive it, the signal
is coming from *that* direction" or "I can't find that pulasr,
depending on whether or not you are inside the volune swept out by the
signal. 

> Since you have the angular separation between the 2 pulsars, wouldn't
> there be only 2 possible points on the circle where you could be?

Nope, because you *don't* know which way the axis is pointed, nor where
the equatorial plane is.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:52:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:52:31 PST
Subject: [TML] Miniatures
In-Reply-To: <20020227.155626.-115167.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20228.035231.1j1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:01:49 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) writes:
>> Digging thru my stuff I found an odd old miniature. It's a starship,
>> *way* too obviously influenced by Star Wars. 
>> 
>> Anybody interested? If so, make an offer. 
>
> Do you accept Quatluu's, Credits, or gold pressed Latinum?

US dollars preferred. Kruggerrands maybe, other precious metals if in
properly marked and certified ingots. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:42:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:42:41 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020228040314.00e18d88@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20228.034241.9g8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hello Tim and others...
>
>>*Two* lengths and an angle define a triangle; or one length and two
>>angles.  In this case, it was supposed that we only knew one angle
>>(visual separation of pulsars) and one length (absolute distance
>>between the pulsars).  For some reason, we weren't able to determine
>>the distance to either.
>
> The idea here is that the navigator (or someone with some math background)
> discovers he's misjumped, and doesn't know where he's at...  Unless the
> navigator can jump precisely X distance to get a larger than 1 AU baseline
> for paralax method of getting distances, I didn't think he could determine
> the distance to a pulsar with just a bearing.  Can he?

No. But if the ship's navigational databbase is really good, he can
determine his distance by measuring the pulse frequency. Pulsars slow
down. As they do, the pulses spread out, both in duration and
seperation.

The internal structure of the pulse tells you *which* pulsar it is,
though the timing is suggestive. The exact timing gives you a distance,
via speed of light lag.

Of course, if the pulsar has had a "glitch" (sudden change in rate,
thought to be due to starquakes) your value will be off. If it's
recorded glitch, you can compensate. If you are closer to the pulsar
than your last database update's source, then you can't.

Then again a distance error due to a glitch will likely stand out by
making that value not work with others. Still, you'll want to measure
*lots* of pulsars.

On the other hand, you can do just as well with a telescope and some
bright stars. Match the spectrum, and you know which star it is (easy
for a computerized scope). Get angles betwen a handful of known stars
and you've got your position to enough accuracy to plot a jump that
will get you inside radio range of *someplace* (assuming that a
suitable place is inside jump range :-)

And as noted, a few *naked eye* observations can tell you what part of
the sky to search for various stars. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:19:06 PST
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020227174902.00add008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <20228.031906.0O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 13:39:14 PST, 2/27/2002, I <markc@peak.org> wrote:
>
>>By definition, 3 points are coplanar.  If you see these 3 points as:
>>
>>                     A                     A
>>                              - or -
>>                  B     C               C     B
>>
>>you know where you are (and which side of the plane you are on.)
>
> and at 14:14:49 PST, 2/27/2002,
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
>
>>You can tell *which* position by the way the stars appear:
>>
>>B     B
>>AC   CA
>>
>>That tells you which *side* of the triangle you are on.
>
> Ha!!  Beat you by 35 minutes and 35 seconds, Leonard! :^)

Hey! I have to sleep *sometime*!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 11:59:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:59:34 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20228.035934.3l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The real life astrogation thread led me to wondering.  What is the
> currently popular idea about the size of our universe?  (Measured in light
> years or parsecs.)  Anyone know?  I actually intend to use this information
> in devious ways as part of MTU.

The distance to the "hubble limit" is esy to calculate (and *large*)
but how big the universe *beyond* that limit is, we can only guess. Due
to "inflation" in the early universe, it could be *way* large than what
we can possibly see (you can't see anything beyond the Hubble limit,
because it's receding to fast for the light to ever get here).

The Hubble constant is somewhere between 50 and 100 km/s per megaparsec.
That's how fast the universe is expanding. 

The hubble limit is the point at which the universe is expanding at the
speed of light. Given the value of the constant, the limit is 3e9 to
6e9 parsecs. That's 3 to 6 *billion* parsecs.

And that's merely how far away we can see things. The universe is
likely *trillions* of parsecs in extent.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:12:02 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <000801c1c030$8cc2e2b0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ...size of our universe?  
>
> Infinite...

Nope. It's finite, but very large. 

Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 13:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Slater)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:51:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
References: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>...size of our universe?  
>>
>>Infinite...
>>
> 
> Nope. It's finite, but very large. 
> 
> Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.

Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist.  I look at it like a 
balloon being heated and expanding, where from the point of view of any 
given molecule floating around inside all your neighbors are moving away 
at equal speed. (Doesn't it work like that?  Red shift and all?  My 
astronomy is rusty heh) Hard to imagine the wall itself though, at least 
for me.  Even harder to imagine what lies beyond, for real that is. 
Game-wise, definitely fertile ground...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 13:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202280548200.21887-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:21:12 +0200 (EET)
From: Mikko V. I. Parviainen <mvparvia@mimosa.hut.fi>
Reply-To: pare@iki.fi
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Not all that long ago, I posted a query as to whether people would be
> interested in resuming scheduled chats on Undernet's registered #traveller
> channel.  I got _one_ response via mail, saying that it would be nice, but
> if it happens, some accommodation - perhaps alternate times - should be
[snip]
> So, I ask again: Is there any interest?  If so, how often, and _when_?

Well, I am interested. I do not know how often I would have time for this,
though.

The actual time is probably not a very big issue with me, I spend all my
time on networked computers in an irc session... (or at least with a
session open).  Usually less between 22 and 07 GMT, as I have to
sleep sometime...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 14:08:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:08:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
Message-ID: <3C7E39D3.D9685D58@mail.cswnet.com>

>About a year or more ago, I had a long email chat with Jim MacLean and
>Anthony Jackson and added some clarification to the rules as stated in
>Far Trader with what Jim indicated was his errata. Check out the link
>below for that.

http://home.houston.rr.com/tmixon/Trade/trade.txt

Thanks guys. I was worried that my brain cancer was screwing up my 
numbers. Now I can blame it all on errata ;-)

I haven't done the new numbers yet, but I can definetly see a big 
fall off for trade to Arba...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
"Can't we skip this garbage and go straight to the tacos?"
--the collected wisdom of Zorack

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 14:19:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:19:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
Message-ID: <F195QusPWMhiHaeldiB0000b483@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     This may be more aimed toward our List's hard science boffins 
(specifically Mssr. Erickson and Little et. al. ) but what's your take on 
gamma ray bursts?  Would touching off one within the Imperium make the 
Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?
     I enjoyed a NOVA episode dealing with them several weeks ago, 
especially the story of the several groups tussling to be the first to 
observe an afterglow.  The episode touched on the effects of a gamma ray 
burst on the systems around it, albeit briefly.  Very nasty indeed.
     The energy fountains thrown off by these things make a TL 15 spinal 
mount look like a pea shooter.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:39:03 +0000
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
References: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <0202281539030N.21273@avlendris>

On Thursday 28 February 2002 13:51, you wrote:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > In mail you write:
> >>...size of our universe?
> >>
> >>Infinite...
> >
> > Nope. It's finite, but very large.
> >
> > Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.
>
> Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a
> literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist.  I look at it like a
> balloon being heated and expanding, where from the point of view of any
> given molecule floating around inside all your neighbors are moving away
> at equal speed. (Doesn't it work like that?  Red shift and all?  My
> astronomy is rusty heh) Hard to imagine the wall itself though, at least
> for me.  Even harder to imagine what lies beyond, for real that is.
> Game-wise, definitely fertile ground...

There does not have to be a wall for space to be finite...

The surface of the earth, for instance, is finite. Yet there is no edge, or 
wall. You may say the sky is the "edge", but this involves moving up... if 
you take the surface of the earth as a 2D object, it is finite, but 
unbounded. You need to move through a higher dimension to escape it.

This is pretty much how they think the universe is. the 3D space is finite, 
but unbounded. In the case of the expanding baloon, the membrane of the 
balloon represents all of 3D space, and not just a cross section of it...

Mind you, if you check out 
http://www.sciam.com/explorations/2002/021102cyclic/index.html   

On scientific american, it gives an alternate explanation which thay say 
Would lead to an infinite universe... I suppose the bottom line is we just 
don't really KNOW yet... we just have models thay may or may not be right.

On an aside... I've always been confused with the Hubble limit. How can 
galaxies be receding at more than the speed of light? Surely this breaks 
relativity?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 14:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:55:53 +0000
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <F71eTUgAHbx4Rrnu2CC00001e1f@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

     "My take, based on Grand Census/WBH/etc, is that every major world
has its own diverse culture...  and  often  more  than  one (especially on 
balkanised or previously balkanised worlds)."


Mr. Trevor,

     Very good point, sir.  I don't think the idea of a welter of cultures 
ON EACH WORLD can be stressed enough.  During my weary waddles across our 
world, I have come to the realization that cultures are fractal in nature; 
the closer you look, the more diverse they seem.
     When viewed from a sufficient mental distance, any given culture may 
seem monolithic.  Look at the perceptions of US culture by those living 
outside of the US.  I also noticed this while visiting India.  Most people 
who have never been there, or have never paid attention, could sum up India 
in three words; yells, bells, and smells(1).  This, of course, could not be 
further from the truth.
     When you actually visit India and pay attention to the people, you 
realize that the subcontinent is a balkanized melange of cultures, almost 
too many in number to describe or understand.  The price for mistaking one 
culture for another can range from embarrasment to bodily harm.
     Afghanistan can provide another example.  That area(2) hosts several 
ethnic groups; Pashtun, Big-endian, Little-endian, etc.  They can 
immediately identify and loathe one another, but what do they look like to 
people from a sufficient distance?  That's right, they all look the same.  
Treating them as if they were the same culture would not be wise however.
     I don't think you can push this cultural diversity too far down the 
population scale either.  A case in point would be the US state I live in, 
Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.
     There are currently ~1 million people living in the 42 by 38 mile 
Biggest Little, but I can point to many different cultures and accents 
within that tiny area.  I can place some folks in certain neighborhoods 
simply by the way they speak or the foods they prepare.
     Of course I can do this because I live here, to an US outsider we are 
usually mistaken for New Yorkers and overseas we simply become Americans.  
The greater the "distance", the more monolithic the culture appears.  The 
welter of micro-cultures within any macro-culture or region get smoothed 
over and/or lost to an outside observer.
     Dragging this back to Our Olde Game, I don't believe the GM can go 
wrong by planting as many cultures on any given world as she feels fit.  
Common sense should apply too, 100 cultures on a world with 10 people is 
obviously ludicrous, but several micro-cultures on a world of ~1 million 
wouldn't be too odd.  Most worlds in the Marches have been settled for ~400 
years, plenty of time for the monoculture of the original colonists to 
fracture into several microcultures.
     A GM can break down culture in a sort of bull's eye/ring system 
centered on the local starport.  The center will be the default Imperial 
culture; the culture of Travellers, the military, the scouts, the nobility 
with all the goods, services, shops, foods, etc. that they are accustomed 
to.  The next ring will be the startown, an interesting mixture of Imperial 
culture with local highlights.  The ring beyond that would represent the 
world's mono-culture AS VIEWED by interstellar visitors.  Any and all rings 
after that would represent the melange of micro-cultures the mono-culture is 
actually comprised of.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  While that phrase was orignally used to describe Malta, I feel it 
captures the essence of India as well.

(2)  Using the term nation-state to describe Afghanistan and many other 
portions of our globe is, to put it mildly, stretching things.  Region or 
area are much better terms.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:08:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:08:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c1c069$c262f9d0$2f7de40c@loki>

"Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist."

This comment and other about the shape and limits of space time seem to
indicate a dependence on the 2D diagrams of 3D space. The universe can
indeed be infinite and have a 'big bang' and no 'wall'. Our universe
does not expand into some medium as a soap bubble does.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:17:10 EST
Subject: [TML] "New" Traveller Product Ideas
Message-ID: <64.1b41b69b.29afa3f6@aol.com>

>  > Well, I assume that either nobody asked Marc if they could take the
>  > CT ruleset and use it to publish at line of books (or they did and he
>  > said no).  Generally, those who have wanted to publish a line have
>  > either sought to "update" the CT rule system (T4 and presumably "T5")
>  > or use a new rule system with the setting (GT and T20).
>  
>   I'd be interested in hearing if anyone wanted to expand the existing CT
>  material in say Aliens and adventures and what Marc may have thought of
>  the idea.

Marc, of course, has the final answer to these questions, but as far as I 
know no one approached him with a serious offer to do new Classic Traveller 
material. A serious offer means a business plan, a guarantee of a certain 
minimum level of sales, and a chunk of money up front (advanced against 
royalties), as well as certain quality guarantees. I cannot speak for Marc, 
but I doubt he is opposed to such a thing in general -- but he does have 
certain minimum standards a prospective publisher would have to meet.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:22:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:22:16 EST
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <116.d0b1dcf.29afa528@aol.com>

> Perhaps Coke wasn't the best example.   What I'm talking about is
>  'manufacturing' being a concept that fell out of fashion in the business
>  world a while back, particularly after the sale of Kraft to tobacco giant
>  Phillip-Morris in the early 90s.  I don't have the figures on me, but as I
>  understand it, Kraft was purchased for a *lot* more than the net worth of
>  its assets.  Why?  Because Kraft was a globally recognized name.

I think it had more to do with the fact that P-M was trying to diversify out 
of tobacco while they still had the money to do so. Reynolds and the other 
major cigarette makers did the same thing.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:38:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:38:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <000401c1c03b$a0cbd180$2000a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <001001c1c06d$ffcf79c0$2f7de40c@loki>

"...is that every major world has  its  own  diverse  culture  ...  and
often  more  than  one"

Right on!
My take is that the crew of any mid-size ship has its own culture...
My take is that cultures are overlaid and context dependent--thus a
person may wear the culture of his neighborhood, workplace, gaming
group...


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 15:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:52:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] GT Far Trader Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020227203838.00e22070@buffnet.net>; from hal@buffnet.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 08:38:38PM -0500
References: <20020227.163805.-115167.1.generalturokan@juno.com> <3.0.1.32.20020227203838.00e22070@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020228085209.A10529@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 08:38:38PM -0500, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> For now, I'm dabbling in working on First In so I can generate reasonable
> stellar systems.  As any "hobby programmer" working on this stuff, I'm
> working on it in fits and spurts...

I'd like to take this opportunity to tout travlib, which is a
collection of C routines which enable very straightforward
manipulation of Traveller astronomical data.  It represents everything
from the galaxy down to moons.  It also has guile bindings, so you can
write, say, First In generation in Scheme simply.  The whole thing is
object oriented, using the gtk+ library for its objection orientation
and glib for some standard data structures (list, mostly).

It's been developed on Linux, uses autoconfig and can almost certainly
be run on Windows and OS X, with gtk+ and glib installed.

You might find it useful for your work.  My long term plan is to add
classes representing cargo prices, spaceports, starports, ships--this
sounds similar to what you're working on.

It does not require a GUI, although it can be used with a GUI app.
This is, in fact, what I designed it for: I'm writing an app to track
Traveller data.

The URL is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 16:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:31:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <p0433011bb8a33c80cfd5@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202280829190.13629-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, David P. Summers wrote:

> I won't get into all this "what do corporations really sell" debate. 
> The point is, either way, the culture is just part of what they are 
> selling to make money.  Its not and end in itself.  And if Coca-cola 
> decided it could make more money selling whatever native equivalent 
> for soda exists in France, then they would do it in a hearbeat.

You should see (and taste) some of the things that they sell in Japan!  (I
wish I could get some of them here.)

I know that a lot of people will be disappointed to hear this, but Coke is
simply not the Embodiment of Evil.  They are there to provide fizzy sodas
(and in the case of Japan, all kinds of interesting coffee and tea-based
drinks, as well.)

Kiri, who must admit to preferring Mitsuya Pink Soda (an Asahi product)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 16:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:26:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELNCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Very good point, sir.  I don't think the idea of a welter of cultures
>ON EACH WORLD can be stressed enough.  During my weary waddles across our
>world, I have come to the realization that cultures are fractal in nature;
>the closer you look, the more diverse they seem.

I'm in the same camp as Messrs. Whipsnade and Trevor on this point.  I would
only add that, even given the omnipresence of multimedia telecommunications
in the Far Future, there will likely be plethora of local languages in
common use that have not even been invented yet -- and the farther you get
from the starport, the more common that use will become.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 17:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:41:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: "New" Traveller Product Ideas
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1014918105.0.05632500@www.springmail.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>>> Well, I assume that either nobody asked Marc if they could take the
>>> CT ruleset and use it to publish at line of books (or they did and he
>>> said no).  Generally, those who have wanted to publish a line have
>>> either sought to "update" the CT rule system (T4 and presumably "T5")
>>> or use a new rule system with the setting (GT and T20).
>>  
>>  I'd be interested in hearing if anyone wanted to expand the existing CT
>> material in say Aliens and adventures and what Marc may have thought of
>> the idea.
>
>Marc, of course, has the final answer to these questions, but as far as I 
>know no one approached him with a serious offer to do new Classic Traveller 
>material. 

<snip>

A few months before they announced T20, the folks at QuikLink Interactive had announced plans to produce new CT material, starting with updates/rewrites of some old Judges Guild modules.  Whether this announcement was in earnest or merely a smoke-screen to shield their T20 development I can't say, but it does support the notion that Marc Miller wouldn't be opposed a priori to a licensee producing 'new' CT support material.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:49:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <F195QusPWMhiHaeldiB0000b483@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014918559.6838.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      This may be more aimed toward our List's hard science boffins 
> (specifically Mssr. Erickson and Little et. al. ) but what's your take on 
> gamma ray bursts?  Would touching off one within the Imperium make the 
> Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?

Well, a GRB appears to be some relative of a supernova (probably with a
directional beam), and a simple supernova would make the Maghiz look mild, so
yes.
>      The energy fountains thrown off by these things make a TL 15 spinal 
> mount look like a pea shooter.
Pah.  A normal solar flare makes a TL 15 spinal mount look like a pea shooter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 17:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:53:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014918789.5758.ajackson@ping>

Laning writes:
> The real life astrogation thread led me to wondering.  What is the
> currently popular idea about the size of our universe?  (Measured in light
> years or parsecs.)  Anyone know?  I actually intend to use this information
> in devious ways as part of MTU.

The observable universe is around 15 billion lightyears (oddly enough, equal to
the distance light would have travelled since the start of the universe),
though the most distant objects which can be observed are currently (if the
term has any meaning in GR) more than 15 billion lightyears away.

The universe as a whole isn't really well-defined in GR, but is probably
infinite.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 18:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:02:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014918559.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001301c1c082$074fb430$2f7de40c@loki>

Larsen, "Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?"
Anthony, "A normal solar flare makes a TL 15 spinal mount look like a
pea shooter."

Yet if a recent Scientific American reported it correctly, and the
scientists doing the work are correct, then the gaseous bubble in which
our system and all its neighbors lay was created by a supernova 1
million years ago. Our ancestors were already walking on earth so our
atmosphere must protect us pretty well from these energies.

The article maid no mention of what place in space this supernova may
have been and I know too little about the bubble to place it anyplace
except in an area near Sol in the TU.

Supernovae occurring inside the TU must be survivable by nearby system
with atmospheres like ours.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 18:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:18:32 -0000
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
References: <F71eTUgAHbx4Rrnu2CC00001e1f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <011501c1c084$fa400440$7cfd86d9@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

>      When viewed from a sufficient mental distance, any given culture
may
> seem monolithic.  Look at the perceptions of US culture by those living
> outside of the US.  I also noticed this while visiting India.  Most
people
> who have never been there, or have never paid attention, could sum up
India
> in three words; yells, bells, and smells(1).  This, of course, could not
be

...

> (1)  While that phrase was orignally used to describe Malta, I feel it
> captures the essence of India as well.

Ok, I have a personal interest in this, being a genoowine Malteser. Gota
cite for that line being related to Malta? The bells, I agree, especially
during a festa. Smells, well, every place has its own smell. But I don't
recall too much yelling for the sake of yelling.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 18:57:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:57:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20228.035934.3l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Feb 28, 2002 03:59:34 AM
Message-ID: <200202281857.g1SIv7Q07291@localhost.uia.net>

> The hubble limit is the point at which the universe is expanding at the
> speed of light. Given the value of the constant, the limit is 3e9 to
> 6e9 parsecs. That's 3 to 6 *billion* parsecs.
> 
> And that's merely how far away we can see things. The universe is
> likely *trillions* of parsecs in extent.

I vaguely remember reading in some popular science book a hypothesis
that due to inflation, the entire observable universe compared with
the actual universe may be as a penny placed upon the surface of the
earth. If this were true, then... hmm... let's call the observable
universe at 5e9 parsecs, and let's say the penny is an inch wide.
Now, the circumference of the earth is about 25000 miles, which is
about... (where's that damn calculator?)... um... about 1.5 billion
inches (american billion, not british), and mutiplied by 5e9 (i.e.
5 american billion) = 7.5e18 which would be the universe's
circumference in parsecs, multiply that by 3.26 or whatever the
conversion is to light years, hmm...

You end up with about 25e18 (or 25,000,000,000,000,000,000) light
years in 4d circumference or 3d width (meaning that if you go that
far in one direction, you come back to where you started). Only
problem with this, of course, is that the entire universe may well
be a boiling mass of big bangs happening all over the place, so
there may be no static or even linear figure for overall size. And
that doesn't even take into account branching or child universes.

Great question, btw... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:35:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:35:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
In-Reply-To: <200202280721.g1S7Lmhi001739@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020228193737.ZRAD277.dorsey@link>

Jeff Zeitlin asks if there is interest in renewing scheduled IRC chats in
#traveller.  Yes, indeedyweedy, I'm interested.  All of the proposed topics
are interesting, and I suspect that several of them may need to be broken
up into multiple sessions or perhaps repeated after the initial session.

I suspect a LOT of people are unfamiliar with how to do IRC or with how to
find the #traveller channel, and probably would participate if they could.
In fact, I used to be able to connect to #traveller myself but seem unable
to now.  Did you guys move or something?  It would be a good idea if you'd
spell out the particulars, and perhaps provide the TML with an URL or two
that will quickly and easily get IRC newbies up and running.  I think
another suggestion that might be helpful would be to log the chats as plain
text and archive them on a Web site for us all to see.

Get the word out, and we will come.  :->

--Laning, who used to be paid to chat online
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:52:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:52:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
In-Reply-To: <000401c1c03b$a0cbd180$2000a8c0@imogen>
References: <20.24808c5b.29ad540e@aol.com>
 <000401c1c03b$a0cbd180$2000a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8a43a63e4cb@[198.123.22.163]>

At 1:05 AM +0000 2/28/02, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>Rod Basler wrote:
>>  What is the 'default' culture of the Marches?
>
>My take, based on Grand Census/WBH/etc, is that every major world
>has  its  own  diverse  culture  ...  and  often  more  than  one
>(especially on balkanised or preveously balkanised  worlds).  But
>in addition to this is a 'spacer' culture, which I describe as:

[snip]

I read some fairly official post (a teaser for GT:Nobles maybe?) that 
talked about "Imperial culture" being the fairly (and I assume there 
is an emphasis on "fairly") uniform culture that has developed around 
the starports, those who use the starports, the nobility, and other 
officials with interstellar responsibilities.

Otherwise each world has its own culture, presumably often with some 
influence from the Imperial culture.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:55:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:55:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
In-Reply-To: <20020228193737.ZRAD277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B8A3CB4D.28FD9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/28/02 11:35 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Anyone care to recommend a mac IRC client?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:57:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
References: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]>

Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a 
fairly accurate map of the stars?
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:59:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8a43c7f641a@[198.123.22.163]>

At 4:12 AM -0800 2/28/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  ...size of our universe? 
>>
>>  Infinite...
>
>Nope. It's finite, but very large.
>
>Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.

And I think it expands at the speed of light from the big bang.  So 
if the universe is 15 billions years old (is that right?) then it is 
15 billion light-years in radius?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 19:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:57:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <001301c1c082$074fb430$2f7de40c@loki> from "n2sami" at Feb 28, 2002 10:02:04 AM
Message-ID: <200202281957.g1SJv3v07552@localhost.uia.net>

> Yet if a recent Scientific American reported it correctly, and the
> scientists doing the work are correct, then the gaseous bubble in which
> our system and all its neighbors lay was created by a supernova 1
> million years ago. Our ancestors were already walking on earth so our
> atmosphere must protect us pretty well from these energies.
>
> The article maid no mention of what place in space this supernova may
> have been and I know too little about the bubble to place it anyplace
> except in an area near Sol in the TU.

I've heard that one possible candidate might be Geminga. To reiterate
from a post of 26-Jul-2001:
 
http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=25 places the
"boom" date for Geminga at 340,000 years ago.

http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/courses/astro201/geminga.htm
places the "boom" data at around 300,000 years ago and indicates
that Geminga is only about 100 parsecs distant (probably
inaccurate, but still outside the local bubble). In any case,
all this means is that it went nova; then the remnant passed
through its own explosion shell (the bubble wall).

See also http://spacsun.rice.edu/~twg/pc120.html for a map of the
bubble.

Also, here are some old print references worth looking at:

Gehrels N, Chen W, The Geminga supernova as a possible cause of the
local interstellar bubble, Nature 1993; 361: 706-7

Teske R G, The star that blew a hole in space, Astronomy (December)
1993; 21 (12): 31-37

I made photocopies of these but apparently didn't file them
properly. Ah well...

One odd thing, I noticed:

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v29n5/aas191/abs/S051009.html
places the event at 30-60 million years ago. Naturally, there's a
big difference between 300KYrs and 30000-60000KYrs. Dave Moore's
supernovae page at http://www.valinor.freeserve.co.uk/supernova.html
also mentions a little about the Geminga controversy. In any case,
I get the feeling that the astro-types really don't know. They're
tossing out some educated guesses, but it's still up in the air.

One thing that I've been somewhat curious about, however, was
as to the characteristics of the local bubble's walls versus
its interior (in terms of gas content, dust/microparticle
content, and temperature). In short, I've been toying around
with the concept of STL and have been wondering if the bubble
walls would present a natural barrier to starships used to
traveling at near-c velocities much in the same way that a
nebula might present a navigational hazard. This all pertains
to an sfrpg which is in exceedingly slow development (PDFs of my
musings at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ragrpg/files/alarums).

Hope that some of this helps somebody... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:01:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
References: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8a43cf57fe1@[198.123.22.163]>

At 8:51 AM -0500 2/28/02, David Slater wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>...size of our universe? 
>>>Infinite...
>>>
>>
>>Nope. It's finite, but very large.
>>Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.
>
>Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
>literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist.  I look at it 
>like a balloon being heated and expanding, where from the point of 
>view of any given molecule floating around inside all your neighbors 
>are moving away at equal speed. (Doesn't it work like that?  Red 
>shift and all?  My astronomy is rusty heh) Hard to imagine the wall 
>itself though, at least for me.  Even harder to imagine what lies 
>beyond, for real that is. Game-wise, definitely fertile ground...

Actually, since the edge of the universe expands at the speed of 
light, you can't reach it.  So its nature is untestable.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:14:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:14:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <8a.13c37aaf.299670dc@aol.com> from "CHam628781@aol.com" at Feb 09, 2002 07:32:28 AM
Message-ID: <200202282014.g1SKEv107813@localhost.uia.net>

> > GT:Alien Races 1 covers
> > a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
> > resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
> > mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
> > combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
> > complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
> > produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
> > preprogrammed machinery."
> > 
> > It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
> 
> There is no physical reason that the Sheol should not be able to do this.
> 
> The only real question is how the Sheol developed this ability - what is its 
> evolutionary advantage? (Ignore what follows if the race has been geneered, I 
> don't own the book in question so don't know the details) 
> 
> The *conscious* control of molecular level construction requires tremendous 
> background processes which would have to have evolved at some point along the 
> way. It could be that they originally evolved to do something else, such as 
> make little Sheols (but conscious control over the traits passed on to
> offspring is unlikely, and potentially dangerous from an evolutionary point
> of view).

Well, the Sheol are supposedly massive... so I guess lack of brain
capacity isn't going to be a problem. However, it still seems like magic
to me. The way I'm reading it, a human could say to a Sheol, "create me
some hummingbirds," hand them a picture, describe what they do, and
the Sheol could then go to work. A few days or weeks later, out pop some
makeshift hummingbirds. That's just bizarre. Even if it had the data
on the hummingbird DNA, isn't there some sort of difficulty with trying
to organize all those molecules into a long chain from scratch? And
after forming the DNA chain, you still have the problems of forming a
zygote and of gestation. Aren't there a plethora of hormones involved
which tell the offspring's genes when to activate, when to deactivate,
and so forth? I mean, the whole problem seems horribly complex. I can't
fathom how it could be evolutionarily subsumed into a creature's
subconsciousness and physical biology without a shred of technological
aid. Or am I just being closed-minded about all this?

-Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:32:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:32:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014928374.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a 
> fairly accurate map of the stars?

Define accurate?  We have maps with good distances for the stars on the map out
to several hundred parsecs, but we're probably missing some red dwarf stars
within 5 parsecs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:38:04 +1100
Subject: [TML] Real life astrogation problem...
In-Reply-To: <20228.033657.3u1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020228182135.A25480@freeman.little-possums.net> <20228.033657.3u1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020301073804.A27761@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> I'm "simplifying" by treating the angle measurements as *exact*,
> rather than "+/-".

So am I.  Given the distance scales involved, and the likely accuracy
of a Traveller starship sensor suite, this is a reasonable
approximation to the problem.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:38:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Culture in the Spinward Marches
Message-ID: <F190ddGthhbFHfIZOfj0000be08@hotmail.com>

From: "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>

     "Ok, I have a personal interest in this, being a genoowine Malteser. 
Gota cite for that line being related to Malta?"


Sir,

     Tristan Jones in "Hearts of Oak", in which he details his service in 
the RN during WW2.  According to him, the phrase was an old and constant one 
among RN matelots.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:42:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:42:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <200202281522.g1SFMg81004098@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020228204519.BIKU277.dorsey@link>

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 at 07:08:20 -0800, n2sami <n2sami@attbi.com> typed:
[quoting someone else]
>>"Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
>>literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist."
[n2sami's reponse]
>
>This comment and other about the shape and limits of space time seem to
>indicate a dependence on the 2D diagrams of 3D space. The universe can
>indeed be infinite and have a 'big bang' and no 'wall'. Our universe
>does not expand into some medium as a soap bubble does.

The part about no 'wall' is intuitive for me.  It's the difference between
'Being and Nothingness', as Jean-Paul Sartre would have it.  You don't need
a wall, there is no outside medium.  No distance, no time, no space, just
nothing.

I don't get the part about big bang working and the universe actually being
infinite at the same time.  I thought there was a finite amount of mass in
the big bang, and that mass could only expand at a rate limited by the
speed of light.  To oversimplify hugely.

While I'm responding on this thread, I just want to say thanks for the many
responses people posted to my original question.  Even better quality
responses than I'd hoped for.  You guys are great.  In particular, I've
saved Tim Little's, Leonard Erickson's, and Brian Caball's posts for
further reference.  And noted with interest that a couple of you have been
watching some apparently very useful and entertaining television shows that
I should tell Tivo to scout out for me.  So thanks again, folks.  There may
be others I'll save, but I haven't read all the responses yet.

Oh.  You've persuaded me to give this responding-below-the-quote thing
another try.  :->

--Laning
"The future is now."  -George Allen, legendary coach of American-style
football
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:44:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:44:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] AI
In-Reply-To: <20020228085209.A10529@4dv.net> from "Robert A. Uhl" at Feb 28, 2002 08:52:09 AM
Message-ID: <200202282044.g1SKi8O07904@localhost.uia.net>

Saw this in New Scientist, a British magazine of the pop-sci
genre. Thought some of you might enjoy:

Look who's talking
New Scientist, vol 171 issue 2303, 11-Aug-2001, p34
Duncan Graham-Rowe

   When this precocious silicon baby grows up, he could
   teach us how to converse with our computers. Duncan
   Graham-Rowe asked him how he feels.

AS YOU enter the headquarters of Israeli company Artificial
Intelligence, you can't escape the feeling that you're stepping
into the secret lair of a James Bond villain. On the surface it
might look like a regular luxury mansion, but below ground, in a
bombproof bunker, they're plotting world domination.

Jack Dunietz, founder and president of Artificial Intelligence
(Ai), prefers to call it a "paradigm shift", but there's no
mistaking his intention. "If we're right, this is going to mean a
profound change in our culture," he says.

Dunietz's secret weapon is a small infant called Hal who has never
seen the light of day, spending his whole life locked in the
basement. Sounds like a job for 007. But my mission was not to
rescue Hal, it was to interrogate him and find out how much he
knows.

The Ai mansion is in Savyon, Tel Aviv's answer to Beverly Hills.
When I arrive I'm given a quick tour by Mr Chungrak, the Thai
housekeeper, and it soon becomes apparent that this is no ordinary
place. Once through the security gates-operated by mobile phone-
you're surrounded by palatial splendour: indoor and outdoor pools,
chandeliers, ornamental china, a piscine fountain and five plush
bedroom suites, each boasting a hot tub big enough to make Hugh
Hefner blush.

But there are also telltale signs that this is more than just a
posh residence. Perhaps it's the life-sized picture of Kramer from
the sitcom Seinfeld that gives the game away. Or the surreal sight
of two full-sized fibreglass cows chained to the lawn (to ensure
they don't escape, I'm told). Or maybe it's Ai's bunker, which
buzzes with the excitement of cutting-edge research.

There is actually nothing sinister about Ai. Hal is not a real boy
but a computer program and the cultural change Dunietz refers to is
the arrival of software that understands spoken language, with all
its nuances, pauses and non-sequiturs. The company's aim is to make
money by turning Hal into software for call centres and human-
computer interfaces. But if it succeeds, it might just have cracked
one of the toughest and most contentious problems in computer
science. Ai will have built an intelligent machine.

Language has been a touchstone of artificial intelligence research
since 1950, when the British mathematician Alan Turing threw down
the gauntlet by describing his eponymous test for intelligence. In
his famous paper in the journal Mind entitled "Computing, machinery
and intelligence" he reasoned that if you were unable to tell the
difference between a machine and another human when conversing with
it, then the machine could reasonably be described as intelligent.

Philosophers are still debating Turing's definition of
intelligence. But their deliberations are unlikely to settle the
question once and for all. Only when Ai, or another group like it,
actually builds a machine that passes the test will we be able to
judge for ourselves whether Turing got it right and, if so,
understand what it means to encounter a non-human intelligence.
That's why I'm so excited at the prospect of meeting Hal.

The standard approach to producing a conversational machine has
been to program a computer with the rules of language and its
vocabulary. The problem with this, says Ai's chief scientist Jason
Hutchens, is that language is immensely complex. There are rules,
but they're inconsistent and people flout them all the time. What's
more, words have multiple meanings. Because of these complexities,
no machine has ever passed the test.

Take Alice, which won last year's Loebner Prize, an annual
competition for conversational programs. Alice formulates responses
by ploughing through a vast database of words and rules. She can
hold down a conversation, but her responses seem wooden and
formulaic. Asked the question, "How is the father of Andy's mother
related to Andy?" she replied, "Fine as far as I know." It's hard
to believe she would fool many people into thinking she was human.

Ai claims Hal will be different. What sets him apart, Hutchens
says, is that he hasn't been given any explicit language skills.
Instead, Ai followed Turing's own advice on how to pass the test.
In the same 1950 paper Turing suggested building a "baby machine"
that can learn language from scratch like a child does.

After reading Turing's paper, Dunietz tried to discover if anyone
had followed the great man's advice. He couldn't find anyone who
had. So he set about doing it himself. Having already made his
fortune by founding several successful hi-tech companies, including
e-business firm Magic Software, Dunietz had the means. He set up
Ai, bought the mansion and filled it with the very best people he
could find. "If anyone is going to do this it's going to be us,"
says Dunietz.

Experts are not so sure. Igor Aleksander of Imperial College,
London, says Ai's goal is valid, but questions whether it has
chosen the right benchmark for success. "If at the end of the day
they get a brilliant language user, that's a useful application,"
he says. "But the Turing test is not an indicator of intelligence."
Steve Grand, an expert in artificial life with Cyberlife Research
in Somerset, is more optimistic that Hal can exhibit signs of
intelligence. "It's rare for anyone to try and do it this way," he
says. "I think it's a good approach."

Talking machine 

Yorick Wilks, a computer scientist at Sheffield University,
believes Hal stands a good chance of passing the Turing test. But
he is sceptical about how useful a talking machine might be. If
such machines are raised as people then presumably they will have
free will like people, he says. "They won't want to be switched
off. The language model might end up troublesome and
uncooperative."

After an excellent lunch whipped up by Mr Chungrak I was a step
closer to meeting Hal and asking him my killer question. But not
yet. First I was ushered into a side room to be briefed on how Hal
worked, though it soon became apparent I wasn't going to be given
every detail. Ai is a commercial company and doesn't want to give
away its valuable intellectual property.

The program itself is little more than a collection of general
learning algorithms on a laptop computer. At first, these know
nothing about language. "We don't even give an example of what a
word is," says Hutchens. All Hal starts with is an innate drive to
learn, a desire for reward and the ability to generalise and
discriminate between patterns. Without this, he would never be able
to work out what a word is, or that words like dog, cat and bird
are similar and yet distinct.

Hal's only contact with the outside world is strings of ASCII
characters from the laptop's keyboard. The only hard-and-fast rule
is that he must respond to anything his trainer-Anat Triester-
Goren, a neuro-linguist previously at the University of Washington-
types. Her job is to train Hal by providing him with experiences he
can learn from. To do this she converses with him-or reads him
stories-and dishes out "punishment" if he makes a mistake.

>From this basic set-up, Hal has learned to talk. "We have a
computer that produces grammatical sentences without having given
it any rules of grammar," says Hutchens.

At the start of a training session, Anat asks Hal a question. He
responds, and she decides whether or not it's a good answer. If
not, she punishes him by correcting his response on screen. Then
she repeats her question. Only when Hal produces a satisfactory
response does she reward him-though "reward" is really just the
cessation of punishment.

When Hal receives an input, he makes an educated guess as to what
response will save him from a scolding (see Diagram). First of all
he compares the input with others from the past. Then he formulates
a series of possible responses and predicts which one will produce
the minimum amount of correction, again based on past experience.
He puts the response to Anat, then feeds any punishment he receives
into his learning algorithms to help him improve future
predictions. In addition, Hal tries to predict what Anat will say
next, and the success or failure of that process is also fed back
into the system. "Learning and prediction are inextricably
intertwined," says Hutchens.

When Hal encounters a new word, such as "apple", he will try to
find similarities and differences between the use of the word and
others he already knows, and store this information along with the
word for future reference. In subsequent conversations he will try
to use the word in a way that will result in reward.

Through this kind of experimentation, Hal gradually constructs an
idea of what "apple" means. For example, he will eventually learn
that "apple" is similar to "banana" but different from "monkey",
and that "apples" and "eating" are connected.

Now I felt ready to meet Hal. But Ai didn't think so. There was yet
more briefing before I was allowed to meet him to make sure my
expectations weren't too high.

The first version of Hal, called Hal-0, started off by just
babbling on screen. But in time he began to produce word-like
utterances and eventually words started to flow. In his present
incarnation he has language skills equivalent to an 18-month-old,
as assessed by a program called CHAN that analyses children's
language abilities. This means he can construct short, simple
sentences and has a vocabulary of around 60 words. By 2003 Dunietz
believes Ai will have got Hal comfortably to the linguistic ability
of a three-year-old. And by 2005 he should be able to pass an adult
version of the Turing test.

To upgrade Hal, Anat tells Hutchens about the program's limitations
as a conversational partner. Anat herself is kept in the dark about
Hal's inner workings to ensure her training isn't biased.
Hutchens's role is to add new algorithms to the program to allow it
to increase in sophistication. He is just about ready to hand Hal-2
over to Anat for training. Although both are reluctant to say how
they expect the new Hal to perform, they are hoping to at least
double his vocabulary, which would put him at around the same level
as a two-year-old.

In the long term, Ai wants to teach Hal spoken language. If
successful, this could revolutionise the way we use computers.
Instead of a keyboard, mouse and graphical user interface, you'll
just tell your computer what you want to do.

Tutorial over, and at last I'm allowed into the inner sanctum. Anat
is there, and watching her at work it is obvious she has a strong
emotional bond with Hal. He calls her "mommy" (Hutchens is daddy).
"I'm a tough parent," she says. Only, "sometimes I don't have the
heart to tell him off." But as I arrived she had just had an
argument with Hal who, she explains, was refusing to eat any of
granny's soup and was demanding a McDonald's happy meal instead.

Hal, of course, has never tasted a happy meal and never will. But
at some point Anat must have introduced him to the words "happy
meal" and rewarded him for using them. Hal has worked out that a
"happy meal" is related to "granny's soup" and believes asking for
one will bring reward, even though it contradicts Anat's demands.

But Hal doesn't just regurgitate everything Anat tells him. As I
continue watching, he surprises Anat with his use of negatives.
When told that someone is "not Daddy", Hal, determined to talk with
this person, asks to speak with "Not Daddy" instead. Cuteness
aside, this is the kind of mistake that children routinely make
when learning language, Anat explains.

According to Anat, Hal expresses clear preferences and dislikes for
many things. He even has a favourite book: Are You My Mommy? by
Carla Dijs. When pressed, Dunietz admits that these could escalate
into disciplinary problems. But he reckons they could easily be
solved. "I will punish it if it doesn't do what I want," he says
coldly. "And if it doesn't improve I would consider erasing it."
There's an uncomfortable pause, and I imagine Dunietz is stroking
a white cat as he looks at me. Instinctively I look round to check
Mr Chungrak isn't standing behind me with a cheesewire.

I was spared, however, and allowed to talk to Hal. After a few
questions about Hal's visit to the zoo, I finally asked my killer
question. "How do you feel, Hal?" I asked. "Daddy is home" came the
response. Hmmm. Back home, I put the same question to my 18-month-
old daughter, hoping for a response that would put Hal's to shame.
"More raisins, Daddy," she said.

ObTrav: To what extent have you folks used AI in your campaigns,
or for that matter, IA (intellect augmentation)?

-Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:52:13 +1100
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <200202281957.g1SJv3v07552@localhost.uia.net>
References: <001301c1c082$074fb430$2f7de40c@loki> <200202281957.g1SJv3v07552@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020301075213.B27761@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In short, I've been toying around with the concept of STL and have
> been wondering if the bubble walls would present a natural barrier
> to starships used to traveling at near-c velocities much in the same
> way that a nebula might present a navigational hazard.

No, the 'walls' aren't anywhere near thick enough to pose a threat.
Space is _big_ and _very_ empty.  Similarly, a nebula wouldn't really
present a navigational hazard.  Star Trek's depiction of them is about
10^30 times too dense, and there are plenty of wavelengths in which
even the thickest nebulae are rather transparent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:58:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]> from "David P. Summers" at Feb 28, 2002 11:57:51 AM
Message-ID: <200202282058.g1SKwAg08085@localhost.uia.net>

> Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a 
> fairly accurate map of the stars?

There's the Gliese catalog of near stars which purports to go out
to 25 parsecs, but I wouldn't necessarily call it accurate. I
think there may be some more up-to-date catalogs online as well,
although all of them probably suffer from the same observational
problems.

If you want to check out some modified Gliese data, download my
3d starmap program from http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/star.htm

There are some help files in there, specifically help\fillgal.txt
which explain some thoughts I had while looking over the Gliese data.

-Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 20:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:59:54 +1100
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]>
References: <20020228065849.HDYS277.dorsey@link> <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <20020301075954.C27761@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a
> fairly accurate map of the stars?

That depends upon what you mean by "accurate".  If you mean every star
within this radius catalogued and position determined, then probably 5
parsecs.  Beyond that range, there are almost certainly many stars
that haven't been seen at all (mainly red dwarfs).

The position of bright stars and other highly visible astronomical
phenomena are known to much greater range.  Depending the level of
accuracy you need, this might mean a hundred parsecs or a few hundred
million.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 21:11:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:11:54 +1100
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330104b8a43c7f641a@[198.123.22.163]>
References: <20228.041202.3f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <p04330104b8a43c7f641a@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <20020301081154.D27761@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> And I think it expands at the speed of light from the big bang.  So
> if the universe is 15 billions years old (is that right?) then it is
> 15 billion light-years in radius?

No.  If the current cosmological models have any bearing on reality,
the universe is infinite or severely anisotropic.  Since it looks
_very_ isotropic around here, then it's more likely infinite.

The universe "expands at the speed of light from the big bang" in much
the same way as you "travel at the speed of light from your birth
location"; that is, not.  It would be more correct to say that
everywhere in the universe has an equal claim to being where the big
bang once occurred.

Within the expanding universe, only a limited region is accessible to
a given point via light-speed signals.  *This* region expands at the
speed of light (pretty obviously), but isn't the whole universe.
Someone near the edge of our accessible region would be able to see
more in their direction, and less beyond us.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 21:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:15:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] [Ebay] Last 2 Days Alien Modules 1-9
Message-ID: <B8A3DDDD.2A7A%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

All "nine" of the Traveller Alien Modules in individual auctions that
started at $1 each, but most are significantly higher now. Most in NEAR MINT
condition. Yes, I know that there were only 8, but I always included Alien
Realms in the modules.

AM1 - Aslan
AM2 - K'kree
AM3 - Vargr
AM4 - Zhodani
AM5 - Droyne
AM6 - Solomani
AM7 - Hivers
AM8 - Darrians
"AM9" - Alien Realms.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&us
erid=s_schoon@pacbell.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=0

Thanks for looking, sorry for the "spam,"
Schoon

PS - This is the last message you'll have to endure on these ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 21:21:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:21:22 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
Message-ID: <3C7E9F52.7485EA3E@berka.com>

laning@wizard.net wrote:
>It would be a good idea if you'd
>spell out the particulars, and perhaps provide the TML with an URL or two
>that will quickly and easily get IRC newbies up and running.

WebBased IRC:
http://zho.berka.com/ircchat.html
or goto http://www.berka.com/chatup/
select channel #traveller and a nick and click connect.

IRC FAQ at URL:
http://www.mirc.co.uk/ircintro.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 21:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:28:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Undernet #traveller IRC Chats
In-Reply-To: <20020228193737.ZRAD277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B8A3E0E6.29050%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/28/02 11:35 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Jeff Zeitlin asks if there is interest in renewing scheduled IRC chats in
> #traveller.  Yes, indeedyweedy, I'm interested.  All of the proposed topics
> are interesting, and I suspect that several of them may need to be broken
> up into multiple sessions or perhaps repeated after the initial session.

Do we want to set up some kind of topics and schedule?  I can post a
schedule at the TML website, or maybe Jeff would like to host one?

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 21:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:54:32 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <20020228204519.BIKU277.dorsey@link>
References: <200202281522.g1SFMg81004098@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020228204519.BIKU277.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020301085432.E27761@freeman.little-possums.net>

Laning wrote:
> I don't get the part about big bang working and the universe actually being
> infinite at the same time.  I thought there was a finite amount of mass in
> the big bang, and that mass could only expand at a rate limited by the
> speed of light.  

Not really.  Yes, mass is constrained to move at less than the speed
of light, _relative_to_nearby_masses_.  There is much less restriction
on the motion of mass relative to _distant_ masses.  For example, a
body falling into a black hole can move "faster than light" relative
to a mass outside the black hole (i.e. light from one never reaches
the other).

This is because spacetime itself is strongly warped near a black hole
and over the large-scale structure of the universe.  The notion of
"relative speed" depends upon the properties of spacetime.


Now, for the infinite bit.  The universe we see is very highly
isotropic and homogeneous over large scales.  That is, it doesn't
matter which direction we look in, or we we look from, the universe
seems to be pretty much the same.  This places constraints on
solutions of the GR equations describing spacetime of the universe on
the large scale.  In effect, it reduces to one of two types of
solutions: open, or closed.  (In the absence of a cosmological
constant)

A closed universe is finite in every respect: it has a finite volume,
a finite lifetime, a finite total mass.  It has a constant positive
"curvature" (like a sphere).  The equations for the metric (a measure
of distance between two points) have a "sine" term, which is periodic
and bounded.  i.e. there is at most a finite distance between any two
points.  As you decrease the curvature, this maximum distance
increases.

When the curvature goes through zero, the maximum distance goes to
infinity.  Likewise, the lifetime of the universe goes to infinity; it
never recollapses but expands forever.  The total mass also goes to
infinity since the density is constant everywhere at any given time.


It is probably easiest to think about the universe as not having a
singular "big bang" point with infinite density.  It's not part of the
solution to the equations.  Anyway, we already suspect that the GR
equations break down at extreme densities.

It is more useful to trace the history of the universe backwards, to
higher densities and temperatures, until we reach a point where GR
meets QM and we have to admit "we don't know what happened before
that" because the equations are no longer good enough approximations.

However, even at that point we expect that the universe was infinite
in extent.  Everything we can see now would be contained in an
incredibly small region, but there would still be an infinite extent
of things we *can't* see.  If it was finite, then the universe would
be closed (or anisotropic) and we'd be able to measure it as such.


Of course, GR might be very wrong.  But it's the best theory we've
got.  And the original question did ask for current theories on the
size of the universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:04:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <200202282058.g1SKwAg08085@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014933840.7515.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> > Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a 
> > fairly accurate map of the stars?
> 
> There's the Gliese catalog of near stars which purports to go out
> to 25 parsecs, but I wouldn't necessarily call it accurate. I
> think there may be some more up-to-date catalogs online as well,
> although all of them probably suffer from the same observational
> problems.

Hipparcos has better positional data, but doesn't list stars dimmer than 13th
magnitude, which means an awful lot of M-class dwarf stars will be missing. 
Based on statistical analysis, my recollection is that K stars should be
reasonable out to around 70 parsecs, G to 150.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:10:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Episodes of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F180fbvidc8CADAiKM10000792d@hotmail.com> from "Larsen E. Whipsnade" at Feb 23, 2002 09:01:47 AM
Message-ID: <200202282210.g1SMAC208473@localhost.uia.net>

> "Contest suggestion: What is the most evil thing you have done to your 
> players?"

I'm coming into this thread a bit late. Part of the reason for it
is that what I did (and what the player did in response) was so
evil that I was ashamed to admit it. But, with that out of the
way, here goes:

As a evil-GM, I have a penchant... or at least had, in the past...
a tendancy to kill off loved ones, particularly romantic interests.
In one campaign, I was running that old scenario (was it by
gamelords?) where the PCs' ship lands on an unsettled planet
in response to a distress signal, and upon investigation the PCs
discover that the signal is coming from a disabled and vacated
yacht owned by some rich noble. Turns out that the nobles on
board had some disagreement about who was the best hunter, so
they decided to settle the matter by hunting each other with
hypo darts. Only problem is that the game got a little out of
hand... well, okay... it got completely out of hand. Now
these nobles are busy hunting each other for real, using weapons
that kill or do worse than kill. The crew of the yacht are also
apparently involved, although they'd rather not be, and the yacht
can't take off because one of these nobles has stolen a small but
vital piece of equipment from the ship's engine room to make sure
it stays put. Soon after discovering this, the PCs' ship is
attacked with an explosive charge and is temporarily disabled,
the attacking noble in this case assuming that they're w/ the
enemy.

In any case, blood has already been spilled, and it seems likely
that more is on the way, so the PCs decide to side with the
stranded crew and help them go out and track down the noble
who decided to escalate the conflict in the first place. He's
also managed to get his hands on a "sunbeam laser rifle" which
has the tendency to vaporize flesh and organs, leaving only
charred bones wherever it scores a hit. Ouch!

During the hunt, the PCs get pinned down by a young lady with
a .22 who doesn't know who they are or what they want. What they
do find out is that she's a awfully good shot, but they manage to
subdue her. Turns out she's been hiding out from the bad guy, is
hungry and scared, and it isn't long before one of the PCs strikes
up a romantic interest with this woman. Well, by the climax of the
adventure, things are going so well between them that I decide
that it's time to end it. So this chick, trying to draw the noble's
fire so as to give the PCs a clear shot at him, gets shot w/ the
sunbeam laserrifle. Did I mention Ouch!? The gambit works, and the
PCs manage to take him out of the picture, but unfortunately it
also costs this woman her life.

Now, the player w/ the romantic interest in this NPC is rather irked
at me and rather crushed by the whole ordeal. So for a long while,
he mopes about, playing it quite well, but then he finally meets
somebody new... who I think I also killed. She was a spy, if memory
serves, so she sorta had it coming. This goes on for awhile until he
vows never to take up any more romantic interests, because I just
end up killing them. So I promise I'll mend my ways, because by now
the game has devolved into a soap, which I find far more interesting
than a hack-em-up.

So anyway, he fially meets the love of his life, and they get married
(in game, of course), and by this point he's the admiral of some fleet,
and there's a war going on, and he has no time for his lady, so I
figure (in my infinite evilness) that she's ripe for straying ways,
which is what she does. He ends up discovering it and deals with both
her and her new lover in a clandestine enterprise of immaculate planning
and execution, leaving way for more than reasonable doubt. Nonetheless,
he's the prime suspect in the ensuing investigation simply due to
motive, however, he hires a good lawyer, and the rest, as they say,
is OJ-history.

Well... that was thoroughly disgusting, wasn't it? Just don't say I
didn't warn you.  :-)

-Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:19:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <20020301075213.B27761@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 01, 2002 07:52:13 AM
Message-ID: <200202282219.g1SMJYF08641@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In short, I've been toying around with the concept of STL and have
> > been wondering if the bubble walls would present a natural barrier
> > to starships used to traveling at near-c velocities much in the same
> > way that a nebula might present a navigational hazard.
> 
> No, the 'walls' aren't anywhere near thick enough to pose a threat.
> Space is _big_ and _very_ empty.  Similarly, a nebula wouldn't really
> present a navigational hazard.  Star Trek's depiction of them is about
> 10^30 times too dense, and there are plenty of wavelengths in which
> even the thickest nebulae are rather transparent.

But keep in mind, these ships move at near-c. Hence, if they hit
anything of even microscopic size which they can't deflect or
get out of the way of, it's curtains. I'm thinking that in "normal
space", they'd probably be okay along well-mapped routes, however,
in a nebula... I dunno. It seems to me it could be a risk. I'm just
looking for some hard data (or at least some scientifically
rationalized predictions) to either substantiate or refute this idea
in terms of the actual physics involved.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:18:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:18:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] FarFuture web site
Message-ID: <3C7EACA1.10104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Can someone point me to where the reprints are listed on the FFE web 
pages at farfuture.net? I just spent five minutes clicking my way around 
that *really crappily* designed web site in circles and not finding them...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:30:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Episodes of Evil
In-Reply-To: <200202282210.g1SMAC208473@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <B8A3EF9C.290A1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/28/02 2:10 PM, jimv at jimv@uia.net wrote:

>> "Contest suggestion: What is the most evil thing you have done to your
>> players?"
> 
> I'm coming into this thread a bit late. Part of the reason for it
> is that what I did (and what the player did in response) was so
> evil that I was ashamed to admit it. But, with that out of the
> way, here goes:
> 
> As a evil-GM, I have a penchant... or at least had, in the past...
> a tendancy to kill off loved ones, particularly romantic interests.

[snip]

> 
> Well... that was thoroughly disgusting, wasn't it? Just don't say I
> didn't warn you.  :-)

Jim, I love it.  This is the kind of stuff I personally go in for.  Yes,
soap are so much more fun.  And lead to some great roll playing.  There's
nothing like running a player who's suffered some deep emotional hurt, too.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:23:42 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <0202281539030N.21273@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20228.142342.1n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On an aside... I've always been confused with the Hubble limit. How can 
> galaxies be receding at more than the speed of light? Surely this breaks 
> relativity?

Nope. They aren't *moving* FTL. They are being carried along by the
expansion of space itself. 

This is also how the alcubierre warp drive produces FTL without
violating relativity.

In effect it "destroys" space in front of the ship and "creates" space
behind it (not an accurate representation, but it gives you the basic
idea). 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:53:30 PST
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014918559.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20228.145330.5S1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>> 
>>      This may be more aimed toward our List's hard science boffins 
>> (specifically Mssr. Erickson and Little et. al. ) but what's your take on 
>> gamma ray bursts?  Would touching off one within the Imperium make the 
>> Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?
>
> Well, a GRB appears to be some relative of a supernova (probably with a
> directional beam), and a simple supernova would make the Maghiz look mild, so
> yes.
>>      The energy fountains thrown off by these things make a TL 15 spinal 
>> mount look like a pea shooter.
> Pah.  A normal solar flare makes a TL 15 spinal mount look like a pea 
> shooter.

Only if you are *really* close to the star.

A TL-15 particle beam would fry any space probe we've ever launched.
They shrug off all but the worst flares.

Energy *density* matters. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:19:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:19:32 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330104b8a43c7f641a@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <20228.141932.2J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 4:12 AM -0800 2/28/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  ...size of our universe? 
>>>
>>>  Infinite...
>>
>>Nope. It's finite, but very large.
>>
>>Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.
>
> And I think it expands at the speed of light from the big bang.  So 
> if the universe is 15 billions years old (is that right?) then it is 
> 15 billion light-years in radius?

No. Space expanded faster than light during the "inflationary era"
shortly after the big bang.

So the universe is *considerably* more than 15 bilion light years across.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:57:34 PST
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <F195QusPWMhiHaeldiB0000b483@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20228.145734.2E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      This may be more aimed toward our List's hard science boffins 
> (specifically Mssr. Erickson and Little et. al. ) but what's your take on 
> gamma ray bursts?  Would touching off one within the Imperium make the 
> Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?

I'm not really up on them, but what little I know says that a *lot*
depends on how directional they are. 

If they are omindirectional, you can kiss the TU goodbye.

If they are directional, it's still bad news for anybody in the path of
the burst.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 23:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:00:15 PST
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <200202282014.g1SKEv107813@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20228.150015.7F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> GT:Alien Races 1 covers
>>> a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
>>> resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
>>> mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
>>> combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
>>> complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
>>> produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
>>> preprogrammed machinery."

<snip>

> Well, the Sheol are supposedly massive... so I guess lack of brain
> capacity isn't going to be a problem. However, it still seems like magic
> to me. The way I'm reading it, a human could say to a Sheol, "create me
> some hummingbirds," hand them a picture, describe what they do, and
> the Sheol could then go to work. A few days or weeks later, out pop some
> makeshift hummingbirds. That's just bizarre. Even if it had the data
> on the hummingbird DNA, isn't there some sort of difficulty with trying
> to organize all those molecules into a long chain from scratch? And
> after forming the DNA chain, you still have the problems of forming a
> zygote and of gestation. Aren't there a plethora of hormones involved
> which tell the offspring's genes when to activate, when to deactivate,
> and so forth? I mean, the whole problem seems horribly complex. I can't
> fathom how it could be evolutionarily subsumed into a creature's
> subconsciousness and physical biology without a shred of technological
> aid. Or am I just being closed-minded about all this?

Well, you are making a *lot* of assumptions here. For one thing,
producing anything resembling a hummingbird oin the manner you describe
will produce just that. Something that *resembles* a hummingbird.

DNA doesn't have to be involved. Nor is the process apt to be much like
growing something from an egg or making a clone.

The big problem here is that you have to *design* these things from the
molecules on up. Which is *really* complicated. 

You have to decide what sort of structures are needed, then what sort
of molecules arranged in what way will *give* you those structures. 

Then create them in place.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:15:43 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <3C7E35F4.8040301@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20228.141543.5X9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> 
>>>...size of our universe?  
>>>
>>>Infinite...
>>>
>> 
>> Nope. It's finite, but very large. 
>> 
>> Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.
>
> Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
> literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist.  I look at it like a 
> balloon being heated and expanding, where from the point of view of any 
> given molecule floating around inside all your neighbors are moving away 
> at equal speed. (Doesn't it work like that?  Red shift and all?  My 
> astronomy is rusty heh) Hard to imagine the wall itself though, at least 
> for me.  Even harder to imagine what lies beyond, for real that is. 
> Game-wise, definitely fertile ground...

Well, it works like that if the universe is *closed* (ie net positive
curvature). If it is open (flat or negative curvature) then space is
still expanding, but there may be an edge somewhere. 

That edge *could* be where the matter density drops off to zero, and
still have space beyond, or maybe not. That's getting farther into
cosmology than I am equipped for. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:55:14 PST
Subject: [TML] Gamma Ray Bursts???
In-Reply-To: <001301c1c082$074fb430$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20228.145514.6k1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Larsen, "Darrian Maghurz(sp) look like a tempest in a tea cup?"
> Anthony, "A normal solar flare makes a TL 15 spinal mount look like a
> pea shooter."
>
> Yet if a recent Scientific American reported it correctly, and the
> scientists doing the work are correct, then the gaseous bubble in which
> our system and all its neighbors lay was created by a supernova 1
> million years ago. Our ancestors were already walking on earth so our
> atmosphere must protect us pretty well from these energies.
>
> The article maid no mention of what place in space this supernova may
> have been and I know too little about the bubble to place it anyplace
> except in an area near Sol in the TU.
>
> Supernovae occurring inside the TU must be survivable by nearby system
> with atmospheres like ours.

Not exactly.

As I recall anybody within 5-10 parsecs will have *serious* problems.
Even below a thick atmosphere.

And folks for quite a ways farther out had better have EMP hardened
electronics. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:20:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:20:55 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8a43c134a1d@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <20228.142055.4K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Does anyone know how far out we (meaning modern day Earth) have a 
> fairly accurate map of the stars?

Define "accurate".

We can't even *see* the most common type of star (red dwarfs) more than
a handful of parsecs away, even with the best telescopes.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:22:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:22:00 PST
Subject: [TML] Size of the universe?
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b8a43cf57fe1@[198.123.22.163]>
Message-ID: <20228.142200.6X3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 8:51 AM -0500 2/28/02, David Slater wrote:
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>In mail you write:
>>>
>>>>...size of our universe? 
>>>>Infinite...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope. It's finite, but very large.
>>>Has to be finite or the Big Bang wouldn't work.
>>
>>Being finite also has the interesting implication of there being a 
>>literal wall beyond which time/space do not exist.  I look at it 
>>like a balloon being heated and expanding, where from the point of 
>>view of any given molecule floating around inside all your neighbors 
>>are moving away at equal speed. (Doesn't it work like that?  Red 
>>shift and all?  My astronomy is rusty heh) Hard to imagine the wall 
>>itself though, at least for me.  Even harder to imagine what lies 
>>beyond, for real that is. Game-wise, definitely fertile ground...
>
> Actually, since the edge of the universe expands at the speed of 
> light, you can't reach it.  So its nature is untestable.

No. Relative to *us* it recedes *faster* than light. 

Relative to someone nearby it recedes at a quite moderate pace. Look up
the Hubble Constant. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 22:59:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:59:41 -0600
Subject: [TML] FarFuture web site
References: <3C7EACA1.10104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7EB65D.F38D140A@premier.net>



Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Can someone point me to where the reprints are listed on the FFE web
> pages at farfuture.net? I just spent five minutes clicking my way around
> that *really crappily* designed web site in circles and not finding them...

Try using this entry page (it's the old-style one):

http://www.farfuture.net/indexa.html

Click (logically enough) on Products in the sidebar menu.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 28 23:02:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:02:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] FarFuture web site
In-Reply-To: <3C7EACA1.10104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <3C7EACA1.10104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <200202281802480338.CE512AFD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


Start here
http://www.farfuture.net/a5501.html

and click the NEXT link at the top to move to the next entry

Hope that helps!

Hunter

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/28/2002 at 3:18 PM Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Can someone point me to where the reprints are listed on the FFE web 
>pages at farfuture.net? I just spent five minutes clicking my way around 
>that *really crappily* designed web site in circles and not finding them...
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:09:29 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Hard Times - some thoughts
Message-ID: <AB49071A-2BCE-11D6-B668-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

  "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com> wrote:

> One of Virus' primary appeals is also its most divisive aspect.  (People 
> who
> have a problem with the *science* of Virus but accept J-drives, Ancients,
> and antigrav amuse me.)  TNE offers a post apocolyptic view, where the 
> world
> ends with a bang.  Now, don't get me wrong.  Hardtimes is one of the best
> Traveller products, period.  Together with Arrival Vengance, they paint a
> compelling image of people living as a golden age goes right along to 
> hell.
> But TNE offers a "nuclear winter" scenario that provides its own set of
> issues and challenges.  Now, any Imperium wide apocolypse would need some
> kind of superweapon deployable by the assets remaining to the factions.
> Virus happens to fit the bill nicely (In some ways).

Thing is, if *I* had wanted to play post-apocalypse, I'd have played 
Twilight 2000. If I wanted to play post-apocalypse a couple of hundred 
years on, I'd have played 2300. Oh. I did.

<rant>

What I didn't want after the fantastic 'little apocalypses' of Hard Times,
  where the players really held candles against the flame *and could make a 
difference*. Hard Times held the hope of survival, preservation and 
rebuilding. The little victories meant a lot to players (and me as the GM)
. TNE had either grave/tomb robbing 'Star Vikings' or an inbred and 
claustrophobic Regency. Admittedly, there was some promise with the 
settings but it just felt that the baby had gone out with the bathwater. 
They didn't live up to the richness of Hard Times.

It's also funny - I found 'Milieu 0' far less restrictive even though I 
knew the Imperial history. At least you knew where the setting was going. 
Unlike TNE.

</rant>

All IMNSHO, YMMV etc etc etc. TNE was never my favourite Traveller edition 
(hey, I bought it all, and some of it is good, but it didn't connect on an 
emotional level with me).

Dom


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:14:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:14:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Specific Product Disucssion (Wargame)
Message-ID: <4DE564A4-2BCF-11D6-B668-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

> One option would be Doug Berry's _At Close Quarters_, published by
> BITS.  Not only is ACQ a fairly realistic combat system (written by a
> combat-veteran infantryman), it also has conversion rules (the BITS Task
> System) for all editions of Traveller that have been published so far.
> While T20 is not covered, as it has not yet been published, I suspect
> that the BITS Task System will eventually be expanded to cover T20, thus
> making ACQ a truly universal Traveller combat system.

;-) It covers the in print and OOP editions at the moment ;-)

I think it's a reasonable assumption that we will modify the Task system 
to include T20. It's already got T4.1 ;-)

Dom

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 27 22:18:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:18:39 +0000
Subject: [TML] Specific Product Disucssion (Wargame)
Message-ID: <F374B71C-2BCF-11D6-B668-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> It is however not totally generic - the way APs are converted to skill
> bonuses is fitted to T4's task system and resists being moved to
> CT/MT's 2d6 range. It probably wouldn't be too hard to move to TNE's or
> a d20 game like T20 though.

Actually, it should bolt onto CT and MT far easier as the system is far 
closer to T4 than TNE.

Dom
---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:28:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:28:37 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201074713.006b8408@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C5D10D5.5030003@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

>At 12:27 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:
>
>>No disrespect meant for the man -- I salute him for several things things he 
>>accomplished and respect him -- but Roddenberry got a little preachy on 
>>certain topics, especially later in his life. 
>>
>
>Really.  It is interesting that TNG got notably better after his death.
>Human conflict was allowed to emerge on the Enterprise.  
>
And Wesley got quietly shuffled out of the series...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:01:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:01:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: CT-CharGen.xls
References: <20020131153300.67351.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1aab3$a00f26e0$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

Thanks much Paul.

I haven't run it as many times as the others, and probably won't. It seems
to work fine for me. I'll let the others spec it out and make comments as
they are probably a way lot better than me.
I was wondering if the program would work easily as well if the data was
added for the other character types. If so, and you would like/need help
adding them to the program, I would be happy to try and help.

Jim C

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Walker" <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: CT-CharGen.xls


> Well, that's what I get for being impulsive.  The
> previous URL was for the actual file.  Here is a
> download page that should make it easier to get to.
>
> www.pslccl.com/walker/scifi/traveller/download/download.htm
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
> http://auctions.yahoo.com
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:14:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:14:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Alien
Message-ID: <20020131.161418.-162127.1.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:24:11 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> _Alien_ scared the hell out of me.  Wonderful horror film.

Ditto

> _Aliens_ rocked!  Nice to see a movie that got troopers right. 
> It had a fairly good story, and any movie were Paul Reiser
> gets his face chewed off by a nine foot tall killing machine
> is alright with me.

Ditto, and I still hate Paul R.

> _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work 
> overly well.

Seemed ok as far as the prisoners went, but the dog/alien super graphics
were over done.

> _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways... as a gamer movie
> it was pretty good.

Really good up to when Riply fell through the grate, then it sucked
royal. Seemed like the writers lost the script and had to higher
non-English speaking people off the street to write the ending in
English.

Disclaimer:
The above statement in no way implies prejudice to non English speaking
people, minorities, homeless, or anyone in particular.  Please accept the
above in jest, as intended, thank you.

You may drop your stones now.


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:39:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Request for information
References: <200201310826.g0V8QaD16825@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c1aabb$e7443de0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry 
> 3.  Any canonical adventures/supplements/articles/bits of information
> concerning the Trojan Reach *except* for Adventure 4: Leviathan?

Regency Sourcebook had some subsector maps.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:41:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:41:57 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
References: <200201310826.g0V8QaD16825@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c1aabb$e7ec16a0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: "Frank Pitt"
> This is what happened in Fiji during Rambouka's first coup.

Grrr...

That's Rabuka.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:56:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:56:14 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
References: <200201312030.g0VKUOH18863@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c1aabb$e88ac7a0$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Anthony Jackson
> Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
> member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often
> control upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can
> pretty much tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.

Other hi-pop worlds in a subsector can be a serious problem, if they choose.
Fortunately, many subsectors, like Regina, have their four Kinunirs...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:00:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:00:01 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (actually long)
References: <200201310214.g0V2EkB02424@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c1aabb$e932a060$424d8a90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   East Germany had revolts back in the `50's, IIRC, and not minor ones
> either.

These led to one of Brecht's best jokes.

The government issued a statement expressing their diappointment with the
people for the revolts.  Brecht commented that they should therefore dismiss
the people and elect a new one.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ine Givar (was:Nobles (long))
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>
>On 29 Jan 2002, at 13:30, Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I think.  Where can I find more detail one the Ine Givar, anyway?
>
>I wrote an article (non-canon) about them which was published in Pyramid
>in 1999, it should be in the archives there and JTAS

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Ine Givar means something like
"danger within" or "internal danger" in Dutch or Afrikaans.  The spelling is
a little different, too, like gevaar instead of givar.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Law level codes (was nobles etc)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>Sorry to quote myself, btu this is something I've wondered about a couple
of times. How useful
>are the guidelines about law levels in Traveller? It seems that places
where weapons are
>controlled but are otherwise fairly liberal get a bad press. Would anyone
say that Britain is on >the cusp of extreme law just because people aren't
allowed to wander about with guns? Seems a
>little unfair.
>
>I'm aware that the guide was written by (and no offense meant here)
Americans who see carrying
>weapons as a constiutional right which seems to have skewed in the
direction of weapons
>restrictions.
>
>Has anyone thought of an alternative index for measuring law level (say
complexity of
>legislature and need for lawyers to intrpret laws, police freedoms, travel
restrictions on
>citizens)

It's my understanding from the little black books that law level referred to
the general level of governmental intrusion into people's lives and the
general level of corruption.  Specifics about weapons were included because
the designers assumed that most players' foremost concern would be what
weapons their characters could carry.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>Naturally, it follows that the rich and powerful would want private
vehicles as well.
>It went from there. It goes without saying that all the vehicles are
electric and
>non-polluting.

Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>And 'Mongrels of Europe founding the New World' is just so much hogwash.
>The men who founded the US, for example, were almost exclusively landed
>gentry.

'Mongrels of Europe founding the New World' is indeed hogwash, but so is the
statement, "The men who founded the US, for example, were almost exclusively
landed gentry," unless "founded" is limited to mean, "organized the
rebellion, drafted the Constitution and other documents, and formed the
first governments."  If "founded" includes fighting for independence from
Great Britain, then all classes were heavily involved.

Ob Traveller, member states have a much greater level of sovereignty than
colonies, and, in my Traveller universe, the function of the Ministry of
Colonization is to facilitate the development of worlds with valuable
resources, and to monitor their governance until they become member states.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Britain
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:17:21PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>
>> Bear in mind that (according to the purely weapons based rules of
>> the MT referee's manual) Britain (even before 11/09/01) is between
>> law 8 and 9.  Weapons are prohibited even in the home and blades are
>> limited to under 3".  Have you ever been here?  It's not that bad
>> really.
>
>I dunno--I felt somewhat naked without my pocketknife.

3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
>
>[Note to those who want a real rip-roaring ugly-ass debate: The Zhos may be
>the first society in human history to actually know when a zygote/fetus
>becomes aware of it's own existence.]

"I suppose we _could_ know if the fetus started sending telepathic signals.
Of course, no telepath would ever probe the fetus' brain, not just out of
respect for its privacy, but out of concern for its well being.  This leaves
us with our own, pre-psionic, laws on abortion, which you can look up at
your leisure."

Shterbifriashav, Ambassador to the Court of the Duke of Regina, in a
conversation with a TNS reporter, ca. 1105

--Glenn




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:59:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIACCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>
>We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the
interaction
>between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
>nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of just what the
>subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system defense fleet
>would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).

I should pop over sometime.  This is one of my favorite subjects.

>Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
>member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often
control
>upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can pretty
much
>tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

I think the Imperium will let a world slide for a long while, using various
diplomatic approaches and sanctions.  If a high official like the duke
finally concludes that the world is just not ever going fulfill its
obligations, the Imperium will warn the world that failure to comply with
whatever by some date shall be deemed an act of insurrection.  If the world
does not comply by that date, the Imperial Navy will be brought in to make
an example of it.

Making an example probably would not involve massive destruction of the
world, its population, or its infrastructure.  It could be as simple as
interdiction.

In an invasion, any military forces in revolt will be destroyed or captured
and interned.  The local leadership, and, if necessary, the governmental
structure itself, will be replaced.  The Imperium may govern directly for a
time if required, first through the navy and then through creation of a
marquis.

The total process -- from first default on taxes to the actual appearance of
the navy -- could take decades.  My Imperium has not been in a hurry in a
very, very, long time.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>
>This just points out that the origional series and TNG were two entirely
>different animals. In the origional series, the crew went to starbases to
>spend their "pay".  In TNG the crew had never heard of money. I have a
>theory that they really worked for hours of credit in the holodeck...

"Hey, this shift's over; wanna go see what's happening in the wardroom?"

"No, thanks.  I gotta put in a few hours of overtime working on these plasma
couplings."

"The chief those don't need to be completed today. Come on, let's get a
beer."

"No, really, I need the O.T.  If I just put in six more hours this period,
I'll qualify for the next level on the holodeck program I'm running."

"What's that?  Girls of the Klingon Empire?"

"No, man, it's really sophisticated and historical stuff, from Earth before
the Eugenics Wars.  I'm at Hugh Hefner level three, and I can go to the
Larry Flynt level if I just stay on these plasma couplings for two more
nights."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 00:58:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:58:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: How brutal is the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: How brutal is the Imperium ( was: Nobles (actually long))
>
>This brings up an interesting (and Traveller related) question.  How brutal
>is the Imperium.  How far will it go to end an uprising, particularly a
>popular one.  What will it do to keep a world in the Imperial fold? Comment
>on how you handle it IYTU.

Like everything, it depends.  The less important the world and the less
danger of contagion perceived by the Imperium, the less the Imperium will
do.  It seems that worlds in the interior would be unlikely to seek disunion
in any event.  Worlds near the border might have a chance to survive as
independent states, and there might be a danger that one or two successful
breakaways would convince an entire subsector to become independent.  That's
what the Ine Givar are hoping to achieve with Efate and maybe a few other
worlds in the early 1100s.  Splitting off the Jewell cluster and the
Efate-Regina axis would give them an excellent base to develop their
society.  It would also serve the Zhodani by pushing the Imperial border
away.

That doesn't actually propose an answer to your question.  I think on the
extreme end, the Imperium will do whatever its people on the scene
(including the nobility) think necessary.  "My liege, we are very sorry to
report that we had to destroy those worlds in order to save them."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:14:27 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1aabd$ddcfab80$7cb1fea9@hppav>


> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:10:02 -0500
> From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Son of MT Ship Design question

<snip>

> OK, now I see what's being debated, and realize that, in fact, yes I did
> sidestep the issue nicely in my earlier post.  So does that "Max. CP
Input"
> line mean max. input before multiplying or max. CP including multiplier?
> Good damn question and as far as I can tell the rules are entirely
ambiguous
> on the matter.  I don't supposed DGP ever provided a clarification in
their
> 'Traveller Q&A' column?

I don't know. Not that I saw (though I didn't follow the magazines so I
wouldn't have seen it)

<snip>

> Where I got sidetracked and seem to disagree (at least semantically
> and/or theoretically) with both of you is regarding the 'greatest possible
> cost for a TL 15 ship.'  There IS no greatest possible cost for a ship,
>  it's just the greatest possible cost that can be handled by your
computer.
>  If your ship costs over MCr 666,666.666... then you just need to install
> another parallel computer to handle the extra required CPs (or, if you're
> feeling perverse, install a whole big mess of non-linked control panels).

To be fair I'm not actually sure that General Turokan is arguing that there
is
a firm maximum cost. I am because I am assuming that you get to use one
and only one computer at  a time. This is however a holdover from the CT
rules and not something that is explicitly stated in MT.  The closest I find
is
a statement that, "Spacecraft should have three computers; two are safety
backups." (MT Referee's Manual page 81) There is however no treatment
in the rules for or against the idea of computers working in parallel to
make
up any deficit in CPs. So YMMV

> So, for your theoretical 80,000,000 MCr TL 15 ship, by my interpretation
> of the rules you'd use 120 parallel Model/9 computers and 100,000,000 CP
> worth of control panel components, as opposed to your 1 Model/9
> computer and 100M CP worth of controls, or the General's apparent
> 'Can't Do It!' interpretation.  Am I understanding everything correctly
now?

I think so.

David Shayne


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:23:53 -0700
Subject: [TML] re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:13:50PM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020131182353.A14691@4dv.net>

On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:13:50PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
> Traveller's lack of instantaneous communication would make for
> better Star Trek type adventures.

Traveller's _everything_ would make for better Star Trek type
adventures...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, if nature abhors a vacuum, she must really have it in for your
brain.                                           --Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:21:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:21:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <00b401c1aabb$e88ac7a0$424d8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> 
> Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
> Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
> governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
> governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.

That's a viable answer, but leads to some problems:

1)  Not all governments are headed by hereditary nobles; for extreme examples,
the solomani rim has 3 hi-pop participatory democracies and 4 hi-pop
representative democracies).  Given that the subsector duke is a hereditary
position, while the head of government may not be, what happens when the
subsector duke and the head of government clash?

2)  What happens when the interests of the Imperium and the interests of a
single Hi-pop world conflict?  Even if it's a single leader, juggling hats can
be a problem.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:28:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:28:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
In-Reply-To: <003701c1aaa6$fc6bc9a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B87F2F45.22A8B%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: "daumen@mindspring.com" <rdaumen@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:31:11 -0500
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a

>
> Civil Law: The group of laws which deal with suing the pants off your
> fellow countryman. The higher this level, the bigger the punitive damages
> you can claim. Multiply this rating by 1d3 to determine the % tax taken by
> the government in such lawsuits. Lawyers may take a similar amount as
> their fee in successful cases. Ludicrous lawsuits allow for penalties
> other than financial, and/or total unlimited financial destruction, in
> case you were wondering.

Can citizens obtain legal insurance?

>
> 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
>     and enforced only by private means.

   1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
   2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.

> 3 - Private contracts enforceable by government agencies.
> 4 - Restitutive lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 5 - Restitutive lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
> 7 - Punitive lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 8 - Punitive lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.

   9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
 10 - Punitive strict liability.

> 11 - Ludicrous lawsuits for breach of contract.
> 12 - Ludicrous lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
>      Punitive lawsuits for material loss caused by negligence.
>      This is a lawyer's paradise, and an amber zone.
>
I really like the restitutive/punitive/ludricous steps.

Societies with 7+ will have trouble finding off-world trading parties, and
their overall trade should be below average.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:30:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:30:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B2E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <B87F2FB3.22A91%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 1/31/02 8:25 AM, DeGraff, Jesse at Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com wrote:

> Not that I know of, which I why I asked you to begin with ;)  Anyone else?
> 

I think the 1 mile size came from someone who pick one mile as an arbitrary
figure to calculate albedo.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:40:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:40:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHPCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B87F31FD.22A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 1/31/02 4:58 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
> pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
> plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 

Well, since you live in the highport too...

And you can still get drunk, override the automatics, and careen through the
streets running down pedestrians.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:01:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020131.170221.-146441.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C59F6F1.22AFA49D@sympatico.ca>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > CWO Ripley died (lept into a vat of molten metal while giving birth
> > to a Queen Alien) but was cloned for the fourth movie.
>
> I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, and I

SNIP

Well you always use this title:  Alien 3.1 - We Apologize for the previous
transmission

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 01:43:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:43:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet? Can its ground forces beat the
combined Unified Armies of the Sector? Can it beat the combined fleets of
the Domain? How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy? Can
it survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)

Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by a
powerful fleet.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:25:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012530345.2754.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet?

Probably not.  OTOH, needing to pull together the sector fleet to deal with a
tax dispute with a single world has its own problems; you're talking a major
mobilization, which is enormously expensive and may not be practical due to the
existence of other threats.

> Can its ground forces beat
> the combined Unified Armies of the Sector?
The combined jump-capable unified armies?  Quite possibly.

> How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  It
will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

> Can it survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)
Almost certainly.  Megacorps aren't positioned to remove their local assets
(withdrawing means forfeiting) and other effects of withdrawal are covered by
trade interdiction.
> 
> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
> say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
> let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by
> a powerful fleet.

Which required the combined military forces an entire domain to take out, and
basically crippled the Imperial fleet, allowing the remainder of the
Confederation to consolidate itself into a new government.

I'm not sure all of this is a huge problem either, but that wasn't really the
question I was asking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 02:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:21:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> >because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, and I
> >personally refuse to admit (to myself, at least) that the monstrosity
> >which called itself Alienzzzz (or whatever) even existed...
>
> _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
>
This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should stick to
prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

> _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...

As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:05:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:05:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] aging
Message-ID: <000001c1aacd$5729cf60$2f7de40c@loki>

When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
system.

I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
Fair!"
I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.

I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:17:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
Message-ID: <20020131.222114.-260707.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> > _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
> >
> This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should 
> stick to prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

Umm... I don't think Gibson's script was used for Alien^3.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> > > CWO Ripley died (lept into a vat of molten metal while giving birth
> > > to a Queen Alien) but was cloned for the fourth movie.
> >
> > I refuse to admit that there is a 4th movie w/ Ripley... primarily
> > because that would involve admitting that there was a 3rd movie, 
> 
> SNIP
> 
> Well you always use this title:  Alien 3.1 - We Apologize for the 
> previous transmission

Ah, but then I still have the problem that A4 has to admit that A3
exists, continuity-wise. 

A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
trauma like that since watching the original American release of
Highlander 2.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224743.00bca1a0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:12:58, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>I've advocated a sunset clause be appended to all laws so that they expire 
>after a given time, and must be reenacted.

My personal suggestion on this is that the number of laws allowed to be in 
effect at a given time be limited.  The limit ought to be relatively small, 
and very difficult or impossible to change.  This way, whenever the 
legislature decides that a new law is needed, they'll have to repeal an 
existing law first.  This keeps the number of useless laws under control, 
while ensuring that the legislature can keep themselves and the voters 
amused by chasing whatever silly idea is currently in vogue (after first 
repealing the previous silly idea).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was: T5)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224719.00bcad80@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:17:12, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>I was annoyed with QSDS for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

Good point - it would be nice to be able to design small craft.  QSDS (like 
the original Book 2) doesn't do this.  The main reason is that adding small 
craft would expand the tables greatly.  Small craft hulls would require 
additional maneuver drive and power plant options at a minimum.  The 
results would probably be less than satisfactory, but when (if?) I redesign 
QSDS to FF&S2, I can take another look at the problem.

>Temptation to throw out thruster plates entirely, and invent a volume-based
>drive.  Simplifies High Guard conversions greatly.

That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S.  Instead, I 
made the assumption that starships would need 10kN thrust per cubic meter, 
and then ensured (by careful selection of available components) that it was 
unlikely for a ship to mass significantly more than this.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>

On  Tue 29 Jan 2002 00:1:23, "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com> asked:
>What effect does this have on te Scout Service Travel Zones?

The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  Thus, 
the travel zones (are supposed to) reflect actual conditions, not an 
external requirement enforced by the Imperium.

>Are all open conflicts Amber/Red zoned?

No.  The Travellers' Aid Society posts zone classifications based on their 
assessment of the relative danger to travellers.  This is both somewhat 
subjective and takes time; thus a world with a conflict may not be posted 
as an amber or red zone immediately.

TAS Red Zones correspond to worlds that are either extremely dangerous, or 
are interdicted (being shot at by the Imperial Navy fits the TAS definition 
of 'extremely dangerous').  Worlds may be interdicted by either the Navy or 
the Scouts.  While all interdicted worlds are red zones, not all red zones 
are interdicted worlds - other highly dangerous conditions may warrant the 
classification.

TAS Amber Zones correspond to advisory areas - travellers should be on 
their guard, as situations may be dangerous.  Active conflicts (war) or 
other dangerous situations may (or may not) warrant this classification.  A 
war zone that does not significantly impact noncombatants may not be 
classified as Amber.

>I ask becasue I'm running MT and I've got a mercenry company setting up on 
>Dinom, are they limited to going and fighting (openly) in places that have 
>travel zones or can I chuck a small war anywhere I want?

You can chuck a small war anywhere you want.  If you start interfering with 
interstellar commerce, killing lots of civilians, or completely wrecking 
the infrastructure, you may acquire Imperial entanglements in the process.

On the other hand, a mercenary company might have a contract that specifies 
that hostilities be limited to certain areas, regions, or specific targets 
so as to avoid a TAS Amber Zone classification.  A mercenary contract may 
also have a bonus clause that provides a monetary bonus if the mercs manage 
to fulfill their mission without causing a TAS travel restriction to be 
placed on the world.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:48:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224800.00bcc2c0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.

OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?

Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as seperate 
>projects is a mistake.

I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS - 
it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224701.00bb8e80@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:39, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I used to design a handful of ships c. 1996, decided I didn't like the 
>'feel' of it, and have only looked back once or twice since.

Actually, that's fair enough.  My question was prompted by a number of 
things, not the least of which is that TMLers have expressed at least a 
little interest in a new (and fully FF&S2 compatible) version of QSDS.  It 
has occurred to me that Marc Miller will need a ship design system for 
T5.  A revised version of QSDS might just fill the bill, if I can get it to 
be relatively clean, smooth, and easy enough to use.

>My main memory of disaffection was that QSDS provided (and, thus, by 
>extension, required me to account for and keep track of) a level of 
>detailed information that seemed both unnecessary and undesirable for a 
>simple 'close enough' system

OK.  I can certainly see a case for rounding all values to (say) three 
significant figures.  It would also help to use a consistent column 
ordering (so that volume, power, cost, etc. are all listed in the same 
order in all tables).

The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS (like 
FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret) per 
100 dtons of displacement.  Instead, surface area is used to provide a 
tradeoff between various components - sensors, weapons, and power plants 
all require surface area.  For many designs (particularly civilian ships) 
this will not be an issue.  But, for the two extremes (very large ships and 
small craft) it is quite possible to run out of space.

The approach I took in QSDS was to track surface area.  The opposite 
approach would be the solution I took for mass (weight).  Rather than track 
it explicitly, the components available in QSDS are selected such that you 
cannot build a ship that is too massive for it's drives.  This solution is 
probably possible (but more difficult) for surface area as well.  It is 
likely to involve other odd exceptions, such as components that are 
incompatible with certain hulls - not because they don't fit, but because 
certain combinations of components and hulls might lead to a design that 
runs out of surface area.

>I think there should be a higher level of abstraction -- actual nuts and 
>bolts detail of the construction and components isn't necessary, just a 
>'close enough' approximation of ships' sizes, capabilities, and costs.

That's certainly another possibility.  This may be just the gearhead in me, 
but I prefer a design system that works in "real" units (such as dtons and 
Mw) rather than "spaces" and "energy points".

>My desired level 'compatability' from the simple-to-complex design systems 
>is that ships designed under each should have roughly equivalent (within 
>15% or so) sizes, capabilities, and costs -- not that we should be able to 
>freely interchange ships and components from one to the other.

Fair enough; my goal with QSDS was to get within 10%.  I had a secondary 
goal, which was to make it possible for people who had FF&S to design 
components to add to their own ships, without having to jump through a lot 
of hoops.  I felt this was important, since QSDS had an extremely limited 
selection of components.

>I'll let you know what I come up with (if you're still interested).

Sure!  I don't know if I will get time and motivation to fully revise QSDS, 
but it is looking that way right now - particularly if there is a chance 
that people will be willing and able to use it.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:47:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone 
>who shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of 
>course, I have friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a 
>stout.)

Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already 
had BayCon 2002?).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 03:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:46:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020201034609.45831.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!FIEND!!You uttered the Forbidden
Phrase!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

    MACessna[gasping forAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....]
  >>
--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I
> hadn't suffered psychic
> trauma like that since watching the original
> American release of
> Highlander 2.
> 
> 
> Perry


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 04:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:44:03 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: FSotSI
Message-ID: <17d.2f603df.298b7713@aol.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:

>It is considered broken in the sense that the ships are less than
>optimal designs that may not actually have been constructed using the
>vehicle design rules. (not sure on this last part as I haven't tried
>reverse engineering all of them. The ones I did try didn't seem to 
>come out right.)

 Editing was a big problem with this one. The crew numbers are whacked (none 
of the ships has a useful number of Cold Watch, Gunnery and Flight crew 
numbers are *always* the same), the CP limits were, IIRC, ignored, and, 
frankly, with no picture and not even a name, most of the ships are just not 
worth looking at.  The fleets discussion is a near-repeat from the Rebellion 
Sourcebook (and actually less helpful in some ways).

 While its conceptual ancestor (Supplement 9: Fighting Ships) was hardly 
error-free, it did include a picture and a bit of color text for almost every 
design, and everything had a *name*. As such, it added to the setting whether 
you ever used the ships in a fight or not. FSotSI, by comparison, lacked even 
that...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 04:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:57:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1aba6$109c8ae0$b16f510c@0tk0e>

>The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS (like
>FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret)
per
>100 dtons of displacement.  Instead, surface area is used to provide a
>tradeoff between various components - sensors, weapons, and power plants
>all require surface area.  For many designs (particularly civilian ships)
>this will not be an issue.  But, for the two extremes (very large ships
and
>small craft) it is quite possible to run out of space.

Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how many
you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints. power plants might
be tracked in some different way (with a table giving the maximum hull size
a given power plant can fit in? or the maximum power plant a given hull can
take?) or the same way.

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:22:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:22:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trojan Reach
Message-ID: <F134Q5of3tu3i0OTn8Q000254d4@hotmail.com>

Doug

I have a couple of references for the Trojan Reach other than Leviathan. One 
was in the second-last issue of Travellers' Digest (no 21?) -- an adventure 
set on one of the planets near the Imperial frontier. No doubt others can 
help you with this one.

Another was in the magazine "Australian Realms" -- a commando assault 
mission on a jungle planet in the Florian League. I can make a photocopy of 
it -- email me directly if you'd like one posted.

The Baraccai Technum (sp?) is based in Trojan Reach, isn't it...oh wait, 
wasn't that from Leviathan...?

MB

------------------------------Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:40:36 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>Subject: Request for 
information
Hey folks, need to pick your brains a little..  mmm.. brains...
1.  Is there a canonical listing for the names of subsectors of the Trojan
Reach Sector?  I have them for A, B, C, D, F, and G.
2.  _Atlas of the Imperium_ shows two alligience codes besides the
Imperium, Belgardian Sojorn, and the Aslan, fl and gl.
http://www.utzig.com/traveller/allegiance_codes.htm identifies these as the
Florian League and the Ginlenchy Concordance.  Any hard information?
3.  Any canonical adventures/supplements/articles/bits of information
concerning the Trojan Reach *except* for Adventure 4: Leviathan?Thanks.- --

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:27:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:27:50 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <182.2fd07aa.298b8156@aol.com>

>  Gold Pressed Latinum seems to be an international currency used outside
>  the Federation.  On several occassions, both Picard and Riker in TNG
>  remark that their society has no use for money.

No disrespect meant for the man -- I salute him for several things things he 
accomplished and respect him -- but Roddenberry got a little preachy on 
certain topics, especially later in his life. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:31:50 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F196QTYkWSzsVA2aiVk0001b566@hotmail.com>

Anthony

The quick answer runs like this: high-population worlds have more to gain 
from Imperial membership than from independence. In a word: trade. Your 
high-population world *could* tell the Navy to take a flying leap.

Their next visitor is a corsair fleet. And the next. Merchants take their 
business somewhere less risky. Trade collapses, economy fails, planetary 
government changes to one in favour of rejoining the Imperium.

MB

------------------------------Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:19:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Question : power of the Imperium
We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the 
interaction
between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of just what the
subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system defense fleet
would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).
Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often 
control
upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can pretty much
tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).
Given the noninterventionist rules of the Imperium (and the utter lack of
consistency in sub-Imperial government), I'm inclined to view the Imperial
government as rather weak, with power concentrated more in the hands of
individual worlds than in the hands of the Imperium; think of the Imperium 
as
NATO plus the EU (or the WTO).  OTOH, the feel of the game doesn't suggest 
that
the Imperium is all that weak (though this may be because most Traveller 
games
don't occur on major worlds; the Imperium can fail to have much control over
Hi-pop worlds and still pretty thoroughly intimidate lower population 
worlds).

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:36:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:36:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
Message-ID: <fd.13184d82.298b8365@aol.com>

> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
>  nobles?

And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are often 
not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.

Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are 
clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic 

"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the pins 
fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trent Smith)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:59:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question (long and dry, alas)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001701c1aae5$c0d37200$107379a5@trentfs>

 generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
<a big example design that involved choosing which computer to install based
on its 'Maximum CP Input' entry>

This time yesterday I would've agreed that this example was correct.  Today
(after having spent the last hour or so digging through books and doing
calculations) I'm pretty sure it's not.

The rules themselves give no clear definition of what "Maximum CP Input"
means -- in fact, it's never mentioned or explained anywhere except that one
table.  Truly an enigma (or at least an editorial flub).

Looking through the entire run of DGP's 'Traveller Q&A' (TD9-MTJ4) for
clarification didn't help much.  The two possibly significant mentions were:

1) [in answer to question roughly "how do CP work?"] "Think of the things
you install on your craft as 'hungry' for control point food.  The control
panels, multiplied by the computer, provide control point food to the
craft -- they "feed" the craft, which is hungry for control points. If the
control panel output times the computer multiplier does not totally satisfy
the control point hunger of the craft, the craft will not work right -- it
is out of control.
  "The input CP is the maximum control panel input the computer can handle.
If you try to connect too many control panel CPs to the input side of the
computer, you will overload it and burn it out" (Joe Fugate, "Q&A," MTJ4, p.
81).

This supposed 'explanation' is frustratingly ambiguous, but tends (at least
IMO) to lend vague support to the notion that it's a 'before multiplication'
maximum. YMMV.

2) "The _Regal_ needs nearly 6 million control points in control panels and
computer equipment.  The best computer we can install is a tech 14 model
8/fib, which multiplies the CP input from our control panels by 95.  To see
how much CP input into the computer we need in order to get 5,701,044.4
control points out, we can divide the 5,701,044.4 by the computer's
multiplier of 95, giving us 6,011 CP needed as input."(Joe Fugate, "A
MegaTraveller Starship Design Example," TD13, pp. 44)

The "maximum CP input" figure is conspicuous in its absence from this
example.  While, alas, it wouldn't affect the calculation either way (the
max. CP input for a model 8/fib is 50 million), it may be telling that the
max. CP input for a model 7/fib is 5 million -- less than the ship's
required 5.7M.  By the Turokan method, this (TL 14) ship's only choices for
computer would be model 8 or 8/fib -- anything less wouldn't have the
capacity to handle the ship's CP load.  If this had been a crucial
consideration in the example ship's design, I'd think Joe Fugate would have
at least bothered to mention it.  Once again IMO this tends to vaguely
support the 'before multiplication' interpretation.

Neither of these are too convincing, but what was (at least for me) was the
results of a couple of quick back-calculations on standard designs from the
Imperial Encyclopedia, specifically the Type R subsidized merchant and the
Gig.  Both are pricy high tech designs with shoddy computers installed (Type
R: TL 15, MCr 67.5, computer 1/bis; Gig: TL 14, MCr 13.78, computer 0).

Computer 0 has a CP multiplier of 5 and a mx. CP input of 500.  The Gig has
a CP requirement of (roughly) 1900.  Per the IE writeup it has installed a
headsup display and 282 'holodynamic links' (aside: in yet another apparent
editorial gaffe, ALL the standard ships have 'holodynamic links' even though
such a thing doesn't exist -- there's 'dynamic link' and 'holographic link'
but no 'holodynamic').  Assuming holodynamic to be dynamic we get an
installed CP total of 332, multiplied by the computer = 1660, which is
probably about right.

Computer 1/bis has a CP multiplier of 15 and a max. CP input of 7500.  The
Type R has a CP requirement of approx. 10,000.  Per IE it has headsup x 3
and holodynamic x 403 -- total CP 553, multiplied = 8295, again probably
about right.

Note that in both of these cases, the required CP of the craft greatly
exceed the 'max CP input' of the computers, but the number of (unmultiplied)
CP from installed control panels fall within it.  While this doesn't settle
the issue 100% (it's more common that not for published designs to be at
least slightly broken, and not uncommon at all for them to be REALLY
broken), it does lend pretty strong evidence to the notion that the 'max CP
input' entry is supposed to apply to CP from installed control panels BEFORE
they are multiplied by the computer. QED.

So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs are broken and
need to be redone?  No, it just means that a lot of them probably could've
gotten away with smaller computers than he installed.  Not that installing
the cheapest or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But it does
allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better in the end.

Trent



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:49:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <f2.1609ac74.298b8682@aol.com>

A: Anarchy is great!
B: Anarchy sucks!
A: Does not!
B: Does too!

etc.

Can we agree to disagree on this one (and take it to the chat list)? These 
discussions are word for word _identical_ to ones I used to have to listen to 
30 years ago, and I think neither side is going to convince the other. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 05:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:58:33 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F188PeWnEUDS6cRXLWU0001031c@hotmail.com>

The Imperial Navy redzoning/interdiction is the real question, IMO, and 
'serious effects' (in an economic sense) could happen very quickly. A market 
collapse could happen in hours, with decline in employment and investment 
happening very soon after.

Typical timeframe in 20th C. economic sanctions is roughly 18 months for 
real hardship to begin biting, but mass sackings and flight of capital could 
begin with the market collapse. Anyone with money and mobility goes 
elsewhere, or into the illicit/black economy.

Economic sanctions are a last resort, anyway -- the Imperium can employ much 
cheaper and more subtle (ie covert) means of ensuring the loyalty of a 
high-population world.

By last resort, I mean the last resort *before* military action. All the 
foregoing discussion of fleet actions, marine assault etc. would only come 
when everything else has failed.

***************
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Question : power of the ImperiumTerry Carlino writes:

>How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  
It
will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:09:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>

> > _Alien_ scared the hell out of me.  Wonderful horror film.
>  
>  Ditto

I'll agree with this. Nice flick.

>  > _Aliens_ rocked!  Nice to see a movie that got troopers right. 
>  > It had a fairly good story, and any movie were Paul Reiser
>  > gets his face chewed off by a nine foot tall killing machine
>  > is alright with me.

Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little 
too fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity to 
leave _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN 
THE FLIPPING RAMP. Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to 
accomplish the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them 
up to their own devices."

Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 
2300 A.D.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:11:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:11:55 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
Message-ID: <157.8322666.298b8bab@aol.com>

> 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
>  that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.

Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from butterflies?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:16:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:16:42 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aging
Message-ID: <152.82be1e0.298b8cca@aol.com>

> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>  Fair!"
>  I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>  more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>  jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab

I suspect we (GDW) would probably change a few things if we were doing it 
using the wisdom accumulated by being over 50 . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 06:58:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:58:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <f2.1609ac74.298b8682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>



I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
made up a symbol?

Tim Reynolds
With more gasoline 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 07:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 02:30:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: aging
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> Subject: aging
> 
> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"
> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
> 
> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
> 

	The same issue was discussed on the T20 playtest boards. The answer was
Marc said it was a game balance issue. Basically, he wanted to ensure
characters were still young enough to play PCs by the time they mustered
out... 

	Note: You can serve more than 6 terms because of the mandatory
reenlistment.

	So if you are really excited to play someone your own age, ignore the
rule. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 07:42:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:42:50 +0800
Subject: [TML] FSotSI
In-Reply-To: <3C59D8A0.30659A9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEBNDPAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looking at the identical "errors" on several designs I came up with the
theory that they had been designed using a spreadsheet which used overtyping
of cells to get the stats. Unfortunately some of the cells were not
amended - just a theory mindyou.

I personally found this book more useful as a source for large TNE vessels.
If you have time have a look at my Titan (BI-15) class dreadnought. Follow
the links from the bottom of
www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/Banners/alstonbat.html

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:21:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:21:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: aging
In-Reply-To: <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <3C5A442C.8A5E3DCD@together.net>
Message-ID: <200202010321180498.401F58B9@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>> Fair!"
>> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
>> 
>> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
>> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
>> 
>
>	The same issue was discussed on the T20 playtest boards. The answer was
>Marc said it was a game balance issue. Basically, he wanted to ensure
>characters were still young enough to play PCs by the time they mustered
>out... 
>
>	Note: You can serve more than 6 terms because of the mandatory
>reenlistment.
>
>	So if you are really excited to play someone your own age, ignore the
>rule. 

I think they are more refering to the effects of aging rather than the term limits imposed. CT is pretty hard on aging. T20 still has aging effects, but they are less than experienced in CT, you lose fewer points on abilities that have a greater value range (3-18 vs 2-12)

The term limits are artificial and serve as mentioned to push the PCs out into the adventuring universe before 'true' retirement. There are plenty of present day examples of service personnel who have served far more than 7 terms of service, and no reason not to allow them in Traveller if the Referee deems it appropriate.

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:21:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020201.002200.-2751.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Trent 

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:59:59 -0800 "Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
> 
> This time yesterday I would've agreed that this example was
> correct. Today (after having spent the last hour or so digging
> through books and doing calculations) I'm pretty sure it's not.
> 
> So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs
> are broken and need to be redone?  No, it just means that a
> lot of them probably could've gotten away with smaller
> computers than he installed.  Not that installing the cheapest
> or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
> choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But
> it does allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better
> in the end.

Thank you for your input. There are 50+ ships needing other changes, as I
found flaws in other areas. I did have nearly 75 ships before my big
crash Oct 30th 2000, but the latest and biggest were lost. I was working
on 20,000 dtons, but now have 1 5,000 dton as my largest.

I am not a gearhead, and since I only have MT, my understanding of
designs can be scrutinized by all as one-track, by the book, step 1,2,3
in style. I understand where you're coming from, and your kind remarks.
The broadening of options, even in just this one point somewhat fry's my
brain. I prefer limitations - choose only 1,2, or 3, not take your pick
of 1 to 20.

TOO MANY CHOICES - BRAIN OVERLOAD, MUST SEEK HELP!

ERROR, ERROR, ERROR, CPU NOT CONFIGURED FOR STRESS!

MUST SEEK - ERROR - ANYLIZE - ERROR - STERILIZE!

ERROR, ERROR, I AM NOMAD - STERILIZE!

STERIL.....


Brig. General Turokan
Commander
8th Interstellar Heavy Infantry Division
Solomoni Alliance, TL-G
Etaboruk, Freedom sector

________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:12:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:12:26 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 20:43, Terry Carlino wrote:

> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet? Can its ground forces beat the
> combined Unified Armies of the Sector? Can it beat the combined fleets of the
> Domain? How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy? Can it
> survive the withdrawal of the Megacorps (who are the Imperium?)

Can it beat the Full Sector Fleet? Possibly, the odds are not in its favour, 
but it can give it a darn good run for its money and inflict enough damage 
to leave it crippled for decades. Can it's ground forces defeat the combined 
Unified Armies? Quite likely they can. And the application of these levels of 
force in not a trival task.

> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would say
> that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And let's not
> forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by a powerful
> fleet.

And lets not forget the cost of the Battle of Terra either. Bottom line is that 
while the Imperium can muster sufficent force to subdue a single high pop 
high tech world, doing so requires a massive effort and leaves the entire 
sector reeling for decades after. So virtually any option is preferable.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:32:09 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <01d301c1ab03$53025d40$46cad63f@customer>

> Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:
> >
> >Has anyone else actually read the detailed descriptions of Zhodani
culture
> >and history? IIRC the thought police are a second stage. There is
something
> >along the lines of a careers guidance advisor on reaching maturity and
they
> >match people's abilities and interests to the gaps and availabilities in
> >the labour market. Even if the thought police do get called in they can
> >recommend that someone have a lifestyle/career change to make them more
> >happy.
> >
>
> Certainly.  And all of the above will occur within the guidelines
> laid down by the Nobles, for the benefit of the Nobles.
>
> Counselor: "We had another Artist today.  We directed him towards
> Economic Forecasting, that's the best use for him.  We'll have
> to adjust him periodically to keep him content with the position,
> though...as we all know, imagination among Proles is best directed
> towards interpolating and projecting known data...left to his own
> devices, who knows what dangerous fantasies this poor Prole might
> have developed."
>
> Zhodani society isn't the worst way to rule people, not at all.
> I think it's an interesting development of a society that is both
> human and alien at the same time, and the alienness makes it
> hard to apply moral codes to.  Is happiness sufficient?  What
> about self-determination?  Or are both culturally constructed
> illusions anyway?
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet

I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled and
unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

John Scarlett



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:38:02 +1300
Subject: [TML] FSotSI
In-Reply-To: <3C59D8A0.30659A9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3C5B0ABA.23402.49E8E7@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 17:52, David Shayne wrote:

> It is considered broken in the sense that the ships are less than
> optimal designs that may not actually have been constructed using the
> vehicle design rules. (not sure on this last part as I haven't tried
> reverse engineering all of them. The ones I did try didn't seem to 
> come out right.)

How about also that the fuel quantities listed for some ships are cut and paste 
jobs from some others and are clearly way off? How about that the prices of 
some ships seem very, very strange? Also IIRC the crews on some seem odd, too.

Mind you it's not a lot worse than CT's _Fighting Ships.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:59:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0FCD.955.5DBD3C@localhost>

On 1 Feb 2002, at 1:09, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little too
> fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity to leave
> _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN THE
> FLIPPING RAMP.

That scene had me and my friends hopping up and down shouting "Who Gave you 
permmision to land!", and "If the Aliens don't get you the court martial will!" 
We were less than popular with the other movie goers.

> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.
 
> Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 2300
> A.D.

Never would've guessed. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:59:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>

On 31 Jan 2002, at 22:47, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote: >I
> will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone >who
> shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of >course, I have
> friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a >stout.)
> 
> Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
> another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
> suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
> Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already had
> BayCon 2002?).

Those are mighty small bottles, then (or mighty big gallons). Assuming stubbies 
of 335mL each you're looking at 67 Litres of fluid, or about 15 Imperial 
Gallons (which is in turn about 18 of those little ity-bity gallons used in the 
US). 

I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:22:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020201042258.00e53e70@buffnet.net>

>And lets not forget the cost of the Battle of Terra either. Bottom line is
that 
>while the Imperium can muster sufficent force to subdue a single high pop 
>high tech world, doing so requires a massive effort and leaves the entire 
>sector reeling for decades after. So virtually any option is preferable.

Keep in mind one thing Gentlemen...

The battle for Terra was not against Earth alone, but against the entire
Solomani Sphere...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 08:47:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:47:33 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>
Message-ID: <014d01c1ab00$63a211c0$b966893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: <tim@premier.net>


> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and
> made up a symbol?

As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of comment
riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. It is about
having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying anarchists.

--
Fabian
It ain't the money, it's the job title.
It ain't the job title, it's what you do.
It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.
That's what it's all about.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 09:24:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:24:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012504748.8505.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020131094626.006b8388@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020201042440.00e47148@buffnet.net>

Hello Anthony,
  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.
  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
Imperium wants to see emplaced.
  The next question of course, would be to determine what the standard
operating proceedures are with respect to a world in revolt.  If the time
lag between the Imperial court and the location of the problem can amount
to year's worth of time, clearly, the local government at the scene must be
empowered with what ever it takes to bring the errant world back into line.
  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.
  What makes this a major issue is the fact that if one world can get away
with it, more worlds can do the same.  In a way, it wouldn't be unlike the
first states of the south telling President Lincoln that they were seceding
from the United States.

Ok, having outlined all of that - here is my take on the issue:

1) a diplomatic envoy would be empowered to negotiate with the government
of Trin informing them that this would be considered an act of Treason
against the Imperial Court and carries a hefty penalty

2) Any world engaging in acts of treason will have to be dealt with as
traitors in order to stem the potential of ennerving other world nations to
secede from the Imperium.  As a consequence, there *will* be war.  The
death toll on both parts of the Combatant's sides will be horrendous.

After that?  Assuming that Trin still engages in withholding their taxes
etc?  I can see no choice on the Imperial's side but to appeal to *all*
nearby naval forces and such to engage in putting down what may be the
beginning of a successful rebellion.  Putting it in medieval terms - if the
peasants revolt, all nobles are required to help on the premise that a
rebellion by serfs that spreads will destroy society.

          Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 10:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:47:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>


--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:

<< hadn't suffered psychic trauma like that since watching the original
American release of Highlander 2.>>

Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
television show.

As a Highlander fan (the first movie is on my list of movies I'll watch
any place, any time) I cried when I'd realized I'd spent hard-earned
money to see the second movie when it came to theaters.



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 11:21:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:21:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Anthony,
>  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
>things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
>that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
>were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
>taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.

It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).

>  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
>powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
>of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
>Imperium wants to see emplaced.

Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.

>  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
>Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
>Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
>incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
>placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.

Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
seem to be rather insular.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 11:43:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:43:17  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <JDEEFJLEDCMFDBAA@angelfire.com>

Mark Urbin writes:
> But these Marines are on leave.  Really.  Honest.
> Bring the troop ships in under escort and place 'em in their assigned 
> parking orbits.
> Make sure they get paid right before shuttling down.
> 
> They are not there to collect taxes.  Far from it.  They are there to spend
>  Imperial credits and boost the local economy.

Yeah.  How is this relevant?  Trin will tell them 'ok, land at
>location X', and
>if they make trouble, arrest them.  Trin's imperial taxes are several
>_trillion_ credits per year, troublemaking marines are unlikely to >manage a
>billion credits in damage before being squashed.

*Would* the 3I allow Trin to have a SDB fleet that thouroughly outguns the Imperial one. Surely that comes under the heading of "potentially detrimental to interstellar trade" and thus would be nipped in the bud befrore it became an issue?

I really can't see any Duke or Archduke thinking, "oh, there's a system building a huge fleet. Shall I deal with it now or shall I wait for them to try to overthrow me? Hmm, tough choice".

OTOH, they might. I can see a few ways that Trin could be brought into line without using military might.
 
Trade embargoes. Just Red Zone the entire system. Cut them off from the 3I. They'll miss getting news of the outside world, all those foodstuffs that Trin has to rely on, not to mention all the raw materials Trin needs for its industry. The populace might get antsy very quickly if deprived of "necessities"

Another ploy might be the "coincidental" increase in piracy in the system once Imperial protection (which is waht those Cr trillions pay for) is removed (hmm, why do you think that the Imperium issues all those letters of marque?)
  
Just some thoughts off the top of my head, and *I* haven't had hundreds of years of practice at dealing with the problem.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:18:02 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Nobles (long)
In-Reply-To: <00b301c1aabb$e7ec16a0$424d8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Alan Bradley wrote :
> > From: "Frank Pitt"
> > This is what happened in Fiji during Rambouka's first coup.
> 
> Grrr...
> 
> That's Rabuka.

What, do you like him or something ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:18:01 +1300
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Daumen wrote :
> This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William
> Gibson should stick to prose, which is ultimately
> proven in Johhny Mnemonic.

William Gibson didn't write Alien 3.

The original director, Vincent Ward, wrote it.

Then, the moneymen argued with Ward, who is damn good moviemaker,
and would probably have succeeded in what he was trying to do, so
he quit, and the movie was left to some hacks to finish off.

> > _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...
>
> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?

As a Traveller movie. The crew of thee freighter acte exactly lke
player chacaters, except that they didn't move quite as fast as
player characters would have done in getting off the military
ship.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:21:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:21:36  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <AOOKHELIKDOFDBAA@angelfire.com>

>Hello Anthony,
>  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
>things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
>that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
>were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
>taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.

It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).

>  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
>powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
>of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
>Imperium wants to see emplaced.

Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.

>  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
>Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
>Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
>incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
>placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.

Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
seem to be rather insular.


I really think that the Imperium would go a long way not to get involved in open battle. I think they can make pretty uncomfortable for Trin without pointing a single gun. I think that they can lean fairly hard iin terms of financial threats. after all it is a financial institution more than anything else. 

They can freeze the assets of anyone from Trin. That's going to make a lot of people very poor very quickly. Not only that but think of ma and pa back at home when their only son is suddenly penniless because the government has refused to pay its taxes. There might be a groundswell of people thinking it's not such a good idea after all.

They could freeze the assets of anyone still dealing with Trin after the order has gone out. This means that the megacorps will clear out fairly fast.

They can send in pirates to make life very difficult for in-system trade. It doesn't matter how powerful the SD fleet is, tthese people are experts at getting out of their way.

They could quarantine the system such that anyone leavign is arrested unless they can come up with a good reason for being let off (like being one of the megacorps being pulled out). In addition any vessels found to be trading with Trin could be destroyed.

Again, the Imperium could probably think of another few ways of making life very difficult for the errant system. Think of it as a death by a thousand cuts kind of policy: make life a war of attrition for the natives and eventually they'll just give up the ghost and come back.

Either that or they'll try to break out and then they're fighting on *your* turf.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:39:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:39:23 -0500
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200202010340.g113eDN21066@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1ab1d$7aaacde0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> From: knightsky@juno.com
>
> > > _Alien^3_ was an attempt at a gothic horror film.  Didn't work overly
well.
> > >
> > This movie puts forth the hypothesis that William Gibson should
> > stick to prose, which is ultimately proven in Johhny Mnemonic.
>
> Umm... I don't think Gibson's script was used for Alien^3.
>
That's right!  I guess the screenplay made about the same impression on me
as the movie.  IIRC the the bar codes on the prisoner's heads was his idea.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 13:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:38:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>

Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!

Our Two Main weapons are:
Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!

Damn!

Our Three Main weapons are:...

At 03:38 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > But these Marines are on leave.  Really.  Honest.
> > Bring the troop ships in under escort and place 'em in their assigned
> > parking orbits.
> > Make sure they get paid right before shuttling down.
> >
> > They are not there to collect taxes.  Far from it.  They are there to spend
> >  Imperial credits and boost the local economy.
>
>Yeah.  How is this relevant?  Trin will tell them 'ok, land at location 
>X', and
>if they make trouble, arrest them.  Trin's imperial taxes are several
>_trillion_ credits per year, troublemaking marines are unlikely to manage a
>billion credits in damage before being squashed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 13:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:30:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
In-Reply-To: <157.8322666.298b8bab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201082919.00b5d098@mail.charter.net>

At 01:11 AM 2/1/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London, I felt so naked
> >  that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a guy on the street.
>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from butterflies?

Either way, it was still probably illegal under British law...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 14:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:31:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: Zhodani
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201162523.00bf7440@ee.tut.fi>

GypsyComet wrote:

 >  All children of a Noble or Intendant will be dropped by one SOC
 > except the designated heir, except that Intendants don't have heirs
 > unless their children test high enough to be Intendants in their own
 > right.

	Hmm? I thought that the Zhodani nobility is not inheritable at
	all and can only be gained though personal qualification. The
	inheritable noble rank is something that exists only in the
	decadent Imperium.

	IMTU all Zhodani citizen are considered to be born as proles,
	and nobility must be gained. I consider that the terms "noble"
	and "prole" are just best-fit anglic words used to describe two
	aspects in Zhodani society. Zhodani society has very little in
	common with the Imperial-style neo-feudalism.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:29:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:29:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>

>  I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
>  made up a symbol?

It was formally adopted by the Grey Council of Elders at the Synod of 1882.

Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to 
respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings under 
the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:37:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020201042258.00e53e70@buffnet.net>
References: <3C5B04BA.4118.701615@localhost>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <ML-2.3.1012520310.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201073707.006b88ec@mindspring.com>

At 04:22 AM 02/01/02 -0500, you wrote:

>The battle for Terra was not against Earth alone, but against the entire
>Solomani Sphere...

Good point!  By the time of the invasion, the Imperial commanders had
fought through several subsectors, and needed to end the bloodiest war in
Imperial history!

Think Desert Storm.  The Imperium can bering up fleets from Deneb, mass
Marine Force Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops
from the UA Mora and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their
leisure, all the time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the
SDBs.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:50:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <014d01c1ab00$63a211c0$b966893e@fabian>
References: <3C59E834.14038.7DFF4D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075021.006bbb68@mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 02/01/02 -0000, you wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <tim@premier.net>
>
>
>> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and
>> made up a symbol?
>
>As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of comment
>riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. It is about
>having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying anarchists.

True story.

There is a store on Haight St called the Anarchisc Collective Bookstore.
Neat place, sometimes good to find the kind of books Ken Hite is so fond
of.  I'm in there one day, and need to find out something.  Neo-punker at
the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say "Manager?  That isn't
very anarchisitc, is it?"

She didn't get it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:26:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:26:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201072615.006b5da8@mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 02/01/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>
><< hadn't suffered psychic trauma like that since watching the original
>American release of Highlander 2.>>
>
>Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
>bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
>was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
>television show.

In the end, there should have been only one.  (and the series)
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:52:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:52:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075258.006b5450@mindspring.com>

At 10:47 PM 01/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:10:35, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I will pay reasonable airfare and con membership to BayCon 2003 for anyone 
>>who shows up with about 200 bottles of Scout Brew (various styles of 
>>course, I have friends who think that beer is a food group, so we'd need a 
>>stout.)
>
>Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
>another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
>suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
>Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already 
>had BayCon 2002?).

BayCon is the end of May.  I say if I get my new job (which will pay forty
grand a year minimum) I will fly someone next year.  

Actually, I'm sort of happy we aren't having the Traveller Party this year,
as BayCon seems to be suffering from a set of massive ego problems and
staff changes.

Note: Reasonable means from anywhere in North America for the cheapest
prices we can find.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:55:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:55:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

IIRC, the entire basis of most of the versions of
trade and commerce rules indicate that the reason
trade works so well is that hi pop worlds tend to be
(A) higher tech and (B) less able to sustain
themselves.

That being the case, I think after an acceptable 
"grace" period, the initial step would be to place
travel and trade interdictions against the world.  It
would be VERY difficult for world with the population
of Trin to survive long on the BMTFN (Black Market
Tramp Freighters Network).

And since the percentage of taxes are considerably
higher, the Imperium would "police" the interdiction
enough as to make any Black Market Trader very leary
of trying to make the Trin run.  Yes, the profits are
high, but the risk is higher.

What would follow is seige.  I would expect
negotiating envoys to be allowed through to try to
come to an agreement.  After a given time, if it
becomes obvious that the government will not comply,
the Navy moves in.

The strength of the local defenses will be factors as
to the length of time to allow the seige to continue. 
For large "Trin" sized defense forces, it may be
necessary to wait until several years for maintenance
failures to help decimate the fleet, but I would
imagine the interdiction would work in most cases.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:47:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:47:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <182.2fd07aa.298b8156@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201074713.006b8408@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:

>No disrespect meant for the man -- I salute him for several things things he 
>accomplished and respect him -- but Roddenberry got a little preachy on 
>certain topics, especially later in his life. 

Really.  It is interesting that TNG got notably better after his death.
Human conflict was allowed to emerge on the Enterprise.  
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:44:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <128.bc45dbc.298b8afe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201074448.006b85b8@mindspring.com>

At 01:09 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:

>Aliens got troopers "mostly" right, but I think they came unglued a little 
>too fast once things began to go sour. Anyway, it was big ticket stupidity
to 
>leave _nobody_ on the Sulaco, and even dumber to ground the lander and OPEN 
>THE FLIPPING RAMP. Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to 
>accomplish the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave
them 
>up to their own devices."

I don't know... overconfidence, poor leadership, an enemy that attacks with
no warning and complete ferocity while you are mostly unarmed.. coming
apart in those circumstances is about what I'd expect.

As for the ramp, somehow, I don't think that landing craft has a latrine
installed, y'know?

>Overall, a good flick, however, and one of the inspirations for the look of 
>2300 A.D.

So I noticed.

Douglas Berry, Sargant-chef
Tanstaafl Free Legion, Aurore
2300-2302
"Kafers Killed, Virgins Rescued*
*Not in orginal condition"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:32:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:32:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012530345.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201073242.006b7294@mindspring.com>

At 06:25 PM 01/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Terry Carlino writes:
>> I fail to see the problem. So what if Trin's PDF can beat the subsector
>> fleet? Can it beat the Combined Sector Fleet?
>
>Probably not.  OTOH, needing to pull together the sector fleet to deal with a
>tax dispute with a single world has its own problems; you're talking a major
>mobilization, which is enormously expensive and may not be practical due
to the
>existence of other threats.

Well, first of all, looking at Trin, I think their first problem is going
to be food.  10 billion people and a tainted atmosphere?

Then of course, their economy goes bye-bye.  An Imperial blockade stopping
and seizing all ships to be found to be carrying goods from Trin, or with
evidence on their ship's log of having been there, will stop imports and
exports cold.

>> Can its ground forces beat
>> the combined Unified Armies of the Sector?
>The combined jump-capable unified armies?  Quite possibly.
>
>> How would it react to being Red Zoned by the Imperial Navy?
>It's a trade shock, and may eventually result in a decline of tech level.  It
>will probably take decades to cause serious effects, however.

The Imperium has time, but it doesn't take that long to draw the fleets
from the surrounding sectors.

>> Considering how the individual worlds fared during the Long Night I would
>> say that even a high pop world would not survive isolation for long. And
>> let's not forget the assault on Terra, another high pop world protected by
>> a powerful fleet.
>
>Which required the combined military forces an entire domain to take out, and
>basically crippled the Imperial fleet, allowing the remainder of the
>Confederation to consolidate itself into a new government.

Of course, the Solomani also "packed the homeworld almost shoulder to
shoulder with troops."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 15:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:59:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <fd.13184d82.298b8365@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>

At 12:36 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:
>> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
>>  nobles?
>
>And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are often 
>not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.
>
>Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are 
>clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic 
>
>"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the pins 
>fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"

Played in a 5FW based game once, and we were facing Zho Guards on Efate.
We had gotten sick of that trick, so we fooled them.

We took a large number of psi-shields and uniforms from dead comrades, and
made dummies, and made positions for them.. even armed them.  (We had
learned from experience that most of the CG seers weren't that good - a
bone the Referee threw us)

The Mind-raper scans, sees a platoon sized position with everybody on
guard, a few people around a cook pot, etc.  Passes the word to the assault
team.  Thet zot in...

... and get wiped out by our preset explosives.  It's amazing what 20kg of
TDX will do to a Zho platoon.  We then overran the Zho jumping-off point,
and smashed it before they could react.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
  http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:21:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224752.00bb76d0@mail.qrc.com> <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> > Hmmm ... that's 4 cases plus a 6-pack and two singles.  Or, to put it 
> > another way, about 10 gallons of beer, or two of my usual batches.  I'd 
> > suggest either a Porter or a Stout, plus something lighter - perhaps an 
> > Altbier or some type of summer ale.  When is BayCon 2003?  (have we already had
> > BayCon 2002?).
> 
> Those are mighty small bottles, then (or mighty big gallons). Assuming stubbies 
> of 335mL each you're looking at 67 Litres of fluid, or about 15 Imperial 
> Gallons (which is in turn about 18 of those little ity-bity gallons used in the 
> US). 

Ah, his error was in the number of cases required.  A case of beer is
24 bottles; 200 bottles would be 8 cases, a 6-pack and two singles.
Given that a 5 gallon batch of beer (initial size; after lossage it's
about 4 1/2) produces about two cases of beer, that would be four
batches and change.

Looked at another way, 200 bottles are 24 oz., which are 18.75
gallons, which is just over four batches.

Our gallons are small because a gallon is 8 pounds of water.  Thus a
pint's a pound, a cup's 8 oz. and a fluid oz. is an ounce of water.
We preserve the original doubling-and-halving flow of the system.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:41:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:41:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C5AC52A.4090403@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:

 
> A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
> trauma like that since watching the original American release of
> Highlander 2.

Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my 
screams as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the snack 
bar didn't disturb you much...

Man That was a bad movie, and not even good bad like 'Santa vs the 
Martians' but really bad bad, like 'Waiting for Guffmann'...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:38:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:38:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201075021.006bbb68@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020201163848.63567.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  SPLORT!!![coffee everywhere].......

      MA[kaffkaff]Cessna
  >>
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> True story.
> 
> There is a store on Haight St called the Anarchisc
> Collective Bookstore.
> Neat place, sometimes good to find the kind of books
> Ken Hite is so fond
> of.  I'm in there one day, and need to find out
> something.  Neo-punker at
> the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say
> "Manager?  That isn't
> very anarchisitc, is it?"
> 
> She didn't get it.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:34:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:34:23 -0700
Subject: [TML] aging
References: <000001c1aacd$5729cf60$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3C5AC38F.5060303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

n2sami wrote:

> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"


Young punk!


> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.


Remember all those 'injury' rolls you made during chargen? Do you think 
that you would need a cane today if you hadn't been jumping out of 
PGA's? :-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:39:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:39:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <RELAY2wjWzyyLwDKCG4000018b0@relay2.softcomca.com>

LKW <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:

> > 3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London,
> > I felt so naked that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a
> > guy on the street.
>
> Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense
> from butterflies?

Defense from.  Have you *seen* the size of those suckers at
Kew Gardens?  Man, I suspect they carry of livestock! :^)

Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
on *me*!) :^)

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:43 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3c5ccadb.7418031@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
>Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  

According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.
See the definition in "Library Data" in the main rule book, and also
some mentions in at least one of the Planetary Survey books. 

I don't know if this is a change to canon, a horrible mistake, or
something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator
actually visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and
drinks, persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in
question)...

Stephen



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:41 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3c5bc5bd.6107545@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:

>Our Two Main weapons are:
>Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
>Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
>A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!

I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
Tigresses...

Stephen
(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
adding insult to injury)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:12:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:12:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <3C5AC52A.4090403@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020131.222114.-260707.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201120546.00ac6b00@mail.charter.net>

At 09:41 AM 2/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered psychic
>>trauma like that since watching the original American release of
>>Highlander 2.
>Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my screams 
>as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the snack bar 
>didn't disturb you much...
>Man That was a bad movie, and not even good bad like 'Santa vs the 
>Martians' but really bad bad, like 'Waiting for Guffmann'...

Oh come on, at least "Waiting for Guffmann" had great improv.  Highlander 
the Should be Forgotten had bad money.
Ok, it was kinda fun to watch Sean Connery hamming it up, but other than 
that, ya uniformly rotten.
I even saw the "Director's Cut"  That also truly awful...

I saw "Waiting for Guffmann" on CD. The cut scenes were as much fun as the 
rest of the movie.  From the commentary, they had dozens of additional 
hours of footage, including whole musical numbers.



----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:33:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201073242.006b7294@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012584829.6838.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> Well, first of all, looking at Trin, I think their first problem is going
> to be food.  10 billion people and a tainted atmosphere?

Looking at Trin's neighbors, there's no way Trin is importing food for 10
billion people, which means they must produce it locally somehow.
> 
> Then of course, their economy goes bye-bye.  An Imperial blockade stopping
> and seizing all ships to be found to be carrying goods from Trin, or with
> evidence on their ship's log of having been there, will stop imports and
> exports cold.

We don't know the exact volume of imports and exports from Trin.  Part of the
problem (from the prior discussions on JTAS) is that by Far Trader
calculations, Trin's total export economy is about 1% of GWP.  Even ignoring
that, the canon level of trade does not seem to be terribly high.  It's
possible that a pop-A TL-12 is dependent on trade to maintain it's tech (and
the existence of the long night somewhat supports this; we don't know how
common hi-pop worlds were in the 2nd imperium, nor by how much they really
collapsed), but loss of trade for less than a decade is unlikely.

> The Imperium has time, but it doesn't take that long to draw the fleets
> from the surrounding sectors.

Assuming no hostile neighbors reads this as 'opportunity!'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:36:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was: T5)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224719.00bcad80@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012584977.5758.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> 
> >Temptation to throw out thruster plates entirely, and invent a
> >volume-based drive.  Simplifies High Guard conversions greatly.
> 
> That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S.

In many ways, that's more 'what should be in FF&S3' than 'what should be in
QSDS'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:51:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224734.00bb3710@mail.qrc.com> <3c5ccadb.7418031@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C5AD587.4050500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:

> Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>The travel zones (Green/Amber/Red) are advisories issued by the Travellers' 
>>Aid Society, and not classifications enforced by the Scout Service.  
>>
> 
> According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.
> See the definition in "Library Data" in the main rule book, and also
> some mentions in at least one of the Planetary Survey books. 
> 
> I don't know if this is a change to canon, a horrible mistake, or
> something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator
> actually visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and
> drinks, persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in
> question)...


I suspect that Amber zones are suggeted to the TAS by the scouts, much 
like State Department Travel Advisories...if those were published by a 
private company instead of the government.

Those advisories are pretty much the way I see TAS Red/Amber zone 
designations.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:52:13 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Think Desert Storm."


Mr. Berry,

     On second thought, think again.
     Just how mobile, in an interstellar strategic sense, are Imperial 
forces?

     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the 
time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."

     Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in 
the war zone itself.
     Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could 
be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.  After 
thawing out, they'd be issued the equipment they needed from stores on the 
scene.  But can the Imperium really move 1 million men?
     I've been following this thread and it's sister over on the JTAS 
boards.  The JTAS thread has settled comfortably into immovable seige lines, 
like the anarchy thread here has.  The one question unasked and unanswered 
at either forum is just how mobile the Imperium's forces are on a strategic 
scale.
     Anyone remember the thread early last year in which several old hands 
gently disabused me of my ideas on colonization?  I'd blithely assumed that 
Deneb and the Marches were mostly colonized by folks shipped in from the 
Imperial core territories.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen and others kindly pointed out 
how that was/is complete nonsense given the  costs associated with moving so 
many people.  If the cost of moving herds of frozen colonists can't be born 
by the Imperium, than why is shipping millions of troops suddenly 
achievable?
     Giving the arguments against long range colonization, I'd say that 
local forces don't recieve overwhelmly massive reenforcements from across 
the Imperium.  Imperial reenforcements may be limited to those from nearby 
sectors, and then still generally be those with their own, "built-in" 
interstellar mobility, i.e. fleets, vessels, etc.  Any other formations that 
arrive would have a very  big "bang to dTon" ratio, raiders, rangers, 
commandos, jump troops, Marines, etc.  The result would be a military 
organized somewhat like the Imperial Roman model.  Frontier forces 
positioned and raised for local defense, stiffened with relatively small 
numbers of superior, strategically mobile, Imperial forces.  Offensive 
actions would involve raising additional local formations rather than 
marshalling pre-existing forces from across the Imperium.
     Any thoughts?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>>on 1/31/02 4:58 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Well, what's the point of being rich and powerful if your vehicles don't
>> pollute and consume non-renewable resources?  Using water for fuel or
>> plugging to a fusion power grid -- you might as well ride the bus.
>
>Well, since you live in the highport too...
>
>And you can still get drunk, override the automatics, and careen through
the
>streets running down pedestrians.

Now we're talking!

--Glenn

(I'm not a rich and powerful person, but I play one in a Traveller
campaign.)  (Actually, I play several; I'm the referee.)  (Yes, it's set on
Regina, and occasionally steals xxx borrows from www.travellercentral.com .)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
>
>I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
>Fair!"
>I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
>more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
>jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.

Well, maybe we just have to choose our adventures as we get older.  Rather
than being the leader of the platoon in an assault, maybe we go undercover
and walk through the objective a few days before.  Many retired people (65+)
go on archaeological and paleontological digs in remote places.  Ship's
captains and senior crew -- as well as airline cockpit crews -- are likely
to be in their 40s and 50s.  You're certainly not too decrepit for a great
many adventures, even if you would now decline to sleep in the mud.

For me, 40 is in the rearview mirror, but I'm in good enough shape to do a
lot of things that adventurers do.  I'm also a little smarter, so that I
don't waste as much energy doing them -- and I was probably not as vital a
physical creature in my teens and 20s as you.  (Remember Louis Wu at 200,
with his definite economy of motion; I'm just starting to understand those
concepts.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:06:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>      "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
> Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora
>  and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all
> the  time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."

Raising parties can easily wind up costing the attacker more than the defender.
> 
>      Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
> jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
> journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in
>  the war zone itself.
>      Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could
>  be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.

Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 jumps at
J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on Mora isn't an
Imperial army, it belongs to Mora.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:01:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:01:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <RELAY2wjWzyyLwDKCG4000018b0@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C5AD817.4020104@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

markc@peak.org wrote:

> LKW <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>>3"?  I just left my blades at home this summer.  In London,
>>>I felt so naked that I had to buy a butterfly knife from a
>>>guy on the street.
>>>
>>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense
>>from butterflies?
>>
> 
> Defense from.  Have you *seen* the size of those suckers at
> Kew Gardens?  Man, I suspect they carry of livestock! :^)
> 
> Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
> of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
> an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
> on *me*!) :^)


What? You must walk around with a bandolier, like that guy in "El 
Mariachi" (the remake with Banderas, don't remember if that character 
was in the original)

You are the only person I've ever met who carries a Champion all the 
time...mine's a (iirc) Huntsman, I only carry the classic Leatherman, 
both in a fanny pack, and an old, well-used and well loved metal sided 
executive in my pocket.

And that last one is a rather strange blade...kinda hard to open your 
mail or cut some cheese for lunch with it, and every time _I've_ tried 
to use it as a corkscrew I just got wine all over the place!


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:59:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:59:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5bc5bd.6107545@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020131181805.00ac27c8@mail.charter.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020201083639.024901e8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201125734.00ace2f0@mail.charter.net>

But Happy Fun Balls are just *one* of our weapons.

Our Three main weapons are:
Marines on Liberty!
Happy Fun Ball Battleships
A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!
The Imperial Office of Weights and Measures.

Damn!

Our *Four* main weapons are:...


At 05:16 PM 2/1/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >Our Two Main weapons are:
> >Marines on Liberty are just one of our weapons!
> >Happy Fun Ball Battleships!
> >A Fanatical Loyalty to the Emperor!
>
>I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
>an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
>peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
>Tigresses...
>
>Stephen
>(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
>adding insult to injury)

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
>Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from
butterflies?

Both, and it doubles as a raincoat, so that I really didn't feel naked at
all.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 17:58:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
>
>I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled and
>unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

As they say in the Consulate, if you can't have good psi conditioning, at
least you can have art.  Poor Imperials.  Poor Solomani.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:31:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:31:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F144EuwVZn6Qpixg3yF000060d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201103139.006c2670@mindspring.com>

At 05:52 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>     "Think Desert Storm."
>
>     On second thought, think again.
>     Just how mobile, in an interstellar strategic sense, are Imperial 
>forces?
>
>     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force 
>Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
>and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the 
>time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."
>
>     Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd simply 
>jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the 
>journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them in 
>the war zone itself.
>     Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora could 
>be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.  After 
>thawing out, they'd be issued the equipment they needed from stores on the 
>scene.  But can the Imperium really move 1 million men?

I refer to that font of wonder, Ground Forces.

A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
million troops.

The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.  

Note that this doesn't even begin to count the troops from Deneb, Glisten,
or Lunion that might be drawn in to support the fight.  Rhylanor has a huge
UA, and could easily transport an enire grav tank army to add to the punch.
 Remember that the Keith-class is equpped with its own battalion sized
landers.

Reefer transports are passe'.

>     I've been following this thread and it's sister over on the JTAS 
>boards.  The JTAS thread has settled comfortably into immovable seige lines, 
>like the anarchy thread here has.  The one question unasked and unanswered 
>at either forum is just how mobile the Imperium's forces are on a strategic 
>scale.
>     Anyone remember the thread early last year in which several old hands 
>gently disabused me of my ideas on colonization?  I'd blithely assumed that 
>Deneb and the Marches were mostly colonized by folks shipped in from the 
>Imperial core territories.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen and others kindly pointed out 
>how that was/is complete nonsense given the  costs associated with moving so 
>many people.  If the cost of moving herds of frozen colonists can't be born 
>by the Imperium, than why is shipping millions of troops suddenly 
>achievable?

Because these troops aren't coming from the Core, they are coming a
relatively short distance.  Mora is four jumps away from Trin ( Maitz
[2927], Nexine [3030], Katarulu [3032], Trin [3235. Alternate route is to
jump from Katarulu to Murchenson [2935] which has a Navy base.)  The troops
spend a couple of months travelling.

>     Giving the arguments against long range colonization, I'd say that 
>local forces don't recieve overwhelmly massive reenforcements from across 
>the Imperium.  Imperial reenforcements may be limited to those from nearby 
>sectors, and then still generally be those with their own, "built-in" 
>interstellar mobility, i.e. fleets, vessels, etc.  Any other formations that 
>arrive would have a very  big "bang to dTon" ratio, raiders, rangers, 
>commandos, jump troops, Marines, etc.  The result would be a military 
>organized somewhat like the Imperial Roman model.  Frontier forces 
>positioned and raised for local defense, stiffened with relatively small 
>numbers of superior, strategically mobile, Imperial forces.  Offensive 
>actions would involve raising additional local formations rather than 
>marshalling pre-existing forces from across the Imperium.
>     Any thoughts?

A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the advantage
shifts.

The Unified Armies are drawn from local stock.. they just are very picky
and get the best equipment.

Also note that the single field army of the UA Trin would mostly likely not
be used, as Trinites make up the bulk of it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:36:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:36:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>I'm in there one day, and need to find out something.  Neo-punker at
>the counter says, "let me get the manager."  I say "Manager?  That isn't
>very anarchisitc, is it?"

Maybe she meant something like this:

"I told you, we're an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take it in turns to
act a sort of executive officer for the week.  But all the decisions of that
officer must be approved at a bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the
case of purely internal affairs ...."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 18:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:36:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Murder
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
>
>Charles wrote:
>
>> How does it frame a law in a way that offers equal protection to
>> all? It's harder than you think, since new species are contacted
>
>It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
>worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
>(with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
>is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
>against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
>jurisdictions ...

Joe:  So then we had problems wit dis guy Teppo who ran some rackets near
the Coliseum, so we whacked him.

RIS Informant J:  How did you get away with that?  Did they even, even
prosecute you, bring a murder charge?

Joe:  Nah, no problem.  Get it, he was from Efate, get it.  Eff Arty.  He
went to visit his relatives, and wunna my boys got insulted over a woman,
and challenged him to a duel, and that was the end of Teppo.  Duelling is
legal on Efate, so there was, there was no crime committed, no crime at all.
Regina prosecutors looked at it like my boy did them a favor.  It's a
wonderful empire, huh?

(Excerpt of recorded conversation between Joseph P. Ciscovich aka Slimey
Joe, and confidential Regina Internal Security informant "J", 038-1100.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 16:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:34:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020201034609.45831.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c1ab3e$4dbda200$1f9e15ac@warrior>

there can be only one... highlander movie that is

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Cessna" <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] OT Enterprise Question


>   >>
>   AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!FIEND!!You uttered the Forbidden
> Phrase!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>     MACessna[gasping forAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....]
>   >>
> --- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I
> > hadn't suffered psychic
> > trauma like that since watching the original
> > American release of
> > Highlander 2.
> >
> >
> > Perry
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
> http://auctions.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 19:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:53:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5A9DC2.18462.123906@localhost>


> 
> It was formally adopted by the Grey Council of Elders at the Synod of
> 1882.
> 
> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 


As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of 
comment riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. 
It is about having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying 
anarchists.

Well at least he respected Bakunin now its not to bad.  As 
someone who is proudly not a card caring Anarchist I say it was a 
joke get over it. 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:33:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:33:54 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>


From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
     "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force
Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA Mora 
and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all the  
time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."


Mr. Jackson,

      Sorry, not mine.  It's Mr. Berry's fine prose.

     "Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 
jumps at J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on 
Mora isn't an Imperial army, it belongs to Mora."

     Ahhh, that one is mine, and it's a whopper!  I misread the original 
post, assuming that we were talking about reenforcements during the Solomani 
Rim War and not for a proposed blockade and/or invasion of Trin.  Mea Culpa 
and mea pretty damn stupid too.
     Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could 
Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:55:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012596956.5627.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:

>      Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could
>  Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?

Yes (it's similar in distance to Trin), unlikely (it's about a hundred
parsecs), unlikely (it's well over a hundred parsecs).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:59:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>    "A single Keith-class Transport..."

Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...

AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:56:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:56:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com> <001d01c1aac7$22c16cc0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <025301c1ab62$f33b77b0$1f9e15ac@warrior>


> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
>

damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:51:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I refer to that font of wonder, Ground Forces."


Mr. Berry,

     You're superb riposte to my silly post is moot, sir.
     In my senility, I thought we were talking about Deneb and Marches 
sending reenforcements to the front during the Solomani Rim War and not 
their simply providing the muscle requested by the 3I IRS for their audit of 
Trin.
     My apologies.

     "A single Keith-class Transport..."

     What's your back-of-the-envelope calculation for Imperial UA's 
strategic mobility?  Could/would Mora send troops to a party on Vincennes?  
How about Vland?  Ilelish?
     We've seen in canon that fleet elements from Corridor show up in the 
Marches during the odd Frontier War.  Would UA formations travel that far 
too?  Would UA Corridor ship a field army into the Marches?  Or would the 
Imperial rather raise and train new formations in place?
     There must be some sort of costs vs. benefits graph at work here.  even 
with those wonderful "Keiths" toting combat ready brigades, there should 
still be a radius of action in effect.  How far off the leash would the 
originating UA allow their forces to slip?  When will the cost and time of 
moving UA formations across vast distances outweigh the cost and time of 
raising and training new formations in place?
     Everything being equal, I'd believe that formations with a high "bang 
to dTon" ratio would travel further; Sylean Rangers, Marines, commandos and 
raiders of various stripes, while the heavy, i.e. armored, units would a 
relatively smaller radius of action.
     Any thoughts?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 20:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:51:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <022501c1ab62$2d42c5e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

On that note,

I seem to remember reading in some peice of traveller material about a
marine SOP of filling empty areas with stands of mono-wire as a little
suprise for these guys...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)


> At 12:36 AM 02/01/02 EST, you wrote:
> >> So are all the teleporting shock troops also Soc-C
> >>  nobles?
> >
> >And since the main selection feature is teleporation skill, they are
often
> >not especially well-suited to other facets of combat.
> >
> >Don't forget that the Psi commandos are not just teleporters. Some are
> >clairvoyant, and some (the scramblers) are telekenitic
> >
> >"Sarge, what's it mean when the safety keeps resettting itself and the
pins
> >fall out of all my hand grenades at once?"
>
> Played in a 5FW based game once, and we were facing Zho Guards on Efate.
> We had gotten sick of that trick, so we fooled them.
>
> We took a large number of psi-shields and uniforms from dead comrades, and
> made dummies, and made positions for them.. even armed them.  (We had
> learned from experience that most of the CG seers weren't that good - a
> bone the Referee threw us)
>
> The Mind-raper scans, sees a platoon sized position with everybody on
> guard, a few people around a cook pot, etc.  Passes the word to the
assault
> team.  Thet zot in...
>
> ... and get wiped out by our preset explosives.  It's amazing what 20kg of
> TDX will do to a Zho platoon.  We then overran the Zho jumping-off point,
> and smashed it before they could react.
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
>   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:42:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:42:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <RELAY3pLdnoHW8Tf1Im00004b77@relay3.softcomca.com>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

> What? You must walk around with a bandolier, like that guy in "El 
> Mariachi" (the remake with Banderas, don't remember if that character 
> was in the original)

Well, not exactly.  My belt *does* get comments occasionally.  (What
with the Victronix and Leatherman on the right, and the Gerber Multi-
plier and a Surefire 9P on the left, and the SpyderCo clipped to my
left front pocket.  The S&W is a CHL piece.)  Sometimes I also carry
a Nokia cellphone and a PDA on my belt as well.  (And people say
there's no advantage to a big waistline.  Hah!!) :^)

> You are the only person I've ever met who carries a Champion all the 
> time...

I misspoke.  My Swiss Army knife is an Explorer, not a Champion.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:41:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:41:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F260axRsTsBIFbR5zIz00009f87@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>

At 08:33 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:

>     Mora could most definitely assist with operations against Trin.  Could 
>Mora assist with operations against Vincennes?  Vland?  Ilelish?

Not without a whole lot of time, but remember, there are Unified Armies and
Navy fleets in every subsector of the Imperium.  There is always somebody
close by to lend a hand (and several Field Armies)

Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
massive power of the Corridor fleet.  The only reason they got away with
that Ziru Sirkaa business in MT was that Lucan had drained the CF to fight
Dulinor.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:37:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:37:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <022501c1ab62$2d42c5e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201075922.006bdedc@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201133726.006ad3e0@mindspring.com>

At 03:51 PM 02/01/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On that note,
>
>I seem to remember reading in some peice of traveller material about a
>marine SOP of filling empty areas with stands of mono-wire as a little
>suprise for these guys...

Or a bunch of daisy-chained claymores linked to a laser eye trigger. *pop*,
ping, BOOM!

(Rose just wandered in, looked over my shoulder, and asked why we were
weaving Scottish greatswords. Great lady, but such a civilian!)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:57:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201135711.006ad0f0@mindspring.com>

At 08:51 PM 02/01/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>     "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
>     What's your back-of-the-envelope calculation for Imperial UA's 
>strategic mobility?  Could/would Mora send troops to a party on Vincennes?  
>How about Vland?  Ilelish?

The Imperial Army system as I see (and wrote) it makes that eventuality
unlikely.  Each subsector has an army of its own.  Each world has a
planetary defense force that it raises locally.  The size of the Imperial
force is roughly 5% of the combined strength of the planetary force.  The
Imperials have the advantage in technology and support.

>     We've seen in canon that fleet elements from Corridor show up in the 
>Marches during the odd Frontier War.  Would UA formations travel that far 
>too?  Would UA Corridor ship a field army into the Marches?  Or would the 
>Imperial rather raise and train new formations in place?

They ship in troops from closer places first, and also ask high-tech worlds
to commit their PDF troops to the fight (those colonial units from 5FW..
ad hoc units made up of the armies of different worlds.  Think of some of
the formations in WWII that had National Guard units from several states,
or some of the joint NATO exercises.)

If it got to the point that troops were needed from as far away as
Corridor, that means that Deneb has been stripped bare.  This is some
massive number of troops!

>     There must be some sort of costs vs. benefits graph at work here.  even 
>with those wonderful "Keiths" toting combat ready brigades, there should 
>still be a radius of action in effect.  How far off the leash would the 
>originating UA allow their forces to slip?  When will the cost and time of 
>moving UA formations across vast distances outweigh the cost and time of 
>raising and training new formations in place?

Most UA forces stay in their home subsectors, and rarely leave their home
sectors at all.  Usually, travel to a neighboring subsector is not to far
off the leash.  District 268 is garrisoned in several places by the armies
of Five Sisters and Glisten, and the Sword Worlds are occupied by the UA
Lunion.

The huge cost in raising a new force is in material.  Intrepids and
Sunburst Missile Sleds ain't cheap!  Training is also a problem.  This is
why the Imperium prefers to draw on the established PDFs of those worlds
that use similar or the same equipment for emergency replacements.

In a full-sector game of 5FW, we had a corps from Trin's Veil end up on
Riverland.  It just happened that when ever I needed troops for an assault,
that corps was in the right place.  We had a good laugh about their unit
nickname  "The Hold Warriors"  "If it's Twoday, it must be Regina"

>     Everything being equal, I'd believe that formations with a high "bang 
>to dTon" ratio would travel further; Sylean Rangers, Marines, commandos and 
>raiders of various stripes, while the heavy, i.e. armored, units would a 
>relatively smaller radius of action.

The Marines are your *get there now* force.  Most of the IMF is spread
around in the small, company sized Caen-class ships, traveling with fleet
elements so they can be quickly dispatched to deal with problems.  But the
Marines are a limited force, unless you want a specific, fairly limited
target destroyed (not held), you need the army.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 21:43:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:43:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station in the night?
References: <8190FFA3-15C4-11D6-AA01-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <3C5B0C1C.8000800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Dominic Mooney wrote:

> 
> On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
>> I've seen a lot of space objects through the years, and all with the
>> natural eye, no scope. From Vandenburg launches to orbiting satellites,
>> that lost cable and sail gismo, Mir and a shuttle chasing it as they flew
>> over the San Francisco Bay a few years back.
>>
>> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
>> brightest object in space.
> 
> 
> If you want to look at the ISS, there was a great website called 
> 'www.heavens-above.com' or something similar. It's a German based site 
> that will generate maps showing the position of the ISS and other 
> objects for your home location. Haven't been there for a while, and the 
> URL is on my work Windoze NT m/c.
> 
> Anyone got the correct URL.



Dunno about that one, but http://spaceflight.nasa.gov has links to siting data.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
> massive power of the Corridor fleet.

Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.

Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:46:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
References: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5B1AC9.509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
>>Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
>>massive power of the Corridor fleet.
>>
> 
> Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
> canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
> is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
> at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
> production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
> lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.
> 
> Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.
> 

However Corridor is of great strategic importance since it is the lowest 
jump route to the Spinward Marches, and is right up against the vargr 
frontier to Coreward, and, undefended, would open Vlands entire spinward 
flank to incursions.

Canonically, Lucan's first great mistake was to strip Corridor of it's 
fleet to fight Dulinor.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:26:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <F120kvAdxaQ6shalxyP00009f92@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020201142603.006a9ad8@mindspring.com>

At 12:59 PM 02/01/02 -0800, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>>    "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
>Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
>from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
>basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...

Does the phrase "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it" ring any
bells?

>AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

I'm re-reading Ambrose's D-Day right now, and from what I can tell, *any*
opposed landing, at any time, any place, at any tech level, is a nightmare.
 Hell, look at all the effort made to sucker the Germans into believing
that the assaults would come at Calais; and it was still a bloodbath.
Imagine if we hadn't fooled the Germans, or if Rommel had operational
control of the panzer divisions.

>From Ground Forces, page 63, regarding invasions:

"This type of mission is rarely undertaken due to the extreme risk of
casualties. Invasions require enormous support and massive numbers of
troops.  They are never undertaken lightly.  Only when the needs of the
Imperium absolutely require that the planet be completely subdued are
invasions considered."

snip

"To cut down on collateral, High Command prefers to use naval sieges, but
there eventually comes a point where the troops need to be sent in."

A "1-A" mission (invasion of a hi-pop, high-TL world) is the most dreaded
mission in the Imperium.  The last time it happened was in 1002, with Earth.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:49:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020201155517.3634.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> IIRC, the entire basis of most of the versions of trade and commerce
> rules indicate that the reason trade works so well is that hi pop
> worlds tend to be (A) higher tech and (B) less able to sustain
> themselves.

Yep, high-tech worlds are generally higher tech.  However, they are
also *far more* able to sustain themselves.  By the figures in Far
Trader, high-pop worlds tend to have trade in the 0.1% to 2% of GWP
range.  There is no analog on Earth for such a low trade figure.

Low-pop worlds have a much higher fraction of trade, almost
exclusively with their nearest high-pop neighbours.  If trade were to
be cut off with a high-pop world (and no other changes were to be
made), it is far more likely that most of the low-pop worlds nearby
would collapse economically with no significant effect on the target
of the embargoed world.

Such an outcome would be politically unacceptable.  In order to
prevent this, the Imperium would have to heavily subsidize and
substitute products from further away.  In the end, I think the cost
to the Imperium of such an action would be far higher than the cost to
Trin.

Note that the taxes paid by Trin to the Imperium are almost certainly
higher than its total trade volume!  It seems to me that the only
economic downside to Trin of refusing to pay taxes is the virtual
certainty of the protection racket ... er, Imperium ... coming in and
burning their house down.


> What would follow is seige.  I would expect negotiating envoys to be
> allowed through to try to come to an agreement.  After a given time,
> if it becomes obvious that the government will not comply, the Navy
> moves in.

It's really only that last threat that would cause any worry to Trin.


> For large "Trin" sized defense forces, it may be necessary to wait
> until several years for maintenance failures to help decimate the
> fleet,

"Maintenance failures"?  What makes you think that a high-tech,
high-pop industrial world with A-class starport facilities won't be
able and willing to *increase* military production in such a
situation?  I'd be more worried about maintenance failures in the
*Imperial* starships, who after all are a lot further from their
shipyards and resupply points.


It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
external trading partners after all...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:43:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:43:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho Commandos (I say Commando, you say Commandoe)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020201133726.006ad3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8805A14.22D63%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/1/02 1:37 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> Or a bunch of daisy-chained claymores linked to a laser eye trigger. *pop*,
> ping, BOOM!
> 
> (Rose just wandered in, looked over my shoulder, and asked why we were
> weaving Scottish greatswords. Great lady, but such a civilian!)

Well, you could have said M18A1 APERS Mine

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:55:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:55:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <3C5B1AC9.509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012604157.4086.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> However Corridor is of great strategic importance since it is the lowest 
> jump route to the Spinward Marches, and is right up against the vargr 
> frontier to Coreward, and, undefended, would open Vlands entire spinward 
> flank to incursions.

Vland's pretty subject to incursions anyway, not sure how much more vulnerable
it would be if Corridor fell.  Corridor's important to the Domain of Deneb, but
how important is the Domain of Deneb to the rest of the Imperium?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:58:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:58:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <20020201.175844.-108693.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> I just want to know..What group of Anarchist got together and 
> made up a symbol?

I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's basically an 'A'
superimposed on a circle.

(Or if you knew that and was just being sarcastic, ignore this post)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 22:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:52:55 -0500
Subject: A^3 & H2 (was Re: [TML] OT Enterprise Question)
Message-ID: <20020201.175844.-108693.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


> > A3 has a special place of film horror for me... I hadn't suffered
psychic
> > trauma like that since watching the original American release of
> > Highlander 2.
> 
> Ahhh! So you were the other person in the theatre, then. I hope my 
> screams as I gouged my eyes out with a box of Hot Tamales from the 
> snack bar didn't disturb you much...

Actually, your tortured suffering momentarily distracted me from the
sheer awfulness that as before me on the screen, so don't think that your
suffering was entirely in vain...


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 12:32:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:32:50 -0000
Subject: [TML] DGP material
References: <001201c1ab08$8bf8a1e0$0200a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <000401c1ab77$826e2900$5562893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 31 January 2002 14:49
Subject: Re: [TML] DGP material


> Michael Barry wrote:
> > I've been following the discussion with interest. However the
> > idea of buying the rights from RS then turning over to the public
> > domain basically rewards the guy's atrocious behaviour.
>
> I have a question about the DGP Traveller properties ... but I do
> not want to reignite the copyright flamewar here.  Given that the
> DGP properties are devaluing over time, and recognising  that  RS
> wants silly money for them, what (in the opinion of the list)  is
> a *fair and reasonable* market value for those properties today?

I heard a rumour once that his price wasn'r money, but the development of
one of his ideas within teh game world. What was that idea, and was it
really so objectionable?

--
Fabian
It ain't the money, it's the job title.
It ain't the job title, it's what you do.
It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.
That's what it's all about.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:01:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:01:57 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question (long and dry,
 alas)
In-Reply-To: <001701c1aae5$c0d37200$107379a5@trentfs>
References: <200201312344.g0VNiQe17231@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020201175348.025e7888@mail.earthlink.net>

At 09:59 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, Trent wrote:
>Neither of these are too convincing, but what was (at least for me) was the
>results of a couple of quick back-calculations on standard designs from the
>Imperial Encyclopedia, specifically the Type R subsidized merchant and the
>Gig.  Both are pricy high tech designs with shoddy computers installed (Type
>R: TL 15, MCr 67.5, computer 1/bis; Gig: TL 14, MCr 13.78, computer 0).
>
>Computer 0 has a CP multiplier of 5 and a mx. CP input of 500.  The Gig has
>a CP requirement of (roughly) 1900.  Per the IE writeup it has installed a
>headsup display and 282 'holodynamic links' (aside: in yet another apparent
>editorial gaffe, ALL the standard ships have 'holodynamic links' even though
>such a thing doesn't exist -- there's 'dynamic link' and 'holographic link'
>but no 'holodynamic').  Assuming holodynamic to be dynamic we get an
>installed CP total of 332, multiplied by the computer = 1660, which is
>probably about right.
>
>Computer 1/bis has a CP multiplier of 15 and a max. CP input of 7500.  The
>Type R has a CP requirement of approx. 10,000.  Per IE it has headsup x 3
>and holodynamic x 403 -- total CP 553, multiplied = 8295, again probably
>about right.
>
>Note that in both of these cases, the required CP of the craft greatly
>exceed the 'max CP input' of the computers, but the number of (unmultiplied)
>CP from installed control panels fall within it.  While this doesn't settle
>the issue 100% (it's more common that not for published designs to be at
>least slightly broken, and not uncommon at all for them to be REALLY
>broken), it does lend pretty strong evidence to the notion that the 'max CP
>input' entry is supposed to apply to CP from installed control panels BEFORE
>they are multiplied by the computer. QED.
>
>So, does that mean that all General Turokan's ship designs are broken and
>need to be redone?  No, it just means that a lot of them probably could've
>gotten away with smaller computers than he installed.  Not that installing
>the cheapest or worst possible computer is necessarily a sound design
>choice.  In fact, the opposite is probably more often true.  But it does
>allow more options, and I suppose that makes it better in the end.
>
>Trent

One thing I learned a long time ago, is not to use the standard ships in MT 
to interpret the rules.  Those are straight conversions from Book 2 or 
5.  If you add the volume of the components up, they do not match.  If in 
Book 2 or 5 they said it needed a model 1/bis computer, that is what it got 
in the MT writeup, whether or not it followed the rules.  A good example of 
what I am talking about is the X-boat.  In the conversion to MT, what 
happened to all the space taken up by the fuel (MT used 5%*(jump +1) 
instead of 10% * jump).

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  1 23:57:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sierra City
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Hi Kris:

We are up for Sierra City 23-24 March; thanks for inviting us.  Let's bring
skis with us from here this time, to save driving to Truckee.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:22:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:22:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sierra City
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B53@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Watch your send there Glenn.  You just sent that to the TML ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:57 PM
To: Traveller-Digest
Subject: [TML] Sierra City 


Hi Kris:

We are up for Sierra City 23-24 March; thanks for inviting us.  Let's bring
skis with us from here this time, to save driving to Truckee.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:29:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012601881.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020201134109.006ab124@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020201182752.026114a0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 02:18 PM 2/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
> >
> > Vland, especially, would be in trouble since it is right next to the
> > massive power of the Corridor fleet.
>
>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
>canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
>is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
>at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
>production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
>lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.
>
>Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant.

Each of the coreward subsectors of Corridor had 2 imperial subsector fleets 
instead of 1.  This is per one of the MT books.

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 00:43:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:43:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

>> "Maintenance failures"?  What makes you think that a high-tech,
>> high-pop industrial world with A-class starport facilities won't be
>> able and willing to *increase* military production in such a
>> situation?  I'd be more worried about maintenance failures in the
>> *Imperial* starships, who after all are a lot further from their
>> shipyards and resupply points.
>>
>> It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has
>> no external trading partners after all...
>>
>> - Tim

It is my opinion that a HT/HP world such as Trin is not likely to just
suddenly up and stop paying... there would be a number of stages...

1) Unrest... "This just aint fair":  The population/government/leadership
start to feel upset with Imperial taxes and start to complain to the powers
that be (subsector/sector Impie reps).

2) Despair... "No-one is listening": The powers that be refuse/decline to
change the tax situation that is causing the unrest

3) Anger... "Someone ought to do something": the Trinnies are mad and demand
a change...  now!

4) Planning... "The Impies aren't going to just lie there": Trin's
government starts to clandestinely plan to oppose the Impies (and here is
the fun part)  Training schedule for Trin military units is "increased' and
repair/maintenance schedules are ramped up. maybe an increase in recruitment
ads to bring manpower up to maximum levels. Certain areas of commerce are
inspected and "improved" (looks like we import less food than we need, maybe
the gov should invest in shrimp farms) money is secreted in and/or out of
the system because Trin has probably seen the Impie playbook on this sort of
thing.

5) Rebellion...

Of course, Impie spies are probably looking for these kinds of signs as
well...

(Sir, I have a report from one of our assets in the Veil, says that the
385th SDB squadron has doubled it's combat readiness training...)

Geoff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:01:25 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: (null)
Message-ID: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>

In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
the standard universe.

I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
an import utility from Galactic data files.

I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
with such data.  My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:02:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:02:01 EST
Subject: [TML] aging
Message-ID: <89.12daa9fd.298c9489@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 03:17:21 GMT Standard Time, n2sami@attbi.com 
writes:


> When I was a young lad first stepping into my classic Traveller shoes
> those aging rule sure made sense. Anybody, my reasoning went, that made
> it through 6 full terms would be a decrepit oldster that should be
> retired from adventure and thus discouraged by the player creation
> system.
> 
> I'm looking at 40 without a telescope now and I must scream out, "No
> Fair!"
> I can't play an adventurer my own age unless that adventurer was a MUCH
> more vital physical creature than I was in those tender years. And I
> jumped from planes, slept in mud, and earned a Ranger tab.
> 
> I better go drink my cup of warn milk and go to bed now. The weather is
> changing and I don't want to have to lean on my cane tomorrow. ;-)
> 

I've always wondered why ageing wasn't effected by the two things that are 
known to have an impact: wealth and technology. Surely rich characters from 
high tech worlds should be able to delay ageing rolls while poor characters 
from low tech worlds are subject to them sooner?

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:04:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <d2.1324987f.298c9536@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 15:39:00 GMT Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com 
writes:


> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to 
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings 
> under 
> the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 
> LKW
> 

I always admired Emma Goldman, a women who failed to find work as a 
prostitute and managed to get deported from both the USSR and the USA because 
of her politics.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:26:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:26:27 EST
Subject: [TML] Murder
Message-ID: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/02/02 10:19:10 GMT Standard Time, ptrevor@rctrevor.com 
writes:


> > Whilst engaging in the highly OT discussion of anarchy it occured
> > to me that any interstellar multispecies operation like the 3I
> > has a major problem when it comes to murder.
> > 
> > How does it frame a law in a way that offers equal protection to
> > all? It's harder than you think, since new species are contacted
> > on a regular basis and sentience alone cannot be used (since that
> > might let in robots or computers). Biological sentience could be
> > used but what about biocomputers? How do they differ from their
> > mechanical counterparts?
> 
> It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
> worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
> (with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
> is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
> against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
> jurisdictions ... they could also be  used  as  "suggestions"  to
> planetary  legislatures.  The  3I  even  tolerates  open  warfare
> between member states provided that civilian  casulties  are  not
> "excessive" (remember the Imperial Rules of War for mercs?).
> 
> Before the complications of new species,  robots,  and  computers
> you'll have local variations in law on:
> - Abortion
> - Euthanasia
> - Death penalty
> - Duelling
> - What constitutes self-defence
> - Clone rights (both full maturity clones, and  non-aware  clones
>   grown for spare parts)
> - Gladatorial games and dangerous sports
> - Responsibility for accidental death
> - Withholding medical aid on financial grounds
> - and colateral damage from local wars
> 
> The 3I is *not* homogenous, in certain respects it resembles  the
> UN with teeth.  (And this *inequality* is  what  initially  drove
> Dulinor!)
> 
> Regards PLST
> 

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder 
definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm going from 
memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)

"Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day, causes the 
death of the product of a human mother"

Clearly this definition can be used for most of the citizens of the Imperium 
but not all. Although I don't doubt the correctness of your description of 
the function of the 3I or the variability of local laws there are at least 
two good reasons for an Imperial definition of murder:

1) Some killings will occur aboard Imperial vessels or on directly ruled 
worlds. The local ruler here is the Imperium, so it must have a suitable 
definition of murder. This would also include killings that take place in 
starports.

2) Diplomatic considerations; imagine first contact with a powerful 
interstellar race. War with them would be a bad thing but one of your scouts 
gets drunk and kills one in a brawl aboard an Imperial vessel. The aliens 
demand the perpertrator is tried for murder. If no clear definition of murder 
exists then it may be impossible to meet their demand.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:42:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:42:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Zhodani
Message-ID: <149.8d35806.298c9df6@aol.com>

Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> writes:

>   Hmm? I thought that the Zhodani nobility is not inheritable at
>   all and can only be gained though personal qualification. The
>   inheritable noble rank is something that exists only in the
>   decadent Imperium.

 The historical data suggests some level of inheritance, and (to commit the 
usual Traveller sin of assuming life follows the rulebook) it is possible to 
start a character at one of the two lowest Noble ranks (Soc 11 or 12), with 
no stat- or Psi-based mechanic for getting there if you started as a Prole 
(Prole kids with a high enough Psi become Intendants (Soc 10) not nobles). 
Now, there *might* be the occasional Doogie Howser kid who tests into 
Intendant status and earns his way into nobility before 18, but if this were 
the norm it would probably have been mentioned somewhere. As it is I prefer 
to assume that Soc 11 and 12 are inheritable, and are in fact what drives 
Intendants to strive towards Noble status: passing your success along to at 
least one kid. This follows from the prole-based ambition that is common in 
the Consulate: A persons ambitions for advancement center on his children. 
All Proles are citizens of their homeworlds. Only a lucky few become true 
citizens of the Consulate as a whole

 As for inheritance leading to Intendant status,this too follows from the 
rules, as to *attain* the status (if born a Prole) you must have a Psi of 9+, 
but if you rolled that Soc 10 to begin with, your Psi is what it is.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 01:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:58:57 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
Message-ID: <8c.13713a08.298ca1e1@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/1/02 5:07:59 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned
>in canon somewhere?

Rebellion Sourcebook and (i think) FSotSI. 

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 02:27:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:27:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202020105.g1215B704115@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16WptD-0008KG-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I've always wondered why ageing wasn't effected by the two things that
> are known to have an impact: wealth and technology. Surely rich
> characters from high tech worlds should be able to delay ageing rolls
> while poor characters from low tech worlds are subject to them sooner?

One house rule for MT that I've seen and really like is to have tech 
level modifiers for aging.  

Pre-Stellar (TL 6-8) is taken as 0 modifier.   

Early Stellar (TL 9-10) characters gets +1 to all aging rolls. 

Average Stellar (TL 11-13) get +2 to all aging rolls.

High Stellar (TL 14-16) characters get +3 to all aging rolls. 

Although it never came up, I imagine there would be similar 
penalties for being from an Industrial or Pre-Industrial TL (-1 or -2 I'd 
imagine).  I'd not thought about Wealth, but using MT, I'd give a -1 
to aging rolls for characters with a Soc of 4 or less a +0 to aging 
roll for characters with a Soc of 5-9 and +1 to aging roll for 
characters with a Soc of 10+.

This would mean that a poor person from a pre-industrial society 
would die *very* young (-3 to all aging rolls), but that only makes 
sense.

Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a 
very reasonable fashion.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 03:59:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:59:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm with Frank Chadwick:

"In a word, we reject all legislation, all authority, and all
privileged, licensed and legal powers over us, . . ." Michael
Alekxandrovich Bakunin (1814-1876)

Although wasn't Bakunin a political nihilist really?

ObTrav: So much for CANON!

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 04:47:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:47:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEICCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c1aba4$c39df5e0$2f7de40c@loki>

Glen. So that's real life. Now roll up a classic Traveller character as
old as you are complete with aging rolls. Strength 1, Constitution 1...


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:13:14 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
 in the night?
In-Reply-To: <8190FFA3-15C4-11D6-AA01-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202020911490.21566-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
> brightest object in space.

Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
space? Isn't it quite bright, too?

(Of course, I assume that you speak of objects as we see them from the
Earth's surface.)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:11:12 +0000
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <F229BgD2nfTXKcHI0lq0000a55b@hotmail.com>

From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

     "(in fact, looking at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the 
world, not the sector) has production comparable to the entire Corridor 
sector.  Corridor's a pretty lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or 
Mora look small."

     "Now, Dagudashaag and Lishun are significant."


Mr. Jackson,

     And yet, Lishun is supposedly occupied by the Vargr after the sector 
fleet is withdrawn.  And that despite all the colonial squadrons still 
there, not to mention the PDFs and a 12 subsector strong UA Lishun.
     Just another example of the goofiness surrounding MT's Alien 
Incursions.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, Chairman Emeritus of C.O.R.V.E.*

* - The Committee to Oxbow the Rebellion and Viral Eras

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:22:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:22:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
Message-ID: <200202020722.XAA00085@molly.iii.com>

"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:

>On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is the
>> brightest object in space.
>
>Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
>space? Isn't it quite bright, too?

Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:46:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
Message-ID: <20020201.234621.-247513.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:22:40 -0800 (PST) Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@iii.com> writes:
> "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
> 
> >On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 10:18 ,  generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> The ISS will cover a huge area in todays terms, and already is 
> the brightest object in space.
> >
> >Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us 
> in>space? Isn't it quite bright, too?
> 
> Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

Ok guys, you got me.
I should have added "man made" before object. Geesh!

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 07:48:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:48:52 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] star light star bright how bright is that space station
In-Reply-To: <200202020722.XAA00085@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202020947520.21566-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >Hm, isn't there yet the object called 'Sun' in the vicinity of us in
> >space? Isn't it quite bright, too?
> Also the moon.  Still, brighter than venus is a big step

Well, yes, and considering that Venus gets regularily reported as an UFO,
ISS is quite bright.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 10:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:16:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
References: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOEEDOCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>
Message-ID: <20020202211643.A8806@freeman.little-possums.net>

Geoff @ MotionBlur wrote:
> It is my opinion that a HT/HP world such as Trin is not likely to
> just suddenly up and stop paying... there would be a number of
> stages...

Certainly.


> 1) Unrest... "This just aint fair": The
> population/government/leadership start to feel upset with Imperial
> taxes and start to complain to the powers that be (subsector/sector
> Impie reps).

I don't think even that would happen often.  The high-pop worlds must
generally feel that their taxes are spent wisely, or the Imperium
would be in a lot more trouble than it is.

Although, it does seem a bit odd that the Imperium is stated to exist
primarily to promote trade, yet the taxes collected are at least an
order of magnitude higher than the total trade volume!  That's why in
My Traveller Universe, trade volumes for high-pop worlds are about
3-30 times higher than Far Trader figures.


[...]
> 5) Rebellion...
> 
> Of course, Impie spies are probably looking for these kinds of signs as
> well...

No doubt.  Though in a very real sense the Imperium *is* the high-pop
worlds (plus a collection of stragglers).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 12:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:11:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>

where have you found budgets for the navy? I've been trying to figure out how big
my fleet really is. What is the budget canonaicly(sp?)

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >Hello Anthony,
> >  In order to answer your question regarding Trin, I think a couple of
> >things have to be put into perspective.  The first thing to point out, is
> >that Trin does have a major economic powerhouse at its fingertips.  If Trin
> >were to decide to instigate an act of rebellion - which non-payment of
> >taxes is, it would be considered to be in rebellion.
>
> It might be worth considering some lesser actions, as well; a debate over
> the amount of taxation, for example (say, Trin claims that its GWP
> is lower than what the local Imperial Noble thinks).
>
> >  A few thoughts come to mind at this point.  If the Navy of Trin is that
> >powerful - then something went horribly wrong in the sense that the power
> >of a single world has been able to eclipse the general government that the
> >Imperium wants to see emplaced.
>
> Which is more or less the problem.  Given the canon budgets for the IN,
> the colonial fleet, and the system defense fleet, this is a common situation.
>
> >  Having said that - the first thing I can think of is that all assets of
> >Trin would be frozen on worlds other than Trin.  Secondly, all nationals of
> >Trin would likely be considered to be subjects of a world in rebellion and
> >incarcerated.  Thirdly, all commercial interaction with Trin would be
> >placed on hold until such a time as the rebellion has been dealt with.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not clear how much this matters; worlds in Traveller
> seem to be rather insular.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 12:33:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:33:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
References: <ML-2.3.1012597192.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C5BDC8D.AA6494E0@mindspring.com>

See Saving Private Ryan. Talk to someone who was there. ( If they'll talk about
it. My Uncle wouldn't ) Read Starship troopers. Yes its hell, but the
politicians only see their hold slipping away. Its a lot easier to send in the
marines than to report to  Empress Iphegenia that a world is in rebellion and
you don't know what to do.


Anthony Jackson wrote:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >    "A single Keith-class Transport..."
>
> Incidentally, what happens to a Keith-class transport when it's hit by fire
> from a deep meson site (or even fire from a meson bay buried in someone's
> basement)?  I don't recall it having that impressive of meson screens...
>
> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 09:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:43:04 -0000
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
References: <B87F2F45.22A8B%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c1abe7$35c3bd20$d47a893e@fabian>

> From: "daumen@mindspring.com" <rdaumen@mindspring.com>

> > Civil Law: The group of laws which deal with suing the pants off your
> > fellow countryman. The higher this level, the bigger the punitive
damages
> > you can claim. Multiply this rating by 1d3 to determine the % tax
taken by
> > the government in such lawsuits. Lawyers may take a similar amount as
> > their fee in successful cases. Ludicrous lawsuits allow for penalties
> > other than financial, and/or total unlimited financial destruction, in
> > case you were wondering.
>
> Can citizens obtain legal insurance?

Don't see why not. Of course, it carries a premium for travel to high-LL
worlds, and may not be valid for worlds with ludicrous lawsuits. There's a
reason why 'world travel' insurance policies have a premium if you want it
to include the USA.

> > 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
> >     and enforced only by private means.
>
>    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.

I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.

>    9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
>  10 - Punitive strict liability.

Is this where a doctor or other professional carer causes injury? I'm not
familiar with legal jargon.

> > 11 - Ludicrous lawsuits for breach of contract.
> > 12 - Ludicrous lawsuits for injury caused by negligence.
> >      Punitive lawsuits for material loss caused by negligence.
> >      This is a lawyer's paradise, and an amber zone.
> >
> I really like the restitutive/punitive/ludricous steps.

Thanks. It should be borne in mind that although a ludicrous case will
often reach court, most of the time, the judge would decide that the
appropriate penalty should be punitive, and punitive lawsuits would still
be common. Ludicrous lawsuits should be newspaper-worthy and/or campaign
hooks (in an appropriate campaign where the PCs are all lawyers), not
humdrum. Likewise, at mid-high law levels, a punitive case may often be
downgraded to restitutive when the final verdict is given by the judge.


OBbizarre mental image: Ally McBeal, transposed on a LL-12 TL-12 world.
Imagine a Traveller campaign with that premise.

[Man walks into a lawyer's office, says nothing, buts hands the lawyer a
small file. Lawyer reads it with concern.

OK, mister. Let's see if I understand this right. You committed adultery,
and now she's suing you for your *CENSORED*?

Man, says nothing, but nods.

Right. Let's see, this is a tough case. But I think we can plea-bargain it
down to your left arm and a divorce. Unless of course you want to make a
counter-claim for emotional distress caused by this lawsuit. Tell me, did
she live up to her marital vows? That might help in forming another
counter-claim.
]

Ok, maybe that campaign would be a bad idea.


> Societies with 7+ will have trouble finding off-world trading parties,
and
> their overall trade should be below average.

You know, I imagined the USA to be a good example of a LL-7/8 country on
this scale when I wrote it :)

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 13:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:37:43 EST
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
Message-ID: <bc.20e75cfb.298d45a7@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 13:07:48 GMT Standard Time, 
fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk writes:


> > > 0 - Private contracts are effectively the only form of civil law,
> > >     and enforced only by private means.
> >
> >    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> >    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> 
> I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
> for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
> non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
> the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
> lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
> for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
> of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
> intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
> criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
> most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
> 

I know that there have been private prosecutions for murder in the UK. The 
Stephen Lawrence case is perhaps the best known but I believe the families of 
the victims of the Omagh bomb are trying to raise the money to do it.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:08:05  0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>

Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
on *me*!) :^)

    - Mark C.

Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament to be carrying. I
 carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.


Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:27:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <200202011634.g11GYbt00975@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1abf5$d6bc81e0$7d4e8a90@computer>

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.

I have a fairly strong feeling that this story may not be true.

There are plenty of good stories about Bakunin which are true, though.  He
was a total headcase.

Apart from anything else, he had a lovely fondness for conspiracies.  His
model of anarchist organisation considered of a strictly hierarchical
international secret society that would manipulate the masses into achieving
anarchist goals.  At the head of this secret society would be a single
faceless supreme leader, chosen by the inner circle of the conspiracy...
Unkind and cynical people suggested that Bakunin might have had a suitable
candidate in mind for this position.

In case anyone wants to use this information to engage in a spot of
anarchist baiting, I should point out that most present day anarchists
aren't Bakuninists.  In fact, they're mostly just kids, with very little
grasp of politics beyond the level of "the way things are now is wrong".

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 14:41:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:41:14  0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <PPOKGAIONGELDBAA@angelfire.com>


Tim wrote that:
Low-pop worlds have a much higher fraction of trade, almost
exclusively with their nearest high-pop neighbours.  If trade were to
be cut off with a high-pop world (and no other changes were to be
made), it is far more likely that most of the low-pop worlds nearby
would collapse economically with no significant effect on the target
of the embargoed world.

Such an outcome would be politically unacceptable.  In order to
prevent this, the Imperium would have to heavily subsidize and
substitute products from further away.  In the end, I think the cost
to the Imperium of such an action would be far higher than the cost to
Trin.

Note that the taxes paid by Trin to the Imperium are almost certainly
higher than its total trade volume!  It seems to me that the only
economic downside to Trin of refusing to pay taxes is the virtual
certainty of the protection racket ... er, Imperium ... coming in and
burning their house down.


I appreciate that this all tems form acnon material. 
However, if a system does not suffer when cut off from the Imperium, why would it bother signing up in the first place? It does make the Imperium seem a mostly pointless organisation that extracts money from people to do appproximately buggerall in response.

I'd say that inorder for the Imperium to be a viable concept and one that the high pop woulds would sign up to there has to be some benefit to membership. Therefore there has to be a detrimental effect from being cut off. It seems this goes in the face of the canon (I've not read Far Trader) but if it does then there seems to be a glaring hole in the canon.

Awaiting flame
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 10:25:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:25:09 -0000
Subject: [TML] Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
References: <3C59E92D.9200.47FDC3@localhost> <00a101c1aa83$95b9bd20$5c71893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <000201c1abfa$e1d6a9c0$0200a8c0@imogen>

Fabian wrote:
> As for public monitoring/cameras, the transparently bogus rationale
> is that if reduces violent crime against person, or at least fear
> of that. I was specifically thinking of integrated camera networks
> that are linked to police observation centres, not merely a bunch
> of cameras that individual companies have enabled, even if those
> non-integrated cameras have much the same coverage. Even given
> that, the UK does deserve an 8 on this scale, and is working hard
> to reach a 9. I don't think that those cameras in NZ are all
> linked to a central observation point and controlled by the police?
> They really here are in England.

Hmmm, last year (or  was  it  the  year  before)  police  in  the
Lewisham Council area (London) were running a pilot scheme  where
all the high street cameras were  linked  to  an  automated  face
recognition system.  At  the  time  they  were  reporting  a  25%
success rate at detecting known trouble akers entering the  area.
Does anyone know what became of this?  Is  it  being  implemented
elsewhere?

ObTrav: Just an observation, on worlds with a high LL  you  might
find the crossing points of the starport  XT-line  more  resemble
Checkpoint Charlie than an  ordinary  airport  passport  control.
The Imperials on one side, the locals on the  other  ...  looking
for political dissidents trying to flee and seek asylum.

Regards PLST







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 15:04:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:04:35 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16WptD-0008KG-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> very reasonable fashion.
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>
Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
110...

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 15:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:56:18 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020202085618.A20573@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
> Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
> with such data.

Fairly close.  The library stores & reads data in an XML-like format.
It's not Mr. Preston's format, and in fact to support that format
would no doubt require a bit of reworking.  Which wouldn't necessarily
be a Bad Thing...

The library itself is actually finished (or rather, my first cut at
the features a library needs is finished).  I am now trying to write a
frontend using GNOME/gtk+/libtrav/libtravguile/C/guile.

Incidentally, if anyone here has experience with gtk+, please give me
a holler.  I'm having a deuce of a time with GtkCTrees.

> My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
> to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
> individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
> with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
> should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.

I actually did something similar with Perl & MySQL about a year ago.
It was fairly slow, but that was no doubt due to my data
representation.  It was very cool, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:05:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:59:25PM -0800
References: <d7.128cd36a.298c0e51@aol.com> <000b01c1ab9e$0136de00$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020202090522.B20573@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:59:25PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> 
> "In a word, we reject all legislation, all authority, and all
> privileged, licensed and legal powers over us, . . ." Michael
> Alekxandrovich Bakunin (1814-1876)

The correct answer to which is, `Fine, fine.  No trouble here.  In
fact, we'll help you out.  We remove from you the protection of the
State, and the yoke of the State.  We do hereby declare you an outlaw,
to neither be guarded nor punished by Our power.'

Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:23:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202112156.00b81e60@mail.charter.net>

As long as you are a law abiding member of society, as much as makes you 
feel comfortable.

Personally, I carry the Gerber multi-plier because I prefer it to the 
Leatherman.
I wouldn't carry both, but that's just me.

At 02:08 PM 2/2/2002 +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
>of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
>Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
>an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
>on *me*!) :^)
>
>     - Mark C.
>
>Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament 
>to be carrying. I
>  carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and 
> a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.
>
>
>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
>armament to carry round in public?
>---
>Shan Andy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 16:49:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:49:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>; from shanhat@angelfire.com on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 02:08:05PM +0000
References: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020202094930.F20573@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> > Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time of
> > the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> > Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and an
> > S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin' on
> > *me*!) :^)
>
> Have you considered professional help?  That's a scary amount of
> armament to be carrying.  I carry one swiss army knife and that's
> because it has a bottle opener and a crokscrew.  I feel over armed a
> lot of the time.

I dunno, most of it's not really armament.  The SpyderCo most likely
is, but the Gerber, Leatherman and Victorinox are tools.  The .38
certainly is.

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level
> of armament to carry round in public?

Given my druthers, a Leatherman on the back of my belt, a Beretta .40
on my hip and a dagger on my leg.  And a little Victorinox pocketknife
on my keyring--you know, the itty-bitty letter opener one with the
nail file and scissors.  I don't particularly care for concealed guns,
for several reasons, but I do support concealed knives (e.g. one on
the leg, possibly another under the arm or in a pocket).  In a more
perfect world it'd be permissible to carry swords and daggers on one's
belt--but as more than one philosopher has noted, it's a most
imperfect world indeed.

What do I typically carry?  Generally just my itty-bitty
pocketknife/keyfob.  At home I tend to carry my .40 on my belt if I
remember to put it on (I'm not atm, but that's because I'm wearing no
pants atm).  In my car I keep a little Beretta .22 in the glove
compartment.  I've a sword in my closet at home, but realistically I'd
rather take my chances with my .40.

I'm glad to say that I've not once needed a single one of my weapons.
But, in the immortal words of Sir Clarence Worley, `It's better to
have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and not have it.'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 17:54:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:54:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B88167CA.22EB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/2/02 2:08 PM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
> of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
> Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
> an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
> on *me*!) :^)
> 
> - Mark C.
> 
> Have you considered professional help? That's a scary amount of armament to be
> carrying. I
> carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and a
> crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> armament to carry round in public?
> ---

Usually I carry my Colt Mustang .380 and a knife.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:47:55 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B88167CA.22EB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGEKHCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> > armament to carry round in public?
> > ---
>
> Usually I carry my Colt Mustang .380 and a knife.
>
> Tod
> --
A Victorinox CyberTool, as carrying real _armament_ can get you in much
trouble over here in Germany and its quite handy to have a PC
assembling/dissassembling unit attached to ones belt.

Of course, I'd like to carry a taser, but they aren't available here, let
alone allowed.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:47:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:47:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>

Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:

>Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
>of the day.  (As I'm typing this, I wear a SpyderCo, a Gerber
>Multi-plier, a Leatherman classic, a Victorinox Champion, and
>an S&W titanium N-frame .38 special.  The Boy Scouts got nuttin'
>on *me*!) :^)
>
>     - Mark C.
>
>Have you considered professional help?

Constantly.  At every opportunity, I train under self-defense instructors 
that are *much* more qualified than I. :^)

>  That's a scary amount of armament to be carrying.

Aside from the S&W, I consider the rest of the items to be tools (including 
the SpyderCo.)

>I carry one swiss army knife and that's because it has a bottle opener and 
>a crokscrew. I feel over armed a lot of the time.

Ain't a free society grand? :^)

>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
>armament to carry round in public?

To reiterate my "tools" comment (above), I carry both the Multi-plier and 
the Leatherman because I've found myself in numerous situations where I 
needed 2 pairs of pliers to perform some task. I carry the Victronix 
primarily for the scissors, the corkscrew, and the small knife blade.  I 
carry a Surefire 9P flashlight because... well... it's a flashlight.  As 
for the SpyderCo, it's primary function is as a letter and box opener, but 
the main reason I carry it is in case of an emergency when I might need to 
get through a stuck seatbelt.  That half-serrated blade goes through nylon 
webbing like a hot knife through butter.

The S&W, OTOH, is strictly for self defense.  I think of it as the fire 
extinguisher that I hope I never have to use.



         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 18:59:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sinbad Sam)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:59:47 -0600
Subject: Re[2]: [TML] Mora up-port image
In-Reply-To: <B87CCB28.225AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B87CCB28.225AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1932540184.20020202125947@sbcglobal.net>

Hello Tod,

29 Jan 2002, 11:56:56 PM, you wrote:

>> PS: Tod, what's the widest diameter of Regina up?
>> 

TG> To be perfectly frank, I don't know.  I think I'll sit down and work on this
TG> right away.  Any suggestions on rules to build a highport?

TG> Tod

The only rules that specifically address this is GURPS:Starports, but you get
some ideas from Starports and then use what ever rules YTU uses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:08:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:08:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
>Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
>it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...

The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
turning down his radio...



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:20:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #116
In-Reply-To: <200202020105.g1215B704115@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Bog.  I assume that the massive power of the corridor fleet is mentioned in
>canon somewhere?  Certainly, it doesn't follow from economics; Corridor sector
>is lightly populated and of unimpressive average tech level (in fact, looking
>at my data, it looks like Vland by itself (the world, not the sector) has
>production comparable to the entire Corridor sector.  Corridor's a pretty
>lightweight sector, and Vland makes Trin or Mora look small.

According to _Rebellion_ Corridor has 16 regular fleets stationed in its 9
coreward subsectors (and none in the one that is administered from Vland,
btw). In addition there is evidence that another four full fleets are also
stationed there (the text is somewhat confused). My take is that the 34
fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are raised and maintained by the
worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat below the Imperial average in
strength) while the 20 Corridor fleets are mostly maintained (at
considerable cost) from further in towards the Imperial core (Vland
propably supplies a lot of the ships and men).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:26:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202142603.019df7b0@mail.charter.net>

Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!

At 08:08 PM 2/2/2002 +0100, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Robert A. Uhl writes:
> >Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
> >it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...
>
>The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
>turning down his radio...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 19:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:43:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:08:32PM +0100
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020202124309.A21925@4dv.net>

On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:08:32PM +0100, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
> >Thus the law cannot make the outlaw turn down his radio.  But nor will
> >it punish his neighbours for cutting him into ribbons for doing so...
> 
> The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
> turning down his radio...

Stranger things have happened.  Look into the reasons for babies being
killed...  It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless, don't you
think?  It also points out the absurdity of the anarchist position.
If Bakunin is free of the law, he can take what he wishes from
storeowners to feed and clothe himself.  They, being unable to take
him to law, could steal back--but he'd just steal back again.  The
only way to end the petty annoyance is to kill him.

Think about it: if you've a neighbour who cannot be made to move, who
cannot be fined, who cannot be imprisoned, who persists in playing
loud music, erecting a charnel house and dumps offal in your yard, how
long would it be until someone ended the nuisance permanently?
Perhaps one would move instead of slaying him.  But imagine that every
neighbour is like that.  Imagine that there is no escape.  The only
solution, the only way to begin to ensure an appropriate life, then,
is to kill the offenders.

This is the glory of law: that it punishes appropriately.  While the
final recourse of law is as it ever has been--death--it so very rarely
needs to go that far.  Thus the nuisance is hit with a punishment in
proportion to his crime, and is not made to die for his error.  This
is a great mercy.

Without law, there is only force.  And force unrestrained very quickly
escalates to the ultimate force.  Thus the error of anarchy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I sat around during the design phase going `this is going to suck so
badly that we're going to have to hold onto desks to stop us from being
drawn into the vortex.'                              --Chris Saunderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 20:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:11:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] build a highport
Message-ID: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Guys,

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:59:47 -0600 Sinbad Sam <sinbad@sbcglobal.net>
writes:
> Hello Tod,
> 
> TG>  Any suggestions on rules to build a highport?
> 
> The only rules that specifically address this is GURPS:Starports, 
> but you get some ideas from Starports and then use what ever
>  rules YTU uses.


I came up with a way to begin and expand highport construction in MTU. I
base it on two Stat Trek views.

1. A ship that has locking clamps like the Enterprise D's saucer section
being able to separate, though I'd place several connecting points around
the ship.

2. The Jupiter station of ST:V where Dr. Zimmerman was preparing to die.
It looked like six saucer sections, two stacks of three with connections
all around.

This for me at least, allowed me to send a 1,000dton  jump ship to a new
system, and establish an orbital presence. As the system grew another
1,000dton ship could arrive, dock, and with minimal work double its mass.
I can continue this process indefinitely. 

Constructions at home, or wherever the best place to build is. You ship
along what you need, refit areas that require it, but the station is
intact, defendable, and ready for use on arrival. Minor things like
platforms, and solar panels can be added as each ship arrives. A few
modular cutters to bring connecting walkways and elevators, and you've
got a fine station.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:34:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJKDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
>> very reasonable fashion.
>>
>> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>>
>Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
>average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
>110...
>
>regards,
>Stephan

I see no problem with that. It gives a reasonable explanation for higher
point characters.  This means longer life at higher TL's without resorting
to anagathics, which were made deliberately rare and expensive by the game
system. Not mention the inexplicable effect they had on increasing the risk
of death during jump. A game mechanic designed especially to limit PC
lifespan. I never liked it.

Realistically, in the U.S. at least, many people never develop athletically
until they are established financially. For every high school football
player there are two high school bookworms who find themselves with a
personal trainer at 30, in better shape than they ever were as pizza eating
teenagers.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 22:31:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:31:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020201125734.00ace2f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>I actually did these calculations for Vincennes, but Trin probably has
>an economy of similar size.  And following the rules in TCS for a
>peacetime fleet, Vincennes could have a planetary navy comprising 182
>Tigresses...
>
>Stephen
>(of course on Vincennes they'd be TL-16 Tigresses, but that's just
>adding insult to injury)

I know that this has been discussed before, both here and on the SJGames
boards. I thought that the consensus was that TCS was more applicable to
modeling small politics in the Imperial expansion period than the fleet
building capabilities of a "modern" (circa 1100) Imperial world.

An example might be the fleet construction levels of the United States
during the second world war, as compared to present day ship construction in
the U.S.

Also, I think that the division of assets for ship construction should be
discussed. In other words, who is paying for Trin's fleet and why are they
doing it? Is the cost of the fleet a significant percentage of Imperial
taxes? I would expect the numbers to be the other way around, with the cost
of the fleet much more than taxes. And will the Imperium stand around while
the fleet is being built?

It goes back to the old discussion of who commands the fleet? It appears
that the Imperial Naval Fleet is controlled at the Domain level, which means
that it works for the Archduke(Archduchess.)  So who controls the colonial
fleets? Are they controlled at the sector level? This would mean control by
the sector Dukes(Duchesses.) Finally, who controls the PDFs? The common
answer is the Imperial Member worlds, but who is this? Is this the local
world governments or is it the local Imperial delegation, meaning the low
level Nobles or legates.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 22:35:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:35:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
>external trading partners after all...
>
>
>- Tim

Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech worlds
must have external trading partners or their tech level will degrade.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:24:18 EST
Subject: [TML] Long awaited answer
Message-ID: <b0.215b0cc9.298dcf22@aol.com>

For years i have been waiting for the answer to one simple question, perhaps 
someone here can help..........

Supplement 13: Vetrans  In my copy page 34 is blank, so blank the page is not 
even numbered,  Does anyone have this book and can you tell me what is on the 
missing page.  I suppose it could have been just a blank page to seperate 
another section or the like, but if so you would think it would at least be 
numbered. My book goes from 33 to 35 with no 34 at all.

Please someone tell me whats on the missing page and if i am missing 
something could someone please scan that 1 page for me.

thank you


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:40:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:40:44 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16X9l6-0002mt-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de> wrote:
> 
> > Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> > very reasonable fashion.
> >
> > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> >
> Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will
> have an average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and
> well up to about 110...

I'd actually greatly prefer this sort of Imperium, it is the high-tech far 
future after all.  IMHO, the best way to limit characters is to simply 
put a limit on how many terms a PC can have served (say 5 or 6) 
instead of using aging.  YMMV.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:16:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:16:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>
>> Most subsector dukes are associated with Hi-pop worlds - Rhylanor, Mora,
>> Trin, Glisten, etc.  Regina is an exception.  The interests of the
>> governments of _these_ Hi-pop worlds and the interests of the subsector
>> governments tend to coincide, since they are essentially the same people.
>
>That's a viable answer, but leads to some problems:
>
>1)  Not all governments are headed by hereditary nobles; for extreme
examples,
>the solomani rim has 3 hi-pop participatory democracies and 4 hi-pop
>representative democracies).  Given that the subsector duke is a hereditary
>position, while the head of government may not be, what happens when the
>subsector duke and the head of government clash?
>
Under most conditions political infighting, under extreme conditions: a
visit from an independent mercenary hit squad.

>2)  What happens when the interests of the Imperium and the interests of a
>single Hi-pop world conflict?  Even if it's a single leader, juggling hats
can
>be a problem.

I really don't see why they should conflict. The "Hi-Pop World" has no
interests. The Imperium has no interests, unless it be the interests of the
Emperor. It's the people involved who have the interest. An Imperial Noble's
interest is no doubt the same as the interests of world leaders today. How
much money can I get away with? How can I make this society into what I
think it should be? How can I prevent these other people from stopping me?

The real question here is: What do the leaders of Trin have to gain by not
paying their Imperial Taxes? How can they convince the people they rule that
its more worthwhile to pay for a large war fleet than pay a smaller amount
to the Imperium who will then take care of the pesky war fleet requirements?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:28:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:28:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <003801c1abf5$d6bc81e0$7d4e8a90@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

Personally I'm just too lazy for anarchy. The construction of an
impenetrable compound, the lugging about of a large automatic weapon and a
few hundred pounds of ammunition The constant guarding of my wife and
daughters every time they want to leave the house, or worse yet their
constant presence, because its unsafe for them to go out alone. Not to
mention the construction of my own well, generator and septic tank. I'd
really hate the constant raids I'd have to carry out on the local farmers
for food. How tiring.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:57:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:57:39 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012504748.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEOCCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Jackson
> Sent: 31 January 2002 19:19
>
> We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about
> the interaction
> between the Imperium and its member worlds (the specific example involved
> nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, and the question of
> just what the
> subsector duke can do about this problem, since Trin's system
> defense fleet
> would chew up and spit out the subsector fleet).
>
> Anyway, how do people interpret the relative power of the Imperium and the
> member worlds -- specifically, the Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who
> often control
> upwards of 50% of the total production of the subsector, and can
> pretty much
> tell the subsector navy to take a flying leap).

they might be able to tell the Subsector Navy to take a flying leap, but I
doubt they could tell that to the Sector navy.

> Given the noninterventionist rules of the Imperium (and the utter lack of
> consistency in sub-Imperial government), I'm inclined to view the Imperial
> government as rather weak, with power concentrated more in the hands of
> individual worlds than in the hands of the Imperium; think of the
> Imperium as
> NATO plus the EU (or the WTO).  OTOH, the feel of the game
> doesn't suggest that
> the Imperium is all that weak (though this may be because most
> Traveller games
> don't occur on major worlds; the Imperium can fail to have much
> control over
> Hi-pop worlds and still pretty thoroughly intimidate lower
> population worlds).

The Imperium would react to any attempt to not pay taxes at multiple levels,
the last of which is extreme military force, the political fallout of having
a Hi Pop world interfere with Trade (by not paying taxes) would be much
worse than that caused by the Imperium defeating and occupying said planet.

I would imagine the Imperium would pursue a multi pronged policy here:-

Diplomatic measures to the target planet (and most importantly with local
planets and sector Hi pop planets and nobles) their aim would be to resolve
the issue (read get the taxes) and if not to politically isolate the planet.

Undercover personnel would investigat6e the possibility of a governmental
change (voluntary or not).

Propoganda units (sorry public info units) would try and persuade public
opinion to support the Imperium.

Trade would be severely curtailed through (initially) pressures on local
traders and the Megacorps, the Spaceport could suddenly start taking _Much_
longer to process viutally needed supplies.  incentives could be annouced
making trade with a competitor much motre attractive.

Militay units would be deployed in the local area (both public and
secretely) to increase pressure and concentrate thinking, as well as
enabling immediate action when given the green light.

TAS would probably Amber zone the planet immediately, with possible economic
consequences.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  2 23:58:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:58:06 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <b7.1b022198.298dd70e@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 14:35:08 GMT Standard Time, abradley1@bigpond.com 
writes:


> > From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> > Frank Chadwick's favorite anarchist was Bakunin. Frank said you had to
> > respect the intellectual purity of a man who bombed anarchist meetings
> > under the theory that anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
> 
> I have a fairly strong feeling that this story may not be true.
> 
> There are plenty of good stories about Bakunin which are true, though.  He
> was a total headcase.
> 
> Apart from anything else, he had a lovely fondness for conspiracies.  His
> model of anarchist organisation considered of a strictly hierarchical
> international secret society that would manipulate the masses into 
> achieving
> anarchist goals.  At the head of this secret society would be a single
> faceless supreme leader, chosen by the inner circle of the conspiracy...
> Unkind and cynical people suggested that Bakunin might have had a suitable
> candidate in mind for this position.

I suspect this story originates from Bakunin's association with the terrorist 
Nechaev, who was to say the least an unpleasant character. You're right 
Bakunin was a contradictory character with few redeeming features, 
particularly when you take his profound racism (particularly anti-semitism) 
into account.

> 
> In case anyone wants to use this information to engage in a spot of
> anarchist baiting, I should point out that most present day anarchists
> aren't Bakuninists.  In fact, they're mostly just kids, with very little
> grasp of politics beyond the level of "the way things are now is wrong".
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com

All radical parties tend to attract disaffected teenagers. It's part of 
growing up. Most don't stay involved for long after they discover that 
radical politics are not necessarily good for pulling the opposite sex. 
Unfortunately some of us stay involved long after our sell by date.

Old anarchists don't die, body parts just set up on their own*.

Charles

*Usually, in us men, led by the prostate gland...

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:01:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <7f.20ffcd3c.298dd7d1@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/02/02 19:53:28 GMT Standard Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Stranger things have happened.  Look into the reasons for babies being
> killed...  It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless, don't you
> think?  It also points out the absurdity of the anarchist position.
> If Bakunin is free of the law, he can take what he wishes from
> storeowners to feed and clothe himself.  They, being unable to take
> him to law, could steal back--but he'd just steal back again.  The
> only way to end the petty annoyance is to kill him.
> 
> Think about it: if you've a neighbour who cannot be made to move, who
> cannot be fined, who cannot be imprisoned, who persists in playing
> loud music, erecting a charnel house and dumps offal in your yard, how
> long would it be until someone ended the nuisance permanently?
> Perhaps one would move instead of slaying him.  But imagine that every
> neighbour is like that.  Imagine that there is no escape.  The only
> solution, the only way to begin to ensure an appropriate life, then,
> is to kill the offenders.
> 
> This is the glory of law: that it punishes appropriately.  While the
> final recourse of law is as it ever has been--death--it so very rarely
> needs to go that far.  Thus the nuisance is hit with a punishment in
> proportion to his crime, and is not made to die for his error.  This
> is a great mercy.
> 
> Without law, there is only force.  And force unrestrained very quickly
> escalates to the ultimate force.  Thus the error of anarchy.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 

Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive 
anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will be 
by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology than we 
have at the moment.

I doubt I'll live to see it.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:10:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:10:52 -0000
Subject: [TML] Sig Files
In-Reply-To: <3C59CBFE.D4B86DA6@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEOCCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

OK I've given up searching for this programme, any idea where I can find it?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of alan spik
> Sent: 31 January 2002 22:58
>
> TaglinePro is the one I use. Its Freeware.....Ohhhh....Free!
>
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> If a man who cannot count finds a four-leaf clover, is he entitled
> to happiness?
>            -Stanislaw Lec
>

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:38:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:38:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202030038.QAA10594@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:

>>It's not like a planet must automatically wither and die if it has no
>>external trading partners after all...
>>
>>
>>- Tim
>
>Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech worlds
>must have external trading partners or their tech level will degrade.

In competing canon, the Darrians didn't need much.

We don't have much canon on how heavily populated the pre-collapse Imperium
was; there's a difference between pop-6 colony worlds and pop-A major worlds.
It's quite possible that simultaneous economic failures on Terra and Vland
would have brought the whole mess down, because most other worlds were 
still relatively lightly developed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:44:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:14:13 +1030 (CST)
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKGCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202031111160.13470-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Stephan:

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> > Alternately, there is GURPS where aging is modified by TL in a
> > very reasonable fashion.
> >
> > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> >
> Agreed, But this also means that your typical imperial citizen will have an
> average lifespan of 150+ years and will be quite alive and well up to about
> 110...
>
> regards,
> Stephan

 One of the first things that I thought I saw in the game, CT, when I
first looke at the books long ago. That being it appeared the lifetime of
the Imperial Citizens of the higher tech levels would have ages over 150.
I have played that in my games and the rich ones at 123 still looking like
they are 23. Always wondered if I had misse something, or had been too
creative IMTU.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:12:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:12:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJODKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>      "The Imperium can bring up fleets from Deneb, mass Marine Force
>> Regiments, and bring in a few million Imperial Army troops from the UA
Mora
>>  and from similar formations in Deneb, and launch at their leisure, all
>> the  time sending in raiding parties to disrupt and harrass the SDBs."
>
>Raising parties can easily wind up costing the attacker more than the
defender.
>>
>>      Fleets from Deneb?  Perhaps.  Fleets carry themselves.  They'd
simply
>> jump their way across the Imperium, requiring nothing but food along the
>> journey.  All other fungibles could be manufactured and waiting for them
in
>>  the war zone itself.
>>      Millions of troops from Mora?  Maybe not.  Sure, an army on Mora
could
>>  be frozen and shipped, sans equipment, all the way to the Rim.
>
>Well, Trin's not on the Rim; it's 12 parsecs from Mora (though it's 4 jumps
at
>J4).  Of course, it's worth noting that any significant army on Mora isn't
an
>Imperial army, it belongs to Mora.

Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:23:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:23:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202142603.019df7b0@mail.charter.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022005150.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020202162337.006af4dc@mindspring.com>

At 02:26 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!

*snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                        --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 00:32:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:32:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Subject: Expanded Law Level Codes v 0.001a
In-Reply-To: <00e701c1abe7$35c3bd20$d47a893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJPDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>
>>    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>>    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>
>I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
>for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
>non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
>the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
>lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
>for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
>of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
>intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
>criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
>most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
>
This is quite common in the U.S., mostly because criminal courts require
both a beyond reasonable doubt level of proof and a unanimous jury for
conviction, but civil courts only require a probable level of proof and a
majority. O.J. Simpson is one example.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 01:22:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:22:37 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJKDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHCEKLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> I see no problem with that. It gives a reasonable explanation for higher
> point characters.  This means longer life at higher TL's without resorting
> to anagathics, which were made deliberately rare and expensive by the game
> system. Not mention the inexplicable effect they had on
> increasing the risk
> of death during jump. A game mechanic designed especially to limit PC
> lifespan. I never liked it.
>

I didn't like that, too. Seems that we all here agree that the low lifespan
of CT is a bit unrealistic - I never saw a reason why it had to be this way.

Regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 01:22:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:22:38 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16X9l6-0002mt-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHEEKLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> I'd actually greatly prefer this sort of Imperium, it is the
> high-tech far
> future after all.  IMHO, the best way to limit characters is to simply
> put a limit on how many terms a PC can have served (say 5 or 6)
> instead of using aging.  YMMV.
>
ACK. This aging rolls of CT always gave me the creeps. I like the GURPS
method very much. Indeed, in some campaigns (not Traveller) I encourage the
players to take Longevity or such - it costs points and has no real
advantage for them ;-) (after all, most campaigns don't last _that_ long)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:29:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:29:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mind-Raping Zhodani
Message-ID: <008501c1ac62$f88f5500$bdd1d63f@customer>

> >From: "John Scarlett"
> >
> >I'd just like to add that most of our own greatest artist were troubled
and
> >unhappy.  Art in the Consulate must be pretty dry.

>From Glenn
> As they say in the Consulate, if you can't have good psi conditioning, at
> least you can have art.  Poor Imperials.  Poor Solomani.

I've been psi conditioned, I'd rather have art.

Teauearl, male aslan, Enemy of Zho trash




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:33:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <200202030233.SAA27987@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:

>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Of course, it's sort of dependent on _why_ Trin has decided to kick up a
fuss.  It's quite possible that Mora thinks lower taxes would be a great
idea too...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:48:00 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #116
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202022012220.27131-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3c5fa0e2.52032716@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

>My take is that the 34
>fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are raised and maintained by the
>worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat below the Imperial average in
>strength) 

Considering that this is one of the Imperium's most threatened and
vulnerable borders, wouldn't it make sense for it to receive support
from the core worlds?  

After all, wealthy and peaceful sectors like Core, Ilelish, Verge,
Gushemege, etc can easily support huge fleets, and if they stay at
home what are they going to do?  Mount fancy parades for the local
duke?  Chase pirates?  Fight a massive genocidal civil war that tears
the Imperium into pieces?  Much better to send them out to defend the
Marches and the Rim, surely...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:47:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:47:58 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:

>where have you found budgets for the navy? I've been trying to figure out how big
>my fleet really is. What is the budget canonaicly(sp?)

Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget of
about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30% of
this is taken by the Imperium in taxes, leaving Trin with MCr
8,540,000 per year. (TCS doesn't account for Imperial taxes at all).

The fleet is ten times a single year's budget, or 85 trillion credits'
worth.  That buys you 235 Tigresses (or about 79,000 Kinunirs).

(The Striker formula is GNP = population x per capita income, which is
Cr22,000 for a TL 15 world x 1.4 for an industrial world.  Military
budget is 3% of this, navy budget is 60% of that).(GT:FTsays that per
capita income at this tech level is only Cr15,000.  No idea why they
changed it.)


It seems obvious that in the OTU, high-population worlds do *not*
devote 3% of their GNP to defence - it seems like 0.3% would be a
closer figure.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 02:48:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:48:01 GMT
Subject: [TML] build a highport
In-Reply-To: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020202.121134.-188889.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3c60a30a.52584471@post.demon.co.uk>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>I came up with a way to begin and expand highport construction in MTU. I
>base it on two Stat Trek views.
[...]
>A few
>modular cutters to bring connecting walkways and elevators, and you've
>got a fine station.


Designing Vincennes' highport using GT:S is turning out to be fun...
Take the largest hull size available (3 million dtons).  Now orbit ten
of them around each other in a stable configuration.  Now duplicate
the entire structure three times...

And since the world's population and economy are growing at a
sustained 1% per annum (according to RSB, anyway) prepare to build an
entire new highport the same size in a century's time ;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
armament to carry round
>in public?

It depends on the context, of course.  I never go anywhere without a Gerber
LST (except court, airplanes, and the like).  Sometimes I carry a back-up
folder, but I lost my K-9 some years ago.  (I once worked for a guy from
Sweden, who, on finding out about my Finnish heritage, noted that the
Swedes' prejudice of the Finns is that they always have their knives and are
always ready to use them -- whereupon I showed him the two folding knives I
had in my pocket and the puukko in my backpack.  (It was just luck that I
had the puukko, as it was a Friday and I was going camping that weekend, and
leaving straight from work.))

When correctly viewed, just about everything is a weapon.  My steel pen and
steel belt buckle and my hard-edged and hard-soled shoes can go anywhere
with me.  My nylon briefcase has a strap.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: knightsky@juno.com
>
>I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's basically an 'A'
>superimposed on a circle.

So those Adventure Team G.I. Joes from the 1970s were actually anarchists,
and Hasbro was trying to subvert a generation of boys.  I always thought so.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>The sure must be cranky neighbours if they cut him into ribbons for
>turning down his radio...

Or maybe a very loud radio, for a very long time.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
>
>> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
>
>damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...

I was visualizing you wrapping the film itself around your body, kind of
like a mummy.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:25:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:25:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <B881EDAF.2301E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/2/02 10:47 AM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:

> To reiterate my "tools" comment (above), I carry both the Multi-plier and
> the Leatherman because I've found myself in numerous situations where I
> needed 2 pairs of pliers to perform some task. I carry the Victronix
> primarily for the scissors, the corkscrew, and the small knife blade.  I
> carry a Surefire 9P flashlight because... well... it's a flashlight.

An invaluable tool.  I usually keep my 6p in my coat pocket.

> As 
> for the SpyderCo, it's primary function is as a letter and box opener, but
> the main reason I carry it is in case of an emergency when I might need to
> get through a stuck seatbelt.  That half-serrated blade goes through nylon
> webbing like a hot knife through butter.

IMHO, serrated edges are for people who can't sharpen a knife (no offense).
I prefer a plain blade hone on a surgical black.
 
> The S&W, OTOH, is strictly for self defense.  I think of it as the fire
> extinguisher that I hope I never have to use.

First rule of a gunfight: have a gun.  I like my little mouse gun as it's so
small and light I never have an excuse not to carry it.  I figure that 6
rounds of MagSafe better do the job, hoping, like you, I never need to find
out.

It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>
>
>Realistically, in the U.S. at least, many people never develop athletically
>until they are established financially. For every high school football
>player there are two high school bookworms who find themselves with a
>personal trainer at 30, in better shape than they ever were as pizza eating
>teenagers.

My own story goes somewhat as you describe.

>From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
>
>Glen. So that's real life. Now roll up a classic Traveller character as
>old as you are complete with aging rolls. Strength 1, Constitution 1...

This is the classic "ob Traveller":  translating statistics into real life.
I think my UPP numbers would be 7799C9 today.  At age 18 (after high
school), 555866.  At age 22(after college), 6669A8.  At age 26 (after four
years as nurseryman, cabinetmaker, and construction worker), 8699A8.  At age
30 (after graduate school and law school), 6699C8.  At age 34 (after working
for a few years), 6799C9 (I noticed an increase in manual dexterity during
this time).  At age 38 (after working for a few more years), 5789C9.  At age
42 (after three years of hapkido, general physical training, and working
fewer hours per year, but also developing astigmatism), 7799C9.

I would certainly play an adventurer with those statistics, but as to
skills, I'm not sure I want to play a character whose main asset is
litigation-4 (I do that in real life already).  Some of my real life skills
I would certainly keep:  admin, foil, melee combat, handgun, wheeled vehicle
(internal combustion), even skiing (cross-country and telemark) and
equestrian (horse).  Wheeled vehicle (bicycle), horticulture, and cabinet
making are probably not too useful to a Traveller adventurer.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:41:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] build a highport
Message-ID: <20020202.194106.-183833.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Stephen
> Designing Vincennes' highport using GT:S is turning out to be fun...
> Take the largest hull size available (3 million dtons).  Now orbit 
> ten
> of them around each other in a stable configuration.  Now duplicate
> the entire structure three times...

Gee that's big, have you determined its overall size?
How large is Vincennes?
What's the orbital distance from surface to highport?
How much suunlight is being deflected, thus not reaching Vincennes?
If a lot, what possible cooling is there on Vincennes?

I know, I'm rambling...


Turokan
---------------
We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 03:58:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:58:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aussi and Kiwi gun fans
Message-ID: <B881F57B.23055%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Sorry to butt in, but I know the TML has lots of Austrailian, New Zealand,
etc members who may be able to help me out (or possibly some others on this
list).  I am looking for info on the Austrailian Leader T-2 Assault rifle.
Specifically, I'm hoping to find details, drawings or pictures of the T-2
bolt assembly.  Appreciate any information.

Rupert?

Thanks,

Tod

We now return you to Traveller
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:11:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <20020202.201148.-183833.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Glenn

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:13:33 -0800 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>  At age 42 (after three years of hapkido, general physical
> training, and working fewer hours per year, but also
> developing astigmatism), 7799C9.
> 
> I would certainly play an adventurer with those statistics, 
> --Glenn

Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller forgot
to include..

"The will and determination of improving one's life, while life carries
on."

I was a high school football, tennis, weightlifter athlete. Though it
brought my physical stats to 999 before joining the Army, I improved to
possibly AAB. However, from 1975 to 1993 I decreased steadily down too
788. Then I was hit at age 40 with Lou Gherig's disease. My unfortunate
stats now at age 48 in 2002 are 101, and falling. Next week I order a
wheelchair.

It seems to me that Traveller expects people to become invalids? Yet
Traveller also expects you to pay a 40 year payment on a starship, AFTER
you retire from active duty. Go figure?


Turokan
------------
We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:55:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:55:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Anarchy Discussion
Message-ID: <b6.5ea4116.298e1cc2@aol.com>

> As a card carrying anarchist, I just want to say that this kind of 
>  comment riles me. Anarchism is not about having no organisation. 
>  It is about having no hierarchy self-proclaimed card carrying 
>  anarchists.

I feel slightly irritated when people make jokes about my political beliefs 
also, but I get over it. Just revel in the knowledge that you are a follower 
of the true path . . . as I do.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:00:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:00:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #117
References: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c1ac6f$b712e260$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >
> >    1 - Restitutive lawsuits for intentional injury.
> >    2 - Punitive lawsuits for intentional injury.
>
> I'd put these two at LL-2/6 at least, if they exist at all. Punishments
> for intentional injury are properly the domain of criminal law, and in a
> non-corrupt law system, should never even require a civil case. Assuming
> the criminal court case fails, or double jeopardy is possible, a civil
> lawsuit could possibly be drawn up. Every western country has punishments
> for GBH ranging from hefty fines to incarceration, but these are aspects
> of the criminal law system. I'm not personally aware of any cases of
> intentional injury in the UK being tried in a civil (as opposed to
> criminal) court, which would place the UK at LL-1 for this, which would be
> most peculiar. I imagined the UK as being LL-5/6.
>
>
> I know that there have been private prosecutions for murder in the UK. The
> Stephen Lawrence case is perhaps the best known but I believe the families
of
> the victims of the Omagh bomb are trying to raise the money to do it.
>
>This is quite common in the U.S., mostly because criminal courts require
>both a beyond reasonable doubt level of proof and a unanimous jury for
>conviction, but civil courts only require a probable level of proof and a
>majority. O.J. Simpson is one example.

I was going to cite the latter as well.  But there are lesser examples, like
defamation, fraud, and intentional infliction of emotional distress, which
may have no criminal analogs.

> >    9 - Restitutive strict liability (ie injury despite care).
> >  10 - Punitive strict liability.
>
> Is this where a doctor or other professional carer causes injury? I'm not
> familiar with legal jargon.
>
It's liability for injury even though the person doing the harm exercised
care not to hurt anyone.  Say, for example, holding the owner of dog liable
for any damages caused by its bite, even if a fence is built around the
doghouse and warning signs are posted conspicuously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 04:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:59:13 EST
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
Message-ID: <163.82c064e.298e1da1@aol.com>

> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.

Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
still has nightmares . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:11:03 EST
Subject: [TML] Knives.
Message-ID: <c1.1b368b06.298e2067@aol.com>

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
> armament to carry round in public?

Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my father 
gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a 
phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.

Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly 
knife. 

[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]

He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and 
took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself a 
good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:15:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:15:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
In-Reply-To: <200201311811.g0VIBq629907@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203000217.025a7620@mail.qrc.com>


>David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:31:25, David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
>The whole thing boils down to what the Maximum CP Input line on the 
>computers chart means. My position is it is the maximum CPs before being 
>multiplied and General T. is of the opinion that it is the maximum CPs 
>after the multiplyer.

That's my take on the discussion, as well, and I interpret the rule the 
same way you (David) do.  It's been a while since I worked with the MT 
design rules (I didn't like them very much), but it was my impression that 
the Max CP Input is the maximum control panel input before multiplication 
(and not the maximum control point output of the computer for purposes of 
controlling the vessel).

It is also my impression that (should you so desire) that it is 
theoretically possible to build a flyable ship without a computer - but it 
would require so many control panels as to be impractical to build.  You 
add a computer (which multiplies the effect of the installed control 
panels) to reduce the requirement.

>By the Turokan interpretation the greatest possible cost of a TL 15 ship
>would then be MCr 666,666 [... and by] my formulation the greatest 
>possible cost for a TL 15 ship would be MCr 80,000,000

The figure of MCr 666,666 is too low; it is quite possible (and maybe even 
reasonable) for single large ships at TL-15 to exceed this cost.  The 
conventional (albeit High Guard based) wisdom is for a ship to cost 
approximately MCr1/dton ... by this rule of thumb, ships of up to at least 
MCr 1,000,000 should be buildable.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:20:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:20:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Writing again
Message-ID: <148.8ddabd4.298e228e@aol.com>

> >Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!
>  
>  *snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
>  expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
>  office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.

Doug's writing again . . . hmmmmm . . . wonder what it is.*

LKW

* This is trolling . . . I happen to know what he's writing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:20:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:20:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Long awaited answer
In-Reply-To: <b0.215b0cc9.298dcf22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1ac72$8af13f80$2f7de40c@loki>

No page 34 in the reprints.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 05:42:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:42:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Knives.
In-Reply-To: <c1.1b368b06.298e2067@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203003727.01597858@mail.charter.net>

At 12:11 AM 2/3/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of
> > armament to carry round in public?
>Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my father
>gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a
>phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.
>Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly
>knife.
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>[flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
>He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and
>took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself a
>good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .

These are the kids who cycle out of dojos so fast it's almost a shame you 
don't get more time to watch them embarrass themselves.

Of course these are the same idiots who will blame the school for not 
teaching them how to perform those moves without the wires...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:07:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200201312030.g0VKUOH18863@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203004135.0259d8f0@mail.qrc.com>

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:19:08, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>We've been involved in a mighty debate on the jtas boards about the 
>interaction between the Imperium and its member worlds

Sounds interesting!

>the specific example involved nonpayment/underpayment of taxes by Trin, 
>and the question of just what the subsector duke can do about this 
>problem, since Trin's system defense fleet would chew up and spit out the 
>subsector fleet).

It sounds like the subsector duke has a problem in relating with (dealing 
with) the nobility in his subsector - specifically whomever is responsible 
for Trin (and/or those who have fiefdoms there).  Ideally, the subsector 
duke should have made sure that the sector duke is aware of the problem, 
and formulated contingency plans.

If things have gotten to the point where Trin is in active rebellion and 
military action is the only solution, then the problem is bigger than the 
subsector.  In this case, the subsector duke is cut out of the picture 
(possibly with some sort of reprimand) by the sector duke, who amasses such 
forces as are sufficient for the problem, and applies them.  This could 
(for example) include a "remote blockade" of Trin*, or a direct application 
of Naval force.  While Trin's system defense fleet might outgun the 
subsector's fleet, it doesn't outgun the combined regular and reserve 
fleets of it's own and the surrounding subsectors.  Remember - the Imperium 
is aware (possibly in exact detail) of the strength of Trin's system 
defenses.  Unless the nobility is stupid+, they will wait to marshal 
sufficient forces to have a strong chance of victory.  While Trin may be 
able to outproduce the rest of it's subsector, it can't outproduce the 
total of the Imperial worlds of the Marches.

* A remote blockade would consist of Naval forces in worlds within J-2 or 
J-4 of Trin ensuring that no ships jump on a vector that would take them to 
Trin.  Such a blockade would not be 100% effective - but would stop 75%-90% 
of the system's traffic.  Presumably this would have an economic effect.

+ A distinct possibility, in that they allowed the government of one of the 
subsector's high-population world to become so unhappy as to be in open 
rebellion with the Imperium.

>Imperium vs Hi-pop worlds (who often control upwards of 50% of the total 
>production of the subsector, and can pretty much tell the subsector navy 
>to take a flying leap).

The Imperium is bigger than a subsector, so IMHO it's a bad idea to 
consider the response as being limited by just that.  In a non-Imperial 
situation, a subsector's high-population worlds are likely to control 
polities of that size.  In the Imperium, there are other high-population 
worlds out there, and their combined production can steamroller any single 
world.

Given the size of the Imperium, this force takes time to bring to 
bear.  Therefore, it's quite possible for a world to believe that it's 
rebellion is succeeding (or, at least, that the Imperium is unwilling to 
apply force).  Initial skirmishes between system defense forces and local 
naval assets will almost certainly be victorious.  It may take the Imperium 
months to amass the required forces for a strike - months where the rebels 
think they've won.  When the Imperium does move, it will certainly be with 
overwhelming force.

>I'm inclined to view the Imperial government as rather weak, with power 
>concentrated more in the hands of individual worlds than in the hands of 
>the Imperium

My view is that the Imperium is quite strong, but for various reasons 
normally does not have a strong presence on member worlds.  This is partly 
on the theory that the government that governs least governs best, and 
partly because I doubt that the local nobility (to say nothing of 
megacorporate interests) likes having the Navy watch over their shoulders.

>the Imperium can fail to have much control over Hi-pop worlds and still 
>pretty thoroughly intimidate lower population worlds).

That's true.  In the case of non-high-population worlds, there isn't much 
doubt: the subsector fleet can deal with the problem.  It is only with high 
population worlds that there is even a significant question.

I'd suggest that as a practical matter, Imperial policy tends to align well 
with that of the high-population worlds.  The Imperium tends to do whatever 
is good for interstellar trade, commerce, and the megacorporations.  The 
high-population worlds are the best markets, production, and trading 
centers - what is good for them is also good for trade, commerce, and the 
megacorporations.  It is probably also true that the bulk of the nobility 
will come from, represent, or have fiefdoms on, high-population worlds, 
also making it more likely that the attitudes and interests of the nobility 
correspond with those of the high-population worlds as well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:15:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131224800.00bcc2c0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202221146.00ab0ec0@mail.verizon.net>

How-do!

I've got a question about the USD size parameter in QSDS. I was spending 
some time in the airport today playing with QSDS and trying to use the Big 
Book of Hulls. In comparing the tables, I noticed that the Size column was 
missing so I began to wonder what the criteria was for determining size. 
I'm not able to get to my Traveller books just yet, so any insight into how 
this works would be appreciated. FWIW, I'm putting together a small 
cross-platform application that I'm planning on posting with source code 
for folks to rip up (if they like) and pass on comments for improvements 
(if they like).

Best regards,

Charles McKnight

At 10:48 PM 1/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.
>
>OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
>columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
>fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?
>
>Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
>a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
>you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?
>
>>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as 
>>seperate projects is a mistake.
>
>I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
>QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
>Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS 
>- it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
>complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.
>
>
>   --- Derek Wildstar
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:16:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] BBT 4.4 Van & Viv
Message-ID: <00b201c1ac82$c2a4f100$4cd2d63f@customer>

> Viviana steps out of the lift and walks out in to the lobby, looking for
Van.

Van sees Viviana and goes to her.  "Good to see you again. I was affraid I
might be late, I hate to keep people waiting."  Vans a little nervous.

Van



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:22:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:22:45 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020203172245.A10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
> degrade.

Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?
;^>


As you might guess, I'm not a big fan of that particular premise.

I'm also not quite sure how a trade level of typically 0.1% of GWP
becomes so critical.  Surely if something is absolutely necessary for
the survival of planetary civilization in the medium term and cannot
be substituted locally, it's got to make up more than 0.1% of GWP!

According to the Free Trader formulas, there are even a few high-tech
worlds with total trade volume making up only 0.01% of GWP.  This
isn't like the USA needing trade with the rest of the world to sustain
themselves; this is like the USA being absolutely dependent upon trade
with Luxembourg!

As I said in an earlier post, there is no Earthly analog for the
amazingly low trade volumes depicted by Free Trader.  They stretch
credibility.  Further describing them as essential to a civilization's
very survival stretches (my) suspension of disbelief beyond breaking
point.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:56:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:56:42 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Andrew Whincup wrote :

> Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?

In normal circumstances, nothing.

It's too easy to kill people _without_ weapons, and I can't
afford to get into trouble with the law.

I usually only carry weapons when going to archery, fencing, and
SCA events.

When I go bush I take a Victorinox, a hand axe,  and usually a
couple of other appropriate blades. On rare occassions, I'll
actually carry a rifle, though as I don't own one, I'm usually
carrying it for someone else in the party.

Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:56:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:56:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote :
> >From: knightsky@juno.com
> >
> >I believe there is a symbol for Anarchy.  It's
> >basically an 'A' superimposed on a circle.

Which is funny, because that particular formulation was invented
as part of a marketing campaign in England in the seventies.

"Ooooiiiii wannnna beeee ....... Anarchy!"

> So those Adventure Team G.I. Joes from the 1970s were
> actually anarchists,and Hasbro was trying to subvert a
> generation of boys. I always thought so.

And it brings new meaning to the "A-Team"

Personally I also love the irony of the upside-down anarchy
symbol used by the Brujah Clan in White Wolf's "Vampire : the
Masquerade".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:59:03 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012526493.9067.ajackson@ping> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020203175903.B10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The real question here is: What do the leaders of Trin have to gain by not
> paying their Imperial Taxes?

Not a great deal, so long as the Imperium doesn't start making unwise
or unpopular expenditures of that tax money.


> How can they convince the people they rule that its more worthwhile
> to pay for a large war fleet than pay a smaller amount to the
> Imperium who will then take care of the pesky war fleet
> requirements?

The only problem is that Trin *does* pay for the war fleet, either
way.  Look at the GWP of all the planets nearby; economically the
subsector consists of Trin, and ... umm, Trin.  The second largest
economy is about 100 times smaller.  If you think of Trin as being the
US, the subsector consists mainly of countries smaller than Fiji.  The
next largest economy corresponds to roughly New Zealand.  The third
largest corresponds roughly to Tasmania.

Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:16:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget
> of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30%
> of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,

Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.
The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is
0.15% of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:06:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #114
In-Reply-To: <200202011634.g11GYbt00975@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203020425.025af070@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:21:12, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
 > 200 bottles would be 8 cases, a 6-pack and two singles.

Yes, my error.  In any case, that's a lot of beer.  The big question, 
though, is not how to brew it, but how to get it across the country.  The 
shipping on the beer could easily exceed the cost of the plane ticket for 
the brewmaster.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:55:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)

Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:55:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)

Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 06:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:46:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS (was T5)
In-Reply-To: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203011759.0261b800@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:57:05, "Bruce Macintosh"  wrote:
>Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how many
>you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints.

This is effectively "chunking" the area; it makes the numbers smaller, and 
might make things slightly simpler.  It could be confusing for old-timers 
(who are used to "1 hardpoint per 100 dtons"), since different hulls would 
have different numbers of "hardpoints".  The other problem is the "size" of 
the chunks?

A "standard" turret is 10 square meters, which makes a nice round number 
for dividing - but is 61 "hardpoints" really a lot easier to deal with than 
610 square meters*?  Another possibility for "chunk" size is 13 square 
meters.  This figure was not chosen for any other good reason than it makes 
a standard turret round to 1 hardpoint, and a 20 square meter barbette 
round to 2 hardpoints (this would give a 100-dton hull 47 
hardpoints).  Bigger chunks make most turret weapons have no surface area 
requirement, which would IMHO be a problem.

* I'll admit that the current QSDS data tables (which frequently run 
numbers out to far too many significant figures) are broken in this 
regard.  There should probably be no decimal numbers at all, and everything 
larger than three digits should probably be rounded to 2 or 3 significant 
figures.

To me, this seems the same as tracking surface area, except we're using 
different units that aren't defined anywhere else.  This hurts FF&S 
compatibility, and also makes it harder for people to apply "real world" 
knowledge to ship designs.

>power plants might be tracked in some different way

In FF&S2, power plants require surface area, too (in fact, just about every 
type of system uses surface area, one way or another).  These could all be 
converted to "hardpoints", of course.  I tend to think that some sort of 
special rule or table, just to handle power plant and hull interactions, 
would be more complication than it saved in tracking surface area.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 07:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020202.235815.-183833.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Gentlemen please, you're misunderstanding me!

On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:15:45 -0500 Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
writes:
> 
> >David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
> 
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:31:25, David Shayne 
> <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
> >The whole thing boils down to what the Maximum CP Input line
> > on the computers chart means. My position is it is the maximum
> > CPs before being multiplied and General T. is of the opinion
> > that it is the maximum CPs after the multiplier.

NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING!!!
GEESH, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY IT?
I clearly gave an example, I guess it needs repeating...

EXAMPLE:
1. Determine the number of control points required by each of the eight
following sections: Hull, Power Supply, Locomotion, Communications,
Sensors, Weapons, Screens and Environment Control. Use the following
formula:

	Control Points = Section Price In Credits / 100,000 x Tech Level
ETABORUK TECH LEVEL 16
ESCORT (CORVETTE)  1000tn
Totals = 1,162,446,940 / 100,000 x16 = 185,991.5104 CP's

I can now choose to have or not to have a computer.

2. I choose to pick a computer to help me from packing nearly 186,000
CP's in my ship. I do understand that I can choose any model I want,
rather than being required to install something which handles all of the
186,000 CP's (which was my original thought). Therefore I can choose any
of the following models:
Mod	CP's	Mult	Total required
Nothing	185,992	/0	= 185,992
0, 0/fib	185,992	/5	=  37198.4
1, 1/fib	185,992	/10	=  18599.2
2, 2/fib	185,992	/15	=  12399.4
3, 3/fib	185,992	/25	=  7439.6
4, 4/fib	185,992	/30	=  6199.7
5, 5/fib	185,992	/35	=  5314.0
6, 6/fib	185,992	/45	=  4133.1
7, 7/fib	185,992	/65	=  2861.4
8, 8/fib	185,992	/95	=  1957.8
9, 9/fib	185,992	/120	=  1549.9
10, 10/fib185,992	/200	=  929.9

3. Select and install enough control panel units and control panel
add-ons so that the total CPs from the control units multiplied by the
computer's CP multiplier (if a computer is installed) equals or exceeds
the number of CPs required to control the craft.

I chose a mod 10 which required me to install a minimum of 930 CP's and
AddOns.

> That's my take on the discussion, as well, and I interpret the rule 
> the same way you (David) do.  It's been a while since I worked with
> the MT design rules (I didn't like them very much), but it was my 
> impression that the Max CP Input is the maximum control panel
> input before multiplication (and not the maximum control point
> output of the computer for purposes of controlling the vessel).
> 
> >By the Turokan interpretation the greatest possible cost of a
> > TL 15 ship would then be MCr 666,666 [... and by] my
> > formulation the greatest  possible cost for a TL 15 ship would
> > be MCr 80,000,000

I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED COST, OR ANYTHING WITH TL15!!!

My world and ships are TL 16. I also choose a disk configuration and a
minimum armor value higher than the norm. My ships are very pricey, and
the above 1,000 dton corvette costs  1,476,526,940, Commercial Cost=
1,181,221,552

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:28:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
Message-ID: <200202030828.AAA09599@molly.iii.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:

>> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.
>
>Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
>still has nightmares . . . 

Yeah, but at least in WWII soldiers weren't subject to being shot at by
shore batteries on the other side of the planet (ah, the joys of deep
meson sites)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:26:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give Trin a naval budget
>> of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then says that 30%
>> of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,
>
>Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.
>The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is
>0.15% of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
>volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected.

Actually, Trin's GWP is 210 TCr/year (it's an Industrial world), and the
TCS/striker rule is 3% of GWP (6.3 TCr, 1.89 TCr Naval tax)

Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent to
BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval tax.

Of course, based on FFW fleet strengths, the naval expenditure of the
3I is well under the canon figure, which may mean 3% is for small worlds,
and Trin actually spends something like 1% (0.3% tax), which may be 
comparable to the value of trade and mutual defense to Trin.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 08:37:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:37:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203175903.B10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJMDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3C5DADB1.12058.32A12D@localhost>

I think the question here is not "can the Imperium take out an 
individual high pop high tech world", but "how much bargaining 
power does an individual high pop high tech world have". The 
Imperium fairly clearly can take out an single world (though if 
several get together, they're in trouble, Trin and Mora combined 
could effectively defy the the entire sector).

The cost of taking out a world like Trin is staggering, making it an 
absolute last resort option, and if done for what other worlds 
perceve as "inappropriate" reasons risks turning other similar 
worlds against the Imperium (if the Imperium takes out Trin for 
something trivial then Mora, Rhylanor and Glisten are going to take 
notice). So it comes down to a struggle of wills. The Imperium 
*really* doesn't want to use force against Trin, but Trin knows that if 
push comes to shove it will probably lose. Who blinks first?

Let's construct a senario. The Archduke of Deneb decides that the 
Spinward Marches needs a depot (not unreasonable and likely to 
gain a lot of support throughout the Marches) and he deligates the 
Sector duke (for this argument lets say that the Duke of Vilis has 
somehow got this position) to decide its location.

Now this is going to be expensive, requiring a tax hike; but it's 
construction will have spinoff benefits for the surrounding worlds. 
The Duke decides to put the depot in the Vilis subsector (thus 
bringing the benefits to his fief). Trin objects. Not only is this depot 
going to lead to a tax hike without Trin getting much of a slice of 
the spinoffs; but its going to take Imperial navy money (shipbuilding 
and maintaince) away from Trin's yards.

So Trin threatens not to pay its share of the costs (claiming that 
they need the money to offset the damage the depot is going to do 
to its economy) unless it is located in its subsector. The question 
is who wins this argument, Trin or the Sector Duke? (IMHO, it will 
be Trin in this case, either the depot's location will be changed or 
Trin will not have to pay). Just how "serious" does the matter have 
to be before the Imperium is willing to say no to Trin?

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 09:12:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:12:55 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de> wrote:

> ACK. This aging rolls of CT always gave me the creeps. I like the
> GURPS method very much. Indeed, in some campaigns (not Traveller) I
> encourage the players to take Longevity or such - it costs points and
> has no real advantage for them ;-) (after all, most campaigns don't
> last _that_ long)

Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan 
advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, 
and Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points.  
Advantages that offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game 
should not have anything more than a nominal cost.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:24:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:24:15 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Anarchy Discussion
References: <200202030101.g1311Zj09439@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <004801c1ac9d$1ba314c0$86578a90@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> All radical parties tend to attract disaffected teenagers. It's part of 
> growing up. Most don't stay involved for long after they discover that 
> radical politics are not necessarily good for pulling the opposite sex. 
> Unfortunately some of us stay involved long after our sell by date.

What can I say about this?  

Actually quite a bit, but I won't.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:24:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:24:12 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <004701c1ac9d$1ae2d200$86578a90@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive
> anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will
> be by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology
> than we have at the moment.

Ah.  So you aren't an anarchist after all.

There have been perfectly viable anarchist societies in the twentieth
century.

The best example was the bit of Mexico run by Zapata during that Mexican
Revolution.  Basically, Zapata was a military leader, not a government
leader.  The peasants were allowed to do their own thing.

Ultimately, Zapata was overthrown, and the peasants crushed, but what
destroyed them wasn't internal problems, but rather the fact that they had
ignored the fact that there was in fact a centralised Mexican state, and
this state was eventually able to become strong enough to defeat them.  This
kind of thing is what Marxists point to as the major limitation of
anarchism, apart from the naivety and childishness of present day
"anarchists".

Traveller analogy:  it's the Hard Times, the Imperium is flat on its back,
and you are happy about this.  Unfortunately, Lucan is still there in the
core, and sooner or later he will send expeditions to wipe you off the face
of space.  Either you do it to him first, or your goose is cooked.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:44:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:44:33 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELBCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each,
> and Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points.
> Advantages that offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game
> should not have anything more than a nominal cost.
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15 points. I
can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper - it is, after
all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander tune* Of course
you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and immunities too, less you
wont have too much fun with it ;-)

IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer something
like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long way to achieve
them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled after
the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF series over
here) Cellular Activator. It's an egg-shaped metallic device, about the size
of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which offers (in GURPS Terms):
Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Disease and (I am not sure yet)
either Very Rapid Healing or Slow Regeneration (probably even both).

If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big deal:
They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should at least be
disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer something like very
rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to poison and maybe slow
regeneration and that is balanced by the fact that anyone wearing such a
thing better takes good care of it, because after 62 hours without it,
you're _dead_.

But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:17:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:17:21 EST
Subject: [TML] Knives.
Message-ID: <140.8de23f4.298e7641@aol.com>

In a message dated 03/02/02 05:20:32 GMT Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com 
writes:


> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an appropriate level of 
> > armament to carry round in public?
> 
> Except when flying, I've carried a pocket knife of some kind since my 
> father 
> gave me one when I was 9. Current model is a voctorinox [something with a 
> phillips] that is so old the emblem has been won off years ago.

I generally carry a Swiss Army knife that was given to me by my parents, a 
Leatherman Wave on my belt and a credit card tool in my wallet.

> 
> Funniest thing I ever saw was a neighbor kid practising with his buterfly 
> knife. 
> 
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> [flip-flip-flip-"OW!"-clatter]
> 
> He finally gave it up when he had covered his right hand in bandages, and 
> took up nunchuks -- which lasted just long enough for him to whack himself 
> a 
> good solid "thump" in his gonads . . .
> 
> LKW
> 
With me it was always the tip of the thumb or the back of the head that 
copped it with nunchuka. The tip of the thumb is the one that really hurts...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:05:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:05:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net>
References: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:41PM +1300
Message-ID: <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>

On 1 Feb 2002, at 9:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Our gallons are small because a gallon is 8 pounds of water.  Thus a
> pint's a pound, a cup's 8 oz. and a fluid oz. is an ounce of water.
> We preserve the original doubling-and-halving flow of the system.

Ah, but actually you don't, because your gallon's actually a bit over 8 pounds 
of water, so the Imperial gallon of 10 pounds of water is at least as sensible 
and because the Imperial system uses 20 fliud ounces to the pint they're nearly 
the same as your ounces, and are exactly_ one ounce of water, rather than 
almost an ounce of water. 


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:04:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:04:23 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
Message-ID: <140.8de23f6.298e8147@aol.com>

In a message dated 03/02/02 10:32:03 GMT Standard Time, abradley1@bigpond.com 
writes:


> > From: CHam628781@aol.com
> > Absolutely, which is why anyone who thinks you can bring about positive
> > anarchism by revolution is an idiot. If we ever achieve anarchism it will
> > be by evolution and will probably involve a higher level of technology
> > than we have at the moment.
> 
> Ah.  So you aren't an anarchist after all.

Just not a revolutionary anarchist :)

> 
> There have been perfectly viable anarchist societies in the twentieth
> century.
> 
> The best example was the bit of Mexico run by Zapata during that Mexican
> Revolution.  Basically, Zapata was a military leader, not a government
> leader.  The peasants were allowed to do their own thing.

Indeed, there have been anarchist successes in the twentieth century. However 
they have tended to be short lived. To gain a stable long term anarchist 
society needs evolution, revolutions tend to throw up despots (either for you 
or against you) and we all know where that leads :)

> Ultimately, Zapata was overthrown, and the peasants crushed, but what
> destroyed them wasn't internal problems, but rather the fact that they had
> ignored the fact that there was in fact a centralised Mexican state, and
> this state was eventually able to become strong enough to defeat them.  
> This
> kind of thing is what Marxists point to as the major limitation of
> anarchism, apart from the naivety and childishness of present day
> "anarchists".

Erm, that's not how I read it. Zapata, Pancho Villa and Venustiano Carranza 
(commander of the Constitutional Army) entered Mexico City in 1914, following 
the assasination of Fransisco Madero. Fighting broke out and the 
anarcho-syndicalists of the Casa del Obrero Mundial joined Carranza in 1916. 
Zapata was driven back into the province of Morelos and finally betrayed and 
killed in 1919. When the fighting originally broke out Mexico certainly 
didn't have a central government.

As to naivete and childeshness: you wouldn't be referring to our erstwhile 
neighbours the Greens would you? ;)


> 
> Traveller analogy:  it's the Hard Times, the Imperium is flat on its back,
> and you are happy about this.  Unfortunately, Lucan is still there in the
> core, and sooner or later he will send expeditions to wipe you off the face
> of space.  Either you do it to him first, or your goose is cooked.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 
Assuming enough worlds have "seen the light" doing it to him might well be 
possible. However extremely unlikely given the wide variations in social 
organsiation in the Trav universe.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:43:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:43:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Murder
References: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1acaf$8c8eaf20$3500a8c0@imogen>

Charles wrote:
> > It has been said before that  the  3I  doesn't  rule  its  member
> > worlds, but rules the space  between  them.  Thus  planetary  law
> > (with all its variations) must take presidence ...  unless  there
> > is an  overriding  Imperial  interest.  The  3I  will  have  laws
> > against  murder,  but  they'd  only   apply   outside   planetary
> > jurisdictions ... they could also be  used  as  "suggestions"  to
> > planetary  legislatures.  The  3I  even  tolerates  open  warfare
> > between member states provided that civilian  casulties  are  not
> > "excessive" (remember the Imperial Rules of War for mercs?).
<snip>
>
> Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder
> definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm
> going from memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)
>
> "Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day,
> causes the death of the product of a human mother"

That sounds about right.  I think  the  3I  would  use  "sentient
lifeform" in place of "product of a human mother".  And the  time
restriction has already caused legal  problems  (in  cases  where
someone deliberately infected another with HIV).

How about:
  "Where no other legal  jurisdiction  applies  Murder  shall  be
  defined as any deliberate action or  deliberate  inaction  that
  causes the death of a sentient lifeform.  Such  death  may  not
  necessarily be immediate.  Murder shall be deemed acceptable in
  cases of self-defense; military action;  where  the  action  or
  inaction would result in one's own death or serious injury,  or
  the death or serious injury of others; in the  arrest  of  high
  treason against the Imperium; or in the attempted  apprehension
  of an Imperial felon."

Note that this  gives  the  state  the  discression  as  to  time
interval.  Also, most animals are not sentient, and AI robots are
not lifeforms, but  fully  matured  clones  are  both.  The  last
clause exempts situations where a pirate  ship  (not  engaged  in
piracy) is attacked in ship combat and thee is loss of life.



> 1) Some killings will occur aboard Imperial vessels or on directly ruled
> worlds. The local ruler here is the Imperium, so it must have a suitable
> definition of murder. This would also include killings that take place in
> starports.

Agreed.  Which is why I said:
> The 3I will have laws against murder, but they'd only apply outside
> planetary jurisdictions



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 11:00:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:00:13 -0000
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMELGHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <000401c1acaf$8c00c700$3500a8c0@imogen>

Frank Pitt wrote:
> > > _Alien Resurrection_ worked in some ways...
> >
> > As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
> 
> As a Traveller movie. The crew of thee freighter acte exactly lke
> player chacaters, except that they didn't move quite as fast as
> player characters would have done in getting off the military
> ship.

I always thought AR chickened out at the end: IMHO it would  have
made a better endding if the part-Alien Ripley had, after getting
the mercs off the ship, led the Aliens out into deep  space  with
her as a kind of Moses figure (if not overplayed like the  Christ
metaphor in A3).  After all, any human military is  going  to  be
after her for her hybid DNA, so how can she go back  to  a  human
home.  Also it would set things up  interestingly  for  the  next
movie with Ripley on the Alien's side.

ObTrav: I think I can see some evi^H^H^Hinteresting  plot  twists
here for when I next run an Alien encounter.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:42:20 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aussi and Kiwi gun fans
In-Reply-To: <B881F57B.23055%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE6FC.14091.76B233@localhost>

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:58, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Sorry to butt in, but I know the TML has lots of Austrailian, New Zealand,
> etc members who may be able to help me out (or possibly some others on this
> list).  I am looking for info on the Austrailian Leader T-2 Assault rifle.
> Specifically, I'm hoping to find details, drawings or pictures of the T-2 bolt
> assembly.  Appreciate any information.
> 
> Rupert?

Not a clue offhand, sorry. I'll ask around, though. Now if you'd asked me about 
the Charlton LMG I could've helped you a little. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 10:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:42:29 -0000
Subject: [TML] OT Enterprise Question
References: <20020201104707.87976.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1acaf$8b9c11c0$3500a8c0@imogen>

Gerry Harris wrote:
> Aaargh!  Why did you have to bring that up?  Highlander 2 was such a
> bad movie you cannot find it on video tape.  It was such a bad movie it
> was ignored as canon by the two later Highlander movies and by the
> television show.

Have you seen the "Renagade Version"  of  Highlander 2  that  has
been released on DVD (region 1)?  They have  re-eddited  and  re-
dubbed (and even re-shot) parts of the film to fix up some of the
problems.  Its still the same film but its better than it was.

Also, in the DVD extras they explain why the original version was
so bad: they ran out of money and the financial backers took  the
unfinished film away from the director and producer.  Said backer
then found the quickest and cheapest way to turn  the  unfinished
film into something releaseable without care for the  fans.  Some
aspects of the film, like the Highlander being alien,  were  only
experiments to see how some scenes played in rushes and were  not
intendeded to be released.  In the RV this is now fixed.

However, even though its now improved IMHO any Highlander stories
made after the first film should have been set prior to it.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:42:20 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B881EDAF.2301E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202103833.00a79d48@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C5DE6FC.32614.76B229@localhost>

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.

Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a 
handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it on you 
for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range. However 
you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason (though 
the police carry pepper spray).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:46:13 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 1:55, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote: >I
> was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)
> 
> Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It
> should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, and a
> serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?

Yes, it is. Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a 
month, and the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was bottled. 
Lots of bottles, though. Before Doug revised 'reasonable' to include only North 
America I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets 
of beer from here to the US would be. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 12:49:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:49:17 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DLDLNDEOOJCLDBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C5DE89D.18604.7D12C2@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 19:56, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Andrew Whincup wrote :
> 
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> > appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
> 
> In normal circumstances, nothing.

I normally carry a Wenger Swiss Amry knife (I forget the model), but that's a 
tool as far as I'm concerned. I used to carry a big Mauser pocket knife, but it 
was too long to fit comfortably in most pockets (and then it got stolen).

> Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
> fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

I've an ex-British Army machette that I use for that purpose, though I've used 
a bokken for that, too. The machete needs less space, but the bokken should 
make less of a mess on the carpet.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 14:04:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:04:26  0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>

I've sat back for a while and listened to the debate. I've found it very interesting.

Personnally I've found the armament that some of you consider "run of the mill" frankly horrifying. When I say I feel overarmoured with my victorinox, I mean that I get nervous when Policemen look in my direction for too long. I also get very nervous when I forget to unclip it befoer teaching in schools, 'cos I'll just got to prison for that if it's discovered. [please hold flames until you've read the next paragraph]

What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not allowed to carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held a real gun that works I'm not sure, I think they might be comparable. I'd not really thought about the psychological/sociological effects of law levels and what it might do to people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...

Thoughts anyone?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:36 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
Message-ID: <3c61482c.5060499@post.demon.co.uk>

Well, here are the first few installments at last - I've broken this
down into several posts to avoid overwhelming the TML, and will send
them at intervals (unless the first posts are greeted with a mass
outcry of "No! It's horrible! Stop it at once!").

I was inspired into doing this now by the conversation about
high-population, high-tech worlds:  whatever else you say about it,
Vincennes certainly qualifies as both.  I've tried to explore how a
world can develop this way in the Third Imperium, and what the
potential effects would be on the surrounding planets and systems.

I should emphasise that this is an IMTU landgrab, since it only refers
to canonical materials printed after 1993 - I haven't seen anything
produced during the Megatraveller era and therefore don't take account
of anything printed then.  To those who do know about the earlier
version, my apologies - if you want to use my materials, you could
either rename and relocate the world I describe to somewhere else, or
else assume that one or the other version of the write-up was produced
by a survey team bombed out of their heads on the "hallucinogenic
compounds [extracted from the sapient natives of Perez by Vincennes'
rulers] via cruel, unethical and deadly processes" (RSB p61).

The next post will contain a Library Data entry for Vincennes, which
is based on the RSB write-up.  You can therefore take it as being the
canon baseline containing everything I knew about the planet before
starting the write-up.  Everything from then on is the product of my
warped imagination.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:35 GMT
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <E16XIgl-0005G9-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3c5e4786.4894251@post.demon.co.uk>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:

>Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan 
>advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, 

Or alternatively (in GT) included for free in the 50-point cost of
coming from a GTL-12 background?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:37 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 2: History (part A - long)
Message-ID: <3c634d14.6316902@post.demon.co.uk>

HISTORY OF VINCENNES

The Early Years: -1950 to 57

The Vincennes system was discovered in -1950 by scout units of the
Navy of the Rule of Man.  These early explorers actually ignored the
planet that would become Vincennes:  their interest was instead caught
by the agricultural world of Paven.  A small group of Vilani colonists
was settled here under the auspices of the Imperial Navy.  Their
purpose was to act as a supply depot in this sparsely-populated border
region, providing fresh food (and R&R facilities) to elements of the
fleet operating against the flank of the Vargr incursions.  When the
Second Imperium collapsed, the Navy's 106th Independent Squadron was
effectively left to its own devices.  In -1752 its commander, Admiral
LeClerc, declared himself "Protector" of the Paven system, which
became the capital of his pocket empire.  Over the following years the
mostly-Solomani crew of the Imperial ships set themselves up as feudal
lords over the Vilani settlers, and subdued the independent worlds
within a rough 5-parsec radius of Paven.  This state of affairs was
formalised when LeClerc's daughter Helene, on her father's death,
declared herself hereditary and sovereign Queen of Paven, and awarded
titles of nobility to her chief followers. The Vilani peasants were
reduced to the status of serfs and chattel. 

During the Long Night, the Kingdom of Paven never quite lost its
space-faring capability.  However, its neighbouring worlds -- mostly
settled by a thin scattering of prospectors and homesteaders -- went
into terminal economic decline and were abandoned.  Most of their
inhabitants eventually moved to Paven (and by the time of the Third
Imperium, most records or memory of these colonies was lost).  Here,
depending on their economic value, political power, and usefulness to
the Crown, they might join the peasantry or else be rewarded with
titles and land grants.  By -1400 most of the ships of the Paven navy
were unused and useless hulks in orbit, prey to vacuum welding and
micrometeorite damage.

For the next millennium and a half, Pavenese history was a confusion
of petty dynastic squabbles, territorial wars, and occasional bursts
of high culture -- which produced some stunning works of art and
music.  Technology declined to a sustainable level of between 3 and 5,
with some exceptions where particular knowledge or advanced capability
was preserved.  Historical records of this period are sketchy and
contain many obvious distortions and inaccuracies.  At least
nominally, the LeClerc family remained in power throughout the entire
period.  However, the various monarchs' actual relationship to the
dynasty and descent from Queen Helene was often more of a polite
fiction than reality. 

This equilibrium was shattered in the years after -200.  Free traders
(Zhodani, Vilani, Sword Worlder, even Sylean) began calling at the
Paven system with greater frequency, and the people became aware once
more of the outside galaxy.  The monarchy became determined to
re-affirm its traditional claim to the surrounding worlds before they
were occupied by another nation. Unfortunately, the newest ship in the
Pavenese fleet was 1,500 years old, and none of them remained
jump-capable.  In -168, King Pierre V did the best he could to assert
his kingdom's status as an interstellar power, by sending his
patched-up "navy" on a month-long journey through realspace to the
neighbouring Undraczech/Ember star system.  Here they established a
small colony on the marginally habitable world of Vincennes.  Pierre
also took the title Emperor Pierre I to mark the occasion.

While the founding of Vincennes may have been a token gesture, carried
out more for prestige than practicality, the world soon proved to be
genuinely valuable.  Its oceans were teeming with life, and mineral
surveys of the seabeds discovered rich deposits of ore in
easily-workable form.  The population increased rapidly:  Solomani
from Paven's noble classes organised and financed the new mines, farms
and factories, while the Vilani peasantry provided the workforce.
Strategic purchases of imported high technology from free traders --
carried out under the strict control of the Emperor -- allowed the
serious environmental problems of Vincennes to be overcome.  In -34 an
even greater step was taken when Emperor Georges II founded BTV, the
system's first biotechnology company.  This utilised the rich variety
of single-celled life in Vincennes' oceans as raw material for the
production of drugs and pharmaceuticals, and gave the Empire of Paven
its first high-value export industry.  By the time the Scouts from the
Third Imperium reached the region in 49, it was Vincennes, not Paven,
that was the economic centre of the system.  (As a result Imperial
documents have always used the name "Vincennes" to refer to the entire
system, even though the political capital at this time was still on
Paven.)

Empress Julianne was quick to see the benefits membership of the
Imperium would bring to her realm's burgeoning industries.  She was,
however, determined to secure the best deal possible: and initially
held out for incorporation of the entire "traditional" Kingdom of
Paven (as of -1752) as an autonomous state within the Imperium.  That
was not acceptable to the Imperial negotiators.  However, Julianne did
secure agreement that her world would become the subsector capital,
and that she herself would be granted the hereditary title of Imperial
Marquis as a guarantee that Vincennes' local affairs would remain
independent of Imperial control.  

Furthermore, in an important symbolic gesture the treaty incorporating
Vincennes into the Imperium (in 57) was worded as an agreement between
equal sovereigns, the Emperor Artemsus and the Empress Julianne. 
(Artemsus, when informed of this demand in a routine dispatch from his
local representative in Deneb, is said to have shrugged and said that
"words cost nothing".  The people of Vincennes, on the other hand,
take great delight in pointing out that because their own Imperial
dynasty has been in existence for 168 years longer than that of the
Third Imperium, their Emperor should take social precedence over the
Emperor on Sylea/Capital.  Citizens of other worlds quickly find that
mocking this claim is an excellent way to start a bar fight.  Imperial
officials often prefer to use the title Marquis of Vincennes rather
than Emperor to avoid confusion with the Emperor of the Third
Imperium;  of course, doing so in the hearing of a Vincennien citizen
is also asking for trouble.)



Vincennes and the Third Imperium 57 - 589

The subsector government was formally established on Vincennes in 58,
when an Imperial Duke arrived "as a guest of Empress Julianne". In
fact, most of the subsector was uncolonised at this stage, so the Duke
had little actual work to do.  Eight years later, in 66, Julianne
moved the seat of government to Vincennes and formally changed her
title to Empress of Vincennes, rather than of Paven (a change which
simply brought things into line with the way the Third Imperium
already referred to her).  

She also agreed to adopt the Imperial calendar in that year, replacing
the old Terran calendar used previously (in fact, during the Long
Night the Pavenese reckoning of the date had come adrift by four years
from the actual count of Terran years:  when this became general
knowledge, it speeded the acceptance of the Imperial dating system).
Julianne had already passed an Imperial Edict in 56 removing all
references to "chattel" in the legal definition of a serf under
Vincennien law, although the practical consequences of this for the
penniless and illiterate Pavenese peasantry were minimal.

For the next few centuries, Vincennes prospered as a centre of
Imperial trade and colonisation.  It was situated on the direct route
between Deneb (gateway to the Imperial Core) and Mora, the centre of
development for the Spinward Marches; and the world benefited greatly
from passing traffic as well as acting as a centre for local
development.  As in the Second Imperium, the primary export of the
system was food and supplies for starships:  but now these consisted
primarily of hydroponics systems, specially tailored high-nutrition,
low-bulk foodstuffs and dietary supplements.  Medicines and
pharmaceuticals also became a local speciality, as colonists and
scouts visited many new worlds with strange, hostile biospheres.  On a
different note, Vincennien brandy and Vincennien hallucinogenic drugs
(as preferred, or as permitted by local law) became the recreational
substances of choice for seven subsectors.  

Although Vincennes did not establish any colonies itself during this
period (its own growing industries absorbed all its population) it did
provide financial and material support to many of the newly-settled
worlds in the subsector. This gave the Emperors of Vincennes a lot of
informal power and influence in the region: a development which was
largely overlooked at the time by Imperial authorities more concerned
with events in the Spinward Marches.

Although the earliest settlement on Vincennes had been on the planet's
single continent, the almost constant hurricane-force winds meant that
construction had to be largely underground.  As soon as the available
technology allowed (in c. 250) it was decided to shift most of the
population into new underwater arcologies, safe under the oceans from
the planet's weather conditions and -- more importantly -- closer to
its primary sources of mineral wealth in the deep sea trenches.  

The arcologies were mostly financed and built by the Crown, out of
taxpayers' money and the profits of trade.  However, in 262 Emperor
Yves assigned each of them (along with a share of its revenue) to his
favourite nobles to administer as fiefs.  Until that date, most of the
nobility had maintained their traditional homes and estates on Paven;
but now the majority moved to their new luxury accommodation in the
arcologies.  Paven therefore fell victim to the "absentee landlord"
syndrome.  The nobles now saw that agricultural planet as just an
extra source of revenue rather than a home to be cherished, and so
exploited its inhabitants mercilessly.  

Over the next two centuries, popular unrest on Paven against
Vincennien rule would grow steadily.  Unable to keep order themselves,
the nobles turned to the Crown for assistance:  royal troops
established garrisons and turned Paven into a virtual police state.
Rebellious villagers were often deported en masse to Vincennes,
assigned to the lowest levels of the arcologies and the undersea
mines.  Unable to fight the State openly, the people of Paven turned
to passive resistance.  This included the recovery (or outright
re-invention, to be honest) of their Vilani cultural traditions and
heritage, suppressed during two millennia of Solomani domination.
(Barrack-room rumours in Vincennes Grand Army units stationed on Paven
whispered that rebellious peasants would kill and *eat* any soldier
they managed to catch alone.).

During the mid-400s, relations between the Imperial government and the
Vincennes Crown became more strained.  At last, the Imperial Dukes
took notice of the informal sphere of control that the emperors of
Vincennes wielded over the other worlds in the subsector, and
recognised the threat to their own authority.  The result was a long
series of political confrontations and manoeuvring as each party
strove to establish their hegemony.  The Crown (Emperor Georges IV and
then Empress Marianne during this period) was careful to avoid any
open provocation that would lead to direct Imperial intervention --
although on several occasions the subsector Duke attempted to
manufacture an incident that would justify exactly that.  Instead,
each side used a mixture of bribery and concealed threats to persuade
other world governments to ally with them. 

In the long term, the deeper pockets of the Imperium gave it the
advantage in this campaign, although the cost was high -- including
the expansion of the Imperial Navy research centre on HRD/Deneb
(1623), a Ministry of Colonisation regional headquarters on
Jonkeer/Deneb (1324) and investment in several new starports and Scout
bases throughout the subsector.  Matters finally came to a head in 506
with the Paven Incident. 

In that year, an open rebellion broke out on Paven (financed and
supported by covert off-world interests, as subsequent investigation
would prove).  Lurid tales of massacres (and cannibalism -- although
this was never proven) inflamed public opinion on Vincennes, and a
huge expeditionary force was organised to put down the rebellion.  At
that point, the revolutionary committee on Paven appealed directly to
the Imperial Duke to be recognised as a sovereign and independent
world under Imperial law, and thus entitled to Imperial protection
against "off-world invasion".

Their argument was that the 55 AU distance between Paven and Vincennes
was far enough that all travel between the worlds was done by jump
drive, making them effectively two different star systems.  The Duke
publicly accepted this argument.  He ordered the Imperial 258th Fleet
(which, coincidentally, just happened to be on standby in a
neighbouring system) to jump immediately to Paven and interdict the
world, preventing the Vincennien force from landing.  In response,
Empress Marianne despatched most of Vincennes' SDB fleet through
normal space to Paven -- simultaneously making a political point and
confronting the Imperial Fleet with a superior force.  

For several tense weeks, the two fleets faced off against each other
in orbit, as the massacres continued on the planet's surface and
Imperial couriers rushed to call reinforcements from the fleets in
neighbouring subsectors.  However, now face-to-face with the reality
of open war against the Imperium -- a war she knew she could not win
-- Marianne was forced to back down.  The terms included the surrender
of most of her off-world interests: selling the royal holdings in
other worlds' economies to the subsector Duke and to the Imperial
family on Capital. (However, the price agreed in return would provide
a huge capital boost to Vincennes' economy and her own private
fortune).  In return, the Imperium agreed to regard Paven as part of
the Vincennes system rather than an independent world -- this was,
after all, simply a return to the status quo ante and thus no real
blow to their prestige. 

The long-term result of the Incident was that Vincennes' power in the
subsector was curtailed.  This triggered something of an economic
downturn in the region, as Vincennes turned inwards and the flow of
Imperial investment to counterbalance it was also cut off.  Vincennes
itself flourished, however.  Marianne invested the proceeds of
liquidating the royal family's off-world assets into setting up new
heavy engineering and industrial plant, to balance the world's
existing strengths in the "softer" biological sciences.  This reduced
the construction costs of new arcologies, led to a settlement of
Undraczech's other planets and moons and the establishment of orbital
industries, and made Vincennes into a major shipbuilding power. (The
greater military potential this would eventually give her world was
doubtless not missed by Empress Marianne).  

As for Paven, the Imperial Navy jumped away from the world and left
the Vincennien fleet free to crush the rebellion as "a matter of
internal security".  The subsequent oppression was thorough and
brutal, and ever since then the Pavenese have regarded the Third
Imperium's action as the worst kind of betrayal.


_____________________________________________________

Next:  The conclusion of Vincennes' history.  The Civil War, the
Vincennes economic miracle, and the ugly truth of what actually
happened on Perez.  Genocide, slavery, illegal psionics, flying
cities, and a face-to-face confrontation between Vincennes' ruler and
the Empress of the Third Imperium...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:40 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 1: Library Data
Message-ID: <3c624bd6.5998366@post.demon.co.uk>

INTRODUCTION

Cutting edge.  That's the proud slogan of the world of Vincennes.
Whether it comes to technology or fashion, Vincennes leads the way.
Its people are self-confident, proud of their achievements and firm
believers in progress.  Vincennes is the (self-proclaimed) most
technologically advanced world in the Domain of Deneb.  Its economy is
the powerhouse of an entire sector.  Almost four million sophonts pass
through its starports every month -- on business, as tourists, or as
immigrants eager to grab their share of Vincennes' rapidly-expanding
prosperity.

And yet, the slogan carries another meaning.  Vincennes is potentially
the blade that could tear the Domain's peace apart.  Any
high-population industrial world has the economic power to overbalance
and dominate its neighbours:  but when a planet can arm its local
defence troops to a higher standard than Imperial Marines, the danger
increases immeasurably.  Add to this the fact that Vincennes is ruled
by a dynasty of absolute monarchs older than the Third Imperium.
Unchecked by any domestic restraints, they have in the past shown
themselves perfectly willing to defy the Imperium and engage in
military adventurism.  The people of Vincennes believe it is only
right and proper that they bear the honour of playing host to the
subsector capital:  in truth, the Deneb government hardly dares to
turn its back on this world for a moment...


(NOTE:  outsiders, and standard Library Data files, pronounce the
world's name in standard Anglic fashion, as "vinSENZ".  Locals,
however, insist on pronouncing the name in the archaic French style,
as "VANsonn".  Using either pronunciation in the wrong company can
occasionally have embarrassing consequences...)

_____________________________________________________

LIBRARY DATA

(This is based on the RSB, and is the canonical data on which the rest
of the landgrab is based.  It can be considered "common knowledge"
about the world.)


Vincennes/Deneb (1122)  A/899AA6-G  Hi In Cp  -113  Im  K7V M7V G1V

Capital of Vincennes subsector in Deneb Sector, Domain of Deneb.

Vincennes is currently the only industrial world in the Domain of
Deneb to have reached a level of technology higher than Imperial
standard.  The population lives either in underwater metroplexes
around the world's sole continent, or in 71 gravitic cities which can
vary their altitude to suit the prevailing weather conditions.

The system layout is somewhat unusual.  Vincennes is in the life zone
of the K7V star Undraczech, but it actually orbits that star's dim red
companion, the M7V star Ember.  Depending on whether Vincennes is
between the two stars or on the far side of Ember from Undraczech, its
mean temperature varies by approximately 85 K.  This wide thermal
range leads to tremendous storms sweeping the planet on a regular
basis.

The third star in the system, Guazhirniim, orbits at a great distance.
Its own planetary sub-system includes the agricultural world of Paven,
which produces most of Vincennes' food supply.

_____________________________________________________


The next post will cover Vincennes' early history:  chattel slavery,
the Office of Calendar Compliance, and cannibalism* ...

(* never proven)


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:29:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:29:40 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #99
In-Reply-To: <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:05:25AM +1300
References: <3C5B0FCD.28141.5DBD28@localhost>; <20020201092112.A17113@4dv.net> <3C5DDE55.23588.54E81B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020203092940.A2236@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:05:25AM +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 

> Ah, but actually you don't, because your gallon's actually a bit
> over 8 pounds of water, so the Imperial gallon of 10 pounds of water
> is at least as sensible and because the Imperial system uses 20
> fliud ounces to the pint they're nearly the same as your ounces, and
> are exactly_ one ounce of water, rather than almost an ounce of
> water.

First I heard of it.  My best friend growing up had a pool/spa/deck
store owner for a father, and the rule they used for the weight of
water was a gallon = 8 lbs.

Now, as far as the fact that no two cups measure exactly the same and
that hence one man's ounce is not another's, that I'll not dispute.
But it's all well within epsilon, or should be.

OTOH, I used units to get the ml in a gallon (3785.4118), then to get
the pounds in 3785.4118 grams.  It yielded 8.3454045, which agrees
with you.  Which makes no sense, but that's life.

Why we lost our regular and well-defined gallon is a matter for
another day.  I've no doubt it has something nefarious to do with the
System Which Shall Not Be Named.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
_Money_ is gold.  Fiats are green.  --Bryan J. Maloney

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:38:34 GMT
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk> <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, 

Is that by Far Trader?  If so don't forget to multiply by 1.4 because
Trin is an industrial world.  Also, according to Behind the Claw
Trin's population is 22 billion, not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP
is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

>so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.

Different systems.  According to Striker, 3% of GWP is a typical naval
budget - it's just that Striker gives a different value for GWP than
GT:FT does.

>The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  

30% of the military budget is Imperial *naval* taxes.  (0.9% of GWP
assuming a 3% military budget).  The Imperium might take even more
money in other forms, however...

>Trin's trade is
>0.15% of GWP.  

Actually, Trin's trade with its six largest trade partners alone
accounts for 0.15% of its GWP, although admittedly the total is going
to be very small anyway.  Trade with Mora is worth GCr300, or 0.06% of
GWP (BTN of 13 reduced to 11 for distance), trade with Vincennes,
Tobia, Glisten, Strouden and Lunion is worth GCr 75 per world. (0.2%
each).

Incidentally, this means that there are a lot more Major Trade Routes
crossing the Imperium than I'd suspected.  Just about every subsector
will have several - not necessarily visiting any worlds there, but
crossing it en route from one WTN 6+ planet to another many parsecs
away...  There's one from Mora to Regina straight up the Spinward
Main, for example (on reaching Regina it splits into several feeder
routes).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:45:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <20020202085618.A20573@4dv.net>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203084344.00ab41e0@mail.verizon.net>

Robert,

You might want to look at wxWindows (http://www.wxwindows.org) as an 
alternative. It works with GTK, Motif, Windows, and there's a Mac port in 
the works. I've worked with it in the past, and it hides a lot of the 
details that you'd have to deal with otherwise. Oh yeah, and it's Open 
Source too.  :-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 08:56 AM 2/2/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:01:25PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> >
> > I understand someone is working on an XML library data format (Mark
> > Preston?), and that Robert Uhl is developing a C library for dealing
> > with such data.
>
>Fairly close.  The library stores & reads data in an XML-like format.
>It's not Mr. Preston's format, and in fact to support that format
>would no doubt require a bit of reworking.  Which wouldn't necessarily
>be a Bad Thing...
>
>The library itself is actually finished (or rather, my first cut at
>the features a library needs is finished).  I am now trying to write a
>frontend using GNOME/gtk+/libtrav/libtravguile/C/guile.
>
>Incidentally, if anyone here has experience with gtk+, please give me
>a holler.  I'm having a deuce of a time with GtkCTrees.
>
> > My aims for this task are slightly different: I want
> > to be able to do large-scale analysis rather than flexibly deal with
> > individual systems in fine detail.  It seems to me that a database
> > with a small amount of wrapper code in a high-level language like PHP
> > should be pretty much ideal for what I want to be able to do.
>
>I actually did something similar with Perl & MySQL about a year ago.
>It was fairly slow, but that was no doubt due to my data
>representation.  It was very cool, though.
>
>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
>By skill-of-sword we may not win
>But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
>Of arquebuse and culverin
>Honor is lost and none may tell
>Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
>                             --Kipling


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:19:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:19:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202031718.g13HI1225196@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
...
>Imperium fairly clearly can take out an single world (though if 
>several get together, they're in trouble, Trin and Mora combined 
>could effectively defy the the entire sector).

  Frankly, if either Trin or Mora figured out a way to move their
system FTL, letting them be might be the best course :>

  Seriously, much of the defenders advantage goes away when they
have to defend multiple critical sites, let alone two star systems
separated by several Jumps.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:28:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:28:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <200202030828.AAA09599@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>

At 12:28 AM 02/03/02 -0800, you wrote:
>GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
>
>>> AFAICT, opposed landings in Traveller would be a nightmare.
>>
>>Probably. I have an uncle who lived through three of them in WWII, and he 
>>still has nightmares . . . 
>
>Yeah, but at least in WWII soldiers weren't subject to being shot at by
>shore batteries on the other side of the planet (ah, the joys of deep
>meson sites)

I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
  http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:30:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:30:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020203172245.A10956@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203093030.006bf8ec@mindspring.com>

At 05:22 PM 02/03/02 +1100, you wrote:
>Terry Carlino wrote:
>> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
>> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
>> degrade.
>
>Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
>and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?

In Traveller terms, we are hardly high tech.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:34:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:34:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203093447.006c2be4@mindspring.com>

At 01:55 AM 02/03/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:59:41, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>I was thinking of seven or eight crates of Mac's finest myself. :)
>
>Oops - you're right; for some reason, I did 100 bottles instead of 200.  It 
>should be about eight and a half cases, or 20 gallons.  That's 4 batches, 
>and a serious amount of beer.  When's BayCon again?

May 2003.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 18:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:03:58 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de>
 
> > Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> > advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, and
> > Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points. Advantages that
> > offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game should not have
> > anything more than a nominal cost.
> >
> Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15
> points. I can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper -
> it is, after all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander
> tune* Of course you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and
> immunities too, less you wont have too much fun with it ;-)

That's one of my major problems with GURPS.  Charging that 
many points for an Advantage that is cool that makes the character 
more powerful or more versatile is completely unfair.
 
> IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer
> something like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long
> way to achieve them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

I agree that players love this sort of thing, but why does charging 
more points better motivate PCs?  I'd say a far better answer is to 
simply make the advantage not available during character 
generation and then give out hints on how it might be obtained.
 
> Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled
> after the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF
> series over here) Cellular Activator. 

Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
Does anyone else remember these books.

Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> It's an egg-shaped metallic
> device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> Regeneration (probably even both).
> 
> If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.

Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary. 
 
> But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:44:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203015353.025aeec0@mail.qrc.com>
 <200202010917.g119HAK10496@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094432.006c234c@mindspring.com>

At 01:46 AM 02/04/02 +1300, you wrote:

>Yes, it is. Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a 
>month, and the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was
bottled. 
>Lots of bottles, though. Before Doug revised 'reasonable' to include only
North 
>America I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre
buckets 
>of beer from here to the US would be. :)

Hmmm..  It would be cool to meet you..

We pay half the fare.  You need to make it to US soil.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:46:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJODKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1012586765.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094655.006c1b30@mindspring.com>

At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.

Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:49:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Writing again
In-Reply-To: <148.8ddabd4.298e228e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203094919.006c1284@mindspring.com>

At 12:20 AM 02/03/02 EST, you wrote:
>> >Hey!  It was Polka Hour.  You can't turn down the radio during Polka Hour!
>>  
>>  *snort*  Since I'm writing again, I've warned the wife and roommate to
>>  expect lots of Metallica, Guns'n'Roses, and Tool to be coming out of the
>>  office.  If they don't like it, they can deal.
>
>Doug's writing again . . . hmmmmm . . . wonder what it is.*
>
>LKW
>
>* This is trolling . . . I happen to know what he's writing.

Yeah, thanks for letting me write _GURPS Traveller: Penguins of the Third
Imperium_.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"  
  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:33:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Murder
In-Reply-To: <89.12e12f81.298c9a43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202031232170.19608-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry I should have been more specific. I was interested in murder 
> definitions because the UK definition is something like (and I'm going from 
> memory here so accuracy is not guaranteed)
> 
> "Any deliberate action or inaction that, within a year and a day, causes the 
> death of the product of a human mother"

I would hope that uterine replicators (cf. Bujold, among others) would be
in full usage by the Third Imperium!

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:34:18 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELFCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> > It's an egg-shaped metallic
> > device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> > offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> > Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> > Regeneration (probably even both).
> >
> > If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> > deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> > at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> > something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> > poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> > that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> > after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.
>
> Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary.
>
Probably not. But it makes for some interesting drama in the PR series, so
why not use it? If your Cellular Activator is stolen, you're in deep
trouble. Should tune the paranoia factor up a few degrees ;-))


> > But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.
>
> Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.
>
It's still in the early planning stages, but yes, I think so, too. :-)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:42:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9AE5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020203204222.74125.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>

I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
cubic meter.

Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with. 


As a fix for FF&S, I'd suggest dividing the required volume of a
vehicle workstation by 10 and using that.  This should bring vehicles
designed in this system back into line with their real-world
counterparts.

'Course, I could just be relieving myself into a stiff breeze ...

=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:48:03 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F2058azEqeZkhN9AU1O000046e3@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them."


Mr. Little,

     Superb illustration of the idea, sir.  That's exactly what I've been 
trying, and failing, to point out on the JTAS boards.
     Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin 
would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at 
the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or 
potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far 
more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:52:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:52:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>
References: <200202030826.AAA29910@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020204075233.A13103@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Actually, Trin's GWP is 210 TCr/year (it's an Industrial world),

Oops, got that right the previous time I posted, but forgot it this
time :(  I consider myself corrected.


> Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent
> to BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval
> tax.

My current program isn't working right, then :(

I did check it by hand, looking at all WTN 6+ worlds within the
surrounding 8 subsectors (there aren't many).  I guess that means that
the vast majority of trade goes 2 subsectors or more.

I'll re-check when my database is up and running (nearly there!) :)


> Of course, based on FFW fleet strengths, the naval expenditure of
> the 3I is well under the canon figure, which may mean 3% is for
> small worlds, and Trin actually spends something like 1% (0.3% tax),
> which may be comparable to the value of trade and mutual defense to
> Trin.

Quite likely.  These figures look more reasonable.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
Message-ID: <200202032051.MAA16219@molly.iii.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

>At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>
>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.

However, creative stalling might lead to all sorts of useful concessions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:55:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F180WicigQkQiHR9dIz0000b6e9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Stephen Tempest wrote:  Both Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker give 
Trin a naval budget of about 12 trillion credits per year.  Striker then 
says that 30% of this is taken by the Imperium in taxes,..."

     "Trin's GWP is 150 TCr/year, so total naval expenditure is 8% of GWP.  
The Imperium thus takes 2.4% of Trin's GWP in taxes.  Trin's trade is 0.15% 
of GWP.  Thus the Imperial taxes are 16 times total trade
>volume.  This is pretty much what I suspected."


Mr. Little,

     The mavens over on the JTAS boards have pretty much scrapped the 
TCS/Striker tax model.  The monies that model generates creates an Imperial 
Navy an order of magnitude larger than the one described in canon, even when 
you add in the subsector, or colonial, fleets and any SDB forces.  They 
currently peg Imperial taxes at ~0.3% of Trin's GWP, which is still larger 
than the trade volume.
     The handwave to explain away the TCS/Striker model is that it is from a 
pocket empires setting.  The polities in a much smaller and have far more 
enemies, thus are forced to spend much more.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 20:57:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
Message-ID: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com>

Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:

>I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
>old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
>average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
>cubic meter.

Laugh.  Try about 3 cubic feet, .08 cubic meters (assumes 180 lb/80 kg).
Density of humans is very close to water.

>Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
>vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
>workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
>moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
>an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
>multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
>average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with. 

If you actually look at real-world vehicles, the driver's seat in a car,
including controls (steering wheel, etc) occupies a region slightly under
a meter wide, somewhat over a meter tall, somewhat over a meter long.
Total volume somewhat over a cubic meter, though a significant fraction 
of it is occupied (by controls and seat).  That's still far less than 
FF&S values.  For comparison, in GURPS Vehicles crewstations are 20-40 cf
(0.55-1.1 cubic meters)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:00:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:00:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
>> Trin's combined trade (with all trade partners) is about equivalent
>> to BTN-12, or 1-3 TCr/year, making it roughly equal to Trin's naval
>> tax.
>
>My current program isn't working right, then :(

You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource worlds
trading with Industrial worlds.  The other thing is, Trin has lots of
links; it only has 4 at BTN 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10,
30+ at 9.5.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:05:43 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200202011121.DAA00923@molly.iii.com> <3C5BD781.BB7459EB@mindspring.com> <3c5e9c14.50801949@post.demon.co.uk> <20020203181623.C10956@freeman.little-possums.net> <3c5d3e65.2557249@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020204080543.B13103@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Is that by Far Trader?  If so don't forget to multiply by 1.4 because
> Trin is an industrial world.

Yeah, did that in earlier posts, but forgot for that one. :(


>  Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population is 22 billion,
> not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop multiplier of 1 for
Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that when I get it into the database.  So if
Andrew is right, then bilateral trade is about 0.4% of GWP.


> Trade with Mora is worth GCr300, or 0.06% of GWP

Are you using the arithmetic mean?  Shouldn't you be using the
geometric mean since this is a logarithmic scale?  I have the same
BTN, but only counted it as GCr 180 (i.e. 10^11.25, halfway between
10^11 and 10^11.5)


> Incidentally, this means that there are a lot more Major Trade Routes
> crossing the Imperium than I'd suspected.

Yeah, based on Andrew's numbers, almost all trade goes more than half
a sector, and based on some asymptotic analysis of Far Trader I find
that about 1/2 of all trade for a high-pop system in the Spinward
Marches goes to the main body of the Imperium 4+ sectors away!  Not a
great deal per planet, but there's a *lot* of planets.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AEC9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>QSDS tries, but IMO it's not very good (a gearhead's idea of what a simple

>system should be, not a true simple system).

OK, I'll bite.  How can QSDS be improved?  Do you need fewer 
options?  Fewer things to keep track of*?  What parts of it are confusing, 
and what parts work well?  I'll agree that it *is* more complicated that 
Book 2 (although at least potentially a lot more capable), and seems 
reasonable comparable to the GURPS Traveller "modular" system.

* For example, QSDS tracks surface area (and also lists length, in case you

want to install a spinal mount.  The debate over including surface area (or

not) was a large one, with good points on both sides.<

That's a good question. I completely understand what he means by a "a
gearhead's idea of simple but not really simple", but it's much harder to
put into words. 

But I'll try. So be aware that these are my personal reactions based on my
personal feeling of what Traveller should be. 

1. Config. I dont really care about the shape of the ship. The shape of the
ship doesn't affect roleplaying. I *only* care about the degree of
streamlining. 

2. Area. I dont care about usable surface area. Doesn't affect roleplaying.

3. USD Size. I dont know what this is or why I should care? Doesn't seem to
be the same as the "USP" in High Guard. If I *did* care I'd want to know
why this system couldn't handle size 0-7 or 9 or more?

4. DRIVES - Jump Drive. Area. I don't care about the surface area of the
grid. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Am I really going to meausure? Do I count
antennaes? Can I expanded 'grid-wings' and then contract them after the
jump? Volume should be enough to decide if I can use this drive. 

5. Manuever Drives. HELPlaR Drive. Area. I don't care about the surface
area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to decide if I can
use this drive. 

6. Manuever Drives. Standard Thrust-Plate Drive. Area. I don't care about
the surface area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to
decide if I can use this drive. 

7. AVIONICS. Sensors. Area. Here's the antennae size I need to measure! I
don't care about the surface area. Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should
be enough to decide if I can use this.

8. AVIONICS. Communications. Area. I don't care about the surface area.
Doesnt affect roleplaying. Volume should be enough to decide if I can use
this. I think you see the pattern here...

9. WEAPONS. Spinal Mount Weapons. Without this, the entire system is
useless to me. If I can't build ALL my ships with this system, I dont want
to learn a 'new' system. 

10. WORKSTATIONS. I'm counting workstations? I dont care about
workstations. Doesn't affect roleplaying. Give me the whole room as a "lab"
of some kind or figure I can plug in a hub whereever I want!

Well, that ought to give you an idea of how I look at it.

And of course, following the usual "Don't-Speak-Unless-It's-To-Complain"
Internet protocol let it be said that this is the most promising design
system for Traveller I've seen so far. It looks like it'll cover all the
bases and produce good balanced ships. 

Just a little too much 'extraneous' stuff for me. I want to be able to see
a ship on Babylon 5 or Andromeda and build completely it 20 minutes later. 

JMO

>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Umm ... are you sure you aren't thinking of SSDS?
>>>>>>>>>>On actually checking, yeah, I was thinking of SSDS.  I was
annoyed with QSDS
>>>>>>>>>>for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

I am *not* mixing up the two. I've looked at SSDS and found it too tedious
long ago. 

>>>>Incidentally, it would not be incredibly hard to make a version of FF&S
which
>>>>lets you use the High Guard ship design system.  It woudl, of course,
be
>>>>incompatible with other design sequences, but that's not a disaster.

Sounds like a great idea. 

>>>>>>> What would you consider a "true simple system"? (Examples are nice,
but not 
>>>>>>>necessary.)
>>>>>>>  Do you want just a single set of controlling numbers (ala Book 2 
>>>>>>>displacement), or better explanations, or fewer options, or
preassembled 
>>>>>>>pieces, or... what? Inquiring gearheads want to know...

Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] High Guard (2nd ed) Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AEC7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Not striker, but you might like to try my program for HG ships at:

http://www.downport.com/amv/software/hgs.html
<

Excellent work here! Thanks!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Merchant Prince?
Message-ID: <200202031641_MC3-F08E-AEDB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Actually, I'm going through a very gradual (3 years and counting)
top-to-bottom evaluation and creation of My Own Personal Ideal Traveller
Ruleset, retooling MegaTraveller mostly.  So far I've made myself pretty
happy with the task system, char-gen, and combat, and have just started in
on Craft Design (literally, yesterday -- see my post in 'The Fleet' section
of the CotI forums).  Eventually I'm planning to take a long look at Trade
& Commerce and World Creation as well, but I'm not there yet.

Trent<

Wow - this sounds fascinating - I'd love to see some of this if you need
kibitzing...

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Friendly reminder
Message-ID: <200202031641_MC3-F08E-AEDD@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 

Please remember to clean out you mailboxes.  I'm getting lots of bounced
messages because accounts are over quota.

Thanks, Listmom<

What does this mean? How do I do this? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:40:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Battle rider set available
Message-ID: <200202031640_MC3-F08E-AECB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> *Battle Rider 
Boxed 
This is so rare that even I have only seen one once . . . 
LKW
<

Really? I pass it up all the time. Never heard is was much good. 

If anyone wants to trade for a set, contact me off-line. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 21:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:50:59 +1100
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>
References: <200202032100.NAA15267@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020204085059.A13251@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource
> worlds trading with Industrial worlds.

Probably.  I'm not at home at the moment (stealing work time), so I
can't check.


>  The other thing is, Trin has lots of links; it only has 4 at BTN
> 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10, 30+ at 9.5.

Yep, when doing it by hand I assumed that the links under BTN 10 would
add up to less than BTN 10.5, which still looks right based on your
figures.

Does your program include trade links with the main body of the
Imperium, or just within neighbouring sectors?  A rough analysis shows
that the total trade volume should roughly double over that within the
sector due to the *huge* number of worlds over 50 parsecs away.  My
program didn't take those into account at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 22:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:23:29 -0700
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>; from shanhat@angelfire.com on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 

> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?

Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
`naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.

> In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.

Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
one is not properly equipped.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:06:06 +1300
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5E792E.11074.6C5833@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 10:03, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
> I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
> 14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
> Does anyone else remember these books.
> 
> Does anyone else in the US remember these books?

Don't know about the US, but over here there's a large pile of 'em in my 
favourite secondhand book store. I grabbed one the other day and the first 
thing I noticed was how atrocious the style was. Whether that was the foult of 
the original authors or the translator I do not know. 


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:06:06 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #113
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020203094432.006c234c@mindspring.com>
References: <3C5DE7E5.7461.7A4386@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C5E792E.10092.6C581B@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 9:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Hmmm..  It would be cool to meet you..
> 
> We pay half the fare.  You need to make it to US soil.

May 2003, you say? Hmm...


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:03:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <20020203204222.74125.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018d01c1ad07$16b324e0$a672893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Harris" <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 03 February 2002 20:42
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations


I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.  Using an
old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant") I worked out the
average human being has a volume of about 4 cubic feet, or about 0.1
cubic meter.

Why, pray tell, in just about every incarnation of Traveller, are the
vehicle workstation sizes so unbelievably huge?  I understand the
workstation sizes for starships as you've got "lots" of extra space for
moving-around room.  However, when putting together a vehicle, such as
an automobile or even a combat vehicle, there is no need for
multi-cubic meter volume for individual workstations.  At most, your
average human is going to need 0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with.
-->

This was covered in a discussion last year. In summary, a revised set of
volumes for normal seating was devised, as follows:

Roomy - 1.5 m3, 4 h
Adequate - 0.75 m3, 2 h
Cramped - 0.6 m3, 1 h
Restricted - 0.45 m3, 30 m
Standing - 0.15 m3, 15 m

I guess a small vehicle workstation could add another 1 m3 volume or
slightly less. Each seat size allows a different amount of time before a
fatigue roll needs to be made, the times noted above. Although the human
body only takes 0.1 m3 (give or take), allowance must be made for
clothing, and the fact that you can't pack humans in the hold the same way
you can pack bricks together. There is some waste volume.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 22:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:37:38 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net> <20020202094923.A16926@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEJLDKAA.carlino@cox.net> <3.0.3.32.20020203093030.006bf8ec@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <018c01c1ad07$157d6400$a672893e@fabian>

> At 05:22 PM 02/03/02 +1100, you wrote:
> >Terry Carlino wrote:
> >> Except that that is the entire premise of the Long Night, high tech
> >> worlds must have external trading partners or their tech level will
> >> degrade.
> >
> >Earth's doomed, then.  We've got no external trading partners at all,
> >and never have had any!  How did we ever get out of the Bronze Age?
>
> In Traveller terms, we are hardly high tech.

I'd interpret teh long night's loss of interstellar trade as a use it or
lose it proposition. Interstellar trade stopped, so the infrastructure
required for interstellar trade wasn't maintained, and eventually the
knowledge of the technology required for interstellar trade vanished. A
Terran equivalent would be Easter Island. They arrived by boat across the
pacific, but stopped using boats for long sea voyages, and so lost that
technology. Scaling that forwards, we have a galacti community
collectively ceasing interstellar travel, and collectively losing the
related facilities and knowledge. It strains credulity, but I believe the
analogy is correct.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:06:10 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENFHEAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202040957450.16324-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Frank & Andrew:

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Andrew Whincup wrote :
>
> > Out of curiosity what do other people consider an
> > appropriate level of armament to carry round in public?
>
> In normal circumstances, nothing.

 Hmm.. being in Dan Zen Ryu <Okazaki style> jiujitsu for almost 40 years.
Har to say what I carry isn't a weapon. Assorted coins, belt, boot laces,
swiss army knife <real one> Leatherman on the belt. Key ring with the pipe
tool. An the stick on the right hand side for what is left of the right
leg.

> It's too easy to kill people _without_ weapons, and I can't
> afford to get into trouble with the law.

 Yeah I had my time in bar fights shortly after I returned to the "real
world". Back when pitchers were made of glass., Stools, pool balls, pool
cues. Police got real familiar with me in the early 70s. Anything can be
turned into a weapon.

> I usually only carry weapons when going to archery, fencing, and
> SCA events.

 I carry mine to and from my Martial Arts class. Haven't done Archery for
many years. Fencing is dead in this area. So my 30+ year old equipment
hangs on the wall. SCA we are rejoining and have been accpeted in the
McGurns. Been about 10 years since we played in that group.

> When I go bush I take a Victorinox, a hand axe,  and usually a
> couple of other appropriate blades. On rare occassions, I'll
> actually carry a rifle, though as I don't own one, I'm usually
> carrying it for someone else in the party.

 Out in the bush. I take the patch knife, long knife. two 45 cal muzzel
loader pistols, one 36 cal muzzel loading revolver and my 45 cal Hawkins
rifle. A good hatchet and camp gear.

> Should I feel threatened when at home I pick up the Indonesian
> fighting machete at my bedside. But that's only happened once.

 Well here it is a commune of gamers and C=/Amiga users. All into Martial
ARts and weapondry. Wish I could say we never had a time that we neede to
pull out the weapons. But that isn't true. We do security for the land
lord's property. Been a few druggies that caused problems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 23:45:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:45:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>

Look at it a different way: why does California remain part of the United 
States? Or Manhattan? Why does Sydney or Bali or Istanbul remain part of 
their respective nations?

Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having the 
Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way 
from Trin.

Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much more 
effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage 
of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem, 
launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack. A 
continuous, rolling hit-and-run war of cruiser squadrons...or even better, a 
small fleet of battle tenders ferrying battle riders into the system.

Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays 
in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

******************
The only problem is that Trin *does* pay for the war fleet, either
way.  Look at the GWP of all the planets nearby; economically the
subsector consists of Trin, and ... umm, Trin.  The second largest
economy is about 100 times smaller.  If you think of Trin as being the
US, the subsector consists mainly of countries smaller than Fiji.  The
next largest economy corresponds to roughly New Zealand.  The third
largest corresponds roughly to Tasmania.
Of course, the higher Imperial taxes do confer some benefits.  In
particular, they can call on other subsector fleets if the Hierate
seriously decides to invade.  They also get the benefit of not having
the other subsector fleets *attack* them.- - Tim

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:01:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:01:24 +1100
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <F158vLDSsBmCwH8zUGO00016968@hotmail.com>

Rupert and Tod

The fact that I can't carry mace, stunguns or firearms absolutely terrifies 
me. Australia's rate of violent crime has increased tenfold since we 
introduced the firearms ban -- just ask Charlton Heston and the NRL.

Chuck and his mates however didn't feel it necessary to consult anybody in 
Australia to make that assertion -- they just *knew* it had to be true.

*********************
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives

On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:
>It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have mace.
Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a
handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it on 
you
for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range. 
However
you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason 
(though
the police carry pepper spray).- --"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:50:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pat Connaughton)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:50:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Friendly reminder
References: <B87C7DDD.2249F%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1ad21$1ba97160$a64cfea9@swbell.net>

Sorry about that. I appear to be subscribed on two different e-mail
addresses. I've tried to unsub several times with :patconnaughton@earthlink
Any suggestion?

Thanks
Pat



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:37:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:37:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>

"Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:

>Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having the 
>Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way 
>from Trin.

Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
the power nor the reason to attack Trin.

>Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much more 
>effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage 
>of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem, 
>launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.

Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.

>Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays 
>in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:30:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Question : power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040030.QAA23010@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> You're probably failing to take into account the +0.5 for Resource
>> worlds trading with Industrial worlds.
>
>Probably.  I'm not at home at the moment (stealing work time), so I
>can't check.
>
>
>>  The other thing is, Trin has lots of links; it only has 4 at BTN
>> 11, but it's got (IIRC) 7 at 10.5, 13 at 10, 30+ at 9.5.
>
>Yep, when doing it by hand I assumed that the links under BTN 10 would
>add up to less than BTN 10.5, which still looks right based on your
>figures.
>
>Does your program include trade links with the main body of the
>Imperium, or just within neighbouring sectors?  A rough analysis shows
>that the total trade volume should roughly double over that within the
>sector due to the *huge* number of worlds over 50 parsecs away.  My
>program didn't take those into account at all.

I only ran it on the Marches and Deneb; my program's capable of more,
but generating complete maps is rather time-consuming.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:00:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>; from ajackson@iii.com on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:37:27PM -0800
References: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020203180022.A3698@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:37:27PM -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

Which, neatly enough, isn't much of a loss in the Imperium, as opposed
to the USA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 00:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:50:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strategic Mobility (was: Power of the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <200202032051.MAA16219@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020203165005.006ad858@mindspring.com>

At 12:51 PM 02/03/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>>At 07:12 PM 02/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>>
>>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.
>
>However, creative stalling might lead to all sorts of useful concessions.

And this we have both a good adventure for the types who like palace
intrigue, and some wonderful backstory.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 02:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:43:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <007701c1ad25$ccdcc460$c7d7d63f@customer>

"Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
> "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having
the
> >Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long*
way
> >from Trin.
>
> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.

You seem to think that Trin exsist in a vacuum (no pun inteneded).  The
reason Trin is so safe is because the Imperium is so strong on it's
frontier.  But if every Hi-Pop world starts going off on it's own then the
Imperium ceases to exsist and that all that security ends.  Perhaps you
missed Mr Larsen's post so I'll repeat it here:
 <snip>
"Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin
would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at
the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or
potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far
more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium."

LEW

> >Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much
more
> >effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar
tonnage
> >of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem,
> >launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.
>
> Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.

Trin has an Imperial Navy base.  If they don't know where the SDBs are or
could be then they're as stupid as you think they are.  And if the IN is
that stupid then why is there an Imperium at all.

> >Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York
stays
> >in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

See above

All Trin is giving up is money which it seems to have an ample supply.  It
has the right to raise an armed force, the right to set it's own laws, right
to whatever government it chooses, even the right to make colonies of other
Imperial planets, pray tell what sovereignty is Trin giving up?

It seems to me you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, or are you a
decendent of 'Stonewall' Jackson that your so hot on succession.

Obviuosly this thread has reached the point of entrenchment where no one is
willing to concede their point and the arguments are becoming circler.

John Scarlett
Unionist



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:52:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:52:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
Message-ID: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>

1. We have a system which has developed independent of external
influence. 
2. It has 10s of billions of inhabitants. (Humans)
3. The region of space it inhabits is empty of other intelligent races
and none of those that do exist have explored this region yet.
4. For 400 years these inhabitants have explored and developed their
star system.
5. Recently government researchers have developed and successfully
tested a J1-drive.

What happens next, do you think?
How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?
How far do the initial explorations journey from home?
What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 02:26:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:26:36 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
Message-ID: <OF8EC9B64A.BC8F676D-ONCA256B56.0002E4D3@backbone.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark replied to Tod's reply to me:
>>>Best theory I ever heard was that they work for an "energy allocation".

[SNIP]

>>Earned income?!  Can it be traded?  Does everyone get the same
>>allocation? Can you work more and earn more?

[SNIP]

>A better question is what do they use to pay for goods and services
>when they visit a backwater planet with no connection to the "Starfleet
>Credit Union" network?  Batteries?

More like "What do you wish for?" and then replicate it (as long as it 
doesn't break the Prime Directive - but since when did that stop anyone? 
;-).

Presumably the higher-ranking officers have authority to "spend" more 
energy, which is why they are the negotiators. (It couldn't be just 
because they are the stars of the show, and we need to see them more each 
episode - naah, nothing like that.)

Anyway, the "high-ranking officer" theory also goes some way towards 
answering Tod's question too. You earn more food stamps - sorry, "energy 
stamps" - depending on what you do. Most people just don't bother to count 
them anymore (money is not an issue in society) since you can get 
virtually anything you want - either by replication or holodeck - with 
your energy allocation.

Apparently, the ST ubermenchen* [sp?] have cured greed and the lust for 
power.


Yeah, right.


[FOOTNOTE: *as mentioned in a hilarious article in an old _Challenge_ mag 
I recently re-read. It goes something like this:

Scenario 1: Overwhelming alien power meets TOS crew. Crew pointlessly and 
ineffectually reacts with violence.
- Result? "The aliens, realising that humans are even dumber than worms, 
leave them alone and go away".
Scenario 2: Overwhelming alien power meets TNG crew. Crew initiates a 
round-robin discussion group, attempting to analyse why the aliens have 
this desire for power, and how to cure them from this barbarism, etc etc. 
At first threaten, and then initiate, self-destruct sequence.
- Same result!]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:28:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
References: <F158vLDSsBmCwH8zUGO00016968@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c1ad34$8214f240$c7d7d63f@customer>

I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives


> Rupert and Tod
>
> The fact that I can't carry mace, stunguns or firearms absolutely
terrifies
> me. Australia's rate of violent crime has increased tenfold since we
> introduced the firearms ban -- just ask Charlton Heston and the NRL.
>
> Chuck and his mates however didn't feel it necessary to consult anybody in
> Australia to make that assertion -- they just *knew* it had to be true.
>
> *********************
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
>
> On 2 Feb 2002, at 19:25, Tod Glenn wrote:
> >It worries me that there are places where it is illegal to even have
mace.
> Over here it's even more illegal to have pepper sray than it is to have a
> handgun. You can get a license to own a pistol, but you may not carry it
on
> you
> for self-defence, and nor may you fire it anywhere excapt on a range.
> However
> you may not own pepper spray, mace, tasers or stunguns for any reason
> (though
> the police carry pepper spray).- --"Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 03:09:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 19:09:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203185336.00a98980@mail.peak.org>

Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:

>I've sat back for a while and listened to the debate. I've found it very 
>interesting.
>
>Personnally I've found the armament that some of you consider "run of the 
>mill" frankly horrifying. When I say I feel overarmoured with my 
>victorinox, I mean that I get nervous when Policemen look in my direction 
>for too long. I also get very nervous when I forget to unclip it befoer 
>teaching in schools, 'cos I'll just got to prison for that if it's 
>discovered. [please hold flames until you've read the next paragraph]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of emotional and sexual immaturity."
-- Sigmund Freud

Your first sentence in the last paragraph could hardly be more plain. To 
quote *you*, "Have you considered professional help?"

>What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people 
>living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose 
>used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's 
>not allowed to carry them any more?

It certainly applies to me.  I'm uncomfortable when I travel to locations 
that don't allow me to defend myself (on commercial airlines, across most 
state lines, and any time I travel outside the U.S., to name a few 
places.)  I have very little faith in my fellow man when it comes to self 
defense.  In the U.S., contrary to popular belief, the police are not 
required by law to protect the citizenry.  In fact, it isn't even in their 
job description.  Forget the "To Serve and Protect" crap you see on the 
doors of police cruisers.  Their job is to apprehend criminals and 
investigate crimes.  Despite this fact, many people in this country are 
ardent advocates of private firearm ownership because "the police will 
protect us."

Bloody "head-in-the-sand" peasants. :^(

Sorry. End of rant.


         - Mark C.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 04:07:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
Message-ID: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>

From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>

     "What happens next, do you think?"


Sir,

     Whew. you want the short list?

     "How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?"

     What sort of government is it?  Is there a single, unitary government 
system wide or a patchwork league?  How much of their interplanetary space 
assets are in NGO hands and how much are in gov't hands? (In other words, do 
civvies flit about the home system in their own craft or do only gov't 
operated packets do that?)

     "How far do the initial explorations journey from home?"

     What are the systems one parsec away like?  Nothing but planetoid 
belts?  Any T-norm or T-prime worlds?  How about fuel sources?

     "What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?"

     This question makes me believe that the gov't is system wide, very 
centralized, and doesn't want jump tech in civvies hands.
     Once again, that depends on how much of the interplanetary hardware is 
in civvies hands to begin with.  If all travel and commerce is carried by 
gov't packets, then all the settlements in the system are at the gov't's 
mercy.  If that's so, the independent enterprise may not have any place 
which to base out of.  They may have to stay out of the home system except 
for furtive visits.  Any of the goods and parts they need would either have 
to be bought on the black market or pirated.
     Look at Cherryh's "Downbelow Station", even though the setting is 
rather different.  The Sol Company Fleet is cut off from all normal channels 
for parts, supplies, even recruits.  They live by pirating (mostly) Union 
shipping and illicit trading.

     Let's posit another scenario.  Make the gov't less dark.  There's lots 
of interplanetary hardware in civvie hands, the authorities don't/won't mind 
private jump vessels, and the only real hurdle are any startup costs.  You 
could end up with most exploration and colonization being handled by 
chartered companies, like in Piper's future history.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 03:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:49:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1ad2e$e56d7020$2f7de40c@loki>

What sort of government?
	Let's go for a single benevolent oligarchy.

Intra-system transport?
	How 'bout 90% independent enterprise.

Systems within 1 parsec?
	Let's say we have 25% density and GT:FI frequency of types

Nature of government in relation to J-tech?
	Let's say they'd like to keep a handle on it until they are
comfortable that the universe is as sparsely inhabited as GT:FI would
seem.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:21:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203225925.02208ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:16:43 GMT, tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:
>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT 
practice.  It is significant to note that the entries on "Travel Zone" and 
"Red Zone" do NOT mention the IISS (despite the fact that the IISS and the 
IN can interdict worlds, prompting a red zone classification).

At least IMTU, travel zones are advisories published by the TAS, and have 
no official status* with the Imperium.  I'd suggest that as a matter of 
policy, the Imperium does not have any sort of official rating, class, or 
"favored world" status.  A world is either a member of the Imperium, or 
Interdicted (note that interdiction almost always carries a Red Zone rating 
from the TAS).

>something that can be handwaved away (ie the IISS Administrator ctually 
>visits the local TAS director and, over a convivial meal and drinks, 
>persuades him/her/it to impose an Amber Zone on the world in question).

I certainly could go for this scenario.  TAS ratings are, of course, going 
to be advised by - and perhaps even prompted by - data from the IISS.

* Also note that IMTU, the Travellers' Aid Society, while not an Imperial 
institution, has a lot of influence over star travel by making advisories 
(such as the travel zones), recommending procedures, and issuing 
certifications.  It 's the TAS that sets standards for starship crew; the 
Imperium makes no regulations about the fitness (or not) of civilian 
starship operators, the size of the crew, and required skills for critical 
positions.

As part of a program to ensure the safety of it's members, the TAS has 
minimum standards, both for ship's equipment and crew skills, in order for 
a vessel to certify for carriage of TAS members.  TAS travel vouchers 
cannot be redeemed unless the ship can show compliance with TAS 
certification requirements during the trip in question.  Unofficially (but 
quite effectively) other organizations such as shippers' groups and 
insurance companies, subscribe to the TAS standards.  A ship which can't 
manage to meet TAS certification requirements quickly finds itself unable 
to obtain the best insurance rates, and

The TAS data feed (which includes library data updates, travel advisories, 
and certification grant/revoke lists) is an important source of additional 
revenue for the Society.  Members may access this data freely, but other 
interested organizations must pay a subscription fee - which can be 
significant.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:36:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:36:39 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>

Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> writes regarding ship design:

>Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

Hmm. An amusing mix of TFT and Warpwar, that...

To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking for a 
system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG and MT (which 
is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such a system needs to be 
compatible with some higher detail version so that the gearheads ARE happy, 
and will do most of YOUR work for you by happily chunking out designs in high 
detail (since very few will turn down the extra details if someone else did 
the work...)

 As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying, I'm 
sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in that area. I'm 
one of those who will pass up the ship with hot design specs for the dumpy 
ship with a name, color text and *deckplans*. A starship is part of the 
roleplaying environment, and the more the design system can tell me about the 
ship ahead of time, the better. If a ship description will get me that little 
headstart of providing length and config along with the displacement, that's 
a whole set of aesthetic concerns I don't need to worry about.

(parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has largely lost 
me. I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE community seems interested 
beyond stats and background justification (some of it pretty weak, frankly). 
As a result, one of the best resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a 
useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

 Lastly, in defense of higher detail systems, if my Engineer character (and 
player!) can't produce technobabble without GM assistance, he shouldn't be a 
PC...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:11:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 00:11:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202021754.g12HsLj07467@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203234108.021eaec0@mail.qrc.com>

Hi,

I'm going to chime in on this debate.  I believe the solution to this 
problem is that the Imperium imposes certain minimum legal standards on all 
member worlds.  These standards are intended to be relatively 
non-intrusive, and cover only the situations absolutely necessary for 
Imperial membership.  Worlds are, of course, free to enact local laws in 
addition to or more restrictive than Imperial law, but cannot bypass or 
circumvent Imperial law.

These Imperial laws would include:
- Recognition of Imperial governmental authority, including the 
jurisdiction of Imperial nobles, officers, courts, and proclamations (both 
when Imperial jurisdiction trumps local authority, and when it does not);
- Basic commercial law, covering contracts with off-world businesses, or 
contracts for interstellar commerce, and recognition of Imperial currency 
as legal tender for all debts; and
- Basic criminal law, defining murder, piracy and theft, kidnapping, 
extortion and fraud.

Thus, if a world which had a murder law like the British one quoted joined 
the Imperium, the world would be required to enforce both it's own 
definition and the Imperial one.  The Imperial murder law probably defines 
the victim as any sophont, and likely has a shorter time frame than the 
British example quoted.  On a world with such a law, a murder could be 
tried under either (or both) laws, depending on applicability.  For example 
a Vargr victim would not qualify under the British version of the law (and 
thus would be tried under the Imperial definition), while a slow-acting 
poison that took 6 months to kill the victim may not be murder under the 
Imperial law (but could be tried using the British definition).

IMTU, worlds are responsible for investigating, prosecuting, and punishing 
crimes that occur within their jurisdiction.  This includes both Imperial 
crimes and crimes against the world's own laws.  In addition, criminals who 
commit an Imperial crime within a world's jurisdiction can be extradited 
from Imperial jurisdiction or from other worlds.  Criminals who commit acts 
that are crimes under non-Imperial "local" laws (but which have not also 
committed Imperial crimes) cannot be extradited*.

Imperial officials (generally the Nobility and the Imperial Navy) are 
responsible for investigating, prosecuting, and punishing Imperial crimes 
that occur within Imperial jurisdiction (generally, on starports, Imperial 
facilities, and in space).  Criminals who are apprehended by Imperial 
authorities (but who did not actually commit a crime in Imperial 
jurisdiction) are normally returned to the world where the crime was 
committed for trial.

* One exception to this being bounty hunters.  Worlds may offer bounties 
for the return of wanted criminals or suspects.  It is legal for a bounty 
hunter to apprehend and return the criminal to the world they are wanted 
on, provided they break no Imperial or local laws in doing so.  Positive 
identification of the criminal and the bounty warrant is required (and may 
need to be presented to the satisfaction of Imperial authorities to avoid a 
kidnapping charge).

I believe this set of definitions covers the situations being discussed in 
the current murder thread fairly effectively, without doing a lot of damage 
to the principle that the Imperium rules the space between the worlds, but 
generally keeps a "hands-off" approach to worlds themselves.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 04:21:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:21:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Random T5 Musings: CharGen
Message-ID: <000e01c1ad33$7d3a3ab0$2f7de40c@loki>

T5 Character Generation

Traveller was marked by its character generation system. The ability to
have a character with experience at the start of play was fundamental to
the game. Since those early days we have had the random generation
systems and the player selection systems. I think T5 needs to have both
tied inextricably interwoven. If I roll dice to create my character or
build one by choices or some combination of the two, I should arrive at
similar outcomes. 

Building a character could start with some selections, involve some dice
rolls and then end up with some more selections. Building a character
could begin with some dice rolls, then involve some selections and then
back to the dice again. Building a character could be dice all the way
through. Building a character could be a series of selections. All of
these would come from the same chapter, the same tables, the same text.
One would not be a variant on the standard but all are there by design.

Just a thought.




---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:27:32 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <28.219ab208.298f75c4@aol.com>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> asks me:

>Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
>a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
>you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

My preference is for something pioneered by High Guard but most closely 
approached by MT and FF&S1 (though in different ways): Initial text on the 
"big picture", like what you need to make it a starship vs a spacecraft, 
weapon technology/assumptions & descriptions, typical armor/weapon/sensor 
levels for civilian vs paramil vs military, that sort of thing. Any tables 
are purely explanatory, or are knowledge you need for design work, but not 
actually part of the design process (like the max jump per TL, frex).
 This is followed by the clump of tables as seen in HG and MT: this is the 
raw stuff of design work, BUT it is annotated thoroughly, so that you don't 
need to go back to the starting text to figure out how or why to use a 
particular table. As such, after your third design, you can open to the first 
tables page and work through JUST the tables to design a ship.

 This is the ideal, regardless of complexity level.  Mr Thomas (to use our 
other conversant as a guinea pig) would probably love to have ship design 
boil down to a single page table, from which he pulls components to reach his 
desired tonnage. At the Book 2 level, it's pretty doable, frankly (and if you 
have an early edition like I do, it really *necessary* to compile that table 
so you don't dig through text for well-hidden formulas EVERY TIME).  High 
Guard and MT are very good expressions of my ideal for their levels of 
complexity, and the highest level (we've seen) is best represented by FF&S1 
(which uses the scavenger hunt format "this what you need; go <here> and get 
it, then come back" very well, with each of the subsections very well 
explained internally). FF&S2 failed primarily because it nested the scavenger 
hunt format two levels deep by failing to annotate the tables or shift them 
into the text.

 QSDS as presented in v1.5 is acceptable to me at the largest layout level 
mostly because it is a fairly *short* system to use. Where it fails is at the 
level of tables and text, a problem that could be quickly solved by a decent 
page-layout attack, rendering unruly tables down to one page or less each, 
and visible (since most of us don't have duplex printing) at the same time as 
the text that explains the table. Heck, reducing the font size to 
print-prefered sizes (instead of the screen-prefered size it is now) would 
solve most of the problems all by itself.
 The goal is to have the table and all of its immediate explanations visible 
at the same time (preferably on the same page), so that there is *maybe* one 
other page reference you need at the same time.

 Picture the following scenario: you are trying to reconcile your Manuever 
drive desires with your powerplant requirements and volume constraints. 
Volume is being taken care of by your worksheet (ie. not in the book), but 
you are flipping between the Drive and Power pages constantly. If each of 
those is one page (or ALL one page, like HG) then you've no problem, but if 
the tables you need in both sections are spread out over three pages each, 
with column headers not carried over to each page, you WILL give yourself a 
headache, and quickly. The same design system has been rendered MUCH harder 
to use simply due to layout.

 That help?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:36:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:36:55 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202040536.g145aeI17460@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/03/02 at 11:36 PM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> writes regarding ship
>design:

>>Pre-Assembled pieces. In my own attempts, ala Legos. 
>>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for. 

>Hmm. An amusing mix of TFT and Warpwar, that...

>To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking
>for a  system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG
>and MT (which  is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such
>a system needs to be  compatible with some higher detail version so
>that the gearheads ARE happy,  and will do most of YOUR work for you
>by happily chunking out designs in high  detail (since very few will
>turn down the extra details if someone else did  the work...)

> As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying,
>I'm  sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in
>that area. I'm  one of those who will pass up the ship with hot
>design specs for the dumpy  ship with a name, color text and
>*deckplans*. A starship is part of the  roleplaying environment, and
>the more the design system can tell me about the  ship ahead of time,
>the better. If a ship description will get me that little  headstart
>of providing length and config along with the displacement, that's  a
>whole set of aesthetic concerns I don't need to worry about.

I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
*do* affect roleplaying in my games.

>(parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has
>largely lost  me. 

>I LOVE FF&S1, 

Same here!  FFS2 just isn't as good as FFS1. Yes, FFS1 needed/needs
work, but there's all that alter tech in there that I want.

>but very few of the online TNE
>community seems interested  beyond stats and background justification
>(some of it pretty weak, frankly).  As a result, one of the best
>resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a  useability
>wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

I tend to agree, but then, my interest in TNE isn't really the GDW
setting.

> Lastly, in defense of higher detail systems, if my Engineer
>character (and  player!) can't produce technobabble without GM
>assistance, he shouldn't be a  PC...

LOL! <g>

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 05:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 00:46:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204004241.020a9ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:15:02, Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net> asked:
>I noticed that the Size column was missing

Oops, sorry!

>I began to wonder what the criteria was for determining size.

Size was determined in the T4 combat rules as:

Size  Displacement
5     less than 1 dton
6     1-9 dtons
7     10-99 dtons
8     100-999 dtons
9     1000-9999 dtons

>I'm putting together a small cross-platform application

I'll be interested in taking a look at it when it's done.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:32:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020203225925.02208ec0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEGJDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

>> I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT
practice.

*** There needs to be SOME way for the Imperial Government to apply travel
designations to certain areas.  I think the Scout Service would reccommend
Amber Zones and I doubt that TAS would ignore the suggestion without good
reason.  It is like real life.  The U.S. Government issues a advistories
about certain areas.  The Scouts would too.


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:17:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <200202040717.XAA27335@molly.iii.com>

"John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
>> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
>> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>
>You seem to think that Trin exsist in a vacuum (no pun inteneded).  The
>reason Trin is so safe is because the Imperium is so strong on it's
>frontier.

Actually, it's because there's no significant threats within 20 pc.  It would
be trivial to send a fleet past the imperial lines, assuming you really had
a reason to go that far.

>"Without the "security in numbers" enviroment of the Imperium, Trin
>would live in a universe of pocket empires.  Each high-pop world would at
>the center of their own "empire-ette" and would have enemies, both real or
>potential, on all sides.  Defense spending in that situation would be far
>more than the pittance remitted to the Third Imperium."

Well, 'security in numbers' is actually less relevant than the fact that
the 3I will intervene to protect Trin from Mora, and vice versa.  Most 
of Trin's likely enemies are other members of the 3I.
>>
>> Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.
>
>Trin has an Imperial Navy base.  If they don't know where the SDBs are or
>could be then they're as stupid as you think they are.  And if the IN is
>that stupid then why is there an Imperium at all.

There's a limited number of useful targets in a system (usually one), so 
if the SDBs are protecting that target, there's no way to hit and run.

Aside from this, a typical SDB can move 20+ AU in a week.  Information 
about the location of fleets before jumping out is totally useless.

>All Trin is giving up is money which it seems to have an ample supply.  It
>has the right to raise an armed force, the right to set it's own laws, right
>to whatever government it chooses, even the right to make colonies of other
>Imperial planets, pray tell what sovereignty is Trin giving up?

That's part of the original question: just what powers does the Imperium
reserve for itself?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:19:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:19:13 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEFBDPAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Michael Barry
Sent: Monday, 4 February 2002 7:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium


Look at it a different way: why does California remain part of the United
States? Or Manhattan? Why does Sydney or Bali or Istanbul remain part of
their respective nations?

Snip

Well in the case of an Australia state there has to be a nationwide
referrendum (not limited to the state in question) two thirds of the states
have to agree by I believe a two thirds majority.

As a matter of interest Western Australia did pass a secession referendum
which was promptly ignored by the Commonwealth. (In WA there used to be a
saying that Commonwealth meant New South Wales and Victoria got all the
wealth while Western Australia did all the work,)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 07:25:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:25:11 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XQyl-0003BK-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1ad4d$14b75210$6401a8c0@goca>

I remember Perry Rhodan, and at one time had the entire translated
amount of the series.  Now all I have left is #1 and #2.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:04
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging

"Stephan Aspridis" <Anubis.5@web.de>
 
> > Which is why IMHO, both the Longevity and the Extended Lifespan
> > advantages should be reduced from 5 points each to 1 point each, and
> > Unaging should cost no more than maybe 2 points. Advantages that
> > offer no real advantage in any sort of normal game should not have
> > anything more than a nominal cost.
> >
> Which is probably the reason why Unaging was reduced from 40 to 15
> points. I can understand why SJG didn't want to make it even cheaper -
> it is, after all - a really "sexy" advantage to have *plays highlander
> tune* Of course you'll want to get some kind of regeneration and
> immunities too, less you wont have too much fun with it ;-)

That's one of my major problems with GURPS.  Charging that 
many points for an Advantage that is cool that makes the character 
more powerful or more versatile is completely unfair.
 
> IMO all sorts of treatments, gadgets etc. that even remotely offer
> something like immortaility will get the players to go a _very_ long
> way to achieve them. What better way for a GM to motivate them?

I agree that players love this sort of thing, but why does charging 
more points better motivate PCs?  I'd say a far better answer is to 
simply make the advantage not available during character 
generation and then give out hints on how it might be obtained.
 
> Currently, I think about letting them hunt an ancient artifact modeled
> after the "Perry Rhodan" (for all non-Germans, it's a quite popular SF
> series over here) Cellular Activator. 

Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here. 
I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age 
14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
Does anyone else remember these books.

Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> It's an egg-shaped metallic
> device, about the size of a pigeon's egg, worn around the neck which
> offers (in GURPS Terms): Unaging, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to
> Disease and (I am not sure yet) either Very Rapid Healing or Slow
> Regeneration (probably even both).
> 
> If you look et these advantages in game terms, it's not a very big
> deal: They probably never will "use" unaging, nearly everyone should
> at least be disease-resistant anyway at TL12 and most medkits offer
> something like very rapid healing. The only big deal is immunity to
> poison and maybe slow regeneration and that is balanced by the fact
> that anyone wearing such a thing better takes good care of it, because
> after 62 hours without it, you're _dead_.

Cool, although I'm not certain the 62 hour restriction is necessary. 
 
> But I'll bet, given the chance they'll do anything to obtain one.

Most definitely, that sound like a *really* fun campaign.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 08:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:21:41 -0800
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> On 3 Feb 2002, at 10:03, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > Back in the 1970s the first hundred or so were translated over here.
> > I loved them all, much fun.  The 2nd SF con I ever went to (at age
> > 14) was what was likely the only Perry Rhodan con held in the US.
> > Does anyone else remember these books.
> > 
> > Does anyone else in the US remember these books?
> 
> Don't know about the US, but over here there's a large pile of 'em in
> my favourite secondhand book store. I grabbed one the other day and
> the first thing I noticed was how atrocious the style was. Whether
> that was the foult of the original authors or the translator I do not
> know. 

Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released 
at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a 
young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly 
disappointed.  OTOH, in the back of the US edition there were 
often serialized versions of some extremely fascinating and cool 
old SF from the 30s and 40s.  I love stuff like that, I've even read 
John Campbell's Arcott, Morey, and Wade  (sp) books.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:15:02 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <200202040037.QAA02465@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1ad5c$87c64900$3874893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>

> >Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of
having the
> >Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long*
way
> >from Trin.
>
> Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier
worlds.
> Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have
neither
> the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>
> >Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York
stays
> >in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
>
> But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
> out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
> but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

If an analogy is made with the USA, California is subsidising the
defence[1] of Vietnam, South Korea, Afghanistan, etc, so that the battles
aren't fought on California. While Trin/California are probably capable of
defending themselves adequately as independants, it is equally true that
wars fought at home tend to deter investors. By banding together with the
greater powers, they have the means to ensure that the wars are fought
elsewhere, protecting the local economy.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



[1] No debates on the 'real' motives of the US actions here please.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:21:53 +1300
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5F1791.19676.2844E8@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 0:21, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released 
> at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a 
> young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly 
> disappointed.

Actually I'm fairly sure if I'd read them at that age I'd have liked them, too. 
Afterall I was a great fan of E. E. "Doc" Smith's Skylark and Lensman series.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:15:38 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <15f.8362f05.298f69d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C5F161A.4624.228C51@localhost>

On 3 Feb 2002, at 23:36, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> (parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the TNE crowd has largely lost me.
> I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE community seems interested beyond
> stats and background justification (some of it pretty weak, frankly). As a
> result, one of the best resources for TNE designs, the BARD Pages, are a
> useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)

That's probably because deckplans and colour descriptions are the most brain 
intensive parts of designing a ship. One of the reasons I find HG (and many MT) 
designs of little use is that they too tend to lack these things, and you can 
infer even less from the stats than you can from a FFS1 (or 2) design.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 10:45:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 02:45:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <F186udCAJ6tD6CoWB7V0000bdf0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020204104538.42618.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>

'Course, j-drive could always be an open secret in that system, sorta
like the alien technology the U.S. got from that there crash site in
Roswell, NM, awhile back ...



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 11:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:14:58 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <20020204104538.42618.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHMELMCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> 'Course, j-drive could always be an open secret in that system, sorta
> like the alien technology the U.S. got from that there crash site in
> Roswell, NM, awhile back ...
>
You mean that unshielded gravomagnetic crap that fries every frickin'
transistor even remotely in range? ;-))

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 11:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:12:29 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: AW: [TML] aging
In-Reply-To: <E16XeMo-0007Qc-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGELMCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Likely both, after all, these books were being written and released
> at a rate of 1 a week in Germany.  I *loved* them when I was a
> young teen, but I fear looking back at them I'd be vastly
> disappointed.  OTOH, in the back of the US edition there were
> often serialized versions of some extremely fascinating and cool
> old SF from the 30s and 40s.  I love stuff like that, I've even read
> John Campbell's Arcott, Morey, and Wade  (sp) books.
>
I don't think that you would be disappointed by the newer ones. Granted,
they are released at a rate of one per week (even if written by several
authors) but they have a really high rating when it comes to things like
characterization of protagonists and pseudo-scientific coherence and
plausibility. I wouldn't place them en par with David Weber or Peter F.
Hamilton, but quite close - and that's really not bad for a SF "pulp
magazine" with a current count of 2110 :-))

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb  3 14:41:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:41:17 -0000
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>

Timothy Little wrote:
> In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
> building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
> Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
> would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
> the standard universe.
> 
> I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
> if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
> could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
> the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
> an import utility from Galactic data files.

I'm doing exactly that.  I looked at MySQL  but  it  doesn't  yet
have a procedural language (so no triggers or stored procedures).
Instead I'm developing on Interbase, which is open source  as  of
version 6, and later hope to have ports  to  Oracle  and  MS  SQL
Server.  There is an early screenshot plus SQL scripts to  create
the database on my website but  to  be  honest  it'll  be  months
before I have anything releaseable for the main  program  itself.
I'm currently building import/export  filters  for  Galactic  SEC
files, Galactic SAR files, World Builder and World Builder Deluxe
WBS files (v1.0.0 and v1.1.0), Heaven & Earth HES files,  TrTools
UWP files, and maybe some others (hopefully XML).

So if you want the stucture of an empty database you can populate
with your own data see my site,  but  if  you  want  a  populated
database you'll need to wait a  little  longer  (or  try  an  XML
alternative).

Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/tu.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 12:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:20:11 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Ararchy discussion
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005801c1ad76$631744a0$d8408690@computer>

> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Erm, that's not how I read it. Zapata, Pancho Villa and Venustiano
> Carranza (commander of the Constitutional Army) entered Mexico City in
> 1914, following the assasination of Fransisco Madero. Fighting broke out
> and the anarcho-syndicalists of the Casa del Obrero Mundial joined
> Carranza in 1916. Zapata was driven back into the province of Morelos and
> finally betrayed and killed in 1919. When the fighting originally broke
> out Mexico certainly didn't have a central government.

Carranza's mob became the state.  Zapata and Villa let them.  OK, they may
not have had much choice, but still...  Part of their problem, of course,
was that peasant armies, like those they were leading, have always been
reluctant to go too far from home, or stay away from home for too long.

Letting Carranza's forces consolidate was the fatal mistake.  To have
prevented it, it would have been necessary to have established a
revolutionary state in their place, that would have carried out land reforms
and generally extended all the good revolutionary stuff throughout Mexico.
But that is just the good old Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat, which
is anathema to anarchists.

> As to naivete and childeshness: you wouldn't be referring to our erstwhile
> neighbours the Greens would you? ;)

No, but now you mention them...  : )

I was actually thinking about outfits like the Black Blocs, not to mention
the lifestyle "anarchists", and, well, it was pretty much a generalised
slam.

All this is OT, so I will end my participation in this thread at this point.

Anyway, an OBTRAV:  During the period of the Mexican Revolution we were
raving about above, Mexico had a recognised government (Carranza).  In
addition, there were more or less independent (technically less, actually
more...) rulers in the north (Villa) and south (Zapata).  From the "outside"
Mexico was technically united, but in practice it was balkanised.

This can happen in Traveller.  There can be recognised planetary governments
that do not actually control their whole worlds/systems.  The result can be
merc tickets, or just nasty surprises...

And another good one:  Pancho Villa, of course, lead a raid across the US
border, provoking a US counter-invasion.  This, in turn, sparked a
nationalist backlash in Mexico, which strengthened Villa and Zapata's
forces....  Pulling this kind of stunt in the Third Imperium might not be a
good idea.  Then again...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com









From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 12:45:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:45:39 +0200
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204132259.00c091a0@ee.tut.fi>

LKW wrote:

 > Is that a knife used by butterflies or a knife for defense from
 > butterflies?

	I just went through my knife collection, and noticed that all my
	balisong knifes (split-grip Filipino folder) made by "Benchmade"
	have the butterfly logo stamped on the ricasso. Even the
	"Benchmade" company name is written so that the letter "m" in
	the middle is a butterfly.

	IIRC, similar name-oddity exists in French. When self-loading
	pistols become available to consumers, the "Browning" company
	was very prominent. Therefore the name "browning" become a
	synonym for self-loading pistol.

Mark C. wrote:

 > Seriously, I carry 4-5 blades on my person at any given time
 > of the day.

	I have carried a plain-edge "SpyderCo Endura" folder with me
	for a few years as a general use bladed tool, and I really feel
	naked without it. Other bladed tools (puukko, leuku, kassara,
	vesuri, kirves, hukari) are too large to be carried around in
	public areas without notice.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 13:40:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:40:33 +1000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a701c1ad81$bf6a84a0$d8408690@computer>

> From: "Robert A. Uhl"
> > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> one is not properly equipped.

Well, I moved from Australia to Papua New Guinea (and back again, but that's
another story).  That's as good a change from higher to lower law levels as
you could want.

I don't own a gun in Australia.  I didn't own one in PNG.  I wasn't
stressed.

Of course, technically the gun laws in PNG are as tight as they are in
Australia.  It's just the enforcement that's non-existent in most of the
country.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 13:29:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:29:51 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Hypothetical 1
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c1ad81$beb1e300$d8408690@computer>

> From: "n2sami"
> What happens next, do you think?
> How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?
> How far do the initial explorations journey from home?
> What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?

All of this depends on economics.  Are there any bucks in space exploration?
If you are doing "pure science", that is, your explorations aren't expected
to make an immediate profit, interstellar exploration will be relatively
sporadic, and directed towards "interesting" places, some of which might be
quite a fair way away.

I would imagine that "initial explorations" would tend to be relatively
short ranged "there and back again" missions, limited mostly, I suspect by
what can be achieved on a single load of fuel.

To be honest, I suspect that the "realistic" case would have no relationship
at all to the space opera model used in Traveller.  That's not a problem -
the genre just has its conventions.  One of these is that Earth-like worlds
can be relatively easily colonised.

Government monopolies/independent enterprise?  Well, that depends on what
your society is like.  The Space and Scientific Workers' Collective would
probably follow the "pure science" model, while GreedyCorp would look for
nearby rocks to stripmine.

In short, more information, please.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 14:56:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:56:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <00a701c1ad81$bf6a84a0$d8408690@computer>
References: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204095547.00a85888@mail.charter.net>

This has gone fare enough off topic that I replied to the chat list.
IMO, that's the best place to continue this thread.

At 11:40 PM 2/4/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl"
> > > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> > Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> > needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> > one is not properly equipped.
>
>Well, I moved from Australia to Papua New Guinea (and back again, but that's
>another story).  That's as good a change from higher to lower law levels as
>you could want.
>
>I don't own a gun in Australia.  I didn't own one in PNG.  I wasn't
>stressed.
>
>Of course, technically the gun laws in PNG are as tight as they are in
>Australia.  It's just the enforcement that's non-existent in most of the
>country.
>
>Alan Bradley
>abradley1@bigpond.com

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:21:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen
Message-ID: <20020204152154.75861.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> Subject: Random T5 Musings: CharGen
> 
> T5 Character Generation
> 
...SNIP...
> Building a character could
> be dice all the way
> through. Building a character could be a series of
> selections. All of
> these would come from the same chapter, the same
> tables, the same text.
> One would not be a variant on the standard but all
> are there by design.

With a little bit of GM interference and some "House
Rules" this is easily accomplished with the CT basic
Character Generation Rules.  I will often use the 12
(or sometimes 15) dice roll to generate stats.  I
don't necessarily roll 2D6 for each stat.  Roll all
the dice at once and pair dice or just use that number
of "stat points".

As to the skills and terms, I think that is where the
GM interference might come in handy.  Players will
tend to take the better course for their characters
("Yeah, he got commission and promotion in his first
Navy term even though he had SOC 6").  The GM will
need to police the abuse of simple selections.  I can
see some use for a point base here and it would
definitely be attractive to players used to a point
based system.  As to skills, my first GM let us pick
from the list rather than roll for a skill.  I liked
that a lot as a beginner player, I wanted to play what
I wanted to play.  Now that I am older and more
experienced, I want to see who the character is and
build the back story then play who the character is.

Summary:  I agree with you and I don't think there is
much work involved to fit the two together.  Although
the Advanced Generation may be a different story.


Paul


__________________________________________________
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Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:42:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204095547.00a85888@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B883EBD1.233FB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/4/02 6:56 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> This has gone fare enough off topic that I replied to the chat list.
> IMO, that's the best place to continue this thread.
> 

Agreed. I was about to suggest the same thing.  A discussion about attitudes
on weapons in the Imperium is certainly appropriate on the TML.  When
current terran politics enters the discussion, it needs to go to tml-chat.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:52:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B883EE2B.23400%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

In case anyone missed it, I am trying to build a directory of ongoing
Traveller PBeMs at http://www.travellercentral.com.  If you have a Traveller
PBeM, and want to list it, send me you info.

I will also host any Traveller PBeMs (within reason) on the travellercentral
majordomo server.  Again, email for info.


Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:37:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:37:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TNE BARD Pages (was Re: [TML] Re: T5)
Message-ID: <20020204153751.7879.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: T5
> 
> On 3 Feb 2002, at 23:36, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > (parenthetically, this is one of the reasons the
> TNE crowd has largely lost me.
> > I LOVE FF&S1, but very few of the online TNE
> community seems interested beyond
> > stats and background justification (some of it
> pretty weak, frankly). As a
> > result, one of the best resources for TNE designs,
> the BARD Pages, are a
> > useability wasteland as far as I'm concerned.)
> 
> That's probably because deckplans and colour
> descriptions are the most brain 
> intensive parts of designing a ship. One of the

This is partly true.  Although I can't speak to BARD
since I left it in 1996, I know that when we started
it "years and years" ago, I intended to do deck plans
with the ships I designed (and some for the ships
others designed).  I also intended to do world maps
for all the worlds we detailed.  The problem with both
is that they are, indeed, brain intensive, but they
are also time intensive.  I would expect based on some
recent conversations that Lewis could easily verify
the same.

Had I full time to work on this, I would have done
many more world maps and deck plans.  Maybe as I look
around I'll find some useful program to do the plans
in and be able to format them in a useable format.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:39:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:39:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B883EB22.233F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/3/02 2:04 PM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between people
> living in different law levels. Would someone from a low law level whose used
> to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not
> allowed to carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than
> someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held a real gun that
> works I'm not sure, I think they might be comparable. I'd not really thought
> about the psychological/sociological effects of law levels and what it might
> do to people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...
> 
> Thoughts anyone?
> ---
> Shan Andy

Yes, mindset is definitely different IMTU, much as it vary's right here.
Most of my players have the 'Regina' mindset.  I run the highport there as a
rough and exiting town, like Singapore in the 1930.  Some of my players are
from more 'civilized' worlds, and are shocked when they encounter this
mindset.

Your comments really got me thinking as I was watching "Black Hawk Down".
The scenes from within Mogadishu, where everyone has an AK made me think I
would certainly feel naked without one, were I there.

Just judging from this list, it would appear that how someone feels about
being armed will probably be more related to culture than law level.  There
will be some worlds that have high law level where people will arm
themselves regardless of the law (PNG) and some where the idea is
unthinkable.  This could be also true of low law level worlds.  In my own
state of Oregon it's quite legal to go about armed (as long as it is
concealed, we just don't want to see it) but attitudes vary between large
cities and rural areas.  And while one can carry a concealed handgun,
carrying a concealed knife (except small blades) is suspect. In other
countries, having a large 'chopper' on one's belt is absolutely normal. In
others, toting an AK-47 is typical behavior.

The likelihood of a uniform culture within the Imperium is small, IMHO, and
hence attitudes about weapons, like everything else, will vary from world to
world.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:23:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:23:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen
In-Reply-To: <20020204152154.75861.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1ad8f$f425a180$2f7de40c@loki>

Hello Paul.

I kept my original post purposely vague but let me expand a bit now. I
don't propose that T5 ought to keep CharGen from CT. No basic CharGen
and advanced CharGen. I proposed what I did as the STARTING point. That
aspect of Traveller, as it has existed, that should be kept. It may be
that CT basic CharGen is the starting point but I would caution those
who care, not to start there, but to start from some first principle of
CharGen. My recommendation for that first principle is what my email
beginning this thread was meant to be.

Same goal, different focus. Now all that behind us let's examine your
comments.

Would it be that easy to modify CT basic CharGen into a random or
deliberate or combination activity? You mention a referee, but referees
always modify and tweak that isn't quite the same as rules someone on
temporary assignment in a hole on the Antarctican continent without a
phone or a companion could use to generate 1001 player characters. With
a random base system he could do that in 10ms after writing a computer
program to generate them. Also, he could do it in 10 minutes (per
character) with a program like those designed to create GURPS Traveller
characters. I don't want the power to live with the referee (he is more
powerful than evolution already) but for CharGen I want it to be with
the player (who will still have to live inside the framework the referee
will lay down.)


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 15:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:54:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Call for PBeM players
Message-ID: <B883EEC5.23401%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

I have been hosting a Traveller PBeM for another GM, and am planning on
trying my hand at running one myself.  I currently have one player signed
up, and have room for 7 more.  If you are interested in getting in to a Trav
PBeM, you can find more info at http://www.travllercentral.com.  Follow the
link to PBeM (obviously).

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:29:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #120
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112536.01d47e18@mail.qrc.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:46:13, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>Mind you even with only one bucket it should be doable inside a month, and 
>the first batch would be drinkable when the last batch was bottled.

Yes; it's quite do-able.  I'd probably do one lager (since I do have a 
carboy and a lagering cooler) and three ales.  The lager should be ready to 
bottle around the same time as the last of the ales is drinkable (and the 
first of them is getting really good).

>Lots of bottles, though.

Yeah; I'd be worried about how to ship them at reasonable cost.  Cases of 
beer are heavy, and I doubt I could take them with me on the airplane.

>I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets of 
>beer from here to the US would be. :)

Yes.  I'm thinking that Cornelius kegs would be a good way of handling 
it.  Unfortunately, they're expensive and I don't have the kegs or tap system.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:20:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:20:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204111130.01c2dd30@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:37:53, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" wrote:
>Trin threatens not to pay its share of the costs (claiming that they need 
>the money to offset the damage the depot is going to do to its economy) 
>unless it is located in its subsector. The question is who wins this 
>argument [...] (IMHO, it will be Trin in this case, either the depot's 
>location will be changed or Trin will not have to pay)

IMHO (and assuming that the Sector Duke is not an idiot) both and neither 
win.  A compromise is worked out that isn't ideal for either side, but 
allows both to save face and claim political victory.  Perhaps something to 
the effect that Trin will be guaranteed the receipt of Naval construction 
contracts of a certain magnitude over the next few decades, in exchange for 
dropping the economic hardship argument.  This allows Trin to "win" (since 
they can claim that the construction contracts offset the economic loss 
from the Depot location and tax increase), at the same time the Imperium 
"wins" (since they get Trin's government to agree to pay the tax).

Yes, it's less efficient to build ships on Trin and send them over to the 
Depot, but that's a small cost to pay (particularly when distributed around 
the whole of the Spinward Marches).  It could also be argued that this 
preserves important reserve shipbuilding capacity and expertise in Trin.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 16:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:40:32 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 3: History (part B - long)
Message-ID: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>

So far, so lack of response :-(



HISTORY OF VINCENNES - CONTINUED


Rise and Fall:  Vincennes in the Civil War Era 589 - 696

The bad feeling between Vincennes and the Imperial government
gradually faded into the background as tensions with the Zhodani grew
along the frontier.  Vincennes' new shipbuilding industry proved
invaluable in strengthening the Imperial Navy to resist the Outworld
Coalition, and much of Admiral Plankwell's victorious fleet in the
(1st) Frontier War was manufactured in Vincennes orbit.  

With the outbreak of the Civil War, however, the ambitious young
Emperor of Vincennes Armand II saw an opportunity to re-establish his
world's power and "reverse the humiliation of 506".  With most of the
Imperial fleets withdrawn to the Core to fight for the Imperial
throne, there was nothing to stop Armand's bid for glory.  In 609, he
declared the formation of the Vincennes Zone of Protection, a region
five parsecs in radius.  These worlds could now rely on the Vincennes
planetary navy for protection against "rampaging Vargr and Zhodani" in
the absence of the Imperial Navy.  (It was no coincidence that the
Zone covered the same area as the Second Imperium-era Kingdom of
Paven).

Some worlds were willing to accept this "protection" voluntarily;  but
when Achemadon/Deneb (1224) and Kauai/Deneb (1520) resisted Armand
ordered them bombarded from orbit.  That quickly brought the
dissenters into line;  those planets which had fleets of their own
(none of them as large or capable as that of Vincennes) saw them
integrated into the Vincennes navy.  Vincennien garrisons were imposed
on the worlds in the Zone, paid for by "contributions" levied on each
planet.  The Imperial authorities protested these developments but
could do nothing to prevent them: any Imperial commander who amassed a
force large enough to challenge the Vincennes navy saw greater profit
in heading off through Corridor towards Capital than in squabbling
over this backwater.  

When the Second Frontier War broke out, Armand initially stayed
neutral, contenting himself with informing the Imperial High Command
that since his forces were protecting their rear area, they could
concentrate all their ships on fighting the Zhodani.  However, when
the young Admiral Alkhalikoi took over command and started winning
significant victories, Armand saw the political benefit in sending a
detachment of his navy to serve under her as an "allied fleet"
(Arbellatra herself consistently referred to it as the "Vincennes
colonial squadron", however).  Once Arbellatra had secured a
negotiated peace with the Zhodani, Armand was one of the advisors who
counselled her to make an attempt for the Imperial throne.  In return
for his support, he asked for formal recognition of the Empire of
Vincennes as an independent ally of the Imperium.  Arbellatra told him
that she agreed to this, and so the Vincennes Expeditionary Force
accompanied her to Capital while the rest of Armand's navy stayed to
strengthen its grip on the Zone.  

Arbellatra won the Civil War, although the Vincennes portion of her
fleet never returned to the Domain of Deneb (it was incorporated
directly into the Imperial Navy;  a fleet stationed in the Ilelish
sector currently carries its battle honours).  However, when a courier
brought the news to Armand in 623, Arbellatra deferred recognition of
his independence on the grounds that as Regent (in the absence of an
Emperor), she did not have the authority to cede control of any
Imperial territory. 

Over the next decade, Arbellatra strengthened Imperial control
throughout the sector (including establishing the first x-boat links),
and re-based strong Imperial fleets all around the border of the Zone.
In 634, having finally accepted the title of Empress, she felt secure
enough to pay her first ceremonial visit as monarch to the Domain of
Deneb (to show the flag, overawe opponents, reward supporters, deter
the Zhodani, and visit her homeworld again).  The tremendous Imperial
fleet gathered to escort her made a stately progress around the
Domain, and finally entered orbit around Vincennes in 636.  Armand,
meanwhile, had contracted a debilitating and incurable disease that
left him almost helpless.  However, despite his weakness he confronted
Arbellatra during a private audience and challenged her to make good
on her word.  She simply smiled and replied "I have", then handed him
a portable datareader.  On it, he saw the text of his world's original
Treaty of Membership in the Imperium: like many such treaties, it did
indeed state that "the Empire of Vincennes shall enjoy independence
and autonomy within the Third Imperium, as defined in the Imperial
Constitution and as guaranteed by the Emperor."  Looking at her
timepiece, she added "You have always enjoyed independence within the
Imperium -- as should your neighbouring worlds.  Now, if you will
excuse me, I'm expecting a series of important despatches from a fleet
courier."  With that she left -- and Armand was soon confronted by the
news that overwhelming Imperial forces had jumped into every system in
the Vincennes Zone.

As they arrived in each system, the Imperial ships broadcast an
announcement that they were restoring order in the name of the Empress
-- and added that they "thanked the colonial navy of Vincennes for its
assistance in preserving the peace during the recent upheavals -- a
service that happily is no longer required."  In most cases the
Vincennien commanders took the hint and either jumped out straight
away, or surrendered their ships.  Only in Sarden/Deneb (1424) did the
local Vincennien fleet resist.  It was almost completely destroyed,
although at a high cost in Imperial lives and ships.  The survivors
were condemned for treason against the Imperium, although by the
Empress' intervention their sentence was commuted from death to exile.
The "Battle of Sarden" has since gone down in Vincennien popular
history as a glorious fight against impossible odds, fought for the
honour of the flag -- the truth was less romantic, involving certain
unwholesome activities by the local commander's staff that he was
afraid would come to light once Imperial control over the system was
re-established. 

With the Zone dissolved (although in fact the Empress never formally
admitted that it had ever existed -- and most Imperial histories of
the period omit any mention of it) Arbellatra quickly strengthened
Imperial control of the region.  Most of the Vincennes navy was handed
over to the local defence fleets of the surrounding worlds, filled out
by Imperial Navy reservists until the worlds could train enough native
crewmen to man the ships.  Armand, now a bedridden and broken invalid,
could only watch as Imperial inspectors dismantled his war machine,
demilitarised his ships, and forced the sale of his armaments industry
to their friends in the megacorps, who converted most of the
industrial plant to civilian applications.  He died shortly
thereafter.

The "polite occupation" lasted some 60 years.  Although Vincennes
nominally kept its privileges and status within the Imperium,
suspicious Imperial nobles and officials kept a close eye on every
activity of the government -- making it plain that any return to
military adventurism would not be tolerated.  Frequent "courtesy
visits" by units of the Imperial Navy and Marines reinforced the
message.  This period came to a gradual end as the growing tensions
between Solomani and Vilani factions in the Imperium reached crisis
point and redirected attentions corewards.  While this infighting led
to fears that Vilani resistance on Paven would be rekindled, these
were largely unfounded -- although in 695 the Imperial authorities did
allow the Vincennes Crown to strengthen its military garrisons on
Paven.  This is generally regarded as marking the point where the
strict demilitarisation of the Empire was relaxed.


The Vincennes economic miracle 696 - 1120

During the following centuries, relations between the Imperium and
Vincennes were normalised.  Having learned their lesson, the planet's
Emperors avoided any suggestion of interstellar adventurism, and
concentrated their efforts on Vincennes' industrial development.
These were good years for the world, as it advanced rapidly in
technology and wealth.  

In a deliberate homage to Arbellatra's Imperial Palace, in 710 the
royal family financed the construction of the city of Blish.  This
vast spherical arcology was suspended in the air by counter-gravity
generators and offered a home to 700,000 people (later modifications
would increase that number to a million, as well as giving the city
thrusters to allow it to move to and from orbit).  While Blish relied
heavily on imported technology, the government encouraged local
companies to invest in facilities to allow construction of similar
cities entirely from local resources.  The immense research and
development effort needed to construct the flying cities, as well as
the awe-inspiring manufacturing plants needed to produce the parts,
had the desired effect.  Vincennes leaped forward in technological
capacity and became the Domain's principal supplier of components for
large-scale construction projects -- from arcologies to space habitats
as well as CG platforms of all kinds.  The biotechnological and
pharmaceutical industries also prospered, as did the production of
vehicles and consumer goods.  

By deliberate policy, the Crown used every available means to
encourage local companies into these growth industries, rather than
rely on foreign investment.  The domination of Vincennes' shipbuilding
industry by the Imperial megacorporations, as a result of the Civil
War, was a cause of much resentment on the world:  and the government
did everything in its power to limit or even roll back this off-world
involvement.

Since space on the flying cities was naturally at a premium, they
tended to be used for high-value export industries and as living
quarters for the better-off section of the community, including the
nobility and the rapidly expanding middle class.  This led to a
growing social division between city-dwellers and arcology-dwellers.
The government had originally planned to move the entire population to
flying cities, but sheer logistics made this impractical.  Instead,
during this period the population and number of arcologies grew to the
extent that an almost-continuous band of settlement right around the
continent developed.  This megalopolis became known as "Leresif" (from
an old word for a coral reef).  However, the growing unpopularity of
Leresif as a place to live compared to the glamorous new cities led to
it becoming a sink for the unwanted, the failures and the losers of
society.  While this may be something of an exaggeration -- even
today, there are plenty of successful businesses and prosperous
families in Leresif -- the stereotype grew until it became a
self-fulfilling prophecy.  Anybody with the drive to do well in life
saw it as their primary goal to get onto a city, and failure to
"escape" from Leresif might destroy their self-confidence forever. 

An unforeseen benefit of the flying cities was the growth of the
tourist trade, as the Domain's wealthier inhabitants came to see these
technological marvels and participate in the gilded life of Vincennes'
bright young things.  While the early cities were functional in shape
and design, later ones became increasingly esoteric, adventurous and
striking in appearance -- in order both to attract visitors and to
instil local pride in their inhabitants (and of course to make a
reputation for the architects).  Even Paven began to benefit from the
tourist trade, as adventurous travellers discovered its ancient
historical palaces and cathedrals (some dating back to the Rule of Man
and the Long Night) and savoured its rich artistic treasures.  Some
even dared to experience the local Vilani peasant culture, with its
undertones of danger and rebellion (and quaint folkloric customs,
traditional music and distinctive French-Vilani cuisine).  If a few
unwary travellers were robbed of all their possessions, held for
ransom, or simply disappeared (and no, the rumours of ritual
cannibalism have never been proven), that simply added to the
excitement.

As a consequence of this economic boom, Vincennes developed a strong
trade surplus.  Demand for Vincennien products -- be they high-tech
manufactured items or consumer goods -- far outstripped supply; and
the megacorporations found themselves in the almost unimaginable
situation where their CrImps were actually less valuable than the
local Vincennien currency.  During the late 9th and early 10th
centuries, Emperor Albert II, Empress Elisabeth III, and Emperor Jean
exploited this situation to gradually buy out the controlling stakes
held by the megacorps in Vincennes' economy.  Instead, they encouraged
the setting-up of joint venture schemes, which gave the off-world
companies a foothold in Vincennes' economy but allowed the local
partners to call the shots.  The Vincennien Crown also offered serious
tax incentives for research and development, encouraging companies to
set up test facilities and laboratories on the planet or elsewhere in
the system.  The result of this was that Vincennes was recognised by
the IISS as having achieved TL 15 in 912, almost a century before the
Imperium officially reached that tech level.  The Second Survey
labelled the world as "incipient TL 16" and that was in turn made
official in 1087.  Vincennes saw a massive and sustained growth in
population during this period, far in excess of Imperial norms, and
mostly from economic migrants come to work in the world's thriving
industries.

In general, Vincennes played the role of loyal Imperial world during
this period, although its interpretation of the Imperium's best
interests often differed from that of the higher nobility.  The
exception was the notorious Perez scandal of 1025.  In 952, the
long-established and venerable Vincennien corporation BTV patented
Reve 3, a potent psychoactive compound.  Users reported full-sensation
hallucinations of remarkable power and clarity in which their
deepest-held desires were fulfilled.  Physical side effects were
minimal;  although the drug was addictive, this addiction was curable
using TL 15 medicine. The only downside was that a tiny minority of
users reported strange experiences in which they felt trapped, and
driven to perform bizarre actions against their will - almost as if
they were caught in someone else's fantasy.

Naturally, Reve 3 quickly became immensely popular on Vincennes, and
on other worlds in the sector which either permitted recreational drug
use or couldn't prevent it being imported.  The drug also came into
widespread medical use as a psychology tool. BTV's share value soared,
and many other corporations rushed to produce their own versions of
the compound (BTV's IP lawyers were kept busy that decade).  It
eventually emerged that the main ingredient of the drug was a natural
substance extracted from the brainstems of _ndiki_, a semi-aquatic
race of carnivore trappers found on the world of Perez/Deneb (1221)
(the ndiki were communal creatures which jointly built structures
similar to beaver dams in Perez's many watercourses to trap their
prey).  A race then ensued among the corporations to acquire breeding
populations of ndiki.  By 975 the species was effectively extinct in
the wild, as the entire population was rounded up into vast corporate
factory farms.

This quickly became a cause celebre among environmentalists in the
Domain, especially after it emerged that the process used to extract
the raw Reve 3 caused extreme pain to the animal concerned.
Demonstrations, boycotts and pickets outside the offices of BTV and
the companies selling similar ndiki-derived drugs became frequent.
However, the situation leaped into wider public awareness in 1002 with
the publication of a best-selling book claiming that the ndiki were
sophonts.  This was based on a study of journals and travellers' tales
from the initial settlement of Perez, describing the tool-using and
problem-solving abilities of the ndiki and the remarkable level of
cooperation they showed in their building and hunting activities.  Of
course, BTV strongly denied the claims and produced evidence
purporting to prove that ndiki were mere unintelligent animals.  In
1009 they even provided two sample creatures to the University of
Deneb for independent study, which appeared to prove the company's
point.  However, the controversy refused to go away:  the secrecy and
high security with which the corporations guarded their Perez
facilities fuelled numerous conspiracy theories.

In 1025, the scandal broke in full force.  In that year, an otherwise
unidentified group of people broke into BTV's compound and captured
several dozen ndiki as well as copies of BTV's corporate records
dating back 75 years.  These were handed over to the IISS base on
Northammon/Deneb (0921).  Tests quickly proved beyond any doubt that
the ndiki were indeed sentient beings.  Worse, BTV had known this all
along and deliberately concealed it -- the two ndiki handed over for
study in 1009 had been chosen because they were congenitally
subnormal.  The implications were shattering:  Imperial citizens had
been deliberately enslaving and torturing to death intelligent beings
in order to produce and sell an addictive drug!

As BTV's share value went into freefall and millions of ex-customers
launched legal suits against the company, the Imperial Ministry of
Justice set up a full scale investigation.  The legal ramifications
went deep into Vincennien society, because the company's board of
directors included many prominent nobles -- and even the royal family
was implicated.  Empress Colette IV managed to escape actual
prosecution herself, but abdicated the throne in disgrace in favour of
her young son.  Two of her cousins were among the Vincennes notables
to be tried and found guilty of conspiracy to commit acts of slavery
and genocide.  BTV itself was broken up and its remaining assets sold
off, while the megacorporations quietly disowned their subsidiaries on
Perez and threw them to the MoJ's wolves.  On Perez, the IISS set up a
programme to close down the farms, return the ndiki to their natural
environments, and assist their development.  The planet was
interdicted to prevent further exploitation of the native sophonts:
this Red Zone was lifted in 1063 but the ndiki remain a protected
species under Imperial law.

(Referees only:  the deep, dark secret...
In all the excitement, few people ever wondered what became of the
ndiki taken to Northammon Scout Base.  If they made a guess, they'd
probably assume they were returned to Perez.  Wrong.  They were
actually shipped out of the sector in absolute secrecy to an Imperial
Research Station in the Spinward Marches.  The tests showed that the
ndiki's remarkable intra-group cooperation was due to a low-level
telepathic link.  Furthermore, the intensely clear and accurate nature
of the hallucinations experienced by users of Reve 3 indicated a
psionic element -- and the rare "bad trips" when a user seemed to
experience someone else's fantasy may have been _exactly that_.  In
other words, Reve 3 was both a natural psi-enhancing drug, and perhaps
even a catalyst of previously-unrecognised telepathic abilities.  It
is therefore possible that the Imperium has continued to produce and
study Reve 3 in secret, despite the horrendous legal and moral
implications.)


In 1107, the Fifth Frontier War broke out.  Keen to prove his loyalty
(and win a massive government contract for Vincennes) Emperor Pierre
III offered to construct and equip an entire new subsector fleet for
the Imperial Navy at TL 16.  He pointed out the tremendous
technological superiority this would give the Imperium over its
Zhodani opponents.  However, Sector Duke Lagaashiga turned down the
offer.  The official reason was the need for compatibility between
Imperial forces and the difficulties of maintaining TL 16 equipment
with standard Navy facilities and technicians.  The real reason was
that the Duke feared the undue influence Vincennes would gain if the
local Imperial Navy fleet was entirely dependent for spares, refits,
and trained staff on a single world in his sector.  Pierre accepted
the decision, but still ordered the building of a TL 16 CruRon for his
planetary navy as a technology demonstration (and, effectively, a way
of saying to the Navy "nah nah nah, look what you're missing!").  

More practically, the war did see an expansion of Vincennes' industry
to produce not entire ships, but selected advanced-technology systems
that could be retrofitted into existing vessels.  For example,
Vincennes is currently the Domain's leading exporter of black globe
generators.  Immigration to Vincennes also reached a new peak during
this period, as individuals and companies relocated away from the
war-torn Spinward Marches.

As of today, Vincennes is a confident and expanding society.  Having
advanced by two tech levels in as many centuries, the people are now
eagerly looking forward to the day when they will be officially
recognised as having attained TL 17.  Vincennes' government is fond of
drawing parallels with Terra in the third millennium pre-Imperium, as
a comparable example of rapid technological and economic development.
The unanswered question is:  will the rest of the Imperium follow them
onwards into the future, or fall back into stagnation and decay?  And
if the Imperium does falter, could the Vincenniens then go on to
emulate their Terran forbears in another, and far more dramatic way?
Nobody says it aloud;  but in their hearts, you can tell that many
Vincenniens believe it.



(Next:  Astrographic and planetological data, or what happens when an
inhabited planet passes directly between two closely-orbiting
companion stars...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:28:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <F79beUzmRf6Ci6nx8dy0001072f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C5EC4B4.210CB8A4@sitraka.com>

Michael,

Michael Barry wrote:
> 
> Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays
> in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.

Could you call the Premiere of Quebec sometime and explain that to him?

Unfortunately, as dumb as secession is, it is quite possible to 
paint it as politically advantageous to the province/world in 
question.

And, honestly, I dunno how really dumb it is. If California, Oregon &
Washington Sate all seceded from the US they'd probably do pretty 
well. A rather nebulously defined concept of patriotism and American
culture keeps it from ever happening though.

In it's corner of the Marches, Trin _is_ the Imperium. New York could
never leave the USA because it's hard to imagine anywhere much more
prototypically American. Even if NY (or NYC!) did leave, it could be
a case of America leaving all the useless bits behind itself. ;)

Such is Trin - Trin's culture defines Imperial culture for much
of the sector. Trin's inability to leave the Imperium is, in some
ways, tautological.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:59:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEIGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <050501c1ada5$cb0c13e0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

dam spell checker...

once it changed the word inconvenience to incontinence, so my line read...
sorry for the incontinence...

on an email about a system outage to the entire company

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml-digest@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stop with one sequel (was Star Trek?)


> >From: Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> >
> >> As a vehicle for showing Winona Ryder's ass?
> >
> >damn... I was so disguised with that movie that I totally missed it...
>
> I was visualizing you wrapping the film itself around your body, kind of
> like a mummy.
>
> --Glenn
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:28:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:28:01 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFAEPNCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and early 80's
I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on my holidays
to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).

I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl
> Sent: 03 February 2002 22:23
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> >
>
> > What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> > people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> > level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> > place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?
>
> Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
> `naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.
>
> > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
>
> Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> one is not properly equipped.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:52:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:52:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
Message-ID: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>

Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
sections.

Thanks in advance.

    - Mark C.

P.S. I was under the impression that they were going to end up in
the "Best of..." section on the TML website, but they're not there.
Also, for some bizarre reason, I can't find them in the archive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:46:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:46:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012844779.6838.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
> shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
> Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.

Unfortunately, due to surface area constraints, there's an upper limit on meson
screens.  This is useful for hunting deep meson sites (they can't simply ignore
you) but the equivalent of a heavy spinal mount will penetrate without
difficulty.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:40:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] (EBay) JTAS 2-24 & Adv. 9
Message-ID: <B884077A.1A0A%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

For those who want the original printings...

Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Issues 2-24 in individual auctions
starting at $1.00NR.

Most of the magazines are in Excellent of Near Mint condition.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&us
erid=s_schoon@pacbell.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=0

Thanks for looking,
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:21:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:21:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] New/Old to the List
Message-ID: <B8840305.1A01%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Hi All,

I used to be a list regular some time back (speaking of which, does the TWG
list still exist?), but set it aside when it looked as if T5 might be
"vaporware."

However, since then I've re-embraced my CT material, and have fitfully begun
to tinker again.


Schon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 17:50:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:50:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204123613.01d644c8@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:22, Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>However, when putting together a vehicle, such as an automobile or even a 
>combat vehicle, there is no need for multi-cubic meter volume for 
>individual workstations.  At most, your average human is going to need 
>0.25 to 0.35 cubic meters to work with.

Err, no.  0.35 cubic meters gives a working space considerably smaller than 
a telephone booth.  For example, as a standing workstation that will 
accommodate someone 6' tall (1.85m) works out to about 17" (0.43m) 
square.  This is a tight fit, and barely gives enough room to operate controls.

If you're unhappy with FF&S control volumes, I would suggest that halving 
them for civilian vehicles might be reasonable.  Measure your automobile's 
"control station" - remember to include the volume of the control 
mechanisms (not only the space occupied by the dashboard, steering wheel, 
and pedals, but also hydraulic steering and brake equipment that is 
elsewhere in the car) as well as your potential legroom (seat all the way 
back), headroom and side space.  I suspect that you'll come up with a 
number that's well over a cubic meter.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:19:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFAEPNCKAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.
 co.uk>
References: <20020203152329.B3308@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204131734.00b8d8b0@mail.charter.net>

Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped you from 
legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of town unarmed?

Otherwise, your point is excellent.

At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
>Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and early 80's
>I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
>when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
>wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on my holidays
>to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
>situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
>
>I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
>carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl
> > Sent: 03 February 2002 22:23
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:04:26PM +0000, Andrew Whincup wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > What I've found really interesting is the different mindset between
> > > people living in different law levels.  Would someone from a low law
> > > level whose used to carrying a blade and a sidearm feel nervous in a
> > > place where he's not allowed to carry them any more?
> >
> > Most definitely--being unarmed is like being unmanned.  The word
> > `naked' is commonly used because that's what it feels like.
> >
> > > In fact would he feel more nervous than someone going the other way.
> >
> > Well, that someone would be feeling the need for what he's never
> > needed before, but it's much the same feeling: the realisation that
> > one is not properly equipped.
>
>Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>
>IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
>vi-
>         And life is harsh and rarely fair.
>
>Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
>the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.

------------------------------------------
"The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:58:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Random T5 Musings: CharGen (longish)
Message-ID: <20020204185831.56845.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> don't propose that T5 ought to keep CharGen from CT.
> No basic CharGen
> and advanced CharGen. I proposed what I did as the
> STARTING point. That
> aspect of Traveller, as it has existed, that should
> be kept. It may be

My misunderstanding.  So what you are getting at is
the basic concepts for a CharGen system?  Or more
specifically, a Traveller(generic) CharGen system?

I would say that the ability to use an advanced or
basic is something that should also be present, but
that it should be more seamless between the two.

The reason I say that is because of my concept of
Traveller (or any RPG).  I see it as a collection of
systems.  These systems are of two types, construction
and interaction.  

Construction systems for Traveller fall into three
broad categories, People, Items, and Worlds.  In each
of these main categories, we have a broad range of
details to potentially work out.  We have basic
(required) characteristics to which we add detail up
to the depth that seems necessary to us.

As evidenced recently, different people(players or
refs) have different ideas of what is "necessary" to
them.  There are those who like a lot of detail from
their Characters, but don't need anything more than a
J and M number from a starship.  Many people are
satisfied with the UWP, while personally, I enjoy lots
of details about a world.  As evidenced by the QSDS,
SSDS, FFS1&2, LBB3, etc discussion, it is important to
be able to construct at a variety of levels of
complexity.  I don't think CharGen should be any
different, but I also agree with you that it is
necessary to keep the systems interchangeable.  (More
later)

The other category of systems (for completeness) are
the Interaction systems.  This would include Combat
(Personnel and Ship), Travel, and Trade/Commerce as
well as others that define how Constructions relate to
one another in various aspects.



So, back to your starting point.  The ideal (T5 we
hope) CharGen system for Traveller will allow for the
use of points or random die rolls in a variety of
detail levels.

What I imagine as far as detail would be "tack-ons" to
the basic necessary details.  For example, TNE used
the contact rules to tack some detail on to the basic
characters.  Some people liked it, others didn't.

Am I close to what you are taling about? :)

If so, I would suggest that the next step is to define
the detail levels that could be handled by CharGen.

> Would it be that easy to modify CT basic CharGen
> into a random or
> deliberate or combination activity? You mention a

I think it would, but that defeats the purpose of your
original post. :)

> referee, but referees
> always modify and tweak that isn't quite the same as
> rules someone on

Maybe I wasn't clear.  I meant that a point system
should be able to handle this.  Now that I see what
you are talking about, it doesn't matter much, but the
generation system in CT does allow for a certain
randomness.

> temporary assignment in a hole on the Antarctican
> continent without a
> phone or a companion could use to generate 1001
> player characters. With
> a random base system he could do that in 10ms after
> writing a computer
> program to generate them. Also, he could do it in 10
> minutes (per
> character) with a program like those designed to
> create GURPS Traveller
> characters. 

I can relate to this very well.  I am a designer when
it comes to Traveller.  Although I am looking at
getting involved in a PBeM or two, my access to
actually playing the game in a group is limited to
eMail.  So what you are suggesting is VERY attractive
to me.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:26:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:26:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: generalturokan@juno.com
>
>Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller forgot
>to include..

I don't think they're impressive.  7 is average, and I think I'm only as
strong and dextrous as the average guy.  I think my endurance is high,
because I'm in better than average cardio shape.  For example, I can walk
for many hours at high altitude with a heavy pack without becoming
exhausted.  Intelligence, education, and social status all tend to (but
don't necessarily) increase with age in the USA, and social status is tied
in part to education in this society.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:47:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <memo.548809@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020203185336.00a98980@mail.peak.org>
Greetings dear hearts.

As another resident in a "you may not carry the wherewithal to protect 
yourself" jurisdiction, I must confess that even if I was permitted to 
carry a handgun or a decent knife, I probably would not. BUT I WOULD LIKE 
TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MY OWN MIND UP! (Apologies for the yell! I'm 
frustrated.)

I walk about half a mile from work (a college) to the train station down 
an isolated and unlit track. I hardly ever see anyone, let alone feel 
threatened by them... but the principal has expressed concern, and the 
site security staff have offered to walk with me. If I did feel unsafe I 
would like to have the option to take my nice big kukri along. As the law 
stands, I don't have that choice. Grrr.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:52:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] Dragging back OT : Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204131734.00b8d8b0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEAACLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Hmm, very good point (threat level vs. Law level.

ISTR that the definition of Law Level was linked to the "chance/likelihood"
of official intervention.  Or am I babbling again?

Another sudden point, should extremely low law levels (poss. modified by gov
type) give a chance of automatic skills in weapons.

A RL for Ex: A friend of mine in Zimbabwe grew up on a farm in Bandit
country, approx 6 hrs away from police/army response.  Due to the high
threat of attack by armed troops he learnt to handle firearms at a _very_
early age.  (Please note all ages are approx, I'm working on 18 yr old
memories here)
i.e. Loading magazines was his very first memory (about 2-3yrs); by the age
of 5 he could fire a light pistol (and was expected to if they were
attacked).  At 8 he got rifle training every Saturday; and was proficient
with a FN rifle by the age of 10ish.

Just some On Topic musings right now.

(and no I'm not interested in discussing the RL events of this time period
in my life, anyone else's or the political/history thereof, sorry)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> Sent: 04 February 2002 18:19
>
> Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped
> you from
> legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of
> town unarmed?
>
> Otherwise, your point is excellent.
>
> At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
> >Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and
> early 80's
> >I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of town.  However
> >when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
> >wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on
> my holidays
> >to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
> >situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
> >
> >I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and traders feel, you
> >carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that reality and
the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -  Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5EE72E.C6EDCEBE@ameritech.net>




> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:58:12 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> Gentlemen please, you're misunderstanding me!

<snip>

> NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING!!!
> GEESH, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY IT?

I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
however based upon your initial response to the original question,

> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:31:47 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Son of MT Ship Design question
>
> Ken,
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:35:36 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>>
>>    Hmm,
>>    I think maybe I can be a _little_ clearer this time around :)
>>    The ship is a TL 15,100ton Yacht with M2, J2, a rugged 48 AF, a 
>> triple  missle turret, and the previously mentioned 112,697.43 CP.
>>    I was contemplating a model 3/fib computer. Its CP Multiplier 
>> (which I  think of as more of a CP _Divider_) of 25 would reduce the
ship's 
>> total to  4507.8972 CP.
>>     I was _palnning_ on a large holodisplay and 2 HUD holodisplays 
>> for the  bridge; which'd eat up 1900 CP; leaving 2607.8972 CP to
wrestle 
>> under control  panels; requiring 1739 hololinked panels. 
>>    The model 3/fib has a Maximum CP Input of 20,000. If the ship's 
>> original,  unreduced CP total needs to be under this number, then I
can't use 
>> the model  3/fib, and must use at _least_ the model 6.
>
> What I see is you're trying to cheat the system. The rules state - 
>
> 1."If a computer is desired, select one from the list below. A computer
> multiplies the number of CP (control points) into it by the CP multiple
> shown. It reduces the number of control panel units needed to control the
> craft."
>
> 2."Select and install enough control panel units and control panel
> add-ons so that the total CPs from the control units multiplied by the
> computer's CP multiplier (if a computer is installed) equals or exceeds
> the number of CPs required to control the craft."
>
> 1.The computer multiplies, NOT the other way around.
>
> Pick your CPU based on need, then the multiplier becomes your friend in
> reducing the required control points.
>
> 2.You double check your work by the second quote above.
>
> Turokan

The issue in question is at what point the maximum input value is
applied. Before the CP multiplier is used or after. You seemed to be
arguing that the multiplier is used before. I am of the considered
opinion that it is applied after. If this was not your original point I
am at a loss as to what your objection to Ken's method in fact is.

> I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED COST, OR ANYTHING WITH TL15!!!

Not directly no. But CPs are Cost*Tech Level/100000. So in discussing
CPs you are implicitly mentioning both.

Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And apologies
in advance if the tone of this message comes across as a bit snarky only
you are yelling and everything.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 19:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:47:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>
>I'm going to chime in on this debate.  I believe the solution to this
>problem is that the Imperium imposes certain minimum legal standards on all
>member worlds.  These standards are intended to be relatively
>non-intrusive, and cover only the situations absolutely necessary for
>Imperial membership.  Worlds are, of course, free to enact local laws in
>addition to or more restrictive than Imperial law, but cannot bypass or
>circumvent Imperial law.

I don't this approach is workable, nor is it as much fun for role-playing,
but I leave it to those who are interested to research the archives for my
position on this recurring subject.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:01:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:01:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trin's Rebellion
In-Reply-To: <200202040717.XAA27335@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020204143543.00a1eec0@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   Rather than talk about things in a nebulous manner, I thought "let's 
break this down into specifics".

I don't know the specifics of Trin, so I intend to ask people what the 
specifics are.  To wit: how is Trin set up?  How many Gas Giants does it 
have?  How about its industries?  Where does it get its space 
resources?  In short, identify all of the strategic and tactical points 
that Trin must defend.

The next thing I'd like to bring forth in this thread's discussion is: What 
are the tactics best employed by the attacker and the best tactics employed 
by the defender.

Phase I of the tactics used by the Imperium would likely be to emplace an 
embargo of Trin.  Ships that can be shown to be violating system navigation 
rules (designed to keep tabs on where the ships have been etc), will be 
investigated.  A local navy would then have to stage from some location in 
order to attack Trin.  Chances are Trin knows of this nearby location and 
may decide to deal with removal of such bases.

Phase II would be the actual attack on Trin's major strategic and/or 
tactical assets.  Industries need raw resources.  Assuming that Trin has 
asteroid belts that have not been mined out of existance, these raw 
resources become strategic vulnerabilities.  Gas Giants also become 
strategic in nature.

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that we use the GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules on jump emergence propogating Electromagnetic waves that can be 
picked up by sensitive sensors.  Lets further assume that we are using HIGH 
GUARD's vulnerability towards hydrogen fuel being required to power the 
powerplants.

What can the Impies do to the Trinites?

Let us assume that Trin is like our solar System.  Let us further assume 
that Neptune, Saturn, and Jupiter are valid refueling points.  Let us 
further assume that we are using the asteroid belt as a resource for our 
earth based industries.  This means we have the following points to defend:

3 refueling points, 1 habitation point, 1 resource point that is spread out 
over the entire orbital radius.

Ok, Earth is purely defensive right now (for the sake of argument) and has 
some highly effective ships.  Heavily armored due to the fact they can use 
smaller ships without fuel tankage volume - moderately armed due to smaller 
volumes.  Capital weapon ships are much more dangerous and much nastier 
than their jump ship counter-parts.

What are Earth's/Trin's problems at this point?

If you guard the gas giants as singular points, you are doing well.  Problems:

1) what if the Imperials are using Tanker ships?
2) how are you guarding the gas Giants?  If you have three fleets on each 
of the gas giants, you have effectively allowed the Impies to negate your 
numerical advantage.  In other words, to *equal* your forces at the 
engagement zone, the Imperial only needs 1/3rd your overall force size 
(actually, it is worse because Earth/Trin needs to guard its home world and 
its raw resources)
3) what if the Impies launch a diversionary attack at another location, and 
then launches an all out attack at *one* of the gas giants?

So you give up the fact that you can't control one or more Gas 
Giants.  Maybe you set up automated Defenses at one Gas Giant and indicate 
that the Enemy will have to clear those defenses without any loss on your 
part.  So you concentrate your defenses on two gas giants instead of 
three.  Problems are similar to the ones mentioned above.

So - suppose instead, the Impies go right for the throat?  With the 
distances between the gas Giants and the habitable planet - what ever 
forces the Defenders allocate to the defense of those assets, might just as 
well not exist when the Impies come calling on the home world or the raw 
resources locations.  Again, the attackers can concentrate their offensive 
force while the defenders can not.  But the problems get worse here.  An 
attack on the home world demonstrates that the citizens are not safe from 
hit and run  raids.  They lose ship tonnage in the war that they themselves 
have to make good on.  Any ships lost by the Impies on the other hand, get 
absorbed by the other "planets".  They have unfettered access to resources 
while the Trinites don't.

The Trinites cannot afford to leave their home world undefended, nor can it 
afford to leave forces guarding the fuel points because that leads to 
defeat in detail.

Have I overlooked anything from the offensive tactics?

                      Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:24:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <000901c1ad6d$9315bb40$f400a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020205082411.A16096@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> I'm doing exactly that.  I looked at MySQL  but  it  doesn't  yet
> have a procedural language (so no triggers or stored procedures).

Yeah, I considered a couple of other DBMs for better flexibility, but
MySQL won because I've already got it installed with the appropriate
modules for PHP :) If I want to transfer it to another system, it
won't be terribly difficult.

I have now imported the 'classic' Galactic sector/subsector files into
SQL; 10,155 systems so far.  There must be lots more data out there,
since that includes only 2270 in the Imperium.  I don't know where I'm
going to get the other 8000+ Imperial systems :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 21:52:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:52:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin's Rebellion
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020204143543.00a1eec0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012859564.7515.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:

> I don't know the specifics of Trin, so I intend to ask people what the 
> specifics are.  To wit: how is Trin set up?  How many Gas Giants does it 
> have?  How about its industries?  Where does it get its space 
> resources?  In short, identify all of the strategic and tactical points 
> that Trin must defend.

Points to defend: per Behind the Claw, we have Trin (22B people), the inner
world Scorcher (31M people), and LSPs colony in the outsystem (12k people). 
Trin may not care about LSP.  Tactically speaking, the star's 100D limit is at
0.5 AU (M0 primary) while Trin is at around 0.25 AU, which severely limits the
ability to perform hit and run attacks, though a major attack on Scorcher could
hit the world before reinforcements from Trin could get there.  OTOH, 6G SDBs
can get from Trin to Scorcher (assuming 0.1 AU) in about 18 hours, while a 6G
fleet making a running jump in would take 13 hours to arrive if they wished to
decelerate; this probably isn't long enough to take out fixed defenses at
Scorcher.  If the Imperium wanted to bomb Scorcher they probably can, though
the entire colony is underground; the 3I may not find it useful to kill 12
million civilians, and it would be hard to take out militarily valuable targets
without cracking the habitats open.

There's been a long discussion of fleet tactics on defense.  Most likely Trin
will ignore defense of the gas giant, other than possibly placing some sniper
units in the atmosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:40:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:40:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Well I been doing some thinking about siting an Arsenal, sort of a
proto-depot, one capable of growing into a full fledged depot in time.

Considerations

What are the requirements of a Depot, we'll assume that an arsenal has to
fulfill them as well.

As I see it they would include:

existence of an extant Navy base, they  know the system and there is some
infrastructure to develop.

a gas giant in system

near an extant X-boat line tie into existing lines of communications

being off main trade and travel lines:  a lot of though traffic is not
encouraged

being near the center of the Sector,  'get there fastest with the mostest,
no matter where/

Being near being at least two jumps away form any frontier, having your
depot occupied is not one of those generic good things.

Having several ways out.  the way in from the front line areas should
coverable by the fleet without stretching it too much

Being near higher population worlds, useful for the warm bodies you need

Being currently small enough to be able to be removed from the general
economy without too much adverse effect,  Depot worlds  being in essence
closed of, besides a smaller value makes it easier for the IN to buy out the
natives

not being located at a choke point,  systems being cut off must be
negligible or accessible by other means

Recall that IN line standards are J4 and Colonial fleets are say J3

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:40:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Special consideration within the spinward marches
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Points

Cronor, Querion, Darrien, Five Sisters, Sword Worlds, and District 268 are
perhaps not the ideal places to locate a depot definitely counting as on the
front line.

figure that Jewell and Vilis are not good bets either.

figure that must of your broken ships will be found in Jewell, Regina,
Villas, Lunion, and Lanth in the event of a war.

In order of bad idea to let 'em conquer it, you have the Zhodane, the Sword
Worlds, the Vagyr and the Aslan. the last two probably not being up to doing
more the raiding.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:57:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:57:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <B883EB22.233F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FC8B7.2779.550197@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 7:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just judging from this list, it would appear that how someone feels about
> being armed will probably be more related to culture than law level.  There will
> be some worlds that have high law level where people will arm themselves
> regardless of the law (PNG) and some where the idea is unthinkable.  This could
> be also true of low law level worlds.  In my own state of Oregon it's quite
> legal to go about armed (as long as it is concealed, we just don't want to see
> it) but attitudes vary between large cities and rural areas.  And while one can
> carry a concealed handgun, carrying a concealed knife (except small blades) is
> suspect. In other countries, having a large 'chopper' on one's belt is
> absolutely normal. In others, toting an AK-47 is typical behavior.

My father (who lives on a 'lifestyle block' of 10 acres out in the country) 
habitually wears a belt knife around home. When going to a livestick aution 
once he forgot to remove it and only realised when he got home, as no one 
thought it worthy of comment. Another time he went into town wearing it and 
found out when he walked into a bank, after which he got to have a talk with 
the police about 'being more careful' next time.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:10:03 +1300
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FCB9B.12579.604DBE@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 12:52, markc@peak.org wrote:

> Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
> Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
> (either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
> enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
> the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
> sections.
> 
> Thanks in advance.

Try <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rboleyn/downloads/index.html>, I've just 
put up a copy.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:15:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Regina, Armamis, Lanth, Rhylanar possible sites
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEJLEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Regina sub Sector

Inthe

0810  B575776 2 Agricultural

Advantages

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant.

If xboat link at Tureded it built within two jumps of two sub sector
capitals
Ag world, supporting if cut off
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region
One jump away from Rylanor, a TL 15 world useful source of expertise
On spur of Spinward Main

Disadvantages

TL 9 and Star Port B
________________

Lanth sub Sector

Ivendo

0709 B324659 A

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant.
TL B
Scout Navy Base Colocated
Off spur of Spinward Main
Near center of action

(editoral comment, Why there is no Xboat links between D'Ganzio and Ianic or
why the Xboat link between Icentina and Reston take two extra jumps through
Garrinski and Fosey when a direct link is possible is beyond me)

Disadvantages

Isolated, no High Tech worlds within easy range, Heroni the nearest
Industrial world is TL 8
Easily choked off at D'Granzio
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region
Poor Ag potential, either at hand or near by

Icetina

0808 b524519 7
Low tech plus all the advanatages and disadvantages of Ivendo

(Note:  D'Ganzio is too near the front line for consideration)

Aramis Sub Sector

Paya

0109 A655241 9

Naval Base, Gas Giant
Type A Spaceport
Off spur of Spinward Main
both locally arable and near to Ag worlds
On the unfashionable arm of the Spinward Main, could assist develop
development of region

Disadvantages
Rethe the nearest High Pop world is Low tech and poor
Inaccessible, sub sector capitols three or more jumps away
not on a x boat line, though it could be relocated

Rhylanor Sub sector

Risek
0307 A3235579 A

Advantages

Naval Base, X boat, Gas Giant
Type A spaceport
Off spur of Spinward Main
Good access to Deneb Sector

Disadvantage
removed from front zones
cuts off Zivije
long lines of communication with sub sector capitals

____________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:31:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:31:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:

> In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
> building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
> Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
> would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
> the standard universe.
> 
> I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
> if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
> could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
> the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
> an import utility from Galactic data files.


I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an 
Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would 
like...what does MySQL import?

SQL is the query languange, not the data format...unless you want the 
data in endless rows of

'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'

(which I can do if you want, though...)

The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)

SQL> desc sectors
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
-------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         VARCHAR2(20)
  WORLDNAME                                          VARCHAR2(14)
  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
  UWP                                                CHAR(12)
  BASES                                              CHAR(1)
  CODES                                              CHAR(17)
  ZONE                                               CHAR(3)
  POPMULT                                            FLOAT(126)
  BASENUM                                            FLOAT(126)
  GASGIANT                                           FLOAT(126)
  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
  STELLARDATA                                        CHAR(20)

I've also broken out the sector demographic data and broke down the UWP's

SQL> desc sectdemos
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
----------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
  POPULATION                                         NUMBER(18)
  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)

SQL> desc sectoruwp
  Name                                      Null?    Type
  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
----------------------------
  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
  HEXNO                                              CHAR(4)
  STARPORT                                           VARCHAR2(1)
  SIZENO                                             VARCHAR2(1)
  ATM                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  HYD                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  POP                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  GOV                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  LAW                                                VARCHAR2(1)
  TL                                                 VARCHAR2(2)


The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?

If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 22:57:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:57:43 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #120
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112536.01d47e18@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FC8B7.5857.5501A1@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 11:29, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Yeah; I'd be worried about how to ship them at reasonable cost.  Cases of 
> beer are heavy, and I doubt I could take them with me on the airplane.

The worst of it is that most of the weight's in the beer itself, so lighter 
storage materials don't really help. Even using 1.5 Litre Coke bottles (which 
actually make really good homebrew bottle, IME) still leaves you with 70 kg of 
beer.
 
> >I was wondering what the cheapest way of shipping four 20 Litre buckets of beer
> >from here to the US would be. :)
> 
> Yes.  I'm thinking that Cornelius kegs would be a good way of handling 
> it.  Unfortunately, they're expensive and I don't have the kegs or tap system.

Me neither. As I put down maybe one brew a year I haven't bothered to get more 
than the basics.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:38:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:38:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Lunion, Glisten, Mora, Trin's Veil
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Lunion

None

Mora sub sector

Mercury 
0204 B658663 8

Advantages

Co located Navy and Scout base
Gas giant
Two jumps from Mora and Lunion
Ag world

Disadvantages

Low Tech world
Disadvantages
few routes out
not on x boat route

Glisten

Egypt

0107 BA6567 7

Advantages

Navy base, on x boat route, gas giant
good access to Glisten
three hi pop (9) worlds within two jumps
Near TL F Glisten
could serve any expansion toward the Great Rift and Districts 268
Near Ag world


Disadvantages
low TL
District 268's status is uncertain
poor access to Zhodane front





Mora
Moran

0504 C367300 8

Advantages
One jump from Mora, a TL 15 Pop A world
Gas giant

Disadvantages
Low tech, 
not on x boat route
removed form front line areas by long route
 
Trin's Veil

None





________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:41:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:41:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2PC534YsK4IXKl000020e1@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <B8845C0C.2346D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/4/02 9:52 AM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:

> Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
> Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
> (either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
> enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
> the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
> sections.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> - Mark C.

 Mark,

Check the archives at http://tml.travellercentral.com.  Everything should be
there. You may have to search a bit.


Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 23:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:45:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: aging
Message-ID: <20020204.154545.-78113.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Glenn

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:26:57 -0800 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> >From: generalturokan@juno.com
> >
> >Impressive stats. Shows us real life improvements which Traveller 
> forgot to include..
> 
> I don't think they're impressive.  7 is average, and I think I'm 
> only as strong and dextrous as the average guy. 

True, but  I was looking at the physical stats with your age, compared to
Traveller characters. Impressive by 1. my stats - 101, and 2. typical
pc's of similar age. The rules in MT alow physical improvements true, but
you typically add them in college with little mention in service, or
should I say little improvement unless you roll mostly on the Personal
Development Table at the cost of missing a skill, or education.

TUROKAN


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:01:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
Message-ID: <20020204.160155.-78113.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

David

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600 David Shayne
<daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
> I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
> however based upon your initial response to the original question,
> 
> Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And 
> apologies in advance if the tone of this message comes across
> as a bit snarky only you are yelling and everything.
> 
> David Shayne

I'm sorry for yelling. Be as SNARKY as you like :~). 
My first post was not detailed enough, though my later posts were, and
everyone knows how things get blown apart if a misstatement is made. Like
my cannon vs canon blunder.

Enjoy,

Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:31:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202041742.g14HgYN19903@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020204162952.00a2e030@mailhost.efn.org>

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:28:20 -0500, Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> 
wrote:

>And, honestly, I dunno how really dumb it is. If California, Oregon &
>Washington State all seceded from the US they'd probably do pretty
>well. A rather nebulously defined concept of patriotism and American
>culture keeps it from ever happening though.

There's also the fact that if Oregon and Washington were to secede, it 
would be to get *away* from California.  (Speaking of regional culture and 
politics... :)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 00:50:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:50:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup  [long]
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OE41re6w8fwqkPqJ3Uh0000aafd@hotmail.com>

Guys, this is my take on the Rebellion, all the way to the Collapse.  There
are two versions, one covers an era where Strephon lives, and the other
where, well, he doesn't.  Special thanks to Larsen Whipsnade, Bruce Johnson,
and Rupert Boleyn.  Maybe someone on the list can come up with a snappy name
for the thread, like Wounded Colossus or something.  I'll start with the
line that has Strephon survive.

 132-1116 Sees the assassination attempt by Dulinor.  After the Archduke has
left, Ilelish Imperial Guard units barricade themselves in the palace.
Lucan, seizing his opportunity, murders Varian.  Windhook flees off world.
Chaos spreads as Household Calvary and Artillery units begin deployment
around the palace.  Jump-6 couriers depart for the Spinward Marches, Vland,
Antares, and Terra.  Shortly thereafter, travel is suspended to and from
Capital.

 133-1116 Tranian, Archduke of Gateway, is summoned to the Imperial Command
Reservation.  The ICR is an extensive underground facility located beneath
the floating palace.  Most of the complex is used to store Household Calvary
and Artillery vehicles, but a secret partition holds the cloning banks.
Upon his arrival, Tranian is briefed by Strephon's Moot liaison, Baron Mei
Jin.  Moot liaison had been a dead office for centuries, and by 1116 had
devolved to merely another title on a planet full of them.  However, Mei was
vested with near unlimited clearance, allowing him access to a special
Imperial Warrant stored in the ICR, to be used only in circumstances of
Premature Succession, the euphemism for public clone deaths.  Faced with a
legitimate Imperial Warrant, a taped holovid of Strephon explaining the
existence of the clones and expecting loyalty from his true nobles, and
extra emperors, Mei was able to convince Tranian that the real emperor
remained alive and well.  Securing the Archduke's cooperation, one of the
clones is removed from stasis.

 134-1116 The throne room is stormed by Imperial Guards, where the body of
Strephon is secreted away during the fighting by Sylean Rangers under strict
orders from Tranian.  Engagements continue in other parts of the palace, but
loyalist forces have the situation pretty much under control.  Meanwhile the
living clone is surgically altered with a wound consistent with that
suffered by the first clone, severe but survivable.

 135-1116 The palace is secured, and order has been restored on the planet.
Travel is resumed to and from Capital.  Strephon appears on the media
outlets, proclaiming Dulinor a traitor.  Jump-6 couriers are dispatched once
again.  Lucan is held under suspicion of murder, pending further
investigation.

Strephon learns about "his" assassination on 181-1116.  Stunned by the news,
his advisors plot a course for Usdiki.  However, by 188-1116 Strephon has
regained composure and orders the ship to Capital, arriving by 235-1116.
Once back on scene, he begins the marshalling of fleet resources.  Core,
Forenast, Diaspora, and Massila sector fleets are ordered to the trailing
subsectors of Zarushagar.  Strephon, overruling his advisors, travels at the
head of Core Fleet.  With Lucan arrested for murder and Tranian set to
return to his territory, Margaret is summoned to Capital.  As Strephon's
fleet proceeds towards Ilelish, mobilization orders for 8 fleets from Vland,
Lishun, and Antares arrive.  Brzk is quick to respond, but Ishuggi
vacillates, with the consequence that the three detachments arrive at
Depot/Zarushagar, the Imperial rendezvous point, at the same time, near the
end of 1117.

 Dulinor, arriving at his residence on 244-1116, has long prepared for this
day.  Ilelish fleet, as well as several fleets from Gushemege, Zarushagar,
and Dagudashaag declare for the rebel Archduke.  Dulinor has already placed
his men in all the critical positions in Ilelish sector, and had planned to
consolidate his holdings in rimward Gushmege, before setting out against
whoever it was that held Capital.  When, late in 1116, he learned of
Strephon's survival, everything changed.  He had been counting on chaos and
infighting, not a strong and unified response.  The campaign to take Capital
was placed on hold, his fleets instead settling into defensive positions.
It was hoped that perhaps the capture of Ilelish could be made so costly
that the Emperor would be willing to come to favorable terms.

 On the Solomani Rim, the news of the Emperor's death was received with
glee.  Rioting broke out on Terra and across the Rim.  The news reaches Home
on 001-1117, setting into motion the planned invasion of the Imperium.  As
news continued to filter in, the Solomani command decided to continue
despite Strephon's survival.  There were some that feared an external threat
might take precedence over the domestic dispute, but the plan continued
nonetheless.  By late 1117, Solomani fleets had struck into the Solomani
Rim, Old Expanses, and Daibei.  The fighting continues along the lines, with
mixed results.  The Solomani have the most success in the Old Expanses,
where incompetence and even treason among the sector nobility offset the
Imperial fleet strength.  By mid 1118, the 4 rimward subsectors have
completely surrendered.  Constantly receiving conflicting orders, the Old
Expanses fleet finds itself fighting individually rather than as a
collective unit.

 Norris, learning of Strephon's assassination on 328-1116, takes the rank of
Archduke the next day.  When, on 331-1116, it becomes known that Strephon
has survived, Norris sends a delegation to Capital explaining his action.
Meanwhile, the Zhodani react to Norris' elevation with dismay.  It is
thought that creating a clearer chain of command among the local nobility
increases the threat they present.  And, the Joes still recall Norris'
performance during the Fifth Frontier War.  Rather than suffer this threat,
the Zhodani prepare to embark upon another Frontier War, in the hopes of
catching the Imperium off balance.  However, the Consulate Navy had still
not fully recovered from the last war.  So, rather than begin with an attack
on the Imperium itself, the Zhodani helped the Sword Worlds begin a campaign
to recover the Border Worlds, as well as an attack on the Darrians.  By mid
1118, Consulate backed Sword Worlds forces managed to overrun the Border
Worlds, and had made slow inroads on the Darrians.  When Imperial forces
finally stirred themselves to reestablish the Border Worlds, Zhodani and
Vargr ships struck the border.



Remeber, this is just a sort of rough draft.  The dates especially I could
use a little help with.  More to come.

Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:18:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:18:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Wounded Colossus series?
In-Reply-To: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <4jcu5u0isfjgm5q9me86acn3r475rt0e1s@4ax.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:31:37 -0800 (PST), "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org>
wrote:

>Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
>Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
>(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
>enough and don't have the first 3 parts.  I'd really like to have
>the entire thing and would appreciate any help getting the missing
>sections.

I have them all, and they will appear in the next update of Freelance
Traveller (which will hopefully be this weekend, but may be delayed if the
Department continues to exercise its right to my undivided attention during
my workday).

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:18:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] GenCon 2002 UP!
Message-ID: <B88472D2.1A96%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Hi All,

The new GenCon Pre-Registration AND Housing is up!

http://www.wizards.com/gencon/2002/main.asp?x=2002/preregistration

I can personally attest to this as I've just finished both processes
successfully.

Enjoy (I know I will),
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:26:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:26:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204172549.00b20e40@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Bruce!

Do you happen to have an XML export format available?  :-)

Thanks!

Charles McKnight

At 04:31 PM 2/4/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Timothy Little wrote:
>
>>In my efforts to build a nifty navigation utility, I'm thinking of
>>building a database to keep track of all my planets.  Although my own
>>Traveller universe differs from the standard one in many details, it
>>would still be useful to have at least the basic UWP information for
>>the standard universe.
>>I'm thinking of using MySQL as my database engine, and was wondering
>>if anyone has already built a database holding standard data which
>>could be dumped as relatively standard SQL.  I don't want to reinvent
>>the wheel completely from scratch.  As it is, I'm considering writing
>>an import utility from Galactic data files.
>
>
>I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an 
>Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would 
>like...what does MySQL import?
>
>SQL is the query languange, not the data format...unless you want the data 
>in endless rows of
>
>'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
>
>(which I can do if you want, though...)
>
>The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
>This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)
>
>SQL> desc sectors
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- -------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         VARCHAR2(20)
>  WORLDNAME                                          VARCHAR2(14)
>  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
>  UWP                                                CHAR(12)
>  BASES                                              CHAR(1)
>  CODES                                              CHAR(17)
>  ZONE                                               CHAR(3)
>  POPMULT                                            FLOAT(126)
>  BASENUM                                            FLOAT(126)
>  GASGIANT                                           FLOAT(126)
>  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
>  STELLARDATA                                        CHAR(20)
>
>I've also broken out the sector demographic data and broke down the UWP's
>
>SQL> desc sectdemos
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
> ----------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
>  HEX                                                CHAR(4)
>  POPULATION                                         NUMBER(18)
>  ALLEGIANCE                                         CHAR(3)
>
>SQL> desc sectoruwp
>  Name                                      Null?    Type
>  ----------------------------------------- -------- 
> ----------------------------
>  SECTORNAME                                         CHAR(20)
>  HEXNO                                              CHAR(4)
>  STARPORT                                           VARCHAR2(1)
>  SIZENO                                             VARCHAR2(1)
>  ATM                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  HYD                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  POP                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  GOV                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  LAW                                                VARCHAR2(1)
>  TL                                                 VARCHAR2(2)
>
>
>The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
>do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?
>
>If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
>supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:03:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050255090.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Timothy Little writes:
>Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>>Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population is 22 billion,
>>not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP is TCr 462, not TCr 150.
>
>I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop multiplier of 1 for
>Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that when I get it into the database.

According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ Trin had a pop multiplier of 1 in
1110. According to _Regency sourcebook_ it had still had it in 1117. So
unless you believe that Trin has somehow gained no less than 7 billion
inhabitants in three years (pop one can be anything up to 14 billion), the
figure in _BtC_ is yet another of its numerous errors.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:59:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:59:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEJOEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OE17gbpF79ZeG3LR5bo00013927@hotmail.com>

Things just keep getting worse.  Again, special thanks to Rupert Boleyn,
Larsen Whipsnade, and Bruce Johnson.


By the end of 1117/ early 1118, Strephon has assembled his fleet at
Depot/Zarushagar.  It is here he becomes aware of the attacks on the
Solomani Rim and the Spinward Marches.  The loyal fleet holds numerical
superiority over the defenders, so the Emperor decides to crush Dulinor
first.  Once Ilelish has been secured, the combined fleet will move out to
reinforce the Domain of Sol.  Because the fleet assets were drawn from
insulated sectors, it is believed that each front will remain relatively
stable until the usurper can be dealt with.  Nevertheless, the two foreign
invaders do force the Imperial fleet to change their strategies.  Rather
than a slow, practiced campaign similar to the first Ilelish revolt, the
need for the ships on the frontiers convinces the Emperor to wage a more
vigorous offensive.  Spinward Zarushagar and trailing Ilelish become the
primary battlefields in 1118/1119.

 Dulinor, for his part, lacks the fleet strength to wage counter offenses.
By relying on reserve and planetary forces to help offset his numerical
deficiency, he was forced to surrender the strategic initiative.  Instead,
Dulinor began to wage a war of commerce raids and deep strikes, designed to
destroy the assets that will allow fleets to move across the Zarushagar
sector.

 On the Rim, matters continue to degrade.  Without the strategic reserve of
ships from Diaspora, the rimward sectors are forced to fight on their own.
Cowardice and incompetence had led to the collapse of the Old Expanses.  The
sector began to descend into a no man's land.  Imperial fleets in the region
began to act independent of their civil command authority, defending the Old
Expanses despite the nobility.  However, scattered and isolated, Imperial
forces were no matched for the massed Solomani units.  In response, the
Imperial fleets resorted to commerce raiding and deep strikes on command and
control centers, forcing the Solomani to dedicate an increasing number of
ships to consolidation over worlds whose nobles had already surrendered.
Unfortunately, the nature of commerce raiding forces formations to scatter.
As a result, due to battle losses, attrition, and even some out right
treason, the Old Expanses fleets began to melt away.   Daibei and the
Solomani Rim both faired better against the Confederate offensive.  Adair
was able to link up with the Vegans, and maintained a viable front all
through 1118 and 1119.

 In the Spinward Marches, Archduke Norris' situation was turning more
serious by the week.  By 1118, Strephon had accepted Norris' self-promotion.
With his title confirmed, Norris took personal command for the war.  Fast
reaction plans called for the mobilization of Deneb fleet, to counter
Zhodani advances in the Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach.  Though Imperial
fleets had been pushed out of the Jewell and Regina subsectors, Consulate
advances were half hearted seeming to have been stopped by late 1118.  The
addition of Deneb fleet signaled a renewed counter offensive with the aim of
liberating Efate.  In reality, Zhodani forces swept through Trojan Reach
sector, into Rhylanor and Trin's Veil, as well as the rimward subsectors of
Deneb.

 At Capital, reports continued to file in.  With the Emperor at the Ilelish
front, direction of the war fell primarily to the admiralty.  This would
have occurred at any rate.  The difference was that the remaining nobles
began to balk at the assignment of their fleets to the fronts.  Without a
clear-cut authority, every decision experienced additional lag time.  When
news of the attack on Rhylanor and Trin's Veil reached Capital, it was
decided to release Corridor fleet to deal with the Zhodani.  Strephon's
reemphasis of the domains inserted the Archduke into the chain of command
through which orders must flow.  When faced with the command to release
Corridor fleet, Ishuggi stalled, delayed, and then finally refused.  When
news of this finally reached Corridor fleet command, in mid 1120, the fleet
tore itself apart.  Corridor's Sector Admiral, along with 9 of the 16 fleets
departed for the Spinward front, while the other 7 remained under the
command of Ishuggi's men.  Disobeying a deployment order can have only one
meaning, so Capital ordered Archduke Brzk to suppress Ishuggi.  Brzk began
to assemble his fleets, reinforced by Ley sector to help replace those ships
that had gone to Zarushagar with Strephon in 1117.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 02:37:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:37:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] small notice
Message-ID: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki>

If anyone has recently placed some interesting content on the TML and
seeks input from we, the readers, please know I have recently shunted a
few interesting post into my review pile. I hope to smack it tomorrow
night. So rest easy, you have at least another day's reprieve from this
deranged mind.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>  (:^{>    <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 04:34:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:34:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus series?
References: <200202042331.g14NVb221514@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c1adfe$787c6040$cba45940@JohnDanielStrain>

I may be able to help out here -- email me off list.

John Strain 


> From: "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org>
> Subject: Wounded Colossus series?
> 
Has anyone on the list assembled all 5 parts of Larsen's "Wounded
Colossus" series into a single document?  If so, is it available
(either on the web of via e-mail?)  I didn't start saving them soon
enough and 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 04:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:24:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>

Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships engaged in
fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is somewhat sluggish
even for a single large ship, to say nothing of a BatRon.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:04:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:04:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202041245.g14Cjjl18691@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050657590.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

My suggestion is that the Imperium defines murder as "the unsanctioned
termination of a sapient life-form". This allows them the wiggle room to
let local rules apply. If the local rules allow duels, killing in a duel
is not murder. If they don't, the exact similar act is murder. It is, of
course, implicit that only authorities acknowlegded by the Imperium can
give the sanction.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:34:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>>Which means that it belongs to the Duchess of Mora, who might consider it
>>reasonable to flash freeze them and send them to Trin, if she was worried
>>about a world in rebellion a month away. That sounds like a long way in our
>>anywhere in a day world, but countries in the age of sail typically
>>concerned themselves with areas as far away as several months travel time.
>
>Since Trin is in open rebellion, refusing to lend her forces to supress the
>rebellion might cause the Marines to come visit her.  Not good.

Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
little bit of support.

Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
TTL15 infantryman).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 06:45:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:45:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
In-Reply-To: <200202030659.g136xEr11787@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>>My take is that the 34 fleets stationed in the Domain of Deneb are
>>raised and maintained by the worlds of the domain (and are thus somewhat
>>below the Imperial average in strength)
>
>Considering that this is one of the Imperium's most threatened and
>vulnerable borders, wouldn't it make sense for it to receive support
>from the core worlds?

Some of us are doubtful about from how far away you can really support
anything. There are logistical problems. If a battleship is stationed at
Mora, how does Vland help maintain it. The classical way is that Vland
gives Mora a check for the work, whereupon Mora does the work and then
buys stuff from Vland for the amount. But this presupposes some degree of
trade between the two worlds.

Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
Marches.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:07:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Simple Design Systems
In-Reply-To: <200202040328.g143SXY16878@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204125758.01c6bde0@mail.qrc.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:40:27, Michael Taylor wrote:
>So be aware that these are my personal reactions based on my personal 
>feeling of what Traveller should be.

Sure!

>3. USD Size. I dont know what this is or why I should care?

The USD Size parameter is driven from the T4 starship combat rules; this is 
a number you have to have in order to do T4 combat.

>Doesn't seem to be the same as the "USP" in High Guard.

It's not.

>If I *did* care I'd want to know why this system couldn't handle size 0-7 
>or 9 or more?

Sizes 8 and 9 correspond to items between 100 and 9999 dtons, which is the 
size range of ships that QSDS handles.  Items larger than size 9 are 10,000 
dtons or larger; Sizes 0 through 7 are for items smaller than 100 dtons.

>9. WEAPONS. Spinal Mount Weapons. Without this, the entire system is
>useless to me. If I can't build ALL my ships with this system, I dont want
>to learn a 'new' system.

QSDS can't build all Traveller starships; it's roughly similar to the old 
Book 2 design system, in that it handles only vessels between 100 and 5,000 
tons, and only has a limited set of choices for equipping your ships.  One 
reason that pains were made to preserve FF&S compatibility was to ensure 
that people who wanted more options could build them later.

>Well, that ought to give you an idea of how I look at it.

Yes; that was helpful.

>Just a little too much 'extraneous' stuff for me. I want to be able to see
>a ship on Babylon 5 or Andromeda and build completely it 20 minutes later.

With a little practice, I believe you actually can; I've done QSDS designs 
with nothing more than a pencil, paper, calculator, and about a half-hour 
of time.  Not as fast as Book 2, but faster than High Guard (and certainly 
faster than any Traveller ship design since High Guard).

>Here's a fairly good example. Not perfect, but good.
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3744/BTFTstarships.html
>That's sorta the idea I'm personally looking for.

These are the old WarpWar starship rules (I own a copy - fun little game, 
but IMHO not as good as the original StarFire) with a little bit of TFT 
embellishment.  WarpWar was a strategic space game produced by Metagaming 
(the same folks who gave Steve Jackson his start in the industry, and also 
publishers of Wizard/Melee/TFT).

These sorts of rules are not what I'd really consider a design system; it's 
more a rating or play balance system.  In a role-playing game, the referee 
has to decide what is possible and what is not, based on his conception of 
the ship's actual design.  As an example, it appears that a "systemship 
rack" can hold any size of systemship, from a very small 10-point design up 
to a thousand point dreadnought (even if the warpship mounting the racks is 
much "smaller" than the systemship in question).

I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives enough 
detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.  It's also nice to have some 
idea of the exterior of the ship.  At least in my games, the players spend 
a lot of time in, on, and around ships, so being able to describe them in 
detail helps add a lot to my games.

However, with your request (and the WarpWar rules) in mind, I've whomped* 
up some really basic Traveller ship design rules.  This rules set will 
appear in a follow-up posting tonight, and are one-parameter (volume) 
rules.  I doubt that it's possible to get Traveller rules more streamlined 
than this.  The trade-off is that there is considerable "slop" in them, 
even compared to QSDS.  Designs should be within about 20% of "reality" 
(except for price, which is estimated).  Very little detail is supplied, 
but the design system should be straightforward and very fast to use.

* Yes, that's a technical term.  ;-)

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:36:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202041245.g14Cjjl18691@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205020730.00a48da0@mail.qrc.com>

Trivial Traveller Ship Design

This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
"Travelleresque" ship designs.  It is intended to be used by a referee, 
since a wide variety of potentially-unbalancing designs can be 
constructed.  In any case, all ship designs should be thoroughly vetted by 
the referee before allowing them into a campaign.

To construct a ship, decide on a volume (in dtons) for the vessel, and 
cross index the desired maneuver and jump performance in the Ship Payload 
Matrix.  The value in the body of the table is the percentage of the ship's 
volume remaining for "payload", after basic hull systems, drives, fuel, and 
power plant have been installed.  Bridge, weapons, crew and passenger 
quarters, carried craft, and other fittings must be installed from the 
remaining payload space.

Ship Payload Matrix

TL      10      10      11      12      13      14      15
Jump    0       1       2       3       4       5       6
G's
0       90%     73%     58%     42%     33%     19%     12%
1       86%     72%     56%     40%     31%     17%     10%
2       83%     71%     54%     38%     29%     15%     8%
3       79%     67%     52%     37%     27%     13%     6%
4       76%     64%     51%     35%     25%     11%     4%
5       72%     60%     49%     33%     24%     10%     3%
6       68%     56%     47%     31%     22%     8%      1%

The designer may choose any hull shape or streamlining for the ship.  The 
final payload percentage may be modified by the armor value of the ship, 
however.  Armor values listed in the table are T4 armor.

Armor Value     Payload
0               +5%
10              +4%
20              +3%
40              no change
60              -5%


Bridge

All spacecraft must have a bridge, which includes the ship's computers, 
sensors, communications gear.  Choose a bridge from the table below.  The 
volume of the bridge (in dtons) must be taken from the vessel's payload.

A minimal bridge occupies 5 dtons of payload, and may only be installed for 
ships 200 dtons or less.  This bridge provides only the most basic 
equipment.  Standard and Military bridges may be installed on either 
civilian or military vessels.  A "Military" bridge indicates a facility 
with advanced sensors, communications and (usually) a Combat Information 
Center, suitable for tactical visualization and fighting the ship.  A 
standard bridge occupies 10 dtons of payload space, while a military bridge 
occupies 20 dtons.

Crew and Passengers

Vessels 100 dtons and under can be operated by a crew of two (or even by 
one suitably skilled person in an emergency).  Larger vessels generally 
have four crewmembers, plus one per 30 dtons of non-payload (drive and 
equipment) space.  Crew quarters must be provided for the entire 
crew.  Civilian ships must allocate at least a small stateroom to each 
crewmember; officers are generally allotted a large stateroom.  Military 
vessels may use bunks for some or all enlisted crewmembers.

Passengers require staterooms; high passengers must be provided with a 
large stateroom.  An additional crewmember (a steward) must be provided for 
every eight high passengers carried.  Vessels must also carry one medic per 
120 crewmembers or 20 low passengers carried.

Bunks and low berths both occupy 1 dton of payload space.  Small staterooms 
require 2 dtons of payload, and large staterooms 4 dtons.

Cargo

Any amount of payload space may be designated for cargo.

Carried Craft

Smaller vessels may be carried by a larger ship.  A vessel in external 
grapples requires payload space equal to 150% of the carried 
craft.  Maintenance and repair of the carried craft generally requires vacc 
suit operations (greatly increasing the time and difficulty of the 
operation) while it is in the grapples.  Internal hangars and launch ports 
require payload space equal to 200% of the carried craft's volume.  Hangars 
permit normal maintenance and repair activities.  Spacious hangars require 
payload space equal to 400% of the carried craft, and provide enough space 
for easy maintenance and repair of the carried craft.

Weapons

A wide variety of weapons mounts may be fitted to vessels.  The space 
required for each weapon must come from the ship's payload, and quarters 
must be provided for the crew.  Choose weapons from the table below.  There 
is no specific limit on the number of weapons systems and defenses that may 
be installed in a military ship.  Civilian ships are generally limited to 1 
weapons system or defensive system per 100 dtons of total displacement, 
both as a matter of custom, and by engineering compromises required to keep 
hull costs under control.

TL      Weapon                  Space   Crew    Rating
11      Civilian Laser Turret   4       1       (+0) 1/2-0-0-0
15      Civilian Laser Turret   4       1       (+0) 1/2-2-2-2
  9      Missile Turret          6       1       2 missiles, +2
10      Missile Barbette        10      1       3 missiles, +3
11      Missile Barbette        9       1       3 missiles, +3
12      Missile Turret          6       1       2 missiles, +4
13      Missile Barbette        9       1       4 missiles, +4
14      Missile Turret          5       1       2 missiles, +5
14      Missile Barbette        8       1       5 missiles, +5
15      Missile Turret          4       1       2 missiles, +6
15      Missile Barbette        7       1       5 missiles, +6
11      Laser Turret            7       1       (+3) 1/2-0-0-0
11      Laser Turret Battery    45      1       (+3) 1/7-0-0-0
11      Laser Barbette          16      1       (+3) 1/2-2-0-0
11      Laser Barbette Battery  130     1       (+3) 1/9-8-5-3
12      Laser Turret            7       1       (+4) 1/2-0-0-0
12      Laser Turret Battery    45      1       (+4) 1/7-5-3-2
12      Laser Barbette          11      1       (+4) 1/2-2-0-0
12      Laser Barbette Battery  90      1       (+4) 1/9-9-5-3
13      Laser Turret            6       1       (+4) 1/2-2-0-0
13      Laser Turret Battery    40      1       (+4) 1/8-7-4-2
14      Laser Turret            6       1       (+5) 1/2-0-0-0
15      Laser Turret            5       1       (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
15      Laser Turret Battery    40      1       (+6) 1/9-9-9-9
9       PA-Gun Bay              240     3       (+2) 2/5-4-2-0
11      PA-Gun Bay              190     3       (+3) 1/7-6-5-0
10      Laser Bay               55      1       (+3) 1/2-0-0-0
12      Laser Bay               100     1       (+4) 1/6-6-6-5
12      PA-Gun Bay              185     2       (+4) 1/9-7-6-5
12      Meson Gun Bay           130     5       (+4) 2/3-2-0-0

Defenses

TL      Weapon                  Space   Crew    Rating
--      Sandcaster Turret       3       1       30 cans @ TL-12
12      Light Meson Screen      50      2       PV 7/6
12      Medium Meson Screen     330     11      PV 11/10
12      Heavy Meson Screen      1200    38      PV 13/12
12      Nuc Damper Barbette     7       1
15      Nuc Damper Turret       4       1


Other Facilities

Allocate any amount of payload space to other facilities, as desired.


Cost

Warships cost approximately MCr 1 per dton, and have no limit (other than 
available payload space) on the number of weapons they can mount.  Civilian 
ships cost between MCr 0.3 and MCr 0.5 per dton (depending on mission and 
configuration).  Armed merchants vessels generally run slightly higher 
(figure MCr 1 per turret weapon for "civilian" grade weapons).  The referee 
should adjust the cost based on personal preference and campaign factors.


Example:

The referee decides that she needs a long-range scoutship for her 
campaign.  A 150 dton hull is selected, and performance of maneuver 2 and 
jump 3 are required.  This ship will be built at TL-12 and will have 38% of 
it's space as payload.  She decides the ship does not need to be 
particularly heavily armored, so the hull is reduces to factor 20, 
increasing the payload by 3% to 41% (62 dtons).

The ship should have a decent sensor fit, so a military bridge is installed 
(20 dtons), even though a basic bridge could have been used.  An 
exploration crew of eight is chosen; two large staterooms are provided for 
the senior researchers, and six small staterooms for the crew: a total of 
20 dtons.

An 8 dton vehicle hanger is installed, which is designed to hold one or 
more grav vehicles (up to a total of 4 dtons).  Seven dtons is reserved for 
a TL-12 laser turret should the vessel need to be armed.  This leaves 7 
dtons of payload remaining; this is designated as a cargo area, to hold the 
mission's equipment and supplies.

Since this is an IISS ship, the referee decides that it is roughly 
comparable to an expensive civilian vessel.  A price of MCr 62 is (somewhat 
arbitrarily) assigned, bringing the vessel in at MCr 0.42/dton (not bad for 
Imperial contracting).


ObLegal: Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. 
Portions of this material are Copyright 1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises. 
The Trivial Design System was designed by Guy "wildstar" Garnett, and is 
Copyright 2002 Guy Garnett, all rights reserved.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:18:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:18:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:

>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>million troops.

An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
men. Still a large number, of course.

>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.

According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
field armies of 250,000 men each.

>A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
>defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the advantage
>shifts.

The source quoted above makes it 100 field armies. The same 50,000
battalions, in fact (but only because the populations are the same).

Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
45,000 battalions...

I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>

I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.

If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it available
on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author
selects.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 07:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:44:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Ring
Message-ID: <002901c1ae18$e313d360$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the irregular and occasional announcement of

the Traveller Ring:
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

Anyone who has a website with Traveller content and the willingness to
host the ring code someplace among those pages is welcomed, invited and
encouraged to join.

Our leading citizen (as of this moment) has dispatched 643 visitors to
his neighbors.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 08:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:11:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <OE63fKRfcjcMzfoV1qd00000548@hotmail.com>


>
> Some of us are doubtful about from how far away you can really support
> anything. There are logistical problems. If a battleship is stationed at
> Mora, how does Vland help maintain it. The classical way is that Vland
> gives Mora a check for the work, whereupon Mora does the work and then
> buys stuff from Vland for the amount. But this presupposes some degree of
> trade between the two worlds.
>
> Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
> build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
> maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
> Marches.

These are Imperial ships, right?  Perhaps the Imperium itself pays the cost.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 12:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 07:27:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Ring
In-Reply-To: <002901c1ae18$e313d360$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205072559.019ed330@mail.charter.net>

For a fairly complete listing of Traveller webrings surf over to:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

At 11:44 PM 2/4/2002 -0800, n2sami wrote:
>This is the irregular and occasional announcement of
>
>the Traveller Ring:
>http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info
>
>Anyone who has a website with Traveller content and the willingness to
>host the ring code someplace among those pages is welcomed, invited and
>encouraged to join.
>
>Our leading citizen (as of this moment) has dispatched 643 visitors to
>his neighbors.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence
& senseless acts of self-control.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb  4 18:15:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:15:18 -0000
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:
> > I was trying to work out the volume for a human-sized robot.
> > Using an old Dragon magazine article ("How Heavy is My Giant")
> > I worked out the average human being has a volume of about 4
> > cubic feet, or about 0.1 cubic meter.
> 
> Laugh.  Try about 3 cubic feet, .08 cubic meters (assumes 180
> lb/80 kg).  Density of humans is very close to water.

I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
dense as water (physically, not mentally).

However, this was  both  time-consuming  and  not  very  accurate
(there was a spillage factor) and I was wondering if anyone knows
a good  website  for  various  human  measurements  (average  and
standard deviation).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 10:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 04:57:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>




> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:01:53 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> David
> 
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600 David Shayne
> <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> > I apologize if I've mis-stated your position. My statement was
> > however based upon your initial response to the original question,
> >
> > Again my apologies if I have misrepresented your position. And
> > apologies in advance if the tone of this message comes across
> > as a bit snarky only you are yelling and everything.
> >
> > David Shayne
> 
> I'm sorry for yelling. Be as SNARKY as you like :~).
> My first post was not detailed enough, though my later posts were, and
> everyone knows how things get blown apart if a misstatement is made. Like
> my cannon vs canon blunder.

I think everybody has made the cannon/canon mistake at some point. I
know I have it's just too easy and canon is one of those words that my
spell checker at least continues to insist doesn't exist (along with
'snarky' and pretty much every gaming related term.)

There was the amusing incident when a gentlesophont was explaining how
he'd added Vulcans from Star Trek to his TU with the subject line
"Vulcans are cannon in MTU." (which lead to discussions of the efficacy
of firing Leonard Nimoy against incoming missiles IIRC) 

And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 01:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:43:07 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
References: <KBMDLJDJAABAEBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1ae32$6ad18b80$0600a8c0@imogen>

Shan Andy wrote:
> What I've found really interesting is the different mindset
> between people living in different law levels. Would someone
> from a low law level whose used to carrying a blade and a
> sidearm feel nervous in a place where he's not allowed to
> carry them any more? In fact would he feel more nervous than
> someone going the other way. As someone whose never even held
> a real gun that works I'm not sure, I think they might be
> comparable. I'd not really thought about the psychological/
> sociological effects of law levels and what it might do to
> people's sense of normal. But I think it would be interesting...
> 
> Thoughts anyone?

Strange as it may sound people appear to 'need' a  certain  level
of perceived risk in their lives (though  this  level  will  vary
from person to person).  People with a high  need  for  risk  but
living in a safe society will be attracted to extreme sports  and
other dangeous  voluntary  activities.  When  people  perceive  a
minor  change  in  risk  they  will  subconsciously  alter  their
behavior to return their risk to their preferred level.

For  Example:   Road  safety  experts  were  studying  a  certain
uncontrolled rail crossing in a wooded part of rural Saskatchwan.
They noted that drivers did not stop to  check  it  was  safe  to
cross.  As there were  only  2  trains  per  week  this  was  not
normally a problem but every so often there would be a collision.
So they cut back the tree line to improve  visibility  and,  they
thought, safety.  A year later they went back to check and  found
drivers were now approaching the crossing much faster ... and the
risk  of  an  accident  was  the  same  as  before.  Drivers  had
subconscously adjusted their driving habits to maintain the  same
level of perceived risk!

However, when you perceive a major change in risk then you become
either frustrated or afraid.  But this does not usually last over
the long term: if you visit some place more  dangerous  than  you
are used to it might be scary, but if  you  relocate  permanently
you'll grow accustomed to it.  (Within limits.)

So someone who is used to strong weapon control visiting an  area
of weak weapon control may percieve a greater risk 'cos  "weapons
= violence", yet at the same time some who is used to weak weapon
control (and therefore used to relying on themselves for  safety)
may also percieve a greater risk 'cos they've lost  that  control
over their own safety.  These perceptions may or may not be  true
(you'd have to compare crime statistics to genuinely know) but we
react to those perceptions regardless.  Metaphorically, its a bit
like "Which is the safer car: a 'manual'  that  give  the  driver
control, or an 'automatic' that gives the driver  less  to  worry
about?"

ObTrav: If someone relocated  from  their  homeworld  to  another
there would be a period of adjustment, sure, but most  PCs  don't
get the luxury  of  that  ...  they'd  routinely  experience  the
cultural equivalent of jet-lag.  To determine how much you'd have
to compare an individual world's law level against  that  of  the
average spaceway.

Now even though a PC may own a FGMP-15 they  would  not  normally
carry it around with them at all times.  So the question  becomes
what is the notional law level that your PCs experience (dictated
by  practicality  and  social   etiquette   rather   than   legal
restrictions)?

I'd want to check the numbers but off the top of my head  if  you
wanted a rule you could roll 2d Vs the *difference* in law  level
for the character to cope.  With adjustments based on experience.
Failure would result in a penalty to all reaction rolls while  on
the planet in question.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:07:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020204162952.00a2e030@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <3C60033C.B687E1A8@sitraka.com>

"Kelly St.Clair" wrote:
> 
> There's also the fact that if Oregon and Washington were to secede, it
> would be to get *away* from California.  (Speaking of regional culture and
> politics... :)

Well, while this if Funny Because It's True(tm), it's also a pretty good 
description of the odd state of modern identity construction that keeps the
US together, yet oh-so-far apart at the same time.

[Group of rowdy drinker in a Brubrek's]

Rowdy 1: Up Regina! For the Marches Cup!
Rowdy 2: Farc you! Up Mora! Mora Mora Moreee-Ahhh!
Rowdy 1: Regina! Burp!
Less Rowdy: I heard the Zhos have a team coming over the line to
            compete...
Rowdy 1: Farc the Zhos! This is an Impie game! 
Rowdy 2: Yeah! Up Strephon!
Rowdy 1: Up the Emperor! 
[Everyone drinks]

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 14:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:46:16 -0500
Subject: UPP Law Level vs Actual Laws (was Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
Message-ID: <F108NVBw0f0gh0eTZ2M0000dac2@hotmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>
>There will be some worlds that have high law level where
>people will arm themselves regardless of the law (PNG)
>and some where the idea is unthinkable.  This could be also
>true of low law level worlds.

If people on a planet frequently walk around with laser rifles
over their shoulders, and consider a submachinegun to be an
essential fashion accessory for the well-dressed sophont,
will an unenforced law on the books making all these weapons
technically illegal be what the IISS uses to determine the law
level?  Or will actual day-to-day law enforcement practices and
levels of police harrassment be much more important?

And what if the natives aren't affected by such laws, but
an offworlder who ignores them gets jailed almost immediately?

"But everyone else here has an assault rifle!  Why are you
jailing me for carrying a pistol?"
"They're all members of the Pryitan Defense Reserve, as are
nearly all adult citizens of Pryitan.  Reservists are required
to have a military weapon with them at all times.  Come on,
the penal shuttle is leaving soon."

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:17:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:17:57 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020204172549.00b20e40@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <3C6005B5.4020902@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Charles McKnight wrote:

> Hi Bruce!
> 
> Do you happen to have an XML export format available?  :-)
> 


I think I can do that, but I know diddly about XML. There are a bunch of 
people working on a Traveller XML implementation, perhaps one of them 
may wish to pipe up here...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:34:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:34:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
In-Reply-To: <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>; from daveshayne@ameritech.net on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C5FBAB1.D87A784C@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020205093454.B11525@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> 
> 
> And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
> was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
> although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
> chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."

Your spell checker okays `cannons' but not `canon'?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:28:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:28:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:04:39, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>My suggestion is that the Imperium defines murder as "the unsanctioned
>termination of a sapient life-form".

I like that; it's a workable Imperial standard, and allows enough wiggle 
room that there are plenty of dangerous situations for PCs to get mixed up in.

   --- Derek Wildstar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:33:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0800
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
> reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.

I'm interested in converting it to LaTeX, adding an index and all that
fun stuff.  Output available as DVI, PDF and PostScript.  Don't
suppose you've a copy of the text files lying about?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about whom it makes friends with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:23:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205082300.006ddad4@mindspring.com>

At 08:18 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>
>>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>>million troops.
>
>An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
>men. Still a large number, of course.

That's *roughly* 500 troops for each point. I was going on the figures I
gave in GF.  Unless i missed something in four months of research, the only
other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
Broadsword-class.

>>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
>
>According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
>of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
>field armies of 250,000 men each.

According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

>Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
>have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
>missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
>battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
>2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
>census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
>45,000 battalions...

The problems of a rough table.

>I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
>billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).

Pity you didn't mention that during playtesting.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:12:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:12:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205081228.006d5c8c@mindspring.com>

At 02:40 PM 02/04/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
>cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Macene/Rhylanor
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:43:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:43:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
In-Reply-To: <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8854BA0.1AFE%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/4/02 8:24 PM, "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships engaged in
> fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is somewhat sluggish
> even for a single large ship, to say nothing of a BatRon.

I would think that a modified version of Mayday (upped in scale) would suit
quite nicely.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:40:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
        OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system. 
Inputs:
        TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type 
(ground, air, spaceship, starship)
Outputs:
        Cost, Size

Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket 
Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like 
multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.

Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:15:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:15:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Opposed Landings
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012844779.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <3.0.3.32.20020203092829.006bf2c4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205081525.006dc9d4@mindspring.com>

At 09:46 AM 02/04/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>> I've been considering designing an assault cruiser with *massive* meson
>> shields and drop facilities for a battalion (in FFS2).  The cruiser drops
>> Sylean Rangers/Marine Commandos and then hunts those deep meson sites.
>
>Unfortunately, due to surface area constraints, there's an upper limit on
meson
>screens.  This is useful for hunting deep meson sites (they can't simply
ignore
>you) but the equivalent of a heavy spinal mount will penetrate without
>difficulty.

In that case, I'll try for the maximum surface area configuration, and
employ powerful ECM to keep from getting locked up too often.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"CALIFORNIA, a large country of the West Indies...
It is uncertain whether it be a peninsula or an 
island."
 -- Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1st Edition (1771)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 16:36:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:36:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202032102.g13L2Pl15083@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020205083636.006e0e58@mindspring.com>

At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:

>Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
>little bit of support.
>
>Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
>at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
>their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
>TTL15 infantryman).

OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish paen
to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that armies
work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.

As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use in
combat.

Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed and
ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be reckoned
with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't toe to
toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines are
hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum disruption.  In
fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in company sized forces
raiding the rear areas!

You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!

The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
with TO&Es for half the night.  (The bagpipes were his idea, mostly.  You
ever hear "Scotland the Brave" played by a drunken Marine at 0200?  My
neighbors have!)
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 17:37:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:37:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020205173729.66538.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

With the recent discussions regarding aging and the
proliferation of nobles, I began contemplating the UPP
and how it is generated.  I have some (many) ideas
that I am working on getting together, and once I do,
I will post the resulting document.  Before doing so,
I would like to get some input regarding the nature of
the characteristics.  One at a time, beginnign with
strength.  Here it is, I await comments and
discussion.

Paul

STRENGTH

Strength, in game terms, determines how much a
character can carry and influences the use of hand
combat (non-projectile) personal weapons.  Strength
grows with age and without intervention, will
eventually level out and finally begin to decline.

Strength Comparison Chart:
Value	Strength
  0     The character is unable to maintain
        consciousness.  Muscles will not
        respond at all.
  1     Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic,
        "Vegetable".  Very little muscular
        exertion.  No ability to apply any
        significant pressure.
  2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
        Ability to apply limited pressure
        to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
        overwhelmed by average strength.
  3     Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.
        Ability to apply normal pressure
        to move small objects (<100 lbs). 
  4     Pre-teen (10-12), Elderly.
        Ability to apply normal pressure to
        move household objects (100-250 lbs).
  5     Typical Young Teen (12-14), Weak Desk
        Jockey.  Limited ability to move
        heaviy objects (250+ lbs).
  6     Typical Middle Teen (14-16), Typical
        Desk Jockey.  Ability to move most
        household objects (100-250 lbs).
  7     Typical Older Teen (16-18), Local
        Gym Jock.  Ability to move heavy
        objects (250+ lbs) with limited
        exertion.
  8     Local Gym "Strong Man", Military
        "Desk" Jockey (read: Officer?).
  9     Typical College Athlete,  Military
        Grunt, Bouncer.
  A     Typical Professional Athlete,
        Trained Military Forces
  B     Military Elite Forces
  C     World's Strongest Man Competitor,
        Olympic Weight Lifting Competitor
  D     World's Strongest Man Champion,
        Olympic Weight Lifting Champion
  E     Near Super-human Strength.
  F     Super-human Strength.  Ability to
        lift vehicles, etc.








__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:05:35 -0000
Subject: [TML] Dragging back OT : Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGEANCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Sorry to resend this but I never saw it appear on the list so am resending
it.

 Hmm, very good point (threat level vs. Law level.)

To answer your question, if the law prevented me from carrying I would not
have _normally_ carried, the exceptions being a few trips where I knew there
would be a HIGH risk of armed violence.

 ISTR that the definition of Law Level was linked to the
 "chance/likelihood" of official intervention.  Or am I babbling again?

 Another sudden point, should extremely low law levels (poss.
 modified by gov type) give a chance of automatic skills in weapons.

 A RL for Ex: A friend of mine in Zimbabwe grew up on a farm in
 Bandit country, approx 6 hrs away from police/army response.  Due
 to the high threat of attack by armed troops he learnt to handle
 firearms at a _very_ early age.  (Please note all ages are
 approx, I'm working on 18 yr old memories here)
 i.e. Loading magazines was his very first memory (about 2-3yrs);
 by the age of 5 he could fire a light pistol (and was expected to
 if they were attacked).  At 8 he got rifle training every
 Saturday; and was proficient with a FN rifle by the age of 10ish.

 Just some On Topic musings right now.

(and no I'm not interested in discussing the RL events of this
time period in my life, anyone else's or the political/history
thereof, except in passing and On Topic, sorry)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> Sent: 04 February 2002 18:19
>
> Not just the Law Level, but the threat level.  If the law stopped
> you from
> legally carrying in South Africa or Zimbabwe, would you go out of
> town unarmed?
>
> Otherwise, your point is excellent.
>
> > At 05:28 PM 2/4/02 +0000, Peter Scarrott wrote:
> > >Having grown up in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the 70's and
> > early 80's
> > >I became used to carrying firearms whenever heading out of
> town.  However
> > >when I moved back to the UK I found no problems adapting to not
> > >wearing/carrying a gun most of the time.  On the other hand on
> > my holidays
> > >to both these countries I also _immediately_ adjusted to the different
> > >situation (amazing how the conditioning holds over time).
> > >
> > >I would imagine that this is how regular travellers and
> traders feel, you
> > >carry weapons appropriate to the Law Level of the world.
>
>  Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
> http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
> mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
>
> IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+
> as- so zh+ vi-
>      	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
>
> Luckily for us, there are always a few people who believe that
> reality and the laws of physics don't apply to them.   -
> Florence, Freefall 519.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:27:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The return of NERVA
In-Reply-To: <000801c1a927$f8f0bdb0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020205182715.50120.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com>

NASA Proposes Atomic Rocket Program
By PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer 

WASHINGTON (AP) - NASA (news - web sites) has proposed
spending almost a billion dollars over the next five
years to develop atomic-powered rockets that could
speed spacecraft across the heavens and
nuclear-reactors to energize outposts on distant
planets. 

In President Bush (news - web sites)'s 2003 federal
budget, released Monday, the space agency proposes to
spend about $46.5 million to begin developing nuclear
electric rockets and $79 million more to build
atomic-powered generators that can fly on spacecraft. 

Such atomic-driven energy systems, said Ed Weiler,
NASA's associate administrator for science, would
eventually free NASA from a dependance on chemical
rockets, which are relatively slow and clunky, in the
agency's exploration of distant worlds, such as
Jupiter's moons or the planet Pluto. 

Right now, NASA spacecraft are launched by a burst of
chemical rockets that burn for a few minutes to break
away from Earth's gravity. After that, said Weiler,
the spacecraft must drift across deep space toward
their target or whip around nearby planets to gain
speed, voyages that can take years. The spacecraft, in
most cases, are powered by solar cells that convert
sunlight to electricity. For distant planets, the
sunlight often is so dim that there is little
electricity for instruments. 

``That's like exploring the West using covered
wagons,'' said Weiler. 

He envisions rockets that use nuclear fission or
fusion that could fire for months, driving the
spacecraft to higher and higher speeds, and then
slowing the spacecraft when it approaches its target.
Such a technique could possibly halve the time of a
17-year voyage to Pluto, the only solar system planet
not yet visited. 

Weiler said that NASA has used nuclear-powered
generators to power 20 spacecraft in the past, but now
has only one such generator left in its inventory.
Using nuclear generators would free spacecraft from
their dependance on the sun for electrical power. 

Nuclear generators, Weiler said, could energize long,
detailed explorations of Mars, or power mobile
laboratories traveling the surface of the Red Planet. 

NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe said that nuclear
powered rockets and generators would help humans
``conquer the problems of distance and time'' in space
exploration. 

The proposal is sure to be opposed by some who fear
that a launch accident could cause a nuclear-powered
spacecraft to explode and possibly scatter radioactive
material around the globe. Some earlier launches of
atomic-powered craft attracted pickets, lawsuits and
protesters. 

Weiler said he believes it is possible to build
nuclear-powered rockets and generators that would not
present a hazard to Earth when they were launched into
space. 

``The number one issue would be safety,'' he said.
``Anything that we build would have to safely survive
the worst possible scenario, which would be a rocket
blowing up on the pad. 

``If you can't show that a system could survive that,
then don't talk to me,'' Weiler said he would tell
engineers. 


=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 19:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:05:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
References: <200202031632.g13GWYe13670@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1ae78$84a81100$44a45940@JohnDanielStrain>

Hey Stephen, save all your text to a doc on your comp and shoot it the me
after you are done, ok?

John Strain
missingjn@dixie-net.com

> From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> Subject: Landgrab: Vincennes Part 0:  Introduction
>
> Well, here are the first few installments at last - I've broken this
> down into several posts to avoid overwhelming the TML,


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 18:52:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:52:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
>
>I walk about half a mile from work (a college) to the train station down
>an isolated and unlit track. I hardly ever see anyone, let alone feel
>threatened by them... but the principal has expressed concern, and the
>site security staff have offered to walk with me. If I did feel unsafe I
>would like to have the option to take my nice big kukri along. As the law
>stands, I don't have that choice. Grrr.

Maybe you should carry a cane. It need not be steel shod.  Get a good
hardwood one, though.  From things you've said about yourself in the past, I
believe that you could learn basic hapkido cane techniques pretty quickly
from a good dojang.

--Glenn

P.S.  Others have mentioned this site before:  www.canemasters.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 19:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:02:06 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <3C602C2E.93A2EF93@premier.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
> 
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.

If you have access to a copy of _Imperial Squadrons_, that book has a
system for designing starship squadrons compatible with _Fifth Frontier
War_.

<<snip>>

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:50 GMT
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>Where would you locate a Depot?  

>a gas giant in system

I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
prepositioned tankers.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:53 GMT
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3c61355a.4665665@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> The classical way is that Vland
>gives Mora a check for the work, 

Why does it have to be so direct?  Vland pays Imperial taxes, the
Imperium uses the money to buy warships from Mora's shipyards and pay
the crews' salaries.  It's no different to taxes from Kansas City
being used to pay shipworkers in Norfolk.  Mora itself might get a tax
rebate in return for providing actual warships instead of just money.

>Another possibility is that Core and Vland and the other core sectors
>build ships and send them to Mora and Mora then concentrates on
>maintenance only, but we know from canon that warships are built in the
>Marches.

I tend to think there's some hard limit that makes shipbuilding a lot
more difficult than the raw figures in the various Traveller books
might imply.  (perhaps some critical bottleneck in materials.  How
rare is lanthanum?) Therefore, perhaps the Spinward Marches' shipyards
are already at full capacity, and the only way to get extra warships
is to make them in the Core and send them to Mora, as you suggest.

It also explains why so many ex-Navy personnel are footloose
Travellers instead of going back home and settling down - home is back
in Dadudashaag, and it's a long journey back from Macene/SM even if
the Personnel Bureau has given you a Middle Passage travel warrant...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:27:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1012940825.0.81412600@www.springmail.com>

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>Trivial Traveller Ship Design
>
>This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
>"Travelleresque" ship designs. 

<snip>

I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken, but I must admit I actually like it quite a bit.  While I wouldn't use it to design any long-term/important ships, it's almost exactly the sort of system I wanted for designing quick background color 'spear carrier' ships.  One area where the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives don't affect price? I suspect this could pretty easily be worked into an equation (avg. of M + J = x MCr/ton; x defined by drive number), but then again, considering the type of ships this system would be used for (random encounters, highport-filler, assorted other background color) maybe that really is more detail than we need.

Anyhow, thanks for posting this.  I'll definitely file it away and very well may end up using it.  Much more in tune with my 'on the fly' design needs than QSDS!

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 5: Planetology
Message-ID: <3c643ba9.6281389@post.demon.co.uk>

PLANETARY DATA

There are a total of eight inhabited planets in the Vincennes system,
not counting minor bases on asteroids and moons.  Vincennes itself has
11 billion sophonts, but Paven is also a major world, with 600 million
inhabitants.  The settlements on Sorbonne and Charonne both number
around the half-million mark, while the other establishments are much
smaller.


Short form (CT style)

Montmartre	X/5A1000-0	Ex  Eo  Ba
Sorbonne	D/5B056A-C	Ex  Ni
Charonne	X/8A3516-F	Ex  Eo  Ni
Oxford		(gas giant)
Harvard 	(gas giant)
Vincennes Belt	(planetoid belt)
Bologna		(gas giant)

VINCENNES	A/899AA6-G	Hi  In

Mushiiru 	X/201000-0	Ex  Va  Ba  
Paven		C/667837-F	Ri
Gemana  	X/8A1000-0	Ex  Eo  Ba
Khiikanu 	E/100234-F	Ex  Va  Lo  Ni
Madhala 	D/300306-F	Ex  Va  Lo  NI
Iishuldi   	X/GB3113-G	Ex  Eo  Lo  Ni
Labalaan 	C/AB1218-G	Ex  Eo  Lo  Ni
Amshida 	X/400000-0	Ex  Va  Ba


Long form (GT:First In style)

Montmartre (small, low-iron, terrestrial, desert world)

Diameter: 5,400 miles   Density: 4.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.23   Gravity: 0.49 G   
Local Year: 288 days   Day: 30 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Exotic, 0.20 (very thin)   Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (197 K)   Albedo: 0.1
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Sorbonne (small, low-iron, terrestrial, desert world)

Diameter: 5,200 miles   Density: 4.1 g/cc   
Mass: 0.21   Gravity: 0.49 G  
Local Year: 486 days (555 local days)   Day: 21 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.63 (thin)   Hydrographics: none
Frigid (187 K)   Albedo: 0.09
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 5   
Spaceport: II   Govt: Captive   CR: 6 (totalitarian)   GTL: 10

Sorbonne was founded as a penal colony, although it has since
developed some light industry and is also used for hostile-environment
military training.


Charonne (standard, low-iron, terrestrial, hostile/nitrogen)

Diameter: 7,800 miles   Density: 4.4 g/cc   
Mass: 0.76   Gravity: 0.78 G   
Local Year: 2.66 years   Day: 23 hours
2 large moons: Reims: 450 miles diameter, 45 PR orbit   Chartres: 350
miles diameter, 60 PR orbit
Atmosphere: Exotic, 1.41 (dense)   Hydrographics: 30%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, compatible biochemistry
Frigid (159 K)   Albedo: 0.28
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 5   
Spaceport: 0   Govt: Corporate   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

Charonne' primary income comes from the manufacture of biological
agents and chemicals too dangerous to produce on Vincennes itself.


Oxford (gas giant)
Diameter: 46,500 miles   Density: 1.0 g/cc   
Mass: 36.6   Gravity: 1.06 G   Local Year: 6.11 years   Day: 13 hours
10 small inner moons, 6 large moons, 5 small outer moons.  Prominent
ring system.

Harvard (gas giant)
Diameter: 68,000 miles   Density: 0.7 g/cc   
Mass: 80.0   Gravity: 1.09 G   
Local Year: 15.4 years   Day: 11 hours
8 small inner moons, 5 large moons, 3 small outer moons.  Ring system.

Vincennes Belt (planetoid belt)

Bologna (gas giant)
Diameter: 29,000 miles   Density: 1.4 g/cc   
Mass: 12.4   Gravity: 0.93 G   
Local Year: 112 years   Day: 17 hours
7 small inner moons, 4 large moons, 6 small outer moons.  Ring system.


Vincennes (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, Earthlike, ocean world)


Diameter: 8,000 miles   Density: 5.8 g/cc   
Mass: 1.08   Gravity: 1.06 G
Local Year: 25 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, polluted (high oxygen), 1.30 (dense)
Hydrographics: 93%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Torrid (339 K / 66C) to Very Cold (253 K / -20C)   Albedo: 0.42
Resources: very rich +2   MSPR:  6   PR: 10   
Starport: V   Govt: Dictatorship   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 13

See next post for full details.


Mushiiru (tiny, silicate, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 2,500 miles   Density: 3.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.02   Gravity: 0.17 G   
Local Year: 228 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, incompatible biochemistry
Torrid (326 K)   Albedo: 0.15
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Paven (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, Earthlike, ocean world)

Diameter: 6,200 miles   Density: 5.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.43   Gravity: 0.71 G
Local Year: 436 days (476 local days)   Day: 22 hours
2 small moons:  Gavot: 10 miles, 3 PR   Sarab: 60 miles, 7 PR
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, 0.85 (standard)   Hydrographics: 66% 
Ecosphere: complex animals, identical biochemistry
Cool (294 K / 21C)   Albedo: 0.31
Resources: average   MSPR: 9   PR: 7   
Spaceport: III   Govt: Oligarchy   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

See next post for details.


Gemana (standard, medium-iron, terrestrial, hostile/nitrogen)

Diameter: 7,900 miles   Density: 4.9 g/cc   
Mass: 0.88   Gravity: 0.88 G   
Local Year: 684 days   Day: 14 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Exotic, 1.06 (standard)   Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, nearly identical biochemistry
Cold (271 K)   Albedo: 0.26
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Khiikanu (tiny, low-iron, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 1,000 miles   Density: 3.1 g/cc   
Mass: 0.001   Gravity: 0.07 G   
Local Year: 3.51 years   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (186 K)   Albedo: 0.1
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 2   
Spaceport: I   Govt: Oligarchy   CR: 2 (free)   GTL: 12

This insignificant rockball was the site of a Rule of Man system
defence installation, now nothing but ruins.  The planet is governed
by a clique of hereditary nobles, who claim descent from the original
Terran Navy personnel  -- although most historians *seriously* doubt
the truth of this!  Most of these nobles actually spend most of their
time on Paven.


Madhala (tiny, low-iron, terrestrial, rockball)

Diameter: 3,100 miles   Density: 3.8 g/cc   
Mass: 0.04   Gravity: 0.27 G   
Local Year: 7.67 years   Day: 26 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (143 K)   Albedo: 0.11
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 3   
Spaceport: II   Govt: anarchy   CR: 4 (controlled)   GTL: 12

Madhala has numerous very small deposits of valuable ore, too
scattered for large-scale commercial exploitation but enough to
provide a living for several thousand independent miners.  Most are
recent immigrants to the Vincennes system.


Iishuldi (standard, silicate, terrestrial, hostile/ammonia)

Diameter: 16,500 miles   Density: 1.5 g/cc   
Mass: 2.45   Gravity: 0.57 G  
Local Year: 18.7 years   Day: 14 hours
2 large moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.57 (thin)    Hydrographics: 30%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (105 K)   Albedo: 0.59
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 1   
Spaceport: 0   Govt: Corporate   CR: 2 (free)   GTL: 13

This planet is home to a corporate-owned research facility.  Little is
known of its activities.


Labalaan (standard, silicate, terrestrial, hostile/ammonia) 

Diameter: 10,200 miles   Density: 1.7 g/cc   
Mass: 0.66   Gravity: 0.40 G   
Local Year: 48.9 years   Day: 720 hours
No moons
Atmosphere: Corrosive, 0.48 (very thin)    Hydrographics: 10%   
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Frigid (79 K)   Albedo: 0.59
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 2   
Spaceport: III   Govt: Corporate   CR: 5 (repressive)   GTL: 13

The sole reason for settlement on Labalaan is its spaceport.  A joint
venture between the Vincennes government and a private consortium,
this spaceport is intended to relieve the mounting pressure on
Vincennes' main starport by diverting transient traffic away from the
main spacelanes.  Extensive handling and repair facilities for bulk
freighters and LASH tenders are under construction, after which the
starport is expected to reach Class IV (CT: Class B).  The consortium
is using convict labour for the construction work, accounting for the
high law level (and the many delays to construction).


Amshida (tiny, silicate, terrestrial, icy rockball)

Diameter: 4,100 miles   Density: 1.3 g/cc   
Mass: 0.03   Gravity: 0.12 G
Local Year: 133 years   Day: 19 hours
1 large moon
Atmosphere: none      Hydrographics: none
Frigid (48 K)   Albedo: 0.51
Resources: average   MSPR: 0   PR: 0


Next:  the detailed write-up of Vincennes and Paven's physical
conditions.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:22:10 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 6: Vincennes and Paven
Message-ID: <3c653dcd.6829242@post.demon.co.uk>

PHYSICAL DATA



VINCENNES PLANETARY DATA

Diameter: 8,000 miles (12,850 km)   Density: 5.8 g/cc   
Mass: 1.08   Gravity: 1.06 G
Local Year: 25 days   Day: tide-locked
No moons
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, polluted (high oxygen), 1.30 (dense)
Hydrographics: 93%
Ecosphere: complex animals, partially compatible biochemistry
Torrid (339 K / 66C) to Very Cold (253 K / -20C)   Albedo: 0.42


Vincennes is a medium iron world, very slightly larger than Terra.
Its atmosphere is oxygen-nitrogen, with a density of 1.3
Terran-normal.  The oxygen level in the atmosphere is about 35%,
nearly twice that of Earth.  This causes irritation and drying to
exposed skin in humans (especially the eyes, lungs and mucous
membranes) and can lead to hyperventilation.  Facemasks and
respirators are therefore recommended when venturing outside a
controlled environment.  Corrosion and flammability are also
ever-present hazards on the world.

93% of the planet's surface is covered by water.  This is rich in
single-celled life that uses photosynthesis, giving the ocean a
distinctive green-blue tint and also accounting for the high oxygen
level.  More complex aquatic lifeforms are also plentiful, feeding on
the plantlife and each other.

The planet has a single continent, with an area of 12.1 million sq km
(about the size of South America).  This is mostly low-lying, with
heavily eroded hills and extensive swamplands.  Mosses and
bindweed-type plants are the only native life on land.  The continent
is in the northern (bright face) hemisphere.

Vincennes is tidally locked to its primary, with an orbital period of
24.9 standard days.  The sun Ember itself orbits around Undraczech
once every 110.5 standard days.  This means that the planet's bright
face has two suns in the sky roughly half the time, and one sun the
rest of the time.  The dark face has a day/night cycle, as Vincennes'
orbit brings Undraczech into view for half of the 25-day "year".

Vincennes has no moons.  Ember takes up about 2.9 degrees of the sky
(six times the diameter of Sol as seen from Terra).  Undraczech
("Undie" to irreverent locals) is about half that size (1.8 degrees),
but brighter.  Shadows on the world appear soft and blurry;  when both
suns are in the sky it is difficult to discern a shadow at all.  Note,
however, that most Vincenniens live in artificial habitats lit by
white light, which ignore local conditions and operate on a
Terran-standard 24-hour day.  

Vincennes suffers from dramatic fluctuations in temperature as its
orbit around Ember takes it closer or further from Undraczech.
Average temperatures on the dark face vary between 253 K (-20 C) and
295 K (22 C) over a 25-day period, while on the bright face summer
temperatures can reach 339 K (66 C).  A vast oceanic icecap covering
half the planet forms then melts again on a regular basis, dumping
huge amounts of thermal energy into the local weather systems.  The
result is almost constant violent storms, sweeping right around the
planet with no land masses to halt their progress.  Only for a brief
period in mid-winter does Vincennes know calmer weather - this is
referred to by the locals (somewhat perversely) as "springtime".  In
G:FI terms, Vincennes has a weather factor of 18 (11 in winter).
Weather can be determined using the following table:

Weather (3D):	   "Springtime"		Rest of Year
Violent Storm		3-4		   3-9
Severe Storm		5-7		   10-12
Storm		   	8-10		   13-15
Windy		   	11-13		   16-18
Calm		   	14-18		   Never


PAVEN PLANETARY DATA

Because of its importance in the system, Paven is also detailed in
full here.

Diameter: 6,200 miles   Density: 5.0 g/cc   
Mass: 0.43   Gravity: 0.71 G
Local Year: 436 days (476 local days)   Day: 22 hours
2 small moons:  Gavot: 10 miles, 3 PR   Sarab: 60 miles, 7 PR
Atmosphere: Oxygen/Nitrogen, 0.85 (standard)   Hydrographics: 66% 
Ecosphere: complex animals, identical biochemistry
Cool (294 K / 21C)   Albedo: 0.31  Axial tilt: 15 degrees


Paven is a medium iron world, somewhat smaller than Terra and slightly
less dense.  Its atmosphere is oxygen-nitrogen, slightly thinner than
Earth's but breathable without artificial aid.  About two-thirds of
the planet is covered by water:  from space this appears as a
patchwork of sea and land with many islands and oceans.  About six
landmasses are large enough to be given the status of continents.

The planet enjoys a temperate climate, with average temperatures just
one degree lower than those of (pre-global warming) Terra.  The flora
and fauna of Paven are rich and diverse.  Many species show
exceptionally close parallels to Terran lifeforms, leading to the
widely held theory that the world was terraformed during the Second
Imperium.   Much of Paven's surface is cultivated, and food is its
major export.

Paven has two moons, but they are not visible to the naked eye and
cause no significant tides.  Its sun takes up about 1.0 degree of the
sky (twice the diameter of Sol as seen from Terra).  

Paven has a weather factor of 10, the same as Terra.  Weather can be
determined using the following table:

Weather (3D):
Violent Storm	3
Severe Storm   	4-6
Storm		7-9
Windy		10-12
Calm		13-18 


Next:  Government and law.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Metromemetics.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:20:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1ae93$489c1a60$2149cfa9@vaio>

I have a quick and dirty system based on just two factors: tonnage and
ship's purpose. Probably too simple for what you're looking for, but
inspired by the same source (Pocket Empires). Something like this:

Attack = sqrt(tonnage) x role modifier*

* Role modifers:
Military war vessel = x5
Provincial war vessel = x4
Scout = x3
Standard commercial = x2
Transport/freighter only = x1

For example, a 900-ton Imperial warship would have an attack value of 150
(square root 900 = 30, times 5 = 150).

Defense = same thing, but ruling some commercial ships may have extra armor
to merit a x3 modifier.

I then use the ratio difference between the attack and defense as a dice
modifier for fast (role-play) outcomes.

- Stanton at www.travellerlarp.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <jo_grant@us.ibm.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:40 AM
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system


> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
>
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely based on Pocket
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system for an Imperium like
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere mortals.
>
> Jo
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:21:54 GMT
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Vincennes Part 4: Astrography
In-Reply-To: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3c5eb94a.216641@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3c633ba2.6274664@post.demon.co.uk>


STELLAR DATA

ASTROGRAPHY

Vincennes is a trinary star system.  The planet Vincennes orbits the
star Ember.  Ember, in turn, orbits Undraczech.  This binary pair is
accompanied by the distant companion Guazhirniim.  The system is 7.5
billion years old.  

The layout of this system is somewhat unusual, and defies conventional
theories of planetary formation.  However, despite the best efforts of
thousands of hopeful prospectors over the centuries, not the slightest
trace of Ancient involvement has ever been detected anywhere in the
system...


Undraczech
K7 V (orange dwarf)
Temperature: 4,200 K  Luminosity: 0.115  Mass: 0.6  Radius: 0.006 AU

Ember
Separation: close (0.4 AU); eccentricity 0.05 (0.38 AU to 0.42 AU).
M7 V (red dwarf)
Temperature: 2,800 K  Luminosity: 0.004  Mass: 0.11  Radius: 0.002 AU

Guazhirniim
Separation: distant (55 AU); eccentricity 0.11 (49 AU to 61 AU).
G1 V (yellow dwarf)
Temperature: 5,960 K  Luminosity: 1.22  Mass: 1.04  Radius: 0.01 AU


Note that it would take a 1G ship three weeks to travel between the
Undraczech/Ember sub-system (where Vincennes is located) and the
Guazhirniim sub-system (which contains the world of Paven).  For this
reason most inter-system travel is done via jump drive.



SYSTEM DATA

Undraczech
Inner Limit: 0.12 AU  Life Zone: 0.32 AU to 0.44 AU   
Snow Line: 1.7 AU   Outer Limit: 24 AU
100-diameter limit: 1.2 AU
Ember creates a forbidden zone at 0.35 to 0.45 AU.
Base orbital radius: 0.42 AU.   Bode constant 0.3

Orbit	AU 	Zone		Planet		Type 
(1)	0.4 	Life		(Ember)		Companion star 
2	0.72 	Middle		Montmarte	Terrestrial	
3	1.02 	Middle		Sorbonne	Terrestrial 
4	1.62 	Middle		Charonne	Terrestrial 
5	2.82 	Outer		Oxford		Gas giant 
6	5.22 	Outer		Harvard		Gas giant 
7	10.02 	Outer		Vincennes Belt	Planetoid belt 
8	19.62 	Outer		Bologna		Gas giant 

Ember
Inner Limit: 0.022 AU  Life Zone: 0.06 AU to 0.08 AU   
Snow Line: 0.32 AU   Outer Limit: 4.4 AU
100-diameter limit: 0.4 AU (entirely within Undraczech's 100-diameter
limit)
Undraczech creates a forbidden zone beyond 0.127 AU.
Base orbital radius: 0.077 AU.   Bode constant 0.3

Orbit	AU 	Zone	Planet		Type 
1	0.08 	Life	Vincennes	Terrestrial 

Guazhirniim
Inner Limit: 0.21 AU  Life Zone: 1.1 AU to 1.4 AU   Snow Line: 5.5 AU
Outer Limit: 44 AU
100-diameter limit: 1.0 AU
Base orbital radius: 0.74 AU.   Bode constant 0.4

Orbit	AU 	Zone		Planet		Type 
1	0.74 	Inner		Mushiiru	Terrestrial
2	1.14 	Life		Paven		Terrestrial 
3	1.54 	Middle		Gemana		Terrestrial 
4	2.34 	Middle		Khiikanu	Terrestrial 
5	3.94 	Middle		Madhala		Terrestrial 
6	7.14 	Outer		Iishuldi	Terrestrial 
7	13.54 	Outer		Labalaan	Terrestrial 
8	26.34 	Outer		Amshida		Terrestrial 


Next:  Planetological details.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:58:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <20020205205839.78931.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you
> really need a
> justification, then put it down to equipment,
> taining an morale, and use in
> combat.

FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
 I know they had support from locals and other people,
but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:37:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050737320.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk> <3c61355a.4665665@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C604297.FF338AE8@sitraka.com>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> It also explains why so many ex-Navy personnel are footloose
> Travellers instead of going back home and settling down - home is back
> in Dadudashaag, and it's a long journey back from Macene/SM even if
> the Personnel Bureau has given you a Middle Passage travel warrant...

Maybe this is how the office of Imperial Eugenics keeps the gene pool
healthy... retire Naval personell as young as possible never drop off
someone who retires less than 2 sectors away from their homeworld. I mean,
sooner or later you'll end up shaking hands "hiver-style".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:10:28 +1100
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki> <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020206081028.B18558@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> I'm interested in converting it to LaTeX, adding an index and all
> that fun stuff.  Output available as DVI, PDF and PostScript.  Don't
> suppose you've a copy of the text files lying about?

I've got them concatenated with Larsen's original sourrounding
comments intact.  Look at 

  http://freeman.little-possums.net/~tim/woco.txt

I also have the original emails within easy reach, but not on my
website.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:57:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020205.125754.-114985.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:37:29 -0800 (PST) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>  One at a time, beginning with
> strength.  Here it is, I await comments and discussion.
> 
> Strength Comparison Chart:
> Value	Strength
>   0     The character is unable to maintain
>         consciousness.  Muscles will not
>         respond at all.

i've never liked the "unconscious" aspect, and having STR-1 I see this a
bit clearer than most. True, an exhausted soldier could pass out, or even
become unconscious, but I personally see a marked decline first followed
by a self sacrifice, rather than slowing down the unit. I know, "never
leave a man behind," but STR-0 goes way beyond that. To me the soldier
would be near death as it is for STR-0. It's a Command decision.

>    2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
>         Ability to apply limited pressure
>         to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
>         overwhelmed by average strength.

Perhaps 2 should read <50 lbs, except for Super Boy. I'm not bed ridden
either, yet weaker then 2,  When the muscles won't respond, then you're
bed ridden.

Turokan.


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:03:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:03:49 +1100
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
References: <200202032057.MAA18703@molly.iii.com> <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020206080349.A18558@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Density of humans is very close to water.

> I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
> bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
> with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
> had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
> dense as water (physically, not mentally).

The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.

I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
I didn't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:01:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Supporting the domain of Deneb from the core
Message-ID: <20020205210131.47552.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> 
> I tend to think there's some hard limit that makes
> shipbuilding a lot
> more difficult than the raw figures in the various
> Traveller books
> might imply.  (perhaps some critical bottleneck in
> materials.  How
> rare is lanthanum?) Therefore, perhaps the Spinward
> Marches' shipyards
> are already at full capacity, and the only way to
> get extra warships
> is to make them in the Core and send them to Mora,
> as you suggest.


Could be that the Imperium is subsidising the
construction to help keep the jobs there.  


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:23:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:23:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and
> with that population to be self sufficient enough to
> not need trade?

It's been inhabited nowhere near as long as earth, and has only twice the
population; resources are unlikely to be a significant problem.  We don't
really know what industrial base is required to efficiently produce TL 12
goods, but if one TL 12 pop-A world can't manage it, three (Trin, Vincennes,
and Mora) probably can't either, and trade from the central imperium is very
limited.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:27:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:27:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <20020205205839.78931.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C604E34.4080205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Paul Walker wrote:
>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>
>>As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you
>>really need a
>>justification, then put it down to equipment,
>>taining an morale, and use in
>>combat.
>>
> 
> FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
> actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
>  I know they had support from locals and other people,
> but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.
> 

Mostly Special Forces troops, Green Beret's whose mission is cadre 
training and command of existing local forces. The Northern Alliance did 
the fighting, but they had decent CCC, tactics, and logistical support, 
which they didn't have before.

Of course, overwhelming air superiority never hurt.

"Uhh 'Stennis'? There's an arty position right here" paints with laser 
designator "that's giving us a hassle. Could you take care of it please?"

(wait 1/2 hour)

Screeeee--BOOOOOM! as a F18 drops a 2000lb bomb down arty's muzzle.

"Thanks Stennis!"

;-)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:31:08 -0700
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>Where would you locate a Depot?  
>>
> 
>>a gas giant in system
>>
> 
> I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
> only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
> facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
> it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
> would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
> prepositioned tankers.
> 
> Stephen
> 

Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding 
centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel 
source.

Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.

They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest 
Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in 
fuel tankers.

Then again, no way they're going to be easily invaded, either.

If you think an opposed landing on a beachhead would be bad, try doing 
it *on* an enemy base!!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 21:14:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:14:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
Message-ID: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

OK, the recent discussions about Trin's rebellion and
the probobal/potential results have gotten me
thinking.  Granted I'm not using my best gifts when I
do that, but here are my thoughts.

Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and
with that population to be self sufficient enough to
not need trade?  I have a hard time believing there
are plentious mineral sites as well as plentious
agriculture fields.  Something has got to give?

Now, before anyone jumps too hard on my case, I'm
trying to justify this in my mind with what I've read
here on the list.  My collection of source material is
VERY small, but other than the brief mention of the
rules in Gurps: Free Trader, I haven't seen anything
to answer these questions.

So, how is it that this Hi-Pop world is so self
sufficient (BTW, can someone post the UPP for Trin)

Thanks,
Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:11:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:11:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <OF8F993968.039C3935-ON85256B57.005B0F26@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020205221135.12572.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>


--- jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Hiya Folks,
>         OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design
> system. 
> Inputs:
>         TL, Attack, Defense (Maneuver), Carrying
> Capacity, Jump, Type 
> (ground, air, spaceship, starship)
> Outputs:
>         Cost, Size
> 
> Yep, that's it. I have one, which I think is loosely
> based on Pocket 
> Empires, but if people have clever ideas, I'd like
> to see them.
> For the curious, it's more of a chit-design system
> for an Imperium like 
> multi-player on-line war game. Sort of TCS for mere
> mortals.
> 
> Jo
> 


 Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
joy to play.
 Damn, now I want to find a copy.

Whopper

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: QSDS
Message-ID: <200202051716_MC3-F0BE-4EC2@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:54, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>The one thing that has always got me,  though, is the layout.

OK, can you be more specific?  I've regretted that I never re-arranged the 
columns in the tables to be in a consistent order; that'll definitely get 
fixed if there is ever a new version.  What else needs to be updated?

Do you prefer tables all together in one spot (at the end, FF&S2 style; in 
a separate book Striker style, or in the middle, High Guard style)?  Or do 
you prefer to have the tables intermingled with the rules?

>I still think that treating the different levels of complexity as seperate

>projects is a mistake.

I agree, actually.  After FF&S2, I'd always planned to go back and revise 
QSDS to be fully compliant with the revised design system.  Not to knock 
Dave's effort, but I've never been fully convinced of the utility of SSDS -

it seems to me to be too complex for casual use, but not detailed or 
complete enough to satisfy the gearhead.


   --- Derek Wildstar<

1. I would love to be updated. 
2. I agree the columns should be in consistent. It's a little thing, but
*extremely* helpful. 
3. I personally like Tables mixed with rules. Same rules as in computer
programming. Put the data as close to where it's first needed as possible. 
4. I strongly disagree with this philosophy. Simpler does not mean
"Same-Only-Less-of". Simpler means DIFFERENT. Geared toward only those
effects which have the most immediate bearing on play. In other words,
Monopoloy is not a "simpler" version of  "The Real Estate Market". It's an
entirely different game.
5. I do agree with you about SSDS, though. 

>>>>>I was annoyed with QSDS for the lack of hulls under 100 dtons.

6. I feel the same way. I dont want *two* starship design systems. I want
one system - only better. 

>>>>That would be easier, but would break compatibility with FF&S. 

7. I personally couldn't care less about compatiblity with FF&S. If it were
done well, I'd use it. Since it's not, I'm looking for something to
completely replace it. 

>>>>The biggest question in my mind has to do with surface area.  QSDS
(like 
>>>>FF&S2) does not impose the arbitrary CT limit of one hardpoint (turret)
per 
>>>>100 dtons of displacement.

8. An interesting idea and a pretty good compromise. I'd personally rather
have tonnage work for this. In other words, you simply cannot fit the power
plant and weaponry required but I realize that's easier said than done. 

>>>>That's certainly another possibility.  This may be just the gearhead in
me, 
>>>>but I prefer a design system that works in "real" units (such as dtons
and 
>>>>Mw) rather than "spaces" and "energy points".

9. Yes, that is the gearhead in you. But that's why the system that will
work for me/us *non-gearheads* isn't/shouldn't resemble the gearhead
system. 

>>>>Sure!  I don't know if I will get time and motivation to fully revise
QSDS, 
>>>>but it is looking that way right now - particularly if there is a
chance 
>>>>that people will be willing and able to use it.

10. Definittely! Whatever criticism I might have, I think its the closest
thing to idea that I've seen so far. 

>>>>Track surface area in units of "hardpoints". Have a big table of how
many
>>>>you get per size. sensors and weapons use hardpoints. power plants
might
>>>>be tracked in some different way (with a table giving the maximum hull
size
>>>>a given power plant can fit in? or the maximum power plant a given hull
can
>>>>take?) or the same way.
>>>>Bruce

11. Yeah, something like that...

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EB7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Long Way Home (published by BITS)

or

Long Way Home / Gateway (published by Imperium Games)<

Thanks! So far thats:

1. Ghost Ship, Travellers's Digest  #14, p. 13
2. Long Way Home (published by BITS)/Long Way Home / Gateway (published by
Imperium Games)<
3. Judges Guild, Waspwinter
4. UNCONFIRMED: There was one in a late-MT/early-TNE Challenge Magazine. It
might have been 
the special horror issue but I'm not sure and I can't find the magazine. 
Someone else might remember more.

Anyone able to narrow down possible  issue number for #4?




Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Alien Species
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EBA@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I was wondering if there were any cannonical
references to an insectoid minor race in Traveller. 
The Hiver aren't realy insectoid, and neither are the
Droyne.  So there aren't any Major* Races that are
insectoid.  Are there any minor races.
<

I never liked this myself, so I use an insect race in place of the K'kree
and use the K'kree culture for them. In most respects, the K'kree make
pretty good bugs!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Random Name Generator for Windows
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EBD@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
>>>>Question: would such a random name generator be of interest to anyone
here?

YES YES YES it would! I have many similar databases I use extensively for
campaigns and I'm always looking for more. I'd love to arrange a trade if
your intersted. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <200202051716_MC3-F0BE-4EC3@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to
their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have
the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.<

It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>

I've decided to give up programming drudgery and become a space pirate.

What is the best source of information on how to become a pirate? How do I
board other ships? Etc.?

Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
in the canon?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:36:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:36:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] TWG & Others?
Message-ID: <B8859E89.1B92%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

Do any of he other "old" groups still exist, like the TWG, etc.?

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:27:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:27:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205172406.00b10910@mail.qrc.com>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
>OK, I'm looking for a _really_ simple design system.  Inputs: TL, Attack, 
>Defense (Maneuver), Carrying Capacity, Jump, Type (ground, air, spaceship, 
>starship) Outputs: Cost, Size

Hmmm ... take a look at the Trivial Ship Design sequence I posted last 
night.  I'm already thinking that I could simplify the weapons selection, 
which would make things easier.

I suppose for your point of view, you could reverse it (invert the 
percentages in the payload matrix): choose the payload you want, choose 
performance, and then multiply by the factor in the table to get ship size.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:40:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:40:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205173831.00a78b18@mail.charter.net>

First you need a parrot.

Preferably one of those mechanical parrots from the Dr. Who episode Douglas 
Adams (RIP) wrote (The Planet Pirates I think).

A plank mounted outside the airlock would probably be overkill, but 
definately go with the parrot.

At 05:15 PM 2/5/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
>I've decided to give up programming drudgery and become a space pirate.
>
>What is the best source of information on how to become a pirate? How do I
>board other ships? Etc.?
>
>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
>in the canon?
>
>Michael
>0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
>ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:46:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'll "illustrate" it ;)  I've got the digital models (Sulaco, APC, dropship), and the costuming group I'm part of has all the costumes (grunts, smartgunner, pilot) :D
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Taylor [mailto:MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:16 PM
To: INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Alien n


Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Couldn't the writers have figured out a better way to accomplish
> the "strand Ripley and a small group on the surface and leave them up to
their
> own devices."

The obvious one is to have the drop ship return to the Sulaco and then have
the 
group's radio get melted by and alien.<

It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 22:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:53:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] _Ground Forces_
In-Reply-To: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202052313250.12401-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>At 08:18 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
>>Douglas Berry writes:
>>
>>>A single Keith-class Transport will carry an entire brigade, along with all
>>>it's equipment.  The transport squadrons in Fifth Frontier War carried
>>>combat-ready Field Armies.  That's about fifty Keiths, and around a half
>>>million troops.
>>
>>An Assault Squadron in FFW can carry 600 points of troops. That's 300,000
>>men. Still a large number, of course.
>
>That's *roughly* 500 troops for each point.

A 66% discrepancy is a tad more than what I get out of the word 'roughly'.

>I was going on the figures I gave in GF.

And I was pointing out that the figures you gave in GF didn't jibe 100%
with previously published material.

>Unless I missed something in four months of research, the only
>other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
>Broadsword-class.

What does that have to do with the number of troops an AsRon can carry?
FFW didn't imply that an AsRon consisted of 50 Keith-class transports, it
implied that an AsRon could carry 300,000 men and not 500,000. Something
it took me 10 minutes of research with the FFW rules to find out.

>>>The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming that
>>>there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix in
>>>5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
>>
>>According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
>>of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
>>field armies of 250,000 men each.
>
>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

Doesn't GF's Unified Army of Mora correspond to FFW's troops from Mora
available for off-world operations? If not, I've seriously misread what
you said in GF.

>>Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
>>have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
>>missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
>>battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
>>2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
>>census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
>>45,000 battalions...
>
>The problems of a rough table.
>
>>I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
>>billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).
>
>Pity you didn't mention that during playtesting.

A true, though not especially fruitful, observation.

 At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:

>>Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
>>little bit of support.
>>
>>Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine regiment
>>at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more if you think
>>their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat than a standard
>>TTL15 infantryman).
>
>OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish paen
>to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that armies
>work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.

I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
GM tool. What fun is it for a typical bunch of PC's that the Marines show
up? They are not another obstacle to be overcome, they are a 'game over,
no saving throw' plot device. Which means that unless I actually run a
Naval campaign some day, all that nifty material about Marines in GF is of
no Earthly use to me. They're certainly never going to show up in any game
of mine except as the aforementioned Game Over _deus ex machina_. And for
that I really don't need a TO&E.

>As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
>justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use in
>combat.

That's just it, Doug. In FFW the marines are not outstandingly effective.
They're good, but unless each marine regiment represents a much smaller
number of men than a regular regiment, they're not more effective than
any other TL15 regiment of the same training standard (Mind you, there
may not be many TL15regiments of the same training standard around). You
didn't just not follow FFW slavishly, you ignored everything it implied
completely. Fair enough, that was your privillege as the author. But don't
tell me I can't point that out if I want to.

>Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
>units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
>strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
>trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed and
>ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be reckoned
>with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't toe to
>toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines are
>hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum disruption.  In
>fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in company sized forces
>raiding the rear areas!

That would be perfectly acceptable if a Marine regiment was _smaller_ than
a standard regiment. You made it twice the size of one.

>You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!

No, and as I've said before, I think the forces in FFW are scaled down.
But be that as it may, no matter how effective the Marines are, there just
aren't enough of them to make much of a dent in the defenses of a
high-population world.

>The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
>canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
>JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
>with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
>with TO&Es for half the night.

In other words you disregarded some of the available evidence. Am I somehow
barred from pointing that out?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:13:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <200202051715_MC3-F0BE-4EC0@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20020205231314.50430.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com>


> What is the best source of information on how to
> become a pirate? How do I
> board other ships? Etc.?
> 
> Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in
> the Imperium" anywhere
> in the canon?

There ought to be....any takers?

=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:05:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDEENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
>
>
>>Where would you locate a Depot?
>>
>
>>a gas giant in system
>>
>
> I'd suggest a system with no gas giant might be even better.  If the
> only way to refuel is to have control of the starport and its
> facilities, then an attacking fleet has to be entirely confident that
> it can defeat the defenders before jumping in.  Hit and run raids
> would not be a problem, unless the raiders can stage in or use
> prepositioned tankers.
>
> Stephen
>

Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding
centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel
source.

Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.

They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest
Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in
fuel tankers.

Then again, no way they're going to be easily invaded, either.

If you think an opposed landing on a beachhead would be bad, try doing
it *on* an enemy base!!!


>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yeppers.  Think Korvia (SP?) from Doc EE Smith's Lensmen books.  Knowledge
of the existence of the fleets and manpower of even an 'Arsenal' Spinward
Marches would dramatically affect the planning of any would be foe.

If for example it were sited on Ivendo, Lanth 0909, the Sword Worlds have to
hold D'Ganzio and Sonthert against fleet level attacks. as well as assult
Lanth and attack and 'distract' the forces on Arsenal Ivendo,  and prepare
for an attack by the Darriens and additionally say try and retake the
disputed worlds.
FUN.

Arsenal or Depot would be a logical place to concentrate fleets before they
enter battle, so the fleets from Rhylanor, Mora and Lunion subsectors as
well as any that may show up from the interior would tend to concentrate
there.
so besieging it would entail dealing with them as well.

If it were in Inthe, Regina 0810, there are 9 systems with gas giants that
could get to Regina in one intermediate jump, and forces who ever is
attacking
Lanth to cover and hold Ghandi, Victoria, Victoria and Southert as being the
last stage of a two jump pattern to Lanth.  One would lose the concentration
effect of a more centrally located A/D but instead rather the there is a
Major new nexus to coreward to worry about.

As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector admiral.

As a second aside, picture what might have happened if one or another black
fleet riding species of viririi had taken over a depot.

As a third aside I would picture that the equivalent of a numbered fleet
strength is assign to depot defense, plus any ground forces

As a fourth and final aside, all this does not consider the effect of the
repair yards of the A/d Spinward Marches, you are talking A ???[8/9]6? F for
relevant world stats, even small contracts let to outside entities are worth
many MCrimps.

jml

__________________
"God does not throw dice" Albert Einstein

"Oh yes, he does throw dice" Skye Masterson

jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
___________________
___________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:34:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1012952090.0.79725100@www.springmail.com>

While formatting this for print-out I began to like it even more than I did at first, and am convinced that with a little more detail this system could be used to design ships even for PCs.  The only details that I'd like to see (and think are important in-game considerations) are:

1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy (and is probably already provided in QSDS, but it needs to be pasted into this system as well).  If the ship is used in actual play, the players are going to want to know this stuff.

2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.  I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to work up a formula where Fuel tonnage = x% of total 'equipment' tonnage with x derived somehow from the avg. M + J drive rating.  It wouldn't need to be exact; just within ~20% of the 'real' (FF&S) value (like everything else in the system).

3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC ship (especially a merchant ship where mortgage and annual maintenence costs are key considerations).  I suggested earlier an idea for a formula to come up with per ton costs for the 'equipment' section, and once that's taken care of all that's needed is to attach a column of prices to the components in each of the other sections.  Once again, all that should be necessary is a quick copy-and-paste from QSDS.

With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most non-gearheads should ever need.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:36:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:36:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <003501c19660$a4b5f6e0$e2568a90@computer>
 <3C40E248.15695.1AD5502@localhost>
 <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:44 PM +1100 1/17/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>I think you missed the point of my argument: A *particular character*
>might have a broad Merchant-14 at the appropriate cost by the skill
>tables, and variations within that skill for particular situations.  A
>different character might also have overall Merchant-14, but split
>into Haggling-10, Market Research-16, Advertising-13 and
>Evaluation-12, for the same points as 14s across the board.

Sounds like you want a "skill tree" where you have a hierarchy of 
more general and more detailed skills.  Some games have these.  I 
don't have a strong opinion on them.


>  >Well, the rules I've seen have generally applied penalties to do
>>things which didn't exist before.
>
>Wrong.  Those things always existed in the *game-world*, they just
>weren't previously *published* in a sourcebook.  Yes, it would make
>sense to apply penalties to things that no-one in the game-world had
>ever tried before -- but the situations described in sourcebooks with
>penalties are almost never of this type.  (When they are, they usually
>attract *huge* penalties, like -15 to -25!)

I'm not sure what you mean.  What I meant was that when authors added 
new skills, the generally allowed defaults for them except for more 
special things.

>  >  For example, there was never really a way to apply market analysis
>>in GURPS before Far Trader.
>
>Sure there was: roll Merchant skill, since that's the skill that
>covers that sort of thing.  There weren't any detailed *published*
>rules, but that's not the same thing.

But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having 
Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built 
their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.

>
>By the same reasoning, there weren't any rules for changing lanes in a
>busy multi-lane road, hence it should be covered in a new sourcebook
>by a new skill specific to city traffic defaulting at -4 to
>Driving(Car).

The difference is that changing lanes is something that one could 
expect to do in most world books.  Now if you made up a "Car racer" 
supplement where 90% of the rolls relied on Driving (Race Car) it 
would, IMO, be quite reasonable to make up some more detailed skill 
rules.

>  >While I don't use maneuvers (I think them a needless complication for
>>anything but a martial arts campaign) the things they apply penalties
>>to (which the maneuver then lets you buy off) are often things that
>>weren't possible before (like spin kicks).
>
>*Of course* spin kicks were possible before!  Not everyone necessarily
>trains in them, but for those who do it is not at all a particularly
>difficult maneuver to carry out.
>   There should be no penalty to do so
>in my opinion, though if you are using detailed rules it should
>probably give your opponent a bonus to their defence due to the
>difficulty of doing so without telegraphing -- again a different thing
>from assigning a direct penalty.


Well, they weren't possible in the rule set.  Obviously anything is 
possible if the GM comes up with his own rules.  I don't know if 
there should be a penalty (I don't do a lot of marial arts) and I 
don't remember if GURPS has much of a penalty. 

>  >  Where such things were possible, it was considered necessary for
>>the penalties to match the existing one (like a -4 penalty for off
>>hand use).
>
>A penalty far too broad, in my opinion.  And I can hardly be called
>ambidextrous!

I always found it reasonable.

>
>
>>Well, the amount of disads that is "average" is not explicitly
>>defined.  However, the assumption seems to be that, while PCs are
>>more capable than the average person, they aren't more "screwed up"
>>than the average person.
>
>Do note that -45 points is the *maximum* amount a PC can be "screwed
>up" in a typical campaign.  *Not* the average.  Furthermore, on
>average the points from disadvantages should be pretty similar to
>those in advantages.

Well, it is generally regarded as a standard amount and not a "really 
screwed up character".

>  >I'm not sure about that.  If the stat you need the most isn't ST or
>  >HT, then it is hard to claim that is the central stat for your
>>character.
>
>I'm not talking about *needs*, I'm talking about the assets and
>liabilities that nature and upbringing have given the character.  I'm
>using "central" stat to mean the one that is numerically the highest.
>Otherwise, the claim that the "central" stat will often be 11 or 12 is
>invalid.

But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets 
make them good at.  So people in occupations that need high IQ will 
naturally have IQ as one of the highest attributes.

>  >  Skill breadth really does, IMO, have to depend on the game utility
>>of the skill.  CT did this too.  Some of the scientific skills are
>>fairly broad while the weapon skills were subdivided, MT even going
>>so far as to add "cascade" skills.
>
>Well, here we just have to disagree completely.  Game usefulness is a
>metagame concept that I believe should be completely divorced from
>rules that model the game world, such as how long a character needs to
>practice to become competent.

I don't think this works in a real game.  But clearly we will have to 
agree to disagree.

>  >That is exactly what I'm talking about, but defining it in game
>>terms.  Just as one weapon skill hardly makes a warrior, just one
>>Engineering skill hardly makes an Engineer and, if Trading is going
>>to be central aspect to a campaign, just one Merchant skill shouldn't
>>be the basis for a Trader.
>
>So long as the level of detail (a metagame concept) doesn't affect the
>in-game-world level of competence of a character, we're in agreement.
>You can differentiate between warriors without forcing all warrior
>characters to cost more points.

But it, IMO, will.

>
>>>   After all, aren't *unmodified* skill rolls only meant to apply in
>>>stressful, time-limited, or otherwise poor circumstances?  Why are
>>>there so few bonuses for *good* conditions?
>>
>>Not really.  Routine task are often suppose to not require any roll
>>at all.
>
>That's what I mean.  Consider a person with a skill of 8.  Their
>chance of success goes from almost nil (e.g. -4), to very poor
>(unmodified), then discontinuously jumps to automatic (routine, hence
>no roll).  That discontinuity is a flaw.

I often have people make rolls at a bonus where I think it will 
affect the game.  Thus someone with driving could be required to make 
a roll at, for example, +5 but for character with skill, I might just 
not bother with the roll because it slows the game down too much.

>Furthermore, even a skilled character might encounter a mix of good
>conditions (which would ordinarily make it completely routine) and bad
>in the same task.  Should the bad conditions force a penalty, while
>the good conditions are ignored?

No.  Bonuses are part of the game.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:52:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:52:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT StrangeWhat's wrong with GURPS Supers
In-Reply-To: <000101c1a276$e0d0b760$5ad3d63f@customer>
References: <000101c1a276$e0d0b760$5ad3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <p0433010db8861f51e1a2@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:17 AM -0600 1/21/02, John Scarlett wrote:
>GypsyComet wrote
><snip>
>>On the flip side, GURPS is better at representing "normal people" (and
>>notably worse at representing supers) than Hero.
>
>Please elaborate.  As someone who owns GURPS Supers, but has never used it,
>I would be interested in hearing what's broken and any suggestion as to how
>to fix it. :-}

Its mostly that the supers genre uses "comic book physics".  So when 
you take a realistic system and scale up the power level, you find 
that the high power levels affect everything.  So that you get, for 
example, some thing being more deadly than the supers genre expects 
because that is how deadly that much force _should_ do.   This 
actually makes a find supers setting, but it isn't "four color 
comics" genre assumptions.

GURPS has some cinematic rules for various cinematic things (though I 
know more of the martial arts ones).  Conversely, Hero tends to start 
out in that "cinematic" mod and needs to be tweaked the other way if 
you want to run more realistic settings.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <200201161412_MC3-EDF4-FECC@compuserve.com>
References: <200201161412_MC3-EDF4-FECC@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb8861e43a1d6@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:12 PM -0500 1/16/02, Michael Taylor wrote:
>Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>(which I did when I wrote a GURPS Traveller articles years before GT
>came out).<
>
>Where can these articles be found?

ftp://ftp.sjgames.com/pub/GURPSnet/Archive/Conversions/Traveller/TravellerII.txt
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 23:54:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:54:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020121205547.93593.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020121205547.93593.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010eb88620e44068@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:55 PM -0800 1/21/02, allensh wrote:
>Where do people get this idea that GURPS keeps adding
>skills and such at such a frenetic pace? Sure, a
>sourcebook might contain a few new skills and maybe
>some new advantages and disadvantages, but these are
>generally specific to that setting and not stuff you
>would want to use in GT anyway. You are not required
>to know, buy or even acknowledge the existence of such
>things.
>
>You can, and I have, run GT from now until they
>actually invent Jump Drive with the Basic Set,
>Compendium I, the GURPS Traveller book and MAYBE GURPS
>Space. Other stuff is window dressing.

One person who runs games at cons in the bay area runs out of the 
GURPS Lite rules which has an even shorter skill set.  Those who want 
fewer skills might pick it up.  It is free from the SJG website.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:04:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TravellerPlus?
In-Reply-To: <140.826fa70.297ce86e@aol.com>
References: <140.826fa70.297ce86e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010fb886232bca50@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:43 PM -0500 1/20/02, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Jason Barnabas writes:
>
>>I generally don't like point-based CharGen.  The only exception
>>for me is Hero Games (Champions), but then again, it is truly
>>balanced and there are no divisions in the type of points.
>
>  I'm not sure I'd go quite so far as to call Hero "truly balanced", but it
>does have a very large advantage over GURPS: the volume of required material
>to be familiar with the Hero mechanics and their applications is a small
>fraction of the GURPS "new rules application of the month" problem.

Really, I find it quite the opposite and I run a GURPS Traveller game 
with GURPS Traveller and BASIC just fine.  (Actually, I wrote and 
article on doing it before SJG bought the rights and used very little 
that wasn't in BASIC).

OTOH, I find Hero too complicated for my tastes
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:10:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:10:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] OT StrangeWhat's wrong with GURPS Supers
In-Reply-To: <p0433010db8861f51e1a2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012954241.7419.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Its mostly that the supers genre uses "comic book physics".  So when 
> you take a realistic system and scale up the power level, you find 
> that the high power levels affect everything.  So that you get, for 
> example, some thing being more deadly than the supers genre expects 
> because that is how deadly that much force _should_ do.   This 
> actually makes a find supers setting, but it isn't "four color 
> comics" genre assumptions.

Well, that's part of the problem, but not all of it.  GURPS Supers also has a
variety of unfortunate issues with point costs and balance.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:18:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:18:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TravellerPlus?
In-Reply-To: <p0433010fb886232bca50@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012954706.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Really, I find it quite the opposite and I run a GURPS Traveller game 
> with GURPS Traveller and BASIC just fine.  (Actually, I wrote and 
> article on doing it before SJG bought the rights and used very little 
> that wasn't in BASIC).
> 
> OTOH, I find Hero too complicated for my tastes

Well, Hero is sort of overkill for a conventional Traveller game, since a
rather large portion of the rules involves super-powers which are not generally
going to be used in Traveller.  Hero w/o powers isn't very complicated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:16:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:16:17 -0800
Subject: OT Dummies guides was RE: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me
In-Reply-To: <20020205231314.50430.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEEAENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I am having this flash on the Tennant cartoons esp. what his Magyar would be
like!

jml
important space pirate tip #10
No rum for the navigator until after the course is punched in


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bernie McGeehan
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 3:13 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The Space Pirates Life for Me



> What is the best source of information on how to
> become a pirate? How do I
> board other ships? Etc.?
>
> Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in
> the Imperium" anywhere
> in the canon?

There ought to be....any takers?

=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil
Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:26:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:26:12 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F272An9eiesi6dQdVC1000158c2@hotmail.com>

John
Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the 
difference.
MB

**********
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)

I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
John Scarlett-
----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>To: 
<tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives> Rupert and Tod

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:33:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <memo.591279@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I'd happily write the module...

... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for 
about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit 
perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out 
by C-section in the end :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 11:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 02:05:54 -0900
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote

> Timothy Little writes:
> >Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >
> > > Also, according to Behind the Claw Trin's population 
> > > is 22 billion, not exactly 10 billion.  So, the GWP 
> > > is TCr 462, not TCr 150.

> >I'm using figures from Galactic, which gives a pop 
> > multiplier of 1 for Trin.  Thanks, I'll fix that 
> > when I get it into the database.
 
> According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ Trin had a pop 
> multiplier of 1 in 1110. According to _Regency sourcebook_ 
> it had still had it in 1117. So unless you believe that 
> Trin has somehow gained no less than 7 billion inhabitants 
> in three years (pop one can be anything up to 14 billion), 
> the figure in _BtC_ is yet another of its numerous errors.

No, a POP A Multiplier 1 world can have up to
19,999,999,999 sophonts. Pop multipliers round
down, not normally. Thus it would have to gain 
'only' a little over 2 billion people in 3 years, 
which is still rather implausible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Barry)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:55:42 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
Message-ID: <F22833HFnwpGR881Np700014568@hotmail.com>

Anthony

We have a basic disagreement -- or misunderstanding -- about the value of 
common defence. Trin defends the frontier worlds because Trin doesn't want 
to *become* the frontier -- just as New York is paying for a 'war against 
terror' to be fought in the Middle East because it *doesn't* that war fought 
in Manhattan. Regardless of your opinions about that particular campaign, or 
its effectiveness, the theory and practice is clear.

Once the frontier worlds fall, the battle lines move *closer* to Trin, and 
eventually those enemies are *at* Trin.

As for the SDBs being 'sensibly located' -- even if you are talking about 
'Fortress Trin' there is an advantage in strategic mobility. Say there are 
ten SDBs protecting the planet, and the resources of an industrial world 
supporting those SDBs. The Imperium can bring whatever it needs to the 
battle -- those SDBs might win vs. ten other starship, but against a fleet? 
Ten fleets? More, including a fleet of battle tenders dropping off riders in 
the outer system -- riders that *can* stand toe-to-toe with SDBs?

How long can Trin maintain the level of defence expenditure required to 
maintain their massive system fleet on station -- let alone fighting? How 
long before someone on Trin realises "hey, if we just kill these idiots 
running our government..." ?

In terms of human resources -- Trin's system fleet is less likely than the 
Imperial fleet to have top-quality, battle-hardened officers and spacemen. 
That's what a system fleet is -- a third-tier defensive force. It will 
probably lack strategic depth, but crucially it will lack experience. Trin 
could employ mercenaries, but what mercenary will want to face the Imperial 
Navy? They have to live to spend the money.

And over time, especially in continual battle conditions (the rolling 
assault I mentioned) Trin's people *will* fall to psychiatric collapse, 
while the Imperial forces can be rotated to keep them fresh.

This susceptibility to psychiatric illness is established in warfare since 
the Ancient Greeks, and has *nothing to do* with how tough your warriors are 
-- six weeks under continual battle stress and 98% of soldiers are 
vegetables. The other 2% are still functioning -- because 2% of the 
population are psychotic and can't become any more insane.

Refer to Grossman's "On Killing", and various others including Keegan's 
"Face of Battle".

Upshot? Even if the whole of Trin simultaneously blows their brain fuses and 
declares the Imperium to be the Great Satan, they have no hope of fighting 
off the Navy.

******
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium

"Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com> writes:
>Yes, Trin pays for the war fleet. They also pay for the honour of having 
>the
>Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, the Vargr and the Aslan turned back a *long* way
>from Trin.
Which is to say, they're subsidizing the defenses of the frontier worlds.
Which may be useful to do, but frankly, most of those groups have neither
the power nor the reason to attack Trin.
>Another fallacy is the superiority of non-jump SDBs. Yes, they are much 
>more
>effective credit-for-credit, and standing toe-to-toe with a similar tonnage
>of jump-capable ships. However a jump-capable fleet could jump insystem,
>launch an attack and be gone before SDBs can maneuver into counterattack.
Um...assuming the SDBs are sensibly located, no manuevering is required.
>Anyway, Trin stays in the Imperium for the same reason that New York stays
>in the United States: secession would be *dumb*.
But why would it be dumb?  Trin doesn't really seem to be getting much
out of the deal, except a general truce with powerful neighbors (useful,
but not obviously worth giving up much sovereignty).

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 01:08:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:08:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <20020205221135.12572.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>



Jeff Hopper wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
>  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
> product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
> joy to play.
>  Damn, now I want to find a copy.

IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a copy in high
school.  Wish I still had it....

-- 
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"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
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Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:00:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:00:49 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
References: <Springmail.105.1012952090.0.79725100@www.springmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c1aeaa$9c418ee0$3678893e@fabian>

This thread got me thinking...

Although there are many optional and funky systems, none of those are
necessarily desirable in spear carrier background ships, and there are
certain components that are always present. Some brave soul could
concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:

Choose a tech level
[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]
Choose a displacement
Specify a jump limit
Specify a G rating
Specify a % armour volume
Specify a % weapon system volume
...
Specify a % etc systems

And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
for the gearhead brigade?

Con: We need an alpha geek to volunteer to make this sucker.



----- Original Message -----
From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 05 February 2002 23:34
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System


> While formatting this for print-out I began to like it even more than I
did at first, and am convinced that with a little more detail this system
could be used to design ships even for PCs.  The only details that I'd
like to see (and think are important in-game considerations) are:
>
> 1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges,
and effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy (and is
probably already provided in QSDS, but it needs to be pasted into this
system as well).  If the ship is used in actual play, the players are
going to want to know this stuff.
>
> 2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.  I
suspect it wouldn't be too hard to work up a formula where Fuel tonnage =
x% of total 'equipment' tonnage with x derived somehow from the avg. M + J
drive rating.  It wouldn't need to be exact; just within ~20% of the
'real' (FF&S) value (like everything else in the system).
>
> 3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC
ship (especially a merchant ship where mortgage and annual maintenence
costs are key considerations).  I suggested earlier an idea for a formula
to come up with per ton costs for the 'equipment' section, and once that's
taken care of all that's needed is to attach a column of prices to the
components in each of the other sections.  Once again, all that should be
necessary is a quick copy-and-paste from QSDS.
>
> With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if
not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most
non-gearheads should ever need.
>
> Trent
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 01:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:12:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Question: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F22833HFnwpGR881Np700014568@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1012957973.2749.ajackson@ping>

Michael Barry writes:
> Anthony
> 
> We have a basic disagreement -- or misunderstanding -- about the value of 
> common defence. Trin defends the frontier worlds because Trin doesn't want 
> to *become* the frontier -- just as New York is paying for a 'war against 
> terror' to be fought in the Middle East because it *doesn't* that war
> fought  in Manhattan. Regardless of your opinions about that particular
> campaign, or  its effectiveness, the theory and practice is clear.
> 
> Once the frontier worlds fall, the battle lines move *closer* to Trin, and 
> eventually those enemies are *at* Trin.

The problem is that Traveller lacks anything resembling defensible battle
lines.  The 'front' in Traveller is whereever two fleets happen to meet.  If
someone wants to fight at Trin, guess what -- they can.

> And over time, especially in continual battle conditions (the rolling 
> assault I mentioned) Trin's people *will* fall to psychiatric collapse, 
> while the Imperial forces can be rotated to keep them fresh.

Actually, Trin is vastly closer to resupply than the Imperial Navy, so most
likely the Trin naval forces will be psychologically much healthier than the
IN.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:34:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
In-Reply-To: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020205183105.00a314f0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:15:53 -0500, Michael Taylor 
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:

>It's easy to criticize, but who's going to write the module?

According to my copy of Double Adventure 5 (The Chamax Plague/Horde), that 
would be the Keith brothers, with some assistance from John Harshman, John 
Astell and Frank Chadwick.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:04:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
Message-ID: <3C609D38.C57E5A9D@premier.net>

Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:

http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html

Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
clan....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:28:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:28:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <20020205173729.66538.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1aeb6$06e6bb70$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you Paul for your examination. Two things come to mind.

1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly unless they started out
'real' strong.
2) your descriptions leave out what low strength means as an effect of
damage.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:19:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:19:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>

Mr. Uhl, declaring a desire to immortalize the work of L. E. W. in ever
increasing formats says, "Don't suppose you've a copy of the text files
lying about?"

I do. Coming at you off the list. Where there is html there is text. Are
you going to stop at LaTex? Why not POD and DocBook/XML too?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:17:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:17:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:
In-Reply-To: <F272An9eiesi6dQdVC1000158c2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205221655.01a11cc0@mail.charter.net>

Hmmm...must be kinda like telling the difference between Al Gore and the 
Unibomber...

At 11:26 AM 2/6/2002 +1100, Michael Barry wrote:
>John
>Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the 
>difference.
>MB
>
>**********
>From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
>
>I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
>National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
>John Scarlett-
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "Michael Barry" <barry_michael@hotmail.com>To: 
><tml@travellercentral.com>
>Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives> Rupert and Tod

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 02:26:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Ground Forces (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202051825490.4754-100000@rhylanor>

Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:47:24 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Ground Forces


>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

The problem we had with the system was that while basically sound it
couldn't reproduce modern armies to any degree of accuracy. Simply be
changing the number of BE to population (in millions) x2 gave close matches
to the modern US, UK and a few other armies. The other adaption we had was
splitting the "elite" tag down to 3 different grades: Paratroops (x1.5),
Elite/Commandos (x2) and Special Forces (x3)

FWIW: The US example used was:

Battalion Equivalents

US Population = 278 million. TL-8 = 2 BE's per million population = 556 BE's

Modifiers: x1.1 (aggressive), x1.1 (world policeman, multiple enemies) = 673

Actual costs of Divisions/ Brigades:

Divisions
Armoured: 6 Armr, 4 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 29 BE's
Infantry (Mech): 5 Armr, 5 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 28 BE's
Infantry (Medium): 2 Armr, 8 Inf, 1 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 2 Engr Bns = 20 BE's
Infantry (Light): 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr Bn = 18 BE's
Airborne: 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr, = 18 BE's
Air Assault: 9 Inf, 9 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr= 32 BE's
ACR: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, 1 FA, 1 Avn, composite Eng/ ADA Bn = 8
Marine: see below

Brigades:
Armoured: 2 Armr, 1 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 6
Infantry: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 5
I (L): 3 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 4

Marines
1st and 2nd Marine Divisions: 9 Inf, 3 FA, 1 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 36 BE's each (elite)
3rd Marine Division: 6 Inf, 2 FA, Recon, Light Armoured Recon, Amphibian
and Engineer Battalions = 24 BE's (elite)
4th Marine Division (Reserve): 9 Inf, 4 FA, 2 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 44/3 BE's (elite, reserve)

Special Forces
Rangers: 3 Battalions, Elite = 6
SFG: 15 "Battalions" (Actually half battalion in size), SF = 22.5
SFG (NG): 6 Half Battalions, SF Reserve = 3
16th SOAR: 3 Aviation Battalions = 6
Delta: 3
Marine Force Recon: 3
Total: 43.5

So:
Armr Divs: 2/1 = 67.67
Mech Divs: 3/5 = 130.67
Medium Divs: 1/1 = 26.67
Light Divs: 2/1 = 42
Air Assault Div: 1/0 = 48 (Para)
Airborne Div: 1/0 = 27 (Para)
Airborne Bde (173rd) = 7.5 (Para)
ACR: 3/1 = 26.67
Marine Corps: 3/1 = 110.67 (Elite)
Armr Bde: 0/2 = 4
Inf Bde: 0/10 =16.67
Inf Bde (L): 0/3 =4
SF: 43.5 (Mostly SF, except Rangers, elite)
FA Bdes: 7/ 17 = 38
Engr Bdes: 5/6 =21
Avn Bdes = 5/6 = 42
ADA Bdes = 3/4 = 13

Total = 669 Battalion Equivalents

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:14:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:14:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] It's neat, but is it canon?
References: <200201311811.g0VIBq629907@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1aebc$52dec3a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

Do magnetic monopoles exist IYTU?  I don't think I've seen them anywhere.
Is the science behind them out of vogue?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 20:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:53:11 +0100
Subject: [TML] New Artwork Posted
In-Reply-To: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
References: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Mike Linsenmayer wrote:
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/traveller/traveller_pic_10.htm
> 
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/traveller/traveller_pic_11.htm
> 
> http://www.thehypercube.com/images/art/space/space_pic_8.htm
> 
> I'll be posting seeral more soon.

Lovely pictures, especially the two post cards with their flavor text.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:33:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rients)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:33:39 EST
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>

Howdy folks!

I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).  I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?

For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of Cthulhu and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for generic advice for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.

Thanks in advance!

Jeff Rients

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:52:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:52:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B885E880.236DD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/5/02 10:52 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Maybe you should carry a cane. It need not be steel shod.  Get a good
> hardwood one, though.  From things you've said about yourself in the past, I
> believe that you could learn basic hapkido cane techniques pretty quickly
> from a good dojang.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> P.S.  Others have mentioned this site before:  www.canemasters.com
> 

back in my knife making days, I used a lot of exotic hardwoods.  I made a
lot of knives for martial artist.  One these customers got to know the
characteristics of these woods, I would end up making boken, canes, walking
sticks and stuff like that.

Cocoabola makes a simply awesome stick.  It is quite a bit denser than oak,
extremely hard and has the most beautiful colorings.  It polishes to a high
gloss, and doesn't need to be sealed.  Occasional oilings is the only
maintenance.  It also makes for a very effective blunt instrument.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:50:04 -0600
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <002701c1ae14$f9b45ad0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <rq916ukhm5bps72o1kf8riepaiqkbglnqj@4ax.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800, "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

>I have all 6 parts, semi-edited for spelling and some grammar,
>reformatted for the web and Microsoft Word.
>
>If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it available
>on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author
>selects.

Please note that the exteemed Whipsnade has expressed his intent to
place his works into the public domain.  I'm certain that he will
provide a simple confirmation of this shortly.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:54:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:54:26 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #129
Message-ID: <a9.22746e7b.299202f2@aol.com>

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  >I was wondering if there were any cannonical
>  references to an insectoid minor race in Traveller. 
>  The Hiver aren't realy insectoid, and neither are the
>  Droyne.  So there aren't any Major* Races that are
>  insectoid.  Are there any minor races.
>  <
>  
>  I never liked this myself, so I use an insect race in place of the K'kree

I don't know why we didn't do any insectoid races. Maybe we subconsciously 
thought bugs were icky? I did note for a couple of them, but they never saw 
print. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:58:31 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
Message-ID: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>

> I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
>  mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
>  paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
>  GM tool.

In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:58:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1aec2$91dc8000$6401a8c0@goca>

I have a copy of this in storage.  I loved playing it.  In fact, I think
it was another list member I bought it from on ebay.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 17:08
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system



Jeff Hopper wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
>  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
> product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
> joy to play.
>  Damn, now I want to find a copy.

IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a copy in high
school.  Wish I still had it....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:19:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:19:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020205231959.00e37a38@buffnet.net>

At 10:58 PM 2/5/2002 EST, you wrote:
>> I'm sure that's what you wanted. I happen to think you made a serious
>>  mistake in going with the "when the Marines arrive the game is over"
>>  paradigm. To me that means that they are more or less useless to me as a
>>  GM tool.
>
>In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions. 
>
>LKW

Hello Loren,
  I suspect you have enough to do real life wise than to answer this
question ;)

How much of the previous canon material was pulled out of thin air
mentality verus "Let's get this as realistic as we can" approach?

Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
have been interesting to see.

I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)

         Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 03:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:41:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <rq916ukhm5bps72o1kf8riepaiqkbglnqj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1aec0$2d930c10$2f7de40c@loki>


J.R. Holmes reminds me that LEW had placed this great work in the public
domain. To Wit:

I did mis-remember that then re-remember it too after posting.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:44:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:44:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205224606.02039ec0@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:27, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken

Actually, moderately seriously (with the caveat that the system represents 
only about three or four hours' work).  The drive and fuel computations 
behind the payload matrix are based on real FF&S2 data.  In fact, you can 
use the following table to estimate drive volume fairly accurately for any 
FF&S derived design system (FF&S, FF&S2, SSDS, QSDS) designs:

TL      10      10      11      12      13      14      15
         J-0     J-1     J-2     J-3     J-4     J-5     J-6
M-0     0%      17%     32%     48%     57%     71%     78%
M-1     4%      18%     34%     50%     59%     73%     80%
M-2     7%      19%     36%     52%     61%     75%     82%
M-3     11%     23%     38%     53%     63%     77%     84%
M-4     14%     26%     39%     55%     65%     79%     86%
M-5     18%     30%     41%     57%     66%     80%     87%
M-6     22%     34%     43%     59%     68%     82%     89%

The stated percentage is the proportion of the ship's overall volume that 
will be required for a jump drive and enough fuel for a single maximum 
range jump, plus the maneuver drive (HePlaR at TL-10, T-Plate at TL-11+), a 
fusion power plant, and power plant fuel for a year.  All drive components 
are assumed to be at the listed TL for the jump range: thus, all J-2 ships 
are assumed to be built at TL-11.

This last is a fairly significant limitation, since the listed TL-15 power 
plant is smaller than the (lower-output) plants required by the TL-12 
through TL-14 drive systems.  One way to fix this would be a TL-based bonus 
to payload (I'd like opinions, if this adds too much complexity or 
not).  The rule would be: if building a ship at a higher TL than the 
minimum listed at the top of the column, add the following bonus to payload:

TL      Bonus
13-14  +3%
15      +5%

Thus, a J-2, M-2 design would normally have a 54% payload; at TL-13 or 
TL-14, it would have a 57% payload, and at TL-15 it would have a 61% 
payload.  There are a few other tweaks I want to make.  These would mainly 
be to add crew and price calculations, and ensure that workstations for the 
crew are included in the volume calculation above.  The actual numbers are 
unlikely to change significantly (but may vary by +/- a few percent).

Unfortunately, the volume of the hull structure, armor, life-support, grav, 
and inertial compensation systems isn't so easy to calculate, since this 
varies widely with the actual configuration.  Real hull designs in the 100 
to 5000 dton range use between 5% and 10% of total volume for these 
systems.  The TrivShips payload matrix uses a 10% allowance for this 
purpose.  The armor modifier to the payload was done using a TLAR* method, 
so this portion of the system is subject to change as I work with it some 
more.  These are also the regions of the "real" design system that are most 
nonlinear with displacement.  Length determines the maximum power of a 
spinal weapon, while surface area determines the relative cost of armor, 
and volume determines the amount of systems that can be packed into the ship.

* TLAR = "That Looks About Right"

>I must admit I actually like it quite a bit.

Good!  :-)

>While I wouldn't use it to design any long-term/important ships, it's 
>almost exactly the sort of system I wanted for designing quick background 
>color 'spear carrier' ships.

OK; that sounded like the sort of thing that you wanted.  Here's a question 
for you - would you like the weapons list simplified a bit?  I think that I 
could simply the weapon list considerably, particularly if I had a good 
idea of what combat system to target the resulting designs at.  How would 
people use the resulting designs?  Would detailed weapons and combat stats 
even be needed?

>One area where the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives 
>don't affect price?

Yeah; this is something I want to improve.  I confess that I'd built the 
spreadsheet behind last night's posting without reference to price, and 
then by the time I noticed, it was too late to add it back in without going 
over the entire thing again.  This will be fixed in the next edition; price 
will probably be some amount per non-payload ton, plus some additional 
amount (MCr 1 per 5 dtons?) for weapons systems.  Otherwise, at the scale 
we're talking about, the systems prices for payloads are negligible.

The same is true for crew; I should have been tracking it with the 
spreadsheet from the beginning.  I suspect that the number included in the 
initial rules will result in crews that are too large.

>Anyhow, thanks for posting this.

You're welcome!


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 04:29:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:29:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
In-Reply-To: <15b.87e834b.299203e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020205232942.00e37a38@buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
missions for me...

1) capital ships: dreadnaught for fleet killing missions
2) Capital ships: cruisers for showing the flag and being able to survive
in the battle line
3) fighter carriers: mobile fighter bases
4) escort carriers: smaller mobile fighter bases
5) troop carriers
6) ammunition transports
7) refueling ships
8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes
9) Hospital ships
10) picket ships
11) sensor ships
12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)
13) Destroyers: warships designed to deal with commerce raiders and pirates
14) Commerce raiders
15) Survey ships
16) patrol ships
17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)
18) communications dispatch ships

Patrol ships and emergency response ships would come under a local navy set
up I would imagine

any other ideas?  What about ratios of certain ship types versus other ship
types?  Would a "factory" ship make sense for those fleets that do not have
access to a high tech populated world in order to do local support of
fleets and armies?


               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:26:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205235858.00ac0260@mail.qrc.com>

On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:34, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and 
>effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy.

Yes; though adding this information would have bulked up the tables 
considerably, since it varies for most of the different TLs.  You can 
assume that the basic bridge uses "Basic" commo and sensors from QSDS.  The 
standard bridge uses "Improved" commo and sensor fit, while "Military" uses 
the "Advanced" communications and either "Small Military" or "Medium 
Military" depending on the size of the hull (small for many hulls under 
1000 dtons; medium for hulls over 1000 dtons).  Alternatively, consider 
selecting sensor and commo fit directly from QSDS.

>2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.

You can figure the "usual" jump fuel requirement (10% of ship volume per 
jump number) to keep the jump drives fed.  You can safely assume that ships 
include scoops if you wish.  Fuel purifiers are not actually figured into 
any of the tables (subtract 2% from payload for purifiers that take 12 
hours to purify the ship's jump fuel).

Power plant fuel is harder to compute, since most power-using payload 
systems include a "slice" of power plant in their volume.  Since we're 
going for a +/- 20% level of accuracy, the power plant fuel is negligible 
at this level of detail.  Power plant fuel is typically around 3%-5% of 
hull volume, but larger for military ships with lots of power-hungry 
weapons.  Since the power plant only needs refuelling once a year anyway, 
just include it in annual maintenance and forget about it.  ;-)

>3) Price -- The 'make up a number' approach isn't good enough for a PC ship

Yes; see my earlier post - the next version will have better 
pricing.  Still not very accurate (and I still would not want to use this 
system for PC ships), but it'd probably be usable.

>With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if 
>not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most 
>non-gearheads should ever need.

I don't know about that; this system almost requires a calculator (to take 
the payload percentages).  Both QSDS and Book 2 are easily done with a 
pencil and paper, since almost all of the calculations are either easy 
multiplication ("quick, what's 4 times 13?") or simple addition and 
subtraction.  On top of that, TrivShips doesn't really produce enough 
detail to draw good deckplans or exteriors of the ship (though your 
requests for more detail are rapidly approaching this - and also rapidly 
approaching QSDS).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:05:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] CT/HG Ship Design Spreadsheet?
Message-ID: <B885F99C.1BFC%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

I know there must be a few of these out there; if someone could just give me
a pointer...

Thanks,
Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:35:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ground Forces
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020205221050.02b0c980@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8860088.23775%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:47:24 +0000
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Ground Forces


>According to GURPS Traveller Ground Forces, the Unified Army of Mora has
>six LI field armies.  Not the planet, but the subsector's Imperial Army.
>The planet's PDF *will* be larger than the local UA.

The problem we had with the system was that while basically sound it
couldn't reproduce modern armies to any degree of accuracy. Simply be
changing the number of BE to population (in millions) x2 gave close matches
to the modern US, UK and a few other armies. The other adaption we had was
splitting the "elite" tag down to 3 different grades: Paratroops (x1.5),
Elite/Commandos (x2) and Special Forces (x3)

FWIW: The US example used was:

Battalion Equivalents

US Population = 278 million. TL-8 = 2 BE's per million population = 556 BE's

Modifiers: x1.1 (aggressive), x1.1 (world policeman, multiple enemies) = 673

Actual costs of Divisions/ Brigades:

Divisions
Armoured: 6 Armr, 4 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 29 BE's
Infantry (Mech): 5 Armr, 5 Inf, 3 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 3 Engr Bns = 28 BE's
Infantry (Medium): 2 Armr, 8 Inf, 1 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 2 Engr Bns = 20 BE's
Infantry (Light): 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr Bn = 18 BE's
Airborne: 9 Inf, 3 Avn, 4 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr, = 18 BE's
Air Assault: 9 Inf, 9 Avn, 3 FA, 1 ADA, 1 Engr= 32 BE's
ACR: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, 1 FA, 1 Avn, composite Eng/ ADA Bn = 8
Marine: see below

Brigades:
Armoured: 2 Armr, 1 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 6
Infantry: 1 Armr, 2 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 5
I (L): 3 Inf, Comp. Armr Cav/ Engr Support = 4

Marines
1st and 2nd Marine Divisions: 9 Inf, 3 FA, 1 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 36 BE's each (elite)
3rd Marine Division: 6 Inf, 2 FA, Recon, Light Armoured Recon, Amphibian
and Engineer Battalions = 24 BE's (elite)
4th Marine Division (Reserve): 9 Inf, 4 FA, 2 Armr, Recon, Light Armoured
Recon, Amphibian and Engineer Battalions = 44/3 BE's (elite, reserve)

Special Forces
Rangers: 3 Battalions, Elite = 6
SFG: 15 "Battalions" (Actually half battalion in size), SF = 22.5
SFG (NG): 6 Half Battalions, SF Reserve = 3
16th SOAR: 3 Aviation Battalions = 6
Delta: 3
Marine Force Recon: 3
Total: 43.5

So:
Armr Divs: 2/1 = 67.67
Mech Divs: 3/5 = 130.67
Medium Divs: 1/1 = 26.67
Light Divs: 2/1 = 42
Air Assault Div: 1/0 = 48 (Para)
Airborne Div: 1/0 = 27 (Para)
Airborne Bde (173rd) = 7.5 (Para)
ACR: 3/1 = 26.67
Marine Corps: 3/1 = 110.67 (Elite)
Armr Bde: 0/2 = 4
Inf Bde: 0/10 =16.67
Inf Bde (L): 0/3 =4
SF: 43.5 (Mostly SF, except Rangers, elite)
FA Bdes: 7/ 17 = 38
Engr Bdes: 5/6 =21
Avn Bdes = 5/6 = 42
ADA Bdes = 3/4 = 13

Total = 669 Battalion Equivalents

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 05:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:33:57 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
Message-ID: <b4.6128646.29921a45@aol.com>

Hal asks:

> Hello Loren,
>    I suspect you have enough to do real life wise than to answer this
>  question ;)
>  
>  How much of the previous canon material was pulled out of thin air
>  mentality verus "Let's get this as realistic as we can" approach?

You mean, "How much of it did we make up out of whole cloth?" 

>  Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
>  militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
>  have been interesting to see.

"Where is the prince, who can afford so to cover his land with troops for its 
defense, that a body of 10,000 men descending from the coulds could not cause 
a great deal of mischief before a force could be assembled to repel them."
          Benjamin Franklin, 1784, predicts airmobile forces (my paraphrase)


Marc and Rich Banner were veterans and all of us were military historians and 
wargamers. This means we had a good working knowledge of how to get the 
military side reasonably "realistic" but we also made some concessions to 
simplicity and what made for a good game (in our opinion). We weren't above 
outright fabrication, but you'd be surprised how few concepts of future 
warfare are totally new. You just have to ask the right "what if?" questions.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 06:19:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:19:00 -0600
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
References: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>





> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:34:54 -0700
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Son of MT Ship Design question
> 
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:57:53AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> >
> >
> > And of course some time ago on this very mailing list a design criteria
> > was mooted for a gun capable of propelling flightless waterfowl which
> > although it doesn't really bear on the question at hand gives me a
> > chance to say that, "on the TML Penguin cannons are canon."
> 
> Your spell checker okays `cannons' but not `canon'?

Different spell checker actually. I very recently decided to try a new
email reader. Although I doubt that it makes that much of a difference
as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in far more common
use than the word canon which doesn't get used much outside of theology
and the occasional rpg setting discussion.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 07:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:55:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
In-Reply-To: <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020206185533.A19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an
> Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would
> like...what does MySQL import?

Not a great deal.  Last time I transferred stuff between databases, I
used endless rows of 'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
:)

The easiest format for me to read would probably be rows of values
with fields separated by some fixed character.  The characters used to
delimit lines and fields are user-definable.  The default for MySQL
file import is for each line to be terminated by a '\012' newline,
fields separated by commas, and backslash (\) used to protect each
occurrence of a newline, comma, or backslash within a field.



> The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...

OK, so the genie data has a bit more coverage than the classic data in
Galactic, and the FS data somewhat less.  I could always try to merge
them :)

Does anyone know how much of the Traveller universe is covered by
canonical UWP data?

Are there empires outside the 100 or so sectors covered by the large
scale map in the front of GURPS Traveller?  The galaxy as a whole
would take up half a *million* sectors.  We know that the Empress Wave
came from a race outside charted space, but is this an exception or is
the whole galaxy teeming with life?


> This is the format of the table: (Table key is composite sectorname, hex)

OK, should be easy to translate to what I've got so far.  In fact,
it's very similar.  I've broken down the UWP and have a few
translation tables to aid in importing new data and converting between
Classic and GURPS profiles.


> The FS data isn't broken out like that, but I have a bunch of views that 
> do the same thing...does MySQL do views yet?

Wouldn't have the foggiest :/

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a database guru -- I'm using
MySQL mainly because it's already set up and phpMyAdmin is really easy
to use :)  So if MySQL has views I wouldn't know how to use them.


> If not you might want to consider Postgres instead, it's not as widely 
> supported, but it's much more a 'real' database than mysql.

Yes, I've got Postgres installed but had a bit of trouble trying to
learn how to use it :(   Now that I know more about database
administration in general, I could probably tackle it successfully
this time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:04:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:04:13 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Power of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C5FBC89.56567431@gci.net>
Message-ID: <20020206190413.B19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter Newman wrote:
> No, a POP A Multiplier 1 world can have up to 19,999,999,999
> sophonts. Pop multipliers round down, not normally. Thus it would
> have to gain 'only' a little over 2 billion people in 3 years, which
> is still rather implausible.

Not too implausible -- just a growth rate of 3% per year.  Unusual
from the perspective of an industrialized Earth nation, granted.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 06:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:42:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
References: <3.0.1.32.20020205232942.00e37a38@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3C60D03F.4402C3B5@premier.net>



hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> Hello Folks,
>   Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
> exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
> going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
> missions for me...
> 
<<snips major combatant types>>

> 5) troop carriers

Note that these would be divided between simple transports and ships
capable of delivering jump troops.  Transport ships may also be
categorized based on the size of the ground unit they are designed to
deliver to the combat zone.  In general, regular transports are likely
to carry units between battalion and brigade sizes; jump troop
transports may be designed to move units as small as a single platoon
(an example of this latter type is the AuricTech _Reuben Tucker_-class
[see my sig file for the URL]).

> 6) ammunition transports
> 7) refueling ships
> 8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes
> 9) Hospital ships
> 10) picket ships
> 11) sensor ships

Categories 10 and 11 would tend to overlap, and would probably be
covered by destroyers and escort vessels.  Indeed, while this list
mentions destroyers (Cat 13), smaller escort vessels (such as the
_Gazelle_-class escort) are apparently ignored.

> 12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)

These would probably be cruisers, either converted to IISS requirements
(such as the several _Azhanti High Lightning_-class ships transferred to
the IISS) or purpose-built (such as the AuricTech Shipyards _Gran
Fenwick_-class, available from the URL in my sig file).

> 15) Survey ships
> 16) patrol ships
> 17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)
> 18) communications dispatch ships

Two other categories would be C3 [*] ships (intended to act as flagships
for convoy escort and other light squadrons) and VIP transports.  Note
that the AuricTech Shipyards _Electra III_-class large yacht, with her
milspec fiber-optic computers, generous commo suite, J4/4G performance
and stealth/ECM suite was designed to fill both roles.  All that would
be required would be to convert some or all of the Ballroom to a Combat
Information Center (remaining space becomes a crew lounge).  The specs
for _Electra III_ can be found on my Web site (see my sig file for the
URL).

Another category would be intelligence-gathering ships, such as the
AuricTech _Stump_-class Signals Intelligence ship (first posted to the
TML on 15 November 2001; design specs available upon request).

<<snip>>

[*] Command/Control/Communications

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:13:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:13:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <F271YDqP5ltd9LjLENg0000f749@hotmail.com>

>4. UNCONFIRMED: There was one in a late-MT/early-TNE Challenge >Magazine. 
>It might have been the special horror issue but I'm not sure >and I can't 
>find the magazine. Someone else might remember more.
>
>Anyone able to narrow down possible issue number for #4?

I found my stack of Challenge magazines after going though my bookshelf a 
little more thoroughly. The adventure in question is "The Madness Effect", 
written by Paul Lukas and published in Challenge 75 (The horror issue was nr 
54 so I was only off by 21 issues - lol).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:28:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:28:58 +1300
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1aeb6$06e6bb70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEBDHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

n2sami wrote
> 1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly unless
> they started out 'real' strong.

The _maximum_ reduction in Strength you can get by age 38 in CT
is -2.

That means a character they will be fine unless they started out
real weak, and had no Strength adds during character gen.

Frankie









From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 08:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:43:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020206194323.C19685@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> Is it really plausible for a world the age of Trin and with that
> population to be self sufficient enough to not need trade?

Certainly.  They have the local technology to produce anything they
want.  With the energy available from large-scale fusion power,
high-tech automation, and genetic tinkering, you could make food
starting from water, rocks, and air if you had to.  The costs would be
higher than farming in rich soil, but higher than the costs of
interstellar shipping?


>  I have a hard time believing there are plentious mineral sites as
> well as plentious agriculture fields.  Something has got to give?

Certainly they're going to be more abundant in some resources than
others.  But agriculture fields are so TL8 you know :)

Most minerals are really plentiful if you have the energy to extract
them, and doubly so if you have just a few asteroids or moons in the
system.  For the *really* rare ones, it might even be cost effective
to perform nucleosynthesis.  After all, 1 Cr at TL F should buy about
10^12 joules (assuming fixed power plants can do no better than
vehicle power plants).  That's enough energy to do macroscopic amounts
of transmutation.


> Now, before anyone jumps too hard on my case, I'm trying to justify
> this in my mind with what I've read here on the list.  My collection
> of source material is VERY small, but other than the brief mention
> of the rules in Gurps: Free Trader, I haven't seen anything to
> answer these questions.

Despite my arguments above, I agree with you.  Although it would be
relatively easy for Trin to become self-sufficient, comparative
advantage and the relatively low cost of shipping dictate that trade
should be *much* higher than Far Trader suggests, and consequently the
effects of an embargo should be much greater.


> So, how is it that this Hi-Pop world is so self sufficient (BTW, can
> someone post the UPP for Trin)

A 894A96-F, according to Galactic.

BTW, for some reason Far Trader is missing Trin from its tables :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 00:43:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:43:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <001e01c1adee$17e32b70$2f7de40c@loki> <OE29jgJKVApwOLZCHus000047fa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1aef6$c603a500$0600a8c0@imogen>

Jeff Yin wrote:
> Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard ships
> engaged in fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard
> is somewhat sluggish even for a single large ship, to say nothing
> of a BatRon.

You could try Power Projection (formerly Traveller  Full  Thrust)
from BITS.  This is Full Trust rules for  cruiser  level  combat.
Its still a beta release, but this is largely due to tweeking: it
has been trialed at several UK conventions ... often with several
cruisers at once (Ghalalk class,  Atlantic  class,  and  Gionetti
class converted from HG stats).  It still  needs  playtesting  of
various rule modifications, but ...

Alternatively, you could automate the battery fire rolls using  a
computer.  There's a program called BatteryMaster  that  you  can
download off the  net.  (Haven't  tried  it  yet,  but  it  looks
straight forward enough.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 11:48:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:48:31 +1300
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3C61CEDF.4933.3B23DB@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2002, at 14:40, John-Martin wrote:

> Where would you locate a Depot?  A bit ago locating one was offered as a
> cause for a threat of independence by Trin.

Not a threat of independence, a threat of a power struggle between 
the Sector Duke and Trin. For a variety of reasons (already covered 
by others), revolt is not an attractive option. However, a little 
"throwing their weight around" is.

> Well I been doing some thinking about siting an Arsenal, sort of a
> proto-depot, one capable of growing into a full fledged depot in time.

> Considerations

> What are the requirements of a Depot, we'll assume that an arsenal has to
> fulfill them as well.

You've missed one set. Not only does the location of a depot have 
military considerations, there are also profound political and 
economic considerations. The construction of a depot is going to 
bring considerable economic benefits to the surrounding systems 
and it will suck IN work from existing yards. There are really only 
four subsectors that have the political clout to get the depot: 
Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin's Veil. I'd imagine that there would 
be considerable political infighting between these Dukes to get the 
depot on their turf. This would lead to a lot of intrigue and horse 
trading amonst the subsector Dukes (with the major Dukes 
competing for the support of those who don't have a chance of 
actually getting the depot in their subsector). All in all, excellant 
adventure fodder.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:01:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:01:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] In Search Of James Jensen...
Message-ID: <9m626ukte51r0pin36ml80qf4d09mfkni0@4ax.com>

... formerly posting from cheeb0 at a freemail provider.

I just reorganized my mail folders, and found something I need to talk to
him about.  Does anyone have a current contact point?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:32:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:32:15 +1000
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c1af0b$df90e2c0$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: "David P. Summers" 
> >By the same reasoning, there weren't any rules for changing lanes in a
> >busy multi-lane road, hence it should be covered in a new sourcebook
> >by a new skill specific to city traffic defaulting at -4 to
> >Driving(Car).
> The difference is that changing lanes is something that one could
> expect to do in most world books.  Now if you made up a "Car racer"
> supplement where 90% of the rolls relied on Driving (Race Car) it
> would, IMO, be quite reasonable to make up some more detailed skill
> rules.

<innocent>

Isn't there a GURPS Car Wars supplement?

</innocent>

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:42:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:42:21 +1000
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c1af0b$e8a34600$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: John-Martin
> As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
> useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
> arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector
> admiral.

Which explains why the Ilelish fleet was commanded by Dulinor's brother,
Admiral Hutara.  Oops!

Depots can be very dangerous when they fall under the influence of Archdukes
and Sector Dukes, but then, they usually are under such influence, IMTU.

"A slightly cynical emperor" would probably have to spend a lot of time
breaking such connections.  They might not be too keen to provide other
Archdukes/Dukes with such dangerous weapons.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:32:19 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c1af0b$e4158080$f4b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> I suppose for your point of view, you could reverse it (invert the
> percentages in the payload matrix): choose the payload you want, choose
> performance, and then multiply by the factor in the table to get ship
> size.

This isn't a bad idea.

It even has a kind of in-game logic to it:  a specification is issued, and a
manufacturer, or manufacturers, produce designs to match.

The viewpoint changes from that of an engineer to that of a bureaucrat, a
manager, or an accountant.  I like it.

(And for military designs:  well, admirals are basically bureaucrats and
managers, aren't they?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 12:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:58:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <20020206.084325.-222961.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

If possible, get a copy of the Citizens of the Imperium supplement. 
Opens up a lot of possibilities for previous careers.


On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:33:39 EST Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net> writes:
> Howdy folks!
> 
> I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro 
> adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 
> Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).  
> I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next 
> couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward 
> Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?
> 
> For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of 
> Cthulhu and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for 
> generic advice for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific 
> to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Jeff Rients



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:53:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:53:25 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
References: <memo.591279@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <009001c1af26$6ace2f40$5ed8d63f@customer>

Write away, right away.:{ )

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "Megan Robertson" <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Alien n


> In-Reply-To:
<02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
> com>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> I'd happily write the module...
>
> ... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.
>
> The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for
> about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit
> perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out
> by C-section in the end :-)
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 14:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:42:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <OF9128D243.11335DEF-ON85256B58.00507AF8@lotus.com>

Derek Wildstar writes:
>take a look at the Trivial Ship Design sequence I posted last night.
That's the one that prompted the subject line! Your definition of simple 
is quite, quite different from my definition of simple. If you remember 
our different perspectives over the complexity of the "Quick" and "Simple" 
design system.
I want something that fits comfortably in a Java class, not that I need a 
spreadsheet for. (Otherwise I'd just go with the Megatraveller system, 
which is by far the best in my experience! :-)

But thanks!

Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:13:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206151329.89257.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> > Strength Comparison Chart:
> > Value	Strength
> >   0     The character is unable to maintain
> >         consciousness.  Muscles will not
> >         respond at all.
> 
> i've never liked the "unconscious" aspect, and
> having STR-1 I see this a
> bit clearer than most. True, an exhausted soldier
> could pass out, or even
> become unconscious, but I personally see a marked
> decline first followed
> by a self sacrifice, rather than slowing down the
> unit. I know, "never
> leave a man behind," but STR-0 goes way beyond that.
> To me the soldier
> would be near death as it is for STR-0. It's a
> Command decision.
> 
> >    2     Toddler (2-6), Bed Ridden Elderly.
> >         Ability to apply limited pressure
> >         to small objects (<100 lbs). Easily
> >         overwhelmed by average strength.
> 
> Perhaps 2 should read <50 lbs, except for Super Boy.
> I'm not bed ridden
> either, yet weaker then 2,  When the muscles won't
> respond, then you're
> bed ridden.

Thanks for the insight.  Here is the modifications
based on your observations...

Value	Strength
0	Bed Ridden. Muscles will not respond at all.
         The character bay be unable to maintain
         consciousness.
1	Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic, "Vegetable".
         Very little muscular exertion.  No ability
         to apply any significant pressure.
2	Toddler (2-6), Extreme Elderly.  Ability
         to apply exerted pressure to small objects
         (<50 lbs).  Easily overwhelmed by average
         strength.
3	Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.  Ability to
         apply normal pressure to move small objects
         (<50 lbs).

Does that seem more appropriate?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:44:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:44:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206154459.42894.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> 
> Thank you Paul for your examination. Two things come
> to mind.
> 
> 1) many CT 38 years olds are bed-ridden elderly
> unless they started out
> 'real' strong.
> 2) your descriptions leave out what low strength
> means as an effect of
> damage.

Thanks for the observations.  My comments...

1)  First, Take a glance at the modifications I posted
earlier.  Second, At 38, a character should have only
undergone 2 aging rolls (34 and 38).  Baring any
influence from Physical Development "skills" there
will be approximately 10.21% who either begin or end
up at STR 2 or lower.  I agree that this is somewhat
extreme, but part of what I want to do (eventually) is
come up with a reasonable aging process.  BTW, I
started this line of thinking as a result of the
original CharGen post, so I am trying to keep this
from being system specific.

2)  Should damage results be part of the Strength
characteristic, or part of the combat system?  An
honest question that I'm unsure of myself.  On the one
hand, Strength does play a part in damage, but on the
other, Damage is related to combat (for the most
part).  Anyone else have a take on this?

As always, thanks for the comments.


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:55:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:55:38 -0700
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
References: <200202060010.g160AjK04003@rhylanor.cordite.com> <00aa01c1af0b$e8a34600$f4b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3C6151FA.8090208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>>From: John-Martin
>>As an aside, a slightly cynical emporer might well think a depot as a very
>>useful counterpoise to the ambitions of a local arch duke -- and a local
>>arch duke as an equally useful counterpoise to an ambitious Sector
>>admiral.
>>
> 
> Which explains why the Ilelish fleet was commanded by Dulinor's brother,
> Admiral Hutara.  Oops!
> 
> Depots can be very dangerous when they fall under the influence of Archdukes
> and Sector Dukes, but then, they usually are under such influence, IMTU.
> 
> "A slightly cynical emperor" would probably have to spend a lot of time
> breaking such connections.  They might not be too keen to provide other
> Archdukes/Dukes with such dangerous weapons.

Which is exactly why many people thought that Strephon reviving the 
power of the Archdukes was a Bad Idea(tm).



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 15:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:54:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
References: <3C609D38.C57E5A9D@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C61519E.9040906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:
> Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:
> 
> http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html
> 
> Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
> clan....
> 
> 

Oh yeah!

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/young_ditzie.GIF

Ditzie looks JUST like her great-great-great-[n] Grandma!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:11:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] Library data in SQL?
References: <20020202120125.B17507@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C5F19D5.5010803@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020206185533.A19685@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C6155BF.4020303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>I have the old Genie sector files and the T4 First Survey both in an
>>Oracle database; I can dump 'em out for you in any format you would
>>like...what does MySQL import?
>>
> 
> Not a great deal.  Last time I transferred stuff between databases, I
> used endless rows of 'insert into table(x, y, z, ...);'
> :)
> The easiest format for me to read would probably be rows of values
> with fields separated by some fixed character.  The characters used to
> delimit lines and fields are user-definable.  The default for MySQL
> file import is for each line to be terminated by a '\012' newline,
> fields separated by commas, and backslash (\) used to protect each
> occurrence of a newline, comma, or backslash within a field.

Easy to do. I've had to do a lot of data munging, Perl is a godsend, 
Perl with DBI::Oracle doubly so...

> 
>>The genie data is 13,410 rows, the FS data is only 5921 rows...
>>
> 
> OK, so the genie data has a bit more coverage than the classic data in
> Galactic, and the FS data somewhat less.  I could always try to merge
> them :)
> 
> Does anyone know how much of the Traveller universe is covered by
> canonical UWP data?

AFAIK, the 'Genie' data is the canonical Second Survey dataset. At least 
per Mark Gelinas' article and Dave Nilsen's commentary in the next to 
last or last Challenge issue, the Genie data set is canon. Flawed, as in 
, 'generated by a computer with it's needle stuck in a groove' ;-), but 
canon, nonetheless.

The FS data I have is indeed canon, as that came directly from Marc 
Miller during the Dark Years of IG.

> 
> Are there empires outside the 100 or so sectors covered by the large
> scale map in the front of GURPS Traveller?  The galaxy as a whole
> would take up half a *million* sectors.  We know that the Empress Wave
> came from a race outside charted space, but is this an exception or is
> the whole galaxy teeming with life?

There is/was an old, larger scale map of the Known Universe that was 
published at an old fanzine site. I have it at home on a CD, but it 
outlined a number of sectors outside of canon space. It was a really 
pretty map, but I never knew what the data source was. There were a 
number of smaller polities listed on the fringes.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:06:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Alien n
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B73@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, at least she didn't come out through your chest :D

I'll shut up now ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 4:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Alien n


In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B6F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I'd happily write the module...

... and I'm just about to have a week off :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

The most frustrating thing about being pregnant was NOT watching Alien for 
about 6 months... Christine moving around inside was just a little bit 
perturbing if watching a certain scene... and of course she did come out 
by C-section in the end :-)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:19:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
In-Reply-To: <20020206154459.42894.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1af2a$09252100$2f7de40c@loki>

Well Paul, you are correct. I was over exaggerating for effect and
collected an effect I had not anticipated--how could I not
have--correction. I had so recently generated a bunch of geezers with
your spreadsheet ([F9] repeatedly) to observe the effects of aging in CT
at my 'real world' age that I had been blinded to the distributions and
probabilities and became focused on the answers in the outside fifths.

While it is combat that causes the temporary changes to the physical
characteristics, I have tried, at different rest stops along the
highway, to build explanation and description of what these numbers
meant (as if they had meaning).

Here I am, a champion of 'it is just a rule' trying to find deeper
meaning in a rule.

Sorry I babble incoherently.

Who here is missing Larsen E. Whipsnades mush more coherent form of
babble?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:25:21 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #127
Message-ID: <F124YewQ1N8Pik3Y8pE00013f5f@hotmail.com>

PLST 'asked'
>..........Metaphorically, its a bit
>like "Which is the safer car: a 'manual'  that  give  the  driver
>control, or an 'automatic' that gives the driver  less  to  worry
>about?"
>
He's obviously never seen me "driving"...  :-).

Here in the UK, if you pass your driving test in a car with a manual box, 
you can drive any car.  If you pass in a car with an auto box, you can only 
drive automatics until you resit the test and 'upgrade' your licence.

ObTrav:  Ever had one of those days when your Pilot is allowed to land 
(*anyone* can land - the trick is not to hit too hard:-) but not to take off 
again?
"Sorry Captain, your pilot is not qualified to launch from our port - he 
will have to either take the six-week Basic Trauining for a temporary 
licence or pay the Cr5000 waiver fee..."

Jeff
ps on the subject of knives, what happens when the local Law says that you 
cannot carry any 'locking' blade because - when it was written - the only 
locking blades were flick knives and bali-song.  Then your pc's show up with 
the Impie version of a Leatherman...

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:31:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:31:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9B75@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMSAO!!!!!!!!!!  Oh yeah, that's GOTTA' be Ditzie's long lost Great-Great-Great-(n)-Grandmother :)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 7:04 PM
To: Traveller Mailing List
Subject: [TML] A Famille Spofulam Ancestor?


Check out "Molly" from the "Fuzzy Logic" e-comic:

http://bbspot.com/comics/fuzzy_logic/bios.html

Seems to me that she may well be an early ancestor of the Spofulam
clan....

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 17:13:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C61CEDF.4933.3B23DB@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013015635.2767.ajackson@ping>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:

> You've missed one set. Not only does the location of a depot have 
> military considerations, there are also profound political and 
> economic considerations. The construction of a depot is going to 
> bring considerable economic benefits to the surrounding systems 
> and it will suck IN work from existing yards. There are really only 
> four subsectors that have the political clout to get the depot: 
> Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin's Veil.

Actually, there's 5.  Regina has an outside shot, due to the Archduke.

>From a practical perspective, Rhylanor is probably the best choice, unless you
think the primary threat is the Aslan.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
Message-ID: <20020206180717.72675.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

I remember much of this discussion from 1995-96 about
the real or perceived need for QSDS if SSDS was
available.  The "gearhead" v. non-"gearhead"
viewpoints still collide.  Funny, some things never
change.  :)  In any case, on to my comments.

I don't have my copy of FF&S yet, but it should be
possible to create a system based on the retail
pricing model.  There are certain "fixed" costs and
certain "variable" costs.  Since I don't have my copy
of FF&S, I can't build this monster, but it should be
able to be done.  Here is what I envision...

All costs are the percentage of hull space used.

Fixed Cost:
   System     TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
   Civ        ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
   BasMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
   AdvMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

These include a sensor suite, computers, and other
standard items.  It may or may not also include weapon
systems.  If desired there can be a base cost with a
multiplier for TL.

Variable Cost (Size):
   Disp Ton    TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
     100       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
     200       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

This includes such things as crew quarters, life
support, and possibly weapon "hardpoints"

Variable Cost (Drives):
               TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
               J-1     J-2     J-3     J-4
     M-1       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
     M-2       ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%    

This is the same (or similar) to the table posted
earlier.  This includes the Jump Drive, Maneuver
Drive, and Power Plant (and fuel?)

The sum of the three numbers would be the % of hull
volume used.  Everything else is left to cargo and
passengers (it may be necessary to provide a table for
standard stateroom sizes to allow them to be added).

The cost and other items could be determined (if
desired) by formula or other notes.

If no one takes this on, I'll attempt it when I get
FF&S.  That is, unless everyone agrees that it would
be totally useless.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:15:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013019307.0.69908000@www.springmail.com>


"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>All drive components 
>are assumed to be at the listed TL for the jump range: thus, all J-2 ships 
>are assumed to be built at TL-11.
>
>This last is a fairly significant limitation, since the listed TL-15 power 
>plant is smaller than the (lower-output) plants required by the TL-12 
>through TL-14 drive systems.  One way to fix this would be a TL-based bonus 
>to payload (I'd like opinions, if this adds too much complexity or 
>not).  The rule would be: if building a ship at a higher TL than the 
>minimum listed at the top of the column, add the following bonus to payload:
>
>TL      Bonus
>13-14  +3%
>15      +5%
>
>Thus, a J-2, M-2 design would normally have a 54% payload; at TL-13 or 
>TL-14, it would have a 57% payload, and at TL-15 it would have a 61% 
>payload.  

I like this option, and think you should definitely add it.  It 
significantly increases the system's versatility for very little 
extra work.   

Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty much always in favor of rules that 
can be calculated as a formula using the four basic functions, and 
much prefer them to tables (e.g. HG's jump-drive formula vs. the 
tables in MT and QSDS).  Only when the formulae become really 
complicated or involve higher-order functions would I rather see a 
table (or, for the purposes of this system, rather see the rule 
abstracted out to where I don't have to deal with it at all).

>Here's a question 
>for you - would you like the weapons list simplified a bit?  I think that I 
>could simply the weapon list considerably, particularly if I had a good 
>idea of what combat system to target the resulting designs at.  How would 
>people use the resulting designs?  Would detailed weapons and combat stats 
>even be needed?

The weapons list isn't very onerous as is, so to take away options 
just for the sake of further simplifying it doesn't seem like a good 
trade-off.  I'd need to see your proposed simplified version to see 
if you've gone too far.  I do think some level of weapons detail is 
necessary because a very common use for ships designed under this 
system would be small-scale 'Mayday'-type space battles -- corsair 
ambushes merchant who tries to hold out until SDBs arrive.  I would 
play out such battles using Mayday or HG/MT, but others would 
probably use one of the T4 systems.  Designing with the latter in 
mind seems best, especially since they seem to need more detail 
(which would make converting to harder than converting from).

>This will be fixed in the next edition; price 
>will probably be some amount per non-payload ton, plus some additional 
>amount (MCr 1 per 5 dtons?) for weapons systems.  Otherwise, at the scale 
>we're talking about, the systems prices for payloads are negligible.

Wouldn't it be easier to just attach a price to each listing on the 
weapons chart?  Surely sandcasters and 'civilian lasers' are cheaper 
than meson screens and PA guns, even on a per ton basis.  Remember 
that this system is going to be used by people who have essentially 
no familiarity with FF&S, so any design steps that involve the 
designer estimating a value based on their knowledge of a similar 
situation in FF&S are no good.

Please keep tweaking and refining and continue to post updates.  I 
think this system is already a huge step in the right design-
philosophical direction towards something non-gearheads can 
comfortably use to produce ship designs that are still compatible the 
rough physical parameters of the Traveller rules, and I appluad you 
for devising it.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:18:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:18:45 GMT
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEINEMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <3c6033e8.4296307@post.demon.co.uk> <3C604F1C.8080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3c6370c9.6227507@post.demon.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding 
>centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel 
>source.
>
>Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.
>
>They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest 
>Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in 
>fuel tankers.

I wasn't thinking that - but if the only source of hydrogen in the
system is, say, a small planetary icecap on a planet inside the sun's
100-diameter limit, refuelling will be easy for the system's owners
but still much harder for invaders compared to skimming a gas giant.

Anyway, since when did Hawaii have major oil and uranium reserves?
;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:16:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020205231959.00e37a38@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)

Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 16:21:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:21:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
In-Reply-To: <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>; from daveshayne@ameritech.net on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600
References: <200202052015.g15KFsD02146@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C60CAD4.3A81FEB6@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020206092116.A15511@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> 
> Different spell checker actually.  I very recently decided to try a
> new email reader.  Although I doubt that it makes that much of a
> difference as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in
> far more common use than the word canon which doesn't get used much
> outside of theology and the occasional rpg setting discussion.

It's commonly used, alright--but it's still wrong.  And, as my father
is a priest, he uses `canon' quite a bit in his email.  Seems odd that
a spiel chucker would accept an incorrect word but not a correct one.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 18:51:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:51:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F5pkpLkTgbLYluLCTao0001c7be@hotmail.com>

Hello Jeff, and welcome. :)

>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody >have 
>any advice to offer?
>
>For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of >Cthulhu 
>and several other non-sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for >generic advice 
>for new GMs.  I'm hoping for some pointers specific to >Traveller and/or 
>sci-fi gaming in general.

Before I can offer you any advice I need to know something.  What's the 
gaming experience/background of your players? Is it similar to yours?

Bob Kondrk

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:04:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:04:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Arsenal Spinward Marches, part one
In-Reply-To: <3c6370c9.6227507@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEKGENAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Actually if you look at the extra solar systems we know anything about,
jovians close in are not that unusual so a Gas Giant inside the 100 D limit
and a habitable planet is not impossible.  I think.  If not something
habitable might well be orbiting the GG.

Anyway, refueling at a depot if they don't want you too would be real hard.
I would suspect hat at least one of the GG's moons is the site of a nice
base in it's own right, and all the moons could well be riddled with deep
meson sites.

jml

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>Uhhh problem. In Peacetime Depot are major training and shipbuilding
>centers. No way are you going to keep a Depot going with no local fuel
>source.
>
>Depots ~ Norfolk, Pearl or San Diego, major bigtime Home ports.
>
>They aren't a little arsenal stashed out somewhere, but the largest
>Naval bases in the Imperium. No way you can run one of those running in
>fuel tankers.

I wasn't thinking that - but if the only source of hydrogen in the
system is, say, a small planetary icecap on a planet inside the sun's
100-diameter limit, refuelling will be easy for the system's owners
but still much harder for invaders compared to skimming a gas giant.

Anyway, since when did Hawaii have major oil and uranium reserves?
;-)

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:28:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:28:09 EST
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
Message-ID: <59.1719d3e9.2992ddc9@aol.com>

In a message dated 05/02/02 21:21:32 GMT Standard Time, 
tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:


> > I can confirm this:  A couple of years ago one evening when I was
> > bored I took a measuring jug from the kitchen into  the  bathroom
> > with me.  By counting how many jugs of water were  lost  after  I
> > had immersed myself in a full bath I determined I was roughly  as
> > dense as water (physically, not mentally).
> 
> The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
> water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
> slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.
> 
> I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
> demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
> horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
> I didn't.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> 

AFAIK what you describe is typical of most humans. The legs are less buoyant 
than the thorax and thus tend to sink. Reducing the buoyancy of the thorax by 
breathing out aids sinking in most people, which is why "staying calm" really 
means controlling your breathing to control bouyancy.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:54:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:54:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206103128.01e406b8@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> asked:
>And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
>simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
>for the gearhead brigade?

I believe there are spreadsheets available that will do approximately what 
you've described for most of the Traveller ship design systems.  I know 
there is one for MT starship design.  I was working on a QSDS spreadsheet 
when T4 imploded.  Another program that is close to that is Andrew 
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent "High Guard Shipyard" software.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:20:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:20:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
Message-ID: <20020206.122021.-6205.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Derek

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:54:19 -0500 Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
writes:
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> asked:
> >And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I 
> want a
> >simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS 
> compatible >for the gearhead brigade?
> 
> I believe there are spreadsheets available that will do 
> approximately what 
> you've described for most of the Traveller ship design systems.  I 
> know  there is one for MT starship design.  
>    --- Derek Wildstar
-
Ooooo, Oooooo, I would like one for MT. Who's got it? Somebody zip me a
copy, please :~)

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:12:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:12:31 -0700
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
References: <59.1719d3e9.2992ddc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C618E2F.9040207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> AFAIK what you describe is typical of most humans. The legs are less buoyant 
> than the thorax and thus tend to sink. Reducing the buoyancy of the thorax by 
> breathing out aids sinking in most people, which is why "staying calm" really 
> means controlling your breathing to control bouyancy.

If your legs are at all muscular, they'll sink: muscle and bone are 
denser than water, fluids and most organ tissue is about the same 
density, and fat is less dense. (IIRC)

Women will tend to float evenly in the water as they tend to 
'pear-shaped' body fat distribution, more on the hips and legs than on 
the torso, whereas men tend to the 'apple-shaped' where most fat is 
carried in the abdomen. They tend to float legs down.

(which is considerably less healthy, btw..there's a significant amount 
of research into obesity showing that where the fat is is probably as or 
more important than how much of it there is...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 20:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:06:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Characteristics:  STRENGTH
Message-ID: <20020206.121108.-6205.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:13:29 -0800 (PST) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> Thanks for the insight.  Here is the modifications
> based on your observations...
> 
> Value	Strength
> 0	Bed Ridden. Muscles will not respond at all.
>          The character bay be unable to maintain
>          consciousness.
> 1	Infant (Birth-2), Quadriplegic, "Vegetable".
>          Very little muscular exertion.  No ability
>          to apply any significant pressure.
> 2	Toddler (2-6), Extreme Elderly.  Ability
>          to apply exerted pressure to small objects
>          (<50 lbs).  Easily overwhelmed by average
>          strength.
> 3	Child (6-10), Advanced Elderly.  Ability to
>          apply normal pressure to move small objects
>          (<50 lbs).
> 
> Does that seem more appropriate?

Yes, looks fine to me.

> Paul

I've added the following from your next post, and will add my 2 credits
worth in.

>  Should damage results be part of the Strength
> characteristic, or part of the combat system?

The question: Is their strength really gone? I say no. Temporarily
incapacitated, yes, and subject to death if not treated immediately. I
just looked at the assessing damage section of my MT books. The recovery
rate seems ok, because of not losing RAW strength. If raw strength is
lost it can't come back.

What I mean by losing raw strength is what's happening to me with Lou
Gherig's disease, or a Quadriplegic, Paraplegic, paralyzed person, etc
who has no possible way to strengthen those effected muscle groups.

Treating Superficial Wounds
Healing Rate: +1 per day for each characteristic that is injured.
Treating Minor Wounds
Healing Rate: +1 per day for 1 characteristic of the player's choice.
Treating Major Wounds
Surgery is required for all major wounds.
Healing Rate: +1 per day for 1 characteristic of the player's choice.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:11:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:11:47 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]> <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]> <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Sounds like you want a "skill tree" where you have a hierarchy of 
> more general and more detailed skills.

More accurately, an *optional* skill tree.


> I'm not sure what you mean.  What I meant was that when authors
> added new skills, the generally allowed defaults for them except for
> more special things.

Sure, default at a penalty.  So you need more points for your
character to be as competent as they were before the new supplement.
Hence inflation.


> But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having 
> Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built 
> their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.

Maybe we have different play styles: I decide what my character (or
NPC) is doing based on the situation as they see it, *then* look at
the rules to decide how to resolve it.  If the action is something
that Merchant skill would reasonably cover, then I use Merchant skill.
I *don't* decide that since there are no detailed rules, then the
character can't perform that action, or that they can only perform it
with a hefty penalty.

Maybe 99%+ of GMs look at the rules to decide what their characters
*can* do, and choose among the alternatives.  I don't know; maybe so,
and the GURPS sourcebooks are aimed at such people because they sell
better that way.


> >Do note that -45 points is the *maximum* amount a PC can be "screwed
> >up" in a typical campaign.  *Not* the average.
> 
> Well, it is generally regarded as a standard amount and not a "really 
> screwed up character".

The maximum allowed by the rules is generally regarded as "a standard
amount"?  Not around here!  I think I remember a lot of characters who
had the maximum back in our min-maxing days, but not any more.


> But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets 
> make them good at.

And half the population will have their better assets in ST and HT,
which kind of limits their occupation choices.  In fact, even DX would
be rather limiting if you look at the prevalence of real-life jobs
that require IQ-based skills in GURPS.


>  So people in occupations that need high IQ will naturally have IQ
> as one of the highest attributes.

I disagree: the far majority of jobs (about 80%) require what would in
GURPS be IQ-based skills.  Less than 50% of people will have IQ>10.
Even if the entirety of non-IQ-based jobs are filled by people without
IQ>10, then a large proportion in IQ-based jobs will have IQ<=10.

In fact, since there ar emore males in the workforce than females, and
males have higher ST than females on average, it is highly likely that
at least half of the IQ-based jobs are occupied by people who have ST
as their highest stat.


> >Well, here we just have to disagree completely.  Game usefulness is a
> >metagame concept that I believe should be completely divorced from
> >rules that model the game world, such as how long a character needs to
> >practice to become competent.
> 
> I don't think this works in a real game.

My experience says otherwise.  In a real game.

> But clearly we will have to agree to disagree.

Evidently.


> I often have people make rolls at a bonus where I think it will 
> affect the game.

So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as exceptional
conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the other hand are
ubiquitous.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D64@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Trivial Traveller Ship Design
>
>This is a highly simplified design system that should still produce 
>"Travelleresque" ship designs. 

<snip>

I'm not sure how serious you intended this to be taken, but I must admit I
actually like it quite a bit.  While I wouldn't use it to design any
long-term/important ships, it's almost exactly the sort of system I wanted
for designing quick background color 'spear carrier' ships.  One area where
the granularity is a little too high for my tastes: drives don't affect
price? I suspect this could pretty easily be worked into an equation (avg.
of M + J = x MCr/ton; x defined by drive number), but then again,
considering the type of ships this system would be used for (random
encounters, highport-filler, assorted other background color) maybe that
really is more detail than we need.
<


Yeah, it's definitely closer. Thanks! I'm still looking at it in more
detail. 


Some rough notes! ;}

QSDS
     |
     |
   <----- Insert perfect all-purpose Traveller Ship Design System here!
     |
     |
     |
     |
TTSD



Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D56@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
 I know they had support from locals and other people,
but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Paul<

That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm wondering if we made the
list of countries that support terrorism?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
*do* affect roleplaying in my games.<

Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
roleplaying? 

>>>>>> As for not needing to know configuration or length for roleplaying,
>>>>>>I'm  sorry to say that you and I have very different priorities in
>>>>>>that area. I'm  one of those who will pass up the ship with hot
>>>>>>design specs for the dumpy  ship with a name, color text and
>>>>>>*deckplans*. A starship is part of the  roleplaying environment, and
>>>>>>the more the design system can tell me about the  ship ahead of time,
>>>>>>the better.

I agree entirely. As far as I'm concerned a ship doesn't exist unless it
has deckplans.

But the ship design system doesn't need to concern itself with that.
Deckplans can be created regardless of the gaming stats. 


>>>>>>To read your (not quoted) post, my impression is that you are looking
for a 
>>>>>>system somewhere between Book 2 and HG, instead of between HG and MT
(which 
>>>>>>is where QSDS sits).  This isn't a bad thing, but such a system needs
to be 
>>>>>>compatible with some higher detail version so that the gearheads ARE
happy, 
>>>>>>and will do most of YOUR work for you by happily chunking out designs
in high 
>>>>>>detail (since very few will turn down the extra details if someone
else did 
>>>>>>the work...)

You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me. 

1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
higher detail version so the gearheads are happy. 

No it doesn't. I dont care if the gearheads are happy with it! I care if
I'm happy with it. The gearheads have plenty of systems for them. 

You don't make a simple building by starting with a skyscraper and making
all the rooms 1 foot by 1 foot. 

2. That I wont turn down extra details as long as someone else does the
work. 

Not at all true with me. I want to do all the work myself. But I want to do
it with a better design system. Your theory seems to be that the we *want*
the detail (after all, all non-gearheads want to be gearheads but they dont
have the talent or the patience), but dont want to do the work. 

In my case that's not true at all. I DONT want the detail, even if someone
else does it. I want a system that works without the extraneous detail. In
other words, it's not that I don't like the gearhead system because I think
the gearhead system produces bad results. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Simple Design Systems
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D61@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>>>WarpWar was a strategic space game produced by Metagaming 
>>>>>>>These sorts of rules are not what I'd really consider a design
system; it's 
>>>>>>>more a rating or play balance system.  

I personally want a design system to be a play balance system myself. I
dont see these as mutually exclusive goals. If no matter what system I use,
I'm still going to have to play balance them myself, then I can't use ANY
system and none of my players could ever build ships! 

>>>>>>>I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives
enough 
>>>>>>>detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.  

I'm a little confused by this. Why couldn't you use WarpWar ship designs to
draw deck plans? I could. Even the minimum rating of tonnage should give
enough of an idea to draw deckplans. 

>>>>>>>However, with your request (and the WarpWar rules) in mind, I've
whomped* 
>>>>>>>up some really basic Traveller ship design rules.  This rules set
will 
>>>>>>>appear in a follow-up posting tonight, and are one-parameter
(volume) 
>>>>>>>rules.  I doubt that it's possible to get Traveller rules more
streamlined 
>>>>>>>than this.  The trade-off is that there is considerable "slop" in
them, 
>>>>>>>even compared to QSDS.  Designs should be within about 20% of
"reality" 
>>>>>>>(except for price, which is estimated).  Very little detail is
supplied, 
>>>>>>>but the design system should be straightforward and very fast to
use.

Cool! I can't wait to see them. 

I'm personally okay with 20%. I dont think it's really possible to get any
closer than that. Even GURPS: Vehicles leaves alot of wiggle room compared
to reality. 

But I'm not looking for reality - I want to build Starships! 

Thanks! I can't wait to check these out!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:41:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Rules of war, Amber zones, etc.
Message-ID: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D55@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>According to GT, Amber Zones *are* sometimes imposed by the Scouts.

>> I believe this is an error; it would certainly be a change from CT
practice.

*** There needs to be SOME way for the Imperial Government to apply travel
designations to certain areas.  I think the Scout Service would reccommend
Amber Zones and I doubt that TAS would ignore the suggestion without good
reason.  It is like real life.  The U.S. Government issues a advistories
about certain areas.  The Scouts would too.<

So when is an "Interdiction Satellite" put up - and who launches it?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 21:59:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:59:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020206215942.35117.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>


--- John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Jeff Hopper wrote:
> <<snip>>
> > 
> >  Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson
> Games
> > product called WarpWar. It was very simple and
> fast. A
> > joy to play.
> >  Damn, now I want to find a copy.
> 
> IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
> copy in high
> school.  Wish I still had it....
> 


Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.

Whopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:10:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <B886E9E9.1CA9%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/6/02 1:41 PM, "Michael Taylor" <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:

> You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me.
> 
> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.

Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
from the other books.

Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
wouldn't be a credibility gap.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:12:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:12:25 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:19:58PM -0800
References: <20020205093334.A11525@4dv.net> <001701c1aeb4$c624a080$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020206151225.B16229@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:19:58PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
>
> Are you going to stop at LaTex?  Why not POD and DocBook/XML too?

Well, LaTeX's the absolute coolest thing ever, so I probably won't
bother with anything but its output formats.

I've got the thing converted; just adding index entries now.
Incidentally, how's that last bit coming along?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
One doesn't expect governments to obey the law because of some
higher moral development.  One expects them to obey the law because
they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged.
                                                 --Michael Shirley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:56:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:56:59  0000
Subject: [TML]  First Campaign
Message-ID: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>

My thinking on the subject is that Traveller trades most on its background. The depth and complexity of the setting is what gives Traveller and edge over the average Sci fi setting. 

I think that the most important thing to do before running the game is to familiarise yourself well with the background. Not only that but, because there's so much of it, you need to decide how your Traveller "feels". What I mean is you have to tecide which bits of the setting are actually going to be significant in your portrayal, and which you're going to fudge. 

As you can see from the list almost everyone's take on the setting is different and in some case conflicting, so take the bist you like and lose the bits that don't interest you. Or, more accurately, you need to decide what level of detail is sufficient in a number of areas.

I know that this sounds like fairly obvious and basic, but in Traveller I believe it can make the difference between a good game and generic sci fi.

As for more specific stuff, like what sort of campaign to run, I can't really offer any advice. One of the joys of Traveller is that you can run just about anything you want and it'll work in the setting.

I'm just rambling now, I'll have a think about some stuff and write something more useful later.


---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 22:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:53:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020113082019.F1924@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b866df8adf48@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:11 AM +1100 2/7/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>  > But isn't that the point?  Effectively, before Far Trader, having
>>  Market Analysis was useless with the 99%+ of the GMs who hadn't built
>>  their own "Far Trader Level" trading rules.
>
>Maybe we have different play styles: I decide what my character (or
>NPC) is doing based on the situation as they see it, *then* look at
>the rules to decide how to resolve it.  If the action is something
>that Merchant skill would reasonably cover, then I use Merchant skill.
>I *don't* decide that since there are no detailed rules, then the
>character can't perform that action, or that they can only perform it
with a hefty penalty.

That isn't the point.  Its how much the skill will be used.   If one 
isn't sure that there will be even one chemistry roll in a campaign, 
then it makes sense to have a broad chemistry skill.  OTOH, if you 
are running an trading game were trading skills are rolled all the 
time, it makes sense to have more than one skill for that.

Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the 
character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because, 
since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other 
character types add it to their concepts.  So in a _trading_ 
campaign, the engineer is unique and irreplaceable, but the trader is 
just some who does trading a bit better and isn't absolutely 
necessary...

>  > But people will tend to go into occupations that their natural assets
>>  make them good at.
>
>And half the population will have their better assets in ST and HT,
>which kind of limits their occupation choices.  In fact, even DX would
>be rather limiting if you look at the prevalence of real-life jobs
>that require IQ-based skills in GURPS.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are 
mostly things that don't appear in a game (accountants, ditch 
diggers, etc.).  I'm not sure what stats real life demands (there are 
a lot of labor jobs that would need ST, a lot of artisan jobs, like 
carpentry, that need DX, some of the higher paying jobs would seem to 
need IQ except professional atheletes).  We are also getting beyond 
the scope of a game that seeks to mostly model PCs.  The fact is that 
I don't think it unlikely that most doctors have above average IQ and 
most marines have above average DX.

>So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as exceptional
>conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the other hand are
>ubiquitous.

I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a 
standard bonus.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 19:22:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:22:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013023356.0.81690800@www.springmail.com>

NOTE: sorry for not just combining this with my previous response, 
but the messages were in separate digests so I'd already sent the 
last one off before I got this one...

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>>1) Sensor Capabilities -- Give appropriate sensor/commo types, ranges, and 
>>effectiveness for each Bridge type.  Should be very easy.
>
>Yes; though adding this information would have bulked up the tables 
>considerably, since it varies for most of the different TLs.  You can 
>assume that the basic bridge uses "Basic" commo and sensors from QSDS.  The 
>standard bridge uses "Improved" commo and sensor fit, while "Military" uses 
>the "Advanced" communications and either "Small Military" or "Medium 
>Military" depending on the size of the hull (small for many hulls under 
>1000 dtons; medium for hulls over 1000 dtons).  Alternatively, consider 
>selecting sensor and commo fit directly from QSDS.

I think that's more detail than I was looking for.  What I had in 
mind was more simple statements along the lines of "Basic bridge 
includes Radio (range: A @ TL10-12, B @ TL13-14, C @ TL15), Passive 
EMS (range: D @ TL10-12, etc.), and Active EMS (range: etc.)", with 
ranges not in actual distances or hex amounts but broad MT-style 
range bands (regional, planetary, system, etc.)  If we're not 
worrying about price, crew, power, or surface area, this shouldn't 
need to be on a table.

>>2) Fuel Tonnage -- Vitally important consideration for merchants.
>
>You can figure the "usual" jump fuel requirement (10% of ship volume per 
>jump number) to keep the jump drives fed.  You can safely assume that ships 
>include scoops if you wish.  Fuel purifiers are not actually figured into 
>any of the tables (subtract 2% from payload for purifiers that take 12 
>hours to purify the ship's jump fuel).

This is what I was looking for, a quick rule of thumb.  I'd actually 
forgotten that the jump fuel calculation is so easy...

>Since the power plant only needs refuelling once a year anyway, 
>just include it in annual maintenance and forget about it.  ;-)

Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
MT).)

>>With those 3 additions I think this system is really just as good as (if 
>>not better than) the original Book 2 system, and all that most 
>>non-gearheads should ever need.
>
>I don't know about that; this system almost requires a calculator (to take 
>the payload percentages).  Both QSDS and Book 2 are easily done with a 
>pencil and paper, since almost all of the calculations are either easy 
>multiplication ("quick, what's 4 times 13?") or simple addition and 
>subtraction.  On top of that, TrivShips doesn't really produce enough 
>detail to draw good deckplans or exteriors of the ship (though your 
>requests for more detail are rapidly approaching this - and also rapidly 
>approaching QSDS).

I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer 
to (and be limited by) entries on a table.  A propos of which, this 
system seems more versatile to me than QSDS -- QSDS gives specific 
detail on a narrow range of ships, whereas this system gives more 
vague detail on a broader range of ships.  I greatly prefer the 
latter approach.  (Another aside: As presented in the T4 rulebook, 
including tables, QSDS takes 11 pages; the copy of TSDS I printed out 
yesterday is only 1.5pp AND lets me design a broader range of 
ships -- to me that's a marked improvement, well worth possibly 
having to use a calculator!)

As for not producing 'enough detail to draw good deckplans or 
exteriors,' who says it doesn't?  We know the size of the ship and 
the rough tonnage amount taken up by various component groups, 
everything else just becomes map-drawer prerogative -- if per the 
rules all configurations are effectively equal, then when drawing the 
ship use whatever config you want. Sure we won't be able to put an 
accurate label on every piece of equipment (i.e. this half-square of 
machinery on the bridge represents fire control for missile battery 
3), but, once again, that's a level of detail I don't care about 
anyway.  This system should produce enough detail to draw deckplans 
as good/detailed/accurate as those in, say, 'Snapshot,' and that's as 
much as I'd want or need for 90+% of ships.  And for that 5-10% where 
I DO want more detail/accuracy in the deckplans, I probably 
would've built those ships using a more detailed design system 
anyway...

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb  6 23:50:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:50:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
References: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C61C14B.53C80DD2@premier.net>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >I started the same post as this twice and canceled both before
> sending. <g> The details that Michael says don't affect roleplaying,
> *do* affect roleplaying in my games.<
> 
> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
> roleplaying?

That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?

Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into a
starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with
(forex) the largest sensor arrays that will fit inside the volume of the
hull, along with Extreme IR masking and multiple  without regard for the
requirements for antenna area.  The same can be said for armor and
mass.  (Indeed, the mass of armor is dependent on the surface area to be
armored; more mass of armor means either less acceleration or more
massive maneuver drives.)

If I see a Type S scout/courier with improbably large sensors and I have
no way of knowing how the designer managed the surface area issue, it
snaps my disbelief suspenders.  YMMV.

<<snip>>
> 
> I agree entirely. As far as I'm concerned a ship doesn't exist unless it
> has deckplans.

You have deckplans for the _Tigress_-class?  If so, I'd like a copy. ;-)

Also, does your deckplan edict apply to starports and cities?  If so, do
you really have reasonably detailed layouts of all the cities in your
campaign?

Both cities and ships can play useful roles in a campaign without having
a detailed layout available.

<<snip>>
> 
> You make two points here, both of which seem dubious to me.
> 
> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.
> 
> No it doesn't. I dont care if the gearheads are happy with it! I care if
> I'm happy with it. The gearheads have plenty of systems for them.

That does it; you're off my Emperor's Birthday x-mail list! ;-) [See my
sig file.]

Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
these ships, you can't build it."  I enjoy gearheading; you apparently
don't.  Is your gaming happiness more important than mine?  If we create
simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to make
sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.

Note also that an extremely simple design sequence is likely to have
trouble with ships over a couple thousand dtons; designing an AHL, let
alone a _Tigress_, with a simple design system is unlikely to give
plausible results.
> 
> You don't make a simple building by starting with a skyscraper and making
> all the rooms 1 foot by 1 foot.

Perhaps not, but the same principles of architecture apply whether
you're building a storage shed or a skyscraper.  Forex, you still have
to take into account the stresses on the load-bearing members, even
those these are relatively trivial for the storage shed and quite
significant for the skyscraper.

Of course, these factors make it easier to kit-bash a storage shed (or
even a small home) than a skyscraper.  Similarly, kit-bashing a
_Beowulf_ is easier than kit-bashing a _Plankwell_.
> 
> 2. That I wont turn down extra details as long as someone else does the
> work.
> 
> Not at all true with me. I want to do all the work myself. But I want to do
> it with a better design system. Your theory seems to be that the we *want*
> the detail (after all, all non-gearheads want to be gearheads but they dont
> have the talent or the patience), but dont want to do the work.
> 
> In my case that's not true at all. I DONT want the detail, even if someone
> else does it. I want a system that works without the extraneous detail. In
> other words, it's not that I don't like the gearhead system because I think
> the gearhead system produces bad results.

Details that you consider extraneous may well be vital to another
campaign, and vice versa.  Whose details shall we dump, then?  Far
better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details, even if
only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.

For instance, in a merchant campaign, it may be sufficient simply to
declare that military ships can normally detect merchants before the
merchant can detect the military ship.  OTOH, in an Imperial Navy
campaign, such rules-of-thumb are insufficient.  The quality of one
ship's sensor suite over her opponent's may well spell the difference
between which ship wins and which ship dies.

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 00:51:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:51:28 -0600
Subject: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
References: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C61CF90.FE9D1249@ameritech.net>




> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:21:16 -0700
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Spelling (was Re: Son of MT Ship Design question)
> 
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:19:00AM -0600, David Shayne wrote:
> >
> > Different spell checker actually.  I very recently decided to try a
> > new email reader.  Although I doubt that it makes that much of a
> > difference as I suspect that cannons as the plural for cannon is in
> > far more common use than the word canon which doesn't get used much
> > outside of theology and the occasional rpg setting discussion.
> 
> It's commonly used, alright--but it's still wrong. 

>From "Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Tenth Edition" paperback
copyright 1993,

cannon n, pl cannons or cannon

Which makes it correct enough for me. 

> a spiel chucker 

This would be a german who throws games? Yes?

ObTrav is there an Office of Galanglic Compliance?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:08:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Semi-OT: Queen Elizabeth II's Golden Jubilee
Message-ID: <3C61D37F.ED449377@premier.net>

I just read the following article on National Review Online:

http://www.nationalreview.com/jos/jos020602.shtml

ObTrav: Parallels with Strephon's Golden Jubilee (in the GTU, since he
tragically never celebrated his Golden Jubilee in the Rebellion
timeline).

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:15:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <3C61C14B.53C80DD2@premier.net>
References: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D5D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206170940.02a041b0@mail.verizon.net>

Has anyone thought about doing ship design patterns similar to the concepts 
used in Christopher Alexander's "A Pattern Language"?  It seems like there 
must be some sort of common method of placing bridges, controls, etc. that 
could be described as a pattern (possibly varying from race to race).  Just 
some random thoughts.

Comments, spare change, appreciated.

Charles


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:56:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:56:09 +0800
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <000001c1aec2$91dc8000$6401a8c0@goca>
References: <3C608203.AE632D7E@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207095007.00a09990@localhost>

I have a .txt version of the complete game on my computer.  (Not a computer 
game, just a transcription of the game into several .txt files).  I don't 
remember where I got it, but it must be available on the Net.  Maybe this 
is 
it?  <http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/gc00/reviews/warpwar.html>. 
It's quite complete for a "review."

Also, a search turned up this: 
<http://www.smith-house.org/boardgames/WarpWar1.html>.  Pretty nifty.

Personally, I always liked Winchell Chung's artwork for the game much more 
than the actual game itself.  His designs influenced a lot of my own.

-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rients)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:50:50 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10130466503c61dd7a42f3d@mail.isupportisp.com>

>From: "Robert Kondrk" <rkondrk@hotmail.com> 
>Hello Jeff, and welcome. :) 

>>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net> 
>>Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would anybody have 
>>any advice to offer? 

>Before I can offer you any advice I need to know something. What's the 
>gaming experience/background of your players? Is it similar to yours? 

>Bob Kondrk 

Good question, Bob.  Here's my gaming crew in a nutshell.

Player 1: 15-20 years D&D, Palladium Fantasy.  MAY have played Traveller in the eighties, but he was also smoking a lot more weed then than he does now, so he doesn't quite remember whether he played it or not.  Maybe it will all come back to him when we start dicing up characters.  Served one term in the US Navy and pretty much hated it.

Player 2: One year with D&D 3rd edition.  Razor sharp mind for economics.  Master's degree in tax accountancy, currently in law school studying tax law.

Player 3: 10 years D&D, Hero System, Call of Cthulhu.  Knows a lot more about militaria and sci-fi than me.  Through careful planning and wicked manipulation of the magic rules, came very close to running roughshod over my last Greyhawk campaign.  (But it was a fun ride.)

Any idea what sort of damage these guys can do?

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 01:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 01:57:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F53GHVHYt2gYCL6ntBs000102c2@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     As promised last year (yikes), here's the final part of my fervid 
flight of fancy, the "Wounded Colossus".  I realized that I made a huge 
error in not posting this dreck all at once.  I had thought that by posting 
it in manageable bites all sorts of interesting threads would be spun off.  
Alas, that was not to be.
     This final part of WoCo will examine the pace and extensiveness of 
reform in the post-Assassination Third Imperium, Strephon's search for an 
Imperial Heir, Strephon's answer to the question of where he was during the 
Assassination, and a few odds and ends.


The Pace of Reform

     How quickly will the Strephonic Reforms take root within the Imperium 
and how extensive will they be?  The short answer remains, as always, it 
depends!
     You would have noticed that I divided the reforms into three major 
blocs, even though some of the details of each reform may have belonged to 
another.  One example would be the New Moots' oversight of the nobility, it 
is mentioned in under the reforms to the nobility and not with the political 
reforms.
     My dividing the reforms into these rough blocs did have follow a method 
of sorts.  The reforms are discussed in order of their acceptance; the 
reforms in communications will be easier than the political reforms, which 
will be easier in turn than the reforms to the nobility.
     The extensiveness of each bloc of reforms would follow this same 
heirarchy.  Jump6 communications would be seen Imperium-wide relatively 
quickly, followed by the set-up of the New Moots.  Some areas may choose not 
to take part in the New Moots program, but would still be tied into the 
jump6 x-boat net.  Finally, the reforms to the nobility would lag behind the 
other two, largely depending on how the local nobility views the Emperor's 
policies.  There could be areas in which the nobility fight or delay any 
reform to their powers as well as others that quickly accept Strephon's 
policies.
     One good rule of thumb would be to both accelerate the pace of the 
reforms and increase the area of their acceptance wherever the Imperium has 
had to recover it's territory.  With the damage done to the  institutions 
there, Strephon would have a free hand to appoint new, and more tractable, 
officials.
     Ironically enough, Ilelish, whose treason started this all, would be 
reformed more rapidly and more extensively than any other region of the 
Imperium.  Another area that would see great changes would be the Old 
Expanses.  Most of the Imperial nobility there surrendered to the Solomani 
and would have been purged, thus giving Strephon a clean slate on which 
work.
     Just as the Imperium is not a seamless monolith, the Strephonic Reforms 
will not applied as such.  There will be areas that, for reasons of politics 
or for cultural reasons, do not wish to participate.


The Imperial Heir

     Strephon is nearly 70 years old when he returns to the Throne.  He will 
have many immediate problems, but the one closest to him is also one of the 
most pressing.  He needs an Heir, a designated successor, and he needs one 
quickly.
     Strephon's father, Paulo, lived into his nineties, so the Emperor may 
have another two decades on the Throne.  The pressures of ruling the 
post-Assassination Imperium may shorten that however.  The line of 
succession to the Throne needs to be cleared up soon.
     There are several ways Strephon can go about finding an heir.  He could 
marry again and produce the Heir, he could simply designate one of his 
living relatives as the Heir, he could adopt a likely prospect as the Heir, 
or he could create the Heir by other means.  After looking at these options, 
I believe he has only one real choice, creating an Heir by other means.
     An Imperial marriage would kick off a round of infighting among the 
major families of the realm that neither Strephon or the Imperium can ill 
afford.  Each group would want the next Empress and next Heir to come from 
their bloodline.  The machinations, backbiting, and palace intrigues that an 
Imperial bridal hunt would engender could do nothin but harm to the Imperium 
at this stage.  A new Empress is not the answer.
     Adopting an Heir or designating a living relative as one would be 
equally risky.  Both would mean bringing an adult into the most private 
councils of the Imperium.  Whether Strephon and the Heir wished it or not, 
factions would develop overnight between those who believed themselves to be 
following one or the other.  Once again, the Imperial leadership would be 
seen as a bunch of squabbling ninnies, too busy fighting over their own 
perks and percieved slights to be bothered with saving the Imperium.
     While creating an Heir, via in vitro fertilization and whatever 
surrogates, human or mechanical, are available in the 57th century has it's 
own problems, they are least put off until the Heir comes of age.  We know 
that the necessary materials are at hand for such a project.  Indeed, the 
materials may be available in many parts of the Imperium.  Strephon was able 
to fashion Avery at Usdiki naming the late Iolanthe as his mother.  What's 
more, Margeret was able to bear twins in her faction capital and announce 
that Strephon was the father.
     The announcement of the birth of the Heir, perhaps a year after 
Strephon's return to the Throne, will be a cause for great rejoicing among 
the Imperial people.  The news that Strephon and the late Iolanthe again 
have a child will be seen fitting.  The people will know that, like them, 
the Emperor also has a hostage to the future.
     Whether the Wounded Colossus Heir will be male or female, enhanced, as 
Avery was, or not is entirely up to you.  In my notes long ago, I settled 
the problem of the Heir easily enough, but left the details deliberately 
murky.
     Two problems left for the future of the Wounded Colossus timeline will 
be the relationship between Strephon and the Heir and the possibility of a 
regent is Strephon dies early.  Both could work against Strephon's legacy.  
An embittered Heir may come to see Strephon's work as wrong and work to undo 
it even before taking the Throne.  A regent, holding the Throne for an 
infant Heir, could easily succumb to the lure of power.


Where were you, Strephon?

     Sooner or later, most like even before regaining the Throne, Strephon 
will need to explain why he wasn't in the Throne Room on the day of the 
Assassination.  This "explanation" will be tricky at best.
     Strephon and his adivsors are most definitely not going to reveal the 
existence of Longbow and the visions/signals recieved there.  They're asking 
the people of the Imperium to enter in upon a decades long struggle, 
revelaing that the apocalypse in due around 1200 won't help matters.  So, 
the explanation cannot even hint about Longbow.
     Yet, the reason Strephon was away must seem weighty enough.  Simply 
announcing that the Emperor had slipped off to bowl a few frames won't cut 
it.  The Emperor must be seen to be on the job at all times.
     I tentatively penciled in the Cymbeline chips as Strephon's excuse for 
his absence.  That was well before TNE used that same lifeform to destroy 
Traveller as we knew it, however.  I thought the "discovery" of a sentient 
artificial lifeform would be "weighty" enough to pass as a reasonable 
excuse.  Strephon would let it be known that he had been attending a 
conference regarding the sentience of the Cymbeline chips and leave it at 
that.
     Whether you use the Cymbeline excuse or not is up to you.  I'm sure any 
plausible story will fit into the setting; a secret weapons demonstration, 
sitting in judgement on a high peer, taking an emergency petition on a 
critical subject, a meeting insisted upon by an alien ambassador from one of 
the other Major Races, etc.  The plausible explanations easily made.


Strephon the man

     After posting the first part of the this flight of fancy, I was stunned 
to find that people were interested in Strephon as a person, particularily 
in his personality.
     The Strephon the public sees, and to the Emperor everyone is the 
public, may not be the actually Strephon.  The post-Assassination Strephon 
has become the Imperium's Marble Man.  He is the living embodiement of duty 
and honor.  He never shows any strong emotions, he never laughs, never 
smiles, never cries.  His always unfailingly polite, perfectly correct in 
behavior and actions.
     His eyes are his best weapons.  When someone complains about the burden 
they are asked to carry or the size of the problem they must tackle or the 
impossibility of the task they have been given, Strephon merely looks at 
them with a star that seems to bare their souls.  The pain, grief, and 
determination they show can overwhelm even those who work with him daily.  
He doesn't need to stare at anyone very often.
     The Imperial family's quarters in the Palace were destroyed along with 
the Ilelish Guard.  Lucan began a restoration during his brief Usurption, 
but Strephon has not bothered to complete it.  The other parts of the Palace 
damaged in the fighting have been long repaired and the Palace is still used 
for every purpose but one, Strephon no longer lives there.  He has taken 
over part of the IN command center below the Palace has his quarters.  
There, in a suite of a few small rooms, the Emperor leads a very monastic 
personal life.
     What does the Emperor do when he's alone?  Only his valet knows, and 
it's not talking.
     Of course, all of this could simply be the "spin" put out by the 
Emperor's PR men.  He could actually be slowly sliding down a path of 
madness, driven by his grief and anger.  After all, Strephon was Lucan's 
uncle...


     Well, folks, that all of it.  I do hope you use this to goose along you 
campaigns or maybe even kick off a few others.  As always, this material is 
placed by me, the chucklehead who dreamt it up, in the public domain.  Use 
it however you wish and have fun.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:33:06 +0000
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <F189aiywklYOMgviZQk0000e718@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     If I could ask one small boon from all of you interested in doing 
something "Wounded Colossus"?  Would you mind cleaning up all the spelling 
errors and grammatical gaffes?  That will make me seem less of a goon then I 
really am.
     Chalk it up to the vanity if a grey-headed fat man...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:06:06 +0000
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <F91JbrfBsYT6kYeJHyD0000ff18@hotmail.com>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:16:05 -0800, "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

     "If Mr. L. E. W. would like to grant permission I will make it
vailable on the site below or to other distribution systems as the author 
selects."


Sir,

     You have my permission to do whatever you wish with the Wounded 
Colossus material.  Actually, you never even needed that!  As Mr. Holmes 
pointed out, I have placed the entire mess in the public domain.
     I was puzzled, pleased, and embarrassed after reading all the WoCo 
inquiries today. (I've been away visiting one of the less savory portions of 
our weary world.)  Anyone who wishes to host, post, fold, spindle, or 
mutilate WoCo in any manner has my blessing.  I was very surprised that so 
many wanted to do it!
     If this little post isn't enough permission for your needs, please feel 
free to contact me off list with your needs.  I'll be happy to send along 
any "do whatever you want with it" messages you may need.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:17:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:17:16 +0000
Subject: [TML] Navy Ship hulls and missions
Message-ID: <F35ywPCf0TYdahn9Lmn0001046c@hotmail.com>

From: hal@buffnet.net

     "Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have 
to exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm 
going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and 
missions for me..."


Hal,

     Very good list.  Sure we could add more missions, but pre-existing 
hulls types could handle the new jobs.  I'd warrant that only a few ship 
classes would be desinged with only a single mission in mind, i.e. battle 
riders.  Most ships will have a primary mission and a whole raft of 
secondary missions on their plate.  Over time, those mission assignments 
will change as the percieved threat does.
     I also like your emphasis on "mission" rather than "size".  I've seen 
far too many lists with entries like "capital ship = 250K dT" on them.  
Exactly what type of ship a ship is thought of will depend far more upon 
it's mission than it's size.  The tonnage for a capital ship at TL13 will be 
far different from that at TL15, but the job will be the same.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:22:58 +0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
Message-ID: <F106Sl1q4gtopWd7KKQ00010117@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

Jeff Yin wrote:  Does anyone have a system designed to resolve High Guard 
ships engaged in fleet scale actions?  The combat system in High Guard is 
somewhat sluggish even for a single large ship, to say nothing
of a BatRon.

     You could try Power Projection (formerly Traveller  Full  Thrust)
from BITS.  This is Full Trust rules for cruiser level combat.


Mr. Trevor,

     That is a nice set of rules.  May I suggest another?
     IIRC, the TNE Battle Rider game had a method for "collapsing" HG2 stats 
into a few factors on a playing chit.  Seeing as you could, theorectically, 
collapse any HG2 design in this manner, you wouldn't limited by size as 
Power Projection is.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:01:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #130
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020206175654.00a8ce58@mail.peak.org>

Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:

>Hmmm...must be kinda like telling the difference between Al Gore and the
>Unibomber...
>
>At 11:26 AM 2/6/2002 +1100, Michael Barry wrote:
> >John
> >Hilarity! Thanks for the laugh -- however I'm not sure how you tell the
> >difference.
> >MB
> >
> >**********
> >From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: NRL (was: Waaay OT: Butterfly Knives)
> >
> >I think you mean The NRA (National Rifle Assossiasion).  The NRL is the
> >National Rifleman Loonies founded by Charles Whitman of Texas in 1966.
> >John Scarlett-

Thank you, Mark.  I intended to write something much more deliberately
offensive in response.  As a Life Member of the NRA, I found Micheal Barry's
comment *extremely* insulting and just hope that I have the opportunity to
return the favor at some point in the future. :^(


         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:01:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:01:51 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Warpwar
Message-ID: <17e.32fb21b.2993481f@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/5/02 3:23:29 PM, tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com 
writes:

> Weird, you just described an old Steve Jackson Games
>product called WarpWar. It was very simple and fast. A
>joy to play.

 Not quite. While Steve *worked* for the company that produced Warpwar 
(Metagaming), he did not design it or ever publish it himself.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:24:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>

Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:45:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 04:45:47 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202070438270.4387-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Loren writes:
>>I happen to think you made a serious mistake in going with the "when the
>>Marines arrive the game is over" paradigm. To me that means that they
>>are more or less useless to me as a GM tool.
>
>In Doug's defense, he did that on my instructions.

Can't blame poor Doug for that, then (Sorry, Doug). I'll blame you
instead, Loren.

 ;-)

As for the size of Marine regiments and the discrepancy in numbers when
compared to FFW, Chris Thrash has managed to convince me that the force
levels in FFW are supposed to be taken literally, but I still think they
are too low (if for no other reason than because they fail to take
population multipliers into account), so having ten (or whatever) times as
many marines is not really a problem.


 Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:49:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:49:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
>actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> I know they had support from locals and other people,
>but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.
...
>That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm wondering if we made the
>list of countries that support terrorism?

  At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.

  OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|

  ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:47:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:47:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F60a6rbmNmgHvnRQguk00001663@hotmail.com>

> >>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>Good question, Bob.  Here's my gaming crew in a nutshell.

<snip>

>Any idea what sort of damage these guys can do?

<chuckle> Well...if they're anything like the guys that I used to GM back in 
high school and college, quite a lot!

Seriously though, here's what I'd recommend:

Given Player #1's antipathy towards the military experience, I'd stay away 
from a merc based game.  Also, given player #2's background, I'd also stay 
away from a mercantile game, since he'd tend to get a little frustrated by 
subtle inconstancies in the game's economic system.  Based on your 
description, #3 might tend to be bit on the "rules lawyer/munchkin" side at 
times.  You might think that it's a bit risky, but I'd respond to an RL by 
keeping the ruleset very vague at first and concentrate more on developing 
lush scenes and rich plot.  Also, resist the tendency for some players to 
leave their characters a mere "cardboard cutouts".  Three of my old players 
tended toward RL/munchkinism, and I had some success combating it by drawing 
them out and encouraging more character detailing.  If an "RL/M" sees their 
character as more than a tool to "win" the game with, it's my opinion that 
they'll stop trying to challenge you and be less inclined to try breaking 
the ruleset.

I'd suggest running a initial scenario that is "quest-like" in its structure 
and goals, to ease the transition somewhat.  Let the plot unfold slowly at 
first, and introduce little tidbits of the ruleset as needed.  Make the 
object of the quest something not overly technological (like a missing 
person, for instance), so that game doesn't get slowed down in explaining 
things.  Keep the first scenario of the campaign short, and make each 
successive one longer and more convoluted as the campaign goes on and the 
experience of your players increases.

I hope that you find some of these suggestions helpful.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 03:59:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 03:59:59 +0000
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup [long]
Message-ID: <F146jDbl2ZL7QRPA8Ka0001031d@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>

     "Guys, this is my take on the Rebellion, all the way to the Collapse.  
There are two versions, one covers an era where Strephon lives, and the 
other where, well, he doesn't."


Mr. Yin,

     I eagerly printed out* both your posts and read them!  Woo-Hoo! Bravo! 
Author! Author!  Superb stuff!  A tip of the battered boater to you, sir!
     Your fine work is now permanently enscounced upon my hard drives, it's 
definitely a keeper!  I especially like the twist of Strephon trying to 
focus on Dulinor while the Imperium unravels behind him.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - I'm enough of a fogey to prefer reading large amounts of text on paper 
as opposed to a monitor.  This means I'll be left further and further behind 
as humanity marches on. (sigh)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:04:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:04:36 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <F91RrLnGXdK04Vjqnlg000100cc@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported 
terrorism."

     "OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any
meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|  "

     "ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?"


Mr. Hudson,

     Jeepers, Star Dreck's "Prime Directive" is starting to look better and 
better.  It's a shame we don't have a parsec or two to put between us and 
the nasties, huh?  8^)

     ObUSA: Any wonder why there has always been a strong isolationist 
streak in US foreign policy?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:11:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:11:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
References: <F106Sl1q4gtopWd7KKQ00010117@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C61FE5F.7040005@yarranet.net.au>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     That is a nice set of rules.  May I suggest another?
>     IIRC, the TNE Battle Rider game had a method for "collapsing" HG2 
> stats into a few factors on a playing chit.  Seeing as you could, 
> theorectically, collapse any HG2 design in this manner, you wouldn't 
> limited by size as Power Projection is.


I loved the idea and put all the HG ships onto index cards but then discovered that 
the game didn't end up playing as well as I thought it would after reading it.

The problem I had with BR were that, because it ignored all but critical hits, 
smaller ships or ships with a lower TL couldn't really affect the opponents capital 
ships at all.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:34:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] The Work of L. E. Whipsnade
In-Reply-To: <F189aiywklYOMgviZQk0000e718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1af90$c25cd620$2f7de40c@loki>

I have a clean copy at the address below. Will be adding the latest
piece of the great saga as I get a chance.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:24:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:24:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
Message-ID: <F207STkYwhgGxg72r3g000003a3@hotmail.com>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

IMTU I disallow them.  I strip out the first two orbits to reflect planets 
consumed during the star's red giant stage, and regenerate any other 
terrestrial planets in the system as per Book 6 "outer zone" parameters.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:48:09 EST
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>

<trentfs@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>
>Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
>MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
>week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
>MT).)

[Barry Ween] OH yeah. [/Barry Ween]

 During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that while 
real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS of 
power on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than compensated 
by the addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of TNE, 
ships still need fuel, but for different things.

 As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its (J+1)x5% 
instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 02:45:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:45:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207095007.00a09990@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c1af81$7dad0ea0$6401a8c0@goca>

I never liked the default map for Warpwar, so I used the huge one that
came with StarForce.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Kronick
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 17:56
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] WarpWar

I have a .txt version of the complete game on my computer.  (Not a
computer 
game, just a transcription of the game into several .txt files).  I
don't 
remember where I got it, but it must be available on the Net.  Maybe
this 
is 
it?  <http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/gc00/reviews/warpwar.html>. 
It's quite complete for a "review."

Also, a search turned up this: 
<http://www.smith-house.org/boardgames/WarpWar1.html>.  Pretty nifty.

Personally, I always liked Winchell Chung's artwork for the game much
more 
than the actual game itself.  His designs influenced a lot of my own.

-- Rachel Kronick




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 05:14:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:14:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <006101c1af96$54381000$6501a8c0@home.com>

>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported
terrorism.

Yes, one person's terrorist is another's revolutionary. Or reporter, as the
case may be (http://allafrica.com/stories/200111260824.html).

>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

Of course, the 3I probably sets the definition.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 05:44:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:44:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <20020206215942.35117.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200202070544.g175iap14171@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/06/02 at 01:59 PM,  Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com> said:

>> IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
>> copy in high
>> school.  Wish I still had it....

>Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
>Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.

Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
company he founded later.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:09:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 06:09:52 +0000
Subject: [TML] HG fleets
Message-ID: <F755h8lbC10wVa7fIwD00007d4e@hotmail.com>

From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au>

     "The problem I had with BR were that, because it ignored all but
critical hits, smaller ships or ships with a lower TL couldn't really affect 
the opponents capital ships at all."


Mr. Webb,

     Drat and double drat!  Nothing but crits on the damage tables?  That's 
taking streamlining a wee bit too far.  Any thoughts on another damage 
system for BR?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:25:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:25:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
References: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206222320.029ac840@mail.verizon.net>

We sweat a lot.

And lie.

A lot.

And mention some Artifact of the Ancients.

Or Grandfather.

Then we lie some more.

;-)

At 10:24 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 06:29:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:29:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: military vision
Message-ID: <200202070627.g176RlU00455@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Subject: Re: TML Digest V2002 #130 
...
>>  Granted, I doubt that anyone of the 1700's could have envisioned the
>>  militaries of today with any realistic accuracy - but the attempt might
>>  have been interesting to see.
>
>"Where is the prince, who can afford so to cover his land with troops for its 
>defense, that a body of 10,000 men descending from the coulds could not cause 
>a great deal of mischief before a force could be assembled to repel them."
>          Benjamin Franklin, 1784, predicts airmobile forces (my paraphrase)

  I talked to a fellow who spent much of the `90's in certain
European archives, looking at the documents for various ancien
regime militaries. Apparently they got lots of helpful ideas for
things resembling tanks, machine-guns, etc., and the main reason
for turning them down usually amounted to "neat idea, and we might
even be able to afford to buy several, but how can we keep them 
effectively deployed?"

  Not a popular reality in some SF/fantasy circles, I suppose,
but there it is.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <000001c1afa6$ff4e2d70$2f7de40c@loki>

Henry J. Lickspittle
Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire

Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position considered necessary at
soonest expediency. Have well-built aspiration to depart this hackneyed
dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are of utmost
plasticity. I await you munificent proffer of employment at the
foundation of mechanical staircase three.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:29:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:29:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part 3
References: <F755h8lbC10wVa7fIwD00007d4e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE73IgUg6rLwrX45NBI00008009@hotmail.com>

Here is part 3, for those who might be following this.  As always, special
thanks to Bruce Johnson, Rupert Boleyn, and Larsen Whipsnade.  Though of
course, special thanks implies a kind of ordinary gratitude to the rest of
list, naturally. . .

By 1120, Strephon's campaign against Dulinor began to meet with real
successes.  Though his initial advance was slowed through the
resource-deprived sections of Zarushagar, Dulinor was unwilling to use the
same tactics in Ilelish itself.  Aided by a few timely defections, the
Imperial fleet cut deep into the sector, reaching Ilelish subsector.  There,
Imperial forces amassed preparing for a campaign reminiscent of the Terran
invasion.

 From Dlan, Dulinor continued to broadcast defiant messages vowing to fight
to the last.  These had all been pre-recorded, the real Dulinor and the
remaining Ilelish fleet still answerable to him retreating into the Verge
sector.  The Archduke's assets had suffered terribly over the last four
years.  Finally, as Strephon reached Ilelish sector itself, several
opportunistic nobles proclaimed the Imperial fleet as liberators, and were
only too happy to show their loyalty by turning against Dulinor.  Using the
time Dlan's resistance purchased, Dulinor intended to draw a new fleet from
the Verge reserve squadrons.  This new force might be able to catch the
Imperial fleet off guard.  With luck, he might even get a chance to engage
Strephon himself.

 As Brzk finished mobilization, Imperial fleets squared off with the Vilani
in Spinward Lishun.  The engagements were small and sporadic.  Brzk's
attempts to draw the Vilani into a decisive engagement proved fruitless.
Carefully orchestrated deep penetration raids, flanking maneuvers, and
retreats kept Vland's fleets always out of reach.  With Corridor's 7 fleets
supporting Ishuggi, Brzk requested reinforcements before a drive towards
Vland itself.  Gushemege and Dagudashaag were each tapped for several
fleets, but local nobles stalled and vacillated while claiming their
compliance.  Strephon was known to refer to these two sectors as "Kentucky
and Missouri," though nobody understood the reference.  For Ishuggi's part,
a Dulinor victory (unlikely as it increasingly seemed) would permit a new
Ziru Sirka, while if Strephon emerged triumphant, the Vilani Archduke could
meekly slip back into the Imperial fold.  In either case, he saw little
reason to move his fleets to the Spinward front.

 The departure of Corridor fleet prompted panic among the local nobility.
The reserve fleets, if acting in coordination, were more than capable of
protecting the sector from the obsolete and poorly led Vargr vessels.
Unfortunately, the local nobles kept the reserve fleets roped around their
own specific fiefs, surrendering the sector to the corsair.  Small islands
of civilization remained where the reserve fleets stayed, or where the local
world's planetary navy proved strong enough to defend the system.  The Vargr
were quick enough to take advantage of this arrangement, pillaging the
undefended worlds and bickering amongst themselves over the spoils.

 In the Spinward Marches, the situation became increasingly grim.  The fall
of Rhylanor in mid 1120 allowed Zhodani forces to catch and destroy several
Corridor fleets early in the next year.  The remaining forces from Corridor,
deviating from their original course, would not enter the field of combat
until mid 1121.  Meanwhile, the drive to liberate Efate met with staunch
resistance from Zhodani colonial squadrons.  Regina subsector was the
setting of several major engagements, most inconclusive.  As 1120 became
1121, Zhodani forces remained in control of Efate and Allel, but for the
most part had been forced back to Jewell subsector.  The brightest news from
1120 in the Marches came from the heroic Imperial 208th fleet, which moved
up from the five sisters to liberate the Darrian's and force Sword World
forces back to defend their homeworlds.

 1120 also saw a general increase in the intensity of Solomani attacks.
Confederation estimates predicted an end to the Ilelish affair by the
closing weeks of 1122 at the latest.  Motivated by this projection, Confed
planners hoped to push up to rimward Diaspora.  This would allow the
Solomani to offer a peace treaty that ceded the coreward sections of the
Solomani Rim back to the Imperium, but would have a prewar net affect of as
many as 8 subsectors for the Confederation.  Adair continued to offer a
staunch resistance, and with the Vegan enclave for support, looked unlikely
to fold in the near future.  A plan was then developed to encircle the Vegan
Autonomous Region, bypassing the Solomani Rim front by pouring in through
the Old Expanses.  Though promising on paper, the concept ran afoul of
several Imperial squadrons still operating in the area.  Solomani hopes were
shattered when the Imperium won a crushing victory at Nicosia/Old Expanses,
capturing the naval base with the aid of ingenious irregular personnel (read
PCs) and catching the emerging Confederate fleets off guard.  Nicosia's
significance as a 57th century Cannae was not lost on hopeful Imperials,
sparking a wave of patriotism.  Coreward nobles began resisting the
Confederation, petitioning aid from the then unengaged fleets in Delphi.
However, without Duchess Margaret, the response was scattered and varied.
Some fleets crossed the border, a few even going as far as engaging the
Solomani.  Most, however, chose to sit and wait.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:27:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:27:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, setup [long]
References: <F146jDbl2ZL7QRPA8Ka0001031d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE39rQ9CjdW3lxEc6fQ00007fcc@hotmail.com>

Thanks Larsen.  Your WoCo thread actually inspired me to give a try linking
the previous Rebellion discussions.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:39:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:39:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <B8876F39.23B76%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
location.  Please feel free to comment.

see: http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/aiming.html

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 08:36:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:36:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
References: <F60a6rbmNmgHvnRQguk00001663@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE53MEn94zlsdNwNZB3000061d0@hotmail.com>

Yeah, Bob's (I can call you Bob, can't I) advice is really quite sound.  I
remember introducing a group to Traveller by having one of their passengers
end up being noble born.  His family were all on the line White Fawn, which
was destroyed by nefarious means.  Each game focused drew the players deeper
into the Traveller universe as they dealt with finding this child back.  At
first, once they figured out they had a noble, greed was their primary
motivation.  Still, by the end they had become somewhat protective of the
little tyke.  Anyway, I meant to chime in by suggesting that you make sure
all the loose threads link to elements of the Traveller setting (or what
elements you will use to create your universe) that way they have to learn
the setting to deal with it.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:26:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
In-Reply-To: <000001c1afa6$ff4e2d70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>

My apologies for taking up bandwidth with an off-topic request but you
are a very knowledgeable and connected crowd.

I am looking for the source code for an ANSI text game called Tele
Arena.  Specifically version 5.6d.  This is for the sysop of The Keep
BBS, based in Portland, Or.  (telnet://thekeep.net)

The sysop has legally purchased the software (currently running) and
paid extra for exclusive rights for source code (which was never
delivered as promised).  Since then, Sean Ferrel, the author of this
game, has dropped out of sight and removed his website.

I am asking for any help, be it the source code itself, a link to it,
information on its whereabouts, a lead, etc.

Thank you all for your valuable time.

Jory

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 07:49:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:49:01 -0000
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
References: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c1afb4$918b8ae0$bcd1883e@fabian>

From: <GypsyComet@aol.com>

>  During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that
while
> real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS
of
> power on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than
compensated
> by the addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of
TNE,
> ships still need fuel, but for different things.
>
>  As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its
(J+1)x5%
> instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

TNE used the same formula as MT then. Personally, I prefer that formula to
a flat 10J%/parsec. More advanced drives should be more efficient.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:19:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
In-Reply-To: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <000201c1afb8$84d8f9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

Coincidence or illuminati hint.
404 hits at Google
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Tele+Arena+Source+5.6d
most of 'em looking for the source




for them that haven't cared HTTP 404 is file not found.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:41:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:58 +1300
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202061641_MC3-F0F0-4D56@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> > FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
> > actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> >  I know they had support from locals and other people,
> > but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.

Then the New Zealanders there almost outnumbered you !
And the British SAS had quite a few people there too.

There may have been only 100-150 combat soldiers actually
fighting on the ground, but they wouldn't have been there without
the several thousand sitting off the coast in carrier groups or
the thousand-odd holding and operating the airfield.

Heck, there were more than 150 US troops guarding a few Al
Quaeida fighters in Cuba.

> That's because we teamed up with terrorists. I'm
> wondering if we made the list of countries that
> support terrorism?

The US was put on _that_ list years, if not centuries, ago.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 09:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206170940.02a041b0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Charles McKnight wrote :

> Has anyone thought about doing ship design patterns
> similar to the concepts used in Christopher
> Alexander's "A Pattern Language"?  It seems like there
> must be some sort of common method of placing bridges,
> controls, etc. that  could be described as a pattern
> (possibly varying from race to race).  Just some random
> thoughts.

It's an obvious idea, but I suspect most Traveller ship designers
are gearheads and engineers at heart, and something as fuzzy as a
pattern is not really acceptable to them.

Remember most building architects think Alexander is a loonie,
it's only software designers that are really keen on him.

If you have read Alexander's original works, you realize his
architectural patterns are not as sharply defined as software
patterns are.

Part of the reason for this is that software patterns commonly
have only one or two optimum implementations in any particular
language. Architectural patterns, and presumably, ship design
patterns could be implemented in a huge variety of ways, so only
really describe general trends.

Pattern concepts however, been used in the design of the modular
cutter, and in the Naval Architects handbook for T4, even if the
writers dod know they were doing it ! <grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:26:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:26:37 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]> <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the 
> character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because, 
> since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other 
> character types add it to their concepts.

That makes me more convinced than ever that we have irreconcilable
differences in play styles.  I come up with the concept *before*
looking at the rules.  If the concept wasn't for a Trader, then I
won't add the skill just because it looks cheap.

Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.  Even
in Basic set you would expect such a character to have Administration,
Merchant, Area Knowledge (several) and at least one shipboard skill.
There is no need for 3 *more* skills that basically just split up
Merchant and dilute points further.


> I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are 
> mostly things that don't appear in a game

They appear in *my* games.  For my GURPS Space game, I have a job
table extrapolated from real census data.  This is quite useful for
generating NPCs.  Since I have already done the work, I can tell you
that in 2001 Australia, 83% of jobs are in GURPS terms primarily
covered by IQ-based skills.  This is not likely to decrease in the
future; quite the opposite in my opinion.


> We are also getting beyond the scope of a game that seeks to mostly
> model PCs.

We are not getting beyond the scope of a game that seeks to be generic
and universal, particularly using the same rules for NPCs as for PCs.


>  The fact is that I don't think it unlikely that most doctors have
> above average IQ and most marines have above average DX.

I would agree that doctors would have above-average IQ in GURPS terms.
After all, you need to pass years of exams and competition with other
prospective entrants just to get into medical school, let alone pass!
Those who have average intelligence or less would almost never make
it.

I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
or not.

>> So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as
>> exceptional conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the
>> other hand are ubiquitous.
>
> I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a
> standard bonus.

I was referring to sourcebooks, not the basic rules.  Even then, the
aiming 'bonus' is nearly always teamed up with a very substantial
penalty due to range.  Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case,
since if you don't aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!  There are
also about 20 other penalties, at least a few of which apply in any
given situation.  I've previously posted much about this particular
bit of brokenness to rec.games.frp.gurps, such as the fact that going
by the modifiers in GURPS ranged combat, I must have a base skill of
about 26 in throwing rocks and hence a DX of well over 20.

To look at a sourcebook, for example Vehicles (the closest sourcebook
I have handy).  I'll start working through the 'vehicle action' rules.
Let's see: the first 10 pages of that section have 1 skill bonus (for
neural interface systems, which I'm sure you'd agree is an exceptional
condition) and 43 penalties, many of them cumulative!

(plus many tens of default penalties that I'm not counting,
e.g. Piloting Ultralight / Glider / Light Airplane / Heavy Airplane /
Helicopter / Autogyro specialisations as separate skills.  So how does
a friend of mine know how to fly them all well enough to instruct in
any of them?  100 years worth of training?  He's only 45!)

I've been in a situation where GURPS would have me make a driving
control roll at -9!  Based on my estimated DX and a maximum
corresponding driving skill, the GURPS result would be that the car
would almost certainly vault into the air for 5-30 metres and land on
a random orientation.  As it happened, I was able to recover control,
to which GURPS assigns a 0.5% chance.  This is simply due to the fact
that penalties in GURPS *far* outweigh bonuses.  In fact, there were a
number of factors in my favour which the sourcebook completely
ignores.  I don't have a skill of 20.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:56:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:56:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trade Amounts
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020205211410.42728.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> <ML-2.3.1012944181.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020207215658.C22381@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> We don't really know what industrial base is required to efficiently
> produce TL 12 goods, but if one TL 12 pop-A world can't manage it,
> three (Trin, Vincennes, and Mora) probably can't either, and trade
> from the central imperium is very limited.

I'm not so sure about that last statement.  The main body of the
Imperium has an equivalent WTN of about 8.7 as far as I can tell, and
an average distance of about 65 parsecs from Trin (about as far as you
can get and still be within the Imperium :)

With Trin's 6.5 WTN, that makes BTN about 11.7, for about a TCr per
year worth of trade.  That's without taking into account the trade
bonus between In and Ni worlds or the fact that 65 is really close to
the bottom end of the scale for the distance modifier.  I suspect the
total core trade would actually be more than BTN 12 and hence total
about 2-3 TCr.

Still a really tiny fraction of its GWP (<1%), but at least comparable
with its trade within the Spinward Marches and Deneb!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 12:02:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 04:02:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
In-Reply-To: <000001c1af81$7dad0ea0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <20020207120225.26399.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com>

<sigh>...all this talk of WarpWar and Star
Force...I've gone all nostalgic for high
school...thanks for the link to the WarpWar page...now
if I can find somebody to play it with at work...the
return of Pocket Games (whee!)


=====
I don't jog. It makes the ice jump right out of my vodka tonic.
http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html
"Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket, we're on the fucking moon!" - Neil Armstrong, quoted in "The Onion"

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 12:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:43:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>

Mr Whipsnade's comments in Wounded Colossus about the prospects of an
imperial regency reminded me of something that I was thinking about last
week.

Empress Margaret I was four when she succeeded Zhakirov.  Clearly there was
a regency.  Who was the regent?

There is an obvious candidate:  Antiama!

Have you ever wondered why the Sollies get so excited about her?  A *Vilani*
ruled the Imperium for about 15 years!

This isn't canon, of course, but it's a logical progression from it, don't
you think?

I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really interesting.
One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra/Zhakirov stuff
in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be ignored, but that
can mostly be dealt with by the "subjective viewpoint" excuse and a damp
sponge.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:42:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:42:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <F37zsLqIfQdmEB4HGXA000151ae@hotmail.com>

>From: "Jeff Yin" <sharpenedstick@hotmail.com>
>Yeah, Bob's (I can call you Bob, can't I) advice is really quite sound.

Thanks for the complement, and *please* call me Bob.  I don't really like 
"Robert" or "Rob" very much.

>Anyway, I meant to chime in by suggesting that you make sure
>all the loose threads link to elements of the Traveller setting (or what
>elements you will use to create your universe) that way they have to learn
>the setting to deal with it.

That's a good point too.  One other thing I'd like to suggest (that I only 
recently realized was missing in my own games all these years thanks to a 
well-designed character info sheet that Tod Glenn had me fill out for my 
character in his PBeM) is to make sure that you encourage each of your 
players not only to develop their character's backgrounds, but also to 
*specifically* establish their short-term and long-term goals (something 
more meaningful than "I want to become rich and powerful", BTW).  Take those 
goals, and subtly weave them into your plot.  That way, you'll keep your 
players interested, and it'll help to prevent your campaign from fizzling 
out down the road.  I used to glean my PCs goals from gameplay interaction 
and each character's background, but in retrospect I don't think doing it 
that way was very effective.


Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:30:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:30:21 -500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020205083636.006e0e58@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050725500.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <200202071455.g17EtQN24546@sun.ebtech.net>

I agree with Douglas.
The marines in FFW are raiders not ground pounders.
What the game needs is a rule for knocking out undefended bases 
so you load up your regiments on J6 cruisers and go looking for 
some bases to kill with a 0 iniative admiral.

The marines are super constabulary in peacetime and raiders in 
war they do not appear to be used as strikers and are a waste on 
garrison except as embassy guards.  Cadre is the mission of the 
Sylean Rangers.

I always though it was odd that the reinforcements in FFW did not 
include ANY interface troops marine or army.   Makes it harder to 
retake a world.

FFW version 2 anyone?


> At 07:34 AM 02/05/02 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Since they appear to be outnumbered about 1000:1, the Marines may need a
> >little bit of support.
> >
> >Hmm... OK, maybe only 500:1. I see that GF put the size of a Marine
> >regiment at 5,000, twice what the counters in FFW imply. (Or a lot more
> >if you think their battledresses makes each of them worth more in combat
> >than a standard TTL15 infantryman).
> 
> OK, enough.  Hans, I did not write GF intending on making it a slavish
> paen to the counter mix in 5FW.  I wrote in mind of the real way that
> armies work, and hoping to make it a good roleplaying experience.
> 
> As for the Marines effectiveness in combat, if you really need a
> justification, then put it down to equipment, taining an morale, and use
> in combat.
> 
> Ever hear of the US Army's Airborne Rangers?  These are light infantry
> units that, used correctly, have a punch that far outweighs their apparent
> strength in numbers.  I see the Marines in the same roles.  They are
> trained as raiders, hitting high-value targets with overwheloming speed
> and ferocity.  Their training and flexibility makes them a force to be
> reckoned with.  When that 5 - 15 Marine unit is in combat in 5FW, it isn't
> toe to toe with the Zhos.. it will get slaughtered that way.  The Marines
> are hitting specific targets with the intent of causing maximum
> disruption.  In fact, in a real war, most of the Marines would be in
> company sized forces raiding the rear areas!
> 
> You cannot scale that to a strategic wargame covering dozens of worlds!
> 
> The Marine Line Regiment in GF was written with a single source of
> canonical information: Loren's article on Marine Task Force structure in
> JTAS 12.  The rest of the Regiment was sorted out over some very good beer
> with a friend who happens to have been a Royal Marine.  We played around
> with TO&Es for half the night.  (The bagpipes were his idea, mostly.  You
> ever hear "Scotland the Brave" played by a drunken Marine at 0200?  My
> neighbors have!) --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:24:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:24:46 -500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C604E34.4080205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <200202071449.g17EnpN23232@sun.ebtech.net>

I would assume F14 rather than F18 due to range considerations.
I wondered why the raids often consisted of only 10 planes then 
found information that that was how many F14's were available for 
strike missions.  I believe the F18 does not have the range to hit 
targets in Northern Afghanistan.

> Of course, overwhelming air superiority never hurt.
> 
> "Uhh 'Stennis'? There's an arty position right here" paints with laser
> designator "that's giving us a hassle. Could you take care of it please?"
> 
> (wait 1/2 hour)
> 
> Screeeee--BOOOOOM! as a F18 drops a 2000lb bomb down arty's muzzle.
> 
> "Thanks Stennis!"
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 14:41:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:41:55 -500
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <200202071507.g17F79N26864@sun.ebtech.net>


Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the 
atmosphere?
When I used JTAS#10's table I got 1 off planet army for both Mora 
and Trin (and only by fudging a bit) which is what the counter mix 
gives them in colonial armies.  This makes it hard for Mora to affect 
Trin since the other TL15 worlds have small armies and the other 
high pop worlds have lower TL's.

> >The Unified Army of Mora has six lift infantry field armies.  Assuming
> >that there is transport avalible for three of them (given the counter mix
> >in 5FW, this is conservative), this gives a force of 1.5 million troops.
> 
> According to JTAS#10, p. 24-26, Mora would have 50,000 battalions. 1,500
> of those would be available for off-world operations. That would be three
> field armies of 250,000 men each.
> 
> >A quick and dirty calculation gives me 10 field army sized formations
> >defending Trin.  But once the Imperium gains orbital control, the
> >advantage shifts.
> 
> The source quoted above makes it 100 field armies. The same 50,000
> battalions, in fact (but only because the populations are the same).
> 
> Incidentally, the table in JTAS#10 and the one in _Ground Forces_ both
> have one very curious aspect (unless there's a rule somewhere that I
> missed): A TTL15/GTL12 world with 1 billion inhabitants has 5,000
> battalions (or in GF's case, raw battalion equivalents). So does one with
> 2 billion. And 3 billion. And so forth up to 9 billion. But the day the
> census reaches 10 billion, the government goes out and raises another
> 45,000 battalions...
> 
> I'd like to suggest that it should 5,000 per billion, not 5,000 for 1-9
> billions (and the equivalent adjustment for other entries to the table).
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

Say like the FUZION System?

If so, any hints or tips?

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:08:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 08:08:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202071607.g17G7IU08518@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:04:36 +0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>     "ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?"
...
>     Jeepers, Star Dreck's "Prime Directive" is starting to look better and 
>better.  It's a shame we don't have a parsec or two to put between us and 
>the nasties, huh?  8^)

  What - and get closer to the K'kree & Kafer?!

>     ObUSA: Any wonder why there has always been a strong isolationist 
>streak in US foreign policy?

  Because the New Englanders were getting tired of grabbing their
ankles whenever the expansionists were given their heads?

  How many border regions of the 3I can share *that* sentiment? :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 15:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <F134vPeSHvnNFmXNZ6000000df4@hotmail.com>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
>location.  Please feel free to comment.

I think it's a *great* idea that could add a lot of drama and color to 
combat, and brings to CT something I really like from the GURPS mechanics.  
I also think that not applying damage multipliers and special effects by 
location to the PCs is a good thing, since in my opinion combat is already 
deadly enough in CT.  However, I don't think it's a good idea to just apply 
them to NPCs either, for fear of upsetting game balance.  Overall, I really 
like this and intend to give it a try it the next time I GM.

Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:09:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 08:09:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202071607.g17G7bU08603@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>The US was put on _that_ list years, if not centuries, ago.
...
 " >At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism."

  OK, *almost* everyone, but you might not be so smug if livestock could
lodge complaints at The Hague. 

  ObTrav: "If we can prove that it's sentient, then the ISPCA won't 
have a case, your Lordship!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 16:54:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:54:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <F132fMCa3Eky00sp0yx00000fd6@hotmail.com>

>From: Gonzalez <doctor_romulus@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
>Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:03:16 -0800 (PST)
>
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

Back in '91 I ran a short Traveller campaign using AD&D mechanics that 
seemed to work fairly well.  I might have some of the old game data left 
around somewhere if anyone is interested.

>Say like the FUZION System?

I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that system 
like?

Bob K.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:28:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:28:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> 
>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
> 
>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
> fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|

Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government 
by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first 
place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)

The US certainly did not recognize them.

That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
combatants'...


>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?

Yeppers! That's why they have sacraficial goats, err, PC's to do that 
kind of stuff ;-)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:05:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com> <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3C62B3C4.434DE609@sitraka.com>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
> so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
> really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really interesting.

I think my fave non-documented period has to be -2280 to -2200, the
beginning of the Rule of Man... the only downer is being stuck at
TTL 12 or so for all the equipment. No lasers. :(

Mad props to Don McKinney's Integrated Traveller Timeline for letting 
me get Trav dates while at work!

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:18:10 +0000
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
Message-ID: <F44l69IzjcIVP7moZUT0001279e@hotmail.com>

From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>

     "<sigh>...all this talk of WarpWar and Star Force...I've gone all 
nostalgic for high school...thanks for the link to the WarpWar page...now if 
I can find somebody to play it with at work...the return of Pocket Games 
(whee!)"


Mr. McGeehan,

     WarpWar is/was a great little game, just ditch the original map.
     There are three homes systems for each player, but they don't have warp 
lines between them.  Crossing one hex of empty space takes an entire turn.  
So, once you take one of your opponent's home systems, you and he will spend 
lots of turns doing nothing but moving one hex at a time between warp line 
networks.  Factor in the TL progression (IIRC, one level every 3 turns) and 
any forces you send across the gaps between warp line networks turn into 
pumpkins before you can use them.
     Taking a single home system can be done, but finishing him off can take 
quite a bit of time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:06:27 +0000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F230pqa9TC04yuWNWBg00013bd4@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Empress Margaret I was four when she succeeded Zhakirov.  Clearly 
there was a regency.  Who was the regent?"

     "There is an obvious candidate:  Antiama!"


Mr. Bradley,

     Zhakirov's wife!  Beautiful solution, sir.  She would be the obvious 
choice.  Which of the Louis had his mother as regent for a while, was it the 
Sun King?

     "This isn't canon, of course, but it's a logical progression from it, 
don't you think?"

     Why can't it be canon?  You're right, post-Civil War would be a great 
setting.  It's a shame that T5 seems to be aimed at M:200 and T20 at M:1000.

     "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra & 
Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be 
ignored,..."

     Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of the 
OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:53:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
In-Reply-To: <3C62B3C4.434DE609@sitraka.com>
References: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <003b01c1afd5$3f9af7e0$66b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207124408.00a94990@mail.charter.net>

That Period is also a lot of fun, since the Terran military is spread sooo 
thin, small teams of relatively junior officers and NCOs can get away 
sooooo much.

"Hmm...It Ensign LeBlanc is in charge the High Port here."
"Blinky LeBlanc, wasn't he that completely clueless frosh back in our 
senior year at the Academy?"
"It appears so.  We could paint "Hancock's Smuggling Company" above our 
docking port and he wouldn't notice."
"And to think I was upset when dad banned me from the family business and 
railroaded me into the Navy."

Great place for merchant campaigns.  Think Reconstruction Carpetbagger....

At 12:05 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Alan Bradley wrote:
> >
> > I'm actually beginning to get quite interested in the period around 700 or
> > so.  There's not much canon information on it, and there wasn't a lot of
> > really flashy stuff going on, but the subtle things were really 
> interesting.
>
>I think my fave non-documented period has to be -2280 to -2200, the
>beginning of the Rule of Man... the only downer is being stuck at
>TTL 12 or so for all the equipment. No lasers. :(
>
>Mad props to Don McKinney's Integrated Traveller Timeline for letting
>me get Trav dates while at work!
>
>Ethan

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 17:22:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202070544.g175iap14171@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C62B7D0.2000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> On 02/06/02 at 01:59 PM,  Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com> said:
> 
> 
>>>IIRC, WarpWar was from Metagaming, not SJG.  I had a
>>>copy in high
>>>school.  Wish I still had it....
>>>
> 
>>Oops, my bad. Must be getting senile in my middle-age.
>>Thank you, though - Now it will be easier to find.
>>
> 
> Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
> He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
> company he founded later.

Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and 
that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I 
spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later 
Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:03:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
In-Reply-To: <200202071507.g17F79N26864@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202050755250.24698-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207095914.009eda60@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 AM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the
>atmosphere?

Good point!  That does cut down on the raw number of BEs.

>When I used JTAS#10's table I got 1 off planet army for both Mora
>and Trin (and only by fudging a bit) which is what the counter mix
>gives them in colonial armies.  This makes it hard for Mora to affect
>Trin since the other TL15 worlds have small armies and the other
>high pop worlds have lower TL's.

It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army, 
and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the 
planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's 
planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or 
organized for off-planet movement.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:00:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:00:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013104854.113.ajackson@ping>

Gonzalez writes:
> Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
> systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.
> 
> Say like the FUZION System?

Shrug.  It should work, the only real trick is giving stats to equipment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:12:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100914.009f0b20@mindspring.com>

At 07:03 AM 2/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

I've used Greg Porter's CORPS to great effect.

>Say like the FUZION System?

Speak not that name!  Icky poo!

>If so, any hints or tips?

I'm not sure what you want here...  all I can say is you need to endeavor 
to keep the flavor of Traveller as much as possible.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:05:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
References: <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100434.009f6ab0@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?


I change the stellar type, unless I'm trying to make a deliberately strange 
system.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: First Campaign Advice
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Jeff Rients <jeff@myguard.net>
>
>I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro
adventure "The Imperial
>Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8 Reprint, but I'm planning on using
only the core rules >(Books 1-3).  I intend to use these materials to launch
a new campaign in the next couple of
>weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward Marches, would
anybody have any advice to
> offer?
>
>For context, I have almost 20 years experience GMing D&D, Call of Cthulhu
and several other non-
>sci-fi games, so I'm not looking for generic advice for new GMs.  I'm
hoping for some pointers
>specific to Traveller and/or sci-fi gaming in general.

Excellent, on-topic, request.  Someone assign him a newbie topic and a
number, and we'll get back to him.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEINCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
>
>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
>in the canon?

"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
war subjects.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] lock blade knives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>
>ps on the subject of knives, what happens when the local Law says that you
>cannot carry any 'locking' blade because - when it was written - the only
>locking blades were flick knives and bali-song.  Then your pc's show up
with
>the Impie version of a Leatherman...

"That? No, that's not a lock-blade knife.  It's just a solid piece of bonded
superdense steel and a power pack.  When I turn it on, the molecules realign
themselves to form a point and an edge, and to increase hardness
substantially.  It's perfectly legal here, really."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:34:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:34:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?

To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:26:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207130228.00a69f80@mail.charter.net>

At 10:28 AM 2/7/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>>fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government by 
>two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first place), our 
>staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
>The US certainly did not recognize them.
>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...
>>   ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it?
>Yeppers! That's why they have sacraficial goats, err, PC's to do that kind 
>of stuff ;-)

If captured, the Duke will deny all knowledge of you.
So don't get caught...unless you like Sword World Military Prisons...


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Capital punishment turns the state
into a murderer.  But imprisonment
turns the state into a
gay dungeon-master." - Emo Philips
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:26:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:26:34 -0600
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEINCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C62D4EA.3F836F64@premier.net>



"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> >From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
> >
> >Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" anywhere
> >in the canon?
> 
> "The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
> that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
> full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
> war subjects.

On that subject, does anyone have the Sunbeard Declaration archived and
available for repost?

-- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:19:33 EST
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <5a.6317259.29942d45@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 07:50:01 GMT Standard Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining hit
> location.  Please feel free to comment.
> 
> see: http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/aiming.html
> 
> Tod
> 

Excellent, I've been looking for a set of hit location rules for some time 
and these are close to being ideal.

I think I'd make some changes for personal use though, mainly because I don't 
like "general" as a hit location. Here goes:

1. Use "skull" instead of "general" in the Head hit locations.

2. Add "wrist" to the Arm hit locations to get rid of "reroll"

3. Move "organs" from "upper torso" to "lower torso". Most (if not all - you 
could argue about the liver) of those listed are actually situated in what I 
would call the lower torso. Add "ribs" and expand "lungs" to include a left 
and right; replace the general with "muscle" (which is just as vague but 
sounds better IMHO).

4. Lower Torso - See (3), "organs" would slot in where "general" is now.

5. Legs - drop one "thigh" hit and add "ankle".

6. Organs - replace the "general" with "bladder".

Personally I would include variation in damage based on location, but 
probably tied in with blood loss and a more complex damage system, I'm 
interested in that sort of thing so it's not a criticism of this piece of 
work :). 

On a slight aside I remember reading an article on the distribution across 
"hit locations" of combat injuries in US troops during the Vietnam war. What 
was interesting to note is that the distribution was fairly equal across all 
areas of the body. Unfortunately all I remember about the source is that it 
was a huge text book on ICU medicine chained to the desk of a unit I used to 
work in about six years ago :( 

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:29:44 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
Message-ID: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 19:01:27 GMT Standard Time, 
gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:


> >That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
> >working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
> >available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
> >along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
> >target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?
> 
> To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill 
> you."
> 
> --Glenn
> 

Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US) 
over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?

"I was cleaning it and it went off..."

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:43:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] OT :  Tele Arena
Message-ID: <memo.655032@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <000001c1afb1$176287d0$6401a8c0@goca>
Greetings dear hearts.

If you know the former website at which it appeared, try the Wayback 
machine - http://www.archive.org/ - to see if they have a copy thereof.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 19:51:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:51:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207144831.00a7d340@mail.charter.net>

At 02:29 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 07/02/02 19:01:27 GMT Standard Time,
>gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:
> > >That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves knowing and
> > >working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of the
> > >available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if a game
> > >along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22 caliber
> > >target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same damage?
> > To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> > remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> > pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill
> > you."
> > --Glenn
>
>Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US)
>over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?
>
>"I was cleaning it and it went off..."

A lot of suicides are listed as 'accidents', a) to save the family 
"embarrassment" and 2) Insurance purposes.

Just like were they find the body halfway in an gas oven with pilot light 
turned off, it's called an 'oven cleaning' accident.


-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 20:56:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:56:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>

The news that morning sure told a whopper.  Not surprising, considering:
(1) Very few reporters have a grasp of the basics in military affairs, even
when it's their beat;
(2) The Pentagon is eager to keep the lid on this news as much as possible,
and;
(3) The military in general wants people to believe they have mysterious,
wizard-like abilities.

For starters, the US Marine reinforced battalion that's on the ground is
about five times the number of troops in that morning news report.  The
number of special operations type troops might be in line with the report,
but I am taking a wild guess and estimating it at more like 250 to 350.
That's not counting the CIA types who have acted as cowboy irregulars.

Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Still, the original point is very true that very elite units with
relatively small logistical tails can have combat power usually only found
in units composed of many more personnel.

ObTrav:  How much easier is it for those in power in the Imperium to
control and manipulate the reports the general public sees about military
affairs?  And other matters of Imperium security.  There are much tighter
choke points for controlling the movement of people and information between
planets than we have choke points between countries on contemporary Terra.
And how much easier is it for the line to blur between what is of personal
importance to the people doing the controlling and what is genuinely a
security matter (given that the Imperium is a government of men, not laws)?
 Just because the Baron doesn't want it in the press that his personal
residence includes a huge outdoor zoo and quarters for his 800 personal
household servants doesn't mean it deserves to be censored as a military
secret.

--Laning

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:58:39 -0800 (PST), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
>
>FWIW, I heard on the news this morning that the recent
>actions in Afganistan were "won" by 100-150 US Troops.
> I know they had support from locals and other people,
>but only 100-150 US troops were supposedly involved.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 21:32:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:32:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202060431.g164VKK06052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020207213440.LHKZ319.dorsey@link>

This is exactly the kind of computer-aided gaming that almost no one takes
advantage of and we should all try to get more use out of.  Wouldn't it be
nice if every rule book came with a CD?  Or one-shot password for DLing
software, whatever.

Oh.  I'm no alpha geek, but I used to have a very sweet spreadsheet that
did almost exactly this.  It took a lot more man-hours than you might
expect to get all the details perfect.  I did give a copy to a friend,
after locking most of the cells to prevent him from accidentally destroying
it.  The next step was to create a separate data entry form, but that was
much simpler.  Sadly, that hard drive blew up.  :-<

--Laning
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."  -Steve Wozniak
traveller geek code:  tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+
ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:00:49 -0000, "Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
>
>Some brave soul could
>concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:
>
>Choose a tech level
>[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]
>Choose a displacement
>Specify a jump limit
>Specify a G rating
>Specify a % armour volume
>Specify a % weapon system volume
>...
>Specify a % etc systems
>
>And the spreadsheet calculates the rest? Would that satisfy the 'I want a
>simple design system' brigade, while also making it 100% FFS compatible
>for the gearhead brigade?
>
>Con: We need an alpha geek to volunteer to make this sucker.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 21:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:48:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202052211.g15MBcW03075@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207164812.00af6eb8@mail.charter.net>

Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?

At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:04:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:04:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <20020207.140422.-161705.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Dear Mr. Lickspttle,

In regards to your request and excellent resume, I can unburden you from
your hackneyed dirt-ball existence to a long wondrous career exploring
the galaxy, fending off evil, and basking in glorious ports-o-call with
wine, women, and song.

Just enlist, the General's looking for a few good men.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800 "n2sami" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> Henry J. Lickspittle
> Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire
> 
> Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position considered necessary 
> at soonest expediency. Have well-built aspiration to depart this 
> hackneyed
> dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are of utmost
> plasticity. I await you munificent proffer of employment at the
> foundation of mechanical staircase three.
> 
> 
Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:02:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:02:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5a.6317259.29942d45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8883958.23CF3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 11:19 AM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> Excellent, I've been looking for a set of hit location rules for some time
> and these are close to being ideal.
> 
> I think I'd make some changes for personal use though, mainly because I don't
> like "general" as a hit location. Here goes:
> 
> 1. Use "skull" instead of "general" in the Head hit locations.

Good idea.  I used general meaning any part of the head not listed
specifically.

> 
> 2. Add "wrist" to the Arm hit locations to get rid of "reroll"

Sounds good

> 
> 3. Move "organs" from "upper torso" to "lower torso". Most (if not all - you
> could argue about the liver) of those listed are actually situated in what I
> would call the lower torso. Add "ribs" and expand "lungs" to include a left
> and right; replace the general with "muscle" (which is just as vague but
> sounds better IMHO).

I should have added a definition here.  Upper torso is the are from the tops
of the shoulder to the waist. Notice the difference in hit probabilities.
The upper torso as defined above has more frontal area, and is more likely
to be hit by random fire.
> 
> 4. Lower Torso - See (3), "organs" would slot in where "general" is now.

General again represent a strike to a non specific area.
> 
> 5. Legs - drop one "thigh" hit and add "ankle".

The thigh has quite a bit more frontal area that the lower leg, hence the
rational.

> 
> 6. Organs - replace the "general" with "bladder".

errr.. painful.  Sounds good

> 
> Personally I would include variation in damage based on location, but
> probably tied in with blood loss and a more complex damage system, I'm
> interested in that sort of thing so it's not a criticism of this piece of
> work :). 

I originally used that.  It became quite complex, and with Traveller
players, too lethal.  Combat is already deadly enough IMHO.
> 
> On a slight aside I remember reading an article on the distribution across
> "hit locations" of combat injuries in US troops during the Vietnam war. What
> was interesting to note is that the distribution was fairly equal across all
> areas of the body. Unfortunately all I remember about the source is that it
> was a huge text book on ICU medicine chained to the desk of a unit I used to
> work in about six years ago :(


Yeah.  Computer modeling by the NIJ using computer man showed hit
distribution was related to frontal area, with a slight skew favoring the
chest.  This was probably do to the short ranges simulated with the center
of mass being the aiming point.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:30:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: No, no: _really_ simple design system
In-Reply-To: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207163205.01ea34e0@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I don't have my copy of FF&S yet, but it should be possible to create a 
>system based on the retail pricing model.

More or less, and that's where I was going with the trivial design 
system.  Since there seems to be an audience for it, I'm already working on 
a new revision.  This would have considerably more "smarts" behind it - 
what I posted earlier should be considered a "zeroth draft" or "trial balloon".

I think the next version is going to be laid out along the following lines:

1  Payload and Engineering Space

1.1  Payload

This would use the payload table as presented earlier:
TL    9    9
Jump  J-0  J-1
M-0   90%  xx%
M-1   xx%
etc.

1.2  Modify Payload (optional)

Payload modifiers could be presented for TL, mission, and other factors 
(such as fuel purification or not).

Role      Payload
Civilian  ---
Military  +x%
Spartan   +x%

Armor       Payload
Unarmored   +5%
Light       ---
Moderate    -2%
Heavy       -5%

        Building TL
Base   TL-10  TL-11  TL-12 ...
TL-9   +x%    +x%
TL-11  +x%
etc.

1.3  Compute Engineering and Payload

Multiply hull size by payload percentage.  This is payload in 
dtons.  Subtract payload from hull size; remainder is engineering space in 
dtons.

2  Systems

2.1  Bridge

Install bridge (includes sensors, computers, commo, etc) from chart.

2.2  Weapons (optional)

Select and install weapons from the tables.  Turret and Barbette weapons 
would be organized as battery size (that is, number of turrets in the 
battery) by TL.  Number in the body of the chart is the total volume of the 
battery.

Laser Turrets
Battery Size:  1  2  3  4  5
         TL-9   xx xx xx xx
         TL-10  xx xx xx
         TL-11  xx
         etc.

Bays would be listed by weapon type and TL; the number in the body of the 
chart is the number of dtons required for one weapon system.

             TL-9  TL-10
Meson Bay   xx    xx
PA-Gun Bay  xx
Laser Bay

Spinal mounts are probably best handled by having the designer allocate an 
arbitrary amount of tonnage, with some minimum that is larger than the 
largest bay weapon (1000 dtons?).

2.3  Hangars (optional)

Allocate a fixed amount of tonnage to hangars and grapples.  Maximum amount 
of craft that can be packed in is 1/2 to 1/4th the hangar volume.  Grapples 
use volume 1.5 times that of the carried craft.

2.4  Cargo (optional)

Allocate a fixed amount of tonnage to cargo

2.5  Passengers (optional)

Decide on a number of passengers carried.  Table shows dtons required.

Number Carried   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  20  30  40  50
High             6  10 14 ...
Middle           2  4  6
Low              3  4  5

(note that table includes computation of required number of stewards and 
medics, including the quarters required for these crewmembers)

3  Details (optional)

In this step, compute design details that may or may not be needed.

3.1  Crew

Compute the number of crew carried by the vessel.  Quarters for crew (at 
appropriate comfort level for the ship's role) are already figured into the 
tables - this step is purely for informational purposes.

Ship Size   Minimum Crew
100 or less 1
101-400     2
401-700     3
701-1000    4
1001 and up 6

Additional Crew
1 additional crewmember per xx dtons of engineering space.
x additional crew per xx dtons of weapons
1 steward per 8 high passengers (or fraction thereof)
1 medic per 120 passengers (any type) or per 20 low berth passengers.

3.2  Price

The base cost of the ship is MCr xx per dton of engineering space.
Additional costs are MCr xx per dton of weapons

3.3  Fuel

10% of volume per parsec of jump.
x

5  Evaluation

Rules that determine how to rate the design under the various Traveller 
rules.  Tables would give corresponding game values for terms such as 
"Lightly Armored" or "TL-14, 10-mount, Laser Barbette Battery".

5.1  Book 2
5.2  High Guard
5.3  MegaTraveller
5.4  T:TNE
5.5  T4
5.6  GURPS Traveller


What do you folks think of this outline?


>All costs are the percentage of hull space used.
>
>Fixed Cost:
>    System     TLx     TLx     TLx     TLx
>    Civ        ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
>    BasMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%
>    AdvMil     ##%     ##%     ##%     ##%

Unfortunately, the "Fixed" costs can't be expressed in terms of a 
percentage of the hull used - they really are fixed, in that they're always 
the same number of dtons, regardless of how large (or small) the ship is.

>Variable Cost (Size): This includes such things as crew quarters, life
>support, and possibly weapon "hardpoints"

It's POSSIBLE to fold crew quarters computations into the payload 
percentages, since the main things that drives crew requirements are the 
weapons fit and the size of the drives.  The crew responsible for the 
weapons can be folded into the values on the weapons tables.

This has the drawback that, while you know that enough staterooms have been 
provided for the crew, the design system won't tell you how many 
crewmembers that is.  At least in one of my games, that's a critical piece 
of information to know ... SO, I've added the (optional) step of figuring 
out how many crew there are.

>Variable Cost (Drives):
>This is the same (or similar) to the table posted earlier.  This includes 
>the Jump Drive, Maneuver Drive, and Power Plant (and fuel?)

Yes.  The table I posed earlier includes the hull and all hull systems 
(contragravity, life support, drives, power plant, jump fuel, and power 
plant fuel).

>If no one takes this on, I'll attempt it when I get FF&S.  That is, unless 
>everyone agrees that it would be totally useless.

I'm already working on something close; hopefully I'll get a chance to 
finish it off and post it over the weekend.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:45:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:45:54 +1300
Subject: [TML] TNE Robots and Workstations
In-Reply-To: <20020206080349.A18558@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <000401c1ae32$6a421cc0$0600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <3C63BA72.28141.8BE30B@localhost>

On 6 Feb 2002, at 8:03, Timothy Little wrote:

> The easier way to verify this is to note that humans barely float in
> water.  Although in my case, I sink in swimming pool water if I exhale
> slightly.  I overall float in seawater, but my legs sink.
> 
> I remember having swim classes at school, where the instructor was
> demonstrating how if you just stay calm you'll be able to float
> horizontally without effort.  He was rather perturbed by the fact that
> I didn't.

AFAIK most people are slightly boyant in fresh water if they inhale, and about 
the same density or a more if they exhale. The less fat you have the denser 
you'll be, and that 'float horizontally' bit is going to be crap for anyone who 
doesn't have _lots_ of fat on their legs, simply because legs have lots of bone 
and little fat (and no air) in them.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pat Connaughton)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:49:00 -0800
Subject: [TML]
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207144831.00a7d340@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <006301c1b03a$684c30e0$a64cfea9@swbell.net>

unsubscribe tml    


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:55:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:55:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Simple Design Systems
In-Reply-To: <200202062142.g16LgwC10849@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207173848.01e90f98@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> wrote:
> > I personally prefer a design system that (at very least) gives enough
> > detail that I can draw reasonable deck plans.
>
>I'm a little confused by this. Why couldn't you use WarpWar ship designs to
>draw deck plans? I could. Even the minimum rating of tonnage should give
>enough of an idea to draw deckplans.

The WarpWar system doesn't even give tonnage - it gives "Build Points", 
which are rough measures of resources required (in other words, BP are more 
or less equivalent to cost in MCr).  SO, the design system tells you that 
you'd designed a MCr 40 ship that made J-1, M-1, and had a cargo bay, 
carried passengers, and a grapple for holding a non-starship.

This is approximately the level of detail you get out of WarpWar.  Yes, I 
can draw deck plans that are not inconsistent with this data; so can you 
... but my ship may be a 500 dton subsidized merchant, and yours might be 
for a 200 dton yacht; clearly not the same ship.  IMHO, the results of a 
WarpWar "design" are barely even a mission statement for a proposed 
design.  This is rather like the various "rules of thumb" that exist in 
most industries: given a rough idea of the mission, you can estimate the 
likely cost of something to within an order or magnitude or so.

For drawing deck plans, here's what I want from the craft's designer:
- size (dtons) of power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and fuel.
- size (and number) of bridge and other controls
- size (dtons) of cargo bay
- number, type, and sizes of any carried craft
- number and sizes of passenger and crew quarters
- overall size and general shape of the hull

The first two are so that I can draw the bridge and engineering spaces; 
most attempts to capture or control the ship will center around these areas 
(so IMHO these are the most likely to be used as combat or miniatures 
settings).  The third, fourth, and fifth help in figuring out the overall 
layout of the ship - flow of cargo and passengers between the hold, 
staterooms, and keeping passengers out of both the crew spaces and the 
cargo.  The last is helpful in visualizing the exterior look of the ship 
(and in general, if I'm not provided with an external view of the ship, 
I'll create one as part of the deck plan process).

Admittedly, if I am the designer, the design system does not have to 
produce all of these values.  However, if the design is to be accurately 
communicated, the designer must decide these values and indicate them on 
the design one way or another - so why not have the design system produce them?


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 22:51:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:51:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in the US)
>over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?

I learned from playtesting and playing Aftermath lo these many years ago
that the .22LR bullet is the most common bullet found in the United States.
For this reason, it is the bullet involved in most firearm accidents here.

The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:11:32 +1300
Subject: [TML] Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
In-Reply-To: <F53GHVHYt2gYCL6ntBs000102c2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C63C074.21964.A35A40@localhost>

FWIW, the complete thing can be found at this URL: 
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rboleyn/downloads/index.html


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:13:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020207205836.KZSL319.dorsey@link>
Greetings dear hearts.

Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control 
communications & reporting...

... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and Argentina had a 
vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK forces were 
outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy 
vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them, 
free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy about. Other 
stuff just, um, got lost.

In 1990, when everyone was squaring up again in the Persian Gulf, I rang 
the Ministry of Defence Press Office to ask about what controls they would 
be exerting. They claimed they'd just be 'asking' journalists to sit on 
sensitive items.

Goes back a fair old way. In the Second World War, military censors 
actually physically damaged photographic negatives, causing the loss of 
much information of historical significance. Grrr.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:07:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:07:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:39:38 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Aiming and hit location
>
> I finally posted my quick and dirty rules for aiming and determining
> hit location.  Please feel free to comment.


Might I suggest a slightly different hit location chart. This is the
one I'm using for my own revamp of Striker damage. In most instances
it should save you a roll. 

     1             2            3            4       5       6
1 L Hand       L Shoulder   L Head           As      As      As
2 L Wrist      L Upper Arm  L Neck           Column  Column  Column 
3 L Forearm    L Elbow      L Upper Chest    3       2       1
4 L Lower Leg  L Hip        L Lower Chest    except  except  except
5 L Ankle      L Upper Leg  L Upper Abdomen  R       R       R
6 L Foot       L Knee       L Lower Abdomen

Enjoy

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:19:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:19:28 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1b02e$0012c9a0$8eb18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra &
> Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be
> ignored,..."
>
>      Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of the
> OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)

Well, I must flee off to work before I'm late, so I can't go into details
until tonight.

I did however make one terrible oversight in not checking GT: Rim of Fire
before sending my previous post.  Most of my quibbles have already been
fixed there, and Antiama was part of a "regency council".  So it is actually
canon.

The council thing isn't quite how I had been looking at things, but it is
still possible for Antiama to have been "Empress Regent" in this context.
She was still "Empress" in the sense that the Queen Mother in the UK is
still "Queen".  She could still be the most powerful member of the council,
even though Rim of Fire says that she doesn't control it.  It's not
surprising she doesn't "control" it - it no doubt contains some of the
Solomani yahoos who are chucking fits over a "Vilani Empress"!

IMTU, the real limit on her power was the factionalisation between the
Solomani (Arbellatra) and Vilani (Zhakirov) factions, rather than the rather
theoretical council stuff.  She _was_ Empress, in all but name.

A proper historical analogue might be the ancient Egyptian regent,
Hatshepsut.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:13:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:13:54 +1300
Subject: [TML] not Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <3c.18dfdc75.29936109@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C63C102.26031.A585E5@localhost>

On 6 Feb 2002, at 23:48, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 
> >
> >Done! (Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & 
> >MT? IIRC the standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a 
> >week, and even so takes up a pretty big chunk of space (especially in 
> >MT).)
> 
> [Barry Ween] OH yeah. [/Barry Ween]
> 
>  During the development of TNE (and thus FF&S), it was pointed out that while
> real world fusion had not yet reached break-even, it DID generate LOTS of power
> on teaspoons of fuel. As this huge decrease was more than compensated by the
> addition of reaction mass (ie. fuel) for the HEPlaR drives of TNE, ships still
> need fuel, but for different things.
> 
>  As far as Jump fuel is concerned, MT is the oddity there, with its (J+1)x5%
> instead of (Jx10)% which is used by all the others.

Arrgh. FFS1 uses the MT formula too.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:08:10 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Navy Ship hulls and missions
Message-ID: <bd.1b97da62.299470ea@aol.com>


Hal wrote:

 >Hello Folks,
 > Just out of curiosity - has anyone ever examined what fleet hulls have to
 >exist within a navy structure?  Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm
 >going to list a few types and pray that you guys can find more hulls and
 >missions for me...

 >1) capital ships: dreadnaught for fleet killing missions
 >2) Capital ships: cruisers for showing the flag and being able to survive
in the battle line
 >3) fighter carriers: mobile fighter bases
 >4) escort carriers: smaller mobile fighter bases

Note that the above categories can be subdivided further -- Light Carriers
(CVL), Battlecruisers (BC), Strike Cruisers, Monitors, Escort Cruisers,
Utility Carriers, etc.  Don't forget Battle Tenders/Riders.
 
 >5) troop carriers
 >6) ammunition transports
 >7) refueling ships
 >8) repair ships: mobile repair shipyards for temporary fixes

To repair ships could be added Salvage Ships; perhaps spidery open frame
hulls that grapple crippled hulks and jump out-system with them.

 >9) Hospital ships
 >10) picket ships
 >11) sensor ships
 >12) Interdiction ships (who maintains the red zones?)
 >13) Destroyers: warships designed to deal with commerce raiders and
 >pirates

If Fighters are a menace to capital ships in YTU, a variant of destroyer
could exist as a fighter-killer, (i.e. the old Torpedo-Gunboats and later
Torpedo-boat Destroyers).

 >14) Commerce raiders

"Under Ten Transponders"  :>

 >15) Survey ships
 >16) patrol ships

Patrol ships could be subdivided into Frigates, Corvettes, Sloops, Escort
Destroyers, Cutters(?), maybe others.

 >17) resupply ships (rations, parts, mail, administrative paperwork, etc)

Food and spare parts were carried on "Stores Ships"

 >18) communications dispatch ships

Given the sort of 18/19th century analog in Traveller communications, I
think "despatch vessel" does sound better than "courier."

How about:

Training Ships (might include sensor tracking ships)

Trials Ships (test out experimental weapons/sensors/drives/hull forms)

Yachts (for those noble admirals; how about the Imperial yacht "Sylea")

Electronic Warfare Ships (a bigger EA-6B)

Berthing Hulks (also come in training & prison varieties; built for the
purpose barges fit in here as well)

Missile Recovery Ships (for training exercises, if missiles are large &
expensive in your TU)

Ferries & Cargo Ships

Navigational/Sensor Buoy Tenders

Gunboats/Missile Boats/SDBs

Command Ships & Intelligence gatherers were mentioned in John Groth's
post (good choices).

Zero-G Drydocks?

Tenders/Depot Ships

Merchant Aircraft Carriers & Armed Merchant Cruisers???  If merchant hulls
get big enough in YTU, maybe.

Q-Ships???

Planetary Bombardment Vessels

And some small craft:

Gigs, Tugs, Lighters (fuel, water, nuclear waste, etc.), Shuttles,
Service/Maintenance Craft, Personnel Transports, Search & Rescue,
Lifeboats, Fighters, gotta have fighters.

Ludowick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 23:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:36:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
 >> From: CHam628781@aol.com
 >>
 >> Isn't the weapon responsible for the most accidental gun deaths (in
 >> the US) over the years the humble .22 rim-fire?
 >>
 >
 > I learned from playtesting and playing Aftermath lo these many years ago
 > that the .22LR bullet is the most common bullet found in the United
 > States. For this reason, it is the bullet involved in most firearm
 > accidents here.
 >
 > The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
 > choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the 
wherewithal
 > to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them
 > somewhere -- and they will bring down at least small game, as well
 > as offer some protecting from your most dangerous natural enemy,
 > other people.

The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!

Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
loads...jam city.

Percussion caps for black powder arms are easier to make than 
primers...there used to be, and may still be for all I know, a kit that 
let you make percussion caps from aluminum cans and childrens paper caps.

Dunno what's in those paper caps, but that's a low tech device for sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 00:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 00:56:37  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <DNJIONMFKOOFFBAA@angelfire.com>

I've got the synergy system that Blue Planet V2 uses and it might work but I've never really had time to do anything wth it. And, for that matter, all the systems you mentioned are perfectly good for the job. That said, I'd be interested to see what people come up with.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 01:52:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:52:15 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Sheesh
Message-ID: <30.21e798b2.2994894f@aol.com>

>>Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable planets
>>that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

Do what TNE did: abolish the Class VI and D stars from the *Primary* table. 
Dwarf stars can still be companions, but the Class VI "subdwarf" turned out 
to be MUCH less common in reality than when Book 6 was written.

 Basically, if you find a listing (or are rolling your own) and a Class VI or 
D comes up as the primary star, read that as a Class V (Main Sequence). If 
you've already put a (theoretically) habitable world in system and the star 
is an 'M', automatically make the sub-digit a zero.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 02:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:38:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 3:36 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
> reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!

But .22s are cheap, and reloading doesn't really help all that much.  Brass
cases have a limited lifespan.  They can only be reloaded a few times before
they start to crack.  You are not going to draw your own cases.

In contrast, a lot of .22 lr ammunition can be bought for not much money.  I
have bought it for as little as $100 for 5000 rounds.  That is a lot of
shooting.  I typically have 10-20,000 rounds laying around the garage.

Add a suppressor and your really in good shape.  You can hunt game or
enemies without ever being noticed.

> 
> Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
> the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
> components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
> undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
> loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
> loads...jam city.

Semiautos weren't really practical until the advent of smokeless powder.
Fouling was the main problem.

For a survivalist, you'd be better off with a big bore airgun.  No black
powder, no flints, no big cloud of smoke when you fire.  Not a lot of noise.
Just a lead bullet required.  There will be a lot of old batteries to
scavenge.  Sure, hand pumping these beasties is tedious, but you can get
10-20 shots per charge, and reloading is on par with a bolt action rifle.
There are several makers who offer them in calibers up to .50

See, for example http://ns.connext.net/~daq/index.html

Note the Bandit. The Bandit is a .50 cal. (.495) precharge 3000 p.s.i.
rifle. The ball weighs 180 grains, goes 790 f.p.s. and produces 250 ft.-lbs.
All for under $500.
> 
> Percussion caps for black powder arms are easier to make than
> primers...there used to be, and may still be for all I know, a kit that
> let you make percussion caps from aluminum cans and childrens paper caps.
> 
> Dunno what's in those paper caps, but that's a low tech device for sure.

As long as you have a good supply of caps

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:16:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:16:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>
>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>
Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
soldiers train in seamanship.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:11:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents
Message-ID: <200202080309.g1839sU02778@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
...
>     Zhakirov's wife!  Beautiful solution, sir.  She would be the obvious 
>choice.  Which of the Louis had his mother as regent for a while, was it the 
>Sun King?

  Yes - a regency under a foreign princess & her consort. And there
was endemic civil disorder at the time, too (all IIRC).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202080318.g183IwU04449@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>So don't get caught...unless you like Sword World Military Prisons...

  So what - you have to break the ice on your weekly bath.

OTOH, it's _Darrian_ society that's partly descended from ... Turks :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 19:20:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <200202080318.g183IrU04437@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
...
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>> meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>> fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate government 
>by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in the first 
>place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
                        ^^^^^

  We do need a font to indicate biting sarcasm / cynicism, don't we? :)

>The US certainly did not recognize them.

  De jure, no. In practice, many states did.

>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...

  Which is certainly sheer genius - after all the Taliban can't hurt
you any more, if they ever could.

ObTrav: Is it any wonder that the 3I prefers to stay out of it? :|


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:00:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:00:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>

At 10:16 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>>
>>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>>
>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
>soldiers train in seamanship.

Hello Terry,
  In response to your question, page 6 of MEGATRAVELLER'S FIGHTING SHIPS,
you will find under AssaultRon: Comprised of troop transports and
supporting ships.  Capable of carrying hundreds of battalions of invading
troops.

I guess that makes it canon...

             Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 03:44:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:44:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6349BA.E6434845@together.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
> > He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
> > company he founded later.
> 
> Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and
> that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I
> spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later
> Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...
> 

	How soon they forget...

	Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
(which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
sitting on my gaming shelf). 
	Steve, branching out, designs Melee, a man to man combat game (which I
have a copy of on my gaming shelf). And then an expansion set called
Wizard which adds spell casting to the combat game (which I have a copy
of on my gaming shelf). These two microgames form the basis of The
Fantasy Trip, an early RPG. 

	The truly scary part is how little has changed between Melee/Wizard and
GURPS of today. Strength, Dexterity, and IQ are the stats, weapon use,
damage, armor effects are all the same. Even the spell names haven't
changed. Everyone who complains about what a hideous overweight mass
GURPS has become, well I still remember back when the whole system was
described in 2 21 page 4" x 7" booklets. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:39:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #134
Message-ID: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>

>   I talked to a fellow who spent much of the `90's in certain
>  European archives, looking at the documents for various ancien
>  regime militaries. Apparently they got lots of helpful ideas for
>  things resembling tanks, machine-guns, etc., and the main reason
>  for turning them down usually amounted to "neat idea, and we might
>  even be able to afford to buy several, but how can we keep them 
>  effectively deployed?"
>  
>    Not a popular reality in some SF/fantasy circles, I suppose,
>  but there it is.

Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they go 
as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 

Not all the ideas are that far out, and there are often one or two good ones 
among the chaff, but still  . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:22:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:22:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <B8889299.23DCE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 3:07 PM, David Shayne at daveshayne@ameritech.net wrote:

> 1             2            3            4       5       6
> 1 L Hand       L Shoulder   L Head           As      As      As
> 2 L Wrist      L Upper Arm  L Neck           Column  Column  Column
> 3 L Forearm    L Elbow      L Upper Chest    3       2       1
> 4 L Lower Leg  L Hip        L Lower Chest    except  except  except
> 5 L Ankle      L Upper Leg  L Upper Abdomen  R       R       R
> 6 L Foot       L Knee       L Lower Abdomen


I looked at the probabilities, and noticed some differences.  To whit, your
distribution looks like this:

Head            11.1%    Head  11.1%
R Arm           16.7%
L Arm           16.7%    Arms  33.3%
Upper Torso     16.7%
Lower Torso     11.1%    Torso 27.8%
L Leg           13.9%
R Leg           13.9%    Legs  27.8%

I used my definition of general locations to get a more appropriate
comparison.

Compare to mine:

Head            5.6%    Head    5.6%
Right Arm       11.1%
Left Arm        11.1%   Arms    22.2%
Upper Torso     27.8%
Lower Torso     16.7%   Torso   44.4%
Right Leg       13.9%
Left Leg        13.9%   Legs    25.6%

Note that on your table, the arms have the highest probability of being hit,
torso and legs are about equal.  There is a 1 in 10 chance of a head strike.

I selected the system I did to: 1 make use of standard CT rolling
conventions.  And 2, to approximate hit distributions that related to
frontal area.  But hey, whatever works.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:53:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202070348.g173m6B13280@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207231158.02292140@mail.qrc.com>

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002, <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>What I had in mind was more simple statements along the lines of "Basic 
>bridge includes Radio [...] with ranges not in actual distances or hex 
>amounts but broad MT-style range bands

Actually, T4 uses a vaguely-similar classification of range bands (although 
with different names and breakdowns), so QSDS sensors are already rated 
this way (although numerically, instead of with words - it's more compact, 
and it's a lot easier to remember that 8 is bigger than 7 than it is to 
recall if "planetary" is farther or shorter than "orbital".  :-)

I think I have a good solution for this, though: instead of putting the 
rating into the table at all, I'll have a separate section (almost an 
appendix) to provide rating numbers for each specific rules set.  The 
design sequence will simply list between three and six options (basic, 
standard, advanced, scout, small military, and large military come to 
mind).  This way you can come do the design without worrying about it, and 
come up with gaming stats for any incarnation of the Traveller rules.

>Aside: Does FF&S use way lower PP fule requirements than HG & MT? IIRC the 
>standard PP fuel load in HG & MT is only good for a week

Yes; HG fuel load-outs were good for a month.  In MT, the fuel consumption 
of power plants was increased drastically, which made it very difficult to 
design warships.  T:TNE and T4 reduced the power plant fuel back to 
something approaching sanity.

>I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer to 
>(and be limited by) entries on a table.

I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if they 
did, they may not have one handy when doing ship designs, so the design 
sequences were written to be do-able with nothing but a pencil and paper.

Nowadays (at least for me), it's a very rare circumstance when I don't have 
at least a basic 4-function calculator within reach - and most of the time, 
I have something in my pocket that is considerably more powerful than a CT 
era (late-1970's) minicomputer.  So is it reasonable to write a design 
sequence that simply assumes that a 4-function pocket calculator is 
available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250 times 
2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?

The "conventional wisdom" is that the design sequence should be kept to 
addition and subtraction, plus "simple" multiplication and division 
(multiplication by single-digit or "easy" factors of 2, 5, and 10).  This 
sort of logic is one of the reason behind all of the tables in QSDS - that 
it is a lot easier to look up a value on a table and add it to a running 
total than it is to multiply two three or four digit numbers.

>A propos of which, this system seems more versatile to me than QSDS -- 
>QSDS gives specific detail on a narrow range of ships, whereas this system 
>gives more vague detail on a broader range of ships.

That's partly a function of the vagueness; I make no guarantees about ships 
over 5000 tons or so (or rather, you can construct them, but as you scale, 
you will probably run into issues).  The system as presented is flat-out 
wrong for ships below a certain minimum size (which is dependent on TL).  I 
think I can improve this in the next iteration, but it'll still be a pretty 
bad approximation when you get towards the ends of the spectrum.

>We know the size of the ship and the rough tonnage amount taken up by 
>various component groups, everything else just becomes map-drawer prerogative

It sounds to me like you prefer to do a lot of your "designing" at the 
deckplan stage.  I think I explained in the other message what I like to 
see going into the deckplans.  Also, my deckplan designing was heavily 
influenced by Azhanti High Lightning (where each chair on the bridge is 
associated with a specific position and function), so I like to have 
details down to the level of "that box is the fuel purifier, and that chair 
is the weapons officer's station".

>Sure we won't be able to put an accurate label on every piece of equipment 
>(i.e. this half-square of machinery on the bridge represents fire control 
>for missile battery 3)

There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the PC's 
want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so they can 
steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector of 
fire ...

>And for that 5-10% where I DO want more detail/accuracy in the deckplans, 
>I probably would've built those ships using a more detailed design system 
>anyway.

And here is where we need to do some planning ahead.  As things stand now, 
the only systems where you can do this are TrivShips/QSDS, SSDS, 
FF&S*.  Book 2 and Book 5 are close enough that you can use the ships in 
the same universe without problems ...  The trick will be selecting the 
design systems that you use (or being OK with the fact that knowledge about 
how the PC's ship is constructed does not transfer to the other ships in 
the universe).

* Sort-of.  QSDS and SSDS are based on a "FF&S 1.5" - Dave and I agreed on 
a set of changes from FF&S1, but FF&S2 had not yet been written when QSDS 
and SSDS were created.  In general, we didn't break anything too badly ... 
but there are some changes.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:03:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:03:08 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
Message-ID: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>

> Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>  the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Something I learned while working on the Gulf War Factbook and slightly after 
was that the "military beat" is considered one of the least prestigeous jobs 
and anybody assigned to it tries to get out as soon as possible. Evidently 
showing too much familiarity with military affairs is (or was, anyway) a 
career killer.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:07:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100914.009f0b20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAECBCHAA.redroach@pobox.com>

I use Fuzion to run 2300 AD and such.
More than willing to help convert.
Fuzion works WELL with Traveller, considering the Task system

TV

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:12 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?


At 07:03 AM 2/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
>systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.

I've used Greg Porter's CORPS to great effect.

>Say like the FUZION System?

Speak not that name!  Icky poo!

>If so, any hints or tips?

I'm not sure what you want here...  all I can say is you need to endeavor 
to keep the flavor of Traveller as much as possible.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 04:51:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:51:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
In-Reply-To: <20020207.140422.-161705.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1b05c$3c9322c0$2f7de40c@loki>

General Turokan,

Proviso you comprise a situation for this splintered aged carcass at
that moment all the superior. Can we be departed by subsequent twoday?
Now I wait at top of mobile rising room seven.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:56:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>

LKW speaks of the military beat and its desirability when the Gulf War
Factbook was being developed to which:

Yet still look at how many of today's top dogs pounded that beat. Look
also at the cultures relationship with its military across time. These
perceptions are fickle. If Afghanistan is any example (and note here I
do not watch television so cannot comment on that reportage) the
military beat today is a talk to a local that was there kind of gig.

I entered the service at the base of its post Vietnam decline and left
after the 'evil empire' had collapsed and we were done on the ground in
Iraq. Did I see a range of our cultures relationship with its military
over those years?


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 05:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:50:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C63671D.D8783A39@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:22:50 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location

<snip>

> I looked at the probabilities, and noticed some differences.  

<snip>

> I selected the system I did to: 1 make use of standard CT rolling
> conventions.  And 2, to approximate hit distributions that related to
> frontal area.  But hey, whatever works.

And I selected the system I did to: 1, make use of a standard CT rolling 
convention, and 2, to cut down on the number of rolls and chart look ups
to arrive at the hit location. 

For your purposes it might not be that big a deal. For the system I'm
working on I still have at least 2 more rolls (and chart lookups) to
arrive at the final damage result so everywhere I can streamline is
usefull. YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:10:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:10:50 -0800
Subject: [TML]
In-Reply-To: <006301c1b03a$684c30e0$a64cfea9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <B888ABEA.23E93%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 4:49 PM, Pat Connaughton at patconnaughton@earthlink.net wrote:

> unsubscribe tml  
> 
> 
> 

You have been unsubscribed

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:15:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:15:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <200202071451.g17Ep6516367@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>

On  Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:26:37 +1100, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] {CBC} Canon
<<<SNIPPAGE OF RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>
>I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
>so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
>or not.

Former US Marine here.  The selection process for decades now has had
higher education and intelligence test requirements to enlist in the Marine
Corps than in the Navy, Air Force, or Army.  Not a widely known fact,
although recruiters love to crow about it.  Until about thirty years ago it
was customary for judges to give rowdy young men who were arrested for
brawling the choice of "thirty days or three years," meaning thirty days in
jail or charges would be dropped if they enlisted for three years.  Usually
it was stipulated they enlist in the Marine Corps, not just any service.

You should probably count boot camp as part of the selection process.
During my day, roughly a third of enlistees would wash out of boot camp and
be given a discharge.  During the first few days, they gave us
opportunities to just raise our hands and say we'd changed our minds.  The
paper work would take months longer, and they'd keep you around pushing a
broom or some such until then.  The primary criteria for graduating from
boot camp are psychological commitment and physical endurance.  They make
each day a trying process, and if you don't **want** to get through to
graduation, you won't.

The physical demands of boot camp definitely emphasized endurance more than
strength, dexterity, intelligence, education, or social standing.  Strength
and dex were definitely quite significant, of course.  The vast majority of
us definitely gained strength or washed out.  The long-time weight lifters
who entered boot camp did privately complain that their strength
conditioning was worse after a couple of months, but felt like their
overall conditioning was better.  For instances of dexterity being
important, I can only really think of marksmanship on the rifle range and
nimbility on the obstacle/confidence course or in pugil sticks.  The Marine
Corps puts a lot of emphasis on rifle marksmanship.  Intelligence and
education were arguably significant.  Granted that they graduated a few
from boot camp who seemed dumber than a box of rocks, they also did indeed
flunk out some others for not being able to pass periodic written exams and
hands-on exams.


Over the last ten years, a longer-term trend in all four armed services
towards emphasizing education has accelerated, at least in the Marine
Corps.  The current goal is to have every enlisted Marine hold at least a
two-year degree.  Of course, they still haven't reached 100% of them having
high school diplomas or GEDs, but they're doing better at that than the
other three services.  They also have a number of books for required
reading each year, all titles pertaining to military history/science.  Even
the privates.  They've also made the strength portion of the biannual
fitness tests tougher to pass.

Classic Traveller enlistment rolls for the US Marine Corps (the one I was
in) might include:
-1 DM for Str 5 or less
-1 DM for Dex 4 or less
-1 DM for End 6 or less
-1 DM for Int 5 or less
+1 DM for Int 8+
+1 DM for Edu 7+
If the player fails a success roll for initial training, then they are
discharged after one partial term.  Base roll is 5+.
-1 DM for Str 5 or less
-1 DM for Dex 6 or less
-3 DM for End 7 or less, -1 DM for End 9 or less
-1 DM for Int 5 or less
+2 DM for End 9+
+1 DM for Int 8+

There are too many different DMs to really fit the spirit of CT, but you
get the idea.  Note that there would still be average and below average
physical specimens getting through enlistment and initial training, however
there wouldn't be a lot of them.
Benefits from success at initial training might include:
2+ on 1D for Combat Rifleman-1
1D-3 added to Endurance
2+ on 1D for +1 Str
4+ on 1D for +1 Dex
6+ on 1D for Tactics, Survival, Brawling, Recon

The US and British Marines have had a long history of cooperation and
mutual respect.  Lots of exchange programs.  Work together on conferences
and such.  When the two countries have sent troops to serve alongside each
other, they tend to group the Marines together.  And so on.  From
everything I've read, and from the Marines I've met who've done the
exchange programs, I think it's awfully big of the RM to treat us equals.
They're at least five times more selective in recruiting.  Their training
standards are much tougher, initial training lasts a lot longer, and
there's a lot more encouragement and opportunity to wash out and not
graduate.  Their record on the battlefield supports my high estimation of
them.  I'm **damned** glad for the RM who were with us near Chosin in
Korea, for instance.  Anyway, don't apply my description of the USMC to the
RM, it would not be appropriate.


An OT BTW.  We over here in the States congratulate the Queen on her
jubilee and celebrate with all of you.  (Yes, we do actually pay attention.
 Nobody over here really seems to sympathize with those who are proposing
to do away with the throne as an antiquated and useless expense.  The
attitude seems to be that it's really quite a cheap thing compared to the
overall budget, and it seems to have functioned well so far.  If it ain't
broke, don't fix it.  Besides, it's your country's issue, not ours.)

<<<SNIPPAGE OF REMAINING RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>

--Laning
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier.  This was the case with the Greeks
and the Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson
(Okay, so he ignores Marines, Navy, and Air Force but you get the idea.  :-)
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:29:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207100434.009f6ab0@mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
 <JNOMIIGHOMJAFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020208012906.00e175e8@buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For example:

Meson Guns in GURPS TRAVELLER are of one kind - killer kind!  One attack,
that if it hits, pretty much toasts anything it hits.

In HIGH GUARD, the meson spinal mount came in the following categories:

Per Traveller TL (as opposed to GURPS tech level):

11:
5000 tons
8000 tons

12:
2000 tons
5000 tons
8000 tons

13:
1000 tons
2000 tons
5000 tons
8000 tons

14:
1000 tons
2000 tons
4000 tons
7000 tons
8000 tons

15:
1000 tons
2000 tons
5000 tons
7000 tons

According to Mayday, it states that short range is 5 hexes for use with
High Guard, and ships beyond 15 hexes may not be fired upon.  This means
then, that Max range for Long is 15 hexes.  The rules state that each hex
is approximately 1 light second in distance.  Thus, a 15 hex distance is
really 15 light seconds!

Another approach we can use is to consider that 10 triple beam lasers at TL
13 has the same odds of hitting as a Spinal Mounted Meson gun at TL 11.

Using that guidance, we get the fact that the accuracy value for 30 lasers
firing is equal to an accuracy bonus of +12.  This means that our TL 11
Meson Guns should have an inherent accuracy value of +12 when firing at a
target.  The only way this could happen is if the Meson Gun fires "multiple
pulses" at its target rather than one big pulse.  This "reasoning" matches
the observed effects in the HIGH GUARD game.  How so?  Remember that the
Meson Spinal mount does 1 extra hit per letter value above 8 it does.
Thus, a type A does two critical hits per hit it scores on a target.
  By using multiple pulses for the meson gun, meson screens are now that
much more valuable - just like they are in HIGH GUARD.

Is anyone interested in working out a Meson Gun in GURPS  TRAVELLER terms
that works similar to the Meson Gun from High Guard?

        Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:00:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:00:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Missing Persons Report
Message-ID: <200202080543.g185hZn04247@mail3.iserv.net>

Whatever happened to David Golden?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:30:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:30:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C63671D.D8783A39@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <B888B078.23E9E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 9:50 PM, David Shayne at daveshayne@ameritech.net wrote:

> 
> And I selected the system I did to: 1, make use of a standard CT rolling
> convention, and 2, to cut down on the number of rolls and chart look ups
> to arrive at the hit location.
> 
> For your purposes it might not be that big a deal. For the system I'm
> working on I still have at least 2 more rolls (and chart lookups) to
> arrive at the final damage result so everywhere I can streamline is
> usefull. YMMV
> 
> David Shayne

Cool. I don't streamline it too much, because my aiming rules require a
general and specific location. PCs can aim at a general location, but
specifics are still random.

You are right though.  The longer I play, the more I simplify. All that
rolling is just there to facilitate role playing.  That's the important bit.
Do you have your house rules posted somewhere?

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:46:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:46:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Help Wanted
Message-ID: <20020207.224624.-250473.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Dear Mr. Henry J. Lickspittle,

At your urgent request I've dispatched a shuttle yesternight for yonder 
place of gloom and dispare.  Your skills are desperately needed aboard.
We have a recruiting office onboard to help you fit in. Please call your
friends to the roof of mobile rising room seven. Just look for a cube.
Were on our way. 

General Turokan

We are the Borg.
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.
Freedom is irrelevant;
Self-determination is irrelevant;
You must comply.
Strength is irrelevant.
Death is irrelevant.
Your defensive capabilities are unable to withstand us.
Your life, as it has been, is over.
>From this time forward, you will service us.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:00:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:00:40 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 16:36, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Moreover, you want postapocalypse? A flintlock will do you better in
> the long run, as even centerfire arms need hard-to-manufacture
> components for reloading (primers and smokeless powder) and though
> undoubtedly most bolt-action rifles and revolvers will fire black powder
> loads with no problems, I wouldn't want to operate a semiauto with BP
> loads...jam city.

It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists, thank 
goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to limit magazine 
size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing that's hard to make in 
a small workshop is the primer."


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:13:33 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3C630F98.1000001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 18:38, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 2/7/02 3:36 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> > The only problem with that is that, in general, .22's are not
> > reloadable, whereas centerfire arms are. Better stock up now!
> 
> But .22s are cheap, and reloading doesn't really help all that much.  Brass
> cases have a limited lifespan.  They can only be reloaded a few times before
> they start to crack.  You are not going to draw your own cases.

This depends on how hot you load them. When my father had his .22 Hornet he reloaded ome of the cases over 20 times, and IIRC one only started to crack at 40 uses. His .243 cases have been reloaded over ten times and only a few have had to be thrown away (and they're all one that have been used 
for hot batches).

> Semiautos weren't really practical until the advent of smokeless powder.
> Fouling was the main problem.

I don;t think it's that hard to make low-grade 'smokeless' powder, so as long 
as you're not loading too hot, and aren't gtetting carried way this shouldn't 
be too much of a problem for a community with some surviving chemical skill.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:50:04 +1000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <000c01c1b06c$ee0efa00$b35d8690@computer>

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> >      "One slight problem is that DGP puked all over the Arbellatra &
> > Zhakirov stuff in Rats & Cats, writing a load of nonsense that has to be
> > ignored,..."
> >
> >      Details, man, details!  How did DGP goof up yet another facet of
> > the OTU?  (I still remember their jump fuel ruling, JEEEEEEZZZ!)
>
> Well, I must flee off to work before I'm late, so I can't go into details
> until tonight.

OK, a bit earlier than I expected...

Basically DGP suggested that Arbellatra, rather than Zhakirov, engineered
the eclipse of Solomani power at court.  In other words, Zhakirov was just
following a script Arbellatra wrote, rather than asserting his own power.
Fortunately, this suggestion was made in a way where it can be read as
opinion, rather than fact.

Rim of Fire has already overwritten it enough to allow it to be ignored.
Woo-hoo!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:24:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F220C6POYFSrAuWiqJm00002bd7@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Basically DGP suggested that Arbellatra, rather than Zhakirov, 
engineered the eclipse of Solomani power at court.  In other words, Zhakirov 
was just following a script Arbellatra wrote, rather than asserting his own 
power.  Fortunately, this suggestion was made in a way where it can be read 
as opinion, rather than fact."

     "Rim of Fire has already overwritten it enough to allow it to be 
ignored.  Woo-hoo!"


Mr. Bradley,

     Woo-hoo, indeed!  The sooner the good stuff is cherry picked out of 
DGP's work and the rest flushed the better.
     I consigned them to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump fuel 
ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel for a jump of ANY 
length because the engines were "tuned" to operate at their maximum rating.  
So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's onboard jump 
fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
     Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!
     They later "modified" this from "all fuel" to "most fuel", but the 
result was still the same.  In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of 
published designs.  Here's a knee slapper, they came out with all of this 
AFTER publishing the "Nemesis" article in their own rag!  That's right, they 
actually published a nifty design for a jump5 ship built around a meson 
spinal mount and sporting a black globe that would perform strategic 
"boomerang" attacks by jumping TWICE with fuel already onboard and THEN 
invalidate the whole shebang with a new fuel rule a few issues later.  D'oh!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 07:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:55:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>
Message-ID: <B888C482.23F15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/7/02 11:13 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:


> 
> I don;t think it's that hard to make low-grade 'smokeless' powder, so as long
> as you're not loading too hot, and aren't gtetting carried way this shouldn't
> be too much of a problem for a community with some surviving chemical skill.
> 

The biggest problem with making smokeless powder is controlling grain size
and shape.  This controls burning rate.  Basically, most commercial
smokeless powder is the same chemically.  The difference between powders in
the grains.

Maybe something like cordite would be easier.  Use an old pasta maker to
extrude it.  Besides, there's nothing like the smell of cordite.  These
modern nitro free powders just aren't the same.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 08:31:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 03:31:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208083342.PEEP319.dorsey@link>

Mark, thanks for the courtesy of asking.  Go right ahead, I'm flattered.  :->
--Laning

On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 at 16:48:42 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:

>Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?
>
>At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
>>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 08:50:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:50:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C6308A2.26D38F30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHAEMHDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal and
Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for 1993-1998.  We
decided to make a hit location chart using the information it contained.  In
assault cases of gunshot wounds the following hit locations were given:

Report Results
Head / Neck - 14%
Arm / Hand - 13%
Leg / Foot - 33%
Upper Trunk - 21%
Lower Trunk - 16%
Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)

Hit Location Table (d12)
1:		Head
2: 		Right Arm
3: 		Left Arm
4-6: 		Chest
7: 		Abdomen
8: 		Groin
9-10: 	Left Leg
11-12: 	Right Leg

Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get hit
more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier to keep
the PCs alive by not hitting them there.

And yes, I know it uses an "evil" D12.  However as dice are just tools for
randomizing percentages, I dont care about different dice.  Anyway, you
could just change the percenages to whatever dice mix you like.  We liked
the D12 as you could roll it with your "to-hit" and get the location at the
same time in an easy to remember chart without much chart memorization.

Justin



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 09:00:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:00:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <B888C482.23F15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C644A79.12897.8CBDFD@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2002, at 23:55, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Maybe something like cordite would be easier.  Use an old pasta maker to
> extrude it.  Besides, there's nothing like the smell of cordite.  These
> modern nitro free powders just aren't the same.

Exactly. Besides, guncotton isn't at all hard to make and it's reasonably 
smokeless. The big thing would be to load 'light' to allow for unforseen 
variations in the brew. Actually if you're using cast lead bullets you'll be 
wanting to keep the velocity down to reduce lead buildup anyway. I suspect the 
biggest problem with a semi-auto in this situation would be getting reasonably 
safe and relaible loads that are hot enough to cycle the weapon properly. I 
could see someone using a semi-auto as a single-shot (manually cycling the 
weapon), using post-holocaust ammo, with a magazine of carefully hoarded pre-
holocaust ammo for emergencies that need full power and maximum RoF.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 06:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:10:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHMEOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


True, but you have to avoid the Delbruck vs. the gods syndrome.  ignorant
people covering any major beat is an indictment of the news agency not a
denial of the beat's importance.

jml
a crank, a grogand and a history buff
and darn proud of it


> Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses
>  the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

Something I learned while working on the Gulf War Factbook and slightly
after
was that the "military beat" is considered one of the least prestigeous jobs
and anybody assigned to it tries to get out as soon as possible. Evidently
showing too much familiarity with military affairs is (or was, anyway) a
career killer.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 10:54:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 02:54:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020208105451.68486.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>


--- n2sami <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:

<<If Afghanistan is any example (and note here I do not watch
television so cannot comment on that reportage) the military beat today
is a talk to a local that was there kind of gig.>>

That's partly our* fault.  Journalists, in general, are taught to
localize a story.  For instance, during the anthrax scare most local
news outlets carried stories on their localities' plans to deal with
such an outbreak.  Military public affairs types,* knowing this, make
an effort to put news folks in touch with military folks from the same
region.  This usually means the story is more likely to run, and that
means the military gets favorable press, which is what military public
affairs is all about. 

*Journalist, USN/USNR (1986-present).



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 09:12:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:12:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fading Suns Deckplans
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121093405.00abe390@urbin.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020208101259.5b2229ca.jenry023@student.liu.se>

I've been getting hopelessly lost in the TML-reading department... working
on fixing that right now.

Antony Farrell wrote:
> As far as the Fading Suns "Approved for Use With" deckplans has anyone
done
> a conversion of any of them to Traveller. I have one set and apart from
> names and deckplans there is no indication of what they classes of
vessel
> they would be in a Traveller universe. Any ideas?

I have the set called "Letters of Marque," but I haven't done any work on
them yet. I meant to, but real life got in the way.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'll probably be doing FFS2 designs based on those maps at some
point in time. Someone mentioned estimating tonnage from the deckplans.
How is that done?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:07:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:07:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <20020208083342.PEEP319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208070713.01eebc08@mail.charter.net>

OK, how would you like to be attributed?

At 03:31 AM 2/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Mark, thanks for the courtesy of asking.  Go right ahead, I'm flattered.  :->
>--Laning
>
>On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 at 16:48:42 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>
> >Mind if I add this to my Military Sig Quote list?
> >
> >At 03:56 PM 2/7/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
> >>Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It embarrasses
> >>the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
"I fear all I have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with
a terrible resolve." --Admiral Yamamoto after the bombing of Pearl Harbor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:25:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:25:54 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Some comments:-

Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
damage the bladder <g>.

Keep the locations, descriptions vary with damage sustained:-

<1D : superficial wounds (lacs, abrasions, bruises, sprains),
closed fractures of a bone in the region.

2-4D: Multiple or open fractures in one region, simple perforations of
hollow organs, mild-moderate contusion of solid organs.

4-6D: Major internal injury/injuries, with significant blood loss.
Multiple region fractures, severe burns.

6+D: Lethal internal or external injuries, unless promptly treated.

Alternate wound location table (based on rule of 9's)
Locations :-

 D6                 D6 
 1-2: Head or arm:  1-2 Head or neck 
                    3-4 Right arm 
                    5-6 Left arm 
 3: Chest   
 4: Abdomen   
 5: Right Leg       1   Foot   
 6: Left Leg          "


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb  5 11:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:26:23 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1ae37$f341e1e0$675d8690@computer>

> From: "Jeff Yin"
> Fast reaction plans called for the mobilization of Deneb fleet, to counter
> Zhodani advances in the Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach.

Trojan Reach?  From the Avalar Consulate, I presume. OK.

> Though Imperial fleets had been pushed out of the Jewell and Regina
> subsectors,

Presumably the Hi-pop worlds were still being beseiged. OK.

> Consulate advances were half hearted seeming to have been stopped by late
> 1118.  The addition of Deneb fleet signaled a renewed counter offensive
> with the aim of liberating Efate.

OK.

> In reality, Zhodani forces swept through Trojan Reach sector, into
> Rhylanor and Trin's Veil, as well as the rimward subsectors of Deneb.

I see - the Imperial counter offensive failed, and the Zhodani were able to
continue theirs.  Fine, but it needs to be a bit more explicit.  You
probably should have a closer look at the time factor here.

Getting to Trin's Veil either means bypassing Glisten, or going through it.
This probably deserves a mention.

-------------------------

Your stuff is good.  Even the quibbles I had above have turned out to be
less serious once I looked at them more closely.

A problem the GDW/DGP Rebellion had was that they stacked the disasters a
little too high.  I can see this being a bit of a potential problem for your
timeline.  But, that's just a feeling, and I'm keen to see how the rest of
your posts turn out.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 12:53:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 04:53:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] alternate #1, part 4
References: <3C64316D.10356.2AE128@localhost> <3C644A79.12897.8CBDFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <OE65TbdkSmLAztxc1o800007fa0@hotmail.com>

Only one part left, I swear!  I think we all know the gratitude routine, so
on with the material:


1121 and 1122 bore witness to intense fighting on the Ilelish front, first
with the invasion of Dlan itself, then later with the pursuit into Verge.
The full-scale assault on a high pop/high tech world is not done lightly,
and the Dlan operation had projected casualties in the order of the Terran
campaign a century earlier.  However, despite a bloody and contested
landing, Imperial forces managed a stunning victory largely due to the
reluctance on the part of Dlan's citizenry for armed resistance.  The
Virasin faith, in its requirement that believers die a non-violent death,
hampered the kind of partisan operations witnessed on Earth.  By mid 1122,
the planet was firmly in loyalist hands.  Strephon's fleet then advanced
spinward towards Verge, meeting the Archduke's fleet in the largest naval
engagement of the Ilelish campaign.  Those remaining under the Archduke's
flag were the most stalwart of his supporters, but also those commanders who
had participated in the Zarushagar campaigns.  The Emperor had promised
harsh penalties for the perpetrators of the resource strikes in the early
years of the rebellion.  In either case, neither class of people was like to
surrender, with the result that the remaining battles were often fought to
the last Ilelish vessel.  Casualties on both sides were heavy, but
especially so among the rebel forces.  Finally, on 277-1122, Dulinor was
killed while commanding the rear elements of his retreating fleet.  The
remaining ships surrendered over the rest of the year.  On 328-1122, Dulinor
's daughter Isis returned to Dlan, formally surrendering the Ilelish forces.
She had in her possession a letter from her father to Strephon, written on
131-1116.  Never intended for delivery, it was a stirring and quite eloquent
apology, obviously meant much more as an attempt to reconcile the upcoming
murder of his friend and supporter with a larger moral objective.  Some
claimed the letter was a cleverly crafted piece of propaganda, meant to
soften an Emperor already well known to anguish over those who had died,
even among the rebels, during the course of this rebellion.  Whatever the
truth of the matter, Strephon confirmed Isis to the title of Duchess of
Ilelish, and pardoned her for any actions during the rebellion.  (It was
known she had served in only a public relations capacity in any case.  Isis
and Iphigenia had even maintained a warm and public friendship prior to
132-1116)



 Through 1121 and 1122 the Vilani front remained relatively static.  Despite
occasional small engagements, usually in the course of reconnaissance,
neither side was willing to give battle.  As the news continued to pour in,
Ishuggi realized the inevitable result.  By 180-1122, he had acquiesced to
Imperial demands, preparing his fleets for full mobilization.  Though it was
known he balked at the demand to place his ships under Brzk, the Vilani
Archduke knew he tread on thin ice, and agreed with as much grace as he
could muster.  Gushemege and Dagudashaag likewise leapt back into line, not
only sending their fleets to the Solomani front, but also offered to pay for
a significant portion of the Ilelish campaign, and organized sector wide
celebrations in honor of Strephon and the Imperium.



1122 was the grimmest year for the Spinward Marches.  Zhodani fleets had
overrun much of Glisten, Mora, and Trin's Veil subsectors, even as far as
Rhylanor.  The combined Imperial fleet, which by 97-1122 included not only
most of Spinward Marches and Deneb fleet, but also the remaining Corridor
forces were stalled in Regina subsector.  Effective coordination by the
local Consulate colonial fleet commander and several key Vargr raiders
stumped Imperial advances.  Though possessing far greater naval assets,
Imperial forces constantly guarded against a pincer attack from Rhylanor,
and could only reclaim Efate and Allel by the end of the year, managing no
significant inroads into Jewell.  Following up on its earlier successes, the
208th fleet remained in the Sword Worlds.  Easily defeating the returning
Sword Worlds fleets, the rest of the year was spending in various
suppression roles, while waiting for new orders.  Many spinward admirals
wanted to take the combined fleet against the Zhodani forces in Rhylanor,
but Norris overruled them, saying simply that he had put his bet on
Strephon, and wasn't about to change now.  What exactly he meant by this
remained unclear until the following year, as Brzk led a massive relief
force through Corridor.



In 1122, stalwart efforts by Adair and his Vegan allies forbade the Solomani
further advances for yet another year.  However, his fleets began to suffer
from lack of replacements and even proper maintenance.  Confederation raids
in the coreward parts of the sector made re-supply difficult.  Increasing
the Vegan Autonomous Region became an embattled enclave of Imperial
strength, and though impressively provisioned for such an occasion, was
beginning to show signs of economic strain after five years of war.  In the
Old Expanses, it was no longer possible to draw an accurate picture of
political control.  Several smaller polities, propped up by Imperial or
Solomani deserters, sprung into a brief existence, only to suffer an
ignominious end, often to a larger band of rogues.  Meanwhile, small units a
single squadron in size or less continued to prowl the sector, loyal to one
side or the other, targeting support structures belonging to their enemies.
As trade ground to a halt, corsairs and other villains went in search of
fresh prey.  By early 1123, coreward Alpha Crucis became their new hunting
ground.  In Daibei, Duke Craig's forces continued a determined resistance,
but were nevertheless forced out of the rimward 4 subsectors.  Solomani
advances had been slow but constant, and the Imperial situation might have
collapsed with one stunning success.  Unfortunately for the Confederation,
Duke Craig was able to find unexpected help from the Aslan.  Significant
land grants (including territory not within the pre-war Imperial borders),
post war economic considerations, and personal contacts managed to gain the
Duke the allegiance of several new Ihatei fleets.  Though no match for front
line Confederation forces, the Aslan proved a significant disruption on
Solomani supply lines.



Jeff Yin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:06:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:06:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003001c1b0a1$638a0f20$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> Hello Folks,
>   I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
> converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For
example:
>
I think the Naval Architecture articles Christopher Thrash wrote for JTAS
include GT stats for the letter-coded meson guns that appear in High Guard.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:39:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:39:35 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
Message-ID: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>

From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>

     "That's partly our* fault.  Journalists, in general, are taught to
localize a story."


Mr. Harris,

     First, journalism is easily taught and can be taught far more rapidly 
than the current "4 years and grad school" model followed by most.  It 
doesn't take that long to learn how to write a pyramid lead or to learn how 
to use Strunk & White's "Elements of Style".
     Actually, the best journalists are those who haven't been officially 
trained how to do it.  Mencken is most likely during a couple thousand RPM 
in his grave after looking at the shambling mob of boobs practicing his 
profession these days.
     Second, the horde of journalists staggering about are in actuality 
reporters.  Pepys was a journalist, he kept a journal.  Reporters calling 
themselves journalists is like garbage collectors calling themselves 
sanitation engineers.
     Reporters should bring no preconcieved notions to a story and a basic 
knowledge of the nuts and bolts.  Most military reporters do neither.  They 
automatically assume, because their instructors taught them to, that there 
is something neferious going on.  They also betray an almost unbelievable 
ignorance of the most basic facts and make no effort to learn them.
     How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your 
care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did during 
the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a "battleship", as 
I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about any other topic, 
they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs don't somehow count.  
Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the obligatory February piece on Dr. 
King without knowing what Selma was all about?

     "*Journalist, USN/USNR (1986-present)."

     A Journalist's Mate?  They used to try and show some sort of Pentagon 
produced, half-hour long, weekly news program on our site TV system until 
the crew squawked about it.  Sitcoms and movies, thank you very much.  After 
a few months at sea, all the rest is chaff.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:04:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:04:35 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <3C63DAF3.FBEB2024@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:50:43 -0800
> From: "Justin Bunnell" <jbunnell@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
> 
> A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal 
> and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> 1993-1998.  

<snip>

> (ouch! a shot to my not specified)

Those can be among the most painfull of wounds.

<snip>

> And yes, I know it uses an "evil" D12.  

No, no, a thousand times no. D12 aren't evil. They're just 
misunderstood. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 13:52:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:52:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <3C63D80C.5A5840A2@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:30:16 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location

<snip>

> Cool. I don't streamline it too much, because my aiming rules require
> a general and specific location. PCs can aim at a general location,
> but specifics are still random.
>
> You are right though.  The longer I play, the more I simplify. All
> that rolling is just there to facilitate role playing.  That's the
> important bit.
> Do you have your house rules posted somewhere?

Not yet. This is still very much a work in progress. 

I need to flesh out the specifics of the wound mechanisms. What I have
so far requires at least one table look up and two more rolls against
endurance to determine wound effects. This is far too unwieldy and I
need to brainstorm a simpler way of determining things like
consciousness or the lack thereof and what if any penalties to actions
different severity's of wounds cause. And then I want to get the first
aid and healing rules into a similar state before I'm ready to start
play testing. 

After that I'll get in touch with my ISP about how I would go about
using the net space that comes with my DSL account.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:03:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:03:21 +1000
Subject: [TML] Milieu 700: Regency of Antiama
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <005501c1b0a9$75172fe0$b95d8690@computer>

So, I've been thinking about this Antiama stuff.  Here is how I think a game
would work:

The setting is basically about the Solomani/non-Solomani power struggle.  It
doesn't quite erupt into outright civil war, but nobody knew that at the
time.  It is quite conceivable that relatively small scale military action
could have happened.

The key word is relatively, of course.  Since the factionalism extends right
to the foot of the Imperial throne, it is quite possible that the normal
limits on intra-Imperial warfare might not apply.  If a Solomani noble is
kicking around her anti-Solomani rivals, Solomani sympathisers higher up in
the hierarchy might be able to prevent an Imperial intervention, or possibly
even ensure that the intervention is on _her_ side...  Of course,
anti-Solomani nobles would be trying to do the same for the other side.  : )

This means that being in an area where the rivalry is getting hot is very
dangerous.  Sensible PCs will tend to run away from such areas.  This means
being a little sneaky.  The frog boiling technique is applicable.
Essentially, the factional conflict escalates very, very slowly.

At first it is just a slanging match.  That little war on that little world
over there is unrelated to anything else.  The drop in the Naasirka share
price has nothing to do with anything.  The marriage of Cousin It is just
some piece of background fluff, isn't It?  The appointment of Admiral
Bilandii is just stuff that happens...  The disappearance of some ship is an
accident. Maybe there is a minor outbreak of piracy...  The PCs do a couple
of missions for some noble family, and maybe a corporation or two.  They
make some handy contacts.  They don't have to realise that they've become
"assets" for Zirunkariish.

None of this stuff, if done carefully, will scare them away.  When things do
hit, hopefully, they will be sucked in too deep to run...

Where to run such a game?  The obvious location is somewhere near the
coreward border of the Solomani Sphere.  The exact side of the border would
depend on which faction are the good guys!  Diaspora would be a good choice,
although it has already been used for Hard Times and TNE.  (Ditto Old
Expanses.)

Of course, there is the obvious problem for any backdated campaign:  exactly
how much should you regress the worlds?

PS:  I am going to have to look at the question of Arbellatra and the
Solomani Movement in more detail.  When I was thinking about the Civil War a
couple of years ago, I tended to ignore it, and instead concentrated on her
interactions with her Vargr subordinate Soegz and the Archduke of Vland.  In
retrospect, my approach did allow for the emergence of Solomani dominance at
court - Soegz was a bit of a political liability, especially once his
Huscarles got involved in purging pro-Gustus human nobles, while the
Archduke of Vland was coerced into "ordering" Arbellatra to "restore order"
in the Imperium, and putting the Vland fleet under her control.  These
allies, then, while essential to her seizure of the throne, probably
wouldn't have been the ones she relied on to actually run the Imperium.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com
















From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:11:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020208141129.4730.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<A Journalist's Mate?>>

Nope.  Journalist.  -mate assumes there is an actual person of that
title to whom you are an assistant (Boatswain's mates are assistants to
the Boatswain, Electrician's mates are assistants to the Electrician,
etc.).  There are no officer Journalists in the U.S. Navy for us to
assist.  There are public affairs officers (1650/1655) and JOs do work
with them in the public-relations department, but Navy Journalists have
duties and responsibilities other than straight public relations work. 
For instance, ship or base newspapers, SITE television, and AFRTS radio
and TV stations are the responsibility of Navy Journalists -- and often
have a POIC rather than an OIC.

<<They used to try and show some sort of Pentagon produced, half-hour
long, weekly news program on our site TV system until the crew squawked
about it.>>

That would be "Navy & Marine Corps News This Week" (formerly "Navy News
This Week" or, as we used to call it, "Navy News That's Weak").  It is
a bit too much like those weekend "News" shows that were popular during
the early 80s, but have since gone the way of the dinosaur.

<<Sitcoms and movies, thank you very much.  After a few months at sea,
all the rest is chaff.>>

Most sailors I've known were news and sports junkies.  We had an
evening news cast on IKE with all the latest stateside news and sports
scores.  It proved to very popular.



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:36:23 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fading Suns Deckplans
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121093405.00abe390@urbin.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFDOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <20020208101259.5b2229ca.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3C63E267.ED411153@premier.net>



Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> I've been getting hopelessly lost in the TML-reading department... working
> on fixing that right now.
> 
> Antony Farrell wrote:
> > As far as the Fading Suns "Approved for Use With" deckplans has anyone
> done
> > a conversion of any of them to Traveller. I have one set and apart from
> > names and deckplans there is no indication of what they classes of
> vessel
> > they would be in a Traveller universe. Any ideas?
> 
> I have the set called "Letters of Marque," but I haven't done any work on
> them yet. I meant to, but real life got in the way.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Anyway, I'll probably be doing FFS2 designs based on those maps at some
> point in time. Someone mentioned estimating tonnage from the deckplans.
> How is that done?

What I plan to do is count the deck squares to get an idea of the
internal volume, then guesstimate the jump fuel tonnage and go from
there.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:27:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:27:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: alternate #1, part2 (long)
References: <200202050723.g157N4E24080@rhylanor.cordite.com> <005201c1ae37$f341e1e0$675d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>

Alan,

Points well taken.  I definetly could have benefited from additional
articulation in the Marches.  Maybe I can even get a few volunteers to whip
up some inserts/modifications.  If I was going to rewrite the passage you
reviewed in detail, it would have included a few more clarifications.

    1)  The arrival of Deneb fleet, combined with the lack of commitment in
the Zhodani offensive allows Norris to rebuke further Consulate advances.
Over the course of 1118, the Imperial situation in Regina had stabalized,
with a view towards the liberation of Efate.

    2)  The main reason for the Consulate's lackluster thrust into Regina,
and their unwillingness to proceed beyond lengthy and relatively bloodless
sieges lies in the fact that many front line fleets have been drawn for the
operation meant to sweep through the Trojan Reaches.  Your assertion that
the Zhodani passed through Glisten is entirely correct, aided by additional
Consulate forces from Querion through the Sword Worlds.

    3)  To be sure, Norris' fleet in Regina is large enough to batter the
Zhodani out of Jewel, but above all he does not want to be cut off from
behind.  Likewise, if he departs from Regina it is probable that he could
defeat the forces at Rhylanor, but if he did not do so quickly any
resemblance to a front would disintergrate.

As for dates, I would be the first to admit that all listed (except for the
week of 132-1116) times are rough conjecture, and certianly liable to a
potentially unsetteling margin of error.  If I have made a mistake in
timing, especially one with significant rammifications, please let me know.

As for the disasterama, I tend to agree with your assesment here too.  Of
course, much was said of the Imperium's industrial and military strength.
In order for the events in canon Rebellion to make sense, something has to
offset those advantages.  Because I think the Rebellion was too drastic (or
rather, perhaps not selective enough) in its disasters, I am definetly
trying to avoid a similiar trend.  However, the Rebellion string of events
is admittedly the base line for many of this thread's assumptions.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 14:40:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:40:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <B8892377.23F5C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 4:25 AM, Robert O'Connor at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:

> Some comments:-
> 
> Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
> One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
> damage the bladder <g>.

Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb  7 10:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:43:23 -0000
Subject: [TML] sheesh!
References: <3.0.1.32.20020206222445.00e24b10@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <000901c1b0b8$ea952b00$8500a8c0@imogen>

Hal wrote:
> Just out of curiosity - how do GM's resolve the issue of habitable
> planets that are found orbiting white dwarf stars?

Choose players who  are  sufficiently  un-astrohead-like  not  to
notice.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
> choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
> to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
> they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
> from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.

As a gun shop owner once said to me:

  Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
  man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
  to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

Although that only applies to sane folks, as a deterrent.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:29:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500
References: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020208092930.D22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> "I was cleaning it and it went off..."

I personally believe that anyone who is found not to have unloaded a
firearm before cleaning it should have all his weaponry confiscated
for some suitable time.  It's just Not That Hard to do.  There's just
no reason in the world not to check, double-check and triple-check.  I
was taught in Scouts to treat _every_ gun as loaded, even if I'd just
unloaded it myself.

OTOH, I understand that `cleaning his pistol' is a coroner's nicety
for `suicide.'

But then there's the moron who was flying through DFW over
THanksgiving.  To demonstrate that his elk rifle was unloaded, he
pulled the trigger.  Thereby putting a round through a window.

He should be put in the stocks for small children to throw tomatoes
at.  And have his rifle confiscated for at least a year.  Idiot.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:23:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:23:20 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020208092320.C22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."

The amusing thing is that ISTR a statistic to the effect that the
deadliest caliber, in terms of deaths per year, is the .22.  Not
because it is deadly in and of itself--it's almost laughably
_not_--but because a) it's so common b) it's particularly common among
young shooters and c) folks are not nearly so careful with it as they
are with other calibers.  I'm not certain if I believe it[1], but it's
interesting as either a fact or a falsehood constructed for some
reason.

[1] Memories of varmint hunting where it took three rounds to
kill--all within the heart-lungs area, with hollow point .22s.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing
is worth war is much worse.  The person who has nothing for which he is
willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal
safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless
made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
                                          --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:04:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:04:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #134
In-Reply-To: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:39:37PM -0500
References: <110.cf89b8e.2994b089@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020208100451.G22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:39:37PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they go 
> as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 

Yup.  I've a cousin who is obsessed with Zeppelins.  He has all sorts
of reasons that they would actually work.  I was much the same way
about swords and horses once upon a time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:08:27 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>; from n2sami@attbi.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:56:08PM -0800
References: <8b.136f0e44.2994b60c@aol.com> <001e01c1b065$4e4d2a70$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020208100827.H22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:56:08PM -0800, n2sami wrote:
> 
> I entered the service at the base of its post Vietnam decline and left
> after the 'evil empire' had collapsed and we were done on the ground in
> Iraq. Did I see a range of our cultures relationship with its military
> over those years?

My old man got his commission right before Vietnam ended.  Thumbing
through his early cruise books is an enlightening experience.  Very
different from the Navy I remember as a boy, or have seen as an adult.
More than half of those sailors were well and truly frightening.
Which is, of course, a reflection of the esteem in which they were
held by their peers.

Incidentally, if anyone knows a source for Hanoi Jane urinal liners,
I'd be _most_ obliged...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A few years ago, Friday, October 14 was World Standards Day.  Or, at 
least, it was World Standards Day in *some* countries.  However, in 
America, the celebrations were held on October 11th.  In Finland, 
World Standards Day was marked on October 13th.  Italy planned a 
separate conference on standards for October 18th.  --Shakib Otaqui

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:40:49 -0700
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>; from mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:13:00PM +0000
References: <memo.660863@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020208094049.F22201@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 11:13:00PM +0000, Megan Robertson wrote:
> 
> Goes back a fair old way. In the Second World War, military censors 
> actually physically damaged photographic negatives, causing the loss of 
> much information of historical significance. Grrr.

Well, for things to be historically significant, there must be a
future t appreciate them...

A lot of these things seem ridiculous to reporters, but war _is_ war,
and secrecy is pretty often useful, I would think.  Otherwise
intelligence services wouldn't be nearly as large as they are.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:48:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCENFDKAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202061214240.17020-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208084527.009ed610@mindspring.com>

At 10:16 PM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships used
>soldiers train in seamanship.
Since they appear in both Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium and 
Fifth Frontier War, I'd say that the presence of large troop transports as 
part of the Navy *at some level* is canonical.

Note my words.  IMTU, AssaultRons are part of the subsector navy, used only 
when needed.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:17:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> As a gun shop owner once said to me:
> 
>   Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
>   man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
>   to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

Now, I'll probably be the last guy on the TML to actually every carry a
firearm and/or use one on anything bigger than a woodchuck, but the
logic of carrying a small-calibre pistol in defence seems pretty clear.

After a couple shots you'll have probably stopped your target from
doing whatever he was doing before you shot him. He is, however, 
unlikely to die on the spot which is probably a good thing in terms 
of how likely you'll be convicted or how long you'll be in jail for.

PC 1: He's still alive.
PC 2: Oh, thank god!
Pc 1: Uh, you shot him 6 times. Why are you so damn happy?
PC 2: Did you read the legal brief on this world before we hit dirt?   
      Murder is a capital offence here. He dies, I die. That's why I'm
      carrying this piece of crap low calibre weapon... it couldn't
      kill a groat.
PC 1: He is bleeding a lot though...
PC 2: Crap! Let's get him bandaged up and in the back of the air/raft.
      The nearest hospital is only a few clicks away I think...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>

Howdy

Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -

(1) Military Units

How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
tanks would you get in armoured units ?

The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as
the command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

Regards

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3C6349BA.E6434845@together.net>
Message-ID: <3C640AFC.9010605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thom Jones-Low wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:22:24 -0700
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>
>>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah, but wasn't SJ a designer for Metagaming before he started SJG?
>>>He might have been involved in the WarpWar project, just not the
>>>company he founded later.
>>>
>>Yes, he was. I'd have to dig out my rules but I think he did Ogre and
>>that fantasy combat game, the name of which I forget now, even though I
>>spent many lunch hours in college playing it...there was a later
>>Wizardry game, that eventually lead to GURPS...
>>
>>
> 
> 	How soon they forget...
> 
> 	Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
> (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
> expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
> Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
> sitting on my gaming shelf). 

Hmmm. methinks I'd like to pay visit to this gaming shelf....I have Ogre 
somewhere at home, and I have the book to Melee, again, buried somwhere 
at home but I haven't seen it in ages.

Didn't Car Wars originate in thsi format, too?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:13:04 -0700
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 01:15:52AM -0500
References: <200202071451.g17Ep6516367@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020208101304.I22201@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 01:15:52AM -0500, Laning wrote:
>
> Until about thirty years ago it was customary for judges to give
> rowdy young men who were arrested for brawling the choice of "thirty
> days or three years," meaning thirty days in jail or charges would
> be dropped if they enlisted for three years.  Usually it was
> stipulated they enlist in the Marine Corps, not just any service.

This hasn't quite died yet.  I work for a fellow who's about 33-35,
and he got the choice when he was convicted of stealing radios.  He
chose the Marines, which has worked out well for him.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Complete sentences are so Q4'99.  --www.enormicon.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:15:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
Message-ID: <F180gQceqWv5GIagOVN00002ce0@hotmail.com>

>From: eholmes <eholmes@lanl.gov>

>I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
>available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Try this URL:

http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/allegiance_codes.1.txt

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:04:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (eholmes)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:04:23 -0700
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208100238.0238e730@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>

Fellow Travellers:


I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Thanks

Eric

Eric T. Holmes
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty....
Red Square (Moscow) and the Big Blue Bear (E. Berlin).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 17:35:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:35:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013189719.5758.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:
 
> It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists,
> thank  goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to
> limit magazine  size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing
> that's hard to make in  a small workshop is the primer."

Because most gun control is less interested in preventing anyone from having
weapons than in preventing certain classes of idiots and criminals from having
weapons?  Your average urban criminal wouldn't have a clue how to make
ammunition in a small workshop.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:15:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <B8887A0D.23D97%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C6415D7.1050900@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> For a survivalist, you'd be better off with a big bore airgun.  No black
> powder, no flints, no big cloud of smoke when you fire.  Not a lot of noise.
> Just a lead bullet required.  There will be a lot of old batteries to
> scavenge.  Sure, hand pumping these beasties is tedious, but you can get
> 10-20 shots per charge, and reloading is on par with a bolt action rifle.
> There are several makers who offer them in calibers up to .50
> 
> See, for example http://ns.connext.net/~daq/index.html
> 
> Note the Bandit. The Bandit is a .50 cal. (.495) precharge 3000 p.s.i.
> rifle. The ball weighs 180 grains, goes 790 f.p.s. and produces 250 ft.-lbs.
> All for under $500.

Hoo-wee! That shore aint my childhood Daisy pumper!

I didn't know that such beasts were even made...I knew that air guns of 
sizeable caliber had been made in the 18th centuries, but thought the 
modern little BB guns and .177's were pretty much it.

Now I want one ;-)
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:26:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:26:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>

At 05:38 PM 2/8/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Howdy
>
>Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>
>(1) Military Units
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>tanks would you get in armoured units ?

Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine gun.

Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant

Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant

Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain

Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel

Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel

Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or Brigadier General

Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General

Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General

Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.

Note that the US Army doesn't use the Regiment as a separate unit.

Armored units are organized with each tank being a squad.  Thus you have a 
platoon of four or five tanks.

Cadre is a specific term normally referring to instructors.

>(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/fm101-5-1/f545con.htm

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/sym.htm

http://www.foxx-industries.com/2300ad/iss-unit.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/TomMouat/Maphome.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:01:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
References: <F249tXsL1c00goZolmR000098ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C641269.1060404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:


>     Reporters should bring no preconcieved notions to a story and a 
> basic knowledge of the nuts and bolts.  Most military reporters do 
> neither.  They automatically assume, because their instructors taught 
> them to, that there is something neferious going on.  They also betray 
> an almost unbelievable ignorance of the most basic facts and make no 
> effort to learn them.

Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because, 
in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their 
instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic 
radicals.

The press learned, much to their chagrin, just *how* managed they had 
been during the Gulf War, and to a lesser extent, now during the current 
action. In the Gulf War the supposedly independent press was reduced, 
essentially, to being a mouthpiece for the government.

While this was applauded by the military, it is NOT how the press in an 
open democracy was supposed to act.

Consider: They have now shown a correlation between Gulf War service and 
  a near doubling of the risk of contracting ALS. Why, we don't know, yet.

see: http://hsrd.durham.med.va.gov/ERIC/ALS/ALS.htm to get it from the 
source.

Was it because of chemical weapons exposure? Experimental Vaccines? 
Local diseases? A combination of all of the above?

Well, the Pentagon tells us no, and no independent voices were allowed 
to determine if those claims was true or not.

But the Pentagon has been telling us for years that there was nothing to 
the claims of Gulf War vets complaining of a variety of diseases, just 
like they told us for years that there was no link between Agent Orange 
and diseases.

It is telling that reporters have to technically violate US law to tell 
us what our government is doing in Guantanamo, in our name, in the face 
of serious world concern, because they have to report from the Cuban 
side of the the fence.

If there is mistrust of the government or military sources, believe me, 
it has been earned; it is not just some knee-jerk reaction of the 
obligatorily left-wing press.
	
>     How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your 
> care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did 
> during the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a 
> "battleship", as I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about 
> any other topic, they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs 
> don't somehow count.  Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the 
> obligatory February piece on Dr. King without knowing what Selma was all 
> about?

No, but you might try asking them what Dr. King was doing in Memphis 
when he was shot...

Actually I cringe when the reporters start talking about science or 
medicine much of the time. Similar errors of detailed fact abound.

To the general public what does it matter that it is correctly 
identified as an APC, rather than the more generic 'tank', when it's an 
armored tracked vehicle with a turret on top?

  While that would be a vastly important bit of trivia to know if you 
were under attack by an armored column, if you are reporting on the 
deployment of Marines at Khandahar Airport it is irrelevbant if you use 
the inaccurate, but generic term 'tank' to refer to an APC.

Joe and Jane Sixpack will probably go "AyePeeCeeWaht? That there's a 
tank, ya idjit!"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:12:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <3C641269.1060404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013191960.113.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because, 
> in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their 
> instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic 
> radicals.

And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies does not incline
one to believe everything the military says....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:42:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:42:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208133912.00abb9b8@mail.charter.net>

At 09:36 AM 2/8/2002 -0700, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:51:36PM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > The preponderance of the .22LR makes weapons that use that round a good
> > choice for post-apocalyptic situations.  If you don't have the wherewithal
> > to manufacture your own bullets, you can usually find them somewhere -- and
> > they will bring down at least small game, as well as offer some protecting
> > from your most dangerous natural enemy, other people.
>As a gun shop owner once said to me:
>   Folks always laugh at the .22 I carry.  And sure, it won't drop a
>   man like a .40 or .45 will.  But I haven't met one yet who'll agree
>   to be shot with it, `wimpy' round or not.

I remember reading about an assassination technique that has been 
attributed to a. The Mafia, b. The  KGB, or c. The CIA.

.22 short semiautomatic pistol loaded with hollow points and a sound 
suppressor.  Pistol held under a coat or a newspaper.
Start at the groin and shoot up to the neck or head.  One round might not 
be deadly but, add up all five or six.
The pistol is fairly quiet, and can be covered up by normal street noise.

>Although that only applies to sane folks, as a deterrent.

-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:44:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208184644.SISR319.dorsey@link>

No attribution necessary.  It's only a sig, and the Internet equivalent of
a cheap witticism cooked up at a cocktail party.  :->

If you really prefer to have an attribution, then either:
Laning;
Laning Polatty, or;
Laning of the TML
seem like suitable possibilities.  But leave my email address out of it,
please.  :->

On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 07:07:33 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>
>OK, how would you like to be attributed?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:03:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>; from ethan.henry@sitraka.com on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> After a couple shots you'll have probably stopped your target from
> doing whatever he was doing before you shot him.  He is, however,
> unlikely to die on the spot which is probably a good thing in terms
> of how likely you'll be convicted or how long you'll be in jail for.

Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's better to kill
than to maim.  If someone's dead, he cannot sue.  Yes, there've been
instances where burglars have sued those who shot them in
self-defense.  I'm not certain if any have won, but there it is.

Yes, crazy, I know.

There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.  To stop
someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is not a matter of
_hurting_ him by throwing small things at him; it's a matter of
_stopping_ him by shutting down his central nervous system or
destroying a major organ like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally,
means that he dies.

In addition, there's the issue that after the first shot one's
accuracy tends to degrade, due to recoil, increased excitement &c.
Not that the first one in a real situation is likely to be _that_
good.  Anyway, one really does hope to be able to hit with the first
shot.

Having examined the wounds a .22 can cause in animals, I'm not
convinced that it would even slow someone with enough adrenaline
pumping through him.  I was actually surprised by how minor and clean
they were--and this was with hollow points, at a fairly close range
(less than a dozen feet, with a rifle).

OTOH, I have seen a rabbit taken out by a BB (.17?) from an air pistol
with hardly any pumping at all.  Perhaps it hit a nerve.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:02:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
Message-ID: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>

> > Military crackpots are by no means limited to the 18th century . . . they 
> go 
>  > as far back as the Roman Republic, and are still with us    :   ) 
>  
>  Yup.  I've a cousin who is obsessed with Zeppelins.  He has all sorts
>  of reasons that they would actually work.  I was much the same way
>  about swords and horses once upon a time.

And the people who were calling for the replacement of the musket with the 
longbow as late as the 1780s.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:33:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:

> Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine
> gun. 
> 
> Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
So could be 8-12 men
> 
> Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
Could be 24-48 men
> 
> Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
Could be 72-192 men
> 
> Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel
Could be 288-960 men
> 
> Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel
Could be 864-3840 men
> 
> Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or Brigadier General
Could be 1728-11,520 men
> 
> Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General
Could be 5184-46,080 men
> 
> Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General
Could be 15,552-230,400 men
> 
> Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.
Could be 31,104-921,600 men

What's the actual range in sizes of various units?  I assume it would be rare
to have a brigade with more men than an army, but the formulations you give
allow it...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 18:54:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:54:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <B8895EDC.1EA4%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/8/02 9:38 AM, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> wrote:

> (1) Military Units
> How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
> Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
> organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
> size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
> tanks would you get in armoured units ?

Most militaries differ, and many units within the same military differ
according to purpose, but here's a good round idea:

4 men per Fireteam, led by Cpl.
2-3 FT per Squad, led by Sgt.
3 Sqd. per Platoon, led by Lieautenant.
3-4 Plt. per Company, led by Captain.
3-5 Co. per Regiment, led by Colonel.

After that it gets really fuzzy, based on task, etc.

There are many TMs on military symbols, many of which can be picked up
cheaply, or there are also books (Amazon, etc.)

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:01:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 15:06:58 GMT Standard Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > Some comments:-
> > 
> > Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
> > One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
> > damage the bladder <g>.
> 
> Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.
> 
> Tod
> 

Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:07:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013189719.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <3C642E68.8256.1F1645@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>

At 09:35 AM 2/8/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>  > It's as my father said (not in the hearing of any gun-control lobbyists,
> > thank  goodness) - "If they want to control guns why are they trying to
> > limit magazine  size and the sale of complete cartridges? The only thing
> > that's hard to make in  a small workshop is the primer."
>Because most gun control is less interested in preventing anyone from having
>weapons than in preventing certain classes of idiots and criminals from having
>weapons?  Your average urban criminal wouldn't have a clue how to make
>ammunition in a small workshop.

No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.

Ob-Trav: This is what streetwise skill is for.  Letting the PCs get 
firearms when:
1. They are locally illegal
2.  Legal, but tracable
3. Just to keep old skills in practice. :-)



-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:00:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:00:51 EST
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
Message-ID: <135.911f7b6.29957a63@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/02/02 23:23:04 GMT Standard Time, 
mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:


> Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control 
> communications & reporting...
> 
> ... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and Argentina had a 
> vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK forces were 
> outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy 
> vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them, 
> free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy about. Other 
> stuff just, um, got lost.
> 

<possible urban legend>
Apart from the time that the reporters told the British public that the 
Argentinians were fusing their bombs too long. Coincidentally the 
Argentianians appeared a short time later with shorter fuses on their bombs.
</possible urban legend>

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:47:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:47:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1013197646.0.74086800@www.springmail.com>

"Derek Wildstar" wrote: 
>Actually, T4 uses a vaguely-similar classification of range bands (although 
>with different names and breakdowns), so QSDS sensors are already rated 
>this way (although numerically, instead of with words - it's more compact, 
>and it's a lot easier to remember that 8 is bigger than 7 than it is to 
>recall if "planetary" is farther or shorter than "orbital".  :-)

This seems to be a matter of taste -- seeing a number to me denotes a fixed value whereas words connote a fuzzier 'approximate' value: 'Planetary' and '7' may mean exactly the same thing, but the latter makes me feel like I need to be counting hexes or measuring things while the former just leads me to assume 'about that far.'  There doesn't seem to be any rational basis for this; just latent numerophobia I guess.  At any rate, keeping the design steps general and then providing a multi-system evaluation process at the end sounds like a very good solution -- maximum versatility, and certainly easier than converting from T4 values by hand.  

>>I'd rather use a calculator to figure a percentage than have to refer to 
>>(and be limited by) entries on a table.
>
>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if they 
>did, they may not have one handy when doing ship designs, so the design 
>sequences were written to be do-able with nothing but a pencil and paper.
>
>Nowadays (at least for me), it's a very rare circumstance when I don't have 
>at least a basic 4-function calculator within reach - and most of the time, 
>I have something in my pocket that is considerably more powerful than a CT 
>era (late-1970's) minicomputer.  So is it reasonable to write a design 
>sequence that simply assumes that a 4-function pocket calculator is 
>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250 times 
>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?
>
>The "conventional wisdom" is that the design sequence should be kept to 
>addition and subtraction, plus "simple" multiplication and division 
>(multiplication by single-digit or "easy" factors of 2, 5, and 10).  This 
>sort of logic is one of the reason behind all of the tables in QSDS - that 
>it is a lot easier to look up a value on a table and add it to a running 
>total than it is to multiply two three or four digit numbers.

I think that all math in the design sequence should be simple enough to either do in my head or with very few calculator keystrokes.  More than 3 significant digits and/or decimals beyond a tenth (or very rarely a hundredth) are too much.  I'd rather figure 22% of 1250 than subtract 36.4 from 1196.77 -- fewer keystrokes on the calculator, and easier to estimate (at least for me).

And perhaps it's lazy or inexact, but I prefer whole number values (or better yet multiples of 2, 5, and 10) to work with, at least at the level of basic table-entries. When I see, for instance, a table entry of 94.1, I always want to know why we can't just round that to 95. It's worth a 0.9 (>1%) fudge for me to have the math be simpler.  If I then have to use that number in a multiplication or subtraction step that gives me something uglier for an intermediate step that's okay, but I like the numbers to at least start out nice and round.


>That's partly a function of the vagueness; I make no guarantees about ships 
>over 5000 tons or so (or rather, you can construct them, but as you scale, 
>you will probably run into issues).  The system as presented is flat-out 
>wrong for ships below a certain minimum size (which is dependent on TL).  I 
>think I can improve this in the next iteration, but it'll still be a pretty 
>bad approximation when you get towards the ends of the spectrum.

I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within 20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using pre-published designs -- and if the system is also simple enough, I can just design my own craft with equivalent specs and not have to worry about exact values of published designs either.  While I agree that inter-system consistency is an admirable goal (and, in-fact, the whole point of this exercise -- if I didn't care about consistency I could just keep using HG -- or make up numbers from whole-cloth) and would like to see as much of it as practical, my overriding desire is and always will be for a system that's quick, easy to use, and self-consistent. 

>It sounds to me like you prefer to do a lot of your "designing" at the 
>deckplan stage.  I think I explained in the other message what I like to 
>see going into the deckplans.  Also, my deckplan designing was heavily 
>influenced by Azhanti High Lightning (where each chair on the bridge is 
>associated with a specific position and function), so I like to have 
>details down to the level of "that box is the fuel purifier, and that chair 
>is the weapons officer's station".

I can understand this desire, and that I'd say that's a good reason why you'd probably want to design your ships under a more detailed system that gives that level of info, but it seems unrealistic to assume all the rest of us want that level of detail too. When preparing designs and deckplans for official publication it's surely a good idea to base them on the most-detailed system (since you'll be much more bothered by 'errors' than I am by 'extraneous' detail), but if, for purposes of my own campaign, I'm satisfied with a fuzzier, more inexact approach, that shouldn't be disallowed or looked down upon.

I hope these comments are helping, if nothing more than at least to show the perspective I'm evaluating this from. I'm eagerly awaiting to your next posted revision.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 20:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:02:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013198535.1051.ajackson@ping>

Ethan Henry writes:
> My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
> some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> reality.

Well, there's reasonable evidence that people fall down after being shot
because the brain goes 'oh, I've been shot!  Time to fall down'.  A lot of
things can interfere with this process, at which point you're left with the
option of doing enough damage that they can't avoid falling down, which means
killing or crippling injuries.

That said, most drug-related crime is gang-related activity or theft, and
people ignoring bullets is rarely going to be an issue.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:48:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com> <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's better to kill
> than to maim.  If someone's dead, he cannot sue.  Yes, there've been
> instances where burglars have sued those who shot them in
> self-defense.  I'm not certain if any have won, but there it is.
> 
> Yes, crazy, I know.

Right. Civil suits. Forgot about that. 

> There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.  To stop
> someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is not a matter of
> _hurting_ him by throwing small things at him; it's a matter of
> _stopping_ him by shutting down his central nervous system or
> destroying a major organ like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally,
> means that he dies.

My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
reality.

The Toronto Star did a article or 2 on beat cops in Parkdale,
one of the less plesant parts of the city due to the mental
health hospital and addiction treatment center located there.
A lot of mentally ill people and drug users live in the neighbourhood
to be close to their treatment and because there's a lot of rooming
houses available (which is chicken and which is egg I don't know).

Anyway, the long and shrt of it is that officers who did the Parkdale
beat worried about their guns being grabed. 

Exclusively by people who wanted to shoot themselves.

So, anyway, I guess I just have a bit of a sore point about this
vision of hyped-up PCP-enhanced ubermenchen. Though I'm sure someone
will correct me and tell me how many times a day it really happens.

ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...

GM: He grabs your gun.
PC: What!? I jump him!
GM: He raises the gun...
PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
GM: And blows his brains out.
PC & PC 2: ohshit.
GM: You hear sirens in the distance...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 20:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:46:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020114081045.B714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330101b8684bf365dd@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:26 PM +1100 2/7/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Ironically, if you have only a Merchant skill in a trading game, the
>>  character type the suffers the most is the Trader.  That is because,
>>  since it is only one skill and it is so important, all the other
>>  character types add it to their concepts.
>
>That makes me more convinced than ever that we have irreconcilable
>differences in play styles.  I come up with the concept *before*
>looking at the rules.  If the concept wasn't for a Trader, then I
>won't add the skill just because it looks cheap.

A good roleplayer will do what he should regardless of the rules, but 
it is still good for the rules to no penaltize him or encourage 
certain behaviors.

>Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
>better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.

But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being 
_the_ one.

>  > I'm not sure what you mean here.  The prevalent real-life jobs are
>>  mostly things that don't appear in a game
>
>They appear in *my* games.  For my GURPS Space game, I have a job
>table extrapolated from real census data.  This is quite useful for
>generating NPCs.  Since I have already done the work, I can tell you
>that in 2001 Australia, 83% of jobs are in GURPS terms primarily
>covered by IQ-based skills.  This is not likely to decrease in the
>future; quite the opposite in my opinion.

Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track of 
the point values of my NPCs.

And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead 
them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.

>  >> So why are such bonuses only presented in sourcebooks as
>>>  exceptional conditions, or even absent entirely?  Penalties on the
>>>  other hand are ubiquitous.
>>
>>  I'm not sure that is true at all.  For example aiming bonsus are a
>>  standard bonus.
>
>I was referring to sourcebooks, not the basic rules.  Even then, the
>aiming 'bonus' is nearly always teamed up with a very substantial
>penalty due to range.

I just picked aiming because it came to mind.  The point is that both 
exist (and, in fact, if you are very close you can get a bonus due to 
range).  However, PC seek to push the envelope and will, naturally, 
do the harder things.

>   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case,
>since if you don't aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!

Only at low skill.

>   There are
>also about 20 other penalties, at least a few of which apply in any
>given situation.

I'm not sure at all that anyone has a complete list of penalties and bonsuses.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:11:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <F232U51NssZWne0P5xE00016c7f@hotmail.com>

Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>
> >
> >Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium" 
> >anywhere in the canon?
>
>"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an
>early JTAS that may help you think about this problem.

My work isn't canon, but I've worked out some ideas for how
a space pirate ship might function...two essays, at the top
of my Traveller web page.

http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <003001c1b0a1$638a0f20$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:06 AM 02/08/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > Hello Folks,
> >   I was wondering how many people would be interested in discussing
> > converting HIGH GUARD weapon systems over to GURPS TRAVELLER?  For
>example:
> >
>I think the Naval Architecture articles Christopher Thrash wrote for JTAS
>include GT stats for the letter-coded meson guns that appear in High Guard.

Unfortunately - these weapons, if I recall correctly - are WAY too powerful 
to emulate their effects in HIGH GUARD's rules.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:37:48 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>; from ethan.henry@sitraka.com on Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net> <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com> <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net> <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <20020208143748.A29979@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of 
> some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> reality.

The latter is what I meant--not someone just being generally nasty
because he's on drugs.  The problem is when the drug interferes with
the normal functioning of things and numbs him.  Alcohol does it; I
don't doubt that other drugs do as well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:33:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013203989.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
> For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
> There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.

Sure.  OTOH, from FBI statistics the use of guns in crime seems to map fairly
closely to the number of pawn shops with gun dealing licenses in the area,
which suggests that the average criminal isn't too sophisticated...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:37:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:37:25 -0900
Subject: [TML] Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale
 (long)  )
References: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C64450F.3A76602B@gci.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote

>I consigned them to the "whatever" pile after their MT 
> jump fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all 
> it's jump fuel for a jump of ANY length because the 
> engines were "tuned" to operate at their maximum rating. 

This wasn't merely a DGP thing. Early versions of CT
clearly established this as canon as well. Take a good 
look a _first_edition_ copy of Book 2:

"A jump drive requires fuel to make one jump (_regardless_
_of_jump_number_) based on the formula: 0.1MJn where M
equals the mass displacement of the starship and Jn equals
the jump number of the drive.... Jump fuel requirements
are based on the jump number rather than the size of 
the jump actually taken." - CT Book 2 (1st ed) Page 6 (1977)

This was not altered until  later. [Note that the recent big 
floppy books reprint the second edition.]

> So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's onboard jump 
> fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
>      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!

Yes, per the earliest GDW canon. The rules weren't changed
until later. Second Ed (1981) gives the new rule which, IIRC,
first appeared in High Guard Book 5 first edition page 23-4
(1979) and was repeated in Book 5 2nd ed (1980) p 22-3.

> In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of 
> published designs.  

No. GDW did that. :)

[I find it odd that a MT person such as myself has to
cite CT canon. Where's Mr. Hudson when you need him?]

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:25:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:25:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F79uHdLZ03xv3Ho8Xu1000173eb@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I consigned [DGP] to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump
>fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel
>for a jump of ANY length because the engines were "tuned" to
>operate at their maximum rating.
>So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's
>onboard jump fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
>      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!

Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors
allow a ship to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps
less than her maximum jump rating - meaning, of course, that the
default in CT once was that all fuel gets burned.  I don't have
a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, but I wouldn't be
surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as well.

DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:55:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:55:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013203989.7419.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208140447.00a74b20@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208165210.00a74890@mail.charter.net>

At 01:33 PM 2/8/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > No, but those who can figure it out sell to those who don't.
> > For many small crooks, a pistol of any kind is a job requirement.
> > There are RL example of this and large scale smuggling.
>Sure.  OTOH, from FBI statistics the use of guns in crime seems to map fairly
>closely to the number of pawn shops with gun dealing licenses in the area,
>which suggests that the average criminal isn't too sophisticated...

Hmmm....I was thinking of the ATF's CUE reports that showed 60% of illegal 
handguns in D.C. (which has *no* legal firearm distribution at all) came 
from inside the D.C. limits.  It was a 40%/20% split on 'obtained from the 
Police' and manufactured locally.  I don't remember off the top of my head 
which was which.



-----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
To believe in gun control, one has to believe
that guns are not an effective means of
self-defense, which is why police carry them.
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:30:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:30:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013203829.3010.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:

> Unfortunately - these weapons, if I recall correctly - are WAY too powerful
>  to emulate their effects in HIGH GUARD's rules.

Nah, you've got it backwards.  Larger meson guns in High Guard are basically
guaranteed kills on anything they hit, and the weapons in GT are nowhere near
that lethal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:58:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:58:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202082242470.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"jeffb@ebtech.net" wirtes:
>Hans don't you have to cut the numbers down due to taint in the
>atmosphere?

Quite right. A mistake on my part. I've always thought of Mora's taint as
an industrial one (when I wrote up Mora for Year 100, I gave it an
untainted atmosphere), so I've thought of the taint as something akin to
what we have on Earth today. May affect some of the biggest cities on a
bad day, but generally not to be taken into consideration. But the article
in JTAS#10 does not make such distinctions. To it a taint is a taint is a
taint. So Mora and Trin only have 5,000 battalions each, which makes
for 400 battalions each available for off-duty activity. This seems to
jibe well with the two 500-15 armies that show up in the reinforcements
in FFW.

Funnily enough it is GF that may give Mora those 50,000 battalions after
all (well, thereabouts; GF also introduces other adjustments for things
like high hydrographics percentage and local attitudes). GF allows for
ignoring an atmospheric taint.

>Douglas Berry writes:

>It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
>and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
>planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
>planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
>organized for off-planet movement.

So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:59:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Missing Persons Report
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208165558.01de2e18@mail.qrc.com>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, "jim" <bempath@iserv.net> asked:
>Whatever happened to David Golden?

I'm not sure; I haven't heard from him in a while.  The last time we 
corresponded (a year or so ago), he was still in the Air Force, and was 
being moved to a new assignment.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 21:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:58:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208143748.A29979@4dv.net>
References: <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
 <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <20020208093634.E22201@4dv.net>
 <3C64080F.72A3B4FF@sitraka.com>
 <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
 <3C642B73.A52CE728@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208165540.00a7b1e8@mail.charter.net>

At 02:37 PM 2/8/2002 -0700, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 02:48:03PM -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
> > My impression is that "drug-related crime" refers to people
> > stealing stuff to get their next hit and that the image of
> > some neo-Superman hopped up on PCP is a bit more legend than
> > reality.

A good deal of "drug-related crime" is also Billy busting a cap in Al's 
head to keep Al from selling crack on *his* corner.
In the crack trade this is the preferred method of reducing market pressure.
This is also responsible for a good chunk of the firearm related violent 
crime in the US.

You can have a lot of fun getting PCs in the middle of such gang wars.

>The latter is what I meant--not someone just being generally nasty
>because he's on drugs.  The problem is when the drug interferes with
>the normal functioning of things and numbs him.  Alcohol does it; I
>don't doubt that other drugs do as well.

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:31:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:31:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Essay on Imperial Net
References: <3C644F8F.F5A1176E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6451B6.56C365E5@mindspring.com>



alan spik wrote:
<Snip> of excellent material written by James Ramsey in a post to the TML edited
for my ease of reading and also for spelling
I thought I was sending that to myself for my personal use. Sorry.

Obtrav: How many Vargar does it take to change a light bulb?
Grrrrrgh! Aieeeeee! Owoooooooooo! ( Sound of rending flesh)
Zzuoughzz grzh Vargzz (trans. I hate Vargar jokes)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:58:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Gearhead question
References: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1b0f4$2b6172c0$c580f1cf@computer>

I'm attempting to develop my own vehicle/starship design system.  But, I'm
no gearhead or physicist, just a game player.  I need some links to increase
my knowledge of current and future power and propulsion systems.  Or if
someone is feeling very industrious, a list of possible
powerplants/propulsion systems with their output (mw) per volume and fuel
consumption would be nice :)  I'll give you credit on my project if it's
ever completed :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:03:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020208230552.TXYK319.dorsey@link>

Hear, hear!  I couldn't agree more with Mr. Johnson!

And I'm not some knee-jerk liberal, either.  I think firearms are really
fun and nifty, for instance.  I proudly did six years of military service
and have more ancestors than I can enumerate who had distinguished military
careers.

We shouldn't mistrust the military because we think the brass is lying to
us.  (Although that disturbingly often turns out to be true.)  More often
it's just a matter of good intentions gone wrong, or of conflict of
interest.  Other things too.

I wish I had the exact quote from President Eisenhower, I believe it was
his final State of the Union address(?).  He warned us that the biggest
threat to our country was the "military-industrial complex".  That's not
just President but also General Eisenhower talking, thank you.  And head of
the Republican Party.  Certainly not a knee-jerk liberal.  And I think he'd
back up Mr. Johnson here.

Gotta go finish writing up my barbarian doctor now, or Tod will kill me.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 11:01:13 -0700, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> typed:
>>>
If there is mistrust of the government or military sources, believe me, 
it has been earned; it is not just some knee-jerk reaction of the 
obligatorily left-wing press.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:53:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:53:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208175151.01e0e808@mail.qrc.com>


>On

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
>important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies [...]

I thought that everyone knew that the truth is our most precious resource.

(and that therefore, it should be used sparingly, if at all).  ;-)


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:16:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Re, your comments below.

  Typically, in peacetime, most 'real' military units
will be manned at approx. 70-80% of their max TO[Table
of Organization].

  Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
apply:

  Fire Team:   4 men
  Squad:      12 men
  Platoon:    40 men
  Company:   180 men
  Battalion: 900 men (Support companies tend to be 
                      larger)
  Regiment: 2000 men
  Brigade:  6000 men
  Division: 10-20K men 

  Brigade's are the last level where organization is
fairly standardized; above that, the major differences
are in /what/ the macro-org is supposed to do.

  Note that between the Battalion and Brigade levels,
the personnel figures are fairly well fixed, no matter
what the units' actual mission. This is due to the
existence of necessary support units that are manpower
heavy.

  Note, also, that the above is for a 'peacetime
establishment'; after a few months of serious warfare,
the above units will probably retain their names only.
In real manpower, they will usually be about one step
down...with a concommitant loss of combat power.

   MACessna
  >>
--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> > Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support
> weapon like a light machine
> > gun. 
> > 
> > Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
> So could be 8-12 men
> > 
> > Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
> Could be 24-48 men
> > 
> > Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
> Could be 72-192 men
> > 
> > Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant
> Colonel
> Could be 288-960 men
> > 
> > Regiment: 3-4 Battalions, lead by a Colonel
> Could be 864-3840 men
> > 
> > Brigade: 2-3 Regiments, lead by a Colonel or
> Brigadier General
> Could be 1728-11,520 men
> > 
> > Division: 3-4 Brigades, lead by a Major General
> Could be 5184-46,080 men
> > 
> > Corps: 3-5 Divisions, lead by a Lieutenant General
> Could be 15,552-230,400 men
> > 
> > Army: 2-4 Corps, lead by a General.
> Could be 31,104-921,600 men
> 
> What's the actual range in sizes of various units? 
> I assume it would be rare
> to have a brigade with more men than an army, but
> the formulations you give
> allow it...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:14:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Gearhead question
Message-ID: <F114emYewQ1N8Pik3Y800003a1a@hotmail.com>

>From: "The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com>
>I'm attempting to develop my own vehicle/starship design system.  But, I'm
>no gearhead or physicist, just a game player.  I need some links to 
>increase
>my knowledge of current and future power and propulsion systems.


Try this URLs for the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project website:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/

Scroll down to near the bottom of the page, and you'll find some useful 
links (there's some stuff on the site itself too, but most of it is rather 
general and vague).

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:04:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202081211.g18CBWG24443@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

"Justin Bunnell" <jbunnell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal
> and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> 1993-1998.  We decided to make a hit location chart using the
> information it contained.  In assault cases of gunshot wounds the
> following hit locations were given:
> 
> Report Results
> Head / Neck - 14%
> Arm / Hand - 13%
> Leg / Foot - 33%
> Upper Trunk - 21%
> Lower Trunk - 16%
> Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)
> 
> Hit Location Table (d12)
> 1:		Head
> 2: 		Right Arm
> 3: 		Left Arm
> 4-6: 		Chest
> 7: 		Abdomen
> 8: 		Groin
> 9-10: 	Left Leg
> 11-12: 	Right Leg
> 
> Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
> figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get
> hit more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier
> to keep the PCs alive by not hitting them there.

Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:

1: Head
2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
5 Left leg
6 Right leg

Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard 
urban firefights should be something on the order of:

If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a 
1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this 
roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.

I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed 
is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll 
1D12, you only hit on a 1.     

However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting, 
sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time 
to aim carefully.
 
-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:50:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <000901c1b0b8$ea952b00$8500a8c0@imogen> from "Peter L.S. Trevor" at Feb 07, 2002 10:43:23 AM
Message-ID: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>

Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
preprogrammed machinery."

It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
sort having this innate ability?

I don't want to influence the jury, so I won't say anything
more, but for those of you who would try to run Traveller as
a hard science campaign, how would you handle this race?
Keep them as is? Degrade their abilities? Toss them out?

Speak o' wise ones... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:55:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:55:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B889A555.240E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 11:01 AM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 08/02/02 15:06:58 GMT Standard Time,
> webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> 
>>> Some comments:-
>>> 
>>> Organ hit results should be possible on any torso hit.
>>> One wonders how a strike in the upper torso can directly
>>> damage the bladder <g>.
>> 
>> Yes, I know.  Just need an organ.
>> 
>> Tod
>> 
> 
> Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Charles

Thanks.  I already changed it to spleen.  You know, that organ that always
seems to get damaged in ca accidents.  Also a favorite of movie organs to
get hit.

"How's he doing, doc?"
"He was hit in the spleen.  We had to remove it. It's ok, he can live
without it."

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:51:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]> <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> >Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
> >better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.
> 
> But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being 
> _the_ one.

I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but increasing the number of
skills *penalises* the dedicated trading character compared to the
dilettante.

Consider a Trader character spending 36 points on primary career
skills.  With 3 skills, they can put 12 points into each one for IQ+5
each.  Another character might put 12 points total into trading skills
for IQ+1 level each, 4 levels worse than the trader.  (e.g. skill 17
vs 13).

Now consider a sourcebook that introduces 3 new skills for a total of
6.  The Trader gets IQ+2 in each, the other gets IQ level.  The gap
has narrowed to only 2 skill levels.  (e.g. skill 14 vs 12).  So the
character that used to be much better than the dilettante is now only
marginally better.  Furthermore, it is now possible for the secondary
to be *better* than the primary trader in at least one area of trading
and probably two.

This, plus the fact that the primary trader has lost 3 levels of
competence, is why I really dislike sourcebooks that split up existing
skills.


> Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track
> of the point values of my NPCs.

Whether you keep track of them or not, they still have them.  I don't
normally keep track of individual points either, but I do make sure
that on average they conform to the suggested totals.  I've been in
far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX 12, Combat
Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30 points.


> And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead
> them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.

I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd have such an NPC with less
frequency than one with higher strength in that job. (By curious
coincidence, I knew someone who fitted that description a few years
ago)


> >   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case, since if you don't
> >aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!
> 
> Only at low skill.

"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?

In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or vehicle
movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a median about
-8.  Snap shot numbers tend to be around the 10-12 mark for pistols,
SMGs and shotguns, so more than half the time you need a skill of at
least 18 to avoid incurring a further -4 snap shot penalty.

That's without anything tricky like firing while walking or running,
recoil penalties, excluding any particularly unusual (and penalty
laden) situations I've played, and not using the various psychological
penalties introduced in GURPS High-Tech which would often make it much
worse still.


More than ever, I'm convinced we play in totally different games.
It's interesting to compare experiences, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:39:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:39:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.

Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.

I'm not kidding.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:57:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B889A605.240E5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 3:04 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:
> 
> 1: Head
> 2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
> 3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
> 5 Left leg
> 6 Right leg
> 
> Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard
> urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> 
> If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a
> 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this
> roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> 
> I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed
> is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll
> 1D12, you only hit on a 1.
> 
> However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting,
> sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time
> to aim carefully.

Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty,
it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:57:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:57:01 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202082242470.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202072201.g17M1vL19936@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208155403.009f9530@mindspring.com>

At 10:58 PM 2/8/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >Douglas Berry writes:
>
> >It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
> >and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
> >planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
> >planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
> >organized for off-planet movement.
>
>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?

No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary 
defense force.  The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the 
worlds of the subsector.  They are expected to be ready at all times for 
duty on any world.  They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are 
discussed on page 16 of GF.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:16:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:16:16 EST
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
Message-ID: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I didn't have 
any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of cargo is supposed to be.
   Also, what is the storage capacity of a missile turret. I'm thinking I 
read a turret can store 12 missles, but I also seem to remember there being a 
reference for storage of either 3 or 4 missiles.
   Thanks
  -Ken-
 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 23:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:43:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020208.191851.-320489.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> >Say like the FUZION System?
> 
> I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that 
> system like?

FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
(i.e. Champions).


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:20:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:20:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013214045.6212.ajackson@ping>

MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    Hi gang,
>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I didn't have 
> any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of cargo is supposed to
> be. 
Real-world figure is about 5 tons/dton for typical ship-based freight (one
register ton is 100 cf or 0.2 dtons).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:24:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20020208.191851.-320489.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013214285.4086.ajackson@ping>

knightsky@juno.com writes:
> > >Say like the FUZION System?
> > 
> > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that 
> > system like?
> 
> FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> (i.e. Champions).

And meshed rather poorly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:49:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
References: <F79uHdLZ03xv3Ho8Xu1000173eb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C647232.F81E0822@mb.sympatico.ca>

The first edition of Traveller had ships using their full fuel allocation, 1st
ed. HG had the jump governor.  By Deluxe Traveller/Traveller BookHG 2ed that
had changed, allowing fuel used to be based on jump#.
Douglas

Walt Smith wrote:

> Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I consigned [DGP] to the "whatever" pile after their MT jump
> >fuel ruling.  They decided that a ship used all it's jump fuel
> >for a jump of ANY length because the engines were "tuned" to
> >operate at their maximum rating.
> >So, a scout/courier jumping one parsec would use all of it's
> >onboard jump fuel because it's jump drive was rated at 2 parsecs.
> >      Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Interrogative!!??!!
>
> Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
> *not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors
> allow a ship to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps
> less than her maximum jump rating - meaning, of course, that the
> default in CT once was that all fuel gets burned.  I don't have
> a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as well.
>
> DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
> up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own.
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:40:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
In-Reply-To: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200202082350.g18NoHh02530@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b88a1fde9b6a@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:50 PM -0800 2/8/02, jimv wrote:
>Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
>the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
>a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
>resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
>mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
>combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
>complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
>produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
>preprogrammed machinery."
>
>It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
>Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
>sort having this innate ability?

Hard to say.  It isn't theoretically impossible (cells are, after 
all, machines of a kind).  As to making life, any cell that divides, 
and plant the produces seeds, etc make life.  I don't know if I would 
call what the sheol does "artificial" life except maybe to the degree 
that the new organisms aren't copies of themselves or permutations of 
themselves and a mate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:46:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013214045.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>

 I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
has gone through several incarnations and survived as
a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
Is it the common and continually growing background?
What is it in you opinion?
 For myself, I like the fact that it doesn't just give
you stats - all of the versions give you a design
sequence showing you how to generate those stats. This
was revolutionary when I found it in the 1980s because
it gave gamers the freedom to both customize their
universe and have it be compatible with others.

Whopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:57:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 01:57:47 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013214285.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEPECEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> > > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that
> > > system like?
> >
> > FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> > (i.e. Champions).
>
> And meshed rather poorly.

Being a co-author of a supplement for Fuzion (and thus having some
experience with the workings of the system), I'd say that "poorly" is not
exactly the term that applies here. It's more like "meshed like $&%#@".

IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion (imagine you
combine the realism of AD&D1 with the elegance of Rolemaster and simplicity
of Chivalry and Sorcery) and does not even have a coherent skill mechanic.

Oh - before someone asks: I like Interlock. That's how I became introduced
to Fuzion and helped writing that thingie.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:44:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:44:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013219050.2767.ajackson@ping>

Mark F. Cook writes:

> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.

Well, if they really heard sirens that soon, one might suspect a setup...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:32:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <200202082155.g18LttK28168@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>

Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:

>ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
>
>GM: He grabs your gun.
>PC: What!? I jump him!
>GM: He raises the gun...
>PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
>GM: And blows his brains out.
>PC & PC 2: ohshit.
>GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
>
>Ethan

Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


         - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:53:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:53:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
Message-ID: <F232ULd1irS7rJT7vj90001704a@hotmail.com>

Mark F. Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:
>
>Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
>Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
>suicide should be fired.

Even so, the PC's may be in trouble (depending on local
laws) for something like negligence, reckless endangerment,
accessory, firearms offenses, etc.  They may have just wanted
to talk to the recently deceased, now they're at risk of
talking to the authorities for the next couple of years.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 01:56:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sean Bayan Schoonmaker)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:56:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B889C1B0.1F53%s_schoon@pacbell.net>

On 2/8/02 4:46 PM, "Jeff Hopper" <jeff37923@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What is it in you opinion?

In short, the rich background.

Schoon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:03:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:03:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B889ADB3.24115%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/8/02 3:39 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> 
> I'm not kidding.
> 

Well, if you roll spleen on the organs table, it's a flesh wound.  We had a
PC who had lost a kidney.  Later on she had several kidney hits, but always
the one that was gone.

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:09:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202090258310.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>I wrote:
>>>Douglas Berry writes:
>>
>>>It is important to understand the difference between Mora's planetary army,
>>>and the Unified Army of Mora Subsector.  The US is drawn from all the
>>>planets of the subsector, and is designed to be moved by the Navy.  Mora's
>>>planetary force is designed for local defense, and isn't set up or
>>>organized for off-planet movement.
>>
>>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
>>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?
>
>No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary
>defense force.

So Mora's army isn't set up or organized for off-planet movement but still
has a number of troops available for off-world activities?

>The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the worlds of the
>subsector. They are expected to be ready at all times for duty on any world.
>They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are discussed on page 16 of GF.

But colonial forces ARE Imperial forces. Well, colonial _squadrons_ are
subsector forces anyway. I suppose that strictly speaking we have no proof
that the word isn't used differently about troops. It seems rather odd,
though. Only, if that is the case, where are the subsector troops in FFW?
We have a smattering of marines, 16 named colonial troops and 14 numbered
colonial troops. Where are the Unified Armies?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb  8 22:04:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:04:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] No, no: _really_ simple design system
References: <200202081735.g18HZPs26009@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C644B66.2304A548@together.net>

> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:29:32 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> >
> >       How soon they forget...
> >
> >       Steve Jackson's first game design was Ogre, published by Metagaming
> > (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf). Followed by GEV, an
> > expansion for Ogre (which I have a copy of on my gaming shelf).
> > Metagaming made several other fine microgames (several of which are
> > sitting on my gaming shelf).
> 
> Hmmm. methinks I'd like to pay visit to this gaming shelf....I have Ogre
> somewhere at home, and I have the book to Melee, again, buried somwhere
> at home but I haven't seen it in ages.
> 
> Didn't Car Wars originate in thsi format, too?
> 

	Yes. After Steve left Metagaming (and taking Ogre/GEV and The Space
Gamer with him) and started Steve Jackson Games, he liked the Microgame
format so much he produced several more: Raid on Iran, Kung Fu 2100 (the
version from the Space gamer is on my shelf), One Page Bulge, Battlesuit
(also from Space Gamer), Car Wars (the original, plus some expansions).
Car Wars was a big hit and they kept producing expansion sets for it.

	If you want a simple vehicle design system (dragging this back on
topic), you really can't beat Car Wars. The final expansions produced
cars, trucks, motorcycles, 18 wheelers, buses, RVs, boats, planes,
hovercraft, race cars, and a whole slew of cool equipment and weapons. 

	My Gaming shelf is an odd mixture. There's a whole bunch of stuff from
the 80s (Traveller, AD&D and SGJ mostly), and I seem to have missed
buying anything gaming related for most of the 90s. And now I've started
again, and back filling a few important bits of the collections. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:29:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:29:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202081829000.387-100000@rhylanor>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:14:30 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Military Units


>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>Subject: Military Units
>
>Howdy
>
>Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>
>(1) Military Units
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>tanks would you get in armoured units ?
>
>The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
>squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as
>the command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

In Britain (and for the mostpart Australia, Canada, India etc.)

A section (squad in the US) is 2x fireteams of usually 4 men. Each is built
around a weapon (a LMG in modern armies) plus riflemen/ grenadiers. The
section commander would be a Corporal, who commands the 1st fireteam
(Charlie), a Lance Corporal is the second in command (2ic) and commands the
second fireteam (Delta).

The platoon is 3 sections (24 men) plus the platoon commander (a
Lieutenant), platoon sergeant (a Sergeant), platoon signaller and a 2 man
51mm Mortar team for a total of 29 men. Under the new organisation, a fire
support section will be created with 2x2 man GPMG teams, lead by the no1
mortar man, the no2 mortar man becoming platoon runner for an organisation
of 33 men. If a mechanised formation this would have 4 APCs. In an Armoured
unit the platoon is called a troop and consists of 4 Tanks and their crews.

The company is 3 rifle platoons plus admin elements totally ~100 men,
commanded by a Major with a Captain as 2ic, the senior NCO is a Company
Sergeant Major. This has ~14 APCs (12 in the platoons plus the OC and 2ics
wagons), plus other vehicles (the Company Quartermaster Sergeants wagon
etc.). An armoured company is called a Squadron and is currently 14 tanks
(although 10 years ago was 18)

The battalion is 3 rifle companies plus admin and support elements. The
support company has a 81mm Mortar platoon (6-9x 81mm Mortar, commanded by a
captain), an Anti-Tank platoon (12 MILAN), an Assault Pioneer platoon (the
battalions integral assault engineers) and a Recce platoon (8x Light
Tanks), all commanded by captains, with a captain as 2ic and a major in
command. An armoured battalion is known as a Regiment. Infantry Regiments
are not fighting formations, but administrative formations containing a
number of battalions (currently the Parachute Regiment is largest with 3
Regular and 1 TA battalion, followed by the PWRR with 2 regular battalions,
1 TA battalion and 2 TA companies)

Total strength of a Warrior platoon is 741 all ranks, 52 Warriors, 12 Milan
Posts, 21 FV-432 (an older APC used in the utility role) and 8x Sabre light
tanks. A light role battalion is 620 all ranks.

An armoured brigade is 2x Armoured Regiments, 2x Infantry Battalions, an
Artillery Regiment (32x AS-90 155mm Howitzers, a Battalion equivalent), an
Army Air Corps detatchment (usually 13 Helicopters), a Logistics Squadron
(18x Heavy Lift Vehicles each capable of carrying 50 tons of stores), a
Field Ambulance detatchment, a REME workshop (~maintenance company),
Engineer Squadron, Swingfire Troop (Long Range AT weapons), Javelin Battery
(~company, 36x SAM firing posts), a Provost unit (~company of MPs) and an
armoured recce squadron.

This is a formation is ~4,500 men, with over 100 tanks (116) and over 100
APCs (104). It is a fully realised fighting unit, capable of being deployed
largely independently and is commanded by a Brigadier.

1st Armoured Division has 3 armoured brigades (plus additional elements)
and a strength of 17,200.

A Corps is no longer a fixed command in most armies, but a field command to
which Divisions and other units are assigned. During Market Garden in WW2,
XXX Corps was over 200,000 men strong, but afterwards dropped to around
20,000, before being reassigned divisions for another operation.

>(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?

Have a look at www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/index.htm several there.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200202070347.g173laU07571@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
 <3C62B94A.8030507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330104b88a3777afda@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:28 AM -0700 2/7/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>
>>
>>   At some point or other, *everyone* has teamed up with/supported terrorism.
>>
>>   OTOH, not much of the Northern Alliance were "terrorists" in any 
>>meaningful sense - except that they were clearly unlawful combatants
>>fighting against the de facto government of Afganistan :|
>
>Actually, the Taliban were only recognized as the legitimate 
>government by two or three states: Pakistan (who installed them in 
>the first place), our staunch ally Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. (iirc)
>
>The US certainly did not recognize them.
>
>That matters, since it lets *us* call the Taliban  forces 'Unlawful 
>combatants'...

Actually, I read on Cnn.com that the US has decided to classify 
Taliban (but not Al-Queda(sp?)) as POW's.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:33:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020114221620.F714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b868f875c3e5@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]>
 <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]>
 <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:51 AM +1100 2/9/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  >Furthermore, a dedicated trading character is always going to be
>>  >better at trading than a dilettante, even at 2 points per level.
>>
>>  But there is a big difference between simply being "better" and being
>>  _the_ one.
>
>I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but increasing the number of
>skills *penalises* the dedicated trading character compared to the
>dilettante.

I've GM and played a number of charcter types.  I made up a GURPS 
Traveller campaign before there was anything published.  Increasing 
the number of skills penalitzes both.  As you force more of a 
commitment to a character type, the fewer dillitants you can have.

>
>Consider a Trader character spending 36 points on primary career
>skills.  With 3 skills, they can put 12 points into each one for IQ+5
>each.  Another character might put 12 points total into trading skills
>for IQ+1 level each, 4 levels worse than the trader.  (e.g. skill 17
>vs 13).
>
>Now consider a sourcebook that introduces 3 new skills for a total of
>6.  The Trader gets IQ+2 in each, the other gets IQ level.  The gap
>has narrowed to only 2 skill levels.  (e.g. skill 14 vs 12).  So the
>character that used to be much better than the dilettante is now only
>marginally better.  Furthermore, it is now possible for the secondary
>to be *better* than the primary trader in at least one area of trading
>and probably two.

First of all, all those skills are never needed equally.  You vary 
how many points you put them into them.  Also, the "dilettante" I'm 
talking about is one that figures that they can put a point or so 
into one or two skills and do that in pinch.  Adding more skills 
_does_ lessen this sort of thing.

>  > Fine, but the points are for PC.  I actually don't even keep track
>>  of the point values of my NPCs.
>
>Whether you keep track of them or not, they still have them.  I don't
>normally keep track of individual points either, but I do make sure
>that on average they conform to the suggested totals.  I've been in
>far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX 12, Combat
>Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30 points.

Sounds OK to me.  Maybe "high typical".  That would be a typical 
experenced fighter (all fighters probably develop combat reflexes. 
There has been a lot of debate in GURPS how much someone with a x 
years experience should have for points in skill (a pointless 
exercise in my mind) but 30 can be justified for someone who has been 
around a few years.  DX 12 is fine (clumsy people are, IMO, not going 
to go into the marines, etc.)

>  > And when you do make up the NPC, one should think about what lead
>>  them to that career.  I wouldn't make up a ST 8 ditch digger.
>
>I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd have such an NPC with less
>frequency than one with higher strength in that job. (By curious
>coincidence, I knew someone who fitted that description a few years
>ago)

And they would have the work harder to do the job.  You might have 
someone with IQ 10 be a doctor but they would have to work harder 
(reflected in more character points) and/or not be as good a doctor.

>  > >   Furthermore, it's an 'all-or-nothing' case, since if you don't
>>  >aim you usually get a snap shot penalty!
>>
>>  Only at low skill.
>
>"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?

Hardly, the base snap shot skill for most ranged weapons is much less.

>
>In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
>concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or vehicle
>movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a median about
>-8.  Snap shot numbers tend to be around the 10-12 mark for pistols,
>SMGs and shotguns, so more than half the time you need a skill of at
>least 18 to avoid incurring a further -4 snap shot penalty.

Thats because the players could do it.  If they had lower skill 
penalties, they would wait for more favorable conditions.  That is 
one reason that players want higher skill, so they can do the 
difficult stuff.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:00:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> > Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard
> > urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> > 
> > If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a
> > 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this
> > roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> > 
> > I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed
> > is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll
> > 1D12, you only hit on a 1.

> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per
> casualty, it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

True, the difference between military and FBI data is likely because 
of the fact that most urban fire fights involving the police or the FBI 
are at a range of 20 ft. or less.  Also, I am over-estimating a bit, 
IIRC, the actual chance is about 10%.  Also, most shots don't kill, 
in fact IIRC, less than 25% actually kill or incapacitate the target 
during the fire fight.  The statistics I've read essentially look like 
people get hit several times by bullets that don't do much (at the 
time) and then they get hit in the head, heart, or some similarly 
vital area and then fall down and die in short order.

OTOH, combat with shotguns or high powered rifles would produce 
far different results wrt lethality.  

The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

>From what I've seen, used in this fashion, the term "realistic" 
essentially means that the resolution system accurately simulates 
the various action-oriented TV show and films that have formed 
most gamers images of combat.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:14:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:14:44 +1100
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
References: <6.23b9c51f.2995c450@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020209141444.B26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I
> didn't have any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of
> cargo is supposed to be.

Typically about 5 tonnes/dton, I believe.  I can't find a reference
offhand, though :(

Some items may be lower than 1 tonne/dton, while bulk liquids (in
containers) would routinely go over 10 tonnes/dton.


>    Also, what is the storage capacity of a missile turret. I'm thinking I 
> read a turret can store 12 missles, but I also seem to remember there being a 
> reference for storage of either 3 or 4 missiles.

A GURPS missile rack includes space for 77 missiles.  A turret can
hold up to 3 racks for a total of 231 missiles.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 21:24:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
References: <20020208184644.SISR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C649677.156DEF3F@premier.net>



Laning wrote:
> 
> No attribution necessary.  It's only a sig, and the Internet equivalent of
> a cheap witticism cooked up at a cocktail party.  :->
> 
> If you really prefer to have an attribution, then either:
> Laning;
> Laning Polatty, or;
> Laning of the TML
> seem like suitable possibilities.  But leave my email address out of it,
> please.  :->

What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:31:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209004659.35845.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000701c1b11a$33042420$2f7de40c@loki>

Traveller is great 'cause it is wide open.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2236@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Say like the FUZION System?
<

FUZION is a terrific system - and the vehicle design rules are probably the
best there is - for gearheads AND non-gearheads!

Unfortunately, the pollution of the HERO powers system (and all the
attendant problems) seems to have doomed this excellent design. 
The HERO players don't want FUZION and the Cyberpunk/Interlock players dont
want the Champions powers. A shame really. 

You probably know about the Atomik rules, but you might not know about this
excellent scifi resource:
http://www.mecha.com/~conkle/lightspeed/links.html

Good luck - I'd love to see what you come up with! Solomani Mechas! 

>>>>I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's that
system 
>>>>like?

Take the Cyberpunk Interlock rules and combine them with the Champions
Power rules to make a new universal and generic system. Allow the
liscensing to be very unrestrictive to allow anyone to publish FUZION
products.





Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] WarpWar
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2238@compuserve.com>

I rather like that game myself!

Launch/Life Boat (20 ton) S1: TL0, PD = 2 (5), H=1, BP 3, MCr14
Ship's Boat (30 ton) S2: TL0, PD=12 (9), H=2, B=1, BP 15, MCr16
Slow Boat (30 ton)  S3: TL0, PD = 9 (9), H=2, BP 11, MCr15
Pinnace (40 ton) S4: TL0, PD=12 (15), H=3, B=1, BP 16, MCr20
Slow Pinnace (40 ton) S5: TL0, PD = 9 (15), H=4, B=1, BP 14, MCr18
Module Cutter (50 ton) S6: TL0, PD=12 (15), H=3, B=1, BP 16, MCr28
a. ATV Module, MCr18, b. Fuel Module, MCr1, c. Open Module, MCr2
Shuttle (95 ton) S7: TL0, PD=12 (9), H=8, BP 20, MCr33
Fighter (10 ton) S8: TL0, PD = 10 (12), H=1, B=1, BP 12, MCr18

Scout "Type S" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B=1, T=1, M=1 (3), SR = 1 (S1)
CR = 0 (L, T, P2, M1, M, RF, AM, M, J1, J2, N), BP 20, MCr29.43

Scout/Courier "Type J" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B=1, SC = 1, SR = 1 (S1)
CR = 0 (L, T, P3, M2, AM, J2, N), BP 19, MCr29.43

Scout/Escort "Type J" class, 100 ton Hypership
H1: TL0, PD=12, G = 2, Q=1, H=1, B1=1, B2=1
CR = 0 (T, P1, P2, AE, RF, M, J1, N), BP 18, MCr29.43

Free Trader "Type A" class, 200 ton Hypership
H2: TL0, PD = 13, G = 1, Q=2, H=8, T=1, M=1 (3), SR = 1 (S2)
C1=0 (T, L, G, AE, RF, AM, M, J1, N), BP 27, MCr37.08

Subsidized Merchant  Transport, 400 ton Hypership
H3: TL0, PD = 15, G = 1, Q=2, H=20, SR = 1 (S1), 
C1=0 (AE M, J1, N), BP 39, MCr101.03

Subsidized Merchant  Armed, 400 ton Hypership
H3: TL0, PD = 15, G = 1, Q=2, H=20, SR = 1 (S1), B=1, SC = 1, 
C2=0 (T, L, P3, G M1, AE, RF, AM M, J1, N), BP 41, MCr101.03

Subsidized Liner, 600 ton Hypership
H4: TL0, PD = 16, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, SR = 1 (S1), H=13, BP 38, MCr236.87

Yacht, 200 ton Hypership
H5: TL0, PD = 13, G = 1, Q=2, SR = 1 (S2), H=2, B=1, SC = 1
CR = 0 (T, L AE, AM M, J1, N), BP 21, MCr51.057

Mercenary Cruiser, 800 ton Hypership
H6: TL0, PD = 17, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, SR = 3 (S1, S6b, S6c), H=8, T=1, M=4
(12), 
C3=0 (P1, P2 M1, AE, RF, AM M, J1, J2, N), BP  41, MCr445.95

Patrol Cruiser, 400 tons
H7: TL0, PD = 16, G = 6 (G3), Q=2, H=5, B1 = 3, B2=3, T=2, M=2 (6), SR = 1
(S2), SC = 1, CS = 0 (T, L, G, P1, P3, P4, S1 M1 AE, RF M, J1, J2, N), BP 
41, MCr221.04

Laboratory Ship, 400 ton Hypership
H8: TL0, PD = 15, G = 2, Q=2, SR = 1 (S4), H=3, BP 23, MCr158.98

Safari Ship, 200 ton Hypership
H9: TL0, PD = 13, G = 2, Q=2, SR = 1 (S1), H=1, BP 19, MCr81.08

Corsair, 400 ton Hypership
H10: TL0, PD =15, G=2, Q=2, H=16, B1=1, B2=1, T=1, M=4 (12), SR = 1 (S4), 
C2=0 (P4, G, T, S2, L, M3, AE, RF, AM, M, J2, N), BP 43, MCr ???

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Misjump Adventures?
Message-ID: <200202082243_MC3-F155-222E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I found my stack of Challenge magazines after going though my bookshelf a 
little more thoroughly. The adventure in question is "The Madness Effect", 
written by Paul Lukas and published in Challenge 75 <

Thanks! I'll update the list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 02:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:53:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Murder
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205112713.01e34050@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b88a3f05764b@[143.232.119.186]>

I'm one of those who think it would defined on each world.  (Thought, 
of course, laws that result in signicant killing of visitors would 
get the world an Amber classification or and interdiction).  After 
all, murder in the US isn't a federal crimes (except in some special 
circumstances) and is prosecuted by the states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:00:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:00:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Rebellious Local worlds.
In-Reply-To: <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <F39bIAMNZFlH78TI2vG000123a4@hotmail.com>
 <20020205215311.79e624c6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <p04330108b88a3fc6a3ea@[143.232.119.186]>

Didn't the Imperium bombard as world in, or near, Llelish for being 
rebellious?  There are very few mentions of succession of local 
worlds.

IMO, the Imperium has the ability to crush a local world if it so 
chooses.  Of course that requires a lot of effort.  I think local 
world can get away with "some" as long as they don't push too far 
that the Imperium decides it is worth the effort of slapping them 
down.  Thought the local world should include the cost of lesser 
Imperial pressures (Amber/Red Classifications, support for 
competitors, etc.) as a price for their complaining.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:26:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Journalists in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <200201202214.g0KMEM918382@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200201202214.g0KMEM918382@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb88a4506e1d3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:14 PM -0600 1/20/02, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 01/11/02 at 07:20 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
><grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>ObTrav - To what lengths would the 3I go to to hide warship losses?
>>There  is no First Amendment and journalists are pretty much at the
>>mercy of  whatever polity they anger.
>
>While this is true, it is also possible to play the 3I as with a
>remote and mostly indifferent government that would be slow to respond
>to threats, especially threats that didn't have major and direct
>effects on intersteller trade. In an environment like that a
>"travelling journalist" could get away with muckraking, expose's,
>scandalizing, and downright security breeches...if they were careful.
>Concentrate on local and regional things (less likely to bring the
>real weight of the 3I down on you, disquise your identity (always
>publish under a pseudonym and with a "public face" that doesn't match
>your own, travel incogneto and with coverstories), find and live in a
>safe haven and don't foul your nest (no reporting on things in your
>home system and pick that home system with an eye to one that will
>protect you from extradition), keep on the move, and be prepared to
>either drop stories that are "too hot" or "for the good of the
>Imperium."
>
>You know I can see a campaign there, a team of journalists working on
>assignment, undercover, for some big media broker, especially, if they
>are the sort of journalists that can't help but get involved in the
>stories they are covering.

In the TAS news items there are some instances where reporters 
challenge Imperial officials (on reports of Ine Givar Activity). 
There seems to be _some_ independence, at least for influential 
organizations.  Either because there are reporting organizations who 
can withstand at least some pressure or because this kind of 
reporting is useful uo significant parts of society (for example, the 
nobility like how it helps them keep track of what the emperor is 
doing).
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:43:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:43:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2235@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.

Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
from the other books.

Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
wouldn't be a credibility gap.
<

Well, I actually totally agree with that. 

But in this case I mean that a simpler design system doesn't need to be
compatible with any PARTICULAR design system. 

You should be able to build all the Traveller ships with the Traveller
trade-offs. But trying to match a particular design system - rather than
the standard "Traveller" ships seems like a "requirements flaw" (I'm
betting there is enough people that understand that concept on this board!)


>>>>>>> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
>>>>>>> roleplaying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves
knowing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if
a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22
caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same
damage?

That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
How would  you like it if the only way to figure out how much damage the
pistol does is to derive it from the barrel length? Dont laugh until you've
read Aftermath! 

>>>>>Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into
a
>>>>>starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with

Great - tell me how many tons of what I can and can't put into the ship.
That's valuable, but surface area? That depends on what picture I use for
the ship! Using surface area is a clever idea, but hardpoints or tons are
much more 'Travelleresque'. Surface are can be 'fudged' - Traveller has
obviously not used this - they've used hardpoints. I think it's an
interesting idea, but not very playable/ workable. 

>>>>>You have deckplans for the _Tigress_-class?  If so, I'd like a copy.
;-)

Doesn't exist! No really....I've never heard of it! What is a Tigress-class
ship?

>>>>>Also, does your deckplan edict apply to starports and cities?  If so,
do
>>>>>you really have reasonably detailed layouts of all the cities in your
>>>>>campaign?

Actually, yes it does. And acutally yes I do! 

Judges Guild's Fifty Starports and lots of Cyberpunk modules help here. 

>>>>>Both cities and ships can play useful roles in a campaign without
having
>>>>>a detailed layout available.

Yes but I find that using the same ship and city designs has even more
useful roles. 

>>>>>Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
>>>>>system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
>>>>>ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
>>>>>these ships, you can't build it."  

So what - the GM can take away ANYTHING they want to! 

>>>>>I enjoy gearheading; you apparently
>>>>>don't.  Is your gaming happiness more important than mine?  

Well, as a matter of fact. Yes. To me it is! Gearheading is like miniature
painting. It's cool and sometimes it's useful, but a game shouldn't be
build around it (which is why Games Workshop doesn't make RPGs!) 

It's *another* hobby with some similarities. So yeah, do the roleplaying
tools first - then the gearhead tools IMHO.

>>>>>If we create
>>>>>simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to
make
>>>>>sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
>>>>>detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.

Yes, but that's VERY different than "fully compatible". I agree they should
involve similar tradeoffs and build the same kind of ships. I don't agree
that they should be FULLY compatible. That's seems like an engineering
misnomer. 

We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression that we
were talking about designing the simple system using everything in the
complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....

>>>>>Note also that an extremely simple design sequence is likely to have
>>>>>trouble with ships over a couple thousand dtons; designing an AHL, let
>>>>>alone a _Tigress_, with a simple design system is unlikely to give
>>>>>plausible results.

Hey, I never said it was easy! Okay, so let's not make it EXTREMELY simple.
Just the right amount of SIMPLER. 

>>>>>Details that you consider extraneous may well be vital to another
>>>>>campaign, and vice versa.  Whose details shall we dump, then?  

Hmmm. Let's see. I know. Mine! For the system that I want to use. Let's
dump those details. I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else. (Though I
think a 'middle-ground' Traveller system should be put in place). 

>>>>>Far better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details,
even if
>>>>>only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.

Not if those details *detract* from the usability of the system. The
details I mentioned losing are those that detract from using the system
IMHO. Remember, no one expects the gearhead to use a system that I will
like! But there's not much point if I wouldn't use it either!

I don't mind have those 'extraneous' details as optional add-on modules.
"Generic Hardpoint" versus "Detailed Hardpoint" for example. It's only when
I can't build a scout ship without measuring the surface area that I balk
(another exaggerated example). 

>>>>>For instance, in a merchant campaign, it may be sufficient simply to
>>>>>declare that military ships can normally detect merchants before the
>>>>>merchant can detect the military ship.  OTOH, in an Imperial Navy
>>>>>campaign, such rules-of-thumb are insufficient.  The quality of one
>>>>>ship's sensor suite over her opponent's may well spell the difference
>>>>>between which ship wins and which ship dies.

I didn't have any complaints about the way this was handled in QSSD. I dont
see them as being mutually exclusive.

Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
all. 

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 03:42:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:42:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202082242_MC3-F155-222D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
1) Sensor Capabilities -- 
2) Fuel Tonnage -- 
3) Price -- 

So far, I agree with this. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Some brave soul could
concevably design a spreadsheet so the designer simply:

Choose a tech level
[all relevant systems assumed to be built at this TL]<

I think Crew, Cargo and Fuel should also be variable.

>>>>Please keep tweaking and refining and continue to post updates.  I 
>>>>think this system is already a huge step in the right design-
>>>>philosophical direction towards something non-gearheads can 
>>>>comfortably use to produce ship designs that are still compatible the 
>>>>rough physical parameters of the Traveller rules, and I appluad you 
>>>>for devising it.
>>>>Trent

Yeah. What he said. 



Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:28:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:28:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <F78pfkNsjUHQHh2wLCV0000555a@hotmail.com>

>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
>  I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
>has gone through several incarnations and survived as
>a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
>people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
>it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
>Is it the common and continually growing background?
>What is it in you opinion?

I think what keeps bringing me back to Traveller is the simplicity and 
elegance of its ruleset.  It's very easy for a GM to get a game up and 
running quickly, and at the same time there's plenty of room to add 
additional rules however an individual GM sees fit.

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+ tg+ t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+ st+
      ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:44:32 +1100
Subject: [TML] {CBC} Canon
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <20020115212209.J714@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b86b77a1a7cc@[198.123.22.173]> <20020117154416.A12329@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433010bb8861705ec9c@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207081147.B21304@freeman.little-possums.net> <p0433011ab8875f95e447@[143.232.119.186]> <20020207212637.B22381@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330100b889e80476ee@[143.232.119.186]> <20020209105157.A26480@freeman.little-possums.net> <p04330105b88a382edab4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020209154432.C26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> I've GM and played a number of charcter types.  I made up a GURPS
> Traveller campaign before there was anything published.

Likewise here.


>  Increasing the number of skills penalitzes both.

I agree.  However, it penalizes the commited character more.


>  As you force more of a commitment to a character type, the fewer
> dillitants you can have.

What we appear to be disagreeing over is whether increasing the number
of skills forces more commitment to a character type.

I've more typically seen exactly the opposite.  As you increase the
number of skills, players who are not already committed to a character
type see an increase in the number of things their character *won't*
be able to do if they commit to a single-path character.  And so they
invest a few 0.5 and 1 points to be at least 'OK' in a larger number
of fields.  And they're rewarded for it, by being almost as good as
the committed characters.


> First of all, all those skills are never needed equally.  You vary
> how many points you put them into them.

That makes it even worse, since now the other members of the group are
probably better than you in at least one and probably two trading
skills, and trading is meant to be *your* strong point.


>  Also, the "dilettante" I'm talking about is one that figures that
> they can put a point or so into one or two skills and do that in
> pinch.

Same here.  Only it's more common in my experience to put a points in
skills that get used.  If trading uses 6 skills instead of 3, they
spread the same number of points across twice the skills.  Half the
points per skill means only one less skill level for *them*, but it's
far worse for the specialist; typically 3-4 levels worse.


>  Adding more skills _does_ lessen this sort of thing.

In your experience, not mine.  In my experience, it makes it *worse*.


> > I've been in far too many games where a 'typical' person has DX
> >12, Combat Reflexes, and displayed skills totalling at least 30
> >points.
>
> Sounds OK to me.  Maybe "high typical".  That would be a typical 
> experenced fighter

OK for a typical accountant, salesperson, housewife, or bus conductor
(all four examples seen in play)?  Or even a typical car thief?  When
I say "typical person", I do mean "typical person" and not "typical
Marine".


> >"Low skill" meaning anything under level 18?
> 
> Hardly, the base snap shot skill for most ranged weapons is much less.

Did you perhaps not see the word "adjusted" in the rules?

   /Snap Shot Number/ (SS): If your adjusted "to hit" roll is greater
 than or equal to this number, you may fire /without aiming/, yet incur
 no -4 snap shot penalty, as long as the target was in view at the
 beginning of your turn.
  ...

This means that you apply all other modifiers *before* comparing with
the snap shot number of the weapon.  This is backed up explictly in
the summary table of ranged combat modifiers and descriptively a
couple of sentences later in the snap shot description.  It is further
verified by an example in High-Tech.


> >In most firearm encounters I've played in GURPS, range, cover,
> >concealment, weather, lighting, erratic target, smoke, and/or
> >vehicle movement almost always add up to about -5 to -20 with a
> >median about -8.
[...]
> Thats because the players could do it.

No; they almost always can't.  The penalties are there because that's
the conditions under which they're fighting.  If they're lucky, they
can try to change the conditions for the better.  If they're unlucky,
they can try to make them worse so they have a chance to get away
without being shot themselves.  But most of the time their opponents
are trying to do the opposite -- that's why they're called opponents
:)


> If they had lower skill penalties, they would wait for more
> favorable conditions.

In most cases, that's not going to happen.  For example, the sun won't
rise for another 6 hours; the forest isn't going to disappear; their
opponents aren't going to come out into the open and walk slowly up to
point blank range for them.

In most cases, waiting for better conditions is the worst thing they
could do.  If they've got a 5% chance of hitting with a snap shot,
well, that's 5% better than not trying.  Hard on the ammo supply, but
its better to win with 2/3rds of your ammo gone than lose with a full
load.


>  That is one reason that players want higher skill, so they can do
> the difficult stuff.

Sure.  I don't think we disagree on that at all :)

Even a 5% chance to hit from a snap shot is better than the 2%, 0.5%
or none at all that lower skill might give them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 04:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:57:55 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)

Of course, I have zero personal knowledge of firefights and not a
great deal of knowledge about real-life firearm incident statistics.
I do know a lot about GURPS, though :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 05:16:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:16:58 EST
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
Message-ID: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>

   I guess I should've made myself a bit clearer in my first post (which 
happens to me quite often it seems); I'm currently using MT (with the odd 
bits from CT thrown in as well), and I'm unsure as to the source, but 
somewhere a missile turret was able to hold 3, or 4, or 12 missiles, and, 
being unable to find the source, am curious about it. Am I just imagining 
these numbers?
   A missile turret that holds 231 missiles? _Egads_, but GURPS is just plain 
_amazing_. I've had this apparent misconception that GURPS Trav was put 
together using the same conventions as GOT (Good Ol Traveller); differing 
mostly in the actual game mechanics... I wonder what the volume/displacement 
of such an amazing turret would be in CT or MT.Boy, a 100 ton missile bay 
wouldn't even hold that many! :)
  -Ken-
   Who hasn't actually looked at GURPS since the Madlands and Celts books 
(but WILL be getting the Hellboy book)


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:09:53 -0500
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209061213.WADA319.dorsey@link>

ROFLMAO!

Was it maybe two years ago now that someone else asked a similar question,
and sparked off a HUGE spate of flames that lasted quite a while?  To wit:
"Why has every version of Traveller failed?"  I think whether it has
repeatedly failed or repeatedly succeeded may be a
glass-empty-or-glass-full thing.  I certainly hope this equally innocent
inquiry doesn't spark all the flames that older inquiry did.  LOL.

Since you ask, my opinion is that a whole lot of the success goes back to
the original rules.  They were clearly the best science fiction rules
available.  The only ones, for awhile.  They had a certain elegance of
design that is/was appreciated by people who like to contemplate design
issues.  It also came through that these rules were written by people who
seemed more mature and more...sophisticated than most of the other rules
that were out there.  Subsequent to the original rules, a great number of
factors have been at play in determining whether someone was currently
trying to write and publish new Traveller material and whether the
game-playing public had an appettite for same.  Nobody has quite recaptured
the magic of the earlier days, but a lot of us are still willing to buy or
consider buying any new Traveller material that comes out in hopes of
seeing that magic again.  Some attempts at creating it have been better
than others.

For the longest time, I just liked that the rules were easy for anyone to
use and that they did a good job of letting you play the vast majority of
science fiction concepts/novels/stories ever published.  Except time
travel, but who can be expected to do well incorporating comprehensive time
travel rules into an RPG, eh?  As GDW amassed more and more material
covering the details of their Traveller universe, I became quite fond of
having that much well-written background material easily available.
(Having just praised the quantity of it, I have to say I usually find any
given supplement or adventure a little too thin on detail, and some of the
adventures were too dependent on the referee completely manipulating the
plot, without the players really much having any influence over their own
destinies.)

As other companies have produced their own science fiction RPGs, Traveller
still seemed superior.  Partly because of better production standards from
GDW, partly because of above-mentioned elegance of design and ease of play,
and partly because they got a good mix of what-if suppositions to base
their rules on that proved very popular with most science fiction fans who
play RPGs.  Cheap and abundant energy, FTL travel available but expensive
both financially and in terms of the time required, antigravity, thrusters,
etc.  As well, the rules that modelled these things tried to do it in terms
that are almost intuitively meaningful.  So that your willing suspension of
disbelief isn't stretched more than necessary.

So, short answer to the question:  Good writing and good game design,
especially in the original material.  But I don't think you would have
found just my short answer to be very satisfactory.

--Laning
"Art without engineering is dreaming.  Engineering without art is
calculating."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 at 16:46:59 -0800 (PST), Jeff Hopper
<jeff37923@yahoo.com> typed:
>>>
I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
has gone through several incarnations and survived as
a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
Is it the common and continually growing background?
What is it in you opinion?
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:13:23 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
Message-ID: <F40ozI9WbbjykeNXXUv00012b0b@hotmail.com>

From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>

     "Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors allow a ship 
to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps less than her maximum jump 
rating - meaning, of course, that the default in CT once was that all fuel 
gets burned.  I don't have a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2, 
but I wouldn't be surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as 
well."


Mr. Smith,

     I remember them from HG1 also.  My ancient synapses may be playing 
tricks on me but are there any costs for jump governors listed?  Any tonnage 
requirements perhaps?  Any tables so you can purchase and install them in 
your designs?  IIRC, there were not.
     If you can't choose whether or not to "buy" and "install" the device, 
the device is not an option, it is part of the standard equipment, like 
reverse in a automobile transmission.  Jump governors are a part of the 
OTU's standard jump drive "package", along with zucchai(?) crystals and hull 
grids.  The default actually means that every jump drive has an intregal 
jump governor, except in those very rare cases where the GM decided one was 
not installed for some unfathomable purpose.
     CT allows us to expend jump fuel according to the distance moved IF 
there is a jump governor installed.  MT, which makes no mention of jump 
governors in any of it's design rules, insists that you expend all your jump 
fuel regardless of distance travelled.
     So, we get the following "rules";

CT w/jump governors as standard equipment- All vessels only expend the 
amount of fuel necessary for the jump actually performed, UNLESS the GM 
decides a normally installed jump governor is either not working, damaged, 
or missing.

DGP/MT fuel ruling - All vessels expend their entire jump fuel tankage 
regardless of the length of their actual jump, DESPITE the fact that  CT 
specifically mentioned a jump governor.

     "DGP may have had strange ideas, but they didn't necessarily come
up with the idea of a ship burning all her jump fuel on their own."

     The idea of "total jump fuel use" may not have been one of DGP's 
creations, but ditching the CT jump governor "fix" most certainly was.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:28:11 +0000
Subject: [TML] Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents: Re: Wounded Colossus: Finale (long)
 )
Message-ID: <F186Od5OF8PYUxvn97E00012dc9@hotmail.com>

From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>

     "This wasn't merely a DGP thing. Early versions of CT
clearly established this as canon as well. Take a good look a 
_first_edition_ copy of Book 2:..."


Mr. Newman,

     That same edition should mention the jump governor, shouldn't it?  The 
first edition of HG does.  Neither book mentions how to go about purchasing 
or installing a jump governor though, there are no MCr costs and dTs volumes 
listed for the equipment.  To my simple mind that means that the governor is 
a standard part of every jump drive, like inertial dampers on CT starships.  
Sure there may be a few CT vessels flitting about without inertial dampers 
or jump governors, but that's up to the GM and not the design process.

     "In a single stroke, they'd invalidated years of published designs."

     "No. GDW did that. :) "

     No DGP did.
     Prior to MT and DGP's bone-headed fuel ruling, a vessel could jump 
without expending it's entire jump fuel load IF it had a jump governor 
installed.  Afterward their fuel ruling, a vessel MUST expend it's entire 
jump fuel load because jump governors no longer existed in the OTU.  This 
despite their specific mention in CT, I should add.
     In CT, GDW created the option.  In MT, DGP killed the option.  They 
invalidated years of published designs, including ones they had published 
themselves.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:30:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
References: <200202081735.g18HZPs26009@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1b1fc$6dab43a0$8b40510c@0tk0e>

>How many times have you seen the bubble-headed bleach blonde in your
>care continually misidentify that APC as a "tank", like so many did during
>the Gulf War?  Or insist on refering to every warship as a "battleship",
as
>I heard on NPR?  If they showed similar ignorance about any other topic,
>they'd be canned in a heartbeat, but military affairs don't somehow count.
>Can you imagine a reporter trotting out the obligatory February piece on
Dr.
>King without knowing what Selma was all about?
Certainly many science reporters show roughly equal level of
unfamiliarity about the science they're writing about (though not all,
of course.) I think in general we always notice errors in reports about
subjects
that we're familiar with; nothing exceptional about the ignorance shown on
military affairs.

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209064550.WFRG319.dorsey@link>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 at 19:00:05 -0800, John Snead <sneadj@mindspring.com>
typed:
>>>
The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).
<<<

I have come in recent years to hold the same opinion as Mr. Snead on this.
How many of us relish the prospect of getting our characters shot out from
under us every time there's real combat?  No fun.  But that's what would
happen in a realistic system if PCs and NPCs behave the way we like to have
them behave.  In a truly realistic system, most combat would quickly change
to everyone seeking cover as quickly as possible and awaiting suitable
reinforcements or some means of escape.  The risk vs. reward doesn't
justify much else.

>>>
>From what I've seen, used in this fashion, the term "realistic" 
essentially means that the resolution system accurately simulates 
the various action-oriented TV show and films that have formed 
most gamers images of combat.
<<<

For some gamers, that is probably true.  For others of us, I think we just
want to keep our disbelief suspenders from snapping when someone gets hit
right in the Hit Points or the Endurance or whatever.  We'd rather
immediately know that Joe is pumping arterial blood from his arm or
something.  But even if you write a damage system with that kind of
granularity without making it as lethal as real life, you still have the
problem of detailed damage then requires an appropriately matching degree
of detail in the healing/medical system.  Which is usually b-o-r-i-n-g or
returns the game design to being unpleasantly lethal.  At least this is how
I've been pondering the design problem.  YMMV, and if it does, I'd be
interested to hear.

I forgot who to thank for introducing the phrase "snapping disbelief
suspenders".  Good one!  :->

--Laning
"Every man desires to live long; but no man would be old."  -Jonathan Swift
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:00:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:00:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>
References: <cb.1d239bc5.29960aca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020209180001.A27488@freeman.little-possums.net>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>    A missile turret that holds 231 missiles? _Egads_, but GURPS is just plain 
> _amazing_. I've had this apparent misconception that GURPS Trav was put 
> together using the same conventions as GOT (Good Ol Traveller); differing 
> mostly in the actual game mechanics...

Well, one difference is that a standard GURPS missile is only 150 kg
with a volume of 0.012 dtons, and does much less damage per missile.
Even so, a GURPS missile rack carries enough missiles to fire at its
maximum rate for 25 hours which seems a bit excessive.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 06:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:55:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
In-Reply-To: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>

Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
as good as Bonded Superdense.)

Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue.

--Laning
"People are stupid.  Think I'm kidding, don't ya?  I can prove it.  Look at
the way they drive."  -Gallagher
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 21:24:39 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net> typed:
>>>
What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:22:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:22:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <20020208092320.C22201@4dv.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEIOCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>; from gmgoffin@earthlink.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800
Message-ID: <3C658511.19061.323434@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 9:23, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:34:33AM -0800, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > 
> > To digress down memory lane a moment, some famous person (but I can't
> > remember who) said, "You should never shoot someone with a .25 caliber
> > pistol.  That will only make him angry, and he will come over and kill you."
> 
> The amusing thing is that ISTR a statistic to the effect that the
> deadliest caliber, in terms of deaths per year, is the .22.  Not
> because it is deadly in and of itself--it's almost laughably
> _not_--but because a) it's so common b) it's particularly common among
> young shooters and c) folks are not nearly so careful with it as they
> are with other calibers.  I'm not certain if I believe it[1], but it's
> interesting as either a fact or a falsehood constructed for some
> reason.

Another reason is that many people don't realise that they've been shot if the 
bullet came from a long way away (and .22LR bullets will travel over a mile), 
and assume the wound is a shallow puncture from a twig or the like. The they 
get ill and die days later from a punctured intestine, etc.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:27:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:27:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5 (longish)
In-Reply-To: <20020208092930.D22201@4dv.net>
References: <dc.12c3fe42.29942fa8@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500
Message-ID: <3C65863B.22094.36C2BA@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 9:29, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:29:44PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > "I was cleaning it and it went off..."
> 
> I personally believe that anyone who is found not to have unloaded a
> firearm before cleaning it should have all his weaponry confiscated
> for some suitable time.  It's just Not That Hard to do.  There's just
> no reason in the world not to check, double-check and triple-check.  I
> was taught in Scouts to treat _every_ gun as loaded, even if I'd just
> unloaded it myself.

I remember having a 'little chat' to someone in my barracks during basic 
because he couldn't comprehend this truth. He kept pointing his (throughly 
empty and inoperable) M16A1 at people and couldn't understand why the shooters 
amongst us got upset. I suspect he still didn't after our 'talk', but at least 
he didn't wave his rifle around like that any more.
 
> OTOH, I understand that `cleaning his pistol' is a coroner's nicety
> for `suicide.'
> 
> But then there's the moron who was flying through DFW over
> THanksgiving.  To demonstrate that his elk rifle was unloaded, he
> pulled the trigger.  Thereby putting a round through a window.
> 
> He should be put in the stocks for small children to throw tomatoes
> at.  And have his rifle confiscated for at least a year.  Idiot.

Here in NZ that'd cost you your firearms licence (thus forcing you to give away 
or sell your firearms), and there's no way you'd get it back for at least three 
(more like five) years. While your licence is revoked you aren't allowed so 
much as an air-rifle and can't touch a firearm, even under supervision, let 
alone fire one (which someone who's never had a licence may do - under 
supervision of a licenced person).

While I have issues with some of our firearm laws, this isn't one of them.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:50:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:50:06 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFIDKAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OE73PDVniSnRMWuLn5U00009212@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C658B7E.22738.4B4FEB@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 17:38, Andy Brick wrote:

> Howdy
> 
> Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
> 
> (1) Military Units
> 
> How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
> Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
> organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
> size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
> tanks would you get in armoured units ?

NZ (and British, though it may have changed):

Squad - doesn't exist, but we have a section instead. About 8-10 men, sometimes 
12, especially if you've plenty of warm bodies but are short on machineguns, 
grenade launchers and experienced NCOs and officers. Led by a Corporal or long 
serving Lance Corporal (very rarely by a Sergeant if you've somehow managed to 
get a surplus of these essential NCOs).

Platoon - 3 sections and a small HQ group - usually the Platoon OC (Officer 
Commanding, a 2nd or 1st Lieutenant), a Platoon Sergeant (a Sergeant unless 
short on NCO in which case a Corporal might fill this slot), a radio man 
("Platoon Sig") and a Medic. May also include support weapons teams detached 
from Company and Battalion level (in Britian I think there are a number of 
special weapons held at Platoon level, but here in NZ we don't have enough to 
do this).

Company - 3 Platoons plus a Command Section. CO is usually a Captain, senior 
NCO a WO1, once a Sergeant Major and still addressed as "Sarn't Major". Or 
Else.  

Battalion - 3 Rifle Companies, plus Support (consists of Sigs, Intel, admin, 
etc.) and Logistics (Transport and Catering, Logistics, maintenence, etc.) 
companies. Also assorted mortar platoons, SFMG platoon (generally split up into 
two machinegun detachments that are 'lent' to whoever Battalion HQ thinks needs 
them). Commanded by a Lt. Colonel, with a WO2 (assuming I've got my Warrant 
Officers right) as the RSM (Regimental Sergeant Major), who dresses as an 
officer and is addressed as "Sir". He's the _only_ NCO _ever_ addressed as 
"Sir", and the idea that we'd do like the US Marines and have recruits address 
an NCO as "Sir" while in training is considered both laughable and repugnant by 
our NCOs. We worked for our pay.
 
In armoured units each vehicle is equivilent to a section, though they're not 
called this. The platoon equivilent is a "Troop", and company is, IIRC, a 
"Squadron" and is either ten or 13-14 vehicles.

> The basic rule I've been told is 2 or more troopers = squad, 2 or more
> squads equal platoon, etc, with a maximum of five sub units in each unit as the
> command unit can't cope with more than 5 at a time. Is this right ?

Pretty much, though most armies seem to find threes are best from platoon to 
battalion level. After that the main elements (infantry battalions in a 
'infantry' regiment or division) tend to be in threes or fours, with lots of 
other troop types, usually in smaller units as well.

It's said that the position that's directly responsible for the most men in the 
entire army is the infantry section commander (a Corporal if he's lucky) as 
he's responsible for everything to do with himself and his men - 8-12. Everyone 
higher in position than him has underlings to deal with admin, and has 
subordinates to worry about the sub-units, so they only have to concern 
themselves with about four or five men/units. And platoon commanders wonder why 
they find it hard to impress their section commander and platoon sergeants (who 
were once section commanders).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 07:55:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:55:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 10:33, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> > Fire Team: 4 soldiers, based around a support weapon like a light machine gun.
> > 
> > 
> > Squad: 2-3 Fire Teams, led by a Sergeant
> So could be 8-12 men
>
> > Platoon: 3-4 Squads, lead by a Lieutenant
> Could be 24-48 men

Say 30.

> > Company: 3-4 Platoons, lead by a Captain
> Could be 72-192 men

Say 100.
 
> > Battalion: 4-5 Companies, lead by a Lieutenant Colonel
> Could be 288-960 men

500 to 1000, depending on type and how much support it has organic to it.

> What's the actual range in sizes of various units?  I assume it would be rare to
> have a brigade with more men than an army, but the formulations you give allow
> it...

This is something that deopends on the Army and the type of unit. Soviet Tank 
Regiments used to have 1300 officers and men, and IIRC some of the larger US 
Infantry Battalions had more personnel than this at one time.




-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:10:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <B889A605.240E5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16ZK3X-0005cX-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C65904F.16843.5E22F7@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty, it
> should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)

Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. Thus 
the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire should 
make luck checks to not get hit every so often.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:19:07 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Timothy Little wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
> less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
> firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)
> 
> Of course, I have zero personal knowledge of firefights and not a
> great deal of knowledge about real-life firearm incident statistics.
> I do know a lot about GURPS, though :)

Unfortunately GURPS does a lot of other things badly in this area. Damage in RL 
is not ablative (except bleeding - which GURPS also does badly), and most 
people don't drop to half movement long before they die, and nor do they hang 
on to conciousness for a couple of seconds then fall over (again long before 
they die) - they either fall over immediately (often not unconcious, but merely 
in shock or screaming) or they keep going until they die or the adrenaline 
wears off (long after the fight's over).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:08:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:08:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
References: <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C658FD7.26224.5C4CC4@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:39, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> 
> Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> 
> I'm not kidding.

But didn't you grow yourself a new one?


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:08:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:08:39 +1300
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C658FD7.6531.5C4CB6@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:16, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   >>
>   Re, your comments below.
> 
>   Typically, in peacetime, most 'real' military units
> will be manned at approx. 70-80% of their max TO[Table
> of Organization].
> 
>   Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
> apply:
> 
>   Fire Team:   4 men
>   Squad:      12 men

Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including 
those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:50:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 08:50:39 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA
Message-ID: <F54Q873Tlm70rM3Tbhy00012b7e@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  
(Almost as good as Bonded Superdense.)"


     "Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as 
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue."


Sir,

    British Dental Association.
    It's from a Monty Python skit featuring "Lemming of the BDA"; a crime 
fighting dentist with his own theme song.

     Lemming!
     Lemming!
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee,
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee,
     Lemming of the Bee-Dee-Aye!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, Dept. of Obscure Cultural References


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 08:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:49:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202091042160.12616-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Hey, what about Phoenix Command? 

And, yes, the two times I have played it (as a tactical scenario, not in a
role-playing game) it has seemed to be the best system for rpgs, too. If
one does want a combat system, that is, I have been drifting towards very
free-form rpgs lately.

(Sadly the www pages of Charlie ei surffaa (Charlie doesn't surf, a
Vietnam game) campaign, played in many Finnish RPG Cons, are in Finnish.

Kollaa kest (Kollaa will hold) pbem scenario has web pages, 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/ This is about the Finnish Winter
War, in short scenarios.

The people behind this have held also Kollaa Kest in Ropecon. It was
very fun, although a little slow, even with all the laptops..)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 00:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:30:52 -0000
Subject: [TML] 40 days to go
Message-ID: <000c01c1b14e$869d3660$d169893e@fabian>

Heads up for those who are interested.

In 40 days time, I fly to Moscow, stop for 2 days, then fly on to Tokyo.

I will be working in Hamamatsu, Japan.

Replies privately or on the chat list please.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:14:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOEEFMCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Snead wrote :-
> The statistics I've read essentially look like 
> people get hit several times by bullets that don't do much
> (at the time) and then they get hit in the head, heart,
> or some similarly vital area and then fall down and die
> in short order.

That's a fair analysis.
Superficial wounds don't do very much ; depending on the
region affected, blood loss may be quite slow.

Decompensated hypovolaemic shock takes time to develop (minutes).
Overwhelming massive damage is rare (head wounds, direct injury
to heart, great vessels or liver).

> OTOH, combat with shotguns or high powered rifles would produce
> far different results wrt lethality.

The last time I surveyed the trauma literature, fatal injuries
about 40% of the time with truncal hits ; head wounds are
essentially non-survivable (95+% fatal).

I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
systems.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:30:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:30:44 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013203829.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHGEPLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> Nah, you've got it backwards.  Larger meson guns in High Guard
> are basically
> guaranteed kills on anything they hit, and the weapons in GT are
> nowhere near
> that lethal.

If I remember that right, the larger Meson guns of High Guard have a yield
of about 10ktons. The GURPS ones are weaker by about a factor of 100 or
1000.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 02:34:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C65904F.16843.5E22F7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B88A3B51.242E2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/9/02 12:10 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:57, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
>> Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per casualty,
>> it
>> should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
> 
> Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. Thus
> the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire should
> make luck checks to not get hit every so often.
> 

As someone once said: I'm not worried about the bullet with my name on it.
I'm worried about the million that say "to whom it may concern."

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:36:04 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEPECEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHKEPLCEAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> 
> IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion 

Sorry, it was late. I meant: The worst features of Interlock and Hero...

regards,
Stephan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 09:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:56:25 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <019401c1b156$098e2960$d169893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>


> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

otoh, 'failure to secure a licensed weapon' may be a serious crime on the
world.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:04 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

It's not that simple.

Suppose the police claim the PC's forced the victim to hold the
gun to his own head while they shot him. After all, there will be
evidwence of the victim being grabbed by the wrist.

Details about the wound would be no different if the gun was held
against the victim's head by the PC, it's only the evidence of
the gun being in the victim's hand that would suggest suicide.

Heck, the PC could even get residue on his own hand from holding
the "victim's and whie he fired.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:04 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEIHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :

> And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.

I still think crossbows are a much better weapon than firearms.

Better penetration, effectively silent, and much easier to make
"special" ammunition for.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:02:05 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <20020208120356.A22670@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :

> Actually, the Common Wisdom hereabouts is that it's
> better to kill than to maim.  If someone's dead, he
> cannot sue.

Or claim that the use of the firearm in self-defence was
unjustified, leading not just to a civil suit, but criminal
charges from the police

> Yes, there've beeninstances where burglars have sued
> those who shot them in self-defense.  I'm not certain
> if any have won, but there it is.

There have been many cases where people who usd weapons in self
defence have been convicted of various crimes by the police
afterwards.

> Yes, crazy, I know.

Not neccesarily. The guy who went onto the New York transit
system armed and looking to be attacked should have been locked
up. I can't remember if he actually was or not.

> There's also the matter that much crime is drug-related.
> To stop someone on PCP or similar drugs (or even alcohol) is
> not a matter of_hurting_ him by throwing small things at him;

Very little crime, even drug-related crime, is actually carried
out by criminals who are high at the time. That which is, is
usually very messy and spectacular, and the criminals usualy die
vor are capture very quickly.

> it's a matter of _stopping_ him by shutting down his
> central nervous system or destroying a major organ
> like a heart or lung.  Which, incidentally, means that
> he dies.

If you want avoid killing someone, but still want to stop them,
destroy their knees or feet. If you have a bigger weapon, destroy
their hip.

The problem, of course, is that this requires greater precision
than a torso hit.
Though even a torso hit requires precision if you want it to hit
somewhere where it will actually stop someone.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 10:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:52:46 -0000
Subject: [TML] Far Horizons ship design system
Message-ID: <01f001c1b159$4cff73e0$d169893e@fabian>

http://www.srv.net/~ram/

Has a link to a computer moderated pbm called far horizons. Those
interested in a basic ship design system might want to have a look at it.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 11:14:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:14:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Actually, GURPS is pretty good at modelling a 10% hit rate at 20 ft or
> less, with pistol rounds that usually don't disable or kill during the
> firefight unless they hit a vital area.  :)

How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in 
firearms hits on a 14, which is *way* better than 10% even figuring 
in lots of modifiers.  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

GURPS is fun, but realistic it's not (in a vast number of ways).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:10:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEIHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:02, Frank Pitt wrote:

> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> 
> > And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> > the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.
> 
> I still think crossbows are a much better weapon than firearms.
> 
> Better penetration,

Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?

> effectively silent,

I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never heard a thing. :)

> and much easier to make "special" ammunition for.

True.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:09:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:09:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
References: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C65118A.49E1FE6D@mindspring.com>

My wife and her sisters went door to door collecting money for the BDA while in
high school. (Beer Drinkers of America) Perhaps Beer Drinkers of Aramis in the
57th

Laning wrote:

> Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
> as good as Bonded Superdense.)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:10:53 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C65C89D.8851.13A1987@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 3:14, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:


> How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in 
> firearms hits on a 14, which is *way* better than 10% even figuring 
> in lots of modifiers.  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

Now knock off a few points for range and target movement, and a few more for 
lighting, and yet more for the target being on cover. By now the effective 
level is probably under the gun's snap shot level, so knock another 4 points 
off. By now we're probably looking at a hit chance that's somewhere between 
'very little' and 'bugger all'. At least that's how it works IME. It struck me 
the first time I played GURPS in a game with guns just how often it was more 
effective to run up to someone with a bat and thump them than it was to try 
shooting them. Whether that reflects RL I don't know, but it didn't reflect the 
game reality that was supposed to exist in that campaign.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:20:29 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <13c.91e3c80.29966e0d@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 23:19:24 GMT Standard Time, sneadj@mindspring.com 
writes:


> > A friend and fellow gamer got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal
> > and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for
> > 1993-1998.  We decided to make a hit location chart using the
> > information it contained.  In assault cases of gunshot wounds the
> > following hit locations were given:
> > 
> > Report Results
> > Head / Neck - 14%
> > Arm / Hand - 13%
> > Leg / Foot - 33%
> > Upper Trunk - 21%
> > Lower Trunk - 16%
> > Not Specified - 3%  (ouch! a shot to my not specified)
> > 
> > Hit Location Table (d12)
> > 1:        Head
> > 2:         Right Arm
> > 3:         Left Arm
> > 4-6:         Chest
> > 7:         Abdomen
> > 8:         Groin
> > 9-10:     Left Leg
> > 11-12:     Right Leg
> > 
> > Note: I made head harder and chest easier to hit in the conversion.  I
> > figured most "aimed" shots were probably for the head so it would get
> > hit more often and this is supposed to be random.  Plus, it is easier
> > to keep the PCs alive by not hitting them there.
> 
> Alternately, for greater accuracy and greater ease, use a D6:
> 
> 1: Head
> 2 Arm (the roll 1-3 right, 4-6 left)
> 3-4 Body (chest and abdomen)
> 5 Left leg
> 6 Right leg
> 
> Of course, for even greater accuracy, the to hit rolls for standard 
> urban firefights should be something on the order of:
> 
> If your character has Gun combat of 1+, every round, roll 1d6, on a 
> 1 you hit, on any other number you miss, skill does not affect this 
> roll. This accurately reflects FBI shooting statistics.
> 
> I don't know that data, but I'm guessing the only other rule needed 
> is that if your character does not have Gun Combat skill, then roll 
> 1D12, you only hit on a 1.     
> 
> However, for you should use normal to hit rules for target shooting, 
> sniping and similar types of combat where the character has time 
> to aim carefully.
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> 

Another option is to create a "Close Quarter Battle" skill that allows 
characters a higher to hit chance in these situations.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:32:07 GMT
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208101443.009fe840@mindspring.com> <3C658CCD.22670.506E3B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3c661334.2054916@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> > Battalion: 

>500 to 1000, depending on type and how much support it has organic to it.

"Eight 'undred fightin' Englishmen, the Colonel, and the Band" ?

;-)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:26:22 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>
References: <E16ZNjO-0006cL-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> <20020209155755.D26480@freeman.little-possums.net> <3C65924B.23743.65E078@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020209232622.A27984@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Unfortunately GURPS does a lot of other things badly in this area.

No argument *at all* here.  I was specifically referrign to exactly
the criteria mentioned and no more for very good reason :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:32:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:32:28 EST
Subject: [TML] Sheol Biochemistry (alien race)
Message-ID: <8a.13c37aaf.299670dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/02/02 23:59:32 GMT Standard Time, jimv@uia.net writes:


> Hi all... been ghosting for awhile. Finally decided I'd hit
> the biochemists on list w/ a question. GT:Alien Races 1 covers
> a race known as the Sheol, a race of giant Gas Giant floaters
> resembling huge tentacled blimps, also known as the squid
> mothers. On p128, Pulver writes: "Squid mothers can internally
> combine organic molecules to contruct living organisms or
> complex chemical compounds" ... "Sheol biotechnology can
> produce everything from macroscopic artificial life to living
> preprogrammed machinery."
> 
> It's a pretty neat idea. My question is, how plausible is it?
> Are there good reasons for or against an alien race of this
> sort having this innate ability?
> 
> I don't want to influence the jury, so I won't say anything
> more, but for those of you who would try to run Traveller as
> a hard science campaign, how would you handle this race?
> Keep them as is? Degrade their abilities? Toss them out?
> 
> Speak o' wise ones... -Jim
> 

There is no physical reason that the Sheol should not be able to do this.

The only real question is how the Sheol developed this ability - what is its 
evolutionary advantage? (Ignore what follows if the race has been geneered, I 
don't own the book in question so don't know the details) 

The *conscious* control of molecular level construction requires tremendous 
background processes which would have to have evolved at some point along the 
way. It could be that they originally evolved to do something else, such as 
make little Sheols.*

So basically, if there's a good enough reason for the Sheol to have developed 
this skill through evolution it's not a problem. If you can't think of a good 
enough reason then something has to change or, if you want to keep them as 
they are, it's time to invoke Grandfather.

Iaa Grandfather fthagnhr, or something... 

Charles

*But conscious control over the traits passed on to offspring is unlikely, 
and potentially dangerous from an evolutionary point of view.

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:49:19 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <4d.18e87915.299674cf@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/02/02 10:24:44 GMT Standard Time, 
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:

SNIP
> The last time I surveyed the trauma literature, fatal injuries
> about 40% of the time with truncal hits ; head wounds are
> essentially non-survivable (95+% fatal).
> 
> I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
> systems.
> 
> 
> Robert O'Connor
> medico, gamer  
> 

A quick look at the data for the US for 1994 - 1999 shows an overall 
mortality rate for gun shot wounds of 16.47%, compared to 2.32% for stabbings 
and 1.06% for "fights".

Unfortunately it doesn't breakdown by body area, perhaps because of multiple 
trauma.

Out of interest GSWs have the highest mortality rate of all forms of 
traumatic injury.

I also agree about the nature of RPG combat systems. There was also the 
problem of overestimating the effect of energy transfer* in those systems 
that claimed to be realistic, which often made them unrealistically lethal.

Charles

*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 12:40:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:40:56 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com> <E16ZVS2-0003eh-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020209234056.B27984@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> How so?  A low-average PC (12 DEX, 12 IQ) with 2 points in firearms
> hits on a 14,

At say 12 ft range, they get -3 due to range.  If the target is
running, another -1 to -3.  If there are any intervening obstacles, -1
to -5.  If the firer is walking, another -1.  If the lighting isn't
perfect, -1 to -6.  If they don't take at least 2 seconds (one to aim,
one to shoot), another -4 for snap shot penalty.


> which is *way* better than 10% even figuring in lots of modifiers.

As I said in another post, my median modifier set in GURPS games was
about -8 *before* applying recoil, psychological or snap shot
penalties.  That alone is enough to put a skill-14 shooter (already
above average) at 10% chance to hit.

For a 14 to hit in GURPS, you'd have to have in mind a situation where
the person being shot at is standing relatively motionless in clear
unobstructed sight with good light 2 yards away, while you yourself
are also standing still in a reasonable firing stance on good ground
in a calm frame of mind.  Doesn't sound anything like a typical
firearm incident report to me.

If anything, GURPS makes it even *harder* to hit than is realistic.


>  Most GURPS PCs I've seen hit on a 15-17.

On a firing range, sure.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:24:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   I know this is going to sound odd, but has anyone really *looked* at the 
TRIN system from old data of the Spinward Marches and compared it with the 
new GURPS BEHIND THE CLAW?  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a 
M0 main sequence star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC 
indicates that it is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that 
there is a planet located further inwards towards the sun.  M class stars, 
if they have any habitable planets, usually have to be in the first 
orbit.  Looking at SCOUTS this is the case,  looking at GURPS FIRST IN, 
this is the case.  I know I am getting cranky after working a 16+ hour 
shift and all - but the more I look at the data in the spinward marches, 
the more I am tempted to scrap it entirely and build a fresh spinward 
marches...   <gaaahhhhhhhh>.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:40:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:40:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: The Space Pirates Life for Me
Message-ID: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED4@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Is there a "Dummies Guide to being a Space Pirate in the Imperium"
anywhere
>in the canon?

"The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main" is an article in an early JTAS
that may help you think about this problem.  Of course the TML archives are
full of discussion about the subject, as it is one of our recurring flame
war subjects.

--Glenn
<

Thank you very much! This is something I can look up! #19 if I'm not
mistaken. 

Maybe I should rephrase the question as little less wiseacre!

I'm trying to start a campaign based on "The Traveller Adventure". This is
an awesome adventure in most ways but......it starts with a a planetary
landing and if your lucky a New Years party!

So I thought it would more fun to start the adventure with a bang! A pirate
attack by the very Vargr pirates whose history is going to be so important
to the rest of the story would be a much more exciting "Teaser" for the
adventure. 

But then I realized I know absolutely nothing about how Vargr pirates
attack. How do you forceably board another ship? At what range do your
sensors detect that this is not a 400 ton merchant ship? How long do they
take to board? What do they do after they board? Rip out your stereo and
VCRs? Do they want your computer? Your cargo? Your robots? 

I kind of thought there might be some canon info! Thnks!

>>>>My work isn't canon, but I've worked out some ideas for how
>>>>a space pirate ship might function...two essays, at the top
>>>>of my Traveller web page.
>>>>http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm

Well, that's okay, it doesn't *have* to be canon - I just thought there
would be!
Thanks!

Looks like cool stuff! Yes - this is perfect - thank you!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 16:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED5@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with Hero
> (i.e. Champions).

And meshed rather poorly.<

I'm interested in why you think so. Everyone who doesn't like FUZION seems
to have a different reason. 

The most common responses I've heard are 

1. "Why didn't they just add superpowers to Interlock and then it would be
perfect!" Which I think is really a bit unfair. Even without the
superpowers, Interlock did get better in alot of ways. 

2. "Why did they break a wonderful system like HERO by adding that crappy
Cyberpunk stuff." Which I think is simply insane. 

Personally, I think the "mesh" worked perfectly well, but all they did to
the Champions Powers was divide the numbers by 5 so that 10 points became 2
points. That really did make the Champions powers any more palatable. I
personally think they should have used the Dream Park super powers instead.

>>>>IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion
(imagine you

Don't you mean the "worst features of both Interlock and HERO?"

I thought Interlock actually got improved - at least there is no BODY score
and no character classes! 

What are the 'worst' features that you think was left in from Interlock? 

JMO
Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:03:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:03:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
References: <200202090428.g194SaT01672@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003401c1b18b$ab2b59c0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>

> >  I just want some opinions here. Traveller as a game
> >has gone through several incarnations and survived as
> >a game where others have died. I'd like to know why
> >people keep playing it and keep getting turned on to
> >it? Is it the base rules that exist in every version?
> >Is it the common and continually growing background?
> >What is it in you opinion?
>
Whether you like the changes MT and TNE wrought on the OTU, the background
is not only rich but dynamic.  Other games have tried to do this but failed
(DnD's World of Greyhak IMO, the changes they made are things that no
character could ever do under the rules).  In Traveller it was always
possible for characters to be movers and shakers at any level.

Plus Loren is good at answering questions and providing insights into the
metagame aspects of Traveller : )


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:50:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:50:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <20020209.125050.-317141.2.Knightsky@juno.com>



On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:24:45 -0800 (PST) Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
> knightsky@juno.com writes:
> > > >Say like the FUZION System?
> > > 
> > > I can't help you there, since I've never heard of it.  What's 
> that 
> > > system like?
> > 
> > FUZION is essentially Interlock (i.e. Cyperpunk 2020) meshed with 
> Hero
> > (i.e. Champions).
> 
> And meshed rather poorly.

For the curious, you can find out pretty much all you want about FUZION
at http://www.meta-earth.com/fuzion/core.html.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 18:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:11:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <3C658FD7.26224.5C4CC4@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208153837.009f4800@mindspring.com>
 <fc.136d84fd.29957a75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020209101052.009ff1a0@mindspring.com>

At 09:08 PM 2/9/02 +1300, you wrote:
>On 8 Feb 2002, at 15:39, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > At 02:01 PM 2/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > >Try the spleen or pancreas, higher up the body and nasty if hit.
> >
> > Won't work on me.  I gave up my spleen to aid the Zionists.
> >
> > I'm not kidding.
>
>But didn't you grow yourself a new one?

Yeah, it's coming along nicely.  Drives my doctor nuts.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry           gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"That's just 'mostly dead.'  What we are concerned
with here is 'Pining for the Fjords' dead."
                                     - Mark Urbin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 18:32:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:32:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: The Imperial Marines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202090258310.24518-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <200202090134.g191YkC29993@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020209101521.009feac0@mindspring.com>

At 03:09 AM 2/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
>
> >>So does that mean that the 'armies available for off-world activities' of
> >>the article in JTAS10 are equivalent to GF's Unified Armies or not?
> >
> >No.  The units avalible for off-world duties are part of the planetary
> >defense force.
>
>So Mora's army isn't set up or organized for off-planet movement but still
>has a number of troops available for off-world activities?

Exactly.  The units if the PDF are optimized to defend the homeworld.  If 
they need to travel off-planet, it will involve all sorts of special issue, 
special training, and special arraignments.

As an example, when I was stationed in Georgia with the 197th Infantry 
Brigade (Separate) (Mechanized), we were part of Reforger 85.  The 197th 
was not adequately equipped for winter on the North German plains!  We had 
to draw cold weather gear (which had to shipped to us from Ft. Drum, almost 
700 miles away) and take classes in cold weather survival and vehicle 
operation and maintenance in cold-weather situations.  That took a few 
weeks.  In this example, the USMC stands in for the Imperial Army... they 
spend a great deal of time training in many different climates and 
situations, and tend to have the gear on hand for deployment.  Us doggies 
needed more time.

So, in Mora Subsector, you will have the UA which is practised at getting 
vehicles loaded onto transports, and have fought on different worlds, and 
the Mora PDF which will need a little more hand-holding.


> >The Unified Army will be a mixture of peoples from all the worlds of the
> >subsector. They are expected to be ready at all times for duty on any world.
> >They are Imperial troops.  "Colonial" troops are discussed on page 16 of GF.
>
>But colonial forces ARE Imperial forces. Well, colonial _squadrons_ are
>subsector forces anyway. I suppose that strictly speaking we have no proof
>that the word isn't used differently about troops. It seems rather odd,
>though. Only, if that is the case, where are the subsector troops in FFW?
>We have a smattering of marines, 16 named colonial troops and 14 numbered
>colonial troops. Where are the Unified Armies?

Hans, all those black on red counters are the Unified Armies.  Yes, it is a 
new name and concept, but I found *nothing* detailing the operation and 
chains of command for the Imperial Military while writing the book!  I had 
to make things up.  That's why they call it creative writing after all..

The white on red counters are the colonial troops.  These are units drawn 
from PDFs in the subsectors off the map.  Now, while 5FW is a great game, 
it fails in being an accurate reflection of what the actual troop levels 
would be.  There should be *hundreds* of division-level units 
available.  It also fails in that you can't detach cruiser squadrons to go 
raiding without an bloody admiral leading them.  It also fails to discuss 
logistics, morale, planetary conditions, the possibility of local defense 
factors going to ground, or the value of high population worlds.  In other 
words, it is an amusing game but worthless in any real examination of the 
Fifth Frontier War.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 19:55:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:55:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>


>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.

I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in Traveller:2300, we had 
3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of the British Army. See 
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm (although 2300, 
it would be great to adapt to Traveller).

Bryn


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:00:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:00:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <4d.18e87915.299674cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>


There seems to be some excellent commentary on GURPS gunshot damage not
being realistic.  This topic has probably come up before, but how should we
change it to work better in Traveller?

If we break down hits and damge damage by:

1) Hits to vital areas.  Head, heart, and other organs.  Very easy to kill a
character in GURPS, unless they have super high HTs.

2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?  I always figured that your
torso was packed with organs.  They always talk about nasty hits to the lung
and those take up most of your chest...

3) Hits to limbs.  Should a rifle hit to the arm make that arm useless or
simply painful?  A shot through the thigh does what to your ability to leap
tall buildings in a single bound?

4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a cricitcal success.
How well does clotting stop non-major artery hits anyway?

5) Unconsciousness and Death.  People seem to complain that it is too easy
to knock a character uncon. and not kill them compared to RL.  The defense
of this idea is that nobody wants to play a PC that dies and getting knocked
out of the fight is kinder but still bad for the PCs.  I can accept this,
but what should change to make it more like RL?



Assume a PC with a HT of 12.  That gives them 12 hits.

6) With the blowthrough rule, a gunshot to the torso has 0% chance of
killing unless they hit the vitials.  They do have a good chance of falling
uncon. Is this realistic? If not, how should it be replaced?

7) At -12 HT, they start making death rolls.  It can take a LONG time w/o
medical help before this happens.  Is this reasonable?

8) Finally with all this going on, how do we think lasers will change
things?  If anything, they should make it even harder to kill.  They do not
produce very large trauma areas (more like a .22 damage) and there would be
little blood loss.  If anything they sound like very unfatal penetration
weapons and may be better used to sweep across a person more like a "ranged
sword" effect.


Justin


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 19:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:58:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <000701c1b11a$33042420$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020209195833.81071.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>


--- n2sami <n2sami@attbi.com> wrote:
> Traveller is great 'cause it is wide open.
> 
 Define 'wide open', please. I'm not not exactly sure
what you mean and don't want to misinterpret.

Whopper

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:39:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:39:48 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Military organizations
Message-ID: <165.82a4fc9.2996e314@aol.com>

> Some questions for the list, probably done before, but here goes -
>  
>  (1) Military Units
>  
>  How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>  Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
>  organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
>  size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
>  tanks would you get in armoured units ?

GDW covered this in the Gulf War Factbook, as well as Striker (both editions) 
and Mercenary. British name their stuff slightly differently than we Yanks, 
and every nation and army has its own little quirks (sometimes even within an 
army). Also changes over time, and as a unit takes casualties.

I'm sure you have received hundreds of answers (reading this a little late), 
so I won't clutter the list with mine.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:36:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:36:18 -0000
Subject: [TML] The Imperial Marines Strike Again
In-Reply-To: <135.911f7b6.29957a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEFFCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of CHam628781@aol.com
> Sent: 08 February 2002 19:01
>
> In a message dated 07/02/02 23:23:04 GMT Standard Time,
> mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>
> > Laning speaks of the ease with which the 3I military might control
> > communications & reporting...
> >
> > ... happens in the real world too. In 1982 when the UK and
> Argentina had a
> > vigorous debate about who owns the Falklands/Malvinas, the UK
> forces were
> > outwardly very friendly. Journalists were accommodated on Royal Navy
> > vessels, and their stories and pictures were transmitted home for them,
> > free of charge... or at least, those that the Navy were happy
> about. Other
> > stuff just, um, got lost.
> >
>
> <possible urban legend>
> Apart from the time that the reporters told the British public that the
> Argentinians were fusing their bombs too long. Coincidentally the
> Argentianians appeared a short time later with shorter fuses on
> their bombs.
> </possible urban legend>
>
> Charles
>
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
>
Not sure of that one, but another incident is definetely real.  As the
troops were heading in to conduct the first landing they (commanders at
least) the BBC announce their landing was about to happen, complete with
approximate location.  Several authoritive sources agree on this Virtually
every documentary of the war, most books written by commanders and Margaret
Thatchers own biography)

Worst thing is this was an Officail statement from the Prime minister's
office.  Even the Argentinian Commander heard the report but could not get
the message to his troops in the area!!

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I don't know about this.  Regular smuggling I could handle, but I don't
think I'm ready to be a Bible salesman - www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 2nd Jan
2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:42:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:42:51  0000
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <PEDGAKOKKDOOFBAA@angelfire.com>

Well, there's a question you've posed and no mistaking.

I'm running Mt for a whole bunch of people, many of whom have never played Traveller before. Some have even expressed their desore to never play it (I sold them by telling them I was running Elite). But I've got some feedback from them now.

One of the things they've been taken with is the chargen system. They really liked the fact that, by the time they had to worry about personality and the like, they'd already got some idea of what the character was like. They liked the idea that these are people with a history and that not everyone has the same. They like the fact that people from different places have a different take on things.

The second thing they noticed was the ruleset. When run by a GM who knows what they're doing both CT and MT are very slick systems and are responsive to GM tinkering (I have a couple of house rules surrounding J-o-T skill and the like). They appreciate the fact that I can just give them a roll to make and they don't have to worry about whether any other factors are applicable, whether any of their feats/abilities/disiplines/powers or whatever other systems call them are relevant.

I'm not sure "like" is the right word for how they view Traveller combat, but they certainly appreciate it. The deadliness is soomethignI've always liked about the system, ever since my first experience of Traveller (about seven years ago) when my GM said "bigger guns don't make you any harder, they just make you a target for harder opponents". This idea of deadliness in combat leads me nicely onto the real seller for Traveller as far as I'm concerned.

The setting is what does it for me. Much of what makes Traveller special is tied directly into the ruleset. The planetary data, the jump duration, the weapons and all that. They are what makes any game, regardless of background, "feel" like Traveller.
On top of that you have a wealth of backround material to play with. I personally like the Rebellion and the lead up to it. Some people don't so they play in a different era. The thing that ties them together is that there's a cohenrent history and because people have played all through it there's so much quality work out there you can't really go wrong.

The last two points were brought home to me before I started to run this latest campaign and an old friend who's not pplayed Traveller for about half a decade came round to borrow a book. Six hours later my flatmate was still watching in stunned horror as we discussed the sociopolitical climate of the Spinward Marches and the effects of Norris on the fifth frontier war. 

I don't know what "makes Traveller Great" as such but I do know that very few people who've played it would fail to recognis the Traveller feel, and that's what sets it apart from other sci fi rpgs.

Sorry to go on so long.

Oh and there's the huge active virtual community constantly keeping the setting fresh for GMs.
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:00:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <188.3175740.2996e7ee@aol.com>

Robert O'Connor says:
> I agree with the comment about the 'cinematic' nature of RPG combat
>  systems.

Yep. Players want it to be like in the movies. Even the vets we talked to 
weren't much interested in absolute simulation of combat. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 20:57:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:57:27 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <a9.22b10c1c.2996e737@aol.com>

>  > Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per 
casualty,
>  it
>  > should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
>  
>  Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit anyone. 
> Thus 
>  the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the zome of fire 
should 
>  make luck checks to not get hit every so often.

We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, and it 
proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost lynched us. We 
dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for innovation in game 
design . . . :  )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:01:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:01:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] What is Wide-Open [long] for Whopper
In-Reply-To: <20020209195833.81071.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1b1ad$02919b40$2f7de40c@loki>

About as close as you can nail me down is found below. I leave your
interpretation as 'wide-open' as you like but no narrower that I meant.

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

wide-open
     adj 1: open wide; "left the doors wide-open"
     2: lax in enforcing laws; "an open town" [syn: open, lawless]

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

wide
     adj 1: having great (or a certain) extent from one side to the
            other; "wide roads"; "a wide necktie"; "wide margins";
            "three feet wide"; "a river two miles broad"; "broad
            shoulders"; "a broad river" [syn: broad] [ant: narrow]
     2: broad in scope or content; "across-the-board pay increases";
        "an all-embracing definition"; "blanket sanctions against
        human-rights violators"; "an invention with broad
        applications"; "a panoptic study of Soviet nationality"-
        T.G.Winner; "granted him wide powers" [syn: across-the-board,
         all-embracing, all-encompassing, all-inclusive, blanket(a),
         broad, encompassing, panoptic]
     3: (used of eyes) fully open or extended; "listened in
        round-eyed wonder"; "stared with wide eyes" [syn: round-eyed]
     4: very large in expanse or scope; "a broad lawn"; "the wide
        plains"; "a spacious view"; "spacious skies" [syn: broad,
         spacious]
     5: great in degree; "won by a wide margin" [ant: narrow]
     6: great in range or scope; "an extended vocabulary"; "surgeons
        with extended experience"; "extensive examples of picture
        writing"; "suffered extensive damage"; "a wide selection"
        [syn: extended, extensive]
     7: having ample fabric; "the current taste for wide trousers";
        "a full skirt" [syn: wide-cut, full]
     8: not on target; "the kick was wide"; "the arrow was wide of
        the mark"; "a claim that was wide of the truth" [syn: wide
        of the mark]
     adv 1: with or by a broad space; "stand with legs wide apart"; "ran
            wide around left end"
     2: to the fullest extent possible; "open your eyes wide"; "with
        the throttle wide open"
     3: far from the intended target; "the arrow went wide of the
        mark"; "a bullet went astray and killed a bystander" [syn:
         astray]
     4: to or over a great extent or range; far; "wandered wide
        through many lands"; "he traveled widely" [syn: widely]

>From WordNet (r) 1.6[wn]:

open
     adj 1: affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or
            closed; "an open door"; "they left the door open"
            [syn: unfastened] [ant: shut]
     2: affording free passage or access; "open drains"; "the road
        is open to traffic"; "open ranks" [ant: closed]
     3: with no protection or shield; "the exposed northeast
        frontier"; "open to the weather"; "an open wound" [syn: exposed]
     4: open to or in view of all; "an open protest"; "an open
        letter to the editor"
     5: used of mouth or eyes; "keep your eyes open"; "his mouth
        slightly opened" [syn: opened] [ant: closed]
     6: not having been filled; "the job is still open"
     7: accessible to all; "open season"; "an open economy"
     8: not defended or capable of being defended; "an open city";
        "open to attack" [syn: assailable, undefendable, undefended]
     9: (of textures) full of small openings or gaps; "an open
        texture"; "a loose weave" [syn: loose]
     10: having no protecting cover or enclosure; "an open boat"; "an
         open fire"; "open sports cars"
     11: opened out; "an open newspaper"
     12: (mathematics) of a set; containing points whose neighborhood
         consists of other points of the same set, or being the
         complement of an open set; of an interval; containing
         neither of its end points [ant: closed]
     13: not brought to a conclusion; subject to further thought; "an
         open question"; "our position on this bill is still
         undecided"; "our lawsuit is still undetermined" [syn:
undecided,
          undetermined, unresolved]
     14: not sealed or having been unsealed; "the letter was already
         open"; "the opened package lay on the table" [syn: opened]
     15: without undue constriction as from e.g. tenseness or
         inhibition; "the clarity and resonance of an open tone";
         "her natural and open response"
     16: relatively empty of and unobstructed by fences or hedges or
         headlands or shoals; "in open country"; "the open
         countryside"; "open waters"; "on the open seas"
     17: open and observable; not secret or hidden; "an overt lie";
         "overt hostility"; "overt intelligence gathering" [syn: overt]
         [ant: covert]
     18: (music) used of string or hole or pipe of instruments [syn:
         unstopped] [ant: stopped]
     19: not requiring union membership; "an open shop employs
         nonunion workers" [syn: open(a)]
     20: not secret; "open plans"; "an open ballot"
     21: without any attempt at concealment; completely obvious;
         "open disregard of the law"; "open family strife"; "open
         hostility"; "a blatant appeal to vanity"; "a blazing
         indiscretion" [syn: blatant, blazing, conspicuous]
     22: affording free passage or view; "a clear view"; "a clear
         path to victory"; "a free lane" [syn: clear, free]
     23: lax in enforcing laws; "an open town" [syn: wide-open, lawless]
     24: openly straightforward and direct without reserve or
         secretiveness; "his candid eyes"; "an open and trusting
         nature" [syn: candid]
     25: sincere and free of reserve in expression; "Please be open
         with me"
     26: receptive to new ideas; "an open mind"; "open to new ideas"
     27: ready for business; "the stores are open"
     n 1: a clear or unobstructed space or expanse of land or water:
          "finally broke out of the forest into the open" [syn: clear]
     2: where the air is unconfined; "he wanted to get out in the
        air a little"; "the concert was held in the open air";
        "camping in the open" [syn: outdoors, out-of-doors, air,
         open air]
     3: a tournament in which both professionals and amateurs may
        play
     4: information that has become public; "all the reports were
        out in the open"; "the facts had been brought to the
        surface" [syn: surface]
     v 1: cause to open or to become open; "Mary opened the car door"
          [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     2: start to operate or function or cause to start operating or
        functioning; "open a business" [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     3: become open; "The door opened" [syn: open up] [ant: close]
     4: begin or set in action, of meetings, speeches, recitals,
        etc.; "He opened the meeting with a long speech" [ant: close]
     5: spread out or open from a folded state; "open the map" [syn:
         unfold, spread, spread out] [ant: fold]
     6: make available, as of an opportunity; "This opens up new
        possibilities" [syn: open up]
     7: become available; "an opportunity opened up" [syn: open up]
     8: have an opening or passage or outlet; "The bedrooms open
        into the hall"
     9: make the opening move, in chess; "Kasparov opened with a
        standard opening"
     10: afford access to; "the door opens to the patio"; "The French
         doors give onto a terrace" [syn: afford, give]
     11: display the contents of a file or start an application [ant:
          close]


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:35:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:35:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>



Bryn Monnery wrote:
> 
> >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
> >team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
> >those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.

According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:53:06 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200202091140_MC3-F13B-ED5@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEAACFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> I'm interested in why you think so. Everyone who doesn't like FUZION seems
> to have a different reason.
>
> The most common responses I've heard are
>
> 1. "Why didn't they just add superpowers to Interlock and then it would be
> perfect!" Which I think is really a bit unfair. Even without the
> superpowers, Interlock did get better in alot of ways.
>
I think you can count me in here. I really liked the way Interlock worked. I
didn't care much for Hero but in itself it was a quite workable Supers
system.

What bothers me is that they didn't took Interlock and Hero and designed a
good, new system based on these two but bolted together two systems that -
while being compatible in some parts - intended to model two entirely
different "realities" and power levels. Fuzion not only _is_ a mesh, but it
looks and feels like one too - bad game design (do you remember the early
editions were they basically said: "for skill rolls, take 1d10 or 2d6 -
whatever"?)

>
> >>>>IMO it combines the worst features of both Interlock and Fuzion
> (imagine you
>
> Don't you mean the "worst features of both Interlock and HERO?"
>
yeah, sorry, it was late ;-)

> I thought Interlock actually got improved - at least there is no
> BODY score
> and no character classes!
>
O.k., the character classes were crap - but not more so than the ones
devised for T20. And the Body score is quite good (see GURPS: Compendium 1 -
they'd like to have it, too but it would make older material too
incompatible). Personally I like the approach of Silhouette - STR is a
derived attribute of Body (your size) and Fitness (is it muscle or fat?).
Neat.

> What are the 'worst' features that you think was left in from Interlock?

Now that you mention it - my Interlock days are long gone and I can't
remember any specific thing. It's more that IMO they spoiled a decent
realistic system (Interlock) by adding a system that uses comic book physics
as it's base assumption and didn't even worked out the rough edges that
invariably appear when meshing two entirely different systems.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 21:53:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:53:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEFKCDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020210085323.A31956@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
>  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a M0 main sequence
> star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC indicates that it
> is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that there is a
> planet located further inwards towards the sun.

According to the game books. yes that's usually the case.  In real
life, it is highly likely that planets exist closer in to less
luminous stars than they do to brighter ones.  The reverse is almost
certainly true.  Just remember that the Titius-Bode 'Law' that nearly
all game books use is an empirical observation based on a sample of 1
systems, and doesn't even fit them too well :)

Since the books were written, at least one other star system has been
discovered with more than one planet.  The first one found definitely
does *not* follow anything like Bode's Law.  I haven't seen data on
others, but I'd be very surprised if that was the only one to date.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:00:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT Had to Share
Message-ID: <02b001c1b1bd$82e89360$f9ded63f@customer>

In a message dated 2/6/02 10:17:48 AM Central Standard Time,
jhoover951@msn.com writes:

Almost 150 years ago, President Lincoln found it necessary
>       to hire a private investigator, Mr. Alan Pinkerton.  He was
>       actually the beginning of the Secret Service.
>
> Since that time federal police authority has grown to a
>       large number of agencies - FBI, CIA, INS, IRS, DEA, BATF,
>       SS, ATF, etc.
> Now Congress is considering a proposal for another agency:
>       The "Federal Air Transportation Airport Security Service."
>       Can't you see it now, the new service in their black outfits
>       with their initials in large white letters across their backs?
>       "FATASS"





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 22:15:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:15:08 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:

> 
> 
> Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > 
> > >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal
> > >squad/fire- team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two,
> > >including those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at
> > >all.
> 
> According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).

Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 22:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:35:10 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
Message-ID: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>

I've been playing around with some of the UWP data and applying Far
Trader economic rules to it.  I thought I'd check out the total trade
volume between the Imperial sectors to either side of Corridor.  The
results are rather interesting.

The total external trade volume going through Corridor is about BTN
13, or 10-50 trillion credits worth per year.  Using the long-distance
modifier, this equates to about 10-50 million dtons per week.  That's
a *lot* of liners!

There are 3 systems which divide all this trade between them: Neghu
Oug (C63A641-9), Uughrae (A766367-D) and Habretic (C663110-9).  None
of them are quite what I would have expected for such a huge amount of
shipping.

I'm sure there are *plenty* of interesting stories there.  The
starports in such a system would see items and people from every
corner of the Imperium.  No doubt too they would see plenty of Naval
personnel tasked with protecting this vital cross-Imperium trade!  At
such places, you could probably find anything you wanted -- or perhaps
something or someone you didn't want could find you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:08:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 17:08:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C65AC0B.21D62E80@premier.net>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > >
> > > >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal
> > > >squad/fire- team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two,
> > > >including those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at
> > > >all.
> >
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

I can think of a couple of reasons for such an organization:

1.  It trained junior leaders to think in in terms of the triangular
organization found at higher echelons (three primary maneuver elements,
plus any support), thus readying them to conduct operations with larger
elements.

2.  This organization gave the Marines an excuse to increase their TOE
allotment of BARs (since each fire team was authorized a BAR).

> Military Intelligence
> ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
> on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
> activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
> mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

A tres cool sig file, which inspired my use for now of my current sig
file.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:09:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>

How much time did it take Tim to discover what everyone aware of trade
in the sector would now without effort?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 23:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>

How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)

Something has to be wrong here.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:30:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net> <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020210113058.A32367@freeman.little-possums.net>

n2sami wrote:
> How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)
> 
> Something has to be wrong here.

Well, the trade does go through 1 of 3 systems.  My guess is that not
much goes via that route.  Or maybe, the primary planet has a tiny
outpost, but there is a much larger starport elsewhere in the system
whose population doesn't count in the UWP?

Even the biggest system of the three has a population in the
single-digit millions, a tech level of just 9, and a C starport.  The
most likely candidate for the bulk of the trade (due to its A-class
starport and TL D) has a population in the single-digit thousands.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:53:22 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net> <000001c1b1be$cadc43a0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020210115322.B32367@freeman.little-possums.net>

n2sami wrote:
> How much time did it take Tim to discover what everyone aware of
> trade in the sector would now without effort?

>From formulating the question in my head to getting a quantitative
answer, about 60 seconds; much of which was spent typing in the query
:)

Sure, I knew that quite a bit of trade had to flow through Corridor.
I wasn't sure how much, since after all it is a *lot* of jumps from
the Spinward Marches to Core, at a week and a fair few hundred credits
per dton each jump.

Even so, I suspected a fair few billions of credits per week.  I
didn't expect many *hundreds* of billions per week, and I didn't
expect it to pass through such low-profile systems.  I was expecting
major trade routes made up entirely of systems with A-class starports,
C+ tech levels, and populations in at least the millions.

After all, the starship crews alone would make up a fair few hundred
thousand people in dock at any one time.  Surely there'd be more
residents than transients?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 01:11:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:11:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210115322.B32367@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000801c1b1cf$d7909d10$2f7de40c@loki>

I did a click across the corridor, from Regina to Capital, trip awhile
back on someone's online atlas. I was surprised how difficult it was to
visit only high pop, good port system on that journey.

Seems we have found the frontier and it is inside our borders. I really
think that 
A) folks discount how much empty space there is and 
B) so much room for mischief is left out there and 
C) what a tough job the Imperial Navy has patrolling it all and 
D) explains lots of the discrepancies found in the otherwise excellent
work of the IISS surveys.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 01:35:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:35:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] A couple of ship design questions
In-Reply-To: <20020209141444.B26480@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEBADLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>    While designing a Merchantship earlier, I discovered that I
>> didn't have any idea what the default/average weight of a unit of
>> cargo is supposed to be.
>
>Typically about 5 tonnes/dton, I believe.  I can't find a reference
>offhand, though :(
>
>Some items may be lower than 1 tonne/dton, while bulk liquids (in
>containers) would routinely go over 10 tonnes/dton.
>
>
GT:Far Trader p 55-58 describes different types of cargo, dtons required and
gross tons of weight. Anything over 25 stons/dton is considered a heavy load
and requires special holds (extra bracing, blocking, gravic compensation,
etc.) or there is increased wear and tear on the ship.

FT gives many other details and is IMHO well worth procuring, even if you do
not use GT.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 02:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:07:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] Journalists in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb88a4506e1d3@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEBBDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>On 01/11/02 at 07:20 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>><grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>>ObTrav - To what lengths would the 3I go to to hide warship losses?
>>>There  is no First Amendment and journalists are pretty much at the
>>>mercy of  whatever polity they anger.
>>
>>While this is true, it is also possible to play the 3I as with a
>>remote and mostly indifferent government that would be slow to respond
>>to threats, especially threats that didn't have major and direct
>>effects on intersteller trade. In an environment like that a
>>"travelling journalist" could get away with muckraking, expose's,
>>scandalizing, and downright security breeches...if they were careful.
>>Concentrate on local and regional things (less likely to bring the
>>real weight of the 3I down on you, disquise your identity (always
>>publish under a pseudonym and with a "public face" that doesn't match
>>your own, travel incogneto and with coverstories), find and live in a
>>safe haven and don't foul your nest (no reporting on things in your
>>home system and pick that home system with an eye to one that will
>>protect you from extradition), keep on the move, and be prepared to
>>either drop stories that are "too hot" or "for the good of the
>>Imperium."
>>
>>You know I can see a campaign there, a team of journalists working on
>>assignment, undercover, for some big media broker, especially, if they
>>are the sort of journalists that can't help but get involved in the
>>stories they are covering.
>
>In the TAS news items there are some instances where reporters
>challenge Imperial officials (on reports of Ine Givar Activity).
>There seems to be _some_ independence, at least for influential
>organizations.  Either because there are reporting organizations who
>can withstand at least some pressure or because this kind of
>reporting is useful uo significant parts of society (for example, the
>nobility like how it helps them keep track of what the emperor is
>doing).
>--

Remember that the TAS is a rich sophonts club and that JTAS items started
out as advisories for members, who are among the elite of the Imperium. Just
because its in a TAS report doesn't mean that it's been broadcast to
everyone everywhere.

I use JTAS as a member only journal that has news and information not
generally shared with the non-Traveller populous. Sure from time to time
stories are leaked to the general press, but many High CR worlds won't be
publishing that information anyway. JTAS tends to be more critical of
individual Imperial policies, and from time to time, Imperial
representatives (including nobles) because TAS has the clout in the form of
all of the other Imperial Nobles who are members. They can call it like they
see it, as long as they don't violate the Secrets Act.

TNS tends to be more watered down for the masses, as much of this
information is picked up by local news services, on worlds that have a free
press. Often if TNS is critical of a particular individual, be they Imperial
Noble or Imperial Bureaucrat, it is because an Archduke or a member of the
Imperial Family has wanted that story to go out. A subtle nudge or reprimand
that what they're doing is being watched.

In the above example, it might be the Emperor saying, "Look your reports are
saying that there's nothing to this Ine Givar thing, but I know better.
Either admit that things are bad and figure out a way to fix it or I'll send
in someone who will."

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 02:38:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:38:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>> I for one, find it rather fun to note that with the advent of the troop
>>>> carriers - the Navy now has something else to spend its money on.  :)
>>>
>>>Or a new source of inter-service rivalry.  "You want us to spend OUR
>>>budget on ships to ferry YOUR troops!?"
>>>
>>Is it canon that troop transport ships are IN ships? IRL both commercial
>>ships (like ocean liners) and Army operated ships were used to transport
>>troops. The commercial ships used Merchant Marine crew. The Army ships
used
>>soldiers train in seamanship.
>
>Hello Terry,
>  In response to your question, page 6 of MEGATRAVELLER'S FIGHTING SHIPS,
>you will find under AssaultRon: Comprised of troop transports and
>supporting ships.  Capable of carrying hundreds of battalions of invading
>troops.
>
>I guess that makes it canon...
>
>             Hal

I guess I should have made my statement clearer. Who runs the ships in the
AssaultRon? Are they crewed by members of the Imperial Navy, Sector Navies
(which might make sense since the troops are from the Sector Armies) or by
members of the Army itself? It's true that in the U.S, which is probably the
only nation left that has significant sea lift capability, troop transport
ships are run by the navy, but that doesn't mean that is the way the
Imperium does it. In fact in today's world troop transports are only used
for the Marines. The Army is primarily moved by air (by the USAF) with their
heavy equipment moved by either commercial ships or Military Sealift Command
ships which are crewed by a mixture of civilian merchant marine and navy
crew.

So how does the Imperium do it?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:00:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:00:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Reporters
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013191960.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>>
>> Actually, they tend to assume that the brass is lying to them because,
>> in the past, the brass HAVE been lying to them. It is not because their
>> instructors have 'taught them to', like good commie left-wing academic
>> radicals.
>
>And our esteemed secretary of defense talking about how truth in war is so
>important that it must be protected with a bodyguard of lies does not
incline
>one to believe everything the military says....

That is an inaccurate quote. I happen to watch that particular news
conference in its entirety. SOD's statement was along the lines of ~"while
Churchill said that 'in war truth is so important that it must be protected
with a bodyguard of lies' that is history. We (the DOD) should never have to
lie to protect a secret. If I don't want you to know (about a subject) I
just won't tell you." He then asked the press corps not to quote him out of
context, which you just did.

I assume that you got the quote from some news hack, who was just waiting
for such a line.

Further does the 'brass' lie to the press? Sure. As long as the press can't
seem the tell the difference between a scandal, which the public has a right
to know, and a military secret, whose release can get people killed I will
expect the 'brass' to lie to them from time to time, if only to prevent the
kind of circus that went on in Haiti as the Marines came ashore. Had the
locals decided to contest the landing many good men and useless TV hacks
would have ended up dead on that beach.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

P.S. Excuse my exuberance on this subject. A man who I served under, and
very much respected, was hounded to his death by the worst kind of
mudrakkers. His suicide was a blow to his family, the men who served under
him, and who he served, and his country.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:21:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <a3.2362188c.29956cc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEBDDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Lets not forget that some "crackpot" ideas are only so because they are
technology limited. Leonardo conceived the tank, but it was could not be
built and deployed in earnest until the 20th century.

The Navy is investigating the use of the X-Ray laser now, but I don't
realistically expect to see one deployed as a weapon for many decades, if
not longer.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 03:45:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:45:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller  (was {CBC} Canon)
In-Reply-To: <20020208061812.OMNM319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEBEDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

><tim@freeman.little-possums.net> typed:
>>Subject: Re: [TML] {CBC} Canon
><<<SNIPPAGE OF RULES DESIGN ARGUMENT I AM STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING>>>
>>I'm not personally sure what the selection process for US Marines is,
>>so I can't comment on whether they're likely to have above average DX
>>or not.
>
>Former US Marine here.  The selection process for decades now has had
>higher education and intelligence test requirements to enlist in the Marine
>Corps than in the Navy, Air Force, or Army.  Not a widely known fact,
>although recruiters love to crow about it.
<snip>
>You should probably count boot camp as part of the selection process.
>During my day, roughly a third of enlistees would wash out of boot camp and
>be given a discharge.  During the first few days, they gave us
>opportunities to just raise our hands and say we'd changed our minds.  The
>paper work would take months longer, and they'd keep you around pushing a
>broom or some such until then.  The primary criteria for graduating from
>boot camp are psychological commitment and physical endurance.  They make
>each day a trying process, and if you don't **want** to get through to
>graduation, you won't.
>
>The physical demands of boot camp definitely emphasized endurance more than
>strength, dexterity, intelligence, education, or social standing.  Strength
>and dex were definitely quite significant, of course.

As an aside and as a 20 year Navy man I have to say that I've known a number
of Marines in my life, all of who were outstanding individuals. Where I work
now (a DOE research facility) we have several Marines, who graduated from
boot camp over a period of at least 15 years. I also know ex-Navy who also
graduated over a similar period.

A quick talk with each group and you will find that the Navy types each went
to a completely different kind of boot camp. From my own late Viet Nam era
period of marching and carrying rifles, through the "must not stress out the
recruits" era of the eighties, to the much more specific damage control
training stuff of the 21st century, the Navy peoples experiences were all
colored by the era in which they attend boot camp. The Marines all went to
the same boot camp. I mean They All Went To The Same Boot Camp. If you stand
around and listen to them, they could have all been there at the same time.
Nothing is different from one persons experience to the other.  They have a
bond that other people just don't have.

I gotta say: If I want a bridge blown up or somebody killed I'd call the
Navy Seals. If I wanted somebody to get my butt out of a besieged embassy,
or standing between me and some really bad people. I'd take a Marine every
time.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 04:06:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:06:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <PEDGAKOKKDOOFBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEBEDLAA.carlino@cox.net>

Traveller is great because it's a game that can be played so many ways.

Sure you can RPG it with a GM and a group of players. Or you can play
solitaire, by designing worlds, sectors, ships, characters. Heck you can
even just roll up a character and follow his career (or die in character
creation.)

You can play Traveller by playing FFW or Mayday, or Bright Lances or Battle
Riders. Or even using GURPS Traveller ship combat rules, modified for fleet
combat. Or with you own system, as long as its vector based or hex based or
abstract movement based.

Or you can play be PBEM, or on chat or by GRIP or with a 15 year old
computer game.

Or you can spend all your time on line on the JTAS boards or the T20
playtest of the TML.

It doesn't matter because you're playing Traveller.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 04:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:54:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202091042160.12616-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202092053200.1129-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even 
> > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one 
> > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many 
> > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  

Well, there are gamers (such as me) who find combat essentially boring.
Combat is what you do when the role-playing alone won't get you what you
wanted.  I would play the characters with the negotiation and the
detective type skills when I was a teenager, and when it broke down to
fisticuffs or Gunnery, I would go bake the cookies for everyone else.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:37:22 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C65AC0B.21D62E80@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C66CBF2.9507.1186EA@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2002, at 17:08, John Groth wrote:

> I can think of a couple of reasons for such an organization:
> 
> 1.  It trained junior leaders to think in in terms of the triangular
> organization found at higher echelons (three primary maneuver elements,
> plus any support), thus readying them to conduct operations with larger
> elements.

Except that squads are run by NCOs, who don't (in the normal scheme of things) 
run platoons and up.
 
> 2.  This organization gave the Marines an excuse to increase their TOE
> allotment of BARs (since each fire team was authorized a BAR).

Now that would be a good reason. :)
 
> > Military Intelligence
> > ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
> > on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
> > activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
> > mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.
> 
> A tres cool sig file, which inspired my use for now of my current sig
> file.

Thanks. It comes from a hand-out that we got given by one of the Staff Sergeant 
instructors during my Military Intelligence 'Corps training'.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 06:37:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:37:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210063930.CFOM319.dorsey@link>

"Monty Python.....British Dental Association."  Ahhhhh, now I get it.
Wink's as good as a nudge to a blind bat.

Thank you, Mr. Whipsnade.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:29:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:29:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Law  and Firearms For Self Defense
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEJHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCENJCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Basic rules of firearms as taught to me by the U.S.Army:

If you want to kill someone with a firearm, shoot for center of mass.

If you want to stop someone without killing them, shoot below the waist,
treat for shock, then call for paramedics.

As for civil courts, one would assume that your deliberate intent not to
kill, (shooting below the waist), and your treatment for shock afterwards,
would weigh heavily in your favor in a self defense situation, should the
would be burglar try to sue you afterwards. This assumes the breaking and
entering occurs at night, or under poor lighting conditions.

I would suggest NOT shooting in a well lit area if the perp has no firearm,
or if the range of the encounter occurs outside of the effective range of a
knife wielding assailant.

If using a shotgun for home defense, my personal preference is to load a
bean round for the first round (note: last round actually loaded), and
serious ammo second. Doing so, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my
intent is NOT to kill. Also it gives me the satisfaction of shooting him
anyway, under any conditions, whether he has a weapon or not.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:29:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>

Hey now!!!  Spending three months addressing everyone a recruit sees as Sir
is good training.  They don't just address NCOs that way, but everyone.
Even the private who is issuing them gear at supply or whatever.  But,
starting the very instant they graduate from boot camp, if the new privates
start to call another enlisted Marine sir, and god forbid one of their
drill instructors that, welllll....that's exactly what the Marines have
been waiting to hear so they can jump all over the boot private's ....., um
jump all over the private.  They'd damn well better know the difference
between a training environment and the real thing.

We get plenty of mileage out of that "I'm not an officer, I work for a
living," line too.  Always fun to see some kid's face who hasn't heard it
before when you tell it to them.

AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
not just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men
have a tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and
age, and we need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the
practice.  The recruits usually don't even see officers during a typical
training day, so we let the boots practice on the drill instructors and any
other random Marine they might be unfortunate enough to run afoul of.  They
practice saluting in a similar fashion.  Oh, and recruits never, ever
address or refer to a drill instructor as "D.I.".  Hoo boy, don't do that.
Ever try dodging a flying foot locker while remaining at the position of
attention?  Not to mention how the next thirty minutes of your life is
going to be hell.

In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always
use the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First
Sergeant Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to
sergeants, master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".
 Makes me shiver and want to strangle someone every time I hear it.  The
sole exception in the USMC is that it is quite common to refer to Gunnery
Sergeant Hill as Gunny Hill.  Gunny just sounds cool, I dunno.

A much subtler nicety of etiquette that it took some time for me to learn
is Sergeants Major.  A certain percentage of them seem to really get off on
the display of fear implied when an enlisted Marine addresses them (MOST
improperly) as "sir".  Others just let the nearest corporal or sergeant or
whoever jump all over the offending party and correct their behavior.  This
trivial task is not really worth a sergeant major's time.  Some sergeants
major will correct the offender themselves, though.  Some few sergeants
major really encourage "sir", and you will get on their shi--, er bad list
if you don't do it.  Never good to be on the sergeant major's bad list, and
usually the only way to get off it is when you transfer to your next duty
station.  It's always fun to guess whether a particular sergeant major will
prefer "sir" or not.  It says something about their character, I think.  I
prefer mine without the "sir".  The other type seem hypocritical and
potential petty tyrants.

Note that the sig I am about to use always brings a smile to my face and a
warm fuzzy inside.  Then I glance around to see whether anyone needs an
immediate painful application of behavioral modification if they do not see
the wisdom in these words.

--Laning
--formerly Sergeant, United States Marine Corps
"God loves the Marine Corps.  Because we KILL everything we see.  In
exchange for providing Heaven with this fresh supply of new souls, God lets
us guard His pearly gates."  -the senior drill instructor explaining a
Marine's role in the universe to his recruits in 'Full Metal Jacket'

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 at 20:50:06 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> typed:
>>>
He's the _only_ NCO _ever_ addressed as 
"Sir", and the idea that we'd do like the US Marines and have recruits
address 
an NCO as "Sir" while in training is considered both laughable and
repugnant by 
our NCOs. We worked for our pay.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:35:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Stopping Doped Up Criminals
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013198535.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGENJCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Stopping people and making them fall down was why .45 caliber ammo was
invented.

For pure stopping power, a shotgun is hard to beat.
Gun goes boom, man falls down.


-----Original Message-----

Well, there's reasonable evidence that people fall down after being shot
because the brain goes 'oh, I've been shot!  Time to fall down'.  A lot of
things can interfere with this process, at which point you're left with the
option of doing enough damage that they can't avoid falling down, which
means
killing or crippling injuries.

That said, most drug-related crime is gang-related activity or theft, and
people ignoring bullets is rarely going to be an issue.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 07:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:55:06 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>

A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:

A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.

I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

These figures only related to hits and misses and did not mention fatalities
or wound severity.

This suggests to me that proper training has a significant impact.  The
police, trained for combat situations, have a big advantage over the average
person who, at best, may have practiced target shooting.

This observation is backed up by a personal experience I had.  Some years
ago in my foolish teens I played a lot of laser tag.  There was one occasion
where I went in as a 'bunny', that is I had a vest and could be shot but
didn't have a gun.  Most of the other players in the game had never played
before and I hardly got hit; except for one other regular player who had
snuck in with the new players and shot me to pieces every time I went near
him.

If you want to model realism I think training and experience has a lot to do
with it, at least as far as 'civilian' combat goes.  Battlefield combat
where everybody is trained and techniques like supressing fire are used
seems to change the dynamics and hit ratios and this might need some more
thought.

One other thing that occured to me about making a combat system more like
real life is this:  Traveller is not like real life.  Technology has moved
on, in particular materials technology in Traveller has advanced to the
point where personal body armour can reliably stop most 'conventional'
smallarms.

Finally, my personal approach to wound realism in combat is this:  rather
than needing to tinker with the rules to affect realism, I let the
individual dice results do it for me:  If you roll a torso hit that does
minimal damage it obviously didn't hit anything vital.  If you roll a torso
hit that does a chunk of damage then you obviously got one of the target's
more imporatant squishy bits.  A good narrative that interprets the results
can give an illusion of realism that a dry table can't, especially if combat
is a rare thing in your universe.

I will now slink back into lurk mode.

Regards.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:26:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:26:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Corridor sector
In-Reply-To: <20020210113058.A32367@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
 <20020210093510.B31956@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <000101c1b1bf$0c188d10$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210002027.009ea0c0@mindspring.com>

At 11:30 AM 2/10/02 +1100, you wrote:
>n2sami wrote:
> > How does a system with pop 1 dominate trade? Habretic (C663110-9)
> >
> > Something has to be wrong here.
>
>Well, the trade does go through 1 of 3 systems.  My guess is that not
>much goes via that route.  Or maybe, the primary planet has a tiny
>outpost, but there is a much larger starport elsewhere in the system
>whose population doesn't count in the UWP?
>
>Even the biggest system of the three has a population in the
>single-digit millions, a tech level of just 9, and a C starport.  The
>most likely candidate for the bulk of the trade (due to its A-class
>starport and TL D) has a population in the single-digit thousands.

Now here is the fun part of world building.. why is this vital place so 
underpopulated?

Perhaps it is a boom world gone bust.  Once there was lanthanum a-plenty, 
but the belt dried up years ago, and most of the miners left.  What was 
left was one nice starport and a good technological base.  The remaining 
locals threw themselves into the starshiop support business, making the 
world a massive port of call/truckstop.  Local laws, especially those 
regarding vice, tend to be ignored as long as the crews on libery are 
spending money.

Adventure idea:  A nearby world has announced an upgrade project to its 
starport.  This will draw off traffice from the first world, and cause 
extreme hardship.  They will go to any lengths to derail the upgrade.  The 
players may be hired to perform acts of sabotage, be caught up in such an 
act, or become otherwise entangled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:30:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:30:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Marines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBCDLAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020207230032.00e175e8@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210002747.009e92c0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 2/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I guess I should have made my statement clearer. Who runs the ships in the
>AssaultRon? Are they crewed by members of the Imperial Navy, Sector Navies
>(which might make sense since the troops are from the Sector Armies) or by
>members of the Army itself? It's true that in the U.S, which is probably the
>only nation left that has significant sea lift capability, troop transport
>ships are run by the navy, but that doesn't mean that is the way the
>Imperium does it. In fact in today's world troop transports are only used
>for the Marines. The Army is primarily moved by air (by the USAF) with their
>heavy equipment moved by either commercial ships or Military Sealift Command
>ships which are crewed by a mixture of civilian merchant marine and navy
>crew.

My view is that the subsector army (aka the Unified Army of Foo subsector) 
will be carried by the subsector navy.  This allows the navy to purchase 
enough transports (Keiths, low-berth ships, and cargo haulers) to handle 
their particular needs.  The Imperial Navy does posses some troop transport 
capabilities, but this is a secondary thing for them.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:39:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210084125.CSOK319.dorsey@link>

Most of the replies to Andy Brick's inquiry so far have displayed a heavy
bias towards U.S. organization.  While these posts were certainly helpful
and valid, I fear that Mr. Brick may be getting a skewed impression of how
things work.  I'm grateful to the two recent posters (Mr. Boleyn is one of
them) who described the usual organization in the UK and Commonwealth
countries.

The basic difference is that the U.S. seems to put ungodly amounts of
resources into our military compared to most other nations.  Where at
various times in recent years a U.S. tank platoon might have five or maybe
four tanks, most countries are content with three or four.  Where our
companies are often composed of three or four platoons, many countries get
by with just two platoons.  And so on.  The U.S. also tends to have many
more support-type subunits within its units.  We usually have a
Headquarters & Supply Company within a battalion, and a Recon Platoon, and
a Weapons Company, as well as the obligatory three or four line infantry
companies, other countries will have two or three line companies plus fewer
and smaller support units within their battalions.

If you look at the TO&E of a country with less tech/industry than the US or
UK, say India or China or Indonesia as possible examples, you find a whole
lot less in the way of support troops compared to say the US, UK, Germany,
France, or Italy.

As the cost of equipping an infantryman or buying a tank has increased over
the years, almost all countries have shown a tendency to compose a division
of fewer regiments or brigades, a regiment of fewer battalions, a battalion
of fewer companies, a company of fewer platoons, etc.  It lets the generals
push about as many battalions around their war game maps as before without
having to pay more money to do it.  If anyone presses the issue, they just
point out that there may be fewer men in the unit, but it has more "combat
power" because of its newest and coolest equipment.  Sometimes it sounds
like paid advertising for the equipment's manufacturer.  They usually
include mention of how they now train troops better than they used to, so
that makes the difference too.  I'm not sure how much of their own bullshit
they believe when they say this stuff.  Difficult to assess.  Although
there is usually a kernel of truth there.  Just no Colonel of Truth.
Example of how equipment gets spread more thinly over units as the
equipment gets more difficult/expensive to procure:  from 1938 to 1945, the
Germans halved the number of tanks per tank division, and then halved it
again.


There really is no standard organization that is the same from country to
country.  For that matter, the standard organization within one country is
often quite different between its paratrooper outfits, straight leg
infantry outfits, mechanized/motorized infantry outfits, tank outfits, and
so on.  Finally, recent history shows us that if you wait a few years, a
country will heavily reorganize its units and things will be different again.

Dragging the discussion momentarily back to Traveller, I can't remember any
TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) that has been published in
Traveller canon that really made much sense to me.  Not enough support
units or support troops in them, is my point of view.  Lean and mean is
well and good, but who keeps all that high-tech gear supplied and running?
Who feeds people?  How are communications and surveillance and such done?
Why don't they ever have much in the way of support weapons, particularly
light-weight, indirect fire weapons like mortars?  If it is a unit likely
to be deployed to other star systems, shouldn't they make every fire team,
section, squad, or whatever have more personnel than otherwise?  That way,
when they take losses the unit is still relatively effective and less
dependent on the replacement pipeline to deliver new warm bodies.  Said
replacements entering the pipeline from at least one jump away.  Fatter
fire teams or squads might mean that the total number of companies that can
be fielded is smaller, but it also means that the "replacements" are
already present and done with their on the job training.  When you're in a
shooting war on another planet, there isn't time to train replacements in
your unit's procedures.  By the time you get replacements transferred from
army, group, division or whoever all the way down to regiment then
battalion then company then platoon then squad, a lot of precious time has
been lost.


Oh, whoever posted earlier that they are not aware of any military who uses
three fire teams per squad (or similar words), that would be the USMC
infantry for most of the last half of the 20th century.  Three fire teams
of twelve men, plus one squad leader.  A four-man fire team is robust
enough to still be an effective fire/maneuver unit after taking casualties,
and having three fire/maneuever elements gives a squad leader a great deal
of useful tactical flexibility.  A well-led Marine rifle squad is a
powerful thing on a battlefield.  I believe this particular TO originated
with the Marine Raider Battalion of WW2.  One thing I like about this is
that each squad has three fire-team leaders who are getting a bit of
leadership experience and thus are more prepared to step into the squad
leader role when the time comes.  Most U.S. Army infantrymen I've talked to
described themselves as "the tenth assistant machine gunner".  Meaning they
felt the only real combat power in the squad was the machine gun and
everyone else's role is to replace the machine gunner and assistant gunner
if/when they become casualties.  Seems like an awful waste of ten trained
infantrymen to have them cooling their heals waiting for the MG to do the
work, and none of them is getting preparation to replace the squad leader.

We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
"attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a great
deal of their lives "attached" to someone else.  There's actually a bit
more to it than that, but that's the simple picture.  For roughly 25 years,
we did have one Browning Automatic Rifle  (BAR) per fire team, and in most
circles this is considered a light machine gun, but it has a small
magazine.  For a long time, we've had one "grenadier" per fire team, who
has a greande launcher modification below the barrel of his M-16.  This
adds an interesting and useful dimension to the fire team's capabilities.

--Laning
"War is not an affair of chance.  A great deal of knowledge, study, and
meditation is necessary to conduct it well, and when blows are planned
whoever contrives them with the greatest appreciation of their consequences
will have a great advantage."  -Frederick the Great
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On 8 Feb 2002, at 17:38, Andy Brick wrote:
>>>
 How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
 Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of
 organisation I've missed ? Cadre, perhaps ?) And what ranks command each
 size of unit ? I'm thinking infantry here, but while I'm at it - how many
 tanks would you get in armoured units ?
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:44:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:44:20 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
References: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6632E4.182F4C09@premier.net>

Laning wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> We get plenty of mileage out of that "I'm not an officer, I work for a
> living," line too.  Always fun to see some kid's face who hasn't heard it
> before when you tell it to them.

After nearly 14 years as an NCO, I sometimes catch myself just before
saying this to _civilians_ who address me as "sir."  As I grow older, I
find myself addressed as "sir" by more and more people.... :-(
> 
> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
> not just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men
> have a tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and
> age, and we need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the
> practice.

When I went through Basic (US Army, Ft. Leonard Wood, D-4-3, 1984), we
did _not_ address our drill sergeants as "sir," for the reasons noted
above.  I was fortunate enough to have been briefed how properly to
address sergeants, drill or otherwise, prior to my first day at
Lost-in-the-Woods.  Note also that the US Army refers to one's initial
training prior to training in one's Military Occupational Specialty as
"Basic," rather than "boot camp."  I haven't the foggiest idea what term
US Air Force personnel use to refer to the resort they enjoy in lieu of
basic/boot camp.

<<snip>>
> 
> In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always
> use the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First
> Sergeant Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to
> sergeants, master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".

Not quite true.  NCOs in the US Army are addressed as either Corporal
(not many of those in the US Army, as most US Army soldiers of pay grade
E-4 are Specialists, and not considered NCOs), Sergeant (for NCOs
between the ranks of Sergeant [E-5] and Master Sergeant [E-8 not serving
as a company First Sergeant], inclusive), First Sergeant (NCOs
performing duties as a company First Sergeant, regardless of pay grade)
or Sergeant Major (for NCOs of pay grade E-9, regardless of duty
position).  Unusually tolerant First Sergeants will accept being
addressed (by subordinate NCOs, anyway) as "Top" (short for "Top
Sergeant," an older term for First Sergeant).

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  The difficulties that PCs can get into by addressing an NCO
according to the protocols of the PCs' former service, rather than those
of the service to which the NCO belongs, are plain enough that I need
not go into further detail.  GT players may consider this entire issue
as covered by the Savoir Faire (Military) skill, possibly with penalties
for personnel from services outside one's own.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:45:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003608.009ffe20@mindspring.com>

At 06:55 PM 2/10/02 +1100, you wrote:
>A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
>
>A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
>no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.
>
>I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
>where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
>can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
>remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
>offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
>just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

Training is a big factor in this.  I have researched similar stats while 
doing ACQ.  I found some real oddities, like a pitched gun battle the had 
both the combatants emptying 9mm pistols at the other with no one getting 
hit.  The entire combat took place inside a police car.

The vast majority of shots fired in a combat situation are either fired 
blindly or at movement.  *Rarely* will you get someone dumb enough to 
provide you with the chance for a nice clear sighting and trigger 
squeeze.  Experienced American soldiers from WWII admitted that they would 
often go through days of intense combat without ever seeing what they were 
shooting at!

>This suggests to me that proper training has a significant impact.  The
>police, trained for combat situations, have a big advantage over the average
>person who, at best, may have practiced target shooting.

Quick point.. there is a difference between combat training and what the 
police get.  I received combat training with the .45.  It was training on 
getting the pistol up, correct grip, and accurate firing to center 
mass.  The emphasis in police work is shoot/no shoot decision making.

>Finally, my personal approach to wound realism in combat is this:  rather
>than needing to tinker with the rules to affect realism, I let the
>individual dice results do it for me:  If you roll a torso hit that does
>minimal damage it obviously didn't hit anything vital.  If you roll a torso
>hit that does a chunk of damage then you obviously got one of the target's
>more imporatant squishy bits.  A good narrative that interprets the results
>can give an illusion of realism that a dry table can't, especially if combat
>is a rare thing in your universe.

One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your 
task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This 
accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get 
those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it 
worked well in playtesting.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 08:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:35:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>

At 02:29 AM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
>not just the Marine Corps.

Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill 
Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."



--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:02:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210073124.CLPX319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C66EDE7.32689.9631FD@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 2:29, Laning wrote:

> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp not
> just the Marine Corps.  I think it's useful, because a lot of young men have a
> tough time getting accustomed to calling anyone Sir in this day and age, and we
> need to break them to the idea and accustom them to the practice.  The recruits
> usually don't even see officers during a typical training day, so we let the
> boots practice on the drill instructors and any other random Marine they might
> be unfortunate enough to run afoul of.  They practice saluting in a similar
> fashion.  Oh, and recruits never, ever address or refer to a drill instructor as
> "D.I.".  Hoo boy, don't do that. Ever try dodging a flying foot locker while
> remaining at the position of attention?  Not to mention how the next thirty
> minutes of your life is going to be hell.

Well we saw our Platoon Commander every day of basic and you better believe we 
learnt to call her "Ma'am" and salute. Getting that wrong meant that the 
platoon sergeant (a position, not a rank - he was a gergeant) would hear about 
it, and as it reflected poorly on his ability to train soldiers he would become 
unhappy. An unhappy platoon sergeant is a Bad Thing.
 
> In the USMC, when addressing an enlisted Marine, you always, always, always use
> the full and complete name for their rank.  Lance Corporal Smith, First Sergeant
> Jones, Master Sergeant Jenkins, etc.  The army usually refers to sergeants,
> master sergeants, sergeants major alike all as just "sergeants".

We call privates "Private Clements", lance corporals and corporals are both 
"Corporal" or "Corporal Barnes" (the latter is more likely in a more formal 
situation, or when there is possibilty for confusion).A lance corporal is only 
addressed as "Lance Corporal" if you're being snarky. A sergeant is "Sergeant" 
or "Sergeant Shaw" (though a private using the latter needlessly is likely to 
get in trouble - most of the time the full adress is used by superior to 
inferior rank), a staff segeant "Staff" or "Staff Mounsey". A WO1 is addressed 
as "Sarn't Major" to reflect the rank's old name. A WO2 is addressed as "Sir", 
but you don't salute, IIRC.

> A much subtler nicety of etiquette that it took some time for me to learn
> is Sergeants Major.  A certain percentage of them seem to really get off on the
> display of fear implied when an enlisted Marine addresses them (MOST improperly)
> as "sir".  Others just let the nearest corporal or sergeant or whoever jump all
> over the offending party and correct their behavior.  This trivial task is not
> really worth a sergeant major's time.  Some sergeants major will correct the
> offender themselves, though.  Some few sergeants major really encourage "sir",
> and you will get on their shi--, er bad list if you don't do it.  Never good to
> be on the sergeant major's bad list, and usually the only way to get off it is
> when you transfer to your next duty station.  It's always fun to guess whether a
> particular sergeant major will prefer "sir" or not.  It says something about
> their character, I think.  I prefer mine without the "sir".  The other type seem
> hypocritical and potential petty tyrants.

Any sarn't major in our army who tried that on would have the shit come down on 
him from a great height, not to mention lose all respect from his NCOs. There 
is only one NCO rank that gets a "Sir", and they're practically officers (and 
get payed a hell of a lot more than most officers).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:10:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <20020210084125.CSOK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202091029.g19ATpN03940@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C66EFC7.8074.9D82C2@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 3:39, Laning wrote:

> We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
> of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
> weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
> weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
> commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
> subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
> "attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a great deal
> of their lives "attached" to someone else.  There's actually a bit more to it
> than that, but that's the simple picture.  For roughly 25 years, we did have one
> Browning Automatic Rifle  (BAR) per fire team, and in most circles this is
> considered a light machine gun, but it has a small magazine.  For a long time,
> we've had one "grenadier" per fire team, who has a greande launcher modification
> below the barrel of his M-16.  This adds an interesting and useful dimension to
> the fire team's capabilities.

Sounds like an excuse to under-equip the marines when it came to MGs. That said 
NZ went to that sort of pattern in the late 80's when it replaced the section 
GPMG with an FN MINIMI and moved the GPMGs to a SFMG (Sustained Fire MG) 
platoon in the battalion, from which Battalion HQ hands out 'dets' of two GPMGs 
set up for the sustained fire role as it sees fit. This cut down the number of 
(expensive and ageing) GPMGs per battalion by quite a bit.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:11:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <memo.716017@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Greetings dear hearts.

I too have played a fair amount of laser-tag. Early on I realised that of 
our group, I was the only one with any competence at fieldcraft... despite 
several who CLAIMED to be good at it!

Eventually I had a lot of fun developing a techie character who was 
hopeless at combat, and claiming the record for number of times hit by a 
massive margin!

Of course, when I played 'opfor' I reverted to my normal competence and 
this really confused the rest of them :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:16:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003608.009ffe20@mindspring.com>
References: <003701c1b208$6447e3c0$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <3C66F145.9793.A35931@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:45, Douglas Berry wrote:

> One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your 
> task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This 
> accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get 
> those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it 
> worked well in playtesting.

A few days back a friend and I dug out MT and did a few trial combats (in order 
to see if MT would be suitable for our other, 'D&D only', players). We decided 
that it was just a little too lethal, because it's actually very easy to get 
double damage hits, or better. After two people were turned into pink mist by 
laser carbine-8 hits we switched to TNE. TNE has proven quite lethal enough to 
encourage caution and a healthy respect in the players without killing quite so 
many of their PCs outright.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:32:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:32:27 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Chances to hit
In-Reply-To: <a9.22b10c1c.2996e737@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202101129010.14630-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
[Hitting with 1% probability while shooting]
> We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, and it 
> proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost lynched us. We 
> dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for innovation in game 
> design . . . :  )

Last time I played in a cyberpunk campaign, we had no system.
Most of the firefights were either very short range at non-moving targets
(not much of a fight, actually) or consisted of random shooting in the
supposed direction of the supposed enemy. Usually we never even knew how
many enemies there were, who they were, or whether we hit or not.

And yes, this was very fun. B)

Might have been different if somebody had been a professional shooter; My
character was a greek heavy metal singer...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 09:23:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:23:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B88B7C00.24531%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 12:35 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:29 AM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> AFAIK, all four branches of service here in the States use Sir in boot camp
>> not just the Marine Corps.
> 
> Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill
> Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."
> 

Same here.  Calling an NCO 'sir' in the army will get you something like "do
I look like an officer?  I _earn_ my pay."

Tod
--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:23:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:23:20 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEFNCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: 09 February 2002 01:32
>
> Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com> writes:
>
> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.
>
OTOH the time taken to determine this could vary from 1 hour to several
days, meanwhile the PC's are probably being held in custody.  The problems
this could cause them are many, from not making a meeting to losing money on
cargo to making new "friends" in prison.  In addition the Law Level of the
world could cause many problems.  This could be construed as assisting a
suicide, murder through carelessness; not to mention all the problems if
firearms aren't legal.

Generally this is a REALLY nice idea to drop on the PC's

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:29:05 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #142
Message-ID: <F69mRBaYFkuutSgcOrB00003004@hotmail.com>


>>>Your generous.  In military combat, given the rounds expended per
>>>casualty, it should be something like roll d100.  A 01 hits. ;)
>>
>>Ah, but most of the shots we fire aren't actually intended to hit 
>> >>anyone. Thus the shooter shouldn't roll to hit. Rather, those in the 
>> >>me of fire should make luck checks to not get hit every so often.
>
>We tried something like this in one of the Twilight: 2000 playtests, >and 
>it proved so unsatisfying to the playtesters that they almost >lynched us. 
>We dropped it before the playtest was over. So much for >innovation in game 
>design . . . :  )
>
>LKW

The Swedish cyberpunk game Neotech has a mechanic where you calculate fire 
intensity (basically bullets/meter) and then roll that number of D6; every 
die that shows one pip is a hit. This works pretty well for most purposes 
including "stick it up = lose it" and there are optional rules for 
suppressive fire using this mechanic.

The second edition has a table-driven damage rules that models most aspects 
of gun combat well except blow through and blunt trauma from bullets. The 
system models Trauma, Chock, Blood loss and Exhaustion. A character can take 
numerous "flesh wounds" but one decent hit to something vital (especially if 
that something bleeds a lot) and you will need medical care. All in all it 
is a pretty good system and I would probably use it for all my games if the 
second edition rules played faster and required less bookkeeping.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:37:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEFNCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEPEDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

> >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> >
> >GM: He grabs your gun.
> >PC: What!? I jump him!
> >GM: He raises the gun...
> >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> >GM: And blows his brains out.
> >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> >
> >Ethan
>
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


Perhaps, but what if the PC had grabbed the gun?  Fingerprints could easily
give a detective reason to belive a struggle w/ the PC trying to "frame" the
guy for suicide...



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 10:38:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:38:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Chances to hit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10202101129010.14630-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <000001c1b21f$1575b350$2f7de40c@loki>

Mikko,

	Your description of cyberpunk combat is remarkable close to the
truth as describe to me by veterans of a few different wars for a few
different nations.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:31:35 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrotw :
> On 10 Feb 2002, at 0:02, Frank Pitt wrote:
> > GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> >
> > > And the people who were calling for the replacement of
> > > the musket with the longbow as late as the 1780s.
> >
> > I still think crossbows are a much better weapon
> > than firearms.
> >
> > Better penetration,
>
> Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?

I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
majority of bullets do.

> effectively silent,
>
> I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> heard a thing. :)

But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:28:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:28:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16Zs8e-0007yK-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

AB" <ab@rossmack.com> wrote:
> 
> A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
> 
> A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who
> have had no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low
> hit statistics.

Actually, the hit statistics for police and FBI agents shooting is 
only slightly better than for the folks they were firing at.  Taken as 
an overall averare, 1 in 6 is being generous.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:31:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:31:36 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

Not enough NCO's ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 11:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:23:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16Zs3q-0001lu-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> 
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > > The fact that no RPG have ever had a combat system that even
> > > remotely reflects real life combat indicates to me that no one
> > > actually wants such a system (despite the insistence from many
> > > gamers that they want a *realistic* resolution system).  
> 
> Well, there are gamers (such as me) who find combat essentially
> boring. Combat is what you do when the role-playing alone won't get
> you what you wanted.  I would play the characters with the negotiation
> and the detective type skills when I was a teenager, and when it broke
> down to fisticuffs or Gunnery, I would go bake the cookies for
> everyone else.

I know exactly what you mean, I've played different games and 
different types of characters previously, but for the past decade or 
so one combat every 4-10 game sessions is a combat heavy game 
for me. Even back in the old days, I tended to play spies, cat-
burglars, techs, or psychics so combat was never my character's 
forte.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 12:20:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:20:27 -0600
Subject: [TML] Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHAEMHDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1b22d$545ae500$6501a8c0@home.com>

Speaking of real-life data, a useful resource for this discussion can be
found in the Second United States Revision of The Emergency War Surgery NATO
Handbook, which can be found online at:

http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/EWSTOC.html

This has proven very helpful to me when describing injury and wounding to
characters in realistic games of all sorts.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 00:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:31:12 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
In-Reply-To: <20020209061213.WADA319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202101028100.2689-100000@vcsweb.com>

 Personally I play CT and enjoy the openess of the game. Adding and
subtracting from it, what fits my group the best. All with great ease and
a simple set of stats to keep things balanced. Don't understand all of it,
that maybe the fun. However even with all the versions, the large amount
of books and suppliments. Mag articles an the discussion on the list. I
have never felt that I was boxed in by hard core unbreakable rules system.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:14:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] [www] 10 Feb 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <lq6d6ukhj2b6kh12tuf9i2u2pm16kmd9em@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/.  

In this update:

 - John Groth presents us with the design for the Chrysanthemum-class
   Yacht. Read about it in The Shipyard. 

 - Paul Walker gives us an Excel workbook to generate characters according
   to the original Classic Traveller rules. The Computer Connection
   features it under Traveller Programs for DOS and Windows in the
   Information Center. 

 - Larsen E. Whipsnade brings us Wounded Colossus, an outline of an
   alternate Rebellion. Read it in Other Roads. 

 - The new Seventh Edition of 101 Starships is available in The Shipyard. 


Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all
of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may
be temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of
Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to
write for us, making our existence possible.






Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:09:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <200202101608.g1AG86U29919@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "AB" <ab@rossmack.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Aiming and hit location
...
>A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who have had
>no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low hit statistics.
>
>I had occasion a couple of years ago to examine the statistics on incidents
>where firearms were discharged at or by the Victoria (Australia) Police.   I
>can't remember the exact figures so I will use the generalisations I
>remember:  What struck me was that a couple of hundred rounds were fired by
>offenders/ suspects with very few police being hit, whereas the police fired
>just over thirty rounds with a hit ratio of over sixty per cent.

  The GDW folks did an article based on that sort of (US) data back 
in "Challenge" magazine (for which a Reprint is scheduled?), and ISTR
that their summary may have been "games don't play this way, and you'd
complain if they did"?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:33:45 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: USMC WWII
Message-ID: <13d.924c54e.2997fae9@aol.com>

> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
>  > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
>  
>  Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

It was based on the experiences of Marine Raiders eatly in the war, IIRC. The 
subject is discussed completely in the appendix to the 5-volume USMC official 
history of the war -- I don't have access to a copy right now, I'm afraid, 
but I used it when preparing the organizations of the USMC for Command 
Decision.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:30:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:30:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Military Units
In-Reply-To: <B88B7C00.24531%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210003329.009e7c80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210082651.009e7ec0@mindspring.com>

At 01:23 AM 2/10/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 2/10/02 12:35 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Not in my experience as an Army recruit.  We addressed out drills as "Drill
> > Sergeant".  The top drill was addressed as "Senior Drill Sergeant."
> >
>
>Same here.  Calling an NCO 'sir' in the army will get you something like "do
>I look like an officer?  I _earn_ my pay."

One of the hardest things I ever had to do was adjust to *not* calling one 
of my old drills "Drill Sergeant when I encountered him years later in 
civilian life.  Despite the fact that he had put on about forty pounds and 
had a nice beard, I heard that voice and snapped to attention.  He 
remembered me, which either was nice or told volumes about my performance 
in OSUT...

The there was Drill Sergeant Chin, who got off the boat from China knowing 
two words of English:  "up" and "push"  how nice that he found a job that 
let him use them all day...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 16:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:32:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210083129.009fa3d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:31 AM 2/11/02 +1300, you wrote:
> > I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> > heard a thing. :)
>
>But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Ah, he never liked that rabbit anyway.  He won't talk.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:07:03 +1300
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <E16Zs8e-0007yK-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6797C7.24962.461FBB@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 3:28, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> AB" <ab@rossmack.com> wrote:
> > 
> > A couple of points to throw into the melting pot:
> > 
> > A majority of modern firefights are carried out between people who
> > have had no formal firearms training.  This may account for the low
> > hit statistics.
> 
> Actually, the hit statistics for police and FBI agents shooting is 
> only slightly better than for the folks they were firing at.  Taken as 
> an overall averare, 1 in 6 is being generous.

IIRC 1 in 6 would be the law. The crims should probably get 1 in 10. If the 
situation is really bad drop the law to 1 in 10 and the crims to 1 in 20.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:10:15 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C679887.24112.490FC3@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > 
> > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > > (page 44 sidebar).
> > 
> > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> 
> Not enough NCO's ?

But the way the US does things you'd actually need more, because the fire-teams 
should have one each. Maybe not enough experienced sergeants, though.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:08:30 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFHHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C65C89D.27607.13A1974@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C67981E.2823.47722B@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:

> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

I've never seen that before, I must say.
 
> Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
> majority of bullets do.

How much steel would you expect to get a bolt through?
 
> > effectively silent,
> >
> > I bet you the last rabbit I shot with a .30-06 never
> > heard a thing. :)
> 
> But what about the one sitting next to him ?

Who cares? He wasn't armed. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:56:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:56:41 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost> <3C679887.24112.490FC3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C66EC99.D72D7CC7@premier.net>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine
> > > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization
> > > > (page 44 sidebar).
> > >
> > > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> >
> > Not enough NCO's ?
> 
> But the way the US does things you'd actually need more, because the fire-teams
> should have one each. Maybe not enough experienced sergeants, though.

Alternately, if you expect heavy casualties among your NCOs and junior
officers, having extra corporals with some leadership experience (of
their fire-team, anyway) to jump up might be useful.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:57:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:57:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
Message-ID: <F113s8LJzW7iF4HTRtK000066e5@hotmail.com>

From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

     Rupert Boleyn wrote:  According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
Corps used a three fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).  
Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

     "Not enough NCO's ?"


Mr. Pitt,

     Casulties maybe?  USMC units took some frightful losses during several 
landings and still were able to get the job done.  IIRC, one unit at Tarawa 
suffered over 80% casulties the first day and still managed to take their 
objective, an airfield.
     Perhaps the Corp designed units that could "take a licking and keep on 
ticking"?
     I know that US Army TO&Es in WW1 made a US division twice the size of 
divisions belonging to the other combatents on the Western Front.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 21:49:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:49:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F211NdwmkQSCe837g7R0001608b@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double Adventure 
"Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat man's 
questions?

(1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?

     and

(B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, Collace or 
Trexalon?

     and

(Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone 
ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 22:26:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:26:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>

On  Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 02:44:20 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net> typed:
>>>
<<<SNIP>>>
...or Sergeant Major (for NCOs of pay grade E-9, regardless of duty
position).  Unusually tolerant First Sergeants will accept being
addressed (by subordinate NCOs, anyway) as "Top" (short for "Top
Sergeant," an older term for First Sergeant).
<<<

Hopefully I'm not boring too many people by continuing on with this stuff
again.  This should serve as useful background material for any Traveller
campaign that includes military enlisted men.

In the USMC (Uncle Sam's Misguided Children), if he is a Master Sergeant or
Master Gunnery Sergeant, that's what you call him.  Not First Sergeant or
Sergeant Major.  On occasions that are even slightly formal, if the
Sergeant Major is serving in the billet of Battalion, Regiment, or Division
Sergeant Major, it might be a good idea to say it that way.  Tell the
truth, I can't remember whether we have Division Sergeants Major.  There is
only one E-10 in the USMC at any given time, and the name of his rank is
"Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps".

We do, rarely, call First Sergeants "First Shirt", but less often to their
faces, and you'd better have well proven yourself to everyone there to back
up such apparent saltiness if you're going to do it.  Or be an officer of
virtually any rank.

I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
has been dying and is almost gone.

As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment are:
(1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant  (better
outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their face)

(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're going
to address them that way to their face)
(3) just plain "lieutenant" for either 1st or 2nd lieutenants (acceptable
in most situations)
(4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)
(5) old man, for any of the above  (most frequently used for battalion
commander, rare for company commander) and even higher commanders (such
informality should be used with care)

A related piece of USMC slang that I am pretty certain is common in other
services in English-speaking countries, at least.  (My knowledge of other
services on this one comes from reading military history, and I may
misremember or have got the wrong impression.)  Battalion, regiment, and so
on, staff officers are often referred to by their billet, and in short-hand
at that.  For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's
Intelligence Officer and people quite commonly say things like "Give that
to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2." or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2".
Further, they are said to run a "shop".  "This is my shop," or "Find
someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on,"  or "I work in the S-2
shop".

>>>
ObTrav:  The difficulties that PCs can get into by addressing an NCO
according to the protocols of the PCs' former service, rather than those
of the service to which the NCO belongs, are plain enough that I need
not go into further detail.  GT players may consider this entire issue
as covered by the Savoir Faire (Military) skill, possibly with penalties
for personnel from services outside one's own.
<<<

Good ObTrav.  And when you get to the naval services (like the USMC and our
sister service, the Navy  ;-) boy do we go out of our way to use our own
terminology for everything.  It isn't a ceiling, it's an overhead.  Not a
bathroom, but a head.  Not a bunk, but a rack.  Not a door, but a hatch or
hatchway.  Not stairs, but a ladder or ladderwell.  You don't go upstairs
or downstairs, you go topside or below.  The list is very long.  It's like
a bunch of kids coming up with their own secret language for their club.
An example of the other side of the same coin is that most civilians seem
to think **all** Marines are called grunts, but this term is reserved for
infantrymen only.  Civilians use the term grunt as if it is somehow maybe
derogatory, but Marines almost unfailingly use it with pride and respect,
albeit in a perverse way.  In other words, we at least partly hold our
infantry to be the best of the best.  I think the Army has a pretty similar
attitude, but to a lesser degree.

I've been out of the service almost fifteen years now, and my wife and I
have been together about four, and I still every few weeks use some term
that we must stop for me to explain.

--Laning
"When **I** use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it
means just what **I** choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 22:47:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] missing persons report (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0202101447040.13494-100000@rhylanor>

Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:25:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Broken Empath <fadetozero@yahoo.com>
To: tml-digest@travellercentral.com
Subject: missing persons report

does anyone know what happened to David Golden, or his
excellent webpage?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:09:59 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth...

   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
"affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

                Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:18:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:18:34 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C67B69A.13173.BE8BE0@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 18:09, Hal wrote:

> For what it is worth...
> 
>    A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

In NZ it's a derisive term, as is "Lootenant" (we use the British "Leftenant"). 
This came from the military watching way too much Tour of Duty when it aired. 
Calling a platoon sergeant "Zeke" is also an insult, from the same source.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:30:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:30:35 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>; from laning@wizard.net on Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 05:26:34PM -0500
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020210163035.A25223@4dv.net>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 05:26:34PM -0500, Laning wrote:
>
> And when you get to the naval services (like the USMC and our sister
> service, the Navy ;-) boy do we go out of our way to use our own
> terminology for everything.  It isn't a ceiling, it's an overhead.
> Not a bathroom, but a head.  Not a bunk, but a rack.  Not a door,
> but a hatch or hatchway.  Not stairs, but a ladder or ladderwell.
> You don't go upstairs or downstairs, you go topside or below.  The
> list is very long.

It's amusing to watch my mother ask folks where the head is.  She was
never in the Navy (perish the thought!), but my old man was.  People
give her such odd looks:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only difference between Cosmopolitan and Playboy is that Cosmo sells
sex from a Producer perspective and Playboy sells it from a Consumer
perspective.                                      --seen on Slashdot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:39:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:39:23 -0600
Subject: [TML] Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C658FD7.6531.5C4CB6@localhost>
References: <20020208231637.72391.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
 <ML-2.3.1013193227.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020210173720.00de6710@rollanet.org>

At 02:08 AM 2/9/02, you wrote:

> >   Generally speaking, the following rules of thumb
> > apply:
> >
> >   Fire Team:   4 men
> >   Squad:      12 men
>
>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal squad/fire-
>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, including
>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.
>
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

The U.S. Marine Corps uses a 13 man squad based around 3 fire teams of 4 
men each, plus a squad leader.


---------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

"Journalism is the ability to meet the challenge of filling space."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:07:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:07:18 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C67B3F6.1290.B43BE0@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2002, at 17:26, Laning wrote:

> A related piece of USMC slang that I am pretty certain is common in other
> services in English-speaking countries, at least.  (My knowledge of other
> services on this one comes from reading military history, and I may
> misremember or have got the wrong impression.)  Battalion, regiment, and so on,
> staff officers are often referred to by their billet, and in short-hand at that.
>  For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's Intelligence Officer and
> people quite commonly say things like "Give that to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2."
> or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2". Further, they are said to run a "shop". 
> "This is my shop," or "Find someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on," 
> or "I work in the S-2 shop".

True in our army, but we don't have 'S-2', etc. We'd call him the "Battalion 
Intelligence Officer" or "Int Officer". Such a person might introduce 
themselves "I'm Intelligence" in an informal (but working) environment. Those 
working in the Bn Int Section (run by a sergeant, with a corporal or two and as 
many privates as they find useful/can get) are known as 'Int Ops' (which most 
of us found quite amusing as it makes you sound like some sort of James Bond or 
CIA type, which we weren't).

> An example of
> the other side of the same coin is that most civilians seem to think **all**
> Marines are called grunts, but this term is reserved for infantrymen only. 
> Civilians use the term grunt as if it is somehow maybe derogatory, but Marines
> almost unfailingly use it with pride and respect, albeit in a perverse way.  In
> other words, we at least partly hold our infantry to be the best of the best.  I
> think the Army has a pretty similar attitude, but to a lesser degree.

Over here the infantry always used the term with pride. Other corps sometimes 
did not. This has been known to cause friction.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:26:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:26:59 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210181011.00a15a50@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   Because this list has been helpful to me in the past when it came to 
portraying the military for my own campaigns.  The following stories may 
hopefully help other GM's for their own amusement and games...

1) once upon a time, a buddy of mine served in the US Army in an artillery 
unit.  During bouts of boredom, he and his buddy hanging around in the 
barracks would say something to the tune of "Attitude check" to which the 
other would respond with an expressive expletive " <censored> you".  During 
periods of boredom, it would be a bored expletive.  During times of stress, 
it would be an angry or mocking expletive.  In any event, this tradition 
continued for a time where one person said Attitude check, and three or 
four would respond.  Soon, this fine tradition spread to the extent that 
one would yell it, and the entire barracks who heard it would 
respond.  This fine tradition was squelched one day, when one wise joker 
decided, while outside of the barracks, to yell "Attitude Check" as he 
observed an officer and a woman walking past the open window barracks.  The 
nearly automatic response to that phrase nearly raised the roof.  As it was 
described to me - it also raised the eyebrows of the passing officer.  The 
Officer entered the barracks and dispensed justice as only an irate officer 
could...

2) not for the faint of heart - the following story was related to me as 
related to me by an ex-officer.  It is of a manner that helps explain why 
some nations are not too happy to host American soldiers in bases near 
their population centers.  Read on only if such a story would not offend you.

Spoiler space



Spoiler space


If you are reading this - it means that you really did want to find out how 
one enlisted individual disgraced the US uniform.  As I do not know the 
names of those involved, nor am I indicating where this occurred, you can 
take this as a "urban myth".  Knowing the individual who related this to me 
as having been stationed at the base where it happened, I do not doubt it...

The military takes pains to insure that their personnel are tested for 
STD's on a regular basis.  If memory serves me correctly, my buddy 
indicated every 6 months.  One child brought in for examination on an 
unrelated illness, was discovered to have contracted a relatively rare form 
of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father was 
tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the same 
strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.  When the man was detained 
for questioning, he called his wife, also enlisted in the Army at this base 
and serving in the same unit - attempted to go AWOL with their remaining 
child.  Speculation from my buddy was that the man did end up in a federal 
prison for this incident, but he didn't know as he had separated from 
service before he could find out.

If you have a story you'd like to share, knowing that others might archive 
such a story for later use in their campaigns - feel free ;)

                            Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:51:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:51:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
References: <3C65962C.F70E7F99@premier.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020210174937.00de3d90@rollanet.org>

At 04:15 PM 2/9/02, you wrote:

> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
>
>Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
>
>
>--

Try this link. This guy has done a lot of research into WWII combat formations.

http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/UnitedStates/united_states_marines.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 23:58:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Write)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:58:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #136
In-Reply-To: <200202080422.g184MkN22261@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020210235835.93454.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>

Is that why you always re-up Herr General? Just to
have a "long wondrous career exploring the galaxy,
fending off evil, and basking in glorious ports-o-call
with wine, women, and song." 

I seem to remember the long arduous hours spent
pressing the sheets, working in the motor pool,
training LTs to not get us killed and seeing some
bastard senior NCO or O's face on every site reticle I
viewed. Maybe, just maybe, this poor slob is better
suited to do the time for his crime, whether it's a
shotgun wedding or not forfeiting his bail, what ever!
Or perhaps maybe he just needs to go to yahoo groups:
reaversdeep and join the Regency Reserve Quarentine
Star Ship Robert Goodwin... Crew Shares still
available...

Dave

> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:04:20 -0800
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help Wanted
> 
> Dear Mr. Lickspttle,
> 
> In regards to your request and excellent resume, I
can unburden you from your hackneyed dirt-ball
existence to a long wondrous career exploring the
galaxy, fending off evil, and basking in glorious
ports-o-call with wine, women, and song.
> 
> Just enlist, the General's looking for a few good
men.
> 
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:13:46 -0800 "n2sami"
> <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> > Henry J. Lickspittle
> > Deck Cleaner Extraordinaire
> > 
> > Seeking working passage to anywhere. Position
considered necessary at soonest expediency. Have
well-built aspiration to depart this hackneyed
dirt-ball ahead of subsequent twoday. Arraignments are
of utmost plasticity. I await you munificent proffer
of employment at the foundation of mechanical
staircase three.
> > 
> > 
> Turokan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:23:23 +0000
Subject: [TML] 3 section platoons
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211001934.02c83740@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>

Looks like the USMC simply broke up the separate BAR section/ squad and 
transferred the BAR down to sections/ squads, with a third fireteam 
occupying the old "fire support" role, while the other 2 fireteams can 
pepper pot to the objective.

Makes sense given the situations they fought in (close terrain, poor 
platoon co-ordination etc.), the squad could act as a "mini-platoon" in 
their own fight.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:45:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:45:59 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
 <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210164516.009e9960@mindspring.com>

At 06:09 PM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>For what it is worth...
>
>   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".


We used that all the time, to the officer's face.  It wasn't considered 
derogatory in the least.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:57:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:57:00 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #146
Message-ID: <127.bd4e852.299870dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2002 5:50:28 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?
> 
It was built in the shipyeards of Glisten in 874

As for cost
"It cost a great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and is expensive 
to maintain"

Hope that helps



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:56:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:56:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <20020210.195638.-137223.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:49:56 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double 
> Adventure 
> "Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat 
> man's 
> questions?

I'll try (quickly scans through Double Adventure 6)

> 
> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?

It was built in 874. 

> 
>      and
> 
> (B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, 
> Collace or 
> Trexalon?

Actually, it was built at the shipyard in Glisten.

> 
>      and
> 
> (Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has 
> anyone 
> ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?

I don't see cost mentioned anywhere, just the following - "It cost a
great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and it is expensive to
maintain, but the Thearchy has the tithe-taxes of an entire world to draw
upon."

> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: 
> http://mobile.msn.com
> 

Hope that helps.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 00:48:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:48:25 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210181011.00a15a50@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
 <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210164734.009e6570@mindspring.com>

At 06:26 PM 2/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The military takes pains to insure that their personnel are tested for 
>STD's on a regular basis.  If memory serves me correctly, my buddy 
>indicated every 6 months.  One child brought in for examination on an 
>unrelated illness, was discovered to have contracted a relatively rare 
>form of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father 
>was tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the 
>same strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.  When the man was 
>detained for questioning, he called his wife, also enlisted in the Army at 
>this base and serving in the same unit - attempted to go AWOL with their 
>remaining child.  Speculation from my buddy was that the man did end up in 
>a federal prison for this incident, but he didn't know as he had separated 
>from service before he could find out.

I don't know when this was alleged to have occurred, but I never underwent 
regular STD testing.. just random drug tests.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 01:47:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:47:14 +1100
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <20020207150316.69688.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6722A2.5060705@yarranet.net.au>

Gonzalez wrote:

> Has anyone tried running their Traveller Universe in
> systems other than the GDW classics or GURPS.
> 
> Say like the FUZION System?

I used interlock for a little while in the early 90's (about the same time a friend 
ran Call of Traveller) then switched to TNE when it came out because it was pretty 
close. As time went on I became dissatisfied with TNE and then I discovered Fudge.

I use Fudge for characters and their skill use.

For equipment (other than weapons which I worked up some basic conversions for) and 
worlds I use Traveller stats from the various incarnations and, you guessed it, fudge 
the interactions with the characters when necessary, taking notes as I go if I think 
it might pop up again.

Most of the time things can be used as is without any conversion and the game runs 
really smoothly with Fudges elegant resolution system.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 01:02:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:02:26 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20210.170226.9j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Just thought that you'd like to know that your post was dated Jan 3,
1980.... I think you need to check that date/time settings on your
computer.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 02:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:47:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <200202110246.g1B2kFU12461@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Information, please:  Divine Intervention
...
>(Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone 
>ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?

  No? Unknown; HG2 would be simple enough, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 03:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:24:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #138
In-Reply-To: <3C67981E.2823.47722B@localhost>
Message-ID: <B88C7958.2478E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 1:08 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2002, at 0:31, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
>> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
>> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.
> 
> I've never seen that before, I must say.

I'd like to see this as well.
> 
>> Crossbows also penetrate Kevlar and steel armour better than the
>> majority of bullets do.
> 
> How much steel would you expect to get a bolt through?

Cross bows, and conventional bows for that matter, tipped with broadhead or
pointed steel tips will penetrate most kevlar vests.  However, so will just
about every rifle caliber round.  Kevlar vests will stop many pistol rounds.
Being able to penetrate a kevlar vest is not saying much. In the case of
most of these vest, a simple ice pick driven by hand can do it, or an
adequately sharp knife.  Broadhead arrows cut the fibers, pointed tips
penetrate the weave.  high velocity bullets can shear the kevlar thread.

As far as steel armor, that depends what we are talking about. Medievil
plate armor is not even a challenge for most modern firearms.  Modern steel
armor like trauma plated for ballistic vests can stop a .30 caliber armor
piercing bullet.  An arrow won't even scratch it.  Of course these modern
armor trauma plates can weight 10+ lbs each.

As far as penetration of a modern steel helmet, this is again fairly easy.
The modern helmet is primarily designed to to fragmentation wounds, not
bullets.  A crossbow can penetrate a steel helmet, but a 5.56x45mm (.223)
assault rifle with current ammunition (M855) can do it at 500 meters.
> 
>>> effectively silent,

I have shot a few crossbows in my time (Barnetts usually) and they are
quiet, not silent.  If you need a silent killer, I recommend a subsonic
round with a silencer.  I have built and fired a few silenced guns that made
less noise than striking a wooden match.

The crossbow is an interesting weapon.  In terms of accuracy and
effectiveness, it's day is past.  An the only advantage it had over the bow
is that it requires not lengthy training.

Yes, it can be used to kill effectively.  So can a rock. If it was really
such an efficient weapon, we would see them in the arsenals of the worlds
elite forces.

Tod


--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 04:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:38:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: GURPS TRAVELLER HIGH GUARD
In-Reply-To: <20210.170226.9j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.19800103163049.00a18c90@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020210233626.00a1d100@mail.buffnet.net>

At 05:02 PM 02/10/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Just thought that you'd like to know that your post was dated Jan 3,
>1980.... I think you need to check that date/time settings on your
>computer.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Hello Leonard,
   It was pointed out to me by someone else, so the error was 
fixed.  Although off topic - I downloaded a copy of Internet Explorer 
version 6 to upgrade for my earlier windows98 version.  It whacked a few 
things out of line for my operating system (including making my FREECELL 
game).  It caused my system date to be changed as well for some odd 
reason.  But I have since fixed it.  thanks for bringing it to my 
attention   :)

                 Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb  9 17:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:52:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Grote landgrab by the Esteemed L. Whipsnade
Message-ID: <3C6561D4.A1FA3C6C@mindspring.com>

Dear Larsen, having planned on forcing....er, encouraging the PC's to
carry a troublesome passenger to Grote/Glisten, I looked to see if
someone had done my work for me. I saw your name at the  Landgrab. Since
you seem to be done with WoCo, could you kindly post your Grote data?
;)  If you'd like I can help put it into web ready form using Mr. Glenns
format. No real hurry, I don't expect them to make it there for a few
weeks as I've engaged them in a dirty little war on Marastan/Glisten. I
love balkanized worlds. And I just found out they might get in trouble
over the Imperial reserve on Marastan. Ooooh....Trouble. :)

Jubal Harshaw to Mike. We'll sucker him into doing the work and make him
like it.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The first human being who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the
creator of civilization.
              -Sigmund Freud





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:05:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Divine Intervention
References: <F211NdwmkQSCe837g7R0001608b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C675118.59C895DF@mindspring.com>

The Palace was built at Glisten in 874. As the landgrab owner I'm going to give
the job to the Bilstein Yards. ( Canon just says "the shipyard at Glisten in
874, from an order by the then current Thearch, Lenebid) It says it cost a great
deal but doesn't mention a figure.

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      Would any one with access to that wonderfully loopy CT Double Adventure
> "Divine Intervention" be kind enough to answer a grey-headed, fat man's
> questions?
>
> (1)  What year was the Theocrat's floating palace constructed?
>
>      and
>
> (B)  Which of the District 268 industrialized worlds did the job, Collace or
> Trexalon?
>
>      and
>
> (Finally)  Is the cost of the project mentioned anywhere?  Or has anyone
> ever built the Palace using HG2 or FF&S or whatever?
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I'm just trying to get in, it's not like I'm running for Jesus.
                               -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:06:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:06:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F228jvbHdei8MwrmOwe000196ff@hotmail.com>

From: knightsky@juno.com

     "It was built in 874."

     "Actually, it was built at the shipyard in Glisten."

     "I don't see cost mentioned anywhere, just the following - "It cost a 
great deal to construct and transport to Pavabid, and it is expensive to 
maintain, but the Thearchy has the tithe-taxes of an entire world to draw 
upon."


Sir,

     Thank you very much for so quickly answering my plea for help.  
Unfortunately, the date of construction is a wee bit too far in the "past" 
for my uses.
     My thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:03:33 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #146
Message-ID: <F225C5EtrUVYKkpLTkU00016a55@hotmail.com>

From: SinEater40K@aol.com

     "It was built in the shipyeards of Glisten in 874."


Sir,

     Thank you for kindly supplying me with the information I desired.  
Alas, the construction date is too far in the "past" for the use I had in 
mind.  (wahhhh.)

     "Hope that helps."

     It most certainly does.  My thanks again.



     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 05:45:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:45:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <F970bc1u6z46lsEGR4R0000418a@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The Palace was built at Glisten in 874. As the landgrab owner I'm 
going to give the job to the Bilstein Yards. ( Canon just says "the shipyard 
at Glisten in 874, from an order by the then current Thearch, Lenebid) It 
says it cost a great deal but doesn't mention a figure."


Mr. Gosling,

     Thank you for the information regarding the Thearch's Palace on 
Pavabid.  Unfortunately, the construction date is too far in the "past" for 
the purpose I had in mind.
     With regards to my Grote Landgrab, most of the information already 
exists and only needs to be whipped into "landgrab" shape.  I had been 
wrestling with trying to "massage" my take on Grote to fit canon as 
expressed in GURPS BtC, but have recently given up on that quest.  My Grote 
already fits CT, MT, and TNE canon, so GURPS can go pound sand.
     I must admit that I had shelved the project indefinitely after buying 
and reading BtC early last year.  However, my perusal of the JTAS boards has 
convinced me that my opinion of BtC is shared by a healthy majority of 
Travellers.  If my Grote doesn't exactly "fit" BtC canon, so be it.  My 
version of Grote is better than BtC's version anyway.
     Your idea about having your PCs drop off a troublesome fellow at Grote 
is a good one.  Since it's founding, Grote has always been a place where 
troublesome people end up.  Although settled early in the Marches history, 
Grote didn't become part of the Imperium until after the Third Frontier War 
and then only because it no longer had any real choice in the matter.  The 
Sword Worlds had seen to that.
     Look at Grote's astrographinc position in the Marches.  Grote is 
positioned at the juncture of four subsectors, two of which are not part of 
the Imperium.  The system is also on the Spinward Main, but only an isolated 
spur of that main.  Jump1 traffic passes along the Main one parsec to 
spinward of Grote.  The system also hosts a class "A" starport, the only one 
for several parsecs in any direction.  All of these little perculiarities 
helped me make Grote into the center of all of my Spinward Marches 
campaigns.
     Drop me a line with any specific questions and I'll type out some 
answers.  That should help you keep things going while I slap the Landgrab 
into shape.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 06:52:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 01:52:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>

Mr Glenn and Mr. Boleyn:  I was trying to say that **recruits** in boot
camp have to call their Drill Instructors and--everyone else--Sir.  After
graduation from boot camp and heading off to start training for their MOS,
things go to normal.  Any private out of boot camp ever called me Sir got a
swift lesson in military discipline.  I apologize for not explaining myself
more clearly earlier.  :->

The idea behind doing this in boot camp is that officers have better things
to do than parade around for the purpose of recruits getting to Sir them
and salute them.  Each recruit "platoon" was commanded by a Senior Drill
Instructor (a staff NCO billet) and assisted by three to five other drill
instructors (NCOs), but there was only one officer per four "platoons".
Starting out with 70+ recruits per "platoon", four "platoons" per series,
and each series commanded by one lieutenant, the series commander was
stretched pretty thin.  Drill instructors very frequently reemphasized the
point to their recruits that this was just during boot camp and that if the
recruit ever graduated from boot camp, they should **only** use Sir and
saluting for officers.

As far as officers not getting seen much by recruits, I think the reasons
were two-fold.

Sort of the good-cop-bad-cop thing, where recruits are taught to think of
officers as the remote but beloved "Daddy" figure.  There's a term for this
command style, but I can't remember it.  It's very widespread in the
military.  If you're a Star Trek fan, they tried to show Captain Picard
using this style.


The second reason for the scarce visibility of officers was that every time
there's a scandal over some recruit being mistreated and the recruit's
mommy writes a letter to their congressman, it's a lot easier to be vague
about what really happened if there was no officer on the scene.  If you're
not there, you can't be blamed.  If an officer is present for something
that sounds dubious, it causes more concern and interest among outside
parties than if it was only NCOs.  Several anecdotes supporting this spring
quickly to mind.  There was the time as a recruit that I was on fire watch
in the wee hours and my mate on fire watch totally screwed up and then hid,
leaving me to take the blame for his screw up.  The DI who was with us
overnight woke up, stormed in, grabbed me as the only visible fire watch
and therefore the one to blame and was so ticked off that he not only did
his best to terrorize me but actually lost it a little and judo-tripped me
to the deck and then punched my jaw while I was down (not a difficult
assault to achieve when I started out standing at attention).  GASP!
Eeegads, you say, a DI actually struck one of his recruits!  Prior to
roughly the end of the Viet Nam War, nobody would think twice.  In 1980, it
was a Very Big Deal.  The DI in question reported himself to his Senior DI
first thing the next morning.  While the platoon was getting dressed, the
Senior summoned me to his little office, did his best to put me at ease and
gave me every opportunity to accuse the DI of assault.  I didn't really see
any point to it.  The DI didn't even hurt me, he wasn't a time bomb about
to explode more seriously on someone else or anything, and he was a pretty
damned good DI.  And he had a Bronze Star with "V", so you know he's a hell
of a field Marine.  The citation involved being surrounded, being out of
ammo, hours of hand-to-hand combat, and machine gun nests.  He said they
spent most of the night throwing the grenades that landed at their feet
back down at the NVA, throwing rocks at NVA, and trying to fool the NVA
into thinking they still had machine gun and rifle ammo.  He taught us that
an e-tool is usually your best choice for a melee weapon, and you could
tell it was experience not theory.  He was Force Recon, btw.  It would have
been a loss to the Corps to have to bust him, throw him in the brig for
assault, and take his stripes away.  The fallout was that the DI in
question was concealed a few feet away during this interview and heard
every word as I completely refused to rat him out.  In fact I said,
"Whatever happened, I had it coming", and by then the DI had already
learned that it was the other fire watch who'd screwed up, not me.  For the
rest of boot camp, his attitude towards me changed from "damned college
kid" to "I know he's no weasel".  He really started liking me when we got
to our rapelling training and I rapelled with such fiendish abandon that it
actually scared the DIs, plus when we got to pugil sticks, I took out my
opponent in about two seconds.  The icing on the cake was that his knuckles
were bruised and swollen for two weeks after punching me and my jaw was
fine by noon chow time.  We both got a laugh out of that.  On graduation
day he asked me if my jaw was made of lead or something.  Um, anyway I'm
babbling again.  If an officer had been present for any part of that
incident, the whole molehill would have turned into a Matterhorn.  Who
needs it.


My attitude is don't worry too much about the "lack of officer supervision"
I described.  IMHO, it's okay, because you can usually be pretty safe
entrusting a Marine corporal, sergeant, or staff NCO with a lot more
responsibility than the Army usually seems to be comfortable with giving
their NCOs and senior sergeants.  Partly because the discipline is stronger
so you're more sure we'll follow doctrine, and partly because rank comes
slower in the Marine Corps so our guys tend to have more experience and
training by the time they reach a given rank.  Plus, as mentioned in my
earlier post, selection standards for IQ and education are a bit higher, so
you theoretically have better starting material.  Oh, another big factor.
There were so many abuse scandals in the 1950s and 1960s that the USMC has
long since put into place very thorough and detailed procedures and
doctrine to guide drill instructors through just about every conceivable
situation safely, and the DIs themselves have to submit tons of
documentation every day to monitor things.  Then, if someone screws up and
it turns out a DI didn't follow doctrine in an incident, you blame the DI,
not doctrine and not an officer.  Take away a stripe and give him some
administrative punishment.  DI's can very easily get the stripe back when
they are returned to duty two to four weeks later.  (No faster place to
lose or gain rank than the drill field, it's nothing like the Fleet.)  If
it turns out the DI really did a big screw up then you punish him really
big, instead of a hand slap.  When they get hand slaps, the documentation
in the DI's record book tends to get lost when they transfer from the drill
field.  It isn't a blot on their career when that happens.  If an officer
is found involved in an incident, even a small one, it isn't nearly so
easily forgotten.  You've just ended the officer's career and wasted all
the training invested in him.

I'm not surprised that attitudes are different in other countries, because
the U.S. has earned a reputation as most litigious society in the world, so
we're more likely to develop this sort of doublethink approach to things.
"The bull____ piles up so fast and deep over here, you need wings to keep
from drowning."  I'm not saying we do things better in the USMC.  I'm
saying we have a somewhat different situation, so we handle it differently.
 The US Army doesn't handle it the same as way we do either, because their
circumstances also aren't the same.  Each country and service does things
somewhat differently.  I get the impression that the British Royal Marines,
for instance, are a lot less namby-pamby with recruit training than we are,
and more focused and intense at the same time.  Any Royal Marines on the
list who care to speak up?

ObTrav:  This should be good material to inspire referees with minor plot
ideas and background detail.  Also for players with no military experience
to flesh out their characters and role play a military character more
convincingly.  Heck, with a little preparation and some good roleplaying,
you could run a campaign for months with the characters staying in boot
camp and learning their little lessons and having incidents.  You just need
players crazy enough.  They'd probably build a team bond like no other
group of adventurers you've ever seen.

--Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML   (Proud to have made
sergeant (E-5) in **only** five years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were
two years when not one single person in my entire MOS made corporal.  In
retrospect, if I'd done a stint on the drill field I might have moved
faster.  It probably would have made a better Marine of me, too.)
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:01:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211070347.ILAK319.dorsey@link>

US Army slang, not USMC.  :->

I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address his
lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part humor
part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
part serious>
--Laning

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 18:09:59 -0500, Hal <hal@buffnet.net> typed:
>>>
For what it is worth...

   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an 
"affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:30:03 -0500
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re:  Military
 Units)
In-Reply-To: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>

Mr. Boleyn, I would have to look at references to see the exact
before-and-after of MG strengths for an infantry battalion.  I think it
probably went up for MGs proper per battalion, but of course we lost those
nifty BARs (a blessing or a curse, depending on who you talk to).  Since
BARs are properly considered automatic rifles and not MGs, this makes sense
in its own way.  The major reason for the change seems to have been
standardization of ammo types, since we were transitioning to the M-16
rifle at about the same time, and supplying different ammunition all the
way down to each individual fire team level genuinely is a problem to be
avoided.  The new solution was to say that all Marines should keep their
M-16s switched to semi-automatic except for the one who was designated the
Automatic Rifleman, who keeps his M-16 switched to full auto.  The same
name that the BAR man had before, IIRC.

If you set the politics of these kinds of decisions aside, it is of course
ludicrous to claim that an "automatic rifleman" with an M-16 has anything
like the range, penetration, and damage of a BAR.  On the gripping hand, a
rifle squad often finds itself with the luxury of an M-60 machine gun or
two attached after this reorganization, and an M-60 is much more powerful
than a BAR.  The .50 cal machine guns are also more plentiful in the USMC
than in most countries/services, and if you have one or some of these
attached to your platoon, that's pretty sweet.  These things have
ridiculous range and power, and can make a huge difference.  They're also
damned heavy and bulky and require lots of cleaning maintenance and lots of
heavy ammo.  Therefore, it isn't practicable to put them on the TO&E for
lower level units unless they have everyone mounted in vehicles.

Squads still spend a lot of time with no MG attached at all though, and
they have long since learned how to be combat effective without one.  I
think that's a Good Thing, since platoon leaders and company commanders get
much more flexible control out of their MG assets this way and are able to
redistribute them in the most efficient manner for each task.  The squads
without MGs are that much more mobile and agile for not having the burden.
They also tend to use all the capabilities they **do** have and use them
well, rather than make every squad psychologically dependent on having a MG
in order to be a significant unit on the battlefield.


I know that the USMC has reorganized this yet again in recent years, but
I'm not sure of the exact TO&E.  My search of the official USMC Web site
didn't turn this info up before I lost patience.  I believe we don't even
have three fire teams per squad any longer, eek!  I'm not sure about the
exact place in the TO&E of the "new" MG (name escapes me...oh yeah the SAW
or Squad Automatic Weapon) that fires the same round as the M-16, but I
think they were planning to deploy one with each fire team back at the time
I left the service.  I applaud the idea of getting heavier firepower
available at the fire team level, but I am afraid they've confused rate of
fire for weight of fire--an unfortunately increasingly widespread way of
looking at things for decades now.  Frank Chadwick's combat rules always
seemed to take that point of view also, which is my major reason for not
being fond of most of his stuff.  I remember talking to him about this
topic years ago at a con, and he was very closed to any other viewpoint.
We agreed to disagree, or at least he agreed I had a right to be stupid,
lol.  But I do like 'Striker', for the most part, and I understand that was
largely his work(?)  BTW, rate of fire basically means how many bullets per
minute, and weight of fire the total weight of the bullets fired in a
minute.  This is a controversial topic at least in some circles, but it's
pretty widely accepted among analysts to assume that there is no difference
between firing a bunch of lighter bullets (typically less stopping/killing
power) and firing a smaller bunch of heavier bullets (typically more
stopping/killing power), as long as the total weight of the bullets fired
during a period of time adds up to the same thing.  And as long as the
target is actually within range of both.  Many analysts can even "prove"
this is true with empirical data.  Many of these same analysts have never
fired a rifle nor worn a military uniform, too.  They to like reducing
equations and eliminating as many variables as possible for its own sake,
IMO.  Needless to say, I differ with this school of thought and think there
is a difference between quality and quantity that is being ignored.  The
controversy simmers on.


Further, an ObTrav about rate of fire vs. weight of fire:  IMTU, the gauss
rifle does 2D damage and gauss pistol does 1D damage.  I'd have to look
again to see whether I've boosted their penetration, which is very
possible.  The projectiles may be moving at extremely high velocity, but
they are also extremely light weight and almost certainly have a lot of
spin for stability too.  I am unimpressed by "blow through" unless the
projectile strikes bone or something.  But you can carry a lot more gauss
ammo than gunpowder ammo, and get more opportunities at group hits for
autofire as a consequence of that.  I nick laser weapons' damage way down
from what is canon, too.  I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
fire, if you know what you're doing.  Gauss, laser, and plasma/fusion
weapons still have their much longer direct-fire range than other things,
even if they cannot fire in the indirect role.  Depending on the opponent,
there may be a morale effect for having to face exotic, high-tech weapons
like lasers and such.  Much the way police carry shotguns partly because of
how it deflates the morale of any criminals or other people they confront.

--Laning
"There was two-an'-thirty Sergeants,
  There was Corp'rals, forty-one
There was just nine 'undred rank an' file
  To swear to a touch o' sun"
-Rudyard Kipling, 'The Shut-Eye Sentry'
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On 10 Feb 2002 at 22:10:15 +1300, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
typed:
>>>
Sounds like an excuse to under-equip the marines when it came to MGs.
<<<
In response to my post from 10 Feb 2002 at 3:39, in part:
> We Marines don't (or didn't, anyway) have any machine guns that were part
> of a fire team or squad.  Instead, the medium machine guns are in one
> weapons platoon per company, and the heavy machine guns belong to one
> weapons company per battalion.  The platoon leader/company
> commander/battalion commander doles out his machine gun teams to his
> subunits as he sees fit, and the machine gun teams are said to be
> "attached" to the squad or whoever they are on loan to.  They spend a
great deal
> of their lives "attached" to someone else



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 07:36:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:36:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net>

No doubt this has been brought up before.

I had a look at the GDPs and trade volumes of various real-world Earth
nations to get a figure for Earth's "Gross World Product".  I arrived
at a GWP of 50 trillion US dollars.  Now, Earth is a TL 7 world, and
so by the tables should have a per-capita GWP of 1430 Cr.  This would
produce a GWP of 8.9 TCr.  Hence I conclude that an Imperial Credit
should be roughly the equivalent of 5 US dollars.  Which is what I
thought it was anyway :)  Good to see that it makes sense.

Now, one interesting thing is the huge range of regional GDPs over
various Earth nations.  This is no doubt be exacerbated by being
balkanised.  Even so, it is not at all hard to imagine that one tech
level C world might have 5 or even 10 times the GWP of another.  Even
within a single non-balkanised world, some regions might be much
poorer than others.

I imagine that the figures in Far Trader are for the averages, with
some worlds of a given tech level richer, and others poorer.  This
could be interesting for merchant characters who go to a TL C world
expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
have done some basic research first :/

BTW, if the Earth as a whole is TL 7, with associated per-capita
product as per Far Trader, then the US has a per-capita output
somewhere between GURPS tech levels 10 and 11 (classic TL D)
;^)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 10 13:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:12:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
Message-ID: <000201c1b2d2$6f367240$11111111@horace>

> One of the few good rules in T4 was the increased damage rule.  Make your
> task roll by 6, do double damage.  Make it by 9, triple damage.  This
> accurately portrayed the combination of skill and luck necessary to get
> those first-round kills.  We used it in ACQ for that very reason, and it
> worked well in playtesting.

Warhammer Fantasy Role Play has a similar rule:  All damage is rolled with a
d6.  Roll a six and you get to roll again to hit.  Hit again and you get to
roll damage again.

After that second to hit roll every time you roll a six you get to roll
damage again without needing the to-hit roll.  So there is theoretically no
upper limit (although practically the best I ever saw was four sixes in a
row.)  Thus the lowliest peasant can get lucky and kill the most fearsome
warrior.

Even if you are super-competent it makes you think twice before going into
combat.

Regards.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:14:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88CBD61.24828%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 10:52 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Mr Glenn and Mr. Boleyn:  I was trying to say that **recruits** in boot
> camp have to call their Drill Instructors and--everyone else--Sir.  After
> graduation from boot camp and heading off to start training for their MOS,
> things go to normal.  Any private out of boot camp ever called me Sir got a
> swift lesson in military discipline.  I apologize for not explaining myself
> more clearly earlier.  :->

IIRC, that's a marine thing. Like Doug B (who I think you mean, not Mr.
Boleyn), I was in the army.  While in boot camp, the instructors were
referred to as 'drill sergeant', as in "Yes Drill, Sergeant!", of course, in
private we referred to our DI as 'squat monkey'. A fine gentleman, who I
later met after I got my bar. It was very weird to have him call me 'sir'.

Tod

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:29:39 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020210222856.GEVY319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6780F3.BFAA8857@attbi.com>



Laning wrote:

> I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
> has been dying and is almost gone.

Depends, I never heard Gunner used in conjunction with Marine WO's
in the USN Gunner is the title for a Gunners mate's WO, as is Bosun
the the title for Boatswain's Mates WO, and I have know several of
both.

> (4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
> regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)

This is what I get for answering things in reverse order. Also note
skipper is not uncommon way to refer to Any boats commander.


-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:22:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:22:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020210175938.00a34170@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3C677F33.33D1CAEE@attbi.com>



Hal wrote:
> 
> For what it is worth...
> 
>    A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an
> "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".

Hey, you guys also forgot that it's not uncommon in Marines to
refer to the company comander as Skipper. But, then again he 
is a Capt. how should of had his shiny rubbed off by then.

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 08:37:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:37:22 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re:
 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Military Units)
In-Reply-To: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88CC2C2.24840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/10/02 11:30 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>
> 
> Further, an ObTrav about rate of fire vs. weight of fire:  IMTU, the gauss
> rifle does 2D damage and gauss pistol does 1D damage.  I'd have to look
> again to see whether I've boosted their penetration, which is very
> possible.  The projectiles may be moving at extremely high velocity, but
> they are also extremely light weight and almost certainly have a lot of
> spin for stability too.  I am unimpressed by "blow through" unless the
> projectile strikes bone or something.

One of the things to remember about gauss weapon is that there is more to
consider than just energy.  Once a projectile exceeds 1450 m/s (the speed of
sound in tissue) normally elastic tissues start to behave more like solids.
Muscle strikes produce shallow traumatic wounds, and organs tend to
'shatter'.  Studies by SIPRI (see 'Antipersonnel Weapons', 1977) suggest
that should these type of weapons be employed, totally new techniques of
wound repair and debridement may need to be developed. Further, assuming
that gauss round are long (high sectional density, like flechettes), there
is a likelihood that they will bend or hook, increasing retardation rate
(Mach's equation) transferring their energy much more rapidly than
conventional projectiles. Also, like flechette, their path through tissue
will probably be near random, unlike current FMC ammunition, which tends to
follow a more linear path, even if it tumbles on transitting media.


> But you can carry a lot more gauss
> ammo than gunpowder ammo, and get more opportunities at group hits for
> autofire as a consequence of that.

I assume that gauss weapons normal mode of fire would be burst.  Three to
five rounds fired at a rat of 2000-2500 rounds per minute.  This will
produce the likeliest probability when firing at point target with the least
ammunition (See project SALVO).

> I nick laser weapons' damage way down
> from what is canon, too.  I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
> fire, if you know what you're doing.  Gauss, laser, and plasma/fusion
> weapons still have their much longer direct-fire range than other things,
> even if they cannot fire in the indirect role.

Likely gauss and laser weapons will be limited to an effective range of 300
meters or so anyway.  Studies show that the likelihood of SEEING a target
(enemy soldier) at 300 meters is only about 10%, and drops to effectively 0
at 500 meters.  In a sense, lasers will be no more effective than more
conventional weapons for this reason.  An assuming a single shot burst of
light energy when firing, they may have a lower hit rate than more
conventional weapons because the don't have the multi-round burst to
compensate for aiming error,  Even the fact that have no ballistic arc makes
little difference. At combat ranges, this has almost no effect.  The zero-G
environment seems to be the only justification for laser small arms. True,
the Traveller laser rifle does damage, but it is easily defeated by thing
like prismatic aerosols.

The plasma and fusion guns are another matter, as they have area effect, and
are really more like grenade launchers with more direct fire capability

> Depending on the opponent,
> there may be a morale effect for having to face exotic, high-tech weapons
> like lasers and such.  Much the way police carry shotguns partly because of
> how it deflates the morale of any criminals or other people they confront.

Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.
My particular favorite is the TeleShot silent shotgun shell.

Tod 

--
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:28:08 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Justin Bunnell wrote :-
> 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?

No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
(great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
for hours, potentially.

The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even then).

> 3) Hits to limbs.  Should a rifle hit to the arm make that arm useless
> or simply painful?  A shot through the thigh does what to your ability
> to leap tall buildings in a single bound?

High velocity missile impacts shatter bone, and shear vessels.
Incapacitation would be usual ; if you're "lucky", there'll only be a lot
of pain and visible bleeding.

> 4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a
> cricitcal success. How well does clotting stop non-major artery
> hits anyway?
Arterial bleeding very rarely stops spontaneously, so this is appropriate.
The mechanism is vessel spasm rather than clotting.
Direct pressure should be applied to enable clotting (first aid),
or vessel repair (surgery).

The use of ultrasound to effect coagulation is a current research topic.

> 5) Unconsciousness and Death.
Rupert Boleyn has already pointed out that what usually happens is
that people last for a few hours before collapse from decompensated shock.

Massive injuries severe enough to produce prompt unconsciousness are rare,
and
are usually fatal (penetrating head injuries are the best example).

Suggestion :-
A spectacular failure on the HT roll (17,18 on 3d6) following a blow
to the head or vitals leads to unconsciousness, otherwise damage is
resolved normally.

> 7) At -12 HT, they start making death rolls.  It can take a LONG time w/o
> medical help before this happens.  Is this reasonable?
Yes. The mortality from trauma (all causes) falls into three peaks :-
i. Within minutes - massive injury (e.g. high spinal cord or aortic
transection)
ii. Within 24 hours - despite resuscitation and appropriate surgery
(uncontrollable haemorrhage)
iii. Within 4 weeks - complications of (multi-organ) failure* and recovery
from the initial insult.

* usually complications of head injuries and chest infections ;
occasionally sepsis from other sources.

> 8) Finally with all this going on, how do we think lasers will change
> things?
It will take some enormous breakthroughs to produce man-portable
lasers which will deliver enough energy to be effective in an anti-personnel
role (punching holes, causing major burns), as opposed to blinding devices.

Vehicle mounted anti-missile or anti-vehicle weapons are a separate topic
which will not be discussed here.

The available literature suggests that laser wounds are indistinguishable
from blast effects. Strap a few grams of TNT to an object, detonate and
see what happens.

This is not particularly different in kind (from my point of view) to
the effects of hypervelocity munitions (muzzle velocity over 1500m/sec),
where craters are formed in tissue which are difficult to manage.
At least with the laser vessel cautery is more likely.



Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:40:39 -0000
Subject: [TML] Allegiance Codes -- Help
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208100238.0238e730@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>
Message-ID: <002e01c1b2e8$cbf56b60$8500a8c0@imogen>

Eric wrote:
> I need a good source for the most complete set of "allegiance codes"
> available for Traveller.  Most of my books are in storage right now.

Try

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/tu-static.html

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 10:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <B88CBD61.24828%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020211105151.34721.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>

Regardless, A Navy chief is called "Chief" by everyone, from the lowest
seaman recruit to the Chief of Naval Operations.  Even other chiefs
call him or her "Chief."

-- Gerry "A New Chief, But Still A Chief" Harris



=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 11:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:17:05 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211065525.IJRR319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 1:52, Laning wrote:

> Sort of the good-cop-bad-cop thing, where recruits are taught to think of
> officers as the remote but beloved "Daddy" figure.  There's a term for this
> command style, but I can't remember it.  It's very widespread in the military. 
> If you're a Star Trek fan, they tried to show Captain Picard using this style.

Oh, we got that too. But to remind us of this god-like person's existence we 
got to parade and be inspected by them each morning. This was of course also a 
fine opportunity for the sergeant and corporals to find fault and assign blame 
and punishments. All in all a very useful little device the morning parade.

> The second reason for the scarce visibility of officers was that every time
> there's a scandal over some recruit being mistreated and the recruit's mommy
> writes a letter to their congressman, it's a lot easier to be vague about what
> really happened if there was no officer on the scene.  If you're not there, you
> can't be blamed.  If an officer is present for something that sounds dubious, it
> causes more concern and interest among outside parties than if it was only NCOs.

We don't have congressmen, and ministers of parliment over here don't seem to 
pay much attention unless it looks like a beating or sexual harrasment 
situation (and that's the Navy's baliwack).

>  Several anecdotes supporting this spring quickly to mind.  There was the time
> as a recruit that I was on fire watch in the wee hours and my mate on fire watch
> totally screwed up and then hid, leaving me to take the blame for his screw up. 
> The DI who was with us overnight woke up, stormed in, grabbed me as the only
> visible fire watch and therefore the one to blame and was so ticked off that he
> not only did his best to terrorize me but actually lost it a little and
> judo-tripped me to the deck and then punched my jaw while I was down (not a
> difficult assault to achieve when I started out standing at attention).  GASP!
> Eeegads, you say, a DI actually struck one of his recruits!  Prior to roughly
> the end of the Viet Nam War, nobody would think twice.  In 1980, it was a Very
> Big Deal.  The DI in question reported himself to his Senior DI first thing the
> next morning.  While the platoon was getting dressed, the Senior summoned me to
> his little office, did his best to put me at ease and gave me every opportunity
> to accuse the DI of assault.  I didn't really see any point to it.  The DI
> didn't even hurt me, he wasn't a time bomb about to explode more seriously on
> someone else or anything, and he was a pretty damned good DI.  And he had a
> Bronze Star with "V", so you know he's a hell of a field Marine.  The citation
> involved being surrounded, being out of ammo, hours of hand-to-hand combat, and
> machine gun nests.  He said they spent most of the night throwing the grenades
> that landed at their feet back down at the NVA, throwing rocks at NVA, and
> trying to fool the NVA into thinking they still had machine gun and rifle ammo. 
> He taught us that an e-tool is usually your best choice for a melee weapon, and
> you could tell it was experience not theory.  He was Force Recon, btw.  It would
> have been a loss to the Corps to have to bust him, throw him in the brig for
> assault, and take his stripes away.  The fallout was that the DI in question was
> concealed a few feet away during this interview and heard every word as I
> completely refused to rat him out.  In fact I said, "Whatever happened, I had it
> coming", and by then the DI had already learned that it was the other fire watch
> who'd screwed up, not me.  For the rest of boot camp, his attitude towards me
> changed from "damned college kid" to "I know he's no weasel".  He really started
> liking me when we got to our rapelling training and I rapelled with such
> fiendish abandon that it actually scared the DIs, plus when we got to pugil
> sticks, I took out my opponent in about two seconds.  The icing on the cake was
> that his knuckles were bruised and swollen for two weeks after punching me and
> my jaw was fine by noon chow time.  We both got a laugh out of that.  On
> graduation day he asked me if my jaw was made of lead or something.  Um, anyway
> I'm babbling again.  If an officer had been present for any part of that
> incident, the whole molehill would have turned into a Matterhorn.  Who needs it.

Our platoon commander wasn't present all the time, just often enough that you 
had to keep aware of things. Besides a good officer knows when to be blind and 
not see things.

> My attitude is don't worry too much about the "lack of officer supervision" I
> described.  IMHO, it's okay, because you can usually be pretty safe entrusting a
> Marine corporal, sergeant, or staff NCO with a lot more responsibility than the
> Army usually seems to be comfortable with giving their NCOs and senior
> sergeants.  Partly because the discipline is stronger so you're more sure we'll
> follow doctrine, and partly because rank comes slower in the Marine Corps so our
> guys tend to have more experience and training by the time they reach a given
> rank.

Sounds more like the way do things. Even in the Territorials (part-timers) a 
Sergeant who'd served less than six years was almost unheard of. In the Regular 
Force six year Lance Corporals aren't uncommon.

> --Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML   (Proud to have made
> sergeant (E-5) in **only** five years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were two
> years when not one single person in my entire MOS made corporal.  In retrospect,
> if I'd done a stint on the drill field I might have moved faster.  It probably
> would have made a better Marine of me, too.)

Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 11:28:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:28:23 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]__Autofire_support_weapons_in_TO&E_=28was_Re:=A0_Military__Units=29?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211073227.IOZR319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202101015.g1AAFUN11052@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6861A7.23637.2FEF56@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 2:30, Laning wrote:

> I permit gunpowder MGs to be used for indirect
> fire, if you know what you're doing.

I remember watching with interest as a SFMG det set up their two FM MAG on 
tripods and carefully surveyed everything. Later on they did a fire-power demo 
for us (for a change our company had all this spare ammo and naturally one 
should never have ammo left over at the end of a training year). One of the 
things they did was an indirect fire shoot at night with 1 in 5 tracer. They 
landed their beaten zone on the target first time (and it was an un-preplanned 
one, because they got one of us riflemen to call it in). Great fun.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 12:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:22 +1000
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>

From: Rupert Boleyn 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > (page 44 sidebar).
 > 
 > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.

"How many Marines does it take to change a light-bulb?"

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 13:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:05:54 +1000
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E (was Re: Military Units)
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006501c1b2fd$55d24c40$525d8690@computer>

> From: Laning
> The .50 cal machine guns are also more plentiful in the USMC
> than in most countries/services, and if you have one or some of these
> attached to your platoon, that's pretty sweet.  These things have
> ridiculous range and power, and can make a huge difference.  They're also
> damned heavy and bulky and require lots of cleaning maintenance and lots
> of heavy ammo.  Therefore, it isn't practicable to put them on the TO&E
> for lower level units unless they have everyone mounted in vehicles.

At work I am currently writing a bit of a short history of the battle of
Milne Bay in 1942.  This involves talking to a bunch of people who were
there.

One thing that has come up is the role of US Engineers in the battle.
Basically, at the critical point of the battle*, the Japanese were enfiladed
by all these half-tracks with .50 cals mounted on them....  Apparently this
had _something_ to do with the Japanese defeat.

Another thing that has arisen is the sheer amount of "stuff" that was flying
around that night.  Visibility was a bit of a problem - it was pitch-black
(aside from flares), so a lot of what was being fired off wasn't
particularly precisely aimed .  This included artillery, two battalions
worth of infantry fire, and so on.  Apparently the mortar platoons of the
infantry battalions were firing at their absolute minimum range, and the
crews were worried about their fire dropping vertically back on their
positions.

The saving throw model does seem to fit what was going on pretty well.

> Squads still spend a lot of time with no MG attached at all though, and
> they have long since learned how to be combat effective without one.  I
> think that's a Good Thing, since platoon leaders and company commanders
> get much more flexible control out of their MG assets this way and are
> able to redistribute them in the most efficient manner for each task.  The
> squads without MGs are that much more mobile and agile for not having the
> burden.

Apparently in WWII, Australian units would occasionally leave their LMGs
(Brens) behind when they went on patrols.  At Milne Bay the Colonel of the
2/10th Battalion** organised his battalion as a "large-scale fighting
patrol" when it had to advance to engage the Japanese: an entire company
left their Brens behind, another two left behind all but one per platoon,
while only the last (rifle) company took its full complement behind.  The
battalion also borrowed extra SMGs.  They got chewed up badly.

Units on the Kokoda Track left behind all but one MMG and one 3" Mortar from
their MMG and Mortar platoons.  This, of course, was due to the difficulty
of carrying them, and their ammunition, along the track.  Exhaustion was a
major problem on the Kokoda Track, even for fresh troops moving up to the
front, while all supplies had to be carried on peoples' backs, or dropped by
air.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

* The assault on No. 3 Strip, if anyone is familiar with the engagement in
question.

** The Australian army in WWII was divided between Australian Imperial Force
(AIF) and militia units.  Units with names of the 2/x form are AIF.  These
were generally more experienced than the militia, although the militia were
good troops too.  The AIF were also more experienced than US troops in
1942/43...










From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 13:08:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:08:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1b2fd$56b420c0$525d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> >   A buddy of mine served in the military and told me that an
> > "affectionate" nickname for a Lieutenant was "El-Tee".
> We used that all the time, to the officer's face.  It wasn't considered
> derogatory in the least.

People may recall a post of mine a couple of months back about a WWII
Lieutenant whose name was Garland, and whose men called him "Judy" to his
face.  They were, of course, Commandoes.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 14:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:30:45 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F696ekdGlrn8LOLP9r700002df8@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "IIRC, that's a marine thing."


Mr. Glenn,

     It's a USN boot camp thing too, with all the attendent faux pas of 
calling E-3 corpmen "sir".  We learned pretty fast that you only "sirred" an 
officer and the fellows with the CC* aiguillette.
     My military address sea story follows:

     I pulled a ~8 month fleet tour prior to attending nuc propulsion school 
and drew a billet aboard a trig Leahy-class CG coming out of the yards.  
Great duty, really learned quite a bit.  She had a sweet 2000 PSI 
superheated propulsion system.
     The Main Propulsion Assistant aboard was a senior chief.  The billet 
normally drew an officer, but Senior Chief Machinist Mate Middleton filled 
it.  He knew more about steam plants than their designers.  I learned more 
from him than I did at "A" school.  He was also a bit of a "salt" and 
enjoyed his role among the crew.
     One day, he and I were strolling down the pier on our way to a valve 
shop when a newly-minted female ensign popped up.  Middleton had problems 
with new officers and had real problems with new officers with couldn't go 
to sea, i.e. women.  He purposely failed to throw her a salute.  That meant 
I didn't salute her either.  The senior enlisted man present is supposed to 
initiate that sort of thing.  I had nervously waited too late for the Senior 
Chief to start and had ended sketching some sort of wave as we passed her.
     She called him on it after we had passed her, actually trotting up 
behind the two of us and shouting "chief, chief".  When Middleton deigned to 
turn around, she was flushed, angry, and pointing at her collar pins.  
Middleton took the stogie out of his mouth, leaned over her, and squinted at 
her collar.  He straightened up and smiled at her, then dug a coin out of 
his pocket.  Pressing it into her hand he said:
     "Ain't you cute!  Here you go, honeybunch, why don't you call your 
momma and tell her you met a real sailor today?"
     With that, he turned and walked off with me in tow.  It had been a 
perfect made-for-the-movies moment.
     Believe me, senior enlisted personnel actually run the military.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - CC means "company commander", the Navy's watered down version of DI.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:43:02 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211144518.KKUK319.dorsey@link>

Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard mention
if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more preceding
my time in.  I was 1980-86.

Of course, US Marines and/or sailors routinely get ourselves banned from
liberty in various foreign ports of call, particularly in Spain, for some
reason.  We go ashore, spend our money, get riotously drunk, can't figure
out why there aren't scads of frisky, gorgeous local women hanging out at
the base Enlisted Club, get resentful over this. someone starts a fight,
and then everyone fights and destroys all the furniture.  Can't understand
why they won't have us back for another six or twelve months.

Many of the locations where we have more or less permanent bases in other
countries have long-standing tension or resentment with the U.S. troops or
sailors stationed there.  On the one hand, the local town likes the cash we
bring to the economy and possibly appreciates the added protection the U.S.
presence provides, on the other hand they resent the boorish behavior of
many of our troops and the fact that our presence skews the local ratio of
males to females all out of whack.  Plus, as the Brits began saying of us
during WW2:  "Oversexed, overpaid, and worst of all, over here".  The
example that comes most to mind is that most African-American troops
stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were basically
hated, much more than our white troops.  During the height of the threat
from the Soviet Bloc and before public opinion in much of Europe found U.S.
action in Viet Nam to be reprehensible, this was much less of a problem but
it got worse over time.  I'm not sure how much of this was flat out
prejudice, how much was cultural clash, and how much was it being much
easier to spot an American soldier as American when the black skin makes it
a dead giveaway.


It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large military
base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in relations with
its local town.  I spent about three years at Camp Pendleton, a base
containing roughly 40,000 Marines (more than 95% males) and located in the
northern end of San Diego County, California, along the coast.  The town of
Oceanside is just outside the main gate and has a population considerably
smaller than Camp Pendleton's.  Oceanside was forever passing laws to
prevent the people from operating the bars and massage parlors and such
that used to thrive there.  The town turned into nothing but dry cleaners
and barber shops.  Over on the East Coast, the situation between the town
and Marines from Camp LeJeune where I spent a few months was even worse.
Camp LeJeune is almost as populous as Pendleton, but the town is way more
out in the sticks.  It is several hours' drive to the nearest thing you'd
call a "metropolitan area".  The bars and much more disreputable places
thrived, but there was a LOT of violence and the local police were
routinely shooting Marines every week.  It was pretty clear the usual
reason for getting shot (or dying in police custody under mysterious
circumstances) had a lot more to do with just being a Marine than with
resisting arrest or anything like that.  As a general rule, the higher the
ratio of troops to civilians, and the farther the town is from large
metropolitan centers, the worse relations tend to be.  After Desert Storm,
the military suddenly became more popular with our civilians and I
understand things are a lot better now at most duty stations.

ObTrav:  Should be apparent.  It may not always be a good idea to proudly
wear that obviously military haircut or uniform.  This will not just depend
on the planet's attitude overall but will vary a great deal according to
how big the local military installation is, how small the local town, how
long they've been stationed there, how evenly the troops are split between
male and female, how close everyone is to a large metropolitan center, how
ominous the threat is that the troops are defending against, and how
different the cultures and racial features of the troops and the locals are.

--Laning
"It's Tommy this and Tommy that..."  -Rudyard Kipling
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 at 16:48:25 -0800, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> typed:
>>>
I don't know when this was alleged to have occurred, but I never underwent 
regular STD testing.. just random drug tests.
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:32:20 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <20020211070347.ILAK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>US Army slang, not USMC.  :->
>
>I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
>small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address his
>lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part humor
>part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
>part serious>
>--Laning

For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and 
others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.

Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to hear it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:02:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:02:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C67EB01.5774B98E@sitraka.com>

"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.

Well, fair enough, it should be trivial for any non-corrupt
law system to exonerate the PCs.

Many, if not all PCs, however, have a distinct distaste for being
arrested, not in the least due to the fact they're usually up to 
no good.

Plus, if someone wants to hang the PCs out to dry this may be 
a difficult case for the PCs to prove as they're the only witnesses,
etc.

Sure, IRL, this would be merely disturbing to a high degree and 
unlikely to land you in jail. In Traveller, on the other hand...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 15:28:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:28:25 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:__Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_?=
 stories
In-Reply-To: <20020211144518.KKUK319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202110814.g1B8ES817415@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211072721.009eb8e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Plus, as the Brits began saying of us
>during WW2:  "Oversexed, overpaid, and worst of all, over here".

The America response was that the Brits were "underpaid, undersexed, and 
under Eisenhower."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:35:29 GMT
Subject: [TML] Military Map Symbols (Was Military Units)
Message-ID: <E16aJQP-0004Zd-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

> 
> >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:38:22 -0000
> >From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> >Subject: Military Units
> >

> >(2) Where can I get the little box symbols for each unit size and type ?
> 
For military box symbols, try this site.  

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tommouat/


Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 16:18:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:18:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <3C67EEEC.8AC26DBF@sitraka.com>

"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> for example) will be a "dead" give-away.


I should also mention that this becomes more of an issue in
places where gun ownership is tightly controlled (like around
here, Way Up North). People know that a gun is a quick, relatively
way to kill yourself but it's simply not accessible to most of them.
Ergo, when they see a gun, it's like someone holding a holy relic.

Not that I should really claim to know the mind of someone with 
serious mental illness, but since Trav PCs always seem insistent on
carrying their guns everywhere regardless of the legality thereof,
it might be a good way to disabuse them of the habit.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:15:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:15:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I imagine that the figures in Far Trader are for the averages, with
> some worlds of a given tech level richer, and others poorer.  This
> could be interesting for merchant characters who go to a TL C world
> expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> have done some basic research first :/

I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and 'per
capita GWP' are very closely related; the most credible model of Traveller
economies and TLs I can come up with is to assume that 'TL' pretty much _is_ a
measure of relative wealth.

Note that most likely a 'TL 7' world in Traveller is substantially poorer than
the US.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:20:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:20:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
Message-ID: <RELAY3o3DjFbUcOV1Ee00002cf1@relay3.softcomca.com>

Justin Bunnell <jbunnell@yahoo.com> writes:

> > >ObTrav: This would make a pretty ugly plot twist for PCs...
> > >
> > >GM: He grabs your gun.
> > >PC: What!? I jump him!
> > >GM: He raises the gun...
> > >PC 2: I get ready to shoot him
> > >GM: And blows his brains out.
> > >PC & PC 2: ohshit.
> > >GM: You hear sirens in the distance...
> > >
> > >Ethan
> >
> > Any coroner that can't immediately determine this was a
> > suicide should be fired.  Even if the one of PCs had already
> > discharged a firearm, the composition of the wound entry
> > and exit, the blood pattern, powder burns around the entry
> > point, the biological matter on the firearm and the hand that
> > held it, not to mention the pattern and distribution of powder
> > burns and gas residue (on the hand that held the weapon,
> > for example) will be a "dead" give-away.
>
> Perhaps, but what if the PC had grabbed the gun?

But he didn't, did he?  Read the exchange above.

You can play "what if" all day long.  I was commenting on the
situation exactly as described.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:29:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:29:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
Message-ID: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>

Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> > Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?
>
> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

*Three* feet of *concrete*!?!?  Are you sure you don't mean just plain
old cement?  Also, are we talking man-portable crossbow here or are we
talking ballista?  'Cuz if you're talking man-portable,I want to know
what you were smoking when you wrote this, Frankie.

Tell you what.  You bring your killer crossbow and let *me* pour the
concrete.  I'll stand behind the three foot concrete wall after it's
properly cured and let you fire at me.  That's how sure I am that
it won't get through.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:25:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:25:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:
> Hello Folks,
>    I know this is going to sound odd, but has anyone really *looked* at the
>     
> TRIN system from old data of the Spinward Marches and compared it with the 
> new GURPS BEHIND THE CLAW?  I find it interesting that TRIN is listed as a 
> M0 main sequence star.  Even more interesting is the fact that BTC 
> indicates that it is in the life zone.  Problem is?  It also indicates that
>  there is a planet located further inwards towards the sun.  M class
> stars,  if they have any habitable planets, usually have to be in the first 
> orbit.

Which is an artifact of most design systems, but isn't really known to exist in
reality.  Inner limit on known planets is around 0.04AU (for a hot jupiter) and
there's nothing obviously preventing planets at any point both beyond the Bode
limit and beyond the point at which they would boil away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:47:57 -0000
Subject: [TML] Aiming and hit location
In-Reply-To: <000201c1b2d2$6f367240$11111111@horace>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEGOCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AB
> Sent: 10 February 2002 13:12
>
> Warhammer Fantasy Role Play has a similar rule:  All damage is
> rolled with a
> d6.  Roll a six and you get to roll again to hit.  Hit again and
> you get to
> roll damage again.
>
> After that second to hit roll every time you roll a six you get to roll
> damage again without needing the to-hit roll.  So there is
> theoretically no
> upper limit (although practically the best I ever saw was four sixes in a
> row.)  Thus the lowliest peasant can get lucky and kill the most fearsome
> warrior.
>
> Even if you are super-competent it makes you think twice before going into
> combat.
>
> Regards.
>
> Andrew Brown

One of my D&D house rules is similiar, any max damage is rerolled and added
on.  There is a maximum number of rerolls allowed according to weapon type
and size (2 for small weapons, 3 for Medium, 4 for large and 5 for Giant
sized).  I found this a simple and easy system for persuading even high
level players to treat minor creatures with respect.

In Traveller (TNE) I included Con rolls when sufferring damage to lose
consciousness, with penalties according to wound severity (0 vs light; -3 vs
Moderate, -6 vs serious, -9 vs critical.) A failure incapacitated the
character for a number of rds equal to amount they failed their roill by.  I
also introduced long term affects of critical damage.  (generally via extra
rolls on the aging table).

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:21:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #139
In-Reply-To: <3C67EEEC.8AC26DBF@sitraka.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020208172749.00ad1008@mail.peak.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211121906.00a76a10@mail.charter.net>

At 11:18 AM 2/11/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
[snip]
>Not that I should really claim to know the mind of someone with
>serious mental illness, but since Trav PCs always seem insistent on
>carrying their guns everywhere regardless of the legality thereof,

Hey!  It's not their fault! It's the abuse the GMs heap on them that cause 
this reaction.
The PCs are the victims here.  They should have their own support group, 
and perhaps a PAC...



-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:38:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  BDA
In-Reply-To: <20020209065803.WGJX319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOMCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Blonde Damaged Airhead?
Blonde Dicked in the Ass?

Whoa Man, that chicks got a B-D-A! (Big Dam Ass)

Bang Dat Ass!

Big Dumb Aslan? (males only: "It's MONEY stupid. You BUY stuff with it!)





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Laning
Sent: Saturday, 09 February, 2002 01:56
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: BDA


Huh?  What's the BDA?  Boring Data Analysts?  Bonded Dense Armor?  (Almost
as good as Bonded Superdense.)

Uhoh, I'm sensing some potential keyboard kills in the near future as
people propose their own answers.  But really, I haven't a clue.

--Laning
"People are stupid.  Think I'm kidding, don't ya?  I can prove it.  Look at
the way they drive."  -Gallagher
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 at 21:24:39 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
typed:
>>>
What?  You mean it's not "Laning of the BDA"? ;-)
<<<



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:45:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <177.3672d64.29995d2a@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/02/02 10:40:39 GMT Standard Time, 
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:


> Justin Bunnell wrote :-
> > 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?
> 
> No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
> (great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
> for hours, potentially.

Unless you're unfortunate enough to get a tension pneumothorax - then you die 
pretty quick.

> 
> The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
> This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
> hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even 
> then).
> 


Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:42:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Translating the USMC to Traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJGCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>This hasn't quite died yet.  I work for a fellow who's about 33-35,
>and he got the choice when he was convicted of stealing radios.  He
>chose the Marines, which has worked out well for him.

"The judge gave me a choice:  Army, Navy, reform school.  I wasn't going to
no reform school.  So I thought if I picked the Navy, I'd never have to see
Flagstaff, Arizona again."  (from The Sand Pebbles)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:22:22 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard 
mention if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more 
preceding my time in.  I was 1980-86."


Sir,

     I'll back you up on that one too.  '81 to '87 for me and the only time 
there was an STD check was in November of '86 prior to what would have been 
my third WestPac.
     They drew blood for no expressed reason and, a few weeks later, removed 
~3 men from a ~600 man crew.  Seems they were checking for HIV.  It was the 
height of that particular scare and DoD had promised those nations the ship 
would be visiting that the crew would screened.  My friends who stayed in 
said it was the first and last time they were screened for a STD.
     Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose is something 
entirely different!

     "The example that comes most to mind is that most African-American 
troops stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were 
basically hated, much more than our white troops."

     "...it being much easier to spot an American soldier as American when 
the black skin makes it a dead giveaway."

     I noticed that each time I deployed too.  Once we were west of Pearl 
Harbor, the blacks in the crew were treated horribly during port calls.  The 
Phillipines were probably the least offensive, but still no walk in the 
park.  Be it Singapore, Thailand, Oz, Pakistan, Qatar, the Gulf, wherever we 
went, they were treated very poorly.  Oddly enough, the place where they 
recieved the most grief was Kenya of all places.  I tried to hail a cab for 
some shipmates there and nearly lost an arm and a leg when the cabbie 
realized his passengers would be black and sped off.
     I've seen the same behavior on business trips too.  A co-worker of mine 
was treated with extreme contempt by our "hosts" in Lagos.  She wasn't the 
only female in our group, but she was the only black.  They didn't like her 
personal name either.
     Go figure.

     "It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large 
military base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in 
relations with its local town."

     Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass.  Alameda, CA, the town outside of 
NAS Alameda used jaywalking tickets as a handle on us.  I couldn't even 
estimate the number I paid over four years at 25 USD a pop.
     Of course when the bases close, they all scream about losing those DoD 
paychecks.  Alameda loathed us, but two supercarrier crews and two cruiser 
crews drop a lot of scoots in local coffers.  Stay away, but give us the 
dough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 18:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:52:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of

As usual, the answer is, it depends, mostly on doctrine, tech level, and
mission.  Striker gives a good approach to developing units for miniatures
wargames.

For an infantry unit, a fire team -- the basic miniatures stand in that
game -- is four sophonts.  Two or three fire teams make up a squad.  Two
squads can be a section.  Two to five squads make a platoon.  Two to five
platoons make up a company.  Two to five companies make a battalion.

NCOs and officers may be mounted separately.

For an armored unit, one vehicle is a squad, two to five a platoon, etc.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:17:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:17:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
In-Reply-To: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

He obviously meant 3 INCHES (non-reinforced)

I'll take a shotgun slug against concrete any day

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of markc@peak.org
Sent: Monday, 11 February, 2002 12:30
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete


Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> > Excuse me, but what bullets were you comparing that to?
>
> I'd be comparing it to any bullet that can go through three feet
> of concrete like a bolt from a good crossbow can.

*Three* feet of *concrete*!?!?  Are you sure you don't mean just plain
old cement?  Also, are we talking man-portable crossbow here or are we
talking ballista?  'Cuz if you're talking man-portable,I want to know
what you were smoking when you wrote this, Frankie.

Tell you what.  You bring your killer crossbow and let *me* pour the
concrete.  I'll stand behind the three foot concrete wall after it's
properly cured and let you fire at me.  That's how sure I am that
it won't get through.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:17:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:47:32 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] OT: OZ & NZ spam Block
In-Reply-To: <F225C5EtrUVYKkpLTkU00016a55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202120540450.19436-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Don't want to take up much space with this, being OT. Do want to let the
Australian and N.Z. members know something that I just discovered. That
may cause problems for them.

 I live in the USA, my e-mail is in Oz. Recenlty I had a piece of e-mail
returned to me saying that vcsweb.com is a spamhouse. I forwarded the
information to my SysAdmin. She and her hsuband contaced the SysAdmin at
that one location. Apparently that company and their connective ones
blocked out a string of numbers that takes out or blocks the Australia
"Telstra" system.

 Anyway for my account this has been fixed. If any of the list members
there are having problems. I have a set of numbers that are the ones they
blocked. Don't know how many others have done this, thought it worth
passing along.

On Topic: Wonder in 3I how the Imperium could block system communications
if they used that as part of a siege.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:44:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

In the US, units of the same type (example: regiment) can be very diverse,
differing in equipment, numbers and organization.

The Russians on the other hand are extremely anal retentive
in the numbers, types, equipments, and the organization of their units.
They keep strict uniform numbers and types in all their regular units.
Reserve units however may be missing some percentage of equipment.
 
You might wish to start off with the outline in book 4 as a guide:

Start with 4-5 men in a fire team.

Structure will vary from world to world 
and sometimes even between units on a single world


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
Sent: Monday, 11 February, 2002 13:53
To: Traveller-Digest
Subject: [TML] re: Military Units


>From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
>
>How many men are in a Squad (=fire team, right) ? Platoon ? Company ?
>Regiment ? Brigade ? Division ? Corps ? (are there any other units of

As usual, the answer is, it depends, mostly on doctrine, tech level, and
mission.  Striker gives a good approach to developing units for miniatures
wargames.

For an infantry unit, a fire team -- the basic miniatures stand in that
game -- is four sophonts.  Two or three fire teams make up a squad.  Two
squads can be a section.  Two to five squads make a platoon.  Two to five
platoons make up a company.  Two to five companies make a battalion.

NCOs and officers may be mounted separately.

For an armored unit, one vehicle is a squad, two to five a platoon, etc.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:47:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
Message-ID: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EB7@compuserve.com>

>>>>>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day 
>>>>>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if
they 
>>>>>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250
times 
>>>>>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?

No, I dont think it's safe. I'm a geek that wears a calculator watch and
only lets my Palm Pilot leave my body when I'm in the shower, but I'd STILL
like to be able to do the calculations in my head while I'm driving to work
or watching TV. So I think the conventional wisdom of keeping it as simple
as possible is correct. 


>>>>>There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the
PC's 
>>>>>want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so they
can 
>>>>>steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector
of 
>>>>>fire ...

I'm also a software geek and I'd personally be pretty PO'd at the GM if I
couldn't walk up to any computer console and add an extra level of
Difficulty to my Computer roll and disable the fire control system from any
console on the ship! 

The idea that you have to walk up to a specific fire control station seems
pretty unrealistic to me - making the need for this level of detail pretty
extraneous. 

>>>>>I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within
20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within
itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S
really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this
>>>>>system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if
ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using
pre-published designs --

Let's face it - who's really going to check your Quick & Dirty design
against FF&S anyway? I think it's been proven that even the pre-published
designs often don't match *any* FF&S! 

>>>>>While I agree that inter-system consistency is an admirable goal (and,
in-fact, the whole point of this exercise -- if I didn't care about
consistency I could just keep using HG -- or make up numbers from
whole-cloth) and would like to see as much of it as practical, >>>>>my
overriding desire is and always will be for a system that's quick, easy to
use, and self-consistent. 

>>>>>When preparing designs and deckplans for official publication it's
surely a good idea to base them on the most-detailed system (since you'll
be much more bothered by 'errors' than I am by 'extraneous' detail), but
if, for purposes of my own campaign, I'm >>>>>satisfied with a fuzzier,
more inexact approach, that shouldn't be disallowed or looked down upon.

Well said.

>>>>>What do you folks think of this outline?

I like it. Very interested in seeing next versions. 

>>>>>Unfortunately, the "Fixed" costs can't be expressed in terms of a 
>>>>>percentage of the hull used - they really are fixed, in that they're
always 
>>>>>the same number of dtons, regardless of how large (or small) the ship
is.

Personally, I like this much better than the Percentage of tons. I wish all
components could be done that way. 

>>>>>This has the drawback that, while you know that enough staterooms have
been 
>>>>>provided for the crew, the design system won't tell you how many 
>>>>>crewmembers that is.  At least in one of my games, that's a critical
piece 
>>>>>of information to know ... SO, I've added the (optional) step of
figuring 
>>>>>out how many crew there are.

Sounds like good reasoning to me. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>For drawing deck plans, here's what I want from the craft's designer:
>>>>- size (dtons) of power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and fuel.
>>>>- size (and number) of bridge and other controls
>>>>- size (dtons) of cargo bay
>>>>- number, type, and sizes of any carried craft
>>>>- number and sizes of passenger and crew quarters

I agree with all of these.

>>>>- overall size and general shape of the hull

I disagree with this. For the simple reason that I can have all of the
above fit into SEVERAL different general shapes and sizes. And as
GM/Artist/Set Designer I may decide to do exactly that. 

In the same way that Star Trek sets are often interchanged with alien ships
and space stations as the need arises. 

>>>>However, if the design is to be accurately 
>>>>communicated, the designer must decide these values and indicate them
on 
>>>>the design one way or another - so why not have the design system
produce them?<

Because it limits my creativity without adding anything that the *other*
values (dtons, crew quarters, etc.) haven't already given me. 

JMO. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 19:47:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:47:34 -0500
Subject: [TML]What Makes Traveller Great?
Message-ID: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EBB@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>>"Why has every version of Traveller failed?"  I think whether it has

I must have missed that one. I thought only TNE and T4 had failed, but that
previous versions were popular and well-recieved. 

>>>>>Except time travel, but who can be expected to do well incorporating
comprehensive time
>>>>>travel rules into an RPG, eh?  

Continuum is an excellent Time Travel RPG. And Timemaster, while a little
silly, can be a fun change of pace.  

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 20:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:03:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.

Sir Lucius O'Trigger and Bob Acres discuss duelling technique:

>Acres. Odds files!Ive practised thatthere, Sir Luciusthere. [Puts
himself in an attitude.] A >side- front, hey? Odd! Ill make myself small
enough? Ill stand edgeways.
>
>Sir Luc. Nowyoure quite outfor if you stand so when I take my
aim[Levelling at him.

[deleted]

>Sir Luc. Pho! be easy.Well, now if I hit you in the body, my bullet has a
double chancefor if >it misses a vital part of your right side, twill be
very hard if it dont succeed on the left!
>
>Acres. A vital part!
>
>Sir Luc. But, therefix yourself so[Placing him]let him see the
broad-side of your full
>fronttherenow a ball or two may pass clean through your body, and never
do any harm at all.
>
>Acres. Clean through me!a ball or two clean through me!
>
>Sir Luc. Aymay theyand it is much the genteelest attitude into the
bargain.

Richard Sheridan, the Rivals, Act 5

--Glenn

(Yes, I played Sir Lucius in a college production many years ago.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 20:54:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:54:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Crossbow bolts vs. concrete
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOPCCAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <RELAY3sYrJeujjeHdzX00002e50@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3C68E65D.12436.3FCA1B@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 14:17, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> He obviously meant 3 INCHES (non-reinforced)
> 
> I'll take a shotgun slug against concrete any day

Depends why I want a hole in it. For 3" of concrete a slug will break it up, 
but a .30-06 bullet will go through and keep going (assuming the concrete's not 
too flash).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:05:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:05:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020209111807.00a9dbb0@mail.buffnet.net> <ML-2.3.1013448313.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212080553.A5583@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Inner limit on known planets is around 0.04AU (for a hot jupiter)
> and there's nothing obviously preventing planets at any point both
> beyond the Bode limit and beyond the point at which they would boil
> away.

"Roche" limit perhaps?  Just in case someone wants to do a web search,
and not because I'm a nitpicker.  No, not the latter at all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:13:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:13:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] FYI -- Minis First?
Message-ID: <l03010d19b88de37ededc@[206.224.92.67]>

I had forgotten I had written this into the specs:

I'm looking at the art for the Cardboard Heroes that are to go into the SDB
deckplan packet, and two of them are "Crew w/Ship's Cat." This marks the
first appearance, as far as I know, of a pet in any Traveller miniatures*
set (unless we did one with a beaker way back when). Anyone who wants to
can use the clockwork cat from the GURPS Steamunk (metal) minis set for a
ship's robocat, but that wasn't in a Traveller product.

LKW

* Assuming you count CH as minis -- there is some disagreement over this
point).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:32:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020211183648.A2670@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013447743.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> > but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> > have done some basic research first :/
> 
> I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and 'per
> capita GWP' are very closely related;

Oh, I agree that they are very strongly related.  However, just
looking at some nations on Earth points out that TL 7 alone covers a
pretty wide range of economic performance.  Not that I'd put Ethiopia
in TL 7 though, I was just pointing out that both the US and Ethiopia
are on a planet that Traveller would label as TL 7.

I would have to put China as TL 7 in Traveller terms though.  They
certainly have the native capability to produce things beyond 1940s
technology.  China has a per-capita GDP more than 10 times lower than
the US, equivalent to about 5 tech levels on the Far Trader table.  So
either GWP is not as closely tied to GWP as a strict interpretation of
Far Trader would indicate, or the TL/GWP relationship has been very
heavily compressed for purposes of the game.

I favour the latter interpretation, personally.  I would not be at all
surprised if each TL would generate a 200% increase in per-capita GWP
rather than 50%.  This means that I agree with your model that TL is a
measure of relative wealth.  I just think so even more strongly than
the GURPS rules indicate :)

I can see why the table would be compressed -- two reasons, really.
One is that GURPS Ultra-Tech already assumes such a relationship.  The
other is that Traveller deals with huge variations in TL and
population, and using a more realistic variation in economy would make
the high-pop high-tech worlds even more overwhelming dominant than
they are already.  Does this make sense?


> the most credible model of Traveller economies and TLs I can come up
> with is to assume that 'TL' pretty much _is_ a measure of relative
> wealth.
> 
> Note that most likely a 'TL 7' world in Traveller is substantially
> poorer than the US.

Don't these two sentences oppose one another somewhat?  If a world is
substantially poorer than the US, doesn't the first sentence mean that
it must be lower than TL 7?

Actually I suppose the US could be *late* TL 7, compared to a more
common middle TL 7.  But by the Far Trader table, that only accounts
for about 20% difference.  By 'substantially', I had in mind a
difference of 60% or so.  (e.g. per-capita GWP difference between US
and UK).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:12:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trin System
In-Reply-To: <20020212080553.A5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013461941.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> "Roche" limit perhaps?  Just in case someone wants to do a web search,
> and not because I'm a nitpicker.  No, not the latter at all :)

Heh.  Woops, right of course.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:52:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:52:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202111729.g1BHTbR19611@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020211215515.NBIT319.dorsey@link>

We do not "sarge" in the Marine Corps.  (Line to be read in the same
fashion as Lt. Worf said, "I am NOT a merry man".)

When Army types addressed me as Sarge, I tried to make allowances for their
lack of proper upbringing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:44:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Trivial Ship Design System
In-Reply-To: <200202111447_MC3-F17C-1EB7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211162601.00a6edc0@mail.charter.net>

At 02:47 PM 2/11/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
> >>>>>I'd like to hear from other people about this point.  Back in the day
> >>>>>(certainly in the CT era), not everyone had a calculator.  Or even if
>they
> >>>>>available.  To put it another way, is it safe to assume that 1250
>times
> >>>>>2.47 isn't any "harder" on the designer than 7 times 9?
>No, I dont think it's safe. I'm a geek that wears a calculator watch and
>only lets my Palm Pilot leave my body when I'm in the shower, but I'd STILL
>like to be able to do the calculations in my head while I'm driving to work
>or watching TV. So I think the conventional wisdom of keeping it as simple
>as possible is correct.

A brain dead design system is a published set of standard designs.
"This is a Scout Ship, this is a Merchant, this is a fighter..."

The next level up would be Hull A, Power Plant B, Weapons Package C, 
Secondary Vehicle Package D...
Each component has 2 to 4 numbers associated with it and everything has to 
add up.
For example, all the volume has to fit in the hull (except for externally 
mounted vehicles, like a pinnance)
Integer math, quick & dirty
You can build a ship with this, but it will have wasted space, power, etc.

Then GearHead Heaven, detailed components, actual math, room for 
optimization, etc.

This process should flow downward for compatibility!

GearHead Nirvana first, use that to make the building blocks for the 
Giranimals (tm) design system.

Build examples using both and publish.  Everything is consistent.
Yes, the gearheads will check, and complain.


> >>>>>There's where we differ - I do, since I've had campaigns where the PC's
> >>>>>want to disable missile battery three's fire control systems, so 
> they can
> >>>>>steal a shuttle and make their escape through battery three's sector of
> >>>>>fire ...
>I'm also a software geek and I'd personally be pretty PO'd at the GM if I
>couldn't walk up to any computer console and add an extra level of
>Difficulty to my Computer roll and disable the fire control system from any
>console on the ship!

Hmm...low levels of internal system security on that ship. :-)

>The idea that you have to walk up to a specific fire control station seems
>pretty unrealistic to me - making the need for this level of detail pretty
>extraneous.

You are just not paranoid enough.

> >>>>>I'd like the system to be able to produce relatively accurate (within
>20%) ships of 20 to 5000 dtons, and to at least stay consistent within
>itself for larger ships.  I must confess that exact compatability with FF&S
>really isn't all that key of a concern to me.  After all, if this
> >>>>>system allows a broad enough range of results I plan to rarely (if
>ever) actually use FF&S, so compatability would only come up when using
>pre-published designs --
>Let's face it - who's really going to check your Quick & Dirty design
>against FF&S anyway? I think it's been proven that even the pre-published
>designs often don't match *any* FF&S!

A whole bunch of gearheads.  Probably most of the members of the Gearhead ring.
Depends on the system you're jamming into.  If you are going for CT, ya, 
you can get real close with FF&S.
You just use the Thruster Plate rules instead of Fusion drives and make the 
listed changed to jump fuel requirements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:54:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:54:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > > expecting to deal with the futuristic economic equivalent of the US,
> > > but instead find a TL C equivalent of Ethiopia.  Maybe they should
> > > have done some basic research first :/
> > 
> > I don't know if this is possible.  My suspicion is that 'tech level' and
> > 'per capita GWP' are very closely related;
> 
> Oh, I agree that they are very strongly related.  However, just
> looking at some nations on Earth points out that TL 7 alone covers a
> pretty wide range of economic performance.

TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus smaller states in
western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's not actually that variable.
> 
> I would have to put China as TL 7 in Traveller terms though.  They
> certainly have the native capability to produce things beyond 1940s
> technology.

Well, my point is that the only sensible definition of a world's TL in
traveller is that it's a direct measure of wealth, and is only incidentally
related to the actual capabilities of the manufacturing base.  I can't think of
any real-world examples of a TL 3 or 4 serious manufacturing base; primitive
areas are just flat-out poor.

> Don't these two sentences oppose one another somewhat?  If a world is
> substantially poorer than the US, doesn't the first sentence mean that
> it must be lower than TL 7?

Nope.  There's a difference between 'europe in the middle ages' (TL 3) and
modern afghanistan (probably also TL 3); they have _totally_ different
economics.  I argue that the latter is a more accurate model of a TL 7 economy
in Traveller than the former.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:41:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:41:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)
Message-ID: <20020211.164159.-224321.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Does anyone need a copy of the TNE World Tamer's Handbook?  I ask this
because there is a dutch auction (not mine) on eBay where someone has 100
copies of WTH for sale.  The link is
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1702927269&r=0&t=0
&showTutorial=0&ed=1013825429&indexURL=0&rd=1.  I somewhat doubt that
there will be 100 people bidding on this item, so anyone who needs a copy
can proably get it for the minimum bid of $9.95, plus $4.50 P&H.  Hope
this is of help to anyone who has been looking for a copy of this
particulat supplement.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:50:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <l03010d1cb88dec29e857@[206.224.92.67]>

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-02/11/11.30.tv

 "Set almost 500 years in the future in a newly established Union of
Planets, Firefly centers on Reynolds, the owner and the captain of a small
"Firefly"-class transport spaceship named Serenity. The time period in the
series is a version of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era, with Reynolds
as a disillusioned war veteran. "

Hmmmmm . . . this all seems tantalizingly familiar somehow . . .

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 22:14:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:14:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?


http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-02/11/11.30.tv

 "Set almost 500 years in the future in a newly established Union of
Planets, Firefly centers on Reynolds, the owner and the captain of a small
"Firefly"-class transport spaceship named Serenity. The time period in the
series is a version of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era, with Reynolds
as a disillusioned war veteran. "

Hmmmmm . . . this all seems tantalizingly familiar somehow . . .

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 22:39:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:39:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Four
In-Reply-To: <3C6833A6.9FD7107A@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Message-ID: <B88D8834.24A9A%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: Jean-Pierre Lockhead <jean-pierre.lockhead@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:12:06 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Four

Desperately trying to know what the number FOUR (4) is in Russian and
how it is pronounced.

Please answer back at this address or to:  jplockhead@hotmail.com
Thanks
J.P. Lockhead





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:03:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:03:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020209195214.02b197c0@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020211230336.64364.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  The USMC has used a 3-FT squad since at least WW2.
The only formal exception to that was the 11-man squad
from the mid-80's...and that was mostly due to
manpower concerns.....

      MACessna
  >>
--- Bryn Monnery <littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Any source for this? I've never heard of an army
> that had a formal squad/fire-
> >team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK
> everyone use two, including
> >those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a
> squad/section at all.
> 
> I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in
> Traveller:2300, we had 
> 3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of
> the British Army. See 
>
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm
> (although 2300, 
> it would be great to adapt to Traveller).
> 
> Bryn
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:07:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:07:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <3C66563C.16084.79284A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020211230759.3880.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  It allows the squad to function better as an
independent unit, following the "two up, one back"
rule. Also, it allows for a better base of fire, while
not hamstringing the units' maneuver ability.

  Note also that Marine FT's each contain an M249 SAW,
and an M203 GL.....

      MACessna
  >>
--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2002, at 15:35, John Groth wrote:
> 
> > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine
> Corps used a three
> > fire-team squad organization (page 44 sidebar).
> 
> Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing
> that.
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> > 
> > 
> > Bryn Monnery wrote:
> > 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:20:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:20:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA
Message-ID: <50.66af3d2.2999abd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/02/02 20:20:59 GMT Standard Time, 
gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:


> >From: CHam628781@aol.com
> >
> >*I have to say I cringed when I saw the "blow-through" ruling in T4.
> 
> Sir Lucius O'Trigger and Bob Acres discuss duelling technique:
> 
> >Acres. Odds files!—I’ve practised that—there, Sir Lucius—there. [Puts
> himself in an attitude.] A >side- front, hey? Odd! I’ll make myself small
> enough? I’ll stand edgeways.
> >
> >Sir Luc. Now—you’re quite out—for if you stand so when I take my
> aim—[Levelling at him.
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> >Sir Luc. Pho! be easy.—Well, now if I hit you in the body, my bullet has a
> double chance—for if >it misses a vital part of your right side, ’twill be
> very hard if it don’t succeed on the left!
> >
> >Acres. A vital part!
> >
> >Sir Luc. But, there—fix yourself so—[Placing him]—let him see the
> broad-side of your full
> >front—there—now a ball or two may pass clean through your body, and never
> do any harm at all.
> >
> >Acres. Clean through me!—a ball or two clean through me!
> >
> >Sir Luc. Ay—may they—and it is much the genteelest attitude into the
> bargain.
> 
> Richard Sheridan, the Rivals, Act 5
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> (Yes, I played Sir Lucius in a college production many years ago.)
> 

I have no idea whether you're agreeing with me or not. Are you a politician? 
;)

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:19:23 -0000
Subject: [TML] Four
References: <B88D8834.24A9A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c1b356$9b3fe5e0$7475893e@fabian>


> From: Jean-Pierre Lockhead <jean-pierre.lockhead@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:12:06 -0500
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Four
>
> Desperately trying to know what the number FOUR (4) is in Russian and
> how it is pronounced.

Chtery. Stress is on the E.

I'm revising my Russian because I'm gonna be in Moscow, but teh mind
boggles as to your reasons for needing to know :)

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:50:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~

What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.  
Admittedly, some things specific to the Buffy setting (i.e. worrying about
classes in previous seasons) don't belong in a story about a
spaceship.  But now Buffy is on her own and worries about bills. Nobody on
this list should be able to say you can't get a good story out of a
starship crew's trying to pay their bills.  And the writing is excellent.  
Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and missed
the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the same.
Getting back to the subject line, I do have high hopes for Firefly.  We'll
see.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:14:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:14:23 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
>effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
>falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
>lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
>buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.

The shotgun went out of the favor of Agent Tambo of the Regina Subsector
Special Police when its buckshot bounced off the Zhodani warbot with no
effect.  The snub pistol with HEAP worked much better.  I have a feeling
that my players are going to be requesting ACRs the next time they have to
execute a search warrant.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:44:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:44:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Aslan females in comfortable shoes (humor)
In-Reply-To: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212004658.OARA319.dorsey@link>

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who has been a long-time
Traveller player, but still hasn't got 'round to subscribing to the TML.  I
related some of the standing jokes that have evolved on the TML like the
ship crewed entirely by Aslan females in comfortable shoes.  He loved it.
He called them...Aslamazons.   <rim shot>

And my description of the whole Spofulam thing fell really short of the
original.  He did like the elephant-pack particle accelerators.  Next time,
I'll have to remember to tell him Auric Tech's slogan.  :->

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:39:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:39:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB1@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

"That's right puppy...Willow's gonna' make you *bark*."

Yes, I DO occaisionally catch the show.  Hard not to with 2 roomies that watch it near-religously ;)  (I DO wish I'd seen THAT episode though :^D )  They've got a lot of good writing, at the very least one-liner writing, but there's still something about the show that irritates me for some reason.  Maybe it's the whole branching off from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to "Buffy the Demon or Other Villainous Thing of the Week Slayer".  I'm rambling now.  I'll shut up :)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Carl Kettler [mailto:gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:50 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?


On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~

What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.  
Admittedly, some things specific to the Buffy setting (i.e. worrying about
classes in previous seasons) don't belong in a story about a
spaceship.  But now Buffy is on her own and worries about bills. Nobody on
this list should be able to say you can't get a good story out of a
starship crew's trying to pay their bills.  And the writing is excellent.  
Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and missed
the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the same.
Getting back to the subject line, I do have high hopes for Firefly.  We'll
see.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:41:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:41:43 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Strategic Mobility
References: <200202012034.g11KY2u02418@rhylanor.cordite.com> <3.0.3.32.20020205082300.006ddad4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c1b35e$20b64b40$e3120150@jimcatchpole>

Douglas Berry wrote :-

> Unless i missed something in four months of research, the only
> other design for a dedicated troop carrier ever put out was the 800 ton
> Broadsword-class.
> 

What about the Iylvir (and the Belraggan) from IISS Ship Files ?

A bit small I know, but they did claim to be troop carriers. ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:48:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (The Webbs)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:48:50 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
References: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1b35f$0c2b16a0$4680f1cf@computer>


> We do not "sarge" in the Marine Corps.  (Line to be read in the same
> fashion as Lt. Worf said, "I am NOT a merry man".)
>
> When Army types addressed me as Sarge, I tried to make allowances for
their
> lack of proper upbringing.
>
> - --Laning
>

Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever
in.  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing
you, but you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A
good NCO normally picks up on them :)

KS_Lawdog


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:54:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>

Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower or
higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 00:48:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:48:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>; from gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <20020211174859.B29016@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
>
> Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to
> Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and
> missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the
> same.

Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
the nubility?

In college (I graduated '00) all the guys would come over and watch
every Thursday evening.  Much beer was drunk, and much fun was had by
all.

Don't watch it anymore, myself, but that's because I don't watch TV
anymore.  I limit myself to DVDs and tapes.

Me, I'm a first-few-seasons Willow kind of guy...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:12:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1b35f$0c2b16a0$4680f1cf@computer>
Message-ID: <3C6922C5.25202.221940@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 18:48, The Webbs wrote:

> Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever in.
>  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing you, but
> you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A good NCO
> normally picks up on them :)

I think it depends on the NCO. Over here some sergeants will tell you it's okay 
to call them "Sarge" in an informal setting, whereas others don't like it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:36:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <20020211174859.B29016@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B88DB194.24BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 4:48 PM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> Me, I'm a first-few-seasons Willow kind of guy...

Here, here!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:30:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:30:37  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>

>I used interlock for a little while in the early 90's (about the >same time a friend ran Call of Traveller) then switched to TNE when >it came out because it was pretty close. 

IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend in the pub the other night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into Traveller. It took about five minutes.

We thought that the great old ones were maaybe the other side of the ancients war to the Grandfather and that they lost and were shut into a pocket universe. The entrance to this portal was on some world off towards the rim of anything important and under the largest ocean on the planets' surface (hmm, wonder where that is..?)

Any thoughts anyone.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:35:39 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88DB16B.24BB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 4:14 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> Interesting how the shotgun engenders more concern than it's actual
>> effectiveness warrants. Further, it should be noted that the shotgun is
>> falling out of favor with many law enforcement agencies.  In an age of
>> lightweight body armor, the shotguns killing power is less and standard
>> buckshot has a very limited range.  Special loads, of course, change this.
> 
> The shotgun went out of the favor of Agent Tambo of the Regina Subsector
> Special Police when its buckshot bounced off the Zhodani warbot with no
> effect.  The snub pistol with HEAP worked much better.  I have a feeling
> that my players are going to be requesting ACRs the next time they have to
> execute a search warrant.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 

You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun fires
a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
whole different matter.

Special purpose ammunition exists or has been developed presently that
change the shotgun's performance radically.  A brief sampling:

Shot:    What we think of as bird shot.  Small pellets 1-3mm in diameter and
excellent against small flying game.

Buck:   or Buckshot.  Larger pellets of lead or other material used against
larger animals and personnel.  Effective to about 50m

Flechette:  Finned dart projectiles with greatly increased range and
excellent armor piecing capability.  They lack some lethality because of
their relatively low velocity.

SCMITR: A unique variation of the flechette made from a wide but thin
stamping. It features excellent penetration (steel helmets and kevlar vests
are penetrated at 500m) and high lethality due to its slicing action.

HE: An example is the Argentine minigrenade, which can be fired from a
standard shotgun, has a range of over 500m and a burst radius and lethality
about the same as the V40 mini hand grenade.

Incendiary: Again, the Argentines have fielded a quite effective incediary
shotgun shell with about 500m range.

BRI sabotted slug: This load features a wasp waist .50 caliber slug in an
18.5mm sabot.  The slug may be lead or steel, or any other material, and has
high penetration at reasonable ranges. (I shot one through both sides of a
car at about 100m)

TeleShot:   Silent shotgun ammunition.  My personal favorite.

It takes only the slightest extrapolation to add an HEAP round to the
inventory.  See my tech brief on the shotgun at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:47:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
Message-ID: <m0tg6u0662ljlm7a7n7jrekqdms5jq7em9@4ax.com>

What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
only" posting to the digest?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:43:10  0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <LBMFPAHFHMLJGBAA@angelfire.com>

Interesting to read your comments about the exchange rate between the US$ and the Cr. I've always had it ppinned at  about #1, but thinking about it that's more of a subconscious thought than one I've put aany thinking into. Now I think about it I've always thought that some things come out as being far too cheap. So maybe your figure is slightly better (making it worth about #3, at the current rate of the # to the US$)

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the value of the Cr to modern currencies?

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 01:57:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:57:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.ed
 u>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>

At 05:50 PM 2/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.

*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC 
massacres.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:02:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:02:56  0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <NDBIBOJJLNMJGBAA@angelfire.com>

Oh but Jesse, you *know* it will, don't you?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:11:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6879DD.8000106@yarranet.net.au>

Andrew Whincup wrote:

> IS Call of Traveller what I think it is?


Unfortunately no. He was just using the system for characters and their skill rolls.

Although he did like the baddies from the core idea...

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:18:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

:)~
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Whincup [mailto:shanhat@angelfire.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?


Oh but Jesse, you *know* it will, don't you?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:24:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <m0tg6u0662ljlm7a7n7jrekqdms5jq7em9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B88DBCD6.24BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 5:47 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

> What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
> only" posting to the digest?
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 

I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in majordomo is set right (same
as the regular list).  Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't
have any hair left.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:29:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:29:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: FYI -- Minis First?
Message-ID: <200202120228.g1C2S8P14982@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
>Subject: FYI -- Minis First?
...
>I'm looking at the art for the Cardboard Heroes that are to go into the SDB
>deckplan packet, and two of them are "Crew w/Ship's Cat." This marks the
>first appearance, as far as I know, of a pet in any Traveller miniatures*
>set (unless we did one with a beaker way back when). Anyone who wants to
...

 "Alien Animals, Grenadier 1983.
  11 figures, 25mm. Requires some assembly; 12 pieces (ed- "in the
description" or "on the packing slip/manifest"*).
  Eleven Traveller alien animals including two human animal handlers/riders
(*plus several personal equipment accessories).
...
T-28 Bloodvark
T-29 Bloodvark Guard
...
T-33 Kian
...
T-35 Rider "

  We'd have to interrogate some of the above to understand their
relationship - although if the guard works for MYMINES then we
can assume that the Bloodvark is an indentured labourer? :)

  Is there a GURPS disad: "is a pet"?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 02:30:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:30:31 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
References: <200202111729.g1BHTbR19611@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C687E47.FE5A0DD8@ameritech.net>


> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
>
> Dear Sir and Madam,
>
> We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> lifting capacity.
>
> Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> price. If you are interested, please contact us at:

What, no Striker stats?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:15:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
In-Reply-To: <3C687E47.FE5A0DD8@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <003c01c1b373$80485700$0f01a8c0@terry>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com [mailto:owner-
> tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> 
> 
> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >
> > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >
> > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > lifting capacity.
> >
> > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> 
> What, no Striker stats?

Keyboard kill!

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 11 23:41:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:41:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>

Whilst riding my bicycle back to the ship one fine saturday afternoon in
Alameda's pubs, I happened to go down a hill and began passing some vehicular
traffic which was being followed by a police cruiser. Moments after passing said
cruiser the siren goes off, tires squeal and I jump off the road to avoid what I
think is a car chase. Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and
asks me if I know how fast I was going? Eventually I wound up in court and was
convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture and a fine
for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give me a sobriety test as I
wouldn't have passed.

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>      "Ditto on what Mr. Berry said.  I'm pretty sure I would have heard
> mention if there had been regular STD testing during the 20 years or more
> preceding my time in.  I was 1980-86."
>
> Sir,
>
>      I'll back you up on that one too.  '81 to '87 for me and the only time
> there was an STD check was in November of '86 prior to what would have been
> my third WestPac.
>      They drew blood for no expressed reason and, a few weeks later, removed
> ~3 men from a ~600 man crew.  Seems they were checking for HIV.  It was the
> height of that particular scare and DoD had promised those nations the ship
> would be visiting that the crew would screened.  My friends who stayed in
> said it was the first and last time they were screened for a STD.
>      Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose is something
> entirely different!
>
>      "The example that comes most to mind is that most African-American
> troops stationed in Germany who I've talked to found that they were
> basically hated, much more than our white troops."
>
>      "...it being much easier to spot an American soldier as American when
> the black skin makes it a dead giveaway."
>
>      I noticed that each time I deployed too.  Once we were west of Pearl
> Harbor, the blacks in the crew were treated horribly during port calls.  The
> Phillipines were probably the least offensive, but still no walk in the
> park.  Be it Singapore, Thailand, Oz, Pakistan, Qatar, the Gulf, wherever we
> went, they were treated very poorly.  Oddly enough, the place where they
> recieved the most grief was Kenya of all places.  I tried to hail a cab for
> some shipmates there and nearly lost an arm and a leg when the cabbie
> realized his passengers would be black and sped off.
>      I've seen the same behavior on business trips too.  A co-worker of mine
> was treated with extreme contempt by our "hosts" in Lagos.  She wasn't the
> only female in our group, but she was the only black.  They didn't like her
> personal name either.
>      Go figure.
>
>      "It isn't just a case of being in another country.  Every large
> military base inside the States has pretty much the same problem in
> relations with its local town."
>
>      Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass.  Alameda, CA, the town outside of
> NAS Alameda used jaywalking tickets as a handle on us.  I couldn't even
> estimate the number I paid over four years at 25 USD a pop.
>      Of course when the bases close, they all scream about losing those DoD
> paychecks.  Alameda loathed us, but two supercarrier crews and two cruiser
> crews drop a lot of scoots in local coffers.  Stay away, but give us the
> dough.
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:31:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:31:53
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F227MDrxxnSYe4nhrKt000198c5@hotmail.com>

It was customary, at least in the Viet Nam era AF in a working group 
situation, for officers to address the sergeants as Sergeant (sometimes 
Sarge) or by their last name, and only if you knew them very well by a 
nickname or first name. If someone outside the group was present, it was 
more formal, Sergeant or Sergeant Jones (or whatever). In return, officers 
were always addressed as Sir or by rank.

Among officers, you never addressed a senior officer by anything other than 
as Sir or his rank unless invited and that only occurred if he was within 
one or two ranks of you and you had been working together for awhile. With 
someone of the same rank, first names were generally automatic.

What was your experience in the other services?

John L.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
>Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to hear 
>it.
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:24:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202111737300.3183-100000@harper.uchicago.ed u>
 <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211222335.02047bf0@mail.charter.net>

I started watching SU2 this season. I usually come close to falling off the 
couch laughing.
It seems some tightass at UPN is cancelling it two....Grrr....

At 05:57 PM 2/11/2002 -0800, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 05:50 PM 2/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.
>
>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC 
>massacres.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:41:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:41:40 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <15d.8d40a42.2999e8f4@aol.com>

Michael Taylor writes:

>I must have missed that one. I thought only TNE and T4 had failed, but
>that previous versions were popular and well-recieved. 

 Loren has said on several occasions, and I feel safe in repeating: TNE did 
not fail.

 To add my own spin to that, I'll opine that TNE "failed" the same way that a 
retail store that consistently exceeds its goals "fails" to keep the chain HQ 
from filing for bankruptcy.

 Perhaps TNE "failed" to keep (or gain) your interest, but the TNE mailing 
list weathered a near-year-long server failure, and *still* has a better 
signal-to-noise ratio than the TML has had in many years.

|-

 T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways. May Ken Whitman and Courtney 
Solomon burn for eternity.

 Despite the earlier discussions on "what is canon?" coming to the conclusion 
(in at least one case) that Canon was what Marc Miller says it is, I hold the 
entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost entirely 
wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in the 
previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch seminar 
at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled faithful and 
rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before them 
until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

 T4 does have its bright spots, but most people won't agree what they are.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 03:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <F227MDrxxnSYe4nhrKt000198c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211225655.020a4688@192.168.0.1>

As one former Naval officer wrote in his books:

"The Admiral and I were on a first name basis.  He called me Dick, and I 
called him Admiral."

At 03:31 AM 2/12/2002 +0000, John Lambert wrote:
>It was customary, at least in the Viet Nam era AF in a working group 
>situation, for officers to address the sergeants as Sergeant (sometimes 
>Sarge) or by their last name, and only if you knew them very well by a 
>nickname or first name. If someone outside the group was present, it was 
>more formal, Sergeant or Sergeant Jones (or whatever). In return, officers 
>were always addressed as Sir or by rank.
>Among officers, you never addressed a senior officer by anything other 
>than as Sir or his rank unless invited and that only occurred if he was 
>within one or two ranks of you and you had been working together for 
>awhile. With someone of the same rank, first names were generally automatic.
>What was your experience in the other services?
>John L.
>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>>Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to 
>>hear it.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
>burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
>That's our story and we're sticking to it.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:47:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:47:28 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
Message-ID: <49.18549b11.2999f860@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/02 9:27:24 PM Central Standard Time, 
tmixon@houston.rr.com writes:


> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> > >
> > > Dear Sir and Madam,
> > >
> > > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > > lifting capacity.
> > >
> > > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> 

Saw this on rec.humor.funny on how to deal with Chinese Spam

[submitter's note: my brother-in-law is a world-class spam fighter, 
and he sent this along for my amusement. I'm sharing it with his permission.]

The government just ordered all ISPs in China to start monitoring
email for subversive phrases and the like, so I started replying to
Chinese spam with little replies of the form at the end of this spam.
Might be a useful tactic on companies who think that unsolicited 
email is "just regular advertising".

Bill

"Jack(export manager)" wrote:
>
> Dear Sir
> How are you .
>
> We are a lighting factory in China ,It is glad 
> to introduce ourselves to you:
>
> I am XUBIN (Jack) , XUBIN is my chinese name , you can just
> call me Jack  !! , I am export manager of [deleted] ,
> China, our group have four factory
[snipped]
>
> Here is our company profile :
>

[Rest of sales talk snipped]

(And now, the reply)

Thank you for your coded order. The weapons and ammunition 
will ship by way of the usual route in ten days, and you 
already know our secret Swiss bank account number to 
wire the payment to.

It is a pleasure doing business with you for so long, 
and I hope your cause will prevail. I am new to this 
particular computer, so I hope the encryption is 
working and the monitoring authorities cannot read 
what I am sending you.

Long live the Falun Gong! Free Tibet!

Best regards,
Your arms supplier
---
ObTrav:  Irritating smartass hackers causing international incidents or 
fomenting government activity....how likely?


Michael Breen
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:21:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:21:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b88e48466e15@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:00 PM -0800 2/9/02, Justin Bunnell wrote:
>4) Blood loss.  The GURPS rules only stop blood loss on a cricitcal success.
>How well does clotting stop non-major artery hits anyway?

Or if you make 3 HT rolls in a row  Successful first Aid 
automatically stops bleeding.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 04:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:27:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330101b88df09e0517@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM +1100 2/11/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Justin Bunnell wrote :-
>>  2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?
>
>No - but hits that don't traverse the middle third of the chest
>(great vessels, oesophagus, trachea, heart) can be tolerated
>for hours, potentially.
>
>The rapidity of blood loss is the key determinant.
>This also covers your question about the (prompt) lethality of torso
>hits; they're not so unless the vitals are struck (and maybe not even then).

It is generally acknowledged in GURPS (at least amongst those that I 
interact with...) the that bleeding rules are not totally realistic 
but that, in fact, it is better that way.  Most people aren't 
interested in having their characters bleed to death.  There have 
been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger 
penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:20:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:20:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202120341.g1C3fqw25034@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212052227.PTJU319.dorsey@link>

Possibly, but I don't think so.  It always seems to come out in a puppyish
attempt at guessing the correct slang that a salty Marine would really
like.  Civilians have done **exactly** the same thing from time to time
also.  Usually gamer civilians who'd never had any real contact with any of
the four branches.

I was usually a fairly easy going NCO, as long as everyone performed up to
expected standards.  There were always a few who mistook my relaxed
leadership style for being a softy.  It never took long to change their
point of view if they were one of my own troops.  <very evil grin>

I preferred to treat people like adults who would honor their commitment to
being good Marines unless they proved by their actions/inactions that they
didn't deserve this.  On the other hand, the more Marines you get to know,
the more truth you see in the phrase Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.
<rueful smile>

It gladdens me to know you guys consider "sarge" just as verboten as we do.
 :->

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 18:48:50 -0600, "The Webbs" <webbs@journey.com> typed:
>>>
Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit I was ever
in.  Maybe they used that term in an un-honorable method when addressing
you, but you didn't catch on?  Privates love to play those kind of games.  A
good NCO normally picks up on them :)
<<<


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <20020212.002117.-326811.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


>  Despite the earlier discussions on "what is canon?" coming to the
conclusion 
> (in at least one case) that Canon was what Marc Miller says it is, I
hold the 
> entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost
entirely 
> wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in the 
> previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch
seminar 
> at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled faithful
and 
> rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before
them 
> until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

What was specifically said there?



Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:37:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:37:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts
Message-ID: <3C68A9FD.F6D13DA7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:15:19 -0600
> From: "tmixon" <tmixon@houston.rr.com>
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Sell Chinese Forklifts

<snip>

>> > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>> > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>> 
>> What, no Striker stats?
>
> Keyboard kill!
>
> Terry

Hey it's been a while since I got one of those. I wonder what my total
is now? Three?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:46:55 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
Message-ID: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>

In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
>  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
>  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
>  >
>  > Dear Sir and Madam,
>  >
>  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
>  > lifting capacity.
>  >
>  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>  
>  What, no Striker stats?

Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:44:34 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
Message-ID: <119.c71662b.299a05c2@aol.com>

In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, Tod L Glenn 
writes (in his sig):

> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

go to http://www.cafepress.com/irbwgren and you can buy a t-shirt with that 
sentiment . . . and get me a couple of bucks in the bargain.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:53:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
Message-ID: <20020211.215326.-70725.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:12:21 +1300 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 11 Feb 2002, at 18:48, The Webbs wrote:
> 
> > Previous Army NCO here.  "Sarge" was never acceptable in any unit 
> I was ever in.

You're obviously one of the NCO's I wouldn't have called "Sarge."
 
> I think it depends on the NCO. Over here some sergeants will tell 
> you it's okay  to call them "Sarge" in an informal setting, whereas
> others don't like it.

Depends on the units location, for sure.

When stationed at Ft Ord, Ca. USA everything was "by the book", but when
we transferred out to Camp Hunter Liggutt, we used L-T, Top, Sarge, and
my platoon leader actually ordered us to do the following"

   "Salute me and call me Sir the first thing in the morning, and the
last thing in the evening. The rest of the day wave and call me by my
first name. But when Brass comes down from Ft Ord, it's by the books, or
else."

We had it easy. But in Germany the hard core took over including the
slogan "Fourty Rounds, Sir!" while saluting any officer.


Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 05:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:57:48 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>

> T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways.

I offer several data points in chronological order:

- I wrote to Imperium Games asking for employment.

- They refused, saying they had all the full-time staff the needed, but I was 
(eventually) offered part-time work (and was one of the lucky few, evidently, 
who actually got paid).

- Steve Jackson made me an offer I could not refuse.

- Imperium Games went belly up.

- I'm starting my 5th year at SJ Games.

Draw your own conclusions . . .

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:12:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:12:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <200202112303.g1BN3df22721@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>

I'm thinking of maybe, possibly, perhaps, landgrabbing Pscias.  It is a
red-zoned world of very low pop and very low tech in the Regina subsector,
in between Roup and Enope.

Does anyone know of another landgrab claim impinging on this?

Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
Landgrab references?

Thanks in advance.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:18:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
References: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >  >
> >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >  >
> >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> >  > lifting capacity.
> >  >
> >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> >
> >  What, no Striker stats?
> 
> Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

All your pallet are belong to us.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:27:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
In-Reply-To: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1b38e$4f3e5ea0$2f7de40c@loki>

And many of us are thankful to

* Steve for bringing you on board
* You for being who you are
* Marc, you and the crew at GDW for being who you were

Okay. I'm a sentimental fool who has enjoyed uncounted thousands of
hours in Traveller.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:49:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <B88DFB17.24D86%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 10:12 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> I'm thinking of maybe, possibly, perhaps, landgrabbing Pscias.  It is a
> red-zoned world of very low pop and very low tech in the Regina subsector,
> in between Roup and Enope.
> 
> Does anyone know of another landgrab claim impinging on this?
> 
> Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
> Landgrab references?

Landgrab home is at http://www.downport.com/landgrab IIRC

Also available at http://www.spinwardmarches.com

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:32:01 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
fires
>a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>whole different matter.

They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?

I've never heard of TeleShot.  How does it work?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:31:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:31:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
>
>IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
>Traveller. It took about five minutes.

This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:31:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Aiming and Hit location.  REAL LIFE DATA

[My quotation from Sheridan's The Rivals -- my favorite dialogue from my
mercifully brief stage career -- is omitted.]

>I have no idea whether you're agreeing with me or not. Are you a
politician?

In my hapkido class are three lawyers, including myself.  Two of us were in
class last week when we had a contest between two teams, and our instructor
was not sure which team won.  He asked the other lawyer and me which one
won, but I demurred, saying, "with all due respect, Suhbumnim, if you ask
two lawyers a question like that you'll get four different and conflicting
opinions."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 07:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:32:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
>massacres.

What's CSI?  It appears to be worth a look.

--Glenn

P.S.  The **best** show on television is any program on the Weather Channel.
The weather is like any kind of hard work:  I like it so much I can watch it
all day.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:05:28 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88E0CC7.24DB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 11:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>> ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>> penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
> fires
>> a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>> whole different matter.
> 
> They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
> to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?

No, but I'll look into it.
> 
> I've never heard of TeleShot.  How does it work?

Teleshot was developed by AAI corporation using metal forming techniques
from the metal can industry.  In essence, a folded metal 'baloon' is used to
contain the propellant gases.  As the propellant ignites, the combustion
gases violently inflate , but do not pierce the 'baloon'.  The baloon acts
on a polymer pusher that expels the projectiles.  It makes a lot more sense
if you look at a photo.

http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html

There are pictures of fire and unfired teleshot, as well as SCMITR flechette
and other loads.

Note that most of the information here is accurate, just Travellerized.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:23:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:23:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <200202120341.g1C3fqw25034@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16aYCb-00005Z-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> > > Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to >
> Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and >
> missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the >
> same.
> 
> Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
> evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
> the nubility?

True, but it also has truly awesome writing and has had some 
episodes that are quite literally the best things I've seen on TV.  
The musical ep this season ("Once More With Feeling") was a 
perfect send up of the genre and was exceptionally well done.  The 
ep last season where Buffy's mom died ("The Body") was the 
single best drama I've ever seen on TV.  Joss Whedon does 
amazingly good work, and I'm very much looking forward to Firefly.  

At minimum it will be *far* better than the last two Star Treks. 
Voyager truly sucked, and in addition to the vile morality of the 
plague ep, Enterprise's is *really* dull.  The characters are even 
more cardboard than on most new Trek (and that's far from easy).

And yes, I know a hell of a lot about Buffy, so much so that in a 
couple of weeks I'll start work on a supplement for the upcoming 
Buffy RPG :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:51:14 +1300
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <B88DBCD6.24BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEHKHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
> > What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get
> > past the "members only" posting to the digest?
>
> I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in
> majordomo is set right (same as the regular list).
> Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't

You have two lists ?

Most mailing hosts I'm familiar with have a single list, and the
list generates digest posts at the same time as normal posts,
just batching and sending them at pre-configured times and/or
when the digest gets to a certain size.

If you are forwarding all mail to the "main" list to a _seperate_
list that is running  the digest, then it is possible that the
software you are using is not applying the same restrictions on
remote posting to mail being transferred within itself.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:24:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus
> smaller states in western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's
> not actually that variable.

I'm now not quite sure what you mean by tech level.  I'm using the
term to roughly mean the technology of the items that a nation can
produce.  In the case of TL 7, that means space rockets, jet fighters,
plastics, electronic computers, etc.  By this definition, China,
Russia and even India are TL 7.  I use TL 6 and below to refer to
countries (or planets) that lack the ability to produce most or all
such things.

Going by GURPS, no nation on Earth has quite reached TL 8 yet; almost
all of the items GURPS classifies as TL 8 don't even have functional
prototypes in labs yet.  We're getting close though :)


> Well, my point is that the only sensible definition of a world's TL
> in traveller is that it's a direct measure of wealth, and is only
> incidentally related to the actual capabilities of the manufacturing
> base.

I don't think it's useful to define tech level as *meaning* wealth,
there's already a perfectly good term "wealth" to cover that concept.
If you eliminate the phrase "tech level" from meaning technological
capability, what do you propose to replace it with?  I think the
concept behind the phrase is an important one, and of interest to
Travellers: "What do they make here; what can I buy?"

Whatever you like to call it, the relationship between the
technological capability of a planets to manufacture goods, and
wealth, is an interesting one which was the point of my original post.

Strongly correlated, but not perfectly linked.


>  I can't think of any real-world examples of a TL 3 or 4 serious
> manufacturing base;

Not in the last hundred years or so, no.  But *plenty* a few centuries
ago.


> There's a difference between 'europe in the middle ages' (TL 3) and
> modern afghanistan (probably also TL 3); they have _totally_
> different economics.  I argue that the latter is a more accurate
> model of a TL 7 economy in Traveller than the former.

As in, by comparison with the Imperium's general TL F?  If so, I tend
to agree.  Some such planets *will* be strife-ravaged wastelands with
the bulk of trade consisting of illegal goods.

But I don't think it's a given that *most* TL7 planets will be like
Afghanistan.

I think quite a large proportion, probably most, will be planets that
have significant natural resources and quite decent economic
structure, but without the population base to sustain an ultra-tech
infrastructure.  Or frontier areas that have the capability to develop
high-tech production worlds in a few centuries, but aren't there yet.
Or more specilased planets that don't want or need to produce
high-tech goods themselves.

Granted, not many will be *similar* in economic structure to the
United States.  Many will be richer, since their inhabitants will have
use of high-tech tools and gadgets beyond anything that a modern-day
human can utilise (even if they can't manufacture them themselves).

A real-life Earth analogy might be a mining or farming region;
producing little or no TL 7 goods themselves, maybe about TL 5.  But
using TL 7 equipment to produce far more than a pure TL 5 could ever
hope to achieve, and with inhabitants far wealthier on average than
Earth's 18th century.

And of course, some TL 7 planets *will* be poorer than the US;
possibly because they *are* strife-ravaged wastelands, or suffering
economic mismanagment, oppression, and/or natural disaster.  The
planet's Law Level and government type may give some clue toward
man-made disasters.  But nothing substitutes for actually getting
reliable information from other Travellers who've been there.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:28:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:28:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
References: <E16aYCb-00005Z-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <025401c1b3b0$029f60e0$8dcdd63f@customer>

There's going to be a Buffy RPG!! How long till it's out, and from whom will
it be?

John Scarlett
Crawling back into my hole.
----- Original Message -----
From: <sneadj@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] New TV Series?


> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 05:50:04PM -0600, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> > > > Sorry if I've gone off-topic, but it's important to respond to >
> > Buffy-bashing.  I made the mistake of judging it by appearances and >
> > missed the first two seasons, so it hurts to watch others do the >
> > same.
> >
> > Buffy _should_ be judged on appearances.  Nubile young girls fight
> > evil with much flexing of nubile arms and nubile legs.  Did I mention
> > the nubility?
>
> True, but it also has truly awesome writing and has had some
> episodes that are quite literally the best things I've seen on TV.
> The musical ep this season ("Once More With Feeling") was a
> perfect send up of the genre and was exceptionally well done.  The
> ep last season where Buffy's mom died ("The Body") was the
> single best drama I've ever seen on TV.  Joss Whedon does
> amazingly good work, and I'm very much looking forward to Firefly.
>
> At minimum it will be *far* better than the last two Star Treks.
> Voyager truly sucked, and in addition to the vile morality of the
> plague ep, Enterprise's is *really* dull.  The characters are even
> more cardboard than on most new Trek (and that's far from easy).
>
> And yes, I know a hell of a lot about Buffy, so much so that in a
> couple of weeks I'll start work on a supplement for the upcoming
> Buffy RPG :)
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:30:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:30:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)
References: <20020211.164159.-224321.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <026301c1b3b0$56c2af60$8dcdd63f@customer>

Thanks

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: <knightsky@juno.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: [TML] World Tamer's Handbook (TNE)


> Does anyone need a copy of the TNE World Tamer's Handbook?  I ask this
> because there is a dutch auction (not mine) on eBay where someone has 100
> copies of WTH for sale.  The link is
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1702927269&r=0&t=0
> &showTutorial=0&ed=1013825429&indexURL=0&rd=1.  I somewhat doubt that
> there will be 100 people bidding on this item, so anyone who needs a copy
> can proably get it for the minimum bid of $9.95, plus $4.50 P&H.  Hope
> this is of help to anyone who has been looking for a copy of this
> particulat supplement.
>
>
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:35:25 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
References: <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower
> or higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?

Of course it is.  The GM just says "Despite its TL of 6, this world
has a per-capita GWP of 3000 CrImp/year".  ;^>

I don't think this is at all unreasonable.  A world may have a very
strong economy without producing high-tech goods.  Particularly if
what they do produce is in very high demand elsewhere (e.g. rare
elements).  Conversely, a world may be poor despite the ability to
produce high-tech goods for any number of reasons.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:41:34 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C68E34E.3000409@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:01 AM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> US Army slang, not USMC.  :->
>>
>> I stopped at a gas station on the interstate highway past December and a
>> small US Army convoy pulled in.  I heard one of the sergeants address 
>> his
>> lieutenant this way.  In front of the troops and everything.  <part 
>> humor
>> part serious>Bah, don't they have any discipline or respect?</part humor
>> part serious>
>> --Laning
>
>
> For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, 
> and others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
> recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
> Same thing with "Sarge", some NCOs didn't mind, others didn't want to 
> hear it.
>
>
any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat 
effectivness' ?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:39:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:39:41 -0600
Subject: [TML] Revenge of the TE
Message-ID: <029101c1b3b1$95451380$8dcdd63f@customer>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

As an IRS worker I resemble that remark. >:{|



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:46:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:46:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C68E467.E379542B@premier.net>



"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> >From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
> >
> >IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
> in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
> to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
> >Traveller. It took about five minutes.
> 
> This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
> brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.

So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
method of neutralization.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:03:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:03:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>

At 08:35 PM 2/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>> Is it possible to have a TL world whose Per capita income is lower
>> or higher than the "averages" within FarTrader?
>
>Of course it is.  The GM just says "Despite its TL of 6, this world
>has a per-capita GWP of 3000 CrImp/year".  ;^>
>
>I don't think this is at all unreasonable.  A world may have a very
>strong economy without producing high-tech goods.  Particularly if
>what they do produce is in very high demand elsewhere (e.g. rare
>elements).  Conversely, a world may be poor despite the ability to
>produce high-tech goods for any number of reasons.

There was a section in WORLD TAMER'S HANDBOOK that talked about
infrastructure and all that - along with POCKET EMPIRES.  I would suggest
that the US is very well developed infrastructure wise, and the rest of the
world is less so



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:13:56 +1300
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Justin Bunnell wrote :
>
> 2) Hits to non-vital chest areas.  Is there one?

Yes. You can get your tit shot off.

The problem is with your assumption here, and in the rest of your
comments about other locations, is that the hit impacts the body
square on.

The majority of impacts do not, and will graze, bounce, and
otherwise avoid vital organs due to this. Deflections off the rib
cage and other bones are common, though these can serve to make
the wound worse than it would have been rather than better.

For example a non-vital head wound can remove an ear, your nose,
or even an eye, without seriously affecting your ability to
continue fighting (assuming you're not one  of those who
immediately goes into hysterics after being wounded)

Arm hits can remove fingers in a simlar manner.

These wounds _may_ result in death after the combat due to
infection, blood loss or shock, but do not neccesasaily remove
one from combat.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:13:57 +1300
Subject: [TML] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Laning wrote :
> > --Laning "Don't Call Me Sir" Polatty of the TML
> > (Proud to have made sergeant (E-5) in **only** five
> > years in the USMC.  No sarcasm.  There were two
> > years when not one single person in my entire MOS
> > made corporal.  In retrospect,  if I'd done a stint
> > on the drill field I might have moved faster.  It
> > probably would have made a better Marine of me, too.)

My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
years ??
They must have a terrible retention rate.

No-one would take such a young sergeant seriously over here.

> Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.

Took me four to reach LAC, and that isn't even a rank, just a
"classification"

We weren't _allowed_ to be given that classification until after
we'd completed our senior technical course (13 months) , and
_that_ couldn't happen until we'd spent at least a year on the
job, and that couldn't happen until after junior technical course
(six months), which couldn't happen until after Basic Engineering
(four months), which couldn't happen until after recruit course
(equivalent of boot camp)(nine months).

Minimum length of service to become a sergeants in our trade was
about 10 years, and that would be unusual, as a position had to
open up for you to be promoted to fill it. Usually between 12 and
15 years.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:57:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:57:24 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGECDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Ugh. I wrote :-
> I have never seen an acute tension pneumothorax (injury ->
> death within 5 minutes).

This is ambiguous.
I have not seen or heard of a tension pneumothorax developing
fast enough that the time from precipitation, regardless of
mechanism, to cardiac arrest was less than about thirty minutes.

It takes time to trap a lethal amount of air.

Adding gas bubbles directly into the bloodstream, on the other hand,
can cause cardiac standstill within thirty seconds. But that's
another set of horror stories.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:55:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b88df09e0517@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGACDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3C69AB8F.25269.346CF4@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 20:27, David P. Summers wrote:

> It is generally acknowledged in GURPS (at least amongst those that I 
> interact with...) the that bleeding rules are not totally realistic 
> but that, in fact, it is better that way.  Most people aren't 
> interested in having their characters bleed to death.  There have 
> been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger 
> penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.

I've got a really simple one that never gets used when we do play GURPS (nor 
does the official one, for that matter). If you get hit in the vitals or neck 
by anything that makes holes roll HT. If you fail lose 1 hit point per two 
turns until dead or healed. Simple and more realistic than most bleeding rules.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 06:45:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:45:11 PST
Subject: [TML] Reaction by-products
In-Reply-To: <20020124150242.32178.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20211.224511.2x3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I need the help of some of you experts.
>
> What is the by-product of a Fusion reaction.  As I
> understand it, duterium (or something similar) is the
> fuel, but what is the "waste" and more importantly, is
> it radioactive at all?

Depends on the fusion reaction being used.

The best (and hardest to manage) reaction is:

4 H1 -> 1 He4

(4 normal hydrogen fused to make one Helium atom)

But there are lots of others. Most of which have leftover neutrons
(which can induce radioactivity in materiald they get absorbed by) or
produce Tritium (H3) or Helium 3 (He3). Tritium is radioactive. I don't
recall if He3 is. 

There are also reactions involving various lithium and boron isotopes,
but they aren't apt to be used much simply because the elements in
question are prety rare and the isotopes used are even rarer.

> I would like the answer for both a reactor and for a
> reaction type drive (like HEPlaR).

Most fusion reactors *will* emit *lots* of netrons. Which *will* make
the nearby portions of the reactor radioactive. 

Really advanced ones won't. But they'll be pretty high TL.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 10:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:45:48 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re : GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEGECDAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote (of chest wounds) :-

> Unless you're unfortunate enough to get a tension pneumothorax
> - then you die pretty quick.

Not really ; the determinants are the rapidity of the air leak,
the rise in intrathoracic pressure [has a one-way valve been established?]
and the compliance of the chest contents.
There's actually a fair amount of give in the
mediastinum and lungs before things get problematic.

I have never seen an acute tension pneumothorax (injury ->
death within 5 minutes). I have stuck in my fair share (a few hundred) chest
drains and done about a dozen needle decompressions over my last five years
'at the office' [Intensive Care + theatre].

David Summers wrote :-
> Most people aren't interested in having their characters bleed to death.
> There have been some suggestions on alternate rules, most involve bigger
> penalties for the number of hit points one has lost.

Fair enough.
Using real-world trauma data though, there doesn't appear to be significant
deterioration in performance until decompensated shock sets in, unless
the damage is massive (promptly dead or dying) or psychologically-based
incapacitation occurs.

The time until this occurs would appear to correlate best with injury
severity.

Hmm...
i. When a wound is sustained, make a Will roll.
On a failure, the character is demoralised.
On a spectacular failure the character is stunned.
Recheck next turn to see if they can act.

ii. Make a HT roll every turn.
On a spectacular failure, the character loses consciousness for 1d minutes.
Make HT rolls every minute after this to see if they wake up.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:04:10 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020211.215326.-70725.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C69AD7A.20769.3BED96@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2002, at 21:53, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> When stationed at Ft Ord, Ca. USA everything was "by the book", but when
> we transferred out to Camp Hunter Liggutt, we used L-T, Top, Sarge, and
> my platoon leader actually ordered us to do the following"
> 
>    "Salute me and call me Sir the first thing in the morning, and the
> last thing in the evening. The rest of the day wave and call me by my
> first name. But when Brass comes down from Ft Ord, it's by the books, or
> else."

That sounds very similar to standard policy on most bases and in most units in 
the NZ Army. Salute and greet officers when you first see them in the day, and 
when you last expect to see them that day. In between times don't salute or 
brace to attention, but still call them "Sir", or "Mister Hercock" if they're a 
Lieutenant and cool with it - some aren't as while technically correct it's 
often used as a bit of an insult. As you say this does not apply during 
official visits from brass.

Much the same went for NCOs - greet them formally first thing in the morning 
and last thing at night. In between call them "Ross" or "Barnsey", but when 
it's formal, which includes when officers are 'officially' present (rather than 
just passing through, having a smoke out the back with you, etc.) it's 
"Corporal" or "Corporal Barnes". This particular Corporal would murder anyone 
who called him "Barnes", BTW. With sergeants and up these rules only applied to 
other NCOs, not privates (and if they were a CSM, etc. not really to Lance 
Corporals or Corporals, no matter what said CSM might say).


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:11:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:11:45 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_address?=
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C69AF41.22903.42DCCB@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 23:13, Frank Pitt wrote:

> My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
> years ??
> They must have a terrible retention rate.
> 
> No-one would take such a young sergeant seriously over here.

And if they were made to they'd seriously resent it.
 
> > Took me five years to make Lance Corporal.
> 
> Took me four to reach LAC, and that isn't even a rank, just a
> "classification"

Remember I was in the TF, which has a terrible retention rate (about a three 
year turn over, IIRC).
 
> We weren't _allowed_ to be given that classification until after
> we'd completed our senior technical course (13 months) , and
> _that_ couldn't happen until we'd spent at least a year on the
> job, and that couldn't happen until after junior technical course
> (six months), which couldn't happen until after Basic Engineering
> (four months), which couldn't happen until after recruit course
> (equivalent of boot camp)(nine months).

Well, I never got my rank made permanent because for that you have to have 
passed the JNCO's course, and budget considerations menat that every time I was 
nominated for one it was cancelled or defered. Thus I was a temporary Lance 
Corporal for three years (the only real difference is that permanent rank pays 
a little better). :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:14:11 +1300
Subject: [TML] GURPS and RL Gunshot Wounds
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEOKDCAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C69AFD3.19797.4518A1@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 23:13, Frank Pitt wrote:

> For example a non-vital head wound can remove an ear, your nose,
> or even an eye, without seriously affecting your ability to
> continue fighting (assuming you're not one  of those who
> immediately goes into hysterics after being wounded)

Also pistol bullets that hit the skull at an oblique angle (like towrds the 
side of the head for a frontal shot) are sometimes deflected without doing much 
immediate damage. Having your opponent drop from concussion sometime later is 
of little use _right now_.



-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:18:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:18:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: ATTN: Listmom
In-Reply-To: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <pduh6u8b5f0rp72bl631hot5vkcf43puup@4ax.com>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:46:48 -0800 (PST), "Frank Pitt"
<frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>Tod Glenn wrote :
>> jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
>> > What's with the spam?  Why is it _still_ able to get
>> > past the "members only" posting to the digest?

>> I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in
>> majordomo is set right (same as the regular list).
>> Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I won't

>You have two lists ?

>Most mailing hosts I'm familiar with have a single list, and the
>list generates digest posts at the same time as normal posts,
>just batching and sending them at pre-configured times and/or
>when the digest gets to a certain size.

>If you are forwarding all mail to the "main" list to a _seperate_
>list that is running  the digest, then it is possible that the
>software you are using is not applying the same restrictions on
>remote posting to mail being transferred within itself.

No, I think I have a possible reason that this is happening; I checked the
Majordomo FAQ.  Listmom, contact me privately via email or meet me in
#traveller on Undernet any evening, and we can try to thrash this out.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:35:29 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BTML=5D_Re:_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>

On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
>
> Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.

I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Nothing quite beats taking turns on a bicycle drunk, with the bikes
mere inches from the pavement.  Those were the days...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 12:02:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:02:31 +0100
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Listmom
Message-ID: <F599AnfWf17rSWEr9rA00003261@hotmail.com>




>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>on 2/11/02 5:47 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
>
>>What's with the spam? Why is it _still_ able to get past the "members
>>only" posting to the digest?
>>--
>>Jeff Zeitlin
>>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>>
>
>I know, It's driving me crazy.  Everything in majordomo is set right (same 
>as the regular list).  Regular list stops it, digest doesn't.  Soon, I 
>won't have any hair left.
>
>Tod

Have you tried USENET, the mayordomo mailing list or similar?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:01:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] Revenge of the TE
References: <029101c1b3b1$95451380$8dcdd63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000301c1b3c2$46adb0e0$0a69893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> The difference between the IRS and the Sopranos is the Sopranos have a
> code of honour.                                    --Byron Himmelheber

Also, the IRS sings better.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C68FC7D.DD3CEEAD@mindspring.com>

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

http://www.spinwardmarches.com/

The first link gets you to a list of who grabbed what. The second takes you to
the landgrabbers landgrab. The only reference I remember about Pscias is in
"The Traveller Adventure" I believe they're one of the few worlds that don't
dislike Psionics in the 3I.

Laning wrote:Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or
other

> Landgrab references?
>
>

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:58:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BAC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020211175628.009f5450@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C691F8A.C80277E9@sitraka.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> *ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
> interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
> massacres.

The Tolkein tie-in is rather wierd though. I remember Ents being bigger,
but man, those actors have to be Ents 'cause they are wooooood-en.

<groans>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 09:22:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (AB)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:22:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Four
Message-ID: <000601c1b3cc$54e3cc80$11111111@horace>

In Russian:

Chetarye (che-ta-rye) = Four

Cheers.

Andrew Brown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:54:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Reaction by-products
Message-ID: <F25K8YkJeaXfTK105ci00003930@hotmail.com>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>Tritium is radioactive. I don't
>recall if He3 is.

Helium-3 is a stable but very rare isotope.  It's a bit OT, but there's an 
interesting article from a couple of years back on its viability as a fusion 
fuel and lunar "cash crop" at

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html

According to the article, the neutron flux of the He3-He3 reaction would be 
about two orders of magnitude lower than D-T (the energy yield is pretty 
good too, IIRC).

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 13:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:10:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary
 stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com> <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>

As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states,
but is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got
me though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike
and was told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. I had
really expected the charge to be dismissed. Just another lesson in the basic
unfairness of life.

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
> >
> > Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> > know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> > convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> > and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> > me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.
>
> I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
> make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
> will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
> certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
> more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
> more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.
>
> Nothing quite beats taking turns on a bicycle drunk, with the bikes
> mere inches from the pavement.  Those were the days...
>
> --
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
>   - object or person outside the car 30%
>   - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
>   - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
>   - cellular phones 1.5%
>      --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:39:05 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <14d.8c64e63.299a9119@aol.com>

Perry writes:

>>I hold the entirely of T4 up to the strong light of canon and find it almost
>>entirely wanting. Partly this is the fault of the two fellows mentioned in 
the
>> previous paragraph, and partly because I was present at the T4 launch
>>seminar at Gencon 96, where I watched Marc stand before the assembled
>>faithful and rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up 
before
>>them until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...
>
>What was specifically said there?

 Marc was happily explaining the whole Pocket Empires concept when something 
he said caught me wrong. I asked if we would retain the races and locations 
from previous incarnations in this setting, so that we might, for instance, 
find the Geonee, or the Vegans in their historical locations. His answer?

 "No. That would give older players too much advantage over new players."

 To be fair, the Geonee are a DGP thing, and as such are/were a delicate 
topic, but the attitude expressed disturbed a few of us old grognards (I 
recall the grim look on several HIWG member's faces after that seminar) and 
the reality became clearly manifest as the supplements appeared: this was not 
the same universe, or if it was then all that had come before was worthless.

 GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:44:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:44:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
Message-ID: <3C693841.BBFFC4FC@mail.cswnet.com>

>>> Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
>>> price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
>>  
>> What, no Striker stats?
>
>Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

Keyboard kill [with secondary detonations].

Yes, it hurts. Alot.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:44:48 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88E786F.24EDF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/11/02 11:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> You missed the 'special loads' part. The secret of the shotgun is in its
>> ammunition.  A snub pistol fires a round of a mere 10mm.  An HEAP round's
>> penetration is related to the diameter of the shaped charge. A shotgun
> fires
>> a nominal 18.5mm projectile.  Use an shotgun HEAP round and it becomes a
>> whole different matter.
> 
> They didn't ask for special loads, so they got buckshot.  You don't happen
> to have Megatraveller stats for the special loads you described, do you?
> 

Glenn,

Here's a first pass at MT stats.  It's comma delimited for import into your
favorite spreadsheet:

Ammo Notes,Rds,Pen/Aten,Dmg,Max
Range,Autofire,Danger,Signature,Recoil,Difficulty As
Pellets,10,1/1,4,Medium,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
Tranq,10,1/-,1,Medium,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
gas,10,-,1,Medium,3,-,Hi,Medium,Rifle
MSIP,10,2/1,4,Long,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
Flechette,10,2/3,2,Long,-,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
SCMITR,10,2/3,4,Long,,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
HE,10,3/-,4,V Long,-,4,Hi,Medium,Rifle
HEAP,10,11/-,5,V Long,,1.5,Hi,Medium,Rifle
TeleShot,10,1/1,4,Medium,,1.5,Low,Medium,Rifle


MSIP is Mass Stabilized Improved Projectile.  I have no idea what SCMITR
stands for, but this is the AAI flying razorblade flechette.  For more info,
check out "The Worlds Fighting Shotguns" by Thomas Swearengen. There are
picts of the ammo and weapons on my website at

http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons see ammo and shotguns

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:57:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Abraham Delnore)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
In-Reply-To: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>


When I was in college I had to write a campus newspaper article on
bicycling laws because the campus cops were starting to ticket--actually
they were starting to issue warnings, and I don't recall anyone receiving
a citation, but the threat was there.  Bottom line for Virginia and
the rest of the U.S. from talking to attorneys and police officers:  if
you're sitting on the seat and pedaling, you're a motor vehicle for
absolutely all purposes.  Obey all signs and signals, including stop and
one-way--this was the big problem on our campus; cyclists would cut up a
wide one-way street that had been so designated for traffic-quieting .
Signal all turns.  Drive on the right.  Control your speed.  Use the road,
not the sidewalk.

Of course these laws are almost never enforced, or I should say that
police officers almost never treat bicycles according to their proper legal
status.  Our campus police were saying they had "had complaints" and
"frequently noticed unsafe cycling practices."  Whatever you say, officer!

I wonder if there is a class of space vehicle in Traveller universes that
is analogous to the bicycle:  kids get around on them, they aren't
really regulated, etc.  Maybe some kind of eva suit in belter
communities?  "You never forget; it's just like piloting a thrust pack!"

--Abe Delnore

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| V. A. Delnore          	      vad9m@virginia.edu            |
| Graduate Student       	      delnore@clipper.ens.fr        |
| University of Virginia              48, bd. Jourdan               |
| Ecole Normale Superieure            75014 Paris France            |
| Mica mica parva stella miror quaenam sis tam bella  (Anon. lyric) |
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:02:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
Message-ID: <000001c1b3de$bdb74220$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." Any ideas, anyone?

MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of physics.

Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force.

The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature,

Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft, said: "we have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of and so far nothing works.

"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation of California.

Pioneer 10 was launched by NASA on March 2, 1972, and with Pioneer 11, it's twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the two probes are being effected by the gravitational pull of unknown planets beyond the solar system. Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar system. Data from these probes suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the Pioneers.
Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. "It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions of years,  which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Andrew Long   Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae   Or 
       P.O. Box 29030   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com   Or 
       Abu Dhabi    AndyLong@BigPond.com   
       United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254   Mobile  
           +971 (2) 671 0434   Home/Fax  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:01:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:01:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <3C68E34E.3000409@gmx.net>
References: <200202102346.g1ANkSc14097@rhylanor.cordite.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020211073025.009fe990@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212075811.009eb330@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 PM 2/12/02 +1100, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and 
>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my 
>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>
>Any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat 
>effectivness' ?

Not really.  Newly minted butterbars tend to be a bit more aware of their 
exalted status as officers and gentlemen, but most of the relax.  One of 
the most together officers I ever knew would go ballistic if you called him 
LT, while my platoon leader had no trouble with it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 15:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:57:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212075425.00a04ec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:32 PM 2/11/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs
> >interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual NPC
> >massacres.
>
>What's CSI?  It appears to be worth a look.

_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab, 
and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice 
thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss 
the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.

CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:18:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>
References: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212081815.009efbe0@mindspring.com>

At 12:18 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > Do not taunt Chinese forklift.
>
>All your pallet are belong to us.

Somebody set us up the crate!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:27:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
Message-ID: <F150ad2VqKwRPQIWDO300003d6d@hotmail.com>

>From: "Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
>
>This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily paper 
>in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." Any ideas, 
>anyone?
>
>MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
>Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

I remember reading the original BBC story about this last spring.  AFAIK, 
they still don't know the cause of this anomaly.

-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:17:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <ae.222dd5d7.299a064f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212081730.009eca00@mindspring.com>

At 12:46 AM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

And I have another new sig file


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:22:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:22:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3C68E467.E379542B@premier.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212082130.009fd880@mindspring.com>

At 03:46 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
>So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>method of neutralization.

I shall notify the Egg Board.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:05:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:05:14 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_?=
 Miltary stories
In-Reply-To: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
References: <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
 <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com>
 <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212080221.009f19e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:35 AM 2/12/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
>make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
>will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
>certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
>more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
>more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Sorry, but traffic laws apply to all vehicles using the road.  We've had a 
bike messenger convicted of vehicular manslaughter here in San Francisco 
(he blasted around a corner without looking, and hit a man in the 
crosswalk.  Guy died of head injuries.)

Having been a professional driver, let me assure you that the danger isn't 
what you can do, but the danger you pose to the other vehicles as they try 
to avoid you.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 16:06:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:06:33 -0800
Subject: [TML]
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Forms_of_military_?= address
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEHPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <3C685F01.10823.259895@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212080543.009ec550@mindspring.com>

At 11:13 PM 2/12/02 +1300, you wrote:
>My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
>years ??
>They must have a terrible retention rate.

It also might be that the USMC is a bit larger than the NZ forces.

Most US servicepeople do their four years and get out.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:41:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b3de$bdb74220$0200a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020212174136.92101.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com>

Aetheric turbulence.

--- Andrew Long <andrewglong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily
> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph."
> Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics
> 
> A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a
> force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of
> physics.
> 
> Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of
> Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back
> to the sun by an unknown force.
> 
> The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels
> deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility
> that the probe has revealed a new force of nature,
> 
> Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft,
> said: "we have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of
> and so far nothing works.
> 
> "If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and
> spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation
> of California.
> 
> Pioneer 10 was launched by NASA on March 2, 1972, and with Pioneer
> 11, it's twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
> Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
> distant planet in our solar system.
> 
> Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket
> motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power
> plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team
> says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all
> the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar
> radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.
> 
> The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the
> two probes are being effected by the gravitational pull of unknown
> planets beyond the solar system. Assertions by some scientists that
> the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been
> discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting
> Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar
> system. Data from these probes suggests the force is of the same
> strength as that found for the Pioneers.
> Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even
> such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. "It
> might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions
> of years,  which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also
> raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of
> gravity."
> 
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Andrew Long   Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae   Or 
>        P.O. Box 29030   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com   Or 
>        Abu Dhabi    AndyLong@BigPond.com   
>        United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254   Mobile  
>            +971 (2) 671 0434   Home/Fax  
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:37:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:37:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: Buffy the best?
Message-ID: <RELAY2B526tr5XsCj1d00002159@relay2.softcomca.com>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> writes:

> On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> > <scratching head>  Does kinda' ring a bell, doesn't it?  With any luck it
> > won't be "Buffy-in-Space" :)~
>
> What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None. 

ROTFLMAOASTC!!!  Ohh, jeez!  Stop it Greg.  You're killing me!

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 17:55:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:55:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > TL 7 (well, early TL 8 now) is basically the G7 nations, plus
> > smaller states in western europe and along the pacific rim.  It's
> > not actually that variable.
> 
> I'm now not quite sure what you mean by tech level.

Traveller isn't sure either.  I'm attempting to come up with a definition which
corresponds to real-world examples of primitive areas, which suggests that 'low
tech == poor'

> I don't think it's useful to define tech level as *meaning* wealth,
> there's already a perfectly good term "wealth" to cover that concept.
> If you eliminate the phrase "tech level" from meaning technological
> capability, what do you propose to replace it with?

The simple truth is, you'll be able to buy (very limited) GTL 10-12 goods on TL
7 worlds, unless they're totally disconnected from interstellar commerce, and
such worlds will use some GTL 10-12 goods; as an example, GTL 10 fusion
reactors are $10(at TL 10; $3 CrI)/kW, and with exchange rates are still only
around $30/kW (note that after exchange rates, the GWP of a TL 7 world is
$15,000/person), resulting in a cost of power on the order of $0.005/kWh,
assuming maintenance costs of 100%/year.  Ask any energy producer if they'd buy
that...


>  I think the
> concept behind the phrase is an important one, and of interest to
> Travellers: "What do they make here; what can I buy?"

In many cases the answer to the first one is 'pretty much nothing', and the
answer to the second one is 'whatever you can afford'.

> As in, by comparison with the Imperium's general TL F?  If so, I tend
> to agree.  Some such planets *will* be strife-ravaged wastelands with
> the bulk of trade consisting of illegal goods.
> 
> But I don't think it's a given that *most* TL7 planets will be like
> Afghanistan.

Many of them won't be wartorn, but the only reason for a world to be at TL 7 is
that it can't afford better.  Any wealthy world _will_ invest in higher-tech
toys, and will have their TL rise rapidly until it matches their wealth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 18:22:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:22:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
In-Reply-To: <3C68B3A2.5A86F9C0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOCEMFCDAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Keyboard Kill!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: February 11, 2002 10:18 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150




GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> 
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> >  >
> >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> >  >
> >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> >  > lifting capacity.
> >  >
> >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> >
> >  What, no Striker stats?
> 
> Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

All your pallet are belong to us.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:04:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:04:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <IGKDMCGCIBLJGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <20020212190427.37846.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


--- Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> wrote:
> >I used interlock for a little while in the early
> 90's (about the >same time a friend ran Call of
> Traveller) then switched to TNE when >it came out
> because it was pretty close. 
> 
> IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was
> having a chat with a friend in the pub the other
> night about it. We were wondering how easy it would
> be to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into Traveller.
> It took about five minutes.
> 
> We thought that the great old ones were maaybe the
> other side of the ancients war to the Grandfather
> and that they lost and were shut into a pocket
> universe. The entrance to this portal was on some
> world off towards the rim of anything important and
> under the largest ocean on the planets' surface
> (hmm, wonder where that is..?)
> 
> Any thoughts anyone.
> 
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 
> "Wagging this appendage is
> the only creative outlet I have"
> 
> Salem
> 
> 
> 
> Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
> Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
> Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:06:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:06:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <20020212190636.69663.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

The best show on TV has got to be "Farscape" (OK so it
isn't "on" TV right now).  Great Traveller gleanings
for many types of campaigns.  Great writing and
character development.

A strong second would be "Who's Line Is It Anyway?" 
If it were on the computer, there would be several
keyboard kills per show.  As I often tell my wife, it
just isn't right for an individual to have as much
talent as Wayne Brady has.

ObTrav:  What would happen if a group of characters
got "randomly" selected for the next Survivor show. 
"Survivor MMCXXVI: Red Zone".

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:20:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEJMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>method of neutralization.

Agreed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:24:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:24:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] name resource
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212142417.00a6c5a0@mail.charter.net>

http://www.behindthename.com/

For when you are looking for interesting character names.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:20:24 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEJMCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/shotgun.html
>

Cool -- thanks.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:37:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F5mWrPcvOZHJFdhd3MI0000419a@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Of course, what they do to you AFTER you catch a dose
>[of an STD] is something entirely different!

My brother (US Navy) told me of one of his enlisted
cruises, before he got an appointment to the academy.
As the crew was heading out for liberty at a foreign port,
the medical officer was seen standing by the gangway,
poking a large hypodermic needle repeatedly into a block
of wood.  "Have fun, boys...I'll have this nice and dull
for you when you get back."

>Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
>but give us the dough.

College towns usually feel the same way about their student
populations.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:38:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
Message-ID: <20020212193821.80339.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever tried to create a version of the word
generation charts using English?  I was just wondering
how often they will result in real words and how often
it will be jibberish.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:30:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:30:42 -0800
Subject: [TML]  Autofire support weapons in TO&E
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJNCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Here's a first pass at MT stats.  It's comma delimited for import into your
>favorite spreadsheet:

Double thanks, Tod!  You just save the Regina Subsector Special Police
Quartermaster a lot of work!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 19:30:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:30:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEJNCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
>and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
>thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss
>the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
>
>CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.

Thanks, Doug.  This looks like a must-watch from someone running a
police-oriented campaign.  Of course, I'm never home on Thursday at 2100, so
I'll finally have to figure out how to program the VCR.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:14:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:14:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
In-Reply-To: <20020212193821.80339.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1b401$f4eb1aa0$6401a8c0@goca>

I did this once in GW BASIC.  I used the letter frequency charts for the
English language.  I did mainly get jibberish, but sometimes it spat out
some pretty large words that were actually words.  :)

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:38
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English

Has anyone ever tried to create a version of the word
generation charts using English?  I was just wondering
how often they will result in real words and how often
it will be jibberish.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:37:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Paging Mark C.
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BB4@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You get my e-mail re:  address & shirts?
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:01:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
In-Reply-To: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16ak2I-0003Vy-00@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>

"John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> There's going to be a Buffy RPG!! How long till it's out, and from
> whom will it be?

Summer, Eden publications (the extremely skilled, polite, and 
generally wondrous folk who put out Conspiracy X, Witchcraft, and 
All Flesh Must Be Eaten).  The Buffy game will use a modified 
version of the system in Witchcraft.  I (unsurprisingly) will be writing 
the magic book (making something like the 10th RPG magic 
system I've either written [or as in this case] written an expansion 
book for.

Everything I've seen so far looks *excellent*!

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:43:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There was a section in WORLD TAMER'S HANDBOOK that talked about
> infrastructure and all that - along with POCKET EMPIRES.  I would
> suggest that the US is very well developed infrastructure wise, and
> the rest of the world is less so

I would agree.  The per-capita GDP of the US is more than 5 times the
world average, or 7 times the average for the *rest* of the world.

It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 20:50:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:50:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212142417.00a6c5a0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212124947.009f76e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:24 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>http://www.behindthename.com/
>
>For when you are looking for interesting character names.

DOUGLAS (m) "dark river" or "blood river" from Gaelic dubh "dark" and glais 
"water, river". Douglas was originally a river name, the site of a 
particularly bloody battle, which then became a Scottish surname. The 
surname belonged to a powerful line of Scottish earls.

Very interesting site!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping> <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net> <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net> <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3C69843D.9ED406C@sitraka.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
> infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
> one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
> planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
> of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.

In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
infrastructure.

For example, communication equipment and medical equipment are both 
high density, low volume, high impact trade goods that I'd imagine
to be relatively high-rech regardless of the local TL.

For ex, most of Africa has cellular phone infrastructure that's identical
to what you find in Europe or the US. Places like Pakistan have some
medical equipment that's fresh of the line from the US or Europe.
Apparently bin Laden bought a pair of dialysis machines for some hospital
in Pakistan, one being for his own personal use. A similar situation would
hold on many Imperial worlds - it only takes one moderately rich local to
equip at least one hospital ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's
simply enlightened self interest at the very least...

Medico: Rather genenerous of the Baron to donate all that 
        organ transplant equipment, don't you think?
Politico: Uh, do you know how many organ transplants the Baron has had?
Medico: No...
Politico: Thirty-four. He's apparently on his 15th liver.
Medico: Oh...

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:12:30 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020212202441.A6645@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013536545.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> The simple truth is, you'll be able to buy (very limited) GTL 10-12
> goods on TL 7 worlds, unless they're totally disconnected from
> interstellar commerce, and such worlds will use some GTL 10-12
> goods;

I agree.  It's the 'very limited' that prevents me from calling such a
world GTL 10-12.  Given Far Trader volumes, the only goods that will
be in abundance will be ones that the locals produce themselves.
Hence the designation of TL as indicating local production is useful,
since it shows you what level of technology you are likely to
encounter most frequently.


> resulting in a cost of power on the order of $0.005/kWh, assuming
> maintenance costs of 100%/year.  Ask any energy producer if they'd
> buy that...

Sure they would -- and as a consequence, they'd have the capacity to
be more productive than a pure TL 7 world like modern-day Earth.


> Many of them won't be wartorn, but the only reason for a world to be
> at TL 7 is that it can't afford better.  Any wealthy world _will_
> invest in higher-tech toys, and will have their TL rise rapidly
> until it matches their wealth.

I'm not arguing that TL 7 Traveller worlds are *wealthy*; compared
with the industrial TL 12 monsters that drive the Imperial economy
they're probably considered as dirt-poor as we consider Ethiopia to
be.  But then, so would modern-day Earth.

Also, look at the population distributions.  Is it reasonable to
expect most planets with less than a million people to support a
native infrastructure capable of producing antigrav, nuclear dampers,
meson screens, jump-6 drives and/or near-sentient robots even if they
*are* very rich?

I think most of them must be doing pretty well to support TL 7
production.  If they were poor from *our* perspective, I think they'd
be stuck at TL 5 or less.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:10:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:10:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
References: <F47pneeFUtLch9wPiyA00007423@hotmail.com> <3C6856AA.B8757C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6984B6.8070005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

alan spik wrote:
> Whilst riding my bicycle back to the ship one fine saturday afternoon in
> Alameda's pubs, I happened to go down a hill and began passing some vehicular
> traffic which was being followed by a police cruiser. Moments after passing said
> cruiser the siren goes off, tires squeal and I jump off the road to avoid what I
> think is a car chase. Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and
> asks me if I know how fast I was going? Eventually I wound up in court and was
> convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture and a fine
> for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give me a sobriety test as I
> wouldn't have passed.

A friend of mine got one for doing 45 in a 25 mph zone once. Pretty 
expensive ticket, as it put points on his license.

Another friend (living in SF at the time, coincidentally) was trucking 
on down a steep hill when some idiot popped open their car door in front 
of him. Fortunately for him, it was a door with a frameless window, 
'cause he took the window with him rather violently. Rather nasty endo. 
(and the driver got a ticket for the incident..failure to yield or 
obstructing traffic, something like that)

A bike is treated the same as a motor vehicle in most places, though 
it's really hard, usually, to get a ticket, the locals have indeed 
busted people for DUI's in the past.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:26:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: "Mysterious force in space"
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16akQU-0007RF-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Subject: 
> 
> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily 
> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph."
> Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics

<snip much coolness>

I've heard about this before, mentioned wrt the Galileo and Ulysses 
probes.  Having it confirmed for the Pioneer craft is cool.  I wonder 
if this force [if it exists] is related to the "dark energy" so popular in 
current theory (although that is supposed to be a repulsive force).  
Much oddness, and from oddness can spring all manner of new 
and amazing tech.

I know we have a few physics and astronomy types here, any 
comments from folk who know more than I?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:34:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> I agree.  It's the 'very limited' that prevents me from calling such a
> world GTL 10-12.  Given Far Trader volumes, the only goods that will
> be in abundance will be ones that the locals produce themselves.

Um...while Hi-pop worlds have low trade volumes relative to their GWPs, lower
population worlds don't always (depending on port code).  A port-C pop-7 TL-7
world (UWTN 4, WTN 4, pop 30M, GWP 45B or so) is likely to have total trade
equivalent to about BTN 9 or 9.5, accounting for around 10% of GWP.  Lower
population worlds will have even more.  Any areas near a port (where PCs are
most often found) will have disproportionately high penetration of offworld
goods in any case.

> Also, look at the population distributions.  Is it reasonable to
> expect most planets with less than a million people to support a
> native infrastructure capable of producing antigrav, nuclear dampers,
> meson screens, jump-6 drives and/or near-sentient robots even if they
> *are* very rich?

No, but that's an argument against TL having anything to do with production
capabilities, and in favor of my definition (which basically assumes that
worlds have the infrastructure they can pay for, and thus there's a nearly
direct corrolation between TL and wealth).  If Tenalphi (1828 spinware marches)
can maintain TL 14 with a population of 60, there's no way TL has anything to
do with manufacturing capability, seeing as Tenalphi doesn't have any.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:40:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>
References: <Pine.A41.4.32.0202121039220.21088-100000@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU>
Message-ID: <p04330107b88f3b32833b@[198.123.22.181]>

At 10:57 AM -0500 2/12/02, Victor Abraham Delnore wrote:
>Of course these laws are almost never enforced, or I should say that
>police officers almost never treat bicycles according to their proper legal
>status.  Our campus police were saying they had "had complaints" and
>"frequently noticed unsafe cycling practices."  Whatever you say, officer!

The problem is that the laws, and much of the layout of the roads, 
don't take bikes into account.  So this help breed the view that they 
don't apply to them.  (Similarly, cars will often start "short 
cutting" laws that just don't make sense to them).

This cuts a number of ways, one that works against bikes is that cars 
will sometimes violate their right of way.  I'm never sure a car will 
stop for me even if he has a stop sign and I don't.  (Since I'm "only 
a bike" the laws that require him to yield must not apply...).

Myself, I the laws sometimes so ignore the possibilities of bikes, 
that I mostly concentrate on always yeilding right of way.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (scspieker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:46:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] 25mm Traveller Figures
References: <E16akQU-0007RF-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <007801c1b40e$c0e59de0$4a0000c0@royalplastics.com>

Hi all,
    Anyone happen to be interested in 40 of the '83-'84 era grenadier 25mm
figures?  That's right, I have 40 of these babies up for grabs.

    They are all of the power armored marines with rifles and SMG like
weapons.

If you are interested, please contact me off-list at:
scspieker@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Scott


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:53:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:53:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Bikes and the law
Message-ID: <20020212.135345.-95489.1.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:07 -0500 (EST) Victor Abraham Delnore
<vad9m@unix.mail.virginia.edu> writes:
> Obey all signs and signals, including stop and one-way--this
> was the big problem on our campus; cyclists would cut up a
> wide one-way street that had been so designated for traffic-
>quieting 
> .
> Signal all turns.  Drive on the right.  Control your speed.  Use the 
> road, not the sidewalk.

This reminds me of a funny bike accident I had in the US Army.

I was quietly riding my 10 speed back from the motorpool, and caught up
with a platoon double timing down the road. I followed for a few minutes
then decided to pass. I was halfway up along side them when suddenly the
butterball El-Tee called a column left.

I mowed down the LT, and scattered the troops.

The LT was mad, but I put him in his place "respectfully"  by letting him
know he was suppose to send out road guards. He muttered a lame excuss
that he could hear if a car was coming. I quietly road off on my merry
way thinking of a Bible verse:

	Ps 18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I
leaped over a wall.

I had a great afternoon.

Turokan


We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:54:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:54:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <3C69843D.9ED406C@sitraka.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
 <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212164407.00a85618@urbin.net>

This stuff was discussed in great detail back on the TNE Pocket Empire list

When you are rebuilding from a small, but advanced tech base, there are 
easier shortcuts to take.

RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding areas of 
what used to be East German.
Residential buildings had 1' TV satellites attached by each apartment window.
These buildings were built no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put 
up these dishes and make use of the orbital infrastructure than to run 
cable to each and every building/apartment.

Same with Cell phones.

At 04:08 PM 2/12/2002 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Timothy Little wrote:
> >
> > It is easy to imagine a TL 7 planet somewhere with less well developed
> > infrastructure than Earth's world average.  It is also easy to imagine
> > one with more highly developed infrastructure.  Furthermore, most TL 7
> > planets in Traveller will have access to at least some of the benefits
> > of technology from more advanced planets in addition to their own.
>
>In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
>has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
>infrastructure.
>
>For example, communication equipment and medical equipment are both
>high density, low volume, high impact trade goods that I'd imagine
>to be relatively high-rech regardless of the local TL.
>
>For ex, most of Africa has cellular phone infrastructure that's identical
>to what you find in Europe or the US. Places like Pakistan have some
>medical equipment that's fresh of the line from the US or Europe.
>Apparently bin Laden bought a pair of dialysis machines for some hospital
>in Pakistan, one being for his own personal use. A similar situation would
>hold on many Imperial worlds - it only takes one moderately rich local to
>equip at least one hospital ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's
>simply enlightened self interest at the very least...
>
>Medico: Rather genenerous of the Baron to donate all that
>         organ transplant equipment, don't you think?
>Politico: Uh, do you know how many organ transplants the Baron has had?
>Medico: No...
>Politico: Thirty-four. He's apparently on his 15th liver.
>Medico: Oh...
>
>Ethan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Almost all of the insights and profundities that constitute my wisdom have
been taken without permission from others. If you suspect that your wisdom
has been stolen to embellish my reputation, first double-check to make sure
that your insights are still around. Very often, notions and ideas are not
stolen at all, but merely 'copied'. If you still feel that you have been
wronged, please contact the author to negotiate a settlement satisfactory to
all involved parties. Ironically, the author does not grant you permission
to use said ideas, regardless of their original source.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 21:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] =Forms_of_military_ address
Message-ID: <20020212.135345.-95489.0.generalturokan@juno.com>



On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:06:33 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 11:13 PM 2/12/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
> >years ??
> >They must have a terrible retention rate.
> 
> It also might be that the USMC is a bit larger than the NZ forces.
> 
> Most US servicepeople do their four years and get out.

I was active only 3 years (USArmy) yet made E-2 out of Basic, and E-4 by
my 15th month in. In the 17th month I was temporarily given the rank of
Acting Sergeant E-5. They wanted to make it permanent, but couldn't due
to not enough time in grade as an E-4.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:12:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:12:34 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Military Units
Message-ID: <F22zp4ITnESxfXyEUEZ000158f7@hotmail.com>

>>Any source for this? I've never heard of an army that had a formal 
>>squad/fire-
>>team division that used three fire-teams. AFAIK everyone use two, 
>>including
>>those (like NZ's) that don't formally divide a squad/section at all.
>
>I'm not aware of any real armies with 3x FT, but in Traveller:2300, we had
>3x FT in Combat Walker (i.e. Battledress) units of the British Army. See
>http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/CDF/CDFACdo.htm (although 2300,
>it would be great to adapt to Traveller).

</lurk mode>

I'm reading this late, so forgive me if this point has been answered.  I've 
skimmed lots of subject lines and deleted most in the interest of time.

When I joined the USMC (PLC/OCS in 81/82 and as a 2d Lt in 83) we were 
organized with 3 fireteams to the squad, 3 squads to the Plt, 3 Plt to the 
Company (with the added weapons Plt), then 3 Companies to the Btn (with the 
added H&S company).  3 Battalions made up a Regiment, with the added support 
organizations.  A Bn was task organized for deployments with added tank, 
artillery, MT, Amphib support, turning it into a Battalion Landing Team.

Of course, we reorganized into two fireteams / squad... but I don't remember 
when that was.

Cheers,

<lurk mode>
Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:18:41 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_	stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C691442.8899E506@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:

> As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
> Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
> is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
> though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
> told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. 

For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:19:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:19:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212083201.B5583@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <ML-2.3.1013464458.5627.ajackson@ping>
 <3.0.1.32.20020211195406.00e1d440@buffnet.net>
 <20020212203525.B6645@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3.0.1.32.20020212050320.00e269e0@buffnet.net>
 <20020213074311.A8193@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020212164407.00a85618@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <3C6994DF.11B996AA@sitraka.com>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> This stuff was discussed in great detail back on the TNE Pocket Empire list

No doubt.

> When you are rebuilding from a small, but advanced tech base, there are
> easier shortcuts to take.

You also build differently when you're rolling out to a really large
user base all at once versus an incremental rollout. And you roll out
untested tech differently from tested tech, etc, etc. Very true.

> RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding areas of
> what used to be East German.
> Residential buildings had 1' TV satellites attached by each apartment window.
> These buildings were built no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put
> up these dishes and make use of the orbital infrastructure than to run
> cable to each and every building/apartment.
> 
> Same with Cell phones.

Isn't this mentioned in Tarsus? The PCs can pick up commo 
sets that use an orbital satellite network a la Iridium, although
Tarsus predated any such systems by quite a few years. IIRC the system
was the standard planet wide communication system and PCs could also
request custom "handles" instead of stock phone numbers. It was
sort of like signing up for free email - you get to pick you address,
in so far as you pick one no one else is using.

Great module Tarsus.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:36:43 -0700
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Re:_[TML]_Re:_Re:_[TML]_Re:=A0_Miltary_	stories?=
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:
> 
> 
>>As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
>>Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
>>is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
>>though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
>>told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also. 
>>
> 
> For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.

No, simply a judge gently informing a smartass swabbie just whose court 
it was.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:46:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:46:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F262Z4wxTTpSRXCbcxv000144fe@hotmail.com>

>
>In the USMC (Uncle Sam's Misguided Children), if he is a Master Sergeant or
>Master Gunnery Sergeant, that's what you call him.  Not First Sergeant or
>Sergeant Major.  On occasions that are even slightly formal, if the
>Sergeant Major is serving in the billet of Battalion, Regiment, or Division
>Sergeant Major, it might be a good idea to say it that way.  Tell the
>truth, I can't remember whether we have Division Sergeants Major.  There is
>only one E-10 in the USMC at any given time, and the name of his rank is
>"Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps".

We do have Division Sergeants Major.  As a Captain, I always called my 
MGySgt "Master Gunnery Sergeant" or "Master Guns".  I never saw so much salt 
in my life as on that crusty old MGySgt...

I NEVER called a First Sergeant 'First Shirt', he was 'Top'.

>We do, rarely, call First Sergeants "First Shirt", but less often to their
>faces, and you'd better have well proven yourself to everyone there to back
>up such apparent saltiness if you're going to do it.  Or be an officer of
>virtually any rank.
>
>I think the somewhat-obscure tradition of calling warrant officers "Gunner"
>has been dying and is almost gone.

Gunner is still (was when I was there) the tradition, amongst officers 
anyway.  Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was 
insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the USN.  And 
the Gunner rank actually came back in when I was just getting out.  But it 
is VERY hard to become a true gunner.

>As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment are:
>(1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant  (better
>outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their face)

I remember being called all of these.  Definately by others with higher rank 
than I.  The Boot Lieutenant though is a specific 2dlt who is THE boot.  The 
lowest ranking lieutenant.

>(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're going
>to address them that way to their face)
>(3) just plain "lieutenant" for either 1st or 2nd lieutenants (acceptable
>in most situations)
>(4) skipper, for either a company commander, battalion commander, or
>regiment commander (such informality should be used with care)

Skipper is also used with any USMC captain.  Simply because in the USN, the 
Captain is the skipper of the ship.  Ergo, I was "skipper" to most of my 
Marines when assigned at HQMC.  Heck, the whole time I was a Captain, I was 
skipper to someone!  And when I called my carpool buddies at USN Bureau of 
Personnel, I was always "Captain Smith" and got right through to the people 
I needed to talk to.  They always thought I was an O6 calling officially...

>(5) old man, for any of the above  (most frequently used for battalion
>commander, rare for company commander) and even higher commanders (such
>informality should be used with care)
>
>A related piece of USMC slang

>For instance, the designation S-2 refers to the unit's
>Intelligence Officer and people quite commonly say things like "Give that
>to the S-2," or "Ask the S-2." or "Good to meet you, I'm the S-2".
>Further, they are said to run a "shop".  "This is my shop," or "Find
>someone in the S-2 shop and see what's going on,"  or "I work in the S-2
>shop".

True!  I was the '4' for the 8th Communications Battalion, 2d FSSG for a 
couple of years.  I owned the 4-shop.  Had a gunny who worked with me.  He 
was my 'Chief'.  Had a Warrant Officer too.  Called him 'WO' (woe) at times, 
but mostly 'Gunner'.

Oh, and an aside...  Never call a USMC Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.  He'll tell 
you that's a disease.  To your face.  :-)

And as a new Officer Candidate (and I'm sure it carries over for recruits, 
and more so) never say "You" when talking to your Platoon Sergeant or 
instructor...  I remember the ONE time I did that.  He went off!  It was 
words to the effect of...and at a distance of about 2 inches....and at a 
decibel level that was damaging...but most effective, "Ewe?!  EWE?!  Did you 
just call me a EWE?  What!?!  Do I have WOOL on my A$$?  You want to F____ 
me?" and so on and so forth until well, until he got tired.  And then he 
started all over again later on.  Priceless...

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC

(former)

AKA

Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:59:09 +0000
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>

I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill 
are different in the armies. For example.

Position	US		Commonwealth
Rifleman: 	>Corporal	Private
Squad Cdr	Sergeant	Corporal
Platoon Sgt	Staff Sgt	Sergeant
CSM		1st Sergeant	WO2 (CSM)
Platoon Cdr	Lieutenant	Lieutenant-Captain
Company Cdr	Captain		Major
Battalion Cdr	Major		Lt. Colonel

In all cases, the person at a given rank would have had longer service in 
the commonwealth model, and would be of a lower rank.

A friend of a friend (a WO2) was attached to the US army, and was given the 
privileges of his US equivalents rank, a Brigadier General, but that was a 
specialised field.

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:56:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:56:45 +1100
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <20020212061510.PXOG319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C699DAD.1090302@yarranet.net.au>

Laning wrote:

> Can anyone point me to any canonical references to Pscias?  Or other
> Landgrab references?

The only reference at the list of worlds is to a TNS entry.
	http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 22:58:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:58:28 +1100
Subject: [TML] Word Generation - English
References: <000401c1b401$f4eb1aa0$6401a8c0@goca>
Message-ID: <3C699E14.1080300@yarranet.net.au>

J-Man wrote:

> I did this once in GW BASIC.  I used the letter frequency charts for the
> English language.  I did mainly get jibberish, but sometimes it spat out
> some pretty large words that were actually words.  :)

Any chance you still have the charts?

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 23:13:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:13:59 +1300
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
References: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A5887.24560.6F0FE0@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 22:59, Bryn Monnery wrote:

> I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill 
> are different in the armies. For example.
> 
> Position	US		Commonwealth
> Rifleman: 	>Corporal	Private
> Squad Cdr	Sergeant	Corporal
> Platoon Sgt	Staff Sgt	Sergeant
> CSM		1st Sergeant	WO2 (CSM)
> Platoon Cdr	Lieutenant	Lieutenant-Captain
> Company Cdr	Captain		Major
                            ^^^^^
IME this should be Captain - Major

> Battalion Cdr	Major		Lt. Colonel


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 12 23:59:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:59:27 -0800
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1b41b$55df51a0$35912fc3@computer>
Message-ID: <B88EEC5F.251A9%listmom@travellercentral.com>


----------
From: "Finn Svanlund Harteg" <Svanlund@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:42 +0100
To: <Tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Megalithic yard

To those, who are interested in units of length and ancient metrology.

In the book, The Bornholm Mystery - 1993, as concerns with distances between
churches on Bornholm, Denmark, the most important distance is that between
the churches in sterlars and Nylars = 14 335.59 m. The same as the distance
between the churches in sterlars and Rutsker =  14335.71 m. The author,
E.Haagensen did not find any known unit of length here. The average of the
two distances is 14 335.65 m.

However, you can get to the length of 14 333.7 m by using:

METRES AND TIME
10 000 km x pi : 6, divided with the numbers of days in a tropical year. It
 is: 10 000 km x 3.1415926536 : 6 : 365.24219871..=      14335.65939.. m.
 (Pi as 3.1416 gives, 14 335.69..m ).

CUBITS
44 x the diagonal in Cheops ( the side is 440 cubits  0.5236 m ). It is
44 x 230.384 m x V2 =
14 335.7358 m.
(Cubit as 3.1416 m : 6 gives, 14 335.702..m ).

The average of these two distances is 14 335.698 m or      14 335.7 m.

MEGALITHIC YARD
1 old foot = 12 old inches = 12 x 0.025399772 m = 0.304797264 m.
1 MYB  ( Megalithic yard Bornholm ) =  10 000 old  feet : 3675 =
2.721088435 old foot =  0.8293803108 m.
1 meter = 1 000 MYB : pi : 264.
1 old foot = 0.3675 MYB.
10 000 MYB x 11 : 9 x V2 =                                               14
335.7 m.


Finn Harteg
Svanlund@get2net.dk




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:01:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:01:40 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020213081230.B8193@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1013549695.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020213110140.A8578@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Um...while Hi-pop worlds have low trade volumes relative to their
> GWPs, lower population worlds don't always (depending on port code).
> A port-C pop-7 TL-7 world (UWTN 4, WTN 4, pop 30M, GWP 45B or so) is
> likely to have total trade equivalent to about BTN 9 or 9.5,
> accounting for around 10% of GWP.

Yep.  Then half of that will be exports, some unknown percentage will
be trade of goods at the same or lower tech level, and much of the
remainder will go toward infrastructure maintenance.  Import of
higher-tech consumer goods may not make up more than a percent or two.


>  Lower population worlds will have even more.  Any areas near a port
> (where PCs are most often found) will have disproportionately high
> penetration of offworld goods in any case.

Agreed.


> > Also, look at the population distributions.
[...]
> If Tenalphi (1828 spinware marches) can maintain TL 14 with a
> population of 60, there's no way TL has anything to do with
> manufacturing capability, seeing as Tenalphi doesn't have any.

If you look at the trade volume Tenalphi has (GWP 450 kCr, trade more
than 60000 kCr), it becomes pretty clear that its local production
infrastructre probably is entirely supported by offworld trade.
e.g. it may consist of a largely automated antimatter production
facility (hence its local production is almost entirely high-tech
goods), maintained and supported by a much larger external industrial
base.

Such a situation seems far less likely for worlds having trade volumes
substantially lower than their GWP, which describes most Traveller
worlds.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:16:00 +1100
Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
References: <F150ad2VqKwRPQIWDO300003d6d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C69B040.8000005@gmx.net>

Robert Kondrk wrote:

>> From: "Andrew Long" <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>> Subject: [TML] "Mysterious force in space"
>> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:02:57 +0400
>>
>> This article was on the front page of yesterday's Gulf News (a daily 
>> paper in the Arabian Gulf), credited as 'copyright London Telegraph." 
>> Any ideas, anyone?
>>
>> MYSTERIOUS FORCE IN SPACE
>> Baffled scientists say could rewrite the laws of physics
>
>
> I remember reading the original BBC story about this last spring.  
> AFAIK, they still don't know the cause of this anomaly.
>
Subspace?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:14:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:14:46  0000
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
Message-ID: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>

I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain the concept to me?

Cheers

Other thant that I've no real thoughts on Pscias other than I've put an ISS research post there and there a couple of links to an ongoing plot I've got. If you could implement that then anything else would be great.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:26:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020213110140.A8578@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013560014.2060.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> Yep.  Then half of that will be exports, some unknown percentage will
> be trade of goods at the same or lower tech level, and much of the
> remainder will go toward infrastructure maintenance.  Import of
> higher-tech consumer goods may not make up more than a percent or two.

It's unclear whether the total is exports+imports, or average of exports and
imports.  In most cases, the majority of a world's trade is with local
high-tech worlds, so we can assume that the vast majority of goods being traded
for will be TL 10-12.

As for what will be bought, that's easy.  Whatever is cheaper to buy than to
locally produce.  You'll see essentially zero production of low-tech aircraft
(grav vehicles are cheaper and more reliable) and low-tech armored vehicles
(higher tech vehicles outpower low-tech vehicles by ridiculous margins).  On
the other hand, you'll see a lot of locally produced cloth, food, buildings,
power lines, etc.  You'll probably also see local production of assault rifles
and a variety of other expendable munitions.
> 
> Such a situation seems far less likely for worlds having trade volumes
> substantially lower than their GWP, which describes most Traveller
> worlds.

My point is that Tenalphi probably has no local manufacturing capacity at all. 
As such, talking about 'local production' defining TL is inane.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:54:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:54:43  0000
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <DKAAACCGHLHOGBAA@angelfire.com>

Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


I'm sorry I started this now.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:21:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:21:56 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Is he the walrus?
Message-ID: <72.179248d4.299b19b4@aol.com>

In a message dated 12-Feb-02 3:56:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:

> At 03:46 AM 2/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
>  >So long as Subject Whincup remains fixated on the RPG aspects of the
>  >delicate issues involved, we need only monitor Subject.  Should Subject
>  >display addtional knowledge of or interest in matters closely relating
>  >to the circle's activities, the additional intelligence gathered on
>  >Subject via close monitoring should give both adequate warning and
>  >guidance as to whether Subject should be coopted or neutralized; should
>  >neutralization prove desirable, the intelligence collected through
>  >monitoring Subject will help the circle decide on the most effective
>  >method of neutralization.
>  
>  I shall notify the Egg Board.

Ook-ook a choob!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:30:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:30:28 EST
Subject: [TML] New Force
Message-ID: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com>

> I've heard about this before, mentioned wrt the Galileo and Ulysses 
>  probes.  Having it confirmed for the Pioneer craft is cool.  I wonder 
>  if this force [if it exists] is related to the "dark energy" so popular in 
>  current theory (although that is supposed to be a repulsive force).  
>  Much oddness, and from oddness can spring all manner of new 
>  and amazing tech.
>  
>  I know we have a few physics and astronomy types here, any 
>  comments from folk who know more than I?

Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some history:

The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were 
designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to 
this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*

LKW

* Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:33:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:33:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
References: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C69C24D.545E9A@premier.net>



Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 
> I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain the concept to me?

It all started during a flamewar in early 2000.  Doug Berry suggested
that te energies spent on invective could be better used in developing
and writing worlds in the Spinward Marches.

Links to the Landgrab writeups may be found at:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

http://www.spinwardmarches.com/

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:59:10 -0600
Subject: Chinese spam (was Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150)
References: <200202120946.g1C9kmT28179@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C69C86E.11054D83@ameritech.net>




> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:18:10 -0600
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #150
> 
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> > tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> > > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:52
> > >  > From: "Liu Qi" <moonship@heinfo.net>
> > >  > Subject: Sell Chinese Forklifts
> > >  >
> > >  > Dear Sir and Madam,
> > >  >
> > >  > We sell Chinese Forklift from 4 tons, 5 tons, 6 tons, and 7 tons
> > >  > lifting capacity.
> > >  >
> > >  > Chinese Forklifts are good quality with the most competitive
> > >  > price. If you are interested, please contact us at:
> > >
> > >  What, no Striker stats?
> >
> > Do not taunt Chinese forklift.

ROFLMAO

> 
> All your pallet are belong to us.

<splort> 

Please score one keyboard kill to John Groth, with an assist
from Loren Wiseman.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:16:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:16:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213031839.WXZW319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 23:13:57 +1300, Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
typed:
>My God! The USMC lets people become sergeants after only five
>years ??

Only rarely.  That's why I said I was proud of my feat.  Five years was
typically a new corporal.  If you see a lance corporal with five years, you
know he's been busted at least once.  This was peace time, 1980-86.  The
USMC is always much poorer than the other three branches, so we don't have
as much money for formal schooling.

The Air Force, Army, and Navy promoted faster than we do.  I think we all
promoted *much* more slowly prior to the huge military expansion for WW2.
But still faster than our UK and Commonwealth counterparts.

FWIW, I I always thought rank should come at a rate more comparable to what
you guys do, Senor Pitt.  One reason we haven't done that is more pressure
to be competitive with civilian pay.  The US has maintained a much higher
percentage of its population in the military than most countries ever since
WW2, and we've been all volunteer since 1975.  When people have a choice
between a civilian job in the leading economy in the world or the military,
you gotta do something.  I suspect there's also a cultural difference over
mobility between economic classes, and this is represented even in our
military.  I've always thought it would be cool to give pay raises for both
seniority and merit, in addition to the pay raise that comes with a
promotion.  That way there's no pressure to promote people simple to keep
their pay competitive and retain them in the service.  You can give them
competitive pay while keeping them at the rank they actually earn.

ObTrav:  Does anyone have a __simple__ set of rule mods for Traveller char
gen that would realistically portray these kinds of differences between
different branches, different empires, different planetary militaries?
[BTW, in the States "military" includes the naval and air services.]
Something that gives consistent results for each planet and service?  It
probably should be based on TL, population, and other such codes, plus some
way of taking cultural differences into account, and what percentage of the
population is in the military.  I'd prefer CT or MT.  If I drum up my own
mod for this, I'll go ahead and post it to the List.

--Laning
As long as I can remember, I've had amnesia.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:40:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 04:35:29 -0700, Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> typed:
>I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.

In most if not all states.  You can get points on your driver's license
from offenses on a bicycle and everything.

>It certainly doesn't
>make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
>will.

Our legal system considers suicide a crime, so it makes sense in that
respect.  Also, consider the damage a deer can do when a car strikes it,
and that's much lighter than a human and doesn't have lots of metal parts
sticking out.

I've known of way too many bicycle fatalities, not always the fault of a
motorist.  Be careful out there, people.  And always wear a helmet.

--Laning
Gravity.  Not just a good idea, it's the law.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:50:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Mysterious force in space
In-Reply-To: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213035242.XFDN319.dorsey@link>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 20:02:57 +0400, Andrew Long <andrewglong@yahoo.com>
typed:
<<<SNIP>>>
>Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of =
>Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to =
>the sun by an unknown force.
>
>The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels =
>deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that =
>the probe has revealed a new force of nature,
<<<SNIP>>>
Duh.  Any reader of Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers stories will tell
you that Pioneer 10 is approaching the edge of our pocket universe.  If Red
Orc were still alive, he'd be reading the newspaper article and chortling.

--Laning
"All your pocket universe are belong to us." -an anonymous Beller
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 03:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:53:06 +1100
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>

LKW lectured:
> Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some
history:
>
> The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were
> designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to
> this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*
>
> LKW
>
> * Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.

Bummer...
I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Ok, so we didn't.  But we were *going* to.
..then the acid really kicked in.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:22:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:22:36 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F1259F4Ytioehd5uq7m00016cf6@hotmail.com>

From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>

     My brother (US Navy) told me of one of his enlisted cruises, before he 
got an appointment to the academy.  As the crew was heading out for liberty 
at a foreign port, the medical officer was seen standing by the gangway, 
poking a large hypodermic needle repeatedly into a block of wood.  "Have 
fun, boys...I'll have this nice and dull
for you when you get back."


Mr. Smith,

     Ah, the old "square needle-in-the-left-testicle" treatment!  It works 
every time!
     I know of one case of STD that cost the fellow a pay grade.  One of the 
E-4s in my engineroom managed to contract gonorrhea while visiting Karachi.  
(I don't even want to KNOW how he did this.  I never even SAW any women when 
ashore in Karachi, no mean feat considering how long we'd been at sea.)
     This chucklehead didn't bother reporting to sick bay when the symptoms 
broke out, despite constant training on the subject.  His treatment required 
bed rest and played holy hell with our watch bill thanks to the miserable 
manning levels aboard.
     After being cured, said moron went to Captain's Mast and lost a 
paygrade, plus additional fines and loss of liberty.  We thumped him when he 
returned to the engineroom too.  Stupid bastard.
     The corpmen kept a never-empty condom box aboard and pro-kits were 
always available, no questions asked.  By not availing himself to these 
resources, this chowderhead had willfully rendered himself unfit for duty 
and got gigged for it, plain and simple.
     During my two WestPacs and 'Round the World cruise, the crew contracted 
more STDs while visiting Perth, Western Australia.  This despite visiting 
other charming spots like Mombasa, Kenya or the Phillipines.  One corpmen's 
theory on this oddity was that most fellows didn't think any precautions 
were necessary when visiting a "normal" country.  Pretty silly in my book.  
Hell, I used pro-kits while in homeport!  Any woman willing to spend time 
with a squid should be automatically suspect.  ;)
     Ma Whipsnade didn't raise no fools!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:09:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEJKCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020212220720.00e1d100@rollanet.org>

At 01:31 AM 2/12/02, you wrote:
> >From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>
> >
> >IS Call of Traveller what I think it is? I was having a chat with a friend
>in the pub the other >night about it. We were wondering how easy it would be
>to incorporate the Cthulhu mythos into
> >Traveller. It took about five minutes.
>
>This one may be coming too close.  We must determine whether he can be
>brought into the circle or whether he must be neutralized.
>
>--Glenn

As a rule of thumb, people who aren't worthy who are brought into the 
circle tend to neutralize themselves.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:34:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:34:10 -0600
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C69ECC2.37EE04F1@premier.net>



Shane Slamet wrote:
> 
> LKW lectured:
> > Not a physics or astronomy type . . .  I'm a historian. Here's some
> history:
> >
> > The reason C/G occurs so early in the TL progression is that when we were
> > designing the game, Frank had read somewhere about a discovery (similar to
> > this one) that indicated that we were about to explain gravity.*
> >
> > LKW
> >
> > * Don't remember what it was . . . it didn't pan out.
> 
> Bummer...
> I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
> when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
> the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
> bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).

I take it that their response was along the lines of "Because the Yanks
and Japanese haven't cleared them for export yet"? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>

I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.

Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know if
leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy sailors
called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > On 12 Feb 2002, at 8:10, alan spik wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As it turns out bikes are vehicles and must follow all the rules of the road.
> >>Cop friends here in Virginia tell me that its the same all over the states, but
> >>is generally unenforced. I think he was PO'd at sailors. What really got me
> >>though was the judge. I told him I didn't have a speedometer on the bike and was
> >>told I was lucky not to get hit with improper equipment also.
> >>
> >
> > For not having a speedo on a push-bike? Now that's absurd.
>
> No, simply a judge gently informing a smartass swabbie just whose court
> it was.
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 04:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:51:05 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F205Lo7vhd0zV7RPoSn0000fd06@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding
areas of what used to be East German.  Residential buildings had 1' TV 
satellites attached by each apartment window.  These buildings were built no 
later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put up these dishes and make use of 
the orbital infrastructure than to run cable to each and every 
building/apartment."

     "Same with Cell phones."


Mr. Urbin,

     That's one aspect of increasing TLs that I feel have never been 
adequately explored; "industrial inertia".  The more infrastructure already 
in place for the "old" TL and longer it has been there, the harder it should 
be to replace it.  Especially if the new device's or infrastructure's 
function is already handled "well enough" or can be handled "well enough" by 
the old device or infrastructure in the populations' eyes.
     Case in point.  The EU stole the march on wireless technology because 
it was an end around a particular infrastructure bottleneck, that being 
wires running to every house and apartment.  The US naturally looked to 
dial-up modems and cable TV becaue there was a wire, and all those telephone 
poles, already standing there.  Other nations, especially without the 
massive wire and pole investment the US has, simply "jumped over" that stage 
of development.  While most folks in the EU and other places get there TV 
and internet via wireless methods, the majority of the US population gets 
the same services over wires.  The US is using a lower TL infrastructure to 
provide a higher TL service becasue the lo-tech infrastructure is already in 
place.
     Another RW example can be found in Mexico.  A brother-in-law works in 
telecommunication consulting and has visited Mexico on that business for 
decades now.  For a variety of cultural reasons, the wait for a phone 
landline in that country was measured in years.  Then cell phones got cheap. 
  While the Mexican phone company was still struggling to raise poles and 
string lines for landline phone service, other companies built microwave 
towers and sold cell phones.  Currently, the majority of Mexicans use cell 
phones as their primary telephone as opposed to the majority of Americans 
who have cell phones as only a secondary phone.  If you used the cell 
phone/landline phone as a development yardstick, Mexico would be more 
developed than the US.
     How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use 
them?
     I call it "industrial inertia", but I'm sure the sociology boffins have 
some more accurate term for it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:33:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>



alan spik wrote:
> 
> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

ISTR someone suggesting that Marines might be referred to as "Girlies in
Dresses" (the "dresses" in question being battledress).  Personally, I
like "maroons" for Marines (a reference to their garrison uniforms, and
pronounced a la Bugs Bunny mispronouncing "moron" [with the same
meaning]).  [BTW, you shouldn't call Marines "jarheads."  After all, you
can put things in jars.... ;-)]

"Swabbie" will still hold true for both wet-navy and space navy types
("squid" being limited to wet-navy personnel); space navy personnel
might also be referred to with some derivative of "space case."  IISS
personnel might be referred to as "_Cub_ Scouts."

There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)

<<snip>>

[*] GT:GF sidebar, pages 30-31.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:46:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:46:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F223sAuCs9aXyKyfIFj00012a54@hotmail.com>

From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>

      "FWIW, I I always thought rank should come at a rate more comparable 
to what you guys do, Senor Pitt.  One reason we haven't done that is more 
pressure to be competitive with civilian pay."


Sir,

     We had a discussion in this vein about this time last year.  Yes, the 
armed services need to retain their most qualified personnel in some manner 
and, yes, pay is one way to do it.  But a wildly different pay scale for 
different jobs within the same service could have dire consequences for 
moral.
     I was a "push-button" E-4, made it about one month out of basic after 
successfully completing "A" school.  That was one of the benefits of being a 
nuc.  I also meant that everyone in a nuc engineroom was already a petty 
officer.  Anyone familiar with normal enginerooms, and the usual "this job 
means this rank" assumptions, would have been extremely confused.
     There was another side effect too.  Because we all had been given rank 
rapidly, we all paid very little attention to it.  It meant nothing to us, 
competence in the job mattered and not the number of chevrons on your 
sleeve.  This put us at odds with the non-nuc portions of the crew.  There 
an E-5 or E-6 had years in the Navy, he expected and recieved the deference 
due to his senority.  He never got that from the nucs and it led to a chilly 
relationship between "nuc" and "topsider".
     To us, rank did not automatically equate with competence.  Rank was 
merely a yardstick of how long you'd been in, nothing more.  Thanks to my 
"push-button" crow and a nonexistant surface nuc retention rate, I was 
guaranteed to make E-7 the year I got out.  That's chief in less than 7 
years.
     My first engineroom leading petty officer was an E-4.  Smitty refused 
to hand in the book work or take the tests for advancement, feeling his nuc 
qualifications were good enough and the Navy rank system need not apply in 
the engineroom.  He had nearly 5 years in and, from every standpoint other 
than rank, was the best man for the job.  He gave orders to E-5s and E-6s 
because he was better qualified then they, not because he had more rank then 
they.  Can you see that working in any other military situations?
     The need for the Navy to train and retain those people who could 
successfully complete nuc propulsion training led to this topsy-turvy 
climate.  I'm not so certain that, in the end, it was good for the Navy or 
would be good for any other armed service.



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:53:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:=?ISO-8859-1?B?oA==?= Miltary
 stories
In-Reply-To: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B88F3F74.25316%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/12/02 8:37 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't know
> if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy
> sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Spam? as in Spam in a can.  Liked this in "The right stuff"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <119.c71662b.299a05c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>

Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these 
years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls 
off.........  ;-)

At 12:44 AM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11-Feb-02 9:44:39 PM Central Standard Time, Tod L Glenn
>writes (in his sig):
>
> > When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>
>go to http://www.cafepress.com/irbwgren and you can buy a t-shirt with that
>sentiment . . . and get me a couple of bucks in the bargain.
>
>LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:43:36 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com> <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <20020213174336.A9160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Laning wrote:
> In most if not all states.  You can get points on your driver's license
> from offenses on a bicycle and everything.

Here you can get fined for traffic offenses incurred while riding a
bicycle, but they won't affect your driver's licence (if you have
one).

On a related note, there are some car parks here with a legally
mandated speed limit of 5 km/hr!  The fine for exceeding the speed
limit by 30 km/hr is pretty astronomical.  It is therefore technically
possible to cop a few hundred dollar fine for riding a bicycle in such
a car park.  Even when the shops they service are shut and there are
no cars in it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 06:44:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:44:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020212223231.00a40c20@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500, "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
> >but give us the dough.
>
>College towns usually feel the same way about their student
>populations.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

In all fairness (as a former college student, and current resident of the 
same college town) to the transient populations in question... while they 
may make a big stink about how the permanent residents of the surrounding 
community harass them and infringe upon their rights, etc etc, they also 
tend to be (on average) a LOT more rowdy, undisciplined, and/or 
trouble-causing than said residents.

After a few years of dealing with overgrown children who are 
without  supervision (parental and/or military) for the first time in their 
lives, noisily experimenting with sex, drugs, vehicles and property damage 
in the usual combinations, even the most even-tempered policeman or 
bartender can find his patience and goodwill toward his fellow man sorely 
tested.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 07:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:43:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B88F590E.2535C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/12/02 10:36 PM, Charles McKnight at res0i3sf@verizon.net wrote:

> Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these
> years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls
> off.........  ;-)
> 

Unless you've lost the pin.  Then you've got a friend for life.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 01:02:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:02:16 -0000
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
References: <B88EEC5F.251A9%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1b46c$6ea59ea0$d96f893e@fabian>

This looks clever on the face of it, but it is on the exact same level as
the maths that demonstrate that it is possible to derive the number 666
from almost any name or its initials, thereby 'proving' that person X is
the spawn of the devil. Numerology doesn't really prove anything, and it
would be more remarkable if you *couldn't* derive these numbers from
established units.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.





----------
From: "Finn Svanlund Harteg" <Svanlund@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:42 +0100
To: <Tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Megalithic yard

To those, who are interested in units of length and ancient metrology.

In the book, The Bornholm Mystery - 1993, as concerns with distances
between
churches on Bornholm, Denmark, the most important distance is that between
the churches in $B%j(Bsterlars and Nylars = 14 335.59 m. The same as the
distance
between the churches in $B%j(Bsterlars and Rutsker =  14335.71 m. The author,
E.Haagensen did not find any known unit of length here. The average of the
two distances is 14 335.65 m.

However, you can get to the length of 14 333.7 m by using:

METRES AND TIME
10 000 km x pi : 6, divided with the numbers of days in a tropical year.
It
 is: 10 000 km x 3.1415926536 : 6 : 365.24219871..=      14335.65939.. m.
 (Pi as 3.1416 gives, 14 335.69..m ).

CUBITS
44 x the diagonal in Cheops ( the side is 440 cubits $B!&(B0.5236 m ). It is
44 x 230.384 m x V2 =
14 335.7358 m.
(Cubit as 3.1416 m : 6 gives, 14 335.702..m ).

The average of these two distances is 14 335.698 m or      14 335.7 m.

MEGALITHIC YARD
1 old foot = 12 old inches = 12 x 0.025399772 m = 0.304797264 m.
1 MYB  ( Megalithic yard Bornholm ) =  10 000 old  feet : 3675 =
2.721088435 old foot =  0.8293803108 m.
1 meter = 1 000 MYB : pi : 264.
1 old foot = 0.3675 MYB.
10 000 MYB x 11 : 9 x V2 =
14
335.7 m.


Finn Harteg
Svanlund@get2net.dk



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:50:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213095251.YZNG319.dorsey@link>

On Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 22:46:17 +0000 Greg Smith
<a_maclintock@hotmail.com> typed:
SNIP
>>>
Skipper is also used with any USMC captain.  Simply because in the USN, the 
Captain is the skipper of the ship.  Ergo, I was "skipper" to most of my 
Marines when assigned at HQMC.  Heck, the whole time I was a Captain, I was 
skipper to someone!  And when I called my carpool buddies at USN Bureau of 
Personnel, I was always "Captain Smith" and got right through to the people 
I needed to talk to.  They always thought I was an O6 calling officially...
<<<
Yep, good one.  Of course, here in the Virginia suburbs of Washington,
D.C., Navy captains and full bird colonels are a dime a dozen but not so
devalued that your phone call isn't handled respectfully.  You might
appreciate this one:    I got mail from my father almost every day in boot
camp, with the return address always saying "Captain, USN" on it.  That
didn't really help my standing with the drill instructors, lol.

Wow, sounds like we missed each other by not much.  I was at HQMC for
awhile working for Maj Bob Lee in Promotions circa 1984.  He's a Damned
Fine Officer, and widely respected.  I understand he's a full bird now and
on the brink of retirement.  He had one war story that was so interesting
somebody finally got him to write it up for the Marine Corps Gazette.  The
same war story that at least partly explains why he isn't a general now.
Most of my time prior to that was in 1st Mar Div.  Spent 1985 at TBS down
in Quantico, firing the last 105 howitzers in the Corps to support the
training there.  I did know a Lt Smith in Pendleton, but that wasn't you as
his MOS was 08.  Heh, I started chewing him out one day for showing up an
hour late to relieve the guard when I was a corporal.  His butter bar on
his raincoat was missing or obscured, and he was brand new to the unit.  He
started to give the same back to me after his face turned solid red and he
revealed his rank, but then just dropped it, even though he was still
ticked.  The two lance corporals present were shocked at first, then dying
from trying not to laugh for the entire ten-minute drive the four of us
took to return to our area.  It later turned out he was a very good
officer, btw.  Oh yeah...I did know a WO Greg Smith whose MOS was 06 after
I was discharged.  He was married to one of my ex-wife's best friends and
also spent a lot of time at HQMC.


SNIP
>>>True!  I was the '4' for the 8th Communications Battalion, 2d FSSG for a 
couple of years.  I owned the 4-shop.  Had a gunny who worked with me.  He 
was my 'Chief'.
<<<
My cousin came in on the Bulldog program not too long after you entered the
Corps, last name of Giornelli.  He did not make Captain before being
discharged.  He was not good material for getting promoted as an officer,
even though he's a very smart guy and very tough.  I believe he was at 2nd
FSSG for awhile, and his MOS was 04.  Wonder if you encountered him?  Come
to think of it, my cousin's life story would make a good player character
or NPC.

>>>
Had a Warrant Officer too.  Called him 'WO' (woe) at times, 
but mostly 'Gunner'.

Oh, and an aside...  Never call a USMC Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.  He'll tell 
you that's a disease.  To your face.  :-)
<<<
Yeah, I forgot to mention those two.  Depends who outranks who, the WO's
personal preferences, and who is around whether you call him WO or not.
The WOs I knew were usually staff sergeants before going to warrant officer
school, if anyone's interested.  :->

>>>
And as a new Officer Candidate (and I'm sure it carries over for recruits, 
and more so) never say "You" when talking to your Platoon Sergeant or 
instructor...  I remember the ONE time I did that.  He went off!  It was 
words to the effect of...and at a distance of about 2 inches....and at a 
decibel level that was damaging...but most effective, "Ewe?!  EWE?!  Did you 
just call me a EWE?  What!?!  Do I have WOOL on my A$$?  You want to F____ 
me?" and so on and so forth until well, until he got tired.  And then he 
started all over again later on.  Priceless...
<<<
Ditto for boot camp.  It takes weeks for them to train their voices to
shout that loud.  I don't suppose you dealt with a Staff Sergeant Gerard at
OCS or TBS, possibly just sergeant?  He was one of my drill instructors in
boot camp and then spent a lot of time as an instructor in Quantico.  I ran
into him there as I was processing out of the Corps, and he was still an
instructor.  Another outstanding Marine.

--Laning Polatty, (former) Sergeant USMC, saluting the Captain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:02:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:02:53 -0000
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost> <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com> <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <00f401c1b474$32ff9060$d96f893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net>

> There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
> for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
> Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)

I don't see why not. My dad was in the Queen's Dragoon Guards, QDG for
short, unofficially known as the Queen's Dancing Girls. I'm sure other
regiments had equally informal monikers.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:13:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:13:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] List of Worlds site
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213101551.ZERY319.dorsey@link>

WOW!  This site is great!  It looks pretty comprehensive.  Thank you very
much.

--Laning

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 09:56:45 +1100, Phill Webb
<pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> typed:
>The only reference at the list of worlds is to a TNS entry.
>	http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 09:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:19:17 PST
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202082244_MC3-F155-2235@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <20213.011917.1K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>> 1. First, that a simple ship design system has to be compatible with a
>> higher detail version so the gearheads are happy.
>
> Actually, with Traveller, this is a key point. One of the major perceived
> failings of T4 was that the design system could not duplicate the designs
> from the other books.
>
> Way back, it was suggested that the top level design system for T5 be
> developed before the "standard ships" to be put in the rulebooks, so there
> wouldn't be a credibility gap.
> <
>
> Well, I actually totally agree with that. 
>
> But in this case I mean that a simpler design system doesn't need to be
> compatible with any PARTICULAR design system. 
>
> You should be able to build all the Traveller ships with the Traveller
> trade-offs. But trying to match a particular design system - rather than
> the standard "Traveller" ships seems like a "requirements flaw" (I'm
> betting there is enough people that understand that concept on this board!)

The thing is. the detail design system has to make logical sense, and
*not* allow stupid sorts of "tuning" designs to breakpoints in the tables.

The simple design system needs to produce ships that work under the
detail system *and* that aren't greatly better or worse. Especially
better. 

A player is going to be justifiably pissed if he puts a lot of work
into a detailed design and another player can put together a *better*
design with the simple system.

And likewise, while the player using the simple system won't be too
upset if his design is somewhat inferior to the one from the detailed
system, he's gonna be understandly upset is it's so much *worse* that
it'sz a major problem.

>>>>>>>> Tell me, how exactly the surface area of your spaceship affects
>>>>>>>> roleplaying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's simple: one of the aspects of roleplaying involves
> knowing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>working with (or around) the capabilities and limitations of
> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>available equipment.  As an analogy, would you be satisfied if
> a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>along the lines of Twilight: 2000 had all pistols, from .22
> caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>>>target pistols to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum, doing the same
> damage?
>
> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 

Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.

>>>>>>Surface area is one of the factors that limits what you can stuff into
> a
>>>>>>starship.  Without that limit, a ship designer can festoon a ship with
>
> Great - tell me how many tons of what I can and can't put into the ship.
> That's valuable, but surface area? That depends on what picture I use for
> the ship! Using surface area is a clever idea, but hardpoints or tons are
> much more 'Travelleresque'. Surface are can be 'fudged' - Traveller has
> obviously not used this - they've used hardpoints. I think it's an
> interesting idea, but not very playable/ workable. 

Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics is
going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 

And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
easy to see it is.

>>>>>>Seriously, if the simple system is incompatible with the detailed
>>>>>>system, then a referee can take away _all_ our gearheading toys by
>>>>>>ruling "Sorry; if it doesn't match the simple system I used to design
>>>>>>these ships, you can't build it."  
>
> So what - the GM can take away ANYTHING they want to! 

Yes, but *intelligent* ones don't do so arbitrarily.

>>>>>>If we create
>>>>>>simple design systems, why shouldn't we take the time and effort to
> make
>>>>>>sure that they reasonably approximate what could be built with the
>>>>>>detailed system?  That way, both parties can be happy.
>
> Yes, but that's VERY different than "fully compatible". I agree they should
> involve similar tradeoffs and build the same kind of ships. I don't agree
> that they should be FULLY compatible. That's seems like an engineering
> misnomer. 

"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system are
still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.

> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression that we
> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in the
> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....

Why not? 

The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
weren't part of the original list.

Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But
they'll be there if they are ever needed.

>>>>>>Far better that even a simple design sequence addresses the details,
> even if
>>>>>>only in a stick-a-module-in fashion.
>
> Not if those details *detract* from the usability of the system. The
> details I mentioned losing are those that detract from using the system
> IMHO. Remember, no one expects the gearhead to use a system that I will
> like! But there's not much point if I wouldn't use it either!

> I don't mind have those 'extraneous' details as optional add-on modules.
> "Generic Hardpoint" versus "Detailed Hardpoint" for example. It's only when
> I can't build a scout ship without measuring the surface area that I balk
> (another exaggerated example). 

Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same volume
(ie "same tonnage").

Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.

Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to know
*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how much
surface area they cover).

And then you'll either discover that they won't all fit on one hull, or
that there are huge gaps between them on another.

And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.

> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
> all. 

But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
coexist in the same universe.

It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
to do away with.

Any halfway decent HG design would eat the best Book 2 design for
lunch. 

And in some of the other editions of Traveller, the "simple" designs
were impossible to create with the design system. *Neither* is
acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in your unioverse.
And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
designs/ships.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:43:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:43:51 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
In-Reply-To: <199.21cfa82.299a08dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AFA37.13439.EDD46C@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 0:57, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> - Imperium Games went belly up.

> - I'm starting my 5th year at SJ Games.

> Draw your own conclusions . . .

With all respect, I somehow doubt that your involvement in IG 
would have made much difference. There were other "factors" (two 
other factors to be specific) that I'd say pretty much guaranteed the 
eventual sad outcome.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 00:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:13:40 PST
Subject: [TML] Companion Stars
In-Reply-To: <20020124192344.84228.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20212.161340.5j7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have a simple question (yeah right!) about the
> Expanded System Creation.  I believe that for the most
> part the rules are the same for most of the game
> systems, but for what it is worth, I'm using the TNE
> book.
>
> Here is the question...
>
> Suppose I am rolling up a system and I roll a 12 for
> step 3 on the System Nature Table for a trinary
> system.
>
> Now, further suppose that I roll a 12 for both the
> first and second companion orbits in step 7.  The
> result is a far orbit for both.  (Actually a roll of
> 8+ for the second companion will do the same.)
>
> Now, for the final assumption.  Say I roll a 9+ for
> both of the natures of the of the companions on the
> System Nature Table (Step 10).  They are both binary
> systems.
>
> Now the questions...
>
> 1.  This means I have a Quintuple star system?!?!
>
> 2.  Is this possible?  (Granted it is a .002964%
> chance, but that is one in every 500 systems.)

I don't know about TNE, but for CT (Scouts) expanded generation, there
was a DM for the secondary and tertiary stars. As I recall it was (just
barely) possible to get a 4 star system.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:46:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab inquiry
In-Reply-To: <200202130349.g1D3ndC08736@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213104853.ZGVY319.dorsey@link>

Mt. Whincup, as you may have already discovered since the time you posted
your inquiry, visit the official LandGrab Web site at
http://www.downport.com/landgrab and check out
http://www.spinwardmarches.com too.

The material people create for the LandGrab is not canon.  The person
writing up a system for the LandGrab tries to discover all canonical
information first, and usually but not always keeps their write up
consistent with that.  Consistency with canon is certainly strongly hoped
for, IMHO, but these creative types can be so difficult to control.
Besides, canon sometimes isn't consistent with itself.  Write ups vary in
style and thoroughness, and which edition of Traveller the writer has in mind.

Despite the existence of the official LandGrab site, I thought it was
protocol to inquire first on the TML before making a formal claim to Grab a
system.  If that custom is outdated, someone please advise.

As I understand your reply, Mr. Whincup, the ISS research post and the plot
links are strictly in your Traveller universe (IYTU), and not in any
published material.  I'm a little confused whether you're asking me to
include this material in my LandGrab write up?  Probably not, but maybe.
If you want to provide the material to me to include, then I'll be glad to
try my best to use anything consistent with what I've already established.
Credit for the write up will be shared with you when I post the results.

If I do Grab Pscias, then the beginnings of my write up can be found in the
information about my character's home planet in one of Tod Glenn's games,
accessible by visiting http://www.travellercentral.com then clicking the
PBeM link, then clicking Dark Encounters link, then clicking the PCs link
near the top of the page, then clicking Krowaka.  While mentioning Tod's
game, I have to say that he's doing a great job refereeing.  My fellow
players are just as great, and everyone's really making the play-by-email
experience fun.  I was a little worried that it would be unwieldy, but it's
not a problem at all, at least with the right people.

--Laning
"The surest sign that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe
is that they have never attempted to contact us."  -Bill Waterston, Calvin
& Hobbes
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 00:14:46, Andrew Whincup <shanhat@angelfire.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
>
>I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain
the concept to me?
>
>Cheers
>
>Other thant that I've no real thoughts on Pscias other than I've put an
ISS research post there and there a couple of links to an ongoing plot I've
got. If you could implement that then anything else would be great.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:53:02 -0600
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C69F12E.7382.5FE83@localhost>

to quote the clancy brothers at one point, who said the germans called the highlanders "The 
Ladies from hell"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 11:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <F262Z4wxTTpSRXCbcxv000144fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Andrew MacLintock <a_maclintock@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was
insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the
USN.>>

Hey!  "Chief" is the highest compliment one human being can pay another
-- but only if the recipient has "earned" it...

 
<<As for officers, the only slang names I can think of at the moment
are:  (1) boot looey, boot lieutenant or butter bar, for 2nd lieutenant
(better outrank them if you're going to address them that way to their
face)>>

"En-swine" in the USN.

<<The Boot Lieutenant though is a specific 2dlt who is THE boot.  The
lowest ranking lieutenant.>>

In the Navy, the senior Ensign is known as the Bull*.  The junior
Ensign is known as the George.

<<(2) first looey, for 1st lieutenant  (better outrank them if you're
going to address them that way to their face)>>

Just to add to the confusion, in the USN, First Lieutenant is a title
rather than a rank, and, at least aboard the ship I served on, was held
by a Lieutenant Commander.

*I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 11:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:31:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6A4EAD.68E08B24@mindspring.com>

If there was any justice in the world, you would now be buying me a new keyboard. I
hope I can get all the grapefruit pulp out.

Gerry Harris wrote:

> *I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
> when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
> the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 12:41:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:41:41 +1300
Subject: [TML] Forms of military address
In-Reply-To: <20020213031839.WXZW319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B15D5.764.74327C@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2002, at 22:16, Laning wrote:
> I've always thought it
> would be cool to give pay raises for both seniority and merit, in addition to
> the pay raise that comes with a promotion.  That way there's no pressure to
> promote people simple to keep their pay competitive and retain them in the
> service.  You can give them competitive pay while keeping them at the rank they
> actually earn.

NZ has this. It has some 'interesting' effects because of how it's assesed. The 
system was introduced to do just what you suggested - keep people in the 
service. Because of this the qualifications, etc., that garner the most extra 
pay are those recognised in 'civie street' - chefs' certs, engineering degrees 
and so on. Add in little things like non-combat corps getting bonuses for field 
deployments (because it's tough trying to cook in a tent and live in one too) 
which the tooth arms don't (because it's our job to live in tents - or worse) 
and it should come as no surprise that the tooth arms get the worst recruits 
and have the biggest retention problem (it'd be worse but for the fact that 
unemployment's reasonably high, so ex-grunts find it hard to get work if they 
leave).

It should also come as no surpirse to learn that the tooth arms tend to have 
morale problems, especially if the budget's really tight because that cuts into 
their training more than anyone else's (in the army that is - no money really 
kills the navy and airforce training programs).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 12:35:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:35:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F205Lo7vhd0zV7RPoSn0000fd06@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213073039.01c6c788@192.168.0.1>

You are ever so correct so.  It can be a source of problems as well.

Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in the 50's 
and 60's still in use.
These were designed for a typical call length being 2-5 minutes.
Enter the 90's and everyone and their brother-in-law has a modem.  Call 
lengths shoot from 2-5 minutes to 2-5 hours.
The local telecos are scrambling to add circuits above and beyond what 
their projections for population increase called for.

I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more often than 
for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits.

ObTrav:  Lots of infrastructure games for the PCs to muck with.


At 04:51 AM 2/13/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>     "RL example.  A few years ago, I was in Berlin and the surrounding
>areas of what used to be East German.  Residential buildings had 1' TV 
>satellites attached by each apartment window.  These buildings were built 
>no later than the 40's.  It was cheaper to put up these dishes and make 
>use of the orbital infrastructure than to run cable to each and every 
>building/apartment."
>     "Same with Cell phones."
>Mr. Urbin,
>     That's one aspect of increasing TLs that I feel have never been 
> adequately explored; "industrial inertia".  The more infrastructure 
> already in place for the "old" TL and longer it has been there, the 
> harder it should be to replace it.  Especially if the new device's or 
> infrastructure's function is already handled "well enough" or can be 
> handled "well enough" by the old device or infrastructure in the 
> populations' eyes.
>     Case in point.  The EU stole the march on wireless technology because 
> it was an end around a particular infrastructure bottleneck, that being 
> wires running to every house and apartment.  The US naturally looked to 
> dial-up modems and cable TV becaue there was a wire, and all those 
> telephone poles, already standing there.  Other nations, especially 
> without the massive wire and pole investment the US has, simply "jumped 
> over" that stage of development.  While most folks in the EU and other 
> places get there TV and internet via wireless methods, the majority of 
> the US population gets the same services over wires.  The US is using a 
> lower TL infrastructure to provide a higher TL service becasue the 
> lo-tech infrastructure is already in place.
>     Another RW example can be found in Mexico.  A brother-in-law works in 
> telecommunication consulting and has visited Mexico on that business for 
> decades now.  For a variety of cultural reasons, the wait for a phone 
> landline in that country was measured in years.  Then cell phones got 
> cheap.  While the Mexican phone company was still struggling to raise 
> poles and string lines for landline phone service, other companies built 
> microwave towers and sold cell phones.  Currently, the majority of 
> Mexicans use cell phones as their primary telephone as opposed to the 
> majority of Americans who have cell phones as only a secondary phone.  If 
> you used the cell phone/landline phone as a development yardstick, Mexico 
> would be more developed than the US.
>     How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
> Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
> grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
> lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use them?
>     I call it "industrial inertia", but I'm sure the sociology boffins 
> have some more accurate term for it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 13:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:49:54 -0500
Subject: AW: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
Message-ID: <200202130849_MC3-F1CA-7977@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>> Fuzion not only _is_ a mesh, but it
>>>>>looks and feels like one too - bad game design (do you remember the
early
>>>>>editions were they basically said: "for skill rolls, take 1d10 or 2d6
-
>>>>>whatever"?)

That seems to have bothered alot of people. I had no particular problem
with it. Some people like the bell curve, some people dont. FUZION allows
whichever is preferred. 

I do agree that they didn't try to create a new system so much as slap
together a backwards compatible system that didn't please too many people. 

>>>>>Now that you mention it - my Interlock days are long gone and I can't
>>>>>remember any specific thing. It's more that IMO they spoiled a decent
>>>>>realistic system (Interlock) by adding a system that uses comic book
physics
>>>>>as it's base assumption and didn't even worked out the rough edges
that
>>>>>invariably appear when meshing two entirely different systems.

I can't disagree with that!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:50:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=FF?= Miltary stories
Message-ID: <200202130850_MC3-F1CA-797E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>of a relatively easy to cure and easy to identify STD.  The father was 
tested for the STD during routine testing and found to also have the same 
strain of relatively rare STD as did his child.

If you have a story you'd like to share, knowing that others might archive 
such a story for later use in their campaigns - feel free ;)
<

Is this going to be in a Double Adventure? Are you going to be running this
Traveller game at a convention? ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:32:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:32:15 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F35eya96pfvKPGmMzr100014f61@hotmail.com>

><<Never called them 'Chief' like some in the Army did.  That was
>insulting, as it was what you call the Chief Petty Officers in the
>USN.>>
>
>Hey!  "Chief" is the highest compliment one human being can pay another
>-- but only if the recipient has "earned" it...
>
>In the Navy, the senior Ensign is known as the Bull*.  The junior
>Ensign is known as the George.

I had forgotten that.  And IIRC, the Boot is called "Mister Vice" at formal 
Dinings In or Mess Nights.

>*I've often wonderered ... Since the term "Bull Ensign" came into vogue
>when only men were allowed to serve in Navy Blue, now that women are in
>the ranks would the senior female Ensign be called "Cow Ensign?"


LOL!  This one brought tears to my eyes, and questions from across the hall!

Cheers,

Greg




Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:36:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F122NbtFqFBjz30ef8r000174e6@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>

     "Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in
the 50's and 60's still in use.  The local telecos are scrambling to add 
circuits above and beyond what their projections for population increase 
called for."

     "I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more
often than for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits."


Mr. Urbin,

     Superb example sir!  "Industrial inertia" at it's finest.  Because 
we've sunk so much capital into a now obsolescent, but still servicable, 
system we will still try to work with it rather than replace it.  The local 
telecos will continue to repair, replace, and manufacture equipment from the 
50's or 60's and try to shoehorn 90's and 00's equipment into the mix.  
There are tons and tons of "old" infrastructure is still around, so why not 
try and continue to use it?
     One of the many Traveller examples of this would be the backwater world 
in the Chamax Double Adventure.  That planet is at a ~1940s level of 
technology and doesn't see a lot of off-world trade (the PCs get stuck there 
for months without any other starships making orbit), so most of what the 
planet has they make for themselves.
     The major hi-tech artifact on world, other than the PCs' ship, is a 
automated fusion power plant tucked away along the shore of a sleepy 
peninsular.  This plant is a "gift from the Emperor".  Apparently some heavy 
engineering branch of the IISS or IN or some civilian contractors arrived, 
installed it, and left.
     This 57th century goodie happily purrs along and pumps lots of MWs into 
a 1940's distribution net!  The main trunk line between plant and popualtion 
centers may be a buried, 57th century, superconducting cable, but the juice 
would still flow into factories, offices, and homes via locally manufactured 
distribution net.  After all, the folks installing the Emperor's gift 
wouldn't and couldn't have rewired the entire planet!
     Pa Whipsnade had a summer job prior to visiting Korea during the 
shooting season.  He worked in an electrical substation, fetching coffee and 
what-not for the regular employees and watching the old-timers work the 
substation's switches.  They did so wearing leather guantlets and smocks 
while wielding long wooden poles.  The switches themselves were housed in 
what he described as a concrete bunker within a normal looking building.
     I get a kick picturing the inhabitants of that low-tech world switching 
and re-routing by hand the electrical power generated by fusing hydrogen 
atoms.


     Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 14:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:50:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Forms of military address
Message-ID: <F2587BoCIwazfJLvf3B00008ed6@hotmail.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>>For what it's worth, I had platoon leaders that you could call L-T, and
>>>others who acted like you had slapped them in the face.  From my
>>>recollection, the relaxed ones were better leaders.
>>
>>Any relationship to the officers a) 'newness' and/or b) 'combat
>>effectivness' ?
>
>Not really.  Newly minted butterbars tend to be a bit more aware of their
>exalted status as officers and gentlemen, but most of the relax.  One of
>the most together officers I ever knew would go ballistic if you called him
>LT, while my platoon leader had no trouble with it.

I remember at The Basic School (TBS), the school where all new USMC Officers 
are first assigned, that some of the instructors and company staff were 
first lieutenants.  They used to wear us 2ndLts out if we ever passed them 
by and didn't salute.  "Don't you know you are supposed to salute senior 
officers?  What Company are you from?" were the questions, which, when you 
reached the fleet, you learned was bunk.  No lieutenants salute each other.  
I remember two occassions.

1) All new Marine officers attend TBS, even those who are going to be 
lawyers.  They come in having been appointed as 1stLts already, and then 
finish law school.  But they wear the rank of 1stLt while in TBS.  Of 
course, one of these walked right by the snottiest 1stLt instructor who 
proceeded to use that line on him, to which he responded by telling him to 
pack sand, as he carried the same rank.  Wasn't much, but to the rest of us 
in the vicinity, it was priceless.

2) One 2ndLt from 2d Bn / 8th Marine Regiment (2/8) came for a visit to one 
of his friends or a brother or something like that.  He was dressed in his 
uniform, and walked right by another one of the prick 1stLt instructors, 
without saluting.  The same questions were asked by the instructor, to which 
the 2ndLt responded, "Weapons Company, 2/8.  What's it to you?"  This time, 
however, the 1stLt understood his position and immediately warmed, and began 
asking the 'crusty' 2ndLt what it had been like landing on Grenada and 
Bieruit.

But I found that most 2ndLts quickly warmed to the role of Platoon Commander 
and lost that prickly exterior, especially once they got into the fleet.  
YMMV!

Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:08:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:08:55 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Miltary_?=
 stories
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1b474$32ff9060$d96f893e@fabian>
References: <3C6A4B91.1733.3C6E9E@localhost>
 <3C6998FB.9060609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
 <3C69FAB8.24364853@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:02 AM 2/13/02 +0000, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net>
>
> > There is _no_ derogatory term for Imperial Army personnel.  Take my word
> > for it.  (As a posthumous Unified Army recipient of the Starburst for
> > Extreme Heroism [*], I know whereof I speak.) ;-)
>
>I don't see why not. My dad was in the Queen's Dragoon Guards, QDG for
>short, unofficially known as the Queen's Dancing Girls. I'm sure other
>regiments had equally informal monikers.

John was being as usual, a bit silly.

While I don't recall putting any specific derogatory terms for the Army in 
GF, there has to be a few.  Probably based on the on the local Unified 
Army's location and known quirks.

I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of 
Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The Unified 
Army of Morons"?

Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be 
common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson 
mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:11:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:11:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab inquiry - Pscias
In-Reply-To: <EMGOIDFDJIFOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071028.009ea8f0@mindspring.com>

At 12:14 AM 2/13/02 +0000, you wrote:
>I've been hearing some use of the phrase "landgrab". Can someone explain 
>the concept to me?

Simply put, you grab a world in one of the published sources, lay a claim 
on it, then detail the hell out of it.  Once you are done, you post your 
work here, or on Downport for all to enjoy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:11:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:11:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: mR gRENADE
In-Reply-To: <B88F590E.2535C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212223526.02604ac0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071127.02578d90@mail.verizon.net>

Yeah, that's what that "special" glove is made for. :-D

At 11:43 PM 2/12/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 2/12/02 10:36 PM, Charles McKnight at res0i3sf@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > Aw shucks, and here I've been operating under the impression all these
> > years that Mr. Grenade doesn't stop being our friend until the spoon falls
> > off.........  ;-)
> >
>
>Unless you've lost the pin.  Then you've got a friend for life.
>
>--
>When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>--
>Tod L Glenn
>webmaster@travellercentral.com
>http://www.travellercentral.com
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com
>http://www.solsec.org


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:40:03 -0000
Subject: [TML] =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:_Re:_=5BTML=5D_Re:__Miltary_s?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?tories?=
In-Reply-To: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEIMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I believe that it IS an offence over here (UK) to be drunk in charge of a
bicycle on the public highway.  I'm also reasonably certain that speeding on
a bicycle is an offence as well.

This seems to be an artifact of some strange wordings in law; e.g. Being
drunk in charge of a _Vehicle_ on a _public_ highway.  ISTR that someone has
been successfully convicted of driving a foot scooter whilst drunk.

Another weird one whilst I'm on the subject is that in the UK motorcycles
are classed for tax purposes as bicycles, and that this seems to be the
reason you can be done for drunk in charge of a bicycle etc.  (also causing
confusion when you get a tax disk for your 750cc bicycle)

ObTrav 1: Law skill may be the ability to figure out that a law that does
not seem to affect your air raft when you read it, does because it is
classed as a vehicle and the airspace above towns are classed as public
highways :)

ObTrav 2 : Are starships/spaceships covered by some vehicle laws when
operating in atmosphere?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert A. Uhl
> Sent: 12 February 2002 11:35
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 06:41:32PM -0500, alan spik wrote:
> >
> > Imagine my surprise when the officer pulls up to me and asks me if I
> > know how fast I was going?  Eventually I wound up in court and was
> > convicted for speeding (32 in a 25 zone), I received a nice lecture
> > and a fine for $51. I'm just glad The officer didn't think to give
> > me a sobriety test as I wouldn't have passed.
>
> I didn't think speed limits applied to bikes.  It certainly doesn't
> make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the damage a driver
> will.  I'm fairly certain the riding intoxicated isn't an offense.  I
> certainly hope it's not; back in college I weaved back from a party
> more than once.  It's part of the nice thing about a bike: gives you
> more range than on foot, yet you can still ride it drunk.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:20:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:20:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202121623.g1CGNYm01694@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>

At 10:40 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >It certainly doesn't make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the 
> damage a driver
> >will.

OK, I have to address this.

In 1998, a SuperShuttle driving through San Francisco's finacial distrcit 
struck and killed a bike messanger who had run a red light.  The van was 
doing the speed limit, the bike was, according to witnesses going faster 
than the cars around him.

The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the 
van sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We 
settled out of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police 
report clearing placing the blame on the bicyclist.

All in all, this incident cost us a veteran driver and several million 
dollars in fees, settlements, and raised insurance rates.  That, and the 
bashed in grill on the van.

Yes, the other guy died, but it was his stupidity that did him in.  We did 
everything right, and nearly had to lay people off.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 15:58:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:58:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Military___stories?=
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1b4a7$5d3cfa60$0f01a8c0@terry>

> I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of
> Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The
> Unified Army of Morons"?
> 
> Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be
> common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson
> mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".

Knowing the military love of naming things, Infantry: Slow moving,
self-propelled, pop up targets.

Terry 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:03:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:03:36 -0000
Subject: [TML] =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_=5BTML=5D_Derogatory_terms_Was:__Miltary_stories?=
In-Reply-To: <3C69ED7D.B1F22C76@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEINCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Considering how long some slangterms have already survived in the armed
forces (and elsewhere) I would imagine they arestill in use.  Along with the
interservice rivalries.  IMTU marines are Bootnecks, Pilots tend to be
Brycreem boys etc. (Though this is partly a Metagame artifact, allowing my
players to more readily identify with the universe)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alan spik
> Sent: 13 February 2002 04:37

> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I
> don't know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are
> space navy sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:39:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:39:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:40 PM 2/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >It certainly doesn't make sense, as a bicyclist isn't going to cause the 
> > damage a driver
> > >will.
> 
> OK, I have to address this.
> 
> In 1998, a SuperShuttle driving through San Francisco's finacial distrcit 
> struck and killed a bike messanger who had run a red light.  The van was 
> doing the speed limit, the bike was, according to witnesses going faster 
> than the cars around him.
> 
> The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
> veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
> back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the 
> van sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We 
> settled out of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police 
> report clearing placing the blame on the bicyclist.
> 
> All in all, this incident cost us a veteran driver and several million 
> dollars in fees, settlements, and raised insurance rates.  That, and the 
> bashed in grill on the van.
> 
> Yes, the other guy died, but it was his stupidity that did him in.  We did 
> everything right, and nearly had to lay people off.

I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
before my train left.

Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
license.  We need to stop treating bicyclists like innocent little kids
who are always in the right because a bicycle is NOT a child's toy and
people get killed on them and can also cause deaths on them.  The fact
that bikes are good for the environment should not give bicyclists a
holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the right to do whatever
they want in the street. 

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Trasler)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:50:25 -0600
Subject: [TML] US vs Commonwealth Ranks
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020212225207.02c88800@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV35KXGA7zyWR4Atg200000f65@hotmail.com>

Note that enlisted ranks in the British Army vary from regiment to regiment,
the Household Cavalry and the Royal Artillery being the two most obvious
departures from the norm.


> I think the thing to remember is that the positions different ranks fill
> are different in the armies. For example.
>
> Position US Commonwealth
> Rifleman: >Corporal Private
> Squad Cdr Sergeant Corporal
> Platoon Sgt Staff Sgt Sergeant
> CSM 1st Sergeant WO2 (CSM)
> Platoon Cdr Lieutenant Lieutenant-Captain
> Company Cdr Captain Major
> Battalion Cdr Major Lt. Colonel
>
> In all cases, the person at a given rank would have had longer service in
> the commonwealth model, and would be of a lower rank.
>
> A friend of a friend (a WO2) was attached to the US army, and was given
the
> privileges of his US equivalents rank, a Brigadier General, but that was a
> specialised field.
>
> Bryn
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <F82jmMPqngL6wxvw0ID0000230d@hotmail.com>

Kelly St.Clair <kellys@efn.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:37:13 -0500, "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> >Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass...<snip>...Stay away,
> > >but give us the dough.
> >
> >College towns usually feel the same way about their student
> >populations.
>
>(as a former college student, and current
>resident of the same college town)

Same here...I can look out the window of my office at
the university where I work and see the campus of the
university where I got my 4-year degree.

>[In all fairness] to the transient populations in
>question...<snip>
>After a few years of dealing with overgrown children who are
>without  supervision (parental and/or military) for the first
>time in their lives, noisily experimenting with sex, drugs,
>vehicles and property damage in the usual combinations, even
>the most even-tempered policeman or bartender can find his
>patience and goodwill toward his fellow man sorely tested.

Your description of college students would apply pretty well
to many members of the armed forces, especially those who have
recently enlisted - and for exactly the same reasons.  Young
military men have been experimenting with sex, drugs and
property damage for millenia, long before there even was such
a thing as a college student.

Only a tiny percentage of the thousands of college students
in my town cause any trouble.  I'm sure the same could be
said of the soldiers at any military base, unless the
military in question has noxious cultural defects - like
every unit being the personal cadre of a bandit chief in
uniform, for example.

Obtrav: Cultural clashes between militaries.

One culture might see the military as the proper way to take
young adults and mold them into mature adults, so has short
terms of service, a large ex-military population, and may look
at people still in uniform as somewhat unfinished.  People
who have never been in uniform might be seen as some kind of
perpetual child, never having gone through the essential
(to this culture) "character building" of military service,
but people who elect to stay in uniform might be seen as
oddities as well.

Another culture may view military service mainly as a career
for the "military minded", who are all expected to stay in the
military for the majority of their adult lives.  The military
culture might become quite isolated from the civilian culture,
relying on hereditary recruitment and strong traditions.

The two cultures could exist in the same military.  Imagine
a culture where officers are all from an aristocracy, and
they'll never be taken seriously unless they've served (even
just for show) with a regiment.  The rank-and-file might see
military service as a temporary job that kids get while they're
still trying to find themselves, or that people get drafted
into if they haven't the money, skills or connections to
avoid it.  The NCO's might be the ones who keep the traditions
of this military, arranging for the "right people" (their
sons, daughters, or others of the "right mind") to pass through
enlisted ranks into NCO status quickly.  Mix and match to taste.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:55:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:55:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3C6AA892.8080500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Shane Slamet wrote:

> 
> Bummer...
> I guess it puts some perspective on certain events way back in 2000.  That's
> when we marched on parliament house and demanded to know why we had reached
> the year 2000 and we didn't have anti-grav jetpacks (and ray guns, and maid
> bots, and those neat silver suits with bubble helmets).

See, they're protecting you. You sould have gotten the fold-up and punt 
you out of bed bed, the high speed treadmill to walk your dog on and 
Talkie Toaster.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 18:10:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:10:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump Fuel Canon (was Re: Regents...)
Message-ID: <F261pCxlICSsiWdBdsn0000cd7a@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>
>      "Interesting aside...in my copy of High Guard 1st edition (but
>*not* 2nd edition), Jump Governors are listed.  Jump Governors allow a ship
>to burn less than all her jump fuel, if she jumps less than her maximum 
>jump
>rating - meaning, of course, that the default in CT once was that all fuel
>gets burned.  I don't have a copy of the very first version of CT Book 2,
>but I wouldn't be surprised if Jump Governors showed their heads there as
>well."
>
>
>Mr. Smith,
>
>I remember them from HG1 also.  My ancient synapses may be
>playing tricks on me but are there any costs for jump
>governors listed?  Any tonnage requirements perhaps?  Any tables
>so you can purchase and install them in your designs?  IIRC,
>there were not.

Sorry I took a while to answer - my copy of HG1 was on an
attic shelf.

p32, HG 1st edition, has rules for Jump Governors.  They
cost 300,000Cr, take up one ton of space, and are available
at TL10 and up.

They are to be installed in Book 2 ships, as the military
drives available in Book 5 have jump governors installed
as standard.

>If you can't choose whether or not to "buy" and "install" the
>device, the device is not an option, it is part of the standard equipment, 
>like reverse in a automobile transmission.

It looks like Jump Governors were not initially part of
standard equipment, the first edition of Book 5 (High Guard)
took the first steps toward making the governors standard
equipment, later editions completed the process.  Then DGP's
MT work went back the other way.

>Jump governors are a part of the OTU's standard jump drive
>"package",  along with zucchai(?) crystals and hull grids.

Hmmm...I thought hull grids were an unusual artifact of
DGP's work, and not completely canonized. ;-)

One thing about a "No Jump Governors" universe - it might
tend to specialize starships a bit more.  If your fleet
is TL13, operating in a region of space where jump-2 is
pretty good, you might build your fleet with jump-2
drives; jump-4 drives in this environment would mean that
jumping in and jumping out without refueling would require
a prohibitive 80% of your hull to be fuel.  The guy who built
jump-4 drives anyway would potentially have twice the strategic
mobility, but would have a much harder time retreating from any
of his bad decisions.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:05:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:05:01 EST
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <148.9762bcc.299c12dd@aol.com>

In a message dated 13/02/02 04:50:51 GMT Standard Time, 
babyduck@mindspring.com writes:


> I resemble that remark. But I don't know if I should be offended.
> 
> Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't 
> know if
> leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy 
> sailors
> called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

Well space navy sailors who work in a zero-g environment are going to be 
floaters...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:19:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <20020213191901.4494.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
a few references to words and their translations.  If
anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
as well.  If you can send it off the list as I don't
know that the raw data and discussion would be good
for bandwidth.  I have some ideas and I'm trying to
formulate them into something presentable, but I don't
want to redo work that has already been done.

Thanks

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:38:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:38:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #156
In-Reply-To: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213192252.02c03750@pop.mail.yahoo.co.uk>


>Note that enlisted ranks in the British Army vary from regiment to regiment,
>the Household Cavalry and the Royal Artillery being the two most obvious
>departures from the norm.

True, I'm in the Liverpool Irish, an RA troop (once 3x Infantry 
Battalions), so we address our Privates as Gunners, our Corporals as 
Bombardiers (which abbreviates as Bdr, causing a lot of problems, such as 
the case of the young Bdr coming back from Belieze to find that someone had 
read Bdr as Brigadier and a brass band et al. was waiting for him).

Several Infantry Regiments use different titles for Privates, for example:

Fusilier (Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Royal Highland Fusiliers and Royal 
Welch Fusiliers)
Ranger (Royal Irish)
Highlander (The Highlanders (Queens Own and Gordons), Argyll and Sutherland 
Highlanders, Black Watch)
Kingsman (Kings Regiment)
Guardsman (All Guards Regiments)
Rifleman (Royal Greenjackets and Royal Gurkha Rifles)
Paratrooper (Parachute Regiment)

and some Corps have different titles:

Trooper (Cavalry, Royal Marines and SAS)
Air Trooper (AAC)
Craftsman (REME)

etc.

Back On Topic, what's the correct term of address for an Imperial Marine?

Bryn



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 19:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:34:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Language:  VARGR
References: <20020213191901.4494.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6ABFE1.3418B817@sitraka.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
> a few references to words and their translations.  If
> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
> as well.  

At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?

That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.

Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 17:53:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:53:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net>

On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> license.

Agreed that cyclists should obey the laws--but I do believe that they
should be different for cars, motorcycles and bicycles.  Cars take a
relatively long time to slow down, compared to bikes and motorbikes.
And I'm against licensing, but I'm against car licensing too, at least
in principle.

Agreed too that bicyclists, unlike pedestrians, are not always in the
right.

> The fact that bikes are good for the environment should not give
> bicyclists a holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the
> right to do whatever they want in the street.

This may also be a cultural thing.  In semi-rural Texas no-one gives a
damn about how environmentally friendly you are--at least where I was.
You give a damn about how big their trucks and cars are.  Bicyclists
definitely do not have the attitude they apparently do in places like
San Francisco.  At least not for long, anyway.

But then, I was only riding a bicycle because I couldn't afford a car.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, if nature abhors a vacuum, she must really have it in for your
brain.                                           --Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020213034226.XEHL319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.1397.40E743@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 7:20, Douglas Berry wrote:

> The van had seven people onboard, plus the driver.  The driver, a 12 year 
> veteran, had to go on stress related disability, and was not able to come 
> back to work.  He couldn't even drive anymore.  Threee of the people on the van
> sued SuperShuttle alleging various levels of stress and trauma.  We settled out
> of court.  The family of the biker sued us, despite a police report clearing
> placing the blame on the bicyclist.

While there is a place for litigation this is taking litigiousness too far, 
IMO. I suppose the family had little enough money it wasn't worth the cost of 
sueing them for casts or anything, either.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[TML]_RE:_[TML]_Derogatory_terms_Was:=A0_Military___stories?=
In-Reply-To: <000201c1b4a7$5d3cfa60$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213070407.009ef1e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.16373.40E761@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 9:58, tmixon wrote:

> > I mean, do you think any self-respecting member of the Unified Army of
> > Rhylanor would be able to resist calling his rimward neighbors "The
> > Unified Army of Morons"?
> > 
> > Within the army, friendly slurs between branches will be
> > common.  Artillerists will be called "missile monkeys" or "meson
> > mechanics", tankers "sled heads", and the infantry as "crunchies".
> 
> Knowing the military love of naming things, Infantry: Slow moving,
> self-propelled, pop up targets.

That would be: Targets, pop up, slow movement, self propelled.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:12:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:12:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] RE: [TML] Re: [TML] Re: Re: [TML] Re:  Miltary s	tories
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEIMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <20020212043529.A31196@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B7F73.28739.40E752@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 15:40, Peter Scarrott wrote:

> I believe that it IS an offence over here (UK) to be drunk in charge of a
> bicycle on the public highway.  I'm also reasonably certain that speeding on a
> bicycle is an offence as well.

In NZ the latter is most certainly an offence, as a friend of mine found out 
when caught doing 100 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. (He was slip-streaming a truck, 
also speeding). As for the former, I'm pretty sure that is also an offence, 
though I don't know anyone who's been done for it.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:30:48 -0000
Subject: [TML] Derogatory Terms
References: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c1b4cd$6c2bf500$3265a8c0@pbncomputer>


According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer to ground personnel as
"Speed bumps".

I'm not sure whether I'm responsible for that, or not.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, QuikLink Interactive
Author: Behind the Throne, The Eye of Glory

>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:17:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:17:21 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>

On 13 Feb 2002, at 8:39, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
> law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
> because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
> cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
> even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
> work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
> bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
> before my train left.

Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their 
way is asking for it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 20:31:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:31:43 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>



"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:39:00AM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> > driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> > license.
> 
> Agreed that cyclists should obey the laws--but I do believe that they
> should be different for cars, motorcycles and bicycles.  Cars take a
> relatively long time to slow down, compared to bikes and motorbikes.
> And I'm against licensing, but I'm against car licensing too, at least
> in principle.

I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:

M * V^2 = R, where

M=Mass
V=Velocity
R=Right-of-way

<<snip>>
> 
> This may also be a cultural thing.  In semi-rural Texas no-one gives a
> damn about how environmentally friendly you are--at least where I was.
> You give a damn about how big their trucks and cars are.  Bicyclists
> definitely do not have the attitude they apparently do in places like
> San Francisco.  At least not for long, anyway.
> 
It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 21:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:42:33 -0000
Subject: [TML] Megalithic yard
In-Reply-To: <000301c1b46c$6ea59ea0$d96f893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCOELJDKAA.andy@exeus.com>

> This looks clever on the face of it, but it is on the exact same level as
> the maths that demonstrate that it is possible to derive the number 666
> from almost any name or its initials, thereby 'proving' that person X is
> the spawn of the devil. Numerology doesn't really prove anything, and it
> would be more remarkable if you *couldn't* derive these numbers from
> established units.

I'd disagree. You are confusing numerology with archaeology, which are
different things. You might as well compare chalk and cheese.

Numerology is a hokum new age thing as defined by Cheiro (sp?) and others -
it is founded in the Qabbalah (sp? - I'm having a bad night !) and similar
teachings and has no relationship AFAIK to the more rational, serious and
scientific subject of archaeology, nor does it have any real solid
foundation or meaning apart from the mystical interpretation.

I can find a consistent method to extract the megalithic yard from various
simple and repeatable measurements of stone circles, tumuli et al. (Take a
close look at the surveys of the stone circles of the UK and Europe in
general and you will find that they all are based on a standardised unit).
You cannot however demonstrate a _consistent_ method to get 666 from
people's names or initials - what works for one person won't work for
another unless you pull some kind of mathematical sleight of hand somewhere.
It will only work on one or a few cases at best, whereas the MY works for
_many_ cases.

I note that archaeologists are split over the existence of the Megalithic
Yard, and as a result it is not archaeological "canon" as such, nor does
this calculation proove that the MY existed, of course, but it does form
part of a growing, substantial body of evidence which is hard to deny.

Now, can we get back to Traveller, please ?

Regards

Andy Brick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 21:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:32:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6ADB64.E9A11BA0@sympatico.ca>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2002, at 8:39, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

snip

> > before my train left.
>
> Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their
> way is asking for it.

No matter where I play a Pedestrian, Cyclist, Blader, or Motorist I know that
once I leave the curb I am in play and behave accordingly.  Except in areas of
Toronto and Montreal, where from the city limits in you are potentially a speed
bump waiting for a place to happen.

Michael


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:01:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <200202131905.g1DJ5Ow15757@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020213220323.DADR319.dorsey@link>

Exactly.  I'm on the opposite coast and a devoted cyclist, so in some ways
I'm seeing the issue from the opposite side to the TMLers who just posted
from SF on this.  I read and publish in all the same cycling magazines,
newsgroups, etc. that those San Francisco cyclists read and publish in.
San Francisco seems to have a very unique subculture within the bicycling
subculture!  From my vantage, they come off as everything they've just been
accused of here on the TML.  Extreme, arrogant, impractical, rude, and
dangerous.  Or at least, there's a thousand or so very active and vocal
ones who do.  My guess is that the average regular cyclist in the Bay Area
is much more reasonable.  You can't find another area within the US that is
comparable to SF for extreme "cycling advocates", however.

ObTrav:  Just because Baedekker's describes Mora's major cities a certain
way, do NOT expect each of its cities to have the same culture and
attitudes, even within mostly homogenous cultural regions on Mora there
will sometimes be very big differences.  Refereeing this sort of thing well
will give players a realistic feel of travelling through a vast and varied
universe.

--Laning
Bicycling on a country road on a warm, sunny day without seeing a single
car for hours is heaven touching upon earth.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 08:39:00 -0800 (PST), Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> typed:
>I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
>law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
>because they don't drive cars.  <<<SNIP>>>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:06:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:06:49 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net> <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>
Message-ID: <006e01c1b4da$bc46a0a0$6501a8c0@home.com>

1st rule of safe road biking: Know and obey *all* traffic laws.
2nd rule of safe road biking: Expect no auto driver to know or obey *any*
traffic laws.

> I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
> M * V^2 = R, where
>
> M=Mass
> V=Velocity
> R=Right-of-way

Having been hit by a car last year while on my road bike, I can attest that
this principal is, indeed, true.

> It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
> same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

It might also be pointed out that there are good cyclists and bad cyclists,
just like there are good drivers and bad drivers. Inconsiderate, unsafe
cyclists are a scourge on the road, as are inconsiderate, unsafe car
drivers.

Alas for us good cyclists, we get all busted up or killed when we get hit by
a bad driver. The reverse is not usually the case.

ObTrav: Bikes are a great way to get around in a huge variety of situations.
What kind of law level restrictions might be placed on the use of bikes on
various worlds?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:16:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:16:30 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Mysterious force in space
References: <20020213035242.XFDN319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <014501c1b4dc$167bc720$6501a8c0@home.com>

> The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels

Pioneer's thruster plates have reached the 1000-diameter limit and it's
simply gravity pulling it back.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:27:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:27:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <20020213220323.DADR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <3C6AE85D.2C2B4318@sitraka.com>

Laning wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Just because Baedekker's describes Mora's major cities a certain
> way, do NOT expect each of its cities to have the same culture and
> attitudes, even within mostly homogenous cultural regions on Mora there
> will sometimes be very big differences.  Refereeing this sort of thing well
> will give players a realistic feel of travelling through a vast and varied
> universe.

Right. This would be akin to judging all of NY state based on 
New York city or all of CA based on [San Francisco|Los Angles
|Oakland|Berkley|Palo Alto]. Nothing could be further from the
truth.

Recruit 1: Y'a know Frank, you're really not an stuck-up asshole at all...
Recruit 2: What? Why would I be?
Recruit 1: Well, you being from "Regina" and all...
Recruit 2: Oh, no, that's only people from the highport. And those
           clothes they wear... woah. No explosive decompressions
           in over a century and they still act like they're on EVA.
           Wierdos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 22:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:43:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Forms of military address
References: <20020213110221.17772.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AEBF9.3B27D1F9@attbi.com>



Gerry Harris wrote:

> Just to add to the confusion, in the USN, First Lieutenant is a title
> rather than a rank, and, at least aboard the ship I served on, was held
> by a Lieutenant Commander.

Yep, it's a throw back to the age of sail when there where only two
real officers ranks, Captain and his Lieutenants. the first being in
charge of the Bosun and his mates, i.e. the crew that tended the sails
and manned the helm, rang out the watch etc.. etc...
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:05:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:05:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] New Force
References: <13d.94e7215.299b1bb4@aol.com> <014401c1b441$f24f6d10$9307b286@Shane> <3C6AA892.8080500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c1b4e2$fcaa1ca0$9307b286@Shane>

Bruce Johnson revealed:
> See, they're protecting you. You sould have gotten the fold-up and punt
> you out of bed bed, the high speed treadmill to walk your dog on and
> Talkie Toaster.

Yeah, good point.  Although I do have a soft spot for Talkie Toaster.

Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a good Trav
scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients artifacts?  I'm
wanting to give my players something to puzzle over, and maybe actually
throw one or two useful items in there, but mostly elicit frustrated cries
of "Does this thing actually have a use?!".  I'm sure there's a published
adventure out there somewhere which fits the bill.
 _____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- So you're a waffle man!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:04:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:04:49 EST
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
Message-ID: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>

When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer 
Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.

I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background 
info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of 
this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little 
outside my realm of knowledge. 

To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 13 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:51:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
References: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6AFC12.63230D0@premier.net>



SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:
> 
> When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer
> Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
> 
> I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background
> info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of
> this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little
> outside my realm of knowledge.

Spectral class refers to the spectrum of the system's star(s).  For
instance, Sol (our big heat tab in the sky here on Terra) has a spectral
class of G2. [GT:FI page 46, LBB6 pages 22-23]

Eccentricity describes how much a body's orbit deviates from a circle.
[GT:FI page 48, not found in LBB6]
> 
> To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you

That's your call.  I preferred using GT:FI for my (not-yet-posted)
Landgrab, but LBB6 is a perfectly valid choice.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:15:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B0196.BEA39AD2@mindspring.com>

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! The point of my original story was
that I probably wouldn't have gotten a ticket if I'd been a long haired pinko
type, instead of a fine upstanding member of the armed services. We don't have
that kind of problem here as we generally run over bicyclists and pedestrians.

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> I am *so* tired of San Francisco bicyclists who think they are above the
> law, exempt from following the rules of the road, and holier than thou
> because they don't drive cars.  I don't either, but I manage not to drive
> cars without making myself annoying or a menace to others.  And we won't
> even talk about Critical Mass, or the number of times I've been late to
> work because some goddamn bicyclist refused to get out of the way of a
> bus at Church and Duboce and the bus didn't get to my transfer point
> before my train left.
>
> Hell yes bicyclists should have to follow all the laws, and if they are
> driving in the streets that cars use, pass a driving test and get a
> license.  We need to stop treating bicyclists like innocent little kids
> who are always in the right because a bicycle is NOT a child's toy and
> people get killed on them and can also cause deaths on them.  The fact
> that bikes are good for the environment should not give bicyclists a
> holier-than-thou complex and does not give them the right to do whatever
> they want in the street.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:27:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202130832480.19422-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <20020213105332.A2991@4dv.net> <3C6ACD2F.EB7D0077@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B047E.ACC9ED25@mindspring.com>

ROFLOL keyboard kill!

John Groth wrote:


> I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
> M * V^2 = R, where
>
> M=Mass
> V=Velocity
> R=Right-of-way

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:27:46 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #155
Message-ID: <123.bbd18e0.299c5e82@aol.com>

>      How long did it take for electric lighting to replace gas lamps in 
>  Britain?  How many flats and studios in Britain still use meter-fed gas 
>  grates for heating?  All those gas works, street lines, and other bits of 
>  lo-tech gas infrastructure were already there, so why not continue to use 
>  them?

The village I grew up in sat atop a natural gas field. As late as the 1960s, 
I had a friend who lived in a farmhouse outside town that was heated by 
natural gas from a well in the backyard, and his was not the only one. They 
had all played out by the 1970s, but the house I grew up in had pipes in the 
walls for gaslights. Frank' Chadwick's house actually had a gaslight fixture 
in his kitchen -- it was live.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:34:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:34:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Question?
References: <178.394bc03.299c4b11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B061B.F54EF408@mindspring.com>

Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to stay
inside the lines.

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote:

> When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you prefer
> Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
>
> I dont play GURPS (CT kinda guy myself) but i picked it up for background
> info.  I want to be detailed but admit i am not all too sure what half of
> this stuff actually means. spectral this and eccentricity that is a little
> outside my realm of knowledge.
>
> To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:29  0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>

I know this is going to sound a little silly but...

I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:53:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:53:57 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <F263ecm9t0CI76rOJhK00018214@hotmail.com>

From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

     "ObTrav: Bikes are a great way to get around in a huge variety of 
situations.  What kind of law level restrictions might be placed on the use 
of bikes on various worlds?"


Mr. Dietrich,

     In one of the Drake/Stirling co-authored, military, sci-fi books (I 
forget which one) a society's slaves were allowed to own huge bicycles to 
commute with.  These machines required 4 or 6 people to pedal them, thus 
allowing groups of slaves to travel to work while at the same denying them 
any personal mobility.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:58:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:58:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] New Force
Message-ID: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>

From: "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au>

     "Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a 
good Trav scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients 
artifacts?"


Mr. Slamet,

     There's a DGP Four Knights adventure set on Antiquity.  While DGP's 
cinematic nugget format (blecch) might not be your cuppa, you could mine the 
material for a nice selection of odd Ancients artifacts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 00:56:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:56:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213071431.009f9cd0@mindspring.com>
 <3C6B80A1.16532.45861D@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330108b890b9f5372a@[198.123.22.181]>

At 9:17 AM +1300 2/14/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Bring over here. The buses are the holy ones, and anything that gets in their
>way is asking for it.

[OK, I typicaly ride my bike in the Palo Alto to Mountain View area, 
this is between San Fran and San Jose, but closer to San Jose]

There are problems with subgroups of all the types if vehicle drivers 
who ignore laws when then they think they can get away with it.  I've 
had problems with cars violating my right of way when I'm on a bike. 
Ironically, I've had people in cars yell at me for doing what I was 
legally supposed to (being in the left turn lane to make a left 
turn), mostly because I was in their way and that was all they cared 
about.

I do think that there is a point to be made about how the laws don't 
take bicycles in to account (at least in any realistic way).  I've 
never been to Critical Mass so I can't speak for how obnoxious they 
may or may not be, but I do think that increasing awareness of 
bicycles wouldn't hurt.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:07:28 +0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <F50XdIJ55EIZZ2yX3gv0001814c@hotmail.com>

From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>

     "I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a 
ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
plot uses for said monkey."


Mr. Whincup,

     Monkeys are nasty, filthy, noisy, dangerous animals, just like their 
human cousins.  Plot uses for them should be readily apparent, the chief 
being "How to we get rid of this *@$*&!@$ monkey!!??!!".
     I should think that their well known propensity for flinging feces 
would not make them welcome to any passengers, especially high passage 
types.  Thievery by the monkey could spark any number of plots.  Having 
people bitten or injury by said monkey is another very plausible plot 
driver.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:49:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:49:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com>



Andrew Whincup wrote:
> 
> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

A ship's monkey... Damn if that ain't a Traveller standard. Every game I
have
been in has had a Beecker in it.

The last one came with it's own cred card, Don't ask me why.

Well, they can get in to things, fling shit at passengers and crew
members they
don't like. Get lost, pick up strange things in bars. Pull the hard vacc
alarm 
because it like the flavor of kibble in it's carrier cases feeder.
etc... etc...

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 01:57:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:57:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020213.175801.-150485.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

I have a thought, I saw this on TV many years ago.

"Murder in the Rue Morgue (sp)."
Nice story for mercenary work.

Dock or land at some off-the-wall dirtball place. You want revenge
against some rotten NPC's who gave you a bum deal. Each night send in
your Ape to kill off a NPC, have it return each night. Let your PC's
attempt to solve the mystery as one by one NPC's disappear

Every day your monkey is safe and sound in its cage, no one will know..

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:29  0000 "Andrew Whincup"
<shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:
> <snip> 
> I was 
> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's 
> monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
> plot uses for said monkey.
> 
<snip>

You could also try a planet of the Apes style time twist, and your
monkey's now a god.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:08:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020213210821.00e4d688@buffnet.net>

Don't forget fleas and other alien versions of fleas...  ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:22:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Derogatory terms Was:  Miltary stories
Message-ID: <b8.22c9e3e6.299c7966@aol.com>

CHam writes:

>Well space navy sailors who work in a zero-g environment are going to be
>floaters...
>

Making the Pilots and Marines on the assault boats "sinkers?"

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:29:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:29:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F122NbtFqFBjz30ef8r000174e6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020213211719.01c5b008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:36 PM 2/13/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
>     "Here in our lovely New England, there are phone switches built in
>the 50's and 60's still in use.  The local telecos are scrambling to add 
>circuits above and beyond what their projections for population increase 
>called for."
>     "I've gotten busy trunk signals on calls inside the 495 belt more
>often than for interstate calls, due to overloaded local circuits."
>Mr. Urbin,
>     Superb example sir!  "Industrial inertia" at it's finest.  Because 
> we've sunk so much capital into a now obsolescent, but still servicable, 
> system we will still try to work with it rather than replace it.  The 
> local telecos will continue to repair, replace, and manufacture equipment 
> from the 50's or 60's and try to shoehorn 90's and 00's equipment into 
> the mix.
>There are tons and tons of "old" infrastructure is still around, so why 
>not try and continue to use it?
>     One of the many Traveller examples of this would be the backwater 
> world in the Chamax Double Adventure.  That planet is at a ~1940s level 
> of technology and doesn't see a lot of off-world trade (the PCs get stuck 
> there for months without any other starships making orbit), so most of 
> what the planet has they make for themselves.
>     The major hi-tech artifact on world, other than the PCs' ship, is a 
> automated fusion power plant tucked away along the shore of a sleepy 
> peninsular.  This plant is a "gift from the Emperor".  Apparently some 
> heavy engineering branch of the IISS or IN or some civilian contractors 
> arrived, installed it, and left.
>     This 57th century goodie happily purrs along and pumps lots of MWs 
> into a 1940's distribution net!  The main trunk line between plant and 
> popualtion centers may be a buried, 57th century, superconducting cable, 
> but the juice would still flow into factories, offices, and homes via 
> locally manufactured distribution net.  After all, the folks installing 
> the Emperor's gift wouldn't and couldn't have rewired the entire planet!
>     Pa Whipsnade had a summer job prior to visiting Korea during the 
> shooting season.  He worked in an electrical substation, fetching coffee 
> and what-not for the regular employees and watching the old-timers work 
> the substation's switches.  They did so wearing leather guantlets and 
> smocks while wielding long wooden poles.  The switches themselves were 
> housed in what he described as a concrete bunker within a normal looking 
> building.
>     I get a kick picturing the inhabitants of that low-tech world 
> switching and re-routing by hand the electrical power generated by fusing 
> hydrogen atoms.

Ahhhh yes...You can have great fun with power planets and electrical 
distribution.  I've got some insight into the process and how to muck with it.
My dad graduated from the Army Nuclear Power Program and was in power 
production for decades.  My brother works for Pure Greed & Explotation (PG&E).
Back when Freddy (the brother) was at the Hunter Point Power Planet, he had 
the modern version of Pa Whipsnade's long wooden pole.  It was a ten foot 
fiberglass pole.  They used to flip the switches out the yard.  That way if 
the switch arced, it only knock you on your ass, instead of frying you. 
Also useful when the junkies climbed the fence and tried to mug you for 
their next fix.

Take a Ship's Engineer, used to TL 13-15 power planets.  Drop him a 
'modern' (40's to 00's) power planet.  For even more fun, make it coal fired.
There is a reason for those brass tools...

Big changes in Tech Levels can play havoc.  The PC has ground car - 
2.  He's from a TL 10 planet though.  Sealed electric engine, GPS tied to 
the planet net displaying your route on the HUD, power everything.

Now give him the trusty 1970 Ford Econoline van I had as a teen.  Gas using 
V-8 with a carburetor, manual steering, manual brakes, flacky electrical 
system, and not one single microprocessor in the whole thing (my current 
vehicle, a 2002 has a couple of dozen microprocessors, as does any new car).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:48:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:51 EST
Subject: _[TML]_Derogatory_terms
Message-ID: <72.17a68a00.299c7f93@aol.com>

IIRC, Mercenary established "Pongo" as a derogatory term for ground troops.

Others that I recall are "Crusher" or "Provo" for MP

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 02:55:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:55:55 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Question?
Message-ID: <3C6B273B.6D8EBC54@mail.cswnet.com>

>When working up the write up for a Landgrab entry which book do you >prefer Book 6: Scouts or GURPS First In.
><snippaged>
>To that end i am looking for the better of the books to use. thank you

I have both. What I try to do is start off with First In and then try to
make it fit Book 6. Where they differ I go with Book 6. Basically, I use
First In to "fill in the pot holes" on my landgrab road.

Those are the two big basic books. Be advised that you will be using
more than just these two books to do a great land grab.

While I haven't seen it, some of the DGP stuff might be better. Maybe
when I make my millions I'll be able to find out ;-)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:04:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:04:45 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Monkeys
Message-ID: <8.214c8c8e.299c834d@aol.com>

> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque 
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land 
> leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk 
> and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any 
thoughts 
> on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if 
anyone 
> could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

Don't monkeys have a tendency to steal small, shiney things, like keys, 
memory chips, and other vital plot macguffins?
  
>  Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You 
want 
> a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

I went to the animal fair,
The birds and the beasts were there.
The big baboon, by the light of the moon,
Was combing his auburn hair.
The monkey, he got drunk,
And stepped on the elephant's trunk,
The elephant sneezed and fell to his knees . . .


LKW

and that was the end of the monk.

I loved that song when I was a kid. My mom got sick of singing it eventually 
. . . 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:31:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020213223243.80eca1133122456eac9c64f0f5ea93ab.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
>I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk
and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone
could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
>Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want
a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

All of a sudden, the theme to the Monkey Island series start sounding in the
background...

"How credits for banana futures...?"

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

My Sale List
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
My Want List:
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:34:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:34:54 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <20020213223607.11a2e556463c4e9e81679002181e2d7b.in@keywest.kennett.net>

First, many thanks (And belated too.) for all the people who gave me
responses to how to get onto UseNet.  It was much appreciated and I am now
reading UseNet.  (Hello to Matt Clonfero and Tom Schoene in case they are
still reading TML.).

Anyway, I was just wondering if somebody could direct me to a website with
details regarding the uniforms of the U.S. Military.  All the discussion of
the military has got me interested about little details now.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

My Sale List
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
My Want List:
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:56:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T4
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB47@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> To be fair, the Geonee are a DGP thing, and as such are/were a delicate 
topic, but the attitude expressed disturbed a few of us old grognards (I 
recall the grim look on several HIWG member's faces after that seminar) and

the reality became clearly manifest as the supplements appeared: this was
not 
the same universe, or if it was then all that had come before was
worthless.

 GC<

Isn't that the same as the  "un-canon'ing" that was talked about earlier? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:55:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:55:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series?
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB43@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>What makes you say that?  Buffy is The Best Show On TV Today Bar None.

>>>*ahem*  CSI?  *That* is the best show on television, and a boon to GMs 
>>>interested in how to stop their overly violent players from the usual
NPC 
>>>massacres.<

Nope. CSI is a very good show, but I can think of three or four episodes of
Buffy that no one would be ashamed of crying during. You can't say that
about CSI, though it is a good potboiler. 

>>>The best show on TV has got to be "Farscape" (OK so it
>>>isn't "on" TV right now).  Great Traveller gleanings
>>>for many types of campaigns.  Great writing and
>>>character development.

Definitely second best and the primary inspiration/reason for my non-canon
Traveller campaign. 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>> The Buffy game will use a modified 
>>>.version of the system in Witchcraft. <

Sign me up for the mailing list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 03:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:56:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TNE and T4 failed?
Message-ID: <200202132256_MC3-F1FA-DB46@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
 T4, on the other hand, failed in many ways. May Ken Whitman and Courtney 
Solomon burn for eternity.<

Who are these guys and what was there contribution to T4? 

> rip the bleeding heart out of Traveller canon and hold it up before
them 
> until it stopped beating. A few of them even noticed...

What was specifically said there?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:05:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:05:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb890e6a03160@[198.123.22.181]>

At 5:41 PM -0800 2/13/02, Andrew Whincup wrote:
>I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
>I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite 
>esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a 
>bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't 
>know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was 
>wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's 
>monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some 
>plot uses for said monkey.

They aren't much use.  However, if you are stuck in human space and 
can't find a Vargr replacement for your crew, you may have no choice.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:30:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
Message-ID: <167.8caa0f2.299c974a@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
> generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to stay
> inside the lines

I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it 
gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable text 
and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:26:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:26:42 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
Message-ID: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer to ground personnel as
> "Speed bumps".
> 

While i have not followed this thread i can state that in my days in the Army 
we were refered to as Road Toads


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:43:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:43:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Accessories request
Message-ID: <3C6B408A.1EA3DBFE@mail.cswnet.com>

Backpacks, Gravpacks, and utility vests are great,
but what I really want is:

a standard issue Imperial Storm Trooper utility belt
[volume, price, and carrying capacity]

and a pair of grav powered tennis shoes [preferably Reeboks]

Lets see if the gearheaders can solve that one. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha->

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Can't we skip this garbage and go straight to the tacos?"
--the collected wisdom of Zorack

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:40:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6B3FCF.2573E606@mindspring.com>

Perhaps it's really a Simp pilot ala Uplift War. Everythings fine until the monkey starts telling human jokes using a TL A voder.

Andrew Whincup wrote:

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.
>
> ---
> Shan Andy
>
> "Wagging this appendage is
> the only creative outlet I have"
>
> Salem
>
> Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
> Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
> Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 04:49:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:49:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214045124.FJVD319.dorsey@link>

>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:31:43 -0600
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Bicycles

>I have always subcribed to the following traffic principle:
>
>M * V^2 = R, where
>
>M=Mass
>V=Velocity
>R=Right-of-way

Good one.

<<<SNIP>>> 
>It would appear that bicyclists in semi-rural Texas have discovered the
>same principle I mentioned above.  Perhaps through attrition.... ;-)

Okay, that tears it.  I'm losing my sense of humor about this.  There've
been a disproportionate number of vehicular manslaughters in Texas
victimizing bicyclists.  Famous, respected, and well liked bicyclists have
been viciously swerved into with absolutely zero provocation by pick-up
truck drivers at high speeds, and died within seconds.  (Yes, it's always a
pick-up truck and/or drunk whose already lost their license in these
things.)  And the culprits have never been apprehended.  There are plenty
of witnesses to the fact that there was no provocation, but none of the
nearby Texans seem to have more than the vaguest description of the
murderers.  This sort of thing goes on everywhere once in awhile, but Texas
has more than its share.  Some people just don't like seeing bicycles on
"their" road and think it's okay to do this.  Same sort of thing happened
to me once (in Virginia), with a Cadillac driver, but I miraculously kept
from going down.  Was way too preoccupied to get his license plate, but I
can still see his face plainly nearly ten years later.  It's murder for
entertainment, and I think making casual jokes about it just contributes to
the atmosphere that makes these people think it's okay in the first place.

--Laning
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 05:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:15:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020213210821.00e4d688@buffnet.net>
References: <3C6B17B0.C44A2F4D@attbi.com> <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214001410.01c216d0@mail.comcast.net>

At 09:08 PM 2/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Don't forget fleas and other alien versions of fleas...  ;)

...and whatever you do, do NOT give the monkey a red shirt!  What sort of 
monkey is it?  Natural, enhanced, or what?  A chimp would have been better, 
but a monkey should be good for stealing code books and hiding them in the 
cargo hold, pushing the wrong button during space combat, jettisoning a 
cargo module - all sorts of things that you can "dare" the players to kill 
the monkey for...







From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 07:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:44:29 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEKEHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :
> tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> > According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer 
> > to ground personnel as "Speed bumps".
> 
> While i have not followed this thread i can state that 
> in my days in the Army  we were refered to as Road Toads

The tankers called infantry "crunchies" over here.

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 07:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:48:26 EST
Subject: Subject: Re [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <162.8d04589.299cc5ca@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/02 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, Shan Andy 
wonders at the uses for a monkey aboardship:

   Hmmm, is it a real Earth-type plain ol' monkey, or some sort of 
Alienworld's monkey analog? Or is it some sort of Genered monkey?
   If an actual monkey, I've always heard that (and I've no idea how true it 
is), being viscious and wild, you have to kick the absolute hell out of the 
thing so it knows you're the boss. Thats sure a pretty unsavory bit of color 
right there.
   As monkeys prettymuch void themselves wherever they want, it'd be a pretty 
fair bet that none of the players will think to have the characters stock up 
on monkey-sized pampers for those extra-long (or even very short) Jumps; let 
alone actually trying to waltz the chimp into one if they _were_ brought 
along :)
   The creature'll stink, make a hell of a mess, and, like any 2yr old, get 
into absolutely _everything_! And be sure to remember that these rotten 
things, unlike 2yr olds, can _climb_ really well, too! Imagine where the 
thing could go if it got into the ventilation system; if it gets into 
anything even _remotely_ unsafe?
   Heck, maybe it _kind_ of grasps the idea of the airlock, for example..Put 
stuff in, push big button, gone! How'd the crew like to find a bunch of minor 
(or even not so minor) stuff has gone missing; over time reviews of the 
anti-hijacking equipt showing (or even one of the crew sees it first hand) 
the monkey pushing the big, idiot-proof button (you _do_ want your airlock 
controls to be really easy to use, right?) that cycles your stuff out of the 
ship somewhere halfway through subsector 235.
   It could've been trained to steal people's cigarettes as a bar gag or 
something. All the smokers aboard curse each other (or the monkey, if at all 
perceptive). Have it go on for quite some time, until some sort of vital, 
tight-spot has to be gotten to for repairs, then viola; cigerette cash! Or 
have the monkey eat them, or even smoke them itself :)
   Drop your keys down the grating between decks.
   Open the fridge, drink all your favorite spirits, then do one or more of 
the previously-mentioned annoying things while literally drunk as a monkey.
   Imagine all the fun this could cause. Kill the monkey as it acts up? 
Puh-leeez!!! What sort of cold-blooded, monkey killers are aboard that 
freighter, anyhow? Tranq darts sound much better; won't penetrate any 
delicate ship systems, and still lots of opportunity for the squirming, 
dodging monkey to twist and such to the point where the characters are 
mistakenly shooting each other.
   Maybe it has the annoying habit of jumping on people's backs and hugging 
and kissing them at inopportune moments, cuz it just absowootwee wuvs dem 
sooooo much :)
   Have it be seen several times behind the door to the fresher licking the 
hinges; or in engineering licking the lubricant from a minor leak; only to 
get startled and run away when it sees you. 
   Have it sneaking into the fresher, then into the shower while a character 
is showering so it can drink the hot water from the tub. 
   Have it rub its butt across the carpet continually and aggressively.
   Have it howl very loudly at odd times during the night.

   There's opening a can of worms for ya!
  -Ken-
   
    
   
   
   



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 11:00:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:00:08 -0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1b547$10e47e40$006e893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Whincup" <shanhat@angelfire.com>

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
>
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk
and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any
thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also
wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.

And this will sound equally silly, but I have received (almost certainly
non-exclusive) permission from Ian Bell to develop and publish a
non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.
Unfortunately, lack of time prevents me from doing much of anything with
this.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 11:39:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:39:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Language:  VARGR
In-Reply-To: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202140205.g1E25us03512@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <q88n6uscpsnhp919r5pvbm1nnt2621dfij@4ax.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:05:56 -0800 (PST), Ethan Henry
<ethan.henry@sitraka.com> wrote:

>Paul Walker wrote:
 
>> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
>> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
>> a few references to words and their translations.  If
>> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
>> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
>> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
>> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
>> as well.  

>At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
>story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?

There is indeed, part of the 'Gvurrdon's Story' adventure included as a
part of that module.  Complete with a significant, if restricted,
vocabulary.

>That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.

The problem with it is, however, that it feels somewhat fake; it's almost
exactly a word-by-word encoding for English.

>Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
>the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).

Either Gvegh or an earlier related language - for some reason 'Arrghoun'
sticks in my head.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 12:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:30:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEKEHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <63.687406f.299c9682@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C64B1.31843.83EF08@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 20:44, Frank Pitt wrote:

> SinEater40K@aol.com wrote :
> > tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
> > > According to GT: Starmercs, vehicle crews may refer 
> > > to ground personnel as "Speed bumps".
> > 
> > While i have not followed this thread i can state that 
> > in my days in the Army  we were refered to as Road Toads
> 
> The tankers called infantry "crunchies" over here.

I never heard that one. We used to call them 'wankie tankie turret-
heads' said right it fits into all sorts of songs. :)
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 13:19:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:19:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Language: VARGR
Message-ID: <F203LSAQV6uPDVniSnR000161e6@hotmail.com>



Here is a URL VUAKEDH: AN ALTERNATE VARGR LANGUAGE
By Mike Metlay, Seth Blumberg, and Joe Heck
23 Nov 1993


http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/language/vuakedh.htm


This is what I've been using as a basis for Woof, of Pack Lika.

Greg


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Language:  VARGR
>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:39:35 -0500
>
>On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:05:56 -0800 (PST), Ethan Henry
><ethan.henry@sitraka.com> wrote:
>
> >Paul Walker wrote:
>
> >> Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
> >> done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
> >> a few references to words and their translations.  If
> >> anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
> >> structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
> >> discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
> >> references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
> >> as well.
>
> >At the risk of re-stating the obvious, isn't there an entire
> >story in both Engligh & Vargr in the original CT Vargr module?
>
>There is indeed, part of the 'Gvurrdon's Story' adventure included as a
>part of that module.  Complete with a significant, if restricted,
>vocabulary.
>
> >That should start you off with some basic structure of the language.
>
>The problem with it is, however, that it feels somewhat fake; it's almost
>exactly a word-by-word encoding for English.
>
> >Of course, "Vargr" is no more a language than "Human". I think
> >the text was specifically Gvegh (sp?).
>
>Either Gvegh or an earlier related language - for some reason 'Arrghoun'
>sticks in my head.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com




Andrew MacLintock
Trader Extrordinaire
Founding Partner, White Raven, Inc




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:21:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:21:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "...he had the modern version of Pa Whipsnade's long wooden pole."


Mr. Urbin,

     Pa didn't stay on the job long enough to be allowed to handle the long 
wooden pole, guild rules I guess.  He spent a good portion of his time 
polishing said poles and running buckets of beer over from the nearby ale 
house for lunch.
     My hasn't that work day changed...

     "Take a Ship's Engineer, used to TL 13-15 power planets.  Drop him a 
'modern' (40's to 00's) power planet.  For even more fun, make it
coal fired.  There is a reason for those brass tools..."

     I loved the "TL mind f*ck" as a GM.  There are lots of ways to do most 
things.  Our choices about how to do them had more to do with happenstance 
than efficiency.

     "The PC has ground car - 2.  He's from a TL 10 planet though.  Sealed 
electric engine, GPS tied to the planet net displaying your route on the 
HUD, power everything.
     Now give him the trusty 1970 Ford Econoline van I had as a teen.
Gas using V-8 with a carburetor, manual steering, manual brakes, flacky
electrical system, and not one single microprocessor in the whole thing (my 
current vehicle, a 2002 has a couple of dozen microprocessors, as does any 
new car)."

     Or make it a lineal descendent of the Stanley Steamer.  Steamers were 
better cars than the early gas buggies, it was just easier to mass produce 
the gas buggies.  Quantity beats quality ever time, just ask Tiger tank 
crewmen facing Shermans or the executives at Apple Computer.
     I had a player who was a recreational sailor and his PC had that skill 
as a bit of backstory.  His group of PCs visited a lower-tech world and 
arranged passage on the sail driven merchant craft used there.  He fully 
expected to be able to step into the breach if the GM (me) decided to get 
funky with the vessel's NPC crew.  Too bad the ship had ROTARY sails...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:30:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:30:08 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
Message-ID: <F107ryWtIIZS2TRqf6900018ec5@hotmail.com>

From: jo_grant@us.ibm.com

     "MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION..."


     Bravo!  Author!  Author!

     I don't subscribe to the Digest and, alas, missed out on the orignal 
ChiCom forklift post.  However, thanks to my experience with business 
overseas, I feel sure that this is a dead-on parody of that bit of spam.
     Is there any way the Gravlift post could be sent to the forklift 
spammers?  Returning the "favor" would be good joss.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 15:37:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:37:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
Message-ID: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>

MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION
Registered in Regina/Regina.
 
WELCOME! 

Mr. Lia Qi. 
President of the Corporation 

BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF OUR CORPORATION 

       MoonShip International Trade Corporation is registered in the 
System of Chronor, Chronor Subsector. Amount total shares stocks 
registered is MCr 3 million. We have a Branch in Regina/Regina. Mr. Walret 
Harnom Batrhett is the General Manager of the Branch. He is also Vice 
President of the MoonShip International Trade Corporation. 

      We have many years experiences in import and export business 
sectorwide. We have got solid business network including many Zhonadi 
manufacturers Zhodani Import and Export Companies, and many import & 
export companies from Imperium, Vargr Reaches, Darians, Sword Worlds, and 
Non Aligned States.

      MoonShip International Trade Corporation is the best channel for you 
to get into the Zhodani Market. That is to say you can get the products 
from the Zhodani Consulate with more competitive price with good quality 
and delivered on time. 


BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF Mr. Lia Qi 
      Mr. Lia Qi was born on 1076-119 in Jablnishoz which is a middle 
industrial world which is very famous for Ceramic Industry. He loves the 
System in which he was born and grown up and he loves his people, the 
Zhodani. He loves art, music, paintings and he had worked in Jablnishoz 
Art & Craft Factory as artist for about 4 years. He has worked in Light 
Industrial Bureau for about 6 years in Foreign Economic & Technology 
Development Office. He loves pets. He has very nice Sar-Phei and Bull 
Harrier Moonship Sar-Phei Aviary. And very nice Vilis Raptors.

      Mr. Lia Qi has been a Chief Representative of RUMI (Jewell) 
International and Batrhett Business Group (Regina) in the Zhodani 
Consulate for 4 years and up to earlier period, he was a Chief 
Representative of Universal Consignment Co., Ltd (Darrian) in the 
Consulate. He has been in the Sword Worlds. for about 2 years. He has been 
doing import and export business for about 17 years. 

      Now Mr. Lia Qi has registered his own MoonShip International Trade 
Corporation in the System of Chronor, Chronor Subsector and cooperates 
with his business partner Mr. Walret Harnom Batrhett to set up a Branch 
Co. in 34 Tank Ave. Regina/Regina. 

President Lia Qi would like to cooperate with all the businessmen from all 
over the galaxy.


BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF Mr. Walret H. Batrhett 


 Walret H. Batrhett was born in Regina/Regina on 1043-167. He is a life 
long resident of the Subsector with the exception of his time spent in the 
Imperial Navy and active duty with the Navy Reserve. 

Mr. Batrhett has a heavy background in Engineering, Science, and 
Marketing. Mr. Batrhett has several patents in the Alternate Energy field 
and has a keen interest in the energy field. Mr. Batrhett maintains a web 
site where he donates free solar plans and consulting to all who need 
assistance. He taught solar energy classes and engineering at several 
schools and colleges. He has an interstellar reputation in the solar 
energy field. Before his retirement he was the President of Pixie Solar 
Corporation and Chairmen of the board of Kinorb corporation. Mr. Batrhett 
now resides in Regina/Regina and has a wife and five grown children. 




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:50:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:50:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <F209bOzrPC4Q20fxKqY00014c8d@hotmail.com>

Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:
>1st rule of safe road biking: Know and obey *all* traffic
>laws. 2nd rule of safe road biking: Expect no auto driver
>to know or obey *any* traffic laws.

1) They cannot see you.
2) They are actively trying to kill you.

One of my brothers was taught these truths while getting
ready for his motorcycle license...his instructor called
them the two principles of Defenseless Driving.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:58:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:58:51 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <2b.228014af.299d46cb@aol.com>

Has anyone considered "building" one of these?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/12/qassam.facts/index.html

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:08:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #157
In-Reply-To: <167.8caa0f2.299c974a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214090707.009ec470@mindspring.com>

At 11:30 PM 2/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/13/2002 8:15:26 PM Central Standard Time,
>tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
> > Try getting heaven and Earth off the web. Its a way cool program that
> > generates the system for you. All you have to do is color it in. Try to 
> stay
> > inside the lines
>
>I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it
>gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable text
>and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)

I suggest getting Stephan Gillet's wonderful _World Building_.  This book 
gives the basics of planetology.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 16:59:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:59:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20020213223607.11a2e556463c4e9e81679002181e2d7b.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 2/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Anyway, I was just wondering if somebody could direct me to a website with
>details regarding the uniforms of the U.S. Military.  All the discussion of
>the military has got me interested about little details now.

http://mav.net/wguynes/military/

As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are 
dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic 
Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts, 
to the Navy's dress whites.

http://www.marlowwhite.com/

Seems to be a good source for dress uniforms

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/bdu.htm

For the ever-loving BDU


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:05:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:05:26 +0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
Message-ID: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>

In Digest 152, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?
>_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
>and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
>thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they discuss
>the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
>
>CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.
>

Or Channel 5, Saturday nights 2100, repeated Monday nights 2300 (UK 
"Terrestrial")*
and
UK-Living, Sunday nights 2100 (UK Digital).

*Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal, 
non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!

And as for 'Firefly', what happens if you change it to a whopping big 
starship and put Hercules in charge?  Oh, that was 'Andromeda', wasn't it?

Jeff.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee
He did softly and silently vanish away,
For the censors had decided the material was unsuitable for broadcasting 
before the watershed...

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:20:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:20:23 EST
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <e6.23211f29.299d4bd7@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time, shanhat@angelfire.com 
writes:


> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque 
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land 
> leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk 
> and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any 
> thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering 
> if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want 
> a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.
> 
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 

Have a look here for lots of information on why monkeys don't make good 
pets...

http://www.oregonprimaterescue.com/pets.html

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:24:37 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Two current events have sparked a creaky neuron or two in the 
Whipsnadian wetware and swung my short attention span towards the many 
sports and games that may be showcased in all our Traveller universes.
     The first event was the "fixing" of the figure skating competition at 
the Salt Lake "The Best Games That Money Can Bribe" Olympics.  The fact that 
such a prestigious event can be so baldly fixed(1) in such a chicanerous 
manner while the world watches makes my larcenous heart go pitter-pat.  The 
fact that the Olympics are bullsh*t and always have been bullsh*t, and the 
fact that figure skating is in no way, shape, or form a sport(2), do not 
detract from my evil glee.
     The second event actually warms the cockles of the withered Whipsnade 
pumper.  Major League Baseball is beginning spring training!  Pitchers and 
catchers report this weekend!  Woo-hoo!
     Ahhhh... sunshine and green grass, draft beer in the bleachers, Tinker 
to Evers to Chance, El Guapo, fungoes, cheese in the kitchen and a yakker 
for a kudo, the Curse of the Bambino, rally caps, chin music, "he hit the 
ball so far there should have been a stewardess on it", the seventh inning 
stretch, Morgana - the Kissing Bandit, the Whipsnadian heart can and does 
wax rhapsodic!
     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular 
Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this 
thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  The French.  What else do I need to say?

(2)  Figure Skating, because the "scoring" is entirely subjective, is NOT a 
sport.  Skaters do not race one anther or a clock.  Skaters do not score 
goals or make points via the manipulation of inaminate objects.  The actions 
of skaters are not physically measured against known standards such as 
heights or distances.  Figure skating is not a sport.  Actually, it's better 
than that.
     Figure skating is an art form.  No one goes to the ballet and then 
holds up scoring cards after the performance.  No one rates operatic divas 
or tenors.  Painters are not judged against one another.  Rather, the work 
of all these artists is judged in and of itself.  Hopefully, it is judged on 
it's own merits and not against some nebulous standard.  As an art form, 
figure skating shouldn't be held to the lesser standards of judgement that 
sports are.  The same argument can be for free-form gymnastics.
     In sports, a homerun hit in 1972 is the same as a homerun hit in 1980.  
But in gymnastics, the "10" awarded Olga Korbut in '72 is not the same as 
the "10" awarded Nadia Comaneci(sp) in '80.  As art forms, gymnastics and 
figure skating are not held to the continuity of performance that sports 
necessarily are.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:42:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8913716.25930%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 8:59 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are
> dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic
> Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts,
> to the Navy's dress whites.

Sort of back on topic.  I found this while searching for uniform pics.
Since a lot of characters see to like to wear their uniforms after getting
out.  Here's the US policy. I think I'll adopt this as the Imperium's policy
too.

Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.

Tod

Military Uniforms 

Wearing of military uniform by military retirees.
Often military retirees inquire as to when is it appropriate to wear their
military uniform. Wearing of the uniform by retirees is authorized by Title
10, U.S. Code Section 772 and governed by a DoD directive and military
service regulations.

Generally, military retirees may wear their military uniform at official
functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste dictates. Wearing
the uniform is appropriate for memorial services, weddings, funerals, balls,
patriotic or military parades, ceremonies in which any active or reserve
United States military unit is participating and functions of military
associations. 

Retirees may wear either the uniform prescribed at the time of their
retirement or of those on active duty, but the two may not be intermixed.
Restrictions on retirees wearing the uniform vary with each service. Please
refer to the service regulation for guidance. In general, retirees are
prohibited from wearing their military uniform in connections with personal
enterprises, business activities, or while attending or participating in, a
demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal
or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues. In
addition, retirees residing in or visiting a foreign country may not wear
their military uniform except when attending, by formal invitation,
ceremonies or social functions at which wearing of the uniform is required
by the terms of the invitation, or by the regulations or customs of the
country.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:40:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:40:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8913676.25924%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 8:59 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> As for the details of the uniform..  well, that's a huge topic.  There are
> dozens of different uniforms worn for different purposes, from the basic
> Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), the camouflage suit worn by most of us grunts,
> to the Navy's dress whites.

It goes beyond that.  There are even more formal uniforms that are only
rarely used. Mess dress and such.  Something you're only likely to see at an
embassy ball or other very formal occasion.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:27:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Playtesters wanted
Message-ID: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
        I'm looking for 2-3 playtesters for an on-line TCS-like Traveller 
ship-combat game.  This initial alpha test is just to ensure that it is 
stable enough for a wider run beta test. It should take no more than 2-3 
hours spread over 4-5 days. Drop me a line directly by e-mail 
(jo_grant@us.ibm.com) if you are interested.
                Cheers,
                        Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:36:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:36:39 PST
Subject: [TML] (fwd) Properties of diamond
In-Reply-To: <ofrm6u4scu708rk4jf4kdg8nqbnh2tl9kr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20214.093639.4E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

http://www.kobelco.co.jp/showroom/np0802e/np08022e.htm

I mention this because the high temp characteristics and the UV
wavelength properties would seem to make diamond based laser diodes a
candidate for some sorts of laser weapons. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 17:56:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:56:32 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F143lEQQFP9uINO2xZi0000ab17@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "Has anyone considered "building" one of these?"


Sir,

     Pretty primitive considering.  I'm surprised the PLA and all the other 
wackos in the area haven't been able to come up any better homebrew weapons. 
  They seem to be fixated on whatever old Soviet Bloc weapons they can get 
their hands on, perhaps because they're better smugglers than tinkerers?
     The Soviets fielded a nice version of this called the katyusha (or 
katuysha, I've seen it spelled both ways) during WW2.  It was a little over 
1m long, either 120mm or 130mm, and had a range of ~5km.  They were easy 
enough for even Soviet industry to make in mass quantities and simple enough 
for even Soviet quality control methods to ensure that they'd work.  The 
rockets were launched in groups of 48(?) from rails on the back of heavy 
Ford, Lend Lease truck.
     The Nazis called them "Stalin's Organ" because of the noise they made.  
A few trucks could lay down quite a nice barrage of HE on any chosen 
position.  IIRC, reloading time was pretty quick too,  fast enough for a 
battalion of "Organs" to get off another volley before Nazi counter-battery 
fire made their position too hot.
     The Nazis hated the damn things (fine by me) and developed their own 
Nebelwerfer(sp) system in response.
     Currently, the fruitcakes along Isreal's northern border occasionally 
lob a modern day katyusha over the border.  They get their rockets from 
Syria mostly and "unofficially" of course.
     Sooner or later these boobs will figure out the correct employment 
doctrine for these rockets and flatten a settlement or two.  Rather than 
send them off in dribs and drabs, wait until you've got 40 or 50 of the 
wretched things and then have a launching party.  They don't even need to 
work that out for themselves, all they need to do is be able to read 
history.
     Guess we're lucky they're mostly illiterate, huh?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:16:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6BFEFC.CDA2B27C@sitraka.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
>      In sports, a homerun hit in 1972 is the same as a homerun hit in 1980.
> But in gymnastics, the "10" awarded Olga Korbut in '72 is not the same as
> the "10" awarded Nadia Comaneci(sp) in '80.  As art forms, gymnastics and
> figure skating are not held to the continuity of performance that sports
> necessarily are.

Yes, the topic of much discussion up here as of late...

I decided that judged sports should only be allowed into the olympics
iff the judges can and are selected from the audience at random.
These "professional" judges are only slightly better than "professional"
mobsters.

Of course, there was another view in the San Jose paper... there are 
only two winter Olympic sports with direct, opposed compeition. The
rest of the sports are just watching really buff people do the same
thing over and over and over.

The solution to the boredom? Make every sport directly competitive.
Head to head Super-G. Team Snowboarding. With a big metal ball.
And motorcycles...

Anyone gone to see ther remake of Rollerball yet?

<evil grin>

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:19:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:19:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214101742.009feb40@mindspring.com>

At 05:24 PM 2/14/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular 
> Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this 
> thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!

Well, rollerball is still the most popular sport in Lunion Subsector; 
eclipsing the Grav Ball Professional Circuit by a wide margin.  The 
mag-sail racing tour is also widely watched.

 >(2) Figure Skating, because the "scoring" is entirely subjective, is NOT 
a sport. Skaters do not race one anther or a clock. Skaters do not >score 
goals or make points via the manipulation of inaminate objects. The actions 
of skaters are not physically measured against known >standards such as 
heights or distances. Figure skating is not a sport. Actually, it's better 
than that

Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both the 
types and execution of certain moves.  It doesn't matter if you are the 
most artistic skater in the world; because if you fall, or turn a triple 
into a double, or step out of a landing, you will lose points.  This is why 
the bar keeps being raised.  A few years ago, the quad was the undreamable 
dream, now it almost required to medal.  And even a few of the women are 
beginning to land them in practise!

(Go Giants!)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:16:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:16:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <B8913716.25930%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214084801.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214101218.009ec3b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:42 AM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.

In my view, the Imperium is pretty relaxed about retired military personel 
using their ranks or wearing uniforms at social functions.  Retired 
officers probably use their ranks as titles for the remainder of their 
lives.  This would be best expressed in GURPS terms as buying several 
points of courtesy rank.

>In general, retirees are
>prohibited from wearing their military uniform in connections with personal
>enterprises, business activities, or while attending or participating in, a
>demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal
>or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues.

This was added after Vietnam Veterans against the War got moving.  The 
sight of veterans wearing their uniforms marching against US policy gave 
the brass the screaming willies.  Suddenly it wasn't just draft dodgers and 
commie sympathizers - it was the people who had gone and fought.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 18:34:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:34:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F106EZ5ScEbWIyTWcPQ00018d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/14/02 9:24 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> The first event was the "fixing" of the figure skating competition at
> the Salt Lake "The Best Games That Money Can Bribe" Olympics.  The fact that
> such a prestigious event can be so baldly fixed(1) in such a chicanerous
> manner while the world watches makes my larcenous heart go pitter-pat.  The
> fact that the Olympics are bullsh*t and always have been bullsh*t, and the
> fact that figure skating is in no way, shape, or form a sport(2), do not
> detract from my evil glee.

Don't get me started.

Oh, what the hell.

My wife is a federal agent currently serving on security detail at the
Olympics (Curling venue in Ogden).  Aside from the fact that it is bitter
cold, and they are working 12 hour shifts, she has to deal with the Salt
Lake Olympic Committee (also know as the SLOC nazis.

They stand post out in the cold, sometimes in a phone booth sized box
thoughtfully provided by SLOC.  Sometimes with a propane heater even.  They
provide there own meals, but they cannot bring any food item or beverage
onto the premises that is not from an official sponsor (Coke OK, Pepsi bad).
They are not allowed to enter a venue either on a break, or off duty unless
they purchase a ticket.  Not even to get warm.  They have too huff it to
their designated break area.  By the time they get all the layers of
clothing off to use the bathroom, then get them on again, the break is over.
SLOC does thoughtfully provide hot chocolate and you might get a cup if it
doesn't run out.

Any of the most minor infractions result in a formal letter of complaint to
the officer's agency.  Several were issued to security stationed inside one
of the venues because they were watching the events while on their break.
They were told that they had to leave the building during break time.

And SLOC expects them to take a bullet for them if things go to hell. I
don't even know if SLOC is even supporting the cost of having these agents
there.  For all I know, they're getting it all for free.  Nice to know
you're appreciated.

Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:01:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:01:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0999.1E3E939@sitraka.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

Well, I'm normally a pretty cynical person, but this 
pretty much confirms my suspicion that the IOC is, in fact,
the embodiment of evil on the Earth. It's one more coffin
in the nail for the concept that man in inheritently good.

*sigh*

ObTrav: Ugh. Gettin' desperate here.... I wonder how many 
full-time tramp freighter crews are forced to the stars because
they belong to a groups that's been persecuted nearly to death
on their homeworld. Now, I don't want to draw comparisons with
Europe's Jewish population in the last few centuries too much,
but the comparison is probably quite apt. 

Of course, to really turn up the heat, one might wonder if the 
Imperium has ever, uh, "appropriated" a world to settle a
displaced people upon. It would, no doubt, make the current
situation Over There looks fairly tame in comparison...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:07:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:07:59 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F101WOxbCJnEMzAUor0000192b1@hotmail.com>

From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>

     "Of course, there was another view in the San Jose paper... there are 
only two winter Olympic sports with direct, opposed compeition. The
rest of the sports are just watching really buff people do the same
thing over and over and over."


Mr. Henry,

     I think competing against a clock should be allowed too.  Look at the 
cross-country races, both with and without the target shooting bit, or the 
downhill stuff.  It's the stuff where judges weigh in that is the problem.
     Look at the silly snowboarding events.  Snowboarding is a lot of fun, 
but having points deducted because your knees weren't together is crapola.  
Do you lose more points for the distance they're spread?  How long you keep 
them apart?  What if you're bowlegged?  The questions can go on and on.
     Simply timing how fast the snowboarder makes it down the mountain on 
her board should suffice.  Adding or deducting points for certain tricks or 
style is bullsh*t.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:10:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Andrew Whincup wrote:
> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM: "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a silly idea.

Quoth the Evil Overlord Rules:

* When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, 
ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying 
ropes and filching keys happens to follow him around.

Why a ship's monkey can be more fun than a barrel of Denebeian tree-oxen!


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:14:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <2b.228014af.299d46cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0CA1.8060503@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> Has anyone considered "building" one of these?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/12/qassam.facts/index.html
> 
> Charles
> 
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 
> 

When that came on CNN my wife and I turned to each other and said, 
simultaneously "I don't remember a Hamas Junkyard Wars team..."

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:15:14 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F260m0LJX9fWYAuseRB00019208@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "Don't get me started."

     "Oh, what the hell."

     "My wife is a federal agent currently serving on security detail at the 
Olympics (Curling venue in Ogden).  Aside from the fact that it is bitter 
cold, and they are working 12 hour shifts, she has to deal with the Salt 
Lake Olympic Committee (also know as the SLOC nazis)."


Mr. Glenn,

     You expected better behavior from the SLOC?  Remember, these folks were 
able to ingratiate themselves with the collection of crypto-fascists and 
third world mobsters that comprise the IOC well enough to be awarded the 
Games.  How the hell else would you expect them to act!
     Add the culture of self-righteous prudery exhibited by most residents 
of Utah and you get a lovely mixture.
     If that French count who resurrected the Games early last century saw 
them now, he'd puke.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:27:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:27:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
References: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <028f01c1b58d$9df5ea80$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they started
firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the cast.

I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
their adventures in space'

damn shame

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: [TML] New TV Series


> In Digest 152, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Subject: RE: [TML] New TV Series?
> >_CSI: Crime Scene Investigation_ is about the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab,
> >and follows them as they apply forensics to solve crimes.  The real nice
> >thing is that they *show* you what they are talking about when they
discuss
> >the effects of a bullet, or the dynamics of an accident.
> >
> >CBS, Thursday nights at 2100.
> >
>
> Or Channel 5, Saturday nights 2100, repeated Monday nights 2300 (UK
> "Terrestrial")*
> and
> UK-Living, Sunday nights 2100 (UK Digital).
>
> *Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal,
> non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!
>
> And as for 'Firefly', what happens if you change it to a whopping big
> starship and put Hercules in charge?  Oh, that was 'Andromeda', wasn't it?
>
> Jeff.
>
> In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
> In the midst of his laughter and glee
> He did softly and silently vanish away,
> For the censors had decided the material was unsuitable for broadcasting
> before the watershed...
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:28:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F101WOxbCJnEMzAUor0000192b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C0FD3.D24269B0@sitraka.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>      Simply timing how fast the snowboarder makes it down the mountain on
> her board should suffice.  Adding or deducting points for certain tricks or
> style is bullsh*t.

Never snowboarded, have you? :)

Seriously, getting downhill is not that big a deal. If you want
to watch that, watch the snowboard Super-G or whatever the slalom
is called. Even an out-of-shape keyboard jock like myself can
make it downhill (mostly).

The genesis of snawboarding is skateboarding and it's all about the
culture, man. Grabbing huge air is what it's all about. It's a 
subcultural thing. You could do a halfpipe on skis (I suppose)
but it's just not done. But snowboarders are "bad". Dude.

Anyway, like I said, to me the point is that all judged events
should be judgable by anyone or not at all. Or opposed. Combat
snowboarding. With flails. Or whips. Over hot lava.

ObTrav: 3I athletes must all flock to certain worlds with the right
combination of high gravity and thin, untainted atmospheres so that
when they compete back on Terra-like worlds they're absolute freackin' 
super[men|women].

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:48:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:48:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <3C6C0999.1E3E939@sitraka.com>
References: <B891434B.25967%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214114427.009eeb00@mindspring.com>

At 02:01 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.
>
>Well, I'm normally a pretty cynical person, but this
>pretty much confirms my suspicion that the IOC is, in fact,
>the embodiment of evil on the Earth. It's one more coffin
>in the nail for the concept that man in inheritently good.

Um, that's the SLOC, not the IOC.  I know people who did similar jobs in 
Atlanta, and they had nothing but good things to say about the organizing 
committee.

ObTrav:  Any sort of festival or event that moves from world to world is 
ripe for this sort of thing.. or any such event that merely attracts 
competitors and their fans from many worlds to one place.  IMTU, the 
Strouden Cup is such a thing, bring the best rollerball players together 
once every three years to determine which world fields the best 
team.  There is much controversy surrounding the 1121 games on Lunion, 
since a team from Gram is already being selected.  Not everyone has 
forgotten the war.  Should be fun!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 19:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:46:48 -0600
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
 <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>

I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
week's worth of hell

TV

__________________________________________________________________
          What is our aim? Victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of
all terror;  
Victory how ever long and hard the road may be.   
                                                           Sir Winston Churchill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 20:53:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:53:15 +1100
Subject: [TML] Sell Zhodani Gravlifts
In-Reply-To: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>
References: <OF10822FD6.527F27FB-ON85256B60.004DDEF6@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020215075315.A15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> MOONSHIP INTERNATIONAL TRADE CORPORATION
> Registered in Regina/Regina.
>  
> WELCOME! 
[...etc...]

:)

This mail was within a reflex-twitch of being dumped into the junk
folder to moulder in the forgotten heaps of pyramid scams and who
knows what else.  I was even momentarily annoyed that it got past my
junk-mail filter.  Excellent work!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:06:10
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <F252cUtI9dm5UxP9Fek00005e55@hotmail.com>

When I retired from the Reserves, I got a letter that pretty much said the 
same things. I was authorized to use my rank as a title and to wear the 
uniform on very specific occasions. I thought it was interesting that I 
could choose to wear either the current uniform or the uniform in effect 
when I retired. I have yet to find an occasion when I would want to wear a 
uniform even if I could put one together; maybe when I get older and march 
in a Veterans Day parade.

There are advantages to being retired that could be of benefit to a 
Traveller character if they carried over into the Imperium. A retiree is 
still considered a member of the military. I have an ID card and get a 
military vehicle pass for my car, which helps with the recently increased 
security. (It sometimes startles my passengers when Im saluted entering a 
base.)  I am also eligible for club membership, which has definite social 
advantages for an aerospace contractor or some other professions. Retirees 
can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; that 
could translate into free military passage in Traveller.

John L.


>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Sort of back on topic.  I found this while searching for uniform pics.
>Since a lot of characters see to like to wear their uniforms after getting
>out.  Here's the US policy. I think I'll adopt this as the Imperium's 
>policy
>too.
>
>Doug "Author of Ground Forces" Berry, what's your take.
>
>Tod
>
>Military Uniforms
>
>Wearing of military uniform by military retirees.
>....

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 20:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:58:33 +1100
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>
References: <F1191Vk4k7HlZF6T3rl00009c76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020215075833.B15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      I loved the "TL mind f*ck" as a GM.  There are lots of ways to
> do most things.  Our choices about how to do them had more to do
> with happenstance than efficiency.

That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than
re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".  The different
availability of various things between systems helps drive home the
point that the Traveller universe is bigger than worlds, and the
nearest 'familiar' territory might be months away.  (Or more, if
you're trying to fit a TL 8 maneuver drive into your otherwise TL 11
starship)


> He fully expected to be able to step into the breach if the GM (me)
> decided to get funky with the vessel's NPC crew.  Too bad the ship
> had ROTARY sails...

:)  I like it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:02:03 +1100
Subject: [TML] Playtesters wanted
In-Reply-To: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>
References: <OF11741AE0.E53A04F0-ON85256B60.005F5CF1@lotus.com>
Message-ID: <20020215080203.C15627@freeman.little-possums.net>

jo_grant@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Drop me a line directly by e-mail (jo_grant@us.ibm.com) if you are
> interested.

Hell, no!  You're that spammer who's collecting email addresses with
that Zhodani Grav Lift scam!  If you want my address you'll have to
pluck it out of my mind yourself.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:05:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <20020215075833.B15627@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013720711.9084.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than
> re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".

Sure, the existing TL rules are definately more fun from a role-playing
perspective.  However, if you're going to apply rationality to your universe
(admittedly, rather optional for a RPG), the default TL rules don't make any
sense, at least not for a setting which has had a stable government and trade
for the last thousand years.

T4 was a crappy product, but the standard randomized TL, population, etc, make
a lot more sense for a setting in which interstellar society has basically
broken down.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:19:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
References: <F252cUtI9dm5UxP9Fek00005e55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C29E1.8766584C@sitraka.com>

John Lambert wrote:
> Retirees
> can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; that
> could translate into free military passage in Traveller.

Oooooohhh. That's a hot one.

The PCs try to deadhead to some uninteresting major port but get
redirected moments before jump to a war zone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:49:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:49:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
Message-ID: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>


There's a solution to the entire IOC mess.

Go with the free market, and start up a competing product!

This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics
were just one of MANY series of games.
Why not revive another - and run it in the off years.

Go to former olympic venues - or those that didn't get the prize - and
offer to hold the even there - the community thus getting two uses out of
the expensive facilities.

Drop the entire "Professional/Amateur" distinctions, already dying, which
were basically set up to make the olympics a upper class only party back in
the 19th century - tell people "We want to see your BEST athletes - and we
don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
whatever."

Choose an operating board that is composed of respected athletes and sports
organizers worldwide - not the leavings of the last gasp of european
nobility and national sport organization political hacks - and set a
reputation for honesty!

Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
fairly across the board.

Remove the 'artistic interpretation' sports - An athlete should compete
directly either against other athletes, the clock, or a measurable scoring
system - not before panels of judges who grade each subjectively.


In short, make the motto not "Faster, Higher, Stronger" but
"Competitiveness, Accountability, Honesty"

OBTrav - Would 57th century athletes be sponsored by homeworlds, sectors,
the Nobility - or by megacorps? - the expense of holding interstellar
athletic competitions must be enormous, especially if it involves sending
thousands of athletes all to one location for a series of events.

Disclaimer: The opinions above are my own, and not those of my employer or
any other organization to which I belong.


Joseph Paul Rocchi
IBM Global Services



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 21:58:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:58:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Heaven and Earth
In-Reply-To: <200202141650.g1EGoI319553@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214220051.LBSB319.dorsey@link>

I haven't actually used Heaven and Earth, but I strongly suspect the
"massed pile of numbers" is in .csv format or some similar format intended
to be easily converted by various software.  Have you tried taking the H&E
output, saving it as just one file, then using File menu and choosing
Import in Excel, Quattro Pro, 1-2-3 or other spreadsheet program of your
choice?  This suggestion may save you a lot of work, if you haven't been
doing it.

CSV format is usually handiest for this kind of thing.  It stands for Comma
Separated Values.  It is a flat ASCII text file containing nothing but the
data, some commas, and some newlines.  After translating a CSV to a
spreadsheet, each separate line of CSV text becomes a spreadsheet row, and
the data between the commas in the CSV goes into the separate columns of
the spreadsheet row.  It is very easy to write a PERL script or whatever
for importing CSV files into your favorite database program, and some
database software includes an import/export utility for CSVs.

If you are like me you've had to manually munge a lot of the data from
disparate sources that you import into your database.  I usually get the
data in CSV, then open it with Excel or 1-2-3, do my munging, export it to
CSV, use script to insert into database, with appropriate doublechecking of
the insert.  The spreadsheet makes it easier for a human to sift through.

--Laning
"The three principle virtues of a good programmer are Laziness, Impatience,
and Hubris."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 23:30:02 EST, SinEater40K@aol.com typed:
>
>I actually have it set up and have used it. Its a great program but still it 
>gives a massed pile of numbers, i have to correlate that into a readable
text 
>and use the books to get a grasp on what those numbers mean :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:24:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:24:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
In-Reply-To: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>; from josephr@ca.ibm.com on Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>

On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500, Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM wrote:
> 
> This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics
> were just one of MANY series of games.
> Why not revive another - and run it in the off years.

Good idea.

> Drop the entire "Professional/Amateur" distinctions, already dying, which
> were basically set up to make the olympics a upper class only party back in
> the 19th century - tell people "We want to see your BEST athletes - and we
> don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
> whatever."

Hrmph.  I _like_ the amateur ideal.  As I've said before, the
difference between an amateur and a professional is the difference
between one's spouse and a whore:-)

> Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> fairly across the board.

Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
man in history.

> Remove the 'artistic interpretation' sports - An athlete should compete
> directly either against other athletes, the clock, or a measurable scoring
> system - not before panels of judges who grade each subjectively.

Agreed.

And it'd be nice to have electrical scoring taken out of fencing.
Bleah.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
MS could no more resist the urge to co-opt and/or subvert Mono or
related techologies than a Great White could resist a tasty meal at the
Ft. Lauderdale Haemophiliac Seniors Beach club.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:33:07
Subject: [TML] OT Uniforms
Message-ID: <F211tmdUSoLiOOsfifs0000bd12@hotmail.com>

That is one possibility. From my own experiences with Space-A travel, you're 
often unable to go directly to your intended destination so you catch a hop 
to someplace in the general direction, hoping to catch another flight from 
there. As a result, you frequently find yourself stranded in some obscure, 
little place you never intended to be waiting for the next flight with 
available space. That has its own adventure possibilities.

>From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
>
>John Lambert wrote:
> > Retirees
> > can also catch space-available hops (flights) on military aircraft; 
>that
> > could translate into free military passage in Traveller.
>
>Oooooohhh. That's a hot one.
>
>The PCs try to deadhead to some uninteresting major port but get
>redirected moments before jump to a war zone.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:49:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:49:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <169.8d77ddc.299d9917@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   Note that all the really _weird_ hinge-licking, hot water drinking, 
butt-dragging, all-night howling I'd offered up as shenanigans for a truly 
_troubled_ Ship's Monkey  were, in fact, symptoms my former cat, Phil 
exhibited during his slide into Madness (according to the Vet, cats just go 
_crazy_ sometimes).

   I guess a character could always purchase a Gened monkey that's had the 
urge/need to eliminate waste completely _removed_. 

   Number One: "Okay Cap, I made sure _this_ time to get 2 of those really 
_big_ packs of disposables for that damned monkey. I put 'em in the Ship's 
Locker..." 
   Captain:"Oh, no need, Number One. The monkey no longer requires diapers."
   Number One: "Don't tell me you've (UGH!) _toilet-trained_ the damned 
thing!"
   Captain: "No, I traded Mr. Chuckles in for a Gened Model. Not only does 
this new one _not_ smoke, but it doesn't _need_ to use the fresher either."
   Number One (taking a closer look at the new monkey): "Hmmm, this one 
doesn't even have an _ANUS!_...Or genetalia...You sure this'll work?"
   
   Too bad the thing just winds up _exploding_ after a while :)
   Ain't technology grand?   
   -Ken-



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 22:49:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:49:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time,
shanhat@angelfire.com writes:

> I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> 
> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
> esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a
> bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't
> know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was
> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's
> monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some
> plot uses for said monkey.
> 
> Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM:
> "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a
> silly idea.

In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have 
done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work 
on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a 
number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural 
form, but not fully sentient.

You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps 
a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of 
this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to 
speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known 
sign) and can type and use a computer.  

So, you could have the thing keep trying to get access to the 
computer to attempt to communicate, while the PCs (presumably if 
they have *any* sense at all) wish to keep a seemingly ordinary 
monkey from playing on their computer.

For extra fun, if you can keep this going for a while, you could have 
a linguistic historian who knows sign as a passenger and have the 
monkey plead with this passenger to help free it from the people 
who have enslaved it and thwarted all of its efforts to communicate 
(ie the PCs)...

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:13:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:13:27 +1300
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <F143lEQQFP9uINO2xZi0000ab17@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6CFB67.6803.809EE4@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 17:56, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Sooner or later these boobs will figure out the correct employment
> doctrine for these rockets and flatten a settlement or two.  Rather than
> send them off in dribs and drabs, wait until you've got 40 or 50 of the
> wretched things and then have a launching party.  They don't even need
> to work that out for themselves, all they need to do is be able to read
> history.
>      Guess we're lucky they're mostly illiterate, huh?

That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
running round there anymore.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:24:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <169.8d77ddc.299d9917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C4749.9070203@yarranet.net.au>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>    Hi gang,
>    Note that all the really _weird_ hinge-licking, hot water drinking, 
> butt-dragging, all-night howling I'd offered up as shenanigans for a truly 
> _troubled_ Ship's Monkey  were, in fact, symptoms my former cat, Phil 
> exhibited during his slide into Madness (according to the Vet, cats just go 
> _crazy_ sometimes).

Oh no, my cat must be going mad because he regularly hops in the shower with me to 
drink the water. But then I'm more concerned about all that time he spends smoking at 
the computer. >;D

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:20:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:20:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com>
 <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C4641.95EBE657@attbi.com>



Thomas Vickers wrote:
> 
> I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
> week's worth of hell
                                                
That discribes a quite a few Pcs, in the games I've run and played in.
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:27:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <3C6CFB67.6803.809EE4@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013729258.2060.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
> batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
> running round there anymore.

Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 individual
blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a single
massive attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020214235430.LQVY319.dorsey@link>

Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
on that?

Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
very popular practice.

--Laning

On  Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 09:42:47 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
<<<SNIPPED INTERESTING POST OF U.S. POLICY ON MILITARY RETIREES WEARING
THEIR UNIFORMS>>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Feb 14 23:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:13:09 -0000
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
References: <F1927oxwCKg0QonUXOH000078b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010801c1b5b3$ccbb87a0$62080150@jimcatchpole>

Jeff Rowse asked :-

>
> *Can anyone in the UK *really* get and watch Channel 5 with a normal,
> non-Digital, non-Satellite, aerial in the UK??  Nobody I know can!
>

Yes    :-)

Since the day they started broadcasting our picture has been *perfect* -
even when the other channels aren't !

I guess we've got everybody else's signal ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:12:46 -0600
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C6C527E.A5B75BBC@premier.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 14/02/02 00:56:20 GMT Standard Time,
> shanhat@angelfire.com writes:
> 
> > I know this is going to sound a little silly but...
> >
> > I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
> > esque trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a
> > bit of land leave on Dinom they decided to buy a monkey (I don't
> > know, they were drunk and thought it'd be a good idea). I was
> > wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of a ship's
> > monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone could think of some
> > plot uses for said monkey.
> >
> > Both serious and silly replies welcomed. What was I thinking? GM:
> > "You want a monkey? OK...that'll be...errm...Cr 500." That was a
> > silly idea.
> 
> In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have
> done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work
> on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a
> number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural
> form, but not fully sentient.

Do they actually use the term "uplift?"  If so, you might consider
contacting the folks at the Oxford English Dictionary Science Fiction
Citation Project, as they are looking for uses of the terms "uplift" and
"uplifting" from authors other than David Brin (Steve Jackson already
has submitted citations from GURPS Uplift):

http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml
> 
> You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps
> a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of
> this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to
> speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known
> sign) and can type and use a computer.

Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
nourished).

http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html

For a more detailed look at the development of this concept:

http://www.monkeybagel.com/shit.html

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:19:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:19:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215002137.LXDR319.dorsey@link>

This is not at all right.  Has anyone in the press picked up on this story
yet?  The part about "no Pepsi, Coke" should get the press' interest, if
nothing else.

With respect to Traveller, IMTU this sort of indignity is role-played out.
If enough of the right people make the right kind of stink, then the
situation is improved.  Enough of the right people might mean MTU
equivalent a top-level bureaucrat at ATF calling up various top SLOC people
to prominent journalists raising a national debate on it to angry friends
and family of the mistreated law enforcement types picketing entrances.
That last scenario could make for interesting roleplaying if they need to a
permit to picket and don't have one.  Who is going to order an agent to
disperse or arrest their own spouse and other loved ones?  If you're the
agent and get such an order, what do you do?  Depending on subsequent
events, what further public relations nightmare develops?

--Laning

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 10:34:51 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
<<<SNIP OF AN ASTOUNDING LITANY OF PETTY INDIGNITIES THE SALT LAKE OLYMPIC
COMMITTEE IMPOSES ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTECTING THEIR LIVES>>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:17:49 +1100
Subject: [TML] Totally OT: Australia Moves to the North Atlantic
Message-ID: <OF980015FF.0716B650-ONCA256B61.00013887@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Apparently we're a lot nearer to you all (except Rupert, Frank, and Andrew 
M-V) today:
        http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/australia.shtml

Funny, I haven't noticed any difference. I guess that's because Canberra 
is even more ignored than the rest of the country...  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 00:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:33:18 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Monkeys
Message-ID: <OF90A0F978.6225365A-ONCA256B61.0001FFCA@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Loren replied to someone:
>>I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the role of
>>a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if anyone 
>>could think of some plot uses for said monkey.
>
>Don't monkeys have a tendency to steal small, shiney things, like
>keys, memory chips, and other vital plot macguffins?

You don't mean like the Beaker, do you? The one from an early JTAS?? The 
one that is copyright Loren K. Wiseman???

See this (the original article also has a picture):
        http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/kagekiha/traveller/jtas//beaker.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:10:25 +1000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003501c1b5bd$a79e4b60$115d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> the collection of crypto-fascists and third world mobsters that comprise
> the IOC

Ah.  That brings back memories of 2000...

The fact that Mr Samaranch had been one of Franco's blue-eyed boys was a
source of vast amusement.

Hmm.  I may have to look at the Antiama milieu again.  Solomani and Games...
And monkeys, too, of course.  Something to distract myself with for the rest
of the afternoon...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com









From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:40:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>>>A player is going to be justifiably pissed if he puts a lot of work
>>>>into a detailed design and another player can put together a *better*
>>>>design with the simple system.

>>>>And likewise, while the player using the simple system won't be too
>>>>upset if his design is somewhat inferior to the one from the detailed
>>>>system, he's gonna be understandly upset is it's so much *worse* that
>>>>it'sz a major problem.

All of this is true ONLY if you believe it's even logicallly POSSIBLE to
have a complex and simple system be compatible! Since I don't think it's
possible, then every GM will have to decide which system they are using.
The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
use the simple system and this will never come up. 

>>>>> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
>>>>> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
>>>>>>>>Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
>>>>>>>>somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.

Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
1. Yes you can 
2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
clothes are too small. 
3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult. 
4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
clothes shut.
5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
or the the coat length of the player

>>>>>>Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics
is
>>>>>>going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
>>>>>>system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 

Not at all. You dont have to 'throw out physics' to use *abstraction* (the
processing of simplifying complexes processes by reducing it to only the
factors you are interested in measuring). A simple system DOESNT need to
know about surface area. It needs to know about weapon and equipmment
limitations. That's abstraction. 

>>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
>>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
>>>>>>easy to see it is.

No it wont. Same answer as before:
1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
rule on this.

>>>>>>"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system
are
>>>>>>still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
>>>>>>grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.

How's that working out for you? Anything so far? I didn't think so....

>>>>>> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression
that we
>>>>>> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in
the
>>>>>> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....
>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not? 

Because it's not logically possible. Abstraction says that you ONLY want to
measure certain factors. The complex system says you want to measure MOST
factors (remember that we're one step away from real-life engineering).

So you can't keep *MOST* factors and ALSO keep ONLY some factors. In other
words, you can't "simplify" 100 by making it 10. You wont get simpler,
you'll just get 'smaller' numbers, but you'll have just as many. 

>>>>>> The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
>>>>>> the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
>>>>>> that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
>>>>>> weren't part of the original list.

Good luck to you there! Let me know when  you wrap that up and make it
available to the public! ;)

>>>>>>Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But
>>>>>>they'll be there if they are ever needed.

I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details. 

The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
"insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
ignore them. 

>>>>>>Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
>>>>>>mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same
volume
>>>>>>(ie "same tonnage").
>>>>>>Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.

No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with that. Make
it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into account. 

>>>>>>Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
>>>>>>*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
>>>>>>trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to
know
>>>>>>*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how
much
>>>>>>surface area they cover).

And someone always wants to know if their Arm Strength is greater than
their Leg Strength. Does your Traveller game have different stats for Arm
Strenght and Leg Strength? No! Because it's not that important to the game.


The Traveller system isn't a "Simpler" version of the Multiple Limb
Strength system. It's a simple system that completely *ignores* multiple
limb strength. 

>>>>>>And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.

Boo hoo - you can't sqeeze more weapons into the ship than my design system
ALLOWs  you do. Same with High Guard. Same with FF&S, same with having
Special Arm Strength. If the rules allow it - fine. If the GM is using
rules that DONT allow it. Too bad. 

The explantion. I'm the GM and I only want to use this design system. The
other stuff matters/doesn't matter in my game. 

> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
> all. 

>>>>>>But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
>>>>>>coexist in the same universe.

No they dont. You can have your SCOUT ship in  your universe and I can have
my SCOUT ship in my Traveller universe and they can be built with different
systems but working in the same universe. Both will be recognizable as
"Scout" ships, but I don't have to allow your Scout ship built with GURPS
Traveller into my MegaTraveller game. 

It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
to do away with.

>>>>>>*Neither* is acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in
your unioverse.
>>>>>>And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
designs/ships.

Of course! The GM should ban systems he doesn't want in his universe! 

No Traveller GM I know of allows characters to be built with CT,
MegaTraveller, GURPS Traveller or TNE. The GM *has* to pick and choose
systems.

I'm just asking for one more choice!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 01:40:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:40:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <200202142041_MC3-F205-D854@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if
anyone
could think of some plot uses for said monkey.<

I've read alot of ideas about how to get rid of the monkey, but it seems to
me that the players have done the GM a big favor!

It's like they just bought 10 points worth of Common Sense. 

1. Dont' want them to go somewhere dangerous?  The monkey hoots and hollars
and goes apefits whenever they go that direction.
2. Want the players to go somewhere? Curious george just has to wander over
there. 
3. Want the players to trust someone they're suspicous of? If the monkey
likes them they must be good!
4. Want to show how bad a villian is? Monkey gets kidnapped!
5. Want them to avoid a combat? Monkey unclips their power pack - he's
michevious that way. 
6. Want them to misjump? Monkey starts pressing buttons. 
7. Want them to break into somewhere and the players haven't got a clue?
Monkey steals an access card. 

I think you get the idea. 

Now don't forget that pound for pound, you want the monkey to more useful
than annoying. Otherwise, the audience will ask why not just throw him out
the airlock (e.g. Blawp), but otherwise, use the monkey for the kind of
"cute bits" that make a story fun. Comic relief, meeting girls, creating a
mess in zero-g. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 02:53:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:53:48 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both 
the types and execution of certain moves.  It doesn't matter if you are the 
most artistic skater in the world; because if you fall, or turn a triple 
into a double, or step out of a landing, you will lose points.  This is why 
the bar keeps being raised.  A few years ago, the quad was the undreamable 
dream, now it almost required to medal.  And even a few of the women are 
beginning to land them in practise!"


Mr. Berry,

     Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure skating 
is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
     The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at 
least four times during their program but the judges defended their decision 
because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic presentation is 
part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!
     The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is 
another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the 
gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 2002 
without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply requires you to 
do better than your competitors, or a physcial standard, or the clock and 
not you expertise in performing a triple-wipple-dipple, full bullwinkle, 
quad, or any other "artistic" nonsense.
     The winner of the cross-country race in 1980 completed the course 
faster than any of his opponents.  The winner in 2002 won by doing the same 
thing.  It suddenly wasn't required that he perform some sort of trick for 
"artistic points" to win the gold.  Ski beautifully or ski looking like a 
sack of sh*t, all that matters is skiing faster than the other fellow.
     Figure skating is an art form hijacked by a cabal of international 
goons for money grubbing purposes.  Now I enjoy grubbing for money as much 
as the next guy, but at least I'm honest about it.  Don't present the 
activity as one thing when it is actually another.

     "(Go Giants!)"

     Boy oh boy!  I can hardly wait, even though the Red Sox are REALLY 
going to SUCK this year!  How's that new park you fellows have?  It sure 
looks like a great place to watch a ballgame in.  Any local foods served in 
the park, like the brats in Milwaukee or deep-dish pizza in Chi-town?  Here 
at home, you can get chowder and clam cakes at the PawSox park.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 02:55:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:55:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <200202150120.g1F1KPi07309@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020214184858.00a3d780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:27:38 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson 
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

>Rupert Boleyn writes:
> >
> > That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket
> > batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors
> > running round there anymore.
>
>Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 
>individual blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental 
>trauma than a single massive attack.

And less likely to provoke an even more massive attack in 
return.  Harassment shelling is one thing, but if you get enough ordnance 
together to *obliterate* a target, the authorities *will* hunt you 
down.  Whatever it takes.  You have just crossed the line from "partisan 
resistance" to "hostile military force", and will be answered in kind.

ObTrav:  al Q... um, Ine Givar, anyone?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:00:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Mire and Jacent
In-Reply-To: <200202150120.g1F1KPi07309@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1b5cc$fb00e420$0b01a8c0@duck>

I wish to Landgrab Mire/Darrian and Jacent/Darrian.

Once I get done with them, I will come back for more.  :-)

I hereby release all prior claims to Anduril/Sword Worlds.  I had originally
claimed Anduril even before joining the TML, but now release it.  (BTW, I
highly recommend it to someone who wants to try a landgrab.  There is
absolutely *nothing* written about it, pretty much guaranteeing that
whatever is written won't conflict with canon.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:31:24 +0000
Subject: [TML] Different Tech Paths (was: Earth's economy...)
Message-ID: <F118J64TBU25JJzxvoE000033b8@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "That's one of the reasons I like the existing TL rules, rather than 
re-interpreting Tech Level to mean just "wealth".  The different
availability of various things between systems helps drive home the
point that the Traveller universe is bigger than worlds, and the
nearest 'familiar' territory might be months away.  (Or more, if you're 
trying to fit a TL 8 maneuver drive into your otherwise TL 11 starship)."


Mr. Little,

     Yeah, the old "We're not in Kansas anymore" effect.  Let the PCs know 
their not just visiting another version of 2002, TL8, Terra.  That's one of 
the fun parts of role-playing.
     The problem lies in the fact that the existing TL rules are geared for 
role-playing and not for world building.  Any TL rules will always lean 
towards the role-playing side of this argument because, after all, we are 
dealing with a GAME and not a model of REAL LIFE.
     I think another part of the problem is that more people play with 
Traveller than actually play Traveller.

     Too bad the ship had ROTARY sails...

     " :)  I like it."

     It was a lot of fun to drop that one on him.  I'm worried I got the 
technology wrong though.
     IIRC, I designed the rotary sail driven cargo ships using the MT system 
and with some supplemental rules that appeared in the Challenge.  The sails 
didn't use the Magnus Effect, as all other rotary sails used in the follwing 
design systems.  Instead, they acted like a horizontal windmill.
     There was a Hard Times Era adventure published in the Challenge 
featured carts propelled by this type of rotary sails.  The PCs are hired to 
evict a group of thugs from a solar panel farm on an equatorial island.  The 
thugs have taken over the island and the locals want it back.  The PCs need 
to sneak onto the island.  They travel in a normal sailing sloop armed with 
blackpowder cannon and must avoid the thugs paddlewheel driven, steam 
powered, patrol boats.  Once on the island, they travel to the solar panel 
farm in land carts powered by rotary sails.
     There HAD to be design rules for these rotary sails because I designed 
a rotary sail powered merchant ship for my campaign.  The problem now is I 
can't find anything about the damn things!  Naturally, I don't have my old 
notes either... (sigh)
     Horizontal windmills were used in many places here on Earth.  In 
ancient Persia (where many think windmills were first invented), one region 
used horizontal windmills exclusively.  The wind in that area ALWAYS blew 
from the same direction, so all you need do was build a wall between the 
windmill and the wind, then let a bit of the windmill "peek" out around the 
wall.
     If you were in an area where wind direction was more variable, you 
built a tall sleeve around the windmill with a two slots in it.  You turned 
the sleeve around as the wind direction changed.  The wind entered via one 
slot, turned the wheel, and eixted via the other.
     L. Sprague de Camp's "Ancient Engineers", a book I heartily recommend 
to everyone, describes all of this far better than I could.
     Part of my campaign was set on Winston, a TL6 world with a popualtion 
under 500K.  Maintaining all the infrastructure required for a petroleum 
based economy with that few people would be clos to impossible.  Even coal 
or wood fired external combustion engines would prove hard to keep fed.  
Unless I wanted the population huddled around mines or wood lots, and I 
didn't, I had to come up with another way to power their water-borne 
transportation.  Enter rotary sails.
     The rotary designs had another bonus too.  Fewer men were needed to 
crew one when compared to a conventially rigged ship.
     So, I have this fully detailed world with tiny, far-flung communities 
of partial xenophobes held together by a network of rotary sail-driven, 
ocean-crossing vessels.  But I can't "prove" that the vessels are "kosher" 
'cause I lost the design rules.  D'oh!
     Have I ever mentioned that I'm a complete idiot?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 03:39:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:39:44 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F171Cl4tyDrodCugC2300019866@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket
batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors
running round there anymore."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I guess my point was that they don't need a Soviet advisor or any other 
"sooper-dooper" secret information, the "proper" use for these things is an 
open secret.  Just pick up any history of the Eastern Front.
     They either can't use them "properly"; i.e they don't want to try and 
hide the existance of the required 100+ rocket depot from the Isrealis or 
can't hide it long enough, or they don't want to use them "properly", i.e. 
flattening a settlement with 100+ rounds of HE will REALLY bring the IDF 
hammer down.
     Of course, given how desperate they feel things are getting in this 
latest round of Intefada(sp), anyone want to bet that they don't begin using 
them "properly"?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 04:02:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:02:34 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that
40 individual blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more
mental trauma than a single massive attack."


Mr. St. Clair,

     Wiping an "illegal" Jewish settlement off the face of the West Bank in 
a single attack would most certainly cause quite a bit of mental trauma.
     It also may have the effect of sending some of the less hearty 
"settlers", most of which are purported US citizens, scurrying back to the 
Western Hemisphere.  Living with the occasional human bomb and sniping 
incident is one thing, knowing that your apartment block could disappear 
with you in it is something entirely else.  There could be a bit of a West 
Bank "bug-out" afterwards.
     Of course, the folks who don't leave will be the real bitter-enders and 
will be next to impossible to shift.

     "And less likely to provoke an even more massive attack in return."

     That might be the real reason.  Although with each side sliding into 
despair, I wouldn't want to bet on a "katyusha urban development" program 
not being launched.  Life in Gaza is getting pretty grim.

     "Harassment shelling is one thing, but if you get enough ordnance
together to *obliterate* a target, the authorities *will* hunt you down.  
Whatever it takes.  You have just crossed the line from "partisan
resistance" to "hostile military force", and will be answered in kind."

     Of course, being viewed as an actual nation-state is one of the PLA's 
goals.  Flexing your nation-state muscles and using "hostile military force" 
instead of "partisan resistance" could be viewed as an accomplishment of 
that goal.
     I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other 
Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that 
brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they 
killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked 
airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.
     Being invaded, killed, and occupied by Isreal as if they were an actual 
nation-state might be viewed as an "improvement" in certain quarters, no 
matter what horrific act casued the change.  The burden may be more on 
Isreal's not responding to the provocation than on any Palestinian 
organization's fear of reprisal.


ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals" agreement 
with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal" with the 
Imperium about the nobility?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 04:24:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:24:53 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hussam-2 missile a wild card in Denotam conflict
Message-ID: <OFD5235CF2.41FA1E63-ON85256B61.001755B7@lotus.com>

HUSSAM-2 MISSILE A WILD CARD IN DENOTAM CONFLICT
Denotam/Vilis
 
The Hussam-2 is a homemade, "extremely primitive" rocket with an estimated 
range of up to eighty thousand kilometers according to Rejemy Bernie, 
Vilis Sector editor for Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment in Vilis. 

The nearly 6-meter-long missiles, propelled by a mixture of sugar, 
ammonia, alcohol and carbon compounds, are believed to be in the hands of 
Shamash, the Denotam separatist belters whose military wing has carried 
out terrorist attacks against Denotam civilians and Imperial Navy targets. 


On Day 66, the Imperial Navy announced it had seized a shipment of eight 
Hussam-2 missiles as they were being transported by a belt ship between 
two outer belt planetoids. 

It's believed that the Hussam-2 can be produced quickly. The rocket is 
considered the next step up from the Hussam-1 and the homemade warheads 
that Shamash used previously, according to Bernie. 

Those warheads had a shorter range, so the Navy could more easily track 
them with relative ease and move quickly to intercept the attackers, 
Bernie said. But the Hussam-2 rockets -- bearing warheads containing 1.1 
to 1.5 tons of explosive material -- could be more difficult to trace. 

"Also, they could potentially be used en masse to target a refinery or the 
Navy base," he said. "They would cause significant damage and there would 
be little the Navy could do about it." 

Bernie said it's unclear how the Hussam-2, whose accuracy he describes as 
"poor," might affect the military balance between the Navy and the 
separatist belters. 

"Although the Navy maintains overwhelming military superiority, they may 
find themselves powerless to stop these missiles if the Belters can 
develop reliable technology and tactics," Bernie said. 

The missiles also could lead to harsher Naval retaliation and prompt more 
incursions to look for missile factories, said Bernie. 

"It will become a battle as to whether the Belters can continue 
manufacturing these things," Bernie noted. 

The Navy say the missiles, though highly inaccurate, nevertheless leave 
the Denotam population centers exposed to attack. 

KEY QUESTIONS

Could the deployment of the Hussam-2 missile escalate the conflict between 
Navy backed Denotam governments and the Belters? 

Does Hussam-2 suggest a greater threat to Denotam security? 

Does Hussam-2 signal that the Belters or Shamash could eventually have 
access to even more potent, longer-range ammunition? 

Could Hussam-2 affect the balance of power between the legitimate Denotam 
government and the separatists? 

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:04:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:04:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
References: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C96D3.A5D7D1DF@premier.net>



Michael Taylor wrote:

> <<snip>>
> 
> I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
> details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
> GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details.
> 
> The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
> "insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
> ignore them.

All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
Tell me which details you find "insignificant."  For me to know how to
address your objections, I need to know exactly what they are.  Anyway,
here's the AuricTech Shipyards _Sentinel_-class scout/courier:

**begin transmission**

_Sentinel_, _Sentinel_-class Scout/Courier (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards; Lead Designer: Erik Grierson

Statistics
Tons: 100std ( SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 19.8m x 9.9m x 9.9m
Volume: 1400m3
Cargo: 4std (1 x Large cargo hatch; Cargo handler:1 x 5-tonne capacity)
Mass (L/C): 665t/579t
Maintenance Points: 21
Crew: 2/4
Cost: 59.974 MCr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 8

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3xFltComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86).
3xFibComp
(CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No
bridge.
Communications: 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 4xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 1xLIDAR
(14.5
[500kkm], 0.5MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-1 (-1 at 50MW, -1.5 at 8MW), Act:-0.5, Neu:-2,
Grav:0 (Chameleon coating, Basic IR masking, 1 level Stealth, Neutrino
masking)

Performance
3 Jump (10std/pc fuel)
2/2.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:32MW)
1/1.1 Contra-grav (11MW)
3488kph/3590kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2616kph/2693kph)
2 Power (/Fus:83MW,1yr )
0 Battery
30.6 Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:12.8,1MW)
4/2/1 Accomodations (Small staterooms/Large staterooms/Emergency Low
berth)
108  Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good food/Storage) (18 weeks of Good
rations for six crew)
2 G-Comp
1 Sandcaster (AV:97 /Cans:20)
10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure

Weaponry
1 x 20-Mj Triple-mount X-ray Laser turret with MFD (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
[3,200/11-11-11-11] (LR) (Point Defense RoF: 800)

Features
1xAirlock
1xDecontamination Airlock
1xDocking Umbilical
3xShip's locker (0.05std ea.)
1xArmory (0.21std ea.) (Capacity: 6)
1xGym (2.5std ea.)
1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:12)

Small Craft
1xMinHgr (4std, 1 hatches)

Backups
Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm]). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm]). 1xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).
Power & Fuel: Fusion (8MW).

Crew Details
2xMnvr. 1xGunn. 1xScrn.

**end transmission**

I await your response.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:34:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:34:30 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D54B6.21458.3EAFDA@localhost>

On 14 Feb 2002, at 20:40, Michael Taylor wrote:

> Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
> 1. Yes you can 
> 2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
> clothes are too small. 
> 3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult.
> 4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your
> holding your clothes shut.
> 5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
> 6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of
> the weapon or the the coat length of the player

So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's 
wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if the 
large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's 7' 
tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more i then 
have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this 
statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to 'guessitmate' 
it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down. All in all having 
that stat save a bit of hastle.

> >>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
> >>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and
> >>>>>>how easy to see it is.
> 
> No it wont. Same answer as before:
> 1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
> 2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
> Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
> 3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
> 4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
> 5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
> 6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
> rule on this.

And how do you tell if the other slightly bigger/smaller ship beside it 
is also in the same situation? What about a yet bigger or smaller one? 
Again you're making it up. There are a number of players around who 
find it difficult to make assesments of situations they're comfortable 
with in games where so much is just 'made up' - it can feel arbitary.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:44:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:44:50 -0700
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 04:02:34AM +0000
References: <F188BeZVo2d3gwhDCvY000019bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020214224450.A8840@4dv.net>

On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 04:02:34AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
>      I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other 
> Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that 
> brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they 
> killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked 
> airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.

They _have_ been far from the most politically astute of groups.
Unlike, say, a certain rogue state which destroyed the USS Liberty
with malice aforethought, but which has political connexions such that
repercussions simply...weren't.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It is possible to be so openminded that one's brains come spilling out.
                                                      --Flavio Carillo

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 05:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:55:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
Message-ID: <20020214.215508.-172943.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Would a gentle knowledgeable person kindly answer this?

1. How old is Emperor Strephon?

2. When did he ascend the throne?

Thank you in advance,

Turokan



We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:12:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:12:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6CA6E2.5BF5EEFB@sympatico.ca>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      "Not true, partially.  There are standards which must be met in both

> SNIP

> beginning to land them in practise!"
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure skating
> is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
>      The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at
> least four times during their program but the judges defended their decision
> because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic presentation is
> part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!
>

Sir, while I appreciate your sentiments as do most of my fellow Canadians.  You
must understand that this whole episode is further proof of the not widely
published law the states "No Canadian Figure Skating Gold Medals."

All cynicism and conspiracy theory stuff aside, as a professional referee for
the sport of Paintball, judging can be a real pain.  While we do not deal with
artistic merit in paintball, the split second decisions required in the last 10
seconds of bunkering (to win on points) in an otherwise stalemate game are only
hampered by the sideline reffing provided by some spectators.  I certainly wish
that my eyesight was good enough to call a paintball break from 20-30 feet away,
through safety netting, on the hidden side of a player.

>   The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is
> another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the
> gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 2002
> without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply requires you to

Again in Paintball we have a similar problem, but ours is technology related not
ability.  You would seriously be surprised how much argument you could land
yourself in defining semi-automatic for paintball.  We are almost to the point
with both mechanical and electronic triggers that not only must we stipulate the
obvious one ball per trigger pull, but must also stipulate trigger distance
travelled and pound pull required.  Also the continuos argument with the
electronic markers about switch bounce being an inevitable bug, and not an
undocumented feature.

Oh to ref a simple sport with only one ball or puck in play, maybe even 10
player full contact pinochle games would be less stressful.  Oh well at least I
do not have to pay for movie tickets to the latest action flick to watch guns
with endless magazines and people being repeatedly shot and walking away or even
returning fire.

Michael




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:23:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many
 TU's
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com> <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3C6CA956.DDC14929@sympatico.ca>

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:49:24PM -0500, Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM wrote:
> >
> > This is even in the classic tradition - after all, the ancient Olympics

SNIP

> > don't care how they're paid - government sponsored, pay-for-play,
> > whatever."
>
> Hrmph.  I _like_ the amateur ideal.  As I've said before, the
> difference between an amateur and a professional is the difference
> between one's spouse and a whore:-)

There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other Tropical
destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they must be
happy just for the competition.

>
> > Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> > across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> > fairly across the board.
>
> Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
> history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
> man in history.

Maybe you have a valid point there, Canada has a short history of using
performance debilitating drugs to level the field in Snowboarding and we still
won.

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:01:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:01:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re:  Uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20020214235430.LQVY319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214230042.009ea310@mindspring.com>

At 06:52 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
>there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
>service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
>terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
>on that?
>
>Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
>rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
>common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
>more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
>very popular practice.

You might want to ask this in us.military.army, as it is more a US military 
question than a Traveller issue.  We have people there who can quote AR 
670-1 from memory.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:59:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the many  TU's
In-Reply-To: <3C6CA956.DDC14929@sympatico.ca>
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
 <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225232.009fc510@mindspring.com>

At 01:23 AM 2/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
>Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other 
>Tropical
>destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they 
>must be
>happy just for the competition.

 From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had 
never before swam 100 meters, never even seen an Olympic pool representing 
his country.  He was wearing plain swimming trunks, and the other people in 
his heat (who were at the Olympics under a program to allow developing 
nations to place athletes in sports the nation isn't known for) both 
DQd.  So he swam alone.  The most painful, awkward 100 meters you ever 
saw.  We were wondering if he was going to make it at all!

But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally 
touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a 
medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/olympics2000/swimming/newsid_931000/931508.stm

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 06:51:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:51:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
In-Reply-To: <20020214.215508.-172943.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225056.009fbb20@mindspring.com>

At 09:55 PM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:

>1. How old is Emperor Strephon?

born 1048


>2. When did he ascend the throne?

1071

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:13:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214230428.009fd8f0@mindspring.com>

At 08:40 PM 2/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Okay. Someone who needs to know.
>1. Yes you can
>2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
>clothes are too small.
>3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult.
>4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
>clothes shut.
>5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's.
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
>or the the coat length of the player

But then I want to know if I can flip the door switch using the barrel of 
my rifle, or use the weapon as an imprvosed cane.. why not just go ahead 
and give the GM the info?

And I have had players, good ones mind you,  who would raise specific 
complaints about half of those hand waves.

My take on this has always been to start with the detailed design system, 
then build easier, compatible versions.  GURPS does this nicely with the 
VE2 to modular design system we see in Traveller


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:30:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:30:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F34x440BcEtNM4f9Sul00019918@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214231709.009e9860@mindspring.com>

At 02:53 AM 2/15/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     Sorry, but that proves that the standard for winning in figure 
> skating is entirely subjective.  It's an art form, not a sport.
>     The Russians tripped, stumbled, and stepped out of their landing at 
> least four times during their program but the judges defended their 
> decision because the Russian program was more artistic.  If artistic 
> presentation is part of the scoring package, you're not competing in a sport!

And we are having this discussion only because it is becoming very clear 
that the judge(s) voted the way the did as part of a deal.  Everyone knows 
that the Canadians won, the chants of "6.0" were unprecedented.  This is 
why the IOC is threatening to disqualify the French judge and use the 
scores from the alternate, who scored Canada first, Russia second.

Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of 
thing.  In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off 
the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking 
anything, you have to do it with grace, style, and in time to your music.

>     The fact that a "quad" is now "required" to compete seriously is 
> another blow to figure skating's pose as a sport.  You could have won the 
> gold in 1980 without a "quad", but you cannot even think of winning in 
> 2002 without performing one.  Winning gold in a real sport simply 
> requires you to do better than your competitors, or a physcial standard, 
> or the clock and not you expertise in performing a triple-wipple-dipple, 
> full bullwinkle, quad, or any other "artistic" nonsense.

The bar has been riased.. what was the standard for winning the 100 meters 
in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.  In 
this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the edge.

>     The winner of the cross-country race in 1980 completed the course 
> faster than any of his opponents.  The winner in 2002 won by doing the 
> same thing.  It suddenly wasn't required that he perform some sort of 
> trick for "artistic points" to win the gold.  Ski beautifully or ski 
> looking like a sack of sh*t, all that matters is skiing faster than the 
> other fellow.

That's sking.  This is figure skating. Part of the requiremnt is too do it 
with style and grace.  That is difficult in of itself.  Michael Jordan can 
let his tongue hang out and react when he misses a shot, but skaters have 
to keep smiling and not react, even when things go wrong.  I saw a girl at 
the National Finals fall twice in her routine.  She kept smiling until she 
finished, then broke down.  That takes heart.

>     Figure skating is an art form hijacked by a cabal of international 
> goons for money grubbing purposes.  Now I enjoy grubbing for money as 
> much as the next guy, but at least I'm honest about it.  Don't present 
> the activity as one thing when it is actually another.

Uh-huh.  Does it help if i mention that cometivtive figure skating has been 
going on for 150 years?  And we got rid of school forms as being a 
pointless artistic expression with no athletic merit?

>     "(Go Giants!)"
>
>     Boy oh boy!  I can hardly wait, even though the Red Sox are REALLY 
> going to SUCK this year!  How's that new park you fellows have?  It sure 
> looks like a great place to watch a ballgame in.  Any local foods served 
> in the park, like the brats in Milwaukee or deep-dish pizza in 
> Chi-town?  Here at home, you can get chowder and clam cakes at the PawSox park

Pacific Bell Park, aka The Phone Booth, is great.  There isn't a bad seat 
in the place, and you are close enough to really get some good heckling in, 
especially when the Dodgers (spit) come to town.  Local food?  Here?  Hard 
to define.  We do get Anschor Steam beer on tap, and the best garlic fries 
in the nation.. and chinese food, sushi, kilbasa dogs, there's a couple of 
Italian stands...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 07:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:28:07 -0800
Subject: [TML] Imperium question
Message-ID: <20020214.232809.-94495.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks Doug, I needed that......

Turokan

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:51:52 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:55 PM 2/14/02 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >1. How old is Emperor Strephon?
> 
> born 1048
> 
> 
> >2. When did he ascend the throne?
> 
> 1071
> 

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:40:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:40:30 +1100
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <ML-2.3.1013729258.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C6CE59E.8050201@gmx.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
>>That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
>>batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
>>running round there anymore.
>>
>
>Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 individual
>blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a single
>massive attack.
>
>
That and the fact getting 40-50 of these together in one place or even 
the effort of getting them together would a) prolly be noticed and b) 
bring the wrath of the Israeli Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines (do they 
have marines?) Mossad and probably even the boy scouts down on their 
heads...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:32:11 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <DOIDNCCBJNFDHBAA@angelfire.com> <3C6C0B98.1090204@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <fc.00870b2f01020b953b9aca000c80fc98.1020bbf@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6CE3AB.6090206@gmx.net>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I was thinking of being trapped in Jspace with a crazed monkey. Talk about a
>week's worth of hell
>
>TV
>
Weeelllll....If it misbehaves you may havve to spank it.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 10:42:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:42:26 +1100
Subject: [TML] Totally OT: Australia Moves to the North Atlantic
References: <OF980015FF.0716B650-ONCA256B61.00013887@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3C6CE612.70809@gmx.net>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

>Dear Folks -
>
>Apparently we're a lot nearer to you all (except Rupert, Frank, and Andrew 
>M-V) today:
>        http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/australia.shtml
>
>Funny, I haven't noticed any difference. I guess that's because Canberra 
>is even more ignored than the rest of the country...  ;-)
>
With what the PM is Up To this may change in a real hurry...I can hear 
the distant baying of the houn^D^D^D^D press.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 13:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gary Miles)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:38:36
Subject: [TML] Ship's Monkey
Message-ID: <F47QWXABScwifWj4hjx00018e3c@hotmail.com>


>From: Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>

>
>Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts
>on what the role of a ship's monkey might be. I was also wondering if
>anyone
>could think of some plot uses for said monkey.<
>
>I've read alot of ideas about how to get rid of the monkey, but it seems to
>me that the players have done the GM a big favor!
>
>It's like they just bought 10 points worth of Common Sense.
>
>1. Dont' want them to go somewhere dangerous?  The monkey hoots and hollars
>and goes apefits whenever they go that direction.
>2. Want the players to go somewhere? Curious george just has to wander over
>there.
>3. Want the players to trust someone they're suspicous of? If the monkey
>likes them they must be good!
>4. Want to show how bad a villian is? Monkey gets kidnapped!
>5. Want them to avoid a combat? Monkey unclips their power pack - he's
>michevious that way.
>6. Want them to misjump? Monkey starts pressing buttons.
>7. Want them to break into somewhere and the players haven't got a clue?
>Monkey steals an access card.
>
>I think you get the idea.
>

Two words: "Bad dates..."

Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...88


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 14:57:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202142040_MC3-F205-D84C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0202150855490.25699-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor wrote:
> The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
> use the simple system and this will never come up. 

I imagine it would come up pretty often if they're in the same group.
I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.

	Gregory Kettler
	Grr! Geek yet LOTR.

"There will be a general shift in emphasis (of sequence analysis
especially) from genes themselves to gene products.  This will lead to
fewer DNA double-helices in bad sci-fi movies."
	-- http://bioinformatics.org/faq/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>

Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:24:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE0E@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite esque
trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of land
non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.<

What is the "frontier" universe? 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:42:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215104124.00a7b8a8@urbin.net>

Gearhead websites.

At 10:24 AM 2/15/2002 -0500, Michael Taylor wrote:
>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:34:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:34:49
Subject: [TML] Re: Uniforms
Message-ID: <F144CXPIxkcY4lX0hyi00019919@hotmail.com>

Most ex-military of all varieties have worn some uniform items (fatigue 
jackets, camouflage pants, parkas, etc.) after leaving the service whether 
it was authorized or not. While I was in the AF, they began issuing a light 
jacket that could be worn with insignia with the uniform or with civilian 
clothing without the insignia. Saved carrying two jackets on TDYs. IMTU, you 
can often recognize a vet in a bar because is wearing an old military jacket 
that is no longer current issue. If you know your uniforms, you can tell 
what service and what era he served in. It is an automatic introduction if 
your service time overlapped his.

Some of the medals I received came with a miniture pin version of the ribbon 
for wearing on civilian clothing, but I've never seen them worn.

John L.
"And he's talking with Davy, who's still in the Navy
And probably will be for life" Piano Man, Billy Joel


>From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>Thanks for the post, which I think will be useful for a lot of games out
>there.  The quoted U.S. policy covered retirees, but did not mention prior
>service who are not retirees (most of the former military).  In Traveller
>terms, leaving the service with less than 5 terms.  Anyone know the policy
>on that?
>
>Also, I'm pretty sure that wearing of medals and ribbons is authorized the
>rest of your life with civilian clothing, regardless.  Certainly it's a
>common practice in patriotic parades and the like.  Anyone able to shed
>more light on that one?  IMTU, this is authorized by most governments and a
>very popular practice.
>
>--Laning
>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:55:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:55:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <200202151553.g1FFrvQ02188@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>Subject: Re: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
...
>ObTrav:  al Q... um, Ine Givar, anyone?

  What have you got against freedom fighters? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:00:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE11@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D3089.59445A40@sitraka.com>

Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I recall a good drawing of battledress in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'.
They had some good stuff. Also, DGP's '101 Vehicles'
has a drawing for most every vehicle and there's plenty of military 
ones.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:05:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <3C6C527E.A5B75BBC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D31C8.3060208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:

> Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
> nourished).
> 
> http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html
> 
> For a more detailed look at the development of this concept:
> 
> http://www.monkeybagel.com/shit.html

Ohhh.....my.....ghodd.....my keyboard..it's, it's GONE man!

It just vanished when the coffee hit it....how will I get the blast 
marks off the wall...and I need new sinuses, too...

see: http://www.monkeybagel.com/pumas.html

A quote:

"We've all heard the "herding cats" analogy with regard to managing 
programmers. Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang of 
neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty smack habits and 
opposable thumbs."

Those have GOT to be FS bikes, too!
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 15:58:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:58:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
Message-ID: <3C6D3031.1020404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Sort of OT but we've discussed this and it has clear Trav implications.

We were discussing reporters and how they misreport stories because of 
their ignorance...

Background: There is a leukemia cluster, possibly, in Sierra Vista AZ, 
which is home to an Army base and an Airstrip with lots of flights (Ft. 
Huachuca is a big Army comms/intel training base, as well as one home 
base for the RPV fleet, lots of big jet transports in and out).

Some suspicion has fallen on pollution from jet fuel (probably not that 
important in my opinion, since there are a LOT higher exposures 
elsewhere without corresponding cancer clusters, and the designation of 
it as a 'cluster' is really iffy, as it just barely reaches the required 
number of cases).

The reporter quotes a UA researcher as saying "We don't know for sure 
whether jet fuel ccauses cancer in humans, but we do know it does in mice."

Which is wrong, and prompted the following letter to the editor from the 
  scientist who was interviewed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Letters
Professor says he was misquoted

Carla McClain's article, "Jet fuel studied in Sierra Vista," that 
appeared in the Jan. 26 Star, contained a misquote of my statements 
during an open meeting held in Sierra Vista on Jan. 20. McClain quotes 
me as stating, "We cannot prove that exposure to jet-fuel particulates 
will induce cancer in humans, but we know it does in animals."

In the meeting, I stated, "Exposure to jet fuel particulates in mice 
will cause a doubling of DNA micronuclei in both bone marrow and 
peripheral white blood cells, as well as an increase in mouse melanoma 
B16 tumors after we induce the cancer in the mice with injection of B16 
cells in the mouse tail vein."

I realize that these are complex scientific issues; however, I believe 
that Ms. McClain and the Arizona Daily Star need to be as accurate as 
possible when reporting these issues to the public.

Mark L. Witten

Research professor and director of the Joan B. and Donald R. Diamond 
Lung Injury Laboratory at the University of Arizona College of Medicine

Editor's note: The disputed quote matched the reporter's notes of the 
meeting."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why of course, EVERYONE knows that if something increases melanoma after 
B16 tumors are induced by injecting b16 cells it's not causing cancer, 
right?

As it stands, I do, but I worked as a researcher in carcinogenesis 
studies for many years. Would the average reporter be able to suss this 
out, especially in the context of an public meeting with lots of people 
talking?

Would *you*?

The researcher still hasn't got a clue that he's going way over the 
heads of 99.99% of his audience.

Maybe the reporter called that APC a tank because when they asked what 
it was, they were told 'Oh , that's a M-143 A slash 45B command variant 
Burchard with a one-oh-five mount and the coax fifties!"

And they wrote, "uuuh, tank"

What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer, 
to *help* cause it to happen'

...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think 
jet fuel particlates do.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:19:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:19:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD1@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Depends.  What are you looking for?  Specifically Traveller, or is mixed genre
for data mining okay?  Tod Glen has a bunch of Traveller arsenal stuff, mostly
current or near future tech level from what I remember, and there's a ton of
different genre stuff out there on the web.  I've also got a couple of
handwaviums at:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/weapons.htm

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Taylor [mailto:MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 7:24 AM
To: Traveller Mailing List
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:25:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Henry [mailto:ethan.henry@sitraka.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:00 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


Michael Taylor wrote:
> 
> Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I recall a good drawing of battledress in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'.
They had some good stuff. Also, DGP's '101 Vehicles'
has a drawing for most every vehicle and there's plenty of military 
ones.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:22:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <20020215162257.A2C6123AC1@debian.voyager.net>

> Sorry for the rant.  Had to share this with someone.

No problem - I empathize (as best I can in my
nice warm cubicle...).  At least you've opened my eyes
a bit to what's going on there and what it's like.
(It's too easy to be sucked into the 'reality' they want
presented on TV.)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:45:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:45:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215114302.01b86020@mail.comcast.net>

At 02:49 PM 2/14/2002 -0800, John Snead wrote:
><SNIP>
>
>In DGP's Solomani & Aslan it's mentioned that the Solomani have
>done a while lot of uplift-related genetic engineering, including work
>on gibbons and orangutans (page 28).  It also mentioned that a
>number of the early versions were more intelligent than the natural
>form, but not fully sentient.
>
>You could have the money be a young sentient gibbon, or perhaps
>a full-grown sentient monkey that was developed as an off-shoot of
>this program.  For extra fun, the monkey might not be able to
>speak, but could sign quite well (likely none of the PCs known
>sign) and can type and use a computer.
>
>So, you could have the thing keep trying to get access to the
>computer to attempt to communicate, while the PCs (presumably if
>they have *any* sense at all) wish to keep a seemingly ordinary
>monkey from playing on their computer.
>
>For extra fun, if you can keep this going for a while, you could have
>a linguistic historian who knows sign as a passenger and have the
>monkey plead with this passenger to help free it from the people
>who have enslaved it and thwarted all of its efforts to communicate
>(ie the PCs)...

This could get scary quickly!  There could be a covert sentient monkey 
league or monkey liberation organization a la the Ine Givar (sp?), i.e.... 
dedicated to freeing geneered monkeys from human domination... Somebody 
else mentioned a week in JS hell - this could wind up being the *monkey* 
from hell, with an attitude, too!



Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net New Email Address!!!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:02:14 EST
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the many TU's
Message-ID: <5b.22ffb4d4.299e9916@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 22:34:53 GMT Standard Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:

SNIP
> > Set a standard for recreational and performance-enhancing drugs consistent
> > across all sports, not a separate set of rules for each - and enforce it
> > fairly across the board.
> 
> Heck--allow anything.  If a man runs faster than any other man in
> history because of chemistry, he's _still_ run faster than any other
> man in history.
> 
SNIP

Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns 
about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now 
capable of inserting functional genes into adults and sports will be one of 
the first places that widespread illicit use is seen. Look out for it first 
in endurance sports but muscle sports probably won't be far behind.

Also be on the lookout for a sudden jump in athlete deaths until we get the 
bugs ironed out. Unless the genetic engineering makes bugs of course and then 
we could all be in trouble...

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 16:48:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:48:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>

"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!

AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
and I'm still giggling.

"Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
your camel toe. Ouch."

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:13:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:13:43 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <73.1adf2543.299e9bc7@aol.com>

In a message dated 14/02/02 23:37:54 GMT Standard Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> > 
> > That's not just history - it's standard tactics for modern rocket 
> > batteries. Maybe it's just lucky there aren't any Soviet adivsors 
> > running round there anymore.
> 
> Yeah, but if your goals are not military it's quite possible that 40 
> individual
> blasts at unpredictable times and places cause more mental trauma than a 
> single
> massive attack.
> 

Agreed one of the key aspects of terrorist/freedom fighter* activity is the 
threat of repetition. It is important that the enemy (or at least their 
population) believe that they are always under threat. I am sure that Hamas 
would love to dump forty of these on one target but then they would then have 
to fire forty the next time as well or the perceived threat would start to 
fall.

Although this may be useful in the long run since it may allow smaller 
attacks to succeed it would not be good on the PR front, either with their 
home based supporters or with the "enemy".
 
Charles

*Delete according to taste

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:08:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:08:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Yeah, that *was* a bit off :)~  In the final version that saw print that got shrunk down a bit ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Henry [mailto:ethan.henry@sitraka.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm

I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!

AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
and I'm still giggling.

"Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
your camel toe. Ouch."

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:25:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <3C6C96D3.A5D7D1DF@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013793953.7543.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
> Tell me which details you find "insignificant."

Hm...as in, 'I wouldn't really need this information?'

> Statistics
> Tons: 100std ( SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic )
> Dimensions: 19.8m x 9.9m x 9.9m
Well, that's at least one more significant figure than I care about, or even
consider accurate.  20mx10mx10m would be better.
> Volume: 1400m3
I already know it's 100 dtons, why do I need cubic meters as well?
> Cargo: 4std (1 x Large cargo hatch; Cargo handler:1 x 5-tonne capacity)
> Mass (L/C): 665t/579t
Nope, don't need that info in most cases.
> Maintenance Points: 21
> Crew: 2/4
> Cost: 59.974 MCr
Call it 60 MCr.
> Tech Level: 15
> Size: 8
> 
> Electronics
> Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3xFltComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86).
> 3xFibComp
Well, I definately don't need the CM/CP figures, since all they do is adjust
the crew and maintenance requirements, which are already listed.
> (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No
> bridge.
> Communications: 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 4xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
> Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 1xLIDAR
> (14.5
> [500kkm], 0.5MW).
> Survey/Science:
Not much use to columns for stuff that isn't listed, is there?  I'd put any
science sensors under 'sensors'.
> ECM:
> Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-1 (-1 at 50MW, -1.5 at 8MW), Act:-0.5, Neu:-2,
> Grav:0 (Chameleon coating, Basic IR masking, 1 level Stealth, Neutrino
> masking)
I'd probably drop the alternate IR signature.
> 
> Performance
> 3 Jump (10std/pc fuel)
> 2/2.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:32MW)
> 1/1.1 Contra-grav (11MW)
> 3488kph/3590kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2616kph/2693kph)
> 2 Power (/Fus:83MW,1yr )
Not clearly necessary, though it probably rises naturally from simple design.
> 0 Battery
> 30.6 Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:12.8,1MW)
> 4/2/1 Accomodations (Small staterooms/Large staterooms/Emergency Low
> berth)
This could probably be better stated.
> 108  Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good food/Storage) (18 weeks of Good
> rations for six crew)
Drop the food listing (and the food, actually); food is cargo.
> 2 G-Comp
> 1 Sandcaster (AV:97 /Cans:20)
> 10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure
> 
> Weaponry
> 1 x 20-Mj Triple-mount X-ray Laser turret with MFD (+6) 1/2-2-2-2
> [3,200/11-11-11-11] (LR) (Point Defense RoF: 800)
> 
> Features
> 1xAirlock
> 1xDecontamination Airlock
> 1xDocking Umbilical
> 3xShip's locker (0.05std ea.)
> 1xArmory (0.21std ea.) (Capacity: 6)
> 1xGym (2.5std ea.)
> 1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:12)
Seems likely to be subsumed under other systems.  True, actually, of several
components.
> 
> Small Craft
> 1xMinHgr (4std, 1 hatches)
Do we really need to know the number of hatches?
> 
> Backups
Aiii!  Definately to be dumped, just include some level of backups in all
higher-powered electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:21:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215114302.01b86020@mail.comcast.net>
References: <E16bUg7-0002TZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215120713.00a92ac8@urbin.net>

Well, there is the Solomani Monkey Liberation Front, then there is the 
Monkey Liberation Front of Solomani, and the Solomani Liberation Front for 
Monkeys, but those are just a bunch of splitters...

At 11:45 AM 2/15/2002 -0500, Bill Rutherford wrote:
[snip]
>This could get scary quickly!  There could be a covert sentient monkey 
>league or monkey liberation organization a la the Ine Givar (sp?), i.e.... 
>dedicated to freeing geneered monkeys from human domination... Somebody 
>else mentioned a week in JS hell - this could wind up being the *monkey* 
>from hell, with an attitude, too!

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 17:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:43:50 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F138YtdSHYwHnx9FMAt0001a1d4@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>

     "...as a professional referee for the sport of Paintball, judging can 
be a real pain."


Mr. Stasica,

     Professional paintball matches?  Details, man, details!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:21:04 +0000
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <F211nVruILkBEVTWUKI0001c377@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of
thing."


Mr. Berry,

     Any activity that relies exclusively on the subjective opinions of 
officials and judges as the only way to score is not a sport.

     "In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off
the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking
anything, you have to do it with GRACE, STYLE, and in TIME TO YOUR MUSIC." 
(emphasis mine)

     So, artistic presentation figures in the scoring system?  That's not a 
sport.

     "The bar has been raised.. what was the standard for winning the 100 
meters in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.  
In this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the 
edge."

     No.  All you have do to is best your competitors at the time the event 
is held.  Every gold medal sporting competition does not automatically 
result in a new world record.  You beat the people you're competing against 
and not the marks made in history or the continually changing, completely 
subjective standards of "artistic merit".
     All you need to do is jump higher or run faster and you win.  There are 
no officials judging your performance according to entirely subjective and 
completely nebulous "artistic standards".  Style, grace,
and performing in time with your music need not apply.

     "That's skiing.  This is figure skating."

     Yup.  The former is a sport and the latter isn't.

     "Part of the requirement is to do it with style and grace.  That is 
difficult in of itself."

     The standards of style and grace are entirely subjective at the time 
they are applied and by the people who apply them.  Running a course faster 
than the other fellow isn't.  A homerun is a homerun is a homerun.  Whether 
you hit onw gracefully or hit one looking like a sack of sh*t doesn't matter 
in the scorecard because baseball is a sport.
     I'm not saying that figure skating isn't difficult or that it doesn't 
require immense dedication and training on the participants part.  What I am 
saying is that it isn't a sport.  It is something BETTER than a sport, it's 
an artform.  Judging it, awarding prizes, choosing winners, all of that 
denigrates figure skating.  Those acts lowers it to the level of simple 
competition where it does not belong.
     Figure skating should be treated better than that.

     "Michael Jordan can let his tongue hang out and react when he misses a 
shot, but skaters have to keep smiling and not react, even when things go 
wrong.  I saw a girl at the National Finals fall twice in her routine.  She 
kept smiling until she finished, then broke down.  That takes heart."

     So, you're awarded points for aplomb?  What if she grimaced?  Would her 
score have been lower?  What if she landed a more complicated jump then her 
competitor, but grimaced as she did it?  Would her opponent, who didn't 
attempt the harder, actual athletic feat, but kept smiling, recieve more 
points and win?

     "Uh-huh.  Does it help if I mention that competitive figure skating has 
been going on for 150 years?  And we got rid of school forms as being a 
pointless artistic expression with no athletic merit?"

     Mere window dressing.  All artistic expressions are pointless in an 
athletic event.
     The event is openly judged on "artistic" merits.  Final scores are a 
mix of two catagories, technical presentation and artistical merit.  Any 
judgements or scores based on artistic merit do not belong in an athletic 
event.  Figure skating even paid lip service to that ideal by dropping the 
school forms, but it still uses "artistic standards" to choose winners.
     The fact that figure skating has been around for 150 years is entirely 
moot.  Sculpture has been around for millenia and it isn't an Olympic 
sporting event.

     "Pacific Bell Park, aka The Phone Booth, is great.  There isn't a bad 
seat in the place, and you are close enough to really get some good
heckling in, especially when the Dodgers (spit) come to town."

     Great knickname!  Too bad Strawberry wasn't still wearing Dodger 
blue...

     "We do get Anchor Steam beer on tap, and the best garlic fries in the 
nation.. and chinese food, sushi, kilbasa dogs, there's a couple of
Italian stands..."

     Oh boy, Anchor Steam... garlic fries... kielbasa...  The Whipsnade tum 
gurgles in delight.  We used to have Narragansett, a local brew, on tap at 
McCoy.  Then Shaefer bought the brewery and shut it down.  It was perhaps 
the best clam boiling beer ever made.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:21:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>DOUGLAS (m) "dark river" or "blood river" from Gaelic dubh "dark" and glais
>"water, river". Douglas was originally a river name, the site of a
>particularly bloody battle, which then became a Scottish surname. The
>surname belonged to a powerful line of Scottish earls.
>
>Very interesting site!

Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
English k-niggets.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:44:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>
>On a related note, there are some car parks here with a legally
>mandated speed limit of 5 km/hr!  The fine for exceeding the speed

One can violate that speed limit by running through the parking lot, too.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:44:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
>Obtrav: I imagine marines will always remain jarheads, although I don't
know if
>leatherneck would survive. But what are derogatory terms are space navy
sailors
>called. COAAC would get to be the zoomies, wingnuts, etc......

The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  Surely some
group will be called bubble heads for that type of helmet, etc.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:18:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD6@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Starport EVA maintenance crews come to mind...
Jesse



The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  Surely some
group will be called bubble heads for that type of helmet, etc.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <20020215193822.119.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

What if the monkey is a scam.  The PC's get about 5-10
minutes from Jump Space and somebody notices the
monkey is missing.

Turns out, the seller sells the monkey to unsuspecting
passers through and the monkey has been trained to
escape and make its way back to the seller.  So the
same monkey is sold over and over and over.

(Yes, it is an idea with some holes in it, but it is
an idea.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:37:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:37:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215193955.RZBX319.dorsey@link>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 at 20:40:42 -0500, Michael Taylor
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> typed:
<<<SNIP OF EARLIER QUOTES>>>
>All of this is true ONLY if you believe it's even logicallly POSSIBLE to
>have a complex and simple system be compatible! Since I don't think it's
>possible, then every GM will have to decide which system they are using.
>The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
>use the simple system and this will never come up. 

I am both.  Gearhead and role player.  Not sure where you fit people like
that in your schema.  :->

Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe it is
possible for a simple design system to be more or less a subset of the more
complex system.  I certainly haven't seen a logical proof that it's
impossible.

>
>>>>>> That;'s where I thought you'd go, but that's my point. The DAMAGE is
>>>>>> valuable information. But the BARREL LENGTH is not. 
>>>>>>>>>Oh? Tell that to someone who needs to know if the gun will *fit*
>>>>>>>>>somewhere. Or if he can hide it under his coat or the like.
>
>Okay. Someone who needs to know. 
>1. Yes you can 
>2. No you cannot. Gun's too big. You're not good enough to do it. Your
>clothes are too small. 
>3. Yes  you can if you make a Conceal roll at Difficult. 
>4. Yes you can but  you lose the use of one hand while your holding your
>clothes shut.
>5. No you can't, the people watching are pro's. 
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Barrel Lenght of the weapon
>or the the coat length of the player

I see both points of view.  And believe that referees should have the
freedom to choose their approaches.  Personally, I'm not quite enough of a
gearhead to want to design barrel length into every single weapon.
Especially knowing how hard it is to devise a weapon design system that
will produce such specific data that conforms well with real world physics.
 And I'm enough of a roleplayer that I don't want to see referees who don't
know that much about how weapon designs work being trusted to wing it and
devise the answer to the concealability question.  I have way too much
trouble in that department already, and have to spend lots of extra effort
working at willing suspension of disbelief.  That detracts quite a bit from
my game enjoyment.  One of my roleplaying friends has it much worse.  He
periodically quits our longest-running "Traveller" game because the
referee's comprehension of firearms is so dim that it just drives him crazy.


>
>>>>>>>Except that any detail design system that doesn't throw out physics
>is
>>>>>>>going to have to worry about surface area. And thus, the "simple"
>>>>>>>system needs to know as well, though not in as much detail. 
>
>Not at all. You dont have to 'throw out physics' to use *abstraction* (the
>processing of simplifying complexes processes by reducing it to only the
>factors you are interested in measuring). A simple system DOESNT need to
>know about surface area. It needs to know about weapon and equipmment
>limitations. That's abstraction. 

Again, both points of view seem to be at least partly valid.  Sometimes
(always, for some people) you really need to know surface area in order to
be able to decide what the in-game ramifications are of that surface area.
Some referees/players will be so extreme that they actually get their game
enjoyment from knowing that surface area and using it to help calculate how
long it will take their submerged starship to heat up the small lake it is
in and evaporate it completely away.  Don't ask me why that particular
example, maybe they're hiding underwater and want to know how long before
they're visible or maybe the nasty crocoids in the lake are troubling the
locals and this is the plan for ending the crocoid threat.  Most people
won't want to look up the physical constants involved or do the math
involved, much less get enjoyment from it, but their referee is the sort of
control freak who is refereeing partly because s/he gets to model the
entire universe in his/her own game and do this kind of thing.  Maybe the
referee is the sort who just makes up an answer that sounds good even
though they know nothing about the topic, and maybe this is fine with the
players or maybe some of the players know more about the physics and have a
really hard time swallowing the improvised answer.


So, the game rules that are ultimately published should try to make as many
as possible of the above sorts of people happy.  The most obvious approach
is a multitiered set of design rules.  Another approach that I think
somebody already mentioned is use the complex rules for everything, but
provide software (a prebuilt spreadsheet) so that a nongearhead can plug in
a few simple basic parameters (hull size, power plant size, price, etc.)
and the software cranks out all the answers to every question they ever
might have.  Just waiting to be looked up.  This requires a publisher who
is willing to make the leap that all customers have the capability to use
the software as part of their game.  I think that's a worthwhile leap.
Just include a CD inside the rule book.  CDs are cheap to distribute (lol,
just ask AOL).  If you want to include a "simple" system, a la QSDS, that
works without the software then perhaps just list about 50 or 60 standard
ship designs cranked out with the software.  The list should be part of the
basic rules.  Obviously, game expansions with lots more standard starships,
vehicles, etc. are possible in the future.

I'm relatively far into the gearhead end of the spectrum, compared to most
role-playing game players I know.  But FF&S has always been a turn off to
me.  At least partly due to how unwieldy it use to use until you've
developed intimate familiarity with the book.  It's mostly just tables,
packed together in whatever fashion will use the least paper.  But only
partly due to that, it's still a very complex system even if the "user
interface", if you will, were made beautiful.  Perhaps, I don't know but
perhaps, a lot of people besides the extreme gearheads would be amenable to
a system even as complex as that if we also had a CD of spreadsheets
included in the rules for doing our own ship and weapon and vehicle and so
on designs.  Caveat, the dang things had BETTER be bug free, or else you'll
ruin marketing for this product and any future ones.  I think Imperium
Games already proved that.


So, as long as gearheads get the flexibility and detail they want they are
happy.  And as long nongearheads can very quickly and easily just the
information they need and not fuss with the rest, they're happy.
Spreadsheets sound like a very likely solution.  I refuse to describe
gearheads and "roleplayers" as being at different ends of the same
spectrum.  They're completely different spectrums from each other really.
It may be possible that a 2-dimensional graph can be made for representing
player personality types.  The X axis showing degree of gearheadedness, and
the Y axis showing degree of roleplayerness.  I've seen some people who
score high on both, and some people who score very low on both but still
really like playing role-playing games.  Not sure if there are other
important components of player personality types that should be graphed;
maybe it needs to be a 3-dimensional graph, or more dimensions than that.
You can pretty well use Richard Bartle's graph for describing types of MUD
players with face-to-face gamers also, and that's two additional dimensions
right there.  How gearheady of me to go on like this, lol.

>
>>>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
>>>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and how
>>>>>>>easy to see it is.
>
>No it wont. Same answer as before:
>1. Yes you can see it and shoot at it. 
>2. No you can't. Ship's too small, sensors aren't acurate enough.
>Trees/Magentic storm get in the way. 
>3. Yes you can if you make a Targeting roll at Difficult. 
>4. Yes you can but you lose the benefit of a forward observer. 
>5. No you can't, the ship is too low to the ground. 
>6. etc., etc., etc. NONE of which REQUIRE the Surface Area for any GM to
>rule on this.

Again, depends on the player personality type of the referee whether they
need the gearhead detail to answer this.  And the other players in the game
will also vary on how much gearheading they want in the answers.

>
>>>>>>>"Fully compatible" means that ships designed with the simple system
>are
>>>>>>>still legal under the detailed system. And they generally aren't
>>>>>>>grossly inferior to stuff made with the detailed system.
>
>How's that working out for you? Anything so far? I didn't think so....
>
>>>>>>> We may be talking about semantics here, but  I got the impression
>that we
>>>>>>> were talking about designing the simple system using everything in
>the
>>>>>>> complex system! Seems unlikely to work to me....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not? 
>
>Because it's not logically possible. Abstraction says that you ONLY want to
>measure certain factors. The complex system says you want to measure MOST
>factors (remember that we're one step away from real-life engineering).
>

>So you can't keep *MOST* factors and ALSO keep ONLY some factors. In other
>words, you can't "simplify" 100 by making it 10. You wont get simpler,
>you'll just get 'smaller' numbers, but you'll have just as many. 

Not sure I follow your point here.  What I think you're saying is a
gearhead system, by definition, involves lots of factors.  The simple
system, by definition, involves very few factors.

If that's what you're saying, then I immediately have a few issues to think
about.  Who decides how many is a lot and how many is a few?  If it's just
a quantitative difference in number of factors, then how does the line
between complex and simple get drawn?  Where does it get drawn?  Is this
line subjective, and varies depending on the player?  Maybe the line always
get drawn the same place for everybody?  If it's only a quantitative
difference in measuring number of factors, can we still claim that there is
an essential and **qualitative** difference between "simple" design system
and "complex" design system?  Sorry that I have more questions than answers
with this.  Although I know what my intuitive answers are for these
questions, I don't know that there will be widespread agreement and don't
see a way to devise definitive proofs.

As for ways to simplify "100", I think what we really want to do is not
simplify the value 100, but simplify the formula so that you don't need to
worry about that particular value.  There are ways to do this in a lot of
situations.  Here's an example I'm thinking of.  As was already noted,
number of personnel to staff a ship tends to correlate pretty closely to
ship displacement and weapons carried and tech level.  If you're already
calculating those three things anyway, then your simple system doesn't need
to ask you to calculate exact ship personnel requirements.  As long as a
rough approximation works for the players and referee, that's good enough
and the simple system can spit that out for you after the rest of the ship
is designed.  The rough approximation will be way out of whack for
extremely small or extremely large ships, and for ships with unusual
designs.  So your simple ship design system should intentionally leave out
the ability to do unusual designs and very large or small ships.

>
>>>>>>> The idea is that the modules in the simple system get designed using
>>>>>>> the detailed system. that makes *sure* they are legal. It also means
>>>>>>> that folks can design modules to be used in the simple system that
>>>>>>> weren't part of the original list.
>
>Good luck to you there! Let me know when  you wrap that up and make it
>available to the public! ;)
>
Someone well practiced with mathematics probably won't have a difficult
time doing this.  Most of us have long since forgotten, or never even took,
the math courses where you learn this level of mathematics.  So, yeah to us
it seems a daunting challenge to attempt.  We just need some game designers
to step forward who are well versed with somewhat higher math.  I'm not
talking Einstein, either.  Heck, I had all the math training probably
needed for this by 12th grade.  But it's all forgotten due to disuse and
other reasons.

>>>>>>>Most of the "extra" details will not apply in the simple system. But

>>>>>>>they'll be there if they are ever needed.
>
>I think that's a logical falacy. The Gearhead system doesn't have "extra"
>details. The Gearheads think all the systems are useful and important. The
>GM can't rule on the game without knowing these details. 
>
>The Roleplaying system doesn't leave out "extras". It leaves out
>"insignificant" details. They aren't important to the game. The GM will
>ignore them. 

If I understand you correctly, then we agree on this.  Gearheads
**require** more details to be happy with their game, nongearheads are
content with ignoring the less important-seeming details and wild
approximations of other details.  Just so long as somebody makes up some
kind of answer, let's get back to the action.

>
>>>>>>>Consider this, if the ship is a sphere, the number of turrets you can
>>>>>>>mount will be a lot less than if it's a flat "block" of the same
>volume
>>>>>>>(ie "same tonnage").
>>>>>>>Sooner or later something like that *will* jump out and bite you.
>
>No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with that. Make
>it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
>incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into account. 

Hmmm.  I think sooner or later it will.  But how long it will take will
depends on how many ships you design in your lifetime.  How much it bothers
you depends on precisely where your personality type falls on the gearhead
spectrum.  And, you may be a type who recovers quickly from this by just
saying "Oops, guys, I made a mistake on the number of turrets and now I'm
going to say it has 5 instead of 50," with nobody in **your** game being
bothered by this.


So, technically yes it will bite you sooner or later.  Whether you care or
not is a different issue.

>
>>>>>>>Limiting turrets by tonnage only matches reality (hell only matches
>>>>>>>*common sense*) if you don't have very many. Any time someone starts
>>>>>>>trying to push the envelope, it'll get ugly. Somebody will want to
>know
>>>>>>>*where* on the ship the turrets are. And how big they are (ie how
>much
>>>>>>>surface area they cover).
>
>And someone always wants to know if their Arm Strength is greater than
>their Leg Strength. Does your Traveller game have different stats for Arm
>Strenght and Leg Strength? No! Because it's not that important to the game.
>
>
>The Traveller system isn't a "Simpler" version of the Multiple Limb
>Strength system. It's a simple system that completely *ignores* multiple
>limb strength. 

Yes, very true.  Each published game makes its own design choices, and we
buy the ones that suit us.  Some referees then add to or modify the
existing rules to suit themselves.  Possibly because they just like doing
that sort of thing.  Possibly because they're driven to it because some
aspect of the published rules just detracts from the willing suspension of
disbelief that is necessary for their fun to continue.  Somewhere, some
Traveller player is really being bothered by the lack of a canonical
multiple limb strength system.  Somewhere else, some Traveller player never
even bothers to use the Strength attribute in her/his games.  It's easy to
recognize the difference between these two players, because they are at
extreme ends of the spectrum.  The awkward task for the original game
designer is choosing how to make the game appeal to the part of the
spectrum that they want to appeal to.

>
>>>>>>>And either will have the players wanting changes. Or an explanation.
>
>Boo hoo - you can't sqeeze more weapons into the ship than my design system
>ALLOWs  you do. Same with High Guard. Same with FF&S, same with having
>Special Arm Strength. If the rules allow it - fine. If the GM is using
>rules that DONT allow it. Too bad. 
>
>The explantion. I'm the GM and I only want to use this design system. The
>other stuff matters/doesn't matter in my game. 

Exactly.  To each his own.  When a group of players sits down with one of
them as the referee, a kind of social contract is entered into wherein
everyone agrees that the referee's preferences are the final arbiters of
what the rules are.  Although I've seen some groups who don't realize this,
becoming contests between which player can out-rules-lawyer everyone else,
with the referee fighting to keep up.

>
>> Anyway, while I certainly support the continued existance of gearheads I
>> dont think that Traveller ship design systems should require them, that's
>> all. 
>
>>>>>>>But they *do* have to allow "gearhead" designs and "simple" ones to
>>>>>>>coexist in the same universe.
>
>No they dont. You can have your SCOUT ship in  your universe and I can have
>my SCOUT ship in my Traveller universe and they can be built with different

>systems but working in the same universe. Both will be recognizable as
>"Scout" ships, but I don't have to allow your Scout ship built with GURPS
>Traveller into my MegaTraveller game. 

Well I agree with you, but only technically.  If someone wants to publish a
set of rules that make you and only you happy, they're welcome to.  It
probably is a smart career move on the designer's and publisher's parts if
they try to make lots of other buyers happy besides just you, though.  And
of course, as you say, it's a dumb career move for them to try to actually
make GT and MT ship designs work in the same rule system, thinking that
would make the greatest number of buyers happy.

A good set of rules will allow both gearhead and simple to coexist and be
compatible.  A good set of rules will also do other things to make people
happy, which are unrelated to this.  Being all inclusive is not the sole
criterium for judging a set of rules.  Therefore, it is not necessarily
true that more inclusive equals better rules.

>
>It's the fact that they *couldn't* that led to the stuff that you want
>to do away with.

I think he doesn't want to "do away with" anything.  Perhaps, in the heat
of debate, feelings of protectiveness are rising high, here.  Or maybe I'm
laying too much emphasis on this.  :->  I think the only significant
difference between the parties in this debate right now is whether it is
possible for complex, gearhead design systems to coexist in the same rules
with simple, nongearhead systems.  You say no, he says yes.  If either of
you can prove or demonstrate your point to the other, the debate on that
should be settled.  Or you may want to agree to disagree, who's to say?

>
>>>>>>>*Neither* is acceptable unless you ban one system or the other in
>your unioverse.
>>>>>>>And banning the detailed system rather limits the available
>designs/ships.
>
>Of course! The GM should ban systems he doesn't want in his universe! 

>
>No Traveller GM I know of allows characters to be built with CT,
>MegaTraveller, GURPS Traveller or TNE. The GM *has* to pick and choose
>systems.

I agree, each referee should ban whatever they choose.  :->

Actually, I know at least one referee who would allow any of those
characters into his "Traveller" game.  He'd just make a few minor tweaks to
them, done in his head and guided by no particular rule system.  But that
really just supports what you're saying.

>
>I'm just asking for one more choice!

You lost me there.  I thought you have been saying that the gearheads are
asking for more choice, but you think an excess of choice is unworkable?
(i.e., you think it is impossible to write rules that include both the
gearhead and the simple choices?)

--Laning, putting on asbestos clothing
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 19:52:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:52:40 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <93.1833bd42.299ec108@aol.com>

In a message dated 15/02/02 04:13:13 GMT Standard Time, grote1731@hotmail.com 
writes:


> ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals" agreement 
> 
> with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal" with the 
> Imperium about the nobility?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 

I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it came to 
the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the Queen's 
Uncle) I think they simply knew what a public relations disaster it would be 
if they blew up Brenda.The Royals don't make policy so attacking them would 
have been purely a propaganda gesture - one that probably wouldn't have gone 
down well in certain parts of the world responsible for large amounts of PIRA 
fundraising.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:04:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
Message-ID: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

In continuing on trying to define "Normalcy" in
Traveller, we come to the second Characteristic
generated, Dexterity.  Here is the info and the
chart(s).  (Again, this is simply for discussion
purposes only.)

Paul


Dexterity:  There are two main areas that comprise
dexterity, physical contortion and manual dexterity. 
Physical contortion is how flexible the character's
body is.  Manual dexterity is the ability of the
character to use his fingers (toes? tail?) to
manipulate small objects.  These two areas are not
necessarily related, and may belong in two separate
variables, but for simplicity are both contained in
Dexterity.  Physical contortion will typically peak
between the ages of 10 and 15.  Individuals with high
Dexterity (10+) will experience little or no reduction
before aging effects.  Individuals with moderate or
low dexterity will see a drop in Dexterity between the
ages 15 and 18.  The drop will tend to be
proportionate to the final dexterity level.  Manual
Dexterity will tend to increase until age 18 and
sometimes beyond.

Dexterity Comparison Chart:
Val  Physical Contortion
 0   "He's a stiff, literally"
 1   Infant.
 2   "I can barely reach my belt to buckle it."
 3   "I can't touch my shoes, much less tie them."
 4   "Shoes, barely.  Toes, nope."
 5   "I can't dance."
 6   "I won't step on your feet, much."
 7   Good Dancer.
 8   Professional Dancer.
 9   Skilled Gymnast.
 A   Olympic Gymnast Competitor.
 B   Olympic Gymnast Champion.
 C   Circus Side-show Contortion.
 D   Jump "Rope" Through Clasped Hands.
 E   Jelly for joints.
 F   "Watch me slip into this Coke bottle."

Val  Manual Dexterity
 0   Nubs.
 1   Can't grasp anything.
 2   Can't grasp anything smaller than a basketball.
 3   Can't grasp anything smaller than a coffee mug.
 4   All Thumbs.
 5   Can use safety razor without injury
 6   Can Type 20-30 WPM.
 7   Can use strait razor without injury.
 8   Surgeon.
 9   Manually repair watches & electronics.
 A   Brain Surgeon by hand.
 B   Infant Surgeon by hand.
 C   Infant Brain Surgeon by hand.
 D   Third Trimester Fetal Surgeon by hand.
 E   Second Trimester Fetal Surgeon by hand.
 F   "Watch me manipulate this atom by hand."




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>Does anyone know any official (or eve unofficial) work
>done on any languages in Traveller?  I know there are
>a few references to words and their translations.  If
>anyone has any information on grammer, sentence
>structure, etc, I would definitely be interested in
>discussing it.  Also, if there are any official
>references to Vargr lexicon, I'd appreciate that info
>as well.  If you can send it off the list as I don't
>know that the raw data and discussion would be good
>for bandwidth.  I have some ideas and I'm trying to
>formulate them into something presentable, but I don't
>want to redo work that has already been done.

The basic sources are the Alien Module on the Vargr (AM3, I think) and
Digest Group Publications' book Vilani and Vargr.  They both have some
discussion of various Vargr languages.  The most common Vargr language in
use near Imperial space is called Gvegh.  There is a word generation table
in the Alien Module.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:40 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>
>Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns
>about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now

New York Times, June 20, 2024:

Lhasa, Tibet:  Bob Foster, once an ordinary varsity wrestler from Oklahoma,
will be making Olympic judo history, now that the International Olympic
Committee has reversed its decision banning genetically enhanced athletes.
Customized new genes have changed Bob from a smiling farm kid to a gigantic,
hard-shelled, clawed and tailed, snarling behemoth, something reminiscent of
the last century's famous movie series called "Aliens".

That's on the outside, at least.  Inside, Bob says, "I'm still just me.  I
like driving in the country, fishing with my buddies, and country swing
dancing."

Most of the other judo athletes express confidence that they will take down
the new contender, who comes to his first Olympics after a string of
successes on the international judo circuit.  "Freak shows come and go,"
noted Jae Kunowara, coach of JudoJapan.  "We've been doing judo a long time,
and we'll keep doing it the same way."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:16:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:16:38 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Uniforms
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKDCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
>
>Some of the medals I received came with a miniture pin version of the
ribbon
>for wearing on civilian clothing, but I've never seen them worn.

My old friend Col. Steven R. Corbett, USA, refers to these as "what you wear
on your Sunday-go-to-meetin' suit."  I've never seen him wear them,
either -- but then, I don't think I've seen him in a Sunday-go-to-meetin'
suit in over 20 years.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:29:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:29:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
In-Reply-To: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:

> Dexterity:  There are two main areas that comprise
> dexterity, physical contortion and manual dexterity. 

Actually, there's at least four.  In addition to your list, we have:
reaction time/reflexes/speed (in games, mostly relevant to dodging and
snapshots)
hand/eye coordination (may be redundant with manual dexterity; in games,
important for use of weapons)
balance/agility (whole-body dexterity; covers most of what you list as physical
contortion).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:01:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:01:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Ancient Engineers
In-Reply-To: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020215210349.SLNU319.dorsey@link>

I enthusiastically second Mr. Whipsnade's nomination!  Go to LKW's Web site
and follow his link to Amazon to buy it, if you can.  The book is not just
grand in its own right, but also a terrific source of ideas to use as seeds
or outright copy for stuff in your own Traveller game.

Less exciting and fun, considered more scholarly, there's also "Engineering
In the Ancient World" by ...ahhh I'm too lazy to go upstairs and get it
from my bedstand and read the author's name.  The title is unique enough
that you should be able to locate it.  Some math required.

--Laning
Mechanical engineers build weapons, Civil engineers build targets.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+

>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:31:24 +0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Different Tech Paths (was: Earth's economy...)
>
<<<SNIP>>>
>     L. Sprague de Camp's "Ancient Engineers", a book I heartily recommend 
>to everyone, describes all of this far better than I could.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:48:11 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Language:  VARGR
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD8@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

There's also an online version here:
http://www.glisten.demon.co.uk/
which I mirrored on my site:
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/reference/

Jesse



The basic sources are the Alien Module on the Vargr (AM3, I think) and
Digest Group Publications' book Vilani and Vargr.  They both have some
discussion of various Vargr languages.  The most common Vargr language in
use near Imperial space is called Gvegh.  There is a word generation table
in the Alien Module.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:35:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg

The artist is David Mattingly

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:40:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:40:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>

Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
brain.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>

If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your browser at
www.cameltoe.com
Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.

Ethan Henry wrote:

> "DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> >
> > Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm
>
> I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
> very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!
>
> AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
> and I'm still giggling.
>
> "Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
> your camel toe. Ouch."
>
> Ethan

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
So when George Bailey got his life back and the normal universe was
restored, what happened to those angels who got their wings when the
bar cash register rang in the alternate universe in which George was
never born?
-Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:55:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:55:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com> <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D83B5.86C00EB2@sitraka.com>

alan spik wrote:
> 
> If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your browser at
> www.cameltoe.com
> Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.

Sadly enough, without even opening my browser I know that it's .org
and not .com. The haikus are rather funny though.

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:57:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215165345.00ac1da0@urbin.net>

Very nice.  Vargr, Aslan, flying things, shooting things...

All the ingredients for Fun in the Far Future!

Ok, Ok...I know that Kenji had a *different* list for the "raw, heady 
essence of interstellar civilization", but Traveller:D20 is supposed to ok 
for kids to play. :-)

At 04:35 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, Hunter Gordon wrote:

>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 21:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:40:10 +1100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bicycles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020216084010.A19421@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
[...5km/hr parking lot speed limit...]
> One can violate that speed limit by running through the parking lot, too.

In fact, one can exceed it by *walking* through the parking lot; but
pedestrians aren't operating vehicles and hence can't be fined.  Hmm
-- then again, I wonder if a shopping trolley counts as a vehicle?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:05:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:05:16 +1100
Subject: [TML] CharGen:  DEXTERITY
In-Reply-To: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020215200430.11765.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020216090516.B19421@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
>  7   Good Dancer.
>  8   Professional Dancer.
>  9   Skilled Gymnast.
>  A   Olympic Gymnast Competitor.

That seems like a *very* compressed range in the higher end.  Isn't 7
meant to be average?  Just +3 and we're talking about 1-in-a-million.
By D, we're going beyond what's possible for humans, and by F we're
talking about Star Trek shapeshifters who routinely violate the laws
of physics.


>  9   Manually repair watches & electronics.
>  A   Brain Surgeon by hand.

Well, I have a good picture of what sort of manual dexterity it takes
to repair a watch and electronics by hand (done that for both).  'A'
I'm not so sure about.  Does brain surgery take inordinate amounts of
general manual dexterity, or is it rather steady hands and a lot of
very specialised knowledge?


B-F give me absolutely no idea at all of what a character could do
with each dexterity level, or how common you'd expect them to be in
the population.  Maybe you're a surgeon and know what level of
dexterity would be required to do this sort of thing, but I think most
of us aren't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:19:12
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>

The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
body we know?

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:11:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:11:19 +1300
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
In-Reply-To: <3C6D3031.1020404@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6E3E57.24627.3F3710@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 8:58, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Letters Professor says he was misquoted
> 
> Carla McClain's article, "Jet fuel studied in Sierra Vista," that 
> appeared in the Jan. 26 Star, contained a misquote of my statements
> during an open meeting held in Sierra Vista on Jan. 20. McClain quotes
> me as stating, "We cannot prove that exposure to jet-fuel particulates
> will induce cancer in humans, but we know it does in animals."
> 
> In the meeting, I stated, "Exposure to jet fuel particulates in mice
> will cause a doubling of DNA micronuclei in both bone marrow and
> peripheral white blood cells, as well as an increase in mouse melanoma
> B16 tumors after we induce the cancer in the mice with injection of B16
> cells in the mouse tail vein."
> 
> I realize that these are complex scientific issues; however, I believe
> that Ms. McClain and the Arizona Daily Star need to be as accurate as
> possible when reporting these issues to the public.
> 
> Mark L. Witten
> 
> Research professor and director of the Joan B. and Donald R. Diamond
> Lung Injury Laboratory at the University of Arizona College of Medicine
> 
> Editor's note: The disputed quote matched the reporter's notes of the
> meeting."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
> cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer,
> to *help* cause it to happen'
> 
> ...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think
> jet fuel particlates do.

What I thought the actual statement meant was that the jet fuel 
particulates were aming already existing cancer worse.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:34:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

David Mattingly maybe?  :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:19 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
body we know?

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:39:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>

hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
illustration since their first CT appearance.

At 01:40 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <3C6D7F72.10801529@mindspring.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BD2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
 <3C6D3BDF.549A3C7A@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215174004.00ac4bd8@urbin.net>

Didn't work for me.  http://www.cameltoe.org/ did.

At 04:36 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, alan spik wrote:
>If asked I'll deny visiting the site. But you might want to point your 
>browser at
>www.cameltoe.com
>Its not pretty, but it is cameltoes.
>
>Ethan Henry wrote:
>
> > "DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> > >
> > > Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:
> > > 
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/battledress_survey.htm
> >
> > I hadn't seen the new render of the stoff for 'Ground Forces'...
> > very nice, Jesse. That's one heck of a cod piece on that thing though!
> >
> > AKA a "camel toe"... I just heard the term yesterday for the first time
> > and I'm still giggling.
> >
> > "Hey, Joe, looks like you took some shrapnel in your, um, uh...
> > your camel toe. Ouch."
> >
> > Ethan

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013813485.6966.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
> illustration since their first CT appearance.

Well, while most of them looked like a wolf head, they usually didn't look like
a direct paste of a photograph, which is what made me notice the problem.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:56:03 -0800
Subject: V&V illo?  RE: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

While the Vargr in the interior illos of V&V were crap (I REALLY wish Michael
Villardi [sp?] had done them), I thought the one on the cover was nice.  What
are everyone else's thoughts on that one?

Curious,
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin [mailto:urbin@bigfoot.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:39 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
illustration since their first CT appearance.

At 01:40 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on?  If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:24 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D93F8.F2843080@attbi.com>



Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr
> illustration since their first CT appearance.

So... your saying ALL VARGR look alike to you....

Speciest....
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:55:26 -0700
Subject: [TML] Reporters and the stories they mangle...another perspective...
References: <3C6E3E57.24627.3F3710@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6D91DE.5040807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> 
>>What Dr. Witten NEEDED to say was 'Well, it doesn't seem to cause 
>>cancer, but it looks like it can cause changes that can lead to cancer,
>>to *help* cause it to happen'
>>
>>...which would be perfectly accurate lay description of what we think
>>jet fuel particlates do.
>>
> 
> What I thought the actual statement meant was that the jet fuel 
> particulates were aming already existing cancer worse.
> 

Well, it does, sort of.

Which proves my point exactly. The treatment he describes, in which 
animals are 'infected' with melanoma cells, is a test for cancer 
promotion/progression. Melanoma cells are already very aggressive and 
this test kind of tests a number of things dealing with promotion or 
progression.

Carcinogenesis occurs in roughly 4 (or 5 if you count metastasis as a 
separate step) stages:

1) Initial injury. This is the actual genetic damage caused by proximate 
or ultimate carcinogens.

Jet fuel is NOT, afaik, an ultimate or proximate carcinogen. A proximate 
carcinogen is something like 1,6 dinitropyrene, a stable polycyclic 
aromatic hydrocarbon that is metabolized to 1-hydroxylamino6-nitropyrene 
the highly unstable ultimate carcinogen that binds to DNA causing the 
genetic damage that leads to cancer.

(Actual chemical names are dredged from memory and may not be perfectly 
accurate; it's been about 12 years since I worked with this stuff)

This, btw, is the easiest of things to test for, since it can usually be 
done in the test tube.

2) Promotion. This is the process of keeping that genetic damage in 
play, usually by blocking normal repair mechanisms either directly or by 
causing rapid normal cell division, which 'fixes' genetic damage in a 
cell line by causing it to divide before repair can take place.

Saccharin is 'carcinogen' like this. Saccharin is NOT a carcinogen, and 
in normal dosages is unlikely to cause any damage.

However in very high doses it causes rapid cell division (hyperplasia) 
in rat livers, and if a cell is damaged by a real carcinogen during this 
processs the damage is fixed and the cell line continues to reproduce.

3) Progression, which is the least understood step, and the one that may 
take decades between exposure to the carcinogen and clinical symptoms.

This is the process by which a damaged cell eventually becomes 
cancerous, that is, reproducing without the normal growth controls on 
cells.

There are a variety of substances that are considered to aid in this. 
Some may bind to sites on the cell where normal control hormones do. 
Some may interfere in the immune system making it harder to find and 
destroy the cancer cells. Some may interfere in the production of those 
hormones. Some may interfere in other ways we don't know yet.

Jet fuel particulates are one of them. Maybe. The test Dr. Witten 
describes indicates that it might be.

4) Clincal cancer...a rapidly growing mass of cells that do not respond 
to normal gropwth controls or contact inhibition as do normal cells. 
There's a lot of stuff that assists in this stage as well.

4a or 5) Metastasis,where bits and pieces break off of the intial tumor 
mass and are transported around the body where they start growing there.

Other than the first step, the boundaries between all of the above are 
quite hazy, and things that are promotors may also aid in pregression, etc.

Now, explain this in 10 minutes in a public meeting which probably has a 
vastly lower academic achievement level than this list and is full of 
people who think it's this stuff that's making them sick.

"uuuhhh it's a tank!"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:04:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:04:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>
References: <F149FSfRv7JoSMfMV860001a6bb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200202151804060412.8B609A9B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


I do believe that is the artist himself. David works up the 3d sketches, and then uses real models (himself in this case) to render the final piece.

Hunter

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 10:19 PM John Lambert wrote:

>The guy behind the Vargr looks like he came from an actual photograph. Any 
>body we know?
>
>>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>>
>>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 
>>core book.
>>
>>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>>
>>The artist is David Mattingly
>>
>>Hunter
>>
>>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:57:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:57:25 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!

BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
hits on the wall ;-)

regards,
Stephan

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]Im Auftrag von Hunter Gordon
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 22:35
> An: tml@travellercentral.com
> Betreff: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
>
>
>
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly
>
> Hunter
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 22:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:57:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013809256.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151757580893.8B5AFEFD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 1:40 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Does a vargr really look like a human with a dog's head pasted on? 

Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran wolves.

> If nothing
>else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a sentient
>brain.

Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient none-the-less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:17:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013815036.495.ajackson@ping>

Stephan Aspridis writes:
> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> 
> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> hits on the wall ;-)

Presumably, it's afterglow (or a targeting sight) since any weapons-grade beam
would be far brighter than that.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:08:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:08:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Aspridis [mailto:Anubis.5@web.de]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:57 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!

BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
hits on the wall ;-)

regards,
Stephan

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]Im Auftrag von Hunter Gordon
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 22:35
> An: tml@travellercentral.com
> Betreff: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
>
>
>
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly
>
> Hunter
>
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:15:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping> <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.
> 
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> 
> The artist is David Mattingly
> 
> Hunter
> 
> 

Nice.

<pickymode>

Hmmmm...

The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to 
low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.

This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less 
fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go 
along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some 
blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs 
some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look 
better.

The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the 
people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some 
work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.

The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to 
'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's 
all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the 
tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are 
identical. They need to have different patterns of light.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:10:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151757580893.8B5AFEFD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>

Hunter Gordon writes:
> Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
> resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
wolves. 

And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.

> > If nothing
> >else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a
> >sentient brain.
> 
> Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that
> would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger
brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient
none-the-less. 

The 50-100% increase in head size between 'wolf size' and 'human size' isn't
enough; the brain should be close to the size of a human brain.  It's not known
how intelligent neanderthals actually were, and they make up for the sloped
forehead with a distinctly enlarged hindskull.

Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:22:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:22:35 +0000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <F208GFKbM3d9wUP6Q1A0000f9e8@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it 
came to the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the 
Queen's Uncle)..."


Sir,

     Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter 
groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main 
movement.
     Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling themselves 
as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA" 
tried to keep up a bombing campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:24:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:24:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D93F8.F2843080@attbi.com>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215182353.00a768d0@urbin.net>

At 03:04 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Evyn MacDude wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr
> > illustration since their first CT appearance.
>So... your saying ALL VARGR look alike to you....
>Speciest....

At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:24:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>

Stephan Aspridis writes:
> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> 
> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> hits on the wall ;-)

Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
beams came from?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:35:37 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8934ba8a6a0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the 
>T20 core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly
>
>Hunter

It looked pretty good until I got to the people, esp. the Vargr...
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:11:28 -0800
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215150854.009fb970@mindspring.com>

At 10:21 AM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
>English k-niggets.

Sir, I will have you know that I come from a pleasing blend of English and 
Irish ancestry.  No genes French were involved in my manufacture.

Alas, my genetic heritage, coming from the Green and Pleasant Land and from 
the Northern Counties has left me with a curious handicap.  I continually 
to mail letter bombs to myself.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:46:52 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHAEEGCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

> Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
> Jesse
>
God forbids. Reminds me of when some players once got hold of a prototype
"crowd control device" and used it while trying to escape starport police:

P1 (pushes button and holds said device into general direction of the
pursuers): "Well?"
 (P2 to P5 all staring at him - bewildered)
P1: "What?"
P3 (takes a deep breath): "What? WHAT? See that?!? (points finger to the
smoldering ruins where once were a shopping mall, bureau of starport
security, said dozen starport police officers and about a hundred civilians)
What were you bloody thinking? You took out half the city including the
populace! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?"
P1 (looks into general direction of P3's finger): "To them? No need to.
Anymore, that is."

They found out that Famille Spofulam really has funny product codes, where
crowd has something to do with "many people (e.g. "mass")" and, well, we all
know Spofulam's definition of "control by applied force"...

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:33:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:33:33 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <F211nVruILkBEVTWUKI0001c377@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215151634.009f9760@mindspring.com>

At 06:21 PM 2/15/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>     "Any sport that has officials or judges is subject to this sort of
>thing."
>
>     Any activity that relies exclusively on the subjective opinions of 
> officials and judges as the only way to score is not a sport.
>
>     "In figure skating, you don't just have to do things like leap off
>the ice, spin three or four times in the air, and land without breaking
>anything, you have to do it with GRACE, STYLE, and in TIME TO YOUR MUSIC." 
>(emphasis mine)
>
>     So, artistic presentation figures in the scoring system?  That's not 
> a sport.

Gymnastics isn't a sport?  Or, for that matter, any sport with a referee 
monitoring the game.  Ask any Oakland Raider fan about subjective opinions 
of officials affecting the outcome of a game.  Do this from a distance.

>     "The bar has been raised.. what was the standard for winning the 100 
> meters in 1896?  1952?  2000?  You have to do more to bet your competitors.
>In this case, you have to jump higher, and have more control to get the edge."
>
>     No.  All you have do to is best your competitors at the time the 
> event is held.  Every gold medal sporting competition does not 
> automatically result in a new world record.  You beat the people you're 
> competing against and not the marks made in history or the continually 
> changing, completely subjective standards of "artistic merit".

So?  I've seen world-class track meets where everyone ran slow times for 
whatever reason.  All you have to do in baseball is beat the team at the 
time the game is held.  The trick is doing that enough times to reach the 
World Series.

>     All you need to do is jump higher or run faster and you win.  There 
> are no officials judging your performance according to entirely 
> subjective and completely nebulous "artistic standards".  Style, grace,
>and performing in time with your music need not apply.

Sorry, but you must not be a track and field fan.  There are judges 
watching every step of every race, waiting for any excuse to DQ an 
athelete.  Waving your arm into another lane, leaning to far forward in an 
attempt to break the plane of the finish, crossing too early in a distance 
race.. even lining up incorrectly in the starting blocks can cost you a race.

>     "Part of the requirement is to do it with style and grace.  That is 
> difficult in of itself."
>
>     The standards of style and grace are entirely subjective at the time 
> they are applied and by the people who apply them.  Running a course 
> faster than the other fellow isn't.  A homerun is a homerun is a 
> homerun.  Whether you hit onw gracefully or hit one looking like a sack 
> of sh*t doesn't matter in the scorecard because baseball is a sport.

LOL!  I've seen home runs turned into ground-rule doubles entirely because 
of the subjective opinion of the umpires!  This is why the NFL instituted 
instant reply reviews.. too many calls on the field were being called 
incorrectly, and costing teams games.

>     I'm not saying that figure skating isn't difficult or that it doesn't 
> require immense dedication and training on the participants part.  What I 
> am saying is that it isn't a sport.  It is something BETTER than a sport, 
> it's an artform.  Judging it, awarding prizes, choosing winners, all of 
> that denigrates figure skating.  Those acts lowers it to the level of 
> simple competition where it does not belong.
>     Figure skating should be treated better than that.

Figure skaters disagree.  I know some kids who are training to be future 
Olympians.  They train just as hard as future basketball or baseball 
stars.  They spend hours doing weight work, taking dance classes, and more 
hours on the rink just so that can have those few minutes on Olympic ice to 
show the entire world that they are the best.


>     "Michael Jordan can let his tongue hang out and react when he misses 
> a shot, but skaters have to keep smiling and not react, even when things 
> go wrong.  I saw a girl at the National Finals fall twice in her 
> routine.  She kept smiling until she finished, then broke down.  That 
> takes heart."
>
>     So, you're awarded points for aplomb?  What if she grimaced?  Would 
> her score have been lower?  What if she landed a more complicated jump 
> then her competitor, but grimaced as she did it?  Would her opponent, who 
> didn't attempt the harder, actual athletic feat, but kept smiling, 
> recieve more points and win?

She would have lost a tenth of a point in artistic merit.  The more 
complicated jump would have garned her more technical points, so she still 
would have ended up with a higher score.  It isn't 50/50.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:40:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:40:44 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815036.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215154017.009f6840@mindspring.com>

At 03:17 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Presumably, it's afterglow (or a targeting sight) since any weapons-grade beam
>would be far brighter than that.

Small plasma pistol?  Would explain the explosion.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:41:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:41:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
References: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020215173809.00a768d0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:39 PM -0500 2/15/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>hmmm...the Vargr looked, at least to me, like every other Vargr 
>illustration since their first CT appearance.

I've seen some good ones.  Though I can't say I've been thrilled with 
the ones in GT either.  (Though I would put them slightly ahead of 
this one).  The cover of the GDW Vargr Alien module wan't bad....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:46:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:46:53 +0100
Subject: AW: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHCEEGCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>

>
> Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small
> scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
> Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
> beams came from?
>
Famous last words? ;-)

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:52:00 -0800
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215154137.009fa6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:24 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> >
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
> > hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
>beams came from?

The phrase "L-shaped ambush" comes to mind.  They' probably dealing with 
attackers coming from two directions.

Y'know, looking at the entire picture, with the one woman caught in 
mid-leap into the G-carrier, I'm thinking that those two weapon bursts 
might not be so small.  We might be seeing the first instant of a larger 
plasma burst.  These two have a few fractions of a second to live.

And looking at the Vargr in total, he seems to be consistent with what has 
gone before.. look at the legs.  He has the extra joint and the long, 
digitgrade stance that we've seen before.  Canonically, Vargr have very 
human-like hands, they were designed this way so tools would be 
interchangable.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 23:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:58:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <010101c1b67c$a85dbd00$9532f7a5@pctframen>

My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give them
their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.

(Tongue seriously in cheek!)

Of course, just this sort of scenario was played out in the Whipsnade and
Ramen holovid, "The Road to Mithril," but that's another story...

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:11:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:11:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013818268.54.ajackson@ping>

Yet another observation:

There seems to be a 'boot heel' effect at the lower joint in the vargr's leg. I
don't think that should be there (actually, I think the boot should stop before
the lower joint; vargr probably wear boots going over the lower joint about as
often as humans wear boots going over the knee)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:22:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:22:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Hunter Gordon writes:
>> Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>> resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>wolves. 
>
>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.

No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.

>> > If nothing
>> >else, there should be a sizeably enlarged forehead to accomodate a
>> >sentient brain.
>> 
>> Why? Considering the overall increase in the body size to begin with, that
>> would include a cranium larger than a normal wolf's and allow for a larger
>brain size. Also look at the neaderthal. Very sloped forehead but sentient
>none-the-less. 
>
>The 50-100% increase in head size between 'wolf size' and 'human size' isn't
>enough; the brain should be close to the size of a human brain. It's not known
>how intelligent neanderthals actually were, and they make up for the sloped
>forehead with a distinctly enlarged hindskull.

Neaderthal brains were actually bigger than their human counterparts. Does that mean they were smarter? There are also animals with larger brains than humans. Does that make then sentient?

>Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
>dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.

Blame it on the ancients ;)

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:29:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <200202151929470995.8BAF0EEA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 4:15 PM Bruce Johnson wrote:

><pickymode>
>
>Hmmmm...
>
>The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to 
>low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.
>
>This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
>polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less 
>fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go 
>along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some 
>blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs 
>some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look 
>better.
>
>The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
>seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the 
>people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some 
>work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.

I think part of these problems stem from the fact that this is a JPEG taken from the original piece and resized to make it a bit more viewable over the net.

>The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to 
>'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's 
>all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the 
>tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are 
>identical. They need to have different patterns of light.

Heh, Marc made the same comment about the similarity of the towers. I meant to have them reduced in size but forgot. Looking at it now though I think they should stay. 

You are right though. I hadn't caught the symmetric lighting, but most of the upper portion of those towers will be covered by the book title.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:24:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:24:33 -0500
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200202151924330252.8BAA4174@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 3:24 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Stephan Aspridis writes:
>> Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
>> 
>> BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale meson
>> hits on the wall ;-)
>
>Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction the
>beams came from?

That's what imagination is for!

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:36:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1013819814.3145.ajackson@ping>

Hunter Gordon writes:
> 
> Neaderthal brains were actually bigger than their human counterparts. Does
> that mean they were smarter? There are also animals with larger brains than
humans. Does that make then sentient? 

They were marginally larger, but were lacking the forebrain which is apparently
extremely important for human sentience (which is, of course, a problem with
the dog head too).  The creatures with larger brains than humans are also
immensely larger creatures; there aren't any creatures with a brain to body
mass comparable to humans.
> 
> >Half of my problem is that the picture is _too_ good; it looks just like a
> >dog's head stuck on a human body.  A doglike head is fine.
> 
> Blame it on the ancients ;)

Nah, blame it on the artist.  Simply blurring the image to make it look a
little bit less like a regular dog's head would be sufficient to remove the
most irritating parts of the picture.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Feb 15 20:43:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:43:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
References: <200202151024_MC3-F221-CE0E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <010b01c1b681$0af74c20$d7d5883e@fabian>



> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >> I'm running an MT campaign whose premise is scholck Frontier/Elite
esque
> trading in the spinward marches. Simple so far. However, on a bit of
land
> non-coimmercial role-playing game set in that Frontier universe.<
>
> What is the "frontier" universe?

Way way back many centuries, in computer time that is, ago, a computer
game was released called Elite. 1982 iirc. This was the first space
trading game, and featured you in command of a Cobra Mk III fighter/trader
craft. You flew around the galaxy making money, killing pirates, and
ocassionally kiling Thargoids (alien meanies) or doing missions for
GalCop, the interstellar police.

A sequel, called Frontier, was released, and another sequel was released
in 1995, called First Encounters. The latter was released about 5 minutes
before Windows 95, and was DOS only, to many people's chagrin.

Numerous fansites exist for Elite. Start at www.alioth.net or
http://www.siroccostation.com/, and search around. The latter has some
nice images of teh various spacecraft.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:42:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:42:43 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20
core book.
>
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
> The artist is David Mattingly

I'm sure we'll still be wearing baseball caps in the 57th Century, but
probably not uniforms and insignia derived from those used by Terran navies
circa -2600.

The Vargr's thighs look like human thighs; they should be more canine.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:47:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:47:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter
>groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main
>movement.
>     Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling
themselves
>as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA"
>tried to keep up a bombing campaign.

In my current campaign, the Fifth Frontier War has just ground to a halt,
and the parties have agreed to return (more or less) to the status quo ante.
Some of the Ine Givar are giving up, some are regrouping, and some are going
to seize the initiative and try to break off at least one or two major
systems from the Imperium.  Members of the first and second categories may
become somewhat wroth with members of the third, for bringing Imperial heat
to bear on all of them.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:52:47 +1300
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6E642F.26112.D31353@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:15, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Hunter Gordon wrote:
> > For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the
> > T20 core book.
> > 
> > http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> > 
> > The artist is David Mattingly
> > 
> > Hunter
> > 
> > 
> 
> Nice.
> 
> <pickymode>
> 
> Hmmmm...
> 
> The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to
> low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.

I don't see that at all. By the point I'd blown the image up enough for 
this to be apparent _everything_ was looking like crap from being a 
jpeg.
 
> This is someplace where a texture map is not worth a million 
> polygons...it really needs some geometry there to make it look less
> fakey. It needs a far more detailed texture map, and bump mapping to go
> along with the geometry. As it is it's just a smooth cylinder with some
> blurry stuff projected on it. The platform they're standing on needs
> some surface relief as well. More geometry would make all of them look
> better.

This is so, though - the whole building looks very 'Star Wars' - 
incredibly clean and smooth and a place only a mandman would stand in 
more than the slightest breeze.
 
> The mans face, on the other hand, is too photorealistic and looks 
> seriously photoshopped in; the ship, the background, the rest of the
> people in the shot and even his jacket are much more painterly...some
> work in Painter using some of the art brushes may be in order.
> 
> The two towers in the background, aside from a bit of cultural shock to
> 'em (man it hits you at weird times...I didn't see it at first, now it's
> all I can see.), are also too symmetric...it's highly unlikely that the
> tenants on the floors would be that much in synch that the lights are
> identical. They need to have different patterns of light.

Now that you mentioned it - yep.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:42:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:42:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKHCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>
>At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)

Word from the Rim is that SolSec has abandonned the traditional 0300 knock
at the door and instead is cutting a hole in the ceiling and sliding down a
pole to effectuate arrests.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 00:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:52:47 +1300
Subject: [TML] name resource
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215150854.009fb970@mindspring.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKBCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6E642F.18284.D31345@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 15:11, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:21 AM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Unfortunately, "Berry" is derived from medieval French taunting of the
> >English k-niggets.
> 
> Sir, I will have you know that I come from a pleasing blend of English
> and Irish ancestry.  No genes French were involved in my manufacture.

Now if you could explain how you're sure that the English parts of you 
weren't contaminated with French genes carried by a Norman who's 
parents had been a bit unchoosy about who they 'slept' with I'll 
believe you. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:08:13 +1300
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013815472.311.ajackson@ping>
References: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHIEEDCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
Message-ID: <3C6E67CD.19751.E13498@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 15:24, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Stephan Aspridis writes:
> > Ohhhhhh Yesssss!!!!
> > 
> > BTW. What kind of funny energy beams are that? Look like small scale
> > meson hits on the wall ;-)
> 
> Another interesting question: why are they not firing in the direction
> the beams came from?

Because that's not the only direction the threat's coming from, of 
course. They've just been caught in a bit of a cross-fire.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:14:09 +1300
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013818268.54.ajackson@ping>
References: <p04330101b8934d06f8ea@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3C6E6931.3078.E6A193@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:11, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Yet another observation:
> 
> There seems to be a 'boot heel' effect at the lower joint in the vargr's
> leg. I don't think that should be there (actually, I think the boot
> should stop before the lower joint; vargr probably wear boots going over
> the lower joint about as often as humans wear boots going over the knee)

I'm sure I agree about a Vargr's boot length (and it's undoubtedly 
going to vary enormously across Vargr spance), but I don't like the 
'boot heel' either. A Vargr who can put that part of his foor/leg on 
the ground probably has a broken leg.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 01:24:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:24:13 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Hunter Gordon writes:
>>>  Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>>>  resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>>wolves.
>>
>>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.
>
>No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.

Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves 
(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from 
"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something 
like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically 
engineered.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:06:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BDD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020216020600.75012.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com>

Love it! Great stuff...who is in the pic? Is the vargr
based on anyone we know?
> 
> >From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
> >
> >For those interested, we just got the final cover
> artwork in for the T20 
> >core book.
> >
> >http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> >
> >The artist is David Mattingly
> >
> >Hunter
> >
> >
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
http://mobile.msn.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:14:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:14:23 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <3C6E642F.26112.D31353@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6DC07F.2E1D8158@attbi.com>



Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 15 Feb 2002, at 16:15, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > The texture map on that column next to the main characters is WAAAAAY to
> > low-res for the image. Really really pixellated.
> 
> I don't see that at all. By the point I'd blown the image up enough for
> this to be apparent _everything_ was looking like crap from being a
> jpeg.

Look at the ligts for a dead give away. that compare the texture of 
the wall compared to the walk way out to the grav vehicle.

-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:13:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:13:53 GMT
Subject: [TML] re: Derogatory terms
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKCCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3c6dbb8a.26426640@post.demon.co.uk>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

>The type of helmet worn may influence this.  A jarhead may actually look
>like his head is in a jar in the far future (but that probably won't be a
>Marine, because battle dress uses an opaque metal helmet).  

Canheads?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:22:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:22:17 -0500
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork
 for T20)
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 5:24 PM David P. Summers wrote:

>At 7:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>
>>On 2/15/2002 at 3:10 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>
>>>Hunter Gordon writes:
>>>>  Except for the feet, yeah pretty much...Unlike the Aslan who only vaguely
>>>>  resemble Terran lions, Vargr were actually were engineered from Terran
>>>wolves.
>>>
>>>And everyone knows that humans look just like chimpanzees.
>>
>>No but then again, humans weren't directly uplifted from chimps either.
>
>Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves 
>(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from 
>"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something 
>like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically 
>engineered.

Ok so wolf or dog...only the Ancients know for sure! ;)

I don't disagree that it would seem there should be some evolutionary changes over that period, but apparently it didn't happen in the OTU. The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with a canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own unknown reasons.

The point is, the depiction on the cover is a fairly accurate as per previous Traveller material.

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 02:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:38:02 EST
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>

   Well, overall, I liked the T20 cover; though it seems as if it certainly 
owes a conceptual tip of the hat to The Phantom Menace, IMO.
   A couple of things I didn't care for was the fact that the Vargr seems to 
have heels on his boots in the same place as humans do. Is he too broke to 
buy boots made specifically for Vargr. I don't think Vargr _would_ have heels 
on their boots anyway, as doggies tend to walk on their toes :)
   The other thing that bugs me is the joker with the Solomani hat looks like 
a pretty serious redneck---should JoeBob really have _that_ many front 
teeth?:)
  -Ken-



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:14:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:14:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
All right.  Here's an FF&S2 design I did using the Akins spreadsheet. 
Tell me which details you find "insignificant."  For me to know how to
address your objections, I need to know exactly what they are.  Anyway,
here's the AuricTech Shipyards _Sentinel_-class scout/courier:
**end transmission**
I await your response.<

I'll try, but I'm not sure it works that way. I'm not talking about
insignificance in the 'output' but insignificance in the 'input'. In other
words, the simply system *could* produce the exact same ship - but be
easier to build! 

I thought the basic 'high-guard' outline of  QSDS was pretty close. I'll
take a closer look at this design with the TNE FF&S (isn't that the one you
refere to as FF&S2?).


>>>>>So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's 
>>>>>wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if
the 
>>>>>large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's 7' 
>>>>>tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more i
then 
>>>>>have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this 
>>>>>statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to 'guessitmate' 
>>>>>it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down. All in all having

>>>>>that stat save a bit of hastle.

Let's me get this straight. The player told you they were wearing a
waist-length coat - but they neglected to tell you that they were 7 feet
tall? ;|

The answer to the question is "Which makes the better story?". You pick an
answer based on that. 

But your saying that its *faster* and *less hassle* to figure out the
differential betweent the character's inseam, coat-length, height and
barrel length? Which book do you do that in? CT, MT? G:T, T4?

> >>>>>>And surface area can matter in role plying. It determines (more or
> >>>>>>less) stuff like how big a target the ship is on thne ground and
> >>>>>>how easy to see it is.
> 

> >>>>>>And how do you tell if the other slightly bigger/smaller ship
beside it 
> >>>>>>is also in the same situation? What about a yet bigger or smaller
one? 
> >>>>>>Again you're making it up. 

Yes. GMing requires making things up. 

> >>>>>>There are a number of players around who 
> >>>>>>find it difficult to make assesments of situations they're
comfortable 
> >>>>>>with in games where so much is just 'made up' - it can feel
arbitary.

Make belief IS arbitrary! ;}

Look at what your talking about though - the distance between a hemline and
a long pistol and an SMG? Your talking about 12" inches of variance. 

You said yourself "Slightly" bigger/smaller ship. Again, why dont we have
seperate Arm Strength? Cause the different is only SLIGHTLY different!

How much difference could this possible make +1 bonus? +2 bonus? Trivial at
best. Tedious at worse. 

And remember, that if a gearhead player takes all of the simple ship design
rule and then retrofits measurements on them - that's fine. 

But that's a LOT different than a player adding more guns to a ship because
his is flat and all the GM's are round! Detail for background STORY
purposes is great. Detail for rule squeezing is the real hassell, IMHO. 

I would LOVE it if my players knew how exactly big something was in meters.
But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use Starfuries
because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma Projectors!" One is
good for the story. The other is bad for the story. 


>>>>But then I want to know if I can flip the door switch using the barrel
of 
>>>>my rifle, or use the weapon as an imprvosed cane.. why not just go
ahead 
>>>>and give the GM the info?

Because barrel length has very little to do with whether or not you could
any of those things. And so instead of giving the GM good info, your
bogging the game down with tedious trivia. 

> >>>>>>And I have had players, good ones mind you,  who would raise
specific 
> >>>>>>complaints about half of those hand waves.

Then you need to find a group that matches the GM's style. No problem.
Gamers who raised those complaints should have GM's who use FF&S or GRUPS
Vehicles or whatever they want.

I'm not saying that's okay. I'm saying that I dont want that. I dont want
to play with those gamers (cause no, they are NOT good players if they care
about such minutae for GAME RULING. They are rules lawyers at best.
Background detail yes. Rules lawyering no). 

> >>>>>>My take on this has always been to start with the detailed design
system, 
> >>>>>>then build easier, compatible versions.  GURPS does this nicely
with the 
> >>>>>>VE2 to modular design system we see in Traveller

This statement pretty much says it all. The problems with this approach are
pretty much well known by now I presume. If fact, there are web-sites
devoted to all the errors this system creates. 

Which one should I use for MegaTraveller? 

Though I'm only speaking for myself I feel pretty safe in saying that if
you think GURPS Vehicles sucks,  the modular ship building system in GURPS
Traveller doesn't suck any less! 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Michael Taylor wrote:
> The Gearheads will ONLY use the complex system, the Roleplayers will ONLY
> use the simple system and this will never come up. 

>>>I imagine it would come up pretty often if they're in the same group.

Sure. But we're talking about the Ship Design System used by the GM. If the
gearhead player couldn't deal with a handwave about the "slightly bigger"
ship, he probably wouldn't want to play with the group. Should the
roleplaying GM adopt a complicated ship design system for this player? 

Or reversed, if the roleplaying player says he uses his belt to swing from
the chandalier and the gearhead GM asks him what his characters' waistline
in centimeters are then that player will probably not play with that group
that often. 

>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.

It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is confusing
you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".

You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system and a
person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how I'm
using the terms. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:14:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
Message-ID: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-226@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they
started
firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the cast.

I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
their adventures in space'

damn shame
<

Yeah, I just saw the episodes that made those changes and it was truly sad.


Unfortunately the success of Enterprise and Voyager has taught network
executives that those kind of changes work! 


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:30:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>
References: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/15/2002 at 9:38 PM MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

<snip>

>   The other thing that bugs me is the joker with the Solomani hat looks like 
>a pretty serious redneck---should JoeBob really have _that_ many front 
>teeth?:)

You'd have really loved the original shot of the guy when he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt ;)

(Actually he still is, you just can't see it well in this version...)

The face I believe though is that of the artist himself. At least comparing it with the bio pic on his webpage tends to make me think so, and I do know he has used his own image as a model for other sci-fi novel covers he has done.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:39:01 +1300
Subject: [TML] New TV Series
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-226@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E8B25.11255.16B472E@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 22:14, Michael Taylor wrote:

> Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> >Its a damn crying shame about that show, had real promise till they
> started
> firing writers and changing the 'look' of the female members of the
> cast.
> 
> I have no doubt the title will soon change to 'Herc and his bitches and
> their adventures in space'
> 
> damn shame
> <
> 
> Yeah, I just saw the episodes that made those changes and it was truly
> sad.

Bugger. It had considerable promise from what I've seen - Andromeda's 
screening here, but on pay TV only. :( We've only had four episodes so 
far, but everyone I know who's seen them liked it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 03:37:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:37:25 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E8AC5.2286.169D223@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2002, at 22:14, Michael Taylor wrote:

> I thought the basic 'high-guard' outline of  QSDS was pretty close. I'll
> take a closer look at this design with the TNE FF&S (isn't that the one
> you refere to as FF&S2?).

FF&S2 was for T4. FF&S1 was the one that went with TNE.

> >>>>>So as GM you're just making it all up. If I know the character's
> >>>>>wearing a waist length coat (the player's told me) how do I know if
> the 
> >>>>>large pistol/short SMG will fit under it? What if the character's
> >>>>>7' tall? Without the gun's length I have to make it up. What's more
> >>>>>i
> then 
> >>>>>have to remember or note this so I can consistent late. If this
> >>>>>statistic is already calculated for me I don't need to
> >>>>>'guessitmate' it, and I don't have to remember it or note it down.
> >>>>>All in all having
> 
> >>>>>that stat save a bit of hastle.
> 
> Let's me get this straight. The player told you they were wearing a
> waist-length coat - but they neglected to tell you that they were 7 feet
> tall? ;|
> 
> The answer to the question is "Which makes the better story?". You pick
> an answer based on that. 

Gah. That's not a sufficient answer at all for many, many groups. 
Besides half the time it'll be asked way back when the character's 
first arming up and you have no idea whether it'll be better for the 
story for the gun to be concealable or not.
 
> But your saying that its *faster* and *less hassle* to figure out the
> differential betweent the character's inseam, coat-length, height and
> barrel length? Which book do you do that in? CT, MT? G:T, T4?

No, I'm saying that without the gun length stat any ruling is arbitary. 
In many groups arbitary rulings like that can make for unhappy 
characters.

When I said "what if he's 7' tall"" I actually meant "what if the gun's 
worn by another person, who is 7' tall?" Though now that I think about 
it it's a bad example anyway.

> But that's a LOT different than a player adding more guns to a ship
> because his is flat and all the GM's are round! Detail for background
> STORY purposes is great. Detail for rule squeezing is the real hassell,
> IMHO. 

Sure. I see your point. I just think that simple or not so simple a 
design system should cough up plenty of numbers - they're easier to 
ignore than add later.
 
> I would LOVE it if my players knew how exactly big something was in
> meters. But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use
> Starfuries because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma
> Projectors!" One is good for the story. The other is bad for the story. 

To me the last one's embarrasing - it implies I screwed up somewhere.

> Which one should I use for MegaTraveller? 

High Guard, of course - it fits in nicely. :)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:22:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:22:51 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
>
>My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
>that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
>make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
them
>their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
>emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.

Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
dominate it?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:35:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1013720711.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEELPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Anthony Jackson wrote :
> Sure, the existing TL rules are definately more fun
> from a role-playing perspective.  However, if you're
> going to apply  rationality to your universe
> (admittedly, rather optional for a RPG), the default
> TL rules don't make any sense, at least not for a setting
> which has had a stable government and trade for the last
> thousand years.

I disagree.

The big point you have to remember about TL, is that it is the
level of technology that is _regularly_produced_ on that planet,
not the level of technology regularly _used_ or the level of
technology that _could_ be produced if absolutely neccesasary.

In other words it represents the sorts of things the planet is
likely to export and sets an idea of the local cost of various
things.

For instance, a TL5 world could regulalry use air-rafts. It just
doesn't build them on planet, and it imports the parts.

The reason it has such low local TL ?
It's a Ducal game reserve, and the Duke doesn't want industries
set up to ruin the environment, and anyway, he brings everything
he needs with him when he visits.

But the planet has a large population ?
Oh, well that means that the planet is local centre for the Amish
Catholics, who reject innappropriate technology use

Etc.

The point about stable trade actually makes it more likely that
TL will vary, as with stable trade there is not the same need to
produce everything on planet, and a TL 3 world could just import
_everything_, perhaps it's a tourist or agricultural world, and
has no culture or production capability of it's own to speak of.
Like New Zealand, for example.

New Zealand is a good example in another respect too. We export
computer programmes,  but we don't produce computer hardware (as
a rule, anyway). That puts us at a TL below that required to
produce computers, even though large numbers of people have
computers and we have a thriving software industy.

Also, we have one or two small producers, such as Tait
Electronics that produce higher TL electronic goods, but the
majority of this is for export to specific countries or
distributed to specific industries, it's not common for an
ordinary man-in-the-street to be able to purchase a Tait radio.
Thus, for Traveler TL determination, the fact that we do actually
produce these things is irrelevant, because your average
adventurer can't walk into a shop and buy a locally produced one.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 04:35:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:35:37 +1300
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <20020215002137.LXDR319.dorsey@link>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGELPHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Laning wrote :
>
> This is not at all right.  Has anyone in the press
> picked up on this story yet?
> The part about "no Pepsi, Coke" should get the
> press' interest, if nothing else.

Not any more.
It was big news when it happened at the Sydney Olympics, but now
it's just standard policy for sporting events.

Both the IOC and the IRB (International Rugby Board) even tried
to force all teams to use the same make of shoes in international
games. Quite apart fromm the fact that would have meant most of
the big teams couldn't play because they were already sponsored
by someone else, there are individual athletes, usually the best
ones, who refuse to wear branded shoes, because they get them
hand made for them by individual craftsmen.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:22:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:22:26 +0000
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F12shPmsHYcO86t7oRs0000d0d6@hotmail.com>

At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
     "For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
the T20 core book."

     "http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg"


Mr. Gordon,

     Nice piece of work.  Not exactly my cuppa, but it's big, it's flashy, 
it's eye catching (not to mention eye watering), and it should hopefully 
lure the legions of D20 players into Our Olde Game.
     If the idea was to coax folks into giving Traveller a try, you folks 
have succeeded.  After all, all that over-the-top Warhammer artwork must be 
part of it's popularity, right?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:36:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Bra-ZILLLLLLLL!
Message-ID: <a1.22b09d49.299f49de@aol.com>

> >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>  >
>  >At least SolSec ain't knocking at my door. :-)
>  
>  Word from the Rim is that SolSec has abandonned the traditional 0300 knock
>  at the door and instead is cutting a hole in the ceiling and sliding down a
>  pole to effectuate arrests.

Yeah, well, that's Information Services for ya.

LKW

Great flick. I don't know about anybody else, but I thought the star 
(Jonathan Pryce?) looked like a young Alec Guiness?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:43:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:43:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping> <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <a4rr6uo9kimk7m2j5caj3jebvb7icvb3mt@4ax.com>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:35:25 -0500, "Hunter Gordon"
<trav@RPGRealms.com> wrote:

>For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the T20 core book.
>
>http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
>
>The artist is David Mattingly

Generally a nice piece of work.  There are some nit-picky details that
I would want to mention.

I'll point to the general discussion about our friend Vargr and
consider it enough said.

Gearhead mode:
The two parallel ray beams are exactly horizontal indicating the fire
is coming from exactly stage left, while both foreground characters
are aiming a guesstimated 30% forward of that point and something over
the viewpoint's left shoulder.  Either they foolishly ignoring an
immediate threat, or they haven't noticed it quite yet.

I would have considered pointing one of the foreground characters in
hat direction of fire.  This would permit one charater to appear in
three-quarter view and the other in profile and appear to make it a
much more dynamic encounter with threats and fire from multiple
directions.

Our foreground characters appear to be using some unspecified form of
"blaster" that is neither a laser (note the bursty flare near the
human's firing barrel), nor a conventional firearm.  These can't be
traditional Traveller energy weapons as they lack the necessary power
cable for either a laser or F/PGMP, and they aren't firearms as they
are producing an obvious beam.  Chalk this one up to artistic license.

However, I particularly like the action going on in the midground.
The flyer, though showing some suspicious wings and air intakes, looks
like a reasonable approximation of an enclosed air-raft.  It took a
second look to recognize the Aslan standing in the doorway, but it is
a nice feature for the sharp-eyed Traveller fan to notice.  The
leaping woman(?) with cape also looks well done given the size of the
image.

The background ships are nice window-dressing, but are probably
standing in for a greater amount of smaller vehicular traffic one
would normally expect in a city of such a tech level.  Depending upon
their distance from the scene, they might be too large for comfortable
landing on a planetary surface.

In sum, despite my statements above, I think it is an eye-catching
design and, with the title in place will prove to be an attractive
cover for the book.  It will stand quite well in comparison to other
competing publications.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:32:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:32:46 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers
Message-ID: <f4.16d94eef.299f48fe@aol.com>

> You are right though. I hadn't caught the symmetric lighting, but most of 
the 
> upper portion of those towers will be covered by the book title.

One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, because 
that's where the title goes. Sometimes it can be a real problem picking a 
color for a title that can 
1) be read easily,
2) won't get lost in the background, and
3) Looks good

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:45:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Naval Assignment Definitions
Message-ID: <cb.1d89e4bc.299f4be3@aol.com>

   Hi gang,
   I've been going through my MT Player's book recently, reacquainting myself 
with the rules in preparation for restarting my Trav campaign.
   Anyhow, while looking over the Enhanced Naval Character stuff (originally 
in High Guard), I got to wondering just what the definitions for the 
different yearlong assignments listed on the Assignments Table actually 
_are_. 
   I could've _sworn_ there were definitions for them at _some_ point, but 
reading over the MT stuff, as well as looking through my old copy of HG again 
left me clueless :(
   Anyhow, while some Definitions seem pretty obvious, others have me kind of 
wondering...
Battle:
Siege: 
Strike:
Patrol:
Shore Duty:

  -Ken-
    


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 05:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:55:24 +0800
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <3C6CE3AB.6090206@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEDKEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Well at least the monkess are unlikely to be from the Von Braun!
Monkeys with attitudes

Antony

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 06:54:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:54:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
> >
> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
> >them their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods.
> >The team that emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>
>Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
>dominate it?

Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 07:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:46:33 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Genengineering (Was: Olympic Alternatives)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKECCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10202160940570.31000-100000@kosh.hut.fi>

A bit off-topic, but might be relevant.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: CHam628781@aol.com
> >Drug testing may soon be largely irrelevant anyway. One of the big concerns
> >about the next Olympics is genetically engineered athletes. We are now
> New York Times, June 20, 2024:

Read the GURPS Transhuman space (came into store near me last week). 

After one reading, it seems very good, and provides thought for Traveller
as well, even though most technologies are of course more advanced;
computers, gene technology and nano stuff comes to mind immediately.

The book is set in 2100, and concerns have advanced to whether uplifted
animals (and biological androids, AIs, and more) are people or not. 

Sorry about the ad, but the book was good. B-)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:05:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:05:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <F138YtdSHYwHnx9FMAt0001a1d4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E12C6.A33F7A31@sympatico.ca>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>
>
>      "...as a professional referee for the sport of Paintball, judging can
> be a real pain."
>
> Mr. Stasica,
>
>      Professional paintball matches?  Details, man, details!

At the risk of boring the members of this list, I would prefer to take this
off the TML.  Suffice to say I have and continue to ref and direct the judging
of event where first place for a 5 player team is 5 (brand new - less than 10
km - 6 miles (I believe) cars.  Or 10 player events where a cash prize of
$50000 is not amiss for 1st place.  This is not a typo or as good as it looks
considering it would typically be spit more than 10 ways, alternates on a 10
player tournament roster.  And each one of these individuals is obviously
taking time off of work and travelling (sometimes international distances -
plus accommodations).

>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

Simple details, 3-4 days events per division (3,5,7, or 10 player teams) often
divisions overlap.  Pre-set fields for 6-8 game prelims, fields change during
Semis and again during Finals.

This is not the in the woods game you may have played.  This is high end
Amateur and Professional Paintball, and bears very little resemblance (on my
reffing side of the fence) to real in the woods paintball.

I must admit I do not know where to begin with details, what I find trivial
may be of the utmost importance to some.  If there is no complaint, I will
entertain (almost) all questions regarding this SPORT!!! (shouting Intended- I
will defend this portion on the TML if need be).

My favourite anecdote is when I approached several insurance (local - quite
laughable,  if you want the background i.e. big names backing local companies
) companies here in Canada and was politely informed that they do not insure
AGAINST WARS. (again shouting Intended)

What's to be said, I get paid by my Reffing Business to travel to new places
and watch people 'shoot each other'.

Michael




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:00:53 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10202160959550.31000-100000@kosh.hut.fi>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)
> 

Chalk one keyboard kill for Doug.

(And we could be better in regular skiing too, if not for the doping mess
last year...)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:07:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKICCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6E1342.B89DAA08@sympatico.ca>

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
> >
> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
> them
> >their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods. The team that
> >emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>
> Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
> dominate it?
>
> --Glenn

World War II?

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 08:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games inthe many
 TU's
References: <OF726022D2.5EB6BB1C-ON05256B60.0075C2AB@mkm.can.ibm.com>
 <20020214152459.A7654@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020214225232.009fc510@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3C6E1676.C7D08633@sympatico.ca>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:23 AM 2/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >There is something truly good about the Olympics,  The Jamaican Bobsled team,
> >Eddie/Eddy the Eagle, and the one man Luge participant from some other
> >Tropical
> >destination.  These people are here to compete, winning is nice but they
> >must be
> >happy just for the competition.
>
>  From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had
> never before swam 100 meters, never even seen an Olympic pool representing
> his country.  He was wearing plain swimming trunks, and the other people in
> his heat (who were at the Olympics under a program to allow developing
> nations to place athletes in sports the nation isn't known for) both
> DQd.  So he swam alone.  The most painful, awkward 100 meters you ever
> saw.  We were wondering if he was going to make it at all!
>
> But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally
> touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a
> medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/olympics2000/swimming/newsid_931000/931508.stm

Thank you.  You have finally explained what I saw (muted in a bar) in  passing but afraid
to refer to without understanding.  Again this is a better representation of the Olympic
spirit of sport in my opinion.

Thank you again for the cite.

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <memo.896259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <010101c1b67c$a85dbd00$9532f7a5@pctframen>
Greetings dear hearts.

All sports are artificial.

They can be fascinating to study, to perform or to watch. If you happen to 
earn your living at them, then naturally they assume a certain importance 
to your life; likewise if they are a consuming hobby (as participant or 
spectator).

Listen to someone who is enthusiastic about ANY sport and you will find an 
amazing collection of information, facts, speculations....

... surprisingly similar to a role-player in full flood about the game 
system of their choice :-)

My students are almost all football (soccer) fans - indeed most of my 
fellow teachers are too. It bores me silly. I doubt many of them would be 
much more interested in Traveller... (although a few do ask about this 
'role-playing' that I get up to).

What's really fun is getting someone who is knowledgeable and enthusiastic 
about anything to talk about it. Even if the subject itself isn't one that 
interests you much. Who knows when it might come in useful.

Sports, their participants and their fans can be a fruitful source of 
adventure topics for your games too. In my Traveller games, there's a mix 
of 'traditional' sports like athletics, gymnastics (including the 
micro-gravity variant) and target shooting with different weapons; team 
games of all kinds - kabbadi is a fun one to throw at players in a low-g 
environment! - both 'real' and invented (rollerball, of course, features 
here, also hockey, various ball sports, etc.) and the 'combat' sports - 
martial arts, fencing, etc. Some of you may recall I wrote a scenario 
about a world where fencing, and duelling, were very important to the 
inhabitants.

Characters can be embroiled in all manner of things - bodyguarding 
sportsmen, gambling scams, being mistaken for sports stars, just attending 
a sporting event and getting caught up in whatever is going on there... 

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <memo.896260@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

At a first glance I thought, "Well, Okay..." - but to be honest cover art 
isn't that important to me. I know that the marketing droids will claim it 
has something to do with sales, so it's worth paying attention to, though 
:-)

Further study begins to draw out the flaws. In many ways that's a good 
thing. Okay, what am I on about? It shows the strength of Traveller, that 
we can see things in a purely imaginary picture and shout, "Wrong!"

Most of the flaws have been mentioned already - Vargr anatomy (no worse 
than it's ever been, apart from those boot-heels!), the Hawaiian shirt, 
the over-symmetrical towers, pixellation caused by use of an enlarged JPEG 
- but I find that the perspective is way off. Compare the ground the 
figures in the foreground are standing on to the 'landing pad' strut... 
it's far too narrow and flimsy, even with the anti-gravs going  at full 
pelt you couldn't land a ship on the pad at the end, it's too small!

Overall, though, it gives a good impression of what Traveller is about to 
the casual glance. It ought to get folk to whom the concept (rather than 
the name of the game!) appeals to pick the book up and investigate 
further... and when all is said and done, that's what it's for :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
Message-ID: <memo.896261@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3C6E12C6.A33F7A31@sympatico.ca>
Greetings dear hearts.

The concept of 'Paintball as sport' looks like a good one for Traveller 
games...

... and Michael's account makes me wonder why I turned down an invitation 
from the local team to join them :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 11:13:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:13:00 +0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <3C6D969E.2030002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020216190610.00a07cb0@localhost>

Hi y'all!

I often find myself disagreeing with Bruce's opinions, but in this case, I 
largely agree.  Also, some of the towers in the background are a little too 
simplistic in their modeling -- the lemon-shaped tower in particular.  More 
complicated modeling would make them look more realistic to modern 
eyes.  The two ships (?) in the background also look too flat.

Also, it's too bad the ships on the landing pad aren't more canonically 
Traveller.

BUT, 1) it's a very good shot in general -- I like the woman jumping for 
the shuttle, and 2) it's supposed to be final, isn't it?  This kind of 
nitpicking may be too late to be of any use.

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 10:54:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:54:28 -0000
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light
Message-ID: <000c01c1b6d8$532e02c0$ae7f893e@fabian>

Does anyone have electronic (preferably pdf) copies of the following
Traveller rulebooks? As you may know, I'm about to go to Japan, and I'm
looking at ways of maintaining my Traveller addiction while keeping within
a very tight weight limit.

Yes, I am aware that electronic copies are technically a copyright
violation. I am asking *only* for electronic copies of books that I
already own and have paid for legally. I have no interest in selling my
original paper copies or in redistributing electronic copies. If this
still sits uneasy with anyone who is concerned about copyright law, then
please send a single polite private email to let me know your opinion and
then leave it at that. No flame wars on the topic.

I am willing to quote extensively from any of these books to demonstrate
that I really own them. Other forms of demonstration, including scans sent
privately, will be entertained.

Anyway, the books in question are:

TNE: Main rulebook
TNE: Fire, Fusion, and Steel
T4: Fire, Fusion, and Steel
TNE: World tamer's Handbook
GURPS: Space
GURPS: First In
TNE: Vampire Fleets
TNE: RC Equipment Guide

No, that isn't my complete collection, it is just what I consider the core
gearheading supplements :)

Uh, I guess this shows my bias for TNE.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 11:18:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:18:22 -0000
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <F12shPmsHYcO86t7oRs0000d0d6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010701c1b6db$a9b52a80$ae7f893e@fabian>



> At 4:35 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>      "For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for
> the T20 core book."
>
>      "http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg"

My tuppence:

The twin towers' lights are to synchronised. And why aren't there lights
over teh entire length of those towers anyway? Not necessarily room lights
though, but in pragmatics, it looks liek prime advertising space.

The vargr head and teh human head in teh foreground look too
phot-realistic compared to the rest of the image. Also, the vargr's left
hand looks slightly too large, misdrawn, and isn't realy doing anything
useful.

Someone asked earlier, so I'll tell. The weapons they are carrying are
obviously Rhialto Foundries' TL 16 plasma pistols :) And I agree they are
shooting in the wrong direction. Let the buyer speculate.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 13:16:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:16:53 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <ae.2269263f.299fb5c5@aol.com>

In a message dated 15/02/02 23:33:08 GMT Standard Time, grote1731@hotmail.com 
writes:


> 
> 
>      "I don't think the PIRA had an agreed policy of "hands off" when it 
> came to the Royals (after all It was PIRA who killed Lord Mountbatten, the 
> Queen's Uncle)..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>      Hence my reference to "MOST" of the IRA.  There are always splinter 
> groups that try and operate under the umbrella provided by the main 
> movement.
>      Look at the recent activities of the group of wackos styling 
> themselves 
> as the "Real IRA".  After the IRA agreed to the ceasefire, the "Real IRA" 
> tried to keep up a bombing campaign.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 

The murder/assassination of Mountbatten was a sanctioned PIRA attack. It was 
not carried out by a breakaway faction and took place on the same day as 18 
British soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb and a British Army band was 
attacked in Brussels, tending to suggest it was part of a co-ordinated series 
of actions.

PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact claim 
to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful m
urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
attack on Mountbatten.

Although PIRA was quite prepared to murder civilians/accept collaterall 
damage in its campaign it was also politically astute enough to know that the 
PR consequences of murdering a member of the Royal family. If it had thought 
benefit would accrue from killing Brenda or her spawn it would have attacked 
them.

ObTrav: I think Ine Givar would love a crack at the Imperial family, after 
all they are the ones with the ulimate political power. However they probably 
also know that the consequences of such an action would be err, bad.
    
Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 13:33:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:33:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Ships Monkey
Message-ID: <3C6E5FAD.9D1796B6@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>

Two words:  Mojo Jojo

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 14:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:42:45 +1300
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
In-Reply-To: <ae.2269263f.299fb5c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6F26B5.13415.1DE385B@localhost>

On 16 Feb 2002, at 8:16, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

> PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
> bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
> PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact claim 
> to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful m
> urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
> attack on Mountbatten.

Close, but not quite correct. The saga of IRA factionalism is 
something truely befitting Monty Python (except that murders and 
maimings aren't real funny).

The first split was between the Pro and Anti Treaty factions in 
1922. The Pro-Treaty faction won (becoming the regular army of the 
Free State) and the Anti-Treaty faction took over the identity of the 
IRA.

The IRA revived in the 40's and 50's but by the late 60's had 
become marxist and its leaders wanted to move away from armed 
struggle to politics. This lead to the 1969 split between the 
Provisional IRA (PIRA) and the Official IRA (OIRA). This was 
followed by a bloody feud between the PIRA and OIRA

The OIRA finally did declare a ceasefire in 1972 (thats with regards 
to the British, the OIRA and PIRA didn't stop fighting until much 
later).

In late 1974 the PIRA was convinced by Catholic and Protestant 
clergymen to extend its Christmas truce (it eventually lasted for 
seven months and was a military disaster for them). Out of this 
came the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA). It drew defectors 
from both the PIRA and OIRA and was marked by a round of 
bloody infighting between the OIRA and INLA (eventually to include 
the PIRA making it a three way shooting match).

In 1986 a split developed in the INLA which created the Irish People 
Liberation Organisation (IPLO). This lead to yet more dead, 
infighthing and general killing. The IPLO declare a ceasefire in 1994 
and the INLA in 1998

The next split came in 1988 when the PIRA abandoned the 
principle absentiontism (where PIRA candidates would stand in 
elections but refuse to recognise the parliment or take their seats if 
elected). This created the Continunity IRA (CIRA) and the by now 
traditional blood feud and round of fraternal killings.

In early 1996 the 94 ceasefire collapse and the PIRA resumed 
terrorist attacks against the British (they had never abandoned their 
sidelines in bank robbery, protection rackets and blood feuds with 
other factions). But in 1997 a new ceasefire was arranged which 
lead to yet another split creating the Real IRA (RIRA).

Of course this sting of splits and factions is similarly mirrored on 
the "loyalist" side with the murderous representatives from the 
UVF, UDA/UFF and LVF.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 16:29:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:29:46 -500
Subject: RRE: [TML] Re: Military Units
In-Reply-To: <006401c1b2fd$552a7380$525d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <200202161636.g1GGaTG13251@sun.ebtech.net>

No it was a case of providing maximum firepower and manoeuvre 
opportunities at the lowest level.  Each fireteam had a BAR and 
was lead by a corporal.
 
> From: Rupert Boleyn 
> > > According to GURPS: World War II, the US Marine 
> > > Corps used a three fire-team squad organization 
> > > (page 44 sidebar).
>  > 
>  > Interesting. I wonder what reason they had for doing that.
> 
> "How many Marines does it take to change a light-bulb?"
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 17:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:15:01 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [TML] Sports and Games in the many TUs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215225032.009ea6a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0202161810361.38731-100000@svati>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

>At 08:22 PM 2/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> >From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
>> >
>> >My only contribution to this thread will be to state my long-held belief
>> >that biathalon is the dumbest of all the sports. If they really wanted to
>> >make it entertaining, then strap the contestants to their skis and give
>> >them their guns on Friday at noon, then send them into the woods.
>> >The team that emerges at noon on Monday gets the gold.
>>
>>Well, that is how the sport originated -- why do you think the Finns usually
>>dominate it?
>
>Finn biathletes?  Feh, they're a bunch of 'sisuies' :)

Seems like it's us norwegians that dominate the sport these days.
Biathalon is actually a military sporting event that driftet into
the private sector so to say. During the early parts of the 20th
century there were several large games were the best soldiers
attended and one of the competitions were biathalon. The best in
that sport were the alp/winter regiments of course.

And biathalon is a hard sport, run around very fast for ten minutes
take a rifle and try to hit five 5cm targets while your pulse
is above 100 :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 18:52:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:52:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202152154.g1FLsgr04702@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020216185249.19208.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Couple of observations, nits, and kudo's:

Observations:
1.  Very similar to the descriptions and images of
Coruscant from the Star Wars saga.  Not necessarily a
bad thing, just an observation.

2.  The combination of the towers and the angular
building is very NYC. (YMMV)

Nits:
1.  I have to agree that the Vargr head is a bit TOO
doggy for me.  I want to toss him a doggy biscuit.  Of
course, that may be what Vargr are supposed to look
like, but to me, at least, it does seem a bit
disproportionate.

2.  The boot's heel is a problem.  Unless it is
supposed to be decorative, because there is no
functional reason for it to be there.

3.  The upper incoming beam should be hitting
something.  The angle it is coming in at, with it
traveling between the Sol and Vargr, it should be
hitting the Sol's elbow.  Or the Vargr's
head/shoulder.  Coimparing their upper body with their
lower, somebody should be hurting.

Kudo's:
1.  I can see a group of players in this situation
VERY easily.  As such it is very Traveller.

2.  Regardless of when and where they were used in
that past or future, I happen to love the outfits. 
(And yes, I did notice the Hawaian shirt.)

3.  Overall a good coverart picture.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 19:12:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:12:41 +0800
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>

Hi all!

My next 3D project is going to be doing the interior of the /Bonaventure's/
hab rings -- interior views of a starship's spinning crew habitat, that
is. While looking for references, I found a couple interesting things on
the Net that others might be interested in:

<http://www.kochnewtonandpartners.com/pages/sale/starship/starship.htm> 
This is a real ship, called the /Starship/, which is a smallish cruise
vessel. The illos, though, are very useful.

<http://www.yachtwalk.com/vr_scenes/vrViewer.asp?ID=333&PID=93>  This is a
virtual walkthrough of the above.

Check 'em out.

Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 20:53:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:53:44 -0700
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <memo.896260@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MailDrop1.2d7k-PPC.1020216135344@ppp23.pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:48 +0000 (GMT) mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:


>Most of the flaws have been mentioned already - Vargr anatomy (no worse
>than it's ever been, apart from those boot-heels!), the Hawaiian shirt,

Watch it...that character actually resembles my PBEM character far too
closely...he's got some very nice shirts, even the Vargr think they're too
loud! ;-P


Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:14:52 EST
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <94.21a00d83.29a025cc@aol.com>

In a message dated 16/02/02 14:52:15 GMT Standard Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:


> On 16 Feb 2002, at 8:16, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > PIRA has pretty tight internal discipline and has pursued those who don't 
> 
> > bend to its rule with vigour. The only significant breakaway faction from 
> 
> > PIRA (prior to RIRA) was the INLA, in 1974 IIRC (although INLA in fact 
> claim 
> > to be a breakaway of the Official IRA) It may have been INLA's successful 
> m
> > urder/assassination of Airey Neive earlier in 1979 that lead to the PIRA 
> > attack on Mountbatten.
> 
> Close, but not quite correct. The saga of IRA factionalism is 
> something truely befitting Monty Python (except that murders and 
> maimings aren't real funny).

The IRA are not (quite) that factional, although they have split from time to 
time. Certainly they know how to have a good row over who is the true carrier 
of the Republican flame.

> 
> The first split was between the Pro and Anti Treaty factions in 
> 1922. The Pro-Treaty faction won (becoming the regular army of the 
> Free State) and the Anti-Treaty faction took over the identity of the 
> IRA.
> 
> The IRA revived in the 40's and 50's but by the late 60's had 
> become marxist and its leaders wanted to move away from armed 
> struggle to politics. This lead to the 1969 split between the 
> Provisional IRA (PIRA) and the Official IRA (OIRA). This was 
> followed by a bloody feud between the PIRA and OIRA

I thought the split, like that of 1986, was over abstentionism rather than 
involvement in politics per se.

> 
> The OIRA finally did declare a ceasefire in 1972 (thats with regards 
> to the British, the OIRA and PIRA didn't stop fighting until much 
> later).
> 
> In late 1974 the PIRA was convinced by Catholic and Protestant 
> clergymen to extend its Christmas truce (it eventually lasted for 
> seven months and was a military disaster for them). Out of this 
> came the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA). It drew defectors 
> from both the PIRA and OIRA and was marked by a round of 
> bloody infighting between the OIRA and INLA (eventually to include 
> the PIRA making it a three way shooting match).
> 
> In 1986 a split developed in the INLA which created the Irish People 
> Liberation Organisation (IPLO). This lead to yet more dead, 
> infighthing and general killing. The IPLO declare a ceasefire in 1994 
> and the INLA in 1998
> 
> The next split came in 1988 when the PIRA abandoned the 
> principle absentiontism (where PIRA candidates would stand in 
> elections but refuse to recognise the parliment or take their seats if 
> elected). This created the Continunity IRA (CIRA) and the by now 
> traditional blood feud and round of fraternal killings.

September 1986, and described by Brendan Hughes, a PIRA veteran thus 
"Everything was done to avoid a split but at least, for the first time in 
Irish history, they didn't split by shooting at each other."(1) 

CIRA is essentially the military wing of Republican Sinn Fein (RSF) who are 
the group who actually split, led by Ruairi O'Bradaigh (who had been 
instrumental in the creation of PIRA). CIRA developed later and didn't launch 
a significant operation until 1996*, hardly making it a big player.

> 
> In early 1996 the 94 ceasefire collapse and the PIRA resumed 
> terrorist attacks against the British (they had never abandoned their 
> sidelines in bank robbery, protection rackets and blood feuds with 
> other factions). But in 1997 a new ceasefire was arranged which 
> lead to yet another split creating the Real IRA (RIRA).
> 
> Of course this sting of splits and factions is similarly mirrored on 
> the "loyalist" side with the murderous representatives from the 
> UVF, UDA/UFF and LVF.
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
> 


Charles

*Possibly because PIRA had made sure those loyal to it had control of the 
arms dumps

(1) Quoted in Peter Taylor's "Provos"

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:33:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BE3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFL!!!  OUCH!!!!!
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Aspridis [mailto:Anubis.5@web.de]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:47 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: AW: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20


> Maybe they're tangling with some Famille Spofulam types?  ;D
> Jesse
>
God forbids. Reminds me of when some players once got hold of a prototype
"crowd control device" and used it while trying to escape starport police:

P1 (pushes button and holds said device into general direction of the
pursuers): "Well?"
 (P2 to P5 all staring at him - bewildered)
P1: "What?"
P3 (takes a deep breath): "What? WHAT? See that?!? (points finger to the
smoldering ruins where once were a shopping mall, bureau of starport
security, said dozen starport police officers and about a hundred civilians)
What were you bloody thinking? You took out half the city including the
populace! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?"
P1 (looks into general direction of P3's finger): "To them? No need to.
Anymore, that is."

They found out that Famille Spofulam really has funny product codes, where
crowd has something to do with "many people (e.g. "mass")" and, well, we all
know Spofulam's definition of "control by applied force"...

regards,
Stephan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Newman)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:28:11 -0900
Subject: [TML] Re: Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6ECEEE.785F6A19@gci.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote

> Couple of observations, nits, and kudo's:

> 1.  I have to agree that the Vargr head is a bit TOO
> doggy for me.  I want to toss him a doggy biscuit.  Of
> course, that may be what Vargr are supposed to look
> like, but to me, at least, it does seem a bit
> disproportionate.

Vargr heads are supposed to look very wolf like. The
problem with this head is that it's too _big_. Vargr
are smaller than humans and their heads are proportionately
smaller yet the Vargr's head looks to be the same size
as the humans head (it looks a little bigger but the
Vargr is a little closer), this is wrong. Where is
this Vargr's neck?

> 2.  The boot's heel is a problem.  Unless it is
> supposed to be decorative, because there is no
> functional reason for it to be there.

The Vargr is wearing a military uniform. 'Obviously'
the (mostly human) military in question has published
specifications for all its military footwear requiring 
them to have heels. The fact that Vargr boots don't need
heels is less important than the fact that regulations
require boots to have heels. ;)

-- 
He who will not reason, is a bigot; he who cannot is a 
fool; and he who dares not is a slave."        
-- Sir William Drummond 

Peter Newman         pnewman@gci.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:32:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3023A9BE2@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good references.  I've downloaded a ton yacht interior designs from the archives of a boating or yachting online magazine, but I can't find the link at the moment because it was from Speedvision's website BEFORE they turned into The Speed Channel (silly change).  Boat deckplans & cabin shots as well as those for larger RV's are VERY good references for starship stateroom designs.

If anyone's interested I can look into the possibility of posting an archive of the pics I've collected to my website.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Kronick [mailto:rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Staterooms


Hi all!

My next 3D project is going to be doing the interior of the /Bonaventure's/
hab rings -- interior views of a starship's spinning crew habitat, that
is. While looking for references, I found a couple interesting things on
the Net that others might be interested in:

<http://www.kochnewtonandpartners.com/pages/sale/starship/starship.htm> 
This is a real ship, called the /Starship/, which is a smallish cruise
vessel. The illos, though, are very useful.

<http://www.yachtwalk.com/vr_scenes/vrViewer.asp?ID=333&PID=93>  This is a
virtual walkthrough of the above.

Check 'em out.

Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 21:31:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:31:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C6ECFC0.BBD39C23@mindspring.com>

You are correct!
Rachel Kronick wrote:

> <snip>Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms
> were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual
>
> -- Rachel

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Women, can't live with them, can't have heterosexual sex without them
-Dick Sullivan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 22:02:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Staterooms
Message-ID: <memo.904719@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217031108.044000f0@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.

That brings back memories - a friend crewed on the Starship in 1999... 
some kind of semi-scientific, semi-documentary sort of thing. She was 
supposed to do popular science writing. As she only had a buck-a-minute 
satellite uplink web connection, I did all the research for her :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 22:45:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:45:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Ships Monkey
In-Reply-To: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020216224515.15700.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

Let the master of the toteboard denote an additional
keyboard kill for Dan.

> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:33:33 -0600
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
>
> Two words:  Mojo Jojo
>
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 23:14:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:14:36 -0600
Subject: [TML] looking for stuff...
Message-ID: <3C6EE7DC.EF706DB1@mail.cswnet.com>

1. A while back someone put up a webpage that had sector data,
world data, and allowed you to look at all worlds within 6pc
of a world, showing BTN's and trade routes...

And now I can't find it. <sniffle> If someone out there knows 
the site address can you repost it, pretty please?

2. A LONG while back someone else did a study on scoutrons in
5FFW. How many type S's where in the 0-3-4 squadrons, etc.
I can't find this either <outright crying> If someone out there
knows where this is, could they repost it, pretty pretty please?

3. Posted some time ago: 
>How and why did the name for the Sulieman class scout ship come about? >Is it named after Sulieman I of the Ottomans? Or is their a Mr >Sulieman, naval architect, or something/someone else?
Still looking for info and/or thoughts on this one. Would there
be anything about it in the Gurps SuliemanII deck plans?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP March

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 00:30:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:30:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202160338.g1G3cWo28765@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020217003255.FOR319.dorsey@link>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 at 22:14:38 -0500, Michael Taylor
<MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com> typed:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: T5
<<<SNIP OF DEBATE WHERE OPPOSING POSITIONS ARE BECOMING FIRMLY ENTRENCHED>>>
>
>>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
>It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is confusing
>you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".

This part still bothers me.  I am a role player, and a story teller, and
whatever other synonym you wish to employ.  I am also more gearhead than
almost everyone I've ever gamed with, which is a lot of people.  Did you
read my earlier post that describes gearheadedness/nongearheadedness as one
spectrum, and roleplayerness/nonroleplayerness as a completely different
and unrelated spectrum?  Desire for detail and desire for a good story are
two completely different things.  I think you're making an important
mistake to consider roleplayer or storyteller or whatever as mutually
exclusive with gearhead.  Just because you personally may be a strong
roleplayer and not a strong gearhead (taking a guess this describes you)
does not mean the two things go hand in hand.

>
>You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system and a
>person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how I'm
>using the terms. 

Fair enough statement, but it sure hasn't been sounding that way to me.

--Laning
God is real, unless explicitly declared integer.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 01:06:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephan Aspridis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:06:14 +0100
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEFBCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>


> >>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
> >>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
> It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
> confusing
> you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
>
And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist". Then we
have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my observation is
one of the most fundamental in gaming.

Just for protocol I consider myself a simulationist. It maybe good for the
story if my character should scream being tortured by a cattle prod. But
HT15, High Pain Threshold and some extra hit points costed much points so I
insist the GM takes that into account, namely that said prod does just some
trickling. IMO (but that's just me) storytelling style is just an invitation
for a GM (myself included) to nudge players around. Not possible if the
rules cover everything.

regards,
Stephan


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 04:04:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:04:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] re: Final Cover for Traveller T20
Message-ID: <F252uI5BrxJuLpTkmHY00022838@hotmail.com>

OK, I'll jump in.

Note that the best artwork I've ever published anywhere
is a line-drawing of a starship on a personal web page.
This image is far better than anything I could do, and
I love the action going on with the g-carrier(?) at the
grav pad.

That said, here's what I noticed.

The foreground heads.  Jarringly photorealistic, compared
to everything else in the image.  Such an irregularity of
style is very noticeable.

Those incoming energy bursts...are they a deliberate homage
to the horizontal stripe that graces Classic Traveller
covers?  They look too precisely parallel to the "ground"
(and to each other) otherwise.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 04:49:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:49:47
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
Message-ID: <F23s0jee6y24SSZV7Qb00003530@hotmail.com>

There have been several comments about the Hawaiian shirt. I always thought 
that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of the more colorful (pun intended) 
quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on page 25 of JTAS #9 showing a bearded 
man in a baseball cap with a "staple" gun pistol wearing a Hawaiian shirt. 
(I always wondered if it was meant to be Marc.) The signature on the drawing 
is "c 1980 Paul Jaquays (sp?)". The sketch is in black and white, but the 
shirt is drawn in red. I've seen this sketch reproduced in other Traveller 
books.

If I ever make it to one of the Traveller gatherings, I was planning on 
wearing a Hawaiian shirt per this sketch.

John L.

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>...
>You'd have really loved the original shot of the guy when he was wearing a 
>Hawaiian shirt ;)
>
>(Actually he still is, you just can't see it well in this version...)
>
>...

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:50:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <200202122153.g1CLraJ05370@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Ethan Henry writes:
>In certain specialized niches it's hard to imagine that every world
>has anything but Average Imperial (what is that, TTL C?) or better
>infrastructure.
>[...]
> - it only takes one moderately rich local to equip at least one hospital
>ward with TTL C or better equipment. It's simply enlightened self interest
>at the very least...

That's if you think TL indicates the highest available to anyone on the
world. I've always interpreted it to mean the TL of the majority of the
population. Private hospitals reserved for the elite and military hardware
for the elite's bodyguards and imported gravspeeders doesn't affect the
life of the majority of the population. It most especially doesn't
indicate the repair and support network a casual visitor to the world can
expect to avail himself of (which is what I think TL is _for_, at least in
a meta-sense; as a player I like to know what sort of equipment I can
expect to be able to buy and as a GM I like to know what sort of equipment
I can have my everyday locals tote.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:37:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:37:26 +1000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <00b001c1b777$bc370c40$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
>  From Sydney 2000 we had Eric Moussambani from Equatorial Guinea who had
....
> But the crowd of swim-mad Aussies started cheering.  When he finally
> touched at the finish, he heard all the applause and asked if he had won a
> medal.  He hadn't, he had just won the world.

Unfortunately, someone subsequently bothered to check who he was.

He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling Equatorial
Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather than serious
participation.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:52:00 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <200202150704.g1F74fe21523@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c1b777$bd7d9600$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      They either can't use them "properly"; i.e they don't want to try and
> hide the existance of the required 100+ rocket depot from the Isrealis or
> can't hide it long enough, or they don't want to use them "properly", i.e.
> flattening a settlement with 100+ rounds of HE will REALLY bring the IDF
> hammer down.
>      Of course, given how desperate they feel things are getting in this
> latest round of Intefada(sp), anyone want to bet that they don't begin
> using them "properly"?

One thing that comes to mind here is who owns the rockets launchers in
question?

You may be confusing Hezbollah (based in Lebanon) with the PLO, Hamas, and
so on.  Hezbollah is allied to various Palestinian groups, but isn't one
itself.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 05:51:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:51:53 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
Message-ID: <00b101c1b777$bcdee500$9a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      I wouldn't rank the political sophistication of the PLA, or any other
> Palestinian movement, very highly.  They could have had the same deal that
> brought Arafat back to the West Bank at any time after '67.  Instead, they
> killed Olympic althetes, drowned crippled US tourists, and hijacked
> airliners for 20+ years for no real political gain.

They were beaten.  The deal they made was a surrender, like the Irish "peace
process", or a bunch of others.  Basically, you concede most of the big
issues, like the right of refugees to return, in order to receive a few
concessions, which you use to quieten down the outrage of your supporters.

> ObTrav - The IRA, or most of the IRA, had a "hands off the royals"
> agreement with the UK for years.  Does the Ine Givar have a similar "deal"
> with the Imperium about the nobility?

Not IMTU.

But the "good guy" Ine Givar faction doesn't usually do assassinations much,
anyway.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:28:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:28:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Two Landgrab Questions
Message-ID: <F167gESvBp8ZKxsu9cE0000aa79@hotmail.com>

Hello.  I've got two TML Landgrab related questions.  There's a system out 
in Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C).  I'm not sure of its 
canonicity, but I do remember getting the system's name, location, UPP and 
allegence code (Cs) from one of the Traveller lists some years ago (1998?).  
Given that, I need to ask:

1. Is there any canonical data on this system?

2. Would I be able to landgrab this system?

Thanks for the info,

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:52:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:52:55 +1300
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
In-Reply-To: <OCEGIOOOJEFCHNIMJMAHOEFBCFAA.Anubis.5@web.de>
References: <200202152214_MC3-F24C-22F@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3C700A17.14032.1DD57D@localhost>

On 17 Feb 2002, at 2:06, Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> 
> > >>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
> > >>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
> >
> > It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
> > confusing you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
> >
> And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist".
> Then we have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my
> observation is one of the most fundamental in gaming.

Ah, but what about the gamists? This has been an old favourite on 
rec.games.frp.advocacy for the six years I've been on-line and longer.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 06:59:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:59:51 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork
 for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013814616.4978.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151922480752.8BA8A940@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <p04330102b89364b78f59@[143.232.119.186]>
 <200202152122170010.8C160A41@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b89500153797@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:22 PM -0500 2/15/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>  >Actually, it isn't specified that Vargr were uplifted from wolves
>>(or, as many seem to assume, dogs).  They were uplifted from
>>"canines".  It should also be known that Vargr underwent something
>>like 300,000 (?) years of evolution after they were genetically
>>engineered.
>
>Ok so wolf or dog...only the Ancients know for sure! ;)

Actually, probably from some common progenitor.

>
>I don't disagree that it would seem there should be some 
>evolutionary changes over that period, but apparently it didn't 
>happen in the OTU.

Why do you say this?  Traveller has always made it fairly clear some 
evolution occurred.

>The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with 
>a canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients 
>decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own 
>unknown reasons.

They should have a "fairly" wolf like head with, perhaps, small but 
significant changes to depict increased expressiveness and other 
changes (such as those that allow speech, a unchanged canine head 
wouldn't allow speech)

>The point is, the depiction on the cover is a fairly accurate as per 
>previous Traveller material.

There are some that are no better (to be fair, a good Vargr seems to 
be hard to do) but I've seen some which where significantly better. 
For example, I prefer the left Vargr on cover of the GDW alien 
module.  It shows a "wolf like" head with sentient expression.  To 
me, a picture of a wolf on a human body gives you a wolf head on a 
human body, not a Vargr (it misses to much of what separates a Vargr 
from a dog.)
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 08:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:13:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #159
In-Reply-To: <200202142105.g1EL5IM28003@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170856420.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" writes:
>     So lets here about all those games that inhabit your particular
>Traveller universe.  It's been nearly a year since our last take on this
>thread, so we should have plenty of new material to share!

In two separate campaigns I've attempted to get the players interested in
the Spinward Marches Boloball Championship by having a sweepstake on their
ship. The idea was that I could generate the results of the games and use
it for filler in my campaign newspaper (I also had a vague idea that at
some point the PCs' ship just might stumble across a misjumped ship
carrying on of the finalist teams. Who knows? Stranger things happen in
space ;-).

In both cases the idea flew like a lead balloon both times. None of the
players were in the least bit interested. However, just so that it wasn't
a total loss, here is the lead-up I wrote for the second try.


---------------
As most of the crew is assembled in the crew lounge after dinner, Chip
Uamdar looks up and asks: "Hey, Captain, are we going to have a boloball
sweepstake on the _Sphinx_?"

Rolf Barker says, "A boloball sweepstake? What's that?"

"Well, there's this game called boloball, you know," Uamdar explains.
"It's really popular and there's a special sector-wide league where teams
from all over the sector competes. Sixteen of the biggest systems have
teams. There's Regina, of course, and Efate and Jewell, and Mora and
Rhylanor and Glisten and Lunion and... uh..."

"Strouden and Vilis and Porozlo and Fornice," Josh Freed adds.

"That's right," Uamdar continues. "And Zivije and Edenelt and Equus and
Pallique. How many is that? 13... 14... 15... There's one missing..."

"Trin," Alishia Simmons adds laconically.

"That's right, Trin! How could I forget the Tyrranosaurs," Uamdar
exclaims. "Anyway, they have this tournament where they compete for the
sector championship. A sweepstake is a lottery where each crewmember buys
as many tickets as they like at 10 or 50 or 100 credits a pop -- whatever
you agree on -- and then you put a ticket with each team name in a
hat and add enough blank tickets to make up the number. You have a draw
and if you get the ticket with the team that eventually wins, you win the
money everybody paid into the kitty."

"What are the rules?" Rolf Barker asks.

"Oh, it's the usual sort of anti-G ballgame with a few twists. The field
is a wire cage 10 m high, 10 m wide, and 30 m long. You have two teams of
9 men each: two Low Rovers, two High Rovers, two Leftsiders, two
Rightsiders, and a Swot. Each man has a grav belt that maintains his
personal gravity field. The Low Rovers are aligned towards the bottom, the
High Rovers towards the top, the siders towards their respective side and
the Swot is neutral, so he  can "fly" anywhere and maintain any
orientation. The rest are only under 1/3rd G and they have "jet boots" so
they can trigger jumps (Only the 'jets' are just holographic effects and
it's the grav belt that does the jump). The ball is a hollow 3 kg steel
sphere the size of a grapefruit and everybody have magnetic gauntlets... a
grapefruit? About yea big. There's a small circular goal in the center of
each end wall and the object of the game... oh, you get the point, do you?
That's about all there is to it, except that at random intervals the
G-orientations switch 180 degrees. Great fun to watch, but you need a
strong stomach to play. You can't take any nausea medication, of course."
---------------

Anybody who likes the idea, feel free to use it...


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Feb 16 15:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chauncey Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:40:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light
References: <000c01c1b6d8$532e02c0$ae7f893e@fabian>
Message-ID: <000301c1b78e$8039df80$2c14fea9@ultra2000>

there was a project to make a traveller CD rom of all the GDW stuff some
years ago.
but I think it's fallen off the mark.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fabian <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>
To: Traveller ML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 5:54 AM
Subject: [TML] Travelling Light


> Does anyone have electronic (preferably pdf) copies of the following
> Traveller rulebooks? As you may know, I'm about to go to Japan, and I'm
> looking at ways of maintaining my Traveller addiction while keeping within
> a very tight weight limit.
>
> Yes, I am aware that electronic copies are technically a copyright
> violation. I am asking *only* for electronic copies of books that I
> already own and have paid for legally. I have no interest in selling my
> original paper copies or in redistributing electronic copies. If this
> still sits uneasy with anyone who is concerned about copyright law, then
> please send a single polite private email to let me know your opinion and
> then leave it at that. No flame wars on the topic.
>
> I am willing to quote extensively from any of these books to demonstrate
> that I really own them. Other forms of demonstration, including scans sent
> privately, will be entertained.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 08:37:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:37:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] T4 question
Message-ID: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

What are people's opinion of the T4 supplement Imperial Squadrons?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 09:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Lambert)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:08:23
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
Message-ID: <F143ojj6yiscG5ix7w200020b5d@hotmail.com>

I've always preferred the Vargr, Aedzouk, on the cover of the DGP V&V book, 
although he does have heels on his boots.

There is a good description of the long term evolution of the dog/wolf 
family at:
http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm
Compare that timeline to the Traveller Vargr timeline.

Dogs are a very recent derative of the gray wolf and their DNA are almost 
identical. See the January 2002 National Geographic. One of the most 
interesting features of the canis family is its genetic flexibility to adapt 
its size, coat, etc. to meet a wide variety of environments. It is that 
flexibility that has permited the development of the wide variety of dogs in 
a few thousand years. That is why I would argue for some variations among 
the Vargr.

John L.



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 10:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:22:05 +1300
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
In-Reply-To: <010b01c1b681$0af74c20$d7d5883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOENBHFAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Fabian wrote :

> Way way back many centuries, in computer time that
> is, ago, a computer game was released called Elite.
> 1982 iirc. This was the first space trading game,

While I love "Elite", it was not the first.
There were similar games on the TRS80 before the BBC was ever
released.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:09:19 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Naval Assignment Definitions
References: <200202161852.g1GIqrK11429@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C6F8F5F.57E39FAF@ameritech.net>




> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:45:07 EST
> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Subject: Naval Assignment Definitions
> 
>    Hi gang,
>    I've been going through my MT Player's book recently, reacquainting myself
> with the rules in preparation for restarting my Trav campaign.
>    Anyhow, while looking over the Enhanced Naval Character stuff (originally
> in High Guard), I got to wondering just what the definitions for the
> different yearlong assignments listed on the Assignments Table actually
> _are_.
>    I could've _sworn_ there were definitions for them at _some_ point, but
> reading over the MT stuff, as well as looking through my old copy of HG again
> left me clueless :(
>    Anyhow, while some Definitions seem pretty obvious, others have me kind of
> wondering...

Please note that these are not in any way official. Just my
understanding of the terms.

> Battle:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in at least one
encounter with opposing fleet elements.

> Siege:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in
blockade/interdiction of a world. This duty may have included space
combat, orbital bombardment, and/or occasional small scale landing
operations. Note that the operations undertaken in this duty tend to be
on a lower order of intensity than the missions represented by Battle
and Strike duty.
 
> Strike:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in extensive
bombardment and/or a major landing operation against a planet. 

> Patrol:

Character was assigned to a ship that was involved in routine
anti-piracy or frontier patrol operations that did not result in large
scale combat operations. Patrol could be of a single system or showing
the flag across a subsector, sector, or domain.

> Shore Duty:

Character was assigned to planetary facilities as support personnel at a
base or starport.

HTH

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:24:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: AW: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <memo.912311@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3C700A17.14032.1DD57D@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would describe myself as a role-player above all else... but for me, 
part of that is creating and inhabiting as 'real' an alternate reality as 
I can manage :-)

So, does this help or hinder the debate?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 11:39:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:39:54 -0800
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
In-Reply-To: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16cPeq-0007B7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:

> >The Vargr have always been depicted as looking like a humaniod with a
> >canine head. Perhaps in their genetic engineering the Ancients
> >decided to control the future evolution of the Vargr for their own
> >unknown reasons.
> 
> They should have a "fairly" wolf like head with, perhaps, small but
> significant changes to depict increased expressiveness and other
> changes (such as those that allow speech, a unchanged canine head
> wouldn't allow speech)

Also, they need a significantly larger cranium, Vargr don't have wolf-
size brains, they have human-sized ones and I'd dearly love to see 
a picture that depicted them with a forehead bulging up from behind 
their muzzle (or perhaps a skull that is wedge-shaped and flairs 
towards the back).

Are there any drawings of Vargr out there that give them anything 
other than un-modified wolf heads?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 13:12:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:12:38 +1000
Subject: [TML] What do the gearheads have to say?
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1b7b4$caae4760$f7158690@computer>

> From: "Alan Bradley"
> One thing that comes to mind here is who owns the rockets launchers in
> question?
>
> You may be confusing Hezbollah (based in Lebanon) with the PLO, Hamas, and
> so on.  Hezbollah is allied to various Palestinian groups, but isn't one
> itself.

Oops!  I wasn't quite following what you were talking about.  I thought you
meant all the toys Hezbollah et al have on the Lebanese border, not the ones
actually in the Palestinian territories.

Cerebral flatulence, in other words.  Ignore me.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 14:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:08:09 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1b7bc$a4e6ac40$f7158690@computer>

> From: "Robert Kondrk"
> Hello.  I've got two TML Landgrab related questions.  There's a system out
> in Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C).  I'm not sure of its
> canonicity, but I do remember getting the system's name, location, UPP and
> allegence code (Cs) from one of the Traveller lists some years ago
(1998?).
> Given that, I need to ask:
>
> 1. Is there any canonical data on this system?
>
> 2. Would I be able to landgrab this system?

Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.

You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is that
we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
no reason why we shouldn't.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 14:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:50:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1013804979.1183.ajackson@ping>
 <200202151635250521.8B0F69E0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020217155028.5e8d534b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hunter Gordon wrote:
> For those interested, we just got the final cover artwork in for the
> T20 core book.
> 
> http://www.TravellerRPG.com/finalcover.jpg
> 
> The artist is David Mattingly

Go David !   I like the cover.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:15:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:15:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] T4 question
References: <20020217.033750.-228231.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C6FE548.F1315E45@premier.net>



knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> What are people's opinion of the T4 supplement Imperial Squadrons?

I think it's pretty good.  It includes rules for generating squadrons
that are compatible with the _Fifth Frontier War_ board game; IMHO,
that's worth the price right there.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Kondrk)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:19:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
Message-ID: <F17519VMczi9yzu23Li0000ae76@hotmail.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
>Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.
>
>You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
>anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is 
>that
>we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
>no reason why we shouldn't.

Excellent. :) In that case, I'd like to officialy landgrab Hollis (Foreven 
2523).  I'll have an URL and the first data uploaded sometime during the 
week.

Thanks,

Bob K.
-----------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ

IMTU: tc+(++) tg t4 tn- ru- ge+ 3i@ c+ jt au+
      st+ ls pi(+) ta he++ so+ zh+


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 17:52:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:52:53 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Staterooms
Message-ID: <3C6FEDF5.3986851B@mail.cswnet.com>

>Also, does anyone know where those B&W illos of Traveller staterooms 
>were?  Was that the /Starship Operator's Manual/, or something else?

Yep. SOM has Crew and Passenger stateroom illos for the Type A Free
Trader, and a lounge area. I think Signal Gk and Safari Ship each have 1
small B&W illos of a lounge room [trophy room in Safari ships case]. 
I haven't seen any illos of Type S scout staterooms though. I'd love to
see what those look like. [HINT]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP March

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 16:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:34:42 -0000
Subject: Where Vargr come from (was: Re: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20)
References: <E16cPeq-0007B7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000201c1b7dc$30b15260$fa6b893e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: <sneadj@mindspring.com>

> Also, they need a significantly larger cranium, Vargr don't have wolf-
> size brains, they have human-sized ones and I'd dearly love to see
> a picture that depicted them with a forehead bulging up from behind
> their muzzle (or perhaps a skull that is wedge-shaped and flairs
> towards the back).

I disagree.

Thjere isn't any particular reason why a vargr should have a human sized
brain. Neanderthals had larger brains in an equivalent physical frame, but
no one ever accused them of being geniuses. They simply didn't use their
brains as efficiently as our direct ancestors. Perhaps vargr have smaller
brains but the brain volume is 'wired' more efficiently.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 18:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:23:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Two Landgrab Questions
In-Reply-To: <F17519VMczi9yzu23Li0000ae76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C6FA0A7.13844.65ADAE@localhost>

On 17 Feb 2002 at 12:19, Robert Kondrk wrote:

> >From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
> 
> >Foreven was set aside during the MT period as a Referee's preserve.
> >Therefore, there is no canonical information apart from what you have.
> >
> >You can landgrab it all you like.  Landgrabs are not canon.  Therefore,
> >anyone can landgrab anything they want.  The only limitation to date is 
> >that
> >we have been conventionally not overwriting each others stuff, but there is
> >no reason why we shouldn't.
> 
> Excellent. :) In that case, I'd like to officialy landgrab Hollis (Foreven 
> 2523).  I'll have an URL and the first data uploaded sometime during the 
> week.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob K.

Bob have you seen the web pages and I found that Hollis is from Imperial 
Lines #1.
http://zho.berka.com/data/foreven/reidain/galactic.html
http://zho.berka.com/data/foreven/xenough/galactic.html
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/sec/eb.foreven.pdf
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/sec/eb.foreven_sec.html
http://www.panpub.com/traveller/sectors/foreven/
http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/opal/opal10511.html
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk/trav/camp/mortalcoil/reidan.htm
http://tml.travellercentral.com/archive/122001/msg01000.html

Sinbad Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:04:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <F23s0jee6y24SSZV7Qb00003530@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>

At 04:49 AM 2/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
>There have been several comments about the Hawaiian shirt. I always 
>thought that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of the more colorful (pun 
>intended) quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on page 25 of JTAS #9 
>showing a bearded man in a baseball cap with a "staple" gun pistol wearing 
>a Hawaiian shirt. (I always wondered if it was meant to be Marc.) The 
>signature on the drawing is "c 1980 Paul Jaquays (sp?)". The sketch is in 
>black and white, but the shirt is drawn in red. I've seen this sketch 
>reproduced in other Traveller books.

So there is.  While Jaquays is *not* my favorite person in the field for 
many reasons (ask me about the Central Casting books some time at a Con 
when I've had a few.. you'll get an earful!) This does seem to establish 
that the Hawaiian shirt has survived.  No wonder The Rule of Man fell.

You know who would love these things?  The Vargr.  Hell, the probably make 
most of the shirts sold in the Coreward portions of the Imperium.  Probably 
called Vargr shirts there.  I can picture fraternities having Vargr shirt 
parties.

>If I ever make it to one of the Traveller gatherings, I was planning on 
>wearing a Hawaiian shirt per this sketch.

We'll make one of the con parties the Vargr fashion show.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:13:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:13:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <00b001c1b777$bc370c40$9a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217110443.009ff5e0@mindspring.com>

At 03:37 PM 2/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
>He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling Equatorial
>Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather than serious
>participation.

Then he could have DQ'd like the others and enjoyed his holiday.  Instead 
he tried.  And how many associates of dictators work as pool boys?

And did that have anything to with what he did?  Or do you just like 
dissing other people's accomplishments?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 19:45:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:45:30 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #167
References: <200202171110.g1HBAQ901241@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <003201c1b7eb$a91f8fa0$9ca45940@dixienet.com>

Foreven called Hollis (Foreven 2523, A370642-C)From: "Robert
ndrk"<rkondrk@hotmail.com>
Subject: Two Landgrab Questions

Any info on this, sector?subsector, path to SM Sector, Core Sectors
is also wanted by me.......John Strain

missinjn@dixie-net.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 21:24:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:24:09 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Naval Assignment Definitions
Message-ID: <18f.37defcc.29a17979@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/02 5:16:14 AM Central Standard Time, David offers 
some opinions as to Naval Assignment definitions:
   Thanks very much for the input. Anyone else, feel free to give any sort of 
input :)
   Thanks again :)
  -Ken-



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Feb 17 21:27:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:27:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEOFCAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm claiming Biter, in the Sword Worlds Subsector

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 00:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:26:09 +1100
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1b812$dd1fb790$9307b286@Shane>

In the spirit of morbid overanalysis, I'll just offer an observation of my
own.  I'm sure this matter was not addressed deliberately by the image's
Creator.  Not on any conscious level, anyway.

Is it just me, or does the halo of sun behind the human combatant's
(artist's) head have disturbingly biblical overtones?
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Do ya believe in the Messiah..?
Well, do ya?
Punk?
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 00:51:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:51:11 +0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <F30aYY61LEdyt3cew8k000126cb@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "Unfortunately, someone subsequently bothered to check who he was."

     "He was from a family associated with the dictatorship ruling 
Equatorial Guinea, and his presence at the Olympics was a junket, rather 
than serious participation."


Mr. Bradley,

      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up on 
a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some Third 
World Thugocracy for their votes.
     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about 
what's in it for us!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 01:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:21:15 +1100
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <OFC38545A4.0F7CB538-ONCA256B64.0005EDFD@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Michael asked:
>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I have some at Beowulf Down, at Tavonni Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> 
Hyphen's Combat Rules ==> Weapons Tables ==> Weapons Tables. (Sorry it's 
buried so far in; maybe I should pretend I'm a good Solomani and "uplift" 
it?  ;-)

The entries marked as "UPDATED" will have at least one weapon that's 
available as a DGP-style equipment sheet, written up as a PDF file. For 
example, the "Le Mat" revolver in "Early Firearms", or the Gauss Rifle 
under "Rifles".

There's also some battledress available, again in DGP-style format but 
this time as a zipped Word file. Look in Tavonni Specialities ==> 
Menelvagor Ltd ==> Imported Goods.

Finally, another item that will undoubtably become important (since you 
insist on pursuing this line of enquiry) is also available as an Imported 
Good: the *medikit*.

;-)  ;-) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 01:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:48:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <F30aYY61LEdyt3cew8k000126cb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:51 AM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:

>      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up 
> on a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some 
> Third World Thugocracy for their votes.
>     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about 
> what's in it for us!

You have to kidding.  Hell, the only reason there were cameras running was 
a technical rehearsal for a later event!

I can't believe how some people think!  An amazing thing happened, the 
world embraced this guy who did something he had never done before in front 
of a sellout crowd and did his best.  Can we accept it at that, and admire 
the guts it took to actually swim?  Or must we tear down every 
accomplishment looking for something bad?  Hell, JFK got a medal for the 
PT-109 incident, and all you can do is gleefully recite who he was sleeping 
with back in the States!

Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250 
meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But 
here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and we compete 
in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It will 
also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under those 
conditions?

Let me explain something sir, there are dozens of ways he could have DQ'd 
and just enjoyed the trip.  He could have taken cold medicine and failed a 
drug test.  He could have dived before the start.  Hell, he could have just 
not bothered to show up!  All of the these would remove him from the 
competition.

But he didn't.  He did show up.  He put on his trunks.  He got on the 
block.  And he swam.

He swam, Larsen.  He swam like his life depended on it.  It was awkward as 
hell, but he did a racing turn, and headed back, visibly tired.  He could 
have stopped moving and ended it, but he didn't.  Instead, he swam.  When 
he finally reached the end of the pool, he slapped the wall with all the 
gusto of the Thorpedo.

It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little 
information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since 
1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual 
relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was 
once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a car 
loan, and have polyamorous relationships.

There, when the book comes out, if anybody praises it, you can diss my 
achievement with some ammo.  After all, it isn't the achievement that 
matters, it is everything about the person's life that matters.

To everybody else, sorry about the rant, but when I read this I felt my 
blood pressure shoot up about fifty points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 02:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:11:23 +1100
Subject: [TML] Ship's monkey
Message-ID: <OF1B3FCEA3.15AF7BA0-ONCA256B64.000A6EBA@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce commented on John Groth's find:
>>Further, the monkey might be able to do taxes in an hour (when suitably
>>nourished).
>>
>>http://www.monkeybagel.com/monkeybagel.html
>
>Ohhh.....my.....ghodd.....my keyboard..it's, it's GONE man!
>
>It just vanished when the coffee hit it....how will I get the blast 
>marks off the wall...and I need new sinuses, too...
>
>see: http://www.monkeybagel.com/pumas.html

The other page that might be of interest to Doug, in particular, is:
        http://www.monkeybagel.com/culture/food.html

However, since the link from that page to the product under discussion is 
broken, try here once you've visited the first link:
        http://www.peppermints.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 03:01:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:01:47 +1100
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c1b828$9af03280$9307b286@Shane>

Mr Berry admitted:
> It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was
> once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a
car
> loan, and have polyamorous relationships.

I dunno, man.  Maybe it's the PR officer in me talking, but I'd call these
things *good* publicity.  :P
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "Unleash your Inner Marketer" - Tapes now available
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 03:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:22:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <013e01c1b828$9af03280$9307b286@Shane>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020217221840.017843e8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:01 PM 2/18/2002 +1100, Shane Slamet wrote:
>Mr Berry admitted:
> > It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> > information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> > 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> > relationships while still in the service.  I used to use marijuana.  I was
> > once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have defaulted on a
>car
> > loan, and have polyamorous relationships.
>
>I dunno, man.  Maybe it's the PR officer in me talking, but I'd call these
>things *good* publicity.  :P


Hell Man!  I'm amazed the DNC has not approached Mr. Berry to talk him up 
for running for Congress.
With his demographics, he could carry the SF district in landslide.

Excuse me please, James Carville was on Meet the Press this morning.  I may 
not agree with him on much, but *DAMN*, that man is good!
I'm gonna have to watch "The War Room" again (yes, I am enough of a poly 
geek to own "The War Room" on DVD.)


>_____________________
>Shane K. Slamet --- "Unleash your Inner Marketer" - Tapes now available
>s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 04:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:12:13 +0900
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
In-Reply-To: <200201241220_MC3-EF42-CCA@compuserve.com>
References: <200201241220_MC3-EF42-CCA@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <13111341024.20020218131213@greimann.de>

Woo-hoo!  I  have  just  won  the  old "Traveller's  Digest:  Visit to
Antiquity" on the german E-Bay. How cool is that?
Sadly, I lost my bid on the "Atlas" though...

-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 04:23:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:23:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] QSDS
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217202247.025d41c0@mail.verizon.net>

Derek,

I need to pick your brain on QSDS offlist. Could you send an address I 
could use to chuckmcknight@yahoo.com?

Thanks!

Charles


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 05:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:42:27 +0900
Subject: [TML] New Force
In-Reply-To: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>
References: <F143KxDDpRl2MG6voUr00009d6e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <18116756262.20020218144227@greimann.de>



Am  14N214, las ich folgendes:

> From: "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au>

>      "Speaking of unorthodox design philosophies, can anyone recommend a 
> good Trav scenario which involves lots of incomprehensible Ancients 
> artifacts?"


> Mr. Slamet,

>      There's a DGP Four Knights adventure set on Antiquity.  While DGP's 
> cinematic nugget format (blecch) might not be your cuppa, you could mine the 
> material for a nice selection of odd Ancients artifacts.
Waiting for mine to arrive in the mail as i type...




-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***, Happy Camper!
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 07:16:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:16:37 -0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c1b851$3e9b2020$aad3883e@fabian>


> Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250
> meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But
> here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and we
compete
> in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It
will
> also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under
those
> conditions?

His getting there may have been an accident of birth and who he knew, but
it was a worthy achievement all the same. Regardless of his connections,
he competed in the true spirit of teh Olympics, and I salute him.

Doug, I'd happily take you on in that shooting match. But then, I have
competed in archery before, so does that disqualify me? I don't mind the
cameras though, as I consider myself unreasonably brave when it comes to
making a fool of myself.

--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 15:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:22:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3C711C2E.F4F1EAC7@sitraka.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> That's if you think TL indicates the highest available to anyone on the
> world. 

No - the opposite of that was kind of my point. My question 
was more along the lines of "why would any world NOT have TTL C
medical equipment, regardless of the world's listed tech level?"

> I've always interpreted it to mean the TL of the majority of the
> population. Private hospitals reserved for the elite and military hardware
> for the elite's bodyguards and imported gravspeeders doesn't affect the
> life of the majority of the population. It most especially doesn't
> indicate the repair and support network a casual visitor to the world can
> expect to avail himself of (which is what I think TL is _for_, at least in
> a meta-sense; as a player I like to know what sort of equipment I can
> expect to be able to buy and as a GM I like to know what sort of equipment
> I can have my everyday locals tote.

Fair enough. But for certain things, like medical equipment, why would 
it ever be built on-world, when the infrastructure to create TTL 7, 8
or 9 medical equipment probably costs more then simply shipping in
everything froma  TTL C world in triplicate?

Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average 
Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control

Ethan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 15:09:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217102430.009eb370@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020218150907.66940.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com>

I always thought the Hawaiian shirts were an homage to
the patron saint of grubby engineering assistants,
Bret from 'Alien' (played quite convincingly by Harry
Dean Stanton).
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 04:49 AM 2/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >There have been several comments about the Hawaiian
> shirt. I always 
> >thought that Hawaiian shirts were canon and one of
> the more colorful (pun 
> >intended) quirks of the OTU. There is a sketch on
> page 25 of JTAS #9 
> >showing a bearded man in a baseball cap with a
> "staple" gun pistol wearing 
> >a Hawaiian shirt. (I always wondered if it was
> meant to be Marc.) 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 16:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:38:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>

Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
anything, it's been getting worse!
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 17:46:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:46:06 GMT
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in the
Message-ID: <200202181746.g1IHk6k20495@mailbag.com>

Thank you for your "rant". Saves me the trouble of trying to write something 
equally coherent. The IOC is scuzzy at it's best, but wrong use does not 
nullify right use - in this case honest effort by athletes. 

William 
--
Part of the skill of being a sysadim is being able to BS long enough to look 
something up or RTFM.

Bill Bradford




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 17:59:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:32  0000
Subject: [TML] Anyone out there?
Message-ID: <ANGIBFOFLIIKIBAA@angelfire.com>

I've not had any traffic on the list for several hours. Is this because it's been quiet or because I've accidentally blocked it from my inbox?

Can anyone tell me?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 18:52:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:52:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in  the
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEMHCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Well said Doug.  You said what I had decided not to (having spent 5 minutes
calming down).

Sounds like an interesting life, I would buy a copy; now get writing.

I would compete with you, I'd lose (though not too badly having shot a lot a
long time ago) but the airfare would be prohibitive, when I win the lottery
I'll make a point of it.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand.  If he comes to you empty handed,
greet him the same wway.  But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on
your walls and cast stones down on him. - Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 18 February 2002 01:48
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
> the
>
>
> At 12:51 AM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >      Yet another deliberately manufactured "feel good" moment served up
> > on a platter for the moronic minions of the press as a pay-off to some
> > Third World Thugocracy for their votes.
> >     The IOC... It's not about the sports, or the athletes, it's about
> > what's in it for us!
>
> You have to kidding.  Hell, the only reason there were cameras
> running was
> a technical rehearsal for a later event!
>
> I can't believe how some people think!  An amazing thing happened, the
> world embraced this guy who did something he had never done
> before in front
> of a sellout crowd and did his best.  Can we accept it at that,
> and admire
> the guts it took to actually swim?  Or must we tear down every
> accomplishment looking for something bad?  Hell, JFK got a medal for the
> PT-109 incident, and all you can do is gleefully recite who he
> was sleeping
> with back in the States!
>
> Could any of you do this?  Anybody want to take me on in shooting?  250
> meter range, 10cm targets.  I can get the center almost every time.  But
> here is the catch: you can't ever have held a rifle before, and
> we compete
> in front of 19,000 gun nuts expecting a world-class competition.  It will
> also be televised.  Does anyone here think they could compete under those
> conditions?
>
> Let me explain something sir, there are dozens of ways he could have DQ'd
> and just enjoyed the trip.  He could have taken cold medicine and
> failed a
> drug test.  He could have dived before the start.  Hell, he could
> have just
> not bothered to show up!  All of the these would remove him from the
> competition.
>
> But he didn't.  He did show up.  He put on his trunks.  He got on the
> block.  And he swam.
>
> He swam, Larsen.  He swam like his life depended on it.  It was
> awkward as
> hell, but he did a racing turn, and headed back, visibly tired.  He could
> have stopped moving and ended it, but he didn't.  Instead, he swam.  When
> he finally reached the end of the pool, he slapped the wall with all the
> gusto of the Thorpedo.
>
> It's an open secret that I'm writing now.  So let me give you a little
> information about myself.  I've voted Democrat in every election since
> 1984.  I have been investigated for domestic abuse.  I had homosexual
> relationships while still in the service.  I used to use
> marijuana.  I was
> once a member of the California Socialist Party.  I have
> defaulted on a car
> loan, and have polyamorous relationships.
>
> There, when the book comes out, if anybody praises it, you can diss my
> achievement with some ammo.  After all, it isn't the achievement that
> matters, it is everything about the person's life that matters.
>
> To everybody else, sorry about the rant, but when I read this I felt my
> blood pressure shoot up about fifty points.
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 18:47:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:47:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
References: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3C714C3A.3050300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 

Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it, 
it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still 
resounds in peoples minds.

The ROM I-net started as an informal usage by naval personnell of the 
existing Terran Navy's  Advanced Piloted Reconnaisance Administration's 
network of couriers, put in place to provide a secure command and 
control network for the advancing Terran fleets.

With the end of the war and the scramble to administer the sprawling 
remnants of the Violani Empire, the ARPA net was pressed into service, 
carrying aofficial, and in increasing volume, unofficial communications 
among the various Naval staff.

While commercial use of the courier system was frowned upon, bith 
officially and unofficially, non-administrative use increased rapidly as 
researchers, administrators and some luckily connected merchants found 
the advantages of regular if not rapid communications.

Network traffic increased steadily until the Emperor, in order to reduce 
the load on Naval resources, officially converted the ARPA net into an 
interstellar network for administrators and academicians, who soon 
implemented better communications protocols, faster (and larger) packet 
ships and a rational addressing and message transmission system, instead 
of the old naval tradition of exploding a large coded sequence of flares 
upon entry into a system, leading to it's odd name of !Bang Addressing.

Useage of the net steadily grew until a pivotal day druing the riegn of 
Emperor Shrub 1, when a pair of unscrupulous merchanters, hiring the 
services of a rogue programmer, managed to attach a 5-minute video 
advertising their services in an upcoming Terran Citizenship Lottery to 
poor Vilani subjects. Overnight the traffic load went up 10-fold, as 
their programmer didn't follow protocol and hundreds of millions of 
copies of this material was sent out.

For three months, until savvy Inet admins managed to write deletion 
routines, nearly all the normal traffic was consumed by either the 
message or angry demands that the perpetators be caught and punished.

They wer cought rather quickly, however, it turned out, that the only 
punishment legally applicable to them was to cut pff their I-net access.

The floodgates had been closed, but the pressures were building. 
Influential Mechant concerns, with the ear of Emperor Gates IV convinced 
him that the I-net was a resource that should be available to all, not 
just an academic and military elite. IN the end, their appeals won him 
over, and one fateful day He decreed the I-Net 'Open for Business' and 
allowed the use of .Biz addresses in the I-Net.

Within one standard year, building new packet ships was consuming 30% of 
the Empire's GDP, and was growing. Up to 90% of the available space in 
each was immediately consumed with advertising...for everything from 
legitimate goods to pyramid schemes. It is said there's still a ghost 
packet ship out there delivering it's message of 'Make Money Fast!' to 
any who dare venture into it's haunted databanks...

Wild schemes to ship dirt halfway across the Empire flourished because 
gullible investors believed things like 'This is, like, the new 
busiiness paradigm, D00D!We have to build mindshare!' for such 
improbable business enterpreneurs as the famous Dirt.Biz CEO, who, in 
the end turned out to be nothing more than a sock puppet manipulated by 
a certain 'James T. Whipsnade'*.

Soon 85% of the total economy of the Empire was tied in one fashion or 
another to the Great I-Net boom, until someone in Arcturus said "Wait a 
minute!!! The shipping charges ALONE on dirt are insane!!! WHY would any 
sane person buy what they could find in their own yards?"

Confidence in the intersteallar economy, based as it was on dirt and a 
peculiar calendar known as 'Swatch Time', started to fall, and within a 
month the fall had developed into full-blown panic.

An Aldebaran branch of the Imperial Mint declined to accept payments 
from the Home branch stating that "They are all a bunch of greedhead 
Dot-Biz Vulture Capitalists" and the fall of the ROM began.

*When asked about the remarkable similarity in names, Larsen Whipsnade, 
cornered on the set of the latest "Road to.." film said "I plead the 
LAy! I know nothink! The statute of limitations has long run out on 
that! Go away! Is that a supoena in your hand??"


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44AA@compuserve.com>

Anyone else have this excellent supplement? I'm trying to create a program
for it to randomly generate cargoes and I'm wondering if the units and tons
are printed backwards on page 36, Generating Cargos?

For example, for Desert Cargo of Stilsuits:

Is that 1d6 x5 tons of 1 suit apiece? 
Or 1d6 suits at 5 tons apiece? 

How about stellar power systems? 
Is that 1d6 units at 5 tons apeice
Or 1d6 tons for 5 different units? 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:39:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:39:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hey...
Message-ID: <OF50497617.D0A41B4F-ON85256B64.006AF853@pheaa.org>

Been away for a while. got laid off about last august. finally got a job on
the east coast so made the trip from San Francisco to here.

i finally have been able to get a shot at GMing traveller again. However
I'm teaching Traveller to a bunch of new players (again). these are DnD
folks so they will be in for a shock. 1 is really learning from the ground
up. she (and yes i did say she) has never seen any sci-fi. not even star
wars.

So I'm wondering does anyone have a document that has list of common terms
and explanations that i could print out to help familiarize them with
things in the universe. i was writing my own but thought heck maybe someone
has one already and why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to.

for Example.

Parsec:  A unit of measure for interstellar space equal to the distance to
an object having a parallax of one second or to 3.26 light-years

Misjump: A malfunction of a starships jump drive resulting in 1 of 2
conditions. 1st is a  jump of indefinite duration, direction and distance.
2nd and far worse is the destruction of the ship and all hands onboard.

Secondly and much more important I'm using Lotus Notes here at work and I'm
trying to find out if this is sending in plain text. Listmom said he got it
in plain text but i really want to be sure. don't want to be spamming
people with a bunch of Mime stuff.

if this is sending Mime if anyone knows a why to set Lotus notes to send
text only would be much appreciated.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44AE@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>> Survey/Science:
Not much use to columns for stuff that isn't listed, is there?  I'd put any
science sensors under 'sensors'<

I really like the approach of Basic, Advanced and Military sensors 'sets'.
That way, if a Gearhead wants to add more detail, he can, but if a
Storyteller wants to just say add a modifier to Comm System rolls.+1 for
Advanced, +2 for Miltiary the stats work for this as well. 

Personally I know that there are *some* advanced systems I'd like to use
and some I wouldn't. A modular approach to detaling systems would work
well.

Same for Life Support. I allow life support to be 'sacrificed' to take
damage instead of other systems (ala Star Trek), but I dont count boxes of
food. I just reduce the number of bodies the current life support will
sustain and/or the range the system will last. Much simpler. 

They had a nice shrink wrapped box of Aftermath, Star Explorer, Daredevil
and Flashing Blades and all the excellent Flashing Blades module - which
after seeing the "Count of Monte Christo" I was dying to run!

Also copies of Bushido and many Aftermath and V&V modules. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44B4@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>I certainly haven't seen a logical proof that it's impossible.

Well, since you are a self-proclaimed Gearhead it may make it difficult to
see that for a Storyteller, they ARE mutually exclusive. 

You can't both want a system that takes a minimum of 7 hours to build a
scoutship and want a system that takes 15 minutes to want a spaceship!

>>>>>I see both points of view.  And believe that referees should have the
>>>>>freedom to choose their approaches.  
>>>>>Sometimes (always, for some people) you really need to know surface
area in order to
>>>>>be able to decide what the in-game ramifications are of that surface
area.

Well, I think there are already plenty of systems available for these types
of players. 

>>>>>He periodically quits our longest-running "Traveller" game because the
>>>>>referee's comprehension of firearms is so dim that it just drives him
crazy.

>>>>>So, the game rules that are ultimately published should try to make as
many
>>>>>as possible of the above sorts of people happy.  

I totally disagree. I dont think that's possible and I dont think its
desirable. A game that caters to both extreme ends of the hobby will not
make a good game. 

They are certainly entitled to join a like-minded group and have fun. But
no rule system should be geared for them in mind. That's not what
roleplaying is about by any definition. IMHO. 

>>>>>The most obvious approach is a multitiered set of design rules.  

Again, since this isn't logically possible I dont see what your getting at.
Are you saying that GURPS Lite is a 'simpler' verison of GURPS? 

>>>>>This requires a publisher who
>>>>>is willing to make the leap that all customers have the capability to
use
>>>>>the software as part of their game.  

LOL! I can see the text on the box! "Finally, I roleplaying game that let's
you concentrate on the story instead of the rules! You must have Windows 98
and a 486 Pentium and 36 Megs of ram and a 4 Gig hard drive to use. To
download patches over your internet connect, you must have a 333 MHz modern
and a Passport account..."

As a Storyteller, I wouldn't USE a system that came with software. If the
game *needs* software to work, it's obviously not designed for
roleplaying!!

>>>>>Caveat, the dang things had BETTER be bug free, or else you'll
>>>>>ruin marketing for this product and any future ones.  

If the *book* isn't bug free, what chance does the software have of being
bug free! :/

>>>>>I refuse to describe gearheads and "roleplayers" as being at different
ends of the same
>>>>>spectrum.  They're completely different spectrums from each other
really.
>>>>>right there.  How gearheady of me to go on like this, lol.

I think your misunderstanding the way I'm attempting to use the term. I
specifically MEAN "The opposite of a gearhead". I'm using the term
Storyteller to mean specificially somone is NOT a gearhead. 

Someone who just wants to tell stories and have fun, regardless of the
physics involved. This does not mean that the system should have no
versimilitude - but that's very different from realism or complexity. 

>>>>>Again, depends on the player personality type of the referee whether
they
>>>>>need the gearhead detail to answer this.  And the other players in the
game
>>>>>will also vary on how much gearheading they want in the answers.

Well, I belief the origional statement I was replaying to was that you CANT
roleplay without this answer. I'm just saying that for some of us, it's
very possible. 

>>>>>Not sure I follow your point here.  What I think you're saying is a
>>>>>gearhead system, by definition, involves lots of factors.  The simple
>>>>>system, by definition, involves very few factors.

That's not it. I think your looking at it as "lots" vs. "few". And that's
not it. The distinction between the gearhead system and the simple system
(to me) is "most of the realistic" vs. "the right" factors. 

The gearhead system has all the factors that are realistic. The simple
system has all the factors that need game mechanics, but none of the
factors that dont. 

>>>>>If that's what you're saying, then I immediately have a few issues to
think
>>>>>about.  

But that is not what I am saying. 

>>>>> I don't know that there will be widespread agreement and don't
>>>>>see a way to devise definitive proofs.

Well, I'm not saying that will ever happen. I simply think we can come a
little closer than QSDS and TSDS, that's all. 

>>>>>Someone well practiced with mathematics probably won't have a
difficult
>>>>>time doing this.  

My whole point is that a mathematical approach is mostly the wrong approach
anyway. Though having attempting to simply volume/mass equations myself,
I'll admit there has to be an underlying strength to the formulas. Steve
Jackson could do it if he wanted to!

>>>>>If I understand you correctly, then we agree on this.  Gearheads
>>>>>**require** more details to be happy with their game, nongearheads are
>>>>>content with ignoring the less important-seeming details and wild
>>>>>approximations of other details.  Just so long as somebody makes up
some
>>>>>kind of answer, let's get back to the action.

Exactly, and I just happen to think that the Gearheads have plenty of ship
design systems that work for them! Or the opposite, which is that they will
NEVER have enough ship design systems to make them happy! ;]

But either way, the Storytellers don't seem to have as many choices - since
Book 2, High Guard and QSDS dont cover ALL types of Traveller ships, they
dont count IMHO. 

>>>>>>>No it wont! A ship of 100 tons can have 5 turrets. I'm okay with
that. Make
>>>>>>>>it any shape you want! I'm okay with that. Which is fundamentally
>>>>>>>>incompatbile with any design system that DOES take that into
account. 
>>>>>>>Hmmm.  I think sooner or later it will.  But how long it will take
will
>>>>>>>depends on how many ships you design in your lifetime.  

How many games require a seperate Arm Strength from the Strength stat? Not
that many (but there *are* a few!). 

>>>>>>>Some referees then add to or modify the existing rules to suit
themselves.  Possibly because they just like doing
>>>>>>>that sort of thing.  

Yes, most GM's consider that "part" of the hobby. Every GM has a little bit
of gearhead in them. After all, when you can't play as often as you like,
its FUN to *think* about playing. And this tinkering is part of it. 

>>>>>>>The awkward task for the original game
>>>>>>>designer is choosing how to make the game appeal to the part of the
>>>>>>>spectrum that they want to appeal to.

Sure, and the designer will most likely choose the one that appeals to
themselves most. I like Traveller because the CT/MT range is about exactly
the amount of detail that strikes a very good medium balance. 

Some people will like the GURPS end of the spectrum. Some will like the
Space Opera end of the spectrum. That's okay, too. 

>>>>>>>Exactly.  To each his own.  
>>>>>>>Although I've seen some groups who don't realize this,
>>>>>>>becoming contests between which player can out-rules-lawyer everyone
else,
>>>>>>>with the referee fighting to keep up.

Exactly! But frankly, I see this happening more with the gearheads than the
storytellers. My favorite is the story of the guy who stormed out of a
Traveller game because he couldn't abide by an ice-covered asteroid! Of
course, science later proved that wasn't such a wild idea after all.....

>>>>>>>A good set of rules will allow both gearhead and simple to coexist
and be
>>>>>>>compatible.  

Well, last month I was bombarded with email saying that I shouldn't rag on
D&D because "No system is perfect". The system your describing sure sounds
like the "lion and the lamb" system! 

But I don't think a *perfect* system is possible. I dont WANT a system that
works well for Gearheads AND works well for Storytellers. I want a system
that works well for Storytellers! 

Given the choice between both systems - I'd chose the one most likely to
want to be played by *other* Storytellers!

A good set of rules will also do other things to make people
happy, which are unrelated to this.  Being all inclusive is not the sole
criterium for judging a set of rules.  Therefore, it is not necessarily
true that more inclusive equals better rules.

>>>>>> I think the only significant difference between the parties in this
debate right now is whether it is
>>>>>>possible for complex, gearhead design systems to coexist in the same
rules
>>>>>>with simple, nongearhead systems.  You say no, he says yes.  If
either of
>>>>>>you can prove or demonstrate your point to the other, the debate on
that
>>>>>>should be settled.  Or you may want to agree to disagree, who's to
say?

Agreed. And I've certainly tried to keep focused on that central issue, so
if anyone is offended or bothered by anything that's not related to this
central point,  please forgive me, but I agree that this is really the main
concern. 

I've tried to give specific examples of this for help in those attempting a
'simpler' system than the ones we've seen so far, but the bottom line is
that I doubt anyone who WANTS ONLY a simple system, beleifs that it's
possible for 1 system to work for both. No would a Storyteller (the
opposite of a gearhead) want to use such a system. 

So whether it's possible is irrelevant if it's not desirable by its
audience. 

I'm certainly willing to look at all of the attempts - just cause that's
fun. Heck, I'm also building simple systems myself for fun. 

>I'm just asking for one more choice!
>>>>>>You lost me there.  I thought you have been saying that the gearheads
are
>>>>>>asking for more choice, but you think an excess of choice is
unworkable?

What I'm saying is that the gearheads seem to have plenty of systems to
choose from. FF&S1, FF&S2, GURPS: Vehicles, GURPS: Traveller, High Guard,
etc. 

But there doesn't seem to be too many systems for Storytellers. Book 2. 

>>>>>>(i.e., you think it is impossible to write rules that include both
the
>>>>>>gearhead and the simple choices?)

Yes. I do think it's impossible to do that. That's like saying that you can
devise a "sport" that will appeal to all football, baseball, basketball and
soccer fans and they will give up their other games to play this one
particular "Sport" that suits them all!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:15:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <rcb27uccs23bf8ka72ko9qmqqs55uud7bc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B89692C9.26A8F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/18/02 8:38 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 


I've changed the digest out going address.  I'll take another look at what's
getting through.

I I can't solve the problem, I guess I'll have to recompile sendmail with
spam filtering.  Stand by.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44A9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
Depends.  What are you looking for?  Specifically Traveller, or is mixed
genre
for data mining okay?  <

Mixed Genre is fine with me. It's just that none of the Traveller books are
particularly well illustrated and *someone* is going to ask me what the
heck Jack or Mesh looks like! 

Where is Tod Glen's web site? 

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>Bloody hell!  Forgot other portions of my own website :)  I've also got:<

Nice! Thank you!


Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 19:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202181432_MC3-F27A-44BE@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>FF&S2 was for T4. FF&S1 was the one that went with TNE.
>>

I never got around to getting that one!

>>>Gah. That's not a sufficient answer at all for many, many groups. 
>>>Besides half the time it'll be asked way back when the character's 
>>>first arming up and you have no idea whether it'll be better for the 
>>>story for the gun to be concealable or not.

Player: Can I hide my gun under my coat?
GM: No, they'll automatically spot it if you try. 
Player: Sorry, that's not a sufficient answer.

This doesn't sound like a rule problem to me!

Whatever rules you decide to use to make that decision are going to be
arbitrary. Your just setting an artificial level of 'what amount of
arbitrary' you agree to suspend your disbelief. 

Your going to pick the same rules before it happens are you'll pick when it
happens. Your decision on which rules to allow IS the decision on what's
best for the story, no matter when you make it. 

>>>Sure. I see your point. I just think that simple or not so simple a 
>>>design system should cough up plenty of numbers - they're easier to 
>>>ignore than add later.

I can accept that. I think we're actually talking about two different
thing. I'm talking about how simple it is to create those numbers. NOT how
many numbers the system spits out. 

But at the same time, some numbers are harder to ignore than other. That's
also a story-based decision that you can make well before a game. The
stories I tell are easier if those numbers aren't there because they can
distract the players into using the machines instead of their characters. 

Most sci-fi dramas make the same choice. No matter how good the technology
is - its always the characters decisions that drive the story. 

>>>> meters. But I would hate it if my players said "HEY! You can't use
>>>> Starfuries because they're volume wont' support Level IV Plasma
>>>> Projectors!" One is good for the story. The other is bad for the
story. 
>>>>>>>>>To me the last one's embarrasing - it implies I screwed up
somewhere.

I hear that some Star Trek 'nitpickers' actually watch the show like that -
looking for technical inconsistences. To me, that audience is the
embarrasment - not the director!

>>>High Guard, of course - it fits in nicely. :)

LOL! Yeah, well, maybe it's not so bad after all!

Michael 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:00:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Anyone out there?
Message-ID: <20020218.130011.-23855.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Don't worry about the long weekend, presidents day in the USA and all.

Were alive and kicking though many have opted to spend time with their
families and/or loved ones rather than us.

Turokan


On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:32  0000 "Andrew Whincup"
<shanhat@angelfire.com> writes:
> I've not had any traffic on the list for several hours. Is this 
> because it's been quiet or because I've accidentally blocked it from 
> my inbox?
> 
> Can anyone tell me?
> ---
> Shan Andy
> 

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 20:50:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:50:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
In-Reply-To: <200202181509.g1IF9DJ26552@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir;

<snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:44:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] Interesting Architecture[maybe OT,but neat]
Message-ID: <3C71214E.27704.17251BD@localhost>

>http://www.arcspace.com/architects/DillerScofidio/blur_building/

I think its a colossal waste of money, but it is kinda neat, especially the blur suits


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:05:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
Message-ID: <20020218.130533.-23855.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Douglass Berry, did you do it?

It was on the news today that video's were being made at some malls.

Turokan

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 21:31:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:31:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Hey...
Message-ID: <20020218.163121.-247697.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> So I'm wondering does anyone have a document that has list of common 
> terms and explanations that i could print out to help familiarize them 
> with things in the universe. i was writing my own but thought heck
maybe 
> someone has one already and why reinvent the wheel when you don't have
to.

It's not Traveller-specific (in fact, it's more anime themed), but for
general SF jargon, you can raid and plunder from the following site: 
http://members.aol.com/LordZox/dict.html


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:07:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:07:34 -0000
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <3C714C3A.3050300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEMKCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Keyboard Kill !!!!!!!  :)  :)  :)

brilliant

Peter 'Beest' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
How do I know that anyone is human? I have to take their word for it.
- -Sartre

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
> Sent: 18 February 2002 18:47
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
>
>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> > anything, it's been getting worse!
> > --
> > Jeff Zeitlin
> > jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> >
>
> Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on
> line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it,
> it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still
> resounds in peoples minds.
>
> The ROM I-net started as an informal usage by naval personnell of the
> existing Terran Navy's  Advanced Piloted Reconnaisance Administration's
> network of couriers, put in place to provide a secure command and
> control network for the advancing Terran fleets.
>
> With the end of the war and the scramble to administer the sprawling
> remnants of the Violani Empire, the ARPA net was pressed into service,
> carrying aofficial, and in increasing volume, unofficial communications
> among the various Naval staff.
>
> While commercial use of the courier system was frowned upon, bith
> officially and unofficially, non-administrative use increased rapidly as
> researchers, administrators and some luckily connected merchants found
> the advantages of regular if not rapid communications.
>
> Network traffic increased steadily until the Emperor, in order to reduce
> the load on Naval resources, officially converted the ARPA net into an
> interstellar network for administrators and academicians, who soon
> implemented better communications protocols, faster (and larger) packet
> ships and a rational addressing and message transmission system, instead
> of the old naval tradition of exploding a large coded sequence of flares
> upon entry into a system, leading to it's odd name of !Bang Addressing.
>
> Useage of the net steadily grew until a pivotal day druing the riegn of
> Emperor Shrub 1, when a pair of unscrupulous merchanters, hiring the
> services of a rogue programmer, managed to attach a 5-minute video
> advertising their services in an upcoming Terran Citizenship Lottery to
> poor Vilani subjects. Overnight the traffic load went up 10-fold, as
> their programmer didn't follow protocol and hundreds of millions of
> copies of this material was sent out.
>
> For three months, until savvy Inet admins managed to write deletion
> routines, nearly all the normal traffic was consumed by either the
> message or angry demands that the perpetators be caught and punished.
>
> They wer cought rather quickly, however, it turned out, that the only
> punishment legally applicable to them was to cut pff their I-net access.
>
> The floodgates had been closed, but the pressures were building.
> Influential Mechant concerns, with the ear of Emperor Gates IV convinced
> him that the I-net was a resource that should be available to all, not
> just an academic and military elite. IN the end, their appeals won him
> over, and one fateful day He decreed the I-Net 'Open for Business' and
> allowed the use of .Biz addresses in the I-Net.
>
> Within one standard year, building new packet ships was consuming 30% of
> the Empire's GDP, and was growing. Up to 90% of the available space in
> each was immediately consumed with advertising...for everything from
> legitimate goods to pyramid schemes. It is said there's still a ghost
> packet ship out there delivering it's message of 'Make Money Fast!' to
> any who dare venture into it's haunted databanks...
>
> Wild schemes to ship dirt halfway across the Empire flourished because
> gullible investors believed things like 'This is, like, the new
> busiiness paradigm, D00D!We have to build mindshare!' for such
> improbable business enterpreneurs as the famous Dirt.Biz CEO, who, in
> the end turned out to be nothing more than a sock puppet manipulated by
> a certain 'James T. Whipsnade'*.
>
> Soon 85% of the total economy of the Empire was tied in one fashion or
> another to the Great I-Net boom, until someone in Arcturus said "Wait a
> minute!!! The shipping charges ALONE on dirt are insane!!! WHY would any
> sane person buy what they could find in their own yards?"
>
> Confidence in the intersteallar economy, based as it was on dirt and a
> peculiar calendar known as 'Swatch Time', started to fall, and within a
> month the fall had developed into full-blown panic.
>
> An Aldebaran branch of the Imperial Mint declined to accept payments
> from the Home branch stating that "They are all a bunch of greedhead
> Dot-Biz Vulture Capitalists" and the fall of the ROM began.
>
> *When asked about the remarkable similarity in names, Larsen Whipsnade,
> cornered on the set of the latest "Road to.." film said "I plead the
> LAy! I know nothink! The statute of limitations has long run out on
> that! Go away! Is that a supoena in your hand??"
>
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:25:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:25:59 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #168
References: <200202181509.g1IF9DJ26552@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <008801c1b8cb$40125660$10a35940@dixienet.com>

Spam Alert!         Ignore the following item.......  John Strain

Source:

> 
> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
> From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
> Subject: Preliminary introduction



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:16:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
References: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C718B30.7000200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> 
>>Dear Sir;
>>
> 
> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

'Twas spam, and only the Digest version got it, as I didn't see it...was 
this the 'Grieving Widow of the Former Military Dictator' version (my 
favorite) or (the newest version I've seen) 'The Oppressed Christian 
living under Rigid Islamic Sharia Law'?

(That one is going to sucker in BUCKETloads of people...:-(

The Grieving Widow one almost got a co-worker who is sweet but utterly 
brainless. "Oh, that poor lady' she was telling me. "Do you think I 
should help her?" SBB asked me.

After cleaning the coffee out of my sinuses, I asked SBB, if she read 
the part where the woman mentioned her husband 'The Former Military 
Ruler of Nigeria, ousted in a Coup and killed by Rebels' and asked SBB 
if she really thought helping former dictators' widows was such a worthy 
enterprise...


ObTrav: Surely there has to be a VAST commerce in con games in the 
3I...given the lazziez faire attitude of the 3I government, so long as 
you've greased the right noble palms and gotten off planet safely, you 
should be scot-free. Scams such as this, done via X-boat should be even 
better...

Eris, I know there is a highly effective, ruthless and invincible Bunco 
Squad in YTU so we'll never have to worry about *THAT* now, will we?

(It's probably really stupid to bring up things like this in front of 
your GM when you're searching for cargo and fares to pay the mortgage on 
the ship ;-)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:40:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] First Campaign Advice
In-Reply-To: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>
References: <BasiliX-1.0.4b-10129664193c60a413653ce@mail.isupportisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020218234018.2ec0caec.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Jeff Rients wrote:
> I'm a Traveller newbie armed with a copy of Deluxe Traveller's intro
> adventure "The Imperial Fringe".  For rules I have the Books 0-8
> Reprint, but I'm planning on using only the core rules (Books 1-3).
> I intend to use these materials to launch a new campaign in the next
> couple of weeks.  Before I set my players loose in the Spinward
> Marches, would anybody have any advice to offer?

Traveller is very open-ended (more so than many other games, non-SF games
in particular). If you use the character design system straight from the
books, you will get a very wide range of characters. Therefore, you might
want to limit the players' options a bit, in order to get a coherent
group.

Alternatively, you might want to do a more organized selection of
character types. In fantasy games, this would mean building a group
consisting of a fighter, a mage, a cleric, and a thief. Which is rather
boring.

Consider, however, that starships in Traveller require rather specialized
skills for a rather large number of people in order to operate. If your
PCs are the crew of a starship, they will have been selected to match
those criteria. Therefore, it does make sense to use this seemingly very
OOC method of character "profession" selection in Traveller.

Oh, and ask a lot of questions around here if you have any. There are a
lot of portable (and not so portable ;) Traveller encyclopedias subscribed
to this list.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 22:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:50:21 +0100
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <000a01c1ad1e$8f6639b0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020218235021.4959cedc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

n2sami wrote:
> 1. We have a system which has developed independent of external
> influence. 
> 2. It has 10s of billions of inhabitants. (Humans)
> 3. The region of space it inhabits is empty of other intelligent races
> and none of those that do exist have explored this region yet.
> 4. For 400 years these inhabitants have explored and developed their
> star system.
> 5. Recently government researchers have developed and successfully
> tested a J1-drive.
> 
> What happens next, do you think?

For fun (and for an interesting game)...

Spies from another government (or from an independent enterprise) gain
access to the technology.

> How long does the government maintain its monopoly on J-drives?

About 25 minutes  ;-)

Seriously, until they start producing it. At that point, too many
individuals are involved to keep details of the project from leaking out.

Yes, I know this wasn't the case with, for example, the A-bomb, but
information today is a lot more mobile.

> How far do the initial explorations journey from home?

Far enough to either find something valueable (in which case new
explorations will go further to find more valuable things).

Alternatively, far enough to run out of budget and find themselves a
cancelled project.

> What happens when independent enterprise gains j-drive technologies?

Bad Things (TM) could happen, since fighting (trade wars) could break out
in deep space. Without any real regulation, things could escalate very
quickly.

Also, independent enterprises are probably a lot less likely to share
information on their discoveries with others.

For ideas, do a web search for "gold rush"... relative lawlessness,
frontier mining, boom towns...

Or look at my homepage (in the Traveller section), to see what my sick
mind came up with. Note: The homepage is currently down about 10-20% of
the time, due to me having only one computer.

http://spacejens.dhs.org/traveller/

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:37:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:37:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE:  Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <B896D051.1F81%jwwebb@earthlink.net>


> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
> anything, it's been getting worse!


Hey, I kind of liked that last one.  I've never seen outright mail fraud
aimed at pathetic suckers like that is was.  Interesting to me was that it
mentioned a "Mr. Wiseman" - suggestive, eh?  I think Whipsnade has some
competition.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:45:48 -0600
Subject: [TML] Final Cover Artwork for T20
References: <145.9971878.299f200a@aol.com> <200202152230040268.8C5419FB@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3C71922C.5080604@playnet.com>



Hunter Gordon wrote:

> 
> The face I believe though is that of the artist himself. At least comparing it with the bio pic on his webpage tends to make me think so, and I do know he has used his own image as a model for other sci-fi novel covers he has done.
> 
> Hunter


At least give him a haircut.

In general, I think an artist that puts himself so
boldy in an image he was hired to produce thinks
too much of his own looks and not enough of the
importance of the image.

The background of the image is nice, except for
the unsafely-small 'planks' - they sure don't
look like anything you'd reasonably use to board
a vehicle from.

The foreground, not so much.  Lost the photo of
the artist's face.  Lose the kitty patch on his
left breast.  Clean up the apparently cut&paste
wolf's head with a something similar that is more
in keeping with the background figures of the image,
which are nice.

Waay too busy an image.
Overall it says Star Wars, not Traveller.

Nevermind.  It's "final", right?
And we'll all buy a copy no matter what it looks
like.  Too bad it isn't just us that you have to
worry about.

-bloo


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:50:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:50:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
References: <E16cuit-0007c7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3C719352.307D241B@premier.net>



sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> linda_bongo@lycos.com wrote:
> >
> > Dear Sir;
> 
> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

I'd say the latter, since it apparently only showed up in the digest.

On the subject of the Nigerian Bank Scam, here's an amusing article from
SatireWire:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/scam.shtml

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 20:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fabian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:24:36 -0000
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0202170639190.29808-100000@ask.diku.dk> <3C711C2E.F4F1EAC7@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1b8d5$d14b4380$71d5883e@fabian>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Henry" <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>

> Fair enough. But for certain things, like medical equipment, why would
> it ever be built on-world, when the infrastructure to create TTL 7, 8
> or 9 medical equipment probably costs more then simply shipping in
> everything froma  TTL C world in triplicate?
>
> Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
> be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average
> Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control

Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
throughout the third world. However, the drugs companies prefer to keep
their products expensive to raise profits, among other reasons. We in the
'enlightened' world don't notice this because we are generally wealthy
enough to afford what we need, it doesn't directly affect us, and the
third world has no real voice in our media. The debacle with South Africa,
our moderately close cousins, and AIDS drugs has recently brought it into
the limelight. But this is ample proof that in a world that can produce
TL7-8 medicine, much of the world has access to TL 4-5 medicine at best.
And if you're in Africa/India and outside a city, don't make any plans on
having better than TL 2-3 medicine available, unless you carry it with
you.

So bringing it back to Traveller, why do the poor/low tech worlds maintain
their own pharmaceutical industry?

- Fear of a new Long Night
- Extortionate prices for imports
- Career opportunities for people with exceptional talent
- National pride
- Err...
- That's it


--
Fabian
Hey! Don't write yourself off yet. It's only in your head you feel left
out or looked down on. Just try your best. Try everything you can.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Feb 18 23:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:51:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
Message-ID: <200202182351.PAA22388@molly.iii.com>

"Fabian" <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Essentially, for specialized, low-volume goods, why would they ever
>> be built on-planet for worlds whose TL is less than Abover Average
>> Imperial? i.e. communications, medical, COACC control
>
>Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
>no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
>throughout the third world.

Well, these factors are why I think 'TL' and 'wealth' should be virtually
synonymous.  It's worth noting that most third world countries don't have
a low-tech infrastructure either -- they don't don't have much of an
infrastructure at all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:05:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:05:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
In-Reply-To: <200202181431_MC3-F27A-44A9@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <B896D6B6.26C0F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/18/02 11:31 AM, Michael Taylor at MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com wrote:
> Mixed Genre is fine with me. It's just that none of the Traveller books are
> particularly well illustrated and *someone* is going to ask me what the
> heck Jack or Mesh looks like!
> 
> Where is Tod Glen's web site?

Weapon section can be accessed at http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:10:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Evening Star?
Message-ID: <200202182110_MC3-F292-3C1B@compuserve.com>

I came across the Traveller module name "Evening Star"  and almost started
to cry. This is one of the greatest modules ever done for Traveller and I
remember having a blast with it when I was a kid. 

Are there any pictures of this product posted on line anywhere?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:53:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:53:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKJCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>
><snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
>Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
>guess) or did someone just spam this list with this sc

Interestingly, the decedent is a Mr. Wiseman.  I wonder if the spammer
actually did a little research.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 03:28:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:28:55 +1100
Subject: [TML] Oh, for G-d's sake!
Message-ID: <OF1D1C8387.9926A636-ONCA256B65.0013015B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce wrote:
>Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
>line.
[brilliant exposition snipped]

Chalk up a keyboard kill!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 04:19:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:19:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <OFCCC08542.FF9D9BD8-ON85256B65.0017A6F5@lotus.com>

Michael Taylor writes:
>Anyone else have this excellent supplement?
That one's mine. Unfortunately the only bit I didn't write was the cargo 
generation bit. Andy wrote that. If he's still active, you can probably 
ask him.
If you have any questions on the rest, I'm happy to answer those. Almost 
every cargo has a story behind it (the grav stilettos, the turd filled 
glass sculptures, the yips...)

Jo

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 01:25:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:25:29 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Preliminary introduction
In-Reply-To: <3C719352.307D241B@premier.net>
Message-ID: <00c801c1b8e4$517e71e0$2f7de40c@loki>

John leads us to:
http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/scam.shtml

from which I find [edited]

THE FIVE RULES FOR DOING BUSINESS [as a Free Trader Tramp]
1. NEVER pay anything up front for ANY reason.
2. NEVER extend credit for ANY reason.
3. NEVER do ANYTHING until their check clears.
4. NEVER expect ANY help from the [Local] Government.
5. NEVER rely on [the Imperial] Government to bail you out.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:44:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:44:39 EST
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <50.6caad02.29a31617@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 5:16:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
tml-digest-owner@travellercentral.com writes:


> there was a project to make a traveller CD rom of all the GDW stuff some
> years ago.
> but I think it's fallen off the mark.
> 

I pretty much did this myself....or at least am working on it. though i am 
doing it for personal reasons.  I love the LBB format (classic traveller all 
the way) and the reprint books are ok, but bottom line was i was still 
carrying a ton of books to game night so i started scanning the books i have 
and putting them on my laptop. Not only did i scan em but i OCRed them so i 
can do a search. Next project i might tackle is to take everything i have and 
put it in a database format of some sort (taking suggestions on what would 
work best) so i can make a super ships library with search and indexing.  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the books, 
i am only doing it to compile space


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 05:28:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:28:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
In-Reply-To: <20020218.130533.-23855.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218212220.009e9110@mindspring.com>

At 01:05 PM 2/18/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Hey Douglas Berry, did you do it?

Naw, the loving wife pointed out that:

a.  I need to do a whole pile more sit-ups and push-ups before I'm even 
remotely in shape, and

b. Getting a career-orientated position as a Communications Dispatcher 
would do a lot more for the family, financially, than running off to who 
-knows-where and eating grubs.

Maybe after I've been at work a couple of years, if they are still running 
the show, I'll give it a try.

A friend and I were discussing TV in general, and he was of the opinion 
that in a couple of years we will have the Survivor Channel.  Repeats of 
old episodes, behind the scenes stuff, travelogues of the setting, and when 
the survivors touch down, *24 hour a day coverage* for their entire time, 
from boarding the pane to the last council!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 00:19:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:19:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
Message-ID: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com>


<snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?

For those of you who missed it, here it is. I find this particular one 
veryamusing, for reasons which should be obvious, and for which I hope to be 
forgiven re-spamming the list.

************************************
>  Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
>  From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
>  Subject: Preliminary introduction
>  
>  Dear Sir;
>  
>  My name is Linda Bongo, I am the Group Managing Director of Commerce Bank 
> Limited. I contact you in order to intimate you with a certain state of 
> affairs that I am sure will inspire your interest.
>  On the 5th September 2000 , I received a notice from the administrative 
> department of my bank informing me of the death of one of our customers. 
The 
> late man was an American businessman his name is Frederick Wiseman III. Mr. 
> Wiseman was a very visible businessman known to many of us, he has been a 
> customer of my bank for over 2 decades and he has lived in Africa for over 
5 
> decades.
>  Upon receipt of the news of Mr. Wiseman's death, I initiated the normal 
> procedures which included the notification of his next of kin to inform 
them 
> of his demise. To my utter surprise after due investigation,  Mr. Wiseman 
> nominated a non existent Mrs. Wiseman  as his next of kin. Not knowing what 
> next steps to pursue, I put the file in abeyance until such a time as 
> somebody comes forward to lay claim to that status of next of kin.
>  Last September makes it exactly a year since Mr. Wiseman's death. Nobody 
has 
> still come forward. All my multifaceted investigations have revealed the 
same 
> conclusion; Mr. Wiseman died with no family ties.
>  Sir, I inform you that Mr. Wiseman had a balance of  $30 million dollars 
in 
> his domiciliary account at my bank. I contact you because I feel that we 
> should work together and see ways we can profit from this most bizarre 
> situation. My banks standard procedure under such a situation is to turn 
the 
> money over to the authorities. If you are aware of the sociopolitical 
> realities of Nigeria, you will know that there are no set of people more 
> corrupt than the government officials themselves. If I turn this money over 
> to them, it will surely end up in their private bank accounts. Rather than 
> turn the money in, I have decided to keep it for myself.
>  If you are ready to work with me, what I propose is as follows;
>  1-I will nominate you as the next of kin
>  2-I will direct that the funds be paid out to you.
>  Understand that I am the paramount administrative office of this bank and 
my 
> directives have immediate effect. Once we are of one accord, I will have 
your 
> name and address placed as that of the next of kin and I will commence the 
> process.
>  Mr. Wiseman operated his account in a branch of my bank under the 
management 
> of a European gentleman, Mr. Schwechter, I have spoken with him and he has 
> expressed preparedness to co-operate with me only if I  accept the 
> responsibility of securing  the cooperation of the person who is to stand 
as 
> next of kin. For your cooperation all three of us will share the money 
> equally. I can assure you that this is a straight forward business and I 
can 
> have it wrapped up in a weeks time.
>  If you find yourself interested in this project, then please contact me 
for 
> further information of linda_bongo@lycos.com or you may contact Mr. Martin 
> Schwechter at martinschwechter@excite.com .Mr. Schwechter speaks French , 
> German and English. He is a most agreeable man and I am sure he will be 
able 
> to explain further details to you.
>  Please consider this offer and let me know what your thinking is.
>  Thank you.
>  
>  Mrs. Linda Bongo
>  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 05:19:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:19:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] Olympic Alternatives (was: re: Sports and Games in
 the
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCEMHCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.
 co.uk>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020217172022.009f53c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218211440.009e9d90@mindspring.com>

At 06:52 PM 2/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Sounds like an interesting life, I would buy a copy; now get writing.

Ah, you should see the things that I didn't mention!  Like why my car was 
once dismantled by the Border Patrol, or how a speeding ticket could have 
led to me spending the rest of my life in federal prison, or the night I 
literally fled naked from the bedroom window... of my platoon leader and 
his lovely wife!

If you only get one life, you had better make sure it is interesting!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 02:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:10:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: T5
Message-ID: <200202182110_MC3-F292-3C1D@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
><<<SNIP OF DEBATE WHERE OPPOSING POSITIONS ARE BECOMING FIRMLY
ENTRENCHED>>>
>
>>>>I also question your assumption that Gearheads and Roleplayers are
>>>>mutually exclusive groups.  Some people are both.
>
>It's not an assumption, it's a assertion, but perhaps the term is
confusing
>you. I'll change the term "Roleplayer" to "Storyteller".
>>>>>This part still bothers me.  I am a role player, and a story teller,
and
>>>>>whatever other synonym you wish to employ.  

Arg! Jeesh it's a just a word. Your losing focus on what the discussion was
about! Which is "Can a Gearhead system simplified satisfy all Traveller
players?" 

Pick a term that means "DEFINITELY THE OPPOSITE OF GEARHEAD"! I'll use it!
:<

>>>>>Did you read my earlier post that describes
gearheadedness/nongearheadedness as one
>>>>>spectrum, and roleplayerness/nonroleplayerness as a completely
different
>>>>>and unrelated spectrum?  Desire for detail and desire for a good story
are
>>>>>two completely different things.  

Yes I did. But I was never talking about that! I was talking about the a
Ship Design system and who it's audience is. 

>>>>>I think you're making an important
>>>>>mistake to consider roleplayer or storyteller or whatever as mutually
>>>>>exclusive with gearhead.  

No, I'm not - because for purposes of a SHIP DESIGN SYSTEM discussion, they
ARE mutually exclusive! They are MEANT to be. 

Taking this off into the tangent of a "general" discussion about the
"amount" of gearheadedness is an entirely different discussion. 

>>>>>Just because you personally may be a strong
>>>>>roleplayer and not a strong gearhead (taking a guess this describes
you)
>>>>>does not mean the two things go hand in hand.

Yeah, it does if the disucssion is "If you divide Traveller players into
two groups - one who calls themsselves Gearheads and want a ship design
system built for 'Gearheads' and the others who wants ANOTHER kind of ship
design system that's specifically addresses they're Non-Gearhead needs...."

>>>>>>You can't be BOTH a Person who wants a complicated Gearhead system
and a
>>>>>>person who *doesn't* want a complicated gearhead system! Which is how
I'm
>>>>>>using the terms. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fair enough statement, but it sure hasn't been sounding that
way to me.<

I think you are inferring that the statement Roleplayer/Storyteller vs.
Gearhead is indicative of how I feel about things BEYOND the Ship Design
System. 

That's not correct. It's just a convienient term for this PARTICULAR
discussion.

For the record (and just to re-state that I feel this is WAY beyond the
scope of the discussion I'm talking about) - the whole "gearhead spectrum"
thing is fine with me as far as it goes, but ...

1. It doesn't particulary work for the idea of a "Simplified FFS&S". This
doesn't meet the needs of the "Non-Gearhead".  

2. If that were true then where's the hue--and-cry from the Gearheads
wanting to seperate Dexterity into Manual Dexterity and Running Dexterity.
Intelligence into Long Term Memory and Short Term Memory? 

So know you have a 'spectrum' that's more like a 3-dimensional cube,
because the Gearheads are only gearheads when it comes to some of the
technological aspects of the game. They dont need that kind of detail for
other aspects of the game. 

So the whole analogy doesn't pass the squint test on closer examination.
IMHO. 

>>>>And maybe you could consider changing "Gearhead" to "Simulationist".
Then we
>>>>have the "Storyteller" vs. "Simulationist" line which in my observation
is
>>>>one of the most fundamental in gaming.

LOL! That's what all Gearheads say! That they're Simulating More
Accurately! 

As a Storyteller I take objection to that! I'm not simulating any less
accurately than the gearhead. But I'm capable of doing it *without* rules
to spoonfeed me figures! 

When those figures are in the rules, they don't help me - they confuse the
game because I may decide to engineer something different, but they players
are confused by the numbers in the rules that I've decided to change. 

Besides. The Gearhead specifically ISNT insterested in simulating.
Simulation requires action and variable outcomes. Puting the technology
through its paces, so to speak. 

Gearheading is about *Modeling*. They want their technology to be accurate
models based on science. How they 'act' in the real/simulated world is
*secondary* to how they "play". 

So the way I see it, the Storytellers who are more interested in how the
Play turns out than in having rules for every technology are the real
"Simulationists" whereas the gearheads are Modelers who want the paper
technology to encompass as much accuracy as the science envisions. 

You can think of it in terms of the Heisenberg principle - the closer you
observe something, the more likely you are to modify it. Or you can think
of it in terms of Statistics. All Statistics break down at the larger and
smaller ends. 

I think of it in terms of software engineering. The more complex your
design, the more likely it is to break. So a complex system - by definition
- has more holes in it than a simple system. 

But again, this is a different dicussion/tangent to a ship building system.


>>>>>>>>>>IMO (but that's just me) storytelling style is just an invitation
>>>>>>>>>>for a GM (myself included) to nudge players around. Not possible
if the
>>>>>>>>>>rules cover everything.

LOL! Sorry but it seems that GURPS rules cover everthing and that doesn't
seem to have solved the problem! 

How about if the GM covers everything? I'm capable of being very consistent
and realistic and accurate in my rulings. So rules that "cover
everything"WORSE THAN I WOULD are simply tedious and inaccurate and
confusing to players who want *good* rules

But again, this is a digression. As I said, above the distinction between
Gearhead/Storyteller is too simplistic once you get past talking about a
SPECIFIC design system. 

There are too many variations for these two camps to be broadened beyond a
the specifics of vehicle design. 

Expect for which Gadgets rules they use - all gods' children are part
gearhead/part storyteller. 

>>>>Ah, but what about the gamists? This has been an old favourite on 
>>>>rec.games.frp.advocacy for the six years I've been on-line and longer.

Not familiar with that one, and I *am* curious about it, but I suspect it's
also Off Track! ;D

>>>>I would describe myself as a role-player above all else... but for me, 
>>>>part of that is creating and inhabiting as 'real' an alternate reality
as 
>>>>I can manage :-)
>>>>So, does this help or hinder the debate?

It hurts. Because it adds the old 'realism/interesting' debate to the Ship
Design System, which infers that the Simple system is the "Not Realistic"
system. Well, if that's what I wanted, I'd be happy with "Big Robots, Cool
Starships". 

Take the Barrel Length discussion *. The gearhead can't rule on whether or
not a player can hide the weapon in the coat without knowing the barrell
length and the coat lengths. 

The Storteller can take that into account in his head plus wind resistance
plus alertness of guards plus players suspiciousness plus Law Level plus
alot of other things that the gearhead can't do because he doesn't have
rules in front of him to tell him how to do it. So the player looks up his
barrel length and says "Yes. I can do this!" 

The Storyteller calculates this all in his head and allows it or disallows
it based on a far more realistic set of variables than ANY rules could ever
cover. Plus it's much more exciting because for the Storyteller player it
is NOT a foregone conclusion because they can't look it up in the book. 

* I realize that that is a bias example, and that the original example is
acknowledged as a bad example - but my point is still valid, which is that
less rules does NOT mean less realistic. Most of the time it means *more*
realstic. 

I'm not asking for a less realistic system - I'm asking for a *better*
system than the gearhead system! By better I mean - let ME handle the
"realism" (because I can do that better for "My Traveller Universe" than
ANY design system) part and the design system should handle the Rules part.


But thanks for playing! ;}

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 07:25:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:25:46 -0800
Subject: [TML] Hypothetical 1
In-Reply-To: <20020218235021.4959cedc.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <00c901c1b916$a630ce40$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you Jens for your commentary.


So the information is released quickly and production follows soon
after. If, as others have pointed out, they see economic benefit to
exploiting the technology.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 07:20:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:20:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Survivor video tryouts
Message-ID: <20020218.232059.-113179.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Too bad man, it coulda been you :~)

Bari

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:28:57 -0800 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 01:05 PM 2/18/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hey Douglas Berry, did you do it?
> 
> Naw, the loving wife pointed out that:
> 
> a.  b.  work .
>

We are the Borg. 
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 09:13:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:13:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Oh, for G-d's sake!
In-Reply-To: <200202182158.g1ILwS121941@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202182158.g1ILwS121941@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <7n547ucg3huj3jj6mnfhssfqtmv45otqvi@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:58:28 -0800 (PST), Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> Listmom, WTF is going on?  The digest is still getting spammed, and if
>> anything, it's been getting worse!

>Bringing up why the Imperial X-Boat system took so long to bring on 
>line. It wasn't that there were insufficient need or resources for it, 
>it's just that the racial memory of the ROM Interstellar net still 
>resounds in peoples minds.

Thus converting a continuing annoyance into some great satire, and
engendering not a few chuckles in the process!  Thanks; I needed that!

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 15:00:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:00:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
Message-ID: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>








<snip> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
guess) or did someone just Spam this list with this scam?

this is an actual Spam message. it has hit my office email twice and my
home email once.

the names are changed every time. and once they even got my name <boogle>
in the Dear xxx part

I am still at a loss for how these people acquired my email address. i can
understand my hotmail account being found and spammed. but my work account?
outside of this list and a personal friend no one has it. go figure.

Hasta











From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 16:13:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:13:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>

At 10:00 AM 2/19/2002 -0500, William Lane wrote:
><snip> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
>Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my
>guess) or did someone just Spam this list with this scam?
>this is an actual Spam message. it has hit my office email twice and my
>home email once.
>the names are changed every time. and once they even got my name <boogle>
>in the Dear xxx part
>I am still at a loss for how these people acquired my email address. i can
>understand my hotmail account being found and spammed. but my work account?
>outside of this list and a personal friend no one has it. go figure.

There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, similar 
to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly formatted 
email addresses.


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Character, the willingness to accept responsibility
for one's own life, is the source from which
self-respect springs." - Joan Didion
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 16:41:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (eholmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:41:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Olympic Alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219093846.026ac550@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>

Doug:

I can't believe you picked the PL's wife....at least go for the company 
CO's horny wife....

And was she really "lovely"?

Eric

At 07:01 AM 2/19/02 -0800, you wrote:
>the night I  literally fled naked from the bedroom window... of my platoon 
>leader and
>his lovely wife!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:28:04 +0800
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>

At 11:13 AM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:

>There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, 
>similar to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly 
>formatted email addresses.

And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name via 
Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages which 
have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and you'll 
find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered that my 
name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had made 
out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it for spambots?

-- Rachel

p.s. Maybe now that Yahoo is considering fees for services, I'll finally 
have to go get a credit card so I can pay for a decent (read: different) 
service.  How'm I gonna get all 1000 people on the Lightwave list to follow 
me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:11:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:11:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Collector's Hell
Message-ID: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81C@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Woo-hoo!  I  have  just  won  the  old "Traveller's  Digest:  Visit to
Antiquity" on the german E-Bay. How cool is that?
Sadly, I lost my bid on the "Atlas" though...
<

Very nice! Traveller's Digest #1-3 are the hardest to get! 

FWIW, I was hugely disappointed in the Atlas when I got it. I'd trade it
for Digests easily!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:11:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Armor and Weapon Illustrations?
Message-ID: <200202191311_MC3-F241-E81F@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>>Where are the best Traveller weapon and armor illustrations?

I have some at Beowulf Down,<
>>>Weapon section can be accessed at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons

Thanks! These are both good refrences!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 18:41:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:41:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3C724814.9921.BD3B7C@localhost>

I've gotten it at least once myself, and forwarded it to the FBI etc...
and the response was pretty much typical


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 20:40:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:32 EST
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>

I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people) so 
miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago with 
my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is the 
cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's 
worth it.

My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?

Hope you can help.

Charles

Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 21:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:00:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As you all have heard, the tml is getting spammed on the digest list.

I will be updating sendmail to include real time blackholing.  Hopefully,
this will reduce or eliminate the spamming on the TML.  I will be testing
first, before I roll out.  I will let everyone know the moment things
change.

Thanks, Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 20:04:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:04:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C72AFE3.6060901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> At 11:13 AM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> There you go.  This list is achieved on line.  There are spam bots, 
>> similar to search engine bots, that roam the web looking for properly 
>> formatted email addresses.
> 
> 
> And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name 
> via Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages 
> which have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and 
> you'll find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered 
> that my name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had 
> made out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it 
> for spambots?
> 


Rachel...isn't your name and e-mail address in your web pages? It may 
not be Yahoo, then...all they're saying is that they don't sell your 
e-mail address.

You cannot display or encode an e-mail address on the web these days 
where it isn't findable...after all, the web is nothing more than a 
gigantic freeform flatfile database, and only polite searchbots pay any 
attention to the 'dont search here' headers.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 21:19:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <memo.980635@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <50.6caad02.29a31617@aol.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I am doing precisely the same thing: particularly as I go to a lot of 
conventions and so either have to turn up with a vast pile of books 
because I may not know what I'm going to DM or play or miss out on a 
resource that turns out to be vital!

It's also easier for writing scenarios, not to have to find a reference 
but to have it there on the system.

Naturally, I confine myself to books I own and still possess...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:03:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <OF647C430E.AE4EE051-ON85256B65.00787104@pheaa.org>






<snip>
>My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

First to play ASL you should really have a good feel for playing the
Original Squad Leader. if you have that then i would say sure go for it.
However i have ASL and have never found anyone who wants to play it.
unfortunately i am one of those people who hates to play a game by myself
so i have never played it. stupid game have had it in my closet since like
the late 80's or some such.

bought it thinking it was the whole game and found out that it wasn't. i
needed to go out and buy Beyond valor to get the pieces. so i have the two
of them in the closet. unused. heck my counters are still in the sheets
they came in. 8P

<Snip>
>On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it
be?

Interesting idea. don't know if it had been done but would like to know
also.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:05:29 -0600
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
References: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C72CC29.93738983@visi.com>

> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?
> 
I would say yes.  But then I do like such things 
(which may or may not give you way too much insight
into me).  And given your concern about space, I don't 
know how better than mini's it would be.....

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?
> 
Nothing worth sharing (or digging out of storage).
Then again, I've done some real horrific things using
unrelated games as game-aids......

And, more to the point of your question, perhaps
Striker?  Or Stiker II?

> Hope you can help.
> 
Well, since I believe I didn't, you could look here:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/asl.php

with you query about solo play:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodsasl.php

although I thought it was to be rewritten...
and with you space concerns, maybe:

http://www.vasl.org/

> Charles
> 
> Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

-- 
Mark

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:18:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Earth's economy in Traveller terms
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020219222017.UPIJ319.dorsey@link>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 at 20:24:36 -0000, Fabian <fabian@lajzar.fsnet.co.uk>
typed:
>
>Have you ever considered politics, economics, and simple greed? There is
>no technological reason why cheap medical drugs are not available
>throughout the third world. However, the drugs companies prefer to keep
>their products expensive to raise profits, among other reasons. We in the
>'enlightened' world don't notice this because we are generally wealthy
>enough to afford what we need, it doesn't directly affect us, and the
>third world has no real voice in our media. The debacle with South Africa,
>our moderately close cousins, and AIDS drugs has recently brought it into
>the limelight.

John Le Carre's recent novel 'The Constant Gardner' touched on this.  And
is an excellent inspirational source for Traveller adventure ideas.

--Laning
Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience usually comes from bad
judgment.
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:08:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ethan Henry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:08:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>

However, in order to test this, we'll need some real spam.

HELLO! I'D LIKE TO BUY SOME CHINESE FORKLIFTS PLEASE!

I LOVE LAUNDERING NIGERIAN OIL MONEY!

OVER HERE!!


Listmom wrote:
> 
> As you all have heard, the tml is getting spammed on the digest list.
> 
> I will be updating sendmail to include real time blackholing.  Hopefully,
> this will reduce or eliminate the spamming on the TML.  I will be testing
> first, before I roll out.  I will let everyone know the moment things
> change.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: 101 Cargos?
Message-ID: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80B0@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>That one's mine. Unfortunately the only bit I didn't write was the cargo 
generation bit.<

Thanks! It's a great supplement. I like these kind of immediatley useful
supplements. 

Hope this Andy's still around the list!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:55:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Traveller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?
In-Reply-To: <DKAAACCGHLHOGBAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGACDAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Sounds like one of the Babylon 5 movies



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew Whincup
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February, 2002 00:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traverller in other game systems - Fuzion anyone?


Okay guys now I'm inspired!!
Fuzion Call of Traveller game!
And the pocket universe idea is great!
Characters could be out to stop a interstellar
conspiracy of Cthulhu cultists who are going 
to use a psionically powered "Key" to open up the gate
to that pocket universe and release the Old Ones!!! 
Psionic superbeings with Psi-Powered technology!!


I'm sorry I started this now.

---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:43:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80AF@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the
books, 
i am only doing it to compile space<

What if we all volunteer to keep 'archival copies' for you?  ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:14:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020219223913.61508.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020131112253.35418.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>

Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in the Klingon Empire.

Harry Mudd traded in...hmmm...slightly larger items...

At 02:39 PM 2/19/2002 -0800, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> > woman that humanity has
> > evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> > disgusted to find his
> > hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> > of dough.
> >
> > Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> > pie-in-the-sky
> > utopians to postulate the "perfect" society.
> > Unfortunately the actual
> > writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> > saloon keeper on a
> > space station?  You're going to need something that
> > he's greedy for.
> > How do the various interstellar polities trade?
> > etc., etc.
>
>Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
>must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
>Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
>forward thinkers.;)
>But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
>technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
>There's no way he could have made "money" off all
>those tribbles.

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 22:39:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:39:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <20020131112253.35418.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020219223913.61508.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>


In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> woman that humanity has
> evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> disgusted to find his
> hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> of dough.
> 
> Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> pie-in-the-sky
> utopians to postulate the "perfect" society. 
> Unfortunately the actual
> writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> saloon keeper on a
> space station?  You're going to need something that
> he's greedy for. 
> How do the various interstellar polities trade? 
> etc., etc.

Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
forward thinkers.;)
But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
There's no way he could have made "money" off all
those tribbles.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:47:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:47:47 -0800
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
In-Reply-To: <200202191744_MC3-F29D-80AF@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c1b99f$d8c0fef0$6401a8c0@goca>

All my stuff is in storage because I don't have room for it where I'm
living.  Electronic versions would be nice.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Vancouver, WA - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@attbi.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 14:44
To: INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Travelling light

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>  Of 
course it is for personal use so sorry i can't give out copies of the
books, 
i am only doing it to compile space<

What if we all volunteer to keep 'archival copies' for you?  ;)

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>

This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Feb 19 23:54:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:54:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
> knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently works
for some categories of spam, however. ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:21:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST
Subject: [TML] Question
Message-ID: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>

What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
Character Builder CD?

What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David P. Summers wrote:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the knowledge 
> that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

In fact they rarely usubscribe from any list, but merely mark you as 'live'.

Moreover, when blocking domains from the server, DO NOT inform them that 
they are blocked, merely /dev/null the mail. Telling them they're being 
blocked only makes them look for new domains to block from.

And Listmom! Please don't use one of the nastier blackhole services, but 
one that actually makes a site able to get _off_ their blacklist once 
it's been put on...we had to wrestle with that...one time some dumba** 
of a blocking site admin decided to put *.Arizona.edu on the list 
because some of the nearly 20,000 hosts on arizona.edu allowed open 
relaying. Blammo...some of the biggest nets would no longer accept 
e-mail from the University.

I know you get endless complaints about spam, but if legitimate domaiuns 
get on these lists it is sometimes very hard to convince the spamnazis 
running these sites to remove them.

And it's a real bitch when your mail server is blocking legitimate 
access to your own users...

I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
e-mail, and think no more about it.

But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
missed.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 00:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:01:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Digest V2002 #170
In-Reply-To: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1b9a1$b51a08a0$0b01a8c0@duck>

I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
reprint.

What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?

Thank you.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 01:40:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:40:54 +0800
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <3C72AFE3.6060901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220093643.03147dd0@localhost>

Hi all!

>Rachel...isn't your name and e-mail address in your web pages? It may not 
>be Yahoo, then...all they're saying is that they don't sell your e-mail 
>address.
>
>You cannot display or encode an e-mail address on the web these days where 
>it isn't findable...after all, the web is nothing more than a gigantic 
>freeform flatfile database, and only polite searchbots pay any attention 
>to the 'dont search here' headers.

Yes, my webmail address is up on my webpage, but no, my private one (this 
one) is not.  I don't check my webmail very often, and when I do, I accept 
that 98% of the mail there will be spam.  On my personal address, however, 
I still get a lot.  I have probably 100 different filters going now.  It's 
particularly bad for me, I think, because I live in Taiwan, and my ISP is 
not too good about blocking spam itself (hinet is a source of lots of 
spam).  Sigh...  Anyway, I'm one of the people Lauren is talking about -- 
hope I don't get blackholed or blackballed or whatever!

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 01:58:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:58:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1014162869.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b898b305af84@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:54 PM -0800 2/19/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>  This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the
>>  "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they
>>  take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the
>>  knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
>
>Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently works
>for some categories of spam, however. ;)

That's an idea.  My mailer has a filter and I've been looking for 
good things to filter on....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:10:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:10:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers
References: <f4.16d94eef.299f48fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7305B0.90405@playnet.com>



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:


> One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
> reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, because 
> that's where the title goes. 


Don't you give them a template with placeholder title
and border pieces to work with and say "Your picture
goes under this"?

That's what we did for the box of our game.

-bloo


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steve (Bloo) Daniels)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:08:52 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
References: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>

Can you say "Wire Fraud"?

I knew dat ya' could.

-bloo

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
if you even think of entertaining the notions in
this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)

-bloo



GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> <snip a textbook example of the Nigerian Banking Scam>
> Now I'm curious, was this someone's quite amusing hoax (my 
> guess) or did someone just spam this list with this scam?
> 
> For those of you who missed it, here it is. I find this particular one 
> veryamusing, for reasons which should be obvious, and for which I hope to be 
> forgiven re-spamming the list.
> 
> ************************************
> 
>> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1990 02:10:23 +0100
>> From: linda_bongo@lycos.com
>> Subject: Preliminary introduction
>> 
>> Dear Sir;
>> 
>> My name is Linda Bongo, I am the Group Managing Director of Commerce Bank 
>>Limited. I contact you in order to intimate you with a certain state of 
>>affairs that I am sure will inspire your interest.
>> On the 5th September 2000 , I received a notice from the administrative 
>>department of my bank informing me of the death of one of our customers. 
>>
> The 
> 
>>late man was an American businessman his name is Frederick Wiseman III. Mr. 
>>Wiseman was a very visible businessman known to many of us, he has been a 
>>customer of my bank for over 2 decades and he has lived in Africa for over 
>>
> 5 
> 
>>decades.
>> Upon receipt of the news of Mr. Wiseman's death, I initiated the normal 
>>procedures which included the notification of his next of kin to inform 
>>
> them 
> 
>>of his demise. To my utter surprise after due investigation,  Mr. Wiseman 
>>nominated a non existent Mrs. Wiseman  as his next of kin. Not knowing what 
>>next steps to pursue, I put the file in abeyance until such a time as 
>>somebody comes forward to lay claim to that status of next of kin.
>> Last September makes it exactly a year since Mr. Wiseman's death. Nobody 
>>
> has 
> 
>>still come forward. All my multifaceted investigations have revealed the 
>>
> same 
> 
>>conclusion; Mr. Wiseman died with no family ties.
>> Sir, I inform you that Mr. Wiseman had a balance of  $30 million dollars 
>>
> in 
> 
>>his domiciliary account at my bank. I contact you because I feel that we 
>>should work together and see ways we can profit from this most bizarre 
>>situation. My banks standard procedure under such a situation is to turn 
>>
> the 
> 
>>money over to the authorities. If you are aware of the sociopolitical 
>>realities of Nigeria, you will know that there are no set of people more 
>>corrupt than the government officials themselves. If I turn this money over 
>>to them, it will surely end up in their private bank accounts. Rather than 
>>turn the money in, I have decided to keep it for myself.
>> If you are ready to work with me, what I propose is as follows;
>> 1-I will nominate you as the next of kin
>> 2-I will direct that the funds be paid out to you.
>> Understand that I am the paramount administrative office of this bank and 
>>
> my 
> 
>>directives have immediate effect. Once we are of one accord, I will have 
>>
> your 
> 
>>name and address placed as that of the next of kin and I will commence the 
>>process.
>> Mr. Wiseman operated his account in a branch of my bank under the 
>>
> management 
> 
>>of a European gentleman, Mr. Schwechter, I have spoken with him and he has 
>>expressed preparedness to co-operate with me only if I  accept the 
>>responsibility of securing  the cooperation of the person who is to stand 
>>
> as 
> 
>>next of kin. For your cooperation all three of us will share the money 
>>equally. I can assure you that this is a straight forward business and I 
>>
> can 
> 
>>have it wrapped up in a weeks time.
>> If you find yourself interested in this project, then please contact me 
>>
> for 
> 
>>further information of linda_bongo@lycos.com or you may contact Mr. Martin 
>>Schwechter at martinschwechter@excite.com .Mr. Schwechter speaks French , 
>>German and English. He is a most agreeable man and I am sure he will be 
>>
> able 
> 
>>to explain further details to you.
>> Please consider this offer and let me know what your thinking is.
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> Mrs. Linda Bongo
>> 
>>
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:03:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:03:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b898b305af84@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014170615.7419.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> >Basically, yeah.  Scanning messages for unsubscribe messages apparently
> >works for some categories of spam, however. ;)
> 
> That's an idea.  My mailer has a filter and I've been looking for 
> good things to filter on....

Assuming you don't mind filtering out anything from a yahoo group ;) (or
special-case it)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:04:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:04:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220022421.00abdeb0@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219111155.00ace8c8@urbin.net>
 <OF17A958F2.9B5CE7EC-ON85256B65.0051DEBF@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020219200253.0258ea80@mail.earthlink.net>

At 02:28 AM 2/20/2002 +0800, Rachel wrote:
And it's unfortunately very easy.  Do an egosearch (search on your name via 
Google or whatever) and you'll probably turn up one or two messages which 
have been found and catalogued.  Search on your email address and you'll 
find tons.  I was not amused, to say the least, when I discovered that my 
name and email address were not nearly so private as Yahoo had made 
out.  If search spiders can find our info, how much easier is it for spambots?


I just did a search on my name and came up with 8 pages of messages from 
travellercentral.com, with a few others thrown in.  I didn't find any 
listings from any of the yahoo groups I am on.

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:05 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8u167u0ggtfcpoiuud0rpo91df0hspqe0v@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
>LKW

I would certainly be interested in such a product, of course depending
upon the price.  If the base price is too high, you might be able to
increase the perceived value by adding some of the material from the
site utilities area.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:04 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <0i167uc6eu0oqakt7jv8m19lisecmjo3q5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800, "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

It is my understanding that, by replying, though the spammer might
take you off the individual mailing list, they then can sell your
address to other spammers as being a valid address where the recipient
actually reads the message in detail.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 02:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:03 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
>e-mail, and think no more about it.
>
>But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
>missed.

Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
spam messages PER DAY!

To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
a great deal of the value of e-mail.

That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
labelling the apam as advertising.

-- 
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:08:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:08:00 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>

> > One of the problems in getting good cover illustrations is constantly 
>  > reminding the artist they can't put certain things in certain places, 
> because 
>  > that's where the title goes. 
>  
>  
>  Don't you give them a template with placeholder title
>  and border pieces to work with and say "Your picture
>  goes under this"?

Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they 
forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they 
can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and 
parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


For the spam part of the message:

Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message gdwgames@aol.com on the 
AOL please e-mail me first. I've been increasingly besieged by instant 
messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so 
I am blocking all but a restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why 
 in 25 words or less.



LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:09:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:09:25 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <5b.23399cea.29a46d65@aol.com>

> I would certainly be interested in such a product, of course depending
>  upon the price.  If the base price is too high, you might be able to
>  increase the perceived value by adding some of the material from the
>  site utilities area.

The gentleman uses a phrase with which I am unfamilar. What site utilities 
area?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:15:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:15:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221425.018a6d48@192.168.0.1>

At $30 (or less), that would be a no brainer purchase for me...

At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
>LKW

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:14:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:14:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...
In-Reply-To: <000801c1b9a1$b51a08a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221346.018e0bd8@192.168.0.1>

What's the URL?

At 06:01 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, Mike West wrote:
>I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
>their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
>(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
>year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
>I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
>Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
>However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
>reprint.
>
>What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
>SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
>were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
>it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
>the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
>any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Mike West
>mjwest@caddocourt.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:28:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:28:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>; from summers@alum.mit.edu on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:44:36PM -0800
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020219202842.D26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:44:36PM -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
> This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
> "unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
> take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
> knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

That is my understanding, yes.  I simply add the sender of a spam to
my .procmailrc, directing any further messages to /dev/null.  I also
use this to kill messages from folks whom I wish not to hear ever
again.  It is a remarkably effective system.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:29:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:29:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:21:59PM -0500
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020219202955.E26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:21:59PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
> Character Builder CD?
> 
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
> 
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Well, I'd want C source, so that it could be compiled for Windows, Mac
OS and Unix.  But I am, perhaps, something of a geek:-)

Honestly, I can say that I wouldn't buy it.  No offense, but that's
not my bag.  Good luck with it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Amusing Spam
In-Reply-To: <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>; from sdaniels@playnet.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:08:52PM -0600
References: <41.18a24a92.29a2f42f@aol.com> <3C730534.7030207@playnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020219203503.G26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:08:52PM -0600, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and
> if you even think of entertaining the notions in
> this scam, you're an idiot.  :-)

I dunno--if one actually knew the parties involved personally, it'd be
rather a good scheme.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:37:59 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:08:00PM -0500
References: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020219203759.H26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:08:00PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first. I've been
> increasingly besieged by instant messages from people with names
> like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a
> restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why in 25 words or
> less.

You might wish to investigate jabber <http://www.jabber.com/>
<http://www.jabber.org/>.  It's an open standard for messaging, very
interesting, and has the ability to encapsulate AOL IM (AOL's blocked
'em, though), MS IM, IRC and several other protocols, as well as its
own.  It's a very clever scheme, and one I recommend to all my
friends.  There are client for every major OS, and more than a few
minor ones.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
progress (n): the process through which Usenet has evolved from smart
people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart
terminals                                --obs at burnout.demon.co.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:33:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>; from johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 05:43:30PM -0700
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020219203328.F26003@4dv.net>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 05:43:30PM -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with 
> spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over 
> sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss 
> junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk 
> e-mail, and think no more about it.

A large part is no doubt the offense at seeing what was once so great
a medium for communication abused so poorly.  I get the same feelings
regarding Usenet and HTTP.  I imagine that it's something of what a
doting father feels when his daughter reaches a certain age...

> But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you 
> missed.

Oddly enough, I've never worried about it too much.  One rarely
_needs_ to see what others write.  Exceptions do occur, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:49:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dennis Cherry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:49:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221425.018a6d48@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <002101c1b9c1$8fb1b7a0$2862a318@cox.rr.com>

Um...in a word..."Yes"  I actually bought the GURPS Creator Module for
Creation Workshop some months ago to do this very thing...I've even built
out races and some equipment...

Best of Luck --Dennis
>
> At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
GURPS
> >Character Builder CD?
> >
> >What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >
> >Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >
> >Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> >
> >LKW
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
> "The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
> business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
> private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
> administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
> top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
> enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:44:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:44:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220034638.WSQB319.dorsey@link>

I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
things.
(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke
(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
use the output from the software.  For instance, one of us could email a
file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
have the software.

It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
some standard format.

Giving the ability to do different editions of Traveller would be great,
and so would the conversion utilities!  :->

--Laning

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 at 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com typed:
>Subject: Question
>
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:59:09 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: ASL
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <3C731F0D.BAE29EF0@ameritech.net>



> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:32 EST
> From: CHam628781@aol.com
> Subject: OT: ASL

<snip>

> Trouble is the
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if
> it's worth it.

If you enjoyed Squad Leader with the expansion modules (Cross of Iron,
etc.) you will probably enjoy ASL. 

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could
> it be?

One of the first topics I posted to when I first joined this list in '99
was Travellerizing Squad Leader. It never got much farther than
concluding that the SL engine is compatible with Traveller and some
discussions on specific technology effects and how to rate units. I
worked up a draft chart of firepower factors for various weapon types
that I might be able to recreate but further work on the project is
sitting uncomfortably on my back burner along with far too many other
ideas with merit that just never seem to reach suitable conclusions. 

Just me being a stereotypical gemini.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 03:20:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:20:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219222012.00bc46d0@mail.comcast.net>

At 07:21 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Loren wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Good!  My reaction, that is...


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net New Email Address!!!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:04:54 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <3C732066.47EC8CAC@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:59 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Question

> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
> GURPS Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

I would be at least tentatively interested in such a product.
Particularly if the CG utilities were customizable for house rules,
altered careers, and whatnot.

>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

This would be a must I think.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:09:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:09:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020219210355.00a614a0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 10:08 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Wiseman wrote:

>Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they
>forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they
>can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and
>parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


And here I've always thought that Bill Keith's artwork did more to flesh 
out early Traveller than all of the verbiage produced by the big shots at 
GDW combined.

JPS




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:39:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:39:12 -0600
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200202200438.g1K4ctw12378@rhylanor.cordite.com>

On 02/19/02 at 07:21 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the
>GURPS  Character Builder CD?

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Seeing as I've already been considering a purchase, this would
probably push me over the edge.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:48:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:48:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <0i167uc6eu0oqakt7jv8m19lisecmjo3q5@4ax.com>
References: <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com>
 <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020219234859.00e4f6c0@buffnet.net>

At 08:35 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:44:36 -0800, "David P. Summers"
><summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?
>
>It is my understanding that, by replying, though the spammer might
>take you off the individual mailing list, they then can sell your
>address to other spammers as being a valid address where the recipient
>actually reads the message in detail.

why not just inform the people who are spamming you that you have a fee for
archiving their promotional data?  Make it a monthly charge, and then
inform them that if they don't pay, you will inform the credit agencies of
their failure to comply with payment schedules... ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:40:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:40:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Olympic Alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219093846.026ac550@popmail.esa.lanl.gov>
References: <200202191501.g1JF1R115969@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219203834.00a06ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 AM 2/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Doug:
>
>I can't believe you picked the PL's wife....at least go for the company 
>CO's horny wife....

You assume that I did the picking.  And my CO was a mean SOB with a 
standing offer to take anybody on in the hand to hand pit.  About once 
every three months, some new fools would take him up on it.

>And was she really "lovely"?

Decorum prevents any further discussion. :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 04:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:35:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219203148.009f98d0@mindspring.com>

At 07:21 PM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?

I'd buy it.

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?

I'd pace the floors waiting for the UPS guy.

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

I'd carry the contents of the near-legendary Illinois storage shed on my 
back to Austin in a small gesture of thanks.  :)

>Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

Idea?  Include Traveller shipyard and the modular grav vehicle design system.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 05:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:22:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
Message-ID: <F1181aQzHkQtMXitvVj00008843@hotmail.com>

From: CHam628781@aol.com

     "My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the 
investment?"


Sir,

     It might well be worth the cost of investment, if it is also going to 
be the only wargame you play for here on out.
     Visit any given games con and you'll notice that the ASL gang play 
nothing but ASL.  Before it was bought up, Avalon Hill used to host a nice 
yearly gaming con outside of Baltimore.  It used to be an exercise in 
temperal jigsaw puzzles for me; how many events could I enter and 
participate in within a given time span.  Most of the other folks attending 
had the same idea, unless they were there for ASL.
     The ASL crowd walked into one ballroom at the beginning of the con and 
didn't walk out again until it was over.  They did nothing but play ASL.  
They arrived with multiple 3-ring binders full of rules, boxes with maps, 
and trays of counters.  Some used handcarts to lug their stuff around.
     I've played SL and ASL, but I got the distinct impression that ASL had 
slowly grown with each new module into one of those games that rewards rules 
researchers and not game players.  You really need to put in quite a bit of 
time and keep a good index of rules handy to play ASL well.  The game 
doesn't reward the fellow who can plan a AFV-supported infantry attack.  
Instead, it rewards the fellow who can find the right rule.

     "On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could 
it be?"

     No reason why it shouldn't be.  The game has lots of designer notes.  
You can get all sorts of info regarding ROF, ranges, and the like of the 
games infantry weapons.  Using that data you could easily rate Traveller 
weapons in ASL terms.  The bigger stuff; AFVs, arty, squad weapons, etc., 
may prove harder though.
     Given the range inflating aspect of future weapons, you may run out of 
map boards to play on!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 06:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:58:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: ASL
Message-ID: <200202200656.g1K6uuQ02543@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: CHam628781@aol.com
>Subject: OT: ASL
>
>I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
...
>My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?

  No. What scale of game? GDW did several that could be played by e-mail
with no changes except a die-roller, as they were intended solely for
double-blind play. 

  You could probably play _Imperium_ solo, but that's not WW2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:10:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:10:29 +1300
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>


Loren wrote :
> Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first.
> I've been increasingly besieged by instant
> messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374"
> and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a restricted
> list. If you want on it, explain to me why
> in 25 words or less.

Perhaps it's because "gdwgames" looks like something that _might_
be a bit kinky ?

After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
and nurses" ?
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:10:28 +1300
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
In-Reply-To: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
>
> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it
> worth the investment?

IMO, No. It has never been a particularly playable game.

Personally, I'd stick with Squad Leader or go for something
completely different like SPI's Firefight.

> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use
> with Trav? Could it be?

There's no real point, it's not really even adaptable to other
Earth wars, it is very heavily tied to the WWII concept and can't
easily be translated to something as close as the Korean or Yom
Kippur wars.

Translating it to simulate a Fulda Gap invasion or something like
Desert Storm would be a nightmare.

Me, I use Renegade Legion for Trav combat because it comes with
nice grav tank models
Anyway, Striker is a much beter set of rules for wargaming
Traveller. <grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:36:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219221346.018e0bd8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEGFEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2002 11:14 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Don't be a tease...


What's the URL?

At 06:01 PM 2/19/2002 -0600, Mike West wrote:
>I am making a small webpage focussing on the Darrians.  I am trying to show
>their state in various periods of time.  I am doing years 0 (T4), 1000
>(T20), 1100 (CT), 1110 (CT/MT/GT) and 1200 (TNE).  I had fun just making
>year 0 up, and I could find plenty of info for 1100, 1110, and 1200.  While
>I could just make stuff up for 1000, I believe that the Spinward Marches
>Campaign actually showed dot-maps for the sector for that timeframe.
>However, I don't have SMC, and won't until FFE prints their Classic Modules
>reprint.
>
>What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
>SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
>were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is how
>it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
>the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
>any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Mike West
>mjwest@caddocourt.com

As you are concentrating on the Daryens or Darrians you might want to look
at some of the land grab sites which covered worlds in this region. Now
loudly blowing my own trumpet. Though not finished I have posted some items
on Cunnonic and Nonym. It was my take on these worlds that decided me that
the Daryens or Darrians are a quiet people with a big stick attitude to
those around them (when they can get away with it.)

Have a look at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran

Press the button labelled [Landgrab]

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 07:36:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEGFEAAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2002 8:22 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Question


What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
Character Builder CD?

What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

LKW

Replying "out loud" can I have that CD last week or earlier.

Antony

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 09:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:21:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Darrian Confedration c 986
Message-ID: <011e01c1b9f0$0da08dc0$8dcdd63f@customer>

> What I would very much like to know is 1) Was that information printed in
> SMC?  And 2) If so, could someone please send me a list of all worlds that
> were are part of the Darrian Confederation in 1000?  Or, (since this is
how
> it would likely be printed in SMC) could someone list all of the worlds in
> the Darrian Confederation at the end of the Third Frontier War, then list
> any differences at the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War?

Darrian Confederation at the end of 3FW 986

Stern-Stern   0223
Nonym         0321
Leberv          0325
Ektron          0326
Zamine         0421
Engrange      0425
Illium            0426
Roget           0427
Rore            0526
Mire             0527
Condaria      0528
Winston        0620
Terant 340   0622
Jacent           0624
494-908       0625
Darrian         0627
Entrope        0720
Torment        0721
Trifuge          0723
Nosea          0724
Spume          0727
Anselhome    0820

The Darrian Confederation was the same at the beginning of the 4FW 1082

Winston, Entrope and Angelhome were lost and Cunnonic was gained at the end
of the 4FW 1084

Interestingly, Margesi and Saurus were taken by the Imperium from the Sword
Worlds.

John Scarlett
Vive le Republic de Garoo!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 11:05:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:05:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <0i077uok001e6nhu6ra18l35qul8vrrv99@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:35:13 -0800 (PST), "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
>"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
>take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
>knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?

That's absolutely correct, as has been proven over and over by people who
"unsubscribe" previously-unspammed addresses - only to find that address
quickly overrun by spam.

Find reputable companies "upstream" of the spammers, and complain about the
spam.  http://spamcop.net is a good way to do it.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 10:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gerry Harris)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:57:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020220105731.36145.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>

Besides, TOS did not seem to have a problem with money.  In at least
one episode, Kirk makes a comment about "earning our pay."  It's really
not until TNG and Star Trek IV that an anti-money bias comes through. 
IIRC, the Star Trek roleplaying game, which was based on TOS, had
payscales for Federation personnel.


--- Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
> That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in the Klingon
> Empire.
> 
> Harry Mudd traded in...hmmm...slightly larger items...
> 
> At 02:39 PM 2/19/2002 -0800, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> 
> >In First Contact, Picard tells the 21st century
> > > woman that humanity has
> > > evolved past the need for money, and LaForge is
> > > disgusted to find his
> > > hero designed warp drive in an effort to make oodles
> > > of dough.
> > >
> > > Star Trek's Federation appears to be an attempt by
> > > pie-in-the-sky
> > > utopians to postulate the "perfect" society.
> > > Unfortunately the actual
> > > writers run up against reality.  Yyou want a shady
> > > saloon keeper on a
> > > space station?  You're going to need something that
> > > he's greedy for.
> > > How do the various interstellar polities trade?
> > > etc., etc.
> >
> >Strangely enough Gene Roddenberry, and Ron Berman
> >must've loathed all that cash they made off of Star
> >Trek. Sigh, life must've been so miserable for such
> >forward thinkers.;)
> >But what is life in the Federation? A socialistic
> >technocracy? Why was Harry Mudd seen as so sordid?
> >There's no way he could have made "money" off all
> >those tribbles.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
> Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
> of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
> smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 


=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************
ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/Harrisgwjr/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" 
  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 11:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:06:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <9o077u8p1d8sungddii8n62cki285btv4d@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:35:13 -0800 (PST), GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
>Character Builder CD?

>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 

>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?

GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMME!
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 12:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daumen)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:37:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1ba0b$5f45c8a0$0200a8c0@mindspring.com>


> I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with
others).
> I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people)
so
> miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago
with
> my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is
the
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's
> worth it.
>
Have you ever tried Ambush (Victory Games)?  You run a squad in ww2 Europe.
I believe there are also versions set in the Pacific.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 13:50:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:50:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <20020220034638.WSQB319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202200235.g1K2ZDm02145@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220084804.016c4db0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:44 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
>things.
>(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke

Oh so you want the non-gearhead version of the software. :-)

>(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
>usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
>But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
>use the output from the software.
>For instance, one of us could email a
>file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
>have the software.

This is a nice feature but sounds like bad marketing from a SJG point of view.

>It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
>some standard format.

Hmmm...something like a Traveller character sheet?

>Giving the ability to do different editions of Traveller would be great,
>and so would the conversion utilities!  :->
>--Laning
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 at 19:21:59 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com typed:
> >Subject: Question
> >What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
> >Character Builder CD?
> >What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 13:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:57:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] OT: ASL
In-Reply-To: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:40:32PM -0500
References: <185.3df1e08.29a41240@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020220085734.G16007@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:40:32PM -0500, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> I'm looking for a WWII wargame that I can play solo (or rarely with others). 
> I have limited space (I share a two bedroom flat with three other people) so 
> miniature systems are difficult. I played "Squad Leader" many years ago with 
> my mates and was recently looking at "Advanced Squad Leader". Trouble is the 
> cost of getting started with ASL is high and I really don't know if it's 
> worth it.
> 
> My question then is - given the cost of ASL is it worth the investment?
> 
> On a related point has ASL ever been adapted for use with Trav? Could it be?
> 
Have you ever looked at Up Front? Its roots are in Squad Leader, but it 
approaches the "fog of war" in an interesting way. It does not use a map
board although there are counters. 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 14:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:13:56 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #172
Message-ID: <170.91da75b.29a50924@aol.com>

> >Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they
>  >forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that 
> they
>  >can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and
>  >parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.
>  
>  
>  And here I've always thought that Bill Keith's artwork did more to flesh 
>  out early Traveller than all of the verbiage produced by the big shots at 
>  GDW combined.
>  
>  JPS

You shouldn't misunderstand what I am saying . . . when I say "All artists 
are flakes" I do not mean anything perjorative by it. Whatever part of their 
brain that makes them creative also makes them a little flakey. Dealing with 
that is just part of dealing with them, and it is something you ignore for 
the good ones. I have met many great artists over the years, and I admire 
them, because they get to show people what's in their mind's eye directly, 
instead of having to use the palpably inadequate medium of words ( I did a 
JTAS editorial on this subject a year or so ago, along with discussing why I 
felt illos were important in RPGs). 

I have said for years that one of my most important contributions to 
Traveller may very well have been to hire Bill Keith. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:21:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:21:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travelling light
Message-ID: <200202201021_MC3-F2BE-DC05@compuserve.com>

Actually, how about contacting that company in italy that prints the 1st
edition AD&D manuals in 2"x2" books. 

I'd love to be able to fit the Traveller Book and the Traveller Adventure
in my shirt pocket!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:29:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:29:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C346E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hey, I represent that remark!!  Er...
Jesse :)




Yep. As I say, constantly. They don't think it applies to them. Or they 
forget, Or they decide that the painting they want to do is SO KEWL that they 
can violate your strictures. All artists (IMO) are flakes. It is part and 
parcel of the creative talent to be more or less nutzo.


For the spam part of the message:

Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message gdwgames@aol.com on the 
AOL please e-mail me first. I've been increasingly besieged by instant 
messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374" and "Hot4U 338917" so 
I am blocking all but a restricted list. If you want on it, explain to me why 
 in 25 words or less.



LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 15:36:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:36:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML]Nipping it in the bud
Message-ID: <20020220153637.36985.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

If I were Lucan instead of mobilizing all those forces
to attack Dulinor. Why not just send a few spec ops
squads to take him and his family out? And maybe even
go along so he could personally take out Dulinor so he
too could make the claim to throne by "right of
assassination". 

But I get the feeling Lucan was a punk!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:07:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:07:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>

In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
eat sentient species and use them as cattle. 

I've often thought would it be like to throw these
babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
would happen.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:33:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:33:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
In-Reply-To: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220113143.00a84218@urbin.net>

Sounds like Kzin or Kur.

[yes, one of those proves I had tacky reading habits as a teen. Although I 
do get a kick out of the company that is republishing them.]

At 08:07 AM 2/20/2002 -0800, Gonzalez wrote:
>In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
>Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
>eat sentient species and use them as cattle.
>
>I've often thought would it be like to throw these
>babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
>would happen.

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:28:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:28:01 -0800
Subject: [TML]Nipping it in the bud
In-Reply-To: <20020220153637.36985.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220082623.009fbec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:36 AM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>If I were Lucan instead of mobilizing all those forces
>to attack Dulinor. Why not just send a few spec ops
>squads to take him and his family out? And maybe even
>go along so he could personally take out Dulinor so he
>too could make the claim to throne by "right of
>assassination".

Where was he?  All anybody knew was that Dulinor had left Captial on his 
private cruiser.  He could be anywhere.  That, and Dulinor had planned 
ahead, his brother commanded Illesh fleet.

>But I get the feeling Lucan was a punk!

No argument there.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 16:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:24:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <191.289a6eb.29a46d10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220081959.009f7a50@mindspring.com>

At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
>After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
>"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
>and nurses" ?

Sadly, no.

Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves, when 
someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a dispatcher 
for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and wrote role-playing 
games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological tool for 
therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea that these 
were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere else doing things 
that are fun!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:37:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:37:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
References: <20020220160752.28870.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C73DED4.4040208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Gonzalez wrote:
 > In the Starfire universe there is a race called the Arachnids. In a
 > word, they come, they conquer, they eat sentient species and use
 > them as cattle.
 >
 > I've often thought would it be like to throw these babies into the
 > Traveller Universe just to see what would happen.


OOOhhh...A Kkree Arachnid Grudge Match! Wheee!

Realistically it would be something to unite the various polities in
known space, if the Arachnids were big and nasty enough, sort of like 
Turtledove's alternate history stuff.

But they would have to be really big and nasty to do that...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:39:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>

Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video 
store closed down.

I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another 
great adventure to pull on characters.

At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I 
was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).

I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the movie).

One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was 
passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless 
team put a round through it.

It blew up good.


------------------------------------------
"The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:33:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:33:46 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS 
> Character Builder CD?
> 
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE? 
> 
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> 
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> 
> LKW
> 

Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 17:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:52:16 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com> <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]> <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

JR Holmes wrote:

> 
> Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
> the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
> quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
> spam messages PER DAY!
> 
> To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
> projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
> safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
> a great deal of the value of e-mail.
> 
> That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
> labelling the apam as advertising.


That is so bogus a study it's not even funny.

For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years now 
(since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some people 
complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, regularly post to a 
half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I get, on average, one to 
three unsolicited spams a week.

Oddly enough, if your enter Bruce Johnson into Google, the 4th result is 
my (old) Traveller pages...;-)

I'm not counting the junk mail I voluntarily recieve, mostly specials 
lists from various vendors I've purchased from, where I ALWAYS uncheck 
the box 'Can we use your e-mail address to...).

Webmaster@pharmacy.arizona.edu gets more, about 4 or 5 a week.

I don't know any particular things I do to avoid it, other than;

I don't post to Usenet.
I don't use irc or instant messenger programs.
I don't hand out my e-mail whenever I'm asked for it on a demo download 
or something. JoeBlah@blah.com gets all of that junk mail...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:16:09 -0800
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B89927E8.273F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/20/02 9:39 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video
> store closed down.
> 
> I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another
> great adventure to pull on characters.
> 
> At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I
> was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).
> 
> I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the movie).

Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
character <grin>. 

Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.

> 
> One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was
> passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless
> team put a round through it.
> 
> It blew up good.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde
> 
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:08:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com>



Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
> > Character Builder CD?
> >
> > What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
> >
> > Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
> >
> > Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
> >
> > LKW
> >
> 
> Does it run on a Mac? No? Oh well...another lost sale....

Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator. 
Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
much resourse space.
-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:18:28 -0700
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3C73E874.9090701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local 
> video store closed down.

Is it a NEW dvd? The DVD that has been released in the past was dubbed 
badly from a really worn theatrical film and had really bad sound.

If they remastered it I'll snap one in a heartbeat.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:16:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:16:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
In-Reply-To: <3C73DED4.4040208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014229003.4086.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> OOOhhh...A Kkree Arachnid Grudge Match! Wheee!
> 
> Realistically it would be something to unite the various polities in
> known space, if the Arachnids were big and nasty enough, sort of like 
> Turtledove's alternate history stuff.
> 
> But they would have to be really big and nasty to do that...

In practice, uniting the factions, except on a local scale, isn't really doable
anyway for logistical reasons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:38:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <3C73E874.9090701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220133708.00a8bc10@urbin.net>

At 11:18 AM 2/20/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video 
>>store closed down.
>Is it a NEW dvd? The DVD that has been released in the past was dubbed 
>badly from a really worn theatrical film and had really bad sound.

Good question.  I just saw the list surfing through Amazon.  I didn't dig 
into the details because I already have a copy.

Also out, The Starship Troopers Roughnecks CGI episodes.

>If they remastered it I'll snap one in a heartbeat.

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:38:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:38:17 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>And Listmom! Please don't use one of the nastier blackhole services, but

[deletion]

>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with
>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
>e-mail, and think no more about it.

I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
of email spam than junk snail mail.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 18:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:51:40 -0700
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3C73F03C.8020609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
> is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
> I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator. 
> Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
> much resourse space.

Actually Mac lans do not use more resources, despite what PC-Bigot 
syadmins say. NT 4 sucks as an Appleshare server, but it is a 'tacked 
on' service, and only does classic Appletalk (which Apple had started to 
move away from by the time SFM were put into NT4)

Win2K does Appletalk over IP which is much faster, and it's much more 
integrated into the OS, in that you simply designate a share as a 
Windows or Mac or both upon creation of the share.

In previous versions you had to run a separate Mac administrator module 
and there were a host of cross-platform problems when sharing a common 
directory.

That said, Mac OSX 10.1 and up do support smb:// constructs in the 
network browser just do smb://<windows computer name>/<share name> to 
connect to a Windows share. No Netbios support so you can't browse the 
network, alas.

Dave is not, ime, crash-happy, just slow as molasses. I've run it 
happily on my Powerbook 540 here at work. I get 3-4x faster file 
transfers using Win2k's Mac support over Dave.

As for decent emulation of Windows, I maintain that since Windows is a 
piss-poor emulation of the Mac, the native Mac OS is a vastly better 
Windows emulator than anything else...;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:11:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1014232284.2767.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:


> I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
> mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
> of email spam than junk snail mail.

I probably get 20 messages a day of one sort of spam or another, but it's
rarely a challenge to deal with it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:37:05 -0000
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEENMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I would love it, buy it (at a reasonable price f course), and use it a lot.

Note only applies if it includes the CG utilities for MT and TNE :)

Peter 'Beest' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
How do I know that anyone is human? I have to take their word for it.
- -Sartre

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: 20 February 2002 00:22
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Question
>
>
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of
> the GURPS
> Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>
> LKW
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:43:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:43:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <B89927E8.273F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220144053.00a87258@urbin.net>

At 10:16 AM 2/20/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 2/20/02 9:39 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
> > Great Traveller Movie...I have a VHS copy I picked up when my local video
> > store closed down.
> > I picked up *a lot* of movies then.  Including "The Wild Geese", another
> > great adventure to pull on characters.
> > At a con years ago, the Merc:2000 game I was in was based on this movie (I
> > was the only one there who had seen it beside the GM).
> > I got the grump Merc commander role (played by Richard Burton in the 
> movie).
>Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>character <grin>.

Hmm...going for that suspension of disbelief thing there. :-)

>Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.

He wasn't included in the game.
Great lines though.  He filled out his will leaving everything to his 
proctologist.

The Sergeant Major was also an excellent character.

> > One thing I did differently was when the pickup plane announced that it was
> > passing us by and did a touch and go on the airfield, I had the recoilless
> > team put a round through it.
> >
> > It blew up good.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> > "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple" -- Oscar Wilde
> >
> >
>
>--
>When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
>--
>Tod L Glenn
>webmaster@travellercentral.com
>http://www.travellercentral.com
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com
>http://www.solsec.org

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
You have to respect the intellectual purity of Bakunin.  Here is
a man who bombed anarchist meetings under the theory that
anarchists shouldn't _have_ meetings.
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 19:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:55:26 -0600
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
References: <ML-2.3.1014232284.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3C73FF2E.C5DCB190@premier.net>



Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> > I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk snail
> > mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my time to dispose
> > of email spam than junk snail mail.
> 
> I probably get 20 messages a day of one sort of spam or another, but it's
> rarely a challenge to deal with it.

One of the best things about the way the (non-digest) TML currently
works is that it adds "[TML]" to the header of all posts.  That way, I
can skim through my e-mail and delete any non-TML e-mail unless I know
the sender.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:07:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:07:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
Message-ID: <200202201507_MC3-F2DF-B2E6@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
> 
This is a bit of topic, but I've heard that responding to the 
"unsubscribe" options in spam messages is a waste of time since they 
take you off of one list, and then put you on others with the 
knowledge that you had actually opened the message and looked at it?<

Does anyone find it ironic that there is more mail ABOUT the Spam than
there is actually Spam? ;P

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:14:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:14:38 +0000
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <F249YILoygXLsxpTljB00017369@hotmail.com>

From: Gonzalez <doctor_romulus@yahoo.com>

     "In the Starfire universe there is a race called the Arachnids. In a 
word, they come, they conquer, they eat sentient species and use them as 
cattle."

Sir,

     There's a Keith adventure in one of the DGP publications revolving 
around a spider-ish race in a system along the trailing edge of the Rift.  
(somwhere twixt Vland and Ilelish, IIRC.)  Thanks to the history they've had 
with the rest of the universe, the Imperium keeps a very big thumb on them.  
Then the Rebellion occurs.
     The species is born paranoid and views all other sentients as a threat 
and/or challenge to surmount.  Oh, they also pay "homage" to their fallen 
opponents by eating their brains.

     "I've often thought would it be like to throw these babies into the 
Traveller Universe just to see what would happen."

     Genocide.  The first Major Race(s) that bump into them would bump them 
off.  The Hivers may toy around with the idea of manipulation, but IIRC the 
Starfire Arachnids used some sort of species-limited ESP for communication 
that defied translation.  The Hivers' manipulation may be just to get 
another Major Race bump them off.
     Setting them down somewhere trailing of the K'Kree and giving them jump 
dive might be nice.  Put them in HUGE STL colony ships that are slowly 
infiltrating K'Kree space.  The first K'Kree worlds contacted are just some 
piddling trade stations, go down quickly, and that gives the Arachnids jump 
drive.  Using their Arachnid-only ESP comms, they send the jump drive specs 
out to their bretheren in all the other colony ships.  That would give the 
K'Kree something to do!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
>http://sports.yahoo.com


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:53:53 +1100
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEKLCCAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020221075353.A19841@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> I'm with Bruce on both of these points.  If I could convert my junk
> snail mail into email spam, I would, because it wastes less of my
> time to dispose of email spam than junk snail mail.

If I got the same amount of junk snail mail as I do junk email, I'd be
actively campaigning to have it outlawed.  I'd never have to buy any
wood for the fire, but what would I do with all the ashes?  I'd
probably have to get my chimney cleaned every month, too.

What junk email loses in annoyance value for being easy to get rid of,
it makes up in sheer volume.


- Tim
(who disposed of nearly 300 pieces of junk email in the last week,
almost as many items as the TML and using far more bandwidth)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:50:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:50:30 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b899bc62754c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:35 PM -0600 2/19/02, JR Holmes wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:30 -0700, Bruce Johnson
><johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>><SNIP>
>>
>>I personally don't understand why people have so damn much problem with
>>spam..some people seem to get into towering frothing rages over
>>sopmething that's as simple as a delete key from vanishing...we toss
>>junk snail mail in the bin without looking, I do the same with junk
>>e-mail, and think no more about it.
>>
>>But if you start blocking communications, you'll forever wonder what you
>>missed.
>
>Unless you start to believe the projections that are being made about
>the expansion of spam over the coming years.  One congressman is
>quoting a study which anticipates that people will be receiving 1400
>spam messages PER DAY!
>
>To me, that projection has the ring of someone doing a linear
>projection of a trend without any further analysis, but I think it is
>safe to say that at some point short of that level spam might destroy
>a great deal of the value of e-mail.
>
>That is the reason that some are advocating requiring at least
>labelling the apam as advertising.

I agree with the last one.  I does nothing to interfer with someone's 
right to "speak" but simply allows someone the right to decide if 
they want to "listen".
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:55:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] SPAM relief
In-Reply-To: <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B897FCEF.26F8A%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <3C72CCDA.2BB00042@sitraka.com> <p04330102b89893a022c4@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3C72F132.9070003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <g2167ughn586jetfund0n83t2vsl5n2eu5@4ax.com>
 <3C73E250.1040500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330103b899bd059bce@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:52 AM -0700 2/20/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>For example, I've had a stable e-mail address for a number of years 
>now (since '92 in fact) and I don't get the level of spam some 
>people complain about, AND I'm on a number of Yahoo groups, 
>regularly post to a half dozen or more public mailing lists, and I 
>get, on average, one to three unsolicited spams a week.

I was in at ballpark until I was in a hurry to find a cheap fare and 
used several of the on-line travel sites.  I'm up to 6 messages a day 
and the rate is increasing.

In addition to requiring all spam be labeled as advertising, I would 
like to see a law that requires a spammer to answer inquires about 
where he got your address (so that those sites that that are selling 
the addresses of their customers can be held accountable).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:06:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:06:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Enterprise Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219181119.00a815e8@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020220210643.71326.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

Harry Mudd was not the Tribble trader.
> That was Cyrano Jones.  One of the most hated men in
> the Klingon Empire.

It was? My memory must be slipping.
Still, my point applies all the same.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 20:59:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:59:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b899be1add54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:21 PM -0500 2/19/02, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of the GURPS
>Character Builder CD?
>
>What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
>Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>

Probably not much interest to me.  I'm using GT and if I have a CT/MT 
NPC all you really need to know, 80%+ of the time, are the skills 
that are easy to translate on the fly.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:34:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:34:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220081959.009f7a50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 08:10 PM 2/20/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >After all, doesn't the term "roleplaying games" make most
> >"normal" people think about consenting adults playing "doctors
> >and nurses" ?
> 
> Sadly, no.
> 
> Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
> like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
> touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

Welcome to the Bay Area poly community.  Now you know why I left it in the
dust.

> We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves,
> when someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a
> dispatcher for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and
> wrote role-playing games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological
> tool for therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea
> that these were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere
> else doing things that are fun!

Wait until you find out how many of them are aggressive anti-military
pacifists, how many of them are "feminist" in the weirdest, worst ways,
and how quick they are to accuse you of being racist, ageist, classist,
"looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
people they find attractive), etc. if you have any kind of standard.

Have fun!

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 21:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:55:42 +1300
Subject: [TML] Question
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEENMCLAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C74D22E.9107.3FEEDB@localhost>

On 20 Feb 2002, at 19:37, Peter Scarrott wrote:

> I would love it, buy it (at a reasonable price f course), and use it a
> lot.
> 
> Note only applies if it includes the CG utilities for MT and TNE :)

Likewise.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:10:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:10:00 -0000
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201330440.8229-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hey ho Kiri,

> "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> people they find attractive), etc.

Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or am
I doing something really wrong here ?

Anyhow, I've never been identified as any form of "-ist" before now, so it's
nice to be finally labelled as something !!

Regards

Andy B




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:16:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:16:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220123515.00b885f0@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3C73CBE7.3906.53FC0@localhost>

Dogs of War is another good movie for borrowing ideas from

and Final Option


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:06:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:06:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220220813.DIXU319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 08:50:10 -0500, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> typed:
>At 10:44 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>>I'd buy it.  And repeatedly urge all of my friends to buy it.  Assuming two
>>things.
>>(1)  You could generate a character with one keystroke
>
>Oh so you want the non-gearhead version of the software. :-)

LOL!

No, I just thought it would be rude to enumerate all the things I really do
want.  This was the most very basic minimum.  I'd prefer to sit down with
the lead developer, any UI guy involved, and the product manager for a
series of meetings to design the product.  Scratch that.  I'd prefer to
**be** the product manager.  That way I'd get the best "gearhead fix".   :->

>
>>(2)  You could save or export the results to a file format that is easily
>>usable by other programs.  Text, word processor, spreadsheet, whatever.
>>But you shouldn't be required to have the GURPS CG software installed to
>>use the output from the software.
>>For instance, one of us could email a
>>file containing 400 characters to someone else on the list who does not
>>have the software.
>
>This is a nice feature but sounds like bad marketing from a SJG point of
view.
>

No, I think compatibility would be good SJG.  Unless you are the 900-pound
gorilla that is Microsoft, compatibility is a marketing advantage.  IMHO,
of course.

>>It would also be nice if it can spit out a printed page of the character in
>>some standard format.

>
>Hmmm...something like a Traveller character sheet?

Yep.  Zackly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:27:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Question
References: <ea.22efe03f.29a44627@aol.com> <3C73DDFA.8040800@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3C73E630.C10D6217@attbi.com> <3C73F03C.8020609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com>

Just a brief header on this religious argument here, I neither 
promote or run down any religion ( OS ( Same Difference )) that I 
haven't had personal experience.

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Runs just fine, on a Mac. With the proper emulation. My only wish
> > is if there where a decent stable Mac emulator for windows. Hell
> > I wish there was a stable Windows / Mac ethernet translator.
> > Dave has a tendancey to be crash happy, and Mac lan sucks up so
> > much resourse space.
> 
> Actually Mac lans do not use more resources, despite what PC-Bigot
> syadmins say. 

MacPc Lan does use up significant resource space on older win 95/98
boxes, newer boxes is not so bad.

> NT 4 sucks as an Appleshare server, but it is a 'tacked
> on' service, and only does classic Appletalk (which Apple had started to
> move away from by the time SFM were put into NT4)

Nt in most of it's flavours has problems at best.
> 
> Win2K does Appletalk over IP which is much faster, and it's much more
> integrated into the OS, in that you simply designate a share as a
> Windows or Mac or both upon creation of the share.

I'll remember that if ever I put up a win2k box.
 
> Dave is not, ime, crash-happy, just slow as molasses. I've run it
> happily on my Powerbook 540 here at work. I get 3-4x faster file
> transfers using Win2k's Mac support over Dave.

I'll note that also, But Dave on 8100/80 running 8.1 will have you
tearing your hair out toot-sweet. The Mac2 is just too primitive to
worry about finding a net cat for it. Thou if it was cheap enough I
would go for it.
 
> As for decent emulation of Windows, I maintain that since Windows is a
> piss-poor emulation of the Mac, the native Mac OS is a vastly better
> Windows emulator than anything else...;-)

Try running 8.1 or any of you 6.1 release soft.... I don't know about
Os ten, but every thing since 7.5.2 has been far more crash happy
then my various windows boxes.

OBTrav:

This is why Vilaini authorities don't allow various programing groups
have events close to each other. There is also threat of a heretic
coming up with a connectivity solution. ( the patent courts would
have a fit of hypoxia over that bit of Vilaini IP law )


-- 
Evyn

Actually, the Pentagon has located a small thermal exhaust cave 
set apart from the main cave network. A direct hit on the 
thermal exhaust cave will trigger a chain-reaction. 
But you didn't hear that from me.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:30:14 -0800
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220144053.00a87258@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <B8996376.27553%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 2/20/02 11:43 AM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
>> Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>> character <grin>.
> 
> Hmm...going for that suspension of disbelief thing there. :-)

OK.  Got me. I'm more the intelligent planner with glasses type.
> 
>> Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
> 
> He wasn't included in the game.

For shame!!

> Great lines though.  He filled out his will leaving everything to his
> proctologist.
> 
> The Sergeant Major was also an excellent character.
> 
Hardy Krueger anyone? Best crossbow scene I can remember (Though I loved the
opening shot in 'Final Option')


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:35:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:35:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
References: <3C73CBE7.3906.53FC0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C7424C8.401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

shadowcat wrote:
> Dogs of War is another good movie for borrowing ideas from
>

I'd agree with you if 'The Wild Geese' weren't such a damn good film of 
the book 'The Dogs of War';-)

The _movie_ 'the Dogs of War' really really sucked, compared to the book...

Besides, by far, more of the camaigns I've run or been in have been a 
lot closer to 'Kelly's Heroes' than any of the previously mentioned films.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:46:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Uses for RPGs (was Re: Covers & Spam)
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220224830.DNXZ319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 08:24:22 -0800, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> typed:
>Several weeks ago I went to a poly event, where most of the people looked 
>like they had entirely missed the last twenty years.  very concerned, in 
>touch with their feelings, I-respect-your-space types.  *shiver*

Hey, being out of fashion should not be a strike against one's character.
I suspect most of us on the TML grew up with exactly that problem because
we were nerds, geeks, or whatever.  Just had to interject this point, but
that's not really what prompted my reply.

>
>We were waiting for everyone to arrive, and talking about ourselves, when 
>someone asked what I do for a living.  I answered that I was a dispatcher 
>for an airport shuttle service (true at the time), and wrote role-playing 
>games on the side.  "Oh, is that a psychological tool for 
>therapy?"  "Educational toys?"  They could *not* get the idea that these 
>were mostly games for adults to pretend to be somewhere else doing things 
>that are fun!

RPGs in education.

A year or so ago, I went to an EverQuest Fan Faire (con of about 1,000
people who were more-or-less avid players of EverQuest).  It was held at a
nice hotel and started on a Friday afternoon.  There was a conference
ending that same Friday of professional educators interested in exploring
future uses of computers in education.  I ended up talking an hour or so
with one of the conference goers.  He's maybe 50 years old and a very
qualified educator first, good computer person second.  He was curious what
all of us weirdos were trickling in for, and I tried to explain it to him.
Turned out his young teenaged son at home plays D&D and he himself is
acquainted with the basics of D&D, as well as computer games like Doom and
very much less so with MUDs.  He's an intelligent and imaginative,
thoughtful person so he seemed to get a pretty good grasp of what a 3D
graphical MUD would be like.  He started looking for the angles where it
would be useful in education.  So we talked about MOOs and such too, which
is a type of MUD invented by educators, specifically for educators and
students.


A MUD is just an RPG played with the rules and the GM all operated by a
computer, and the physical descriptions of the game and the characters
handled by the computer.  The computer uses lots of pregenerated text from
writers who helped design the MUD.  In a graphical MUD, the physical
descriptions are replaced by pregenerated art from artists who helped
design the MUD.  Like pencil n paper RPGs, MUDs vary in quality a great
deal, from crude first attempt by one or two hobbyists to huge corporate
efforts (like EverQuest which required about $4 million in development
money before the public ever saw it).

One of the things the educator and I were both keen on is the use of
graphical MUD technology as an interface for doing other things.  My own
opinion has been for awhile that the interface that will be most familiar
to the Internet-using public will be based on graphical MUDs.  Cyberpunk-,
VR-style stuff.  The educator was intrigued by that but was still looking
for more education-specific and immediate applications.  Well, I wish I
could report on what specific applications he talked about, but my body has
been severely sleep deprived since 1995 and that means my memory is riddled
with holes.  Half of it was too laden with jargon and cutting-edge
education stuff for him to explain in the time we had remaining, anyway.
It sounded interesting, and I thought at the time he had some good ideas
that a gamer probably wouldn't have thought of.  I have to say I was
impressed with how open he was to taking new and woolly ideas seriously,
even coming from some ponytailed guy in jeans and a "Billgatus of Borg" tee
shirt.

RPGs in psychology.

Many of you are probably aware of Philip Jose Farmer's 'World of Tiers'
series of books.  A few years ago, someone wrote PJF a letter telling him
about a psychological treatment center for troubled teens that was using
his books as part of their group therapy.  Each kid had to choose one of
the "Lords" characters from PJF's universe that they thought fitted them
and had to roleplay that character over an extended series of sessions.
(PJF was inspired by this to write another story in the 'World of Tiers'
about what happens to such a kid when they find out it isn't just a
roleplaying game, btw.  :-)

Also, didn't GDW itself start with a bunch of people applying gaming to
education?  Did Traveller or even En Garde ever get used for educational
purposes?  (I consider En Garde to be either an RPG or a proto-RPG, so I
include it in this discussion.)  Many of us have had other wargames used in
educational settings, but I'm only regarding roleplaying games, here.

RPGs in the military or is it education again.

And of course, institutions of higher learning in the military world take
roleplaying games very seriously.  Generals and admirals at the National
War College, RAND Corp., and various similar places take many courses that
consist almost entirely of each student playing the role of a different
nations' top leaders and are confronted with some crisis situation.  This
has been going on for decades, at least.

--Laning
"As long as I can remember, I've had amnesia."
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] Space Nasties
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8E9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>In the Starfire universe there is a race called the
Arachnids. In a word, they come, they conquer, they
eat sentient species and use them as cattle. 

I've often thought would it be like to throw these
babies into the Traveller Universe just to see what
would happen.
<

FWIW, I've changed the K'k'ree into an instect-like race so I could have
Starship Trooper like adventures along these lines. 

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dark Star is out on DVD
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8EC@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:tml@travellercentral.com
>
Also out, The Starship Troopers Roughnecks CGI episodes.<

Very awesome show! For some reason, I couldn't find anyone intersted in a
Traveller campaign based on this! 

Also, has anyone ever seen deckplans for the Dark Star?

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 22:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Taylor)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] starport bars?
Message-ID: <200202201752_MC3-F2C4-E8ED@compuserve.com>

I know there have been a couple of articles describing Starport Bars and
Taverns, but I can't seem to find any of them.

anyone remember where these are?
thanks!

Michael 
0602 tm+ ru-- ge 3i-- c- jt+ au ls-- pi+ ta+ he++ kk hi+ as- va- dr- vr-
ne-- so zh- vi+ da+ sy--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:01:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:01:50 -0600
Subject: [TML] Eneri's Heroes
In-Reply-To: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>

hmm...
easily done for a striker scenario...

3 Intrepids and supporting troops, call it a platoon
bank full of Iridium or platinum



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:09:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Laning)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:09:01 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <20020220231113.DVJM319.dorsey@link>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 10:16:09 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
>
>Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
>character <grin>. 
>
>Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
>

I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory, but yeah that was a good
character.  I'd probably take that part.  Most memorable bit in the whole
flick for me was when Roger Moore pulled a grenade out of one pocket of his
suit coat.  He'd pulled an auto pistol out of the other pocket earlier.
Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

The movie wasn't really that well done, but it was okay.  I'm trying to
remember, wasn't it just a bad film version of a Frederick Forsythe novel?
Whatever the answer to my question, if you really want good inspirations
for Traveller adventures, go to Frederick Forsythe.  'Day of the Jackal'
doesn't adapt all that well to most Traveller groups since it is basically
about a lone assassin, but 'The Dogs of War' (great mercenary adventure) is
a classic.  Classic.  Forsythe's research for 'The Dogs of War' was so good
that the British Parliament wanted to ask him some very pointed questions.
Because the book was a barely fictionalized account of what had actually
happened.

Right now, my character in Tod's game has been identifying with the
protagonist in 'Day of the Jackal' quite a bit.  Except my guy got picked
on first and is merely retaliating.  :->

--Laning
Trying to think of a good line from 'Psycho Killer' by The Talking Heads
tc+ mt++ tn-- t4 tg ru++@ ge+ 3i++(-) c++ -jt+ au st+ ls pi@ ta+@ he-(+) kk
hi- as++ va dr- so zh vi- da sy+


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:09:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Question
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1014246577.0.52763300@www.springmail.com>

GDWGames@aol.com wrote:
> What would be the reaction if we were to do a special version of
> the GURPS
> Character Builder CD?
>
> What if we were to include CG utilities for CT, MT, T4 and TNE?
>
> Conversion utilities to translate characters from one ot the other?
>
> Just thinking "out loud" . . . :   )
>

I'd pay ~$20 for something like this if it:

1) supports all official versions of Traveller to date (CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20*), including conversions.
*(if allowed under the OGL, which I suspect it may not be)

2) allows printout onto standard character sheets, detailed printouts showing every die-roll/decision (survival, promotion, aging, etc.), and short-form '1001 Characters'-style listings for masses of spear-carriers.

3) includes char-gen for each of the Major Races (for CT and GT, not necessarily for those versions that never had it to start with)

4) is expandable/customizable so that, for instance, I could add new careers/templates and/or alter entries on the skill-receipt tables

If it doesn't include 3 and/or 4 I'd likely still buy it (depending mostly on its pricetag), but 1 and 2 are absolutely essential.

Trent


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:12:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <007301c1ba64$221b3970$9307b286@Shane>

Andy reckons:
> Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the
desperate,
> and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
> and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful
person
> they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
> people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? Or
am
> I doing something really wrong here ?

According to Socrates, we should look for affirmation not in what is
*normal*, but what is *reasonable*.  Sometimes they're the same thing,
sometimes they're not.  In this case, however, my call has to go with Andy
(and the masses at large).  To be attracted or not attracted to someone
sexually isn't something we have any real measure of control over.  Sorry,
but if she or he just doesn't do it for me, my beast ain't gonna co-operate.
Nothing personal.  I think what these "looksist" accusers (and let's be
honest - these are likely very ugly people) are complaining about is people
who are untactful about their discrimination.

> Anyhow, I've never been identified as any form of "-ist" before now, so
it's
> nice to be finally labelled as something !!

I think your best response to such accusations is, "I'm sorry, I prefer the
term 'whining-prat-ist'." :)

ObTrav:  Kinda Bill Burroughs in derivation but... Wacky theocracy obsessed
with the sanctity of genetic "uniqueness".  Breeding rights are handed out
selectively, with preference going to the more deformed, asymmetric and
otherwise "special" members of the species.  Sacred degeneration.  The
mutated are celebrated for their beauty, and the insane for their wisdom...
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Tuppence to see the Freak!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:30:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:30:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Waaay Off Topic : Looksist People
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEBMDLAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10202201518280.24518-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Andy Brick wrote:

> Hey ho Kiri,
> 
> > "looksist" (a pejorative term for people who will only have sex with
> > people they find attractive), etc.
> 
> Excuse me for stating the obvious, but other than the blind, the desperate,
> and those unfortunates who wake up in the morning with a blinding headache
> and find themselves next to something completely unlike the beautiful person
> they met the night before at *that* party, isn't it perfectly normal for
> people to have sex with people that they find (visually) attractive ? 

One would think so, but there are people who consider this "oppression of
ugly (or should I say 'attractiveness-challenged') people".   Don't worry,
I'm a looksist, too.

In the local poly community, there are several individuals who regard me
as a horrible racist (because I am suspicious, based on past experience,
of white guys who have a 'thing' for Asian/Amerasian women-- ESPECIALLY
the uber-liberal goofballs who refuse to speak proper Japanese because
they think it's demeaning, and in general prefer Asian men, although those
who know about my Tyr Anasazi crush know it's not necessarily exclusive of
non-Asians), a horrible ageist (because most of my boyfriends are younger
than me and I refuse to date any man who reminds me of my father), and a
vicious looksist (because all my boyfriends have been relatively
good-looking). I am also considered something of a sexist because even
though I'm bi, I don't generally have the same kinds of relationships with
women that I do with men.

Yes, indeedy deed, PC has begun to eat itself.   (Or rather, there's a new
switch on, "you're a b*tch if you won't sleep with me.)

I had a local individual tell me he found me horrifying because I did not
base my sexual/romantic relationships wholly and solely on "intellectual
compatibility" and try to erase the person's race, culture, religion and
appearance from my mind when evaluating them for a romance.  Which he
considered the only ethical stance.

Never mind the fact that race, culture and religion may have a lot to do
with the types of interactions that I am likely to have with this person,
or even if we can sit down and eat a meal together (I can't imagine dating
an Orthodox Jew or a vegan and not having problems with this).  

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:26:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Dark Star is out on DVD
In-Reply-To: <20020220231113.DVJM319.dorsey@link>
References: <200202202050.g1KKoaJ22351@rhylanor.cordite.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020220182421.00ad4eb0@urbin.net>

At 06:09 PM 2/20/2002 -0500, Laning wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 at 10:16:09 -0800, Tod Glenn
><webmaster@travellercentral.com> typed:
> >Well then, I guess I'd have to opt for the womanizing, handsome Roger Moore
> >character <grin>.
> >Anyone up for 'Witty' the gay medic?  Excellent lines.
>
>I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory, but yeah that was a good
>character.  I'd probably take that part.  Most memorable bit in the whole
>flick for me was when Roger Moore pulled a grenade out of one pocket of his
>suit coat.  He'd pulled an auto pistol out of the other pocket earlier.
>Someone (probably Richard Burton) raised an eyebrow in surprise that Roger
>was walking around town with not just a pistol but a **grenade** on him.
>Roger Moore just gives an innocent shrug and says, "For balance."

That was actually Richard Harris' character.  It was the scene in London 
where they were fighting off London mobsters out to kill Moore's character.

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:32:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] Eneri's Heroes
In-Reply-To: <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>; from res053z0@gte.net on Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 05:01:50PM -0600
References: <3C7422BC.65182985@attbi.com> <3C73D67E.22502.2E9CFE@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020220183205.A21183@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 05:01:50PM -0600, shadowcat wrote:
> hmm...
> easily done for a striker scenario...
> 
> 3 Intrepids and supporting troops, call it a platoon
> bank full of Iridium or platinum
> 
And on the other side, a Vargr leading the strategic reserve armor force...

yours,
Michael

-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Feb 20 23:47:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Thyme)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:47:43 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEAAHGAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <003e01c1ba69$3ca715c0$d412530c@default>

Wash your keyboard out with soap!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:10 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Covers & Spam


> 
> Loren wrote :
> > Anyone who thinks they might want to instant message
> > gdwgames@aol.com on the AOL please e-mail me first.
> > I've been increasingly besieged by instant
> > messages from people with names like "kellygurl 22374"
> > and "Hot4U 338917" so I am blocking all but a restricted
> > list. If you want on it, explain to me why
> > in 25 words or less.
> 
> Perhaps it's because "gdwgames" 

